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COMMITTEE of PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Tuesday, 27 Nov 2001

Vol. 3 No. 26

2000 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts.

Vote 31 - Agriculture, Food and Rural Development.

Mr. J. Malone (Secretary General, Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development) called and examined.

I wish to welcome Mr. Malone and his officials. The attention of members and witnesses is drawn to the fact that, as and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act, 1997, grants certain rights to persons who are identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. Notwithstanding this provision in legislation, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provisions of Standing Order 149 that the committee should also refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

Will Mr. Malone introduce his officials please?

Mr. Malone

I am accompanied by Mr. John Fox, assistant secretary at the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development, Mr. Séamus Healy, assistant secretary, Mr. Denis Byrne, assistant secretary; Ms Marian Byrne, head of the Department's financial control division, and Ms Geraldine Mullen, who is the head of our accounts division.

Who are the Department of Finance officials?

Mr. Malone

They are Mr. Niall MacSweeney and Mr. Tony Gallagher.

Paragraph 27 of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

27. Bovine Tuberculosis and Brucellosis Eradication

Introduction

Bovine Tuberculosis (TB) is a chronic disease in cattle. The disease may be passed on to humans who consume meat or milk products from infected animals. Brucellosis in cattle is a highly contagious disease, which can result in abortion, infertility, morbidity, and reduced milk yields. There is also a much higher risk of humans catching the disease than for TB through drinking unpasteurised milk from infected cows, by inhalation, cuts and abrasions, or by droplet infection.

It has long been official policy to control and/or eradicate TB and Brucellosis in cattle both because of the risks the diseases pose to human health and because of their adverse impact on markets in agricultural products, in particular export markets. The food chain is further protected by the pasteurisation of milk and through the meat inspection procedures in place.

Incidence of Diseases

Prior to the launch of the TB eradication scheme in 1954 Bovine TB was widespread with an estimated 80% of herds, and 17% of animals being infected. Rapid progress was achieved in reducing the incidence of disease in the first 10 years so that by 1965 the level of infection was reduced to 0.5% of animals. However, since then progress in further reducing the levels of disease has been slow and somewhat erratic so that more than 30 years on disease levels still remain stubbornly high at 2.9% of herds and 0.3% of animals.

The figures portrayed in the graph above do not include animals with disease detected by inspection of carcasses at Meat Plants.

Note 1975/1976 - No testing due to dispute with Irish Veterinary Union

The campaign to eradicate brucellosis commenced in 1966, when the incidence of disease was estimated to have been 12% of herds. Good progress was made in reducing the incidence of the disease, which by 1986 had been reduced to 0.19% or 100 herds, and the country was declared to be "officially Brucellosis free". However in subsequent years the incidence of the disease again increased, reaching a peak in 1998. In 1999 and 2000 the incidence reduced and that downward trend is continuing in 2001, as illustrated in the graph below.

There were 236 herds restricted as at May 2001.

Objectives and Scope of Audit

The objectives of the audit were to:

Review and evaluate the procedures put in place by the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development (the Department) over the years to manage and operate the programmes;

To review the degree to which the programmes have achieved their objectives;

To review issues and concerns raised in the past on the operation of the programmes and the steps taken to address them;

To ascertain policy in relation to the contribution to costs made by farmers and to review procedures for the collection of such contributions.

The policies, strategies and practices adopted by the Department in operating the programme were ascertained and their implementation reviewed, including the objectives of the schemes and the extent to which they were achieved. A number of reports of investigations into the operation of the schemes over the years were examined and the response of the Department to their findings reviewed. The procedures in relation to the collection of the farmer levy were also reviewed.

Audit Findings

Policies and Strategies

Tuberculosis

The initial policy when the scheme was introduced in 1954 was to eradicate Bovine TB from cattle herds and officially this remains the objective. However, given the experience in the past thirty years when there has been little improvement in reducing the incidence of the disease despite the expenditure of substantial sums, there is a recognition that the best to be hoped for in the short to medium term is to contain the incidence of the disease to an acceptable minimum so that markets, in particular export markets, are not jeopardised and so that there is no serious threat to human health.

The main strategies pursued since the scheme's inception has been the annual testing of all animals in the national herd, and the slaughter of all animals tested positive for the disease (reactors), as well as other animals in the herd. The main variations in the policy pursued are additional mandatory testing in certain circumstances such as when cattle are sold or are located in designated "black spots" or in contiguous herds, and the technical standard applied in judging whether animals have the disease or not.

Slaughtered animals are physically inspected by Veterinary personnel at Meat Factories for signs of the disease and the results of these checks are also taken into account in estimating and pinpointing the incidence of the disease. Also, in infected herds blood testing for TB may be conducted in addition to the routine tuberculin test. In addition, research into the persistent levels of tuberculosis is a significant aspect of the programme.

Of the total of 42,354 reactor animals removed in 2000, 39,847 were detected as a result of testing live animals on farms, and 2,507 were detected through inspection of carcasses at Meat Factories.

The EU have set down Regulations in relation to measures to be taken in Member States to combat TB and Brucellosis, which vary depending on the incidence of the disease. In Ireland, in addition to these measures, strategic testing of contiguous herds, herds in blackspot areas and follow-up test checks of derestricted herds six months after derestriction are also carried out. Other measures over and above EU requirements include a reactor collection service, a requirement to disinfect the holding and an epidemiological investigation into infective type breakdowns.

A separate executive agency, known as ERAD was set up within the Department in 1988 to eradicate Bovine TB, with an initial objective of halving the prevailing bovine TB levels within four years. Authority to determine policy and strategy and to manage the programme within an allocated budget was devolved by the Minister to a Board comprising a chief executive and representatives from the Department, farmers, and the Veterinary profession. The core strategy pursued by ERAD was to intensify the level of testing so that more reactors were detected and removed from the national herd, which it was hoped would in time lower the incidence of the disease. In 1989 and 1990, 11million and 13million tests, respectively, were carried out. This resulted in the removal of 43,500 reactors in 1989 and 41,500 reactors in 1990 compared to an average of 30,000 reactors per annum over the previous 20 years. The testing programme was curtailed in 1991 due to a lack of Exchequer funding but a further 36,527 reactors were identified in 1992 from 10.9 million tests.

There was increased emphasis put by ERAD on scientific method in operating the programme, through acquiring and analysing information and data on the disease, and using this knowledge in planning and deciding the operational measures to be put in place. A research programme was initiated, and there was increased contact with some other leading agricultural nations in relation to research into the disease and the measures put in place to combat it. ERAD also proposed the establishment of TB clearance zones by setting up different regions within the country based on disease levels with varying disease eradication enforcement measures, but the measure was not proceeded with due to opposition from farmers.

It was concluded that there was little evidence that the exhaustive testing programme pursued by ERAD was having the expected impact on the prevailing bovine TB levels, and in 1992 the level of testing was cut back to pre 1988 levels. It was also concluded that the target set for ERAD of halving the prevailing bovine TB levels was unrealistic, and that further progress in reducing or eradicating the disease would only come from additional measures based on research, knowledge and insights gained on the epidemiology of the disease. ERAD was disbanded in 1992 and authority for determining policy and strategy and for managing the programme was again assumed by the Minister and his Department.

In 1996 an Animal Health Forum was set up comprising representatives from farmers, the Veterinary profession and Department, whose functions were to advise the Minister on policy, strategy and operational matters. Pre-movement tests, which had been introduced in 1988, were discontinued in conjunction with revised arrangements whereby farmers undertook greater responsibility for ensuring the health status of their herds including payment for the first test of their herd each year. A computerised cattle movement monitoring system was introduced to provide a system to record animal movements.

In 2000 the Department were keen to reintroduce a pre-movement test but this was opposed by the farming bodies and negotiations are still continuing on the matter.

While the Department's objectives included, inter alia, a moderation in costs to the Exchequer and farmers, and a reduction in disease levels in the period 1996 to 1999, in fact disease levels significantly increased, and costs to the Exchequer also substantially increased. The increase in disease levels is attributed by the Department to the cyclical nature of the disease, higher cattle numbers, and possibly an increase in the irregular movement of animals.

The Department pointed out that disease levels also increased in Great Britain and Northern Ireland for reasons that have not been definitively established.

The Department's objectives for the planning period 2000 to 2003 are similar to those of the previous four years, and targets for reduction in the incidence of TB have been included in the Programme for Prosperity and Fairness (PPF). However, agreement has not yet been reached on the measures necessary to achieve these targets.

Brucellosis

Good progress was made in eradicating Brucellosis in the initial 20 years of the programme up to 1986, but there were setbacks in the programme over the next decade. This was attributed to a relaxation of the measures to combat the disease including the discontinuance of a pre-movement test, a dispute with Veterinary practitioners in 1991 over fees, and the introduction of a suckler cow scheme which resulted in a retention of old beef cows in herds in an effort by farmers to establish quotas. The programme to combat the disease was stepped up in 1997 and the PPF commits all parties involved to making significant progress towards eradicating Brucellosis within four years. Current arrangements provide for a statutory pre-movement, one sale, test, a voluntary post-movement test, a comprehensive contiguous herd testing programme, restriction of positive herds until a full calving cycle has elapsed and a slurry treatment programme.

Cost of Schemes

Up to the end of 2000 expenditure on TB and Brucellosis Eradication Schemes totalled £954m excluding administration costs of £391m. Some £340m has been collected from farmers through disease levies, and further amounts of £56m and £33m, respectively, have been received from the sale of reactors and from the EU. Expressed at current money values cumulative expenditure is estimated at £2.5 billion with receipts totalling £500m. The costs (excluding administration) incurred in 2000 on the schemes were £78m of which £29m was borne by farmers.

Funding of Schemes

Up to 1979 the Department assumed full responsibility for the funding of the schemes. However since 1979 farmers have been contributing towards the programme costs by way of a levy on milk sales to creameries, on cattle slaughtered at meat plants and on bovine animals exported live from the State.

In 1996 the rates of the levies were reduced in return for which responsibility for arranging and paying for annual herd tests, estimated to cost £14m, was devolved to farmers. It was intended that the amended rate of levy would produce a reduced annual Exchequer receipt equivalent to the greater of £10m per annum or 50% of the cost of compensation payments. This target was not achieved due to the almost doubling of compensation payments since 1996. Notwithstanding the failure to achieve the financial target the levy rates were further reduced with effect from July 1998 to take account of the cost to farmers of an additional test for Brucellosis. The costs of the revised arrangements are shown in Table 1. While the cost to farmers has remained stable, the overall cost to the Exchequer has increased steadily from £36.1m in 1995 to £70.6m in 2000. Excluding administration costs, the cost to the Exchequer has increased from £15.1m to £47m over the period. The significant increase in compensation amounts paid since 1996 resulted from the significant increase in the levels of disease and the number of animals removed as reactors.

A cost/benefit analysis of the Bovine Tuberculosis Eradication Scheme undertaken in the early 1990s concluded that the benefits of the eradication scheme substantially outweighed costs.

Table 1 Cost of Schemes (£millions)

Departmental Costs

1995

1996

1997

1998

1999

2000

Reactor Compensation 1

20.9

21.7

26.1

32.0

41.6

36.8

Testing Fees 2

19.4

11.8

5.9

9.2

12.8

11.0

Other Payments 3

6.6

6.8

6.8

8.8

9.9

10.8

Administration Costs 4

21.0

21.5

22.3

22.3

22.8

23.6

Gross Departmental Costs

67.9

61.8

61.1

72.3

87.1

82.2

Farmer Costs

Disease Levies 5

28.7

15.9

10.6

9.2

9.8

9.2

Testing Fees 6

-

14.0

18.0

18.5

19.0

19.4

Total Farmer Costs

28.7

29.9

28.6

27.7

28.8

28.6

EU Funding 7

3.1

2.7

8.5

2.6

0.8

2.4

Net Departmental Costs 8

36.1

43.2

42.0

60.5

76.5

70.6

1 This represents the compensation paid to farmers arising from the detection of TB and Brucellosis in their herds.

2 This represents the fees paid by the Department to Private Veterinary Practitioners for carrying out tests on its behalf.

3 This represents expenditure on supplies, equipment, services and research.

4 This is an estimated figure and represents the expenditure on payroll and other administration overheads incurred by the Department in operating the schemes.

5 This represents the levies collected by the Department from farmers to defray the costs of operating the schemes.

6 This represents the estimated costs incurred by farmers in respect of the annual herd tests, responsibility for which was devolved to them in 1996.

7 This represents amounts contributed by the EU towards the costs of operating the schemes.

8 This represents the net costs to the Department and Exchequer of operating the schemes when account is taken of the contributions received from farmers and the EU.

Employment of Veterinary Inspectors

There was concern in the past that since Private Veterinary Practitioners (PVPs) were testing cattle mostly belonging to their own clients, their independence was compromised and there might be some reluctance to find that cattle had reacted, and as a consequence animals infected with TB would be left in herds. A Public Accounts Committee Report16Dáil Eireann Committee of Public Accounts ^ Special Report on Bovine Tuberculosis Eradication 1994 completed in 1994 recommended that the Department should nominate the PVPs to carry out the tests.

Under arrangements agreed in 1996 responsibility for paying PVPs for the annual test was devolved from the Department to farmers. The arrangements that subsequently emerged during that year and which were implemented in 1996 were intended to give farmers and their practitioners greater responsibility for eradicating TB from herds. However, arguably this also had the effect of diluting the independence of the PVPs further.

The Department keeps detailed computerised records of TB tests conducted by PVPs for quality assurance purposes. These are analysed and aberrant cases isolated for follow up action. As a result about two PVPs per annum are struck off the Department's panel of authorised testers. Departmental personnel inspect PVPs who perform tests annually to ensure that they are competent and carry out the procedures correctly. Wholetime Temporary Veterinary Inspectors who carry out tests are inspected twice yearly.

The method of testing for Brucellosis is by analysis of blood samples in the Department's laboratory. Since the PVP's only task is to extract a blood sample from the animal being tested, conflict of interest concerns do not arise for Brucellosis testing.

International Co-Operation and Comparisons

According to the Department there is a high degree of co-operation and sharing of information among Veterinarians and Academic personnel carrying out research on the epidemiology of the diseases, the search for a TB vaccine, and measures to combat the diseases. In the late 1980s ERAD undertook a study tour of countries which had similar programmes to Ireland, and the contacts then made facilitated the setting up of an international research forum which comprises representatives from Ireland, New Zealand, UK, USA and Australia. The forum, which meets once every five years, includes both programme managers and research scientists, and discusses general programme strategies and determines the direction and support for the various scientific research areas. All data at both the scientific and programme management levels is shared.

The Department were also instrumental in getting the EU Commission to set up working sub-committees of the Standing Veterinary Committees to review the programmes being operated in the different countries. These groups visit the member countries and examine the programmes with a view to recommending best practice and ensuring that lessons are learned and mistakes are not repeated by other states.

The Department indicated that these international contacts are extremely valuable and provide very useful insights into the varying levels of TB in different countries and how best to manage the bovine TB disease eradication programme. However the audit findings suggested that lessons learned and insights gained from these contacts were not well documented or recorded within the Department, which could mean that valuable knowledge might be lost to the Department in the event of key veterinary personnel leaving. Better documentation of the information would also make it more accessible to a wider number of people within the Department, and provide evidence and assurance as to its value.

Research

Research has a key role to play in the effort to eliminate bovine TB. Prior to 1989 little research on the incidence of TB was carried out by the Department. However in May 1989 a programme of research was commenced by ERAD. Expenditure on research has ranged from about £0.5m per annum in the early 1990s to an estimated £1m annually at present.

A Tuberculosis Investigation Unit was established by ERAD in co-operation with Teagasc in May 1989, as part of the National Strategic Plan for the Eradication of TB in cattle. Its purpose is to investigate the factors, which militate against the eradication of TB in cattle at national or regional levels, and to identify means of improving the rate of eradication. The Unit is located in the Veterinary College in Ballsbridge, Dublin. A Tuberculosis laboratory has also been expanded in the Central Veterinary Laboratory in Abbotstown.

The main focus of the Research Programme is on the development of a badger vaccine, genetic resistance and badger removal programmes in designated areas.

Collaboration between universities is a major part of the research programme. Significant initiatives include zoological consultancy on a permanent basis from UCG, development of DNA probes and ancillary tests with UCG, and development of a novel probe with UCD to further delineate TB strain types.

Influence of Badgers on Disease Incidence

A badger removal programme has operated in East Offaly from 1989, and the number of reactors in the area declined from 326 in 1988 to 30 in 1995 representing a reduction from 3.9% to 0.46% in the number of reactors detected per 1,000 animals tested. This project indicated that a reservoir of infection in badgers was a significant constraint to eradication and that a wildlife element was an essential component of the programme.

Similar programmes commenced in four other areas in 1997. It is understood that results to date are broadly similar to those obtained in the East Offaly Project. The removal programmes are operated under licence from Duchas and are carried out by Farm Relief Service Operatives employed under strict supervision by Departmental staff. The Department, under the PPF is committed to carrying out further investigative work into the issue with a view to removing all sources of infection in the 20% of the country, which currently yields some 50% of TB reactors. Additional staff are being recruited to progress these objectives.

A feasibility study carried out by the Department in collaboration with the Department of Agriculture in Northern Ireland in 1994 indicated that vaccination of wildlife against tuberculosis was a viable strategy. This finding was supported by a subsequent international meeting in Geneva.

In 1998 experts in microbacteriology, immunology, zoology and pathology were engaged by the Department and the Universities in Dublin and Cork to advance a badger vaccine development project. International experts were also consulted.

The wildlife research programme has also provided useful knowledge about badger ecology. Details of their preferred environment and the interactions within and between groups have contributed to the development of strategies to minimise contact between the infectious badger and the susceptible bovine.

Collection of Levies

In accordance with Section 4(2) of the Bovine Diseases (Levies) Act, 1979 meat plants, small abattoirs, creameries, and direct sellers are required to furnish to the Department each month an accurate return, on the prescribed form, of the amount of the levies payable, and the appropriate remittances. The current rates of levies in operation are:

0.4p per gallon of milk,

£2.00 per bovine animal slaughtered or exported.

The audit findings indicated that the majority of clients, particularly the larger ones submitted their Returns and paid their levies on time. However, there were a small number of clients who were in arrears and have been for prolonged periods. In the event of clients in arrears failing to respond to requests for payment, the Department usually agree instalment arrangements. Legal action is taken for persistent non-payment over a prolonged period, and court judgments obtained.

Listings of legal actions in train and outstanding court judgments were not maintained which would facilitate monitoring.

The level of arrears owing to the Department at 31 December 2000 was £737,903. No aged analysis was available on the arrears which go back as far as 1986.

The audit also disclosed a case in which a company was dissolved on 3 May 1996 which owed levies totalling £247,508 dating from November 1994 to May 1996. The Chief State Solicitor's Office (CSSO) informed the Department in May 1997 that the company was liquidated. In July 1997 the Liquidator's solicitor informed the CSSO that the Minister's claim would be adjudicated upon by the Examiner of the High Court, and that in accordance with company law an application would have to be made to the High Court. The CSSO was uncertain as to the correct procedure and chose to obtain the advice of the Attorney General's Office regarding this application.

Despite reminders by the Department to the CSSO in 1997, 1998 and more recently in 2000 and 2001, the Department has not received confirmation from the CSSO as to the advice of the Attorney General's Office or if the Department's liquidation claim was or can be processed.

Conclusions

As is evidenced by the expenditure, substantial resources have been applied to combating Bovine TB and Brucellosis over the past forty years or so. While the Department are reasonably optimistic about the chances of eradicating Brucellosis, the objective of eradicating TB has not been achieved, and is unlikely to be in the foreseeable future. However the incidence of both diseases has been kept to sufficiently low levels so as not to be perceived as a significant threat to human health. Consumer confidence has been maintained, and markets, in particular export markets, preserved.

It would seem unlikely that there will be any appreciable reduction in TB costs within the next 10 years. However the Department is hopeful that the expenditure on Brucellosis eradication will decrease particularly in the longer term if the objective of eradicating the disease within five years is successful.

In the longer run there would appear to be grounds for cautious optimism in relation to TB eradication in that research, on a badger vaccine and gene resistance, may yield fruitful results. In addition the measures being put in place to control the badger population should enable TB disease levels within the cattle population to be further lowered.

The competencies and procedures developed and put in place to combat TB and Brucellosis, and the development of a more sophisticated cattle movement monitoring system, should also be of significant benefit to the Department in combating other diseases, and in providing assurance to consumers, and food suppliers and processors, in relation to the sources and quality of meat and dairy products, at a time when there is increasing concern about these issues.

It is accepted that the participation of Departmental personnel in the International forum and EU working subcommittee, as well as other international contacts makes an extremely valuable contribution as to how best to manage the disease eradication programmes. However it is important that the results of research and comparative studies are comprehensively documented and disseminated.

Given that the TB eradication programme has existed for such a protracted period of time there is a real danger that the problem will be perceived as being insoluble and a permanent feature of Irish Agriculture. This in turn could result in the programme drifting and lacking focus. Accordingly it is vital that the objectives set for the programme, both medium and short-term, are realistic, well thought out and vigorously pursued. There is some evidence that this has not always been the case. For instance the objectives set for the 1996 to 1999 programme of both reducing disease levels and at the same time moderating the costs to farmers and the Exchequer, would seem to have been inconsistent and unrealistic, and perhaps not surprisingly were not achieved. Even though the Department is now almost half way into the 2000 to 2003 programme, specific measures to achieve these targets have not yet been agreed with the farming bodies. A more focussed approach to setting and achieving objectives is warranted.

Arguments and compromises over the years about funding and levels of testing would appear to have been somewhat of a distraction from the substantive task of eliminating or reducing the incidence of the diseases. Discussions between the Department and the farming bodies seem to have given rise to compromises on the operation of the TB scheme contrary to what a strictly scientific approach would have suggested. These compromises may well have impacted adversely on the effectiveness of the programmes. Efforts should be made to devise long-term agreement between farmers and the Department on these and other issues. Such agreement should contribute to better teamwork between farmers and the Department, and more consistency and coherence in the operation of the programme as a whole. Structures to determine and resolve policy and strategic issues, and to address operational procedures and funding, were radically changed with the setting up of ERAD. These decisions were subsequently reversed but it may well be that the issues should be revisited.

Research into bovine TB which did not commence in any coherent way until the late 1980s, would appear to be yielding some promising results. The possibility of developing an effective badger vaccine, gene technology, and the information provided on the effect of badgers carrying the disease are the prime examples. The level of investment in research, which would appear to be running at about £1m per annum or about 1% of gross costs, might usefully be reviewed to ascertain if further investment would be likely to yield significantly greater benefits.

The procedures in place in relation to the collection of farmer levies appeared to be generally satisfactory and effective. However firmer action would appear to be warranted in relation to clients who are persistently late in paying the levy, not least in the interest of fairness and equity to the majority of clients who pay on time. In the specific case referred to in the report the evidence suggests a lack of diligence in following up legal measures for recovery. Listings of outstanding court actions should be maintained to facilitate monitoring and review. Old arrears should be reviewed and written off if considered to be uncollectible.

I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Purcell, to deal first with Paragraph 27 in introducing the accounts.

Mr. Purcell

Paragraph 27 sets down the results of an examination carried out by my staff of the schemes for the eradication of bovine tuberculosis and brucellosis. This subject has occupied the business of the committee in the past, most notably in 1994 when it issued its own report on the cost effectiveness of the bovine TB eradication scheme. That report drew on submissions from interested parties and also considered successful eradication programmes in Denmark and the Netherlands.

Over the years, we have spent nearly £1.4 billion on trying to eradicate both diseases. In the case of bovine TB, where most of the expenditure is focused, it is probably not accurate to talk about eradication because, despite all efforts, the rate of disease has remained at approximately the same level for the last 30 years, following the dramatic reduction achieved in the early years of the programme. In reality, therefore, minimising and controlling the instance of bovine TB has been the case up to now, although I realise that the Department's ultimate goal is eradication. I wanted to clarify that point.

Ireland was officially declared brucellosis free in 1986, but we seemed to take our foot off the pedal in the early 1990s with the result that the incidence of the disease increased in those years, reaching a peak in 1998. Thankfully, that trend has been reversed in the last two years.

In any evaluation of effectiveness, it is important to recognise that the incidence of both diseases has been kept at sufficiently low levels so as not to be perceived as posing a significant threat to human health. Consumer confidence has been maintained and markets - export markets in particular - have been preserved.

I draw the committee's attention to the main positive findings of the report. Some real progress has been made in establishing a link between the badger and the incidence of bovine TB and on introducing counter measures to combat the threat of infection transference from wildlife. There has also been a greater emphasis and a renewed effort on research as a means of eliminating the diseases. Better control of monitoring cattle movements has been an aid in traceability, although that has to be developed further.

On the negative side, there is a need for specific measures to be agreed with the farming bodies about how to achieve the targets set out in the Department's medium-term programme and a unified sense of direction among all interested parties about the structures and policies which are necessary if the programmes are to be successful. More consistency and coherence are required in this respect. There is some evidence that, in the past, compromises were made in the operation of the TB eradication scheme which militated against the effectiveness of the programme. My initial concern was that, with the recent preoccupation with BSE and foot and mouth disease, there was a danger that the long-standing problems of bovine TB and brucellosis might slip down the list of priorities and that the achievements, brought about by much hard work and financial expenditure, might unwittingly be undone. I was concerned that would have serious future consequences for the Exchequer but that does not seem to have happened. To some extent, measures to counter recent animal health threats have also contributed to the fight against TB and brucellosis. I am thinking in particular about stricter farm hygiene and better control over the movement of cattle.

In summary, meaningful progress has been made since 1994 but there is still a long way to go, with the likelihood of significant Exchequer funding for the foreseeable future.

I will deal with a couple of those positive points first, Mr. Malone. As regards the research by Mr. John Griffin and his colleagues on the link between the badger and bovine TB, I was under the impression that the badger is a carrier, but only because TB is there in the first place. For example, a number of colleagues have already asked why the badger is not wreaking the same damage across the Border in Northern Ireland. What is new in this study that raises the link with the badger as a major issue in the incidence of bovine TB?

Mr. Malone

If one looks at the progress in eradicating the disease, it is fair to say the programme stalled at a relatively low level - roughly 0.5% of animals per annum. We are unable to get sustained progress on that figure, year on year. That caused us to investigate what other factors came into the equation. For a number of years there were suggestions that badgers, or the role of wildlife, were a factor. Therefore, we took samples from the badger population, which provided evidence that something like 20% of badgers are infected with bovine TB. Deputy Rabbitte is correct in the sense that badgers are carriers. It is equally fair to say that badgers probably contracted the disease from cattle in the first instance. In other words, the strain of TB with which they are infected is the same as the one in cattle.

The next issue concerns the size of the badger population. There are a couple of hundred thousand badgers in the country, which is a significant figure. A fairly big experiment was undertaken in County Offaly, called the east Offaly project, where a number of badgers were removed under controlled conditions. It was a tight experiment and the result showed that when the badger population was removed in east Offaly, the incidence of TB in cattle declined dramatically.

We are attempting to replicate that experiment in four other parts of the country. It is also of interest to note the view of the authorities in Great Britain and Northern Ireland because they have a roughly similar problem in relation to TB. They have factored into their thinking the role of wildlife, specifically the role of badgers. The view of the Northern Ireland authorities - I do not wish to speak for them but we regularly liaise with them - is that the badger and wildlife is a factor. There is also a lot of work in the UK on the role of wildlife.

To anticipate a question, we do not suggest there should be a wholesale massacre of badgers. The Comptroller and Auditor General referred to research. We would be looking at some measures to perhaps manage the badger population where we know there is a level of infection in badgers and a high level of infection in cattle. We would also propose working in the long-term towards a vaccine for badgers. There are precedents in relation to rabies on the Continent. It should be possible to get a good oral vaccine for badgers and the systems to deliver it.

Are you immediately planning to replicate the east Offaly project in four different locations in the country?

Mr. Malone

At present there are projects under way in County Monaghan and County Donegal and in parts of County Cork and County Kilkenny. These would be in conjunction with the Wildlife Service and would be tightly controlled. We would try to remove a certain number of badgers and see, in a scientific way, what would happen.

What does the figure of 0.5% refer to in terms of the number of animals? The report of the Comptroller and Auditor General refers to 42,000 reactors being taken out in 2000 of which 40,000 were detected as a result of the testing. A further 2,500 were detected through inspections of carcasses in meat factories.

Mr. Malone

On an annual basis we carry out approximately ten million animal tests. The problem is that the number of reactors has ebbed from between 30,000 and 40,000 on an annual basis. It is less than 0.5% and is probably 0.4%, but in some years it has gone over the figure of 40,000.

Does that not take a soft focus view of a programme initiated in 1954? I understand the Comptroller and Auditor General referred to a figure of £1.4 billion, yet 30 years later we seem to be as far away as ever from eradication. Do you agree that it is difficult for urban dwellers, those not engaged in farming and taxpayers generally to understand that?

Mr. Malone

Yes, but the issue should be considered in greater depth and placed in a broader context. Under EU directives there is a legal requirement to have annual rounds of testing for TB and brucellosis. If they did not occur, we could not trade. There is a significant annual cost and I agree with the view of the Comptroller and Auditor General that the scheme uses money every year. Unlike some other measures, it is not a once-off programme. It needs to be judged in the context of our ability to trade. If we were to stop the TB eradication programme in the morning, we could not export cattle, beef or dairy products.

I am not advocating that. Almost ten years ago we talked to some of the interests in Denmark. If I recall, Deputy Dennehy asked the chief veterinary official in the Danish Department how bovine tuberculosis was eradicated. He looked at us with surprise and explained there was no great mystery about it. In 1959, the head of the veterinary department made an agreement with the head of the farmers' union to eradicate TB and it was done. Given the similarities between here and Denmark, it is odd that we cannot do something similar. You may say that is simplistic but it left a strong impression on me. Denmark eradicated the scourge in 1959.

Mr. Malone

That is correct. Denmark eradicated bovine TB over 40 years ago. On many occasions the question has been raised why we could not replicate that. I accept that in Denmark there was probably a greater level of co-operation between the farmer organisations and the Department. For whatever reason, the disease eradication programmes in this country became somewhat divisive and controversial.

The second aspect is that when Denmark eradicated bovine TB, agriculture was much less intensive than it is now. Even in Denmark, agriculture in the 1950s would have been quite extensive. Third, Denmark did not have problems with wildlife. With the benefit of hindsight, if the foot had been kept more firmly pressed on the accelerator in the 1960s when we felt we had eradicated the disease, we could have totally eliminated it. However, once it became established in the wildlife population, a different element entered the equation. The situation in cattle and on the farm can be dealt with, but another source of infection creates problems.

This is not a peculiarly Irish phenomenon. A similar situation applies in Northern Ireland, Britain and New Zealand, which would be regarded as a very progressive and forward thinking agricultural country. It has similar problems with possum.

Let me repeat, we do not suggest that badgers should be made the scapegoat for this problem but we must devise a workable way of managing the badger population where there is a source of infection. We must also work aggressively towards developing a vaccine for badgers. If we could do that we will have dealt with a fairly large dimension of the problem.

I do not wish to be overly simplistic about what is a complex problem, but I am not sure what you mean. Were there no badgers in Denmark? What do you mean when you say Denmark did not have a wildlife problem?

Mr. Malone

As I understand it, Denmark did not have a badger population to the extent that we have here. The disease did not become established in the wildlife population in Denmark. They were simply dealing with it in cattle.

On page 86 of his report, the Comptroller and Auditor General refers to the danger of the programme drifting and lacking focus and refers to the necessity to set clear objectives and so on. He states:

For instance, the objectives set for the 1996 to 1999 programme of both reducing disease levels and at the same time moderating the costs to the farmers and the Exchequer would seem to have been inconsistent and unrealistic, and perhaps not surprisingly were not achieved. Even though the Department is now almost half way into the 2000 to 2003 programme, specific measures to achieve these targets have not yet been agreed with the farming bodies.

Is that still the case?

Mr. Malone

There are a number of issues that we discuss with the farming bodies. Their focus tends to be very much on compensation for reactors. There is a clear target set out for the current programme which is to reduce the instance by 50%. Much of that centres around a targeted programme on wildlife and, in particular, in parts of the country which contribute the biggest number of reactors.

The Deputy will understand that last year we got slightly distracted. There was the foot and mouth disease crisis and the earlier BSE problem and those matters obviously took up much of our time. What we have done is designate staff to having a focused programme in the areas which contribute the highest number of reactors.

This discussion is focusing on TB. The brucellosis eradication programme is quite expensive also. We would feel that if we continue to make the progress we have been making over the past few years on brucellosis, where the number of reactors has been falling and we feel we are getting it under control, that will significantly bring down the cost. In 2000, brucellosis reactors cost the Exchequer £11 million. Obviously, if you half the number of brucellosis reactors, you bring down the cost.

The cost of the programme is an issue about which we have always been sensitive. It is an issue on which there has been a great deal of discussion between the farmer organisations, the veterinary profession and the Department. It is an issue which made its way into the programme for partnership. In fact, it was one of the most difficult issues and dominant themes when we were negotiating the programme for partnership. I would be very anxious to convey to the committee that we are anxious to have targets, we are anxious to have a strong focus regarding this programme and we do not want to have programme drift, as has been alluded to.

At whose door is Mr. Malone putting responsibility for the fact that that has not been possible to achieve so far?

Mr. Malone

I suppose part of it is at the Department's door but one of the things we have learned about disease programmes generally is that you cannot achieve progress by coercion. It has to be done through partnership and co-operation. The last thing the vast majority of farmers want is a disease outbreak on their farms, particularly a brucellosis outbreak, for example,which means the removal of the entire herd and can——

What is the analysis in the case of brucellosis? Why is it endemic to the extent that it is?

Mr. Malone

I would not regard it as endemic. What happened was——

I mean in the sense that we do not seem to be able to diminish it significantly.

Mr. Malone

In fairness, I think we are diminishing it. In 1998, we had 861 herd restrictions.

That was a peak.

Mr. Malone

That was a peak but this year we are down to 417. If we can keep that level of progress, I genuinely believe we will eradicate brucellosis. Brucellosis is in some ways a good deal more infectious than TB, but, at another level, it is less complicated and less complex in the sense that there is a laboratory test. There are no other complications whereas there are in the case of TB with regard to wildlife, for example. We would be satisfied, and I think the farming population in general would be satisfied, that if we can keep the pressure on with regard to brucellosis, if we can keep the current measures in place and if we maintain the same kind of progress we have achieved over the past two or three years, then I think we will break the back of brucellosis and we will eradicate it.

Can we return to page 87 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, where he is talking about the distractions which have existed from what he calls "the substantive task of eliminating or reducing the incidence of the diseases"? He states:

Discussions between the Department and the farming bodies seem to have given rise to compromises on the operation of the TB scheme contrary to what a strictly scientific approach would have suggested.

What is he getting at there?

Mr. Malone

The main area - there was a big difference of opinion - would be in regard to a pre-movement test for TB where the Department argued for days that we would like a pre-movement test. Just to be clear, a pre-movement test is a test on animals before they move. There is a pre-movement test for brucellosis.

The farm organisations strongly resisted that. There was not a meeting of minds and we negotiated literally for days. To a degree the issue has been caught up. Mr. Purcell referred to the point that, arising from the foot and mouth disease crisis, there is now a 30 residency requirement. In other words, if you buy an animal, you must keep it on your farm for 30 days. Therefore, this rapid pattern of movement, which was a feature, has been broken. That, I think, would be the main difference of opinion.

Does it not go back to the point made, which I ascribed wrongly or rightly to Deputy Dennehy, that that kind of obstruction would not be tolerated in, say, Denmark? We seem to have to toe the line, irrespective of, at worst, possible implications for human health but certainly of implications for the economy, in terms of our performance on this scheme over the past 30 years. Yet if the IFA lads come knocking on the door and the Department is subjected to pressure, ultimately it gives way, even where, in the words of the Comptroller and Auditor General, it is "contrary to what a strictly scientific approach would have suggested". Is that not a worry for the rest of us?

Mr. Malone

In an ideal world, if you can get the strict scientific approach, it has much to recommend it. I would not accept that we necessarily accept the IFA position. There were a number of other farm organisations involved as well and the co-operative movement was involved.

We have brought in many controls. There is a range of controls on movement. There is a very good identification system. There have been pre-movement tests in the past. It is not that we have always failed to bring in the pre-movement test. The pre-movement test has applied on occasions. What the farmers have tended to argue is that while it does not produce that many reactors, it is a cost on them, probably of the order of about £5 million per annum, and it does not give added value. Our view would be that it is a good precaution and it gives a good sense of responsibility. However, there are some issues on which one just cannot reach agreement and, unfortunately, this is one of them.

In terms of the farmers and the veterinarians, what is your assessment for the committee? Is there still a small number of rogue farmers out there who are putting the health of the industry at risk because of their cavalier attitude to these diseases?

Mr. Malone

The difficulties in eradicating TB - I would go back to the point that I feel we can break the back of brucellosis - are more deep-rooted than rogue farmers or indeed rogue dealers. It is certainly the case that there is a small number of rogue farmers. The figures available to me indicate we initiated 21 prosecutions in the year 2000. There is evidence to show there have been breaches of regulations and penal sentences have been handed down. I would argue it is a small minority, but it is an irritant in the system. Life would be a good deal easier if we did not have to deal with people who attempt or want to flout the regulations, but, at the end of the day, it is not the dominant problem.

For the simple minded, what is the dominant problem?

Mr. Malone

The dominant problem is the difficulty with wildlife. As far as I understand it, there are something like 250,000 badgers in this country, of which 20%, possibly more, are carrying the disease. What has to be achieved is a scientific breakthrough. That is the reason the whole research component of all this——

Would it be more accurate to describe the Department's policy as one of containment rather than eradication?

Mr. Malone

Yes, there is a strong level of containment in the programme, but we cannot give up on the goal of eradication. I would have to accept this and the graph on page 78 bears it out. There is a dramatic fall and then a pretty flat situation for a number of years. Until we get the scientific breakthrough it will be very hard to substantially reduce the figure, but it is not for the want of trying. Various initiatives have been tried. In the 1980s and early 1990s ERAD was established and a lot of outside expertise was brought in. We have consulted all over the world in relation to this. The best brains have looked at it, but a scientific development is needed.

The other point I am anxious to labour is that in relation to TB, one is probably not talking about total eradication, in other words, that there will not be a single reactor on the island. One is talking about getting the incidence down, for example, to roughly 1% of herds. One could then test every two years, not annually. If one reduces it further, testing can be scaled back. I see this, certainly in the medium term, as a more realistic objective.

I refer to the probity of veterinarians. Are you happy they are always only contributing to a solution rather than the problem?

Mr. Malone

This has been a fairly old chestnut and I suspect when the committee looked at it a decade ago it was a fairly live issue, whether veterinary practitioners should, in effect, test their own clients. We gave a lot of time to trying to break what was called the farmer-vet link. A totally different approach has been taken, which is more in line with modern thinking. In other words, the farmer has responsibility and pays for the annual test. This is in line with trying to make individual farmers responsible for animal health and the overall situation on their farms.

Generally veterinarians are professional. They answer to the Veterinary Council, are well trained and qualified and well capable of carrying out the test to a high standard. There have been instances, however - we must take action in a number of cases every year - where they do not do the business to the required standard and where we get evidence of this we deal with it.

The Department has spent 47 years trying to eradicate bovine TB and 35 years trying to eradicate brucellosis. I accept that every farmer wants to deal with this and none wants an infected herd. Our veterinarians operate to a high standard, but the taxpayer is opposed to this programme. Even though the Department has worked hard, why is it still such a failure? You referred to the chart on page 78, but it does not include animals with disease detected by inspection at slaughter houses. Is there a chart available with that figure? Carcasses at meat plants are not included in the chart on page 78.

Mr. Malone

It would not alter the chart too dramatically. A few thousand animals are detected at meat plants every year.

The figure would be a little higher. In comparison to the brucellosis figures, TB is like a cork in the water. In 1991-92 people were saying we would get more scientific and the scenario would improve. As the badger was blamed for everything, we started killing them, but between 1994 and 1998 the number of restricted herds increased. It must be disappointing for you that the Department has not been able to do better.

Mr. Malone

There was a view in the early 1990s that we were well on the way to eradicating brucellosis totally, particularly if one looks at 1991. It seemed to be in sight, but a number of things happened. First, in 1992 there was the reform of the CAP which created a new regime under which there were grants for suckler herds. Farmers then had to build, at short notice, suckler herds——

We are looking for reasons and must examine causes associated with humans as well as badgers. Was it a bad decision to force farmers to keep animals for a such a system?

Mr. Malone

It was an inevitable consequence of the MacSharry reforms, which were regarded as a good thing for the CAP and overall for the country, but one of the effects was farmers needed to build up suckler herds quickly. That increased the level of movement and, probably, in the odd situation they might not have been as careful as they should have been. There was also, definitely, a dealer factor. We tracked the initial serious outbreaks in 1994 and 1995 to a network of dealers. It is also the situation in relation to brucellosis that by virtue of the fact that the disease was almost eradicated, once it got a foothold, there was then a population of animals that was very susceptible. In other words, there was no in-built resistance to the disease and that, obviously, was a factor. However, in fairness to the farm organisations in relation to brucellosis, they accepted in 1996 that something would have to be done. We introduced the pre-movement test and intensified the level of testing. The situation peaked in 1998.

Did that enthusiasm only last for a short time? When did the testing stop?

Mr. Malone

For brucellosis?

Was there a break from testing?

Mr. Malone

No.

Was there an argument with veterinarians?

Mr. Malone

Perhaps what the Deputy is referring to is the fact we had dropped the pre-movement test in the early 1990s. From 1995-96 onwards we stuck with——

Was testing conducted at all times? Was there an argument?

Mr. Malone

No, we had no impediments.

I thought there was trouble trying to decide who should test herds in 1999.

Mr. Malone

There might have been a brief disturbance in 1995 and there was an argument, which was part of a big argument in 1991.

There has been a series of difficulties. We always appear to look at this in hindsight. At one stage we were inclined to blame those who dabbled and were not quite illegal, but were very near to it. It concerns the movement of animals. Should there not have been a massive improvement during the restrictions imposed because of foot and mouth disease? Are we seeing any improvement for those months?

Mr. Malone

I think we will, yes.

There will be a major improvement.

Mr. Malone

There is one point to understand. One does not see the benefit immediately. The nature of brucellosis is that, if one gets an outbreak in a herd next spring, it will be a consequence of something that probably happened last summer or autumn. We feel that we will see in the early part of next year the benefit of the measures brought in during the foot and mouth disease outbreak. We also feel, particularly if one looks at the graph on page 79 for brucellosis, that we can keep that graph going down. That is what we want to do. We have learned from the experience of 1991 that one does not take the foot off the accelerator and that, if one sticks with the measures, one can get systematic progress over a period. There is very encouraging progress in some counties, in County Kerry and the Deputy's county, for example, where the disease looked like getting a foothold.

The poor old badger is in the weakest position in my county. Most people identify me as a city Deputy and as urban rather than rural, but 37% of my constituency is rural and probably has some of the best farmers in the country. When it was mentioned in 1991 and 1992 that the committee was to examine this area, someone asked me the reason we did not take on something easier like draining the Shannon Basin. I said we would be very good, that we were the Committee of Public Accounts and that we would be very methodical in our approach towards eradicating the disease. There were nine recommendations in the 1994 Committee of Public Accounts report arising from that process. Have they all been implemented?

Mr. Malone

I think a lot of them were. I do not have the nine off the top of my head. The one that was not implemented would have been testing. That was taken to the ultimate. There were stand-offs, strikes. Eventually we and the Government decided around 1996 to change the approach totally and make the farmer responsible. One of the difficulties with all this is that, if it is just the taxpayer and the Department who are responsible for eradicating the disease, it is fairly obvious what is going to happen. What we attempted to do in the 1990s - it is very much in the mid-1990s and in line with current thinking - is ensure individual farmers are responsible for what happens on their own farms and holdings.

Perhaps it was decided that the sixth recommendation, the testing of herds which have a history of disease should be conducted by State vets, would automatically cause a difficulty because it involved outside intervention on behalf of the State. Perhaps it could be re-examined because the last thing we want to do is to spend a great deal of time devising recommendations which are not implemented because of internal wrangling.

Mr. Malone

At a quick glance, other than that one, virtually all the recommendations have been implemented. For example, a big challenge at the time was the computerised movement control system. That is in place. There is a whole system now for dealers and purchasers. There is also a new approach to derestricting herds. The testing is the one that ran into difficulty. I think we circulated a document giving some further information to the committee in relation to a certain amount of testing carried out by departmental vets. There was a cost effectiveness study done by Professor Séamus Sheehy of the whole regime. Carcasses are inspected for visible lesions. The disinfection condition is now part of the system.

Would the same apply to computerised tracking, of which I presume any breaches are an offence and that there is some type of penalty?

Mr. Malone

Yes, we have a whole regime of controls. Since the early part of this year our powers are even stronger. We have over the past 17 months brought a total of 21 prosecutions for breaches of different aspects of the regulations.

Deputy Rabbitte referred to the fact that it is a concern, considering how much we depend on the agricultural sector in terms of exports and how dangerous it can be in terms of our health, that there has been a failure to arrive at agreement. Targets for a reduction in incidence were set for the 2000 to 2003 programme, but agreement has not yet been reached on the measures necessary to achieve them. It is ludicrous, if we are one third of the way through a three year programme from 2000 to 2003, that it has not been possible to reach agreement. Is there any change in approach of some? Is there some resistance or can you inform us of the difficulties at this stage?

Mr. Malone

The main difficulty is that generally the farming community would see the value of the programme, but would also tend to associate hardship and difficulty with programmes, that they look at them, naturally enough I would have thought, from the point of view of the individual who is unfortunate enough to go down with a breakdown. They are interested in compensation and what systems are in place to support individual farmers. They also have argued that pre-movement testing in the past has not yielded that many reactors, in other words, that it has brought a layer of cost, but not much added value.

Probably what has helped from our side is that, first, we have the computerised movement control system. We now have a very good system for tracking animals. We can obviously focus our controls and systems much better. Second, arising from the experience of foot and mouth disease, we now have this 30 day retention bearing on a farm. In other words, if an animal is brought on to a farm, it has to be kept there for 30 days and not moved on again within a couple of days. We know from experience the difficulties that that has brought.

We are also allocating extra staff, particularly in relation to this whole area of wildlife, to these targeted areas. We are also setting up monitoring committees. That was one of the important points, that there would be monitoring committees set up at local level, in other words, that each county would have its own committee because, for example, the problems in county Cork would be different from those in County Donegal.

I presume there is total co-operation between North and South. The food safety laboratory was opened jointly last Saturday. In 1994 it was found in the North that their vaccination or different treatment of the badger was successful. We accepted this in 1994, seven years ago. It appears from what you have said that we still trying to develop a vaccine. There was a huge public reaction to the snaring of badgers. Inhumane attempts were made to take them out. Our colleagues in the North were able to develop a vaccine in 1994 and it appears to have taken us a long time to catch up. At the time they had a much lower level of incidence than us. You might say they were not testing as many animals. We were a bit cynical in saying that the effectiveness appeared to stop at the Border, but they had a vaccine programme or were working on one seven years ago.

Mr. Malone

There is a very good level of co-operation between ourselves and the authorities in Northern Ireland and we meet with them regularly and share information. We travel to Belfast and they come to Dublin. There is also liaison between the district veterinary offices on both sides of the Border.

Regarding the second issue, when it was examined seven years ago, the incidence in Northern Ireland was lower than here. Since then the situation has changed and the incidence in Northern Ireland is probably the same as ours. Therefore, the situation has disimproved in the North. At that stage they were not factoring the role of badgers or wildlife into their thinking. They were saying they did not see badgers as a problem and that, by virtue of the good results, the programme as it then applied was the best. Since then they have revised their thinking somewhat and the role of wildlife features higher on their scale of thinking. There has been considerable liaison between the authorities in Northern Ireland, the UK and here in relation to the broad issue of wildlife.

The badger vaccine would appear crucial. We are talking about billions of pounds. A survey in the early 1990s concluded that the benefits of the eradication scheme substantially outweighed its costs. Mr. Malone, would you conclude that this is still the situation?

Mr. Malone

Yes, I think the conclusions in that study are still valid from the point of view of exports and the well-being of the animal population. If bovine TB became seriously established in cattle as it was when the programme began in the 1960s, it would have a detrimental affect on output of about 3% or 4% per annum.

Perhaps everything in the 1994 report has been acted upon, but there may be other points we should be bringing to somebody's attention and it would be useful if we noted this. We must promote the concept of the badger vaccine, which I think is critically important. We were cynical about it in 1991 and 1992, especially when we found Denmark was so positive, but we cannot just keep throwing money at the problem and I would like us to see what points we need to take up or recommendations we should make.

Regarding the 1994 report, how many of the nine recommendations have been implemented?

Mr. Malone

I think about eight of them.

What is the crucial one that has not been implemented?

Mr. Malone

The recommendation concerning the farmer-vet link.

Which number is it?

Mr. Malone

It is No. 4.

Why has that one not been implemented?

Mr. Malone

It proved impossible to implement it. There were a number of serious disputes in the history of the regime which centred on this issue. The Department was insisting on the right to nominate vets. The veterinary profession and the veterinary union refused to accept that and no testing was carried out. A point was reached where it could not be negotiated.

The Minister in 1995 decided on a different approach, namely, that responsibility would be given to the individual farmer who, as the person in charge of his herd, had responsibility to arrange the annual test. If he did not have an annual test he could not trade. The current situation is that the herd owner rather than the Department arranges the test.

How feasible is it to undertake vaccination of the badger herd given the bovine herd has been so elusive in our attempts to eliminate various diseases? How will it be possible to contact individual members of the badger community with the view to them surrendering themselves to the usual tests or suggesting they curtail their movement in order to assist in the eradication schemes?

Mr. Malone

Delivery of the vaccine is feasible. It has been done in the case of foxes, for example, in the context of rabies, which was a big problem in Europe. We are satisfied it can be done in the badger population as much work has been done regarding the behaviour and movement of badgers and their interaction with cattle - we know quite an amount about this. The real problem is that a vaccine for that purpose has not been developed. If we had the vaccine we could deliver it.

How feasible is it to talk about the vaccine if it is not available? Surely we should be thinking about the armour we have as opposed to the armour we might have in future.

Mr. Malone

The facility we currently have is the removal of badgers which has been done in limited circumstances. The point was made that there would be public resistance to the wholesale elimination of badgers. It could well get to the point of having a better balance between the badger and cattle populations, in other words, that we reduce the badger population in areas.

I assume every badger has the virus, given that bovine TB was rampant in the 1950s in particular and the 1960s. Presuming the bovine herd infected the badger herd, I presume all badgers have it.

Mr. Malone

It is certainly the case that many badgers have it, but whether all badgers have it——

If the bovine herd infected the badger herd, every county in the country with a bovine herd must have a few badgers and if it is readily contagious, then all badgers must have it unless they have built up a resistance to it.

Mr. Malone

Our information indicates that every county has infected badgers.

Were they infected by the bovine herd?

Mr. Malone

They were infected by the bovine herd.

When was it first detected in the bovine herd and when was it first detected among badgers?

Mr. Malone

The programme in the bovine herd started in the 1950s. The infection of badgers became a serious issue on the agenda in the 1980s, so much work was done in relation to badgers in the late 1980s and particularly in the 1990s. There is also a connection in that the Wildlife Act made the badger a protected species and the badger population increased from the mid-1970s onwards. There was a dramatic increase——

The logical approach is that a means must be found to administer a vaccine to the badger population, otherwise the disease will continue to circulate. It is like beating one's head off a stone wall to attempt to isolate or contain the disease while awaiting a vaccine. I am not as optimistic as you in terms of administering it to badgers, but that is a matter for another day.

The last time the issue was mentioned considerable discussion revolved around the type of vaccines used for the detection of bovine TB. The same vaccine was not used in each EU member state. It is difficult to understand how it has been possible in some countries in the Union, regardless of wildlife directives, to virtually eliminate the disease, but not in others. It defies logic that the disease can be eliminated in Denmark or, to add insult to injury, in Northern Ireland, although in a peculiar twist to cross-Border co-operation the Northern Ireland TB eradication scheme is running into similar difficulties as our own. Evidently, badgers also cross borders. For example, there are badgers and other animals in Denmark which carry the disease. Will you explain this?

Mr. Malone

Denmark eradicated TB 40 or 50 years ago when farming was a good deal less intensive that it is now. I do not know much about the badger population in Denmark, but suspect it is a good deal smaller than the badger population here. That is not the point.

Does Denmark have a wildlife Act? Are badgers preserved?

Mr. Malone

I do not know. If TB is not in the cattle population, it will not get into the wildlife population. The problem in this country is that the disease probably got into the badger population some time around the 1960s, but more than likely in the 1970s when there was a build up in the——

Are there badgers in Denmark? Does anybody in the Department know? If the Danes were successful in wiping the disease out, surely the Department would at least have an analysis of all the factors involved in the achievements there and know whether the badger population survived.

Mr. Malone

They have wildlife in Denmark, but do not have the same population of wildlife.

Are there badgers in Denmark? Wildlife could include rabbits and hares.

Mr. Malone

They have badgers.

But you do not know the size of the badger population.

Mr. Malone

I can get it easily enough. The point I am anxious to convey is that we have done quite a lot of work. We talked to everybody we could in relation to ideas, opportunities and options in regard to eradicating the disease. The first thing we have done is we have gone to countries that have a problem, that are seriously interested in this as a problem. There is a lot of liaison with Northern Ireland, Britain, New Zealand and the United States.

Surely officials should visit countries which have had a successful campaign rather than those that are having a difficult campaign.

Mr. Malone

The second point I wanted to make was that we have talked to those countries. I am aware that a previous committee visited Denmark or certainly spoke to people in the Danish Administration, but we are not aware of any country that has eradicated TB in the past 40 years. That is the sad reality.

Perhaps we should call in officials from the Danish Embassy and ask them how many badgers there are in Denmark.

Unfortunately, that is not a reassuring thought for the future. Did the Department change the vaccine?

Mr. Malone

No.

Is the Department using the same vaccine as other countries?

Mr. Malone

What we are using is what is called a comparative test. There is an avian and a form of tuberculin test, with which the Deputy is probably familiar. Two injections are given and the reaction in the animal is compared to both injections. That is approved tuberculin within the European Union.

Does any country use that vaccine? Did Denmark use it, for example?

Mr. Malone

The Deputy is not comparing like with like because the science——

Mr. Malone

Because, in comparing a vaccine that is used now and one that was used 40 or 50 years ago, a lot of work and research was done. The particular vaccine that we use is manufactured in Holland and approved by the European Union. There is a lot of comparison work. It is not just an individual matter of deciding——

That is not my point. I do not accept that the vaccine is totally different. Its composition may be identical to that used in Denmark. Chemical analysis will establish this. Is the same vaccine used in Ireland and every other EU member state? Is the same one being used in New Zealand and Northern Ireland where there are difficulties eradicating the disease? I read a report about avian tuberculosis, which stated it produced a false response. What effect has this had on the overall scheme? Does it provide a true reflection of the testing programme? Individual producers always point out there never was an incidence of TB in their herds when they suddenly experience a severe outbreak. The land is sealed, the usual procedure followed and the badger or birds are found to be the culprits. It is a process of elimination in determining whether everything is done to generate the best value for money and the best result for the consumer, who is also the taxpayer.

Mr. Malone

Criteria are set down by the European Union as regards the standards for the tuberculin test, in other words the type of tuberculin used. As I said, it is a comparative test and certainly the case that it can identify what are called "false positives." That is an issue that farmers raise from time to time, that maybe not every animal identified is infected with the disease, but that is not the major issue or problem in the programme in the sense that subsequent testing, checking whether the animal, for example, has a lesion, will clarify the true extent of the infection in the herd.

We have attempted, for example, to take a more focused approach in relation to what are called "singletons." In other words, where there is a single reactor in a herd, which is often the situation, that can confuse a farmer where he has a clear track record and then suddenly one animal goes down. If three, four or five animals go down, it is not a question or an issue around the test. We have attempted, if a single animal goes down, to do some laboratory work. One could take tissue from the carcass of the animal and try to culture TB to genuinely prove if there is TB infection in the herd.

As far as I know the vaccine used in Northern Ireland is sourced in Weybridge in Britain. The vaccine we use is sourced in Holland. It must meet a certain standard and there must be results in relation to potency. Information must be provided on sensitivity and specificity. There have been efforts to develop other tests. This is possibly what Deputy Dennehy was talking about. The North of Ireland was doing work on a test called the GAM-Interferon test, which is a slightly different test. The difficulty with that test is that it is very specific, but may not be totally sensitive - in other words, it can detect false positives. What we have attempted to do is to use that test as a back-up to the existing tuberculin test. In other words, where there is a fairly serious outbreak in a herd and there is a question about whether that herd should be depopulated, we will bring in the other test as a back-up. We have attempted to use that in order to avoid depopulating the entire herd. In other words, we would try to identify with absolute certainty the reactors in a herd. This would save costs for the farmer and the Exchequer.

It has always intrigued me as to what happens in the event of a major breakdown in a herd, depopulation taking place and the herd being repopulated while badgers are still hanging about. I presume the badgers will not emigrate just because the cattle are removed. Have any studies been carried out on whether the subsequent herd will be equally infected by the badgers?

Mr. Malone

We totally depopulate herds that have suffered from brucellosis rather than from TB. We would do work on the farm to check the cause of the breakdown and to try to inform the farmer as to the problem. There are a number of options, for example. It could be that the farmer bought in infection, there was a latent infection already in the herd or it could be related to slurry spreading. There is a lot of evidence which shows that if one spreads slurry, one can spread disease. There is also the possibility of badgers. If there is a suspicion that badgers are implicated, herd owners bring the matter to our attention fairly quickly.

The situation in regard to wildlife must be considered. The question was asked earlier about identifying the role of badgers. In the past seven or eight years we have been able to identify the strain of TB. We could not always do that.

When a serious TB outbreak takes place, you can enter the herd owner's property, identify the cause or causes of the outbreak and advise accordingly.

Mr. Malone

Yes, within reason.

What happens when there is an outbreak of either tuberculosis or brucellosis which is identified in the herd? What is the sequence of events before the animals are acquired, slaughtered or whatever? I seem to recall from dealing with individual cases that there have been continual complaints by producers that the Department is somewhat lethargic in the way it moves after identification.

Mr. Malone

I do not accept that we are lethargic. Most people recognise that if an infection is left in a herd, one is playing with fire and not helping the farmer.

What is the average time lapse before the animals are taken out, slaughtered, disposed of or whatever the case may be?

Mr. Malone

The sequence of events is that the herd is restricted. The identification cards are taken and there is a process of valuation.

How long would that take?

Mr. Malone

We now have a system of on-farm valuation - we changed the system from the beginning of this year - where market value is paid for the herd. There are approximately 65 valuers who go to farms. One of the conditions agreed with the farm organisations is that farmers would not delay the removal of reactors. I assume that on average the process would be carried out within a week.

So the valuation would be done within a week?

Mr. Malone

Then there is the reactor collection service.

How long after that?

Mr. Malone

Generally within days. A meat plant would have to be identified to take the reactors. There is a fair amount of work involved.

How many days?

Mr. Malone

It can vary from one situation to another.

Three weeks, 21, 30, 40 or 50 days?

Mr. Malone

There have been disagreements with farmers who are not prepared to let animals go because they may not be happy with the value being offered for the animals. That can be a problem.

How do you solve the problem given that the whole purpose of the exercise is to achieve a better degree of eradication?

Mr. Malone

One of the ideas which was accepted by the farm organisations is that once the initial valuation has been carried out, the reactors would be removed. Farmers may not be happy and there may have to be an appeal, but the reactors should be allowed go.

Why do producers keep complaining about hitches, snags and flaws in the system at that stage? Will Mr. Malone agree that any snag, slow down or trip mechanism in the system at that stage is likely to discourage farmers or anyone involved from co-operating with the Department? Any discouragement at any stage in the system will create a further problem for the Department in the long-term.

Mr. Malone

Obviously depopulating or a fairly serious breakdown is a traumatic event for herd owners. There is no point thinking otherwise. Some 20 or 30 years work could literally go down the drain if a herd was depopulated. There are a fair number of logistical and physical aspects. The restriction is fairly clear cut. One must serve the notice and the valuation itself can be a fairly time consuming process. Given that one is now valuing individual animals, valuers must go out and physically carry out the work. One must then organise delivery and collection and there must be a meat factory which is willing, ready and able to take the animals.

What about fallen animals? What happens if a fallen animal has brucellosis or bovine TB, for example?

Mr. Malone

There is a separate system for collecting fallen animals.

I would like to know about the speed.

Mr. Malone

As far as I know, the onus is on individual herd owners to notify the collection service in regard to fallen animals.

Looking at this aspect, first, from an administrators point of view and, second, from an operators angle - the constituent who is operating at the other side of the counter - surely if you are interested in achieving a high degree of success, it must be possible to devise a system where there is an incentive on the part of the producer, the person who has the herd, to respond quickly. Failure to respond quickly in a situation such as this will create a problem. It is as simple as that.

Mr. Malone

In regard to fallen animals, there is a fallen animal collection service in place, paid for by the taxpayers. If an animal dies on the farm, the onus is on the herd owner to notify the fallen animal collection service. How can it be otherwise?

It is a good and efficient system which operates quickly.

Mr. Malone

It is as good as one will find anywhere and has been put in place in the last 12 months. It is all part of the effort in regard to BSE and fallen animals. The problem of animals being buried or dumped in rivers or drains has been dealt with. There is a system in place and the fallen animal collectors are well known. If the herd owners or farmers do not inform the collection service, that is their responsibility. We cannot be held responsible.

On the issue of a quick and efficient collection system, the reactor collection service was organised by the Department. The onus could be put on the herdowner to ensure——

I have two final simple and easy questions, the first of which relates to the beef destruct scheme. To what extent was an analysis done of the animals destroyed under the scheme in an effort to identify disease such as bovine TB or brucellosis? That would have been simple because, as 300,000 of them were dead, they would have been easy to catch.

Mr. Malone

There was very little done because it was a destruct scheme. We took in approximately 300,000 animals virtually overnight. The purpose of the scheme was to destroy the animals and take them off the market. There would have been some monitoring for brucellosis in relation to the female animals going through the plants. The scheme must be seen in the context of the sheer scale of the measure. We made more use of it than any other member state. I think we did a very good job, both in its efficiency and operation. I would defend it anywhere. Our task was to take in the animals and process them quickly, efficiently and in a cost-effective manner, which we did.

I do not propose to go into the merits or demerits of the scheme. My question related to the degree to which it had been harnessed to assist in the disease eradication programme. From the reply it appears it was not used in that context, which I think was an opportunity lost.

Mr. Malone

By way of clarification, the animals that came in were males over 13 months, of which the vast majority were steers. First, they would not have been seen as a problem in relation to brucellosis; second, it would have given us very limited information in relation to TB and, third, I cannot emphasise sufficiently the pressure of the physical effort involved in dealing with the issue. This was the equivalent of 150,000 tonnes of beef.

The badgers are the culprits in regard to TB? What is the story about brucellosis?

Mr. Malone

Brucellosis was within sight of eradication in the early 1990s, but got out of control. Dealers were involved and there was an element of complacency. There was also a national herd which was very susceptible to brucellosis which would have been seen very much as a disease of the 1970s and 1980s. There was, therefore, very little in-built resistance. The situation peaked in 1998. If we can maintain for the next few years the progress achieved in 1999 and 2000, I believe we can eradicate the disease.

When was bovine brucellosis first identified?

Mr. Malone

For literally hundreds of years it would have been a fairly natural disease of animals. Serious eradication of brucelloses began in the 1970s when a lot of progress was made. By the early 1990s total eradication was within sight. The lesson we have learned is that one does not assume total eradication will happen of its own volition, therefore, we must maintain the pressure. However, I believe we can eradicate the disease.

Before moving away from this question I would not like to be negative about the vaccine against brucellosis and the badger aspect. I believe a scientific solution is needed in this area. A very effective scientific group, including Dr. Paddy Sleeman, has been working on this problem for six or seven years. UCC and UCD are working on it together. It is a while since the feasibility of producing a vaccine was initially mentioned. Have you any up-to-date information on how near we are to a solution? I am aware they are speaking positively in this regard and believe they will break the cycle of carrying the disease between the two animals if they produce the vaccine.

People might be a bit cynical about administering the scheme. There is no problem, for instance, in tagging fish, counting them, putting them back and so on. People thought that could not be done. I believe the administration of the scheme can be handled if the vaccine is available. Whether it means capturing, inoculating or feeding them, it can be done. I would like to know how advanced are we in the production of the vaccine and whether the six or seven eminent people working in the field need extra funding?

Mr. Malone

The work done by Paddy Sleeman is fairly central. He has done a lot of work on the behaviour of badgers which leads us to believe that the delivery of the vaccine is not necessarily a problem. He has carried out a fair number of trials. The document circulated includes a note on the development of the vaccine. I believe the objective is attainable. Within the scientific realm, it is probably one of the more attainable objectives. However, I cannot put a timescale on it.

But you are supporting it. Have your staff——

Mr. Malone

Yes, we regard it as central. I am anxious to labour the point that we would see research and development as the way of getting out of this logjam.

While we are not allowed to make recommendations on policy, I would like to be assured that we will not waste billions if we can invest in schemes such as this. I appreciate everyone will be making a pitch for their own solutions. However, once it is being supported financially and we are working on the cost benefit analysis, one of the primary objectives should be to support this research.

Mr. Malone

We are tracking research developments all over the world and looking, in particular, at countries that have tried to develop vaccines in either the animal or human area. We have developed linkages with institutions in the United States. We have sent people to New Zealand and have links in Australia. We track and become involved in any work taking place anywhere in the world which could be of help in either the animal or human area.

It is good to hear that.

I agree with what Deputy Dennehy said in regard to scientific matches with the badger. I am reminded of postcards I have received "Save the Badger." There is a body of people who see the badger as a very nice animal and part of our wildlife. Mr. Malone said there are four experiments ongoing in four different counties in relation to badgers. When you say badgers are taken out, can I take it you gas them?

Mr. Malone

They are snared. A particular type of snare does not choke them, it captures them. Then I assume they are killed. The nature of the experiment is to remove an element of the population of badgers and then see what that does for the level of TB in the area. There was an interesting experiment done in east Offaly.

That was flagged very much. The first experiment you did with the badger population was in east Offaly. At the time the incidence of TB was very high in that area and the Department decided to carry out an experiment. Earlier you said it turned out to be a successful experiment. Do we deduce from that that TB is no longer prevalent in the area and has been totally wiped out as a result of your activities?

Mr. Malone

It is at a very low level. It is an area which would have been identified as having a high incidence of TB. It was a well defined area with natural boundaries. When the badger population was removed the incidence of TB fell but, more significantly, it did not increase again. The disease has a three year cycle. One can have two good years and an upsurge of the disease in the third year. In east Offaly there was no visibility of the cycle. The level has remained at approximately 0.5%.

How does that compare? What is the overall percentage nationally?

Mr. Malone

It is 3.6%.

Would one deduce from that that there are no badgers in the area at this stage?

Mr. Malone

There might be the odd one migrating but, by and large, it is an area free of badgers.

If it recurs we will have proof that the badger is not exclusively the problem.

Mr. Malone

There is already evidence that if one could deal with the badger population that would impact positively on the level of TB. The difficulty that exists is that eliminating the badger population is not a feasible proposition. I do not think public opinion would tolerate it. There must be another way. One other way is to manage the badger population. There is evidence to show that if the badger population is kept reasonably in balance, it need not be totally eradicated.

One must go down the scientific route. What happened in relation to rabies in Europe is very instructive. There was a huge problem with fox rabies in Europe, which was a threat to human health. A programme of dropping vaccine from the sky has eradicated rabies as a problem in the European Union.

On page 81, the Comptroller and Auditor General makes a criticism. Your objective for 1996-99 was the moderation of costs to the Exchequer and to the farmers and the reduction of disease levels in that period. The Comptroller and Auditor General's reportstates:

While the Department's objectives included, inter alia, a moderation in costs to the Exchequer and farmers, and a reduction in disease levels in the period 1996 to 1999, in fact, disease levels significantly increased and costs to the Exchequer also substantially increased.

When you were doing your objectives for the planning period 2000-03, your objectives again were similar to what you had in 1996-99, in which you were not successful. This report was done in September 2001. It states:

However, agreement has not yet been reached on the measures necessary to achieve these targets.

The report of your current research was produced in November and I do not know if it has been released publicly yet. It highlights what you are doing, and a lot of good work is being done by the research programme for the elimination of disease. The report states:

I have every confidence that significant progress may now be made in a relatively short time frame.

Significant is probably an imprecise word that could mean anything. What is significant? You say agreement has not been reached on the measures necessary to achieve targets. Unless you get agreement on your targets, you will not make significant progress.

I am afraid that a new Committee of Public Accounts will be discussing this same paragraph in a year's time and considering the fact that agreement has not been reached on the measures necessary to achieve targets. Have any parameters been set with regard to achieving targets or are you afraid to discuss the issues involved with farmers for fear or raking up other difficulties?

Mr. Malone

The target with regard to brucellosis is total eradication.

That is the target, but you must set objectives for achieving the target.

Mr. Malone

We have a whole range of measures in place. There is the pre-movement test, a range of laboratory tests, checking at meat plants——

We know about those. What about the objectives regarding agreements with farmers?

Mr. Malone

On brucellosis, there is a fair measure of agreement between the farm organisations.

On the TB side?

Mr. Malone

On the TB side, the big difference of opinion centres around the pre-movement test. There has not been a meeting of minds on that issue. Some of the measures relating to foot and mouth disease, particularly the 30 day residency requirement, give a fair degree of the kind of benefit we could have gained from the pre-movement test. We have raised the question and have spent many days arguing about it. One of the fundamentals of the approach to programmes for the eradication of TB and brucellosis has been a degree of consensus. We have always attempted to involve the farm organisations and the veterinary profession. It is not a case of one side imposing its will on the other. The farmers make a contribution to these measures through disease levies. They also carry the cost of testing, which used to fall on the Exchequer. They feel they are entitled to have a say in the strategies followed. That is the big issue.

Farmers feel we could do more withregard to wildlife. However, we are constrained by legislation. We are anxious to work closely with the Wildlife Service of the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands. We push for a stronger approach on movementand they push for a stronger approach on wildlife.

Why was there such a serious underestimate in the Department of the cost of the bovine TB and brucellosis eradication compensation awards for this year? A sum of £47 million was earmarked and it went over £58 million.

Mr. Malone

It was not necessarily an underestimation.

Surely it was. That is what it looks like to me. Something must have happened.

Mr. Malone

We have to negotiate with the Department of Finance. We have to get the best figure. It is trying to achieve the best provision we can in the Book of Estimates. It is understood that this is a demand-led scheme. One cannot predict amounts exactly. We can probably tell, within reason, the number of reactors we will get next year, but we cannot tell precisely. The same is true of brucellosis. We can have projections, but depopulating a few very big herds can throw the figures one way or the other. It is not a case of our estimates being totally inaccurate but a balance of trying to secure the best possible provision and an element of what actually happens on the ground. It is important that we maintain the pressure on brucellosis. That will bring the cost down significantly.

Paragraph 28 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

28. FEOGA Operations

The EU makes monthly advances to the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development, refunding payments made to farmers and others who are eligible to receive support under the Common Agricultural Policy. The accounting year for FEOGA operations ends on 15 October. By the following 10 February, the Department submits a detailed claim to the EU itemising all expenditure incurred and amounts received on behalf of the FEOGA Guarantee Fund. The claim is certified by a private firm of accountants (certifying accountants) appointed by the Department in accordance with EU regulations.

During 2000, 1,316m was incurred on FEOGA expenditure as shown in Table 2.

Table 2 FEOGA Expenditure in 2000

£mExport Refunds381Intervention Costs(38)Production Aid85Premia Schemes573Other support measures315Total1,316

Disallowances by the EU in 2000 totalled £10.7m. In addition to the certifying accountants and normal management controls, the control procedures in the Department include an Internal Audit Unit. The unit also reports on the results of its audits to an audit committee, appointed by the Minister to advise on the development of internal audit within the Department. During my audit of Departmental FEOGA operations I examine the reports of both the internal auditors and the certifying accountants and rely on their work, where appropriate, to enable me to fulfil my audit mandate.

Mr. Purcell

Paragraph 28 briefly outlines the accounting and auditing arrangements for FEOGA guarantee expenditure, which in 2000 amounted to £1,316 million. The committee will note that the disallowances for the year totalled £10.7 million, which arose in three areas related to activity in 1996 and 1997 and would have arisen under the clearance of accounts which, with the EU, is usually a few years in arrears before final clearance is achieved. The three areas were early retirement, where 2% of expenditure was disallowed on the grounds of delays in implementing departmental controls, area aid, where £5.7 million was disallowed on the grounds of delays in carrying out control measures, and the suckler cow scheme, where 1.2% of expenditure was disallowed because controls over the eligibility of replacement animals were inadequate. The Department put improvements in place in the interim. New national accounts for all FEOGA guarantee and guidance transactions were introduced, a point the committee was interested in, and these will come before the committee in due course.

Was £10.7 million lost to the Irish taxpayer because we paid it but the EU disallowed it?

Mr. Malone

Yes.

As a percentage, how does this compare to other EU states? Are we ahead in fraud, or whatever it was related to?

Mr. Malone

As Mr. Purcell stated, this covers two years. Approximately £6 million relates to 1996 and £4 million to 1997. It is not fraud but EU auditors not being totally satisfied that controls were conducted in detail. We rate at the top of the class most years.

We are better than the others.

Mr. Malone

Yes.

What is the position regarding the early farm retirement scheme? The take up last year was less than anticipated, but is it generally working?

Mr. Malone

Generally, as a scheme, it has worked ahead of expectations as we have 9,000 participants. It is the most successful scheme in that area and we were the biggest users in the European Union. In 2000, the usage was not as high because we were finishing off one scheme and starting another. To date we have about 700 applications for the new scheme. Like any scheme, there will be a slow build up but it is attractive for many farmers.

I was concerned when I saw the amount spent on it but that explains it.

Is it as popular as it was since it changed recently? Farmers who availed of the scheme could lease their land with a quota attached which was a lucrative source of income, but, during the clawback, they were asked to part with the quota which went into the national milk pool. Now such farmers cannot let the land because other farmers want land with a quota attached. Many of these farmers would now prefer to continue in farming as they no longer have this extra funding, but the Department says that the land must remain fallow.

Mr. Malone

That is true, but we must realise that it is a retirement scheme. The European Union pays people to retire. The connection with the milk quota is fair in that it made it attractive for some farmers but that decision was taken because a problem with dormant quotas was developing. People with quotas were not milking cows, resulting in extra costs in the system.

We have the same phenomenon with REPS, the other big scheme in that area as we are leaving one scheme, which had a level of usage beyond expectations in the first five years. The build up on this scheme will be slower but it depends on individual farmers. It is attractive to some who have options outside farming. However, it is too early to say. I could answer the question in a year's time.

Could Mr. Malone tell us more about the area aid and the cow suckler premia?

Mr. Malone

We are required to carry out a 5% minimum inspection. In 1996 and 1997, we were introducing the new digitised system of mapping in which we invested a large amount of money. We now have a detailed map of every land parcel in the country. That delayed the inspections because the inspectors needed accurate, detailed maps of the farms. Therefore, we fell short of the 5% and the EU auditors took a basic view and imposed the disallowance.

Did you know that beforehand?

Mr. Malone

No. These problems arise retrospectively and are sometimes matters of interpretation.

We will come back to that. Those of us who still have farmers in our constituencies can point to cases where, out of the blue, a disqualification arises when farmers did not know there might be a penalty. What can be done to eliminate that by setting out from the start what the criteria are and to what extent they have to be complied with? We want to eliminate the situation where Brussels suddenly disqualifies people with costs to the Exchequer. This results in people being disaffected with the EU as the vote on the Nice Treaty showed. I would like to know a little more about that particular case.

Mr. Malone

It is probably one of the more difficult aspects of operating these schemes. There are huge amounts of money involved - hundreds of millions of pounds. Multiplying that across the European Union involves a huge level of resources as the European Commission tries to set down the rules for 15 different member states where conditions are not equal. A genuine effort is made to set out the rules as cogently as possible, but at times this can result in pages and pages of detailed rules and differences in interpretation can arise down the line. Different auditors come from the Court of Auditors, the Commission and OLAF - an independent body - and these can interpret regulations differently.

The suckler cow area, where we suffered a disallowance, is probably the best example of this. There was a disagreement between ourselves and the Commission on the regulation concerning the replacement of a suckler cow within a quota by an in-calf heifer. We felt that was permitted within the regulations but there was a disagreement between the Commission and ourselves as to whether that could be done. Eventually, it accepted that we could do it but felt we had been too lenient in our approach and too tolerant of the situation. For example, where a farmer had 20 suckler cows, got rid of two of them within retention and bought in two in-calf heifers, it said we were taking too lenient a view of that and disallowed us £3.7 million.

The consequence of that is that we have to revisit our rules and regulations. We should not fall into the same trap again. The scale of the problems in this country is quite small compared to other member states. We are aware of disallowances in other member states several times the size of our disallowance as a result of differences in interpretation and opinion.

May I ask a question on the Vote?

Yes, it is allowed.

One of the common complaints we come across is that people lose out because of a purely technical reason. For example, somebody changes address and moves from one part of a parish to another without informing the Department, but it is written somewhere in an application form for area aid or REPS that the applicant must notify the Department of a change of address. The applicant may have been traumatised during the period in question but is now disqualified as a result of failing to notify the Department. The attitude is that the applicant should have notified the Department. Of course he should have done so, but he did not break any law or hamper any system or scheme run by the Department. This type of disqualification on a technicality is a common complaint.

Mr. Malone

We set out the rules of schemes clearly and provide information and booklets and a website with clear details of the schemes. We liaise with Teagasc so that the advisory service can——

Can I give an example from last Monday of a person I met who did not get an area aid form in the year 2000 but was paid area aid? He made a fundamental change this year from the criteria for area aid and was not paid for the year 2001. The Department's response was that it advertised it through the Teagasc office, through the media and everywhere possible to encourage him to apply for area aid and to look for the form. The man is illiterate and cannot read or write. The Department assumes that everybody knows what is going on and what changes have been made. I feel sorry for this person because he has always been paid his area aid. In 2000 when he did not get a form he was paid so he assumed it was the same for 2001. The Department must realise that there may be a cohort of people in the same situation. The area aid form and others are difficult for any person to fill. The Department has general regulations, but it should also be sensitive to specific situations.

Mr. Malone

I do not want to give the wrong impression. Individual cases are brought to our attention and we attempt to adopt a human approach. The original criticism when the schemes started was that we were not efficient in the issue of payments. Now we probably have the most efficient payment system in Europe and the speed with which we deliver payments is a reflection of the progress we have made. A second problem encountered by a lot of farmers was that there were difficulties with transcribing herd numbers and mistakes were made. Much of that problem has been resolved by the new traceability system. We now have a system where we can run some schemes without applications having to be made, for example, the slaughter premium. I accept that we will never get our communications exactly right but we have gone to extreme lengths to communicate. We publicise widely, we provide information on our website——

The website means nothing to this man.

Mr. Malone

I accept that.

The natural assumption is that Teagasc links in with every farmer. Teagasc has to be self-financing so it links in with certain farmers depending on what job has to be done.

Mr. Malone

We have also held public meetings and sent our own people to halls around the country where they have worked with the Teagasc advisers. These meetings have been well attended. Where there is a genuine error or discrepancy we have tended not to penalise people.

Area aid is one of the most difficult schemes no matter what case one puts forward.

Mr. Malone

I accept that. The change from 2000 to 2001 is one difficult aspect and another is stocking densities. We negotiated that on Agenda 2000 as a good outcome but if auditors take the view that we do not apply the rules correctly, then we are caught on that end. We are constantly on a tightrope where we will get disallowed 2%, 5% or 10%.

There is a simple way around that. There has to be a clear understanding of how the rules will be applied from the start. It is no good going back over it half way through and deciding to interpret it in another way. This is a bugbear with some producers and will cause antipathy towards Brussels and the old system which is seen as bureaucratic, time consuming and detailed. I do not agree that there is a positive view towards it. I could cite cases where the opposite is the case and where individuals were severely penalised without conclusive evidence to prove the case.

I wanted to ask a question concerning page 250 of Vote 31. I note £2 million for the Tribunal of Inquiry into the Beef Processing Industry. From where does that £2.3 million come? It brings the cumulative total to £19.626 million.

Mr. Malone

There are still claims coming through for legal expenses in relation to the beef tribunal.

How long has it been since the report of the beef tribunal?

Mr. Malone

A long time.

What sort of legal expenses are coming through at this stage?

Mr. Malone

All this is coming through the Taxing Master. We are simply the people responsible for meeting the expenditure. These are claims that have been made for representation at the beef tribunal. As far as I know, the beef tribunal finished in 1994 but, for whatever reason, a lot of these claims had not been finalised. They are handled by the Taxing Master and when that process is completed, payment is arranged by the Department. We do not deal with this directly at all other than funding the expenditure. The total cost has been almost £20 million. I think we are at the end of the road.

So the £20 million involved was the total cost of the tribunal?

Mr. Malone

Yes. There is a whole range of legal expenses and a whole list of people who had legal representation.

Does this relate to legal expenses only or is it a total——

Mr. Malone

Legal expenses.

These are the legal costs only?

Mr. Malone

I think the vast portion of the costs would be the legal costs. It would probably cost the time of the people——

There would be administrative, accommodation, travelling and witness costs. Can you remember off the top of your head to what that brings the total?

Mr. Malone

If you added all that, it would certainly be well over £20 million. I do not think that has ever been costed. For example, we never costed the time of our people. I think the travel would probably not be that significant.

It would be no harm, Chairman, to try to achieve a figure for that overall cost.

Mr. Malone

I could do it from 1991 to 2000. It would be worthwhile.

I think the figures should be fairly readily available. The sum of £20 million is the final figure in relation to legal costs. The total overall costs cannot be less than that anyway.

On page 238, funding of £5 million was earmarked for the development of a national agricultural eventing exhibition and international show and competition centre at Punchestown and the out-turn was £1 million. Is that correct?

Mr. Malone

The explanation is that all the work was not carried out in 2000; some of it spilled over into 2001. Consequently, the expenditure that had been earmarked was not totally used.

At the bottom of that page, a sum of £25 million was earmarked for FEOGA - the operation in relation to EU guarantee regulations - and the out-turn is £9 million. Does that relate to the last point we were talking about?

Mr. Malone

That relates to intervention. We make an assumption every year with regard to intervention. It is very difficult to speculate. The use of intervention in the year 2000 was less than——

On page 239, there is a reference to the agri-environment programme. I presume that is REPS.

Mr. Malone

Yes.

The estimated provision was £206.5 million and the out-turn was £162.2 million.

Mr. Malone

The explanation there is that we were going from the old scheme to the new scheme. The new scheme was slower starting up than had been originally anticipated. There was a slower start to the new scheme and, consequently, there was a saving.

Why did we change from the old scheme?

Mr. Malone

These schemes are funded by the European Union; they are part of the national programme. The original scheme was a five year scheme so we had no choice but to negotiate a new scheme.

At the bottom of that page, it states the surplus to be surrendered is £37 million. That is a lot of money to be surrendered.

Mr. Malone

It is, but if you look at it in the context of the overall expenditure, the main components of it would be the rural environmental protection scheme, which is an expensive scheme that uses up to £200 million. It is a demand-led scheme and the out-turn was lower than anticipated for the reasons outlined. The other big area was intervention. We had a provision and, thankfully, we did not have to make heavy use of intervention. The funding under these headings was not expended.

In relation to value for money, is the REP scheme a bureaucratically-led scheme or is that my imagination?

You may put the question, but I am anxious to conclude the Vote.

Mr. Malone

It is a Brussels-funded scheme for a start. The levels of expenditure are very significant. I think a level of bureaucracy is inevitable in regard to that scheme. Most of the work falls on planners - either Teagasc planners or individual planners. The fact that there is between 40,000 and 50,000 farmers in the scheme would indicate that it is reasonably successful.

I agree and I would be supportive of the scheme. I worry when I hear regulations appertaining to the precise number of feet from the hedge and the ditch that the scheme is supposed to operate from and within. I worry about things like that because that is the kind of detail that is a real pitfall for people.

Mr. Malone

These are the rules that are set down.

Were the rules set down by Brussels or were they set down in conjunction with the Department following discussions?

Mr. Malone

The rules are set down——

And agreed between the two parties?

Mr. Malone

No. The rules apply across the European Union.

Who negotiates them?

Mr. Malone

Officials from the Department go to working groups in Brussels. Those groups are chaired by the Commission and we would have a fair input. There is a part of it that would worry me. If there was a disallowance - if the Commission was not satisfied - it would either take 2%, 5% or 10% of the figure.

I wish to come back to that after the Vote if I may, Chairman. At some stage in the future I would like a greater input into the way that schemes are negotiated between the respective bodies of civil servants in Brussels, both theirs and ours. I am not speaking specifically about your Department but about all Departments. One of the things we have come to recognise in another committee is that parliamentarians are almost totally unaware of the systems that have been devised behind closed doors and eventually agreed between two groups of civil servants. Sometimes the operability of some of the schemes stretches one's imagination greatly. I would be strongly of the opinion that in discussions of that nature member states should have a greater input. The application of rules that cannot be unravelled by people who are considered bureaucrats is a dangerous thing from the point of view of EU membership and reaction to European systems generally.

Mr. Malone

I do not disagree with what Deputy Durkan said. The broad format is negotiated in the Council of Ministers. Second, there is consultation with the European Parliament and, third, our approach is to have the rules as simple and clear as possible. I assure you that we certainly do not go out to negotiate——

There was no consultation with the national parliament. There was consultation with the European Parliament and consultation with the Council, but none with the national parliament. We are changing that, Chairman.

We will wait until next time to talk about how you are progressing with the three pillars. We note Vote 31 and paragraphs 27 and 28.

The witness withdrew.

The agenda for the next meeting on Tuesday, 4 December, is the 2000 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts for the Office of the Revenue Commissioners - Vote 9.

The committee adjourned at 4.30 p.m. until2 p.m. on Tuesday, 4 December 2001.
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