We are dealing with the 1998 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts, Votes 26, 27, 28 and 29, Department of Education and Science. I welcome the Secretary General of the Department, Mr. John Dennehy. We have two John Dennehys with us today, one of whom is a Kerryman. Will you introduce your officials?
1998 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts.
Votes 26, 27, 28 and 29 - Education and Science.
Mr. J. Dennehy (Secretary General, Department of Education and Science) called and examined.
Acting Chairman
None of us is perfect.
I am accompanied by Paddy McDonagh and Jack O'Brien, Assistant Secretaries, Seán Harkin, Principal Officer Finance Unit, and Bláithín Dowling, Higher Executive Officer in the Finance Unit.
Acting Chairman
Thank you. I welcome also Mr. Howard from the Department of Finance. I now call the Comptroller and Auditor General to deal with paragraph 25.
Paragraph 25 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:
The Scientific and Technological Education (Investment) Fund Act, 1997, established the Scientific and Technological Education (Investment) Fund for the purpose of developing scientific and technological education at all levels, from primary schools to advanced research in third level institutions. The Fund is administered by the Department of Education and Science, with the sanction of the Department of Finance and is intended to operate in addition to, rather than in replacement of existing investment. The Fund has three major objectives:
· To renew and modernise the infrastructure of third level institutions, particularly in the technological sector
· To develop new areas of activities where emerging skills needs have been identified
· To invest in promoting innovation to maintain and further economic growth.
The Fund came into existence in December 1997 and commenced operation in 1998. The 1997 Act, as amended, provided for the payment of an Oireachtas grant of £130m into the Fund in 1998. Further payments of £150m are due, giving a total of £280m in State support by the end of the year 2000. During 1998, £30.5m was expended on approved projects by the Department of Education and Science, as follows:
££Third Level ProvisionHigher Education Authority Institution 552,596Institutes of Technology 14,993,530Schools IT 2000 Project Capital ProvisionPrimary Schools9,342,941Special Schools 491,520Second Level Schools3,207,860Individual Special Needs Pupils 255,382Education Centres 60,000Support Service by the Inspectorate of the Department of Education and Science 108,496Maynooth College 20,000—13,486,199Second Level Schools Capital ProvisionPost-Leaving Certificate courses 1,475,720—Total30,508,045
The Act envisages contributions to the Fund from both the public and private sectors. The Private Donations Investment Account at the Central Bank was established under the Act to facilitate private contributions into the Fund and this money, together with the income arising from its investment, was to be used to supplement the funding provided by the State. However, by June 1999, no contributions had been received into the Private Donations Investment Account. I was informed that:
· There were no targets set for the private contributions. However, with the introduction of the tax incentive schemes under the 1997 Taxes Consolidation Acts, funds in the order of £50m have been attracted into the third level system either through projects already sanctioned or currently being processed. At present this appears to be the preferred method of channelling funds to the third level projects by donors to the sector. The Department is satisfied that very significant additional private money is being added to the State's investment and that this will significantly increase the core allocation for the institutions.
· It is expected that following the success in attracting the £50m from the private sector further significant funds will follow through the tax incentive route.
· The Private Donations Investment Account continues to offer an investment route to potential donors for whom the tax incentive schemes under the 1997 Taxes Consolidation Acts are not the preferred option.
· The Government is at present considering proposals for extending the concept of Public Private Partnerships and the Department of Education and Science is represented on an inter departmental working group on this matter.
Mr. Purcell
Thank you, Chairman. There is only one paragraph on the group of Education Votes for 1998. It is not a critical paragraph - it is fairly new and is for information purposes more than anything else. In it I outline the origin of the Scientific and Technological Education (Investment) Fund which started operations in 1998. The fund is used as a vehicle for channelling public moneys into scientific and technological learning initiatives and research activities at all levels of the education system.
The fund mechanism was used to avoid a situation where unspent moneys would have to be surrendered at year end. Instead, the unspent moneys can be carried forward for disbursement in the future. A total of £130 million was paid into the fund from the Vote in 1998 and just over £30 million of that was expended on projects; they are set out in the paragraph. A further £75 million was provided in the 1999 Estimates and it is intended to have a total of £280 million in all available for disbursement from the fund by the end of the year 2000. On the basis of cumulative disbursements up to last month, approximately £65 million, it appears that expenditure on the projects is finding it difficult to keep up with the moneys available. This is understandable to an extent because it takes time to get projects off the ground.
The Committee should note that the enabling legislation also facilitates contributions to the fund by the private sector by providing for a private donation investment account to supplement State funding, but to date no money has been received in this particular way. That is not to say that there has not been substantial private sector investment in research projects in the education area. Tax legislation provides for relief for funding approved projects in third level institutions and beneficial capital allowances for buildings used for educational purposes. This is obviously the method of support preferred by donors and my information is that approximately £65 million has been channelled into third level research in this way to date.
Acting Chairman
Before we proceed I am obliged to read the following. Witnesses should be made aware that they do not enjoy absolute privilege and should be appraised as follows. Members/witnesses attention is drawn to the fact that as and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act, 1997, grants certain rights to persons who are identified in the course of the Committee's dealings. These rights include the right to give evidence, the right to produce and send documents to the Committee, the right to appear before the Committee either in person or through a representative, the right to make a written and oral submission, the right to request the Committee to direct the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents, and the right to cross-examine witnesses. For the most part, these rights may only be exercised with the consent of the Committee. Persons being invited before the Committee are made aware of these rights and any person identified in the course of proceedings who are not present may have to be made aware of these rights and provided with a transcript of the relevant part of the Committee's proceedings if the Committee considers it appropriate in the interest of justice.
Notwithstanding this provision in the legislation, I should remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against persons outside the House, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I call Deputy Conor Lenihan.
On the issue of the Scientific and Technological Education (Investment) Fund, I notice no target is set for the Department. Is there any reason for that or is it intended to set a target in the future for the amount of private investment?
No target has been set. If I may I will add some general remarks to what the Comptroller and Auditor General said in relation to the fund and I will then come back to the Deputy's specific question.
Further to the summary given by the Comptroller and Auditor General, the fund is parallel and additional to the normal Estimates process. The fund is what we regard as an innovative measure that maximises efficiency without lessening accountability and appropriate financial controls. The Department of Education and Science prepares an annual report not later than three months after the end of each financial year in respect of the operation of the fund. Copies of that report are laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas and are published. The first allocation under the fund was made during 1998. The first report was prepared at the end of the 1998 financial year and laid before the Houses early in 1999.
At the outset we set out sectoral allocations, reflecting the prevailing priorities for capital investment at the time. For example, we allocated £25 million for the schools IT 2000 programme and £20 million went to vocational education needs in the vocational education sector, mainly PLC courses and apprenticeships. In addition, £20 million was put aside for a sustained programme of investment in the provision of hotel and tourism training facilities in the technological colleges. For infrastructural developments we allocated £80 million for renewal of the technological sector. A total of £30 million was put aside for renewal of equipment in third level institutions, and an additional £60 million was added for skills needs programmes. A total of £45 million was put aside for reinforcing the research and development capacity of third level institutions, including the transfer of technology.
It is worth noting that the fund consists of two accounts - an account for the PMG and an account known as the private donations investment account. As the C&AG has mentioned, the private donations investment account was established to receive gifts and private donations given for the purpose of supporting scientific and technological education. There have been no donations to date nor were any targets set in this regard. That is partly due to the fact that no provision was made initially for tax relief on payments to the private donations investment account of the fund. However, this has since been rectified. As the C&AG has said, in practice what happens is that the majority of donors appear to wish to make the contributions to specific institutions, and they can do this directly and gain tax relief in so doing without going through the mechanism of the fund. Nevertheless, it was considered important when the fund was being established to maintain this facility in order to offer an alternative investment route to a potential donor should a potential donor wish to donate. They would be donating in a general way to third level rather than specifying a particular institution, whereas what appears to be the case is that the vast majority of private donors wish to deal directly with an individual institution. No target was set for that reason.
How many donors have given to third level in general?
There have been quite a lot, for instance, to date £65 million in capital investment to a range of institutions such as TCD, DCU, the National University of Ireland, Galway, the University of Limerick, the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland and so on.
They are made directly to the institute.
Directly to the institute.
How many are made to the generalised fund.
Nobody has made a private donation to the fund. Privation donations are not a precondition of the terms establishing the fund. The fund was included to facilitate people who might wish to make a general donation to third level.
It is costly to maintain this facility?
No, it is not. It does not involve any cost to the State. It involves a maximum of about an hour a year from our——
That is great. It is administered by the Department rather than by a committee of representatives from all the universities?
It is.
Given that the private donors donate directly to the private colleges, is there an argument for establishing a committee to deal with the facility in conjunction with the universities?
We work closely with the universities and the Higher Education Authority on this. A number of private donors wish to remain anonymous, although we in the Department deal with them in the background. We deal with the Higher Education Authority and with institutions on the attraction of this fund for them.
I mentioned the figure of £65 million, which relates to capital projects. Since the fund was established an enormous amount of other money has been attracted. For instance, approximately £95 million was attracted for a research and development project initiated by the Higher Education Authority some months ago. When it was decided to create an additional 6,200 places in the university sector at a cost of £30 million, the institutions managed to raise £30 million and the Department matched that figure. Other money has been donated by private donors to individual institutions, although some of those donors do not want their names or the origin of the donations publicised.
In terms of policy direction, is it the case that policy on attracting private investment in third level education is driven by the colleges rather than the Department, given that the national fund is a non-performing one and there is no money in it?
The facility in terms of a national fund was included. An increasingly important part of the Department's approach to funding capital projects at third level is through meaningful partnership with the enterprise sector. That is an aspect the Department and the Minister have been strongly promoting.
Another skill relevant to the fund is the schools' IT 2000 package, which is partly financed through the fund. That has attracted more than £15 million investment from Telecom, now called Eircom, and major investment from Intel and IBM for two other major projects. Intel and the Department are jointly sponsoring a schools' network, Scoilnet, launched in recent months, which links all primary and post primary schools. Eircom is responsible for installing ISDN lines and a multimedia computer in every school. That is in addition to the moneys we invested in IT 2000 to enable the schools to buy more equipment. There is a constant striving for partnership in terms of public and private funding.
When was the facility for private donations to schools set up by the Minister? Was it set up last year?
Yes, last year.
Those donations are tax deductible.
Yes.
Has Mr. Dennehy a figure on the uptake of that scheme and, if so, can he give a breakdown on funding secured by schools in urban and rural areas or within Dublin city?
We do not have those figures, but many schools are participating in it. From my experience of dealing with schools and individuals in this area, I understand many local companies contribute to schools and also to third level institutions, particularly institutes of technology. In addition to that, major contributions have been made as in the case of the alma maxima arts centre in DCU, bio-engineering equipment for the National University of Ireland, a regional centre for modern languages in Galway and a bio-medical science building in UCD. All these projects attracted substantial funding.
Regarding private sector funding for primary and secondary schools, how is this scheme marketed by the Department or by the schools? I would like a breakdown on that vis-à-vis Dublin schools and schools in rural areas. Are some schools disadvantaged because there is not much industry located near them? Rural schools may be discriminated against because they may not have access to industry locally. A school located near the Sandyford Industrial Estate in which 6,000 people are employed could easily get funding, but schools that are further away from these linkages might not be able to get funding. How does the Department view the scheme in terms of sharing out the benefits of commercial or entrepreneurial sponsorship of schools? Does that operate from the top level under the guidance of the Department or do schools have to go out and hustle for funding in the market?
Those two approaches apply. We do not have collated information on donations attracted by individual schools. Many small schools would get a few hundred pounds from local groups. I do not have specific information on this, but anecdotal evidence from our inspectors and from other sources indicates that in the area of information technology tremendous support is being given by local bodies, local groups, parents' organisations and so on to individual schools. We promote that idea centrally. When we issued grants and documentation to schools on the IT 2000 programme, we sent them information advice on linking in with local business, local industry, local groups and using parents' councils to assist them to build up their base of equipment and materials, but I do not have specific information in that regard on individual schools.
Is it possible to collate information from individual schools? That would be important. I am aware from my constituency that there seems to be a disparity in the professionalism of individual schools, where one versus the other. One school might be proficient at raising funds while another might not be. That has implications for further resource allocations. If some schools are spectacularly successful at raising funds from the private sector, that would have implications for the level of State funding that should be allocated to those schools. Does the Department intend to review how this scheme is operating?
That is an interesting suggestion and it is something we would examine in relation to information technology. That information should be easy enough to get. We could talk to personnel in the national centre for technology in education who would be able to assist us in collating that. We may or may not get all the information on other donations and moneys from the schools, but we would be prepared to consider that suggestion.
The Deputy must conclude.
Is this scheme supervised by the Department or by the Revenue Commissioners? Should I be asking the Revenue Commissioner or the Department of Finance who analyses the flow of funds into the schools?
We analyse the flow of State funds, but traditionally——
Who analyses the flow the private funds?
I was principal of a school in a disadvantaged area for seven years in the 1970s. During that period I managed to attract enormous funding locally in an area beyond Blanchardstown in Dublin. The board of management, its chairman and I were responsible for the accounts, but I did not formally report that funding to the Department. We used it to supplement various grants to assist taking children on school outings and so on. I had specific information on State funding but for private donations, which could range from a computer to £5, we would have to set about dealing with this is a much more structured way.
I am pleased the Department recognised Mr. Dennehy's talent while serving in his west Dublin school. I congratulate him on his promotion from principal to his present position.
On the figure of £491,520 for special schools, does this apply to special primary schools or special schools outside of primary schools?
It applies to special primary and post-primary schools. The schools IT 2000 operates in the context of primary and post-primary schools.
Are there grants for primary schools which hold special classes?
They are included in this. This specific part of the fund deals with information technology. In addition, there is a wide range of grants available for special classes and special schools.
Is it the desire to have more special classes in standard primary schools rather than special schools?
Absolutely, plus the integration of individual pupils with special needs into ordinary classes.
Is the grant structure geared in that direction to encourage special integration?
It is. In addition, it is geared towards specific individual children with learning needs who require particular equipment and software.
The sum of £255,000 applies to this?
Yes.
That is spread over special classes and special schools?
Yes, it is.
The aspirations in regard to the donations investment account drew a blank in June of this year.
It was a safety net.
On the tax incentive scheme, is Mr. Dennehy at liberty to say what tax incentives are available to investors?
Two sections of the Taxes Consolidation Act, 1997 apply to this. Section 485 provides for tax relief, income tax or corporation tax, as appropriate, on gifts made by private individuals or companies to approved third level education institutions for specific projects, mainly for undertaking research, acquiring equipment and providing facilities designed to increase student numbers in skills areas. The relief applies to any personal or corporate donation of £1,000 or more. Section 843 provides for tax based relief for financing packages involving the construction, sale and lease back of capital investments, buildings and equipment, considered to be of particular importance in approved third level institutions where the institution has obtained not less than half of the funding from private sources. The tax relief is given through accelerated capital allowances which will allow the cost of the building to be written off over several years rather than the normal 25 years for an industrial building.
Does this mean a private developer can build a school, or a wing of a school, and lease it back to the school and receive a capital write-off over seven years?
That would be third level institutions. There is a difference in relation to public private partnerships. A number of Government Departments have been asked by Government to conduct a pilot exercise in public private partnership and we are one of those Departments.
Does the provision of accommodation for third level schools qualify for that write-off?
Yes.
Can private developers develop apartments or houses for student accommodation and receive the write-off?
Student accommodation is included. It is a separate scheme.
Must it be rented solely to students?
Yes, during term time.
During non-term time it can be rented commercially?
Yes, that is my understanding. However, I am not a tax expert.
This appears to be a very attractive scheme.
Public private partnership for first and second level is also interesting and something we are pursuing. The Comptroller and Auditor General mentioned this in his report.
If a private investor carries out such a scheme, particularly the accommodation scheme, does that property remain in the ownership of the private investor?
It reverts to the college after a period. I am not sure if this follows a period of seven years.
I think the period is longer.
I will check on that and let the Deputy know.
I wish to ask the Secretary General about the whole area of disadvantage and drop-out in this Celtic tiger economy. What new steps are being taken in education to deal with this problem?
A range of steps have been taken in recent years.
I am anxious to know what is being done about school attendance? This has gone on for years and there is still very little action being taken to deal with school attendance which is the beginning of the problem of drop-outs and students leaving school when they finish primary school. What is being done to help children who are not performing in school because of problems in the home?
The School Attendance Bill has been drafted and is going through Second Stage at the moment. Unfortunately, this seems to be going on for a long time. It is hoped to complete Second Stage next week, then it will move to Committee Stage. There is a huge emphasis in the Bill on a welfare service for schools to try to prevent children from dropping out and ensure that a number of mechanisms are put in place so that children will not have a major school attendance problem. As the Deputy rightly says, this is a major problem in disadvantaged areas. In addition, the Bill will enable home-school liaison to be linked very closely to the whole strategy. This year, advances were made to the extent that every school in a disadvantaged area will now have access to a home-school liaison officer. This is now a reality and should help greatly. In addition, the support teacher project involving teacher counsellors was put in place in selected schools, particularly in the north inner city of Dublin, Tallaght, Clondalkin and other areas where there are particular problems. The Breaking-the-Cycle evaluation is now nearing completion and we are looking at the spin-offs from that. There is a committee working within the Department to put together a package which the Minister will announce within a fortnight. This will be a new approach to try to tackle disadvantage in the coming years. This is not yet finalised but the Minister will make an announcement in the next couple of weeks. We regard this as a very innovative package. This will not merely look at schools which are disadvantaged, but looking at groups of children and at individual families and children within a school and trying to put in place resources and back up teaching supports to help these children. It is multifaceted and it requires a fairly broad approach from the remedial teacher to additional resources to enabling the schools to take children on trips and to assisting them with school books, reading and so on. We are trying to put together a very comprehensive package.
I have been told about the school attendance Bill for ten years but in my constituency there are areas where there has not been a school inspector for years——
Absolutely.
——and there is a chronic problem of mitching or absence from school. Are there statistics available which are broken down in terms of school attendance levels?
There are, although I agree with the Deputy when he says it has taken far too long to produce adequate school attendance legislation. In addition, one of our problems has been that while we have very accurate information in relation to post-primary schools, one thing that is seriously lacking in the Department is a school tracking system for primary pupils. We are investing very heavily at the moment in manpower and financial support to put together a primary pupil database which, in the context of something I mentioned earlier, the schools' IT 2000 programme which will provide computers in all schools, we will be able to keep a very up to date tracking system on individual pupils. It will give us far more information than we have at the moment because there has been an information deficit in this area. It is possible to get the kind of information the Deputy is looking for in relation to school attendance areas.
Does the Department not have that information?
I do not have it with me at the moment, Deputy.
But there are statistics?
Yes.
The Conference of Religious in Ireland, the St. Vincent de Paul Society, the Congress of Trade Unions and other groups claim the fruits of the Celtic tiger are not being shared.
Yes.
In the context of where disadvantage begins at primary school, where children drop out or do not attend school, there is absolute inaction. A school attendance Bill is trundling through the House after ten years of promises, but we do not know when that will be implemented. It could be another ten years——
No.
——before it is implemented and becomes effective.
We have an implementation plan ready on the assumption that the Bill will become an Act. We have an implementation group working on this and we are setting aside money in the Estimates for the coming year. We have set aside money for an immediate implementation phase. We are setting up a welfare authority, a school welfare board, and we will move ahead very fast as soon as the Bill is enacted.
What will happen if children are continually absent? What sanctions will be available? What help will be given and what sanctions will be taken against parents and children if the help is not taken ?
We are looking more at help than sanctions although, as the Deputy said, there will have to be sanctions at the end of the day. In relation to help, one of the areas where the problem often begins now is before children formally start primary school. With that in mind, we are completing a White Paper on early childhood education where we will have a huge emphasis on dealing with early education initiatives within particularly disadvantaged areas but right across the country.
We hope the White Paper will be published within two or three weeks and we have set aside some funding in the Estimates for next year to begin a process of ensuring that children, particularly in disadvantaged areas, have adequate pre-schooling facilities. The problem often begins there and we are hoping to put in place a range of initiatives along the lines of the breaking the cycle programme to keep those children in school. A tremendous advantage of the breaking the cycle initiative, particularly in schools in Dublin's inner city and parts of Cork and Limerick, has been the attractiveness of the package and the programme, the resources made available and so on. Non-attendance in schools has dropped very considerably. It is one of the major spin offs. At a recent meeting in the Department, I spoke to the principals of all the schools in the breaking the cycle scheme. They were unanimous in their view that it has made an enormous difference in keeping children in schools.
Mitching or absence has dropped dramatically?
Very dramatically.
Are there any statistics or comparative figures?
I can send figures on schools in the breaking the cycle programme to the committee.
Regarding help in the home, the majority of children who manifest problems in school have problems at home.
Yes.
It may be a lack of confidence on the part of the parents or parent. This area needs to be addressed if the problems of slow learning or children not living up to their abilities in school are to be addressed. What new thinking has emerged regarding helping mothers, in particular, in the home?
The most important measure is the home-school-liaison programme which is not totally new in so far as it has existed for a number years but it has proved to be one of the most successful initiatives. We have increased substantially the number of home-school-liaison teachers so that every school in a disadvantaged area has access to a home-school-liaison teacher. In addition, through appointing some additional people at co-ordination level, we are looking at how best these people can assist parents in the home, particularly mothers, in relation to homework and so on.
We are also in discussion - this will probably have some important spin offs - with our colleagues in the Departments of Health and Children and Social, Community and Family Affairs on other ways of helping parents in relation to parenting. Under the home-school-liaison scheme, in some areas they are running cookery classes in schools for parents who wish to attend. There are also a number of courses in relation to the children's curriculum.
The Deputy may be aware that we recently launched the new primary school curriculum. A massive in-service training programme has begun not only for teachers, but also for parents. We have liaised closely with the National Parents Council and the management bodies. The National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, in conjunction with the Department, is producing a series of booklets for parents on assisting them with their children. We have also become active in the idea of homework clubs in areas of particular disadvantage.
My observation is that many mothers underestimate their own abilities and lack confidence.
Yes.
Personal development courses are of enormous benefit. Parents underestimate themselves but when they get confidence, it can be the solution to the child's problem.
Absolutely.
Regarding third level and the labour shortages that currently exist, I met the National Association for the Mentally Handicapped recently and it told me that it cannot get occupational therapists, physiotherapists and speech therapists. It claims this is a feature of restricted numbers in third level. Is the problem of creating extra places at third level in areas where there are shortages being addressed? What happened to the proposal that 60 of the 70 acres at Grangegorman would become a campus for the Dublin Institute of Technology?
Regarding the 60 acres, we have a proposition with the Department of Finance at present. It is definitely active.
It is another slow burner.
In relation to skills shortages, we increased the number at third level to 112,000 or 113,000 this year.
In third level?
Yes. There has been a massive increase over the past three or four years. In addition, in the computer science and IT skills areas, we hope to provide an additional 6,000 places in the coming year. There are an additional 650 places in software engineering, 500 places in technician programmes, 675 places in engineering technician programmes and up to a further 1,000 software graduate places. There is a huge drive to increase the numbers at third level.
What is happening in the medical field in terms of nurses and paramedics? We also have problems getting accountants and auditors in the public service. Are we addressing these issues because, if not, they will quickly stop our economic growth?
These issues are being addressed. I agree with the Deputy that the key determinant of our sustained economic progress is that we have an adequate number of people graduating in these areas from our third level institutions. We are conscious of these issues and we are in constant discussions with the Higher Education Authority and the partners on them.
It is ludicrous that some national schools are classified as disadvantaged while other schools, sometimes in the same parish, are not. It seems to be impossible to get these schools, some of which are small two teacher schools, classified as disadvantaged. What is the position on that?
The position is as the Deputy described it. I agree there is an anomaly between what one school gets and what is given to another school a few hundred yards away. The advice we were given approximately three years ago by the Education Research Centre and the Combat Poverty Agency was that we should not continue to expand the disadvantaged area scheme in the way we were doing. Breaking the Cycle was then set up as a pilot project. Based on the information we have gathered from that project and other initiatives, we have decided to introduce a totally new package to respond to the needs of disadvantaged schools, but with great emphasis on disadvantaged children. We hope to announce that package in the next couple of weeks, but it will probably be after the budget. The Minister is working with us and we have had numerous meetings with him. A small group of people at senior level in the Department are dedicated to this task of trying to get rid of the type of anomalies the Deputy described.
Will the disadvantaged status be available to all children who are eligible without having to apply for it?
We will work closely with the school authorities to identify the needs not only of the school but also of individual children who may need special help and support, such as finance, remedial teaching or home school liaison support. There have been a huge range of initiatives in relation to disadvantage and we are trying to pull the best of those together in a package. I presume it will not be a panacea, but we hope it will improve the situation dramatically. We will assess and evaluate it as we move along next year and in subsequent years with a view to improving it again. This is also closely linked to the outcome of the national development plan which will be announced in the next week or so. Disadvantage and social inclusion are major items in the national development plan.
As regards special needs children being integrated into national schools in their own areas rather than being sent to special schools, will the measures Mr. Dennehy outlined also apply to them?
They will. We are making enormous strides since the circular was issued last year in giving automatic support to all special needs children in our ordinary schools. To date, we have appointed 745 full-time special needs assistants who will help children with particular difficulties in the classroom and 129 part-time assistants in the smaller schools. In addition, we have sanctioned 220 resource teachers and 1,718 part-time resource teachers for children with specific needs who might require assistance from a special teacher for one, two, three or fours hours a day. The needs of a child are assessed in consultation with the psychologist, the local school inspector, the school and the parents of the child.
As regards the fund, the Comptroller and Auditor General states that by June 1999 no contribution has been received into the private donations investment account. Perhaps Mr. Dennehy could give us more information on that. He also indicates the various alternatives etc. and Mr. Dennehy referred to those earlier. How can that be addressed?
In talking to my colleagues about this in recent days, including the manager of our third level building unit, I came to the conclusion that perhaps we should publicise it a little more. This fund was launched in a great blaze of publicity. We are convinced that while it did not attract private donors to the fund, it caused private donors to think in terms of contributing to individual institutions. This section was put into the Act to enable us to avail of any private donations in a general way, particularly for third level capital projects. However, our experience has been that the donors prefer to deal directly with an institution.
As opposed to going to the Department.
They deal with us as well but they want to name a specific institution rather than giving money in a general way to the fund.
If they go through the Department, do they not have the option of naming a specific institution?
They have that option.
Is there any difference between the tax concessions available to them?
My understanding is there is not. The same tax concessions are available regardless of which way they go. The two sections of the taxes Act I mentioned apply to both.
It is unusual there are no donations coming through that route.
It is. There are substantial donations by direct donation to the individual institutions.
Perhaps it might be no harm to look at that again and to come back to the Committee with some information.
We can send the Committee a note on that.
I presume the concept of this fund is to allow someone at a strategic level, such as the Minister or the Taoiseach, to get a donor who wants to give money but who may not know the details of how it operates.
That is right. It could also apply to a foreign investor who has no tax base here but who wants to do it in that way. We were advised this could be a possibility. There were some queries and it was decided to include this section.
It would be helpful if we could get information on the level of tracking taking place of private sector donations to individual schools. It is important in terms of monitoring the performance of schools that we know the level of resourcing not only from the State but from private sources. You talked about disadvantaged status. If one is not monitoring the level of private donations to a school and if a school with disadvantaged status is getting several hundred thousand pounds in private support - although it might be outlandish to suggest such a thing - it is important to know what other resources are being flushed through the school, so to speak, to judge how well taxpayers' money is being spent.
Certainly, we will look at what we can do by way of sampling. I would have to be careful that we would not appear to be penalising schools which happen to be particularly good at fundraising——
——regardless of whether they are disadvantaged. In addition, schools sometimes may not want to tell us about particular donations.
Presumably, since this money is being accessed under a tax relief provided by the Exchequer, there is an obligation to report on its performance.
The Revenue Commissioners would have information on where tax relief is obtained.
Can you obtain figures about the scheme and the uptake from the Revenue Commissioners? That would be sensible from your point of view.
We certainly have information immediately to hand on the third level. My view is that many of the smaller donations given to first and second level, particularly to smaller schools and primary schools, would not be ones for which people would be claiming tax relief.
I am interested in the tax relief, not the mother or father of four who is giving £100 or £200. I am talking about people who claim tax relief with regard to the school and what schools countrywide are benefiting.
I will ask Mr. Harkin to talk with Revenue about that. We will refer back to the Deputy with whatever information is available.
Acting Chairman
Can I take it that we note the Vote?
Have we run out of time?
Acting Chairman
We are going on to the accounts.
Can I return to the issue of disadvantage?
Acting Chairman
Yes.
I understand that the review to be announced will track the people rather than the areas which are allegedly disadvantaged.
The disadvantaged package to be announced is a wide ranging one. Obviously, I am not able to give information on the detail of the package. However, as part of the Education (Welfare) Bill, we are putting in place a tracking system for pupils. At present, we have accurate information on early school leavers at second level because there is a pupil tracking system at that level. We do not have such a system at primary level. We did not have IT facilities in many primary schools until recently. However, with the introduction of IT to that level - all schools have IT and are on the Internet - our IT people are devising a package or tracking system which will enable us to track individual pupils who either drop out of the system or who are not attending school.
You are aware of the anomaly in urban areas. In a disadvantaged area, for example, large numbers of parents are moving their children into schools which are perceived to be better or are in more advantaged areas. That happens in my constituency. Somebody could move their child from a school in west Tallaght to a school in central Tallaght while parents in central Tallaght might perceive that schools in Greenhills or Templeogue are better. Down the line there is a domino effect in the flight of children from disadvantaged areas to areas which are perceived to be advantaged. The schools in the advantaged areas, therefore, could be dealing with disadvantaged pupils. Will the review will change the method of allocation? You are not expanding the concept of a disadvantaged school. Will you eliminate the disadvantaged status for schools or how will it be handled?
No, we do not intend to do that but we intend to examine the phenomenon you describe. In fact, we are examining it. Very disadvantaged children might be moved to a school which is considered to be better and might be outside the child's area. The opposite also happens in rural areas where people move their children from the town schools into country schools which they might perceive to be better. Much depends on the teachers in the schools and the circumstances. Often there are swings and roundabouts and the situation changes again some years later. We are conscious about having no supports for children who might be equally disadvantaged in schools other than disadvantaged schools. We need to address that. That is the reason the Minister asked us to carry out considerable research into this area, which we have done, and to move it forward. He intends to announce this over the next few weeks.
Is it intended to look at the issue of retaining talented teachers in disadvantaged areas? This is another problem. Talented teachers tend to get tired of dealing with disadvantage and confronting the problems——
I do not know if there is evidence of that.
In conversations with teachers in my constituency, they gave the impression that over a period of years there is a burn out factor for talented teachers who come up against the social problems that exist in disadvantaged schools. You have no evidence of that?
We have not.
There is no way of measuring it, of course.
During my years as a teacher I worked in a number of areas that would have been regarded as disadvantaged and I was lucky to have some excellent teachers working with me. They stayed on in the schools long after I left.
My last question is on the vexed issue of school caretakers and secretaries, which has been long fingered to an extent. School secretaries and caretakers are on low wages and, in some cases, FÁS employees working on schemes in the schools are being paid more. Is there any intention to address this? They do important administrative work.
One of the things we have done in this area is the reduction in eligibility - in relation to caretakers and secretaries in primary schools, the number is down to 195. From 1 January next, all schools with 100 pupils or more will be entitled to grant aid towards the employment of caretakers and secretaries. We are also looking at the remuneration of these people. No final decision has been taken on it. The issue of caretakers and secretaries in schools arose from the original partnership agreement, the PCW. It will probably feature in the next partnership agreement as well.
You accept that it is not a satisfactory situation?
No, indeed. We are reducing the eligibility threshold from 195 to 100 and, indeed, in a way taking the unusual step of commencing this from 1 January next rather than from the beginning of the school year, which would be September next.
What is the Department's intention on the remuneration issue? Obviously I do not want to prejudice any discussions in this regard in which the Department is engaged.
It is a policy issue on which the Department has been in discussions with the partners and, indeed, with our colleagues in the Department of Finance, and we will continue to discuss this issue with them.
Can you assure school secretaries, at least, and caretakers that their positions will be upgraded?
I cannot assure them at this stage because obviously this is reliant on further discussion with the Department of Finance and, indeed, a policy decision by the Minister on the level of remuneration, but the Department and the Minister are very aware of the issues and we are addressing them.
I visit schools in my constituency and they tell me they have the technology for computer studies but they have not been given the training. Perhaps the Department is deploying a vast amount of technological resources at schools but we are not getting value for money because these resources are not being used. We will all be aware from our own experience, the children know more about the computers than the teachers or the parents. What is the Department's view on the development of computer skills among the teaching profession?
The Department has made enormous strides on this over the past year or so. When IT 2000 was announced initially, the aim was that during a three year period the Department would providing in-service training for 20,000 teachers under the teachers' skills initiative dimension. The extremely good news is that to date - we are only a year and a half or so into the project - 40,000 teachers have attended courses. That does not mean that 40,000 different teachers have been involved. In other words, some of the teachers to which I refer may have attended more than one course, but the number of teachers who have attended in the first year alone——
Is double——
——is double that which we had anticipated.
Over three years.
The Department hopes that a further 25,000 in-service training days will be made available for teachers between now and the end of the coming school year. The provision of in-service training is something in which the National Centre for Technology and Education is making enormous strides. I agree totally with the Deputy, that there is no point in providing the equipment and not having the teachers capable of handling it and feeling confident in handling it. If a school or group of schools applies, the Department is willing to either allow them be trained centrally or, indeed, to assist them on site. We have a number of ICT trainers who travel around the country and call into individual schools.
There is another issue at local level which has always worried me. What level of encouragement is the Department giving towards the sharing of sports halls with the community? One may find a GAA club, a local community centre and a school looking for funding from the State to build what could be one piece of shared infrastructure, yet they are all applying separately for three different projects. There seems to be an overlap. Given that the Department has a leading role because sport is becoming part of the curriculum, does the Department intend assessing the sports infrastructure which exists in the community already which could be integrated or shared with local schools? I come across this frequently. For instance, a head teacher may have a wonderful vision for his school of building a PE hall and a local GAA club may also have plans to build a hall. They both seek State moneys, independently of each other and, probably, they will both get their halls but it is likely that they will be two small halls rather than a larger facility which could be used by the club, the school and the wider community. What lead is the Department taking to ensure there is an integrated approach to the provision of sports halls?
The first thing I would say is that the Department would always encourage schools to make their facilities available, provided of course it is outside school time and it does not interfere with the running of the school. With sports and other facilities within schools, the school must be particularly careful that they are ready, clean and prepared for the students the following morning. Most of these institutions or schools would be privately owned and the best we can do is encourage them to make their facilities available. When a school is being built and facilities of the kind the Deputy describes are being provided, naturally the Department would be looking at all of the existing facilities in surrounding areas and then finally decisions would be made. The Department's main purpose and aim would be to provide for the school community, the students or children within the school, to try to ensure that they get maximum benefit. I notice, on an anecdotal note, that the sports facilities of a community school which is relatively near where I live is in constant use at night by the school itself. Even though there may be two facilities nearby, often they are both quite well used. It is an area at which the Department looks regularly. We try to encourage schools not to simply turn the key in the door at 4 p.m. or whatever time but to try to get maximum use from their facility.
On Vote 26, may I have a breakdown of subhead A4, postal and telecommunication services, £1.4 million? Where does that arise? That is the estimate. The outturn is £1.6 million.
The purpose of this particular provision, that is the £1.4 million, is to meet the costs associated with the postal and telecommunication requirements of the Department itself.
Is it not just that of the schools?
No, it is not. The Department would pay a capitation grant to the schools, who then would be responsible for their own telephone or postal bills from the moneys they would get from the State generally.
Thank you. Does that apply similarly to office premises expenses at £1 million?
Yes. Subheads A1 to A7 relate to the Department.
Are the buildings, to which those office expenses refer, leased to the Department? Is that what that figure covers?
It would be computers, furniture, equipment and such issues.
Thank you. On Vote 26, there is a note on page 169 about a review of school transport. The year of appointment was 1996 and the expenditure to 31 December is £16,674. Why has it taken so long for the review of school transport to come to a conclusion?
The report is concluded and has been submitted to the Minister at this stage. The review was launched in January 1996 and the report was presented to the Minister in December 1998.
Why has it taken so long for a review, which was set up in January 1996, to be implemented? What is the next step in that review?
The next step is that the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science, Deputy O'Dea, and his officials are looking at the school transport report at present. The recommendation which came from the review group was that the report should not be implemented piecemeal, that it should be looked at as a single item or report and that all of the recommendations were dependent on each other. It does require a lot of research and work within the Department before the report could be implemented. Some parts of it have been put in place. For example, we made huge strides in relation to escorts on buses which was considered to be one of the more important recommendations in the report. I refer here to transport arrangements for pupils with special needs.
I propose that we send a message to the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science, Deputy O'Dea, that this matter should be finalised or that his views on it should be made known as soon as possible so that the report, whether piecemeal or as a whole, can be implemented quickly. As everyone knows, the school transport system is in a state of absolute chaos. At present, there are three pupils for every two seats which means that on a 54 seater bus there could be 80 students with bags and sports equipment. These vehicles have no seatbelts or guide rails. This is an extremely difficult situation.
Acting Chairman
That is a policy matter and Standing Orders indicate that the Committee shall refrain from inquiring into matters of policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policies.
The Acting Chairman is almost as good at his job as the Chairman. We are discussing under Vote 26 the review of the school transport system and I want to know on what the money is being spent if such a review of that system and the difficulties attaching to it are not being addressed. It would not be acceptable to have a claim made against the Department in the future because the Committee of Public Accounts did not do its job in terms of ensuring that the review of the school transport system was adopted. I am anxious to see that the report is adopted in order to save the State several millions of pounds.
It is ridiculous that there are three children for every two seats on school buses. However, that is the reality in rural areas where it is legal to have 80 students travel on a 54 seater buses. I am anxious that the Committee should send a message to the Minister of State to encourage him to expedite his examination of the school transport review in order that it can be adopted.
Acting Chairman
That point refers to value for money and return on investment.
Absolutely.
I am glad the Acting Chairman accepts my point.
I can respond on one point - the issues of three students per two seats and seatbelts were not addressed directly by the transport committee because——
That is a pity.
——they noted that they were relevant to the Department of the Environment and Local Government.
How can the problem be resolved?
I will take note of the Deputy's observations and——
I also have a number of observations on the fleet of old, derelict buses on our roads. Some school buses are in a scandalous condition and a number of them have been in use since the scheme was introduced. The sooner we come to a conclusion of the review of the school transport system the better it will be for everybody concerned.
Thanks, Deputy, I will convey your remarks.
To return the question of shared sports facilities between schools and communities, what is the position regarding insurance cover? Does the Department's insurance cover of such facilities - gymnasiums or sports fields - extend to their use by community groups?
No. Any group that would be using a facility outside school hours or that would not be associated with the normal schooling activities would have to provide evidence of its own insurance to the school authorities.
I do not wish to stray into a controversial area but I wish to discuss the question of league tables of examination results. I am aware that the Minister has initiated legal proceedings to prevent publication of such tables. What are the Department's misgivings in respect of this area? I previously worked for the Inner London Education Authority, a left-wing controlled body which published league tables of examination results but with social weighting built in to avoid discrimination towards severely disadvantaged schools.
If league tables are not introduced, does the Department intend to develop a performance indicator to help parents compare the teaching standards and achieved results of particular schools? Is an alternative to such tables being considered?
The background to this is obviously a serious of applications from newspapers - Deputies will know that themselves - which were refused etc. and subsequently appealed to the Information Commissioner. The commissioner found in favour of the release of the information sought with the exception of results pertaining to small class groups of ten pupils or less. The Minister has appealed the decision of the commissioner to the High Court and has also sought a declaration from the court in relation to the applicability of section 53 of the Education Act. Essentially, the legal issues will be dealt with by the court.
With regard to the policy issues, the view of the Minister and the Department is that crude league tables treat all schools and pupils as being the same. They do not distinguish between the vastly differing capacities and aptitudes of individual students or the different enrolments of the schools. The focus is on one yardstick only, namely, examination results and there is a failure to have regard to the wide success of a school in sporting, cultural or pastoral areas. Also, they are likely to further increase the already excessive pressure on students and push second level schools to cherry-pick on the enrolment front to the likely detriment of special needs or disadvantaged pupils.
In relation to the second part of the Deputy's question on the accountability issues, the Minister's position on league tables should in no way be interpreted as implying that there is no requirement for accountability in our schools. On the contrary, we want real not superficial accountabililty. Whole school evaluation and school development planning are aiming to do this. These are two collaborative models that are being put in place with the agreement and consensus of the partners in education. We are all looking at how we can ensure accountability in our schools. Over time, I think they will underpin real accountability where a school's worth is based on the totality of its endeavours rather than just on examination results.
Does Mr. Dennehy believe it would be wrong to provide parents with an assessment of how a school is doing relative to the national average, without resorting to listing detailed results?
No, and that we can do in the context of whole school evaluation.
Are parents in a position to obtain such information at present?
We can provide information to individual parents on their own children and that would be one of the important sections of the Education Act. Parents are totally and perfectly entitled information on their own children.
Can a parent access information on the performance of a school, relative to other schools in an area?
They do that in all sorts of ways at present. Anecdotally the Deputy would know——
Is there any performance indicator that does not focus purely on examination results?
The report on the whole school evaluation is one way in which they will be able to do that. That has been at a pilot stage for a number of years but it is now being expanded and broadened.
When will it come into operation?
The WSE is in operation now and we are in consultation with the partners with a view to expanding it further.
What format does the evaluation take? If I was a parent with a choice of schools for my child, what would I get from the school in this regard?
The best person to talk to in the first instance is the principal of the school - talk to him about the school, its quality, whether or not an evaluation has been conducted on the school, what is in that and so on.
That is what I am asking.
A number of inspectors——
Would I get a piece of paper?
I do not think that you do at the moment.
But a number of inspectors would visit the school over a period of time and conduct an evaluation of the work of the school and they would write a report based on that.
Is that available to parents?
They are not published at the moment
But they will be presumably in the future.
We are discussing with the partners now where we will move with this particular item now at this stage.
Will there be a report for parents on how the school is performing as opposed to the child?
Yes. That is important
Acting Chairman
Vote 26, subhead B.8 on page 162, Grant-in-Aid Fund for General Expenses of Youth and Sports Organisations and other Expenditure in relation to Youth and Sports Activities, is £7.5 million with an outturn of £143,000. Is that correct?
That is right.
Acting Chairman
What is the reason for the failure to spend the money allocated under that heading?
We will go through that. I suppose there were two reasons really for the savings in this particular one. Development groups were set up in each of the 13 local drugs task force areas to develop locally integrated facility and service plans according to detailed guidelines prepared by an assessment committee chaired by the Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation and agreed by the Cabinet sub-committee on social inclusion. The guidelines gave a deadline originally of 30 September 1998 for the submission of plans. However, only one plan was submitted. These plans required a huge amount of detailed work and only one plan was submitted by the deadline. All plans were submitted by November 1998. Further clarification of the plans was sought because this was required I understand by the assessment committee and, unfortunately, it was last spring 1999 before it was in a position to present its recommendations to the Cabinet sub-committee. Therefore, the anticipated expenditure did not take place in 1998 because the various plans and projects could not have been and were not approved until 1999.
Acting Chairman
What was the major contributory factor in the delay?
This was a new area for them. It required a lot of planning. They thought originally that they would be able to put a very detailed plan together quickly. They realised when they consulted locally with local groups, the Garda and various people that it was a much more detailed, extensive and elaborate operation than they had originally anticipated and even when their plans came in the assessment committee felt that they needed to do some further work. There was toing and froing almost until spring 1999 before the plans could be finally approved by the Cabinet sub-committee. It is a case, I suppose, of trying to ensure that money was not simply "thrown out" on the basis of plans that had not been carefully thought through. It was an accountability issue really from the point of view of disbursing the money.
Acting Chairman
How effectively and efficiently are those groups working?
Extremely well is my understanding.
Acting Chairman
What is their impact in terms of dealing with the drugs problem?
The impact is very substantial.
Acting Chairman
Have you methodologies in place for measuring the effectiveness of the groups?
We have. There is a major evaluation taking place at the moment of all of the plans and their effectiveness in the areas, but certainly the evidence we have to date is that they are quite successful.
Acting Chairman
Is it possible to obtain documentary information?
As soon as that evaluation is complete we will certainly make it available to you.
Acting Chairman
I refer to Vote 27 on page 182 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report in which there is a number of references to assaults on staff. Some refer to staff in special schools and that is understandable. What is the position generally? Are any other schools involved?
Certainly our own young offenders institutions would be presumably the main ones in fact, if not all of them. All the others were accidents. My understanding is that any of the assaults in question here were assaults on teachers and staff in the young offenders institutions and anything else was an accident rather than an assault.
Acting Chairman
How many took place? Is there a monitoring system to keep up to date on the issue? Is the number increasing or decreasing? What methodology have you for dealing with the problem?
We have a number of assistant principal officers in our special education section who would deal on a daily basis with these institutions and we would have very accurate information. As soon as an incident or assault takes place in any of those institutions it is reported to us immediately and we would also have a member of our staff on the boards of all of these institutions so we would be aware of all the issues. My information is that it is on the decrease rather than the increase. There was an extensive number of assaults in the mid-1990s and my understanding is that it has decreased very substantially.
Acting Chairman
You keep an eye on it anyway.
A very close eye, yes.
Acting Chairman
If there are shifts in the number of incidents have you a method for alerting people and dealing with it?
Yes, absolutely.
Acting Chairman
I wish to raise two points on school accommodation. Do you have any difficulty meeting your commitments under the schools building programme in terms of availability of builders, etc.?
Not at the moment. Certainly that has not become noticeable even though we have a very increased school building programme at all levels but certainly there is at the moment no obvious sign of any difficulty.
Acting Chairman
Has any project has been held up due to lack of builders?
No, not that I am aware of.
Acting Chairman
The population curve in cities primarily has led to vacant classrooms etc.. To what extent are they utilised?
It depends so much on the individual school. Some of the schools make great use of them from the point of view of maybe additional rooms such as music rooms or whatever for the children in the school or they would make them available to the local community for various activities. It very much depends on the individual school but we would strongly encourage the schools if they have vacant or surplus accommodation not to allow them to go into disuse and disrepair. It is much better to have it used by the local community and by local groups.
Acting Chairman
Do you keep in regular contact with them in order to monitor the number of vacant classrooms?
We would be aware, maybe not in every school, through the reports from our inspectors, surveys that we do when a new school is built in an area or whatever.
Acting Chairman
How many classrooms are vacant currently?
We would have no specific records, I understand from Mr. O'Brien who looks after that area, in relation to surplus accommodation in schools nationally.
Acting Chairman
Is it possible to get that information for the Committee?
It would. We would have to survey the schools. I think the only way we could do it probably is to contact the schools individually.
Acting Chairman
I was of the impression that you had an ongoing method for ensuring that you were up to speed on available surplus accommodation.
I reckon we would be able to get accurate information very quickly but we would not know nationally right across the country in every school.
Acting Chairman
But could you find it?
We could.
Acting Chairman
The Committee should have that information as soon as possible.
Sure. We will do what we can.
Acting Chairman
The Vote is noted. Thank you very much.
Thank you.
The witnesses withdrew.