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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 18 Apr 2024

Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth

Mr. Kevin McCarthy (Secretary General, Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth) called and examined.

No apologies have been received. Our witnesses are all very welcome. I remind all those who are in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off.

I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references the witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. This means that witnesses have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure it is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee. He is accompanied by Mr. John Crean, deputy director at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

This morning, we will be engaging with officials from the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth to examine the appropriation accounts for 2022, specifically Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth; international protection accommodation services; and the funding and staffing of Tusla, which has also been flagged. We are joined by the following officials from the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth: Mr. Kevin McCarthy, Secretary General, Mr. David Delaney, assistant secretary, Ms Sheenagh Rooney, assistant secretary, Mr. Colm Ó Conaill, assistant secretary, Dr. Anne-Marie Brooks, assistant secretary, and Ms Laura McGarrigle, assistant secretary. We are joined by the following officials from the relevant Vote section of the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform: Ms Jessica Lawless, principal officer, and Mr. Adrian Hurley, assistant principal. They are all very welcome.

I invite the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, to make his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The 2022 appropriation account for Vote 40 records gross expenditure of €2.7 billion. This was up 50% on the 2021 gross expenditure of €1.8 billion. The expenditure was distributed across five output programmes that provide a broad range of services to meet the needs of children and vulnerable persons in society.

Programme A provides for children and family support. Gross expenditure of €949 million was incurred, representing just over one third of the total Vote spent in 2022. The grant to Tusla, amounting to €916 million, represents the bulk of the spending on the programme. Programme B comprises funding for a wide range of schemes and programmes to benefit children and young people at a combined cost of €825 million in 2022. This area of spending has increased rapidly in recent years. Most of the schemes funded under the programme are administered by Pobal, acting as an agent on behalf of the Department.

Expenditure of €893 million was charged in 2022 to programme E, which funds the provision of support for international protection seekers. This was more than four times the 2021 expenditure of €200 million, reflecting the impacts of accommodating refugees from the war in Ukraine and the post-Covid surge in the number of persons seeking international protection. The remaining two Vote programmes are on a much smaller scale. One supports a range of equality initiatives, while the other caters for policy development and legislation within the Department's remit. The surplus remaining unspent and due for surrender at the end of 2022 was €86.7 million.

A clear audit opinion was issued in relation to the appropriation account. However, I drew attention to the disclosure by the Accounting Officer in the statement on the internal financial control in relation to non-compliance with procurement rules. This was mainly in relation to contracts put in place for the provision of accommodation to international protection seekers. I also drew attention to the Accounting Officer’s disclosure in the statement on internal financial control about the pressures faced by his Department mainly as a result of the war in Ukraine and some of the effects this had on the operation of the normal control systems. While the Department’s staffing increased from 486 whole-time equivalents at the end of 2021 to more than 600 whole-time equivalents at the end of 2022, this was not enough or fast enough to prevent the build-up of invoices and occasional payment errors. For example, overpayments to suppliers totalling €1.85 million were identified in three cases, but all of this was subsequently recovered. At the year-end, almost €55 million due for payment to suppliers remained unpaid and should have been a charge in 2022. Late payment interest and compensation costs incurred by the Department in 2022 amounted to €247,000.

The pressures on the Department and its systems of control continued into 2023. As I previously informed the committee, I am currently examining the operation of the Department's controls over the contracting of accommodation providers in the context of the audit of the 2023 appropriation account, and I expect a report on that in September.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy has five minutes for his opening statement.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I thank the committee for the invitation to assist in its examination of the 2022 appropriation account for the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. I am accompanied by my colleagues, Dr. Anne-Marie Brooks, Ms Sheenagh Rooney, Mr. Colm Ó Conaill, Mr. David Delaney and Ms Laura McGarrigle, assistant secretaries. I am also supported by Mr. Andrew Patterson, Ms Janice Witcombe, and Mr. Gordon Gaffney, principal officers, and Ms Maria Ronayne and Ms Mary-Louise Molloy, professional accountants.

In my opening statement, I will give a very brief overview of the main features of the Vote. We provided the committee with a briefing note in advance of the meeting which sets out further details of expenditure and activity in 2022. The Department has five programme areas encompassing responsibility for child protection and welfare; prevention and early intervention; adoption, family supports, early learning and childcare; youth services and youth justice; as well as the areas of equality, integration, international protection and disability policy.

When the war in Ukraine began in February 2022, the Department was tasked with leading on the provision of emergency short-term accommodation for Ukrainian beneficiaries of temporary protection as part of the Government's humanitarian crisis response. The 2022 account predates the completion of the transfer of functions for community-based specialists and disability services from the Department of Health in March 2023. The total provision for the Vote in 2022 was €2.8 billion, which included capital carry-over of €3.2 million. The current expenditure allocation is €2.75 billion with a further €71.2 million allocated for capital expenditure, including carry-over. The net allocation for the Vote was €2.78 billion on appropriations when aid of €34.6 million is taken into account. This comprised an original allocation of €2.06 billion, a deferred surrender of €3.2 million and a Supplementary Estimate of €719.4 million.

The final outturn for the Vote in 2022 was €2.69 billion, with a surrender at year end of €86.7 million. The year 2022 saw progress on a number of important policy and legislative milestones for the Department, including the introduction of the new funding model for early learning and childcare and the commencement of year one of core funding under the new model. This enjoyed participation rates of 95% and created the conditions for a fee freeze among services. It also provided for historic employment regulation orders that set minimum rates of pay, with more than 70% of staff in the sector benefiting from improvements in pay. Two new childcare scheme reforms were introduced, with the discontinuation of the practice of deducting hours spent in preschool or school from the entitlement to national childcare scheme subsidised hours, and the extension of the age of eligibility to 15 years to access the universal subsidy. The measures resulted in an increase in the number of registrations from circa 30,000 at the start of 2022 to 98,000 by the year end. Under the action plan for survivors of mother and baby institutions, 2022 also saw the enactment of the Birth Information and Tracing Act, landmark legislation that provides guaranteed access to birth and early-life information where it exists. Since the scheme launched in October 2022, there have been more than 12,500 applications for birth information with 97%, or almost 12,150 cases, complete. The Institutional Burials Act 2022 was also developed, enacted and commenced.

As the committee is aware, the outbreak of the war in Ukraine resulted in significant operational challenges for the Department in 2022. Since February 2022, more than 106,000 people have sought temporary protection in Ireland, more than 79% of whom have sought supported accommodation through this Department. This was the largest mobilisation of humanitarian support in the history of the State and required a large-scale emergency response to be stepped up in 2022 to meet the daily demand that materialised for shelter. The response involved contracting and activating emergency accommodation across hotels, bed and breakfasts, guesthouses and hostels, self-catering accommodation, repurposed and refurbished buildings, sports centres and arenas, scouting facilities, properties offered by religious and voluntary bodies, student accommodation, military facilities, temporary tented facilities and local authority emergency rest centres, as well as pledged accommodation in people’s homes or second properties. By year end 2022, slightly less than 70,000 beneficiaries of temporary protection had arrived in Ireland, just above 54,000 of whom required State-supported accommodation. We are grateful to the communities across Ireland who gave their wholehearted support to this national effort. The response had a major impact on the work of the Department in 2022, with a need for organisational structures, processes and staff to be rapidly adapted, developed and deployed to support the effort. There was no provision for Ukraine spending in the original 2022 Estimate for the Vote. A Supplementary Estimate in late 2022 was provided to meet the costs incurred.

In 2022 there was also a substantial increase in the number of new arrivals seeking international protection accommodation in Ireland with just above 13,600 new arrivals seeking protection from the State. Between 2017 and 2019 an average of 3,500 people had applied for protection each year, or an average of 67 people per week. As the committee is aware, international protection arrival numbers remain significantly elevated since 2022 and are more recently on a further significant upward trajectory. In 2023, more than 13,000 people arrived in Ireland seeking protection, averaging 250 people per week - 12,000 of those sought accommodation from the State. In the first 12 weeks of 2024, more than 5,100 people claimed international protection compared with 2,900 people for the same period in 2023. An increase of more than 75% in arrival numbers. Procuring enough bed space to keep pace with incoming arrivals remains extremely challenging. This is particularly so in the case of accommodation for single males. In December 2023, despite intensive efforts to source emergency accommodation, the Department could no longer provide accommodation to all international protection applicants. A system of triage of adult males is in place to ensure that those who are most vulnerable are prioritised, and applicants who are not provided with accommodation receive a temporary increase to their daily expense allowance. Due to the scale of arrivals and the urgency of need, it inevitably means that available emergency accommodation for those seeking refuge must also be occupied on a faster timeline than would otherwise be the case.

The Department is committed to working with elected representatives, local authorities and local communities to ensure that local dialogue is fact-based and to counter misinformation that has been used in some instances to generate fear and resistance when new accommodation centres are proposed. A community engagement team, based in the Department and supported by the Department of the Taoiseach, was established in October last year to manage direct engagement with elected representatives, relevant local authorities, local development companies and other entities and individuals to provide accurate information and to assist with the welcome and integration process for new arrivals. The Department is pursuing all possible accommodation options to provide shelter and prevent homelessness. There are currently 492 people accommodated in tented solutions in three locations - Knockalisheen, County Clare; Columb Barracks, County Westmeath; and the former Central Mental Hospital in County Dublin. Recognising the scale of the challenges, a new comprehensive accommodation strategy for international protection applicants was recently agreed by Government, setting out a revised implementation approach to previously planned reforms. The aim is to move away from full reliance on private providers and towards a core of State-owned accommodation, delivering 14,000 State-owned beds by 2028. This will be supplemented, as required, by high standard commercial providers. The strategy seeks to address the current accommodation shortfall while reforming the system over the longer term to ensure the State can meet its international commitments on a more sustainable basis. Given the current pressures, a reliance on private and commercial providers will continue into the short and medium term. A revised approach to accommodation policy for Ukrainian beneficiaries of temporary protection has also been agreed by Government to more closely align Ireland’s offering on this front with supports in other EU member states. From 14 March 2024, anyone who registers for temporary protection and is looking for State-provided accommodation in Ireland is now offered accommodation for a maximum of 90 days in designated accommodation centres.

I thank all of my colleagues in the Department and our various partner organisations for the enormous contributions they have made in delivering on so many of our objectives during 2022 and since, in the face of unprecedented challenges. I thank the Chair and the committee and look forward to taking their questions.

I welcome all of the witnesses this morning. It is no secret that this is a complex area of work being done by the Government. It is controversial and public frustration is growing almost monthly. It is clear from polling that the public is extraordinarily concerned about what is going on with this Department, in particular around integration. It is important that we put questions to the witnesses this morning. My first question is on the 2022 expenditure on combating disinformation. Why did the Secretary General's Department not put more emphasis on spending in this area to effectively inform the public about what was going on? I know and accept this was a new challenge for the Department, in particular at the start when there was a sharp increase in migration due to the conflict in Ukraine in particular. This was a new challenge for the Department. Given where we are now why was that provision not made? Was it discussed? Is it something Mr.. McCarthy accepts is now at a tipping point where we have arson attacks on IPA centres, where incredibly unsavoury protests are taking place in many locations, which have put An Garda Síochána and local services under huge pressure? We have reached a point where this is bordering on a crisis. I start with that question. Were did it all go wrong?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I will take the last part of the question about where it all went wrong. It is important to say we have provided accommodation for 100,000 people on both the international protection and Ukraine side since the beginning of 2022. That has been a considerable success in meeting the objectives the Government set out to deliver on in responding, first, to a humanitarian crisis in Ukraine which was not foreseen and came upon us in a sudden way.

It materialised in a very unpredictable way and obviously created an enormous, unprecedented amount of accommodation demand in the system. It was an unfortunate confluence in the sense that we began to see considerable growth in international protection numbers over the same period.

As I referred to in my opening statement, we have put our community engagement on a different footing. We did so late last year with the establishment of the community engagement team. That was out of recognition of the pressure that has been building in local communities and the level of resistance we have been seeing in them. In part, it is a response to what people on the ground have been seeing in terms of pressure on services and so on at local level. We absolutely recognise that. It would not be possible to accommodate at the scale at which we have accommodated without putting that kind of pressure on communities and services around the country. We absolutely recognise that. We recognise that this has been challenging for communities.

I want to focus on budgeting to combat disinformation, in particular. Is that something Mr. McCarthy considered in 2022? Did the Department discuss the fact that, no matter where you go internationally, migration is an incredibly divisive topic? It needs to be managed carefully and it attracts everything from foreign interference to strong resistance. There is an onus on the agencies and Departments that have responsibility. The ball is in Mr. McCarthy's court in respect of dealing with this. What is going on online today as a consequence of decisions we are making and that the Department is analysing is a major concern. It is of nationwide concern. Mr. McCarthy spoke of public support but I do not see it, to be quite frank with him. When I speak to my constituents in a town like Youghal, they say that almost 1,000 people were brought into a town of around 8,500 people. Mr. McCarthy spoke of consultation with public representatives but the Department did not consult me or my Oireachtas colleagues when the closed-door negotiations were going on with private firms regarding what were incredibly lucrative contracts. The ramifications for the communities have to be taken into consideration, as do the economic effects. When I speak to constituents, I note the perception is that people are receiving an awful lot more than they are, by way of housing and other things. These are the matters that deeply concern me because so much of the information circulating and what the public sees online and elsewhere is factually incorrect. I put that to the Department. I opened with a question on combating disinformation. What did the Department do in 2022 to put provisions aside to analyse this issue? Did Mr. McCarthy raise with the Minister the idea that we really needed a concrete plan if what was proposed was what we were to do?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Disinformation was not a major issue for us in 2022 to the extent that it has become one since. Our experience in 2022 was that there was considerable community support for new Ukrainian communities or arrivals from Ukraine right across the country. We began to see resistance at a much later stage, and some of the resistance we have seen on the BOTP side materialised at a much later stage, but it is at quite a low level by comparison with the resistance we have seen on the international protection side. I would make that distinction regarding our experience of community resistance. It has been more pronounced in respect of international protection accommodation openings and probably began to materialise as a real issue for us over the course of 2023.

On the Deputy's question on specific spending on disinformation, that was not our priority in 2022, to be quite frank about it. Our priority in 2022 was to try to stay ahead of the numbers arriving each day. There were 80,000 Ukrainians by the year's end, if I remember the figure correctly. It was a considerable crisis response to an immediate challenge, and that was the focus. There has been-----

When it came to the identification of locations nationwide, whereby hotels and disused premises were purchased by the Department for accommodation for Ukrainians, how did the Department establish the basis for payment under the contracts? Was it determined that payment would be per head, per family or per room? What were the figures? Could Mr. McCarthy walk us through them, please?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

We would have had a standard pricing range in respect of serviced or self-catering accommodation that would have informed our negotiations with individual providers or our agreements around contracts with individual providers. I know it is not what the Deputy is implying but we did not purchase hotels in 2022. However, we obviously purchased services from providers over the course of 2022.

There were a number of hotels. I know the Department did not purchase them but that is not how the model worked. I am speaking about the IPAS centre operators. Properties in my constituency that had been sold in the preceding decade for under €1 million were sold for over €4 million or €5 million for the purpose in question. The business model for the operators is so lucrative that the taking of such decisions can be afforded. I want a little insight from Mr. McCarthy on how the Department devised the system for payment. How did it make the decision? I have already asked Mr. McCarthy to walk us through how a 100-bed hotel is allocated for use by immigration services. How does the operator make a profit? How does it operate financially?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

There would be a daily rate per adult and child.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I am happy to share that information with the committee on a confidential basis but the Deputy will appreciate that, for negotiation purposes, I do not want to circulate our rate.

Given the scale of the situation, a confidential basis is no longer acceptable to the public. The lack of honesty in providing the information to the public is part of the problem. I come from a constituency in which huge centres are operating. The lack of information – the chasm that has been established – is not helping. I am aware that each person here has his or her own philosophy and views, but as somebody who represents the people of Cork East, where the centres have been operating for some time, with Red Barn being one of the biggest in the country, I want to know on my constituents' behalf what is going on.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

We have shared that information with the committee-----

Just answer the question.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

-----but we have asked that it not be published.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

For reasons of commercial sensitivity. Obviously, we do not want to distort the market, in which people are offering accommodation to us. If we circulate our rates up front, it distorts the market.

Is there a differentiator? This is a question that has been raised with me multiple times by people in my constituency. At some centres, we have seen a reduction in demand for Ukrainian accommodation and a replacement in some areas of the country whereby IPAS migrants are coming in through different processes and being offered accommodation by the State. Is there a difference between the rate pertaining to those not coming from the Ukraine conflict and that pertaining to those who are?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

In the rate we pay?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

No. We would use the same standard pricing models. To go back to the Deputy's original question, how we determined what we were prepared to pay would have been based on experience on the international protection front in terms of standard rates of payment, standard room rates, and so on. That would have dictated what we saw as an appropriate scale. Broadly, the answer is "No".

Mr. McCarthy has clarified one aspect of the disinformation circulating. Could he explain to me why, at a number of centres around the country, so much relocation of people is ongoing? I will give him an example although I do not want to be too specific. Within a certain town, the case of a number of people who had settled into the community with their children and who had begun working was raised with me. All of a sudden, the people were told they might be relocated to other counties. Is the Department aware of how concerning this is for them? We talk here about community buy-in.

How much can it corrode community buy-in when you remove people from a community they have integrated in and where their children attend local schools, pulling them out and replacing them with new people coming into the community? That is another major question that is coming up for me in my local area and it is hard to get answers to it.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

The Deputy raised an important question. Regarding the bigger picture, we are seeing reductions in the overall numbers of beneficiaries of temporary protection who require accommodation from the State. Those numbers have come down considerably since November and the arrival numbers have come down considerably since the start of this year. The next phase for us, which have now entered into, is around trying to consolidate and reduce our accommodation portfolio in respect of beneficiaries of temporary protection. All the accommodation those people have been offered is on a temporary basis and it is made clear to them from the outset that it is temporary accommodation in the context of a crisis response. While we recognise it can be difficult for people when they are asked to move, it is necessary and will be increasingly necessary for us.

Mr. McCarthy said something interesting. Does he feel there is a catalyst in that because there may be a financial benefit for owners of centres with huge numbers of Ukrainian families to replace them, quite frankly, with families coming in through the asylum process or other relocation methods?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

All I am saying is that we will and are exiting contracts on the Ukraine front.

Is the Department analysing the communities that were most impacted by such decisions?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Yes.

Some 65% to 70% of hotel bed capacity in Youghal was wiped out. The financial impact on that town has been detrimental. I see it on Main Street. I know I am using a parochial example. We are not alone but we are one of the worst impacted in the country. The Department’s modus operandi for the next number of months should be around the reduction in tensions within communities. From my perspective, it has been badly handled by the Minister and the Department. Given insight to what happened in 2022, it is understandable to how we have arrived at this point, and it is regrettable.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Regarding decisions on what contracts we exit and in what order we exit a contract, it will take account of value-for-money considerations as well as the sort of factors the Deputy identified, such as numbers in a particular community. We are encouraging beneficiaries of temporary protection to look to more independent futures personally and support them in that. For example, the refurbishment programme and the modular housing programme create avenues for that greater independence to be facilitated. We recognise not just the impact on particular communities that have taken in large numbers of people but also - people have talked about it before at this committee – for example, the impact on tourism economies and so on of significant numbers of serviced accommodation beds and hotel beds being taken up for Ukrainian accommodation purposes. Our intention is to try to consolidate our accommodation stock on the Ukrainian side. We hope some of those providers will pivot towards international protection, where we have a need, but that is a matter for providers themselves.

I am sure Mr. McCarthy is aware of the Leave Our Leave campaign by the Irish Cancer Society, which concerns women who are diagnosed with cancer during their pregnancy and have to forfeit their maternity leave. The Irish Cancer Society is running a campaign to have this changed. Last October, the Minister gave a commitment to amend the legislation to rectify that. They cannot defer their maternity leave, unlike men, who can defer their paternity leave. Last October, the Minister gave a commitment to rectify it and amend the legislation. Has that started? Has the Minister instructed the Department to work on that amendment or legislation, and where is it?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I need to check to where that specific commitment lies. There have been significant improvements in paternity and maternity leave provisions.

This is a particular issue and a campaign is ongoing by the Irish Cancer Society. Is Mr. McCarthy, as Secretary General, not aware whether he Minister has given instructions to his Department to amend the legislation, given that he gave a commitment last October to do so?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I am not aware of specific conversations the Deputy may have had on that commitment.

Would anyone in the Department be aware? Who would the Minister have notified about amending that legislation to rectify this injustice?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

It would be the relevant officials in our equality division who would be-----

There is nobody today from-----

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

No, not today.

Can Mr. McCarthy find out before the break and come back-----

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Yes. We will see where that is.

-----and give the committee clarification on where it is? I do not think the heads of Bill have come before Cabinet. Has the amendment been started or where is it? Will it come in the next couple of months or has nothing been done on it whatsoever?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

It is not on the summer priority list but I will establish what the current position is.

Thank you. Regarding IPAS costs, Mr. McCarthy said there was a standard price range and there is a daily rate per adult and per child. Is there a difference in cost between private emergency accommodation and State-run IPAS centres?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

In terms of State-owned centres-----

I ask about the cost. Would State-run centres be cheaper than private accommodation?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Not hugely cheaper, to be honest. As the Deputy knows, the State-run centres account for a very small proportion of our overall accommodation portfolio – it is about 4%.

Can Mr. McCarthy give me a example of a well-run State-run centre?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

The two State-owned centres that are probably best known are in Athlone and Knockalisheen. We can look at the unit cost per person in a State-owned centre versus a commercial one.

Surely Mr. McCarthy would know whether or not private accommodation is more expensive than State-run at this stage, two years on.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

What I will say is that there is certainly a huge value-for-money case for State-owned over time.

We can take from that that it is cheaper to have State-run than private accommodation.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Yes, we have looked at it.

So commercial is more expensive, is that what Mr. McCarthy is saying?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Yes. Over time, it is more expensive. We looked at the value-for-money proposition of State-owned accommodation over, say, a ten- or five-year period. There is significant payback within that period of time in having State-owned accommodation versus relying on commercial.

That goes without saying. That is pretty obvious, and particularly over a long period of time. The fact is that it was not done. I know it was emergency-----

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

However, the savings will not necessarily materialise in year one, two or three.

Can Mr. McCarthy provide figures for the costs? Can he give an example of a comparison between a public State-run centre and a private one?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

We will look at what comparative data is available on that, if that is okay.

Can Mr. McCarthy have that for the break please?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

We will do our best.

The private-run centres are not subject to independent inspection, are they? Am I wrong in saying that?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Yes, they are. All designated centres are subject to the HIQA inspection process on the international protection side.

How about hotels, for example?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Emergency accommodation does not come under the auspices of the HIQA regulation but we have our own inspection regime in respect of those.

Am I right in saying there are 225 emergency IPAS centres?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

That sounds right. Yes, it would be of that number.

That would include more than 4,500 children.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Yes, that is probably right.

There were only 30 inspections carried out by the Department in 2023 and none so far this year. Am I right in saying that?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

We have just concluded a new RFT for an inspections contract. We have placed that contract now, so we will be scaling up on our inspections activity.

A couple of minutes ago before I gave him those stats Mr. McCarthy said that the Department carries out inspections. However, he did not say they carry out the most minimal inspections - 30.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I am not sure where the figure of 30 is coming from. The figures I have here are in 2022 there were 152 inspections and 105 inspections in 2023.

I have the figure of 30 inspections. I will double check Mr. McCarthy's figure, but even at that-----

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I do not know where the 30 comes from but we can rectify it.

Even at that, 105 is less than 50%, despite the fact that more than 4,500 children are being accommodated.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Aside from inspections, there would be visits from IPAS resident welfare teams and IPAS management. There is quite a bit of interaction with them. We run clinics with residents in accommodation centres. There were 133 clinics in 2023 and 59 so far this year. Those clinics provide a facility for residents to engage directly with IPAS management on any issues-----

Yes, but that is not the same as inspections.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

It is not the same as inspections but it does mean that there is continual interaction, and issues are identified and are addressed, by and large.

With regard to the same standards not applying to emergency accommodation, we have heard reports that some of these centres are staffed entirely by security staff. Is that true?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I am not sure what the classification of "security staff" is, but that would not be true. There would be facilities management services in each of these centres and clearly there would be security staff as part of that but I do not know where the suggestion that they are entirely staffed by security staff came from.

As Secretary General, Mr. McCarthy is not aware of any centre being run by a team of security staff. Is that correct?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I am not aware of any but I would be happy to receive any information the Deputy has in that regard. I am not aware of that.

Let us take the example of the D Hotel in my town of Drogheda. In his opening statement, Mr. McCarthy made reference to the community engagement team but there was literally no engagement in that instance. The main hotel in the centre of the town was just taken over. There was a thorough lack of engagement. What galled me was the fact that the phone was not even picked up. There was no discussion with local representatives about the fact that there was an offer for the hotel and no questions were asked about the effect taking over the hotel would have on tourism and business in Drogheda. We received no such call and were never asked that question. The contract was signed and the deed was done. That absolutely contradicts the principle of community engagement. We could have been asked about the effect it would have on the town, particularly as the Westcourt Hotel had already been taken over. The D Hotel was the biggest hotel in the town and it is now gone. Through its lack of engagement, the Department created a situation in Drogheda that could have been very volatile and that we had to try to manage. We had to clean up the mess. Mr. McCarthy's opening statement refers to the community engagement team but they would want to smarten up their act. The next time the Department goes into a town and plans to take over the main facilities, I suggest that it does some proper engagement and asks what the effect of such a takeover would be on the town itself. It just does not help; it creates a situation that was not there previously. Mr. McCarthy knows exactly what I am talking about.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I absolutely understand the point the Deputy is making. Obviously, we do seek to understand the impact on communities of particular-----

The Department does not seem to learn from it, though. That is my point.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

The community engagement team's focus is on sharing information with public representatives and communities, as opposed to engagement in the sense of consultation. To be fair to the community engagement team-----

Community engagement team is the wrong title then because we got a phone call to tell us that the deed was done, like it or lump it. That is exactly what happened.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I know the Deputy's views on that and the views that were expressed by the community in Drogheda on that particular instance. What I would say is that if we had not procured the D Hotel in Drogheda, we would have found ourselves in a position over recent weeks of not being able to offer accommodation to families coming in, including women and children.

I know. I am just taking exception to the term "community engagement" and telling Mr. McCarthy that there was no engagement. Had there been engagement, it could have prevented a situation from arising. We had to manage that situation because of the lack of engagement.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I appreciate that. We do appreciate the pressure it places on public representatives in those situations. We are trying to balance public interests here, in terms of the kinds of impacts the Deputy is describing and the kind of impact I am describing, where we are not in a position to offer accommodation to women and children.

I thank Mr. McCarthy. I have asked for four or five sets of figures. Could we get those before the break?

Mr. David Delaney

Yes.

First, I want to take the opportunity, which other members have not taken as yet, to acknowledge the scale of the challenge that the Department has faced, particularly since 2022. There has been an unprecedented influx of people, which, as Mr. McCarthy said, is probably the largest in the history of the State. I commend the action taken by the Department to accommodate 100,000 people who arrived on our shores needing shelter and help. When we look at the minutiae of it, and the job of this committee is to drill down into things, we will find errors and instances where things should have been done better but in the broad sweep of history, when we look back on this period, we will say that the State, and the Department in particular, was asked to shoulder a burden and to protect people who needed our help and it rose to that challenge, however imperfectly and in however many ways we could have done it better. That should be acknowledged.

It should also be acknowledged, although I do not expect Mr. McCarthy or any of his officials to comment, that the Department has been asked to shoulder a really significant burden that has involved an enormous expansion of expenditure by the Department. I acknowledge the issues raised by other Deputies and have the same concerns in my own constituency and community but I want to recognise the incredible work the Department has done under enormous pressure. The response may be imperfect, as I said, but a huge challenge was placed in front of the Department and for the most part, it has risen to that challenge. I thank the Department for that work.

My first question reflects what I have just said. Looking at spending, which is the most basic way of judging the size of the Department, we see that it rose from €1.8 billion in 2021 to €2.7 billion in 2022. When we take in the disability line too, we are probably looking at an increase of 300%, if not more, in spending by the Department. I want to ask about the capacity of the Department in that context. A lot of the issues that we are identifying here around community engagement and the outsourcing of inspections only relate to one line of spending, that of temporary and international protection. What are the plans to scale up the Department? The spending of the Department has increased by at least 300% but it is not at the capacity that is needed to meet its new obligations. Is the Department sanctioned to spend in terms of extra staffing and can it get the staff it needs? What are the long-term plans for increasing capacity in the Department?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I thank the Deputy and I appreciate his opening comments. We have grown hugely as an organisation, as he rightly reflected, in terms of the scale of demands that we are managing. We are on a very fast growth path in terms of our own staffing resources. The Comptroller and Auditor General referenced the staffing figures from the beginning of 2022 in comparison to the end of that year. We have grown our numbers to approximately 780 at this point. There has been significant growth in numbers over the past two years. We have engaged our own direct recruitment partner to assist us in doing that over the period and tried to reduce our reliance on the Public Appointments Service because of our overall scale of recruitment. We have been identified as a priority by the PAS for the filling of vacancies over the past two years. We have done our own direct recruitment to try to supplement that and we have also engaged with third-party partner providers in a number of areas to assist us in filling capacity gaps. If we take the example of the processing of invoices, which was referenced earlier in the context of the accounts, the scaling up of demands on the Department on that front required an organisational response in order for us to be able to manage the scale of demands that materialised. That response involved third-party partner providers being brought in to assist us. We have tried to be as creative as we can be as an organisation and to bring as much resource as possible to bear on the challenge we face. We have partnered with others where that option was available to us.

We have an ambitious workforce plan continuing across this year and into next year in terms of further recruitment plans and we do have support from the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform in respect of our needs on that front.

In terms of specific competencies, Mr. McCarthy's Department was asked to contract accommodation on a scale it would never have been asked to do before. Currently, the Department is trying to reconfigure that accommodation in terms of the temporary protection applicants who are increasingly leaving that accommodation. The Department is trying to consolidate and ensure we are increasing standards and encourage some of those accommodation providers to move into international protection. Does the Department have the relevant competencies within it to deal with those types of contract negotiations? I share the worry of other Deputies that many people in the private sector are making a lot of money from our response to this crisis. Does the Department have that competency within it to drive a hard bargain on the part of the State to ensure we are getting the best value for money and also in terms of the consolidation piece to ensure we are moving to higher quality providers and that people are getting a better standard of service? Are we being successful in converting some of the temporary protection accommodation to international protection, where we are seeing increasing pressures?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

As to the Deputy's first question, I am very satisfied we have really good people working on this in terms of both the compliance activity we are engaged in and the contracting activity. I should have mentioned earlier that we had support from other Departments as part of our initial response, in terms of seconding and borrowing people to assist us, including some specialist expertise. We had the benefit of accountancy expertise that was brought in around that. We have done our own recruitment on that front as well to ensure we have the necessary specialist expertise in those areas. I am satisfied that we continue to develop our capacity on these fronts but there obviously are evolving challenges all of the time. As the Deputy rightly stated, as the Ukraine response moves from one phase to another and where the challenge is consolidation, that will bring up a different set of issues. The impact on individuals who are being asked to move was referenced earlier. That will create a lot of issues at a local level.

I will cut across Mr. McCarthy as I have two minutes remaining. The discussion so far has understandably been dominated by our response in terms of temporary protection and international protection.

I want to ask a question about the national childcare scheme. The Department has not let the grass grow under its feet in that regard. There has been significant movement on driving down costs for service users. I want to ask about the number of children who are benefiting from those subsidies and where the gaps in the provision are, as in the providers who are not choosing to engage in the national childcare scheme. Where are those gaps? Are they regional? Is there a difference between urban and more rural settings? What steps is the Department taking to try to reach further with the national childcare scheme to ensure the penetration is better?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I might give the Deputy the numbers he requested on the beneficiaries of temporary protection, BOTPs, exiting at this point. The contracts we have exited or pivoted to international protection, IP, already account for a capacity of 823 and there are a further 1,200 in the pipeline, in terms of that activity.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

On the early years aspect, there has been very considerable investment in early years. There have been historic levels of investment. The 2028 target under First 5 was achieved four years ahead of schedule, facilitated by Government investment. The national childcare scheme now has 167,000 unique children benefiting from the subsidies available under the scheme and 106,000 children are participating in ECCE, the early years education programme, which is massively beneficial, as everybody appreciates, in its developmental impact for every child.

As for pressure on places, there are services with vacant places. Approximately half of services, or 51%, have vacant places. Equally, just under half of services have waiting lists and those pressures tend to be more in urban locations. Considerable work is being done around trying to develop capacity in the system through the new capital programmes, such as building blocks grants programmes, which are there to facilitate investment in extensions or new services. There will be a number of strands of that as we go. Within the Department we have established a new supply management unit to allow us to get a better handle on future supply requirements and to plan better and work with childcare providers and committees to plan for future investments in capacity in the sector. The huge investment in early years has created choice for parents and a facility for them to avail of subsidised early learning and childcare places that did not exist before. That advance in affordability for parents is materialising in demand. We are seeing some of the pressures that brings on the system but it is a very welcome pressure because it is a reflection of the fact that parents now have the opportunity, which did not exist previously, to access affordable childcare.

I thank Mr. McCarthy.

I welcome Mr. McCarthy and his colleagues. I want to focus on the handling of what seems to be a shambolic approach to the whole immigration system and the provision of accommodation. When I say a shambolic approach, that is certainly what it is from Government level right the way down. What is needed is a fair, efficient and enforced immigration system with proper communication with communities. None of those things are happening on the ground with public representatives or communities. The whole process is failing communities and those who come to these shores seeking international protection.

I will start with the first area, which is community engagement. Certainly, the approach that has been taken is shambolic. I will give an example in my local constituency of Wicklow, in the area of Newtownmountkennedy. In early March, bulldozers and JCBs moved onto a site owned by the HSE - there are question marks around the ownership of the site - and started to remove topsoil, put in hard core and prepare the ground for something. Despite repeated requests to the Department, the community engagement team told us that nothing was happening, that the site was under review and an assessment was being carried out. That is the line I was fed and was feeding out to the community. That went on for a couple of weeks before I eventually raised it in the Dáil with the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, on a Thursday evening. He stood over the position that nothing was happening with that particular site and that a process of assessment was being carried out. The following day, a communication came out from the Department to say that the site would be used for accommodation for internationally displaced persons. That was a complete failure of engagement with the community and it actually got the backs of the community up. The community had campaigned for that premises to be turned into a community space and we were told umpteen times that it was not suitable and would not be handed over to the community, but then all of this happened. From the get-go, the whole approach was wrong. What does "communication" mean to the Department?

What does that mean to the Government? Will Mr. McCarthy respond to that question?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

The community engagement team that was established in October operates to a standard protocol and approach with respect to new openings. I know the frustration when information is not available and then becomes available, but it is important that the information is released in a managed way and that everyone is told the same information at the same time. From experience-----

The fact is that I, as a public representative, and the community were lied to. Clearly, a decision had been taken to use that premises for accommodation. We were lied to right up until the last minute. The work was being carried out on the ground. We were misled as public representatives.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I am not aware of the timings of that specific case. However, we try to provide as much information as we can when we can. There will be instances - and I am not talking about that particular case - where people are preparing accommodation they intend to offer to us, but we are not in the loop and would not have been party to any conversations around it.

I do not want to labour the point, but------

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I appreciate the point

-----can Mr. McCarthy see the difficult position it puts public representatives in when we are looking to bring communities with us in what needs to be done?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Absolutely.

This mismanagement is at a basic level of communication. People are being lied to from the get-go and something is happening on the ground.

I will finish on this point. What does assessment mean? I am aware of the engagement between the Department and other Departments looking for space or premises. What assessment took place in that situation or in any other location where accommodation was being sought to be provided? As far as I can see, it goes back to the failure to have a coherent plan in place. The approach being taken by the Department seems to be led by speculators making millions of euro from it. What community audits take place in an area, such as Newtown, or anywhere else before a decision is taken to put in accommodation centres?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

To pick up on public representatives being misled or whatever form of language the Deputy chooses to use around that, we appreciate the support of local public representatives on the ground when it comes to challenging openings of this nature. We are keen that public representatives are told the same information at the same time. That is the approach the community engagement team seeks to take. We can always build on experiences of openings that went well or did not go well and modify and evolve the protocol around that. We are open to that.

Unfortunately, I have heard that mantra from the top, the Minister, the Taoiseach, the former Taoiseach and right the way down, that the Government will tighten up on communication and engagement, but the reality on the ground is completely different and it is causing huge tensions in communities, which makes integration at the end of it almost impossible. We are creating fires in communities, where it is not necessary for us to have those issues.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Absolutely.

Communication is key. I mean no disrespect to Mr. McCarthy. I know he is here to do a job and tell us what is happening, but I have been raising communication for six months or more and been told that different things are happening in the Taoiseach's office with communication and co-ordination, but none of it is happening. It is creating chaos in communities.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

It is important to point out we have opened 200 new accommodation centres for international protection applicants since January of last year, so while there are-----

Okay, I am sorry; I am conscious of time.

Regarding community audits, before a decision is taken to open an accommodation centre in a community, what is done to engage with the HSE about access to GPs and dentists? Are any audits being carried out in communities?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

There is continual contact with the HSE and the Departments of Health and Education around what we are doing and they are in a position to identify particular pressure points. We are in a continual dialogue with other parts of the system about where the pressure points are. That does come into play.

I am conscious of------

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

The point about the 200 accommodation centres was that while there have been high profile, difficult and challenging instances of resistance and openings that created difficulties, there have also been very successful low-key openings among that 200, where there is community support. People were welcomed into those communities and it is important to acknowledge that.

I acknowledge that good work is being done at different levels. However, when it goes wrong, it goes wrong. The case in Wicklow currently on the ground went wrong from the get-go.

I will touch on the numbers of people who have come to the State and are currently in the process of applying for asylum. What are the up-to-date figures? Do the witnesses have those?

Mr. David Delaney

Is that applications in the past year or so or more?

Yes, the number of people who are currently seeking international protection to whom we are providing accommodation.

Mr. David Delaney

We are providing accommodation to approximately 29,000 people at the moment. Approximately 13,200 people applied for international protection last year; approximately 13,600 applied in 2022 and in the first quarter of this year more than 5,000 claimed international protection so we have seen a fairly significant jump in quarter 1 of this year compared to the very high numbers in 2023 and 2022.

That more or less corresponds with the figures I have. I have done a rough calculation that is not too far off the figures Mr. Delaney gave. More than 10,800 people who have claimed asylum have been waiting for a decision for 16 months or more. What is the average time for a decision to be taken in the witnesses' experience?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

That is a Department of Justice matter, as the Deputy will be aware, but it also has an impact on us.

I am aware of that, but it has a huge impact on the provision of accommodation.

Mr. David Delaney

It absolutely does. The most recent figures I have heard or read, perhaps from a few months ago, is that the average processing time is 13 or 14 months, but the Deputy would need to clarify that with the Department of Justice. It includes accelerated processing times of approximately two months or so. Those are the first instance decision processing times, but many cases that get a negative decision are-----

The figures I have are that more than 30% have been in the process for 16 months or more. That is not efficient. That is what is creating the bottlenecks in the system causing the Department to try to source accommodation in areas that are not fit-for-purpose. It is because the system is not efficient.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

There is a right of appeal, which prolongs cases and that can be a particular bottleneck.

That is not in all cases.

How many of those in the system who are being provided accommodation have been granted asylum?

Mr. David Delaney

It is just over 5,700.

Final question, Deputy.

How many people whose application has been refused are in accommodation?

Mr. David Delaney

I do not have an up-to-date figure for that, but the most recent figure I have is in the region of 100 or fewer. We have very few in that ballpark.

I appreciate that the witnesses are doing a difficult job. I am concerned about our other services, such as childcare and disability services.

The disability service was integrated into the Department. Has that integration happened in full?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Yes.

There is an extra €2.8 billion in the Department's budget now. I am concerned, with that €2.8 billion, about the level of service being provided, which is non-existent in many cases. I know of a 15-year-old girl who is one of four siblings who have serious special and physical needs. For the past 12 months, she has been visiting a consultant, her doctor and the hospital on an emergency basis, to be told she requires physiotherapy. Yet, no physiotherapy is available to her from the children's disability network team, CDNT. Can anyone explain why that is the case?

How does the Department engage with the HSE on something like this to ensure the service is provided for the moneys it is paying?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

We obviously have an agreement with the HSE as part of its national service plan. We sign off on activity levels in a given year in respect of that money and the considerable investment going in, as Deputy Murphy has rightly identified.

On the CDNT services, the Deputy is aware there are significant workforce challenges including filling vacancies. A total of 34% of posts on the CDNTs were vacant in 2022, the last full census of CDNT vacancies. This is a particular challenge. There is a high level of engagement with the HSE on how we can address this through a waiting list initiative and through additional funding to allow them to procure private assessments if they need to. A significant recruitment campaign has been under way since the start of the year.

Can Mr. McCarthy imagine the challenge-----

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I want to make two points. There is a recruitment embargo generally, as Deputy Murphy knows, in the HSE but we have a derogation agreed on this in respect of disability services.

If there is a recruitment crisis, I do not know what point Mr. McCarthy is making with regard to the embargo. We cannot get them, never mind the embargo.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I am simply saying that I believe the transfer of disability services to our Department has had a benefit in terms of the capacity to address in a targeted way those vacancies.

This is a very difficult situation. This is a home-caring parent of four very seriously physically dependent children, one of whom is non-verbal. This particular child has serious spinal medical requirements. She is unable to get physiotherapy. She is also unable to obtain a weighing scales for a child who weighs 52 kg whom she has to lift out of the bed and weigh twice a week because she has a heart and lung condition. She physically has to hold that child on a weighing scales and then deduct her own weight. It would not be asking much for someone who is saving the State considerable amounts of money to be given a scales for €650.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

No, I-----

It should not even have to be asked for twice, should it, realistically?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I am not familiar with the particular case so I am not in a position to comment. On the facts that Deputy Murphy is describing-----

It does not make sense, does it?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

It is hard to defend, absolutely.

I am not asking Mr. McCarthy to defend it; I am asking him to engage and have it sorted. It is particularly distressing that we do not have the services, and those who are providing them under extreme duress are not being assisted. This is one instance.

When we come to childcare, I am inundated with parents who are very concerned about not having the provisions of childcare in place, and the situation is not as Mr. McCarthy described. For the past month in Wexford, an after-school service, which was providing an after-school childcare service to 60 working families, has been closed. The provider had to close because it could not meet the regulatory requirements. I am sure somebody here is familiar with this. It has been sorted. Does anybody know the service I am speaking about? I do not want to name it but I will if nobody is familiar with it. Has no one from the Department heard about this?

Will Deputy Murphy repeat the details?

An after-school childcare service provider closed, leaving 60 working families without after-school care. Nobody here is familiar with it.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I am not familiar with it but we can certainly look to see whether we have been shared details on it.

It is a private provider.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I appreciate that. There is capacity through the county childcare committees to support services in these instances and to support parents who may be discommoded by a decision of a provider in these instances.

It was left to the school to sort out and source another provider. Another provider has come in but for how long I do not know. Ultimately, these services just do not pay any more.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

In a case like this I would suggest making contact with the county childcare committee, which is in a position to provide this type of support.

It is not just that they do not pay. The other issue is that providers have great difficulty in recruiting staff because they cannot pay them enough. The staff they are recruiting are at a level when they are not taken on as full-time employees. They have no pension entitlements. They could get a job in Tesco, for example, that would serve them better in every regard. This is where we are at with childcare. Staffing retention and recruitment is at a critical stage. The Department says there are improvements but they are on one level only.

All of this was forewarned to the Minister in Dáil debates. He was told that what happened in nursing home provision would happen in the childcare system. Providers will just close because it is no longer affordable. They cannot make money. They cannot get staff. Therefore, they cannot meet the regulatory requirements and they are mandated to close. All of this needs to be considered.

I urge the Secretary General to undertake a review. He is not aware of the facility I mentioned. I am aware from childcare advocates that, based on the figures they hold, as lobbyists or representative organisations, the Department's figures do not hold water. Their figures and the figures of the Department are completely at odds with regard to closures. We are discussing 2022. We need to update ourselves readily into 2024 when it comes to the provision of childcare.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I want to come in on that point.

I do not really need you to. I want you to institute------

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

There are a couple of things it is important to put on the record in respect of this.

I have two minutes left and I want to move on. If Mr. McCarthy wants to write to us on this, that will be no problem.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I would-----

I need to move on.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Perhaps the Cathaoirleach will allow me to come in at the end.

We will come back but this is very important. As the Committee of Public Accounts, our first requirement is to ensure value for money. How does Mr. McCarthy ascertain the figures he provides for international protection accommodation? How does the Department come by figures for much a bed night costs? How is that ascertained?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

As I mentioned earlier, we had experience over time in terms of what the market is prepared to sustain in terms of our standard rates of offering. I will pick up on one of the questions asked earlier about the comparison between-----

No, I do not have time. I just want to ask how it is ascertained. For instance, when it comes to a nursing home we have figures of roughly €900 per room per week. This is the HSE figure, give or take a couple of bob. What model is this based on?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Again, we benchmark costs across the entire bed stock. On the basis of that, and on the basis of requests for tender processes undertaken previously, we know what the appropriate market rate is in respect of bed nights. That determines-----

What is it benchmarked on?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

It is benchmarked on market responses to formal request for tender processes-----

Availability, in other words.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

-----as well as our track record of procurement over a long period of time for international protection services and what other State providers are prepared to pay in respect of accommodation services and emergency accommodation services. All of those things are taken into account.

Baggot Street-----

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Deputy Munster asked a question earlier that I would like to come back to as part of this.

No, Mr. McCarthy can come back to Deputy Munster when she comes in.

Hold on, Deputy.

Stop the clock then, Chair.

When the Deputy is finished her ten minutes I will let Mr. McCarthy back in to answer those two questions.

That is fine.

I want to ask about Baggot Street hospital and the particular reasoning behind not having it offered while we have asylum seekers sleeping in tents. It is deplorable that we make such a meal out of this. We have a perfectly good building that could accommodate hundreds of applicants but we have them in tents and we are fighting over rural accommodation all over the country where protests are taking place. We have a perfectly acceptable former hospital owned by the State, the HSE being the biggest land hoarder or accommodation centre hoarder in the country, with 170 buildings. Why has the Department not insisted that Baggot Street hospital be facilitated as an IPAS centre?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

There are two points on this. I acknowledge that the HSE has provided us with a number of facilities and sites, and it has been very co-operative and supportive of our efforts in terms of-----

Just on Baggot Street hospital, what is the problem?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

On Baggot Street hospital specifically, it was considered as part of the accommodation working group refurbishment programme led by the Department of housing. A survey or site inspection was undertaken by Dublin City Council.

It was ruled out for development on cost grounds. It is an old, listed building. The investment required to bring it up to a standard that we would use, both in terms of the timelines that would involve-----

The standard-----

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

The timelines and the cost just put it out of that programme.

The standard of a roof over a tent on concrete was what ruled out Baggot Street hospital.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

No, it-----

It was favourable not to spend any money on the hospital, where beds accommodated people up to the early 1990s. We have reams of tents on the streets of Dublin in deplorable conditions, without sanitary facilities, yet Baggot Street hospital was ruled out. Who ruled it out? Was it-----

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

It was considered as part of the refurbishment programme, which had particular value-for-money parameters. Criteria were applied, essentially, in respect of any proposal that came to that group. This did not meet the criteria on cost and timeline grounds.

Could I ask-----

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

We are also aware, by the way-----

Is it that tents are cheaper?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Sorry, this was part of the Ukraine refurbishment programme. We-----

I am not talking about any particular nationality.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I appreciate that. The Baggot Street building would not have been available to us for three or four years anyway, given the scale of the project-----

I find that extraordinary. A facility is in perfectly good condition, albeit listed, and Mr. McCarthy is telling me the Department would not have been able to make it available.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Our information is that it would have needed very considerable investment to bring it into use. It is not in a position for use.

Can the committee get further information on this, including setting out the timeline it would take and the fact it is a listed building? Some of us from outside Dublin would not have been aware of that. The point the Deputy made is fair. There would need to be very good reasons that building is not being used. Maybe the committee could be supplied with that information.

Mr. McCarthy wanted to answer a question that was asked earlier. I want to be fair to him.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I have almost forgotten what the question was but I will come back to it. We can share the inspection report in respect of the Baggot Street building. I also make the point that we are aware the HSE has its own plans in relation to one of the buildings.

Okay, thank you. We are way over time.

I thank the Chair. I have an awful lot of questions so I will also come in for a second time. I very much welcome all the officials. They will know I have asked questions about Baggot Street hospital. I worked across the road from it for years at Bord Fáilte. Why that building is not being used is beyond my comprehension. I do not buy the arguments. With respect to the Chair, maybe a small delegation from this committee, along with representatives from the Department, the Department of housing and Dublin City Council, could visit it someday. I would be up for that. It is absolutely beyond my comprehension that it is not being used in some capacity by the Government. I would like to see not just the assessment but all correspondence with Dublin City Council as well.

To be balanced and fair to the Department, what it faced was unprecedented. I accept that. There has been a huge amount of change in personnel. I cannot keep up with who does what on the departmental side because it changes so often. Staffing is obviously an issue in the Department. There is a huge amount of change around in respect of people. The Department is spiralling. It has almost gone too far. It is very difficult. It has many different areas and a lot of different responsibilities.

One thing about the Department is that it is very much interdependent on other Departments doing their bit as well. I acknowledge that. For instance, and I would not have brought this up in the same manner, the matter of the Department of Justice and processing times for applicants was brought up. If that is not done efficiently, the officials before us are left to pick up the pieces. I do not mean that in a literal way but in the sense of the volume of people here, who have not been processed, the officials have to deal with. That is just a fact. The Department is also dependent on co-operation from the Departments of Health and housing, and other Departments as well. I want to put that very much on the record. The Minister, who is a very decent man, has been very much politically isolated. I want to say that. We do not get into politics here, but he has been left to deal with many of these issues, more or less by himself, as have his officials.

My first question is for Dr. Brooks. It relates to childcare centres. I will use a parochial example. In accordance with what others said, the whole childcare sector is in crisis. It will be like nursing homes, which, with our demographics, will be a massive crisis we need to prepare for, as will childcare. I know all about the changes, the independent review done by Indecon, the plans to set up a new agency and all of that. Dr. Brooks does not need to tell me about any of that because I know it all. We have been told about it and I am aware of it. I will use a parochial example to illustrate where we are at. I spoke with the chair of the board of management of Nenagh Childcare Centre. He said that if the funding model does not change, the centre will close this Christmas as it will be trading recklessly otherwise. It looks after 107 children and has 23 staff. Effectively, the centre has not had a funding change for 20 years. It is funded through Pobal. We know all about that and we know where that is going. However, before the change in administration happens, and using Nenagh as an example, I am publicly asking the officials to meet staff from that centre with me. Dr. Brooks might answer that.

Nenagh is quite an affluent town but this facility deals with people who need this service. It is not realistic, with 23 staff costing €750,000 in wages, for that centre to be able to continue with such a massive funding differential. In the short term, before everything hopefully changes, what will the Department do for the likes of Nenagh Childcare Centre, which will close, according to its chair, to help it get through this? That centre has a legacy issue due to Covid, as do all such facilities.

Dr. Anne-Marie Brooks

I do not know the details of the particular centre the Deputy spoke about. However, on the wider funding model, and I do not know whether the service is participating in core funding, there have been very substantial increases to individual services through core funding. This year, in total, €287 million is being allocated across the sector. That will increase again by 15% from the third programme year come September. In addition to that allocation, we are also seeing quite substantial increases, as reflected earlier, in the number of parents and children accessing services, which adds to and improves sustainability of services through the national childcare scheme and the ECCE programme. I would be surprised if the service had not seen any increase in funding over the past number of years, given the scale of funding we are aware of that has gone into individual services, but I do not know the details that the Deputy spoke about-----

Will the Department meet with Nenagh Childcare Centre? The centre obviously has a certain isolated issue relating to how it is funded. I would appreciate it if the Department would do that and confirm it.

Dr. Anne-Marie Brooks

Will the Deputy give me details of the service? There may have been engagement already through Pobal.

The centre has had no fruitful success in relation to changing or re-funding its model. It is in crisis, effectively.

Dr. Anne-Marie Brooks

I would be willing to meet with them.

Thank you. We had a meeting with Tusla here some time ago. The officials are well aware of it. An issue of concern was raised relating to private companies hiring unvetted workers. I do not want Mr. McCarthy to provide information on that, but he is obviously well aware of it and it is of deep concern. Will he provide documentation relating to correspondence between the Department and Tusla on this matter from the time it became known to the Department? Will all communication between the Department and Tusla on this specific issue, and details of any meetings officials or the Minister had with Tusla since this broke, be provided in writing?

I will come back in for a second time, but I will raise issues in respect of IPAS and those seeking temporary protection. As I understand that, there are two lines of responsibility within the Department. One relates to IPAS under Mr. Delaney and the other relates to Ukrainian refugees under Ms Rooney. Is that correct?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Yes.

I noticed there have been changes in that regard. That is fine. I will be a bit parochial in my example. Others have said this too but if the Department had a choice again, would it have taken over the hotel in Roscrea?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

One thing I would say on that is as part-----

It is, obviously, the last social venue and it causes huge issues in an area. To be fair to the people of Roscrea, who I represent, it caused huge issues to an area in which a significant number of people were already being accommodated, and accommodated very well, by the way.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

There are two things I would say on that. One is to again point to the scale of the pressure we have been under, which has driven decisions, as the Deputy will appreciate, with that imperative of trying as best we can to be in a position to be able to offer accommodation to people on arrival.

I am sorry for the time clock, but just-----

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

No, I appreciate that. Government has agreed as part of its agreement on the new comprehensive strategy for international protection that one of the criterion that will be taken into account from now on is where a hotel is being procured and whether it is the last remaining hotel.

Common sense would have said this is the only hotel in the town. It is like Drogheda. I appreciate Drogheda is a different scale to Roscrea, but is it not just a bit of common sense? Now, it is a criterion afterwards.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I would say there are competing public interests in play in these decisions. Our imperative is to try to keep people off the streets.

Let me go about it another way. The decision has also been made as part of this that the Government is going to buy another hotel. I have spoken to at least a dozen Ministers in this Government and they laugh at this, including some of the Ministers involved. They laugh at the idea that the Government is buying hotels because they took over a hotel in the town. People are rolling their eyes. That is all they think about. I used to work in Bord Fáilte, which is now Fáilte Ireland. I know a considerable amount about registering hotels. Where is this at?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

As the Deputy referenced, political commitments have been given to support a proposal for the establishment of a community hotel.

Where is it at?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

My understanding is that Tipperary County Council has been involved in developing a proposal with the local development company. Fáilte Ireland has been asked to do a feasibility study on that. There are potential avenues of funding across Government that could support a proposal of that nature. They would not be within our Vote, just to make that clear, but there would be potential. There was a previous model in Monaghan, which I understand was supported through LEADER funding and PEACE+ funding. I will check exactly where the status of that current proposal is but my understanding is-----

I would appreciate that.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

The Deputy might bear with me for a moment because I do have a note on it. My understanding is that a north Tipperary development company has applied to the Department of Rural and Community Development for funding.

The Deputy might be brief.

As Mr. McCarthy is aware, I had to wait for about three months to get these statistics with regard to the number of beneficiaries of temporary protection, BOTP, and international protection, IP, applicants broken down by local electoral area, LEA. I do not think they are public. That is not the issue. I believe that information provision and transparency are the Department's friends with regard to much of this stuff. When it comes to the breakdown by local area, which is the reason I asked for it, is that taken into consideration when the Department makes decisions regarding BOTP or IP applicants being placed in the country? For instance, if we look at the local electoral area in Kenmare, it is 3,076 people out of a population of 25,000. If we look at the Killiney-Shankill local electoral area, 157 people are being accommodated. I am very into making sure we look after everyone, but I also think we need to be fair and balanced across the country with geographical spread. With regard to the Department's decision-making - I will get into criteria in the next round - is part of the Department's criteria and decision-making the volume of people already accommodated in an area versus an area which has very few or is it just that we take what we get?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

It is taken into account and we keep a watch on the overall spread. For example, at stages in the Ukraine response where we were under significant pressure, we could see that there were parts of the country, and we knew from our engagement with local authorities, where the pressure on services was such that we would have made a choice to stay away from offers in those places.

Just to say, it is not the case, unfortunately, particularly when it comes to international protection, where we find ourselves with a menu of options and we are deciding between one or the other.

I understand that.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

That is part of the reality in terms of what is driving-----

However, another hotel has gone in Kenmare in the last week or so and there are no extra places in Killiney-Shankill.

I thank the Deputy. In the second round, we will get into the criteria a little bit.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I might just come in on the Tusla piece if that is okay. We will obviously share that correspondence. There has been considerable engagement with Tusla on both the wider question of pressure on special emergency arrangements and residential places generally but also specifically on the provider issues it has identified. We are, therefore, well aware of the challenges Tusla faces on that front. We support it as best we can. It is very important to understand that.

That is very important.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

We are satisfied that Tusla has handled that extremely well in terms of ensuring further referrals were not made to those services, that a plan was in place for transitioning out of those services, and that wider parts of government were informed of the issues that arose.

I thank Mr. McCarthy. We are going to break for ten minutes, after which we will address those questions on the inspections and visits and the State versus private costs.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I can come back in now on a couple of those, if it is helpful.

Yes, if Mr. McCarthy has that information. I am not going to allow a discussion on it.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I have several scraps of paper so the Chair might bear with me. On the maternity leave, first of all-----

The reason I was giving the break was for Mr. McCarthy to get his papers in order.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

It was to allow me to organise. The Chair is very good. I will deal with them as best I can. The maternity leave is being addressed in the context of the new equality legislation

Have the new heads of Bill gone to Cabinet?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

The general scheme has been finalised at this point. It is on the list for priority drafting in the coming session.

It is not in the summer, however.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

It is for priority drafting in the summer session.

Mr. McCarthy said it was not on the list for this summer.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

It is on the priority list for publication.

When does Mr. McCarthy think we can expect it?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I will come back to the Deputy with a timeline.

Has the Department been working on the amendment?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Absolutely. Considerable work has been going into the drafting of the revised legislation-----

I am sorry; Mr. McCarthy might just say that again. The general scheme of the Bill is-----

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

-----but there is specific work being done in that legislation on the postponement of maternity leave in the case of serious illness, just to confirm that.

When does Mr. McCarthy think-----

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

The intention is that it will be part of that Bill.

It will be part of it. It will be on the summer programme or it will be before summer.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Yes. It is on the list for priority drafting. We cannot give the exact dates at this time, but we will provide as much clarity as we can.

We will have it in the next couple of months before the summer recess.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

On the cost comparisons between State-owned and private, we are looking at a unit cost of €30 in State-owned versus approximately €78 in private.

The other question was about the total being spent on emergency accommodation. Has Mr. McCarthy got that figure?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

We can get the Deputy that figure. We have that.

It can be after the break. I am suspending the meeting for five minutes.

The other issue was the independent monitoring, the 30 inspections.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I do not know where the figure of 30 came from. That is the Deputy's figure.

I will tell Mr. McCarthy where it came from. It came from the Irish Refugee Council. There were 30 reports published. Therefore, if Mr. McCarthy is saying there were 105-----

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

That may be inspection reports that are published on its website, but the figures I gave the Deputy are the numbers of inspections that were conducted.

I thank Mr. McCarthy.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

There may be a backlog in the publications.

The meeting is suspended for ten minutes.

Can I come back on that?

Yes. We will come back to it later in the second round.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I would like to come back in on Deputy Murphy's questions as well, if that is okay.

Yes, that is okay. We will come back to that after the break. There will be a second round of questioning-----

Can we complete the last question?

There will be a second round of questioning. I will allow the Deputy back in after that point.

I have been sitting here since-----

I am suspending the meeting for a ten-minute break.

Chair, can we not go ahead and complete this with Deputy Murphy and then come back and start again?

That would save us going around again, in fairness.

Yes, if members are happy to do that.

Yes, that is fine.

I think everyone is happy.

I have not got in yet either so I am happy enough to proceed for another ten minutes.

Let Deputy Murphy ask one round of questions.

Sorry, I will chair the meeting. If Deputy Murphy wants to come in before the break, I will allow her to do so.

I agree with many of the points that have been made with regard to the Department. Indeed, I heard the criticism from our Fianna Fáil colleague here.

This is a whole-of-government issue but the problem is that there is not a whole-of-government response.

I want to concentrate exclusively on the international protection provision. Mr. McCarthy says he cannot tell us the amounts for reasons of commercial sensitivity. However, the same groups of people are getting multiple contracts. A lot of them are connected. They know each other and they are talking to each other. The only people who do not appear to be able to find out how much this costs are the people who are actually paying it. I question this commercial sensitivity from that point of view. It is not acceptable.

There are three particular areas. People concentrate on communication. There is strategy, which is obviously the political piece, and then there are process and communication, which are the Department's responsibility. The process is internal. In the normal course of events, if a Government Department wished to buy something, it would put it out to tender. This is not happening because of the emergency nature of this provision. We now have a highly internal process and we are relying on the Department to put those controls in place because they are out of view. I have concerns about some of this and even the accuracy of the information being used in some circumstances. For example, in my own area, we got a sizeable document last week concerning Ryevale House. This is a protected listed building that would have required planning permission for use. I laugh when I hear about the building in Baggot Street being listed. The Department was told it was a listed building before it happened and that it would require planning permission, but the Department went ahead without it. The report last week showed what we are getting for what we are paying. It showed huge failures, with no consequences for the people who are contracted. We are told that bunk beds should not be used. Did the Department not check before it contracted the service? The report says that there are not enough tables and chairs and that the food is monotonous. An industrial water tanker is permanently stationed outside the building because there is an issue with the water supply. The complaints form is only available from the manager's office. There is a litany of things wrong in this case. We have to start asking what exactly we are getting and when it is not provided, what are the consequences.

A fire certificate was sought nine months after people began to be accommodated in the building. The information in it is totally inaccurate. It states that the building was previously used as bed and breakfast accommodation. That was never the case. An outbuilding was used for Airbnb accommodation on a very informal basis. The building was never used as bed and breakfast accommodation and should not have been exempt from building control regulations. The fire certificate is really important from the point of view of keeping people safe. How is it that things were found eight or nine months after people moved in that meant that it looked like the contract would have to be ceased? Why were these things not found before people were accommodated in the building?

I can cite another case in the west where a facilities manager was appointed. It appears the National Asset Management Agency, NAMA, owns the building, judging from the land registry. The person who is facilities manager formerly owned the building and has two unsatisfied judgments secured by the Revenue Commissioners. The company has no tangible assets and there are 47 people accommodated in the building. I cannot understand how someone like that can be the facilities manager. The last time he appeared here, Mr. McCarthy told me that the control used was tax clearance. I am looking at companies that keep changing directors. From whom is the tax clearance certificate obtained? Does the Department change who it pays the contract to if the company changes during the contract period? When the Department does these inspections, what does it do when it finds non-compliance? I accept that we are in an emergency but very large amounts of money are being thrown at this. What does the Department do when contractors are non-compliant with the contract they have been given?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

There are a number of questions there, so I will try to take them in turn. Regarding the Ryevale House inspection, I make the point that we shared those inspection reports with the committee. Without getting into the details of a particular case, the inspection report identified some quite significant issues. In a case like that, IPAS management and the residential welfare team I referred to earlier engage with centre management and residents to ensure that any of the issues identified in an inspection report like that are addressed.

There is more to it than that. Bunk beds were said to be unsuitable but the place is full of bunk beds. The Department should have known that when it contracted the service. Did somebody even go and check?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

We would be aware of the format of accommodation that is agreed in any particular case. Dormitory-style accommodation is procured in some instances. We are procuring accommodation that is below the national standard. I am not sure what the situation is in the case of Ryevale House.

Has Mr. McCarthy read his own report?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Is the Deputy referring to the Ryevale House situation?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

If they are not in compliance with the agreed contractual arrangements, that will be addressed in the follow-up with the provider. I am not sure on the detail of whether there is specific issue around that.

The fire certification issue is a red line for us. It is an absolute requirement that a facility of that nature would have appropriate fire certification. Our understanding is that this requirement was satisfied. There was an initial closure notice which required certain rectification works to be undertaken. It is my understanding that these were undertaken to the satisfaction of the fire inspector.

Was one done at the beginning, before people were put into the building?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Anyone contracting with us is required to have the appropriate fire certification in place.

How come it failed eight months after people were placed in the building?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

An inspection was probably undertaken. I am not sure exactly why it materialised at that point. Perhaps it is the case that an inspection was undertaken which identified issues that needed to be rectified.

When I see this in once case, on which we have granular information, I ask whether it is replicated all over the place. How many more facilities have been found to have inadequacies with fire safety after the fact?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Fire certification is a matter for the local authorities. For any provider we are contracting with and where we are accommodating people, the fire inspection services on the ground are very active in ensuring that they are satisfied as regards fire safety compliance. We fully support this. We liaise quite closely with the local authorities in this regard to ensure that there is good understanding among providers of what the requirements are and to ensure that the appropriate fire certification is in place. As I said, this is a red-line issue for us. We will not contract, or we will terminate existing contracts, in cases where we are not satisfied in respect of fire certification.

In compliance more generally, on the Ukraine side we have had a very active compliance team in place since the middle of last year. This team is following up on contracts in cases where we are not satisfied with contract performance. We have exited a good number of contracts - 33 in total - arising from concerns we identified as part of the work of the compliance team.

Are the concerns about some of the providers in the international protection area such that the Department would ideally like to terminate the contract?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I am not aware of any that are in the pipeline for termination. However, through our inspection activity, issues have been identified, such as the ones the Deputy mentioned, where there is active engagement with providers in respect of addressing them.

Is there a financial consequence for non-compliance? Is there any consequence?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

The consequence ultimately is that contracts are terminated if we are not satisfied with contract performance. As I say, 33 contracts have been terminated as a result of compliance concerns.

That is on the Ukrainian side.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

That is on the Ukrainian side.

On the other side, how many have been terminated?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

To my knowledge, we have not terminated any contracts for compliance concerns. Our first approach, by the way, in relation to any compliance issue is to try to regularise and rectify. Termination is very much a last resort.

I will suspend the meeting for ten minutes.

Sitting suspended at 11.20 a.m. and resumed at 11.30 a.m.

I thank the witnesses. For my sins I have been voting on the Planning and Development Bill next door so I apologise if I ask questions which have already been asked. I will review the transcript either way.

There are three areas I want to talk about, the first of which is the capital budget for disabilities. Disability has been taken from health and is now with the witnesses' Department. Will they explain the decision-making process on national capital disability projects and how that works with the Department of Health and the HSE? What new mechanisms are in place on that?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I ask my colleague, Mr. Ó Conaill, to explain the process on that.

Mr. Colm Ó Conaill

We inherited lists of capital projects after the transfer in March last year. We are doing a few things with the HSE to reflect some of the changes under way. Capital allocations for disability over previous years, first, would have probably been underspent and not spent to the amount given and, second, was very heavily focused on decongregation and less on some other areas of disability services. There is a senior dedicated lead person being appointed to lead out on disability capital projects in the HSE for the first time.

Do you know who that person is?

Mr. Colm Ó Conaill

No, that process has to happen but we have sanctioned that. There will be a strategic multiyear plan developed over the course of this year. In the meantime, we want a more strategic approach to disability capital expenditure this year. The Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, intends to make an announcement, probably in the next couple of months, on where the spend is going. It will begin to change and become broader in terms of the projects that will be supported to reflect the action plan for disability services published by the Government at the end of last year and, to a degree, the roadmap for children's services.

Will it mirror or be substantially different from the HSE capital plan process?

Mr. Colm Ó Conaill

There are processes in the HSE we fit into. A big part of the transfer function was-----

So there will be priorities from the Department but they will be delivered via the HSE capital plan programme.

Mr. Colm Ó Conaill

Correct, and the processes and procedures followed will be HSE general processes and procedures.

Mr. Ó Conaill got my hopes up at the beginning when he said it would be separate, but then he dashed them. The HSE capital plan process is so slow and one of the benefits of taking disability out of the Department of Health was the reason he just said, that it was not getting the priority it should and often capital projects were the poor relation of other capital projects. It would be disappointing if that separation did not provide benefit by virtue of the delivery. There could now be a situation where the HSE does not feel it is part of core health and yet has projects from another Department in its process system. Is there a check or balance to make sure that does not happen?

Mr. Colm Ó Conaill

I will talk about the practical differences of the transfer. In 2023, we had an underspend, unfortunately, in disability capital but still spent three times the amount spent the previous year. Both Ministers are determined there will not be an underspend on disability capital. In terms of delivery and using the available envelope, which is increasing by around 11% per year in the next couple of years, we have already seen a significant development in disability capital since the transfer of that function into the Department.

My understanding is a service with a national remit still needs to be sponsored by the local CHO as part of the HSE capital programme. Is that correct?

Mr. Colm Ó Conaill

It is top-down and bottom-up. We have strategic plans that are top-down and endorsed by the Government. I mentioned the action plan and the roadmap, but what exactly is happening on the ground? Where are the areas of need? That has to come from CHOs.

I will give an example. A service in my area, Teach an Saol, provides resources and supports for those with acquired brain injuries. Its representatives met with the Minister several times and met with HSE estates. There is a real question around who is the decision-maker and the champion of the project. It is a national service so the benefit locally in the CHO is quite limited but people from all over the country come to the service in Santry. It is a good example of the discussion we have had about who carries the project through the HSE capital system. Is it the local CHO operations manager or, for national services, will it be the Department or somebody at national disabilities level in the HSE?

Mr. Colm Ó Conaill

The direct answer is that several people are involved. The Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, in particular, is directly engaged on capital projects. It is a real priority for her. Capital is now on the agenda of the quarterly meeting between our Ministers and the HSE board. It has been added to the agenda at ministerial request. The projects come up through CHOs but there is a clear sense of a change of direction in terms of what we are doing on disability capital projects. That is why we will have an interim strategic approach this year and then there will be a fuller multiyear approach. Capital takes multiple years. The Deputy may say it is slow but there are reasons things do not happen.

I could understand the reluctance of a chief operating officer in a local CHO, with all the demands they have in their area, on being offered a project with a national remit. They are saying it will not be a priority for them because they have many other areas in their CHO. It requires a project like that to be carried at national level. Does Mr. Ó Conaill agree?

Mr. Colm Ó Conaill

I do not disagree, without knowing the ins and outs of that specific proposal.

I might write to you on it and we can engage on it.

Mr. Colm Ó Conaill

Community neurorehabilitation more broadly, beyond acquired brain injuries, is something the HSE is progressing. A strategy is being progressed and the Minister and Department are interested in seeing it rolled out.

Excellent. My second question is on youth services. We have a funding system whereby youth services are funded with two streams. There is a justice stream and a Department of children stream. An analysis has to be done of those two streams. Many projects have both streams coming in.

There are different models across the country, In Dublin, we have the old City of Dublin Youth Service Board, CDYSB, model, which was a subcommittee of the ETB that ran direct services. There was an active process of divesting those and making them community-led. They have been left now as separate companies and the CDYSB no longer sits on any of those boards. The CDYSB also previously had a distribution role in funding. The Department sent it funding which it distributed. Now we have gone to a different model whereby there is more of a support agency rather than a final decision-maker on distribution of funds. There are big agencies like Crosscare and Foróige in other parts of the country and they are able to manage administration, legal fees and governance issues better than a small operation.

I have met with Finglas Youth Resource Centre in our area, solely funded by the witnesses' Department, not by justice. There is another justice project in the area and there is a lot of engagement between them. The difficulty they have is they are implementing the pay restoration and will have to lose a staff member towards the end of the year, despite budgets increasing in recent years. There needs to be a look at CDYSB projects that are stand-alone youth services, the support we give them and the huge burden of responsibility on the voluntary directors of the boards to manage staffing and so on. Has consideration been given to the viability of those projects, particularly the CDYSB ones in Dublin?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I do not know about the particular projects the Deputy is talking about. We are undertaking an overall reform of the youth services grant scheme, which has been there since the 1980s and has not been adapted or changed since then.

There are some big questions we are considering in respect of potential future directions for how services are supported and how our allocations are made in the sector. That forms part of a wider commitment to try to develop a new strategy for youth services more generally.

Is the Department engaging with the Department of Justice on that?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

We are engaging and will engage further across government on that because there is a range of interested actors in terms of the overall policy around youth services. The Deputy may have seen that the Minister launched a new national policy framework for children and young people before Christmas which sets out the framework for developing services for children and young people right across government. There are new implementation structures being developed as part of that which involves all of the relevant actors across government. This commitment to a new youth services strategy is one of the commitments made as part of that.

The difficulty is that the biggest expansions in youth services in my area have been led by the Department of Justice, rather than the Department of children. The difficulty in that regard is that the Department of Justice and the Garda diversion programme is very much aimed at those children who need direct intervention but one always has to be aware that there are kids who are not engaged in diversionary projects and they deserve a service as well. It sends a bad signal when there are more services, resources and opportunities available for young people who are in trouble than for young people who are not. There needs to be more engagement between the Department of Justice and Mr. McCarthy's Department. They both are invested in the same space. They have different focuses but there needs to be much greater integration between the two Departments. In some cases, new youth workers are employed in new areas but at the same time the Department of children might have no youth service in that area. There needs to be much greater integration between the two Departments.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

We are committed to that dialogue as part of the development of this new policy, which we hope to have finalised by the summer.

There is a mix of approaches when it comes to youth services in terms of universal services and targeted services. Both have a role to play. Both are equally important in their different ways. There are a number of actors, as the Deputy rightly identified, who have an involvement in this. Hopefully, the new policy framework will allow us to put a better shape on that into the future.

I have one last point. There is a crisis among independent youth services in Dublin. The connection with CDYSB and its role, and the Department's intervention, is needed really quickly before the summer because, bizarrely, in an area where we are increasing funding, there will have to be staff reductions.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

My understanding is we are aware of that and will engage further on it.

I appreciate it. I thank Mr. McCarthy.

To revert to accommodation for Ukrainians, a lot has been said already about it. In terms of the cost, Mr. McCarthy outlined the costs.

Sorry, does Deputy Kelly want to come back in?

I do. In my own turn, obviously.

Okay. As regards the costs Mr. McCarthy outlined earlier, it was over €70 per head for private providers and over €30 for something else. Can McCarthy give us those figures again?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I said it is €30 for State-owned and €76 as an average.

At €76, it is substantial.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

That was on international protection, just to clarify.

I understand that the Department could not magic-up new buildings or acquire new buildings or whatever and have State-run facilities staffed and up and running in a matter of weeks or even months, but there is a substantial differential. I am looking at the briefing notes that the Department provided. If one looks at the costs for international protection, the figure for 2022 was €326 million. There was an overspend of €108 million on that. The temporary protection one ran in the region of €367 million for the IPS and the outturn for 2022 for Ukrainian accommodation was €514 million. The 2023 figure, which I got just yesterday, for international protection is €394 million. The figure for the Ukraine part of it is €640 million.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I think that is an understatement.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

The international protection figure sounds right. Did the Cathaoirleach refer to €640 million for international protection?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

That sounds about right for international protection but our full spend on Ukraine in 2023 was €1.49 billion.

So €1.49 million.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Billion. I wish it was million.

Of course, €1.49 billion. Okay. There is a White Paper. There was discussion around this and there were recommendations. A commission was put in place. Where is that at in terms of moving to try to acquire? Presumably, these facilities will have to be bought because if we are waiting to build them, it could take five, six or seven years to get them in place, given the current difficulties in construction. Is the Department being asked to try to source facilities, such as large hotels or large residential institutions belonging to religious orders or whatever, and convert them? Is that under way?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

We have agreement from the Government now on a new strategy on international protection which aims to reduce the reliance on private and commercial providers over time and commits, as I said at the outset, to 14,000 State-owned beds by 2028. There are a number of strands to that in terms of going to market for turnkey properties, acquiring properties and developing on State-owned land. I might ask my colleague to say a little bit more about that.

Is Thornton Hall one of those?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Thornton Hall is certainly a State-owned site that we are looking actively at.

The land was bought when Senator McDowell was Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and has been growing grass and thistles since then.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

We are certainly looking actively at options in respect of Thornton.

It might be put to use after all those years. Sorry, Mr. Delaney may go ahead.

Mr. David Delaney

To give a little bit of background on the comprehensive accommodation strategy which effectively is the long-term strategy that answer the Cathaoirleach's question, it looks to build on the White Paper on ending direct provision and focus on very much the numbers the Cathaoirleach quoted - the €76 per head for private providers versus the €30 on State-run centres. We want to bring on stream the 14,000 beds the Secretary General mentioned as State-centre beds over the next four or five years. There is a focus on driving down that current expenditure.

Did Mr. Delaney refer to 14,000?

Mr. David Delaney

I referred to 14,000 beds. On the methods we are hoping to use to bring solutions on board, the Cathaoirleach made a good point around how long it might take to build centres. We have an expression of interest going to the market in the next fortnight or so.

Build or buy?

Mr. David Delaney

It will be to deliver turnkey solutions to the Department. If something is ready to go right now and an appropriate fee can be agreed-----

Typically, what is the Department looking at? Is it large hotels?

Mr. David Delaney

We have introduced a multi-strand approach. We are open to whatever will reach our national standards. It is also cost-effective for the State, in that we know we are getting value and we can point to a capital expenditure payback.

There is a huge problem I wish to address. We have to help those who are genuinely fleeing war and persecution, or famine, but, if you take County Laois, for example, the hotel in Monasterevin, which is a few hundred yards over the Kildare border and served a lot of north Laois, is gone for international protection use. The Montague Hotel, which is located on the old Dublin to Limerick and Cork road, is being used. The hotel in the centre of Portlaoise is being used. In the middle of Abbeyleix, the hotel is being used. In Durrow, the hotel is being used. Then one is out into County Kilkenny. Right in a row, five facilities within 40 minutes' drive of one another have been taken out and very little left behind. It is creating real problems. In fact, I tabled an oral question about it this morning, as did a number of Deputies from other parties, and I was trying to watch the screen to see whether it would come up in the Dáil but it was not reached. I understand we are in an emergency situation, but the point I am making is that there is the overall cost, which Mr. McCarthy confirmed was €1.5 billion last year.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

On Ukraine.

For Ukraine alone.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

There was also €640 million, or the figure the Chairman quoted, on IP. It is over €2 billion across the two.

We are looking at nearly €2.2 billion in total. That is a large amount of money. The Exchequer figures are good at the moment, but if there was a dip in the economy - we have seen a dip in some revenue streams in the first quarter of this year, for example, corporation tax, and they may or may not recover - or it tilted in the wrong direction, trying to fund this €2.2 billion or €3 billion per year could start causing problems.

Apart from its cost, this issue is having a wider effect on local economies. It is taking out hotels and other facilities that were creating jobs locally. There are still some jobs, only fewer. There are effects on tourism. North Tipperary was mentioned. If someone stood at the front gate of the Racket Hall Country House Hotel and looked to the right, he or she would be looking straight into County Laois. That hotel served much of south Laois. I have attended weddings and functions for community groups there over the years. Six or seven major facilities have been taken out of the county, with very little left behind. This is happening more widely as well.

We need to try to accelerate things. There have been discussion documents and the report made recommendations. I believe the report was chaired by a retired judge by the name of May.

Mr. David Delaney

Dr. Catherine Day.

Day, not May.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

She is a former European Commission Secretary General.

That report has been in place for a number of years. Let us act on it. Mr. McCarthy has provided a progress report. Perhaps he could revert to the committee with a note providing further details.

Another issue that arises-----

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

On that point, we support the Chair's comments, which is why-----

There were two main reasons for them.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

-----the objective is to try to reduce the reliance on commercial and private providers.

There is another area of concern. We want to help genuine applicants, and I understand that takes time. We have been told this morning of it taking 16 months, with an average time of 14 months. That is certainly different information than we have seen in answers to questions in other forums. The impression given to the public is that it only takes a number of weeks. I understand there is a right of appeal and so on, but when the Department last appeared before us, its representatives said in response to a question from me that there was one person who had been in the system for 15 years. Is that person still there?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I do not know if it is the same person - I assume it is - but there is still an outlier who has been there for a considerable length of time.

Has that person's application been decided on?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

We understand that individual received status in April 2023.

It has been decided on and the person has received status, but there are more than 100 applicants that have received negative decisions and gone through the appeals process, if I heard what the witnesses outlined to us correctly.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

It is of that order, yes.

Unfortunately, my hearing is not always 100%.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

To clarify, a small number have received refusals and are still in our accommodation. It has been the experience that, if people receive refusals, they tend to leave our accommodation.

What happens if their applications have been refused?

Mr. David Delaney

To clarify, we have approximately 29,000 people accommodated in our system currently. One hundred is a relatively small number.

I understand that.

Mr. David Delaney

In any given week, fortnight or month, there could well be a few hundred more ending their status in the process. There is a relatively steady throughput and we would expect to have that number in the system at any point in time. When people receive their final negative decisions – they could receive many throughout the process, but the final one means that all appeals have been exhausted – they generally move on quickly themselves.

“Move on”, but they have been refused the right to stay in Ireland. Move on to where?

Mr. David Delaney

The individuals still have free will. They can move on to wherever they see fit. Obviously, some move back to their countries of origin-----

Another Department appeared before us lately-----

Mr. David Delaney

-----and some may choose to move elsewhere.

I am trying to figure out what is going on. Another Department appeared before us lately and told us that applicants got a letter saying they had to leave the State. If applicants are in direct provision or accommodation under Mr. Delaney's Department, do they not receive a letter telling them to leave the State? Is there any monitoring of whether they leave? If someone has gone through the appeals process and been refused, it means they do not have a case. I preface this by saying that those who have a case must be helped. If there are more than 100 applicants who have received negative decisions, it means there are 100 genuine people who may not have any accommodation and are sleeping in one of those tents that we can see from the top of this building. That is the problem we are coming up against. Why is there no joined-up thinking between the Department of Justice and the witnesses' Department in terms of enforcing these decisions? Who is there? Are the decisions not being enforced?

Mr. David Delaney

They very much are. To clarify and give the Chair a bit of comfort on this, there is a weekly meeting between officials from my Department and officials from the Department of Justice to ensure a joined-up approach. On a given week, 100 people or more could receive their final negative decisions. Having about-----

Are those acted on?

Mr. David Delaney

Those are acted on very quickly.

In what kind of timeline?

Mr. David Delaney

Some people may take judicial reviews, and we have to take that into account, but people are contacted in a matter of days or weeks and made aware that it is time for them to leave the accommodation system. Receiving a final decision does not necessarily mean a deportation order has been issued. That could be the final moment when someone is told he or she must leave the State.

I do not want to get into too much detail, but at certain points in the system, applicants may withdraw. That does not mean they have to leave the State. It just means they have decided to withdraw from-----

Obviously, the person who has been there for 15 years has received a positive decision. That is okay, as it has been established that the person has a right to be here, but it is important that that person be integrated into wider society in some way or other. I do not want Mr. Delaney to give any details about who the person is or describe him or her, but-----

Mr. David Delaney

I could describe broadly-----

-----it just seems like a ridiculous amount of time.

Mr. David Delaney

Without getting into that aspect of it, I will discuss the Chair's very good point about integration and moving into a community and society. We employ two NGOs to work with people who receive status and help them to integrate, go through the HAP process and whatever other-----

How many applicants are still there after five years?

Mr. David Delaney

I might have that information elsewhere. If the Chair lets me-----

Mr. Delaney might revert to me.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

We have 193 who have been there for more than three years. I do not have the five-year figures. There are 636 who have been there for two to three years, there are 2,192 who have been there for one to two years, and there are 2,893 who have been there for less than a year. The largest category is less than a year.

Can this be flagged up with the Department of Justice actively so that, after appeals or judicial reviews, these cases are processed quickly? It is creating a bottleneck in the system and needs to be dealt with more quickly.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Regarding the number with deportation orders in our accommodation, we have some information from the Department of Justice. In April, there have been 204. That is more than the figure of 100.

And those are being followed up on weekly.

Mr. David Delaney

Absolutely.

I thank the witnesses. I will now allow a second round of questions, with five minutes per member.

I wish to get my head around the issue of the inspections that were conducted. The Irish Refugee Council said that 30 inspection reports had been published, but the witnesses dispute that and say there were 105 inspections. What is the reason for only 30 inspection reports being published? Are there a further 75 reports somewhere that could prove there were other inspections? Were there actually 105 inspections or are the witnesses including in that number staff members making visits that were not actually inspections? Are there 105 inspection reports available, with only 30 of them having been published?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

The 105 breaks down as 55 that were conducted by our own international protection staff and 50 that were conducted by QTS Limited, which was the contracted inspection company we were using. I will have to establish the details, but it may just be the case that there is a backlog in inspection reports awaiting publication. We can clarify that.

Please. Returning to my original question, what is the total cost of private emergency accommodation for 2023 and this year so far?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Is the Deputy referring to commercial accommodation for international protection applicants or Ukrainians?

International protection applicants.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Some €627 million is the cost of commercial-----

That was 2023. Thus far this year?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Is the Deputy looking for the Ukrainian figure as well?

Mr. McCarthy can give that as well.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

It is €1.112 billion.

That was for 2023. What about 2024?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

To date in 2024 it is €214 million.

Is it €240 million?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

No, €214 million.

Right. What is the figure for Ukraine for 2024?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

We will get that figure for the Deputy.

Okay. Then there is the State-run international protection accommodation service, IPAS, centres. It comes back to my very first question on the comparison between the costs for State-run and private emergency accommodation. Can we have the total for the State-run IPAS centres-----

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

We will get that figure for the Deputy.

I asked that earlier. I thought the officials were going to get the breakdown.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

The figure we got was the breakdown per unit. Is the Deputy looking for the global figure?

Yes, for 2023 and 2024. I can wait.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Yes, bear with us.

While the officials are looking for that, I have a question on the White Paper on plans for State-run accommodation. The Chair asked whether it was for build or buy. I am just concerned that the witness's answer was not very clear. If it is for buying accommodation, will the Department be targeting hotels? Consider what happened with the D Hotel. It was sold in October and somebody bought it with the intention of applying for the contract. Is that scenario still going to be wide open even with the new plans for State-run accommodation whereby hotels think they can make an absolute fortune by flogging the hotel in the town, or other local big businesses believing they can make a killing financially, and then that service is gone out of the community? Is that scenario still going to be available under this? People have the impression that it was going to be for building accommodation more than-----

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

There will be a combination. As my colleague said, the intention is a multi-strand approach that will involve a mix of development, the offer of turnkey properties, and acquisitions. As I mentioned earlier, one of the key criteria the Government included as part of the overall agreement and the new strategy is that if a hotel is the remaining hotel in a town we will stay away from that.

But there is no guarantee that the Department would do that. That is not what happened in Drogheda.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Which predated that Government decision.

Well just ever so slightly.

Mr. David Delaney

I will just give a bit of context. This is a very different type of thing and a different process in that we would be going out to the market to purchase as opposed to going out to the market to lease to us. We do not want to commit to what type of properties we could potentially focus on because that might stimulate the market to over charge or over price. It is absolutely the case that cost effectiveness will be a big factor here.

I think they have fairly got the suss on that already.

Mr. David Delaney

We would hope there will be a lot of interest in this, which will allow us to look for cost-effective solutions and allow us to apply a geographical priority to take on board population densities in areas. The bottom line is-----

But the Department is not ruling out buying up hotels or any other major amenities within communities.

Mr. David Delaney

We are not ruling anything in or out. We are saying that we are looking for cost-effectiveness and we are going to take on board population densities as a factor on this, which we probably could not do in other decision making. This is the reason for that thought process.

My time is running out but I am waiting for the figures.

Mr. David Delaney

We will get those to the Deputy.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

The spend on international protection to the end of March is €219 million.

Is this for State-run accommodation?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

This is overall.

Will Mr. McCarthy call out the figure again?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

It is €219 million on international protection under E4. We will just need to get a more detailed breakdown for the Deputy.

I am sorry but is that €219 million on international protection for when?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

To the end of March.

Is that this year?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

The first three months of this year, yes.

Okay. The witnesses will get the figures to me for 2023.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Yes.

I call Deputy Verona Murphy.

I am sorry I thought I was next.

I will take members in order.

If Deputy Kelly is next-----

No. I will go after Deputy Murphy. I bow to her.

If the Deputy needs to leave early, there is no problem.

I will go next.

I will just be five minutes. I thank Deputy Kelly.

I want to go back to value for money with Mr. McCarthy. Somebody asked for a figure earlier and the witness said it had been provided it confidentially. I have not seen it but I am aware that the contracts that started with emergency accommodation were, to my knowledge, €95 per applicant and four to a room. That is now halved. Is that correct?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I am not in a position to-----

They are my figures. The position now is that it is €45 per applicant and four to a room. There is a reason I ask. These are the figures that were given to me from the people who are owed money and say they have not been paid.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

It may well be that an individual provider - and it depends too on the type of accommodation, whether it is self-catering or fully serviced and so on-----

Whatever it is we will put it down to the fact that it is all of those things. It is not self-catering and it is probably provided for. I would equate it to what service would be provided in a nursing home, for instance. It would be similar, except without the medical care. The reality is that our nursing homes are €900 per room and this contract is working out at €2,660 per room per week. I had asked previously what was the template for establishing these figures. I would consider the operation of a nursing home bed to be one that has excessive cost for everybody, whether it is private or State-run. In fact, the HSE is about €600 more for a bed than the nursing home. We need to discuss value for money and how it is being established. I am not seeing templates across Europe that equate to ours. This is where the terminology comes from of making oligarchs out of someone who, for instance, owns Renvyle. That is first question. Where was the costs established? How did the Department come up with the figure and agreed it?

Is it the State or the Department's decision that it would proceed with agreements or contracts where planning permission is in question, either where there are enforcement proceedings or there are question marks over the planning? The witnesses will be aware of the situation in Wexford where the Department is depending on the competent authority of Wexford County Council and county councils to provide a fire certificate yet the councils do not have the competency to decide whether or not a building is exempt from the planning regulations and it has to be sent to An Bord Pleanála. At least that is what they said. I do not know how the Department has the confidence that Wexford County Council has the competency when it clearly does not and has sent it to An Bord Pleanála. Hence we have people protesting for the 155th day now. They are the questions to which I want a clear understanding. Is the Department is prepared to enter into agreements where there is a question over planning permission in terms of the structure? Is that a "Yes" or a "No"? Will it or will it not? Obviously it is legal and it is a legislative requirement under the planning. How does the Department propose to establish that there is planning in place?

Do entities that are set up out of the jurisdiction - for example, in Dubai - provide the Department with a tax clearance certificate? Does the Department enter into contracts with entities as far away as that, which do not have an Irish arm but happen to be the provider?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

On the last question, anybody we contract with requires the tax clearance certificate from the Irish Revenue Commissioners. That is very clear.

On how we establish costs, as I tried to explain earlier it is based on our assessment of what the market can bear, taking account of our desire to maximise value for money and achieve the best return on our investments - in other words, negotiate the lowest available rate.

How then has the Department established the figure to halve it? How has it gone from €95 to €45 within a one year period where accommodation is at a premium?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

We can share with the committee the rate card we operate to-----

Has the Department reduced the money that it is paying? Do not tell me the figure. Has the Department reduced it significantly?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

We may have entered contracts in the early stages of this that did not represent value for money. In renewing those contracts we would have renegotiated in line with our standard rate card. Absolutely. I perhaps misunderstood where the question was coming from. There would absolutely be instances where in renewing the contract we insisted on adherence to a rate card that had not originally been adhered to in the teeth of the initial emergency crisis.

Part of that was down to our desperation in the early days to procure a bed-----

I would have thought that is twice.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

-----and a less standardised approach. We have been in a position to improve our process as we have gone on, and as we renew contracts, to ensure that all contracts are compliant with our standard rate card requirements.

The planning is also significant.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

On the planning, obviously we would want to be satisfied that planning requirements are met when we are contracting but I am aware that we are in at least one location where there is disputed planning. The matter is before An Bord Pleanála.

How and when did that happen?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

We would have acted on the basis of assurances from the provider in respect of planning exemptions.

Is it Ryevale House, as previously mentioned?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

It is, yes.

The Department was fully aware of the issue and undertook from the contractor that it would be rectified. That is not how it works. If I build a house and subsequently apply for planning permission, there are rules and planning regulations in place for a reason. The reason I say that everything about this whole process has caused division with the communities is that it is one rule for the Department and another rule for them. This is where the divisiveness stems from and then the people who protest are called names.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

In a case like that, we would have formed our own view, based on the independent consultant's report and so on, as to whether the building was likely to qualify for the planning exemption. That is a contested one and An Bord Pleanála will now decide.

Chair, this is really important.

Other members may give me a bit of latitude to finalise my questions because the issue is pertinent to how we move forward with accommodation. Does the Department intend to enter further contracts where there are questions with planning?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

As I said, we would look to avoid those sorts of situations. We would look to have an assurance that the property either qualifies for the appropriate planning exemption or planning for-----

I ask Mr. McCarthy to say a simple sentence - that the Department intends to comply with the law.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Absolutely, yes.

The case referred to is before An Bord Pleanála.

In fairness to the witnesses, they have supplied us with a lot of data, unlike some witnesses who have come before us previously, and we have been able to access data. I appreciate that, even though we have some concerns as a committee.

I do not have time to get all the information I request, so I will ask to have some information sent to us later. Will Mr. McCarthy provide a list of all the buildings being used in either of the programmes that have asbestos in their roofs or other parts of the buildings?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Yes.

The Department does not necessarily survey the buildings but it works in conjunction with local authorities and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. If Mr. McCarthy does not know the answer, he should ask them and then revert to the committee. The presence of asbestos is sometimes used as an excuse for not using a building. I would like to know whether buildings are being used that actually have asbestos in them because that would be a contradiction.

Deputy John McGuinness raised in the Dáil the number of people who proposed various buildings over the last couple of years. They went through a five-stage process and spent a considerable amount of money but the buildings were not used. While it is not a question, I am concerned about what went on in that regard. Every case is individual but I flag that as a concern because people had expectations and spent a considerable amount of money. I hope the numbers involved were small.

I have a question for Mr. Delaney and Ms Rooney on the criteria used. Criteria are applied on both sides of the fence, as it were, regarding how the Department takes accommodation. I accept that some of those criteria predate them. Can the Department furnish those criteria to the committee? My question is a very simple and appropriate and perhaps I should have asked it earlier. I ask for the criteria that have been in place since the beginning of this Government's term and a chronological list setting the times those criteria have been changed. Obviously, we have the war and an increase in the numbers seeking international protection. Transparency is our friend and would help the Department.

I also seek the criteria used for modular developments, both the type of accommodation and the sites, and for a refurbishment programme. I presume this relates to unused accommodation in other areas. It would be useful for the committee to have information on all of the different criteria used.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

We can provide that.

According to the documentation, there have been over 100 expressions of interest in providing modular developments. What is the exact figure? Over 100 could mean 1,000. Is the figure 110, 140 or 150? How many are there? As this is a sensitive matter, I have asked for information on the number of people coming in under both categories, broken down by local electoral area. That information will be taken into account when the Department decides where to work with people to build modular homes. Have local authorities been informed of the possible locations of the more than 100 modular spaces? I presume the answer is "Yes".

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Yes, they have.

There is communication with the local authorities.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

There is. My colleague will give more details on the process.

I ask Ms Rooney to be quick.

Ms Sheenagh Rooney

A lot of the detail the Deputy requested is published on gov.ie in terms of our criteria. I think the best thing to do would be just to send the Deputy all the published detail on what is accepted for refurbishment and how the process works.

No. That is not what I want. I ask the officials to do specifically what I ask because otherwise we will end up doing the work. I ask for a list setting out, since the beginning of this Government, the criteria used for the two different categories and the dates on which they changed, right up to today.

Ms Sheenagh Rooney

The criteria for commercial accommodation was first published on the offers portal in 2023. Prior to that it was not published.

I am sorry but I am caught for time. Does Ms Rooney have something to say about modular locations?

Ms Sheenagh Rooney

Local authorities are part of that process.

Nowhere in Ireland is the relevant local authority not aware that a modular unit may be located in its area.

Ms Sheenagh Rooney

All of the information on what we have received has been sent to local authorities.

Perfect. That is all I wanted to know.

My last question is on the hotels refurbishment programme. In fairness, the officials have been very transparent today in terms of figures. Is it fair to say that it would be a plan to decongregate or get away from the use of hotels as the numbers of Ukrainians recede?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Yes.

I used to work in Bord Fáilte and Fáilte Ireland. What meetings and-or communications took place between the departmental officials and officials from Fáilte Ireland from day one, particularly when we were taking Ukrainian refugees? I have tabled a number of parliamentary questions on the number of hotels that registered, de-registered, moved on, etc. What meetings took place between Fáilte Ireland and Department officials, including from the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, and Minister to Minister? Has Fáilte Ireland expressed any concern about the capacity of tourism, particularly in counties Kerry, Clare, Mayo, etc., because of the volume of people moving in to tourism accommodation? Have tourism or departmental officials expressed any concern? Perhaps "concern" is the wrong word. Has there been interaction to see how accommodation can be managed better? Tourism is an essential product, particularly in the west and certain other parts of this country.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

The short answer is "Yes". There has been quite an amount of engagement, over time, on sharing data and obviously sharing concerns and expressing concerns at different stages.

I ask that the information I requested be provided.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

We can do that.

I thank the officials for their time.

Will the Department also provide information on the percentage of tourist accommodation being used? Is it 10% or 12%?

Ms Sheenagh Rooney

I think the most recent data showed it was 11% of registered accommodation but that figure will have decreased.

A question was asked about local authorities being notified. That issue needs to be watched.

I speak from first-hand experience on this. Local authorities being notified means the county manager being notified as the chief officer, but the legal local authority is actually the elected members and they are often in the dark. They read it in the local newspaper. I am just making the point it is the elected members who are entitled to know. The cathaoirleach of the council and the cathoirleachs of the municipal districts are the legal council that needs to be notified. Deputy Ó Cathasaigh has five minutes.

No, sorry. Deputy Ó Cathasaigh is next.

It is on a point of clarity.

Very briefly.

I said Renvyle House, which is in Connemara. The planning issue pertains to Ryevale in Leixlip.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

That is what I took the Deputy to be referring to.

I am going to get into that question.

I want clarification of something the Taoiseach said in the Dáil yesterday. I want to fact-check the figures with the witnesses. I think the Taoiseach said 15 Ukrainian people coming here under the temporary protection directive are arriving per day and 45 leave State-provided accommodation. This gives a net figure of 175 fewer people per week in State-provided accommodation. Is that accurate? Is that the officials' understanding from a departmental point of view?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Yes. We can share figures.

Ms Sheenagh Rooney

That is more or less accurate. The only reason I am hesitating is it changes every day-----

Of course it does.

Ms Sheenagh Rooney

-----so obviously he would have been quoting the weekly average for last week.

Where are we at then with the overall number of beneficiaries of temporary protection in State-provided accommodation? Where did it top out at and where is it currently?

Ms Sheenagh Rooney

To give an example, in November 2023 we had approximately 60,000 people in State-serviced accommodation and now we are down to just under 50,000 so there are about 10,000 fewer people in that State-serviced accommodation on the Ukraine side.

One of the issues that makes the provision of long-term accommodation under the temporary protection directive more challenging is the fact we do not really have clear sight of what is going to happen beyond March 2025 when the directive falls out of force. Looking at some of the long-term solutions, my local authority has been looking at projects that would not deliver within 12 months. They would be well worth bringing back into use, but the officials there are wondering whether it is worth their while if we have a 12-month or 18-month lead-in, which would not be unusual with difficult properties. Has the Department any kind of line of sight from a European level? It certainly does not look like the war in Ukraine is coming to an end any time soon. Is it legally permissible to extend that temporary protection directive? Can we give a clear line of sight to people, basically, on where we are going here?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

First, it will obviously be a policy matter for Government and governments across Europe to decide what happens and what the legal framework is around what they want to happen beyond March 2025. We are not in a position to say anything about that, other than that the Minister, Deputy McEntee, participates in those discussions at European level. There will be policy calls made domestically and nationally and every member state will consider how transition beyond either the expiry of the temporary protection directive or through some extension. Certainly from our point of view, the policy change and direction of travel in terms of arrival rates and the numbers we are seeing leaving our accommodation leads us to be thinking about a future phase that involves a much greater movement to independence among those BOTPs who are here, and that is what we will be supporting. There is not an entitlement to accommodation under the temporary protection directive-----

No, but things like the right to work-----

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

-----unlike international protection, where there is a clear legal entitlement to accommodation. That obviously becomes part of the thinking as well about future options.

The right to work and the right to remain will come into play and be a big issue.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Absolutely.

I want to touch on another issue. I apologise if it has been raised. I was following the meeting in my office, but I may have missed it. It is about the inspection at ECCE level. Some 16% were found to be major non-compliant when inspected, which is a worry. With the community childcare subvention plus saver scheme 20% were found to major non-compliant. What is the repercussion if a service provider is found to be major non-compliant? What is the immediate repercussion and what is the follow-up? How is it ensured the provider comes into compliance thereafter? That is a worrying level of negative results. Is our inspection regime deep enough? If one in five is going down on inspection, or one in six, I would like to ensure as many of these as possible are inspected.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I have just a couple of points to make on that and then I might ask my colleague to come in. We have had an independent review, or commissioned a review, of our compliance regime. Mazars have reported to us on that. We are satisfied from that the level of inspection coverage and quantity-----

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

-----is appropriate. There are issues around compliance and non-compliance levels in the sector. The first port of call in respect of non-compliance findings is to work with providers to ensure they rectify any issues of non-compliance.

Okay, but translate that into language-----

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Two things-----

-----that I can understand. I do not understand what "major non-compliance" means.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Two things. Support and training for providers where it is a simple issue of not understanding what the requirements were or not meeting the requirement to provide information where it should have provided information. It is about issues of that nature. If it is a question of overcharging or wrong reporting of attendance, etc., there is a facility within our early years platform for rectification within that funding periods, so providers will rectify themselves and the recruitment happens immediately.

Of the one in six found to be non-compliant, how many of them came back into compliance subsequently after the engagement with the Department? Are these all faults that are quickly remedied, as in, there has been a misunderstanding here, the paperwork has been wrong and so on, or are there repercussions for people who continue in a state of non-compliance?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Providers go onto a compliance framework where they are supported in rectifying those issues. If there is consistent or continual non-compliance, compliance sanctions will begin to kick in and under the core funding model we can withhold up to 6% or apply a sanction of up to 6% of funding. That is the principle sanction that comes into play.

How many have received the financial penalty? Would that be helpful?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

That is a new feature by the way, so I am not sure any sanction has been applied as yet.

So there is a bit of detail around what sanctions have been there.

Ms Brooks was hoping to come in on it.

Deputy Catherine Murphy is next.

Will the Department send us a note on the contractual basis for the number of contracted beds versus the occupancy? Does it pay if they are not fully occupied? I ask for a note on that so we can see for ourselves. Will the officials also provide us a note on how the Department satisfies itself on the exemptions and the planning? For example, I know of a couple of instances where properties were said to be former bed and breakfasts even though they were not. How does the Department satisfy itself on that? Will it also send us a note on the modular homes and the costs and numbers? Is the tax clearance certificate the only issue the Department satisfies itself on where the providers are concerned or does it look at other issues? If so, what are they?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

We also look for company registration details from providers if it is a limited company.

What if the company keeps changing directors?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

From a tax clearance or tax compliance point of view, tax clearance certification is required from the provider we contract with, so if the entity changes there should be new contract.

Is it then on the individual or the company?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

It is the company.

It is the company. If that company fundamentally changes, such as where there is a front person and they get a tax clearance certificate and then the beneficial owner comes in and swaps in their name, is the Department required to be notified of those kind of changes? Some of these look like Lanigan's Ball.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I am not sure we are required to be notified of changes in company ownership but if there is an issue of concern, there is a facility for us to check either the register of beneficial ownership the Department of enterprise operates or to take up issue with the Director of Corporate Enforcement if it is a broader corporate compliance concern we have, or that is brought to our attention.

Will Mr. McCarthy give us a note on the tax clearance approach in order that we can go into it in greater detail? So much of this is internal. The Comptroller and Auditor General will probably be the one who sees more detail. Would he see those inspection reports about non-compliance? We saw one last week that gave us significant concerns and details. What does he see? Is there something he does to identify the kinds of controls that should be there and where there are deficiencies?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

In normal testing we would not look at that level of detail. However, in the work we are doing with regard to contracts this year, we will be looking at inspection reports.

Is that on samples?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes, it is on a sample basis. That would be the thing. We will try to look at the full control regime that is in place. We will also be looking to see that there was follow up on the aspects of inspection reports where items are picked up and require a follow up in those circumstances.

On the same matter, the Department obviously gets these reports. Does it go through the reports? What is the sanction where high levels of non-compliance and serious concerns are found? There are people who have been in hospitality, which is a different thing, but there are others involved in this who have had no relationship in dealing with individuals. I would regard the word "speculator" as appropriate. What does the Department do to satisfy itself when it sees inspection reports? What sanctions are there to ensure it is getting what it is contracting for?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

There are probably slightly different regimes on the international protection and Ukraine sides. We can give a fuller description. On the international protection side, there is direct engagement with the provider management in respect of issues identified in inspection reports. From a risk profiling point of view, we would ensure, where there is a concern, that a provider is prioritised for return inspections to see that the issues identified have been rectified or addressed. Ultimately, the sanction is that we terminate the contract. Our contractual provisions allow us to terminate contracts at one month's notice.

Mr. McCarthy has told us they have not done any on the international protection side.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

We have not done it on the international protection side. On the Ukraine side we have, where we had significant concerns that could not be rectified or where the provider was not willing to rectify. We terminated in those instances.

When he tells us the number of inspections, does that include repeat inspections? Deputy Munster looked for information on that. Are there premises that have been inspected multiple times and have shown failures?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

It does include return and repeat inspections.

Are they counted separately?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

The figure of 105 is the number of inspections conducted, but that is not necessarily the number of providers inspected. There may be a provider that was inspected twice.

The ones that are repeat inspections-----

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

We can get the Deputy that breakdown. I do not have that right now.

I ask that we be provided with that breakdown. It is important.

I turn to the figure asked for earlier about the cost of IPAS to the State and the private ones for the first quarter of this year. That is what Deputy Munster was looking for.

We have the cost of the private emergency accommodation for 2023 and 2024. However, I did not get a clear total cost of the State-run IPAS centres for 2023 and 2024.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

We have the figure for State-run centres, which is €13.7 million for 2023 and €4.5 million to date in 2024.

Sorry, will Mr. McCarthy repeat that, please?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

It is €4.5 million to date in 2024.

Where are the State facilities? Are they leased or purchased?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

They are State-owned facilities. That is what we describe them as.

Where are they at this point?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

We have Athlone and Knockalisheen.

Mr. David Delaney

We can probably provide the Cathaoirleach with a list.

What was the premises in Athlone beforehand?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I could not say. It has been years.

Mr. David Delaney

Athlone was a greenfield site and units were put on it. Knockalisheen is similar. It, too, was a greenfield site.

I have a question about funding for youth projects. The Department gives funding to Pobal and the education and training boards, ETBs. I am looking at the figures for funding for youth work in counties Laois and Offaly. They are the two counties with the highest percentage of ten- to 24-year-olds and they consistently receive the lowest level of funding. In 2021 the total amount of funding was €427,000 for the ETB in both counties. At the time, that equated to €13.68 per person for young people aged between ten years old and 24 years old, which I understand are the relevant ones. It was 69% less than the average of €43.84. The population of Laois-Offaly has increased by 59,590, or 32%, from the figure recorded in the previous census. If you separate out County Laois, the population increased by 73% between 1996 and 2022. Mr. McCarthy will get the point I am making. When you look at those statistics, it is the area with the fastest-growing population and the lowest amount of funding. It has the highest percentage of people between the ages of ten and 24. According to Pobal, in 2021 Laois-Offaly received €427,253, which equates to the figure of €13.68 to which I referred. However, an ETB at the top of the list received €162.57. You can work down the list looking at the level of funding for the different ETBs. Why is that? What is happening there? It has the lowest level of funding by any measure, if the 2021 figures are anything to go by.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

We can certainly come back to the Cathaoirleach on this. There is no doubt youth services are inconsistent across the country. I earlier referred to the review under way of the youth services supports grant, for example.

Per head of population of young people aged between ten years and 24 years, there is 12 times more going to one ETB, namely, the City of Dublin Education and Training Board, CDETB, than there is going to Laois and Offaly Education and Training Board, LOETB. That is 12 times the amount.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Part of the problem the Cathaoirleach is hitting on is that allocations are, to a large extent, historically based. It is one of the issues we need to look at and address, both as part of the review of the UBU scheme and broader overall youth services funding.

Youth Work Ireland has been trying to address this. The ETB has been trying to do it. Laois and Offaly ETB is progressive and active. In the past ten years, it has dramatically expanded the number of areas it covers. It administers the funding and this is causing a problem locally in terms of funding projects. The funding is critical for Youth Work Ireland, Foróige and local clubs. I do not want to make a parochial complaint, but these figures have been raised in a number of different forums. Youth Work Ireland has raised the issue with officials. Will Mr. McCarthy also send me the figures for 2022 and 2023, and any projection for 2024, if there is one available? That graph shows each ETB and the level of funding going to each one. There needs to be some explanation as to how counties Laois and Offaly finished up in this situation. The number of young people in the population in County Laois increased by 73% between 1996 and 2022. It has the highest percentage of young people.

There are estates in the town where I live that contain 600 and 700 houses but that have no facilities. This is really important. Towns like Mountmellick and Portarlington have very little - almost nothing - available in this regard. It is the same across County Offaly. Mr. McCarthy can come back to me with the breakdown for those years.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Yes.

Is there an official present who is responsible for this area?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

No. One is not present today.

Can this matter be taken up with the person concerned? I presume it is a principal officer who is responsible.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Yes, and there is assistant secretary leadership as well. We will absolutely do this. We are conscious of the issue raised by the Cathaoirleach. I am at the disadvantage that I do not have the table he is reading from in front of me, so I am reluctant to comment. We will, however, come back to the committee on this issue.

I thank Mr. McCarthy. Representatives from Tusla were before the committee recently. I wish to say two things about this matter. The first concerns unaccompanied minors arriving in Ireland. They arrive and become Tusla's responsibility to deal with, home and process. These minors are, literally, landed at its front door. Supervision must be provided for these children in bed and breakfast accommodation, which obviously creates great difficulty. Has the Department, which has responsibility for this area, or any Minister or Minister of State made suggestions in this regard? Many of these minors are arriving from Ukraine. I understand that there is a conflict in that country. We need to help people who are genuinely coming from areas impacted by the conflict in Ukraine. However, these children are boarding planes in Ukraine unaccompanied and coming here. Has the Department raised this issue with the Ukrainian embassy? I ask because we have a very active Ukrainian embassy here, and this is good. There are fairly good relations with the Ukrainian diplomats, as I understand it, across the political spectrum. Has this matter been raised by officials with the Ukrainian embassy? I refer to determining why this is happening. If we were to send children or juveniles out to Dublin Airport and they tried to board planes, they would not be allowed on unaccompanied.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Yes. In fairness, part of the problem in respect of the Ukrainian part of this is that these children are not actually travelling from Ukraine. They are coming from elsewhere within the EU. Ukrainian airspace has been closed since the outbreak of the war. There are no flights leaving Ukraine. In that sense, there would be little the Ukrainian authorities could do by way of helping to address the issue.

These children are travelling from Ukraine to other countries.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Yes. They are coming here via other member states.

It is a third-state issue.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Yes. It is obviously an EU-wide issue. Part of the challenge and of the response relates to sharing data across the EU in relation to any child who arrives separated or unaccompanied.

Is the issue being addressed? Is it being highlighted by the officials to the Ukrainian embassy and to other states where children are coming from?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

It is a European-wide issue that all authorities across the Continent-----

I understand that.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

-----are well aware of. There is much interaction across Europe and within the Commission on this issue. As a result, it is not something we need to engage bilaterally on because we engage on it at European level in terms of the overall problem.

There is a need to engage bilaterally because children are arriving here. Witnesses from Tusla were here recently. That organisation is facing a real challenge in terms of dealing with this issue.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Absolutely.

Tusla has a number of challenges, and this is a major issue for it. Trying to provide supervision for these children, in bed and breakfast accommodation and other kinds of temporary accommodation and by means of overnight stays is challenging.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Yes.

I ask the officials responsible deal with this matter-----

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

The numbers coming from Ukraine in this context are decreasing. It is a wider international protection phenomenon at this point.

I also have a question about Tusla in the context of the recruitment of social workers, because they are clearly under pressure. The figures show that there were 57 fewer social workers in recent years, with the number dropping from 1,669 in 2021 to 612 the following year. Again, there is an issue here in relation to staff recruitment, staff training and the workforce supply pipeline. What is the Department doing in this regard? I understand that the Department has many irons in the fire. I would say it has too many because the Department has been handed many different areas to deal with. Is this specific issue being dealt with? If we are not training sufficient numbers of social workers, then there is a problem. Equally, if they are not coming out of this training with career prospects ahead of them, they will be on a plane out of here or gone off to the private sector or somewhere else.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

We engage with Tusla on a considerable range of activities around its workforce supply challenges. Tusla, as its representatives probably described when they were here several weeks ago, has a very active strategy in this regard. We have been working with them and supporting them in the context of-----

Has the Department, which is the lead on this, taken the matter up with the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Yes.

How many extra training places will there be this year compared with last year?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I will confirm the figure. There is a new master's degree programme, which was described to the committee. UCC, Atlantic Technological University Sligo and the Technological University of the Shannon are developing new programmes.

Have those figures for social workers continued to decrease in 2023? I refer to the loss of 57 people in one year.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

The total whole-time-equivalent for social workers is 1,611, which is the same figure as for the end of 2022.

There has been more of a drop.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Tusla has been very active in recruitment. It has a graduate recruitment campaign every year, as the committee is probably aware. It is pretty much making job offers to every social work graduate in the State each year and has been very successful in this endeavour. Retention challenges represent a big part of this issue for the organisation. There is quite a significant turnover, as the Cathaoirleach will know.

Regarding family resource centres, these are funded by the Department.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Yes.

What monitoring is in place of family resource centres in terms of their work or throughput? I refer to how successful they are. Does the Department inspect them?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

They are largely funded by Tusla. In the main, they would be section 56 funded. Tusla would have service agreements in place with each of the providers, which would set out the requirements, and it would gather metrics, etc., in this regard.

Are inspections carried out?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I am not sure what the inspection regime is, but there is certainly engagement with each provider around funding.

Mr. Ó Conaill-----

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I am sorry, the answer to that question is "Yes". There is an annual commissioning review.

Mr. Ó Conaill had indicated. I cannot see all the nameplates.

Mr. Colm Ó Conaill

I wish to come in on what the Secretary General said and the point he covered. To begin with Tusla, in terms of recruitment, overall, there has been a 9% increase in its staff in recent years. There is, though, a problem with retention.

There is a problem with the number of social workers.

Mr. Colm Ó Conaill

In relation to social workers, 217 were recruited last year. There is, though, a retention problem-----

I understand that.

Mr. Colm Ó Conaill

-----because 250 social workers left.

It is a chicken-and-egg situation. If there are not sufficient staff, then people leave the organisation because they are burned out. I ask that the figures be sent on to the committee in relation to the number of extra training places. The issue of the workforce pipeline must be addressed in conjunction with that of retention. If this aspect were got right, then the retention issue would start to fix itself if there are enough staff there.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

There is a dedicated retention team in Tusla, and many measures are being taken to support social workers. We and Tusla recognise that it is difficult work and support is required. This includes addressing the skills-mix and workload challenges and how we can offer support in this regard through the use of other available grades.

I thank Mr. McCarthy for that contribution. I thank all the witnesses.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

I wish to come back in on a point I did not get to earlier. I refer to the matter raised by Deputy Verona Murphy regarding early years services, closures in this area and funding and pay rates in the sector. The Deputy expressed a concern about the significant turnover rates in this area. It is important to acknowledge that, by means of the core funding model and the negotiation of new employment regulation orders, there has been an increase in pay.

There is an increase in pay for 70% of staff in the sector. There is a new employment regulation order, ERO, on the way. Under the core funding model, no provider should be less well off. All providers will have seen an increase in support and funding through the Department of public expenditure and reform.

Are all those providers who are in receipt of State funding compelled to pay the employment regulation order rate?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Yes.

Does Dr. Brooks agree?

Dr. Anne-Marie Brooks

Whether or not they are in receipt of State funding, providers will be required to pay those rates of pay.

Are they complying?

Dr. Anne-Marie Brooks

That is a matter for the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC. The WRC would monitor compliance but it is a statutory requirement to pay those rates.

Okay.

I thank the witnesses from the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and Ms Lawless and Mr. Hurley from the Department of public expenditure and reform for their attendance. I also thank the Comptroller and Auditor General and Mr. John Crean for attending today. Is it agreed that the clerk will seek any follow-up information and carry out any agreed actions arising the meeting? Agreed. Is it also agreed that we publish the opening statements and briefings provided for today's meeting? Agreed.

The witnesses withdrew.
Sitting suspended at 12.51 p.m. and resumed at 1.40 p.m.
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