Comhchoiste na Gaeilge, na Gaeltachta agus Phobal Labhartha na Gaeilge debate -
Wednesday, 2 Mar 2022

Logainmneacha na Gaeltachta: An tAire Stáit ag an Roinn Comhshaoil, Aeráide agus Cumarsáide

Chairman

Leanfaidh an cruinniú seo ar aghaidh go dtí 4.30 p.m. más gá. Tá leithscéal faighte againn ón Teachta McHugh. Cuirim fearadh na fáilte roimh chomhaltaí an chomhchoiste atá istigh sa seomra, roimh na finnéithe atá os ár gcomhair agus roimh an lucht atá ag féachaint orainn ar an teilifís. Tá na comhaltaí seo a leanas linn ar líne: an Teachta Calleary, an Teachta Aindrias Ó Muimhneacháin, an Seanadóir Kyne agus an Teachta Daly. Tá siad ar fad ag teacht isteach go fíorúil ar an scáileán. Laistigh de sheomra an choiste, tá an Seanadóir Clifford-Lee, an Seanadóir Ó Donnghaile agus mé féin.

Cuirim fáilte roimh na cuairteoirí nó finnéithe atá againn inniu: an tAire Stáit ag an Roinn Iompair ar a bhfuil freagracht ar leith maidir le hiompar idirnáisiúnta agus bóthair agus lóistíocht agus an tAire Stáit ag an Roinn Comhshaoil, Aeráide agus Cumarsáide ar a bhfuil freagracht ar leith maidir le beartas poist agus Eircode, an Teachta Hildegarde Naughton; príomhoifigeach sa Roinn a bhfuil freagracht air maidir le hEircode, Ben King, atá linn go fíorúil ar líne; Aisling Nic Bhrádaigh, ardoifigeach feidhmiúcháin; agus Gráinne Uí Thuama, príomhoifigeach agus ceannasaí cumarsáide. Tá fáilte rompu uilig. Is mian liom é a chur ar an taifead go bhfuil an tAire Stáit agus beirt de na finnéithe istigh i seomra coiste 4 agus go bhfuil Ben King ag freastal ar an gcruinniú ar líne.

Cuirfidh mé ar an taifead poiblí go bhfuil díomá orm féin agus ar na comhaltaí eile den choiste nach raibh ionadaithe ó GeoDirectory sásta teacht os ár gcomhair inniu. Thug mé cuireadh dóibh teacht chuig an gcruinniú seo ach tá díomá orm nár éirigh leo teacht linn. Dhiúltaigh siad teacht. Cuirfidh mé ar an taifead poiblí an litir a sheol mise agus an litir a fuarthas ar ais.

Sula dtosóimid ar ábhar an chruinnithe, díreoidh mé isteach ar an ngnáthráiteas gur gá dom a léamh do na finnéithe. Táimid ag plé an foráil dhlíthiúil go n-úsáidtear logainmneacha Gaeilge amháin ar logainmneacha na Gaeltachta i bhfianaise fhionnachtain an Choimisinéara Teanga gur sháraigh an Roinn Comhshaoil, Aeráide agus Cumarsáide, nó an Roinn Cumarsáide, Fuinnimh agus Acmhainní Nádúrtha mar a bhí, a dualgas reachtúil teanga maidir le logainmneacha Gaeltachta i gcás an chóras Eircode. Táimid ag súil inniu go gceartófar an sárú sin. Tá súil agam go mbeidh an tAire Stáit in ann tiomantas a thabhairt inniu go gcuirfidh deireadh leis an gcleachtas dátheangach seo sa Ghaeltacht láithreach agus go gcloífidh an Roinn Comhshaoil, Aeráide agus Cumarsáide go docht lena dualgais dhlíthiúla faoi reachtaíocht atá achtaithe ag Tithe an Oireachtais as seo amach. Bhí mé ag súil leis an tiomantas seo a fháil ó Eircode chomh maith. Tá roinnt ionadaithe anseo agus tá súil agam go mbeidh siad in ann é sin a dhéanamh. Bhíomar chun féachaint ar an gcur chuige atá ag GeoDirectory freisin ach níl aon ionadaithe uaidh anseo.

Sula leanfaidh mé ar aghaidh, tá dualgas orm na rialacha agus na treoracha seo a leanas a leagan faoi bhráid na ndaoine atá ag freastal ar an gcruinniú. Meabhraím do chomhaltaí, d’fhinnéithe agus do bhaill fhoirne a chinntiú go bhfuil a ngutháin soghluaiste múchta le linn an chruinnithe toisc gur féidir leis na gléasanna sin cur as do chóras craolacháin, eagarthóireachta agus fuaime Thithe an Oireachtais. Tá an rogha ag comhaltaí freisin freastal ar an gcruinniú go fisiciúil nó ar Microsoft Teams. Luaigh mé cé atá ar Teams cheana féin. Ba chóir a chinntiú go mbeidh an micreafón múchta nuair nach bhfuil na comhaltaí nó na finnéithe ag labhairt linn. Ba chóir dúinn atá laistigh de sheomra an coiste cloí leis na moltaí eile maidir le sláinte in ainneoin go bhfuil na rialacha aisghairthe. Ba chóir do dhaoine na treoracha a leanúint, más féidir.

Cuirim ar aird na bhfinnéithe atá anseo go bhfuil siad, de bhua Bhunreacht na hÉireann agus reachtaíochta araon, faoi chosaint ag lán-phribhléid maidir leis an bhfianaise a thugann siad don chomhchoiste chomh fada agus atá siad lonnaithe laistigh de phurláin Thithe an Oireachtais.

Ní féidir le finnéithe a bhrath ar an gcosaint sin agus fianaise á tabhairt acu taobh amuigh de phurláin Thithe an Oireachtais. Molaim d'fhinnéithe, go mór mór dóibh siúd atá ag freastal ar an gcruinniú ó áit lasmuigh de phurláin Thithe an Oireachtais, a bheith cúramach agus fianaise á tabhairt acu. Má ordaíonn an comhchoiste dóibh éirí as fianaise a thabhairt i leith ní áirithe, beidh orthu amhlaidh a dhéanamh láithreach. Ordaítear dóibh gan aon fhianaise a thabhairt nach fianaise í a bhaineann le hábhar na n-imeachtaí atá á bplé ag an gcomhchoiste. Ba chóir dóibh a bheith ar an eolas go ndéanfar na ráitis tosaigh a chuirfear faoi bhráid an choiste a fhoilsiú ar shuíomh gréasáin an chomhchoiste tar éis an chruinnithe seo.

Fiafraítear d’fhinnéithe agus do chomhaltaí araon cleachtadh parlaiminte a urramú nár chóir, más féidir, duine nó eintiteas a cháineadh ná líomhaintí a dhéanamh ina n-aghaidh ná tuairimí a thabhairt maidir leo ina ainm, ina hainm nó ina n-ainmneacha nó ar shlí a bhféadfaí iad a aithint. Chomh maith leis sin, fiafraítear dóibh gan aon rud a rá a d’fhéadfaí breathnú air mar ábhar díobhálach do dhea-chlú aon duine nó eintiteas. Mar sin, dá bhféadfadh a ráitis a bheith clúmhillteach do dhuine nó eintiteas aitheanta, ordófar do na finnéithe éirí as an ráitis sin láithreach. Tá sé ríthábhachtach go ngéillfidh siad leis an ordú sin láithreach.

Anois, déanfaimid ár mbreathnú ar ábhar an chruinnithe. Iarraim ar phríomhfhinné an lae, an tAire Stáit, a ráiteas a thabhairt.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications (Deputy Hildegarde Naughton)

Gabhaim fíorbhuíochas leis an gcoiste as an deis seo sonraí a thabhair maidir le tuarascáil an Choimisinéara Teanga ar chur chun feidhme scéim teanga na Roinne i dtaca le logainmneacha Gaeltachta. Tá brón orm nach bhfuil mo chuid Ghaeilge líofa go leor le leanúint ar aghaidh i nGaeilge. Le cead an Chathaoirligh, leanfaidh mé ar aghaidh trí Bhéarla.

I thank the Chairman and the committee for this opportunity to present details regarding An Coimisinéir Teanga's report on the implementation of the Department's language scheme with regard to Gaeltacht placenames. I am very disappointed representatives of GeoDirectory are not present at this meeting to answer any technical questions that may arise. However, I will endeavour to get answers to any such questions the committee may ask today.

In 2015, the investigative report recommended seven actions to be undertaken by the Department. The September 2021 implementation report presented to the Oireachtas acknowledges the Department has made a genuine effort to implement all seven of the recommendations. However, An Coimisinéir Teanga concluded my Department has breached its statutory language requirements regarding its own language scheme by failing to ensure official placenames of Gaeltacht areas appear in Irish only in the Eircode system. Despite this, I am satisfied the Department meets the requirements of its language scheme and, furthermore, that all seven recommendations of An Coimisinéir Teanga's 2015 investigative report were actioned and reviewed by the Department's management board.

My Department has put in place the necessary arrangements to ensure official placenames of Gaeltacht areas are used as the default for official purposes, in compliance with our official language scheme, the Official Languages Act 2003, the Place-Names (Irish Forms) Act 1973 and placename orders that have been enacted. This extends to Capita's operation of the Eircode system in that the quarterly dissemination of new Eircode postcodes to Gaeltacht areas is carried out using only the Irish postal addresses provided by An Post and issued to Capita by An Post GeoDirectory. This also extends to the Eircode finder website tool where responses will default to the Irish version of the address when searching by address or Eircode for Gaeltacht placenames. In addition, where searching for Gaeltacht placenames is required, the Eircode finder website only utilises the latest maps published by Ordnance Survey Ireland, OSI, which shows the Irish version of Gaeltacht placenames through the OSI GeoHive web mapping service. Finally, both the Eircode website and Eircode finder website are available in Irish, and customer queries to the Capita support desk received in Irish by email, post and telephone channels are responded to in Irish.

These measures notwithstanding, I acknowledge it is unfortunate that private companies use addresses and people's names in English rather than their original language, Irish. However, I will clarify that the Eircode database does not, and never has, contained people's names.

With regard to complaints that individuals have received letters with their addresses translated into English, it is important to state the Eircode system is underpinned by the most current An Post postal addresses, which contain Gaeltacht placenames in both Irish and English. This is to ensure that the Eircode system, which is postal infrastructure in non-physical form, aligns with An Post's postal network as the universal postal service provider. Notwithstanding that, Eircode does not change existing addresses but can simply be added to the address normally used for the property. Individuals and private companies are free to use different forms of address. Indeed, private companies hold their own various forms of addresses in their own databases along with multiple forms of addresses for the same property. To resolve this issue of multiple forms of addresses, companies simply append Eircode postcodes to their own existing databases or addresses, whether they are in English, Irish or both. The use of addressing databases by private companies is an operational matter and a commercial decision for the companies themselves. My Department has no role in this.

The provision of all postal addresses, including Irish-language addresses, in the Eircode system is solely derived from the GeoDirectory database. This is the customer-facing product that combines address data provided by An Post and location co-ordinates provided by Ordnance Survey Ireland. This database is provided under licence by An Post GeoDirectory, APG, a subsidiary company of An Post and OSI, to Capita, which operates the Eircode system.

An Post has advised my Department that it is not possible to remove English postal addresses from its mail sorting system for Gaeltacht areas as this could impact the quality of service metrics in regard to mail delivery set by the postal regulator, the Commission for Communications Regulation, ComReg. ComReg has set quality of service standards requiring An Post to deliver 94% of single-piece priority mail posted in the State for delivery in the State on the next working day and to deliver 99.5% of such mail within three working days. An Post advised that removing English postal addresses would give rise to serious technical difficulties in the sorting and delivery of mail. This is because An Post's sorting equipment uses both English and Irish variations of addresses. These are used to match the address of the incoming letter. If no match is found, the letter will have to be manually sorted or returned to the sender. Furthermore, An Post stated that removing English variations of addresses in Gaeltacht areas would impact negatively on the quality monitoring that is in place for the delivery of mail. It is therefore not within the remit of Capita to change unilaterally the form of postal address in the Eircode system as An Post has responsibility for the assignment of postal addresses in the State.

Aside from that issue, private individuals have the option of using the Irish version of a postal address or another of the most commonly used versions in the Gaeltacht. People can simply append Eircode postcodes to their preferred address.

In the design phase of the Eircode system, Capita, supported by my Department, engaged with Foras na Gaeilge and Conradh na Gaeilge to ensure compliance with all statutory obligations regarding the Irish language. Since the issue of discrepancies in Irish addresses between the GeoDirectory and logainm.ie databases was raised with my Department in 2015, my officials have engaged with An Post, An Post GeoDirectory, Ordnance Survey Ireland, An Coimisiún Logainmneacha and Capita. This has resulted in Gaeltacht placenames that are the subject of discrepancies in the GeoDirectory databases being updated regularly. An Coimisiún Logainmneacha continues to supply An Post GeoDirectory with a file of Irish-language placenames that have been changed or updated. APG has informed my officials that the GeoDirectory database includes official placenames data as supplied by An Coimisiún Logainmneacha and that it updates this regularly with information provided by an coimisiún.

The GeoDirectory database is provided to Capita on a quarterly basis for the assignment and dissemination of Eircodes. An Coimisiún Logainmneacha is also working alongside Ordnance Survey Ireland to update its online geohive maps portal with the latest Gaeltacht placenames. This is used in the free Eircode finder.

My Department will continue to engage with an Coimisinéir Teanga; An Post and the An Post GeoDirectory; Ordnance Survey Ireland; An Coimisiún Logainmneacha; and Capita on the use of official Irish placenames in Gaeltacht areas. However, I am confident that my Department has fulfilled its obligations under the Official Languages (Amendment) Act 2021 and taken all possible steps to ensure the official placenames of Gaeltacht areas are used. I am happy to answer any further questions members may have.

Chairman

An bhfuil aon fhinné eile ag iarraidh labhairt ag an staid seo? Níl. Tá sé oscailte ag ceisteanna mar sin. Mar a dúirt mé ag an tús, níl ionadaithe ó GeoDirectory linn. Chuir sé nóta chugainn, a scaipeadh ar chomhaltaí, ag rá nach raibh ról aige anseo agus go raibh an dualgas ar an Roinn déileáil le pé ceisteanna atá ann. Is féidir le comhaltaí é sin a léamh iad féin. Dúirt sé nach raibh dímheas á thaispeáint don choiste agus go bhfuil súil aige go nglacfaidh muid lena chúiseanna gan a bheith i láthair. B'fhéidir go ndéanfaimid plé ar cad is féidir linn a dhéanamh nuair atá cás mar seo ann amach anseo nuair nach bhfuil comhlacht príobháideach atá ag déileáil le conradh poiblí sásta teacht os ár gcomhair sa slí gur chóir dó chun míniú a thabhairt ar an scéal. Tiocfaimid ar ais chuige sin agus b'fhéidir go ndéanfaimid comhairle dhlí a lorg ó Thithe an Oireachtais ar cén chearta atá againn mar choiste maidir leis sin. Tá an tAire Stáit agus tá oifigigh ón Roinn a bhíonn ag plé le Eircode linn, san áireamh an príomhoifigeach, Ben King; Gráinne Ní Thuama; agus Aisling Nic Bhrádaigh.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe as ucht a bheith os ár gcomhair. Cuirim céad míle fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. An bhfuil finnéithe ó Eircode linn?

Chairman

Níl Eircode anseo ach na hoifigigh ón Roinn a dhéanann déileáil leis.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Tuigim agus tá an litir ó Eircode léite agam. Ba mhaith liom an méid atá ráite aige a chur ar an taifead. Maíodh sa litir:

Dá bhrí sin, tá mé ag diúltú, le teann measa, [Ní dóigh liom gur teann measa atá ann] do do chuireadh le labhairt os comhair an Choiste ar an ábhar seo.

Ní féidir glacadh leis sin agus aontaím leis an gCathaoirleach go bhfuil gá é a fhiosrú.

Tá beagáinín mearbhall orm agus tá sé éasca mearbhall a chur orm. Tá an leabhar agus an tuarascáil ón gCoimisinéir Teanga léite agam agus tá an tuarascáil sin dírithe isteach ar an Roinn go háirithe agus tá freagracht áirithe ar an Roinn. Dúirt an Coimisinéir Teanga gur chuir sé tús leis an bhfiosrúchán nó an obair in 2015 tar éis gearáin a fháil. Anois táimid in 2022 agus tá beagáinín mearbhall orm. Tá an leagan Gaeilge den ráiteas tosaigh ón Aire Stáit léite agam agus maítear ann go bhfuil an tAire Stáit lán-mhuiníneach de go bhfuil a Roinn tar éis a oibleagáidí faoi Acht na dTeangacha Oifigiúla (Leasú), 2021 a chomhlíonadh agus go bhfuil gach beart is féidir déanta ag an Roinn lena chinntiú go mbainfear úsáid as na logainmneacha Gaelacha. Tagann sé sin salach ar na conclúidí ón gCoimisinéir Teanga. Sin an chúlra ar mo cheist. Tá an tAire Stáit ag rá nach bhfuil dualgas na Roinne sáraithe. Maítear sa chomhfhreagras agus i dtuarascáil an Choimisinéara Teanga go bhfuil. Tá sé admhaithe go bhfuil iarracht mhacánta déanta ag an Roinn dul i ngleic leis an bhfadhb ach in ainneoin sin go bhfuil an Roinn fós ag sárú a dualgas faoin Acht. Iarraim ar an Aire Stáit freagra a thabhairt air sin.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

In 2015 the investigative report concluded that the then Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources was carrying out its language scheme and upon considering the Department's input the Coimisinéir Teanga issued a final report making seven recommendations to the Department on seven actions that needed to be expedited. The Department accepted all those recommendations and commenced the implementation of those actions. They were all actioned and reviewed by the Department and the management board and in 2018 an Coimisinéir Teanga sought an update on the progress on the recommendations, mainly on the resolving of the discrepancies in the use of placenames in the GeoDirectory database. A new issue was also brought to the Department's attention regarding complaints received by an Coimisinéir Teanga that private companies were using addresses and people's names in English rather than in their original language, Irish. My Department contacted An Post, which advised the Department that this was not possible for it to resolve. There are a number of issues as to why people might receive their mail in a Gaeltacht area with an English address on it and An Post advised my Department that it was not possible for it to remove the English postal addresses from its mail sorting system for Gaeltacht areas. An Post has it in English and Irish in order for the efficient and next-day delivery of mail. It said that if it removed the English from its database it would impact on the quality of the service and the metrics on mail delivery set by the regulator, ComReg. ComReg has set quality of service standards requiring An Post to deliver 94% of single pieces of priority mail posted in the State for delivery in the State on the next working day and to deliver 99.5% of mail within three working days.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Gabh mo leithscéal ach tá an freagra léite agam. An cheist atá agam ná go bhfuil rud amháin á rá ag an Roinn; is é sin nach bhfuil a dualgais sáraithe aige. Tá rud eile á rá ag an gCoimisinéir Teanga, áfach, agus sin í mo cheist. Tá mé ag breathnú ar an tuarascáil agus ba mhaith liom a rá arís go dúirt an Coimisinéir Teanga go bhfuil iarracht ionraic déanta ag an Roinn ach in ainneoin sin go bhfuil sé ag sárú a dualgas. Dúirt sé go raibh imscrúdú agus monatóireacht ó 2015 ar aghaidh agus i ndeireadh na dála bhí sé "in vain" mar a dúirt sé. Ní raibh aon toradh ar na moltaí a cuireadh chun cinn aige. Cosúil leis an tuarascáil a rinne sé ar An nGarda Síochána, ní raibh an dara rogha aige ach an tuarascáil a chur os comhair na Dála i mí Meán Fómhair 2021. Tuigeann an tAire Stáit nach raibh an dara rogha ag an gCoimisinéir Teanga mar nach raibh sé sásta leis an dul chun cinn a bhí déanta. Sin an rud atá mise ag iarraidh a chíoradh. Cá bhfuil an Roinn maidir leis an gCoimisinéir Teanga? Cuireadh an tuarascáil os comhair na Dála i mí Meán Fómhair agus dúirt sé go soiléir go bhfuil sárú dualgas i gceist. An féidir leis an Roinn díriú isteach air sin? An bhfuil an Roinn ag rá nach bhfuil sé ag sárú a dualgas?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

Yes. In September 2021 the implementation report presented to the Oireachtas acknowledged that the Department made a genuine effort to implement all seven recommendations. The issue raised by the Coimisinéir Teanga was the official placenames of Gaeltacht areas appearing in Irish only in the Eircode system. That is why the Department contacted An Post on the English names and I might let Mr. King in on this point. Capita receives the information relating to Eircodes from GeoDirectory, which is a subsidiary of An Post. The addresses that Capita requires come from An Post and it has to align with the postal delivery service. An Post says it has to have the English and Irish addresses on its sorting system and on its software in the mail sorting office in order to align with a letter and match it. That was the issue that was raised by the commissioner.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Gabh mo leithscéal ach ní hé sin é. Deir an coimisinéir ina thuarascáil:

Is bun riachtanas é áfach go gcomhlíontar dualgais reachtúla teanga agus ní féidir le haon socraithe eile teacht in áit na ndualgais sin nó na dualgais sin a mhaolú ar aon bhealach.

Sin í an chonclúid. Sin a dúirt sé go soiléir. Ag eascairt as sin, lean sé ar aghaidh i gcumarsáid leis an Roinn. B’fhéidir go mbeidh mo chomhghleacaithe in ann na deacrachtaí a chíoradh ach ag an bpointe seo níl ach rud amháin go bhfuil mise ag iarraidh a fháil amach. Tar éis seacht mbliana, táimid fós ag déileáil leis an bpraiseach chéanna i ndáiríre. Bhí ar an gCoimisinéir Teanga an tuarascáil a chur os comhair na Dála maidir le rud chomh bunúsach le seoltaí i nGaeilge i gceantair Ghaeltachta agus comhlíonadh na ndualgas faoin scéim teanga. An bhfuil sé sin admhaithe ag an Roinn? An bhfuil sé sin á admháil aici anois? Cad atá déanta ag na finnéithe chun é seo a chur i gceart?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

I will outline some of the actions since 2015 in relation to that report. The Department’s language scheme does not provide for the exclusive use of Irish in Gaeltacht placenames. The Department, in line with the language scheme, ensures that official placenames of Gaeltacht areas are used as the default for corporate purposes. In the design phase of the Eircode system, Capita, supported by the Department, engaged with Foras na Gaeilge and Conradh na Gaeilge to ensure compliance with all statutory obligations regarding the Irish language. The Department also put in place the necessary arrangements to ensure that the official placenames of Gaeltacht areas were used as a default for official purposes. Compliance with the Official Languages Act, the Place Names (Irish Forms) Act and placenames orders was also part of that and that extends to Capita’s operation of the Eircode system and its quarterly dissemination of Eircodes. If someone searches for a placename in a Gaeltacht area with the Eircode finder website tool, it will default to the Irish version of the address. There has been and continues to be ongoing engagement with Coimisiún na Logainmneacha and GeoDirectory in order to ensure that Irish placenames are kept up to date and regularly updated. I will bring in Mr. King on this in case there is anything I missed. He was in the Department throughout this process.

Mr. Ben King

When Eircodes started off, Capita engaged with the various different bodies to ensure the design and operation were compliant. As the Minister of State said, the Eircode finder provides Irish-only addresses in Gaeltacht areas. It gives people a choice whether to use Irish or English but it defaults to the Irish version. Capita extracts the Irish language address only and uses that to disseminate new Eircodes. When it sends out the form with the Eircode on it to Gaeltacht areas, it only contains the Gaeltacht name. Those dissemination letters are sent by An Post, which delivers them on behalf of Capita. Both the website and the finder site are in Irish and in English, so if someone wants to deal totally in Irish with Eircodes, they can do that. Capita has employed two Irish-speaking agents so if queries come through about an Eircode or an address, the person can work directly with Capita through Irish from the initial correspondence right through to the resolution of their problem. Capita has put these systems in place since we started the project.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Tá sé deacair gan mearbhall a bheith orm agus mé ag éisteacht agus ag iarraidh é seo a chíoradh. Níor fhreagair an tAire Stáit mo cheist. An bhfuil sí ag admháil go bhfuil dualgais na Roinne faoin scéim teanga agus faoi Acht na dTeangacha Oifigiúla sáraithe, agus nach raibh an dara rogha ag an gcoimisinéir ach an chéim dheireanach a thógáil agus an tuarascáil a chur os comhair na Dála? Ligfidh mé do mo chomhghleacaithe díriú air sin. Beidh cíoradh i gceist maidir le cá bhfuil muid ag dul. Seacht mbliana tar éis an ghearáin, agus na gearáin fós ag teacht isteach, tá fadhb ann. Tá logainm.ie agus iadsan leis an saineolas ag cur an t-eolas ar fáil. Tá eagraíocht ann arb ainm GeoDirectory - sin An Post agus Suirbhéireacht Ordanáis Éireann faoin teideal GeoDirectory - agus ansin tá an comhlacht príobháideach, agus conradh idir an Roinn agus an comhlacht príobháideach sin. Níor chinntigh an Roinn sa chonradh go mbeadh an dualgas maidir le seoltaí agus ainmneacha Gaeltachta á chomhlíonadh. Tá litir anseo agam ó GeoDirectory, i mBéarla agus i nGaeilge. Deir sé:

Tá ról lárnach ag GeoDirectory maidir le sonraí a sholáthar don táirge Eircode [tá sé sin soiléir] atá mar uirlis ríthábhachtach bonneagair d'Éirinn. Mar chuid den phróiseas seo, cuirimid na leaganacha Béarla agus Gaeilge de na sonraí seolta ar fáil do Capita/Eircode [sin an comhlacht príobháideach]. Is féidir le Capita ceachtar den dá leagan den seoladh nó an dá theanga a úsáid ina gcuid táirgí.

Cuireann siad an t-eolas ar fáil don chomhlacht príobháideach agus ceapann Capita go bhfuil rogha acu idir an dá rud. Ar a laghad tá an t-eolas acu ó na saineolaithe. Cad atá ag tarlú leis an gcomhlacht príobháideach nach bhfuil siad ag comhlíonadh na ndualgas atá orthu? Tá siad ag feidhmiú ar son na Roinne.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

GeoDirectory is a subsidiary of An Post. As I said, An Post has to give both the English and the Irish address for its own sorting reasons. That is given to Capita and then it is up to anyone to get the address through the Eircode finder. If someone in a Gaeltacht area looks up their address, the default position is that they will be given the Irish address.

To go back to an important point the Deputy made about logainm.ie and the experts in GeoDirectory, there is a commitment and ongoing engagement with regard to discrepancies. The Department does not want any discrepancies in this area. There are regular updates and we are in constant contact with An Post, OSI and GeoDirectory in order to improve the system and make sure it is maintained. This has been ongoing. It is in the Department’s interests that we engage with the likes of this committee and hear feedback on this matter. This contract ends in December 2023 and the Department is reviewing the arrangements around a new contract and what that could entail. That is why it is important that we engage with all stakeholders, including this committee. Work is also being done around the dissemination of Eircodes and making that interval shorter. The Deputy can be assured that the Department is meeting the requirements of the language scheme. We are open to ensuring that this is working. The fundamental point in relation to the Coimisinéir Teanga was around having the English address and the Irish address being provided by An Post.

When the Department went to An Post about removing the English version, An Post said it could not do that for sorting purposes in the mail offices because it needs to be able to match a particular address to both the English and the Irish in order for it to be delivered in the context of its next-day delivery obligations under ComReg. That was the response from An Post and that was the issue raised by an Coimisinéir Teanga. It was a new issue that the Department sought to rectify but, unfortunately, An Post is not in a position to do that because it needs to live up to its next-day delivery obligations.

Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire Stáit as a cur i láthair. Níl an taithí ná an t-eolas céanna agam ar an ábhar seo mar níl Eircodes i bhfeidhm sa chuid d’Éirinn ina bhfuil mise i mo chónaí. Mar sin ní sheasfaidh mé idir comhghleacaithe eile a bhfuil ceisteanna i bhfad níos práinní acu. Níl uaim ach pointe eolais a thabhairt don Aire Stáit agus dá hoifigigh, is é sin an taithí a bhíonn againn sna Sé Chontae ó am go chéile nuair a chuirtear post trí mheán na Gaeilge ó Thuaidh. Cuirtear ar ais é gan an ceann scríbe a bhaint amach toisc go bhfuil an seoladh scríofa i nGaeilge. Is fiú don Aire Stáit a fhiosrú, trína hoifig nó tríd an Chomhairle Aireachta Thuaidh-Theas, cén fáth a bhfuil sé sin ag tarlú agus stop a chur leis sin. Ardaíodh an cheist seo sna meáin cúpla uair nuair nach raibh daoine ag fáil a bpost a sheoladh ó Dheas agus nach raibh a cheann scríbe á bhaint amach aige mar gheall ar an seoladh a bheith scríofa i nGaeilge. Tuigim agus aithním go bhfuil sé lasmuigh den réimse stuif atá á phlé againn agus nach bhfuil an tAire Stáit freagrach as sin, ach toisc go raibh an seal agam é a ardú léi ag an gcoiste inniu agus go mbaineann sé le cúrsaí agus cearta Gaeilge, bhí mé ag iarraidh an pointe sin a ardú agus an t-eolas a thabhairt di.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

I will look at that.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Tá fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. Tá dhá rud anseo. Tá an t-ordú a rinne mise, mar a tharlaíonn sé, mar feicim m'ainm air, maidir le húsáid logainmneacha Gaeilge agus Gaeltachta. Níl sé sin mar fhadhb sa chás seo. Ansin tá an rud a thuigimse atá mar chnámh spáirne anseo, is é sin nuair a tharraing Roinn an Aire Stáit an dualgas uirthi féin nuair a deimhníodh scéim leis an Roinn ealaíon, oidhreachta agus pobail Ghaeltachta, mar a bhí ag an am, inar ndúirt an Roinn go n-úsáidfí na leaganacha Gaeilge de na hainmneacha sa Ghaeltacht amháin. Tá dhá dhearmad á ndéanamh ag Ranna an t-am uilig i gcás a leithéid de scéimeanna, is iad sin go ndéanann siad rudaí gan na himpleachtaí a scrúdú agus go ndéanann siad dearmad anois is arís eile go bhfuil feidhm dhlí leis na scéimeanna seo. De réir mar a thuigim é, is é toradh an imscrúdaithe a rinne an coimisinéir ná gur sháraigh an Roinn an dlí toisc go mbaineann an dlí go sonrach ní h-amháin leis an Roinn ach le haon chonradh fochomhlachta atá ag an Roinn mar an bpríomhchonraitheoir.

Ar lorg an Roinn comhairle an Ard-Aighne nuair a bhfuair sí an t-imscrúdú? An raibh an ceart ag an gcoimisinéir, ó thaobh an dlí de, gur sháraigh nó nár sháraigh an Roinn an dlí? Má sáraíodh é, is cuma cé chomh místuama agus a cheap an Roinn é a bheith, ní féidir le Roinn an dlí a shárú mar sin. Cén chaoi is féidir linn a bheith ag súil go mbeadh ómós ag an bpobal ar an dlí mura bhfuil na Ranna ag cloí leis na dlíthe nuair nach bhfeileann siad dóibh? Sin é croí na ceiste seo. Níl mé ag rá gur smaoinigh an té a cheap an scéim sa Roinn ar an rud a atá á dhéanamh acu, ach ní leithscéal ar bith é sin mar, mar is eol don Aire Stáit, má dhéantar dearmad maidir le cúrsaí leasa shóisialaigh nó aon rud eile, ní aon chosaint faoin dlí é aineolas, agus beirtear ar shaoránaigh chuile lá den tseachtain ar an mbunús sin.

Is ceist shimplí í an cheist atá agam. An bhfuil breithiúnas nó tuairim an Ard-Aighne faighte ag an Roinn faoin gceist a d’ardaigh an Coimisinéir Teanga, is í sin an bhfuil an Roinn ag comhlíonadh an dlí nó an bhfuil an dlí á sárú aici? Tá súil agam go bhfaighinn an freagra "Fuaireamar an chomhairle sin" nó "Ní bhfuaireamar comhairle air sin".

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

The Department is satisfied it meets the requirements of its language scheme but the issue-----

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I am sorry. An bhfuair siad comhairle an Ard-Aighne ar sin? Dúirt an tAire Stáit, “The Department is satisfied”. Cé hí an Roinn á rá that it is satisfied? An bhfuil comhairle dlí ag an Roinn ón Ard-Aighne, an t-aon duine atá in ann breithiúnas dlí a thabhairt ar son an Rialtais?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

The advice from the Department was reviewed in relation to the Coimisinéir Teanga investigative report of 2015. Those recommendations were reviewed by management within the Department and the management board, and I have been assured the Department meets the language requirement scheme. However, with that said, I hear the concerns in regard to the delivery of some letters in English. There are a number of issues around that as well as to reasons-----

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

No, sorry. I did not ask that question. The Minister of State is missing the whole point here. Níl a fhios agam an bhfuil an t-aistriúchán foirfe, mar bhí an pointe a rinne mé simplí, is é sin ná ní bhaineann sé seo leis an ardú, baineann sé leis an bplean. Dúirt an coimisinéir nár chloígh an Roinn leis an bplean, agus mura gcloíonn sí leis an bplean, is sárú ar an dlí é sin. Mar dhuine a bhí lárnach sa phlé ar an Acht teanga in 2003 ó tharla go raibh mé Aire ag an am, táim sásta go bhfuil an ceart ag an gcoimisinéir gur ionann sárú ar an bplean agus sárú ar an dlí.

Ó tharla go bhfuil sé admhaithe anseo nár lorg an Roinn comhairle an Ard-Aighne, an bhfuil an tAire Stáit sásta comhairle an Ard-Aighne a fháil anois? An bhfuil an ceart ag an gcoimisinéir ina thuairim go bhfuil an dlí sáraithe ag an Roinn, nó an bhfuil an coimisinéir mícheart go bhfuil an dlí sáraithe, i dtuairim an Ard-Aighne? Ba cheart dúinn freagra na ceiste sin a fháil. Ní ghlacaim le bainistíocht. Is ionann é sin agus príomhfheidhmeannach ospidéil ag rá go raibh cruinniú bainistíochta ann agus go ndearna siad cinneadh, mar bhainisteoirí gan aon chomhairle leighis, ar obráid atá le déanamh ar dhuine éigin. Níl aon chiall leis sin.

An bhfuil an tAire Stáit sásta comhairle an Ard-Aighne a fháil ar an gceist an bhfuil an dlí sáraithe nó nach bhfuil? Má tá sé sáraithe, tá go leor bealaí ann chun an fhadhb sin a réiteach, ach táimid ag iarraidh a fháil amach an é tuairim na Roinne é, tar éis comhairle dlí a fháil ón t-aon údarás amháin atá údarásach sa deireadh, an tArd-Aighne, go bhfuil an dlí sáraithe nó nach bhfuil.

Níl aon mhaith dul ar aghaidh leis an díospóireacht. Tá go leor rudaí eile gur mhaith liom a phlé anseo, mar shampla, an fáth nach bhfuil na logainmneacha de 30% de na seoltaí taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht ar fáil. Fágfaimid é sin ar leataobh i dtosach báire. Go dtí go bhfaighimid amach céard é tuairim an Ard-Aighne faoin dlí seo, is ag dul timpeall i gciorcal a bheidh muid. Tá sé in am anois go dtosóidh Ranna Stáit ag tabhairt freagraí díreacha ar cheisteanna díreacha istigh sa gcoiste seo.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

My understanding is the Attorney General's advice was not sought on this. Just to say-----

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

An bhfuil an tAire Stáit agus a Roinn sásta é a fháil anois?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

I can come back to the Deputy in relation to clarity on that. The Department has put in place the necessary arrangements to ensure official placenames of Gaeltacht areas, as declared by the Minister in the 2005 placenames order, will continue to be used as the default for corporate purposes including, where appropriate, legislative, corporate and statistical purposes.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Tá stonewalling ar bun anseo agus ní hé sin an chéad uair a rinne Roinn Stáit stonewalling istigh ag an gcoiste seo. Is náireach an scéal go gceapann siad go n-úsáidfeadh siad an teanga le stonewalling a dhéanamh orainn arís agus arís eile istigh ar an gcoiste seo. Is bulaíocht atá i gceist.

Chairman

Déanfaimid déileáil le pé freagraí a thugann an tAire Stáit inniu.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Ach-----

Chairman

Níl mé ag cur críoch leis seo inniu. Sular tháinig an Teachta isteach, bhí mé ag rá go bhfuilimid ag lorg comhairle dlí mar gheall ar an------

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

But is é an pointe atá-----

Chairman

Lig dom críochnú. Táimid ag lorg comhairle dlí mar gheall ar an dá chomhlacht nach bhfuil anseo inniu. Más gá dúinn teacht ar ais chuig an Aire Stáit-----

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Ó thaobh an phointe atá ann, léigh mé an freagra a thug GeoDirectory agus an rud a dúirt Eircode agus, chun a bheith fírinneach, tá pointe acu siúd mar is ar an Roinn atá an dualgas. Eascraíonn chuile shórt as an Roinn. Ba chóir smaoineamh ar an rud atá á rá linn inniu. Thug an Coimisinéir Teanga a thuairim, tar éis imscrúdú cuimsitheach a dhéanamh, go bhfuil an dlí á bhriseadh ag Roinn Stáit. Ní dúirt sé go raibh sé á bhriseadh ag éinne eile agus ní bhacann an Roinn sin le comhairle dlí a fháil. Ansin, níl geallúint á tabhairt tráthnóna go bhfaighfear comhairle dlí. Cén mhaith dúinn a bheith ag suí anseo má tá sé fíor nár bacadh leis é sin a dhéanamh? Tá sé craiceáilte. Tá sé in am againn coinneáil go dtí an pointe agus gan a bheith ag glacadh le freagraí nach mbaineann le hábhair.

Chairman

Níl muid tar éis glacadh le haon fhreagra go dtí seo. Tá ceisteanna á gcur agus tá an tAire Stáit ag tabhairt freagraí. Is féidir linn glacadh nó gan glacadh leis na freagraí sin. Tá comhaltaí eile----

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Is ceann de na rudaí a tharlaíonn----

Chairman

Tá comhaltaí eile ag iarraidh ceisteanna a chur.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Tá a fhios agam é sin ach níl mise ach ag iarraidh freagra ar cheist amháin.

Chairman

Tuigim. Tá an frustrachas céanna orm.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Tá mé 30 bliain timpeall an Tí seo agus riamh nuair a cuireadh ceist dheacair ar Aire nach raibh líofa sa Ghaeilge, is cuma cén ceist, bhí leagan amach de fhreagraí aige nó aici ar chuile cheist nár bhain leis an gceist a chuireadh. Léadh sé nó sí amach ceann i ndiaidh a chéile ach níor fhreagraíodh sé nó sí ceist riamh. Tá dhá cheist agam. Fágfaidh mé air seo agus imeoidh mé as an mbealach.

Chairman

Ní gá imeacht.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Tá dhá cheist agam. An bhfuair an Roinn comhairle dlí? Dé réir mar a thuigim, is í an fhreagra atá air sin ná "ní bhfuair". An bhfuil sé i gceist aici dul ag an Ard-Aighne - ní ag éinne eile - agus comhairle dlí a fháil? An dtiocfaidh an tAire Stáit ar ais leis an gcomhairle dlí ón Ard-Aighne? Nuair atá sé sin déanta, beimid soiléir an raibh sárú dlí ann.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Ar an bpointe sin, de réir mar a thuigim ón méid atá léite agam, ghlac an Roinn go raibh a ndualgais faoin scéim teanga sáraithe aici. Ní raibh aon ghá dul i dteagmháil leis an Ard-Aighne agus ní dhearna an Roinn aon achomharc do na cúirteanna. Ghlac sí go raibh a cuid dualgas sáraithe aici. Tá sé sin soiléir.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

An nglacann an Roinn leis go raibh an dlí sáraithe aici?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

As I have said, those seven actions were actioned-----

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

No, I did not ask about the actions. An raibh an dlí sáraithe?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

-----and we are in compliance. The Department has assured me that we are in compliance with this. The reason I am in-----

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Is the Department in compliance with the law?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

-----here today is in relation to the issue around the Eircode system that was highlighted by an Coimisinéir Teanga. In good faith, the Department contacted An Post, which is in charge of the addresses that are given to Capita, addresses which have to align with the postal service. An Post said that it has to provide the English and the Irish versions and to keep them on its database to ensure next-day delivery. That was the issue raised by an Coimisinéir Teanga. I appreciate the concerns and frustrations in that regard. That is why I am here today to listen to the views of the committee.

As I have said, as part of the contract coming to an end, we will need to hear whether the Eircode systems, the delivery systems and the systems to ensure people are getting their mail delivered in their preferred language, particularly in Gaeltacht areas, are working well. That is the reason I am here today. I also wish to highlight, make visible and be very transparent about the issues within An Post with regard to the obligations ComReg has placed on it and which it must comply with to facilitate next-day delivery. That is the issue here. I am also here to outline the interaction and engagement between the Department, GeoDirectory, Conradh na Gaeilge and all of the stakeholders to ensure the GeoDirectory database is kept up to date in respect of Irish addresses. Where there are discrepancies, people must have a direct line to ensure that information is updated and given to Capita to ensure we have the proper Irish placenames in Gaeltacht areas.

To answer the Deputy's question, we are in compliance. In his implementation report in September 2021, an Coimisinéir Teanga acknowledged the genuine effort made by the Department and highlighted the specific issue with regard to Eircode having both an English and Irish version of addresses. The default position for people putting in their addresses in Gaeltacht areas is for the Irish address to be used. With regard to cases where that does not happen, that interaction with GeoDirectory and the Irish bodies is continually improving the system. The issue with An Post relates to the obligations ComReg has placed on it. That is what it is telling us. It cannot remove the English version from its mail sorting database. That is the key issue. I am here today to answer those concerns.

Again, I am obviously also here to listen to all members. I say that to be very clear. I have colleagues and officials with me to discuss the progress of the Irish language within the Department. We have an official Irish language officer coming on board next month. We are here to listen to all of the genuine concerns, to make sure the Eircode system is fit for purpose and acknowledges the need to have addresses in Irish in Gaeltacht areas, and to look at what we can do around that, including in the future as we look at future contracts.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Dúirt an Teachta Connolly gur admhaíodh ar ball nach raibh an dlí á chomhlíonadh. Anois, tá an tAire Stáit á rá go raibh an dlí á chomhlíonadh. Is faoi sin atá an rud seo ar fad. Tá sé an-simplí. Níl mise ag rá go bhfuil an dlí nó an plean teanga ciallmhar. Ní sin an pointe. Is é an Roinn a tharraing an plean teanga agus a d'aontaigh é. Is ceist shimplí an cheist atá agam. Tá an Roinn ag rá go bhfuil sí ag comhlíonadh an dlí ach tá sí ag rá é sin gan aon chomhairle a fháil ó Oifig an Ard-Aighne. Nuair a d'admhaigh sí é sin, lorg mise go lorgódh an Roinn tuairim ón Ard-Aighne. Níl mé chun dul ar strae ná na ceisteanna eile ar fad faoi logainmneacha gur mhaith liom a phlé a chur. Uair amháin eile agus don uair dheireanach, an bhfuil sé i gceist ag an Aire Stáit comhairle an Ard-Aighne a lorg? An bhfuil gníomhaíochtaí na Roinne ag comhlíonadh an dlí i gcomhthéacs an phlean teanga a d'aontaigh sí?

Sin í an cheist shimplí lom atá le plé de réir mar a thuigimse agus níl aon cheist eile le plé.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

I can confirm that the 2018 to 2021 scheme was consulted on, including with the Coimisinéir Teanga, and no issue was raised with its provision. That provision was that the Department would put in place the necessary arrangements to ensure official placenames of Gaeltacht areas, as declared by the Minister in the Placenames (Centres of Population and Districts) Order 2005, would continue to be used as the default for corporate purposes, including for appropriate legislative corporate and statistical purposes.

Chairman

An cheist atá ag an Teachta Ó Cuív ná an bhfuil an Roinn sásta comhairle dlí a lorg ón Ard-Aighne.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

An cheist ná an bhfuil an gearán a rinneadh chuig an gCoimisinéir Teanga agus toradh an imscrúdaithe ceart nó mícheart? Bheadh i bhfad níos mó taithí sa dlí ag an Teachta Connolly ná mise, agus de réir mar a thuigimse, sin í an cheist.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

The issue with the Coimisinéir Teanga was around Eircode postcodes and the ask was to remove the English version from the GeoDirectory for Gaeltacht areas-----

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Not from the GeoDirectory but from the Eircode postcode.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

Which is Capita. As the Deputy knows, GeoDirectory supplies the address to Capita. GeoDirectory is a subsidiary of An Post and it has to get it from An Post because Eircode postcodes have to align with the postal address system, which comes from An Post. That is the issue here. Again, the Department endeavoured-----

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

That is not the issue here.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

-----to resolve this but that is what came back from An Post.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

D'fhéadfadh GeoDirectory an t-eolas a fháil, agus i gcás na Gaeltachta dúirt an Roinn go ndéanfadh sí an leagan Béarla a fhágáil ar lár i gcás na Gaeltachta. Níl mise ag rá gur smaoineamh mhaith a bhí i bplean na Roinne ach sin plean na Roinne.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

Is the Deputy saying GeoDirectory would put the English aside?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

It is nothing to with GeoDirectory but Eircode. De réir mar a thuigim, gheall an Roinn nuair a thiocfadh sé ag éileamh chonradh gur é an leagan Gaeilge amháin a d'úsáidfí sa Ghaeltacht, agus is faoi Eircode a tháinig sé seo thíos.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

It would be the default position-----

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I did not say anything about default. Ní shin atá sa phlean.

Chairman

Tá ceist agam atá gaolta leis seo. An raibh aon phíosa sa bhunchonradh le Eircode mar gheall ar seoltaí?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

I might bring Mr. King in on the contract because I was not in the Department at the time.

Chairman

Tuigim. An fhadhb bunúsach, go bhfios domsa, ná nach raibh aon rud sa chonradh ó thús, agus ó shin i leith tá ag éirí le GeoDirectory, Eircode, An Post nó pé dream atá ag cur an trealaimh seo le chéile iarracht a dhéanamh dallamullóg a tharraingt orainne ar fad. Tá muidne ag déileáil leis seo, áit atá An Post ag insint bréige agus nach bhfuil sé in ann déileáil le córas le seoltaí i mBéarla agus i nGaeilge ag an am céanna. Is ríomhaire é. Ordaítear do ríomhaire cad le déanamh; ní duine é. Tá sé i bhfad Éireann níos éasca ná mar a ligeann sé air. Ansin tá An Post ag tabhairt céime chun tosaigh do ComReg thar an dualgas reachtúil atá air. Tá i bhfad níos mó ná comhairle dhlí ag teastáil ó thaobh na méide atá ráite ag an Teachta Ó Cuív. Tá a lán comhairle eile maidir leis an mbunchonradh agus má raibh sé ag teacht salach ar dhualgais maidir leis an nGaeilge chomh maith céanna. An bhfuil Ben King ag iarraidh freagra a thabhairt air sin? Aithním go bhfuil an Seanadóir Clifford-Lee tar éis teacht isteach.

Senator Lorraine Clifford-Lee

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire Stáit as an gcur i láthair. Níor thug sí freagra ceart do mo chomhghleacaí, an Teachta Ó Cuív. An bhfuil an Roinn sásta comhairle an Ard-Aighne a lorg?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

I will ask Mr. King to come in to answer those questions in case there is anything I left out.

Mr. Ben King

Can those questions be repeated for me?

Senator Lorraine Clifford-Lee

An bhfuil an Roinn sásta comhairle an Ard-Aighne a lorg? Is ceist bhunúsach sin. Tá an Roinn sásta nó níl sí.

Mr. Ben King

My Irish does not exist very well. Would the Senator say that in English?

Senator Lorraine Clifford-Lee

Nílim sásta é sin a dhéanamh.

Mr. Ben King

I do not have a translation.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

There were previous questions. Is Mr. King getting the messages that are being sent to him?

Mr. Ben King

I am not hearing anything.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

He does not have any translation.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Cén mhaith é a bheith ar líne gan aistriúchán ar bith a bheith ar fáil? Cén fáth nach bhfuil aistriúchán ar fáil? Níl aon leithscéal leis sin. Tá an rud seo náireach.

Chairman

Ní raibh a fhios againn nach raibh aistriúchán ar fáil.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Léifidh mise amach píosa spéisiúil as Béarla:

A meeting was held between the Department and myself on 27 May 2019. I confirmed the Office's interpretation of the statutory provision, that is, that the relevant Gaeltacht place names should be in Irish only on the Eircode system. I informed it, in a letter two days later, that it was my understanding from the meeting that the Department accepted this interpretation.

Game, set and match.

Mr. Ben King

At that meeting we discussed how we can solve the problem of businesses using English addresses when they are communicating with people. This was the concern the Coimisinéir Teanga had in terms of the complaints he was getting. During that meeting we looked at the options for how we could have Irish only in Gaeltacht placenames. We agreed at the meeting that we would write to An Post and ask it if it could take out the English addresses and only use Irish addresses in Gaeltacht areas. We hoped that would assist in the reduction of complaints to the Minister or the Coimisinéir Teanga on communications with English addresses. That is what we agreed at that meeting and we subsequently wrote to An Post. An Post replied to us to say that was impossible because of its sorting system and how it worked. It also mentioned a broader issue, namely, that there is no legal form for addresses in the State and that there are large variations of English and Irish addresses, not to mention that 35% of the addresses in the State are the same as other addresses. To resolve that issue, An Post has variations of addresses and the English addresses in its database. When a letter for a Gaeltacht area arrives in English, the scanning software is able to pick it up and automatically sort it. We told the commissioner at that meeting that we would write to An Post to see if it was possible for the software to work with Irish only and that was the answer we got.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Níl aon bhaint ag An Post leis sin. Is faoi Eircode atá sé.

Senator Lorraine Clifford-Lee

Ní bhfuair mé freagra ar an gceist maidir leis an Ard-Aighne. An bhfuil éinne sásta freagra a thabhairt? An bhfuil an Roinn sásta dul chuig an Ard-Aighne nó nach bhfuil sé? Ní dlíodóir í an Aire Stáit agus níl a fhios agam an bhfuil aon dlíodóirí ina Roinn ag tabhairt na comhairle sin go bhfuil dualgais na Roinne á gcomhlíonadh aige. Is sórt ombudsman an Stáit é an Coimisinéir Teanga agus tá sé den tuairim go bhfuil an dlí á shárú. Is ionann cearta teanga agus cearta daonna. B'fhéidir nach bhfuil sé sin ar eolas ag an Aire Stáit ach tá an dlí á shárú. Tá an Roinn den tuairim nach bhfuil an dlí á shárú agus mar sin ba chóir dó comhairle ón Ard-Aighne a fháil chun an cheist sin a réiteach. An bhfuil an Roinn sásta glacadh leis an moladh sin?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

I can go back to the Department again on what can be done. Members have mentioned Eircode but the problem relates to An Post's position on this and its next-day delivery. I can come back to the-----

Senator Lorraine Clifford-Lee

Níl tú sásta freagra cruinn a thabhairt.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

-----Department on this and engage with the language commissioner on this issue. I can come back on that.

Senator Lorraine Clifford-Lee

De ghnáth, faigheann Ranna Stáit comhairle ón Ard-Aighne. Sin an gnáth-chóras. Níl an tAire Stáit sásta glacadh leis an ngnáth-chóras.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

I am open to getting the clarifications needed on this. As I said, it was important for me to come to the committee today to outline the position of An Post, which explains the reason the Eircode system has both English and Irish addresses on it. That is not to say it is satisfactory. I am not saying that. I completely concur with the members and that is why this is part of our engagement with the committee. This engagement will be ongoing, particularly over the next 12 months as we negotiate a new contract. We need to address how this can work best in the future, as well as the other issues around private companies using their own addresses or translating their own addresses, which is separate to the matter the Senator has raised today. I will give her that commitment and will consider getting clarification on this to make sure everything is done correctly.

Senator Lorraine Clifford-Lee

An ceist airgid í? Tuigim an pointe faoin gcaighdeán seirbhíse agus tuigim an fhadhb a bhaineann le bogearraí ach muna bpiocann na bogearraí suas na seoltaí, caithfidh An Post an fhadhb sin a réiteach agus daoine a chur ar fáil chun na seoltaí a phiocadh suas go fisiciúil. An ceist airgid í?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

This is where An Post would be able to clarify its own operations but my understanding is that the software detects the address and does the matching. Where an address is not matched, there are approximately 20 people who will manually go through letters to make sure they are delivered and An Post knows exactly where they are going. The software is one part of it but there are also staff there. It is not a staffing issue but an operational issue for An Post. It has said that it cannot guarantee next-day delivery. I cannot speak for the operational matters of An Post as to what exactly that entails.

Senator Lorraine Clifford-Lee

Tá sé soiléir mar sin gur fadhb airgid í. Níl siad sásta níos mó daoine a chur ar fáil chun na seoltaí sin a phiocadh suas. Sin í an fhadhb.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

That could be the case but I cannot speak for An Post. We wrote to it and it said it could not guarantee next-day delivery and live up to the standards set out by its own regulator, ComReg.

Senator Lorraine Clifford-Lee

An ndearna an tAire Stáit aon iniúchadh ar an bhfreagra sin? Ar chuir sí ceisteanna breise ar aghaidh chuig An Post faoi sin?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

The Department met with the Coimisinéir Teanga on this very issue to try to resolve it. Mr. King outlined the level-----

Senator Lorraine Clifford-Lee

Táim ag caint faoin bhfreagra ó An Post. Dúirt an tAire Stáit nach féidir leis na bogearraí na seoltaí a phiocadh suas. Tá scata daoine ann. Ba chóir go gcuirfeadh An Post níos mó daoine ann agus réiteodh sé sin an fhadhb sin.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

Officials in my Department met with An Post staff. I do not want to speak for Mr. King so maybe he will come in on that engagement with An Post.

Mr. Ben King

We met with An Post to see if it could update its database and make changes to it. We were informed at that meeting, like the Minister of State said earlier, that the automatic sortation software scans the incoming letter and compares it against the database. If it finds a match, it gets sorted into a separate area. If it does not get sorted, it goes into a manual sortation system where staff have to go through the letters one by one and manually sort them. An Post also said that its database holds variations of different addresses to allow for a higher rate of matching. That information is in both English and Irish and it needs both in order to hit its delivery targets.

Senator Lorraine Clifford-Lee

Bíonn leisce orm Béarla a úsáid sa choiste seo ach for clarity I will speak in English. I am very reluctant to do so in this committee but I want Mr. King to be clear about the question I asked. We have heard this story about An Post’s software about ten times now. The Minister of State told us that there are around 20 people in An Post who will physically pick up the mail and sort and match it if the software does not. The Minister of State has said that next-day delivery cannot be guaranteed if the system only uses Irish addresses. If enough people were provided by An Post to manually sort the mail, why could it not guarantee next-day delivery where only Irish addresses were used?

Mr. Ben King

That is a question we could certainly ask An Post but-----

Senator Lorraine Clifford-Lee

Why has the Department not asked it? We are talking about a Department failing in its legal duties. Why has this question not been asked? When An Post stated that its software system cannot pick up Irish addresses, did the witnesses just accept this answer and shrug their shoulders?

Mr. Ben King

We are increasing the number of Irish addresses in the GeoDirectory database, which feeds back into An Post. The technology is an operational matter for An Post. It is the expert in mail delivery. The Department would not have that expertise in terms of how the software works, why it works the way it does and how that ties in with its matrices of deliveries. An Post also informed us that it is looking to introduce technology for postal workers whereby they would have a handheld device that would recognise the address itself. We could seek further clarification and information on that technology, which would further automate the systems for delivery on the ground. When we spoke with An Post, we asked for explanations of how the software and the sortation system work but we would not be experts in that, other than the fact that An Post said it would delay its delivery of mail.

Senator Lorraine Clifford-Lee

Mr. King says the witnesses are not experts but we have heard a couple of explanations stating that the system does not pick up these addresses and there are 20 people there who will physically recognise an address. That is the Department’s understanding of it and that is what it has told us but now that we have asked further questions the witnesses are saying they do not actually understand it.

Will the non-appearance of the people who were asked to appear at this committee impact on any future tendering? It is the height of disrespect, particularly when we have a report from the Coimisinéir Teanga. It is not often he puts a report before the Houses of the Oireachtas. How will their refusal to come here impact any other contracts they may enter into?

Mr. Ben King

We have to review where we are going with Eircodes next. As the Minister of State said, the contract expires at the end of next year and there is an option for the Minister to extend the contract to Capita for a further five years. These issues that have arisen will be taken into account when we do the full review. We worked with the Coimisinéir Teanga at the beginning of the project and the 2015 report highlighted the fact that there was a poor level of translation of Irish addresses and some mistakes in the GeoDirectory database. GeoDirectory and Capita worked together with logainm.ie to update the database on a regular basis. Our understanding from GeoDirectory is that that process continues today, and was also continuing when the 2019 report by an Coimsinéir Teanga came out. GeoDirectory has received another update from logainm.ie which covers 2020 and 2021.

Those addresses will be updated by GeoDirectory and fed straight into Eircode, which will then update the database as soon as those data are received. That information will be fed into the Eircode system.

Senator Lorraine Clifford-Lee

On that point, there was a €35 million cost for the whole Eircode system and only €200,000 was assigned to updating the GeoDirectory database. That is a tiny amount. It is not even 1% of the cost. It is much less than that. Does Mr. King think it is satisfactory to dedicate only €200,000, out of a project worth €35 million, to update the GeoDirectory database?

Mr. Ben King

I am not too sure in terms of that figure but essentially-----

Senator Lorraine Clifford-Lee

That is on the public record.

Mr. Ben King

What I was going to say as regards the annual costings for GeoDirectory, which is on public record, was that just short of €1 million is paid to GeoDirectory annually for licensing of its database through Capita. Capita also pays royalties but that is for use of its data, it is not for updating. The updating of the database is GeoDirectory's responsibility.

Senator Lorraine Clifford-Lee

I was talking about the €200,000 out of the €35 million project that is provided for the logainmneacha updating of the GeoDirectory database. Is that sufficient?

Mr. Ben King

I was not aware of those figures. However, in terms how GeoDirectory and logainm.ie exchange and update data, I know there were discussions with GeoDirectory and logainm.ie in terms of the licensing of GeoDirectory data but that matter was left to them because they are the relevant parties.

Senator Lorraine Clifford-Lee

Will Mr. King give a commitment that when a new contract is negotiated, a sufficient amount will be put into the details of the tender documents and the contract because the current amount is clearly insufficient? If the Department allowed a private company to decide what it was going to spend on this, it clearly feeds into an sárú ar an dlí, the breaking of the law, that the Coimisinéir Teanga identified. Is Mr. King happy to give a commitment that this specific issue will be looked at and incorporated into any future contract?

Mr. Ben King

We will give a commitment to working on this. It is An Post that will provide the postal addresses. One of the reasons we have An Post is because it is the authority on addressing. We will make sure that-----

Senator Lorraine Clifford-Lee

Can I come in because I think Mr. King might be a bit confused about what I asked? There is so much confusion going on here today that I am getting confused by it all. Mr. King said that the company, GeoDirectory, has a private arrangement with logainm.ie in relation to the filling of the GeoDirectory database, and that if GeoDirectory only spends €200,000 on that, that is their business. Is Mr. King happy to put details into any future tender documents or contract entered into on behalf of the State, specifically in regard to the funding that would be put in place to fill the obvious gaps in the GeoDirectory database?

Mr. Ben King

I know the answer to the Deputy's question, but GeoDirectory is the An Post database. In future contracts, we will look at the number of Irish language addresses in the An Post database, and we will take that into account for new contracts going forward, which will then feed into the GeoDirectory database. We give an undertaking to deal with that as an issue on the An Post side.

Chairman

Táim ag bogadh ar aghaidh go dtí an Teachta Aindrias Ó Muineacháin. Tiocfaidh mé ar ais chuig an Seanadóir Clifford-Lee más gá.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

Fáiltím roimh na finnéithe agus gabhaim buíochas leo as an eolas a cuireadh ar fáil, agus tá an-chuid ann. Níl ach ceist nó dhó agam agus tá roinnt acu pléite cheana féin againn. Is rud neamhghnách é go mbeadh an Coimisinéir Teanga ag leagan tuairisc os comhair an Oireachtais. Ní tharlaíonn sé rómhinic in aon chor agus is cúis mhór imní é. Ní fheadar an nglacann an Roinn leis gur rud neamhghnách é agus b'fhéidir gur chóir lámh a chur in airde go bhfuil rud éigin difriúil anseo.

Tá an tuairisc neamhghnách seo leagtha os comhair an Oireachtais. Deir an coimisinéir go bhfuil an-iarracht á déanamh agus, in ainneoin sin go léir, go bhfuil sé dubh ach cloisimid inniu "No, no, tá sé bán". An raibh aon chomhairle faighte mar gheall ar cibé a bhfuil sé - dubh nó bán? Tá sé soiléir go bhfuil easaontas idir an Roinn agus an coimisinéir mar gheal ar an bhfuil an dlí á shárú. An raibh teagmháil ag an Roinn leis an gcoimisinéir tar éis dó an tuairisc a fhoilsiú a deir go raibh an dlí á shárú? Tá mé tar éis éisteacht le han-chuid den phlé inniu agus is ceist sách casta í. Ar ghlac an Roinn leis an seans soiléiriú a fháil leis an gcoimisinéir cad go díreach a bhí ann nó an raibh aon teagmháil ann? Tá an tuairisc ann anois a deir go bhfuil an dlí á shárú. Tá "dubh" á rá ag an gcoimisinéir agus "bán" á rá ag an Aire Stáit. Cad iad na hiarrachtaí atá déanta chun é sin a cheartú ó foilsíodh an tuairisc?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

I thank the Deputy for his comments. The frustrations around the address system are clear and the fact that the address has to be in both languages. I commit to engaging again with the Department and the Coimisinéir Teanga on this. What we want to do is resolve these issues in the immediate term and in looking at the next contract. The feedback will be very important for the drafting of that and I know officials are acutely listening. We endeavour to make sure the Irish language is represented in relation to Eircodes, that people can get their mail addressed in the language of their preference. That is what I commit to today. I will go back and talk to an Coimisinéir Teanga again about how we can progress this.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

Dúirt an tAire Stáit go mbeadh sí ag filleadh ar an gcoimisinéir. An é sin le rá, tar éis don choimisiún an tuairisc a fhoilsiú a dúirt go raibh sé dubh agus an Roinn den tuairim go raibh sé bán, go raibh teagmháil roimhe sin leis an gcoimisinéir nó an raibh aon iarracht teagmháil á dhéanamh nó aon “rounding off” den chearnóg sin?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

Yes. There was a huge amount of engagement with an Coimisinéir Teanga as well as written correspondence between the Department and the coimisinéir and, as Mr. King said, engagement with An Post about this. The Department was endeavouring to resolve this by contacting An Post to look at what could be done in addressing this issue. The engagement will continue.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

An raibh an coimisinéir ag seasamh an fhóid? Ar ghlac an coimisinéir leis sin nó an ndúirt sé go raibh sé cinnte go bhfuil sé dubh?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

The Coimisinéir Teanga was trying to find a solution to this by working and engaging with the Department. The Department committed to writing to and engaging with An Post in relation to this. I do not want to speak on behalf of the officials. Mr. King can come back in again. However, there has been significant engagement. That is why I am here today, to outline the difficulties from An Post's point of view, but also to listen to the concerns of members of the committee and others to ensure that we have a viable solution going forward and that the next contract addresses many of these concerns.

I assure the Deputy our engagement will be ongoing.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

Tá an tAire Stáit an-dírithe ar an gcéad chonradh eile ach, idir an dá linn, tá gach cosúlacht go bhfuil an dlí á shárú agus gur gá é sin a cheartú, fiú roimh an gcéad chonradh eile. Glacaim leis go bhfuil difríocht mhór idir cad atá á rá ag an Roinn, is é sin go bhfuil sé bán, agus tuairisc an choimisinéara atá á rá gur rud neamhghnách é agus go bhfuil sé dubh. Fillfimid air arís.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Rinne mé dearmad a rá go bhfuil, i ndeireadh na dála, cothromaíocht inscne i gceist anseo. Tá triúr ban os ár gcomhair gan aon fhear. Tá cothromaíocht faighte againn faoi dheireadh, buíochas leis an mbandia. Chun bheith féaráilte don Aire Stáit, ní raibh sí taobh thiar den rud seo agus ní raibh sí sa Roinn. Tuigim go bhfuil sé deacair di. Tá frustrachas orm, ach go háirithe, agus ligfidh mé do na comhaltaí eile a rá leo féin. Tá sé ag dul ar aghaidh chomh fada sin, ó 2015, ar a laghad. Is é an tuiscint atá agamsa anois ar Oifig an Choimisinéara Teanga ná go ndéanann sé a dhícheall gan tuarascáil mar seo a chur os comhair na Dála. Oibríonn sé as lámh a chéile le cibé cén Roinn. Tá sé admhaithe agus tá sé ráite agam go ndúirt an coimisinéir go bhfuil iarracht ionraic á dhéanamh ag an Roinn anois. Thug sé an méid ama sin, d'eisigh sé tuarascáil, rinne sé monatóireacht ar an tuarascáil, agus ansin é ráite go neamhbhalbh nach bhfuil dul chun cinn déanta in ainneoin na n-iarrachtaí ón Roinn. Ní raibh an dara rogha aige ach an tuarascáil a chur os ár gcomhair.

Is dócha go bhfuil beagáinín mheascán mearaí anseo inniu. Tuigim an cheist atá ag an Teachta Ó Cuív, ach ní dóigh liom go bhfuil gá le comhairle ón Ard-Aighne mar tá sé ráite agus admhaithe ag an Roinn nár chomhlíon sí an dualgas a bhí uirthi. Tá rud difriúil á rá ag an Aire Stáit, go bhfuil sé comhlíonta anois. Níl a fhios agam faoi sin. Ba mhaith liom cloisteáil ón gCoimisinéir Teanga an bhfuil na moltaí uile comhlíonta. Beimid i dteagmháil leis an gCoimisinéir Teanga. Ní féidir dul ar ais. Tá sé admhaithe ag an Roinn nár chomhlíon sí an dualgas a bhí uirthi ó thaobh a bheith ag tógáil dhá rud san áireamh: Acht na dTeangacha Oifigiúla, 2003; agus an scéim teanga.

Bhí dul chun cinn sa mhéid agus go raibh siad ag obair as lámh a chéile chun réiteach a fháil. Bhí an cruinniú seo dhá bhliain ó shin in 2019, agus ag eascairt as an gcruinniú sin, scríobh an Roinn chuig An bPost chun réiteach a fháil ach tá teip air sin, in ainneoin go bhfuil sé admhaithe agus glactha ag an Roinn gurb é an réiteach ná go mbeadh na sloinnte i nGaeilge amháin sa Ghaeltacht. Tá teip ar An Post é sin a dhéanamh de bharr cúiseanna margaidh agus cúiseanna trádála.

Ní féidir glacadh leis sin áfach. Tá dlí ann. Tá dualgas ar an Roinn. Is é an frustrachas ná an méid ama atá tógtha. B'fhéidir gur chéim chun cinn inniu ag breathnú ar an rud. Is cinnte go mbeidh tuarascáil againne, ach táimid ag caint faoi chearta bunúsacha arís. Is é sin an rud. Ní thuigeann an Roinn é sin. Níl aon éalú as an bhfreagracht ná na hoibleagáidí atá uirthi. Má táimid ag dul an treo ceart inniu tar éis an chruinnithe seo, cuirim fáilte roimhe sin. Tá mo dhóthain ráite agam.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Is í an tAire Stáit an Roinn. Cuireadh é sin ina luí ormsa fada ó shin gurbh é an tAire an Roinn. Is é sin an socrú atá sa Stát seo. Tá na státseirbhísigh, mar atá ráite ina n-ainmneacha, mar státseirbhísigh. Níl aon mhaith a rá go bhfiafróidh sí den Roinn. Is ise an Roinn. Is fúithi atá sé cinneadh a dhéanamh faoi seo. Tháinig an coimisinéir ar an tuairim, sé bliana ó shin, gur sáraíodh an dlí. Is é an fáth go ndúirt sé é sin ná nár comhlíonadh forálacha plean teanga a bhí ag an Roinn. Nuair a fuair an Roinn toradh an imscrúdaithe, is léir nach bhfuair sí comhairle dlí ón Ard-Aighne agus nach bhfuil sé sin faighte fós. Ag breathnú ar na miontuairiscí a fuaireamar, is léir gur admhaigh an Roinn i dtosach báire go raibh an dlí á shárú. In 2019, díreach sula cuireadh an rud seo faoi bhráid an Oireachtais, dúirt an Roinn go raibh sí sásta go raibh sí á chomhlíonadh. Ag am ar bith, áfach, níl aon fhianaise ag aon duine go bhfuarthas comhairle dlí ón Ard-Aighne. Is cleachtas dochreidte dona é sin do Roinn ar bith. Aon uair a rinne líomhain in aghaidh aon Roinn, a raibh eolas agam air, fuarthas comhairle dlí. Níl aon ghealltanas á thabhairt go lorgófar comhairle dlí sa chás seo.

Níl mise a rá go gcaithfidh go bhfuil ceart ag tuairim an choimisinéara. Is cuimhin liom cás a bhí sách gearr don bhaile don bheirt againne atá mar Theachtaí Dála do Ghaillimh Thiar nuair a thug an tOmbudsman tuairim nó breithiúnas agus d'fhoilsigh sí imscrúdú a pléadh sa Dáil. Ba é tuairim an Ard-Aighne go raibh an tOmbudsman mícheart agus go raibh an rud a bhí sí ag moladh in aghaidh an dlí. Má deireann an tArd-Aighne, mar chomhairleoir dlí an Rialtais, leis an Roinn go bhfuil an rud atá ar bun dleathach agus go bhfuil an Coimisinéir Teanga mícheart, glacfaidh mé leis sin. Sa chás go ndeireann an tArd-Aighne, go teicniúil agus b'fhéidir trí dhearmad a rinneadh sa Roinn, go bhfuil sé mídhleathach, tá dhá bhealach leis seo a réiteach. Beidh mise anseo, ní leis an GeoDirectory ach le Eircode. Is iad an dá bhealach ná nósanna a athrú agus cloí leis an dlí nó, agus tá sé seo an-simplí, ó tharla go bhfuil an tAire Stáit ag bord den Rialtas, an dlí a athrú trí Bhille a thabhairt faoi bhráid an Oireachtais ionas go n-achtóimid é.

Is é an t-aon sárú atá á dhéanamh anseo ná an t-aon ceann nach bhfuil inghlactha ar chor ar bith, is é sin, nuair a fhaigheann Roinn tuairim ón gcoimisinéir go bhfuil rud mídhleathach á dhéanamh aici, nach mbacann sí leis an ngnáthphróiseas a leantar i gcás mar sin, is é sin, comhairle dlí a lorg ón Ard-Aighne an bhfuil sé ceart nó mícheart agus feidhmiú as sin amach. Tá nós ann a rá nach é sin atá i gceist ag an Roinn. Má tá sé scríofa ar bhealach go bhfuil ceangal dlí ann, ní féidir le Roinn, in aon ábhar faoin spéir, feidhmiú ar an mbealach sin.

Tá sé go hiomlán is go huile mícheart. Sin an méid atá le rá agam faoin rud seo inniu agus an chnámh spairne atá agam ná go ndúradh "Muise, muise". Bheadh súil agam go bhfaighinn geallúint ón Aire Stáit roimh dheireadh an chruinnithe go lorgóidh an Roinn comhairle ón Ard-Aighne go hoifigiúil faoin gceist a d'ardaigh an Coimisinéir Teanga; is é sin i dtaobh an Eircode, ní i dtaobh GeoDirectory ná An Post. Tuigim go gcaithfidh sé a bheith in ann litreacha i mBéarla a sheoladh agus níl aon fhadhb agam leis sin. An bhfuil an dlí á shárú? Má tá, cén réiteach atá ann? Ceann de na réitigh a d'fhéadfadh a bheith air seo ná an dlí a athrú le go mbeadh an rud atá ar bun dleathach. Sin scéal eile ach sin an méid atá mise ag iarraidh. An bhfuil an Roinn sásta comhairle an Ard-Aighne a lorg i dtaobh na ceiste seo? Ó tharla gur an tAire Stáit atá anseo ba cheart go mbeadh sí in ann freagra a thabhairt dom mar is ceist di agus di amháin atá ann.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

I gave a commitment earlier that I would go back and that I will seek that legal advice. It is important to say that I want a solution here and to move forward. Whatever is needed on that will be done and I know the Department and the officials have been engaging with the Coimisinéir Teanga and all the relevant stakeholders such as GeoDirectory to try to find a solution to this. I will certainly give that commitment-----

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Ar smaoinigh siad ar athrú ar an dlí?

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

We will go back and engage with legal advice and with an Coimisinéir Teanga. I want this resolved; that is the endgame on my position within the Department. The officials in the Department also want to ensure they are living up to the standards on the Irish language within the Department. I will engage on anything we can do in order to progress that and I will try to push it. I am giving the Deputy that commitment.

Chairman

Caithfidh mé cúpla mionrud a dhéanamh sula cuirfidh mé críoch leis an gcruinniú. Ba mhaith liom comhaltaí a chur ar an eolas nach ann do Choimisiún na Logainmneacha a thuilleadh. Tá sé críochnaithe agus imithe agus pé rud a bhí fágtha de fuarthas réidh leis in Acht na dTeangacha Oifigiúla (Leasú), 2021 anuraidh. Tá an coimisiún féin imithe agus tá coiste agus www.logainm.ie ann ina áit. Theastaigh uaim comhaltaí a chur ar an eolas mar gheall air sin mar luadh sa díospóireacht é; ní critíc é sin.

Tá a lán ceisteanna ann a raibh na finnéithe ag triail a fhreagairt agus ní orthu atá an locht. Tá an locht ar GeoDirectory, nach raibh sásta teacht os ár gcomhair. Sa deireadh thiar thall tá mise chun comhairle dhlí a fháil thar cheann an choiste agus cuireadh eile a thabhairt dó teacht os ár gcomhair. Is subsidiary de chomhlacht Stáit é agus níor chóir go mbeadh eagla air teacht os ár gcomhair. Níl muidne ach ag lorg freagraí ar cheisteanna agus déanamh cinnte de nach mbeidh dlí á shárú amach anseo. Tá an rud céanna fíor ó thaobh Capita, áit a bhaineann sé le Eircode. Má tá conradh ag comhlacht seirbhís Stáit a chur ar fáil, ba cheart go mbeadh sé ag teacht os comhair coiste na Dála. Mar sin, leanfaimid an cheist sin. Beimid ag lorg tuairimí an Choimisinéara Teanga chomh maith. Mar sin, níl críoch leis an ábhar seo. Má fhaigheann an Roinn comhairle dhlí, is féidir scríobh chugainn faoi agus d'fhéadfadh an tAire Stáit teacht os ár gcomhair arís. Bheadh muid buíoch as sin agus d'fhéadfaimis cinnte a dhéanamh de go bhfuil deireadh leis an gceist seo agus go bhfuil sé i gceart sula mbeidh comórtas do chonradh eile an bhliain seo chugainn. Níl éinne ag iarraidh go mbeadh fadhbanna ann, ach go háirithe in áit atá cuma ar an scéal go bhfuil an dlí á shárú ag comhlacht Stáit, ag Roinn Rialtais nó ag comhlacht atá conradh bronnta air ag an Stát.

Táim buíoch do na comhaltaí a bhí i láthair, don Aire Stáit, an Teachta Naughton, agus do na finnéithe eile ón gcuid den Roinn a dhéanann déileáil le Eircode: Aisling Nic Ghrádaigh, a bhí anseo linn; Gráinne Ní Thuama; agus Ben King.

Cuireadh an comhchoiste ar athló ar 3.16 p.m. go dtí 1.30 p.m. Dé Céadaoin, an 9 Márta 2022.