Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage debate -
Tuesday, 18 Apr 2023

Housing for All: Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage

An Cathaoirleach

Good afternoon everybody, and welcome. We are continuing our series of meetings on Housing for All. We are joined by the following assistant secretaries from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage,: Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh, housing policy, legislation and governance; Ms Áine Stapleton, social housing delivery; and Ms Caroline Timmons, housing affordability, inclusion and homelessness. Members have been circulated with the opening statement and briefing that the Department sent in advance, and I thank the Department for that.

We have had a long series of meetings with local government representatives. We have had ten or maybe 12 executives of local government and affordable housing bodies before us. We are generally looking at the historical, the current and the trajectory on social housing, affordable housing, cost rental, affordable rental, etc. We are now approaching the conclusion of the series of meetings. That is why we invited the Department in today to conclude and we have invited the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, to attend next week.

I thank the officials for their attendance. I acknowledge the incredible workload that they are under across all of their divisions and that when we bring them in here for the day, it takes them away from that important work. We appreciate their time here.

I will read a brief note on privilege before we commence with the opening statement and then here members' contributions. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place in which the Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. For those witnesses attending in the committee room, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their contributions to today's meeting. This means they will have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. Both members and witnesses are expected not to abuse the privilege they enjoy. It is my duty as Chair to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if any statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, the speaker will be directed to discontinue his or her remarks. It is imperative that the speaker complies with any such direction. Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. Ó Coigligh to make his opening statement on behalf of the Department.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Chathaoirleach agus leis na baill den choiste.

I thank the committee for the invitation to appear before it today. I welcome the opportunity to update members on the progress made since the publication of Housing for All in September 2021.

I am assistant secretary in the housing policy legislation and governance division in the Department. My role is to support the implementation of Housing for All working with colleagues across the Department. I am accompanied by my colleagues, the assistant secretaries, Ms Áine Stapleton and Ms Caroline Timmons.

It has been 20 months since Housing for All was published. We have seen significant progress in delivery over that time but the landscape in which we have been operating has also changed quite considerably. In the past year alone, the Department has contended with the impacts from the war in Ukraine, rising construction costs, increased energy prices and rising interest rates. We have had to keep the core issues and challenges we face in sharp focus while remaining agile in adapting to emerging issues.

An in-built review mechanism is written into Housing for All for this very purpose. The Housing for All updated action plan, published on 2 November, sets out how the Government is responding to these emerging issues. A total of 33 priority actions were identified in the review that will activate and accelerate the delivery of housing supply, whilst also continuing to deliver on the fundamental reforms set out in the plan.

Before I touch on where the Department's efforts will lie for the rest of 2023 and beyond, I want to highlight some of the things already achieved since the publication of Housing for All. We have seen the highest social housing build output, in 2022, for a number of decades. We have seen delivery of the State's ambition to create a new form of tenure called "cost rental", first set out in the Affordable Housing Act 2021, with real people now living in real cost-rental homes. We have seen homes provided under a new affordable purchase scheme, the first affordable purchase homes in more than a decade. The first home shared equity scheme was launched, which helps first-time buyers and fresh start home-buyers purchase a newly built home in a private development anywhere in the State. We have extended the help-to-buy scheme and enhanced the local authority home loan. Project Tosaigh was launched to support the activation of stalled private developments. The Croí Cónaithe - cities - scheme was launched to support the building of apartments for sale to owner-occupiers. A comprehensive review of planning legislation has significantly progressed and as the committee members all know, has just completed pre-legislative scrutiny. Considerable work has gone into the drafting of the proposed land value sharing and urban development zones legislation and a revised general scheme was published on Friday last. The exemplar housing first scheme has been expanded and by the end of 2022, a total of 804 individuals are supported through this programme. The new vacant property refurbishment grant was launched, and will now be expanded to homes which can be rented to private tenants. A whole suite of protections for tenants have been legislated for including rent increase caps in rent pressure zones, restricted deposit amounts, extended notice periods and the introduction of tenancies of unlimited duration.

Housing for All sets out a pathway to delivering an average of 33,000 homes a year over the lifetime of the plan. The funding required has been secured. The guaranteed State investment of more than €4 billion a year to support the largest State-led building programme ever will provide the certainty the sector needs to deliver on the ambition of Housing for All. Budget 2023 will support the delivery of in excess of 11,000 social homes, including 9,100 new build homes, and 5,500 affordable homes this year. More than €1 billion will be spent on affordable measures in 2023.

In 2022, the first full year of Housing for All delivery, almost 30,000 homes were completed. This is an increase of 45% compared to 2021 but, importantly, it is an increase of more than 41% from 2019 completions, the last full pre-Covid pandemic year. In 2022, almost 57,000 homes were either commenced or completed.

The 2022 social housing figures, published yesterday, show that more new build social homes were delivered last year than in any year since the mid-1970s. Last year also represents the first year of affordable housing delivery in a generation. From a standing start, real progress has been made in 2022 with the initial delivery of affordable homes arising out of the new affordable housing schemes introduced in the 2021 Act. This delivery will only strengthen throughout 2023 and beyond. The Department is completely focused on scaling up the delivery of new homes, be they social, affordable, for the private rental sector or for private owner occupation.

This year will see the extension of phase 1 and the launch of phase 2 of Project Tosaigh to support the activation of stalled private developments. There will be a second call under Croí Cónaithe cities to support the construction of apartments in urban areas.

The Department, with the support of colleagues across government, will progress recommendations from a cost of construction analysis and a cost of finance study that have recently been completed, all of which will support the increase in supply needed.

We have also commenced a comprehensive review of the private rental sector to take account of the significant regulatory changes in recent years. The Government decided on this course of action in the context of the introduction of the winter pause in evictions. The aim is to ensure our housing system provides an efficient, affordable, safe and secure framework that works for tenants and those who provide homes to tenants. An issues paper will be published on the review shortly, with the aim of concluding the review by the summer following stakeholder engagement. Several additional measures are being put in place to mitigate potential incidences of homelessness. These include the expansion of the first home and tenant in situ schemes, as well as the development of a cost-rental tenant in situ scheme. A legislative first right of refusal for existing tenants has also been worked on.

Overall, the Department is focused on delivering and increasing delivery across all fronts. The committee will be aware, for example, of the changes to planning requirements for social homes delivery and a significant new programme of delivery using modern methods of construction in the context of major funding to relieve local authorities with indebted land. In recent weeks, the Government decided on several additional measures, such as an increase in tenant in situ purchase in the context of the ending of the winter eviction ban period. These measures are part of that evolving agile response that will continue to be taken to meet our housing challenges and that will be reflected in the annual review process. This is a key part of the Housing for All policy. The committee will appreciate that Housing for All is a cross-government initiative, with many actions for many Departments. My colleagues and I will be happy to answer as many questions as we can today.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Ó Coigligh. Moving to questions from the members of the committee, we generally do this in seven-minute slots for the questions to be asked and answers to be received as well. I call Senator Fitzpatrick.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

I thank the officials for being with us today and for the work they and all their colleagues are doing in the Department on Housing for All. I think any independent analysis would conclude that Housing for All is the most comprehensive housing plan in the history of the State and the best resourced. It has significant funding and legislative changes backing it up. The commitments to eliminate homelessness by 2030 and to prioritise social housing are very important. In my area, in the constituency of Dublin Central, this new social housing is the first we have seen in a decade. It is on Dominic Street and North King Street and at Ellis Court. Ellis Court speaks as well to the reusing of existing built structures. The priority, therefore, is not just new builds but also the fastest and most sustainable way of increasing our housing stock using existing vacant properties. I greatly support and very much welcome this activity. When we talk about housing, though, and I come at this from a city perspective, Dublin City Council, DCC, has a pipeline of approximately 15,000 homes in various stages of design, development, construction and completion. This is welcome. It is the biggest housing programme DCC has undertaken in decades. It is being resourced to deliver the programme and it is great to see this housing coming onstream. For the first time in decades, we are seeing new permanent homes in the city.

I wish to focus my first line of questioning on the delivery of affordable housing in the city. It is easy to recognise that Dublin is the part of the country with the highest demand for housing. Dublin City Council and other providers will say it is the most challenging space in which to try to build new homes. Approved housing bodies, AHBs, private developers and the local authority will all say that the sites in the city are more complex and more costly as a consequence. Regarding all the new builds, we all know the cost of construction inflation has driven the cost of housing up in the city. We are on a par now with other international cities in this regard. The need for affordable housing, therefore, cannot be greater in any other part of the country than it is in Dublin city. What action is the Department taking to ensure that priority is being given to the delivery of affordable housing in the city? Before the passing of the Affordable Housing Act 2021, we did not have any form of affordable housing. Now, legislatively, since July 2021 we have affordable purchase and affordable cost-rental for the first time. It feels like the delivery in the city is slow, though. What is the Department doing to address this aspect and to accelerate the delivery of affordable housing in Dublin city?

Ms Caroline Timmons

The Senator is right. Dublin City Council has proven to be complex in respect of the delivery of affordable housing, largely for the reasons the Senator set out. Over the past year, however, we have seen the development of a very good working relationship with DCC and the people delivering housing there. Additional resources are being provided, of course, into the housing department to work on that aspect and we are seeing a level of ambition coming forward from DCC to deliver affordable housing in the city. Its housing delivery action plan set out an ambition to deliver 2,000 units out to 2026. We are seeing mixed-tenure sites coming forward that will achieve this delivery for us, in addition to social housing delivery. We have the likes of O'Devaney Gardens, Emmet Road, Oscar Traynor Road, Cherry Orchard and Balbutcher Lane. Those projects are all coming forward, but it does take time. They are big, complex mixed-tenure sites, and this is exactly what we would like to see, but it does take much more time to do than bringing forward, for example, advanced purchase sites as we might be able to do elsewhere. Delivery by the Land Development Agency, LDA, in the case of the former St. Teresa's Gardens, for example, has worked well and a good relationship is developing between the DCC and the LDA. The project at Cromcastle is also being developed with the LDA.

We can, therefore, see sites being developed for affordable housing. We would like to accelerate this, so we are working with DCC in this regard to see if there is anything the Department or the Housing Agency can do. Obviously, if there are measures we can take to assist, then we will. At the moment, we are helping the council with its modelling and proceeding with any applications with all due haste. Over the longer term, then, we can certainly see the pipeline of housing developing in Dublin city. What is more difficult is for the AHBs to provide cost-rental housing in Dublin city. The overall cost of developing housing is problematic for them. Again, we are working on this through a review of the current cost rental equity loan, CREL, to see if we can tailor it a little better to give those organisations more space to provide these projects in Dublin city. We would like to see the AHBs doing a bit more in this area. We are keen to see if we can get something coming through in this regard in the next year. DCC has the Hole in the Wall Road site in Clongriffin and this is coming through as an AHB cost-rental development funded by a CREL loan. We are delighted to see those units coming through. That will happen in 2024 and it will probably be our first cost-rental development in Dublin city undertaken with the AHBs. We will keep this momentum going and keep working with those organisations in this regard.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

That is all great and very welcome. We are coming out of a decade of undersupply of homes in the city, accepting that the greatest need is here in the city. It is welcome that the Croí Cónaithe scheme grant to deal with vacant properties has been made available in the city, but this is very much dependent on owner occupiers and individuals. It will deliver some homes, though, and the tenant in situ scheme is really going to help as well and for the first time make affordable homes available for renters.

What about the adaptive reuse aspect, though? DCC has established a department in this regard, showing great initiative, to look at vacant commercial properties and to reuse and repurpose them. Tuath Housing has a great example out in Park West. There are also some other smaller scale examples. It strikes me, though, that in the city, post Covid-19, given the vacancy level in commercial buildings, councils should be further resourced to scale up and try to take advantage, on a cost-rental basis, of those vacant properties. Is this something the Department can support or is supporting?

Ms Caroline Timmons

Yes, it is an area we have been interested in. We have been talking about it for a while now. An application has been submitted for European funding for a project on adaptive reuse. I think DCC is involved in that undertaking, along with the local authority in Cork. This is an interesting area to try to mirror some of what is happening at European level in respect of the New European Bauhaus initiative and making adaptive reuse a reality. We also have urban regeneration and development fund, URDF, moneys coming forward, amounting to €150 million. This will be available to local authorities specifically for vacancy and dereliction projects. We would like to see what local authorities can do in this space. We are actively looking at adaptive reuse as one of the ways we wish to see properties coming back into use that may not have been residential before.

The vacant homes grant, as a property grant, is for residential use but also old pubs and properties like that. They can re-adapted and brought forward as well. We are open to any of those areas. It is very important that Housing for All has a full chapter dedicated to making sure we have proper use of existing buildings. It is part of the matrix of what we are looking at.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Go raibh maith agat.

An Cathaoirleach

In the planning Bill there is a streamlining of compulsory purchase order, CPO, processes as well, which will be helpful.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I thank the witnesses for the presentation. I also want to acknowledge the significant amount of work done by them and their team. We are conscious of that. For the benefit of the committee, will Mr. Ó Coigligh or Ms Timmons remind us of last year's global target for affordable housing delivery.

Ms Caroline Timmons

Last year it was 4,100.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

What was the delivery reported yesterday?

Ms Caroline Timmons

The delivery reported yesterday was 1,757. I can break that down further if the Deputy would like.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

No. I will go through a few questions. Within that there is a target of 500 affordable purchase homes. The number delivered was 323. That is not a new scheme. That scheme, under the name of the serviced sites fund, was introduced in 2019. How has it taken such a long time to get such a small number of affordable purchase homes? I accept that it takes 12 months to build these, and 12 months or so to get through the approval process. We had Covid etc., but it seems like a long time to produce a small number. How confident is Ms Timmons that number is going to start increasing significantly in the next year or two, including this year?

Ms Caroline Timmons

The serviced sites fund was initially made available for the provision of infrastructure. It started life as a very different fund. It was not until we put the affordable housing fund in place that local authorities in particular could use that to subsidise the overall cost of affordable housing. We needed the Act and provisions to be in place to have the type of equity scheme we have in place for people now. That is one of the reasons. We did not have all of the machinery in place. Now that we do, we can see the delivery start to ramp up. Having waited for us to the put the legislation in place, the local authorities had to learn how to deliver under the new affordable housing fund, and the legislation that was in place. That has taken some time, but it has really got there over the past year. I have seen huge progress made by local authorities in understanding that.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Does Ms Timmons know how many units are currently in the pipeline for the affordable housing fund, at various stages in the process?

Ms Caroline Timmons

There are 2,100 units on the affordable purchase side. There are another 1,000 on the cost rental side. Of the 2,100 on the affordable purchase-----

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

There are just 1,000 units on the cost rental. Is that through CREL?

Ms Caroline Timmons

Yes, that is through AHBs.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

And the cost rental equity loan.

Ms Caroline Timmons

It is also local authority delivery for cost rental. The affordable housing fund, AHF, can be applied for by local authorities for delivery of cost rental

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

To be clear, there are 2,400 in the pipeline for affordable purchase. Using that fund there is also another 1,000 in the pipeline for cost rental.

Ms Caroline Timmons

Cost rental for AHF delivered cost rental. That is for local authority cost rental.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Perfect.

Ms Caroline Timmons

The CREL delivery is separate. There is additional for AHBs. Of the 2,100 we were talking about, approximately 300 of those were delivered last year. We are talking about 1,700 approved units going forward. Of those there are another 900 to 1,000 currently under the assessment process. Those will be coming through under AHF approvals later in the year. We have a pipeline from local authorities who have advised us in their housing delivery action plans of about 9,000 units overall that will come in for AHF funding throughout 2023.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

That is 9,000 including all of the figures.

Ms Caroline Timmons

That is the start of seeing that 9,000 coming through for funding.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

What is the expectation for delivery of units this year?

Ms Caroline Timmons

I do not have a pipeline that is completely visible yet. What happens with affordable housing, a little unlike social, is that our pipeline is not as clear at the start of the year. Technically, it is because we have different delivery streams. We have LDA, AHB and local authority. My expectation is that pipeline will build over the year towards 5,550. I do not have a firm pipeline to give the Deputy today, if that is okay.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I appreciate the LDA is one step removed, so it is hard to have annualised targets for them. Is it the hope, as it has been since the start of Rebuilding Ireland, to have annualised targets for social housing broken down by local authority? Will we also have the same for affordable purchase and cost rental through the AHBs and CREL? Is there any reason why that could not be done in the same it is done for social housing through local authorities and approved housing bodies?

Ms Caroline Timmons

They are all on the high level affordable group. To date, through the high level affordable delivery group we have talked about what they might be able to do in any given year. What they are doing is bringing proposals for overall figures through to that group. We are not setting overall targets for them, so it will be a mix of delivery across whatever stream is able to produce the pipeline. At the moment I do not think we are proposing to set annualised targets for the other delivery streams.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Okay. I have two separate questions in the two minutes remaining. Last year, as with the two years before, there was a shortfall in new builds on the social housing side. The total shortfall for the three years was 8,537 units. This is a conversation we have had before. Will those units be added to the targets as set out in the housing plan over the coming years, or will the targets set out in the housing plan be left as they are? It is quite a lot of units. That is one question.

The second question is on a separate topic. I am starting to get correspondence from people in different parts of the country about Croí Cónaithe towns. Their banks will not allow them to draw down the mortgages because there are ongoing negotiations between the Department and the Banking and Payments Federation of Ireland, BPFI, in relation to the treatment of the clawback fund. Can the committee have an update on where those discussions are? Does that mean that at this point in time no Croí Cónaithe town funding has been drawn down because the lenders for the principal mortgages are not permitting drawdowns are this point in time? I apologise, but I have 55 seconds for the answer.

An Cathaoirleach

I will allow a bit more.

Ms Áine Stapleton

I will be quick. I will deal first with social housing, and the issue of delivery versus targets. We have a framework under Housing for All for the housing delivery action plans, which are multi-annual. Now that we have the 2022 statistics bedded down we will be engaging with the local authorities about the delivery of those targets over the period of the plan. We have an expectation that the targets would be delivered over the period of the plan. We will be looking to a review of the housing delivery action plans in that light.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Is there any intention to attempt to make up the shortfall of 8,500 units over the past three years? That is a significant number of units lost for various reasons.

Ms Áine Stapleton

We will be looking at that overall five-year level of ambition for each local authority, because that was specifically linked to the social housing need in their area, and was set out by the local authorities themselves in their plans. We will be seeking to make up ground over the period of Housing for All. That is certainly our ambition.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Is there an answer on the Croí Cónaithe towns?

Ms Caroline Timmons

We were aware of an issue. It is not all banks, but certain queries have been put to the Department so we have started working with the BPFI on it. Our information today is that there is no particular legal issue. This is an administrative issue for the banks to work through. We are working with the banks and the BPFI to put in place a temporary fix if we need to, and over the longer term to solve those administrative issues by putting in place a priorities agreement. That would be similar to what we already have for the first home scheme. We can work with all of that.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

It took about nine or ten months to fix it for the affordable housing fund, because we had significant delays in those purchases. I know that is now resolved. Will it take as long to fix this?

Ms Caroline Timmons

I would trust that it will not. There is now experience of working with the banks for what we need. We are looking at what else we can do in the meantime, if we need, to make sure that happens. Drawdowns are happening under the grant as it is. This is affecting a small number of purchasers to date, but we are concerned to make sure it does not go on. We definitely want to have that resolved as soon as possible.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

For the information of the Chair, local authority home loans are currently not allowing drawdown of mortgages. There is an odd situation where somebody is applying to a local authority for a home loan . The Croí Cónaithe towns refurbishment grant gets approved for both but cannot proceed, because the home loan lender is not willing to allow the drawdown of the mortgage until that issue is resolved.

Ms Caroline Timmons

I want to advise the Deputy that I was not aware of that particular case. I was aware of a particular bank. If he has details of it he might let me have them at the end of the meeting. Would that be okay?

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

There are also problems with EBS, AIB and Bank of Ireland. I will forward that directly to Ms Timmons.

An Cathaoirleach

It is a scheme, which has been sought for many years. It is successful in many places. If we can iron out those lending difficulties I think we will see even more success with the Croí Cónaithe towns scheme.

Deputy Emer Higgins

I thank the witnesses for their attendance and I thank them and their teams for the work they do to make Housing for All more than just a plan. They are making it a reality for all of the people who desperately need that.

We know housing is a crisis, and we know we need to accelerate the delivery of homes. However, it is also important to acknowledge the fantastic work that the Department's teams are doing in making sure that we have the right conditions, people and schemes in place to deliver those homes. We have record investment and delivery of new homes. I see it in my own constituency of Dublin Mid-West. I see building sites, boots on the grounds and cranes in the sky. People can really see, with their own eyes, the progress that is happening, and it is a matter of accelerating it to make sure that we deliver more homes for people who need them.

It is great to see the first-time buyer figures as well, for this year and last year, and to see how many new first-time buyers are in a position to be able to purchase their own home. I am particularly interested in learning a little bit about how many people are availing of two of the schemes mentioned here, the help to buy scheme and the first home shared equity scheme. Obviously, the help to buy scheme has been around a long time, has a good name, and we know is being drawn down by people in their thousands. However, I would be interested to hear what figures are available at this stage on the first home shared equity scheme, which is newer and not as widely known. I saw Bláthnaid Treacy promoting it on social media in recent days. I know Ms Timmons was down at the National Ploughing Championships promoting it there. There is a lot happening in making sure the message is getting out there, but I would be really keen to understand how many people are availing of that, and if there is anything that we as public representatives can do to promote that scheme so more people get it.

I welcome the review of the private rental sector. That is important, because right now it is an extremely difficult environment for renters. The renters' tax credit is a help. I do not know if the Department has these figures available, or if they are more a matter for Revenue. However, if there was an indication as to how widely that is being drawn down it would be really useful to know.

Cost rental is coming on stream. We see it in my own area, in Newcastle and Clondalkin. We have cost rental properties available there. I would welcome an update as well on how many cost rental properties there have been so far, and what that pipeline is like for this year.

It is really good to hear there is so much happening in the affordability space. This is really, in my mind, where we have to correct things. Regarding that target from last year, we need to make sure those numbers are absorbed into this year and that affordability comes into the market. That is absolutely what I am hearing on the ground.

I would like to get some updates on the first home shared equity scheme, cost rental, the tax credits and then anything further on affordability.

Ms Caroline Timmons

The first home shared equity scheme was set up last year, and it has been very successful to date. We are very pleased to see that. There was inordinate work put in to get that done. It started in July, and to the end of the year we had 750 approvals under the scheme. In the first quarter of this year however, we have seen a huge uptake in the numbers, and we are already at 1,336 approvals by the end of quarter 1. That demand for the scheme is really there, and we are seeing people purchasing real houses under the scheme now. It is very gratifying to see that happening, given that it was in Housing for All just as a notional thing. To actually see it in place is great. We are in 24 counties with this scheme now as well, which means that it is making affordable purchase a reality for many people in counties where we do not yet have a local authority affordable purchase scheme. That is obviously widening out its scope.

We have registered interest at this point of 3,556 people, so of the 8,000 that we intend to do under that scheme we have a very good line of sight of what we are going to be getting. We are very happy to see it. At the start of the year, we also revised the house price ceilings, so we are keeping a very close eye on that. The scheme, or the designated activity company, DAC itself, works on looking at what the median prices are for the first-time buyers in the areas, and revising accordingly. It also keeps an eye on any inflationary effects, and will monitor that very closely into the future.

I will maybe answer Deputy Higgins about the cost rental-----

Deputy Emer Higgins

Will 8,000 be enough?

Ms Caroline Timmons

For now, we just need to see what the projections are into the future, and what we might need. We can look at that again closer to the time. We have funding and numbers in place for the next few years, but obviously there will be an openness to look at more if that is necessary at that point. It is possibly too early to make decisions yet, but we will see where we go on that.

I might mention in relation to cost rental delivery, that we were very happy to see the numbers of cost rentals coming through. We had 684 units delivered in 2022, and that is up from 65 the previous year, so one can start to see a real cost rental policy being put into place for real people. That has been very good to see as well. We have had it across the board in a number of counties, like Kildare, which has done very well, as have south Dublin, Dún Laoghaire, Cork city and Fingal. These areas have all seen Respond and Clúid doing a fantastic job through the approved housing body, AHB, so we are very much thankful for the partnership with the AHBs on that front. We have also recently seen local development association, LDA delivery in their first cost rental units in Wicklow and Citywest, so that has been great to see coming forward. The proof of the concept is now there, and people are living in homes with stable rents and assured tenancies. That is a really important development.

Deputy Emer Higgins

That is fantastic.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

I would like to come in on the rental review. There is going to be a significant development. When putting the winter eviction plan in place, it was very clear to the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, the Minister and the Government that a strategic look needed to be taken at the market and the exit of landlords. A lot of work was done in recent years to increase protections for tenants and so on. In the debates in the House over recent weeks, there were a lot of calls for that enduring right of tenancy, greater protections for tenants and so on. There will always be a need for a private rental sector, and the objective is to have in place a system whereby tenants in that sector are well looked after and have security and, on the obverse side, to ensure that those who provide accommodation have an incentive to do so. It makes it worthwhile. That is the overall ambition of the review.

We will be publishing an issues paper in a couple of weeks' time hopefully, and we will set out a comprehensive paper. We will have lots of questions and a public consultation, and it might be worthwhile engaging with the committee at that stage once the paper is published, to get the members' feedback.

An Cathaoirleach

The committee would be agreeable to that. I thank Deputy Higgins, and I move now to Senator Boyhan.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I thank the Chair, and I want to thank Ms Timmons, Mr. Ó Coigligh, Ms Stapleton and their team for being here today and for laying out what they have achieved and done. However, we still have a major issue; we have a housing crisis. We have a Government now past its mid-term in office. There is huge expectation, understandably and rightly, from people who cannot either afford or access social housing. They cannot afford to rent, and they cannot afford to take up employment in our major cities. That is the reality of it.

We need to get back to some of the basics. We can lose the run of ourselves, clapping ourselves on the back. I do not know if anyone saw RTÉ's documentary last night. I want to pay tribute to RTÉ, but to see so many people in the city of Dublin homeless, with no feeling of support or access, is shocking. I thank the media, per se, for the way it has continued to shine a light on this housing crisis. It has been responsible and, yes, it has made people uncomfortable but rightly so. We have a crisis, and we must not lose sight of that.

Could Ms Timmons tell me - for instance in Dublin Fingal, the constituency of the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy O'Brien - how many social houses were built last year in Dublin Fingal?

Ms Áine Stapleton

I will take that question. I can give Senator Boyhan the figures for Dublin overall, but I can come back to him with a breakdown-----

Senator Victor Boyhan

Ms Stapleton might come back to me. I particularly want, as I said, the Dublin ones.

Ms Áine Stapleton

I will just check in with the local authority regarding the breakdown.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Ms Stapleton does not know the figure. Could she tell the committee today what are the direct social houses built by Fingal County Council in 2022?

Ms Áine Stapleton

I may have it actually, if the Senator gives me a moment, I will check.

Senator Victor Boyhan

That is great. I will give Ms Stapleton plenty of time. I will move on, as I am conscious of time.

Ms Áine Stapleton

Actually, I have it here, Senator. I will put my glasses on to see the data for him. The total new build for Fingal is-----

Senator Victor Boyhan

The figure for social housing direct build by Fingal County Council in 2022.

Ms Áine Stapleton

I have a total figure of 361, and that is broken down into a local authority new build of 136, an AHB new build of 85, and Part 5 of 140.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Okay. Ms Stapleton might just provide the committee with the most up-to-date figures she has for all of the authorities.

That would be very helpful with regard to our considerations.

Ms Áine Stapleton

Absolutely.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I will move on to some points on today's statement. The Department talks about a new vacant property refurbishment grant. It has already been launched but the Department intends to expand it to homes that can be rented to private tenants. Will the witnesses touch on that?

Ms Caroline Timmons

To date, the vacant property refurbishment grant has been for owner-occupiers. We have extended it nationally. Hitherto, it had been for properties built before 1993. As part of the review of the grant, we have been looking at what improvements can be made to expand it and to make sure it is available as widely as possible. In that respect, we are looking at making three changes. We are looking at including properties built up to 2007, prior to which different building regulations were in place. They will still have to be vacant for two years. That condition will stay in place. We will also be looking at including rental properties rather than just properties that are owner-occupied. That will expand the availability of properties in the rental sector. We will also be looking at the grant rates in light of recent evidence regarding the construction cost increases we have seen over the last year and some reports we have seen recently.

Senator Victor Boyhan

The Department might keep the committee up to speed as these changes are rolled out and the plan progressed.

Ms Caroline Timmons

Yes, absolutely.

Senator Victor Boyhan

The statement refers to modern methods of construction in the context of major funding to relieve local authorities with indebted lands. I presume that touches on the historic land aggregation sites. Will the witnesses touch on what is in mind when talking about modern methods of construction? We have an historic land aggregation scheme. The local authorities offered some lands back, some of which were rejected by the Department. They were acquired for the development of housing. That is a significant land bank, particularly in the greater Dublin area. What are the Department's plans for this block of lands, with which the witnesses will be very familiar as part of the land aggregation scheme?

Ms Áine Stapleton

I might take that. Towards the end of 2022, we provided financing of the order of €94 million to 12 local authorities for a range of sites to which legacy debt was attached. This was conditional on a commitment from those local authorities to accelerated delivery using modern methods of construction on those sites and that delivery would commence before the end of 2024. We expect a number of those sites will commence this year. We are seeing very good engagement by those local authorities and a strong commitment to working with us and working through the modern methods of construction, MMC, process. We see it as an exemplar for the wider sector that there is a commitment from the State to support the use of MMC in developing public housing through this first block of 1,500. We see it as an opportunity for the industry to build up capacity so that, in the future, these methods can be further expanded as a mode of delivery.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Would the Department be able to supply the committee with a memo in respect of those 12 sites and the associated targets? That would be very helpful. I appreciate that most of these sites are being repaid on an interest-only basis. The capital is never repaid. It represents great indebtedness for the local authorities. Clearly, we have to address the issue of bringing forward housing on those lands. It would be very helpful to understand those 12 locations with regard to the stage we have reached with each, the delivery methods being used and the numbers of new homes that are going to be created. It would be helpful if the Department could send us on a memo rather than teasing it out any further now.

Ms Áine Stapleton

We would be very happy to do that. I might ask my colleague, Mr. Ó Coigligh, to talk more broadly about the approach to MMC under Housing for All, which is led by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment supported by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

The Senator prefaced his remarks with reference to the overall crisis. Nobody takes issue with that at all. The approach of Housing for All is a cross-government one because no single response will solve all of these issues. However, modern methods of construction are seen as a very important part of the solution. The State's efforts and leadership through the local government system will be key. There can sometimes be a misconception that modern methods of construction are lower cost or lower quality methods. They are neither but they can be more timely and quicker. They can also help with another issue. If we build the scale of delivery of MMC, producers and manufacturers will build facilities in Ireland, as they already have, to accommodate MMC. You then get people working in much more agreeable environments when building our houses and people happy to go into careers in the area. It all supports a much more sustainable construction sector. On many levels, modern methods of construction offer very important tools in addressing our future housing needs.

An Cathaoirleach

It is my slot now. I will use my time to continue on that topic. As a committee, we recently visited Mount Lucas to have a look at some of the technology advancements there. It is highly impressive. The waste on sites associated with building using conventional old-fashioned means is massive. MMC are highly efficient. We are building the skills base we need to meet not only our housing needs, but all of our infrastructural needs.

I have a couple of questions. I will not get to them all. Cost rental is a game-changer and will be over the next decade or so. We are starting to see that at the moment. When I talk to people about cost rental, it seems that this housing system is still unknown. I recently talked to people in Wicklow who have been successful in the Land Development Agency, LDA, scheme at Archers Wood. What is being produced there is of incredible quality. Rents are affordable and tenancies are secure, which is main thing for people. Some people wish to buy while some wish to rent but security of tenure is critical. Cost rental provides that. Do we have more work to do to promote cost rental and get more people to do it? The figure is 1,000 for the local authorities. The LDA came before the committee. It is going to lead strongly on this. It told us that it is targeting cost rental. The approved housing bodies, AHBs, are also involved. What are we looking at in total with regard to cost rental over the five-year period up to 2026?

Ms Caroline Timmons

I can talk about that. In Housing for All, we set out our ambition to provide 54,000 affordable homes, 18,000 of which were to be cost rental. We have targets out to 2026. Within that, we are looking at a two thirds-one third split between affordable purchase and cost rental. We are looking at that all of the time because things are changing. The development of cost rental is becoming more and more important. We are trying to make sure we are bringing forward as much as we can.

With regard to what we have in the pipeline for development over the next while, we have local authorities, AHBs and the LDA providing cost rental. You need all three coming forward with that. We need to do more on communications. The Housing Agency is developing a website on affordable housing for us. Consumers will be able to look at that and understand all of the various areas and, with particular regard to cost rental, how to apply and where the cost-rental homes that can be applied for are. We feel that is pretty crucial. That is very close to being developed and out there. I would say it will be up online in the next month. The Cathaoirleach is right that communications will be a priority for us at this point.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

If I may add to that, with regard to the review of the private rental sector I spoke about, this involves that cultural change and an understanding that this is an acceptable and attractive form of tenancy or living. I know we have our own cultural background in Ireland and there is no doubt that will continue but our society has also changed greatly. The leadership shown in this space could be very instructive in any wider roll-out.

An Cathaoirleach

I agree. It will take time. We met our colleagues in Vienna, which is obviously the poster child for the cost-rental model. There is a great number of people living in cost-rental homes there across the spectrum.

With regard to Project Tosaigh and the stalled planning applications, while I do not want the witnesses to name any particular site or anything, what have been the main reasons for those projects stalling? Is it the affordability gap or the viability gap? Will the witnesses outline what they would propose to bridge that viability gap?

Ms Caroline Timmons

I am happy to take that one. Project Tosaigh is an initiative around activating planning permissions that have not been commenced. The Cathaoirleach will have seen set out in Housing for All a figure of approximately 70,000 nationally, with 40,000 of these in Dublin. The most recent figures show that, since the publication of Housing for All and by the end of the third quarter of 2022, the figure for Dublin has grown to approximately 48,000. We are still in that space of unactivated planning permissions. You will see various reports, such as the Mitchell McDermott report, coming out telling us that, in many cases, it is about viability and bridging that gap.

Croí Cónaithe cities is doing some of that. It is important that someone in the market is looking to activate product, especially to bring it in for affordable use, and Project Tosaigh is doing that. It is working with developers who can bring forward sites to move them on for affordable housing. We have a target of 5,000 units for that. The LDA has a pipeline. It announced approximately 800 units this year and is expecting to deliver that. It is important to see that coming forward. We are also trying to bring forward measures other than Croí Cónaithe cities to look at viability. We will also look at viability measures for cost-rental housing and activating the build-to-rent permissions that may be sitting out there without investment at the moment. The Government has asked us to consider proposals for bringing those forward.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

On cost, one issue that is probably not appreciated by the public is that the building of apartments is more expensive per unit than the building of individual houses because apartments need services, fire safety, lifts, common spaces and so on. We need apartments, especially in our urban cores and around transport hubs. However, they are more costly. It is necessary to consider the costs of construction and finance, that planning delays have been costly and perhaps the labour force. Those issues require a whole range of actions to try to ensure units can be built at a lower cost so that the gap the State is being asked to fill in schemes such Project Tosaigh is lower. These are also long-term and challenging issues. For example, Ms Timmons mentioned a study we will be publishing shortly by consultants who also did other work for us on the cost of construction, comparing how much it costs to put a brick on top of a brick in Dublin versus Copenhagen. Interestingly, it is not very different but the types of apartments we sell in Dublin have a much higher spec than the types of apartments sold in Copenhagen. There is a cultural and societal issue there. Cost can be taken out but not everyone will be happy with that.

An Cathaoirleach

I am glad the sustainability aspect was raised. It is not purely about housing figures. Unless we can build at density and overcome affordability and viability issues, we will also encounter climate challenges. It is viable to keep building semi-detached houses on greenfield after greenfield. They could be built all day long and there would not be an affordability issue. However, affordability also relates to the carbon output and the locked-in carbon lifestyle that goes with continued spread. It is critical the State acts to bridge that gap and make that happen, as it does in many sectors of society. The State steps in and provides a grant or fund because it makes sense and is needed.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

Those external aspects are not shown. The houses the market provides have significant external costs that are not visible.

An Cathaoirleach

Absolutely. Driving for three hours per day is an incredible cost to someone's pocket that would not be accounted for in the affordability of a house. However, it is a living cost. I could talk about that all day.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Many of the challenges for people around affordability relate to the upfront costs, but I agree with those points. It is worth noting that construction has always been more expensive than traditional houses, long before there were lifts or fire safety regulations or anything else. For example, if we compare the building cost of Fatima Mansions compared with a traditional social house at the time, the unit cost of Fatima Mansions came in considerably higher than the cost of building a traditional house.

I thank the officials from the Department for coming. In the opening statement, Mr. Ó Coigligh referred to the 2022 housing figures and noted that they are higher than the numbers delivered in any year since the mid-1970s. Will the Department please help me with this? The number of units delivered, which was announced yesterday, is 7,433. According to Housing Agency figures, in 2008, 7,866 new-build social homes were delivered. Are the Housing Agency figures wrong or how can the discrepancy be explained?

Ms Áine Stapleton

I think we probably need to look back at the make-up of what was counted as a build in 2008. For a period, we included void units as part of the build output. If we compare like with like as regards what is now categorised as new build, that is where the comparative data come from.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Is Ms Stapleton confident that voids were being counted as new-build in 2008? I know that arose as an issue in more recent years.

Ms Áine Stapleton

I will have a look back at the 2008 data the Deputy refers to from the Housing Agency site and revert to the committee. However, I think it is likely that the categorisation is the reason for the difference.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Okay. I think the issue with voids arose when funding came from the Department to turn around voids under Rebuilding Ireland and they started getting counted as so-called new social homes when they were not, but that was much later than 2008. I do not think there was any funding from the Department for turning around voids before Rebuilding Ireland.

Ms Áine Stapleton

I am very happy to look at the Housing Agency data and come back to the committee to ensure we can look at the categorisation. I think it is likely, however, that the categorisation accounts for the difference with the Housing Agency data.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Has anyone ever suggested that voids were counted as new-builds in 2008? Has there been any suggestion of that before by anyone?

Ms Áine Stapleton

I will come back to the Deputy. I will have a look at what is contained in the Housing Agency data.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I am curious because I have never heard that stated about 2008 figures. I am wondering where Ms Stapleton is getting that suggestion from.

Ms Áine Stapleton

It was an example of the type of categorisation that may account for the difference because I have not actually seen the make-up of the Housing Agency data. I would like to have a look at them. I will revert to the committee on that.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I thank Ms Stapleton.

The examination of the legislative first right of refusal for existing tenants was also mentioned in the opening statement. Will the witnesses expand on that and tell us a little about the examination, such as what the timeline and expectations are?

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

As the Minister stated, the intention was to try to have legislation in place before the summer. There are significant tricky issues such as conveyancing and how it will work. The Department is working with policy papers and with our legal advisers to tease out the possibilities. Our intention is to bring policy proposals to the Government in the coming weeks and, if possible, to have those turned into legislative proposals for consideration by the Oireachtas before the summer.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

That is the hope. Is it too soon to be definitive about that?

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

That is the ambition but it is tricky.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

When the different local authorities were before the committee some, though not all of them, brought up the issue of the pipeline of land they have for social and affordable housing. Some stated that their pipeline of land is running out and will run out in the next few years. Some also stated they simply cannot compete with private developers to acquire zoned development land. They simply get out-bid. What can be done to address that? What is the Department looking at doing to address that?

Ms Áine Stapleton

I will answer that. In 2022, we put in place a housing acquisition fund of €125 million initially which is being overseen by the Housing Agency. Working with the local authorities, it is facilitating the purchase of land to address the issue of the land gap for social housing delivery. It is very much a strategy to encourage more local authority own-build and to ensure we have that pipeline of land going forward. The valuation of land will be an issue. It will be expensive in some areas but the local authorities will have the additional guidance and expertise of the Housing Agency to ensure valuations are independently achieved and we get best value for money in the circumstances.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

One of the issues is the funding for land that is near ready for use. It can make sense to build up a pipeline of land some years in advance to get better value so that each local authority has that.

Is that issue being looked at in terms of their ability to build up a pipeline and sometimes be able to get better value or even acquire land before it is rezoned and those sorts of things?

Ms Áine Stapleton

It is very much a twin-track approach. The local authorities also have the continuing opportunity to borrow to acquire land. Sometimes they will opt to do that because they want to acquire a larger site perhaps for mixed community or social use, or other uses, as well as housing.

We will review the land acquisition fund when the €125 million is looking like it has been earmarked, and, if it has been successful, we will look at extending it with colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. It is, therefore, very much giving the sector an opportunity to demonstrate that it is active in this space and willing to take up opportunities for site acquisition.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I thank Ms Stapleton.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Deputy O'Callaghan. I will move next to-----

Ms Áine Stapleton

I am sorry, Chair. Could I go back to the Deputy's earlier question about the Housing Agency's stance?

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, go ahead.

Ms Áine Stapleton

I understand there are acquisitions included in that figure and that may be the categorisation we need to look at in terms of explaining the difference. We will come back with more detail, however.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

They are not in the voids programme.

Ms Áine Stapleton

No, that was an example.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Is that ruled out now?

Ms Áine Stapleton

I would like to look at it more closely-----

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Sure.

Ms Áine Stapleton

-----but it looks like it is the acquisitions that are accounting for the difference.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. I thank Ms Stapleton. I call Senator Cummins.

Senator John Cummins

I will start with the vacants. In response to Senator Boyhan, Ms Timmons mentioned the vacant property refurbishment grant and the expansion of same. When will the revised criteria be available?

Ms Caroline Timmons

The intention is to have it ready at the start of May. We are working on that at the minute.

Senator John Cummins

It is to be in place for 1 May. Is the intention that the guidance will be available before that?

Ms Caroline Timmons

We are working very hard on that right now. I do not want to make absolute commitments in case I end up being a few days over but that is the current intention we are working on.

Senator John Cummins

In terms of the revised figures, Ms Timmons is not able to share them with us at the moment.

Ms Caroline Timmons

The revised figures-----

Senator John Cummins

The revised grant amounts of €30,000 and €50,000.

Ms Caroline Timmons

No. I have a process I need to follow with the Minister and the Government.

Senator John Cummins

I understand. The point I will make in that respect, which Ms Timmons might take it away, is that it would be very important that the revised grant amounts that are available are applied to existing projects that are already in the pipeline. The issue would be that if they are not and a project has not commenced, we will see people withdrawing from the approvals they already have and reapplying, thereby clogging up local authorities and vacant homes officers in order to get the higher amount. That does not make sense. If something has gone through the entire process and it has drawn down already, obviously it is what it is, but if projects have not commenced, it would be important that they are able to access the revised figures, assuming that they are higher, of course. I am making that assumption.

My question is related to that issue. Is there an indication that in the case of a property that is to be made available for rent, there would be some clause or clawback similar to the existing clawback that is in place for the owner-occupier piece? There is a ten-year clawback for owner-occupiers. Is it the intention that there would be some clawback on the rental side as well?

Ms Caroline Timmons

Ultimately, it would be for the Minister to decide that but I can certainly say that is something we are considering, yes.

Senator John Cummins

Okay. I will move from the vacants on to the cost-rental homes. We have touched on some of the viability issues. In terms of activating the build-to-rent scheme, there are a significant portion of permissions in place at the moment on which the market is not delivering and does not have any intention of delivering. I have said over many months that there is huge potential there to be able to activate units that were never intended to be in the cost-rental space. The issue as I see it, however, is that the cost of building, financing and maintaining those developments over a 30- or 40-year period equals market rent at the moment. In fact, it probably equals more than market rent in many cases. It does not equal market rent minus 25%. The only thing that will change the dial in that space is a subsidy. There has to be a subsidy that is available to make that rent a more affordable rent. I appreciate that there are probably state aid issues attached to that. One thing I would say with regard to state aid is that it does not come into play if everyone has access to the same subsidy. I know there has been resistance from the Department that cost rental would not be opened beyond the AHBs, the LDA and the local authorities so far because we were proving concept. To take what Ms Timmons said, however, there is no doubt that the concept has already been proven at this point. The legislation does permit and allow for low-return funds to be able to access the delivery of cost-rental units but it just has not been commenced yet. While the LDA will engage on some of those sites and the AHBs will engage on some more, and local authorities to a lesser extent, the ability of the private sector to be able to engage with their peers to be able to activate and deliver those in a quicker fashion is something that really has to be part of the process the Department is examining at the moment. If that subsidy to lower the market rent to at least 25% below market rent is available to all players, it overcomes the state aid issue that exists. I ask Ms Timmons to seriously take that on board.

The issue on viability for local authorities is that the subsidy through the affordable housing fund is simply not enough. Am I right in saying it has now been increased to €150,000, but that is only specific to high-density developments in city centres? Is that correct?

Ms Caroline Timmons

Yes, that is correct.

Senator John Cummins

Is there a case to be made that if local authorities, particularly in urban and city areas, have schemes on which they have gone out to tender and the tenders have come back much higher than anticipated, and the only way they can get those numbers to work is if the figure of what was €75,000 is increased to €100,000 or €125,000, the Department will actively look at that to make those cost-rental schemes work? That is something that is happening on the ground. Schemes that are being tendered are coming back higher and without that higher fund, they simply do not add up in terms of the Housing Agency model. Is that something that Ms Timmons can give a commitment around?

Ms Caroline Timmons

We are in communication with the local authorities all the time. We go out to meet them and we have housing summits at which the Minister talks to them. We consistently present to them that these are the schemes, but if they have something that they want to submit to the Department for us to help them to work on, we are more than happy to do that. The Housing Agency is very good on this.

Senator John Cummins

Okay.

Ms Caroline Timmons

Often, it may be a simple case of helping them to redo the modelling and looking at some of the factors involved, but the Department is very open to anything they wish to put forward.

Senator John Cummins

I am referring to a specific scheme in which I have seen the modelling and it simply does not work on the €75,000. It will probably work on the €100,000 and it will deliver 22 two-bed homes in Waterford city for rent, which is something that is just not in the rental space in Waterford city at the moment. I take it that Ms Timmons will take that observation away.

If I could, Chair, I will make one last point regarding the cost rental equity loan, CREL, piece that the AHBs access for the delivery of cost-rental units. It is being increased to 45% at a 1% interest rate. Is there any intention of moving in that space? It seems to me that notwithstanding what is happening in Dublin, there is a bit of inertia in that system at the moment where they are waiting for something from the Department. Am I right in saying that? Is there an intention to move in that space because I believe there are a number of schemes-----

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator's time is up.

Senator John Cummins

-----awaiting something from the Department. I would appreciate if Ms Timmons could clarify what that may be.

An Cathaoirleach

Ms Timmons might be brief, please.

Ms Caroline Timmons

Following moving the CREL up to 45%, the Minister asked us to look at any further changes that might be necessary.

There is a CREL working group in place. All of the AHBs were asked to make submissions to that group about whether there are any further changes that might be useful to bring forward. That will be concluding its work over the next while, and proposals will be made to the Minister in that regard.

The points Senator Cummins made are all under consideration. It is not necessarily holding things up. We are working very closely with the AHBs, which have made proposals about units they could bring forward. We are asking them to bring the proposals in right now and we are working with them on those.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I will continue the conversation about cost rental and CREL. I am not sure I agree with Ms Timmons that the concept is proven, in the sense that there is a concern, as she knows, because a lot of the cost rental that is being delivered at the moment is turnkey and has construction costs arising. Then, rents are rising. Some of the most recent cost rental developments, both in Delgany and in my constituency, have rents of €1,450 and €1,550 for two-bed and three-bed units. While that just about fits the criteria of the scheme at the top end of the income eligibility criteria, it does not necessarily at the bottom end. Is there a concern or consideration about how to bring that rent down, for example, by restructuring the finance over a longer period, as they do in other jurisdictions? As part of the review, has any consideration been given to raising the threshold? That would fix one problem but it would not necessarily fix the affordability problem for those people above the threshold for social housing, who would really struggle with cost rents as they are coming in now because they would be hitting 40% of net disposable income, for example?

Ms Caroline Timmons

I will not pre-empt what the recommendations of the CREL working group might be, but the points Deputy Ó Broin makes have definitely come up. We are looking at them. I accept that we have to look at whether the eligibility criteria need to be revised upwards, but we also need to look at making sure that people would not be excluded at the lower end of the scale, where they are above the social housing thresholds. It is a complex one to get right, but it is very much something that the working group is looking at currently.

Deputy Ó Broin is correct that the construction cost increases have made it quite difficult to move forward with cost rental, but we are very conscious of that and if there are solutions that can be brought to bear, we will do that.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Given that construction costs are what they are, has consideration been given to changing the overall financial structure? At one point, when Enniskerry Road was being developed as a pilot, the financing was for 25 years. That offered a rent of €1,600, so the financing was stretched out to 40 years. Is the review looking at the potential benefits of even longer term finance to bring rents down?

Ms Caroline Timmons

I do not sit on the working group, so I have not seen whether that is a particular factor that it is looking at. It sounds reasonable that the group would be looking at that but I cannot absolutely say it today.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

In terms of the cost rental we have to date, one of the things we are beginning to hear is that there is a cohort of people who are taking up cost rental who are quite close to the point of purchasing or saving for a deposit, and that is leading to a higher than expected exit rate from the existing cost-rental schemes that have been tenanted in the last year. Is that something the Department is aware of or looking at in terms of how it could impact on the viability of the schemes currently in place?

Ms Caroline Timmons

It has not come forward strongly. It has not been put to me as a point that it is something that is going to happen. We have not seen actual evidence of it that has been put to the Department to date. There is an ability under the regulations, whereby if anybody has applied in the lottery for a particular development another tenant can be taken out of the lottery. That is considered and provided for in the regulations. If those people can go on to buy, we are happy to support them in that respect. That is appropriate in all respects. If it does come forward as being a particular issue, we would be happy to deal with it.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Just so I am clear: I like the sound of the Housing Agency portal, is it the hope that the portal will also then have a central point where all of the cost rentals would also be advertised on it, and not just on the individual landlords' cost-rental sites? One of the challenges for people at the moment is that they have to chase the LDA site, the Tuath site and the Respond site. Having one central location would be really helpful.

Ms Caroline Timmons

This has previously been discussed with the high-level affordability group and with the Housing Agency. In the first iteration, it will be a communications website to make sure people know where the sites are and when they might be opening but the long-term ambition for the portal is to make sure there is one single point of contact. That will be a longer development piece for us because it is complicated to do across the delivery streams. We would certainly see it as the ambition going forward.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

One other solution to that, in particular in the larger local authorities that are carrying a lot of the cost rental, is for the local authorities to have a portal. South Dublin County Council had a portal at one stage but it has been closed. The council only advertises the small number of discounted market units that it is delivering. Even within a local authority area if there is a way of promoting that, it would be really helpful.

I have a real concern about what is happening with Project Tosaigh. If you go on the LDA's website, the idea was for larger schemes over 150 units not yet commenced or that had been stalled. Generally, the understanding was that it would be inner urban and it would be apartments. If we take, for example, Archers Wood in Delgany, that is not what that scheme was for. It is less than 150 units and it was not stalled. In fact, Cairn Homes had the units almost finished when the LDA entered into a forward purchasing agreement. Does Ms Timmons have any concerns that Project Tosaigh as an activation measure to deliver cost rental, in particular in large inner urban higher density schemes is not what it is delivering because none of the schemes that are currently listed as LDA cost rental meet the initial set of criteria? They are all sub-150 units and some of them are sub-100 units. There are some apartments, but they are low rise; they are generally houses and duplexes. They are properties that would have either gone onto the market or gone on to AHBs for cost rental or social rental.

Ms Caroline Timmons

In terms of the profile of what the LDA is bringing forward, I cannot say whether it meets the 150 unit threshold.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I am not in any way being adversarial. If we go onto the website, none of them meet the criterion of 150 units, in particular in Archers Wood, which has houses, duplexes and apartments, which is sub that number. What is more concerning about Archers Wood is that it was a Cairn Homes development. Cairn Homes does not need the LDA to activate. It was building out and ready to sell. It does seem that the LDA is struggling currently to get those higher density inner urban schemes because of the cost, which is prohibitive. It is now doing what many of us feared, it is entering into direct competition with local authorities, approved housing bodies, first-time buyers and buying up units that would have gone to the market anyway, in order for it to be able to show some cost rental. I am concerned that it is a trend that develops, which is very different from what we were told the scheme would be.

Ms Caroline Timmons

I do not think that is what is intended at all. I know that some of the parcels-----

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

But it is what is happening.

Ms Caroline Timmons

Yes, I take Deputy Ó Broin's point that it is his view of what is happening but I do not think that is what is intended at all. I think some of the parcels that came forward to the LDA under the first expressions of interest, EOI, may have resulted in developments that were under the 150 mark coming forward. It is important that it has brought forward cost rental in that respect. Going forward, we want the LDA to target higher numbers of delivery. Under the second EOI we were specific about needing to co-operate with the local authorities and not to have competition going on in the sector. We are acutely aware of that. Going forward, the high level of affordable delivery co-ordination across AHBs, the LDA and the local authorities has been very important to us. I understand Deputy Ó Broin's point that he feels the LDA is not getting houses out of the ground and the projects that we wanted but, in fact, we can see units coming forward in the pipeline it has for the year that would not have commenced otherwise. I am happy that it is trying to fulfil that objective at this point.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I thank Ms Timmons, Mr. Ó Coighligh and Ms Stapleton. When witnesses come before us, we often struggle to find their names on the page in front of us when we are welcoming them. Unfortunately, we know the names all of those before us inside out and they know ours. I thank them for being with us today.

I will continue with the issues raised by Deputy Ó Broin. The first 18 months of this committee's term was really about bringing forward a major policy shift in terms of legislation. I refer to the availability of an affordable purchase scheme and a cost-rental scheme, the publication of Housing for All and the various supply measures that are within that. We are moving now towards a phase where, while there might be disagreement in the committee over the policy measures, we have moved away from establishing policy and we are in the phase of implementing Housing for All. That is what this meeting is about. Our report will focus on some of the challenges of implementing Housing for All, where it is going well and where it is going badly.

Different local authorities seem to take an ad hoc approach to the policy measures they are adopting. Some local authorities felt that cost rental, for example, was not for them. That is not acceptable. Each local authority must implement each phase and each element of Housing for All. Some had very ambitious senior citizen housing programmes while others had none. Some had implemented their affordable purchase scheme while others still have no affordable purchase scheme agreed. We still have a long way to go to ensure the translation of policy into practice at a local authority level. It is clear from the approved housing bodies that some of them are still a bit fearful of CREL, gearing, and all of the issues. To be honest, I do not see huge ambition within the approved housing body sector for the cost-rental model.

More needs to be done to ensure that translation.

Because it refers to the implementation of Housing for All, I thought I would concentrate on some of the sites in my own area. I am forewarning the officials so it does not surprise them. I want to talk through some of the challenges on the ground. More than 20 public housing sites on public land are being developed in my constituency. It is frustrating to drive around the constituency because the physical evidence of that cannot be seen yet but there are 20 sites public housing sites where we will put public housing in my constituency and none of that was possible before the current Government. That is worth noting. Let us take site 12 in Ballymun, for example. It is an affordable purchase site. A pre-Part 8 planning meeting was held with councillors in December 2021 but we do not know where things are now. I understand there are some issues of density. The officials might come back to me in writing on that or give me an update. Similarly, site 14 is an affordable purchase site. There is great potential to deliver a large number of affordable purchase units on that site but we are hearing that will not happen until 2025 and that seems like a long way off. The Shangan Road PPP bundle passed Part 8 in September 2022 so it has been through planning but we have a quarter 4 2025 delivery date. Again, it seems a very long time.

In Finglas, there are issues with the Kildonan lands where the affordable purchase we can build maybe slightly more expensive than adjoining homes at market value but they are very different offerings. We need to have a more realistic approach to affordable purchase housing because the more affordable purchase housing we provide, the more the overall supply will become cheaper. There is no activity on the Church of the Annunciation site that the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, and myself launched as part of that broader PPP bundle. It is a social housing site, mostly for older people. It is not due until quarter 3 2026. It has no design yet and has not been through Part 8. I have a real issue with the Berryfield site. It has approved planning permission from Novas for six three-bedroom houses in July 2020. I understand the Department did not approve the scheme because it felt more one-bedroom units were needed even though the reason for the scheme was to tackle antisocial behaviour. Novas resubmitted an application in April 2022 and in June 2022 and, therefore, two years after a planning permission had been approved for a site, DCC rejected the application. Two years later, on a site that was to be developed to stop antisocial behaviour, nothing has been built. There are other sites on Collins Avenue and Thatch Road. Again, I know the plans for them but they are either pre-Part 8 or they are not at Part 8. I have discussed all these with Dublin City Council. It tells me it takes time to build housing and I accept that but there still seems to be a lack of urgency at some part of the spectrum. The Novas site in Berryfield is an example of that but there are threads of that on the other sites too. I have thrown a lot at the officials. If they want to give me site-specific answers, they can come back to me but for now they might talk to me about that broader principle. Are we dealing with this as a real emergency at the implementation level with local authorities? Is the Department unnecessarily delaying those or is the delay at the local authority level?

Ms Caroline Timmons

That is a mix of myself and Ms Stapleton on the mixed tenure sites.

Ms Áine Stapleton

We can go through some of the sites very briefly. One thing to say by way of context is the legislative changes to the Part 8 planning process will hopefully allow for the planning process to proceed more speedily for some of these sites that are yet to go through planning. That should certainly help get them on site at an earlier point.

The first two the Deputy mentioned are on the affordable side - site 14 in Balbutcher and site 12 in Sillogue. I might let Ms Timmons come to those. On the PPP bundle, the site on Shangan Road is being supported by the National Development Finance Agency, NDFA. We are quite well advanced on the PPP bundle. That site will deliver 93 units, of which 73 will be for senior citizens. It will be a very good development. It will also deliver a new link road and landscaped open space. It is going to have a community facility as part of that development as well. I understand there have been significant consultations with local residents on the whole proposal. Part 8 was granted by Dublin City Council, as the Deputy knows, and planning approval has been secured for all the elements of the PPP bundle 3. It is helpful in terms of the tender notice having been issued. The programme is at the pre-qualification stage of procurement.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

There is three years of a construction period for that after the Part 8 was passed.

Ms Áine Stapleton

Yes. There is quite a detailed procurement process around the PPP bundles. There is the pre-qualification stage, followed by a further stage of the process. The critical thing for the PPP bundle 3 is that we get a sufficient level of interest from the construction sector at the pre-qualification stage. We will know that very soon. That will allow the process to complete. We have made it clear with the local authority and the NDFA that we would like the PPP bundle 3 to proceed as quickly as possible.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I know we are under time pressure and perhaps, when my next slot comes around in 20 minutes, we can answer some of those. That Novas site is an example of something not functioning. There was to be six three-bedroom houses to try to stop antisocial behaviour and two years later, following two planning applications, nothing has been built.

Ms Áine Stapleton

My understanding is there are some issues with the topography of the site. I think the Deputy is correct. It may need to go to redesign.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

But that will be the third planning application even though there is a live planning application right there, right now, for six three-bedroom homes. Can it just not be approved and built?

Ms Áine Stapleton

We have a number of engagements with DCC on implementation across some of the projects that are at various stages of the approval process. We will certainly prioritise this one.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy McAuliffe can come back in on the third round, or there is another Fianna Fáil slot.

Deputy Francis Noel Duffy

I thank the Department for its work delivering Housing for All considering the issues raised including Covid, the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the rise in interest rates. I have three reasonably short questions. Last year the Department surpassed the Housing for All delivery ambition. Are there projections for this year?

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

Is this the general market of the almost 3,000 delivery last year?

Deputy Francis Noel Duffy

Yes.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

I think we are confident that will happen. There are different indications. Different organisations have given projections somewhat lower than that. There are some contradictory figures in terms of commencement slowdown and planning permissions slowdown. On the other hand, there was an interesting report this morning that BNP Paribas is reporting construction companies are hiring more workers and order books are filling up, which would suggest that actually they will deliver. There is a bank of permissions there that are utilisable. Although there was a slowdown in commencements and permissions, there was actually an existing bank of permissions that can be activated so we would be confident that we would match the figures this year.

Deputy Francis Noel Duffy

From last year. That is great. Second, how many cost-rental units were delivered in 2022? What are the projections for this year?

Ms Caroline Timmons

On the cost-rental side, we had 684 cost-rental units delivered in 2022. That is up from 65 the previous year. As I mentioned earlier in reply to one of the Deputies who asked the same question, I do not have full projections for this year yet. We build the pipeline over the year, typically, on the affordable side. They come in across the year. It is likely to be some time yet before I can give an accurate projection. Across delivery streams from AHBs, local authorities and the LDA, we get cost rental from each. We will see what comes in over the next while. The LDA is projecting more than 800 at this point. The AHBs are working on submitting fresh applications as well.

Deputy Francis Noel Duffy

My last question is on something that was covered earlier.

The cost-rental in situ threshold of €53,000 is being reviewed. Does the Department have a timeline on that?

Ms Caroline Timmons

Is the Deputy referring to the new scheme? The tenant in situ scheme threshold is set at €53,000, which matches the current cost-rental legislation because the ambition is to transition these into the normal cost-rental situation over time as we change the legislation. The CREL scheme working group is looking at the income thresholds at the moment as part of the overall review of all of the elements of cost rental to ensure they work. As we said in reply to a previous member, this is to ensure that if income eligibility were potentially to be revised upwards, we would not disadvantage someone lower down the eligibility stream. That may be a complex piece to put forward but the working group is working on bringing proposals in that respect.

Deputy Francis Noel Duffy

When will it make draft or final proposals?

Ms Caroline Timmons

I do not know on exactly what date the CREL working group will finish its work but I understand it will be in the next few months.

An Cathaoirleach

The last two speaking lots are for Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. Are Deputy McAuliffe and Senator Fitzpatrick sharing time?

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I was not going to ask questions. I wanted to allow Ms Timmons-----

An Cathaoirleach

If there was a site in the Deputy's constituency he did not cover, he may get to raise it this time.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I did not cover about 15 sites. I apologise to Ms Stapleton who is working her way through the list.

Ms Áine Stapleton

If the Deputy likes, I can allow Ms Timmons to talk about the affordable purchase sites and we can send him a written update on the other sites. I can also run through them quickly if he prefers. As we skipped the affordable sites, we might go back to those.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I imagine there is nobody more frustrated with delivery than the witnesses. I accept that. As a Deputy who came to this House to vote for things to change in housing, it is frustrating, having put in place the policy and budgeting, to see that delivery is not proceeding as quickly as it could. Ms Timmons may tell me differently but it seems that on some of the affordable and social sites the Department is still sticking its oar in a bit too much. I may be wrong but that is what the local authorities are reporting back to us.

Ms Caroline Timmons

The Deputy is correct to characterise us as the people who wish to see delivery quickest. We are definitely in that space. If there was something we could do to move things quicker, we are doing it already. In relation to the Department sticking its oar in, I do not think that is happening on the affordable side and I would say it is happening either on the social side. Ms Stapleton can speak to the social side but I would not characterise it in that way at all. If anything, we are trying to make sure Dublin City Council has all of the options to bring everything forward. We are giving it additional resources and working very closely with it. It is a very good relationship that has developed over the past while, on the affordable side in particular and it is the same for social. I would say that is working well.

On the sites the Deputy is referring to, all of us, including Dublin City Council, want to move those along as quickly as possible. On Silogue, we secured serviced sites fund, SSF, approval for 101 units on that site some time ago and it is intended to bringing that forward quite quickly. We understand Dublin City Council is going to engage with the elected members on the design in the coming weeks and intends to bring forward a new application under the affordable housing fund for a revised subsidy for the affordable units.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Is that where the density bit comes in? Was the density not right?

Ms Caroline Timmons

The SSF was for €50,000 whereas the AHF can go quite high, up ti €150,000, depending on what is involved. The council will get more funds in that respect. I am sure it will do that in the next while and it is looking to have substantial completion of the site by 2026. I can see that ambition coming forward now. I certainly see a lot more momentum on those sites. Similarly, Balbutcher is an SSF-approved site. If Dublin City Council needs to come back in with a fresh AHF application, has indicated it will do so. It has said it intends to engage with members on design in the coming weeks and wants to move that on very quickly to ensure the construction commences before the end of next year. We can see things happening; it is just-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Is Kildonan Road in the same position?

Ms Caroline Timmons

No, I do not have the same information on Kildonan Road. We do not have any approval on the affordable side on Kildonan Road and we have not had an application on it, as far as I am aware. I do not think I have ever one. I can imagine that if Dublin City Council comes forward with that, we will be happy to progress it as quickly as possible.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

The problem there is that the construction cost for affordable purchase will result in a home more expensive than the market value home. That is obviously a challenge.

Ms Caroline Timmons

Yes, that can be a challenge. We are happy to work with the council on that if that is something it wants to progress.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Regarding construction inflation, Mr. Ó Coigligh talked a lot about costs earlier. What is the Department working as a percentage for construction inflation over the past three years, cumulatively?

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

I do not have those figures with me. They may be here somewhere but I do not have them off the top of my head.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

I ask Mr. Ó Coigligh to come back to us on that as that information would be useful. The construction inflationary effect on the price of housing is obviously very pertinent to anybody wanting to secure an affordable home.

The other issue Mr. Ó Coigligh mentioned was the differentiation between the cost of the building standards we are delivering in Ireland versus those in other European countries, and the historical housing that is in place. When we talk about rents increasing, we are talking about a very different product or home if it is a property or rental home that was built ten years ago or 20 year ago - we all know how much it will cost to remedy defects in those homes - versus what is being built today to a modern standard.

Continuing the theme of my colleague from a Dublin city perspective and getting back to affordable delivery in the city, will Ms Timmons tell us how the Dublin housing delivery group is working? What actions is it taking? Last year, Dublin City Council was unable to deliver any affordable homes in the city and the Land Development Agency and AHBs did not delivery any either. What is the Dublin delivery group doing to ensure there are affordable homes, be they cost-rental or affordable purchase homes, delivered this year and in every other year? Considering that the greatest need, greatest cost and greatest economic, environmental and social pressure for affordable housing in the country are in Dublin city, what is the group doing to accelerate delivery?

Ms Caroline Timmons

Both Ms Stapleton and I sit on the Dublin housing delivery group which meets monthly. It also has regular engagements with the Minister. Last year, the group was instrumental in bringing forward some reports to both the Minister and Housing for All oversight groups on changes that needed to be made, particularly on the affordable front, to enable housing to be brought forward, particularly apartments. At that point, a full subsidy of €100,000 was our limit. The group was influential in having that increased to €150,000 and with regard to the changes to the CREL scheme as well. It is certainly working on that.

More recently, the group has been looking very closely at uncommenced planning permissions and has an ongoing project monitoring those sites to let us see where they are and what measures may need to be activated in that respect. We are working very closely on the mixed tenure sites with the group as well and on AHB cost-rental housing coming forward. In the past while, the group has been working with AHBs to see what cost-rental they want to bring forward under CREL in a particular area and what can be done to assist them with that. The group is very much working with the Department on all of those measures. It is a very productive group.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

That is great to hear. It is very positive. My concern is that my sense from the AHBs is that it is much easier for them to deliver in the commuter belt, in Dublin county and the surrounding counties, than in the city. I do not see the AHBs acting on affordable cost-rental housing in the city. I am encouraged that O'Devaney Gardens is finally going ahead after, mother of God, over a decade of back and forth. That will probably be the first affordable cost-rental housing we will get in the city. When I look at Dublin City Council's work programme and the significant number of social housing developments - I am thinking of places like St. Finbar's Court, for example, which was Part 8 approved in 2020 and is now going to stage 3 - I wonder why they are taking so long. Another is St. Mary's Place on Dorset Street. I think there are 4,000 social housing units in regeneration projects. If the Dublin housing delivery group was looking not just at affordable housing but at accelerating delivery of social housing, that would relieve some pressure in the private rental area in the city. This would then lead to more private rental accommodation becoming available. Are there reports from the Dublin housing delivery group and, if so, could have a look at them to get a sense of the extent of the actions being undertaken to accelerate the delivery of housing in the city?

Ms Caroline Timmons

There are two aspects to the Senator's questions, namely, the social and the affordable. I will address the affordable side of it. With the Dublin housing delivery group, we see those mixed-tenure sites coming forward.

The Senator mentioned O'Devaney Gardens, and there are other examples at Oscar Traynor Road, Emmet Road and Church Fields, which is an important development that is coming forward. We are happy to see that. There is no particular recent report to which I can refer the Senator. We can put what she has said to the chair, Ms AnnMarie Farrelly, the chief executive of Fingal County Council. We can send a note to her to let her know that the Senator was asking what actions the group is taking. We will take that back to her, if that is okay.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

That would be excellent. I apologise for running out the door but there is a vote in the Seanad. Go raibh míle maith agat.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I want to ask about the four-stage approval process. As our guests will be aware, many people in AHBs and local authorities, and people who work in the construction sector more broadly, are very frustrated by, and critical of, that process. They consider it to be bureaucratic and think it frustrates delivery. Some people working in the construction sector have said to me that it leads to some of the AHBs only going down the route of acquisitions and purchases because they find the whole process of trying to get land and go through the approval process too difficult. Will our guests give us their insight as to why it is necessary? Is the idea that it should be reviewed legitimate? Is there merit in that? Would our guests be strongly opposed to that? Perhaps they could give us their views on this issue. It comes up constantly from a range of sources. We would benefit from hearing the views and insights of our guests in that regard.

Ms Áine Stapleton

I will certainly reply to that. Before I do, I will come back to 2008. The build figure in that year was 6,801. It was some 600 units lower than 2022.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

The Housing Agency figures do not match up with the Department figures.

Ms Áine Stapleton

The categorisation is different.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I thank Ms Stapleton.

Ms Áine Stapleton

The four-stage approval process is a pre-construction process. Included in it are stages that the local authorities or AHBs must undertake and the approval by the Department. It involves the design stage by the local authorities and AHBs and the planning and procurement stages. All of that is encompassed within the process. It was reviewed in 2021 with a view to making a number of changes that might be helpful for the sector. For example, to de-risk the sites coming forward, we have said that site investigation before an approach is made to the Department will be funded by us. That applies to the very preliminary stages when local authorities or AHBs identify challenges with the site. We have also encouraged them to work in parallel. As they are waiting to get through the Part 8 planning process, they can proceed in parallel to progress more advanced design briefs. Should they run into a difficulty with the progress of the project, we will cover the costs up to that point. We are encouraging a process whereby they do a number of these pre-construction initiatives in parallel.

We have also tried to bring standardisation to the design. The Department last year issued a design manual for quality housing, with a number of layouts and design standards. We are saying to the local authorities and AHBs that using those design standards and staying within the technical specifications the Department has set down will fast-track the approval process. For example, there is an option to skip stage 3 of the approval process if they are fully compliant with the design manual and within certain cost parameters. We have made a number of changes to make the departmental end of the approval process as streamlined as possible. Critically, we want to bring more standardisation and consistency to the design stage. It is sometimes the toing and froing on schemes that might be overspecified which leads to some of the difficulties and delays. We are conscious that we want to make this as easy as possible and support the sector as much as possible. At the moment, the Department is engaging in a series of regional workshops with the local authorities to walk through the design manual, technical specifications and unit cost ceilings so there is a good understanding of the parameters within which we are working. If we are compliant with that, it should ease the timelines for moving through the process.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I thank Ms Stapleton for that helpful answer. In terms of schemes that are overspecified, is there a pattern that suggests some local authorities are doing that consistently in the Department's view or does it happen haphazardly or randomly?

Ms Áine Stapleton

I do not have evidence of a pattern. We are saying that in giving a design brief to an outside architect company, it is helpful for the local authority to provide the design manual for quality housing and to tell the architects the parameters within which they are working. That de-risks the design. It keeps things on track with what we would expect to see in terms of design and cost when it comes to the Department for approval.

Senator John Cummins

I will pick up where Deputy Cian O'Callaghan has left off. The single-stage process is not being used because all the risk is on the local authorities. If they say a project is going to deliver, for example, 50 units and put in a cost for those 50 units that turns out to be less than the actual cost, they are on the hook for the difference between their initial estimate and the final cost at tender. Is that the case at the moment?

Ms Áine Stapleton

Just over 100 projects have gone through the single-stage process. We very much encourage local authorities to use it. The Senator is correct that the perception of local authorities is that they are taking on that risk.

Senator John Cummins

Is that the case?

Ms Áine Stapleton

In our engagements with local authorities, we have assured them that where there have been cost increases for justifiable reasons, the Department would be open to reviewing them with the local authorities. We have tried to be as reassuring as possible in terms of the process. We want to assure local authorities that they will not be out of pocket while going down this road.

Senator John Cummins

The key part of what Ms Stapleton said was that review is possible if the costs are justifiable. Financial officers within local authorities do not know what is going to come out. When they receive envelopes containing four tenders for a project, if they are lucky, they do not know what is inside those envelopes. They do not know if the Department is going to call a particular cost unjustifiable. That is where the issue lies.

Ms Áine Stapleton

We would be reluctant not to accept the outcome of a market process if that is the market price.

Senator John Cummins

That was the follow-on point I was going to make. The Department does accept the outcome of the market process when a project has gone through the four-stage approval process. Why would the Department not accept the market process at completion of the single-stage approval process?

Ms Áine Stapleton

Generally speaking, we would accept it.

Senator John Cummins

Would I be right in saying that is not set down clearly in a circular to local authorities?

Ms Áine Stapleton

We have been giving local authorities reassurance in that regard.

Senator John Cummins

Would I be right in saying it is not set down in a circular?

Ms Áine Stapleton

It is linked to the conversation I just had with Deputy Cian O'Callaghan. Where local authorities have used the design manual and adhered to the technical specifications, they should have no risk at all in using the single-stage process.

Senator John Cummins

It is not set down for them in a circular.

Ms Áine Stapleton

We can certainly move to do that with the sector if it will be more reassuring in terms of using the single-stage process.

Senator John Cummins

Ms Stapleton and I both know that unless something is set down in a circular to local authorities - something that directors of services, chief executives or finance officers can put their hands on, which states the Department is underwriting a project on the basis that it has gone through a market process and gone out in an open and transparent manner - it is not there. All the assurances in the world are not going to change that.

Ms Áine Stapleton

If that is the feedback the Senator is getting from the sector-----

Senator John Cummins

It is.

Ms Áine Stapleton

-----we will be happy to follow up.

Senator John Cummins

That is absolutely the feedback I have been getting. I am aware of all the changes we have made to the four-stage approval process and welcome all of them. There is no question but that the single-stage approval process has the ability to get quicker delivery on the ground but there cannot be risk on the local authorities because the second there is, they will not take it.

Ms Áine Stapleton

We are certainly happy to take that feedback and to provide something in writing to the local authority.

Senator John Cummins

Perfect. That would be exceptionally useful. If anything were to come out of today's session, if that were to come out of it it would be a really welcome step.

Leasing was one my lines of questioning to all the local authorities, not only in the context of the repair-and-leasing scheme but also in the context of general leasing. I believe it was a mistake to withdraw leasing as a method of delivery. I am on record as having said that. I disagree with the decision. Nobody can justifiably tell me that it is not better to have a family in a long-term, secure rental property for 25 years than it is to have them in a hotel room. All the bodies that came before us concurred with that view. We have opened up an element of leasing - an additional 1,000 units, I think - through the leasing process. Is any consideration being given to opening that up further? Many of the local authorities had developed a stream of units for delivery through the leasing process. Given the fact that we have ramped up direct build, there is now a strong case to be made, I believe, for supplementing that with a larger quantum of leasing units, not taking out the direct builds, the Part V housing or the acquisitions, which are still delivery methods. We will continue to ramp up those methods, but is consideration being given to expand that envelope of leasing properties further?

Ms Áine Stapleton

The first thing I have to say is that the phasing out of long-term leasing is current Government policy.

Senator John Cummins

Yes. I do not agree with it.

Ms Áine Stapleton

The Senator is quite right that there was an exceptional measure agreed by the Government, a targeted leasing initiative, which is linked to the ending of the eviction ban and a focus on providing very quickly the types of units that would be suitable for people exiting homelessness. We hope to have in the order of 1,000 units over 2023 and 2024 under that initiative, but that is currently the extent of the additionality in respect of long-term leasing, other than those targets which are in Housing for All, that is, 1,200 this year.

Senator John Cummins

Has the 2024 figure been indicated to the local authority sector or-----

Ms Áine Stapleton

We are working through that approvals process. We expect about 60% of delivery to come through in 2023, with the balance to come through in 2024.

Senator John Cummins

Is it 1,000 for 2023 and 2024-----

Ms Áine Stapleton

Yes.

Senator John Cummins

-----or 1,000 for each of 2023-----

Ms Áine Stapleton

The targeted leasing initiative is 1,000 in total. In addition, under the phasing out of long-term leasing, we have a target of 1,200 this year.

Senator John Cummins

So no consideration is being given to a further uplift in that figure of 1,000 at the moment.

Ms Áine Stapleton

No. The current Government policy is to phase out long-term leasing.

Senator John Cummins

I ask, particularly in respect of that targeted element, that consideration is given to that because it is a quicker method of delivering units which, specifically, are targeting people who are homeless. The ability to deliver that one-bed and two-bed accommodation in urban locations is hugely valuable. That is what has been done in my local authority area with the repair-and-leasing scheme in particular.

On that, I will make one last point. Is the figure of 60,000 being revised upwards? This was raised by local authorities in Cork, Dublin - Chair, you might help me here. I am trying to remember the local authorities that raised the actual figure as an issue in delivering more units. Limerick, I think, also raised this.

Ms Áine Stapleton

We had looked at that issue around the 60,000 for the repair-and-leasing scheme, but at the moment there is no proposal. What we propose to do with the repair-and-leasing scheme is to monitor very closely the take-up of the scheme. Then, if we feel there is a need, we will review that with colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. At the moment, however, we are looking to see how the most recent changes to the scheme are taken up and what kind of opportunity there is to get extra delivery through that mechanism.

Senator John Cummins

I can come back in, Chair, when Deputy Gould is finished.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I understand there is a huge amount of work going on in the Department, and the work it is doing has probably never been so important. I have a couple of questions that I hope the witnesses will be able to talk me through.

First, in 2022 the Department funded only 85 voids in Cork city and 2,307 nationally. The latest National Oversight and Audit Commission, NOAC, report shows that it took Cork City Council 75 weeks to return voids in 2021. How can we stand over a policy or practice that funds the return of only 85 voids when there are over 500?

Ms Caroline Timmons

We just about met our target last year under the voids programme, which I think was 2,400. We were just under that target. We have a similar target for this year. It is a matter for the council to bring forward the voids unit to us and to suggest what they could do. At any point during the year if they feel they can do more, we are open to that. If they want to do more than that this year, we are open to that. We do not consider that that is an issue in respect of the numbers. As for the length of time it takes to return the units, we do encourage the councils to do the minimum works applicable to get the units back into use. It is really important to us that that message gets across because of the level of homelessness at the moment. In particular, we need to see those social units being brought back into use as quickly as possible. That has been very clearly communicated by the Minister and the Department to local authorities, so if there has been a lag in the time it has taken to bring units back into use over previous years, we expect that local authorities are working on that as we speak.

Deputy Thomas Gould

To return to the first point about the 85 voids, it is very easy to calculate how many voids come back or how many houses are returned to local authorities every year. In Cork I think the figure is about 20 a month. We are talking about the bones of 250 units a year. If Cork City Council knows that and the Department knows that, because it gets monthly reports from the chief executives, why is the Department not funding the 250 houses that we know come back every year?

The second point to that question is as follows. I never could understand why local authorities need to come to the Department to get permission to do voids. Would it not be a much more streamlined service if local authorities were to renovate voids as soon as they became available and then send up the expenditure or the cost to be reimbursed? At the moment, with local authorities, it is like a tennis match. They bat it up to the Department; it bats it back. The witnesses are busy people; the local authority staff are busy people. Can we not just let the local authorities get on with the work? There should be a maximum time a void should be left vacant. Could the Department see a change of policy whereby local authorities would be given that kind of responsibility to do that work?

Ms Caroline Timmons

Under section 58 of the Housing Act 1966, it is the responsibility of the local authority to manage and to maintain its housing stock. It is supposed to use the rents that come into it under the rents system to manage and to maintain its stock. In fact, therefore, the voids programme is additional to what the local authorities should be doing. We have introduced a policy change to encourage them to move to a planned maintenance programme, and that is in conjunction with the County and City Management Association, CCMA. We have worked through that policy and have set aside funding, so if a local authority is happy to bring forward its surveys of its housing, we will provide funding to do so. Then it can engage in a planned maintenance programme throughout a number of years. That reduces the time for voids to be left in place. Voids are a temporary measure that should not be a long-term goal of the local authority to fund in that sense.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Realistically, and with all due respect, I became a councillor in 2009, and in the 14 years I have been a councillor and a Deputy, Cork City Council has carried out no preventative maintenance. The number one issue is, it said, that it had no funding stream from central Government. While what Ms Timmons says, therefore, might sound very credible; on the ground that is not what is happening. From what I can see, and from speaking to other local authorities that have come in here to present to us, a lot of Cork City Council stock is 70, 80, 90 or 100 years old. To expect the local authority to carry on planned housing maintenance every five or seven years is not credible unless there is a funding stream, and currently there is not a funding stream. Cork City Council has 10,500 houses. I think that is a tenth of the estates. Where will it get the resources? It does not have the resources.

I appreciate what the witnesses are saying but local authorities need to be given the power to carry out the work to bring these voids back and get families into them quickly. I thank the witnesses for their remarks. I would love to discuss that whole section more, but I am conscious of time.

A total of 6,790 new housing assistance payment, HAP, and rental accommodation scheme, RAS, tenancies brought forward by local authorities. I do not consider HAP or RAS to be social housing. It is a huge figure if you look at it compared with houses that were built. HAP and RAS properties are properties that already exist; they are not new. If HAP tenants go into them, someone has lost out or that person has gone out of HAP. My point is they are not new properties. I do not see HAP or RAS as a way to solve the housing crisis. I disagree with my colleague who spoke earlier about leasing. Twenty-five-year leasing is not social housing in my opinion. I know of people in Cork who are in their accommodation for 20 years. I come from social housing. You could do up the house and families were able to invest in the properties because they knew they would be in them for as long as they wanted. That does not happen in RAS, HAP or leasing. That figure I quoted is really high. Have the witnesses any comment to make on HAP and RAS?

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

On the place of HAP and RAS, it is a legitimate question in terms of overall housing policy about where we put our resources. We are trying to deliver on all fronts, including social housing, the market and cost rental. It has grown because of gaps elsewhere in the system. It is a legitimate question which we will be asking, for example, in relation to the rental review. Where does a system like HAP sit within the overall housing market? It was put in place to fill a gap. My colleagues may wish to comment.

Ms Áine Stapleton

Of the social housing allocations last year, approximately 33% were transfers from HAP properties. We are looking at a suite of social housing solutions. As we ramp up the building of new social homes, HAP and RAS provide an opportunity for those most vulnerable and in need of housing support to have it. It is useful to look at it as part of an overall suite of measures to deliver social housing solutions. The transfer option allows those in a HAP or RAS property, who wish to transfer to permanent social housing, to move to the transfer list. That seems to be working quite effectively and it then frees up private rental properties as those HAP tenants move into new-build social homes.

Ms Caroline Timmons

It is a fairly essential piece of the toolkit for dealing with homelessness, which we must not forget. The availability of HAP is a prevention and exit measure in that sense. At the moment, it is a very necessary piece of the housing policy.

Deputy Thomas Gould

There is no security of tenure in HAP. I spoke to a lady last Friday who became homeless last Saturday because there is no security of tenure in HAP if a landlord provides the correct documentation for a person to leave. It may be a way to get people out of homelessness, but that is a double-edged sword because some people become homeless on the back of notices to quit from HAP tenancies.

An Cathaoirleach

I wish to ask about vacancies and dereliction, because they are areas in which we can address stock that is already available, serviced and town-centred. I spoke about sustainability and the climate actions we need to attach to our housing. Is there a unit within the Department now that concentrates on dereliction and vacancy? There are a huge range of schemes, policies and funding in this area. I mentioned that the planning Bill seeks to streamline and make the compulsory purchase order, CPO, process simpler for when we need to go down that route. We spoke about Croí Cónaithe and there is the repair and lease scheme, which Senator Cummins often speaks about, as well as build and repair and living cities. There are a range of areas in which we can regenerate and concentrate on buildings that are already there. Is there a section focusing on that at the moment?

Ms Caroline Timmons

Yes. Housing for All firmly put vacancy at the forefront of housing policy as a core part of it and bringing forward actions in that regard. The vacant homes action plan was launched in January, bringing together under one roof all of the different actions that address vacancy. Prior to that, we had put in place a vacant homes unit in the Department. That unit works closely with the vacant homes offices that now exist in 30 of the 31 local authorities - Donegal County Council is bringing the recruitment process through to finalise its own office - continuing the work that needs to be done. The vacant homes unit also works closely with the town centre first policy and the new structures built under that policy. Town regeneration officers have been put in place, who work with the vacant homes officers, who also work with the people dealing with derelict sites. There is a core group of people in local authorities connecting in with the Department and the housing delivery co-ordination office, HDCO, which is in charge of the town centre first policy. All of those parties work together, which is proving quite successful in giving energy and life to the policies in place.

We launched the CPO activation programme last week, which is part of a measure we outlined in the action plan, bringing forward a suite of documentation to help local authorities move vacant properties off their derelict homes register and into activation. That may be done under the schemes we already spoke about, such as buy and renew and repair and lease or by private activation. If that activation does not occur, it can be taken through the CPO process to move it on and use it for social or private housing, whichever is appropriate in that particular instance. That type of activation programme will now track from here on in how the local authorities are active and give us data on how many, what is coming back into use and how. Being able to see that will inform our policy interventions in the future and what else we may need to do in that space. It is fair to say it is one of the most active spaces which has really come on since Housing for All was put in place.

An Cathaoirleach

We, as a committee, compiled a significant report on urban regeneration about a year ago with approximately 39 recommendations. We are interested in pursuing that further with the Department. If we issue another invite to the Department to come and discuss dereliction and vacancy, given that the three witnesses have given the committee ample time, I am conscious that I do not want to drag them away from the work again. It is something we wish to pursue so we will probably extend an invite to whoever is responsible to update us on that matter.

I heard about another scheme recently, which I knew nothing about. It was all new to me. It is called the ready to build scheme. Does it still exist? Are figures available for it? Will the witnesses talk a little about it and how it operates at the moment?

Ms Caroline Timmons

Ready to build was launched last year, following on from the launch of the vacant property refurbishment grant. It allows local authorities to bring forward sites, potentially on the outskirts of an appropriate town or village, which they want to sell at a lower cost to purchasers who want to build houses themselves. The idea is that there would be rejuvenation and regeneration of towns and villages. The local authority may use sites from its own stock or could also purchase sites. A subsidy is available for the local authority to do that. We went to local authorities with the scheme last year and asked them to bring forward sites under the programme. They have now submitted a number of sites. We will publish figures from here on about the number of sites. They will advertise those sites to make them available for purchase.

An Cathaoirleach

That was only issued last year.

Ms Caroline Timmons

It was issued last year. I think we launched the scheme in September last year and the local authorities have been working on amassing the sites to make them available for sale.

An Cathaoirleach

There are a significant number of schemes. Deputy McAuliffe stated that, for the first 18 months, the committee dealt with the legislative process, such as the Affordable Housing Act 2021, the Land Development Agency Act 2021 and a lot of other legislation.

We are starting to see these schemes and funding produce. Annual reporting of all that will be helpful to the committee.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

I might make a comment on that overall. With the introduction of so many schemes, we have put great pressure on the local authority system to deliver. The system is under strain in terms of personnel and skills, and faces significant competition for planning skills and so on. What we are asking it to do is problematic. Notwithstanding the provision of financial resources, everybody is struggling in terms of the labour market.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes. I hear criticism regarding the lack of uptake of the affordable purchase scheme, but we only introduced the legislation in the summer of 2021. It will take time for local authorities to get up to speed. I have seen the units delivered in Wicklow, where there is a fine development.

In the Affordable Housing Act, we introduced community-led housing. This is a small area but it has potential. We talked about the thousands of figures in cost rental, but we are probably talking about only hundreds in this case, although it is early and new to Ireland and might be a bit more prevalent in the UK and elsewhere in Europe. Has anything been done within the Department with respect to community-led housing now that we have made an allowance for it in the Affordable Housing Act?

Ms Caroline Timmons

A number of active organisations are promoting that. I had previous connections from my work in older people's housing, which some very good organisations are trying to bring forward. We have not seen anything under the Act as yet, although I can check whether there is anything on which I do not have a note today and I could provide that to the committee.

An Cathaoirleach

I would appreciate that.

Senator John Cummins

I wish to follow on from my earlier questions relating to the repair-and-lease scheme. We have set targets for local authorities in a circular that issued to them. Is that correct?

Ms Áine Stapleton

Yes, that went out in February.

Senator John Cummins

I was calling for that for a long period at meetings of this committee, so I welcome the fact that it has happened. Feedback we got from the sector, including from Dublin City Council, Cork County Council and Limerick City and County Council, highlighted the fact they felt as though the €60,000 figure per unit was too low. That is direct feedback from the local authority sector; it is not just me saying it. From my interaction with the council in Waterford, which has delivered 50% of the national total of the repair-and-lease scheme, it is becoming increasingly difficult to deliver units with that €60,000 figure because of inflation in the construction sector. It is not a free €60,000; it is fully recouped by the Department, so it is not an expense to the State. Anything we can do to extend the figure to €80,000 per unit would be welcomed throughout the sector, not only by the local authorities I mentioned but also by the other entities involved. The sector is delivering these units. There is of no cost. It is just the finance cost of providing it and that is fully recouped by the State.

I know this space, and the Chair mentioned the fact I refer to it frequently. I get stick from all my colleagues on the committee because I talk about it so often, but I do so because I have seen the benefit of it. Waterford City and County Council has not used hotel and bed and breakfast accommodation for emergency accommodation in the past three years because one- and two-bedroom accommodation has been provided through the repair-and-lease scheme in city centre areas. That is the only reason we have not been using it. It frustrates the life out of me when other local authorities are not delivering through a scheme that has been proven to be successful in my county. Nevertheless, the figures need to be revised. I ask the departmental officials to take this as direct feedback because an increase is needed urgently in that space.

Moving on to the local authority affordable purchase scheme, we are making good progress in my county and I can speak only about that, given I know it best. It is not meant to be parochial but is just to give an example. A total of 119 affordable purchase units are currently available in Waterford and about half of them, between the LDA units and the council-contracted units, have been sold. One difficulty has become apparent. This is a learning exercise all the time. There needs to be an exercise in education with the prospective buyers on what this is. These are private homes; it is just that the State is taking an equity stake to reduce the cost to be able to assist the purchasers in purchasing the property. They are not social homes. Whether we like it or not, there is an element of stigma regarding the fact the councils are running the process on this. I am not criticising the councils. They are doing an excellent job - a team of two in Waterford City and County Council are doing a tremendous job - but there is an element of uncertainty and unfamiliarity, because the local authorities have delivered social homes primarily, that these are in some way social homes, but they are not. There is probably a case to be made for a centralised process for this such that applications would be managed by the agency, or something whereby the process would not be removed entirely from the local authorities but whereby the purchaser would be able to distinguish between the two bodies.

On top of that, when these homes went out for expressions of interest, income figures were attached to them. They are irrelevant, however, applicants are approved for the mortgage approval and income does not come into it. If someone cannot get a mortgage for four times his or her income, the question of income does not apply. There is a need for a calculator, similar to that which exists for the shared equity scheme, where I could put in the market value of the property, the mortgage approval in principle, the help-to-buy approval sum and the savings I have, and an indication would be given to me. Applicants would apply and the indicative figure for which they could purchase the property for would be given. That is missing but it would be a useful tool in the context of what is being developed by the agency. I do not know whether it has been discussed but it certainly reflects the feedback I am getting on the ground. What are the views of the Department in that regard? This is new.

Ms Caroline Timmons

Many of those points are valid. The availability of a calculator was looked at by the Housing Agency and it developed one last year, so I will check whether it is going to put it on its website. I imagine it will-----

Senator John Cummins

It needs to be front-facing.

Ms Caroline Timmons

-----given it makes sense. I think it is available to local authorities and exists but the point about putting it on the website is a good one.

The Senator's point about the marketing of the units is good. It has arisen at previous housing summits where we have looked at the best practice that has been developing on some of the local authorities. Waterford council has been excellent in this space, as has Cork City Council, which has taken an approach that has proved effective whereby it almost acts as a private provider of houses. We have tried at the summits to disseminate some of that best practice to the local authorities and we have continued to do that by working with the local authorities to say they might want to look at doing it in a certain way in order that the purchasers will understand the process, the type of home they are getting and the fact it is not akin to a social home, although, as the Senator noted, some of that is unfair stigmatisation that we need to tackle from a policy perspective.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Cummins has used his quota of repair and lease discussion now.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Earlier there was reference to the 19,000 units of social housing that are in the construction report as being in the pipeline. While looking at it earlier, there were just a few things that came up, and I will refer to a few examples that I found in the report. Of the 19,000, there were 18 homes in Laois on site since quarter 4 of 2018. In Waterford, 24 homes have been at stage 1 approval since quarter 1 of 2018 and have never been progressed to preplanning or cost check. There are 37 homes in Boyce's Street, Cork, that have had full planning design prepared since quarter 1 in 2018. In Galway there are 13 homes with full design preparations since quarter 4 of 2018. The report gives a figure of 19,000. The homes I refer to have been in the report now for five years, or four years if we take the 2022 figures. Are these homes going to be the in same report next year and the year after or will other homes reappear? The Department refers to a pipeline of 19,000 homes but when will they be delivered? This is only a sample from the report.

Ms Áine Stapleton

The Deputy has raised a very practical point. We are working with the housing delivery co-ordination office to deal effectively with a clearing house process through some of those approvals that seem to be stuck at a particular stage of the approval process in order that we can get an updated view in relation to some of those, and particularly those earlier ones the Deputy touched on, which may go back as far as 2018. That is something that is on our radar and we would not disagree. We need to bottom out the reasons they have not progressed to the next stage, whether they are capable of being progressed or whether there is some insurmountable difficulty with the project. This is something we are working through with the sector.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I thank Ms Stapleton. My next question relates to the discussion we had earlier with regard to the vacant homes unit now within the Department. How many full-time staff are specifically dealing with vacancy? I raised this issue about two years ago, and again last year, so it seems like there has been great progress.

Ms Caroline Timmons

Yes. Off the top of my head, I believe there are six, one of whom is part time. The rest are full time, as far as I am aware.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Are they specifically dealing with vacancy and not doing three jobs?

Ms Caroline Timmons

They are all specifically and very much focused on vacancy.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Does dereliction come under that unit?

Ms Caroline Timmons

No, dereliction cuts across planning as well. Dereliction is in the planning division as that is where the legislation comes in. That vacancy unit is now working across the Department with all the different units that manage the different aspects of the measures that are outlined in the vacant homes action plan. It works in with planning to look at dereliction and what needs to be done in that area. They are all working together.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Before I go back onto dereliction, the Government brought in a vacant property tax last year of 0.3%, which I believe was a shocking and disgraceful decision. When one considers that the derelict sites levy is 7% I do not know how the 0.3% rate can be justified. If one looks at other European countries such as France, they start off with 10% of the annual yearly income and this rises to 15%. From the Department's point of view, is that vacant property tax as it is now going to make any difference to a return of vacant properties when it is set at 0.3%?

Ms Caroline Timmons

It was an important activation measure. It is important that we give a signal to people that if they have a vacant property, we are very much looking for them to return it. The Department of Finance brought in the tax as requested and it is monitoring that tax to see how effective it is over time. We are certainly happy to keep working with that Department on that to ensure it is effective. That is the goal to bring them back in. We have measures to incentivise and to discourage vacancy. We must keep working on that.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I would say that a rate of 0.3% would not discourage anyone when property values are increasing every year. With regard to derelict sites, should a team be put together within the Department, similar to the vacant homes unit that would specifically target dereliction, and which would tie in, in the same way that Ms Timmons has described, with the vacancy unit that is with all local authorities?

Ms Caroline Timmons

At the moment the vacancy unit is co-ordinating with the derelict sites officers in the local authorities as well as with the vacant homes officer. We are encouraging that all of those would come under one umbrella in the local authority, where possible. This is actually happening and they are reporting in through the vacant homes unit.

The issue of derelict sites is being well managed in the Department by the planning side of the Department and I believe it is co-ordination across the units that needs to happen rather than a separate unit at this point. I can, however, take this back and have a look to see what the Department's view is on that.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I say this because we know from the figures that there is €12 million in outstanding derelict sites levy charges from last year. We also know for a fact that none of the local authorities are returning accurate figures for dereliction in their local authorities. Some local authorities are performing slightly better than others. This is legislation that goes back to 1990, and what we have now is legislation for derelict sites that is not being implemented by local authorities. What is the Department going to do to ensure that local authorities do what they are legally responsible to do?

Ms Caroline Timmons

Again, I will not speak for my colleagues in planning about measures that they are taking in that respect, but we will provide a note afterwards to the committee, if that is okay with the Deputy. We are working with local authorities to encourage them to use the Derelict Sites Act where possible. On the vacancy levy, there are new measures coming forward in that space as well that will be implemented.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

I suggest that the Deputy not forget that local authorities are responsible to their members, rather than to the Department.

Deputy Thomas Gould

The current position is we have no-one responsible for it. Call me old-fashioned. I made the point to the local authorities when they came in here that if I illegally park and I get a ticket then I must pay it. But what if I have a derelict building, as there are all over Cork city? There is a derelict building on North Main Street in the dead centre of the city that had to be secured because it was at risk of collapse. In half of Cork city there is unbelievable dereliction and Cork City Council is taking CPO action but it is taking decades. I might come back in again. I thank the Cathaoirleach.

An Cathaoirleach

I wish to advise Deputy Healy-Rae that we have a seven or eight minute slot and that is for questions and answers.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

I thank the witnesses from the Department for their attendance. Having listened to Senator Cummins and to Deputy Gould, I accept that we all have different angles, but the one commonality is to provide as much housing as possible for people who need houses and who are in a desperate way in different situations around the different counties. In the neck of the woods that I come from, starting in the town of Kenmare and coming out the top of the town in my mind I just counted all of the vacant house out to Kilgarvan, not even half a mile off of the road. There is a fairly good CIÉ service there with Bus Éireann for public transport. All the way through Kilgarvan and eastwards down into Killarney, and a good seven miles out from Killarney, in that 12 or 14 miles of road, there are 55 houses vacant. I hear people talking about exorbitant figures for rent. If you decided to rent out one of those houses, you could only command maybe €600 or €700 a month. There the trouble starts because if a person is in the higher tax bracket, he or she must pay 52% of that €600 or €700.

The person is then left with €300 or €350 to pay for insurance and all the other things he or she has to pay for in order to keep the house standing. If the person rents it out, he or she is responsible for the fridge, the cooker and different things. That is one of the reasons those houses are vacant. I have a suggestion on this that I have raised in the Dáil. An offer of €800 tax-free was offered to house owners - I do not like the word "landlord" - to accommodate people fleeing the conflict in Ukraine. Could that be expanded to allow the individuals who own these houses to make up to €800 tax-free out of their houses? That would be one way.

These people have another big problem. There has been much talk of eviction and eviction notices. The problem is many house owners are afraid that if they rent out their house, they cannot get it back. There has been an awful lot of hay made about the ending of the eviction ban, but there is still an eviction ban there in a way because I understand that if someone stays paying their rent and the house owner has to go through the legal process to get his or her house back, it could take up to four years. People cannot or will not put themselves in that situation, because they might want to get the house back to sell it or want it back to put a family member into it. That timeframe is therefore too long. People will then have to deal with the RTB, which is overregulating the thing to the point people are afraid to rent out their homes because they are afraid they will not be able to get them back. If the renter is not paying at all, it can take a full 12 months to go through the legal process.

Those are the blockages I see, and they are just with the 55 houses. In places like Rathmore, Brosna, Knocknagoshel and different villages, the houses are there but people just will not let them for that kind of money and put themselves in jeopardy of not getting them back. We could do much more about the empty houses we have in our areas. It may different up here in Dublin, down in Cork or in Waterford where the Senator comes from.

We have another problem, namely, planning permission for young couples or young fellows who want to build their own houses. Family members on farms are accommodated and that is great. I appreciate it and love to see a young fellow building a house and staying on the farm. He can be beside his parents as they get older. They work together and the parents can mind the children and they can mind the parents. It works well. However, another type of person will not get planning permission and we need to look at the issue. Let us say there is a farm. The farmer's son or daughter will get the permission and that is grand, but there could be a fellow living in a cottage all this life and his parents lived there too. He will not get permission in some or many of the designated areas, because they are deemed an area under urban pressure. If he is out the road in Muckross or up in Spa or wherever, he is treated the very same as if he were coming out from Killarney. That is unfair on those type of people.

An Cathaoirleach

The Deputy might give the officials a chance to respond to some of his questions, because it is only a seven-minute slot.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

On the rental market generally and whether it is attractive for property providers to provide property, we are having a review of how the whole market works. The issues of taxation that came up in the debate are ones we have raised with the Department of Finance and we will continue to do so. We heard a lot about vacancy and the Government decided the vacancy grant could apply for houses to rent, so that may assist. Overall, the general points the Deputy made about the rental market and whether people will provide property are absolutely a concern the Department shares. We will just have to work through those in a strategic way and we will be doing that over the coming months.

As for the planning issues, there is a whole other debate about rural pressure, about how national policy and local policy operate, about sustainable development and about all those issues the Deputy is familiar with. They can only be worked through by the local authority in conjunction with national guidance. They are all tricky issues to get the balance right on.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

I will raise another issue. We have an awful lot of national primary and secondary roads in our county. Young fellows who want to build would get planning permission with no bother, except there are restrictions from the National Roads Authority and Transport Infrastructure Ireland, even with existing entrances or exits or whatever we want to call them. If you are coming out it is an exit and if you are going in it is an entrance. Even if an existing exit will be used, permission is still denied. These are farmers' sons, invariably, and just because the road they are on coming out is not in the charge of the local authority they are denied the right to build a house. That has been happening in Kerry since 2012. There are people who would build their own houses on their land but are denied the right to do that. If they go to another location they will be denied the right to build because they are not long enough there under the residency rule. I am asking for that to be looked at as well.

An Cathaoirleach

We are going through a substantial, substantive change in planning legislation at the moment and the Deputy is very welcome to come to the committee and make the point at that stage, when we are convened on planning matters.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

I will, but I have no problem in saying it now so long as the officials listen to me, because these things are important. Everyone we can house counts, whether it is with planning permission or getting through the blockage so people can rent houses that are vacant. We should look at everything. I am glad to have got the opportunity to speak and thank the Cathaoirleach for allowing me.

Senator John Cummins

Returning to the local authority affordable purchase scheme, it is all first-hand feedback. I identified this issue prior to the budget in September. The officials must correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think there was any sort of robust discussion between the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Department of Finance on the difficulties that were going to be experienced by the people with a 70% loan-to-value ratio where the help-to-buy scheme interacts with the equity available, notwithstanding that they are a small cohort. As the officials know, we have primary legislation that says equity up to 40% can be taken by a local authority in order to reduce the purchase price available and make it more affordable for people to get their foot on the ladder. The higher equity requirement is more of an issue in Dublin than Waterford, but is still an issue for a cohort of people.

From my calculations, I can see that the maximum equity that somebody in Waterford can avail of is about 22% if they are going to combine it with the help to buy scheme. That is about €65,000. If they were to get a higher equity of €75,000, to which they are entitled under the Affordable Housing Act, and we have considered that they need a higher equity in order to reduce the amount for them to purchase, they lose their help to buy. It is where that interaction comes in.

I appreciate the difficulty does not lie in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage; it lies in the Department of Finance. What I want to ensure is that there is that robust level of discussion happening, which I do not believe happened prior to the last budget. I think some papers went back and forth between both Departments but I do not really think this issue was grasped at the point it needed to be grasped in advance of the budget. We are now in April and we are nearly getting into a budgetary cycle. I want to make sure it is on the radar because as more affordable purchase properties become available, more and more people will be caught by this. Ms Timmons is obviously aware of this.

Ms Caroline Timmons

Yes, that has come up a number of times. As the Senator is aware, the Department did seek to progress the matter with the Department of Finance last year. I absolutely confirm that it is continuing to be an issue that we wish to progress with the Department of Finance this year. The Senator is aware the rules of the scheme go up to 70% loan-to-value, LTV, and those continue at present, but we will engage again over the coming months. As the Senator said, we are getting into that process now where we need to be preparing for the next Finance Bill, so we will be doing that.

Senator John Cummins

My suggestion in this space is a simple amendment that the loan-to-value ratio remains at 70% but it is based on the affordable purchase price rather than the market price of the unit. What that will do is bring a whole additional cohort of people into the net for affordable purchase properties. In fact, it will probably nearly dip into the social housing bit and it will certainly close the gap between both, which would be very welcome, as I am sure Ms Timmons will agree.

Ms Caroline Timmons

Absolutely. We will progress that again and we will work with our colleagues in the Department of Finance on that.

Senator John Cummins

It would be remiss of me not to mention a point that I raised in the Seanad. I note the response that came back and I know the Chair has just corrected me to say I should not have mentioned repair and lease again, but I am going to. I put in a proposal to the Department to have a cost rental version of the repair and lease scheme. There is a 20% discount on market rent inbuilt into the repair and lease scheme as it is constituted at present. In an area like Waterford that has delivered a huge volume of repair and lease, the issue is that we need to have that mix of tenure on certain streetscapes, which we cannot use currently with the existing schemes. If anywhere was best placed to run a pilot in that respect, it would be Waterford.

I have put in how it would be done. Waterford City and County Council is willing to operate a pilot in that respect and I ask that it is granted sanction. The issue is that it probably sits more on Ms Timmons’s side of the house, even though the repair and lease scheme, as it currently sits, is on the social side. Perhaps Mr. Ó Coigligh, because he is sitting in the middle, might bridge between both and might be able to give sanction for same.

Ms Caroline Timmons

I can certainly confirm that Ms Stapleton and I will work on it together. We do talk to each other from time to time and she had passed on the proposal to us. It is for the two teams in both units to work on together to see if we can progress that over the next few months.

Senator John Cummins

Perfect. I take it that Mr. Ó Coigligh will mediate in the middle.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

I hope we do not need that.

Ms Áine Stapleton

To come back to the point the Senator raised in his earlier contribution about the €60,000, we will review that and engage with colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, so we will take that feedback on board.

Senator John Cummins

Thank you.

Senator John Cummins took the Chair.

Deputy Thomas Gould

To follow on from Senator Cummins, local authorities have come here and said that the €60,000 is not enough for many local authorities to get them to buy in in the way that Waterford has bought in. While the Department is reviewing that, it is certainly something that could make a difference to get local authorities to buy in.

On a point we touched on earlier, there was a story in the Irish Examiner yesterday, and I heard a contribution recently, that Cork County Council said it was never informed extra funds were available to local authorities to hire vacant homes officers. The Minister said recently, maybe two weeks ago, that the local authorities needed to get their fingers out but the problem is local authorities did not know there was anywhere to put their fingers because they were never told. One of the problems, which the witnesses referred to earlier, is that local authorities do not have the staff or the expertise in place to deal with all of the different initiatives that are there. We had the County and City Management Association in recently and it reckons the local authorities are short hundreds of staff to deal with the projects that are there. Is there a new line of funding for local authorities to hire vacant homes officers and appoint affordable homes officers for cost rental? What I see in local authorities is that some staff are under unbelievable pressure and are trying to have three or four hats on at a time. If we are going to have all of these schemes, there needs to be funding to deliver them. That is my first question.

Ms Caroline Timmons

I might address the vacant homes officer piece first but I also note we have provided additional resources for affordable over the last while to Cork and to all of the other counties involved.

Deputy Steven Matthews resumed the Chair.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Will they be stand-alone officers? What we saw in the past, when funding was provided, was that a person would have three or four jobs, and one of them would be that job. I am talking about stand-alone personnel to deal with this.

Ms Caroline Timmons

To come to that point, in the first place, the Department has a role in providing strategic workforce planning across local authorities and working with local authorities, but it is, in fact, the chief executive who is responsible for the resourcing of any given area in the local authority, so those decisions lie with that chief executive. However, in the vacant homes area, since 2018, in order to try to bring that work forward, we started providing funding for a designated officer to be put in place, and that was €50,000 at the time. Since Housing for All, we have upped that to €60,000. What we did as part of that ask was to ask them to make that a full-time officer in recognition of some of the issues that the Deputy has just outlined, for example, perhaps they were wearing too many hats in the local authority and the chief executive was asking for people to do a lot of different things. A lot of the factors that the Deputy is mentioning are very true. The simple fact is there are so many things to do and we are asking local authorities to do a lot, and they do not have enough resources to do it, so I can understand that, sometimes, the same person is doing a few jobs.

In the vacancy space, we have got a vacant homes office in the first place, so the €60,000 is offered for the office, and we are then requiring that the vacant homes officer be full-time. We have also given additional funding to that office and, as part of the vacant property refurbishment grant, we offer up to €180,000 in additional funding to process applications under that grant. Therefore, there is additional funding and, indeed, Cork County Council drew down €120,000 of that funding over the last while. We have been providing the resources but what we want to do now, because we are asking them to do even more in the vacancy space, is to check that that is enough. As part of the review of the overall vacancy grant which we are bringing forward and the new measures that we will be putting in place, we have asked them to make sure they have the resources in place. We expect there will be an uptick in the number of people applying for the grant, so we need to make sure the vacant homes office is adequately staffed.

Deputy Thomas Gould

On staffing, we need to look at the tenant in situ scheme.

I came across a terrible case last Friday where a lady got a phone call at 3 p.m. to say the local authority was looking at purchasing the house. She was leaving the house on the Saturday and going into a family hub because for six months she was waiting to get onto the housing list. By the time she got onto the list, the landlord had sold the house. By the way, the landlord was willing to sell it to the local authority. The landlord sold the house and the woman and her four-year-old daughter are now in the family hub. I spoke to her before I came in here today. That was a resources issue. The Minister had not provided the ministerial directive or note in relation to the tenant in situ scheme. The Minister is merely telling local authorities to put a tenant in situ scheme in place but is giving them no resources and no staff. I know of other people who will be in the same position. Now there seems to be a bit of push behind tenant in situ scheme but I am referring to the period from June or July last, when the scheme came in, to January or February.

I also see staffing issues. We spoke about my examples in regard to housing earlier. We have a situation in Knocknaheeny regeneration, phase 2C. It has been under construction for four years. It involves 24 homes. I came from Knocknaheeny. I went to my first meeting on regeneration in September 2000 but it is now 23 years later and it will be at least another seven years before the regeneration is complete. We are knocking 420 houses to build 630. We are building 21 houses a year. This is madness. The question is, have they got the resources to deliver because something, someone or somewhere is falling down?

Ms Áine Stapleton

I might touch on that from the social housing perspective. We have provided an additional allocation of 250 staff to the local authority housing delivery teams that would be dedicated to social housing delivery. The issue a number of local authorities are facing at present is the turnover of staff, the tight labour market and the delay in filling vacancies. That is creating maybe a separate issue. They have the resourcing for the posts and they have they funding but it is the turnover of staff. We see it across the public service and, indeed, in the Civil Service. It is a very tight labour market at present. That is creating challenges and we are aware of that.

Deputy Thomas Gould

As I said, I came from Knocknaheeny, but I now live in Gurranabraher which is just below it. It was built 85 years ago. It was one of the old Cork Corporation social housing schemes. Why are local authorities not being mandated to deliver direct build? Why are local authorities not hiring staff and building their own? That is what we did in Cork and right across the country. We need a return to a percentage of direct builds by local authorities to help get us to where we need to be.

We had housing targets this year. In 2022, the target was 30,000. Every indicator would tell the Department we need to be hitting at least 50,000.

Ms Áine Stapleton

When we are looking at housing delivery, we are looking at a collaboration across the public and private sectors with different ways of collaborating, depending on whether it is local authority land or it is land owned by the private sector which is leading on the development. Inevitably, we need the construction sector to work in partnership with us to deliver housing. That is a model that we will aim to build on and, under Housing for All, help support the sector to expand in line with demand.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

Even in what are sometimes called "the direct-build days", there were still local authorities-----

Senator John Cummins

They were not direct-build days.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

-----contracting in-----

Senator John Cummins

They were still contracts.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

-----local companies to build.

Senator John Cummins

Always.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

That has not changed hugely save that there is a greater emphasis on mix. We are still dependent, as Ms Stapleton said, on the construction industry-----

Senator John Cummins

It never happened.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh

-----to build the houses, as the Deputy will know.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I know. I live on Cathedral Road and that was built-----

Senator John Cummins

By a contractor.

Deputy Thomas Gould

No. Cork Corporation had workers. The old corporation hired carpenters, plumbers and painters directly. That is what we need to get back to.

An Cathaoirleach

We can have a cup of coffee and reminisce about the past after this.

I thank Mr. Ó Coigligh, Ms Stapleton and Ms Timmons for their appearance again at the committee. They have given us a considerable piece of their time today. They have a huge workload. The Department is doing excellent work out there. We obviously need to do more and to do faster, at scale and at speed. They are fully aware of that. All the Department's officials and support staff are aware of that. We will support them in that work. I thank them for their attendance today. Gabhaim buíochas leo.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.55 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 25 April 2023.