Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action debate -
Tuesday, 14 Feb 2023

Building Reform Regulations: Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage

Chairman

The purpose of the meeting is to discuss the built environment sector as it relates to climate and the challenges we face in that regard. We will have a particular focus on the climate action plan that was published before Christmas. On behalf of the committee, from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage I welcome Ms Sarah Neary, principal officer, Mr. Sean Armstrong, senior adviser, Mr. John Wickham, senior adviser and Ms Margaret Power, assistant principal officer.

I remind our guests of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in regard to an identifiable person or entity, I will direct them to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members of the committee are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are only allowed to participate in the meeting if they are physically located on the Leinster House complex. In this regard, I ask members who are joining us online, prior to making their first contribution, to confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

I call Mr. Armstrong to make his opening statement.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

I thank members for the opportunity to address the joint committee on building regulations and building control reforms, and how these can contribute to climate action targets. I am joined by Ms Sarah Neary, Mr. John Wickham and Ms Margaret Power.

The Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage is implementing a range of ambitious decarbonisation actions for housing. These are outlined in the climate action plan for 2023. The delivery of affordable and quality housing under Housing for All and addressing climate action are the two key challenges for Government at this time. Housing for All takes account of our climate action targets though the following policies. The implementation of nearly zero energy buildings, NZEB, through our building regulations will ensure that all new housing delivered under Housing for All is typically A-rated and that we will also build healthy, sustainable and durable buildings suitable for the Irish climate, both today and into the future. The Department's retrofitting programme for local authority housing is an essential measure to tackle energy poverty and provide good comfort levels for the local authority tenants. The Department plans to retrofit approximately 26%, or 36,500, local authority dwellings not currently performing to a building energy rating of B2 to the B2, or cost-optimal level, by 2030 at an estimated cost of approximately €1.2 billion.

In conjunction with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, we are also working hard to implement a range of measures to support modern methods of construction under Housing for All, which includes timber-frame dwellings. As part of these initiatives, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage will publish plans and guidance documents shortly to enable a significant increase in the delivery of local authority housing in 2023 using modern methods of construction.

The Department has lead responsibility for the energy performance of buildings directive in Ireland. Since the first enactment of the energy performance of buildings directive in 2002, Ireland has implemented the building energy rating, BER, system for new and existing buildings that are rented or sold since 2007. Just over 1 million dwellings now have BERs. We have introduced requirements for NZEBs, for buildings other than dwellings in 2017 and dwellings in 2019. As a result of these NZEB performance requirements, heat pumps are now installed in 86% of new dwellings. It is expected that all fossil fuel boilers will be fully phased out of new dwellings by the end of next year.

We have set the building regulations performance requirement for major renovations where more than 25% of the surface area of a building is renovated to a B2 rating or to achieve the cost-optimal level. We have also set the requirement that electric vehicle charging infrastructure be installed in all new dwellings with a car parking space within the curtilage, new buildings or buildings undergoing major renovation with more than ten parking spaces in 2021 and in certain existing non-residential buildings from 2025. We have introduced regulations that allow efficient district heating systems using unavoidable waste heat to fulfil the renewable requirements of Part L of the building regulations.

We support the proposals for the review of the energy performance of buildings directive that also align with the climate action plan and Housing for All. We are supportive of the proposals for zero emissions buildings, minimum energy performance standards for existing buildings, declarations of life cycle global warming potential for new buildings and further requirements for electric vehicle recharging infrastructure. Ireland will commence the transposition of this directive after it is adopted by the European Union institutions this summer.

The European Commission has initiated a review of the construction products regulation, CPR, confirmed by the European green deal and the circular economy action plan. A revised CPR will address environmental aspects of construction products and will bring into effect a harmonised method for assessing and communicating the environmental performance of construction products. These policies will be implemented through the European Communities Acts regulations, and our building regulations and will be underpinned by our building control system.

In the context of building control reform, a range of initiatives that focus on ensuring strong and effective regulation in the building control system and the construction industry and on improving compliance with building regulations have been implemented since 2014. This includes: implementation of the Building Control (Amendment) Regulations 2014, SI No. 9/2014, which empower competence and professionalism in construction projects and establish a chain of responsibility that begins with the owner; the creation of the national building control management project and the establishment of the National Building Control and Market Surveillance Office to provide oversight, support and direction for the development, standardisation and implementation of building control as an effective shared service in the 31 building control authorities; and the enactment in July 2022 of the Regulation of Providers of Building Works and Miscellaneous Provisions Act 2022. This Act develops and promotes a culture of competence, good practice and compliance with the building regulations in the construction sector. The Act will place the Construction Industry Register Ireland on a statutory footing and aims to benefit consumers and the general public by giving those who engage a registered builder the assurance that they are dealing with a competent and compliant operator.

To further strengthen the building control system, the Department and Minister are developing proposals for the establishment of an independent building standards regulator. The objective is to ensure that this body will have sufficient breadth of scope, effective powers of inspection and enforcement and an appropriate suite of sanctions available to it. Having a strong and effective building control system and statutory register requiring minimum competence for providers of building services will support development of the skills required to achieve the climate action plan targets for buildings relating to retrofitting, installation of renewable energy sources and NZEBs.

The Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage is committed to the implementation of ambitious targets in buildings for climate action through building regulations and the next iteration of the energy performance of buildings directive. We are happy to address any questions the committee may have.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Armstrong. I will now invite members to indicate to ask questions. I might go first.

I had hoped to ask the witnesses about planning of siting of buildings as well, but it is probably on me that guidance did not go to them. If they are happy to answer questions in that area, I certainly would facilitate that. From a climate point of view, it is critically important where we put buildings, which is a separate thing to how we build them, how we value the carbon in them and so on. If they have anything to say on it, I would appreciate it. However, if not, it might be something we return to.

With respect to the NZEB standard, it is good that we have it in place now and anything being built now is being built to that standard. From an operational point of view, they will be very low carbon. There is a question around the non-operational carbon, that is, the carbon that is entailed in the manufacture of the materials that go into buildings as well. It would be interesting to hear how the witnesses seek to capture that and mitigate carbon use in materials. It seems that we have a huge opportunity to move from a concrete-oriented construction sector to one that has much more timbre in it.

Sticking with the embodied carbon piece, there is also the existing building stock.

I would be interested in hearing the Department's representatives' thoughts on the creation of a system that values the carbon that is locked into the buildings we already have. Is the Department doing anything to introduce a system to allow us to determine the amount of carbon locked into a project proposed for demolition and whether that proposal makes sense in that light? If you pull that carbon into the equation, especially with regard to brand new buildings, it may not actually make sense to proceed. I am interested in whether the Department is doing any work in that area.

On building control, historically, we have not been very good at building control in this country, unlike in the UK where the local authority system is very strong on building control and where local authorities have very active building control offices that inspect buildings being built, are very involved from early on and ultimately assess what is built from a quality point of view. What is the Department doing to improve building control in this country?

Mr. Seán Armstrong

I am happy to take the questions on embodied carbon and existing buildings. I will let my colleagues, Ms Neary and Mr. Wickham, address the questions on building control.

Chairman

Is the planning piece something the Department will address another day?

Mr. Seán Armstrong

The planning division has given us some briefing material. I can give the committee that material but the planning division is not here today.

Chairman

We can have that division in again. If Mr. Armstrong is happy to speak to the issue, I ask him to please do so.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

I will give the Chair the high-level briefing I received from the planning division. The committee may need to bring any further detailed questions to the planning division. On embodied carbon, as the Chair has correctly pointed out, there are several aspects to the issue. Key initiatives from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage include regulatory accounting for embodied carbon and the development of alternatives to the traditional technologies we have used. Under Housing for All, modern methods of construction are considered key in supporting the delivery of housing. They improve delivery times and have the potential to reduce costs while also enabling circularity and the use of embodied carbon in construction. Under Housing for All, a modern methods of construction leadership and integration group has been established. This is led by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and is supported by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. It co-ordinates activities to develop and support modern methods of construction.

Initiatives currently being established and established within the last 12 months include: the recently-launched ConstructInnovate technology centre at the University of Galway, a consortium of the University of Galway, University College Dublin, Trinity College Dublin, University College Cork and the Irish Green Building Council; a national demonstration park for modern methods of construction at the National Construction Training Centre, Mount Lucas in County Offaly; the ongoing operation of the National Construction Training Centre; and the Build Digital Project to support digitisation in construction, which is led by the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. All of these initiatives that Government has put in place to support modern methods of construction will also support the development of off-site technologies, including technologies like timber frame construction.

In addition to building an ecosystem to support modern methods of construction, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage is also going to build capacity in the system by putting in place a procurement programme for modern methods of construction for social housing. Some 30 sites with total potential for up to 1,500 dwellings have been identified and the Department is engaged in the procurement of modern methods of construction for these sites. We expect such procurement in respect of social or local authority housing to take place in the second half of this year, building on the previous existing frameworks for modern methods of construction. We are seeing the work we have done previously having some effect. The Irish Timber Frame Manufacturers Association said five years ago that timber frame housing made up 25% of all new housing being constructed. More recently, it has said it makes up 48%. Creating the infrastructure and ecosystem to support alternative means of construction will help develop technologies that reduce embodied carbon and facilitate circularity.

The second important measure to reduce embodied carbon is the accounting for embodied carbon. The energy performance of buildings directive, which is due to be adopted this summer and so is quite close to coming into operation, proposes that, from 1 January 2027, the global warming potential of buildings over 2,000 sq. m will have to be declared as part of their building energy rating, BER, certificate.

Chairman

That is only for new buildings, is it?

Mr. Seán Armstrong

It will apply to new buildings of more than 2,000 sq. m at first and to all new buildings from 1 January 2030. That is currently proposed in the energy performance of buildings directive. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is leading a working group on the decarbonisation of cement. Members of the group include the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland and the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. The group is looking at initiatives to decarbonise cement through procurement processes.

Chairman

I am mindful of time and want to let my colleagues in but do any of the officials want to address the question of how to account for the carbon locked into the existing building stock? Are we doing anything in that area?

Mr. Seán Armstrong

Again, our planning colleagues are not here but they have given us some briefing material. Most members of the committee will be aware of the objectives under the national planning framework and Housing for All with regard to the efficient use of existing buildings, reducing vacancy and in-fill development schemes. City and county development plans are required to include mandatory objectives to identify areas in need of regeneration, to bring derelict, redundant and underutilised lands, sites and buildings back into active use and to address housing need. This directly aligns with the principles of compact growth, the Town Centre First approach and sustainable development by supporting the urban fabric and re-use of existing resources, reducing the need for greenfield development. The Croí Cónaithe fund has been established to service sites and refurbish vacant properties in regional towns and villages. They are the main initiatives.

Chairman

I know this is not Mr. Armstrong's area so I will not press him on the planning piece. That is all very good. More pertinent to his section is the question of embodied carbon in the existing built environment and how that is accounted for and valued. It seems we may be turning a blind eye to something that is very important there. We would not be alone; as far as I know, very few countries are doing this work. I would have liked to have seen more on this from Europe through the recast of the energy performance of buildings directive as opposed to measures on new construction. It is absolutely right that we ensure everything we build new is energy efficient and is associated with low levels of carbon over its life cycle but it seems there is a missing piece regarding the existing building stock. I am sure my colleagues would welcome the Department conducting research in that area. I certainly would.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

The area of embodied carbon and embodied carbon accounting frameworks is very technical and complex. Such accounting also has a significant market impact. There must be robust and transparent databases in place stating the embodied carbon. There has to be clear, transparent and robust accounting methods for measuring the embodied carbon and it has to be done by experts in this area.

It has to be managed by an independent, trusted authority. Significant work is required to establish embodied carbon measurements for new and existing buildings in a way that can be used on a statutory basis, or for procurement purposes. To establish this in new or existing buildings, these databases, accounting methodologies, software, training of assessors and centralised databases have to be established. I would not say it is easier with the energy efficiency of new and existing buildings, but it is more possible to do it with new buildings, because one has all the information when building them. One has all the data on materials one is using. When establishing a very complex system such as this, the easiest or most direct pathway to establish it is on new buildings, like we did for the BER system, and extend it to existing buildings.

What we can do for existing buildings is develop them in a qualitative way and have policies and principles to support the use of existing buildings while, at the same time, developing the methodologies of databases, starting with new buildings. When we have the systems for new buildings up and running, they should be extended to existing buildings.

Chairman

Will Ms Neary respond briefly to the question on building control?

Ms Sarah Neary

I will take that. The journey of reforming building control probably started back in 2011. Many defects and issues were arising in the previous ten years, with the builds from the early 2000s. After reflecting on the system, a three-point plan was developed, which resulted in SI 9 of the building control regulations in 2014; the development of a shared service for the building control implementation at local authority level; and the concept of a register of competent builders. SI 9 created a responsibility, starting with the owner or initiator of a project, to identify competent people to act at design stage, follow through into construction stage and, ultimately, achieve certification at the end for compliance with building regulations. The Hackitt report, which came out on foot of Grenfell four or five years later, identified that need for a chain of responsibility. Dame Judith Hackitt called it the golden thread of responsibility throughout the process. We established that through SI 9.

With regard to the shared service, each of the 31 local authorities has a building control function and carry out inspections. The local authorities have wide powers of inspection and enforcement under the Building Control Acts. The shared service was a supporting office carrying out training, compliance, support, the IT system, the building control management system, BCMS, and, more recently, a market surveillance module. The shared service has become national office, the National Building Control and Market Surveillance Office. The office is under the auspices of Dublin City Council at present and it strengthens and supports local implementation.

Construction Industry Register Ireland, CIRI, the Act was passed last year for competent, registered builder. It is in the implementation phases now. The Construction Industry Federation, CIF, will be its registration body. It establishes, for the first time, a level of competency for builders who are registered.

Chairman

Are we moving to a point where every new building will be inspected by a building control officer?

Ms Sarah Neary

The first line, really, is the people who are involved in the design and construction. They have the first line of responsibility. That is what is in the legislation. The assigned certifier is a new person involved in the project, who was brought in SI 9 in 2014-----

Chairman

Would an assigned certifier be local authority?

Ms Sarah Neary

No, the assigned certifier is not local authority. The certifier is a layer of inspection that has been well-documented in code of practice. It is a layer of inspection. The local authorities, on a risk-based approach, do an audit function or an oversight. That is another layer of inspection.

Chairman

Thus, it is not a case that we are moving towards the model in England, where everything is inspected. I am not saying it is right or wrong, but we are not doing that here.

Ms Sarah Neary

We are not, but what we are looking at - it is in the programme for Government - is independent building standards regulator. We are working with the Housing Agency to finalise a report to look at the current functions of building control authorities with regard to building control, market surveillance, the energy performance of buildings directive, EPPD, and broadband. They carry out a range of responsibilities. The report is looking at how they are structured and resourced within the local authority structure and the implementation of that system. We are also looking at international examples of building control and at national regulators to see what works well and which would be the best. We were involved in supporting the working group on defects in apartments, which produced a report last summer. What became clear out of that report is that many countries are dealing with defects. Remarkable similarities with our nearest neighbours, and further afield in Australia, arose in respect of the issues.

Senator Lynn Boylan

I thank the officials from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage for coming in to the committee today. I will pick up on embodied carbon, especially in existing buildings. We are constantly seeing buildings in the city being demolished rather than reused. Stephen Court is a beautiful building around the corner for which planning permission has just been received to demolish it. Is the Department looking at requiring developers, when they are submitting their planning applications, to give a justification as to why demolition is essential and the building cannot be reused instead? If reuse is not possible in every circumstance, would there be pre-demolition audits of the materials in order that we can ensure as much as possible is salvaged from the site and that the developer would then show, through that audit, how he or she will use those materials in the new development?

What is the protocol for all public work contracts, whereby reuse would be the default position? Is the State is showing leadership in that role? With regard to public procurement changes, the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, and the Irish Green Building Council have both said that we need to incentivise the use low-carbon cement, which exists. The technology is there. More cement than is required is being used in developments. Will there be changes to public procurement to ensure the State is showing leadership in incentivising low-carbon construction methods?

Mr. Seán Armstrong

I am happy to take that. Planning is not our remit, but we have been given some briefing by planning. Legislative provisions are enforced to ensure that where planning authorities considering a planning application under section 24 of the Planning and Development Act, the planning authority is required under section 34(2) to consider "the proper planning and sustainable development of the area" which includes, "where relevant, the policy of the Government, the Minister or any ... Minister of the Government". A similar provision is provided for the board in section 143 of the Act.

There is also a provision in section 34(4) to enable a planning authority, where it considers appropriate, to attach conditions to a planning permission with regard to "conditions for requiring construction and demolition waste to be recovered or disposed of in such a manner and to such extent as may be specified by the planning authority". Where planning permission is granted, it is a matter for the planning authority or the board to attach the appropriate conditions on individual developments with regard to construction and demolition waste.

The significant majority of local authorities, through their development plan policies, already require the submission of a construction and demolition waste management plan to accompany planning applications for developments of a certain scale and type.

In this regard, the EPA has published guidance entitled Best Practice Guidelines for the Preparation of Resource and Management Plans for Construction and Demolition Projects. This is the planning legislation-----

Senator Lynn Boylan

Does Mr. Armstrong think it goes far enough? We constantly see buildings being demolished and not reused. The report from the Oireachtas committee clearly asked for the Department to carry out changes to the planning system to ensure demolition would be justified. Do we need to strengthen this aspect? Whatever is in there is not working because we are seeing all the buildings being demolished and not being reused.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

This is the planning legislation as it sits now. To go beyond that would be a matter for the planning division in the Department. It is not my place to make a statement on its behalf. Planning was not included today. On procurement, there are actions in the Climate Action Plan 2023 for public procurement changes. As I said earlier, representatives from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment are leading a decarbonisation working group. The Climate Action Plan 2023 has an action for public procurement to include low-carbon construction methods and low-carbon cement in procurement policies and mechanisms by the end of 2023. There is a plan in place to introduce this aspect.

Deputy Alan Farrell

I was going to talk about embodied carbon and trying to save buildings from unnecessary demolition, but I think this issue has been covered by both previous speakers. The retention and repurposing of buildings is very important, but it leads into the other issue, which is the over-reliance in the Irish construction sector on concrete. I tabled a series of parliamentary questions in recent weeks on the use of timber-frame construction in buildings. I have been provided with various reports and things like that which are a good few years old and, unfortunately, allude to an industry that is just not willing to use this approach.

There may also be a reluctance on the part of the State to look at the fire regulations associated with this type of building with timber-frame methods, as well as the structural regulations governing the height a timber-frame building can go to. I have my concerns in this regard. It seems to be a sort of an Irish solution to an Irish problem, when the Scots and the Nordics do not seem to have this problem but we do. What I would like to know, therefore, is whether we can start the process or whether we are in the process of changing regulations to promote and incentivise, and I am using these two words carefully, the use of timber-frame construction to reduce dramatically the amount of carbon-heavy concrete in our construction sector. I ask this particularly when we are in the midst of trying to defeat this housing crisis and, time and again, ramping up construction.

The other issue concerns the inspection side of things. The Chair touched on this issue and it is an important part of this conversation in the context of the old approach of labels in the sector being signed off on by the same people building the properties. This is not an approach I want to be associated with. It should be borne in mind that I got into this House hot on the heels of the pyrite issue and we are now still dealing with mica and other construction defects. Self-certification is just not going to cut it. While I somewhat agree with the Chair regarding going the full length in this regard, which is what the UK is doing, there is an interim place that I think bolsters this committee's work in respect of the climate action objective, which is to ensure the standards are being adhered to, especially when it comes to insulation and heating sources.

My understanding is there are still houses being sold today, albeit some of them have been constructed under planning permissions granted quite a few years ago, that still have gas and oil boilers in them. I refer to a situation where we are embedding the use of gas and oil boilers in properties in 2022, certainly in my neighbourhood and constituency, and will be in 2023 because I am sure some of these properties are still on the market, and the Department and the local authorities do not have the flexibility to impose a separate provision mandating that a construction company cannot, even if it has planning permission to build houses in a particular way, put gas boilers, or oil boilers in certain cases, into a property. Will Mr. Armstrong clarify this point? I appreciate that some of this is under his remit and some is not. I listened carefully to his point about being briefed, so perhaps he might be able to enlighten the committee.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

I am happy to give an overview of timber-frame construction and how this method is being supported through Government policy. I can also talk about the gas boilers, and if Ms Neary wishes to add any information on regulation, I am happy for her to contribute.

I said earlier that off-site modern methods of construction are a key policy measure in the context of Housing for All. Significant initiatives have been taken in the past 12 months to establish Construct Innovate, Ireland's national research centre for construction technology and innovation, to support off-site modern methods of construction, which include the timber-frame approach. A national demonstration park has also been established, which will showcase modern methods of construction, including timber frame. We also have the national construction training campus located on the same site, enabling young people coming through the system to learn about modern methods of construction. All these measures are being put in place to support modern methods of construction and off-site fabrication, which is very much timber-frame construction. Additionally, we are building capacity through public procurement. The Department will be pushing out tenders for up to 1,500 houses on 30 local authority sites.

Regarding the promotion of specific technologies, building regulations-----

Deputy Alan Farrell

And incentivisation. We must accept at this stage, and I appreciate this is the policy side of things, that we cannot be saying, "Ah, here you go; it'll be grand." The cheapest option will be gone with, but we need to start conditioning the sector to respond to the requirements set out in the climate action plan, right across every Department. Incentivisation has to be pretty stark in this process. We are incentivising the public to upgrade their properties to reduce their carbon emissions. We need to do the same at the beginning of the process as well.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

Building capacity through the public procurement system, which is focused on modern methods of construction, is a way of incentivising the industry to deliver modern methods of construction to the public sector. As well as that, however, building regulations and procurement processes tend to be performance-based. This is why the introduction of requirements and accounting methodologies for embodied carbon are key. When we introduce the embodied carbon accounting methodology, then we will have a recognised framework for measuring embodied carbon in construction technologies. We can then identify which construction systems have lower or higher embodied carbon emissions and introduce performance requirements for these emissions. The introduction-----

Deputy Alan Farrell

I am sorry to cut across Mr. Armstrong, but this sounds like a body of work to be completed in terms of framing what is suitable for use in Irish construction versus what we are currently using. Are we reinventing the wheel? Can we not look at what the Scots are doing? They have a very similar climate. I ask this because many of the concerns about modern methods of construction, timber-frame construction in particular, relate to humidity and the moisture content in our environment versus other jurisdictions. The present views are very antiquated. Certainly, in the context of reports I have read from other jurisdictions, official documentation provided to me via parliamentary questions, as I said, alludes to an old view on a very modern set of circumstances. I wonder, therefore, if what the Department is doing is a body of work to get to a point, or did I miss Mr. Armstrong's point?

Mr. Seán Armstrong

There are two separate issues. One concerns the accounting methodologies for embodied carbon. This is for all technologies and we must have some way of measuring embodied carbon. The other issue is perhaps a more holistic approach to the different innovative systems available.

We have to ensure that they are fit for their intended use and the conditions in which they are to be used. In order to do that they can be done through an Irish national standard or an alternative approach such as independent third-party certification. For timber frame construction there is a well-recognised I.S. 440 timber standard. There is absolutely no barrier in the regulatory system or in the standards system to the construction of timber frame housing. As I identified earlier on, the Irish Timber Frame Manufacturers Association states that 48% of new housing is timber frame. That is not the Government saying this, but the industry. It is in its press release.

Deputy Alan Farrell

That does not tie in with the figures provided to me by the Department.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

It depends on when the Deputy received the figures.

Deputy Alan Farrell

In the last couple of weeks.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

From our Department?

Deputy Alan Farrell

Yes.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

Okay. The quote is there. We can send the press release to the Deputy afterwards from the Irish Timber Frame Manufacturers Association. That is an increase from 25%, which is probably the figure given to the Deputy. That 25% figure is an older figure that would have been quoted by the Irish Timber Frame Manufacturers Association previously.

Deputy Alan Farrell

That is a bit better than reported.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

Yes. On top of that we have these policy measures in place to support modern measures of construction. We have the standards system in place to support timber frame. It is then a matter for the market to compete. We will be introducing embodied carbon calculation methodologies after the adoption of the energy performance of buildings directive this summer. I believe the standards system is in place, we are putting in place the accounting frameworks and the regulatory system is able to assess that when it is presented to it.

Ms Sarah Neary

I thank Mr. Armstrong. To reinforce his point, in the early 2000s there was a consortium report on timber frame. One of the key points it established was the need for a drained and ventilated cavity in timber-frame construction. That has stood the test of time in those conditions of which he speaks. We have moved on considerably from that now. The I.S. 440 to which Mr. Armstrong referred is one of its kind. There is no other standard for timber-frame construction throughout Europe. That is an Irish construct. It details all the requirements for timber-frame construction and was a real boost to that industry. More recently we have worked with the timber-frame industry to provide supplemental guidance in regard to the fire details of walls, floors and roofs, and incorporating some of the more modern methods of construction of those elements to further support it. As Mr. Armstrong said, about 50% of residential building is now in timber frame. In regard to the other point, some of the recent parliamentary questions have come on our side around the 10 m requirements, so I am happy to address that.

Deputy Alan Farrell

There are different views. I fully appreciate and I am not going to get into the technicalities of it but looking at the Nordics and the height restrictions we have, tight restrictions, in the use of timber frame and the likes of glulam or the various other means of producing a property, whether it is offsite construction, slot Lego blocks or whatever they are called. I have seen them. They are very impressive. In other jurisdictions there does not seem to be as much of a restriction on height. Certainly one particular local authority in Norway which was brought to my attention just before Christmas by a good friend of mine, allows 18 m of precast wood. This is a significant building. I do not believe, having read the answers to the parliamentary questions I put in, that that would be permitted here. That is something I would like to review and have a regulatory decision on, in terms of what we could aspire to. Viewing it from the structural stability angle of course, then the fire regulations surrounding it, 18 m is a four- or possibly five-storey building.

Ms Sarah Neary

It is six floors plus.

Deputy Alan Farrell

Six, that is really significant. That simply would not be permitted in this jurisdiction. However, imagine the knock-on effects that might have on a partially perimeter building with the core made out of concrete for lifts or something, the impact that might have on the costs of apartment building for instance. I do not think we are there and that is primarily the reason I put in the series of questions.

Ms Sarah Neary

From the regulatory perspective, the building regulations set the minimum performance for buildings in Ireland on foot of the Building Control Act. The building regulations are set in functional terms around the performance. They take the building as a whole and they look at the building from 12 different perspectives, including structure, fire, water ingress, access for people with all sorts of abilities, conservation, fuel and energy and so on. It is very much a holistic approach. There are broad performance terms. They are material neutral and are based on the health, safety and welfare of people in or around buildings. They are very broad functional and legal requirements. When you go down a layer, it is about how to comply with those broad performance terms. The construct that exists are technical guidance documents. Technical guidance documents are a means of showing compliance with those regulations. They are not the only way. For innovative, non-standardised forms of construction, there are other approaches. These include Agrément certification, third party certification or bespoke primary design from first principles. There is a big difference between compliance with the building regulations and compliance with the technical guidance documents. Much of what Mr. Armstrong has talked about is developing up modern methods of construction in that innovative space and supporting that. The technical guidance documents are often painted as a barrier to timber construction going above a certain level but they have to be seen in the structure of building regulations. They are geared towards non-complex common buildings. In Ireland 98% of all buildings are under 10 m in height. If you take out housing, which can skew the figures, 92% of all buildings are under 10 m in height. That is where technical guidance is provided. It is about how to comply easily. That is why we supported the development of supplementary guidance for timber construction, so that it is prima facie evidence of compliance and it is easier for inspectors to check that it has been done right, it is easier for manufacturers to produce it right and builders to build it right. The cross laminated timber, CLT, and the glulam that the Deputy mentioned are more in the space of innovative forms of construction. In regard to the 18 m of the building in Norway, we have buildings at that height. They are bespoke. Some are designed from first principles. There is a facility to do that within building regulations but it requires more attention to detail both at design and construction stages. Given our history and past, and the importance of building control and building right, not everything is equal. Where people have experience and there is a good deal of guidance it is a different scenario from an emerging form of construction that needs to be very carefully considered.

Deputy Alan Farrell

I thank Ms Neary.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

I will answer the Deputy's question on boilers. As I said in the opening statement, 86% of new dwellings now install heat pumps. We introduced nearly zero energy building requirements for dwellings in November 2019.

The number of heat pumps increased quickly from approximately 50% to more than 80% as a result of the regulation's introduction. The number of heat pumps has been increasing by 2% each quarter. Recently, we made an adjustment to the accounting methodology for the BER system to take account of the grid's decarbonisation. This will further reduce emissions from heat pumps. Using the current rate of increase of 2% per quarter, we expect to see fossil fuel boilers fully phased out by the end of next year. With our recent adjustments, we might even see that happen earlier. It is happening. Oil boilers and solid fuel burners are no longer being installed as the main heating systems for new dwellings.

Deputy Alan Farrell

I took a couple of prime examples of B-rated brand-new properties with gas boilers. I thought it was confusing but I now understand the lag. What if the Department were empowered to apply conditions to a developer who had a pre-2019 planning permission outstanding? Fossil fuel systems are still being installed in 14% of buildings. Mr. Armstrong spoke about phasing that out, which was great to hear, but is there any mechanism that we could use – channelling local authorities to enforce it – to stamp this out completely?

Mr. Seán Armstrong

There is always a transitional arrangement when introducing new requirements.

Deputy Alan Farrell

Yes, but three or four years is a long transition. I understand that we are discussing planning permissions, but is there nothing we could do to-----

Mr. Seán Armstrong

Those three years have passed. We are at the end of the transition period. The rate was 25% in 2015, 50% in 2019 and 86% in 2022. We are-----

Deputy Alan Farrell

I know. I am not criticising, and I do not want Mr. Armstrong to believe I am. I am just asking whether there is a mechanism. I accept Mr. Armstrong's point that it will be phased out by the end of next year.

Chairman

To clarify the 86%, were those exclusively heat pump homes that did not also have fossil fuel boilers installed as backup? If there is a proportion of dual-fuel homes, the risk is that people might start using the fossil fuel boilers.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

It is described as an electrical heating system in the Central Statistics Office, CSO, statistics. From our analysis, they are normally heat pumps that are used as the main heating system in each dwelling.

Chairman

I also wish to ask about fossil fuel boilers in existing buildings. We are doing well in terms of new builds, but the situation with existing buildings is much more challenging. How is it going? If someone lives in a house built between the 1950s and 1970s, he or she may not install a heat pump and may instead install another oil or gas boiler. What is the path in respect of existing buildings?

Mr. Seán Armstrong

Under the building regulations, where a building is undergoing a major renovation that affects more than 25% of its surface area, it should achieve a B2 energy rating or the cost-optimal equivalent. Some 25% of a building's surface is a significant renovation. Installing a heating pump will help someone readily achieve a B2 rating but it is still possible to achieve that rating with an efficient oil or gas boiler.

The B2 performance requirement for major renovations is being reviewed as part of our cost-optimal exercise, which is required under the energy performance of buildings directive. We will publish those revised cost-optimal calculations in the second or third quarter of this year. We expect them to show an advancement of the B2 requirement, which will push us towards the introduction of a renewable requirement for major renovations in the building regulations.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Armstrong.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

I thank the witnesses for attending. I appreciate it. This is an important topic. I have questions on planning, and we might have an opportunity to deal with them at a future point.

What has been achieved in new builds emphasises the importance of compulsory action. Guidance is all well and good, but when we get down to it, people choose things that are familiar or feel like the best option from a cost point of view. What are the witnesses' thoughts on Croí Cónaithe? Was an opportunity missed to insert regulations on energy ratings, particularly as regards heat pumps? People must apply separately for SEAI grant funding. Instead of that choice being left to the individual, what if people applying for Croí Cónaithe funding were required to bring buildings up to a certain rating and to install heat pumps? We might see the numbers increase.

I am concerned about how Croí Cónaithe is not just about town centres. Town centres were mentioned, but Croí Cónaithe has been expanded beyond its original purpose and now reaches one-off dwellings. This means that further climate action measures are probably required.

Local authorities' climate action plans are in development, but what will be required from a building energy rating point of view? Much of what the witnesses have spoken about relates to social housing or new builds but local authorities' remit goes beyond those to older buildings.

Leaving aside new builds, are we on track to meet the targets? What steps is the Department taking year on year to ensure they are being met? It is difficult to see from all of the statistics and numbers being given and from the climate action plan exactly which measure brings us to what level of reduction. A figure of 86% sounds high, but what is that in terms of a building's overall energy? I am not clear on that. Existing buildings are the elephant in the room. We do not really have an idea about where they stand.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

Some of these matters are outside the remit of building regulations, but we are happy to supply a briefing from the Department.

The purpose of Croí Cónaithe is to service sites and refurbish vacant properties in regional towns. It contributes to making the most efficient use of existing stock, avoiding the need to build new dwellings and ensuring that we get longer lives out of our existing buildings.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

Obviously, it is welcome. I am just wondering whether it is a missed opportunity to go beyond that. New buildings will have much higher ratings, but we also want to see older buildings brought back into the use. I do not know why there would be two different standards.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

It is important to say that it is a positive development-----

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

Of course.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

-----in supporting existing buildings. Any work that affects more than 25% of a building's surface area will be subject to major renovation requirements and will be required to achieve a B2 rating or the cost-optimal level. There is a standard. As to why it is not the same A2 standard as applies to nearly-zero energy buildings, it is much more challenging to retrofit existing buildings, particularly traditional and heritage buildings.

The fabric of the building is much more sensitive to retrofit technologies and modern insulation materials. There is the potential to damage existing buildings if they are not treated in the right way. The Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage is producing a guidance document on energy efficiency in traditional buildings . Our heritage division is leading this. It will support people retrofitting existing buildings. Because of the technical difficulties involved in existing buildings, it is more challenging to achieve an A energy rating. The performance requirements for existing buildings are not the same as new buildings due to those technical difficulties right now. In the energy performance of buildings directive the target is to bring our entire building stock to zero emissions buildings by 2050. Even in the European legislation it is recognised that a longer timeframe is needed for existing buildings because of the complexity involved. There are performance requirements and it is more challenging. The performance requirements are constantly reviewed and we will do so again this summer. However, because of technical complexity, it would not be feasible to have them the same as for new buildings, right now.

Retrofit is a key measure in the climate action plan to help us achieve our targets. It is 500,000 dwellings by 2030. That comes under the remit of the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. It is clearly identified as a key measure in the climate action plan. With regards to progress against targets, we can give the updates for the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and our social housing retrofit which is on target

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

My question is not really about that target. My question is about carbon and the target for buildings. I want to know the overall amount of carbon from each of the different elements. That gives a better idea of how much work needs to be done by the existing stock because I do not think we have that. I am not seeing that today.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

My understanding is that the analysis is being done in the climate action plan as to what the contribution is from each sector to help us achieve our 2030 targets. That has been translated into numbers,

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

But not quite like "here is what 86% looks like, compared to the overall building stock".

Mr. Seán Armstrong

Measures have been identified. Tonnes of carbon are placed against installing 600,000 heat pumps, retrofitting 500,000 dwellings, installing 1 million electric vehicles. Those items are in the climate action plan, and there are tonnes of carbon placed against those.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

What do we need to get to for the existing stock because 2050 is a long way away and people are now putting in oil burners and gas burners? What is the intermediate step?

Mr. Seán Armstrong

The targets for 2030 are in the climate action plan. I do not have the figures with me here today but we can share them. It is more under the remit of the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications

Chairman

The concern would be that the climate action plan is viewed by other Departments as very much sitting with the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications but the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage has ownership of the housing piece and reducing emissions there. Is that what Senator O'Reilly was asking?

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

Yes, it is not about the retrofitting. It is about the embodied carbon. The witness is really only addressing the new buildings that are part of that.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

That is the remit of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. The performance requirements that we have for housing are seen as very advanced compared to the rest of Europe. We are making significant progress in decarbonising heating systems for dwellings. The date for zero emissions buildings in the energy performance of buildings directive, EPBD, is 2030. We have it done now

Chairman

There is certainly really good stuff happening. I do not think anybody would dispute it but how do we as a committee know that housing is on track? It is the mandate of this committee and its responsibility to bring in Ministers more so than officials. That is the accountability piece in the Climate Action and Low Carbon Development (Amendment) Act 2021. We need to hear that the line Minister is on top of it and that it is on track. That will feed into the discussion for the revision of the climate action plan in the following year. Is that fair Senator O'Reilly?

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

That is a fair summary of what I am asking because we are getting very specific figures on new builds but we are not getting any specific figures on older buildings. That is really my point and therefore, I cannot really see what how we are advancing, other than to say this is the number of retrofits but that does not really get us to where we need to be. I did have other questions as well around the local authority climate action plans.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

The local authority climate action plan is under the Climate Action and Low Carbon Development (Amendment) Act 2021. The development of local authority climate action plans rests with the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

Is there an opportunity to put some of this into the local authority climate action plans?

Mr. Seán Armstrong

As I understand it, the local authorities are required to develop their climate action plans in line with the National Climate Action Plan 2023. Guidelines to do that are being developed by the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications and each local authority develops its own climate action plan. In order to align with the national action plan they would have to take account of the targets in there. Again, that is the remit of the Minister of the Environment, Climate and Communications.

Chairman

We will have the Minister in on Thursday so hold that question, Senator O'Reilly.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

I have just realised that Mr. Armstrong is in the building regulation element of this issue. I had a lot of questions about targets, which the witness may actually have been briefed on. If I can ask the questions about the housing targets, hopefully his colleagues have made sure he is armed with all the facts.

The opening statement stated that for local authority housing, the target is for 36,500 homes, to be at a B2 energy rating by 2030. Is that correct? Is there a target for 2025? I know the overall Government target was 500,000 but there is a 2025 target of 125,000. Is there a similar 2025 target for the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage?

Mr. Seán Armstrong

The published target is 36,500 for 2030. Internally, the social housing business unit would have its own plans but there is no committed target for 2025.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

Okay, perfect. On that point, how many have been retrofitted to B2 energy rating to date?

Mr. Seán Armstrong

I have those figures here. In 2021, under the energy efficiency retrofit programme, 1,038 units were retrofitted. In 2022, under the same programme, 2,283 units were retrofitted and in 2023, the target is 2,400 units. Since 2021 it is that figure of 1,038 plus 2,283, which is 3,321 and a further 2,400 are planned to be done this year, which will bring the total to 5,721.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

Are they to a B2 energy rating?

Mr. Seán Armstrong

They are to a B2 energy rating at a cost optimal level

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

They are the ones that are being done by local authorities themselves.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

Yes.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

More than 30,000 would require retrofitting from 2024 onwards. There would be six years in which to do that.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

That is correct.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

Is there a breakdown on a local authority level?

Mr. Seán Armstrong

There is.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

Are some doing better than others? Has there been any analysis of the barriers faced by the different local authorities?

Mr. Seán Armstrong

We have the breakdown for 2021. We do not yet have the breakdown for 2022. We can see that there are different delivery rates.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

Would it be possible to get that breakdown from Mr. Armstrong?

Mr. Seán Armstrong

Absolutely.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

That would be better than having him read it out. I am trying to get my head around the process. How does a local authority choose the houses to retrofit to a B2 standard? Is a retrofit conducted as standard if there is a change of tenancy? Is that when the local authority would do the upgrade work? Do local authorities have to move tenants out? In order to get to a B2 rating, the upgrade work can be intensive.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

The B2 target is set using the cost-optimal calculation, which is the best energy performance for the lowest life cycle of cost. One of the positive things about the B2 upgrade is that where it is technically, functionally and economically feasible and practical, it can be done while the tenants remain in situ in the dwelling.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

The upgrade work happens while the tenants remain in the home.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

That is correct.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

Upgrades of 36,500 homes will be done. That leaves 100,000 that will not be done. Is that right? Has there been an assessment of all local authority housing? Have the BERs of each of those houses been established?

Mr. Seán Armstrong

We do not have a profile of the BER for every local authority house. However, there has been a requirement in recent times to compile pre- and post-retrofit BER reports. The local authorities retain those reports. Since 2021, we have asked local authorities to submit those post-work BERs to the Department. Prior to that, a BER analysis was conducted when a shallow retrofit was carried out on a house.

Our total local housing stock is approximately 140,000. A shallow retrofit programme was carried out from 2013 to 2021, which included cavity wall and attic insulation. Some 75,000 houses were improved with by means of shallow retrofits in that period. Of those 140,000 houses, 35,000 have been built since 2008. The typical BER since 2008 has been at least B1. Since 2015, it has been A3. Some 35,000 houses are at a rating of at least B1 or A3 and, more recently, A2. Some 75,000 houses have had a shallow retrofit and 35,000 are already at a BER of B2 or better. That means 110,000 houses have been improved or are at a rating of at least B2. We plan to have almost 6,000 more done by the end of this year.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

Many people are renting. Is it correct that landlords who wish to upgrade can evict their tenants to do so?

Mr. Seán Armstrong

They cannot do so on the basis of energy efficiency works alone. The requirements are advanced. Five points in the BER rating of a dwelling must be improved when those improving works are taking place. My understanding is that tenants cannot be evicted solely to accommodate energy efficiency works. That can only happen in the case of major refurbishments.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

My concern about energy efficiency measures is that the State is subsiding them. If we are subsidising a landlord to do up his or her house, which is what we want, we do not want tenants to be put at risk of eviction because of work that is being paid for, or at least subsidised, by the State. At the moment, landlords have to offer the tenancy back. I think the tenants who were in place have first refusal. Has the Department ever looked into making it a legislative requirement that the tenant who is in situ when renovations happen remains the tenant and has a home to return to once the works are completed?

Mr. Seán Armstrong

The requirement is around major renovation works and improvements to the dwelling. It does not apply in respect of energy efficiency alone. As the Deputy has outlined, the dwelling is offered to the tenant who was in place when the works are completed. I am not aware of any further proposals in that area.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

Does the Department collect data? Does it know the number of tenants that are offered their accommodation back? Does the landlord have to inform the Department? Is some data collection being conducted to ensure that is actually happening?

Mr. Seán Armstrong

I am not sure of the inspection and checking process. We can check that and come back to the Deputy.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

That would be great.

Deputy Bríd Smith

I thank our guests for attending. The first thing that jumps out at me is that it is a no-brainer that energy-efficient homes are very important. They are also healthy homes that are climate friendly as well as being more cost-effective. Yet we have an extraordinary situation in this city and others whereby local authorities seem to think it is okay to leave people, particularly those in flat complexes, in disgraceful, damp and mouldy conditions with single-glazed windows not just for three or five years but for decades upon decades. I have raised this issue consistently in the Oireachtas and will continue to do so. It is disgraceful that it is happening. Given that climate funding is available and there is an emphasis on climate measures around the built environment, is it not possible to use this opportunity to ensure that local authorities take immediate steps to improve these homes, for health reasons as well as climate reasons? Is there any way that more funding could be found to reduce homes' energy needs and make them healthier and safer places to live?

Mr. Seán Armstrong

The Deputy is absolutely correct that ventilation to reduce the risks to people's health from mould is key. Energy efficiency works make a dwelling warmer and thereby reduce the risk of mould growth. One of the key things in the building regulations and in SR 54, which was developed by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications and the National Standards Authority of Ireland, NSAI, is the need for adequate ventilation in dwellings when they are being retrofitted. There is clear guidance in the standards for retrofitting that ventilation should be assessed and provided as part of the retrofit. It is an essential part of retrofitting.

Ventilation is also provided for in the retrofit of local authority housing. It is a key element of schemes. In the standards for private rented properties, there are provisions to ensure adequate ventilation in dwellings. The advisors in the building standards and communications sections of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage developed a guidance document for the layperson on appropriate ventilation in dwellings, which is available on our website. We have circulated that document widely. We also made a video with the University of Galway about the importance of ventilation. That is available on our website. Ventilation is provided for in the standards for retrofit and in the standards for local authority retrofit. It is funded in local authority retrofitting.

We have had a communication document and video on it. We see it as a key part of the energy efficiency retrofit programmes that are in place. We would also refer to the NSAI SR54 standard, which also requires ventilation in dwellings when they are being retrofitted.

Deputy Bríd Smith

I thank Mr. Armstrong. It is good to know there is a video and a document but I am speaking about hundreds, if not thousands, of families who have been living in atrocious conditions for decades. If funding is available then either the political will or the active will is not there because nothing has been done about them. I will be back on to the Department about this. I want to highlight it because it is quite disgraceful.

When Deputy Whitmore was drilling down into the targets and figures for the past few years this is something I was thinking about. We are off target in terms of reaching what needs to be done. The Oireachtas committee's report on the built environment states it is estimated that proposals envisaged in the national development plan and Housing for All could push emissions from the built environment to three times the national target by 2030, with embodied carbon expected to increase by a factor of five in the same timeframe, accounting for 40% of residential emissions. I am sure Mr. Armstrong will not say that the committee's report is wrong. My point is that if we rely only on private industry, which has to make a massive profit, to carry out the targets and plans in the national development plan and Housing for All, not only will we miss our targets but it will be done in a poor way that will maximise profits but increase emissions. We need to emphasise that building should be carried out for the purpose of meeting climate targets and not for purpose of profit. It cannot be a way to make a load of money for any industry. This is something we have to take into account.

It is said that the most climate friendly building is the one that is already built. We know we have 160,000 empty homes in the State. Does the Department have any plan to fix up the already built environment that exists and which is empty and derelict? We know it would be expensive but it would not be expensive on the environment. It would be a very good and positive way of approaching these arguments.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

With regard to the re-use of existing homes we have the vacant homes strategy. There is a €150 million urban regeneration development fund for vacancy-related projects. There is guidance on compulsory purchase orders by local authorities, the roll-out of the data collection projects in local authorities and the development of the full-time role of the vacant homes officer throughout local authorities. We also have the Croí Cónaithe fund, which was discussed earlier. There are also planning and development Act requirements to re-use homes and encourage the re-use of buildings and compact growth. That is all I can say on the use of homes.

Deputy Bríd Smith

I want to return to the targets. We have fallen well short of the targets in recent years. To reach the target now we would need to complete approximately 5,400 homes per year between now and 2030. Does Mr. Armstrong honestly see us being able to do this? Is he telling us - without telling us - that most of these targets will be back-ended to a period between 2025 and 2030? The targets we have set ourselves for the next year or so will fall well short of what is required. They already have.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

The nearly zero energy buildings is a front-loaded target. We have already pretty much achieved it. The retrofit of social housing is ongoing. As we pointed out, a significant number of local authority homes have already undergone a shallow retrofit and the remaining need to undergo a B2 retrofit. The figure at present is 2,400 units. This will need to be ramped up as we go forward but not by multiples. It will need to be ramped up by a certain percentage on what we are already doing. Targets in other areas would need to be addressed by other Departments. The embodied carbon targets are something we are working on in line with EU legislation. We will introduce legislation in line with the EU legislation for buildings greater 2000 m² from 1 January 2027.

Deputy Bríd Smith

I thank Mr. Armstrong.

Deputy Richard Bruton

The committee is somewhat frustrated because we tend to look at the building sector as an entity in itself. We feel there ought to be a single Minister reporting to us on the performance of the sector. It seems we have a very divided situation, whereby the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage looks after planning regulations, solar panel regulations and all sorts of things but then it tells us another Department must account for the emissions from the sector. Are we at risk of falling between two stools? The Minister with line responsibility will not have many of the tools that are essential.

I want to move on to a matter for which the Department is clearly responsible and this is its own procurement policy. To what extent does its procurement policy specify issues such as on-site waste segregation? Does it state that any building it sanctions must have certain standards in terms of how waste is managed and recovered? Does the Department apply a wood-first principle in its approach? I know other countries that are trying to be leaders in this sphere are doing this. What are the Department's instructions to those doing its design work? Is it telling them to wait until we hear from the EU and the legislation is in place? Is it telling them this is something that is coming down the tracks like a steam engine and we need to move ahead of the EU to get a handle on it?

Another issue I am interested to hear about is the Department's own buildings. Apart from housing I presume that local authorities are under the Department's remit. They are accountable in the climate plan for cutting their emissions. At this point is it possible for the Department to state the local authorities are on target to deliver their 2025 and 2030 targets? The impression I get with regard to the accountability of various organisations is that it is very patchy and that an effective tool is not being operated from the centre for units that are recalcitrant in meeting their public building targets. Is it different in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage?

I am also interested in retrofitting. The Department is making progress and I know it has been a difficult couple of years. An area where the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage has significant leverage which is not open to the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications is that many of the estates in which it is upgrading 25% of its housing stock have already been sold to owners. They are privately owned at this point. To what extent is the Department going into these estates, whether in joint ventures with others or otherwise, and looking to leverage its 25%, or whatever percentage, ownership it has in the estates to get a collective move whereby the whole estate, be it private or public, moves to the new standard? Many of them are very old estates with the worst energy ratings anywhere in the country. The Department is in a pivotal and far stronger position than the SEAI doling out individual grants or hoping the one-stop shop would attract people. It has respect as well as ownership.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

With regard to climate budgets, one of the significant measures in the built environment is to retrofit 500,000 dwellings to a B2 standard by 2030.

The budget and agency to implement those would be two of the key levers to address what is a significant measure in the built environment. With regard to waste segregation, when local authorities are procuring houses the contractors are required to work in accordance with national legislation.

Deputy Richard Bruton

The present situation is that they are the biggest user of materials and they have the lowest recycling rates. A rate of 10% recycling is common on our building sites. Is the Department saying its contractors must achieve a far higher rate than that? Is the Department trying to be a leader in respect of the climate plan? Is it using public procurement as a lever to get to best practice? It just sounds like it is sitting back a bit, waiting for EU legislation to come along and create an obligation rather than saying we need to spring forward here.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

On the waste segregation, the local authorities work to the requirements as set out by the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA. With regard to opportunities for leading by example in that sector, there are requirements for public bodies to integrate low-carbon and embodied carbon methodologies into their public procurement processes in 2023 under the climate action plan. Each public body is expected to develop-----

Deputy Richard Bruton

Is there a template for that? I cannot see them doing it unless there is a very clear direction, almost, from the Custom House.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

There is green public procurement guidance being developed by the EPA which public bodies-----

Deputy Richard Bruton

There was one guidance document published, I would say, ten years ago and it had very little impact. Is there something different this time around?

Mr. Seán Armstrong

The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is also developing a policy with regard to decarbonisation of cement for public bodies for their public procurement processes. That is set out in the climate action plan. With regard to Wood First, I think we explained earlier that the modern methods of construction policy are seen as a key initiative to help support Housing for All. It has been implemented through local authority public procurement policy. In the past we have seen that timber-frame housing is very successful in terms of modern methods of construction. We have seen it come through as a significant technology in that context.

Deputy Richard Bruton

Is the local authority sector better than the 48% Mr. Armstrong reported earlier in the private sector?

Mr. Seán Armstrong

No, it is not. That is where the opportunity is for the local authority sector. We can see 48% in the private sector and we can see the opportunity for local authorities to achieve and exceed that. We definitely want to take that learning from the private sector and use it to help us deliver housing and address our climate action targets. That is being implemented through the policy of modern methods of construction. On local authorities and the climate action plan, everybody will be aware that local authorities have a wide range of responsibilities and implement policy measures for several Departments. It is clearly stated in the Climate Action and Low Carbon Development (Amendment) Act 2021 that the instruction to develop local authority climate action plans will be provided by the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications. As that Minister will be making the request to local authorities and developing the guidelines, it would be expected that the reporting line would be through the same Minister on local authority climate action plans. That is what is indicated through the Climate Action and Low Carbon Development (Amendment) Act.

Deputy Richard Bruton

On the Department's own retrofitting and that concept of leveraging the entire estate, where it has maybe 10% of the houses, there is another 90%.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

We worked very closely with the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications in the midlands trying to pilot this through the midlands retrofit programme in 2021. It was quite challenging. The challenge was to aggregate the private homeowner at the same time as the local authority was retrofitting its housing. We were working to very short programme timelines with the local authorities due to the budget lines. A lot of co-ordination was needed. It was very difficult to aggregate the individual homeowners. The one-stop shops now are being proposed as a method of aggregating private homeowners. There is also the opportunity for them to liaise with local authorities in that respect. There is a piece of co-ordination needed between local authorities and private homeowners. That needs to be facilitated. As the one-stop shops are the aggregators, they may be best placed to facilitate that co-ordination. It was quite challenging to implement at the time.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

To follow up on procurement, one very concrete proposal is my own legislation which has just finished in the Seanad. The Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth, has been quite supportive of it. It provides for a price quality approach in respect of procurement, creating an obligation to have consideration for quality as well as price in determining public contracts. That creates a space. As Deputy Bruton mentioned, simply having guidance has been shown to be insufficient. Mr. Armstrong himself mentioned that it was only with the introduction of the near-zero energy requirements that we saw a jump from 50% to 80% in terms of heat pumps. It is very clear we need regulation in this area and strong measures, not simply guidance or example.

Mr. Armstrong mentioned a number of areas that are not in his remit. What are the plans for upgrading regulation and statutory instruments in respect of building? There is Part L in terms of energy and Part B in respect of fire safety. We are missing guidance in respect of demolition, which has been mentioned by a number of committee members. Not only does demolition contribute to substantial embodied emissions being released, it is also front-loading the release of embodied emissions within the period that is most precious for action in the next five to ten years. Mr. Armstrong mentioned that planning on demolition was not in his remit. I refer to strengthening regulations in respect of demolition and raising the bar regarding the use of demolition versus retrofitting, extension or renovation.

Another area I note to be missing a little bit, even in terms of the energy analysis, is regulations in respect of light, by which I mean access to natural daylight. Compact growth has been pitched as a sustainability measure but sometimes without the necessary measures. When we engaged with the European Commission, it identified access to daylight as the key component because it affects the amount of energy usage in any given dwelling. What measures are there for strengthening regulations in new buildings and in terms of the impact of new buildings on access to daylight in existing buildings?

To follow up on the question of embodied energy, Mr. Armstrong mentioned accounting a lot. I was not clear about what is actually happening in terms of having an accounting system in place for embodied energy. What is the timeline and where is it at? It is happening already in many countries.

Last year, Denmark introduced a requirement that all buildings under 1,000 sq. m would need life-cycle reporting. All buildings over 1,000 sq. m would have to have a limit on the amount of embodied energy that is allowed to be involved in that project and building. Is that something we are looking at? Are we looking at the French model or the Dutch model? Five or six countries already have proper regulation for embodied energy. What is the witnesses' view on how important it is to ensure that the embodied energy release from demolition is included when we account for the embodied energy? That is why I was a little concerned when the witnesses mentioned starting with new buildings and learning from that, because existing buildings are key. That was the other thing that was mentioned with regard to accounting. As well as accounting for the positive measures such as heat pumps and so on, many members have been asking how the baseline is measured to ensure that we can show there has been an improvement. Reporting on tonnage will not simply involve adding a set of minuses for good things the Department has done but will have to be set alongside the pluses for everything else that is built. Ireland is in a particular situation where it has committed to massive building work in the next five years under Housing for All. Is it not important that we front-load the best standards in that?

Lastly, local authorities and public buildings were mentioned. The target of 36,500 units for social housing is very low. If 500,000 is our objective for retrofitting and less than 10% of that is for social housing, why are we not front-loading retrofitting in all public buildings? Literally any building to which the State has access should surely be front-loaded for retrofitting, because our aim is not just to create a retrofitting industry but to have as many buildings retrofitted as early as possible. It would seem that this is an area where, if anything, action should be front-loaded on the public side because it takes longer to create demand on the private side.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

There are many questions but I am happy to go at it. Regarding future plans for reviews of the building regulations, we are carrying out a review of the performance requirements for both near zero energy buildings, NZEB, and major renovations to the cost optimal level or to a B2 energy rating. That is a large calculation. It takes a set of typical new buildings, both residential and non-residential, and typical existing buildings, and a 30-year life cycle costing assessment is done to identify what the optimum energy performance is for the lowest life cycle cost, taking account of both capital costs and operational costs, because the industry would not necessarily take account of both those items. We identify the optimal energy performance over that 30-year period, taking account of discount rates, the price of carbon and the maintenance and energy bills associated with the specific energy packages applied, then we identify the new cost-optimal performance requirements. Those will be published in the second or third quarter of this year. We are then required to update our building regulation requirements to take account of those new cost-optimal performance requirements. The energy performance of buildings directive states we should do it within five years of the publication of the requirements, which would be by 2028. The climate action plan 2023 commits to reviewing our building regulations in 2025, three years ahead of the energy performance of buildings directive's requirement.

Regarding demolition, as I mentioned earlier, there is current planning guidance and conditions to take account of existing buildings and the reuse of existing buildings. I take the point that it is more than that. It is about the embodied carbon in the existing buildings. As was discussed earlier, to do a quantitative analysis of it, we need the accounting frameworks to be in place to assess the carbon impact of existing buildings and to compare it to the construction of new buildings. While we can do it in a qualitative way currently, in order to do a proper scientific analysis, we need the embodied carbon frameworks to be in place, which brings us on to the question of the timelines for embodied carbon frameworks and what needs to be done to introduce embodied carbon frameworks.

There are two elements to an embodied carbon accounting framework. One is the calculation methodology, where one takes the volume of different materials in a building, including concrete, timber, roof tiles, insulation materials and steel, each of which has embodied carbon emissions assigned to it, and one multiplies the kilograms of carbon dioxide by the total volume of that element, adds those up and gets the total embodied carbon emissions from the building. In order to do that, we need the calculation methodology, which is a software tool that is being developed at a European level. The tool is called Level(s). It exists in a document format at a European level. Software manufacturers can develop software in accordance with that specification that is being developed at a European level. Software tools are available which can be adopted. As a Government or as Ireland, we need to look at those software tools, identify which is most appropriate for use in Ireland, give responsibility to a body in Ireland for manufacturing that software tool, train people to use that tool, assess them, register them-----

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

As well as the detail, because my time is limited, I am looking for the timeline for that because-----

Mr. Seán Armstrong

The point I am trying to make-----

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

-----it is already in place in other countries, including Denmark and France. I am concerned by the idea that we might need to wait before we start moving. Why are we not moving on this, as four or five other countries already are?

Mr. Seán Armstrong

I did not mean to go into too much detail. I am just trying to explain the complexity and the scale of work that needs to be done to put the systems in place. I know Denmark is one of those countries that has been implementing this but it has been implementing it for several years and has developed its systems over several years. From memory, I think its roadmap for the implementation of this was five to six years from the date that it committed to implementing it. We would plan to implement this in a much quicker timeframe. What is important is the alignment with EU regulation. The energy performance of buildings directive requires that we do this calculation from 1 January 2027 for all buildings over 2,000 sq. m. The energy performance of buildings directive specifies the Level(s) calculation methodology. I am not sure what calculation methodology is being used in those other countries.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

I apologise for interrupting but, to be clear, Ireland has stated that we want to build more than 200,000 new homes in the next five years, with 158,550 new homes by 2026. Are we suggesting that we will not try to apply these measures to the 158,000 buildings that we have committed to build before that and that we will wait until we are made to in 2026, when somewhere like Denmark has already been applying it to anything over 1,000 sq. m since last year? Do we have a front-loaded building plan here?

Mr. Seán Armstrong

I am just setting out the timeframe as set out in the current European regulations. The point I was making is that the Level(s) calculation methodology is specified in the energy performance of buildings directive. There is also an annex in the energy performance of buildings directive which describes how the calculation should be carried out. We have been advised that this directive is due to be published in June this year.

It seems appropriate we would use the published calculation methodology when it is adopted by the European institutions in June of this year rather than looking at alternatives. In parallel with the use of the calculation methodology, a database for construction material also needs to be developed. That database needs to be transparent, robust and managed by an independent third party. That database will detail the kilogrammes of CO2 per unit of construction material when used in a building. The methodology and standards for assessing the embodied carbon in construction materials is being developed under an EU regulation on construction products. It is important the data we are using in our calculation methodology are aligned with the standards-based approach being specified at European Union level. The Commission has advised us we should follow the construction products regulation route when specifying the kilogrammes of carbon embodied. My colleagues can explain the construction products regulation further if the Senator wishes, but the important thing is European legislation is being developed and is about to be published. It is important we are aligned with this legislation to avoid creating confusion, sending the industry in different directions and using two different methodologies in parallel. Ireland's position is we will align ourselves with the European methodologies, the calculation engine and the database being produced at European level, which we are advised will be available to us shortly.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

I am glad to hear it is to happen shortly because my concern is we will wait until we are made. I will ask Mr. Armstrong to comment on the issue of light. I was a little concerned he mentioned the building regulations would not have to be reviewed until 2025. Surely we should start to review the building regulations in respect of these areas earlier given the impetus of our own carbon budgets. We may have to come back to the question of the baseline, but will Mr. Armstrong address the issue of light and then, very briefly, another key issue he had mentioned, namely, fire safety?

Chairman

Deputy O'Rourke is waiting patiently. I will come back to Senator Higgins.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

Pardon me but the issue of light is important and has not been addressed yet.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

Light is again mainly covered under planning conditions. Planning conditions refer to BS 8206, which is a light standard from the UK. BS8206 is also referred to in Part L of the building regulations, which provides guidance on a lighting standard. I understand there are also lighting provisions in the apartment guidelines.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

I am asking about the impact of light with regard to energy usage. That is a new area which was not originally reflected in those documents.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

In terms of energy usage, lighting is taken into account-----

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

I am talking about daylight.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

Solar gain is taken into account in the dwelling energy assessment procedure. BS 8206 includes guidance in respect of daylight. That is referred to in technical guidance document L of the building regulations for dwellings. It is a reference rather than a requirement but that is the current situation in respect of daylight.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

I do not need to ask any more questions but I have a suggestion with regard to planning, which is relevant. We are to have the Minister before the committee and we want him to address all of the issues across the Department. Perhaps the planning division could provide us with some material in writing on those issues colleagues have mentioned, such as daylight and demolition. We could then use that to supplement our engagement with the Minister.

Chairman

I was about to suggest that myself. It would be very useful for us if our guests are agreeable to the suggestion. Particularly on light, if we are mindful of making the best use of light in our design thinking, we can probably pre-empt the emission of a lot of carbon. I will leave that with the Department and go to Deputy O'Rourke.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

On one last thing, the questions to the planning division should address the lax approach taken to fire safety and emissions because it is a concern.

Chairman

I may come back to the Senator for some clarity on that question.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I will pick up on a couple of points. The Department indicated that, between 2013 and 2021, shallow retrofits had been carried out on 75,000 local authority houses by way of cavity wall and attic insulation. The Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, tells us a very significant number of the shallow retrofits carried out during that time could benefit from being revisited as the technology has moved on. Does the Department have an indication of how the 75,000 are performing or how many would benefit from being revisited?

On the aggregated approach, the midlands area was given as an example. When the SEAI was before the committee, its representatives talked about a different pilot initiative it ran as part of the community energy grants scheme. They mentioned an area in Cork. I heard an official from Fingal County Council on "Morning Ireland" one morning lamenting the fact it could not take an aggregated approach and speaking about doing a number of houses in an estate while, in that case, private houses were not being done. What are the barriers to aggregation? Mr. Armstrong spoke about the need for co-ordination and pointed towards the one-stop shop. The Department is a big player in the retrofit plan. If the Government were to make an aggregated approach a priority, in Mr. Armstrong's opinion and given his experience in the midlands, what would be needed to make that happen?

There was significant focus on timber and a timber-first approach. Does the Department see opportunities in alternative technologies like hempcrete and 3D printing?

My last question relates to the area of demolition and demolition waste. When I speak to people in local authorities, I hear about Articles 27 and 28. I know they have come up as an issue in the housing committee's report. There is need for improvement with regard to licensing under those articles.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

The first question was on the 75,000 shallow retrofits. The Deputy was really asking how many will have to be revisited to achieve a B2 standard. The B2 level or the cost-optimal level is typically achieved with wall insulation, attic insulation and an efficient heating system. Where those units were cavity wall units, attic insulation and cavity wall filling was probably carried out, assuming they were 4 in. cavity walls. If they had a relatively new boiler, that would probably bring them to the cost-optimal level. If there were solid-wall dwellings, they would have only had attic insulation done. They would not have had external wall insulation installed. A lot of older local authority houses are solid-wall dwellings and will need to be revisited. It is a technical issue. Solid-wall dwellings would not have been retrofitted under the shallow retrofit programme and will need to be renovated under the B2 programme.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

My next question relates to aggregation. Is the Department's targeting of clusters or individual homes in a local authority area for deep retrofitting arbitrary? Is it based on BER ratings, energy poverty or household incomes? How are homes identified and prioritised?

Mr. Seán Armstrong

The Department funds various types of works, including external insulation, cavity wall insulation and internal insulation, and local authorities select the dwellings they wish to retrofit. The Department encourages local authorities to take a wide range of dwellings and not to cherry-pick high-performing dwellings and just put cavity wall and attic insulation in them. The average departmental grant is approximately €33,000. There is also 10% for project management fees, bringing the average total grant for each dwelling to €36,000. That can increase to €48,800 depending on dwelling type and complexity. The Department has found that the average figure works for local authorities across the various types of housing.

Aggregation is about marketing retrofits to private homeowners while the local authority retrofit programme is taking place, with a co-ordinating body to take responsibility for the grant and, possibly, the local authority houses and for retrofitting dwellings in an area. So-----

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

Is there an efficiency to be gained from it? I am conscious that we have an acute workforce shortage and-----

Mr. Seán Armstrong

The greater the scale, the greater the efficiency that can be achieved. It is easier for contractors to work in a single location than in multiple ones. The greater the scale, the more repeatability and the quicker this can be achieved. The challenge is in bringing local authority and private dwellings into a single project.

Regarding technologies, using modern methods of construction is a key Government policy. We are using the UK's definition of “modern methods of construction”, which has seven subcategories, including: modular units; panelised units; mass-engineered timber, namely, cross-laminated timber, CLT; innovative on-site construction techniques, for example, insulated concrete formwork; technology like 3D printing; and other innovative techniques, for example, hempcrete. The Government has established the Construct Innovate research centre, which is available for carrying out research and supporting initiatives. From a Housing for All perspective, we want to apply technologies that are fit for their intended use in the conditions in which they are to be used, comply with all parts of the building regulations, and have a 60-year durability. It is key that the social housing we are delivering meets all performance requirements under the building regulations. We need to develop innovative technologies to the stage they can demonstrate compliance with all parts of the building regulations and can be commercialised and rolled out on a commercial scale. We need to use every technology available to us to address the Housing for All and climate action challenges before us.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

Reading the note on Articles 27 and 28, I remembered conversations with environmental officers in various local authorities about how to avoid demolition. That is the right approach, but where demolition is happening, it seems that the licensing system is acting as a barrier in practical terms to the reuse of materials and is contributing to more construction waste ending up in landfill or elsewhere.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

The licensing system is managed by the EPA. There are proposals in Housing for All and the Climate Action Plan about streamlining it and making it more effective for the construction sector. That is the current situation.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

Is there an opportunity? It would be for the EPA to assess the consequences of the licensing system and various policies on where materials end up.

Mr. Seán Armstrong

My understanding is that the policy remit rests with the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I thank Mr. Armstrong.

Chairman

That is it. We have had a thorough and interesting session. It will help us as we go forward-----

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

I am sorry, but I indicated that I wanted to ask a follow-up question.

Chairman

Was it on the written piece?

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

Yes. It will be a short question.

I am one of those who are concerned about recent reports. When a colleague asked about building controls, the chain on building controls was mentioned, but it appears that a link in the chain is breaking or letting the other links down. I am referring to An Bord Pleanála's decisions, particularly as regards fire safety. Local authorities' fire safety certificates and requirements in respect of fire safety have been appealed to An Bord Pleanála. In 90% of cases, An Bord Pleanála has agreed to the overturning or dilution of fire safety conditions. The main reason this is important is because of the risk to human life and the safety of people who live in apartments, but the deletion of conditions on, for example, the provision of sprinklers or measures that would mitigate or control a fire also has an environmental impact. We have spoken a great deal about local authorities and the obligations on them. Is there a danger that some regulations and building controls are being diluted at a higher level? I am conscious that part of that is to make clear what is required versus what is guidance. Is it about strengthening the regulations, which is in the Department's remit, or is it about being much firmer in how planning regulations are applied? The latter is not in Ms Neary's unit's remit, but it may be one of the issues reflected in the written answer we are going to get. We have seen this in terms of fire safety, but it may apply in many other areas of the standards and regulations we have been discussing. For example, there has been a significant dilution of laws relating to light in many An Bord Pleanála decisions.

Chairman

Do the witnesses wish to respond now or leave it for the written reply? I do not mind.

Ms Sarah Neary

I will give a short response. Part B of the building regulations deals with fire safety and has been undergoing a significant review in recent years. Due to the complexity involved, it has been separated into dwellings and other buildings. Part B and technical guidance document, TGD, B are out for public consultation. The review represents a complete reworking of TGD B.

It is now a document that contains all of the references. They reviewed the situation post Grenfell and the position relating to emerging technologies, and modernised a document that dated back to the 1990s. In doing so, they clarified a number of issues. Hopefully, there are fewer grey areas and fewer reasons for appeal.

There is also a steering group on research, the membership of which includes fire officers in local authorities. This was established for areas that cannot be covered by the technical guidance document. There is much more happening in that space now. An Bord Pleanála is semi-judicial in its functions. In that regard, it is the appeals body in the context of fire safety certificates. The numbers of appeals are quite low in terms of overall activity in the sector.

Chairman

That is it. I thank the Department officials again. This has been an engaging and interesting session. If I may say, some members expressed concern about the Department’s remit and the country staying on track in respect of its climate targets. Notwithstanding all the fantastic work the Department is doing, we have to be sure that the sector follows that path to 2030 and the overall 50% society-wide cut in carbon emissions. The session today was helpful and gives us much food for thought. We hope to have the Minister before us in the coming weeks. We will have the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Ryan, in on Thursday morning for the first in our series of meetings with the relevant Ministers. It is part of our role under the climate legislation to hold Ministers to account for progress in the context of the climate action plan.

We will adjourn now and meet later today in private session.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.22 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 16 February 2023.