Skip to main content
Normal View

COMMITTEE of PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Tuesday, 25 Sep 2001

Vol. 3 No. 18

Dublin Institute of Technology.

Dr. Goldsmith, I welcome you and your officials back today. I want to make you aware that you do not enjoy absolute privilege and should be appraised as follows. The attention of members and witnesses is drawn to the fact that as and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act, 1997, grants certain rights to persons who are identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. Notwithstanding this provision in legislation, I should remind members of long standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Dr. Goldsmith, will you introduce your officials please?

Dr. Goldsmith

I am accompanied by Dr. Frank McMahon, Director of Academic Affairs; Mr. Stephen Manuel, acting Finance Officer, Mr. Ray Wills, Director of Finance, and Mr. Robert Lawlor, Institute Secretary.

I wish to point out that the Department of Education and Science is represented by Mr. Paddy McDonagh, assistant secretary general, Ms. Teresa O'Connor, assistant principal officer, and Mr. Frank O'Brien, assistant principal officer. I will begin by asking the Comptroller and Auditor General to make his statement.

Mr. Purcell

The accounts under consideration this afternoon are those for the year ended 31 August 1999, which were presented to me for certification soon after the institute's last appearance before the committee in May of this year. I am glad to say that I was able to give a clear audit report to the institute as there had been considerable improvement in the financial control framework since the events which had led me to give an unfavourable report in the previous year.

The committee will note that the institute is providing an accounting and administration service for the development of a management information system for the institute of technology sector generally. This is an ambitious programme covering common library, student, finance, human resources and payroll systems for the sector. It is being overseen by a consortium board which is representative of all the institutes of technology, with participation by the Department, and the latest estimates I have seen have put the cost at £35 million. Full implementation of the system in all of the 15 institutes is scheduled for January 2005. I would like to emphasise that the Dublin Institute of Technology's responsibilities here are purely in relation to handling the financial payments and so on. The overall project is being managed by this consortium board, and of course there is a structure beneath that which will, hopefully, manage it to an appropriate standard. I hope to return to the committee on that in due course.

I would also draw the committee's attention to the fixed assets note on page 15 which states that a complete property list has not yet been agreed with City of Dublin VEC. This refers to a dispute with the VEC over the transfer of properties when the Dublin Institute of Technology was being separated from CDVEC in 1993. The dispute involved five properties but I have been informed that agreement has finally been reached after eight years of haggling between two related State organisations. That is some good news on which to finish, chairman.

Thank you very much. Dr. Goldsmith, do you wish to make your opening statement? It has been circulated to members and we have scanned it. I must compliment you on the statement——

Dr. Goldsmith

I do not think I need to repeat it, chairman.

Okay. We will proceed to the questions. I call on Deputy Lenihan.

I thank Dr. Goldsmith again for his opening statement and I am delighted the Comptroller and Auditor General has given the institute a clean bill of health this year. I am a little intrigued by his reference - I know the work by the Comptroller is ongoing - to the consortium board. A total of £35 million has been allocated basically for streamlining services in all of the institutes of technology. Is that the case?

Dr. Goldsmith

Yes.

That is to cover payroll and what else?

Dr. Goldsmith

It is to provide a complete management information system across all the institutes of technology. The objective is to have a common system so that information, for example, can be processed centrally. Information will be coming in the same format and in the same general structure from all institutes of technology.

Is there any potential within that to allow for comparisons between institutes of technology? This committee has placed particular emphasis on, for instance, the costs that arise and the charges that are charged by local authorities, and getting to a benchmark figure where performance can be compared as between different institutes of technology. Is that part of this process?

Dr. Goldsmith

I suppose it is not an objective from the IT's end but I am sure it is undoubtedly an objective of the Department of Education and Science. As all the information will be in a common format I imagine it will now be a good deal easier to make those comparisons.

Given that this consortium board is about co-ordinating functions, is there not some framework for comparison as between, for instance, costs of courses in one IT, outcomes, drop-out rates and all the issues that are important to the IT sector?

Dr. Goldsmith

Yes, but at this stage of the process, and we are talking about a completion date in 2005 for this project, there are a number of different modules that have to be implemented. For example, Dublin Institute of Technology is going live on the student registration module. This will give us a very efficient and modern way to register students. In very short periods we will be able to take registrations through telephone links etc. We are putting in place the basic infrastructure but the reports that can be generated from such a process will allow you to make the comparisons you mentioned.

If you harmonise the registration system as between the different institutes, who will be in command? Where is the command structure in all of this?

Dr. Goldsmith

This is a management information system for each institute. Institutes will be able to do things with the system. For example, I will be able to compare the cost of a course in engineering against a comparable course in art and design. One will be able to make comparisons of local activity at a lower level and then consolidate that information to look at the sector as a whole. The Department will be able to access, quite easily, I imagine, information regarding the cost of an engineering certificate in Dublin Institute of Technology or Dundalk. It is a common design and a common infrastructure which will allow that type of question to be answered.

Do we have a representative from the Department of Education and Science here today?

On the question regarding comparisons of the different outcomes from different ITs in terms of value for money, the spending of taxpayers' money and specialisation, we have witnessed, in the past, unnecessary competition for particular types of courses from different ITs. I do not wish to single out the institute in Waterford but it tries to attract people wishing to do arts, business studies or science on a competitive basis. Will this allow us to specialise and permit certain ITs to take on courses they are best suited to deliver in a value for money framework?

What we are trying to provide is a basic infrastructure so individual institutions will have good IT systems to assist them with student registration, financing, payroll etc. One of the outputs of that will be better information. Separate to that, the Department is carrying out an exercise to try to set in place the wherewithal to develop a unit cost system for the allocation of budgets for the institutions. We have done a preliminary exercise in that regard. It is policy to move the institutes of technology generally under the aegis and remit of the Higher Education Authority in due course. As part of that exercise, we have been seeking to develop the unit cost system. This sort of management information will be invaluable in the context of developing the unit cost systems.

As to what extent the Department would become involved regarding which institute should deliver a particular course based on the differences in unit costs, I do not imagine we would take that approach. The allocation of future resources would be influenced and predicated on where one has efficiencies. If the unit costs in a given institution are inefficient and that is identified through the budgetary process, then there would be an incentive to the institution to try to become more cost effective and cost efficient in that area. I would imagine there would be difficulties if the Department decided the institute in Waterford should not run a particular course because its unit cost was higher than somewhere else. There is a degree of independence on the academic side in terms of running their affairs. We would be seeking to allocate resources having regard to the cost efficiencies.

The increase in drop-out rates is very worrying. It is happening in many ITs, including the one located in my constituency, the Institute of Technology in Tallaght. Is the Department trying to collate these figures in a meaningful way so that people completing applications are aware of the disparities in certain courses as between one IT and the next? That is very important. We are always planning education but, often, we seem to think the parents are the ones who count and we forget about the students. Will drop-out rates be properly analysed and made available to the consumer, i.e., the students entering the system so that they are aware of the rates that apply across similar courses in similar ITs. There should be an element of benchmarking so they can benchmark the performance of one IT as against the other. That would be good for students and parents. We are introducing this school initiative for evaluation system at secondary level. What level of comparison does the education consumer have in evaluating the various outputs, be it academic results, league tables or the performance of these institutes? I am keen to hear what savings are being made by centralising and co-ordinating these functions - a figure of £35 million was mentioned.

A number of studies have been done regarding attrition rates over a given time-span in the institutes of technology, Dublin Institute of Technology and the universities. The results of those studies are now in the public domain. One thing that has emerged from those studies is that the issue of attrition or drop-out is a highly complex multi-faceted problem. It is not down to any one issue; there are issues of choice of course, the type of subjects one has studied before embarking on that course, the issue of guidance before taking up the course, student finance and the amount of part-time work engaged in by students. The use of the word 'drop-out' can very often be misleading. A student may leave one course to take up another and that does not necessarily mean a student has dropped out of the system. In many instances a student will decide, 'this is not the course for me' or when he or she does not perform as well as he or she thought at the end of the first year he or she takes an alternative course.

What is the percentage between the drop-out rates averaged across the IT sector and the university sector?

The figure for the institutes of technology is approximately 40%; the figures for the universities are around the 20% mark. I am led to believe by those familiar with the international scene that the sort of rates we are experiencing - in the institutes of technology - are not out of line with comparable courses and studies in other countries. Similarly, the attrition rates in the university sector are not out of line.

It is important to emphasise when talking about attrition that we are not talking, in many instances, about failure we are talking about people taking up other courses. Students may decide not to take up a course in an institute and may attend alternative areas. The apprenticeship area is booming. Currently, there are well more than 25,000 registered apprentices in Ireland. We had only about 6,000 registered apprentices four or five years ago. We have invested quite heavily in institutes of technology to enable the institutes to provide the two phases of off the job apprenticeship training in the institutes of technology and FÁS have done like wise in relation to phase two which is delivered by it. There is a success story behind all of this in terms of the registrations we have and the throughput we are achieving. One has to look at it in context. In 1985 there were 55,000 students in third level education in Ireland. There is approximately 120,000 students in third level education today. There has been a dramatic expansion in the number of students taking up third level education. The system has to develop responses to that much greater cohort of individuals because there is much more variety in the students now entering third level than there would have been in the 1960s or 1980s.

I am gratified to hear we have such a high number of apprentices - 25,000. Is that increase in all trades, including the wet trades?

We are finding that the greatest demand in terms of our capacity to respond is in the building trade. There are the wet trades, brick-laying, plastering, carpentry, joinery, and cabinet making. The electrician trade is booming as well. We have reached the point where the ESB, in certain instances, is helping the Department of Education and Science in phase four because we have not been able to develop the capacity fast enough. In the past four or five years, we have jumped from a figure of 6,000 registered apprentices to well over 25,000.

Of those 25,000, what is the balance between males and females?

There is a very low uptake on the female side.

What is the percentage?

It is very small. I think it might be less than 1%.

Years have been spent trying to encourage women to enter apprenticeships. Has this been a failure?

FÁS has been trying to develop and make apprenticeships more attractive, but frankly it is very difficult to do so. Again, in comparison with other companies, it is not out of line. I understand that the Germans have a much broader definition of apprenticeships, which includes hairdressing etc. Generally, this would not be regarded as part of our apprenticeship provision. In making comparisons between ourselves, the Germans and other countries, one has to be careful that one is comparing like with like.

Essentially, apprenticeship is driven by employers taking on the apprentice first and then the State makes a provision for the off-the-job phases. There are seven phases in a standard apprenticeship. Three of those phases are provided by the State: 20 to 22 weeks by FÁS at phase two; and ten to 11 weeks each at phases four and six by the Department of Education and Science and institutes of technology. However, it is very difficult to solve the problem. I was a member of the FÁS board at one stage and it is something that came up at board level. If somebody has a solution, we still have not heard it.

About six years ago those in FÁS circles were very keen to get females to enter apprenticeships and they were striving to meet certain quotas. It would appear to Mr. McDonagh, despite the dramatic increase to 25,000, that matters have gone backwards rather than forwards. There have to be attributable reasons for that. The attempt to encourage females to enter apprenticeships appears to be a failure.

I am not the expert in the area. FÁS has primary responsibility, but efforts have been made and the results have been disappointing to date. Everybody would be prepared to admit that. It may well be an issue of how these trades are perceived by young women as opposed to young men.

I can understand the perception with regard to the wet trades, block laying, plastering and painting, but I would have thought the electrical apprenticeship would be attractive.

I do not have figures at my fingertips, but I think the figures are disappointing.

Mr. McDonagh mentioned a take-up figure of apprenticeships of 25,000. I and other members of the committee would be very interested in the breakdown for the different skill categories and the gender balance. At least we would know how successful or unsuccessful the whole process has been.

I will contact FÁS and try to furnish the committee with a breakdown, by gender, of the registered apprentices at present.

A few years ago I worked with FÁS, or AnCO, as it was called, and I remember making a statement in the Dáil at the time on the wet trade, the difficulty of block laying and the effort to encourage females to enter the trade. The press jumped on me the following day and said "Deputy drops a tonne of sexist bricks". That is a good few years ago. I am very interested in the success that has been achieved since then.

It is a very good point because it appears no progress is being made. I do not know whether the equality authority could investigate the area because we have probably reached a point where there is no role for women in these occupations. That is particularly disappointing because in certain skill categories, such as the electrician trade, employees can be springboarded to management, owner-management or higher earning occupations from which women were traditionally excluded. If we get the relevant figures, we should consider speaking directly to the equality authority to examine the issue because, clearly, there is little progress.

At some stage we should invite FÁS to the committee.

That is right, it should account for itself too - I am not blaming the Department. Where drop-out rates across the IT sector are concerned, has any effort been made to compute the loss or cost to the Exchequer, given that they are twice those of the university sector. I am aware there are good reasons there could be a variance between the two sectors, but there should be some effort by the Department to compute the cost of drop-out and to arrive at an accurate drop-out figure pertaining to people who leave the system and do not re-enter it at any stage. This is important. If we are to move towards a knowledge economy and people are dropping out of the IT sector at a huge rate, there will be long-term damage to society. We will have to pick up the bill at a later stage if people are, in a downturn, losing their positions, thus not being able to re-enter the labour market. I am interested to hear what efforts are being made in this regard.

I would also like to hear from the IT sector about positive moves to include information about drop-out rates in literature and information that are sent to students before they sign on for courses. One could have offered all the counselling in the world over the past few years, but one could never have stopped people crowding into technology subjects, computer studies etc. Pure greed would have taken over in most people's minds and they would have focused only on the great salaries to be made in the industry. Many parents - as I am aware from my constituency - pressurised children to get into IT-related subjects at Dublin Institute of Technology level. We should offer warnings to people because drop-out rates are huge in technology-based or computer-based subjects. All the evidence I hear from institutes of technology indicates that thousands of people are dropping out - they may be dropping out at ever-increasing rates now because of the downturn in the economy. However, it seems tragic that, over the past three or four years, thousands of people were encouraged, often by the Government, to enter the field and they discovered halfway through a year that they were wholly unsuited, whether it was because of a lack of numeracy or of technological understanding. People are dropping out of the courses and they have to find other ones. I would be interested to hear if Mr. McDonagh has any figures pertaining to that issue.

I do not know if the Department or the Dublin Institute of Technology managers are responsible. In terms of apprenticeship schemes, the figures have increased from 6,000 to 25,000, but are the drop-out figures comparable to those in the technology-based courses? Does Mr. McDonagh compute drop-out rates on the apprenticeship schemes? Again, based on information from my constituency, there seems to be very strong evidence of huge delays in down-loading from the Department or FÁS the academic content of apprentices' courses, often up to a year after starting work with an employer. This is a very serious problem.

I was talking to a person in the plastering business, who has apprentices, who told me that young people have to wait a year before they receive the academic material for their course. What happens is that they move from what is called phases one to three to four and feel it is not worth their while if they have to wait a year to get the actual academic qualifications. It leads to people not completing their apprenticeships. This is damaging when one looks to the future and considers the cyclical nature of economies in general. Has Mr. McDonagh a view on that?

I acknowledge that there has been a problem which has affected FÁS and ourselves. The expansion in apprentice registrations has been so dramatic over a short period of time that both FÁS and ourselves had to develop the physical capacity and recruit staff to deal with the training at phases two, four and six.

Is there a shortage of trainers?

There are issues concerning recruitment, particularly when there is a very buoyant labour market, in the wet trades in particular. There was also an element of physical capacity, developing workshops, with capital investment, and getting them built or getting the space to develop the workshop for the apprentices. I do not have the figures at my fingertips but we have increased capacity significantly over the past two or three years. Again, a backlog had developed because we were not able to develop the capacity as fast as the registrations were happening but we hope that in the next year or so we will have got over the hump in regard to that difficulty. In one instance the ESB is facilitating us on a phase four electrical apprenticeship by doing it on a contract basis to help us out in the system.

So you are out-sourcing.

We are out-sourcing as well.

That is important because that is the next point I intended to raise. In regard to the long-term, people in trades retire as they get older. Is any effort being made to get people who are already qualified in this area up to speed in terms of becoming trainers so that there can be training in both the academic and practical side of it on the job, so to speak, so that people do not have to travel to the course for relief periods or whatever? Is any effort being made to lift the capacity of the people who have proper training qualifications in these trades so that there will be a pool of people available at any one stage who can be brought in to train people?

I have allowed the question to go ahead but I am sure Dr. Goldsmith is totally relaxed and pleasantly surprised that we seem to be putting the Department of Education and Science under scrutiny rather than concentrating on the accounts. Have you any further questions for Dr. Goldsmith because I want to move on to Deputy Durkan? The representatives from the Institute of Advanced Studies are waiting outside. You might be interested in some of their cosmic research.

Yes, but before we move to cosmic research we have to deal with bricks and mortar, if that is all right with you, Chairman.

Unless you have a final question for Dr. Goldsmith, we will move on.

All these questions relate to Dr. Goldsmith in that the Dublin Institute of Technology has supplied us with a breakdown of the apprenticeships. These questions apply as much to Dr. Goldsmith as to the Department of Education and Science. It is just that the nice man from the Department has been volunteering more than the Dublin Institute of Technology.

Dr. Goldsmith

I could add more to the comments if you feel it is appropriate, Chairman.

Dr. Goldsmith

There have been interesting initiatives, for example, to use summer training schemes as an effort to try to increase the throughput. We have all been conscious that colleges tend to sit empty for a period over the summer and the Department has pioneered, in a limited but useful number of areas, a summer training scheme so that we have blocks of apprentices coming in to do a scheme during the summer. That has worked quite well and has helped to get over some of the hump that has developed in relation to the total numbers.

Chairman, could I go back to a point raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General about the fixed assets and the outstanding developments? Perhaps I could have an update on that as to what the problem is following the separation. This has been going on for two, three or five years.

Dr. Goldsmith

Since 1993.

How long is it proposed to proceed in that fashion?

Dr. Goldsmith

I think we can say, with a great deal of confidence, that it has now reached a satisfactory conclusion. There is agreement between all the parties involved. Some legal matters about the transfer of arrangements are being looked at as we speak. The Department of Education and Science has seen the issues and has agreed the way we are dividing things up so the Deputy can take it that this is the last time he will see this on the agenda.

Perhaps the Comptroller and Auditor General can make an observation in that regard.

Mr. Purcell

This was something that concerned me over the years. We had written to the institute and to the CDVEC about this matter as it appeared that there was a fair amount of procrastination - I will not say on which side - but undoubtedly there is an administrative overhead in this kind of haggling and so on about who should get what, but as Dr. Goldsmith said, it was resolved, I think as late as last June, and the legal niceties have to be put through. That is welcome but it should not have taken eight years.

Why did it take eight years and can lessons be learned from the elephantine experience surrounding that issue?

Mr. Purcell

I am sure the Accounting Officer can tell us what lessons he has learned from his side.

That is correct, and we might hear from the Department as well on the lessons that it has learned.

Mr. Purcell

When one is dealing with bodies that are legal entities in their own right, even though they have the same paymaster, which is the point I want to emphasise, they look on matters from what they believe are their own valid points of view and the interests of their organisations. I do not know to what extent these matters were being used as a bargaining chip in the greater scheme of things but, as I said, perhaps Mr. McDonagh or Dr. Goldsmith could apprise you of that.

Dr. Goldsmith

The Comptroller and Auditor General is probably spot on the button. There are people who feel that something belonged to them and obviously they were reluctant to give it up. I would say the VEC was the cause of holding it up but no doubt it would say I was not helping either, but it was a difficult situation, particularly where property had been acquired and there had been an understanding that it had been acquired for a certain purpose but not used for that purpose. I believe that was one of the issues. In terms of what we have learned, it is always easy with hindsight but there was a difficulty in the legislation in this regard that made it very difficult for anyone, including the Minister, to force the issue to a conclusion. I am not a lawyer, but that is my opinion. It was very difficult to reach a situation where it could be forced to a conclusion.

The Department of Education and Science might like to add to that.

At the outset, this is not my area of expertise since it is dealt with by the building unit of the Department. It would not have fallen into my area of responsibility, but I have found in the past that when there is a divergence of view between two statutory authorities the last thing the two statutory authorities want is for the Department of Education and Science to come tumbling in on top of them trying to issue diktats. I sometimes despair of that but at times it is a little like a protracted industrial relations problem. The people have to go through the agony of the process before they come to their senses and reach agreement, and sometimes the process is almost as important in arriving at the solution because if one tries to reach the solution without the process, nobody is happy and if people are not happy, they will not sign off.

I accept that, Chairman. What concerns me most is that the period from 1993 to date is a long time in terms of attempting to resolve any impasse. If a similar dispute arises in the future, which will happen in some other situation, the lessons to be learned from this should be applied and I hope it will not take as long to implement. Obviously there are ongoing costs associated with the delay in resolving the impasse and it is from that area that we need to learn the lessons. If a decision is made, and it is a matter of agreement or disagreement, as the case may be, between two statutory agencies, some way must be found of short-circuiting all the trauma of the delay which is costing money. On the consortium board and the £35 million project to which the Comptroller and Auditor General referred, how is that moving along?

Dr. Goldsmith

As I said earlier, the first module, the student registration, has gone live in Dublin Institute of Technology and, I think, also in one or two of the other institutes of technology. We see that as a significant first step. An enormous amount of infrastructural work is required before any change is made in this type of system. One does not see a great deal happening on the surface for some time. All the processes have to be re-engineered. It is not as simple as buying in a new computer system and plugging in all the existing processes. Getting what one wants from the system often means redesigning the whole internal process. We have done that in the area of student registration and that has been a very significant step forward. There will, of course, be an anxious trial period for a few months making sure everything works, but we are happy to date that everything is moving ahead.

To what extent do ordinary business and management principles apply when an institute such as yours takes such a project on board? It is a business. It is the classical event of those whose job it is to train and teach others to carry out and experiment in a practical way that is illustrative to everybody and beneficial economically as from the point of view of testing the theory.

Dr. Goldsmith

It has to be done according to the best business principles. This is a business project. We in Dublin Institute of Technology, and I am sure in the other institutes, talked in terms of business re-engineering in very much the traditional way. The consortium board also brought in expertise from outside - a senior accountant from the private sector chairs that board. We are taking a very hard-nosed approach to this. This is not a theoretical exercise, it is a process of implementation.

To what extent do you monitor the availability of talent coming from the second level institutions? To what extent do you monitor increases or decreases in available talent under various headings such as the sciences or maths? To what extent do you liaise with the second level institutions in attempting to ensure that shortfalls in any particular area are addressed in the first instance given your obvious role in providing for the private sector a finished product in terms of academic and practical qualification?

Dr. Goldsmith

Every third level institution takes very seriously its role of interfacing with second level educators. We send a great number of people to schools to liaise with them face to face. We run a significant annual conference for guidance teachers who also have a very important role to play. There are problems in areas like sciences and mathematics. We send people to the schools to encourage students in this area. At the end of the day the CAO system allows students free choice. That is unfortunate sometimes. I do not mean to say we should not give students choice. Science and engineering have not been popular for the past year or two. That is a very difficult issue to address.

That was my next question. To what extent have you interfaced with second level institutions to find out why that is the case? Demand in that area will be very great in the future. If we do not have suitably qualified people here, we will have to bring in people from overseas.

Dr. Goldsmith

Our people in the science and engineering area visit schools and make presentations to them. They have tried to market science and engineering in a much more attractive way. It is important to realise that we have identified guidance teachers as being very critical in this area. They have a very significant input to make in this area and so we have been working very hard with them as a body and at an individual level.

In view of the fact that this committee's interest relates to value for money in respect of expenditure, to what extent do you compare with other jurisdictions in the difficulties you experience on the subject matter under discussion and other areas whereby information available elsewhere may be available to you in advance of problems arising?

Dr. Goldsmith

One has to say that the downturn and drop in interest in science and engineering is, unfortunately, a north European phenomenon. One will find the exact same problem right through Scandinavia and northern Europe. It is a fundamental problem which has not been easy for anyone to address. The number of students wanting to take engineering, technology and science subjects is in decline right across those areas, even in the very large industrial areas, like Germany, which we tend to think of being engineering nations. Germany is experiencing a significant downturn in demand.

What reasons are given for that? It is hardly a climatic thing.

Dr. Goldsmith

I hope not. There is not much chance of us solving the problem if that is the case. There are a number of issues involved. There is a significant impact in the attraction to engineering caused by the role of mathematics. I am, and I know some members of the committee are aware, a mathematician. There is a serious problem in the area of mathematics. I would go as far as to say that mathematics is a barrier to recruitment into engineering.

What is being done to address that?

Dr. Goldsmith

It is a process we are trying to handle. The Irish Council for Science, Technology and Innovation set up a work group to process that activity. That has been ongoing for the past two years. We need to take some initiatives to remove this barrier. It is not an easy barrier to break down. People do not mind admitting they are innumerate, the same people would he highly indignant if you suggested they were illiterate.

To what extent has any analysis been undertaken regarding pupil-teacher ratios at second and primary levels as a grounding for this problem. I believe we need to address this problem at that point in the first instance.

Dr. Goldsmith

Speaking from my professional background and my interest in this matter over recent years, there is concern, in the Irish context, that we do not have enough well qualified mathematics teachers in secondary schools. Very often those asked to teach mathematics in secondary school are not mathematics graduates, and that is a real problem.

What can be and is being done to address that issue? A good idea would be to race ahead of the problem and try to divert the students in a particular direction, address pupil-teacher ratios and the lack of adequately qualified teachers in that area.

Dr. Goldsmith

A number of initiatives have been undertaken in Dublin Institute of Technology, some of which I started. In relation to mathematics, Dublin Institute of Technology has pioneered for a number of years a programme especially geared towards second level school teachers to raise the standard of mathematics. Most of the people involved would have mathematics at pass degree level. We have put in place a programme to raise the standard to honours degree. That has been moderately successful but it is not producing huge numbers. I know one or two other institutions have tried to do the same.

At a different level, in relation to engineering, one of the alternative approaches we have made is to provide some pre-engineering courses. They comprise a foundation course that allows students to receive a qualification that will put them on the bottom rung of the ladder. Mathematics is often a barrier and foundation courses, I think, have been successful in overcoming it.

Will Mr. Goldsmith state the drop-out rate among engineering students, either as a percentage or as a number, in the past five years or compared to 1993?

Dr. Goldsmith

I cannot give the Deputy the exact figure off the top of my head. I do not want to mislead him. I certainly could provide it for him in terms of the Dublin Institute of Technology, but I know the numbers of students in engineering stood still when we put in place initiatives to try to increase them. The initiatives did not have a big impact.

What initiatives were taken to increase the numbers? Were the entry points dropped?

Dr. Goldsmith

These were new courses on the skills initiative programme and we tried to design a number of courses that we thought would be a little different from the traditional engineering programmes, with a more modern emphasis and more attractive. However, I do not think that the net outcome showed a significant increase. In Dublin Institute of Technology numbers remained the same.

Are there fewer engineering students now relative to the entire number in the institute or does Dr. Goldsmith have numbers only for the engineering section? Does he have an overall percentage?

Dr. Goldsmith

For example, on the degree programmes in Dublin Institute of Technology, the drop was about 3% this year, which is in line with the demographic drop, which is almost exactly the same, but the number of students in engineering would have dropped by more than 3%. I do not have exact figures at hand but I can supply them if the Chairman wants them.

Yes. Before we move on to a different subject, Dr. Goldsmith mentioned guidance counselling earlier. He has more than 22,000 students. He has the largest third level institution in the country. How many guidance counsellors are there?

Dr. Goldsmith

When I was referring to guidance counsellors, I was talking about second level guidance counsellors.

How many are there in the Dublin Institute of Technology?

Dr. Goldsmith

In our institution, we have one person per faculty in terms of guidance and also one student counsellor. Student counsellors have a wider remit, but there is interaction between them. There is one per faculty so there are six of each.

On a ratio basis, some faculties would have less guidance than others, would they not?

Dr. Goldsmith

Yes. Obviously, our faculties are not exactly the same size because business and engineering are larger than, say, science and the built environment. However, the numbers are not widely out of line. At present we are coping. Perhaps we could do with more, as always, but to have a guidance counsellor and student counsellor per faculty is a reasonable provision.

What I am trying to relate is that one per 1,000 pupils——

Dr. Goldsmith

No. Again, one has to be careful in interpreting the figures. For example, if one takes the whole-time figures as being the appropriate ones, there are about 10,000 whole-time students in Dublin Institute of Technology, divided into six faculties. Therefore, there are about 1,600 people per faculty on average, and one guidance counsellor and one student counsellor for that number.

Is that not a massive workload for any guidance counsellor?

Dr. Goldsmith

It is. Of course, until very recently the majority of work came from final-year students, but the development of guidance is now quite interesting. There is an effort to intervene at a much earlier stage and to get students to think in terms of career development from day one. That is putting more pressure on our guidance people on one level, but I must say they have been responding by making very effective use of technology. They are very skilled users of the latest technology in terms of setting up systems that allow students to get the maximum out of them.

I often think that guidance in second level institutions is directed towards gearing students to move on to third level. The person who decides to drop out at leaving certificate level and seek a job is often extremely deficient in interview skills and often does not know how to effectively market themselves. For people who go on to third level, it is fine, but the people who decide to find a career after leaving certificate often find themselves in extreme difficulties when looking for a job.

I have often counselled people with regard to interviews, advising them to market themselves. There is a serious deficiency there, not at third level but at second level.

Dr. Goldsmith

There is an issue, without a doubt.

I must compliment Dr. Goldsmith, who is back after exactly four months. He was here on Thursday, 24 May and he came back with his accounts and the Comptroller and Auditor General said he is happy with the accounting practices in the institute. Dr. Goldsmith was involved the last time regarding the LRC report and I think there was a brief discussion on the matter. The report has been widely publicised in the media. At that stage, Dr. Goldsmith indicated he was appointing a human resources director and addressing some of the issues in the report. If there is an effect on morale within the college itself, it will affect everything else. Four months down the line, is Dr. Goldsmith happy with the current status and position?

Dr. Goldsmith

Yes, we have appointed a HR manager. We are in the process of recruiting a communications officer. We have made some responses to the union involved, moving along the partnership road, and we have had a partnership meeting as part of a national situation. Basically, things are moving along.

Dr. Goldsmith still has a bit to go, obviously.

Dr. Goldsmith

One can never say with certainty, but processes like this require response, and there has been a very favourable response right across the board. We are moving on, yes.

I thank Dr. Goldsmith and his officials and the official of the Department of Education and Science, who was here as an observer but at times took a lot of the limelight. We note the accounts. Thank you very much.

The witnesses withdrew.

Top
Share