Joint Committee on Transport and Communications debate -
Wednesday, 6 Dec 2023

National Transport Authority: Chairperson Designate

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We have received apologies from Deputies James O’Connor and Cathal Crowe. The purpose of the meeting today is for the joint committee to meet with the National Transport Authority chair designate, Mr. Peter Strachan. On behalf of the committee, I am pleased to welcome Mr. Strachan.

I will read a quick note on privilege before we start. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. I will not permit members to participate if they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members participating via MS Teams that, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

I invite Mr. Strachan to make his opening statement.

Mr. Peter Strachan

I thank the Chair and members of the committee for the invitation to attend.

I will begin by giving some brief details on my background and career to date. I am a geography graduate of Durham University and a member of the Chartered Institution of Railway Operators. I have 40 years’ experience in transport in the UK and Australia and have run a number of train operating companies in the UK and bus, tram and rail operations in Melbourne. I was the inaugural CEO of TransLink transit authority, the public transport authority in Brisbane and south-east Queensland. I was also director general of major projects in London with the UK Department for Transport and led on transport delivery for the London 2012 Olympic Games. I currently serve on the boards of Merseyrail and Caledonian Sleeper for Serco plc., the boards of the UK Rail Delivery Group and Transport for London, and I am a non-executive board member for Transport for Wales Rail. I serve as chair of the North East Ambulance Service NHS Foundation Trust in England and chair of UK Road Offender Education, UKROEd, the national driver offender retraining scheme.

At this point I will briefly recall the background to the National Transport Authority's, NTA’s, establishment and its role. The principal rationale for the authority was the need for a new approach to the planning and implementation of public transport services and infrastructure in the greater Dublin area to be delivered through a single authority with powers to ensure joined-up thinking and delivery across all transport modes. This was then extended so that the authority became the national body for public transport and taxi regulation. While the legislation establishing the NTA is complex and lengthy, as I am sure members of the committee will acknowledge, section 10 of the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008 sets down the high-level objectives the authority is required to achieve in succinct terms. They are neatly captured by the first objective in particular, which is “the development of an integrated transport system which contributes to environmental sustainability and social cohesion and promotes economic progress”. We are a non-commercial State agency of the Department of Transport and are tasked with delivering on the objectives of the Department under its sustainable mobility plan and the Government’s climate action plan. The NTA has an extensive list of functions. The full list is too long to repeat here, but it is worth highlighting the main functions to give a sense of the breadth of our activities. They include procuring public transport services by means of contracts; providing integrated ticketing, fares and public transport information; developing the public transport networks through capital investment; licensing commercial bus services; managing and expanding the rural transport programme; providing bus infrastructure and fleet and cycling facilities and schemes; developing and implementing a single public transport brand; regulating the operation of taxis, hackneys and limousines and their drivers; and regulating the operation of vehicle clamping.

The authority now receives approximately €1.6 billion in Government grants. Almost €1 billion is allocated to capital investment in sustainable transport infrastructure across all modes, ranging from major schemes such as BusConnects, DART+ and MetroLink to small active travel schemes. The remaining funding is allocated to the operation of subsidised bus and rail services by the CIÉ companies and other providers, as well as funding the administrative costs of the authority. The authority collects approximately €450 million in fare revenue, which is allocated to the operation of public transport services.

I will now move on now to some other aspects of the authority’s work. In 2023, the authority finalised a major plan for the greater Dublin area, which accounts for approximately 40% of the State’s population and economic activity. The Transport Strategy for the Greater Dublin Area 2022-2042, which was approved by the Minister for Transport, provides a comprehensive outline of what is required to meet the transport demand for the sustainable economic development of the greater Dublin area, taking into account the carbon emission reductions required in the transport sector. On a non-statutory basis and in partnership with the relevant local authorities, the NTA has developed transport strategies for the metropolitan areas of Galway, Cork, Limerick-Shannon and Waterford. The Galway strategy was completed in 2016 and is now in the process of being reviewed, with a public consultation planned for the first quarter of 2024. The NTA recognises the national planning framework is a key Government strategy that supports our transport strategies. It supports balanced regional development, compact growth and transit-oriented development.

The NTA acknowledges that the funding made available to the authority to invest in new and enhanced public transport infrastructure has grown substantially in recent years. These funds support the authority and its partners in the delivery of light rail and heavy rail fleet and infrastructure, bus fleet and infrastructure, including low- and zero-emission fleet, numerous active travel projects and the supporting technologies such as ticketing and information. The committee will be aware of the ambitions the authority has to deliver the infrastructure necessary to give the people of Ireland a choice of sustainable travel, which includes BusConnects in our cities, MetroLink in Dublin, light rail in Dublin and Cork, DART+ in the Dublin region and other significant commuter rail projects in Cork, Limerick and Galway.

More than €300 million has now been invested by the Government throughout the State in walking and cycling projects, which is an increase from an average of €10 million to €15 million annually only a few years ago. The active travel programme has grown substantially thanks to the large increase in funding which has enabled all local authorities to establish the appropriate expertise in their areas to bring a number of schemes through the design and planning process. Many exciting projects are being delivered on the ground in our cities and towns, which will transform how people travel in those locations. A key priority is joining up and integrating schemes to ensure a network of safe walking and cycling infrastructure.

The authority has worked tirelessly, as have our delivery partners, following significant levels of public engagement, to bring BusConnects Dublin core bus corridors, MetroLink and the first phases of DART+ infrastructure through the planning process. We hope some of these major projects will come through the planning system shortly so we can get to the delivery phase of these important projects. A third round of public engagement is under way in Cork at the moment, which I hope will finalise the proposals for sustainable transport corridors in Cork to be developed for planning.

Project governance is of huge importance to the authority and we follow the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform’s public spending code to ensure the correct controls are in place to estimate the cost of different projects and to ensure each delivery agency has the correct controls to manage the projects through delivery. The authority has now taken on the role of designing the network of public transport services to be delivered across the State with the assistance of external expertise. This has resulted in the publication of BusConnects networks for Dublin and Cork, with the final networks for Limerick and Galway to be published next month and for Waterford in 2024. The Connecting Ireland programme is the network of services the authority wants to deliver in rural Ireland to allow people to make vital connections to education, services and to their wider communities. The authority also has plans to provide new and improved town services. It delivered a new town service in Carlow earlier this year.

The authority delivers public transport services through its contracts with Dublin Bus, Bus Éireann, Irish Rail, Go-Ahead Ireland and a number of other operators across the State. Luas services are delivered by Transdev, which is contracted to the NTA and Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, as joint clients. Each operator has a number of contracted performance indicators that must be met and these are closely monitored by the authority. The authority is also responsible for the regulation of public bus services operated on a commercial basis, such as Expressway, Aircoach and Citylink.

The authority has restructured the delivery of the rural transport programme throughout Ireland, which is now branded as Local Link. We support 15 Local Link offices which manage the delivery of services locally. The Connecting Ireland programme is an ambitious programme of new and enhanced services to be delivered over five years across the country. To date, we have delivered approximately 150 such services and they are really making a difference to people who live in rural Ireland. We have seen a remarkable response from the public, with passenger numbers growing by 300% on new Connecting Ireland services compared with pre-Covid-19 pandemic figures in 2019.

The authority continues to prioritise the development of initiatives that are critical to the achievement of an integrated public transport system and to attracting new customers onto public transport services, as well as promoting walking and cycling. These include the Leap card, real-time passenger information, the national journey planner and making information available digitally on websites and apps. A number of innovative apps have been provided to make the journey as seamless as possible. However, we want to do more so we will appoint a supplier in quarter 1 of next year to build the next generation ticketing platform, which will deliver account-based ticketing across our services, facilitating the use of mobile phones, contactless bank cards and other digital forms of payment.

The taxi industry has been dealt a number of blows in the past number of years, including the impacts of the Covid pandemic. Alongside the normal regulatory work of the authority, we put in many measures to support the industry through those shocks and encourage its recovery. As of now, the number of licensed drivers across the industry has recovered to 96% of pre-Covid figures and we continue to see an increasing number of new applicants to the industry. We continue to grant aid the industry to increase the number of wheelchair accessible vehicles in the taxi fleet and the authority is on target to have 20% of the fleet being wheelchair accessible by 2025.

Sustainability is at the heart of the work of the National Transport Authority. I think we all know the challenges that we face to reduce carbon emissions in the transport sector. The avoid-shift-improve principle is key in all our work. Under the avoid principle, we encourage compact development and transit-orientated development through our transport strategies and in our interactions with development proposals. In the shift principle we are improving public transport networks and infrastructure to allow people to choose to use more sustainable travel. We are then improving the fleet by switching to low and zero-emission vehicles across bus, train and tram. We have introduced a fully zero-emission bus service in Athlone town and are now rolling out the new electric double-deck fleet across Dublin, which will be followed by Limerick next year.

I would like to conclude by recognising that the authority comprises the board, the chief executive and the staff. The overall effectiveness of the authority is dependent on each of these playing their relevant parts. We are supported in our work by the Taxi Advisory Committee and a newly established Transport Users Advisory Group who advise us as we develop policies and plans. We also have a number of external members who support the work of our board's sub-committees and whose expertise and guidance we value.

I believe that the board of the authority has been very conscious of the important public service role that we undertake. Its members have given the time and commitment necessary to the effective performance of our duties in order to ensure that the authority can successfully meet its statutory objectives. The authority is acutely aware of its accountability to Government and to the Oireachtas. The authority's executive is always available to the committees to explain the work of the authority and answer questions about the decisions that the authority makes in the course of undertaking its statutory functions. We will continue that engagement at the request of members.

The authority has a very ambitious programme of work to deliver over the next five years and I am privileged to have been appointed to this position by the Minister for Transport to guide its work. That concludes my opening statement.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Strachan. We have a rota for who goes first and, as it happens, I am the first to speak this week. Sometimes a committee member is No. 14 and I will be in about two meetings' time. Today, I am listed as the second speaker but as the first person listed is not here then I will take the first slot.

I thank Mr. Strachan for being here. I understand that he does not live in Ireland but visits frequently. We have tried to facilitate him as I think he is travelling later on. I urge him to please make sure not to miss his flight.

Mr. Peter Strachan

I do appreciate that, thank you.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Clearly, Mr. Strachan has an extremely broad range of experience, which is very welcome, both in the UK and Australia, and through his involvement with various boards. What knowledge does he have of the Irish system? I ask because every system and country differs. Perhaps he has loads of knowledge about our system or perhaps none. I would not discount him if he does not have any experience but perhaps there is stuff that he did not mention in his opening statement which shows he has an understanding of the Irish system. Is Mr. Strachan sure that he has time for the authority? I ask because he does an awful lot of other things.

On the NTA, I am around long enough to remember being a councillor. I was chair of the Dublin regional authority when the Dublin Transport Authority, DTA, was being set up and I think there was an interim chair of a body that did not exist yet in legislation. That was way back in time and the authority has come a long way. I ask Mr. Strachan, as chair, to outline his priorities, ambitions and challenges whether that is congestion, lack of funding of whatever. I am very interested in hearing his timeline regarding the use of credit cards and when people will be able to use them on various modes of transport. I have a Leap card but not everyone does and people getting off planes certainly do not usually have them if they are tourists.

I want to acknowledge the progress made. The introduction of the €2 fare has been a game-changer in terms of encouraging people to use and connect services. Last week, the chief executive of the NTA was before the committee and we appreciate her attendance plus those of her colleagues. We, as a committee, are interested in the issue of bus driver shortages. I am particularly interested in the provision of night buses in the Dublin region but also in other areas that warrant such a service. We have an issue with Dublin Airport and the cap. A lot of that is caused by the land-based access to Dublin Airport. What is being done to get ever more operators whether it is Aircoach, Dublin Express, Dublin Bus or other operators to deliver more people and make more services available so people do not have to feel that they need to drive their cars to the airport thus causing congestion and, equally, incurring quite large parking charges?

I did not know that Mr. Strachan was involved with clamping regulation. I did not know that about the NTA and I am not sure that anyone else did either so I thank him for that.

Mr. Strachan mentioned that the authority now receives approximately €1.6 billion, almost €1 billion of which is allocated to capital investment and it collects about €450 million in fare revenue so I presume that €600 million is allocated to subsidise buses. Is it fair to say that the fare box is less then 50% of the cost of running the service? In other words, are PSO transport services, wherever they exist, subsidised to tune of in excess of 50%? I have outlined my initial points and thank Mr. Strachan for being here.

Mr. Peter Strachan

I will try to comprehensively answer the questions in order.

On experience of the Irish transport system, those of us who live the other side of the water always take an interest in what is happening here because it is similar but different and, therefore, we have always got an eye to what is happening. If anybody thinks that there is a monopoly of good ideas in one or other area then my experience in transport would be that we are sadly mistaken and can be quite arrogant if we think that. We are certainly watching the development of progress.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We can learn from each other's mistakes as much as each other's successes.

Mr. Peter Strachan

Absolutely, it works both ways. We are very much keeping a watching brief and visiting from time to time to see what is going on. Since I have been privileged enough to be appointed as chair I have made it my business to try to get out and about as much as I can.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Mr. Strachan was appointed but when did his term as chair start?

Mr. Peter Strachan

The first board meeting that I attended was in April of this year. It is about getting out as much as I possibly can. You will find me not just sitting in board and committee meetings but wanting to ride a bus, Luas tram and the DART to see where Bray is.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

And cycle in the cycle lane.

Mr. Peter Strachan

Not today because it is a bit damp but I am sure it would be an interesting experience. Seriously, I am very keen to look and see what we do out and about, and not just in Dublin which is one of the important things that we recognise. There is always a risk with an authority that has its genesis, as the Leas-Cathaoirleach said, in something that is Dublin-centric that it continues to be regarded as Dublin-centric.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The authority did not last very long as Dublin-centric but I agree.

Mr. Peter Strachan

I have seen that elsewhere. I mean where you have a big dominant capital city and people outside the capital believe they are not getting a fair slice of the action. It is for that reason we held our October board meeting in Limerick. I had never been to Limerick before and I made it my business to arrive a day early to see what the challenges were in Limerick, as a city, but particularly from a public transport point of view when we are starting to think around what we might do with bus services and so on. I was also privileged to spend some time in the bus depot in Limerick, where we are preparing for the electrification of the bus fleet, and to talk to some of the schedulers and controllers there in the operations centre in Bus Éireann's premises just to understand what their challenges are. I hope that I have given a bit of the flavour of my job. Having seen the authority from afar it is really important now to see it on the ground.

On the time commitment, I recognise that I am a non-executive chairperson. There is always a trap for non-executive chairpersons, particularly those who have subject-matter knowledge, that they might try to do the chief executive's job for him or her from time to time. I am also very keen to make sure that the executive is held to account by the board but we do not stray into doing the executive's job. To that end, I make it my business to be in Ireland for at least two days, and sometimes three days, every four weeks for board meetings and committee meetings. I am available to any member of the executive, particularly the chief executive. We catch up every week or every other week by MS Teams - technology is a wonderful thing nowadays - so we can have that dialogue. I am available to afford the time I think appropriate to this role.

In terms of priorities, we could have quite a long list. By definition, however, priorities are things we should be doing first and foremost. My priorities for the authority are, first and foremost, to deliver the best public transport service we can for the country within the constraints of capital and revenue funding. It would be easy to say "Let's have world-class transport across the whole of Ireland" but we have to be realistic about competing demands for funds. A safe, effective and efficient service for all parts of Ireland, where it is appropriate, is the important thing. This is not just about Dublin. We will make sure we modernise the offer and make it as accessible as we can. We are upgrading the bus and rail fleets, looking at station infrastructure and doing business-as-usual upgrades. It is important that we keep pace with modern standards and modern facilities. We recognise we have a big job to meet our carbon targets and encourage modal shift. Encouraging modal shift is about having a safe, effective and efficient public transport service so that we get people to come out of their cars. I have been in this game too long to think you can just snap your fingers or wave a magic wand and people will get out of their cars. You have to make the public transport offer as attractive as possible to get people to make those choices about modal shift. That is an important part of it.

We have some big and exciting projects. If you cast across the other side of the water, people would say those are interesting and exciting things being done in Ireland. I mentioned them in my opening remarks, namely, BusConnects, MetroLink and DART+. Those are big projects. With them comes a huge responsibility in the context of their execution, spending public money and being accountable to the whole landscape of users and non-users. I see it as an important part of my role and of the priorities of the authority to guide those projects as effectively as we can. Those are top of the list for me.

The Vice Chairperson raised the question about subsidy. He is right. There are not many public transport authorities in the world that cover operating costs. London gets quite near it but look at the volume and mix there is there. In terms of operating cost to subsidy to farebox, we are not doing too badly. In my time in Australia, we were down to farebox recovery of under 20% in some places. We are a wee bit better than that here.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I am not saying it is a good or a bad thing. I was just asking the question.

Mr. Peter Strachan

That is where we are.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We have to be fair. The Government has reduced fares. They are cheaper than they probably ever were or certainly have been in the past ten years. It is €2 with the Leap card, and one is able to take multiple journeys in 90 minutes. I understand why revenue has gone down even though we are serving more people. I am not saying it is a bad thing. I was just trying to get my head around the numbers.

I was looking for the timeline for credit cards being usable, and also asked about night buses and airport services.

Mr. Peter Strachan

I mentioned that we are now looking at the procurement exercise for our next generation ticketing platform. A recollection I have from putting in smart cards when I was in the public transport authority in Brisbane was that the technology moves really quickly. A statistic which is in the public domain and which I do not mind sharing with the committee anyway is that nearly 90% of journeys on Transport for London are either by smart card or contactless. Sometimes we get a picture of the next Leap card in our head, but the way ticketing technology is going, it is much more likely we will go straight to bank card, contactless, mobile phone or other digital delivery channels, rather than the next generation of Leap. Given where the technology is now, we are probably two to three years away from that. One of my roles and one of the board's roles is to accelerate that as much as possible. We should not underestimate the task. Having seen failure of that elsewhere in the world, let us get it right rather than quick.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I will bring in our other members and might come back to Mr. Strachan at some point on the issues we did not get a chance to address.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Mr. Strachan is welcome to his new role. I thank him for his opening statement. His role is not so much hands-on as it is about policy, direction, steering the ship and keeping it on an even keel. We need to establish our priorities and Mr. Strachan mentioned a number of them. I would like more detail on the priority being given to metro north, which has been a bugbear around this place for over 20 years. It has been a long time talked about but nothing has happened. The main airport in Ireland, Dublin Airport, is one of the few airports in the world without a train or underground connection. It is something we need to get resolved with some speed. Will Mr. Strachan comment on that, as well as on work happening in the city to provide dedicated bus and cycle lanes? There is a certain level of competition between the two of them because space is at a premium.

Mr. Strachan mentioned rural transport. I live in a very rural area and many small villages and towns have benefited hugely from Local Link. We all deal with people looking for local authority housing and there were places where nobody would take a local authority house because they would have to have a car. There was no other way of getting there. Local Link has changed that somewhat, though it is still a patchy service in some places. Will Mr. Strachan comment generally on how much further that can go and how fast?

The Vice Chair mentioned the sweet spot we need to find. How much can we, as more and more people use public transport, bring the cost down and make it more attractive to people, while providing a decent service? A big issue for many is that the service is not frequent enough. Sometimes as it gets busier it lacks reliability, in that buses are full and they drive past. We hear of ghost buses in many areas.

Mr. Peter Strachan

I will try to deal with those in order. It was not an accident that I mentioned MetroLink as one of the top priorities because I am aware, going back to the Vice Chairperson's question about how much I know of what is going on here, of the history of that. As we sit here in 2023, the Vice Chairperson is right there are not many capital cities around the world which are not served by a dedicated rail line, a light rail line or some form of rapid transit. We have quite a lot of catching up to do and that is why it is on the list of priorities.

We should not underestimate the fiscal and delivery challenge of MetroLink. When I have been sitting in our programmes and investment committee, I have been bringing my experience of Crossrail, now the Elizabeth line in London, into the discussion about making sure we deliver this as efficiently and effectively as we can within a financial envelope and get the best expertise in the marketplace we can. We need to make this project attractive to the international construction marketplace. People will look at this and think it is a big project but let us make sure that creates the competition, through our partners in procurement, to get the right partners to deliver this. Members will find me really passionate about getting MetroLink in as quickly as we can but let us not underestimate the challenges of doing that, because they are big.

The challenge with any active travel or bus prioritisation and making sure we get the modal shift right by use of road space involves getting the best out of constrained road space. BusConnects, as a programme, is quite exciting in that respect.

On the face of it, it looks like a series of relatively modest interventions across the city. When they are joined up in the daisy chain, however, it can be seen where the use of the resource of the bus, and the drivers, can be maximised to get greater frequency and, importantly, greater reliability. Last week, colleagues from Dublin Bus were before the committee. Every time we talk to our delivery partners in the area of bus transport, it is about the reliability of the service and making sure that the resource use is as effective as possible. BusConnects will give that.

Are there compromises to be made on road space? There are, but when you look elsewhere at cities that have done that, it has a twofold effect. The way car journeys are potentially made less attractive through constraints and time can, in effect, be a driver to modal shift. People will leave the car at home because they can see the bus going past them through the bus gates, the bus jumps and on dedicated bus lines. We have also got to use that road space effectively for even more sustainable transport and active travel, such as cycling in particular, if we can. Compromises are to be made but I am quite excited about the BusConnects project in Dublin and other cities.

On how much further we can go with Local Link, the challenge, as the Deputy well knows coming from a rural area, is there is not necessarily the critical mass of numbers. When we sit back from it, and go through the business cases and the benefit-cost ratios, it is sometimes difficult to make the case for things such as Local Link, either from a capital infrastructure or resource allocation point of view, in comparison with things in some of our bigger cities. It is a particular role of the board in guiding the strategy to have the authority to say that on the bald face of it the business case might not be fully stacking up, but we know we have got a social obligation to make sure the wider socioeconomic benefits of inclusion, and access to jobs, education and social and health services, are provided by the transport infrastructure in that locality. We need to try to balance that up. If we had a blank cheque book we could do an awful lot more, but we clearly do not. I am not naive enough to think that we do.

I am sorry. I have forgotten the last point the Deputy made.

Deputy Martin Kenny

I cannot remember either.

Mr. Peter Strachan

We are as bad as each other.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I will bring the Deputy back in.

Deputy Martin Kenny

I wanted to ask another question about rail, but go ahead.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We will move onto the next member. I understand Senator Craughwell wants to come in briefly.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

I welcome the new chairman of the NTA. I always put on record, when we speak to newly appointed chairs, the point that it is a complete waste of time for them to come into us because, at the end of the day, we have no authority whatsoever over their appointments. I thank Mr. Strachan for taking the time to come in to set out his stall.

I will raise two issues that come across my table quite a lot. I am from the city of Galway. There has been a long campaign to get very light rail into Galway. There have been promises and all sorts of things, but I would dearly love Mr. Strachan to give some sort of commitment that he will at least have his board look at the possibility of a proper feasibility study that would consider the benefits of very light rail, the costings thereof, and whether it is something that would resolve many of the problems in Galway. The ring road is a contentious issue there. Most people I know wish the authorities would just get on with it and get it in there. It is not a great city for buses. It is a medieval city in many ways, with narrow streets, and is not really bus friendly. A bus into the city might work but the light rail proposal has serious merit.

The Leas-Chathaoirleach and I both live on the green line Luas that goes in and out of town. It is now massively congested in the morning any time from about 7 a.m. until 10 a.m. That is before an additional approximately 1,500 to 2,000 apartments open in that geographical area. Is any plan in place for that? I appreciate the Leas-Chathaoirleach letting me in on that.

Mr. Peter Strachan

On Galway and very light rail, we are currently looking at a BusConnects equivalent in terms of what the active and sustainable travel opportunities in Galway might give us. I am very happy to take away and discuss with the executive and board any view of whether there is merit in running a feasibility study or otherwise for very light rail. My caution, when people start to talk about light rail and then very light rail, and I have done it myself, is that we believe there is a much more cost-effective solution than doing that. My experience of light rail schemes is that they end up costing a significant amount of money, if we are not particularly careful. There are often better ways of deploying those resources, particularly into a better bus service, which can deliver more for more people in the locality compared with the narrow corridors of a light rail or very light rail scheme. However, I am more than happy to go away and discuss that with our executive colleagues and come back to the Senator on it, if that is all right.

I absolutely agree about the Luas green line. I interchanged just this morning off the red line to the green line. Even quite early in the morning, the volume on the green line was noticeably higher than on the red line. Given the development that the Senator rightly referred to, we need to have a look at that. We are coming up to a position of looking at the contractual delivery position for the Luas. We are also debating whether there is a rolling stock issue to be dealt with as regards the age and reliability of the current Citadis fleet. All those things need to be considered in the round. To go back to the Chairperson's question about what we know about it, the Luas is one of these things where we have all looked at it and said, "Wow, what a success story that is", but let us make sure that it does not become an over-success with overcrowding, and that we respond to the development on the Luas corridor. I am happy to take that away and have a look at it.

Senator Gerard P. Craughwell

I will just come back on the Luas issue. There is an unfortunate situation for anybody who is wheelchair-bound or has very young children. Quite frankly, for those who are in wheelchairs, using the Luas to get to work for a 9 to 5 job is out of the question. They just will not be able to make it. Is there any way that a small section of the Luas could be restricted for people in wheelchairs or young mothers? That might require doing something with the seating. I am not sure. It is heartbreaking to watch somebody in a wheelchair as Luas after Luas goes by and that person is unable to get on board. I am not too sure what the answer is but I should put it out there anyway.

Mr. Peter Strachan

Again, just this morning, I was on a green line tram and there was both a powered wheelchair customer and a lady with a buggy and relatively young children in the same area of the Luas vehicle. We have got reasonably level access. What it comes back to is the level of crowding. If those customers had been there two stops on, and attempted to get on at St. Stephen's Green, they probably could not have done so, even though people were getting off at that stop. The basic infrastructure is there as regards level access, or low floor access, across the whole of the Citadis vehicle, which is good. It is not one of these step-up things, but it is about the level of crowding and the space available, especially in those vestibule end areas of the tram vehicle. Asking our delivery colleagues in Transdev what they can do about that as regards policing and patrolling might be the way to go, rather than reserving space. We have got the accessibility capability. We just need to use the space effectively.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It would be remiss of me not to come in on the point regarding the Luas green line.

It is a fantastic service but Mr. Strachan should have other spurs on his radar, including on the N11. There is an eastern bypass reservation, a very significant chunk. Mr. Strachan was in Limerick and I am on the board of a school there. The working population in Limerick is less than that of Sandyford. Many of the journeys are just from town to Sandyford, and people are not getting on and off at many of the stops. If there were an express or another route to Sandyford, it would take much of the pressure off the green line. I was on the last Luas on Saturday evening and it was full. It was about 80% full when I was getting off in Dundrum because a large number of people are now living in Sandyford and Cherrywood. The pressure is only going to grow because Cherrywood is going. I realise Mr. Strachan is familiar with this matter but it should be on his radar that the green line is enormously popular. I do not want it to become a victim of its success. Other routes to Sandyford, including on the N11, that would bring passengers there to take pressure off the green line would be a great idea in the longer term but would be best put into operation as soon as possible. I apologise for that small intervention.

Deputy Duncan Smith

I apologise to the Chair and Mr. Strachan for being late to this meeting and missing the start of the opening statement. My heart skipped a beat when Mr. Strachan, in response to Deputy Martin Kenny, mentioned his passion for MetroLink.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Deputy has a friend for life already.

Deputy Duncan Smith

Mr. Strachan is on a good one already. The delivery of the MetroLink infrastructure is vital. When it is delivered, the people of the country, not only those in north Dublin, will wonder how they managed for so long without it. I agree it has to be delivered in a fiscally responsible manner. No one wants to see massive cost overruns or the pouring of millions upon millions into any project. We have been burned a lot in carrying out big infrastructure projects. I have a two-part question about this. Is there anything from Crossrail that Mr. Strachan believes is directly applicable? He is bringing his huge depth of rail experience here, which is very exciting. How does he believe the whole project can be moved forward more quickly, albeit with the planning situation we have?

My other question is on BusConnects. BusConnects is moving forward in Dublin. Where it is being delivered, I believe there are improvements. I am happy to see BusConnects being rolled out. We are seeing a delay in Cork, however. There is now a third round of public consultation, and we are looking at 2025, if not beyond, for delivery. I am working on issues such as next-generation ticketing, active travel, cycle lanes and better traffic-light management with local representatives in Cork, namely Peter Horgan and John Maher. We support improved transport infrastructure. Is there an opportunity to fast-track the measures I have mentioned for the Cork transport system? Although Mr. Strachan stated we want to get things right rather than deliver quickly, is there an opportunity in Cork to make progress on these measures while waiting for the routes to come through?

Mr. Peter Strachan

I thank the Deputy for his comments on MetroLink. There are many lessons from Crossrail and mega-projects elsewhere but the distinct one from Crossrail is to get the project programme and governance right from the outset. These schemes are difficult to deliver and are multi-agency. It is about having the right governance structure, programme boards and leadership to deliver. I am aware that TII colleagues, as staff of the delivery agency, are taking the need to get the right people in the leadership of the project very seriously. I cannot overestimate that. In Crossrail, we were able to deliver on the latter stages of the Elizabeth line because we had a dedicated, highly competent leadership team, a highly competent programme director and a laser-like focus from the Commissioner of Transport for London. There are many other subplots but if you get the leadership and procurement strategy right and have the right delivery partners from the outset, it can be a success.

Deputy Duncan Smith

Is Mr. Strachan's view that TII has the required focus on delivering the required leadership team?

Mr. Peter Strachan

TII, as an organisation, has a good track record of doing that but it absolutely needs to populate the leadership with the right people to do it. From an overall NTA sponsorship point of view, that is what we will be seeking to achieve.

On Cork, let me refer to the new-generation ticketing platform. I am not at all averse to considering piloting or staging the roll-out of things, provided it makes sense within the overall programme. If doing so can be made reasonably discrete, it makes some sense. For example, with regard to Brisbane, south-east Queensland, we rolled out a new-generation ticketing machine system in different parts of the sub-state at different times just to prove the concept. I am not suggesting Cork should be a guinea pig to get all the bugs out, because that can be at the opposite end of the scale, but there is some merit in considering the potential for piloting and staging roll-out rather than going with a big bang. That could have the potential for acceleration. I will be happy to consider this with the team.

Deputy Duncan Smith

That would be welcome. I was conscious of my wording in that, wherever we are trialling something for the first time, we should do it in the right way and actually deliver. Cork has immense transport challenges and we want to see BusConnects and improved rail services, including light rail.

People would say Ireland has not been great at big infrastructure projects, not only in transport but also in health and other areas. It might be a lazy trope and might not stand up to scrutiny. However, given Mr. Strachan's experience as an outsider coming in, is his assessment that it has been difficult to achieve big infrastructure projects here?

Mr. Peter Strachan

It is very easy to generalise. Regarding some of the big projects across the world that have been either roaring successes or challenging failures, not only in transport, you will find examples of both in the same geographies. It is very easy to jump to conclusions and it would be very easy to say that since project X has not been a success, the country in question must not be good at such projects. That is a dangerous assumption because, frankly, Ireland has carried out some quite big projects very successfully. The UK has done some big projects successfully. I include Scotland, with which members will know I am familiar from my accent. Scotland has also carried out some big projects very unsuccessfully. Therefore, I would not want to generalise. I am focused on whether we have the infrastructure, by which I mean the governance and processes, to get some of the big transport projects right. I believe we do. This is why I spend quite a lot of my time with the capital committee doing monthly deep dives on MetroLink, BusConnects and DART+, just to ensure we have a laser-like focus on what we are doing, as I mentioned in respect of London. However, I would not want to generalise and say this country is really good at it or not, because this cannot be done with any country.

Deputy Duncan Smith

That is my view also. We have done some really good things and have done other things that have given rise to challenges. We would like to see more big infrastructure projects started and delivered. That is probably the challenge for any country. I thank Mr. Strachan, and I thank the Chair for his indulgence on the time.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I thank Mr. Strachan and wish him the best of luck in his role. I want to pick up on the challenge ahead of him.

The newspapers reported yesterday on the latest census figures setting out modes of travel to work in Ireland. Mr. Strachan is probably aware of these. They indicate that 63% travel by car,10% walk, 7% cycle, 3% use rail, heavy or light, and 6% travel by bus.

A lot of it reflected public transport penetration. In rural counties, public transport provision is not of a degree that allows people to live their lives depending on it. There are anomalies. These may or may not be unique to Ireland. In the city of Galway, 70% commute to work by car. That is a big urban centre so there is something happening there.

I will note a couple of things. Along with the climate crisis, the issue of equity in access to public transport is also fundamental. I hope we are getting our heads around that. What is Mr. Strachan's perspective on the policies to deliver that modal shift? I have heard criticism of the NTA and its evolution relating to its geographical remit but also to its remit in terms of modes, particularly rail. There is a criticism there. You can follow it through and it makes sense, particularly if you are in an area that is not covered by rail. The NTA and Irish transport policy have a blind spot with regard to the opportunities presented by rail, both heavy and light. Is that a fair criticism? What is Mr. Strachan's sense of the potential opportunity as regards rail? I will make the case for the Navan rail line, as I always so. It goes through my constituency and serves Dunshaughlin. In my opinion, it is game-changing infrastructure. Last week, Bus Éireann and Mr. Strachan's colleagues came before us to talk about the difficulties with the bus service. We know there are pinch points and difficulties in that system. Will Mr. Strachan address rail as a mode and investment in it?

On the issue of projects out to 2030, Mr. Strachan has spoken about major projects. However, there is a massive funding gap in the national development plan out to 2030 and beyond. This relates to my own project. What is Mr. Strachan's perspective on the national development plan as it stands and on inflation? He mentioned that issue. We had TII before the committee before us to discuss procurement. It is good that Mr. Strachan has experience in that regard. It is about managing projects efficiently and delivering them on time and on budget. We have a long list of projects in this State and a limited amount of funding. Will Mr. Strachan discuss the NDP review and how inflation has impacted the plan? I accept that there are limits on how far we can go but what needs to happen to deliver on something significant between now and 2030?

Mr. Peter Strachan

I absolutely agree on the number using public transport versus private transport, if I can call it that. We would not be surprised to see that. I am not surprised to see those numbers because they mirror the modal split in many other countries around the world. We should not think Ireland is different in that respect because it is not.

The Deputy is absolutely right about provision. With regard to public transport, it is glib to say "build it and they will come" but there is a ring of truth to that, particularly when you go into areas where there is a scarcity of public transport offering. In one of my previous statements, I said that, as the NTA, we need to make sure we are balancing the profile of provision and not just concentrating on areas where we get big upticks in business-cost ratios because there are big centres of population and big opportunities to get a return on the business case and the spend. We have to also have a mind to social inclusion and equity across the rest of the country. That is what excites me about this being a national role and not just a role focused on a geographical area like Dublin or another city.

Rail is interesting. I say this as predominantly a career railwayman, having started in heavy rail and then branched out into different modes. It is breathtakingly expensive as a mode. If we look at the revenue per subsidy, fare box or whatever and the profile of rail in comparison with bus transport, we see that nowhere in the world have we ever really cracked the question of efficiency or how to run a rail service that is the leanest and meanest it could possibly be. I do not think this country is any different. There are legacy working practices and a whole bunch of other things we could probably discuss for another two or three hours that explain why rail is disproportionately more expensive. As I have said, it is no different in the rest of the world. Where there is a good case to be made for rail expansion - DART+ is a good example - we will continue to make those cases. However, going into resurrecting previously closed rail lines or looking at greenfield rail propositions is a very expensive thing to do and, with limited resources in the fiscal envelope, I am not sure we should convince ourselves that we can make a return on that. I will just give the Deputy that as a strategic piece.

The funding envelope is difficult, is it not? We are no different from anywhere else in the world, are we? I have just come from a board meeting in Cardiff as part of my Transport for Wales responsibilities and, earlier this week, I was in London as part of my Transport for London responsibilities and there is no money to do any of these things in those areas. We are no different. As an authority, we have to make a compelling business case to the Department of Transport and the wider Government that this is a sensible thing to spend our money on as a State in comparison with all of the other competing demands in the areas of education, health and so on because of the social and economic benefits of transport. We have to value that wider benefit stream and not just transport per se. That is what we have to do. Our responsibility as the NTA and the delivery responsibility of bodies such as TII is to make sure that, when that money is allocated, it is spent wisely and effectively to bring projects in on time and on budget. That is the quid pro quo. These things will always cost a lot of money. There is no doubt about that. We have seen it elsewhere. It is about asking where it fits in the country's overall priorities.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

On Mr. Strachan's point regarding rail-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Deputy's time is up but he may keep going. This will be his last question.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

From Mr. Strachan's experience over recent years, has the thinking around assessment developed and evolved? I refer to aligning cost-benefit analyses with climate action. Surely, the world has changed, although it may not have changed as much as I might like. In the past, these decisions largely rested on the time saved and so on but are issues like embedded carbon and life-cycle carbon now a factor? Does that make rail any more attractive?

Mr. Peter Strachan

Yes, provided it is the right type of rail, by which I mean sustainably delivered rail. As a transport professional, I always get excited about people making the comparison between the carbon take of transport and the carbon take of public transport because, as we know, the carbon take of transport, given emissions from road vehicles and particularly private cars, is an enormous challenge for every country and this one is no different. From a narrow point of view, it is much better to get people out of their cars, even into a diesel-powered bus or train, because that is better in overall terms. However, that only goes partway to solving the climate problem.

Therefore, what we need to do, and are doing, as transport providers, is look at battery operation, electrification of fleets and innovative ways of providing dual-power or tri-power modes between battery, diesel-restricted and overhead electrification. That is where rail really starts to play its part. We can see that coming in across different parts of Europe in particular, where the opportunities are being taken not to go wholesale for overhead electrification, as we might have done 20 years ago, but to say the gap can be filled with a battery tri-mode vehicle as opposed to just going with wires, wires and more wires, which is prohibitively expensive. Therefore, with the value and the benefit realisation, we get that extra dimension of carbon reduction from rail that we possibly did not value before.

Deputy Steven Matthews

I apologise for being late. I heard most of Deputy O'Rourke's contribution so I will not repeat his questions. I want to ask about the metropolitan area transport studies, like LSMATS or the Cork metropolitan area transport study. They are not statutory documents in the same way the greater Dublin area transport strategy is a statutory document. Would it be beneficial, or are there moves, to put those important transport strategies on a statutory footing?

Mr. Peter Strachan

I agree. However, I am not sure it would make for a particular shift in terms of the way the NTA and its board look at them. We recognise that whether it is statutory or non-statutory, it is an important part of the NTA’s activity and function. I am going to sound a bit like a cracked record this afternoon, but I would say that we realise this is countrywide. There is a bit of a giveaway in the title in that it is the National Transport Authority, not the Dublin transport authority.

Deputy Steven Matthews

Let me rephrase the question or the direction I want to go. If it is a statutory document, people are obliged to comply with it in terms of planning and other development, whereas if a document is non-statutory, it is something that may need to be considered but not necessarily adhered to. With regard to Cork and Limerick, which are growing and are two cities with great potential, Mr. Strachan may have mentioned the Cork metropolitan rail improvements that are going ahead there and there is great opportunity for Limerick, as well as the work in Galway. If those documents were on a statutory footing, surely they would then have to be more in compliance with planning matters and, therefore, we would have a better coalescence between planning and transport, which has always been an issue.

Mr. Peter Strachan

If that then encourages a greater and more accelerated process in terms of some of the planning activity, that could potentially be a good thing. I am not going to sit here on a Wednesday afternoon and opine as to whether it should be statutory or non-statutory, but I understand the point the Deputy is making. What I wanted to do was, hopefully, give some reassurance that even though they may not be on a statutory footing, that does not mean we are not interested in them as the board of the NTA.

Deputy Steven Matthews

Again, decision-makers have to comply with it when it is statutory but when it is not, it can be guidance that they consider and then decide not to do. In my view, putting transport strategies on a statutory footing, particularly for those major cities, is a sensible measure, and then to make sure they align with the objectives set out in the development plans.

I want to ask about rail and, in particular, the remit the NTA has over regional rail services for Cork, Limerick, Galway and so on. Is it the same remit that the NTA has in those areas that it has in the greater Dublin area?

Mr. Peter Strachan

The NTA's remit covers the whole of the country and as far as we are concerned, Irish Rail is a delivery partner of ours, wherever it is operating in the State. For example, for the specification of services, the timetables that we want to run and the potential enhancements that we want to make, all of that comes under the remit of the NTA. I am not drawing a distinction one way or the other.

Deputy Steven Matthews

That is good to hear. To be honest, I have never heard so many people talking about investing in public transport as I have in the last three years or so many talking about improving rail services and bus services, including rural bus services, such as the Connecting Ireland services that have been incredibly successful in my constituency. I would love to see more of them but I am realistic enough to know that in transport in this country, we have probably under-invested and have not been ambitious enough for the last 40 or 50 years, when we instead concentrated on the car. To expect the transport agencies and transport providers to suddenly spring to life with this massive demand creates problems.

One area where we have under-invested is in regard to the electrification of rail systems. Mr. Strachan spoke about decarbonisation and I know the DART+ project is in various different phases. In terms of the electrification of lines from, say, Dublin to Cork or Dublin to Belfast, is that something the NTA is actively researching and looking at? There is a type of technology called discontinuous overhead electrification, where trains run for 60 km and are charged for 60 km. Mr. Strachan will be aware of it. Is it a runner? Is it something that we could design in such a way that the electrified section is in the midlands, and we could have a commuter line running up and down on it and the main lines running through it. Is that on the NTA agenda?

Mr. Peter Strachan

We acknowledge the overall Government rail strategy and have contributed a few comments to that, given it is very much a higher-level, strategic approach for the country. The Deputy is right. To go back to a previous point, 15 years ago or even ten years ago, we would have said that the way to decarbonise was to put wires up everywhere, be that on a 1,500 DC or a 25 KV system. Now, we are much more in the space of thinking innovatively around what we can do and where we can extend the reach of battery traction or discontinuous electrification, to which the Deputy referred. In the next four to five years, we will see many good examples, particularly in mainland Europe, where all of the bugs in those systems have been proven and dispensed with. I would draw the committee's attention to the Bordeaux tram, which was world-leading in terms of being a continually free tram product about 15 years ago. Everybody looked at that and said, “When they have made that work in Bordeaux, we will think about getting some ourselves.” I think we are at that point in terms of discontinuous and tri-mode. There are still quite a lot of bugs to get out of the system in certain places, but we are on the cusp of proof of concept. Many of the rolling stock manufacturers and infrastructure providers would tell us we are there right now, but I would like a bit more time before we say that is what we should do. Are we alive to that? Very much so.

Deputy Steven Matthews

There could be cost savings as technologies evolve. There is a suggestion that a continually free system, especially in those architecturally sensitive areas, is a winner.

I will move on to the issue of freight, if I am okay for time.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I ask the Deputy to be brief. I will let him back in again.

Deputy Steven Matthews

Thank you. With regard to the delivery of freight by rail, is that just for Irish Rail?

Mr. Peter Strachan

There is a “No, but” to that. We have been asked by the Department to look at the overall sponsorship of the Foynes line reinstatement, so that is the NTA touching freight but very specifically to supervise a big project to reinstate, rather than looking at the policy and the overall implications of that.

Deputy Steven Matthews

I may have some follow-up questions. Thank you.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We talked about the priorities and ambitions. Mr. Strachan might comment on where he sees the biggest challenges. Although he has probably addressed them somewhat, the issue of bus drivers and mechanics is becoming quite a big problem.

Please touch on airport services, because the larger a modal shift where we can get away from people driving their cars to the airport, the better. We can argue about whether they should be going to the airport at all and I am sure Deputy Matthews would have concerns about people flying, full stop. If people are going to fly, the least carbon friendly way of getting to the airport is by car. I think that many more people would love to be able to travel to the airport by bus services, if they were available. In many places, including in parts of Dublin city, they are not available, particularly priority services that can use bus lanes and the Dublin Port Tunnel.

The NTA is not just the public service obligation, PSO, provider. It actually licenses all the transport services, Aircoach, CityLink, Expressway and so on.

We touched on the issue of congestion with the operators. I had not heard of the avoid-shift-improve strategy and I quite like that. As somebody who cycled here this morning, it would be very remiss of me not to mention cycling. What does Mr. Strachan see as the NTA's role for cycling? Almost every bike used means a car is taken off the road, although it may mean some passengers being shifted off the Luas. As motorists, we can be frustrated by cyclists flying past us when we are sitting in traffic but more bikes mean fewer cars. It is important that we do not just become obsessed with very expensive projects, which are very necessary. We also need to see that there is a huge win available if we can take school children out of cars, not just for their health or for climate emissions, but also because they can get to and from school with a level of independence. This would reduce by hundreds the number of cars going to schools twice a day, congesting the roads. We all know how much lighter traffic is when schools are on holidays.

I ask Mr. Strachan to touch on the emphasis on modal shift. The N11 quality bus corridor, QBC, was probably one of the cheapest projects. I was a local authority member for a very long stretch of that. I remember the huge furore at the time about the idea of taking a car lane out of parts of south Dublin referred to in newspapers as the "leafy suburbs". Once people saw how efficient the bus was those very people who were complaining actually got on the bus. They realised that it was much faster than sitting in a car. Too many of our journeys are actually not that much quicker by bus than by car. That is where the tipping point is, in convincing people to not use their car. If it is 20 minutes in a car and 18 minutes on a bus, most people will probably take the car, particularly if they have free parking at their destination. If it is an hour in the car and only 20 minutes on the bus or the Luas then people will decide to take the public transport because it makes sense. That is the biggest job of the NTA, the modal shift to encourage people in this direction. Of course there are people who will not have the opportunity, but where there are good services, people use them. In the case of the Luas there was nothing on that corridor for 40 or 50 years since it was closed in 1959. I remember being at the launch of the Luas. It sucked passengers in from everywhere. People who would never have dreamt of getting public transport were willing to walk 12 or 15 minutes to get to the station. They did not know or care about the timetable because they knew there would be another tram along in a few minutes.

Cycling is not just good for people's health, it also helps in reducing emissions and congestion and improving journey times for people on public transport. Many people who make the shift find it beneficial. I would say I cycle in here about 85% of the time. When I return to the car it can be very frustrating. Movement is very slow in the city centre and even more so in the suburbs at certain times of day. I ask Mr. Strachan to touch on those points.

Mr. Peter Strachan

The Vice Chair's latter comments about cycling and getting people out of cars have reversed the order of the question. The first question was on what was the biggest challenge. The biggest challenge for the NTA is to achieve that tipping point of modal shift, to make people think that public transport is a first choice and not a choice of last resort.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Yes, and cycling as well, which is under your remit, in terms of cycle lanes and so on.

Mr. Peter Strachan

I use public transport as a shorthand for public, active and sustainable, all that good stuff. I entirely agree with that. That is our biggest challenge as an authority. Looking after the transport for the country is about encouraging that modal shift into more sustainable and more active forms of transport.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The more people use those services, the more frequent the service can be made, which leads to a better service. The opposite applies as well. Take the example of low-density housing. I remember being in by-elections in areas not far from Dublin, where houses were being built, one or five to the acre, and then demands were being made for a very good bus service, but there was very few people in the area. I could understand their frustration, but the reason there is a very good service in London or Paris is because the density is so high.

Mr. Peter Strachan

That is the overall ambition we are looking towards. We need to ensure that we do the best we can within the fiscal envelope we have. We want to be strong advocates for a big, game changing projects. The really big, across-Ireland projects are important. We need to put on the map some really big and chunky projects to demonstrate that we are serious.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Like MetroLink and Dart+.

Mr. Peter Strachan

Yes, MetroLink, Dart+ and BusConnects. I go back to what I said earlier, on the face of it, BusConnects looks like a series of modest interventions. However, when it is all joined up, it is a game changer

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The N 11 QBC was a game changer.

Mr. Peter Strachan

Yes, it was a game changer. To the point about cycling, when we are making those interventions it should not just be about buses. BusConnects is a bit of a misnomer, because it also includes considering what else we can do with the road space available to us to make cycling as a form of active travel as safe and attractive as possible. I use the word "safe" deliberately because that is what puts people off cycling the most. They are frightened of not being safe on the road.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is fear of the unknown as well.

Mr. Peter Strachan

Yes.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I was that person a while ago.

Mr. Peter Strachan

Yes, exactly. The Vice Chair is a very good example. When somebody has been converted to something they become advocates for it. An interesting statistic was published today in London which says that over the last 12 months interventions to make cycling safer for people have led to a 6% increase in people cycling. That does not sound like very much, but my goodness me, that is a big shift

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

In a city the size of London, that is a lot of people

Mr. Peter Strachan

Yes, in a city the size of London it is a big shift. This is the sort of ambition we should have here.

On airport services, we all know that one of the challenges with airports is that they make a lot of money from car parking. Therefore, they tend to be a little bit reluctant to do the right thing.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I made that very point to management of Dublin Airport before.

Mr. Peter Strachan

I am not singling Dublin Airport out. It is the way of the world. That is why when one goes to Edinburgh it costs disproportionately more to go to the airport by tram than it does to travel around the whole of the rest of the network. That is a defence mechanism by the airport against parking charges. We need to understand the economic landscape we are playing in and use our influence appropriately.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

To be fair, management at Dublin Airport has said that it is trying its best to get as many bus services as possible. However, that is also your role to licence more people and put pressure on them to deliver those services.

Mr. Peter Strachan

Yes, exactly. When that is outside the PSO remit we have fewer powers of specification and direction in the licensing piece that we do in the PSO piece. To go back to what we were saying before, Dublin is one of the few cities around the world that has not got something that looks like-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is probably one of the few capital cities. I can think of many airports that do not have rail lines, but not too many capital cities.

Mr. Peter Strachan

Yes, but not too many capital cities of this standing. We are in agreement on that but I wanted to be clear on the limitations of our ability to do that

I keep coming back to BusConnects, but it is a really good example of dealing with congestion in the city. One of the things I notice coming frequently to the city in this incarnation, in comparison to what I was a few years ago, is how much more congested the city has become.

The grid-type layout of the city does not make it conducive unless we make BusConnects-type interventions. There is always cross movement of who gets priority. BusConnects is the way to ensure congestion is eased by making public transport, particularly bus, more attractive to car users and for that reason, they will leave the car at home.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Mr. Strachan does not need to comment now but more night buses would solve some of the taxi problems. Last week, we discussed this with the NTA chief executive and others. A 24-hour Luas is not possible because some time is needed for maintenance of the track. There are areas that would not necessarily have brilliant bus services during the day but at night operate fantastically good services, connecting places that would be highly congested during the day. I have in mind a route to my area that connects universities with the city centre and Sandyford, which the Luas covers during the day. However, many people work at night and they are all in their cars. For example, people who work in the Beacon Hospital and start at 6 a.m. cannot use public transport because it is not available. More needs to be done. Lots of people also work in the night-time economy. They are not paid terribly well and spend big chunks of their wages on getting taxis home. Night buses need to be looked at. I thank Mr. Strachan for everything he is doing.

Deputy Martin Kenny

The point I was coming to in my previous contribution was how to get the balance right between the fares charged and number of people travelling. It brings us back to people living in sparsely populated, spread-out rural areas where it is much more difficult to provide an adequate service because they do not have the numbers using the service. The big issue for me, coming from the west, is the western rail corridor and related opportunities. That brings us to TEN-T and the possibility of funding. Mr. Strachan mentioned the envelope the Exchequer has and that we have an obligation to spend it wisely. However, we also have an obligation to future generations because rail infrastructure lasts a long time - it has been there since Victorian times. It is not a short-term investment but a very long-term investment that we have to look at over the long term. I would like to hear Mr. Strachan's views on that. I accept that he told us that rail, depending on the type, is expensive from the perspective of the amount of subsidy it requires. However, from the perspective of the longevity of the investment and the return on it, it requires deeper consideration.

Mr. Peter Strachan

That is absolutely right. Provided we can all get our heads around the depreciation and amortisation curves in rail, the asset you create, as the Deputy rightly observed, has a potentially long life. Therefore, the business case in some instances can be more attractive by doing that. However, if overall funds are not available, it is difficult to make that case in the first place. That is why something like piggybacking - if I may call it that - on a potential TEN-T source of funding can be looked at but should not be grabbed at all costs. There is always a risk, if something comes in from another funding partner, of thinking we have that money now and we need to spend it. It makes the cases potentially stronger if those funds are available. Let us not run off and do a project just because we have the funding.

Deputy Martin Kenny

The edge we have, in my understanding, is that there is enhanced funding if you go with electrification and moving freight. There are opportunities in that regard that need to be looked at in the context of the longevity of the investment. I am not saying just because funding is available, we should build railways everywhere. It clearly must be planned and done correctly. However, if the opportunity is there, we should not let it pass.

Mr. Peter Strachan

I agree. To go back to the point around fares, in my experience, a modern, potentially stored-value EMV smart card contactless digital fare and ticketing solution can allow for easier differential pricing. The price will essentially be a matter for Government and not necessarily for the NTA. The vehicle by which that price differentiation can be delivered is much more flexible with a modern ticketing platform than with some of the old-fashioned systems we have currently.

Deputy Martin Kenny

To return to the issue of competition for road space between bus lanes, cycle lanes, etc., a lot of that type of work is under way in parts of Dublin. I understand there are places where the road is 9 m wide and 3 m are required for the cycle lane and 3 m are required for each lane of traffic. The new buses delivered are 2.95 metres wide, which does not leave a lot of space. Has there been a full assessment in that respect? The older buses were slightly narrower but a full assessment for future-proofing is needed.

Mr. Peter Strachan

A strong and encouraging area of expertise the NTA has in-house and with its consultant partners is the ability to design road space and make sure we are at 2023 levels of understanding of best practice. The board was taken through the cycling policy and strategy document at either its second or third most recent meeting. I was quite encouraged because the way in which we deploy road space was up there in terms of world best practice. While we could get a tape measure and measure the thing - the Deputy might tempt me to do that - I am assured by the expertise we have in-house that we are capable of getting that right, which is important.

Deputy Steven Matthews

I will continue on from Deputy Kenny's point about the western rail corridor and the question I finished on about freight. Having a west coast line running south to Rosslare and connecting to Europe is a great opportunity, as is the Limerick to Foynes freight line. I read an article in The Irish Times on the opportunity to include that line in the trans-European network, which could make it a little easier to access funding. I take Mr. Strachan's point that if everything is a priority, nothing is. We have to focus on where we will get the best return for our money, serving the largest number of people.

We heard about constraints on national development plan funding, etc. The communication of what we are trying to do in transport is important. Any time Anne Graham and Hugh Creegan from the NTA are at the committee, they know their stuff and are able to answer every question. That is a great asset for the NTA. They are always willing to engage with this committee and local authorities. In my time as a councillor, the NTA would meet us, which is important. I would like to see that continue. The public consultation on BusConnects was excellent. It was a long public consultation. When the first draft came out, there was an admission that the NTA had got some things wrong and it would go back and have another look. There was good engagement. There is a sense now that most people are fairly satisfied with what is coming out. Within one or two years of the service operating, and it is operating well, people forget what they had previously and adapt to the new one.

On large-scale infrastructure projects, I think we all sense the frustration with how long a project can take from the concept to the commissioning stage. In Mr. Strachan's experience overseas in the UK and Australia, etc., does he consider the way we here go about large-scale public infrastructure projects to be unnecessarily slow? We nearly need to get every stage absolutely right before someone will make the decision to move to the next stage.

I understand that somebody has taken responsibility for a very large investment but no matter what the project is, there is always a sense of chopping and changing as they proceed. Do we need to get it 100% right at every stage or can we rely on the credibility and experience of the project managers and people who are developing the project? How does Mr. Strachan compare Ireland with his experiences overseas?

Mr. Peter Strachan

The Deputy's question is a bit like a previous question about whether we are good at project or not. "Yes" and "Yes" are the answers to both questions.

Could we build these things quicker? Yes. Let us consider certain other countries around the world, which I will not name because that would come back and bite me in the proverbial. While "cavalier" is probably too strong a word, there are places where there is a more direct and directional attitude to stakeholder engagement and planning and all of those things that I personally believe we must be respectful of. If we are not respectful of them, the project will take even longer because people will take judicial routes to have matters reviewed, get in the way and so on. I am not a massive advocate of saying we should just chuck all of the planning legislation out of the window, not bother with stakeholder consultation and instead just build it because it is the right thing to do and we know we are right. Sometimes a bit of arrogance comes through with that approach. We need to be very clear about what it is that we are specifying. We need to do all the good planning, by which I mean planning in the round, not just planning on the ground, in other words, the planning of the service specification, the procurement process and the execution and delivery fees. We need to get all that right upfront so we are not then chopping and changing through the piece. In my experience, the worst thing that can be done in any project, be it a rolling a stock order, a bus order or an infrastructure project, is to say you did not want something this way around but another way around or that it would not be a really good idea to build an intermediate station at this point or a spur over to that point because that is what is now needed. Those are the things that cause delay and, most important, cost changes and overruns, which goes back to what we said about fiscal constraints.

I am not shying away from the fact that in the big projects we do the groundwork now to make sure we have got it right for the future. Then when we proceed, we execute swiftly and professionally and to the specification that we first thought.

Deputy Steven Matthews

I agree with Mr. Strachan. Comparisons are often made with the cost at which countries such as China are able to build high-speed rail. I am not entirely sure what the public participation is in the planning process in China or if it is the same as it is in our planning process. I am sure there are different scenarios in the planning system but public engagement is needed and has to be respected. The public, the people who live in an area, often have the best local knowledge and it is important to tap into that knowledge when doing a project. Nevertheless, I sense considerable frustration that these projects seem to take a long time. The delay can often be political, when we have a change of Government and changing priorities and then another change in Government. This means priorities are tapped around the whole time. With our national planning framework and national development plan, we have tried to take that political aspect out of the process by saying these are the projects that will be built.

Given the large-scale infrastructure transport projects Mr. Strachan has worked on across the world, he considers that, as regards how well we do them, the speed at which we do them and the manner in which we design and fund them, Ireland competes and is comparable to anything out there.

Mr. Peter Strachan

We might not be in a gold medal position but we are certainly not in a relegation position.

Deputy Steven Matthews

Hopefully, we are getting better as well.

Mr. Peter Strachan

On the podium.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I will ask some questions and then we will conclude because I am conscious Mr. Strachan has to make his way home. Dublin Bus used to have an app and Transport for Ireland now has the TFI Live app. I am not sure the TFI Live app is as intuitively wonderful as it might be. That is not a criticism because I know these things take time. There are about 30 stops on the route to the airport and it is hard to figure out which one you want. I hope there is a better way.

I am not sure we addressed staff shortages in the transport sector. How many staff work in the NTA? I do not believe anyone has ever asked that question. I know Mr. Strachan's allowance because I can google it and find it, but maybe Mr. Strachan will let us and the people watching this meeting what it is. To be fair, with all of Mr. Strachan's experience, if he was billing all the value the NTA and the State are getting, he could probably bill it in a week. I thank him for what he is doing based on all his other roles and qualifications. The State is getting great value for his expertise.

I ask Mr. Strachan to address staff shortages, staff numbers in the NTA, the app, his allowance and how he has found the transport user action group interaction so far. I know the group is quite new.

Mr. Peter Strachan

I will first address the transport staff shortages. This is not a challenge unique to Ireland, particularly as it relates to bus drivers and mechanics. That technical workforce, if I can call it that, is a particular challenge in many parts of Europe now. Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann are particularly challenged by those. I have discussed those issues with the chair and chief executive of Dublin Bus, with whom we met at one of our recent board meetings. They are very alive to that issue. As they said at the committee's meeting last week, they are looking at some innovative strategies for making sure they have that skill shortage under control. Let us not think that we-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

There is a shortage of drivers and, more so, mechanics.

Mr. Peter Strachan

Yes, mechanics even more so. The challenge with mechanics is that as we move to decarbonisation and an electric fleet, a different type of skill set is required, as well as the traditional mechanic. Billy Hann in Dublin Bus is absolutely on that and the company is doing what it can to make sure it has the staff.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is for the NTA to tell the Government and this committee that we need to do more apprenticeship programmes and provide more incentives to get people to consider working in the transport industry. It is not exclusive to the public transport industry. It also affects haulage and freight which also need such skills. That needs to be on the NTA radar because even if it had as much money as it wanted, nothing will happen if there are not enough drivers.

How many staff does the NTA have?

Mr. Peter Strachan

Permanent staff numbers are just north of 260 currently. They are supplemented by a number of bought-in resources on specific projects. We flex that.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Those would be BusConnects and various others.

Mr. Peter Strachan

That is right. The NTA is not a big organisation in comparison with our delivery partners in Bus Éireann and so on. It is a reasonable size for what we are trying to do, while respecting-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

While this is not an issue for today, the committee would like to know what the different areas are and what people are doing. Are the 260 people all at a management or administrative level? It would help us to understand if we were told how many of them are dealing with PSO transport, licensing, the management of active travel projects and so on. That is probably a question for Anne Graham.

Mr. Peter Strachan

I am very happy to get the executive to write to the committee, with its agreement, to explain how we break that down.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is just for us to understand that. With regard to the app, perhaps Mr. Strachan could practise using it himself. He can refer to his allowance if he likes. The other query I had was on the user group.

Mr. Peter Strachan

We are in the early stages of the transport users group. The board has said that one of the things we need to do more of is engage with service users. We are looking at an opportunity early in 2024, probably in the first quarter, to have a joint discussion with the user group and the board to make sure we are not using only our own experience of the transport system but see it through the eyes and ears of real users, and through the committee as well.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That is where we all come into this. By virtue of where I live, I have a more urban experience and by virtue of where Deputy Kenny is based, he has a more rural experience. This committee is all about to trying to bring different perspectives. I am sure if I lived where Deputy Kenny lived, I would not recommend cycling the distances he has to travel. Equally, if he lived where I live, he might realise that people can move around a lot faster on a bike than they can in a car much of the time, certainly at peak time.

I thank Mr. Strachan for what he has done. He does not need to refer to his allowance but I think it is great value, in terms of what he is getting for what he does. I wish him well. Is his term a five-year one, from April?

Mr. Peter Strachan

From April.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

April 2023 to April 2028. We may or may not see him again because once we have done this bit, we do not generally tend to see the chairperson designate or the chairpersons after that. It is generally the chief executive and the operational team.

I thank Mr. Strachan and all the members who participated today.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.20 p.m. sine die.