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Joint Committee on Justice debate -
Tuesday, 30 Apr 2024

Legal Aid Board: Chairperson Designate

We have received apologies from Deputy Mark Ward. Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire is substituting for Deputy Ward and I am sure he will join us shortly. This is the first of two sessions today. In this session we will engage with Ms Nuala Egan, who has been appointed chair of the Legal Aid Board. Ms Egan is very welcome to our committee, we are delighted to have her with us and we thank her for coming in. I would also like to thank her for accommodating us in having the meeting at a slightly earlier time than planned. We have quite a busy programme at the moment and are trying to get through quite a lot of business. The format of the meeting is that I will invite Ms Egan to make a brief opening statement, before having engagement with members as per usual.

I remind all present of the long-standing parliamentary practice not to criticise or make charges against any person or entity in such a way as to make them identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be defamatory or damaging to their good name.

I invite Ms Egan to address the committee and I will then take questions and submissions from members.

Ms Nuala Egan

I thank the Chair. I am honoured to have been appointed by the Minister for Justice as chairperson of the Legal Aid Board and to be here today before the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice. I will give a brief overview of my background. I began practising as a barrister in 1997 and became a senior counsel in 2022. My main areas of work in practice consist of public law work; and representing clients whose constitutional rights or their rights under the European Convention on Human Rights have not been protected.

Before I worked at the Bar, I lectured in constitutional law in the University of Galway and as a researcher in the Law Reform Commission. In my early years as a barrister, I taught family law in Trinity College Dublin and was engaged as legal adviser to the subcommittee of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Procedure and Privileges, drafting rules in relation to the exercise of compellability powers by those committees. I have published in my legal areas of interest and last year was the lead author of a report with a very long title, “A Report on the Intersection of the Criminal Justice, Private Family Law and Public Law Child Care Processes in Relation to Domestic and Sexual Violence”. That was co-commissioned by the Department of Justice and the National Women’s Council.

As members can see, many of the areas in which I practice overlap with those in which the Legal Aid Board provides legal services. Over the years in my practice, I have been delighted to work with it in many cases and to see first hand the quality of the work the board's staff provides to clients, even when the quantity of work is vast and sometimes almost unmanageable. It has been my consistent experience that by reason of the dedication of the staff, the quality of the work done is never compromised by the demands of the numbers turning up at the doors of the law centres and mediation offices.

It was through this exposure to the realities of life working in the Legal Aid Board that my commitment to the board developed and indeed my interest in being on the statutory board arose. Obviously, the Legal Aid Board provides a core public service that ensures access to justice in civil matters for many people on the margins of our society, who would not otherwise be able to have their voices heard in court, or their rights vindicated.

Ensuring access to justice is a fundamental obligation of our State as without it, the very many other rights guaranteed under our Constitution can have no meaning for people who cannot reach the courtroom when their rights are challenged or breached. That requires me to comment, with some concern, on what the Legal Aid Board sees as an unacceptably low ceiling of the disposable income threshold which we are obliged to apply, that of €18,000 per annum for persons seeking to qualify for legal aid. Despite all of the cost-of-living surges in recent years, that figure has not budged since 2006.

The Legal Aid Board is a statutory independent body responsible for, in the words of the parent Act, the Civil Legal Aid Act 1995, "the grant by the State of legal aid and advice to persons of insufficient means in civil cases" and also for mediation services in the State. Civil legal aid and advice is provided primarily through a network of law centres and solicitors employed by the board. We have 34 full-time and two part-time law centres. As far as family mediation services are concerned, we have ten full-time and nine part-time offices. Private solicitors are also engaged to supplement the services provided by board solicitors in certain areas of law and on a case-by-case basis.

What is my vision as chair of the Legal Aid Board? As chair of the board, I am determined that the Legal Aid Board should fulfil, and be facilitated in fulfilling, its statutory function to its clients to the highest possible standards. It is our job to ensure the clients get right of access to justice in civil matters, that that right is vindicated and that our clients get the same level of service as would a person of means who is able to afford the services of his or her legal team. We are not just about ensuring access to justice, but about ensuring equal access to justice.

On short- and medium-term priorities, in the months ahead, the statutory board, of which I am chair, will prioritise supporting our executive with its many and expanding tasks. These include its actions regarding the family justice strategy, planning the necessary changes required by the family courts Bill, promoting mediation in the justice sector and in communities, implementing the provisions of the Assisted Decision-Making Capacity Act 2015, and maintaining a system that offers the earliest legal advice to international protection applicants and continuing to monitor changes in that process.

At present, there are a number of interlinked challenges the organisation faces. First, in contrast to the criminal legal aid system, and indeed the civil legal aid system in many other jurisdictions, the Legal Aid Board is budget-led, rather than demand-led. While the State grant has been increasing in recent years, so too has the range of services for which the board is responsible, as well as the number of clients in the areas in which the board provides services. One such area is international protection, where, as members will be aware, numbers have risen significantly in recent years.

In 2023, the Legal Aid Board faced an increase in applications for international protection when 9,918 applications were received. This was a considerable increase on the 6,858 applications received in 2022, which itself was an increase of 368% on the 1,464 applications for legal aid received for international protection matters in 2021. Not to further bombast members with statistics but as of 31 March 2024, 2,750 applications for international protection services have been received by the board. That is approximately 41% of the overall number of applications received for legal services in the same period. Our concern is, and remains, to ensure a timely and appropriate legal response for each of these clients.

Nonetheless, recruitment challenges continue and create the risk that the organisation will not be able at all times to provide timely services to all of our clients, and not just those clients seeking international protection but those clients seeking our assistance in the various areas of law within our remit.

On the employment of solicitors and mediators, the board is subject to Government restrictions on what it can pay solicitors, including newly qualified solicitors. Our solicitors are paid less than their comparators in the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions or in the Chief State Solicitor's Office. The reality is the market for lawyers is buoyant at the moment and has been for a number of years. The board has made and continues to make significant efforts to recruit, but the reality is it is difficult to hire solicitors willing to work in more expensive locations, such as Dublin, for the rates we can provide. As chair, my concern is that should this difficult situation persist, it may impact negatively on our ability to meet our clients' needs.

Likewise, the inadequacy of the fees payable to private solicitors for certain matters remains a concern and a risk to timely availability of services to clients. Given the workload of our staff in law centres and our difficulties in recruitment and retention, we are often greatly dependent on private practitioners who assist us in securing access to justice for qualifying clients. The simple reality is the current fee structure is not attracting solicitors to join board panels.

Finally, the Legal Aid Board’s ICT infrastructure and systems are in need of fundamental improvement. While that may seem a somewhat mundane matter unworthy of mention here today, the reality is it impedes our already overworked solicitors and administrative staff in their daily tasks of representing clients. For example, investment in a cloud-based management system is simply imperative. While our executive has devised a detailed ICT plan to address these challenges, the reality is that plan needs to be adequately resourced in order to bring it to fruition.

In conclusion, I alluded earlier to the lofty ideal of access to justice, which underlies everything the Legal Aid Board does. The challenges I have set out are the everyday issues which impact on our ability to make that lofty ideal into a reality for our ever-expanding client base. I am grateful to have been appointed to the very responsible role of chairperson and look forward to the challenges that will arise. I am happy to answer any questions to the extent that I can.

I thank Ms Egan for that very useful overview of her role and the service the Legal Aid Board provides. We will take questions from members now. I propose to the committee that we allocate four minutes per member instead of the usual six because we are under pressure with the number of items we need to get through this afternoon. We can have a second round if there is time left.

I have a few questions for Ms Egan. We have been sitting as a committee for almost four years now, we have produced a body of reports and we had a couple on legal aid in the past. A couple matters arose from that. Ms Egan mentioned she had a background in childcare. I am a barrister outside of the hat I wear here today and it is something relevant to my own practice. I have seen it happen first hand. There seems to be a gap in childcare proceedings where a person is in a scenario where their child is permanently placed in care, and that may or may not be with their consent. If it is not with their consent, they are entitled to representation and to have that argument made. It is a very fundamental right, the right of the family bond, where a child is being taken away. If that person engages with the Legal Aid Board, they can be represented and enjoy proper representation. In my practice, I saw many cases where people presented. People who in end up in a situation where their child is taken away are probably very vulnerable, probably have multiple challenges in life - perhaps addiction or other factors are at play - and they may not be in a situation where they are able to get to the Legal Aid Board or to engage sufficiently to complete forms and have an engagement.

I have seen it happen and I have heard it said in hearings here as well that some of these people end up either without representation or relying on the goodwill and pro bono approach of certain solicitors and barristers who might take them on, I suppose in the public interest. It strikes me that there is a scheme for criminal legal aid to be assigned from the Bench. It happens every day in every court in the country where a judge says that Mr. or Ms X does not have representation and assigns him or her to a local solicitor so that he or she is represented from that point forward. That seems to work well. I wonder if it is something the board could look at. It is something that strikes me as a gap. I am concerned that there are vulnerable people in extreme challenging circumstances who run the risk of being unrepresented because of that lacuna. That is my first point.

I will put a few questions as a block, merely for time purposes, and then hear what Ms Egan has to say. The second matter I would like to raise, which also came up in the committee's report on legal aid, is around the District Court, the administration of the scheme and the split-fee idea whereby counsel are briefed by solicitors, go into court and use the split-fee arrangements. The sums involved are very small: €50.40, and €25.20 if it is 50:50. Also, the process of putting in for that is cumbersome. It does not really seem to work. I wonder if Ms Egan has any views on whether that system is adequate or whether it needs to be revised and, I would say, brought into the 21st century, perhaps akin to the Circuit Court where one signs a form and it is processed automatically. It might save a lot of time and cost all round if that could be modernised.

I will conclude with a more general point. It is often said - I think it has been said in this room previously - that only the very rich and the very poor can afford to go to court. Is there a gap in the middle, perhaps for civil cases? I appreciate it is difficult because the State should not be funding somebody's particular grievance or hobbyhorse if it is unfounded, but there may be potential litigants who have a genuine cause or action but lack the means to pursue it or even to defend themselves. Ms Egan referred in her opening statement to the means test and suggested that the entry point is too low. I ask her to address those three points: the childcare point, the split fees and then the general point.

Ms Nuala Egan

I totally agree with the Cathaoirleach in respect of his concerns about representation of clients, such as parents in the childcare context. The parents we are meeting are very vulnerable and often have intergenerational issues or addiction issues. Often, they are not familiar with the complicated process into which they are thrown when Tusla, on foot of its concerns, initiates proceedings and seeks to bring their children into care or make them subject to its supervision. I note the Cathaoirleach's concern. I would say that we prioritise all applications for childcare support. The waiting lists, with which the Cathaoirleach may be familiar, do not apply in the context of childcare. Thus, any application that comes in from a client is prioritised. We do not charge any funds in relation to persons seeking representation in those cases. Under the Bridewell service, with which the Cathaoirleach may be familiar, a number of expert solicitors provide representation in respect of child public law between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m. five days a week. An excellent, high-quality service is provided there. In recent years, we established a private practitioners' panel because demand was growing in this area. We needed to be able to access the supports of private practitioners in this area where our own dedicated team simply could not meet the demand. We set it out on a pilot basis in a few counties for a number of years. Last year, we put it on a permanent basis so that we can deal with this issue. We are very conscious of the need for a timely response to the provision of services for people in these situations. They are very vulnerable and they often come to us at the very last minute and so our approach is effectively to down tools and do our very best to get things ready for them.

The Cathaoirleach's second question was about the process of payment in the District Court.

The split-fee system.

Ms Nuala Egan

We totally agree with the Cathaoirleach about the complete inadequacy of the funds we can offer in terms of the private practitioner system. It is fundamentally affecting our ability to provide the service in certain areas. We have two counties at the moment in which no private practitioners are willing to get involved. That will change. They may be willing in a while, but at the moment no practitioners are willing to provide a service in counties Sligo and Longford.

I am sorry to hear about the process being cumbersome. We say that once we get the documentation in, we will respond very quickly and endeavour to pay the practitioners quickly. It may be that in certain circumstances that does not happen. I will accept that, but also the system needs to be digitalised. Our ICT system is simply not up to scratch, and this is one of the issues we need to address. I hear the Cathaoirleach's criticism and that is the extent to which I can respond at present.

I totally agree with the Cathaoirleach's third comment. It is a very real concern of ours. We have been saying it for a number of years. The €18,000 disposable income threshold is simply inadequate. People on the minimum wage are not qualifying for legal aid. As a result, there is a reasonably significant unmet legal need among people who cannot afford the services of a private practitioner but fall outside of our limit. We have no discretion. Once somebody reaches the €18,000 disposable income threshold, we have no discretion. Unfortunately, they are then left in a position where they have to represent themselves. We have made representations over a number years about our concerns about the limit. We hope that on foot of the recommendations of the civil legal aid review group, that is one of the issues that will be addressed.

Very good. I thank Ms Egan. I will call the next member. Deputy Pringle had indicated next. Then I will call Deputy Daly and Senator Ruane. That is the order.

I thank Ms Egan for her opening statement. It was interesting. It is timely that she is here today because we will be discussing the EU migration pact in a later session. In relation to the international protection element of the board's work, I wonder what impact the new procedure envisaged under the migration pact will have. Obviously, it may be a wee bit early for Ms Egan to comment on that. What impact will the new procedure, and the speed at which it is envisaged that it will progress, have on Ms Egan's solicitors who are representing immigrants? Is it fit for purpose at this stage?

Ms Nuala Egan

The pact itself is a matter of politics and policy. We would not comment in general, but I am conscious of the fact that it seeks to ensure that applicants commence the system and are out the other end within a 12-week timeframe. If it is the case that we are obliged to do that, resources will be necessary. At present, we are stretched in terms of our ability to deal with the international protection system as it is, and it takes much longer. We have no problems with that. Our commitment is to ensuring representation for every applicant who comes our way seeking international protection services. We will do that, but the time being taken at present is considerably longer. As long as we are resourced to deal with a 12-week timeframe, we will work with it.

It is clear from Ms Egan's submission so far that she is not resourced. This is not a reflection on Ms Egan, but she is not resourced and there does not seem to be any indication that she will be resourced. The reality is that those people seeking international protection will get inadequate legal advice through no fault of Ms Egan's practitioners or anything like that, but because the system will be so rushed and she will not be resourced to provide that service to them.

Ms Nuala Egan

We would hope that the resourcing issue will be attended to. Perhaps it is a matter that the civil legal aid review group will address in the coming months when its report is made public.

When Ms Egan spoke about solicitor recruitment and retention, she said that new "solicitors are paid less than their comparators in the Office of the DPP and the Chief State Solicitor's Office." This may be a bit unfair but I will say it anyway. Is it a judgment on our society that we look at people in need of legal aid as being something less and, therefore, they do not get the resources and they are not the people who the legal system is there to protect and work on behalf of?

Ms Nuala Egan

I would not like to comment on the rationale for it. I am concerned about the effect of it - it really does have a very significant effect. The work we do is vital. We cannot do it without the staff. Our staff are excellent but we cannot expect to do the flow of work that we need to do if we are not able to pay appropriate rates. That is a real concern of ours at present.

With regard to Dublin in particular, we had a situation in Clondalkin where we have not been able to fill a place for two years. It is a very real issue impacting on our ability to provide representation for our clients.

I have a final question. Ms Egan referred to the ICT update which needs to be adequately resourced in order to bring it to fruition. In the context of her vision and short-term priorities for the role, surely sorting out the budget and getting an adequate budget would be a priority.

Ms Nuala Egan

It is, yes.

However, it is not mentioned in the-----

Ms Nuala Egan

That is the short- and medium-term goal. My overall goal is to fulfil our obligations to provide access to justice but to be facilitated in fulfilling those. When I refer to facilitating those, that is a budgetary issue. I am sorry; that is what I was alluding to.

It might have been better to have clearly stated that because the Government will ignore it when it suits it.

I thank Ms Egan for attending and for her presentation. I have a number of questions. She mentioned the civil aid review and it being made public. Is it finished yet? When will it be made public?

Ms Nuala Egan

I am not sure whether the review group has completely concluded its work. I believe it is very close to doing so. We understand it may conclude its work by the end of this quarter, but I would not like to be held to that.

Ms Egan also mentioned the threshold of €18,000, which would exclude anybody earning more than approximately €350 per week. I know that in Scotland the threshold is £26,000, which is approximately €30,000. Did Ms Egan's office make any suggestions as to what this threshold might be raised to or has anybody else suggested or given an idea as to what it might go to?

Ms Nuala Egan

For the sake of clarity, it is €18,000 in disposable income-----

Disposable.

Ms Nuala Egan

-----but the Deputy is right in that, very often, people who are on minimum wage will not qualify. It sometimes depends on the allowances people have. That is another issue, in that the allowances are very often inadequate. For example, the maximum allowance we can give for accommodation expenses is €8,000 per annum, which in no way reflects modern life in many parts of the country, but particularly in Dublin. We have also made representations on that point. As to the figure we are seeking, I do not believe we put a figure on it in our submissions to the civil legal aid review group, but it was a matter of concern to many of the NGOs and the people making representations that an increased figure would be provided back from the review group.

On the matter of the Legal Aid Board potentially receiving increased funding, people coming into my office do not have a difficulty accessing criminal legal aid but many of them would like some sort of assistance with, perhaps, social welfare appeals-----

Ms Nuala Egan

Yes.

-----where one sees that disability allowances seem to be nearly routinely refused in many cases. They may be seeking assistance with applications to the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, or the Residential Tenancies Board, RTB. Would Ms Egan have any idea as to what areas she would like to expand into if there were more resources?

Ms Nuala Egan

Absolutely, and that is not even just a resourcing issue. If we are to attend before a tribunal, the Minister has to designate it as a tribunal before which we can attend. At the moment, even if we had the resources, we could not attend before social welfare tribunals, the RTB or other such tribunals. The only such tribunal that is designated at the moment is the International Protection Appeals Tribunal. There are two issues involved in that. I do not mean to put everything back to the civil legal aid review group, but I am aware that certain organisations raised the issue of the Legal Aid Board being designated as a body which could provide representation at additional tribunals such as the ones mentioned by the Deputy.

Finally, I attended a conference last year in the midlands at which it was said that it was quite difficult in domestic violence situations to obtain family law solicitors even though another scheme was in place. Are the wages or salaries of employees tied to some other scale which leads to difficulties? It is not the same as someone working in the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, for example. Is that the reason it is difficult to recruit into family law centres, for example?

Ms Nuala Egan

I will respond first by saying that we prioritise issues of domestic violence, but I hear the Deputy's concerns. To the extent that I talk about a comparator and us comparing unfavourably with the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Chief State Solicitor's Office, the reality is that the payment structure is quite nuanced. We have grade 3 solicitors, who are at entry level, as well as grade 2 and grade 1 solicitors, who are managing solicitors. Within each grade there are scales. I can clarify this for the Deputy and come back to him if he would more information but my understanding is that the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Chief State Solicitor's Office have greater flexibility to start at a higher scale within a grade. That can lead to a differential of thousands of euro over the course of a year which, in the context of a salary considerably lower than that which a private solicitor would get, is a big difference.

Okay. I thank Ms Egan.

I thank Ms Egan for her presentation. She referred to the salary scales there. Is she saying there is potential flexibility to start on a different point of the same scale or are two different scales used?

Ms Nuala Egan

The same scales are used. I should have made that clear to Deputy Daly.

They are the same scales but there is flexibility in respect of the point of the scale on which person starts.

Ms Nuala Egan

Exactly.

Thinking of access to justice being a fundamental human right, if the body responsible for prosecution already has favourable measurements in being able to keep up morale among its workforce and with pay, that creates an inequality compared with the body which is there to potentially advocate on behalf of people who have to defend themselves. The inequality in terms of being fair and just is kind of embedded. The comparisons with the DPP and the Chief State Solicitor's Office are useful because they illustrate that there are two sides of the coin.

On the digital infrastructure, perhaps Ms Egan will talk a little bit more about the positive impact that would have, but also whether there is scope to perhaps look at it being demand-led rather than budget-led. Has there ever been an analysis done in that regard? I refer to the impact a better digital infrastructure to assess or use particular data could have in respect of legislative and policy changes, and how that might impact the Legal Aid Board and, potentially, the cases it might have to take on. What will happen if the scope widens but the budget does not widen with it? Should a budget analysis be undertaken on the type of investment the Legal Aid Board would need in the context of legislative or policy changes that impact on it? Obviously the EU pact is one such development, but I am sure there are many other changes that happen in law which may impact in that regard. Is the digital infrastructure purely for case management or could it potentially have a much greater impact and perhaps account for some of that analysis?

As regards the staff, including support staff, of the Legal Aid Board, I know there is the obvious structure but I read online that there are 400-odd support staff, with administration and so forth. I note that Ms Egan's opening statement mentioned mediation, especially at a community level. I would love to know a little bit more on that. Is there a case to be made that the Legal Aid Board should be creative with regard to the types of people it is able to employ and given a budget that would enable it to do so? I refer to it employing staff who are trauma-experienced and able to be legal advocates and work with community members who struggle to navigate particular systems. The Legal Aid Board could develop some sort of community development-style approach in how it does its work. The fair access piece is not just about being able to access legal representation; it is also about being able to navigate and understand the whole system.

Ms Nuala Egan

Regarding the comparison between the criminal legal aid scheme and the payment structure relating to the Office of the DPP, I totally agree with the Senator. Our clients are often very vulnerable people who come to us for a variety of services. As I said, we only provide services in respect of civil legal aid matters. We are not involved in the criminal legal aid process. Be that as it may, it does not detract from the very valid statement that there is a very real vulnerability among our clients. The differential in the context of pay is a matter of huge concern.

Our service is as good as the staff that we have. We have extremely dedicated people, who have made a decision to commit to providing a public service. There is an acceptance to some extent that a lower fee is paid than would be paid in the private sector. If our fee structure were aligned with those of the Office of the DPP and the Office of the Chief State Solicitor, we could devise a career path in the context of public sector in order that people could at times work in the other offices to the betterment of all of our clients and the overall service. We regard that as being of fundamental importance. I hope that answers the Senator’s question.

In terms of the digital issues, the Senator mentioned morale. Again, there is a sense of obligation to the staff in the law centres. Our ICT service is such that it can impact the morale of our staff. It takes a long time to simply get into our system every day and it delays us in the work when we are already overworked. There is all of that, and I am sure the Senator has a sense of the reality of the situation. We would like to have an improved system of case management, which we fundamentally need. We need a system that is consistent with the ICT system that the Courts Service has just installed in order that we can have coherent interaction with it.

The Senator's point about data is extremely valid, as is her point about the impact of legislation on us. The Family Courts Bill is currently before the Oireachtas. While it is not our concern to comment on politics or policy, if the divorce jurisdiction is moved from the Circuit Court to the District Court, that will have a fundamental impact on us. We have no problem with the change, but we ask that we are provided with the resources to deal with the challenges that it will present. We make representations when legislative changes are coming down the line in regard to the impact on our budgets. If we had a better system by means of which we could make such representations, however, it would definitely be of assistance to us.

The Senator's next point related to support staff. We have an excellent support staff structure and we rely on those staff in many areas. The Senator mentioned family mediation. We are the designated lead under goal 4 of the State’s family justice strategy. Our obligation is to promote the use of alternative dispute resolution and mediation is the core of family dispute resolution in the context of the family justice strategy. We are trying to lead in regard to the training of personnel to become mediators and expanding their understanding of it. It is about making people understand that keeping children who are already traumatised by the situation in their family out of the courtroom, keeping their story out of the courtroom and having matters resolved in a mediated process is for the betterment of those children and their future, and the betterment of their parents. We are committed to promoting mediation as much as we can. It is our obligation under goal 4 of the family justice strategy, and that task has been assigned to us. Since 2011, the provision of mediation services has been one of our obligations. We are really taking to it and promoting it at the moment.

I call Deputy Ó Ríordáin, to be followed by our visitor, Deputy McNamara.

I am sorry that I missed the presentation. I apologise if my questions have already been asked by other members. I want to drill down into the €18,000 threshold figure. When was that figure arrived at and how long has it been the threshold?

Ms Nuala Egan

That was in 2006.

It has not been revised since then.

Ms Nuala Egan

No.

Who sets the threshold?

Ms Nuala Egan

That is set by the Minister and the Department of Justice.

I apologise if Ms Egan has already referred to this. Have there been representations to the Minister's office on this matter? If so, how recently did that happen?

Ms Nuala Egan

I would say it was at the end of 2022. At that point, we went into the review group process and we put all our hopes on that.

Does Ms Egan know what metrics were used to come up with that number in 2006? Was there any scientific explanation or does it link to anything?

Ms Nuala Egan

I cannot say that I know. I would be guessing. Again, we can come back to the Deputy and provide the information on that. All I know is that both it and the allowable expenses are completely out of sync with the demands of the cost of living today.

Does Ms Egan have a view as to what the threshold should be or does that fall outside her remit?

Ms Nuala Egan

We have not identified a definite figure. In 2022, for example, we identified an immediate increase to €21,000 because that would correspond with the qualifying level for criminal legal aid, which is €21,000.

That is disposable income.

Ms Nuala Egan

Yes. Just as a short-term measure, we referred to that. In terms of the representations we made to the civil legal aid review group, I do not believe we put a figure on it.

Can Ms Egan give me an estimate? This is probably an unfair question but does Ms Egan have a sense, even anecdotally, of how many individuals or individual cases are being missed out on because of the differential between €18,000 and €21,000?

Ms Nuala Egan

Unfortunately, and perhaps it goes back to the questions asked by Senator Ruane, we do not have that data. We would really like to have it. Anybody in the court structure can see that there is now an unmet legal need. People simply are not qualifying for legal aid. They are outside of our financial threshold, yet they cannot afford the assistance of a private team. In the court structure, we increasingly see people representing themselves and that is very often due to financial necessity.

What would the financial implications be for somebody who is outside of the threshold? What are the financial implications for the individual? They obviously take the case themselves because it is too expensive.

Ms Nuala Egan

Does the Deputy mean it would be too expensive to engage a solicitor?

Ms Nuala Egan

It depends on what someone is going through. The District Court fees are considerably less so they may be able to afford that, but if it were a long-standing matter in the Circuit Court, it may well be beyond their financial capacity.

What is the success rate of people who represent themselves?

Ms Nuala Egan

I do not have that statistic.

I was hoping Ms Egan might have an opinion. I assume the success rate is lower than for those who have legal representation.

Ms Nuala Egan

It may well be.

I have just been informed that I gave Senator Ruane an incorrect answer. I wish to correct what I said about solicitor’s fees. The solicitor scales are different for the Legal Aid Board and other entities. Our main concern is that they would not be and that they would be aligned. I apologise for giving the incorrect answer.

It is the same scale. Thank you.

I call our visitor, Deputy McNamara. We are under a bit of time pressure, so I ask the Deputy to be brief.

First, I congratulate Ms Egan on her designation as chair of the Legal Aid Board.

The Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union, at Article 47, states, “Everyone whose rights and freedoms guaranteed by the law of the Union are violated has the right to an effective remedy”. It also provides that legal aid shall be provided to those who need it. Obviously, the legal aid scheme is primarily concerned with domestic law. Citizenship, for example, is primarily a right contained in the domestic legal order and there is a good bit of case law around that.

EU citizenship is a secondary matter, but, nevertheless, it does involve EU law. My understanding is that people do not get legal aid to challenge citizenship decisions. That is just one example. However, there are many other rights contained in Union law such that people routinely cannot even apply for legal aid for or in respect of which I am not aware of people obtaining legal aid. Is this something the Legal Aid Board has looked at or will look at in the future in terms of the additional funding required to effectively vindicate that right in the Irish courts?

Ms Nuala Egan

The areas in which we can provide legal services are primarily set out by the parameters the Oireachtas has provided for us in the Civil Legal Aid Act 1995 and the amendments thereto. While we can provide legal aid in a considerable number of areas, there are a number of areas where we are specifically excluded from doing that. As I indicated to Deputy Daly, we are precluded from appearing before tribunals such as social welfare tribunals and the RTB because those tribunals have not been designated as matters in respect of which we can provide services. We can and do provide services before the International Protection Appeals Tribunal.

As a result of the position with resources, there are some areas where, in the context of some of the more tangential issues - and I say that with no disrespect - relating to international protection, we do not provide services. We have to rely on the private market to some extent to do that. That is a resources issue. There are two issues in that regard. There are certain issues that are legally outside our parameters and there are other issues where it is a question of resources. We work to ensure that the private system will pick up those differences.

Obviously, it becomes particularly problematic to represent yourself where the only remedy available is judicial review. If it is a plenary matter, perhaps a person might have a chance. Where it is judicial review, however, it is very difficult to see how somebody can represent themselves successfully. Does Ms Egan agree with the assessment of Ms Justice Deirdre Murphy, a retired judge of the High Court, that only paupers and millionaires can get access to the courts?

My apologies for the duplication. I congratulate Ms Egan.

That brings the session to a close. We are about to move on to another session. I thank Ms Egan for her engagement, which has been extremely useful. We had intended to engage with the board, so it was a good time to have her appear before us. I wish her good luck with her work. As a procedural note, we will inform the Minister that we have had engagement with Ms Egan.

Sitting suspended at 4.03 p.m. until 4.10 p.m.
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