Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 Nov 2022

Vol. 290 No. 7

Nithe i dtosach suíonna - Commencement Matters

Health Services

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan. I have spoken with the Minister for Health this morning and I appreciate that he is before the Oireachtas Select Committee on Health to discuss the Estimates. In recent days I have received an awful lot of emails relevant to the matter I am raising and I am grateful to the Cathaoirleach for choosing it for discussion. It is the provision of community neurorehabilitation teams.

If we go back to the 2019 implementation framework on a national strategy and policy for the provision of neurorehabilitation services in Ireland, integral to it is the provision of inpatient and community-based neurorehabilitation services. To put everyday language on this, neurorehabilitation is designed for people with diseases, injuries and disorders of the nervous system. These can be acquired injuries, for instance, arising from stroke or an acquired brain injury. It can also be for people with multiple sclerosis or Parkinson's disease.

We can see that having a team keeps people at home for as long as possible if they have a progressive disease or illness that will bring them to being less able. Having a community team is essential for this purpose. When people are in hospital following a stroke or because of an acquired brain injury, the community team is the link that enables them to come home. In every way it makes much more sense to have community neurorehabilitation teams.

I am specifically asking about community healthcare organisation, CHO, 7 because it is my area. It includes the constituency of Dublin South-Central. Part of the implementation framework was to have a team in every CHO district throughout the country. My understanding, on which I seek clarification from the Minister of State, is that only two of the nine teams have been delivered. I would value an update on this. We must ensure we have a plan or a timeline.

What are the impediments stopping this from happening? It is important. Having the teams in place makes sense. One of the people who wrote to me made the point that for every €1 spent on these teams, the health service saves €11. The evident need for beds in hospitals is all the more reason to have a community-based service that provides supports in a person's home. That is important.

As regards the national strategy, I refer to recent advocacy and presentations relating to having neurological nurses at the likes of St. James's Hospital. There was only one such nurse there at one stage. The situation elsewhere may be similar. The inpatient service is not being provided to the extent required and neither is the community-based service and, as a consequence of that, people are spending far longer in hospital than required or are going into hospital earlier than necessary. Those people could be supported in the familiar surroundings of their own homes. In cases involving an impediment that may be growing, as may arise with multiple sclerosis, and the fears and everything else that come with that, having that support in one's own home is essential. I look forward to hearing what the Minister of State has to say.

Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy Malcolm Noonan)

I thank the Senator for raising this issue. I know MS Ireland has been campaigning on it for a long time. I apologise for the misprint in the date on the written version of my reply that has been circulated.

The implementation framework for the neurorehabilitation strategy was launched in February 2019. It provides guidance for the development of specialist neurorehabilitation services across the continuum of care - from acute to post-acute and community services. Neurorehabilitation services play a critical role in supporting recovery of those with neurological conditions or maximising their ability, or both.

The HSE is aware from its mapping exercises that there is a dearth of neurorehabilitation services at both inpatient and community levels. The plan to address this is described within the implementation framework, referenced by the Senator, for the neurorehabilitation strategy. It outlines a ten-step approach that will see each CHO introducing a local implementation team to oversee and guide the implementation process. It also describes a managed clinical rehabilitation network demonstrator project which is currently progressing through the development of post-acute and community neurorehabilitation services across CHO 6 and CHO 7. The funding provides for five whole-time equivalents in each team, consisting of senior physiotherapist, senior occupational therapist, senior speech and language therapist, senior clinical psychology and administrative staff. The introduction of the first managed clinical rehabilitation network is hoped to be an exemplar for the national roll-out of the neurorehabilitation strategy.

The Senator's question relates to CHO 7 specifically. As outlined, it is one of the two areas included in the demonstrator project. The HSE advises that it is currently working on a governance model for this team and expects to commence recruitment immediately. I am also informed by the HSE that a location for the community neurorehabilitation team has been agreed in CHO 7. This team will be based at Peamount Healthcare.

I assure the Senator that the Minister of State with responsibility for disabilities is totally committed to the implementation of the neurorehabilitation strategy and is very aware of its importance for people with neurological conditions. The Senator has spoken to the Minister for Health and he has given her assurances similar to those put forward in this reply. It is welcome news that we are making progress in this regard.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

I thank the Minister of State. My understanding of the implementation model was that CHO 6 and CHO 7 would be the locations for the two demonstrator projects. To clarify, nothing is in place as yet but those CHO areas will be the locations for the first demonstrator projects. That is my understanding, based on the reply of the Minister of State. Are there recruitment issues? Is there a shortage of candidates for recruitment to the five disciplines required for the teams? There is a chronic shortage of staff in the child services in CHO 7. The disability teams are at less than 30% staffing. Is that an impediment to progress in this context? Speech and language therapists are required for these teams and they are also required in children's disability services. Is there an impediment in the context of recruitment? Is there a timeline for when this will be delivered?

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

I reiterate that the Government remains committed to implementation of the neurorehabilitation strategy and the current demonstrator project for CHOs in CHO 6 and CHO 7. Delivering on this commitment, additional funding was provided in budget 2023 for neurorehabilitation. Funding will provide for the continued roll-out of the strategy in two more CHO areas. The exact location of these two teams is currently being considered by the HSE and a final decision will be made having regard to a range of factors. In addition, new development funding was secured for the recruitment of 23 whole-time equivalent neurology nurses. These positions will be based in neurology hospitals across the country and will provide care and support for people across a range of neurological conditions.

The Senator asked several supplementary questions. If it is okay, I will ask the Department to respond to her on them. There are recruitment constraints in the context of this issue, as is the case right across the health services. Those challenges notwithstanding, the intention is to move on these demonstrator projects as soon as possible. As regards specific timelines, I will ask the Department to revert to the Senator with a more detailed response.

Hospital Services

Senator Shane Cassells

Colm O'Rourke, one of the legendary figures of Gaelic games, was recently appointed manager of the Meath senior football team. It is a role he has long coveted and his appointment has enthused Meath fans with the hope of a return to glory. I invite the Minister of State to imagine that, as Colm sets off on this journey, the GAA told him he can be Meath manager and have the title and the prestige but it is not going to allow him to have any footballers whatsoever. It might let him have a few farm animals - a few donkeys or goats to put in the full-forward line - but that is it, and he should go off and win the All-Ireland. I ask the Minister of State to hold that thought.

Across the road from the school of which Colm is principal is Navan hospital, which, as of this morning, still has an operational emergency department. However, following a letter from the HSE on Monday, there is a plan - irony of ironies, this involves a former Meath football colleague of Colm's, Gerry McEntee - under which the HSE has directed that the ambulance service will now bypass Navan hospital in the case of all patients bar, in the words of its report, elderly persons who fall off a chair and have no respiratory problems. A bit like the job of the manager of the Meath football team, the hospital can have its emergency department and the neon light flashing above the door to signal that it is open but it cannot have any patients.

I am a patient man but my patience with those who purport to run the health service in the name of the people of Meath is over. We discussed this issue in the Chamber in June. In the intervening six months, those running the health service have done nothing to build capacity at Drogheda hospital to facilitate their marvellous plan. They simply leak documents and minutes of meetings and spin lines about how people will die if they do not get their way. They are bullies. What will happen if they get their way? Where will the people of Navan and the rest of County Meath go? Are they going to implement a plan like the one put in place at Dublin Airport during summer and put up tents at Drogheda hospital so that people from Navan can be triaged out in the car park? That is where we are heading. Drogheda hospital does not have the capacity required. I have spoken to the people at the hospital. They do not have the capacity.

The HSE has pulled this trick once before, when it closed the emergency department at Dundalk hospital. It took it three years to get things right in Drogheda afterwards, with the influx of people from Dundalk and the surrounding area down to Drogheda. The HSE implements a plan with no resources or backup, and who suffers? It is the ordinary people, the people in whose name the HSE purports to run a health service. My patience with the HSE has gone. It does not represent the best interests of ordinary people.

It represents the best interests of consultants and medical practitioners. The stroke unit it has closed this week hurts people; it does not help people. I want to hear from the Department of Health, which is the boss of the HSE, in case it has forgotten that with its leaked memos, how it proposes to actually implement this marvellous plan.

Acting Chairperson (Senator Mary Seery Kearney)

Before I call on the Minister of State, I welcome the students from Rockbrook Park School and Deputy Francis Noel Duffy to the Seanad. They get to see it at its finest this morning as the Minister of State responds to the Senator's impassioned pleas on this matter.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

They certainly picked a good time to come in. It is great to see such a good contribution in the Seanad Chamber. The students are very welcome and I thank Deputy Duffy for bringing them here.

I am taking this question on behalf of the Minister for Health. It might have been preferable to use a hurling analogy, being a Kilkenny man, but it is okay; I will accept the football parlance. I thank Senator Cassells for raising the matter of the ambulance bypass protocols at Navan hospital's emergency department and welcome the opportunity to update the House. There are a number of ambulance bypass protocols in place around the country at this time and they are important to ensure patients receive the right care in the appropriate hospital, depending on their clinical needs. Our Lady's Hospital in Navan provides a range of inpatient and outpatient general medical, elective surgical and orthopaedic services, with a 24-hour emergency department service to which patients may self-present or be brought by ambulance. The HSE has advised that the current acute model of care at Our Lady's Hospital holds significant risks from a governance and clinical care perspective. The emergency department at Our Lady's Hospital currently has an ambulance bypass protocol in place for patients who have suffered a stroke, heart attack or major trauma, as well as those in need of paediatric and obstetric care. From 12 December, the HSE is enhancing this ambulance bypass protocol to include patients who are critically or seriously unwell, or likely to deteriorate. Following the enhancement, this cohort of patients will bypass the emergency department at Our Lady's Hospital and be brought to the closest appropriate hospital for their needs.

The decision to convey a patient to, or bypass, the emergency department at Our Lady's Hospital Navan will be made by the attending National Ambulance Service teams. The National Ambulance Service teams will assess patients, treat them as appropriate and transport them to the nearest appropriate hospital depending on their clinical condition. This change is expected to affect only a small number of patients. However, this small cohort of patients, who are critically and seriously unwell, require appropriate treatment urgently. This enhancement of the current ambulance bypass protocol will ensure these patients receive the most appropriate care as quickly as possible in the most appropriate hospital. Following the enhancement of the ambulance bypass protocol, ambulances will continue to bring patients outside of the critically and seriously unwell categories to the emergency department at Our Lady's Hospital Navan. The National Ambulance Service has put an additional 24-7 emergency ambulance and an additional intermediate care vehicle on the ground in Navan to support this change to the current ambulance bypass protocol.

I would like to reiterate that no decision regarding the HSE's proposal for the transition of the emergency department at Navan has been agreed. While recognising the very real clinical concerns, the Government is clear that several important issues, including additional capacity in other hospitals impacted and the continued ability of people in the Navan area to access emergency and urgent care, would need to be fully addressed before any proposed transition by the HSE could be considered.

Senator Shane Cassells

The Minister of State said "regarding the HSE's proposal for the transition of the emergency department at Navan has been agreed." Yesterday, the HSE issued a letter saying it has this done. I have it here. It is being shared by the HSE itself. I do not trust it when it is issuing statements counter to what Ministers and Departments are saying. There is no trust between elected Members and the HSE, and more important, between it and the people, because of the manner in which is does its business. The Minister of State said the change is expected to affect only a small number of patients. Some 2,000 people a year go through those doors. As a result of these bypass protocols, 90% of them will not be going to Navan. How can the HSE send 2,000 people to an emergency department that is already at capacity? Where will they go? The HSE does not have the answer. They will be in tents out in the carpark. The Minister of State says this is an enhancement. How is it an enhancement if an elderly relative of mine is on a trolley in a carpark in Drogheda? It is a disgrace and a stain on this State and its health service to hold up this and say it is an adequate health service for the people of Meath and Navan. If the HSE thinks it can carry this off, it has another think coming.

Acting Chairperson (Senator Mary Seery Kearney)

Thank you, Senator.

Senator Shane Cassells

Political responsibility will be called for. I will be calling on the Minister for Health to make sure he stops this fallacy.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

There is a shared concern to ensure patients in Navan, Meath and the north east, or any part of the country, can access the services they need. As mentioned earlier, there is currently an ambulance bypass protocol in place for Our Lady's Hospital Navan for paediatric, obstetric, major trauma, heart attack and stroke care patients. These patients bypass the emergency department at Our Lady's Hospital and are brought to the closest appropriate hospital for their needs. This ambulance bypass protocol is being enhanced to include patients who are critically or seriously ill or likely to deteriorate. This will ensure the cohort of patients who require appropriate treatment urgently will be brought to the closest appropriate hospital for their needs as quickly as possible. Ambulances will continue to bring patients outside of the critically and seriously unwell categories to the emergency department at our Lady's Hospital Navan. This enhanced ambulance bypass protocol is important to ensure patients receive the right care in the right place and at the right time. I was not aware, and I am not sure the Minister is, of the letter the Senator is referring to but I will certainly bring it to his attention.

Senator Shane Cassells

Unfortunately, there were retractions this morning-----

Acting Chairperson (Senator Mary Seery Kearney)

Thank you, Senator.

Senator Shane Cassells

-----but that was done after the event.

Acting Chairperson (Senator Mary Seery Kearney)

The Senator has had his time.

Senator Shane Cassells

I was just answering the Minister of State's questions, with respect.

Acting Chairperson (Senator Mary Seery Kearney)

You should have respect for everyone else's time as well.

Senator Shane Cassells

He needed to hear the answer.

Hospital Facilities

Senator Seán Kyne

I thank the Cathaoirleach's office for selecting this matter. I will say this again, as I have said numerous times. There are four Ministers in the Department of Health, senior and junior, and yet Deputy Noonan is here. I mean no disrespect to him but it is something many of us have raised in the past.

For the first time since I came into these Houses in 2011, I can see a vision from the Saolta Hospital Group for healthcare in the west. Heretofore we have had internal politics, division and debate about different sites between University Hospital Galway, UHG, and Merlin Park with regard to dealing with the infrastructural needs in Galway. It is not just Galway but the whole region because University Hospital Galway is a model 4 hospital for the region. Unfortunately, its infrastructure is outdated. A temporary emergency department has been built of late to allow for future development and a new 75-bed ward. There has been some work in other areas such as an adult mental health unit and more. We are in bad need of investment in the area. The plan produced by the Saolta group incorporates four effective areas, including a new emergency department women and children's block, which I have raised here on numerous occasions. The strategic assessment report is with the Minister. We need to progress this and for the next stage to go through the business case for development and all of that. This is a major project of more than €100 million. That is why it has been delayed compared to original plans. It is absolutely vital. In 2015, the then Taoiseach Enda Kenny said in response to a question from the leader of the Opposition, Deputy Micheál Martin, that the emergency department was not fit for purpose. It was not fit for purpose then or years before that and it is not fit for purpose now.

The second project Saolta is interested in is the replacement of the laboratory buildings. A new five-storey laboratory block adjacent to the current mortuary is currently being considered by the HSE nationally. This project has approval in principle within the HSE but it is currently reviewing a strategic assessment report. This would replace laboratories built in the 1950s. That is important as well. The third item relates to cancer care and a new ward block. According to the national development plan, "In accordance with balanced regional development, a cancer care network for the Saolta region (West, North West) with a Cancer Centre at Galway University Hospital with appropriate infrastructure will be delivered." That is in the national development and Project Ireland 2040.

The reports have identified a bed deficit in Galway and, really, we have a situation in which cancer patients are in competition with other people to get beds. That is not good enough. A dedicated cancer unit is needed for people who have to travel long distances, whether it is from Donegal, Mayo or elsewhere in Galway to avail of the services. A 200-bed ward block is needed and must be prioritised. The final item on the list relates to an elective hospital. The review carried out recommended a 125 day-bed and 71 inpatient room hospital be built. These are the asks of Saolta.

We had a very important meeting recently in which Professor Kearns led off and we heard from stakeholders and clinicians in the area about the needs of UHG and the region. We wish to see the plans progress and there is cross-party support for the delivery of these projects for Galway and the region.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Seanadóir as an gceist sin and for the opportunity to provide an update on the status of the Saolta University Health Care Group's proposals for a new emergency department, cancer care centre, elective beds and laboratory facilities at UHG and Merlin Park. As fate would have it, the Minister is before the committee with regard to Estimates. It is an incredibly busy time.

The strategic assessment report for the proposed emergency department, women and children's block at UHG is currently under review within the Department of Health to ensure its alignment with national policy and strategy, as well as to ensure the proposal is affordable within the overall capital envelope. Under the public spending code, following this review, the report will be submitted to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform which will advise if the proposal can proceed to the development of a preliminary business case. In the meantime, I am pleased to say that the new interim emergency department opened in October 2022. This interim emergency department and associated works will also serve as enabling works for the proposed new block if it is approved.

With regard to the cancer care centre, in line with the national cancer strategy, the model of care for hospital cancer treatment is centred on eight designated cancer centres serving a defined population and geographic area of which UHG is one such centre. The centralisation of specialist services aims to optimise patient outcomes through case volume, multidisciplinary working and infrastructural supports. Saolta University Health Care Group made a capital submission earlier this year to the HSE for a Galway cancer care centre which has not yet been approved. When approved, it will be submitted to the Department of Health for review. The proposal, costing in excess of €100 million, will need to follow the requirements of the public spending code and the HSE capital projects manual and approvals protocol.

With regard to elective facilities, the Government agreed a new national elective ambulatory care strategy in December 2021. This new strategy aims to change the way in which day case, scheduled procedures, surgeries, scans and outpatient services can be better arranged to ensure greater capacity in the future and help to address waiting lists. The development of additional capacity will be provided through dedicated, standalone elective hospitals in Cork, Galway and Dublin.

A preliminary project business case has been developed for the new elective hospital in Galway. It is expected that a memorandum for Government seeking approval in principle of the business case at decision gate 1 of the public spending code will be submitted shortly for consideration. This is required before the project can move to gate 2, which involves the development of a detailed project brief and procurement strategy. It is hoped that the new elective centre will open in 2027 and be fully operational by 2028. Laboratory services at UHG are currently being provided out of prefabricated accommodation. The Saolta University Health Care Group's plan is to provide new build modern laboratory facilities. A strategic assessment report has been submitted to the HSE national property and steering committee for consideration.

It is important to note, in addition to the projects raised by Senator Kyne, significant other capital works and investment are also happening in Galway. These include but are not limited to the previously mentioned interim emergency department, new orthopaedic theatres, an ambulance base and new facilities such as the 12-bed cardiothoracic ward. Under the national programme for radiation oncology, a new €56 million radiation oncology facility is expected to open to patients in quarter 2 of 2023. The facility will include seven radiotherapy treatment vaults, a brachytherapy suite, two computerised tomography, CT, rooms, MRI, on-treatment support and ancillary physics, treatment planning and administration facilities. This level of investment demonstrates this Government's commitment to the ongoing development of UHG, Merlin Park and the services available to the public.

Senator Seán Kyne

I thank the Minister of State for the comprehensive reply on behalf of the Department. All of these projects are important. I do not like to make any of them more important than another but there is a clear need for all projects to be delivered in the coming years. It is incumbent on Government to prioritise them. The public spending code is obviously important and we know about the debate with regard to the children's hospital but it can also be seen as a delaying tactic in some cases with regard to these vital projects. It is important that each stage be progressed as quickly as possible. We all want value for money but we also want quicker treatment and infrastructure development for the population of Galway and the region. I ask the Minister to continue to engage with Saolta University Health Care Group on the delivery of these projects as a priority. I have pushed, on numerous occasions, the issue of the emergency department and pediatric and maternity projects but I am also pushing these other projects as vitally important for Galway and the region.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

By their nature, capital projects of the scale and ambition of projects discussed here today take time to come into fruition and must adhere to the public spending code and certainly while not delaying part of it, it is important they adhere to the code. The strategic assessment report for the proposed new emergency department at UHG is currently under review by the Department of Health and when completed will be submitted to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform for review. With regard to the Galway cancer care centre, a capital submission has been made to the HSE but has not yet been approved. With regard to elective facilities, a preliminary business case has been developed for the new elective hospital in Galway and it is expected that the memorandum for Government to seek approval in principle of the business case will be submitted shortly for consideration.

UHG and Merlin Park hospital have a reputation for delivery of high quality, innovative and safe care to patients. This Government seeks to support the staff and patients in the healthcare journey of these facilities by continued strategic investment in services not only to the major projects the Senator included in the question but also through other projects currently under development and already mentioned here today, including the new radiation oncology unit which will cost €56 million and the development of a temporary but substantial emergency department building. I thank the Senator for raising the question this morning. It is important as the population continues to grow in the region that these services continue to be enhanced for the public.

EU Directives

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

I thank the Cathaoirleach for selecting the matter and the Minister of State for attending. It has been reported, as the Minister of State is aware, that in the negotiations on the long and eagerly-awaited new EU corporate sustainability due diligence directive Ireland has taken a position to seek the exclusion of asset managers and institutional investors and certain products associated with asset managers and institutional investors from the provisions of the proposed directive. The Minister of State is aware that more than 50 civil society organisations, including the Irish Coalition for Business and Human Rights, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, Friends of the Earth, Christian Aid, Action Aid, Oxfam and many others have written to the Minister of State to express their concern that the directive has been weakened over the course of the Council negotiations.

The exclusion of asset managers and institutional investors would severely weaken the directive. It effectively takes the money out of it. Capital is not an abstract thing. It is movement through our economy and society. It has real impacts. From 2010 to 2021 private equity firms alone in their investments were responsible for approximately €1.1 trillion into the energy sector, overwhelmingly directed into fossil fuels. Ireland, given its own recent past, should in fact be a champion for the need for responsible regulation of the financial sector.

By seeking and supporting an exemption of this kind, Ireland risks severely limiting the effectiveness of this important EU directive in respect of climate targets, environmental protection, ethics and human rights. It also risks undermining Ireland's international credibility on finance and human rights. At a time we are a member of the UN Security Council, the reputational risk should not be underestimated.

I urge the Minister of State to do the right thing at the Competitiveness Council meeting this week. I would like him to update the House on the position that Ireland will take on the question of the value chain and ensuring that we examine downstream as well as upstream impacts. For example, when assessing environmental damage, the impact of manufacturing pesticides as well as the impact of their use should be examined. There must also be a gender-proofing of the directive, as the issue of gender is key. Let us ensure that we are not contributing to a weakening.

Senator Paul Gavan

I welcome the Minister of State. The aim of the directive is to foster sustainable and responsible corporate behaviour throughout global value chains, but it is a weak directive as it stands and, therefore, the reports that Ireland is looking to prevent the inclusion of asset managers and institutional investors from the corporate sustainability reporting directive are concerning.

I will quote Ms Marie Donnelly, chair of the Climate Change Advisory Council, CCAC, who has openly called out the financial sector. She stated:

If I had my way, the first, the middle and the last item on the agenda would be to stop all funding of fossil fuel exploration. We've found enough. We don't need any more. My message to Irish banks is "come clean on what you invest in and then be able to stand over it".

The Minister of State will be aware that the world's top banks provided $742 billion in financing to the fossil fuel industry in 2021, little changed on the year prior. This was shown in a report on Wednesday, despite growing calls to rein in lending to help tackle global warming.

The types of human rights abuses that the Government is potentially seeking to exclude asset managers and institutional investors from doing due diligence to identify and mitigate in their value chains include child labour, slave labour, forced displacement, land grabbing, violence and human trafficking. Considering upstream risks but excluding downstream ones means that, for example, Bank of Ireland would need to do due diligence on the paper it uses in its photocopiers but not on the €100 million it gives to fund a wind energy project on biodiverse lands. Will the Minister of State clarify definitively that Ireland's position is that financial institutions, including their downstream activities, must be included in the directive?

Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Deputy Dara Calleary)

I thank the Senators for raising this matter. Senator Gavan has been in touch with me on it as it relates to a number of issues.

A proposal for a directive on corporate sustainability due diligence, CSDD, was published by the European Commission on 23 February and addresses corporate behaviour and due diligence processes for the companies within its scope. The proposal focuses on establishing a system within company law and corporate governance to address adverse human rights and environmental impacts arising from companies' own operations, their subsidiaries' operations and their chain of activities. The proposal will apply to companies across all sectors of the economy, including regulated financial undertakings in the financial sector.

I am aware of some media reports, and the concerns that have been expressed in this debate, that suggested that Ireland wanted the financial sector to be excluded. Ireland did not seek the exclusion of the financial sector from the proposal. However, during the discussions at EU working party meetings, a number of practical issues were raised about the inclusion within the directive's scope of financial products, namely, alternative investment funds and undertakings for collective investment in transferable securities. This contrasts with the approach taken in the sustainable finance disclosures regulation, SFDR, which covers financial market participants rather than financial products. In the interests of policy coherence and effective implementation, a similar approach has been sought in respect of the CSDD. These financial products are no longer within scope. However, a key point is that financial market participants remain within scope.

An issue was also raised regarding the applicability of the proposal to pension institutions operating national social security schemes, as their purpose in this instance is to carry out a primary social function rather than investment. The proposal now provides discretion to member states in this regard.

There has been a great deal of discussion of this proposal at EU working party level. While there were areas within the proposal where we would have welcomed more ambition, including value chains, in light of the negotiations that took place and in the spirit of compromise, I will participate in tomorrow's meeting to strengthen Ireland's position further and will table my concerns about the value chain proposals.

Senator Alice-Mary Higgins

This effectively includes the actors but not their products. The products are where the money is. I noted from one of the reports on Ireland's submission to the early negotiation process – I appreciate that the process has moved on since – that Ireland raised concerns about the significant administrative and cost burdens on, for example, pension schemes. This is where the money is. How an asset manager runs his or her office is included in the directive but the products he or she sells are not, even though those products may present the opportunity to invest in ways that are not checked for child labour, slave labour, the use of violence and land appropriation. These are essential issues.

The CCAC and the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, IPCC, have identified that the irresponsible actions of investors are a key driver of climate change. To take these products out of the mix and say that what happens with those large amounts will not be made accountable will undermine overall confidence in the directive. Even if it is only to think of our own reputation, I urge the Government to ensure that Ireland is not championing this issue.

I welcome the position on the value chain, but will the Minister of State comment on gender proofing, which is another key concern?

I was part of the Conference on the Future of Europe process. One of the strongest recommendations made by multiple citizens from multiple parts of Europe was for ethical and environmental responsibility and accountability by business. I am worried that they will be disappointed with the final directive.

Senator Paul Gavan

I will take just ten seconds to emphasise one point.

Acting Chairperson (Senator Mary Seery Kearney)

The Senator was very efficient previously.

Senator Paul Gavan

The Acting Chairperson is kind. It appears to me that the due diligence obligations will only apply to financial players before they provide a service, for example, insurance. Investments will not be covered and EU countries can exempt pension funds. This is glaringly a missed opportunity to strengthen the directive. Perhaps the Minister of State will comment on this point.

Deputy Dara Calleary

The position was based on being consistent with the SFDR. There were proposals, which we did not support, to remove the entire financial sector. We will not support such proposals; they have not gone away.

The concern around pensions was that the cost would not be passed on to pensioners. That issue has been resolved. I met the coalition involved in this space a number of weeks ago. It was a good meeting that I found useful for my information purposes. I have met Mr. Barry Andrews, MEP, and will meet him again in Brussels this evening. He has led on this issue in the European Parliament.

I have consistently raised the gender issue and will continue to do so. As Senator Higgins knows, tomorrow is only about agreeing the general approach. The proposal will then go to the European Parliament as part of the trilogue process. My Department and I will continue to work with Senators and our MEPs to ensure that we get as strong a directive as possible. However, we must also be real about this. We are just one member state. We now have a path towards progress that was not even anticipated a number of weeks ago. We will continue to keep progressing and strengthening the proposal.

Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionraí ar 11.19 a.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 11.30 a.m.

Sitting suspended at 11.19 a.m. and resumed at 11.30 a.m.