COMMITTEE of PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 2 Mar 2000

Vol. 2 No. 8

Annual Financial Statements 1997, 1998.

Mr. P. Furlong (Secretary General, Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands), Ms P. Quinn (Director, An Comhairle Ealaíon) and Mr. D. McConnell (Head of Finance, An Comhairle Ealaíon) called and examined.

Acting Chairman (Mr. McCormack)

We are discussing the Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Appropriation Accounts, Vote 41 - An Chomhairle Ealaíon. Witnesses should be aware that they do not enjoy absolute privilege. Persons being invited before the committee are made aware of those rights and any persons identified in the course of proceedings, who are not present, may have to be made aware of those rights and provided with a transcript of the relevant part of the committee's proceedings if the committee considers it appropriate in the interests of justice. Notwithstanding this provision in the legislation, I remind Members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that Members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I ask Mr. Philip Furlong, Secretary General of the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands, to introduce his officials.

Mr. Furlong

I am accompanied by Mr. Sean Ó Cofaigh, Assistant Secretary in the Department, Mr. Chris Flynn from the cultural division of the Department, Mr. Liam O'Connell our accountant, Dr. Alan Craig from the forest and wildlife division and Mr. Dave Fadden from the national monuments division.

Acting Chairman

As regards the annual financial statements, Ms Patricia Quinn, director of An Chomhairle Ealaíon, is the accounting officer. Officials from the Department of Finance are also present.

There are no paragraphs for examination. I ask Mr. Purcell to introduce the accounts and financial statements.

Mr. Purcell

There are two distinct accounts - the Vote account, which channels the voted moneys to the Arts Council because it is autonomous in the way it discharges its disbursements, and the accounts of the Arts Council, which are contained in the informative 1998 annual report. There is nothing arising on the accounts in that I have given a clear certificate on both the Vote and the financial statements of the Arts Council.

I have an extra duty since 1998 regarding compliance with the Prompt Payment of Accounts Act, 1997. On the basis of my examination of the Arts Council's accounts, the Arts Council did not have a system in place during 1998 which would ensure compliance with the Act. I refer to that on page 8 of the annual report of the Arts Council. The Arts Council is not unique in this regard. I am preparing a general report for the Dáil on compliance with the Prompt Payment of Accounts Act, 1997.

Deputy Ardagh

The topical issue at present is the haemorrhage of members from the Arts Council. Perhaps Ms Quinn could tell us about the workload of members and the amount of time and effort demanded of them so the council can do its work properly.

Ms Quinn

Like many State bodies, the Arts Council meets in plenary session approximately ten times a year. That has been the practice for many years. As regards the appointment of the current Arts Council in mid-1998, there was an exceptional number of meetings. The total number of plenary meetings that year was 15 rather than the usual ten. Last year there was also an exceptional number of meetings of the plenary council, 15 in total, because of the work involved in preparing the arts plan.

In addition to plenary meetings, the Arts Council holds meetings of various sub-groups. These include standing committees of which there are three, with a fourth committee made up of the chairpersons of sub-committees. Other meetings involving members of the Council also include panels, which are expert groups, comprising a council member and experts from the world of the arts, put together to assess awards to individual artists. The council occasionally creates working groups to look at individual topics of interest to the council.

Council members occasionally attend meetings with organisations funded by the Arts Council at the request of those organisations. That is aside from the work of attending functions and speaking at events. There could be more than 70 or 80 different types of meetings during a year and some members may wish to participate in some or all of them. The most plenary meetings the council has held in the past couple of years is 15.

Deputy Ardagh

A huge amount of time and effort is required on a voluntary basis. I know the amount of time we spend on a paid basis preparing for and attending committee meetings. The council members give a great service and they should be thanked for their time and effort.

As regards events conducted in co-operation with Údarás na Gaeltachta, perhaps Ms Quinn could tell us if they help to ensure that the Irish language is more widely used and to improve the quality of life in the Gaeltacht areas.

Ms Quinn

I am glad to have the opportunity to speak to the committee about this issue. We have two programmes with Údarás na Gaeltachta. One is Splanc, which is a scheme to assist documentary film-making in Irish. It was launched a couple of years ago and has been working successfully with many young film makers coming forward for awards. A couple of years ago we created with Údarás na Gaeltachta a scheme modelled on the local authority arts officer programme. We jointly fund with Údarás na Gaeltachta the posts of áisitheoirí, or arts facilitators, in local communities. There are three áisitheoirí in the different Gaeltacht areas and a fourth individual was recently promoted to run the áisitheoirí programme. Their work is to act as facilitators and promoters of the arts in the Gaeltacht areas. A lot of good work has flowed from their input. However, that is not to say the county arts officers do not have programmes for the arts in Irish in different counties.

Deputy Durkan

With regard to the promotion of film, the 1998 annual report shows a total of £975,000, an increase of 22% on the 1997 allocation. The report goes on to state that there is an important number of film resource organisations. Could Ms Quinn give us some information about that?

Ms Quinn

The largest single film resource organisation supported by the Arts Council is the Film Institute of Ireland, which is based in the Film Centre in Temple Bar. It acts as a centre for film culture, housing a number of important film organisations, but also doing a lot of important education work. It has a transition year programme which has been very well taken up in recent years.

There is a number of other film resource organisations, such as Filmbase, which was created about ten years ago to provide training materials and training opportunities for young film makers, producers, directors and scriptwriters. It provides low cost access to equipment and short training courses and produces materials for assisting film makers in developing their careers.

The Galway film resource centre is also very effective. It runs an annual film fleadh which acts as a market for film makers to meet international promoters and producers to see if they can access finance and co-production agreements. There is a number of smaller film resource organisations. There is one based in Kilkenny for young film makers and one based in Cork. They act, broadly speaking, to supplement the existing infrastructure for film development.

That is the film resource infrastructure that the Arts Council supports. It also provides assistance of about £150,000 annually to create awards for young film makers.

Deputy Durkan

Does the Arts Council get involved in the promotion of the commercial film industry generally? For instance, by way of liaison with film makers abroad.

Ms Quinn

I will pass that to the Secretary General.

Mr. Furlong

Under the general aegis of the Film Board, a Screen Commission of Ireland was established in March 1998 with the specific remit of promoting Ireland as a film and television production location. The Minister was in Los Angeles last week meeting with commercial film interests there and got what she termed a very positive response to her attempts to support the Screen Commission in promoting Ireland as a location for film and television production. As a tangible indication of what is being achieved under the section 481 relief for film makers, I am advised that 82 film and television projects, with budgets totalling £300 million, have been certified under this investment incentive for film producers. That gives some idea of the scale.

Deputy Durkan

That is what I was getting at. Given the importance of using that medium as a means of promotion of this country's wealth of culture, to what extent can the Department widen the net and extend its impact on the potential market?

Mr. Furlong

A strategic review was carried out of the film industry recently. One of the issues arising in that context was greater resourcing of the film board in its development grant strategy and in the provision of training facilities to grow indigenous skills in film making. Work on delivering the changes which that will necessitate is currently under way.

Deputy Durkan

Does the Arts Council play a front line role in that regard? For example, does it get directly involved in identifying the areas in which the film board or other agencies might get involved?

Mr. Furlong

I have no direct information on that point but I would have thought, given the nature of the activity and the shared interests on both sides, that that sort of co-operation would be a natural development. Perhaps the director could provide some practical illustration of what is happening.

Ms Quinn

I refer the Deputy to the film section, which he mentioned. The Arts Council sees itself as an advocate in the area of film as an art form and would promote debate and interaction between film makers as artists and commercial film makers. We see a reasonably clear delineation of our role as promoting film as an art form, promoting audiences for film, promoting the culture of film, bringing international contemporary art film into Ireland by means of the Film Centre's cinema and so forth. We are exploring jointly with the Film Board more opportunities for extending the exhibition circuit for "arthouse" or non-commercial films around the country. That is one of the main focuses of our developmental activity with the film board.

However, we see the development of film as an industry as the role of others and not of the Arts Council. We do not have a commercial scale of contribution to make. Our budget is not of that scale. It is provided for elsewhere.

Deputy Durkan

The Film Board has responsibility for that area. Unfortunately, I have to leave so I will make a final comment. It would be good to have reasonably close contact with the Film Board because I think the two functions are, to some extent, related. The time is right for the promotion of this country as a centre for the arts. That should be done, as far as possible.

Deputy Cooper-Flynn

What is the Arts Council doing to promote the arts in rural areas? What level of contact is there between the Arts Council and the local county arts officers of each county council? Is the expenditure of the council's funds evenly spread throughout the country? It is understandable that there is a concentration of grants in Dublin and Cork, given the population. However, is the council satisfied that a fair amount of its resources are being spent in rural areas to promote the arts?

Deputy C. Lenihan

In Castlebar?

Deputy Cooper-Flynn

In Castlebar.

Ms Quinn

A great deal of developmental work has started, with which I am sure the Deputy is familiar. County Mayo had an excellent county officer, who has been promoted out of the post. The focus of our development strategy with local authorities has been at the forefront of our work. It has been changing in the period between the last arts plan and this one. The Arts Council feels it has reached a level of basic provision, where each county either has an arts officer or plans to have one.

We have a working group with the City and County Managers' Association looking at this. The next phase of our work will be to raise standards, to increase the level of contribution from local authorities, to promote a better quality of planning for the arts in the local area and involve more people from each community.

We have disseminated information about the new strategic committee structure. We have encouraged arts activists to become active in the arts in their local community. We see the county arts officer network as an absolutely critical resource in supporting this. The linchpin of our local strategy is the relationships with local authorities.

In addition, we have many direct funding relationships with arts organisations based in areas around the country. For example, in Ballina there is an arts building which is under development, an arts festival and a theatre company. There are small theatre companies in the small towns and not just in the major centres. They get direct support from us in addition to our grant-aid to the county arts officer programme.

Deputy Cooper-Flynn

Is it a good idea for funding to be given directly to a particular group like that, and not channelled through the local authority? Ms Quinn probably knows why I am asking this question. Sometimes, if the configuration of a group changes after a grant has been given, the element of control seems to be lost. It would be better if it was done through the local authority. What is the policy on that?

Ms Quinn

In fact, we do both. One of our specific strategies in the current arts plan is to improve local structures for the arts. It is very much our desire to create a situation where the many small grants and indeed some of the larger grants, which at the moment are paid directly from Merrion Square to local centres, would be channelled in co-operation with the local authority. However, for that to happen we have to work with each local authority where they are interested in doing this work with us, to develop their own capacity to be effective dispensers of funds for the arts. That is a responsibility that we have and we share with local authorities. We are interested in promoting that. There is a specific programme outlined in the plan which describes how we are going about that.

Deputy Cooper-Flynn

In terms of a percentage of the total resources available, how much is spent outside the capital?

Ms Quinn

If one abstracts from our total spending the funding to the National Theatre Society, which is a very large single grant to a national institution serving the whole country, approximately 45% of our total spend is distributed directly to organisations based outside Dublin. A further significant percentage of the balance of 55% would go on touring organisations - promoting touring theatre, music and opera - which serve all the venues and centres around the country. Without having the exact figures, we are working on that kind of information and I would say there is an even split, or better, between Dublin and the rest of the country.

Deputy Gildea

Can you give a geographical breakdown on joint ventures between the Arts Council and Údarás na Gaeltachta, and tell us what is involved?

Ms Quinn

I am afraid I cannot provide a specific analysis of the programmes at the moment. I know they are based in the three major Gaeltacht areas and they involve local initiatives in artists' residencies in community arts - in other words artists working with people in local communities, in exhibitions, small festivals and some publications. However, I could perhaps furnish the committee with a specific list after the meeting. We do have such reports. In fact, there was a conference in Waterford about two months ago of the áisitheoirí to review the progress on the scheme. So perhaps I could provide a report of that conference.

Acting Chairman

Thank you.

Deputy C. Lenihan

Reading through the report I do not see any particular reference to disadvantage. What is the policy of the Arts Council on disadvantaged areas and bringing the arts to disadvantaged communities? It is an important matter. Arts bureaucrats are often accused of being very bourgeois in terms of their outlook and approach to things. Is there a specific plan for bringing arts infrastructure and the arts generally to disadvantaged areas?

Ms Quinn

With the Combat Poverty Agency, the Arts Council commissioned a major report on the question of poverty - poverty of all kinds and disadvantage - in relation to the arts. A committee chaired by Professor John O'Hagan of Trinity College produced a very important report whose recommendations were broadly welcomed by the Arts Council. A number of those recommendations have been consciously included in Arts Council planning.

As well as the Arts Council, a number of other State agencies were indicated as part of the outcome of the poverty report. The Arts Council is not the only player in the field of promoting the arts in local communities. In particular, I would refer the Deputy to the "artist-in-residence in the community" schemes that we promote. These schemes are intended to provide an opportunity for trained individuals to work more as facilitators in the process of helping people who have no experience of the arts to find a way into a knowledge and understanding of the arts, based on their own experience rather than taking them to see, for example, a theatre performance or a concert which might have no relevance to them or where they might feel unwelcome or estranged from the exhibition.

Those are the chief aspects of implementation arising from the poverty report, but the Arts Council feels that its policies are universal. The principles of equality inform all its decisions. The council sees the local authority arts officer network as the chief instrument for promoting an understanding of and access to the arts within local communities.

Deputy C. Lenihan

The Taoiseach has a co-ordinating role in relation to combating disadvantage. Is the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands represented on that committee in any way?

Mr. Furlong

From memory, I do not think the Department is actually a member of that particular committee. In the context of the review of arts legislation and arts policy generally that is about to get under way and that will hopefully lead to a new arts Bill to be enacted next year, one of the issues that will be pursued in the review is outreach to disadvantaged areas. It is a particular policy concern of the Minister's. She is anxious to see that the issue is pressed in the arts review and that scope for more initiatives in that area can be identified and maximised.

Deputy C. Lenihan

I have a final question for Mr. McConnell who, I believe, is the finance director of the Arts Council. On a European scale how do we compare in terms of investment in the arts? Are there comparative figures on how Ireland invests in the arts relative to other countries?

Mr. McConnell

That is something we are working on. We are closely involved with organisations such as Eurostat in Europe in gathering comparative figures for the spend both here and in other countries. In the arts plan, which is on page 7, there is a comparison of direct public spending on the arts and museums per capita in eight countries throughout the world. The Deputy will see that, in Sweden direct public spending - in Irish pounds - on the arts is £62 per capita. It goes down to about £4 in the USA. In the Republic of Ireland the figure is £12 per capita. Those figures were produced about two years ago, but the figure for Ireland is much better this year.

Deputy C. Lenihan

Could you read out those figures again?

Mr. McConnell

Eight countries are listed and I will read them in the order in which they appear. The figures are in Irish pounds per capita - Sweden £62, Finland £39, Quebec £36, Scotland £28, Australia £26, England £24, Northern Ireland £17, that does not include lottery funding, Ireland £12 and the USA £4. The figures are also given as a percentage of GDP. I will not read them all out but in Sweden it is 0.35% of GDP, in Ireland we spend 0.09% of GDP on the arts and museums. Those are 1997 figures, however, and they have improved considerably in the last couple of years.

Deputy C. Lenihan

By what order has our figure improved? It seems to be very low compared to Sweden but I suppose we should not always compare ourselves to Sweden.

Ms Quinn

The decision to award £100 million to the current arts plan would have made a considerable change to those figures over the 1997 result. Other arts spending by the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands in other aspects of cultural provision will also affect those figures. I do not have the up to date figure because these can not necessarily be produced topically. However, I hope that in time we will produce this kind of information on a tracking basis.

Deputy C. Lenihan

It would be nice if the Department or Mr. McConnell could update us with those figures when they become available just so that we will have the comparative data.

Mr. McConnell

Certainly.

Deputy C. Lenihan

Thank you.

Mr. Furlong

I would like to provide some further information for the Deputy on that point because statistics can be manipulated in a variety of ways. I am not clear as to what the statistics include, or do not include. I wonder if, for example, they include capital spend. There is very significant investment taking place at present in the arts infrastructure in the national cultural institutions. Under the 1994-99 community support framework, there was also the cultural development incentive scheme which provided grant assistance, I think, for 37 projects. The intention is that there will be a similar scheme with a level of funding under the current round of Structural Funding. That spending, plus the spending on capital investment taking place in our cultural institutions will, I hope, give a better gloss to figures which, on the basis of the way they are presented, show us towards the bottom of the league table.

Deputy C. Lenihan

The Secretary General says we are not at the bottom of the table. I would appreciate if he could come up with some reliable figures which have a comparative basis with other countries.

Mr. Furlong

We will do that.

Acting Chairman

I thank Mr. Furlong, Ms Quinn and the other officials. The accounts are noted.

The witnesses withdrew.