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COMMITTEE of PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 24 May 2001

Vol. 3 No. 12

Dundalk Institute of Technology: Annual Financial Statements.

Mr. Tom Collins,(Director, Dundalk Institute of Technology) called and examined.

I apologise for the delay in calling Mr. Collins. I must appraise him and his colleagues on the matter of privilege and make them aware they do not enjoy absolute privilege. Witnesses' attention is drawn to the fact that as and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act, 1997, grants certain rights to persons who are identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. Notwithstanding this provision in legislation, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or unofficially either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

With regard to relevant correspondence, it was requested at a meeting of 27 April 2000 that Dundalk Institute of Technology be asked to appear before the committee in relation to the examination of the annual financial statements and the relevant correspondence is dated 23 January 2001 from the Mr. Gerry Carroll, Director of Dundalk Institute of Technology. I ask Mr. Collins to introduce his officials.

With me is Mr. Gerry Carroll, head of development in the institute, Mr. Peter McGrath, secretary and financial controller and Mr. Brendan Keane, financial officer.

I call the Comptroller and Auditor General to outline his observations.

Mr. Purcell

There are two issues. The supplement to my audit report on the accounts of the institute for the year ending 31 August 1998 refers to shortcomings in the procedures for awarding a major capital project, which had financial repercussions for the State. Essentially, a builder, who was excluded from an approved list of firms for the contract to construct a new library and information resource centre, lecture theatre and linked building, forced the institute to reconsider its position. After obtaining advice from its legal advisers that procedures adopted had been flawed, a revised tender procedure was adopted. The aggrieved tenderer was successful in the competition, coming in some £700,000 lower than any of the firms on the original approved list. The net point is that if the excluded contractor had not kicked up a fuss, the institute would have had to pay that amount more for its building. Another way of looking at it is that if the correct procedure had been adopted in the first place, the building might have been completed sooner and at a lower cost taking account of inflation in the construction industry in the interim. That is one scenario and it is difficult to estimate what savings might have been achieved in that hypothetical situation. One scenario could put the potential savings as high as £300,000.

Consideration was given to going after the consultant architects for the costs occasioned by their failure to observe the correct tendering procedure, including £22,000 in additional legal costs, but the advice was that the cost and risk in pursuing the matter through the courts would not be justified. The lessons from this case have been taken on board by the institute and the Department and procedures have been changed across the sector generally and staff are now being trained in EU procurement rules.

The last time the institute was before the committee, a concern was expressed regarding the timeliness of accounts. The then director wrote to the committee in January of this year referring to some continuing difficulties the institute had in bringing the accounts up to the date, in particular the fact that its integrated accounts system has not quite come on stream as quickly as it had envisaged and he also referred to a lack of resources at administrative level which was hampering its attempts to bring the accounts up to date. That is the position.

I only signed the 1998 accounts on 6 March 2001. The accounts for 1999, have been audited on my behalf, by a firm of contract auditors. It also had problems in completing the work in terms of the availability of documents and so on along the way. There are still problems which I am sure the accounting officer will be able to elaborate on.

I thank Mr. Collins for the opening statement we received yesterday, which gave a good résumé of what he is doing in Dundalk. I note from the résumé he only came to Dundalk institute recently, so I wish him well.

Thank you, Chairman.

I would like Mr. Collins to comment on what the Comptroller and Auditor General said.

I thank the Chairman and his colleagues for this opportunity to meet them.

The Comptroller and Auditor General has effectively and fairly fully described the chronology of events and the background to the awarding of the tender for the LIRC building. As he described, the process began initially in summer 1998 when the design team employed by the institute went through a restricted tendering process initially and of 12 indications of interest it excluded four. One of the persons in the excluded group essentially sought legal advice and the institute also sought legal advice on his exclusion. On the basis of this advice the institute decided to recommence the process of tendering. That process began again in summer 1999 at which point one of the people who was excluded in the first batch was a successful tenderer and, as the Comptroller and Auditor General has pointed out his tender came in at 700,000 less than the lowest of the previous eight tenderers.

The delay, in that sense, represented a gain, a financial return to the State. One, however, recognises there were weaknesses in the process. As the Comptroller and Auditor General pointed out, a number of lessons have been learned from this episode. Standard EU notice for works contracts has been agreed at national level and standard procedures for short listing have emerged at national level. There has been a realisation of the need for training and it has been implemented in the area of procurement. While I am new to this sector, I look forward to considering the appointment of a procurement officer. I recognise the expertise and the returns that would be made to an institute like ours, if we have the resources to appoint a procurement officer. There is a specific clause in the memorandum of agreement with architects concerning procurement. In one sense, some learning has been taken from it. Members will be pleased to hear that the building has been completed on time and within budget and will be handed over next Friday.

With regard to the issue of the timeliness of accounts, which the Comptroller and Auditor General raised, we readily acknowledge this is an issue in the institute and we are unhappy about it. I do not necessarily want to detain members by going through a list of our problems in terms of staff numbers and so on. As to the solutions, the staffing issue is being addressed at a national level via the Chapman Flood Mazars report. We now have, for the first time, the full complement of staff in our finance office. That staffing problem there was a serious one.

I mentioned in my submission that having crossed the binary divide, it has been very clear to me that the number of non-academic staff in my institute is proportionately much less than anything I am familiar with in the university sector. It is taking us a while to get our staffing numbers in order. That part is being dealt with. The Comptroller and Auditor General referred to the delay in the completion of the accounts for 1999. This arose primarily because of the absence of procedures for putting in place an asset register. Those procedures are now in place and we will have completed the register before the end of the year.

The third area of our work is the integration of our payroll, especially with the nominal ledger. This has now been done and we are looking, as the last part of the process, at essentially digitising our personnel systems in order that we have integration within personnel and payroll. We are in the process of addressing the shortcomings in our reporting. We have monthly budgetary reporting and budgetary profiling in the institute. We now report monthly to the governing body on expenditure in the context of the overall budgetary profile for the year. On this basis you will find that our reporting sequencing and processes will be considerably improved.

When will we receive the report for 1999?

We are awaiting it. We have submitted it, as the Comptroller and Auditor General said, and it has gone to the Department of Education and Science. The contracted auditors began work with us in December 1999. They looked for further documentation and this was addressed. They returned to us again in February and completed the audit which they submitted to us in the last couple of weeks. We have sent it to the Comptroller and Auditor General.

I welcome Dr. Collins. I have been closely associated with the Regional Technical College in Dundalk, particularly in the period when this major development was taking place when my colleague, Niamh Bhreathnach, was Minister for Education and Science. Educational establishments tend to go for those in power. I wish you well.

I am familiar with the background to the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General. It is a detailed one on the sequence of events in the tendering process. It could have been a major disaster, to say the least. It probably caused much delay, which resulted in extra costs due to inflation, labour costs and so forth. Can Mr. McDonagh indicate what lessons have been learned from the experience in Dundalk in relation to the contracting process? Has the Department set down procedures for other institutes and colleges whereby they can avoid what happened in Dundalk?

I will make some general comments and then invite my colleague, Ms Killian, the expert in the building area, to supplement them. Obviously, the experience in Dundalk has brought to light weaknesses which we have moved to address. The Comptroller and Auditor General identified some of them in his report in terms of the introduction of a memorandum of agreement between the institute and the architects. The advertisement inviting contractors to tender has been changed and the change has become national practice. In addition, the Department has arranged courses for institute staff - two have already been held - in relation to this area to bring them up to speed in terms of best procedures and practices. Ms Killlian might wish to add to my comments in that regard.

Ms Killian

I have been speaking with the Office of the Chief State Solicitor and further courses will be organised for the institutes, if deemed necessary, as well as for Department of Education and Science staff.

Can I take it that you are going to produce guidelines?

Ms Killian

There are broad guidelines, but specific instances would probably require legal advice on particular difficulties, if there were some, and to make people aware of where these may arise. In order to avoid this, it is important to have continuing legal advice to bring people up to date on changes happening in European procedures.

Mr. McDonagh, was there any indication of the reasons the institute got wrong advice from its consulting architects, as appears to be the case from the report and the discussions that have taken place? Did anyone ever look at the reasons this happened? How could an institute of this size with a contract of this magnitude engage consulting architects to give advice which, it appears from the report, was substantially wrong?

Can I defer to Ms Killian in this regard since she has expertise in the building area?

Ms Killian

Architects on the project would be standard procedure; the Department and the institute would have expected this. That is the reason the memorandum has been brought in. They are aware that they advise the Department and it is standard procedure for them to be aware of European procedures. The courses we are organising are to ensure there will be expertise within the institute and the Department as well.

Would you not, as the senior person in the Department, expect that when an institute or college appoints consulting engineers, the engineers would have the qualifications to know the due process of both national and international law?

Ms Killian

That is the reason it is being written into the memorandum of agreement between the institutes and the consultants. It would have been expected, but in order to clarify that it is not just expected, it is written into the memorandum that they would have that expertise.

So you will look at their CVs in greater detail in future.

Ms Killian

They would be signing up to an agreement that they would participate in this.

Dr. Collins, this concept of outreach incubation centres is relatively new. Can you give an indication of what it entails? How many students are likely to be involved? My town of Drogheda is mentioned. I assume this concept is now being explored by the Department and that you see it developing not only in Drogheda, but also in Cavan and Monaghan.

The Deputy is familiar with the historical development of Dundalk Institute of Technology which has pioneered the development of campus incubation centres in the institute of technology sector, largely through my colleague, Mr. Gerry Carroll. We have now made a proposal to a number of State agencies to extend this innovation by developing an outreach campus incubation centre which will not be designed specifically for students, other than, perhaps, through lifelong learning initiatives. It will be primarily designed as a facility whereby start-up companies in knowledge based industries will be given incubation space and the expertise and technical support they require from staff in the institute as they start new company developments.

It has been difficult I understand, particularly from the State agencies involved, to attract high technology industries to Drogheda. One of the reasons we have focused on Drogheda is to begin to establish a base of high tech, small indigenous industries there. We have identified an attractive old building in Millmount Centre and are awaiting approval, primarily from Enterprise Ireland and, possibly, local enterprise agencies, to proceed with it. As you correctly suggest, if we succeed in the Drogheda project, theoretically this type of campus incubation project could start any place. This is part of what we are trying to demonstrate in Drogheda. We will certainly look to other places in the north east region and, possibly, elsewhere. This is part of what we are trying to demonstrate in Drogheda. We would certainly look to other places in the north east region and perhaps elsewhere.

That concept would be welcomed because the need for transport would be reduced. The roads around Mr. Collins's institute are probably the worst in the country in terms of accidents. It would also be welcomed by the commercial and industrial sectors in the region and particularly in Drogheda. I thank Mr. Collins.

What consulting engineers were appointed and were their costs paid in full by the institute? To how much did they amount?

A standard fee rate of approximately 6% would have applied.

To how much would that amount?

For this building, it would have been about £360,000 or £370,000. I may have to check the details of that figure.

Was there any question of withholding that payment on the basis of the work not being satisfactorily completed?

We have not addressed that question yet. There is obviously a mechanism for withholding payments on the basis of the work of the builder not being completed satisfactorily. I am not aware of such contingencies being built into contracts with design companies.

Perhaps I could ask Mr. Purcell about the situation. A sum of £370,000 is a large amount of money to pay to a firm which did not perform its specific role. It left out a tender that was £700,000 less than the other tenders. It is daft to pay that type of money without any restrictions on it.

Mr. Purcell

Since the building was delivered on time and within budget, I presume that they carried out most of their duties well. It was on this aspect where perhaps they were not aware of the proper procedures I said in my opening comments that consideration was given to following the consultants for the additional legal costs that arose in dealing with the aggrieved tenderer, which amounted to about £22,000. Whether one can extrapolate from this that they should also bear some of the potential cost of adopting or recommending the wrong procedure in the first place is a point, I am sure, the institute took up and took legal advice on. I understand consideration was given to it, but it was felt that the cost and the risk of pursuing the matter may not have been justified. That was a judgment call by the institute, but that is how I understand the situation. There was just one aspect.

Did anybody mention to this firm that perhaps there should be a rebate from the money paid to it on the basis that it failed to justify the work it was contracted to do?

As the Comptroller and Auditor General pointed out, the institute got legal advice on this matter regarding where the blame lay and the likelihood of recovering some of the costs associated with the handling of the process. Our legal advice suggested on the best judgment not to go down that route. Arising out of it, there is a specific clause in the memorandum of agreement which will cover precisely the issue that we encountered. That has since been inserted in these agreements, as the Department of Education and Science pointed out. If the matter arose again, it would be much clearer where the blame lay. In this case, regarding the respective responsibilities of the institute and the consulting architects, we thought we would probably be entering a battle that we might not lose, but which ultimately we might not win.

Regarding the college, in the 1995 report, Dundalk had probably the highest number in terms of the non-completion of courses. The figure for information technology was 70% while the figure for mechanical engineering in Dundalk was 67.3%. In one area, 81% of the student intake did not complete the course. The Letterkenny and Dundalk institutes were on a par in terms of the number of students who did not complete courses. What was the reasonfor this and how has it changed in the interim period?

The Deputy has raised a complex and interesting question. Retention rates are a huge concern within Dundalk and throughout the third level education system generally. On the basis of the data to which the Deputy referred, we have looked at our entire systems with regard to retention. In the past 12 months specifically, the college moved to put in place a learning support unit dedicated to the task of tracking students and supporting them particularly in their early months in the college. We have put a series of initiatives in place relating to foundation courses and orientation programmes. We are looking at new kinds of learning around project learning. All these initiatives are aimed at addressing the retention problem.

We are beginning to amass a body of data regarding the people least likely to complete their programmes. On the basis of the figures I have been considering in Dundalk, the real problem of retention relates to students who come in on low points, although it is not confined to this group. Clearly, dedicated supports for students with less than 200 points are necessary. Within the current systems, students who come in with less than 200 points are unlikely to get through first year. With the current level of supports, they cannot handle the demands and rigours of their academic requirements.

We are beginning to recognise retention as probably the single biggest issue confronting third level education. In our case, we are dealing with some other matters which are, in a sense, unique to Dundalk. If they are not unique to Dundalk, they are unique to our time. The opportunity cost of education is very high now. We conducted a study last year among our business studies students and 70% of them were engaged in part-time work. This may not be an issue for students who are well off - the relative importance of the opportunity cost declines for well-off students. However, if one is drawing students from lower socio-economic groups, the attractions of the workplace rapidly outweigh what is a demanding academic environment.

I assure the Deputy that since I joined the staff of the institute, no topic has been more to the forefront of the minds of the academic staff in Dundalk than the issue of retention, the overall quality of the learning experience and the types of challenges arising now in comparison to the challenges ten years ago.

What are the current non-completion rates?

They are not as high as ever, but they are still high. They are high in some subjects. Internationally, about 53% of ICT students throughout the system do not complete their courses. There is a serious retention problem in computer courses and engineering programmes not only in Dundalk, but throughout the western world. It is a very serious problem. They are dropping slightly.

The attractions of the economy are waning slightly by comparison to the attractions of getting a third level qualification. Two years ago these attractions were not evident.

Colleges, such as the one represented by Mr. Collins, will always have the problem that the points will be lower than in some of the major institutes of technology. I would like to see the up-to-date figures for non-completion.

I could give those figures to the Deputy if we were here next week. I will be happy to supply those figures to the committee by letter.

This data is for 1995 so it is out of date. I would like to see the completion rates in recent years. Dundalk Institute of Technology, Tralee Institute of Technology and the smaller institutes of technology will always have a problem with points. The entry points for Cork and Dublin will be higher. There will also be a higher demand for places in those institutes. However, institutes, such as Dundalk Institute of Technology, will have lower entry points. As regards the standards we want to achieve, it has often been said that the standards are too high, particularly in certificate classes. Given the non-completion rates, perhaps we should have a root and branch examination of what we are demanding from students. Perhaps we are setting the standards too high.

The Deputy asked many questions. The non-retention levels are not even across all courses. In the case of Dundalk Institute of Technology, for example, business studies and cultural studies courses have almost complete retention. There is literally no problem with retention rates. Many of our skills initiative courses, that is, courses dealing with accelerated training programmes or traineeship programmes, have a 90% retention level. The retention problem is impacting most forcibly on the 18 year old leaving certificate students with low points who come into an institute, such as the Dundalk Institute of Technology, or a university and find themselves, particularly in the computer areas, doing a course they thought they would like and, after the first month, they find they do not like it. All the anecdotal evidence I have on retention suggests that the key problem with retention is in the first three months of third level life. There is also a standards issue. However, part of the issue arises in relation to the level of support students get for changing courses and programmes in the first couple of months. We need more flexibility in that regard so that students can come into a university or institute, look at the course in which they are involved and if they find they do not want to be there, they do not have to drop out. They should have counselling and support to move to another programme.

As regards standards, we must retain our standards because otherwise the basis of the excellent academic repute of the country will be challenged. We can retain standards and begin to look at new ways of learning and assessment. I want to focus on assessment. The assessment procedures employed in third level replicate the assessment procedures employed at second level. Students with low points rates coming into third level have, by definition, had difficulty with their assessment procedures in second level. They are coming into third level and finding the same story. We need to look at how we teach, learn and assess. If we take on those three aspects of the equation, we might be able to retain standards and achieve the retention rates we all desire.

I was interested in the submission you sent to us yesterday in which you mentioned the peace process. You said that in order to advance it, you would establish a new centre for border land studies and develop collaborative learning networks with other such centres throughout the world. Perhaps you could elaborate on that.

I would be delighted to do so. Under the PRTLI , the Programme for Research in Third Level Institutions, the institute in Dundalk has designated four centres of research excellence. One of these centres is the centre for border land studies. We have brought together a number of academics in the institute, plus academics from all over Ireland and, in some cases, from abroad as part of this new centre. It will focus specifically on issues to do with the social, cultural, economic and artistic life of the Border area between Northern and Southern Ireland initially. We hope within 12 months to two years to have a degree in border land studies which would take in the richness of that Border area and capture it in an academic format and begin to celebrate the Border area. Frequently, border areas are not celebrated in any country one looks at around the world. We want to develop this type of expertise. We have already established contacts with border land studies in the United States, which is interested in the area of the border between Mexico and the US. We have made some tentative explorations of the Palestinian and Israeli border lands.

The issue of ethnic border lands in Ireland will emerge in the future. We have a large asylum seeking community within 25 miles of Dundalk. The institute will want to provide services to that community and to look at the integration between the different borders which are now emerging within the country. That is the type of vision we are working towards. It is a new departure by the institute, but we look forward to it with a great degree of excitement.

We note the financial statements. We remind you about the timeliness of presenting reports.

The committee will meet again on Thursday, 31 May to consider the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Appropriation Accounts for the Department of the Marine and Natural Resources, Vote 30 (Resumed) from 11 January 2001. It will focus on marine safety in Irish waters and on Coillte.

The committee adjourned at 1.40 p.m.
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