COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 22 Jan 2004

Environmental Protection Agency — 2002 Accounts.

Dr. Mary Kelly (Director General, Environmental Protection Agency) called and examined.

Chairman

I welcome everybody to the committee. Witnesses should be aware that they do not enjoy absolute privilege. As and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997 granted certain rights to persons who are identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. These rights include the right to give evidence, produce or send documents to the committee, appear before the committee either in person or through a representative, make a written and oral submission, request the committee to direct the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents and the right to cross-examine witnesses. For the most part, these rights can be exercised only with the consent of the committee. Persons invited before the committee are made aware of these rights and any person identified in the course of proceedings who is not present may have to be made aware of them and provided with the transcript of the relevant part of the committee's proceedings if the committee considers it appropriate in the interests of justice.

Notwithstanding this provision in legislation, I should remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provisions that within Standing Order 156 the committee should also refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

I congratulate Dr. Mary Kelly on her appointment as director general of the Environmental Protection Agency and I extend my sympathy for the untimely demise of your predecessor, Mr. McCumiskey. I ask you to introduce your officials.

Dr. Mary Kelly

I am Mary Kelly and am director general of the Environmental Protection Agency. I am accompanied by the deputy director general, Mr. Declan Burns, who is also the director of the office of communications and corporate services within the agency. I am also accompanied by Dr. Padraic Larkin, director of licensing and guidance, Mr. Gerry Carty, director of the office of environmental enforcement and Mr. Dan Harney, financial officer.

Chairman

Thank you Dr. Kelly. I also welcome the officials from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I am Geraldine Tallon and am assistant secretary in the environmental policy division of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. The division has overall responsibility for the Environmental Protection Agency within the Department.

Mr. Maurice Coughlan

I am Maurice Coughlan and am the principal officer in the environmental policy section in the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. The section deals with overall responsibility for the Environmental Protection Agency.

Chairman

I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to introduce the Environmental Protection Agency accounts for 2002.

Mr. John Purcell

This will be a short presentation because the audit of the 2002 accounts of the Environmental Protection Agency was undertaken with satisfactory results. The audit report reflects this.

However, members of the committee will note that there is a technical qualification in the report arising from the agency not obtaining an actuarial valuation of its superannuation liabilities as required by financial reporting standard No. 17. That is a transitional measure to ultimately recognising the cost of providing superannuation benefits in the accounting periods in which they are earned by employees. The position is set out in note 19 to the accounts on page 12. As I stated before to the committee, meeting the requirements of FRS No. 17 has caused difficulties for a number of State sponsored bodies because of the pay-as-you-go nature of the superannuation schemes which are funded by the State as part of the annual provisions.

The accounts themselves are straightforward. At the end of 2002, the agency was in more or less a break-even position having used its accumulated surplus to meet the deficit arising in 2002.

Chairman

Thank you, Mr. Purcell. I call on Dr. Kelly.

Dr. Kelly

We note the FRS No. 17 statement from the Comptroller and Auditor General. In common with many other State bodies, the agency has not been in a position to comply as we have discussed before. We are seeking guidance on this matter from the sponsoring Department as to how we should proceed to resolve the issue.

I have prepared an opening statement which I have circulated. I will read it into the record. The Environmental Protection Agency was established in 1993 under the Environmental Protection Agency Act 1992. The agency is an independent public body and its sponsor in Government is the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. It was assigned a wide range of powers under the 1992 Act. These powers have been widened and strengthened under other statutory instruments and legislation, including the Waste Management Act 1996 and the Protection of the Environment Act 2003.

The agency's headquarters is located in Wexford. It has a staff of 251, and operates five regional inspectorates located in Dublin, Cork, Kilkenny, Castlebar and Monaghan and four local offices in Letterkenny, Athlone, Limerick and Mallow. It is managed by a full-time executive board consisting of a director general and four directors. The executive board is appointed by the Government following detailed procedures laid down in the 1992 Act. The agency is assisted by an advisory committee of 12 members appointed by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. Those members are mainly nominated by organisations with an interest in environmental and developmental matters.

The year 2002 was a busy one for the Environmental Protection Agency with environmental issues climbing steadily higher on the national and international agendas. I was appointed as director general of the agency, taking up office at the end of May 2002. Sadly, it marked the untimely death of Mr. Bill McCumiskey, who had been director general since the establishment of the agency in 1993 until his retirement in April 2002. Bill's many achievements will be remembered by all who worked with him. During 2002, work continued on the established programmes in the Environmental Protection Agency and details of the activities covered in each division are contained in the main body of the annual report, which I understand has been circulated to members.

On the regulatory front, integrated pollution control licences continued to be processed, with 39 licences issued in 2002 bringing to 561 the number of industrial sites licensed by the end of the year. That had increased to 603 by the end of 2003. Environmental Protection Agency staff carried out 1096 monitoring visits and 597 inspections during 2002 as well as completing 126 full audits, representing a twofold increase on the preceding year. Eight companies were successfully prosecuted through the courts in 2002 for non-compliance with various licence conditions.

The agency takes enforcement of its licences seriously. In general, companies that are notified of non-compliance with their licences take effective measures to correct the situation. Inevitably, however, a number of cases result in more serious action being taken by the agency.

The agency issued 30 waste management licences and 28 draft licences in 2002, bringing to 129 the number of waste facilities licensed at the end of that year. Although there have been very noticeable improvements in the management of waste facilities, much progress is needed for some problematic sites. While 61 sites registered no complaints in 2002, seven sites accounted for 62% of all complaints we received. These sites are the focus of the agency's attention.

In line with Government policy, the number of landfill sites in operation has fallen from 126 in 1998 to 92 in 2002. A more balanced waste management infrastructure is beginning to take shape with more transfer stations and composting facilities coming on stream. Data collected for the national waste database indicates that waste generation continues to rise in line with gross domestic product and that recycling rates, while also on the increase, cannot keep pace. Significant prevention measures along with increased recycling capacity will be required in the future. Work is ongoing on a national waste prevention plan, including a core prevention team to be based in the agency.

During 2002 we completed work on the development of a management system for the identification and assessment of local authorities' performance in their statutory environmental protection functions. The system will be rolled out to all local authorities in the near future and will form one part of the new activities of the Office of Environmental Enforcement.

A range of reports based on monitoring programmes was produced in 2002, putting accurate data about the quality of Ireland's environment into the public domain. Such data is used to assess trends and identify pressures on the environment. It is essential to policy makers, both in developing policy and in assessing policies already in place. The agency continues to place a high priority on the collection, assessment and publication of this data.

Building on the success of the first national environmental indicators report published in 1999, the agency published a second environmental indicators report in 2002. The report was published in an easy to use format for ease of access for the general public in particular. It uses 50 key indicators to evaluate Ireland's progress in meeting the environmental challenges we identified in the state of the environment millennium report and international environmental obligations. The indicators also help to assess the effects of the main strategic economic sectors on the environment.

It is clear that while the Irish environment remains generally of a high standard, there are many pressures on it as a result of rapid economic growth, in particular in the transport and energy sectors. Increased urbanisation, increases in population, rural housing developments, changing agricultural practices and increased waste generation also add significantly to the pressures on the environment. The publication by the Government in 2002 of the national spatial strategy is to be welcomed, and we look forward to its full implementation.

Climate change resulting from greenhouse gas emissions is one of the main global environmental concerns. The EPA continued its work in 2002 on the annual reporting of greenhouse gas emissions to the European Commission and to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change. Ireland faces a severe challenge in meeting the significant reductions in emissions required, as the commitment period for the Kyoto Protocol gets nearer. Ireland's greenhouse gas emissions in 2001 were running at 31% above 1990 levels compared to a 13% increase allowed under the terms of the Kyoto Protocol. Energy production and transport are the areas where emissions growth is highest. The EPA's inventories will be key to determining whether the strategies adopted to meet these challenges are succeeding.

Since then, the EU has adopted a directive on emissions trading as one part of its response to climate change, and the EPA has been designated by Government as the competent authority for implementation of this directive, with responsibility for drawing up a national allocation plan for allocation of carbon dioxide allowances to installations required to participate in a trading scheme.

The environmental research, technological development and innovation programme, ERTDI, continued in 2002. This programme, with a budget of €32 million over seven years, co-ordinates environmental research in Ireland. It is funded under the National Development Plan 2000-2006 and is administered by the Environmental Protection Agency. Total grant commitments to the end of 2002 came to €23.97 million. The EPA sees this programme as a key strategic element of environmental protection that also provides accurate data to policy makers in areas where little research has been conducted in the past. Reports from the research projects are beginning to come through and valuable information is being obtained in areas as diverse as markets for recyclables to the impacts of climate change. The EPA is particularly happy to be involved in this programme and looks forward to its continuation into the future.

A strategic review of the agency was undertaken in September 2002 and four main pillars of a new strategy had been identified at year-end. Those were a restatement of the mission, vision and values of the agency; a management and communications process map designed to improve communications and management processes; a strategic framework document to act as a blueprint for action; and a revised structure for the organisation.

Consultation with staff throughout the organisation had commenced in 2002 and changes were implemented in 2003. The changes reflect a greater focus on enforcement, with the establishment of an Office of Environmental Enforcement within the agency dedicated to enforcement activities. Both EPA licences and public authorities' performance on environmental issues are targeted. Implementation of the four pillars of our new programme will ensure the agency is in a better position to face the many challenges of environmental protection.

The Environmental Protection Agency has just celebrated ten years in existence, a decade in which it has had significant achievements and brought about real change. The environment is now high on the agenda of ordinary people. There is a much better understanding of environmental issues, pressures and the need for action. People, by and large, accept that changes need to be made. Some will be embraced without question, such as the ban on plastic bags. Other changes may be accepted in principle but are opposed when they directly impact on our lifestyle, for example, the way we deal with waste and transport.

It is the agency's aim to continue to provide clear, factual information about the environment for decision makers and to encourage public understanding of the environmental issues facing the country. I believe the agency has been influential in improving people's interest and respect for the environment. We look forward to the next decade and to dealing with the significant environmental challenges ahead.

Chairman

Thank you, Dr. Kelly. Do we have permission to publish the report?

Dr. Kelly

Indeed.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

I congratulate Dr. Kelly. It must have been interesting for her to transfer from a position where she is protecting industry to one where she is protecting the environment. I wish her well and I know she does an excellent job.

The Comptroller and Auditor General said there was no actuarial valuation for superannuation costs and that there was a deficiency in terms of funding to meet the costs. First, what is the shortfall? Second, how does the agency propose to rectify that ongoing situation? Third, is there a possibility that it could jeopardise the operation of the EPA in the future given the significant amount of funds I suspect will be involved in making good that deficiency?

Dr. Kelly

To comply with the requirements of FRS No. 17 the agency would have to account for the following: we have 250 current staff; we have about 50 pensioners from An Foras Forbartha; 15 pensioners of the agency; 50 former agency staff; and about 500 former AFF employees who may have pension entitlements against the agency. As far as I understand, we have not quantified a figure on it but it would put us into a significant deficit if we went through with it.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

Has Dr. Kelly any idea what would be the likely fallout from it? Would she have a ballpark figure?

Dr. Kelly

No. We do not have any quantification for it.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

Will Dr. Kelly provide that information to the committee?

Dr. Kelly

We will come back to Deputy O'Keeffe on that.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

Apart from that, there is not a lot in the account itself. On the question of climate changes, there is a cloud over a place called Ringaskiddy. Could we lift that cloud in some way this morning because a number of interesting facets arise from what is happening there? Dr. Kelly said that under the Kyoto Protocol we were allowed a 13% increase in emissions but that it is now running at 31%. In terms of due processes being put in place that will emit fairly sizeable levels of carbon dioxide, how will the agency deal with such a scenario, given that we are already 31% over the level?

Planning permission has been granted for a plant in Ringaskiddy, which will significantly increase the levels of carbon dioxide emissions. If we are over our permitted levels and if we cannot reach the targeted levels, we will be penalised financially. Will any new start-up enterprise be penalised for the production of carbon dioxide above the levels which will cause major anxiety among members of the public? When we consider that at least four national incinerators may be put in place here, has the agency examined the impact that will have on our overall emission levels? How does it propose to deal with it?

Dr. Kelly

The Deputy raised two major issues. I will deal first with the climate change part of the equation. Dealing with the effects of climate change and our being above the Kyoto protocol limits will be a major challenge for us. The Deputy rightly put his finger on the fact that new expansions, industries and enterprises will produce carbon dioxide, but there is also the matter of the level produced by existing industries. There is a national climate change strategy in place since 2000 and there is also an EU emissions trading directive we are currently administering. All industries, existing and new, will face a tightening of the amount of carbon dioxide they will be allowed emit. Ultimately, we have to get back in line with the emission levels allowed under the Kyoto protocol. We are currently in the process of devising a national allocation plan which will allocate a cap on carbon dioxide emissions to all those industries required, under the directive, to be a part of the emissions trading scheme. Incineration is not a part of that directive, therefore, the emissions trading aspect will not take in the incineration part of the equation.

The policy on this area is outside my control, but I understand that other measures such as carbon taxation will be used in respect of other industries and people engaged in this area who do not come into the emissions trading part of the regime. There will be different measures used to control the level of carbon dioxide emissions and taxation is likely to be imposed on those companies and enterprises which do not take part in the emissions trading scheme.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

In the case of a new enterprise facilitating incineration which does not come within the remit of this directive, is Dr. Kelly saying that a special allocation will apply in respect of the amount of carbon dioxide such an enterprise can emit? Is she telling us that the emissions will be set at the lowest levels possible? Is she suggesting that such enterprises will be penalised from day one for producing carbon dioxide, which will increase our percentage of emissions even further, because of the provisions in the protocol? This is an extremely serious and fundamental issue.

Dr. Kelly

Given that the proposed incinerator is a waste to energy plant, it is considered to be carbon neutral and is not included in the emissions trading directive.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

Having spoken to some scientists this morning, my understanding is that it will be anything but carbon neutral. Perhaps Dr. Kelly could make a report available to the committee to prove that point, as it is an extremely important one.

Dr. Kelly

Yes, we can do that.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

Has the EPA carried out an evaluation of the long-term effects of low levels of dioxin emissions produced by enterprises on the general populace?

Dr. Kelly

We have carried out two types of studies on dioxins. In one study we measured the amounts of dioxins in the Irish environment. We did two surveys on that. We found that the quantities of dioxins in the Irish environment are extremely low, very low compared to European standards and low by any standard. Dioxins are ubiquitous in the environment in that they are everywhere in the world at this stage.

The Deputy will be aware that, currently, a number of incinerators are operating in Ireland, some 11 incinerators in seven locations. In conducting our surveys we concentrated on areas that might be potential hotspots for dioxins, in other words, around the areas where those incinerators are located. We found no significant difference between dioxin levels in those areas and dioxin levels in the rest of the country.

In the second study we funded research into an inventory of dioxin emissions in 2000 and projected forward to 2010, which we published. We again found there are very low levels of dioxins, if one compares those levels with any standard internationally. We also found that the vast majority of dioxins — some 75% in 2000 — are produced from uncontrolled burning of waste as opposed to anything else. The research conducted examined the position in 2010 if all of the regional waste management plans were put in place and the incinerators proposed in those plans were working at full capacity. If all those incinerators were working, including the ones currently operating, they would account for 2% of our dioxin levels overall. Uncontrolled burning of waste is still the single largest factor. It will increase to 84% under those projections.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

What does Dr. Kelly mean by uncontrolled burning of waste?

Dr. Kelly

I mean all kinds of burning, burning of waste in the back garden, fires, in effect any burning that is not controlled.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

It will increase to 84%.

Dr. Kelly

That is 84% of all dioxins in Ireland, but that percentage must be viewed against the background of our having very low levels of dioxins.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

Do we know what are the effects of low dioxin levels and is there any evidence in that regard?

Dr. Kelly

The WHO sets international standards for safe or acceptable levels of dioxins and Ireland is well below the acceptable levels set for dioxins. We have to go on the levels the WHO set below which there is no significant impact on health.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

From the report, it seems that odours are the main problem in regard to licensing. It has been suggested there are major difficulties in terms of odours at weekends. If one needs to call out the EPA at weekends, one would have a difficulty, as the call-out rate is particularly bad. I would like Dr. Kelly to comment on that.

Dr. Kelly

I am very surprised to hear that. We have an emergency number and a call-out number. We have a procedure whereby if somebody calls at the weekend or out of office hours, that call is taken and diverted to the appropriate person. I have not had any reports of anybody not responding to a call. We log all calls and complaints. I will certainly check that matter when I get back to the office and make sure that is not the case, but if it were, I would be very concerned.

Deputy B. O’Keeffe

A complaint was raised about the emergency procedures.

Chairman

With regard to the 1996 Waste Management Act, what is the current position on the granting of a licence for the toxic waste facility at Ringaskiddy?

Dr. Kelly

There is an application for a waste licence before us and it is going through the normal procedure of being considered by our technical experts.

Chairman

On item 2, it is stated that compliance with the licence conditions is met through inspections and audits carried out by EPA inspectors and assessment of reports received from licensees. Do you consider that those two procedures are adequate to ensure there is full compliance?

Dr. Kelly

Yes, I feel they are adequate. The licensee in every case, irrespective of the facility, has to carry out a whole range of monitoring, much of it continuous monitoring and most of it automated. Therefore, it is recorded for us to see when we go to audit. We also take the view on a risk-based analysis of visiting all our licensees and taking independent samples. We check that they are doing it right but we also take our own samples for measurement. We compare the answers we get from both and we are satisfied with the procedure.

Chairman

In light of the health concerns about Ringaskiddy, what is your preliminary opinion of the granting by An Bord Pleanála of a licence for the toxic waste facility?

Dr. Kelly

I do not want to avoid the question but I cannot comment as it has not come before the board of the agency. It would not be appropriate for me to comment.

Chairman

I note that failure to comply with conditions of licensing means you can issue a notice of non-compliance at District Court level requiring the licensee to rectify the problem. I am surprised that the level of prosecutions is minimal and that these matters are not processed at Circuit Court level, where judges have authority to strike higher fines. I am disappointed that the level of money received through fines is small.

Dr. Kelly

Under the Environmental Protection Agency Act and the Waste Management Act, the agency has no discretion in this. We can either go to the District Court or we can refer a more serious matter under criminal proceedings to the DPP. We have no authority to go to any court other than the District Court and the legislation sets out what the District Court can hand out in fines.

Chairman

Is there not a problem here? There is illegal dumping in Carlow and Wicklow and waste is being transferred to Northern Ireland. In recent months there has been much disquiet expressed about illegal dumping in several counties. Is the law deficient if prosecutions are confined to the District Court?

Dr. Kelly

It might appear to be but in terms of illegal dumping, particularly in Wicklow though this will probably also apply in other areas, the Garda have also taken criminal cases. When a case is serious there are other ways to deal with it. The District Court is satisfactory for most of the cases with which we deal. However, there have been cases where a District Court judge has decided he or she does not have jurisdiction and has moved the case to a higher court. If we feel the case is one involving criminal activity we can call in the Garda and have it investigated in that way, with a criminal prosecution being brought. We are reasonably happy with that. Also, while the fines may seem relatively small, they are standard District Court fines and the costs to the companies of complying, and righting what they have done, are also part of the equation. In general the companies pay out quite a lot in remedying what they have done and they usually have to pay our costs also. From the point of view of the EPA, apart from the fine, our main objective is environmental protection, that is, to get the company to rectify the environmental pollution.

Chairman

It is in the public domain that in terms of legal prosecutions, you have collected only €150,000 in fines, which seems a small sum. Given the public perception of the scale of abuse, it would be expected that remedial work would be done, while compliance and staff costs must be high. Nevertheless, I am disappointed with the level of abuse by certain operators who are involved in illegal dumping. The fines imposed should be far heavier.

Dr. Kelly

If dumping is illegal the DPP generally takes criminal cases.

Chairman

I appreciate what you are saying but your accounts to date do not indicate that from the level of prosecutions.

Dr. Kelly

The fines would not come to us.

Chairman

I refer to the level of prosecutions. Is it not very small?

Dr. Kelly

It is relatively small but we prosecute every case that is serious. We have a whole range of enforcement options open to us, starting with a notice requiring those concerned to change their behaviour and stop polluting. If the pollution is serious we will continue to prosecute but if they rectify it then in some cases it is not necessary to go all the way to the courts.

Chairman

Is the decision by An Bord Pleanála to grant permission for the toxic waste facility in Cork a factor in your issuing a licence?

Dr. Kelly

The planning process——

Chairman

Does that influence your decision?

Dr. Kelly

The planning process and the licensing process are two parallel decisions. No, it does not.

Chairman

It does not.

Dr. Kelly

They could happen in reverse order. In some cases an integrated pollution control licence could be issued before a planning decision or a planning decision could be issued before an IPC licence. They are parallel. We will consider the environmental aspects; in this case An Bord Pleanála was precluded from doing so.

Chairman

So there is no guarantee a licence will be issued?

Dr. Kelly

There is no guarantee. Every case is looked at——

Chairman

So at this point in time the developer should not be of the opinion that he is guaranteed a licence.

Dr. Kelly

He should not be.

Deputy Noonan

I thank Dr. Kelly for her initial statement. Not many issues arise today on the financial side but the agency collected over €5.6 million from licensing activities in 2002. How are those licensing fees structured?

Dr. Kelly

There are two elements. There is a licensing fee for the licence and an ongoing monitoring fee. The licensing fee is set out by the Government in regulations and our own charge is then set out on the basis of the number of visits and the amount of monitoring and testing we must carry out.

Deputy Noonan

Does the licence fee vary depending on the size of the activity?

Dr. Kelly

Very significantly. For a small activity with little risk to the environment it would be a relatively low fee and for activity on a large scale, with high risks to the environment necessitating more frequent visits and tests, the fee can be very substantial.

Deputy Noonan

I am referring to the initial licensing fee.

Dr. Kelly

Again, those are graded. It depends on the site.

Deputy Noonan

Is the full economic cost charged for the ongoing monitoring and enforcement?

Dr. Kelly

We have a daily rate based on our inspectors, for whom we have a charge-out fee, so we do, yes.

Deputy Noonan

Is that based on full economic costs on a break-even basis or is a profit built in?

Dr. Kelly

Yes, it takes overheads into account and it breaks even.

Deputy Noonan

On the other side, what progress has been made in licensing agricultural activities such as large piggeries, intensive farming and so on?

Dr. Kelly

Currently intensive piggeries and poultry establishments come to us from the agricultural side, as the Deputy will know. Progress there is a little slower than we would like but we have licensed quite a number of piggeries to date. I can get the committee the exact figure. We are having some difficulty with the agricultural sector in terms of land spreading of the slurry that arises from these intensive piggeries and we have a number of court cases in which we are trying to establish what we can and cannot do. Our position is that our purpose is to protect the environment and in particular vulnerable ground water, so we have very stringent conditions in licences that we issue on how, where and when slurry may be spread.

Deputy Noonan

Are there still many piggeries and intensive poultry production units operating without licences?

Dr. Kelly

Some are still outstanding but the figure at issue is small. I can get the figures, but I do not have them off the top of my head. We have successfully prosecuted a number of piggeries for operating without a licence and the owners have had to apply to us for licences. We are working our way through it, but it is proving to be a little more difficult than the industrial sector.

Deputy Noonan

Will Dr. Kelly speak further about the conditions imposed on the spreading of slurry.

Dr. Kelly

I can. We require all the intensive piggeries to have a 26 weeks sewerage facility. They need to have on-site storage for 26 weeks of slurry output. We have limits on the spreading of slurry in the wetter part of the year — December, January and February. We also require nutrient management plans from the piggeries which means they have to identify land banks where the slurry can be spread. They have to satisfy us that pollution will not result in pollution in the areas where they propose to spread the slurry. This can happen in a number of ways which I will not go into.

We then examine the proposals we get from the licensee in the normal way of processing a licence. We sometimes exclude areas where we have not been given enough information or where we feel that there is too much of a threat to water or to the environment from spreading slurry. We agree a land bank where the slurry may be spread, the times at which it may be spread and the weather conditions under which it may be spread.

Deputy Noonan

There is a view in many parts of the country that the land bank is a bit of a fiction, that is put together for licensing purposes by neighbours chipping in and agreeing that slurry will be spread at certain times on their land. Sometimes relations some distance from the producer put land into the land bank when, in fact, the slurry is spread in large quantities nearer to home. The practice which I describe appears to be the rule rather than the exception. Are there monitoring systems in place to pick up on that?

Dr. Kelly

The Deputy has identified a risk that exists. We carry out random checks on our licensees. We do not have the ability to check licensees every day or every time they spread. There is a risk that this sort of thing can happen and we are aware of it.

Deputy Noonan

If a well in a certain area is polluted and there is a suspicion that the pollution was caused by the spreading of slurry, is the case followed up?

Dr. Kelly

Yes, if we receive a complaint. We process every complaint that comes in. If there is a complaint about the incorrect spreading of slurry we follow it up.

Deputy Noonan

Are conditions in place to deal with slurry odour?

Dr. Kelly

Yes. We have employed Dutch consultants to assist in drawing up a protocol on odour. We already have a guideline in regard to it. We look at the distance from houses and other such factors. We generally require every intensive piggery to produce an odour management plan, to do odour patrols and to report to us on a regular basis on the odour.

It is evident from our report that complaints about odour are the biggest proportion of the complaints we receive, although it has to be said that they are not all about pig slurry. We follow up all these complaints in so far as we can. We have required intensive piggeries to stop spreading in places if they are causing a nuisance from the point of view of odour.

Deputy Noonan

Has the issue of additives to slurry to reduce odour been considered?

Dr. Kelly

Yes. We have required it in a number of licences. We also have a condition in our licence whereby we can require a farmer to reduce the number of livestock if problems persist. That is contested but it is a condition in the licence that we can do it.

Deputy Noonan

Is the Environmental Protection Agency satisfied with its current legislative base or is it seeking amending legislation?

Dr. Kelly

We are relatively happy with it at the moment. It was affected last year by the amendment to the Protection of the Environment Act. We were given significant new powers under that. Some aspects of it were amended more in line with what we wanted through the experience of using the legislation over the previous nine or ten years. We are relatively happy with it.

Deputy Noonan

What input is there into policy that affects the work of the agency?

Dr. Kelly

I am not sure I understand the question.

Deputy Noonan

If we take as an example the decision in Ringaskiddy from An Bord Pleanála. As I understand it, the inspector recommended that the application be rejected. According to media reports of the decision, An Bord Pleanála based its decision to grant permission on the fact that it was in line with national policy. If national policy is to override the report by an inspector from An Bord Pleanála, environmental implications arise from that. While the EPA's mission statement has a wide remit, there is no specific remit to advise on policy.

Dr. Kelly

I gave a brief summary of our remit but it is actually wider than that. We do have a remit in terms of advice to Government. We perform that much of the time by producing reports which give policy advice to Government. For example, our national waste database sets out the EPA's opinion on which direction policy should take. As far as I know, the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government takes EPA advice seriously. We monitor and examine how various policies are working and may give recommendations on where we should be going. The Department is in charge of producing the policy which we have to implement afterwards but there is a feedback mechanism into that policy from our point of view.

The main aspect of the legislation from our point of view is that we shall not licence any activity which will cause significant environmental pollution. That is the overriding factor in terms of our decisions about licensing any activity as the legislation specifically precludes us from doing that.

Deputy Noonan

When the Government is considering a change of policy that would affect the environment, is the EPA on the list when the memorandum for Government does the tour of Departments?

Dr. Kelly

We do not see Government memoranda.

Deputy Noonan

The EPA does not make submissions on policy at that level.

Dr. Kelly

Not at that level. We would have already made our submissions at that stage. We liaise closely with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government in terms of our working relationship but we do not see memoranda for Government.

Deputy Noonan

Let us take a specific example. The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has signalled that a less strict regime will apply to once-off rural housing. This is another controversial policy that might have consequences for the purity of water in certain parts of the country at least and in which the EPA would have a legitimate interest. If changes are made by way of primary legislation or ministerial regulation, will the EPA just be at the receiving end or can it make an input, directly or indirectly, through the Department when the policy change is being considered?

Chairman

Questions cannot be asked about the merits or objectives of policy.

Deputy Noonan

It is not a policy question. It is a procedural question. I am asking what the procedure is.

Chairman

The Deputy cannot question witnesses about the merits or objectives of policy.

Dr. Kelly

I will not go into that. We have a number of ways of inputting. One of the major ways is our state of the environment report which deals with all those big issues. Rural housing is generally a matter for the planners. There are a number of environmental issues associated with rural housing about which we have a legitimate concern. Some of those relate to ground water pollution, the use of transport, sustainable development, infrastructure and the destruction of the landscape. The environmental issues associated with rural housing are concerns. In general, however, the rural housing issue is a matter for the planners. Our state of the environment report is a snapshot of where Ireland is at present, but it also gives us an opportunity to make pointers to the Government or to anyone else about our concerns if policy goes a particular way. That is the type of influence we can have.

Deputy Noonan

Has the Environmental Protection Agency a formal structure in its relationship with local authorities? I understand that, when a project is proposed, the licensing procedure through the EPA and the planning procedure through the local authority run parallel. They are two separate parallel decisions. Does the Environmental Protection Agency have a formal relationship with local authorities to discuss the overall impact of a proposal in which the agency and a local authority are involved?

Dr. Kelly

We do not have a formal relationship in the sense that a particular project would be discussed between us and a local authority, if that is what the Deputy is asking. We have more of a relationship in that respect with An Bord Pleanála because sometimes we are required to consult it about various parts of a project.

Deputy Noonan

Let us suppose developers sought planning permission for a new factory along the Shannon in my constituency of Limerick. Would there be an exchange of correspondence between Limerick County Council and the Environmental Protection Agency or are they separate sealed processes without inter-relationships?

Dr. Kelly

We are statutory consultees for the environmental impact statement. We would receive the EIS for comment from the planning authority. We would comment on that. We produce the guidance for the environmental impact statement. We examine it to see if it has conformed with that.

Deputy Fleming

It is good to have the opportunity to speak to the representatives of the Environmental Protection Agency. As regards Deputy Noonan's question about monitoring charges and if they are self-financing, which Dr. Kelly indicated they are, if the waste management area is operated under the polluter pays principle, the EPA should not be in receipt of an Oireachtas grant of €17 million. The people with whom the agency is dealing should fully fund it. Two thirds of the money comes from an Oireachtas grant. I presume two thirds of the agency's costs and overheads are paid directly by the taxpayer and not by those to whom it issues a licence or those who it charges, inspects or audits. I know the EPA also carries out research.

Should the people who seek pollution control and waste management licences fund the bulk of the agency's activities? These fees only fund a maximum of one third of the agency's activities. The agency does not appear to be charging those people the full cost because two thirds of its costs are subvented by the Exchequer.

Dr. Kelly

We have a wider brief than licensing and control. I do not envisage a time when the industrial and waste sectors will completely fund the work of the agency. Much of the work we do is monitoring, reporting and testing the ambient environment and giving advice. We give a lot of advice to local authorities and to others. We also deal with members of the public in terms of complaints, some of which are valid and some of which are not. We can spend much time investigating on behalf of the public. It is in the public interest that it is done. I do not see a time when 100% of our costs will come from the licensees.

Deputy Fleming

Perhaps a time will come when a greater proportion of it might be funded directly by the people for whom the agency carries out its activities. I know the work it does will always be good and should be funded by the Oireachtas. Perhaps more funding could come directly from the people with whom the agency deals.

The EPA's annual report states that, in 2002, a total of three licensees were prosecuted for non-compliance with the conditions of their waste licences. Fines totalling €150,000 were awarded to the EPA as a result of prosecutions taken in the District Court. Dr. Kelly said the fines do not go to the EPA. Where do the fines go?

Dr. Kelly

The fines in criminal cases do not come to us.

Deputy Fleming

Where do they go?

Dr. Kelly

When the Director of Public Prosecutions prosecutes, we do not get the money.

Deputy Fleming

I presume the €150,000 in fines in cases taken by the agency for breaches of waste licences went to the EPA.

Dr. Kelly

Yes.

Deputy Fleming

I wanted to clarify that. Dr. Kelly was referring to one category of prosecutions.

Dr. Kelly

Criminal prosecutions.

Deputy Fleming

The EPA does not benefit from its work in criminal prosecutions, but it does in these cases. Does the EPA have bad debts from any of the organisations or 560 companies and, if so, where are they reflected in the accounts?

Dr. Kelly

Occasionally they arise. It is normally where a company is closing down and cannot pay. We deal with it in the normal way. It is not a big issue for us.

Deputy Fleming

It is not significant.

Dr. Kelly

No.

Deputy Fleming

Regarding local authorities and waste licences, it would be helpful if the report showed the number of waste licensing facilities and the breakdown between local authority and private sector facilities. Was any local authority taken to court during the year? How does the EPA deal with local authorities? The report and the introductory statement refers to the eight companies which the EPA took to court. What happens to local authorities?

Dr. Kelly

We issue a large number of reports and administer the national waste database. The information the Deputy seeks about who owns what, which ones are run by local authorities and the spectrum of the waste management infrastructure is detailed in that. It is about 50:50 for landfill at present. There were approximately 50 local authority owned sites and 47 or 49 privately owned in 2003. The figures are slightly different for 2002.

Deputy Fleming

Is there a significant difference in standard in the operation of the two?

Dr. Kelly

Historically there would have been a difference. When we started licensing waste management activities, we inherited a fairly dire infrastructure which the local authorities were largely in control of at that time. The licences started to go out in 1998. Since then there has been a huge sea change in the management of waste and all the facilities. That has been mostly to do with us licensing them, requiring them to run them properly, to line them and to deal with the leachate, landfill gas, etc. At that time the private sector, particularly some big companies within it, started to move into the provision of waste infrastructure. They were looking at greenfield sites where they were developing a new landfill from scratch.

There is a vast difference between a local authority or private company developing a new landfill and the legacy of the old ones. We require local authorities to bring their old sites up to standard and will not license them until they do so which takes some time. More work needs to be done there. We have worked with local authorities since 1998 to make them understand that they have to do the work and pay for it which is beginning to happen now. We would not be in a position to prosecute for non-compliance with breach of condition until the licences were issued. We have prosecuted approximately five local authorities for breach of their licence conditions and have been successful in all cases in terms of the breaches.

Deputy Fleming

I am more concerned about the ones that have not been licensed and this concern would be in the context of the black economy. Dr. Kelly mentioned in passing that the EPA would not license a landfill or waste management facility unless it was up to the standard which merited the licence. Is this intended to imply that the EPA is dealing with, and aware of, landfill facilities being operated by local authorities that do not meet that standard and are unlicensed?

Dr. Kelly

No. All local authority landfills are licensed.

Deputy Fleming

To whom was Dr. Kelly referring when she made that comment?

Dr. Kelly

I was referring to a stage when they applied to us for a licence. The procedure is that they apply for a licence and, until we are sure that they are giving us a proposal with which we are satisfied for compliance, we do not licence them. That could be a two or two and a half year period. This was a historic factor to date whereby they would not have a licence but we would remain in control of the site and make them do certain things and force them to bring their standards up.

Deputy Fleming

I appreciate that. What is the name of the booklet to which Dr. Kelly referred which provides the information? When was that last published or has it been made available to the Oireachtas?

Dr. Kelly

It was called the National Waste Database and was published in July 2003. It refers to the data for 2001.

Deputy Fleming

Would it be possible to supply copies of it to this committee?

Dr. Kelly

Of course.

Deputy Fleming

Perhaps we received it with the volume of documentation.

Deputy Boyle

Maybe it was recycled.

Dr. Kelly

The Deputy may have recycled it.

Deputy Fleming

Yes maybe I did put it in the recycling bin. I assure Dr. Kelly we do have one. I compliment the EPA on asking us recently if we wanted to receive its annual report in future. Many organisations send their reports to every Deputy and they go straight from the pigeon holes to the recycling bin. In an effort to minimise waste the EPA chose not to issue them unless people wanted them. It is a small point but I compliment the EPA on that. I hope Deputies responded accordingly and that we will not receive unnecessary documentation in the future.

It is mentioned in the notes to the accounts that, in 2001, €500,000 had been advanced to the Office of Public Works for the purchase of a new site for the regional inspectors in Kilkenny. Is the EPA in that premises yet?

Dr. Kelly

No we are not in that premises yet.

Deputy Fleming

What is causing the delay?

Dr. Kelly

We have not received the funding to move in yet. Our plans are advanced.

Deputy Fleming

The EPA has paid the OPW more than €500,000 for the purchase of a site and the process is at the planning stage. Will the agency be obliged to obtain special funding or does it have the money within its capital funding to advance the construction of this development?

Dr. Kelly

We have to get it in our capital grant.

Deputy Fleming

In the previous purchase of fixed assets the OPW financed and built the construction and the EPA took over the repayments on the loan. Does the EPA propose to do something different this time?

Dr. Kelly

That was our headquarters in Wexford. We may do that for the premises in Kilkenny too. We are working through a series of alternatives at the moment.

Deputy Fleming

It has taken from 2001 to 2004 yet the EPA is nowhere closer to obtaining the premises. That seems slow. A great deal of money is involved and we have yet to see the net benefit. When does the EPA expect to be in the building?

Dr. Kelly

We are as anxious to be in it as the Deputy is for us to be there. We have premises in Kilkenny which are inadequate for the purpose. We hope to be in the new premises as soon as we can and are applying our best endeavours to complete it.

Deputy Fleming

Will it be by the end of 2004 or later?

Dr. Kelly

It will be when we get sanction from the Minister.

Deputy Fleming

Has it gone to tender yet?

Dr. Kelly

No.

Deputy Fleming

It will be 2005 at the earliest. According to the report, the EPA operates its standards to the best available technology, which is excellent, but one often hears reference in the industry to best available technology at a reasonable cost. Is the EPA or the industry moving in that direction? In a perfect world one can specify best available technology with no reference to cost but the real world does not operate that way. Does the industry operate to best available technology standard or best available technology at a reasonable cost?

Dr. Kelly

When we started licensing industry, we operated on the principle of best available technology not entailing excessive cost — BATNEEC.

Deputy Fleming

I do not know the exact phrase.

Dr. Kelly

That is it and that was the standard. The EU directive on integrated pollution prevention and control requires companies to be at best available technology by 2007. We have generally worked with companies to get them towards BAT and are satisfied that they are moving in that direction. Best available technology can change from one day to the next and it is unreasonable to expect a company to change its technology overnight. We have to work within the bounds of reason but expect companies to be at best available technology in their sector and are working towards that for 2007.

Deputy Fleming

Local authorities have a role in controlling water quality and the EPA has a section on that in its report. It is an issue that affects many in terms of pollution in rivers. Where do the responsibilities for water protection of the EPA, local authorities and fisheries boards lie? Many activities conducted by local authorities can affect water quality. Who has ultimate responsibility — the EPA or fisheries boards — for dealing with local authorities on that issue? There have been cases in recent years of significant activity by local authorities affecting water quality. Did the EPA or fisheries boards take up those issues?

Dr. Kelly

The local authority generally is responsible for water quality in rivers. We monitor the quality and report on it. If we come across a pollution incident, someone reports one to us or we become aware of one in any way, we take it up, try to investigate it at that stage and do something about it.

Deputy Fleming

Has the EPA carried out prosecutions in this area?

Dr. Kelly

No. We might prosecute some of our licensees for pollution of waters but not for general pollution.

Deputy Fleming

Emissions trading will be a major issue this year because the Minister for Finance indicated that carbon tax would be introduced from 1 January 2005.

Deputy Boyle

He did not say that in the last budget.

Deputy Fleming

He said it in the previous budget, in December 2002, to allow a sufficient lead-in time. Must the EPA pay for international consultants to advise it on emissions trading? One could not expect that knowledge to exist within the EPA or Departments because we have not dealt with it before. Does the EPA see this as a significant area of activity over the coming year and where will it seek advice?

Dr. Kelly

Yes it will be a very significant area for us over the coming years. The Government has designated the EPA as the national allocation authority. We have not been involved in this area before so we must develop expertise within the agency and have taken measures to do that. We were sanctioned for extra staff, have created a unit to deal with that specific area and that is under way, but the staff must develop expertise. Nobody in Europe has it because this is a completely new area. All environmental agencies and ministries are at the same stage and Ireland is quite well advanced.

The emissions trading has been split into two parts. The Government must decide what proportion of emissions to allocate to the sector that will trade. Our responsibility then is to take that bubble, so to speak, and divide it between the installations that will trade. We have a very short timetable before presenting a national allocation plan to the Commission in Brussels by 31 March 2004. We were given responsibility for that in the middle of last July. We took on consultants in an open tendering process and selected a consortium of Irish and London based consultants to advise us. The work is ongoing and is almost completed. The consultants will advise us and in the meantime we are building up our own team expertise.

Deputy Fleming

If I heard the figure correctly, Dr. Kelly said that 84% of dioxins are produced from uncontrolled situations. Is it not reasonable to assume that a significant proportion of the CO2 emissions in Ireland comes from uncontrolled situations?

Back garden burning is on the increase now that wheelie bin charges are so high. We had almost got rid of age-old practices but they have returned. Back garden burning takes place in every village and town. Would the witnesses comment on that? In towns in my constituency where 100 wheelie bins were left out for collection on a regular basis three years ago, now there are just 30, and that is because of the cost. It is not all due to minimisation and recycling. Something else is being done with the rubbish because of the cost. That issue must seriously concern the witnesses.

When the Committee of Public Accounts meets, I notice that we deal only with official statistics in the system. What is not recorded by the system, namely, the black economy or the world outside official statistics, is often a much greater problem but is not dealt with or acknowledged because it is not recorded in official statistics.

Dr. Kelly

The first part of the question related to carbon dioxide emissions. The vast majority does not come from backyard burning. These are two quite different issues. The vast majority of carbon dioxide, 80% of it, comes from power generating plants.

We are aware of backyard burning. It is an education issue that needs to be tackled. Over the past year or so, local authorities have employed information officers who are aware of the problem and work on it. Since people are concerned about dioxins, we would be much better off educating them to make them aware that it is their backyard burning and not other sources they think are responsible which produces most dioxins. If we want to reduce dioxins further in the environment, I agree that is where we should operate. We are slowly educating people to a better awareness of their environment and their responsibility for and impact on it. Until people understand that burning backyard waste, fly tipping or any other form of anti-social behaviour is precisely that, we will continue to endure it. It is an education issue. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is running an advertising campaign which I understand will develop into a wider education campaign.

Deputy Fleming

I want to make a point about people applying for licences and site notices to be erected under EU regulations. The situation involves Bord na Móna, a large State body. The practice may have changed as a result of last year's legislation, and Dr. Kelly may confirm it or perhaps return to me with the details.

Bord na Móna has applied for a licence in County Laois. Under the regulations — perhaps statutory regulations are the problem — the company was merely required to erect a site notice at its head office. The licence concerned a group of bogs in a number of counties. There was no legal requirement to place a notice at the specific sites for which licences were sought. Only the grid references, whatever they are — no doubt an engineer knows what a grid reference is — had to be provided at the head office making the submission.

This is a nonsensical concept. Has that regulation been changed? It is a fraud to refer to site notices and public consultations if there is no requirement even to have the site notice placed within the county. It is an absurdity, because people did not become aware of these notices until much later.

Dr. Kelly

I will come back to the Deputy on that. I know the problem. Notice must be given in the newspapers too.

Deputy Fleming

Yes. However, a national grid reference was given which nobody understood.

Dr. Kelly

I can come back to the Deputy on that.

Deputy Boyle

I will return to the climate change issue and the points raised at the beginning by Deputy Batt O'Keeffe. The Kyoto Protocol is not fully ratified but the European Union is operating it fully. If fully ratified and agreed, there will be fine mechanisms which do not have to be agreed. Does the EPA have figures which it feels will, if current levels continue, result in a charge on the Exchequer? Evidence has been given to this committee by Mr. Niall Callan, Secretary General of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, regarding the directive on emissions trading to the effect that, if current levels persist, there will be a cost of €1.2 billion to the economy for that element of climate change and greenhouse gas emissions.

Dr. Kelly

According to the national climate change strategy, if we do not take measures to comply with Kyoto by the year 2012, which as the committee is aware is the first period of the Kyoto commitment, the prediction is that we will be 13 million tonnes of carbon dioxide above the level at which we should be. That is if no measures are taken and we continue as we now do.

There is no cost on carbon, but if one takes a view that it might cost €20 per tonne, that equates to €260 million per annum, which is €1.3 billion over the five year commitment period of the Kyoto agreement. I agree with the Department figures, and the same analysis will appear in our state of the environment report.

Deputy Boyle

We have yet to tackle the problem of increasing greenhouse gas emissions.

Dr. Kelly

We are tackling it. When I say I agree with the Department figures, they refer to a worst case scenario with no measures taken. Even now, measures are being taken.

Deputy Boyle

Even if measures are being taken, given that we are 250% higher than we——

Dr. Kelly

Yes, it is an extremely serious problem and we are very worried about it.

Deputy Boyle

That being the case, should there be measures to discourage ventures that increase the carbon load or should we put a moratorium in place on new enterprises that would increase the carbon load in Ireland?

Dr. Kelly

One could do that or close down the ventures we have.

Deputy Boyle

I am asking about something that has financial implications for this country.

Dr. Kelly

It has huge financial implications. The emissions trading directive, however, is a mechanism which the EU has adopted in an attempt to make the market react. It will put a cap on the significant emitters, so to speak, in the industrial sector and give them a quota of carbon dioxide. If they go above that, they will have to pay whatever the price of carbon on the international market will be.

If, for example, carbon dioxide trades at €20 per tonne, it would be in the interests of a rational company or organisation emitting carbon dioxide to reduce the amount to where it costs it less than €20 per tonne. If it could put in an abatement measure that costs it €18 euro a tonne to do so, it will do that first before it pays the fee.

The idea is that one gives a market incentive to make abatement happen. This is all in the future, but we have begun to put it in place. The economic analyses that I see from the economists we took on, along with various other economic analyses, show that, at €10 per tonne and €20 per tonne, there are significant opportunities for abatement in the economy. We should see an abatement first, after which, in line with the polluter pays principle, the emitters will pay for carbon.

Deputy Boyle

That is all theoretical. Emissions trading is a concept devised by the United States which has the highest levels of greenhouse gas emissions in the world. The jury is still out as to whether emissions trading can and will work.

Dr. Kelly

It has only been tried in the United States with sulphur dioxide and MOX, not carbon dioxide.

Deputy Boyle

Will Dr. Kelly explain her contention that incinerators, styled as "waste to energy plants", would be regarded, if they are developed here, as carbon neutral? Would the same concept apply to generation stations which use fossil fuels such as peat, coal, oil or gas?

Dr. Kelly

No, it does not apply to fossil fuels such as peat, oil or gas, but to a renewable source, for example.

Deputy Boyle

Burning waste is, therefore, regarded as renewable, despite the fact that one never uses the same waste but different types of waste each time. How is this regarded as renewable?

Dr. Kelly

It is higher up the hierarchy than disposal. Landfill, as the Deputy is aware, also generates the greenhouse gas methane which has a higher global warming potential than carbon dioxide. One is, therefore, moving it from one chemical to another.

Deputy Boyle

As regards the decision by An Bord Pleanála, to which Dr. Kelly alluded in response to Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, and the choreography for waste management and planning, it appears that considerable public expense is incurred when members of the public engage in either process or both processes and that, each time a member of the public engages with An Bord Pleanála or the Environmental Protection Agency, it costs several hundred euro. Would it not result in a saving to the public purse to have the waste licence dealt with first? If the waste licence was not granted in the first instance, one would avoid the cost of infrastructure, which is the most significant aspect of spending.

Dr. Kelly

It is a matter for the applicant to decide which application to make first. In general, people progress their applications in parallel as otherwise they could wait several years on the outcome of one application followed by a similar wait for the outcome of the other. The order in which an applicant submits an application is a matter for the applicant. The two procedures, the planning and environmental codes, are separate in the legislation. No charge is levied for making a submission to the Environmental Protection Agency.

Deputy Boyle

Is that not akin to building a house before finding out if it is possible to connect it to services? Why is the EPA putting people through a process which may not ultimately materialise?

Dr. Kelly

That is really a matter for Government. We can only comply with the legislation. We operate according to the Environmental Protection Agency Act and the Waste Management Act, as amended by the Protection of the Environment Act. We have to accept an application when it is made. They are not required to be in series and may run in parallel.

Deputy Boyle

Has there ever been a circumstance in which planning has been granted for a waste facility, either a landfill or some scale of incineration, in which a local authority or An Bord Pleanála has granted permission and the Environmental Protection Agency subsequently did not approve the waste licence?

Dr. Kelly

No.

Deputy Boyle

I am not surprised. If a draft licence is issued for the Ringaskiddy facility, how much will it cost members of the public to make a complaint against it? Is it in the region of €250 to €300?

Dr. Kelly

No decision has been made on a draft licence for Ringaskiddy.

Deputy Boyle

I used the word "if", although I am not sure of the reason I qualified my question.

Dr. Kelly

It costs about £250 to make an objection. The Deputy may wish to convert the figure to euro.

Deputy Boyle

This figure relates to a standard objection. Does it cost more if one requires an oral hearing on the licence?

Dr. Kelly

A fee of about £100 is levied for requesting an oral hearing but there is no charge for the hearing itself. I understand, however, that it is extremely expensive for citizens to be involved in an oral hearing because they generally need to obtain legal advice.

Deputy Boyle

Why are the fees so high given that they do not come close to recovering the cost involved in such action? Is the reason to discourage people from making a complaint in the first instance?

Dr. Kelly

The fee is set in the legislation. I cannot comment on the reason for it.

Deputy Boyle

Regarding Dr. Kelly's projections on back garden burning of waste and its dioxin load, is it not the case that studies on dioxins in other European countries clearly indicate that the highest level of dioxins come from industrial sources?

Dr. Kelly

That may be the case in some countries which have a different profile of industry from ours. We took a United Nations environment programme protocol and applied it specifically to Irish circumstances. One cannot compare this country to Germany, the Netherlands or elsewhere because we do not have the same profile of industry as other countries. When we applied the protocol and took account of the Irish profile of activities, industrial and other, this is the profile for dioxins we arrived at.

Other countries would have a different profile. For example, countries with a significant steel industry or mass burn incinerators using old technology could well have a larger contribution from these facilities in their profiles. Applying the protocol to our profile required us to include the 11 planned incinerators. Assuming that regional waste management plans are taken forward and incinerators commence operations using state-of-the-art technology, which is the only form of technology we would consider allowing, this is the answer one obtains.

Deputy Boyle

The model used by the EPA only took account of the 11 incinerators when in full operation, not a malfunction or major accident which could occur at any of them.

Dr. Kelly

I cannot provide the exact detail now because it is a very detailed protocol but I could come back to the Deputy on it. I cannot answer that question. In the event of a malfunction, the incinerator in question would close down.

Deputy Boyle

If a major accident or malfunction were to occur, the dioxins would have already been released by the time the incinerator in question would be closed down.

Dr. Kelly

That is not necessarily the case.

Deputy Boyle

I will now move on to other areas but I will watch this space. The cost of enforcement of integrated pollution licences is listed as slightly more than €3 million in the accounts. This figure includes monitoring visits, inspections of sites, analysis of samples, licences, audits, notifications of non-compliance, section notices and legal prosecutions. It is not broken down under specific headings in the accounts but included as a general figure. Does the EPA have figures on the cost to the agency in each of the specified areas?

Dr. Kelly

Page 52 of the accounts, which the Deputy may already have seen, breaks down the figure somewhat.

Deputy Boyle

In that case, it may be worthwhile to ask specific questions. In 2002, eight companies were prosecuted. Is this figure inclusive or exclusive of the five local authorities which were prosecuted?

Dr. Kelly

The figure refers solely to IPC licensing so it is exclusive.

Deputy Boyle

While I accept the EPA did not receive the fines directly, what was the sum of the fines? I presume all the actions were heard in the District Court.

Dr. Kelly

Yes.

Deputy Boyle

At most, therefore, the State received a sum of €16,000 from the fines imposed in the eight prosecutions, given that the maximum fine at District Court level is, I understand, €2,000.

Dr. Kelly

Yes, but we were also awarded some of the costs. The maximum fine that can be imposed for each charge, of which there could be several, is €1,500 in the District Court. We have no control over the maximum fine set down in the legislation or the level of the fine the court imposes. In addition, the courts do not always impose the maximum fine.

Deputy Boyle

The EPA secured prosecutions against eight companies and received 694 complaints from the public.

Dr. Kelly

Yes.

Deputy Boyle

How many of those resulted in attempted prosecutions?

Dr. Kelly

We have been successful in all our prosecutions, so we do not have any attempted prosecutions in 2002. We obviously still have some outstanding. Of the 694 complaints, some of them are easily dealt with. Some of them can be dealt with over the telephone, for example, alerting somebody that something is happening and that it needs to stop and they stop it immediately. Some of them require the agency to write to people to explain what is happening and they come back and say they have corrected it. Sometimes we decide a matter is not serious enough for prosecution. We do not prosecute every complaint we get. Some of the complaints we get are not valid. For example, somebody might telephone to say black smoke is coming out of a particular facility. We would immediately send an inspector but sometimes it has been the case that the smoke was coming from next door where somebody was burning something. Some complaints are not valid while some are and on which we act. We have a hierarchy, or a progression, of things we do, whether talking or writing to people or sending them statutory notices and finally prosecuting them if we do not get——

Deputy Boyle

How many of the complaints are frivolous?

Dr. Kelly

I do not have a figure but I will try to come back to the Deputy on that because we log them all. I do not have a figure off the top of my head.

Deputy Boyle

It seems small that just over 1% of the complaints made by the public resulted in prosecutions of the companies concerned.

Dr. Kelly

We have other enforcement actions. The public does not always require a prosecution as the answer to its complaint. Much of the time, it wants the noise or the activity to cease — the source of the complaint.

Deputy Boyle

That is, presumably, if the public is aware something has happened which is a breach of the integrated pollution licence. I draw Dr. Kelly's attention to the incident at Glaxo SmithKline Beecham in Ringaskiddy in 2002 when the public was not aware of any breach or incident until the EPA took an action this year — 12 months later. How is the public supposed to be aware of where and when breaches occur and how is it supposed to ask the agency to respond to such breaches?

Dr. Kelly

As soon as we receive a complaint, we place it on the public file. It is available to the public but I agree with the Deputy that it would not necessarily know. If we felt there was an issue following a breach by a company of which the public should be informed — for example, if there was a health issue or contamination of water — we would take action. For example, if we became aware, as we have done, of a company which had contaminated the local water sources, we would immediately inform the local authority, advise it to stop using that source and to provide an alternative source of drinking water. Similarly, if we felt there was a public health issue, we would take action.

Deputy Boyle

The incident in Ringaskiddy was quite serious. If it had gone on longer, it could have resulted in public health issues. It was not identified by the agency and it took somebody working in the company to inform the agency the breach had occurred. How is the public supposed to know how and when breaches occur?

Dr. Kelly

We might come back to the Deputy on the specific issue of that, but I understand the EPA discovered the breach in that case. We can come back to talk to the Deputy specifically about that case. I do not really want to do so here.

Deputy Boyle

The water pollution incident about which Dr. Kelly spoke was, I presume, Procter and Gamble in Nenagh.

Dr. Kelly

It was not, but that is one.

Deputy Boyle

That resulted in a fine in the District Court of €2,000 for the company concerned. I think it resulted in a cost to the State of somewhere in the region of €8 million to clean up the water system. Where are the checks and balances?

Chairman

I would prefer if the Deputy did not refer to specific cases.

Deputy Boyle

I presume it refers to the year in question under ongoing prosecutions. I will move on to another area. Income from waste licensing enforcement was over €2 million while the cost was €3.5 million. There was a deficit of €1.375 million. In regard to what Deputy Fleming said, we are mainly talking about local authorities and some private waste consultants. How is the polluter pays principle being applied by the agency?

Dr. Kelly

I think the figures at which I am looking represent approximately 89% recoupment of costs on the waste side. There are elements outside the actual licensing where we might give advice to local authorities and where it costs us to do that. Some of the activities we carry out are not directly recoupable from licences.

Deputy Boyle

In regard to those waste licences and the breaches that occur, what are the levels of fines imposed?

Dr. Kelly

Again, it is a matter for the courts. We can take it to the District Court. The maximum fine is the same as for IPC licensing. The maximum fine is set in the legislation. The courts can fine up to €1,500 but do not always fine the maximum. A fine can be imposed on each charge we bring, so sometimes seven or eight fines are imposed.

Deputy Boyle

Has the agency taken action against persistent offenders, whether local authorities, landfills or other waste disposal facilities? I am thinking of my own area where the Kinsale road landfill received the highest number of breaches from the agency last year alone and yet the licence has been extended on two occasions by the agency. What is the incentive to adhere to a licence if it seems to be renewed automatically even if there are regular breaches of it?

Dr. Kelly

On persistent offenders, we must keep on top of it and keep carrying out our enforcement activities up as far as prosecution and we will continue to do that. Where there have been persistent breaches, and if the company or the organisation, if it is a local authority, has not shown willing, we have taken out injunctions and closed it down. We will not view local authorities differently from private companies. A waste facility is a waste facility and it must be managed according to the licence. The enforcement procedure for a licence would be the same whether for a local authority or a private company. We have taken an injunction. One must build up a lot of evidence before one will get an injunction. As one can imagine, an injunction is a serious thing for which to look, but we have been successful in that regard.

Deputy Boyle

What is the percentage of waste licences issued as opposed to waste licences not approved by the agency?

Dr. Kelly

All the operating local authority landfills are licensed as are all the private sector ones. I cannot tell the Deputy about illegal ones about which I do not know. Approximately 12% are withdrawn or abandoned. Of the operating sites, all the local authority sites are licensed and all the private sector sites operating are licensed. At the moment, we have reviews for maybe increasing or expanding capacity or else for building new ones. Obviously, there are a number of licences before us to consider.

Chairman

Deputy Boyle, Deputy Joe Higgins is offering.

Deputy Boyle

I have many questions, Chairman. I should not be more than ten minutes, I presume.

Chairman

Do you want to come back in and let Deputy Joe Higgins in now?

Deputy Boyle

I would like to finish. I point out my record at the committee in regard to asking questions and the time I take as compared to other members. I would like to continue.

Chairman

Okay. Keep to the questions.

Deputy Boyle

On waste licences, the 2002 annual report pointed out that there were 200 notifications of non-compliance and yet three licensees were prosecuted. This seems to be a low level of prosecution. Do the 200 notifications apply to 200 separate incidents or licences? Is the figure available as to how many licences are affected that way? Will Dr. Kelly explain why so few prosecutions were proceeded with?

Dr. Kelly

The notifications for non-compliance can range from not keeping records to not fulfilling other conditions of our licences. As I said, the agency's enforcement powers are on a sliding scale. If serious or significant environmental pollution is happening, we always prosecute. There is then a scale of activities that a company could be doing. We would send them a notice of non-compliance. For example, we might say that they are not in compliance with condition 5 of their licence, which requires them to send us a report. It can be that kind of thing. We view them very seriously and require the company to send us the report and ensure that it sends it again. That indicates to us if we have a company that is consistently doing the same thing, such as not reporting — in other words, building up a history of what could be regarded by the courts as fairly trivial. However, we would build up such a history and then prosecute the company for several matters. The majority of those instances of non-compliance are in areas where the agency does not consider it appropriate to prosecute. If we felt so, we would prosecute.

Deputy Boyle

In her opening statement, Dr. Kelly talked of the wide-ranging agenda of the EPA, both now and into the future. The EPA's funding in 2002 was reduced to €16.9 million. It had been €18.1 million in 2001. I do not have the 2003 figures to hand, but I remember from the Book of Estimates that its funding for 2004 is lower again. Is the agency being asked to be leaner and meaner or get money from other sources? How is it possible to pursue the agency's remit on reducing sums?

Dr. Kelly

The first figure that Deputy Boyle mentioned has to do with capital projects, which we finished the previous year. That meant that we did not have a capital allowance for the next year. Regarding the 2004 Estimates, they are not our day-to-day expenses. Our cost-of-living increases were given to us. Our current funding is an increase on 2003. The apparent drop comes in because our fund for research and development is now being financed from elsewhere. That is why zero appears for research and development for 2004. We have been promised that funding from another source — the environment fund.

Deputy Boyle

I have two other questions and will then leave it at that. Regarding freedom of information requests made to the agency, what is the average fee requested by the agency for members of the public seeking information on environmental matters?

Dr. Kelly

I cannot give the Deputy the figure, but I will come back to him on it.

Deputy Boyle

Would I be right in thinking that it is significant and on a par with fees asked regarding objections to licences?

Dr. Kelly

It is very rare that people need to come to us under the Freedom of Information Act, since all the information that we have is on public file. Everything to do with the application — all correspondence between the applicant and the agency, all enforcement issues and all correspondence between the agency and the applicant — is on the public file and available free of charge. It is rare that anyone would need to seek freedom of information material from us. Subject to confirmation, we believe that we have not charged, but I will be able to confirm that.

Deputy Boyle

Dr. Kelly mentioned the tenth anniversary of the EPA in her opening submission and listed the challenges that the agency continues to face. Is it fair to say that, after ten years, the fact that we have high and increasing amounts of waste and greenhouse emissions, that we still have unacceptably high levels of intensive agricultural practices, and that there are significant environmental problems with planning, means that the EPA seems to be running up the hill backwards? It is not about trying to tackle these problems at all but about slowing down their worsening effects. Is public expenditure not the ultimate question to which the agency must respond?

Dr. Kelly

There were a few points there. We continue to point out that the Irish environment is of very high quality. However, it continues to come under increasing pressure, as the Deputy has pointed out, mostly from economic development. Over the last ten years, in the areas mentioned, such as high and increasing amounts of waste, we have seen tremendous improvements in the way that waste is regulated and in its effects on the environment. These things take some time, and we have been licensing waste only since 1998, but we are now beginning to see a proper, modern infrastructure for waste management coming into being. In other words, the landfills that are operating now are doing so according to best practice. They are lined, collect leachate and deal with landfill gas, which they did not do in the past. That is a significant success for the agency in having managed to turn a virtually completely unregulated area to one that is quite highly regulated. That is one area.

On the IPC side, which we have been licensing since 1994, Professor Frank Convery of UCD and one of his students conducted a study on whether there was a cost benefit to IPC licensing. He identified a whole range of areas. His conclusion was that there is a net benefit to the economy from having that licensing in place. In that report, which we can make available to the member if he is interested in reading it — it is quite thick, but there are summaries — there is a whole range of areas where VOCs have decreased, along with various other hazardous waste streams. It is detailed in the report. The net improvement in the environment regarding things not going into it any more that used to go into it and the whole regulation of the industrial sector in Ireland are a huge success, and that is all down to the licensing system, which was not in place before.

The quality of water in rivers, after many years of decline, is also beginning to improve. I accept that the environment is under pressure, and as an Environmental Protection Agency that is our number one concern. We are constantly pointing out the pressures that the environment is under, but there is light at the end of the tunnel, and many of the policies that have been put in place are beginning to come to fruition.

Deputy Boyle

I found what Dr. Kelly said about hazardous waste streams decreasing interesting. I would argue that that is precisely because we have not had the easy disposal option.

Dr. Kelly

Each IPC licence that we issue requires a company which has hazardous waste or any kind of waste to prevent, if possible, or reduce it. They must produce a waste reduction plan for us. If a hazardous waste incinerator were in existence — people have access to them, since they can export waste quite easily — we would not ease off on our licence, saying that people could produce loads. We would still require companies to examine their processes and have an ongoing, progressive programme of continuous improvement to eliminate the most hazardous substances. It will continue to be there.

Deputy J. Higgins

Perhaps I might bring Dr. Kelly back to the section on waste management in the report she presented today. She said the data collected for the national waste database indicates that waste generation continues to rise and that recycling rates, while also on the increase, cannot keep pace. She said significant prevention measures along with increased recycling capacity will be required in future. Was Dr. Kelly shocked when her agency presented her with the figures from the study which it carried out in 2001? In round figures, 302,000 tonnes of paper were produced by households. An incredible 279,000 tonnes went to landfill. From commercial sources, which include businesses and shops but not industry, of just over half a million tonnes of paper that emerged, a stunning 358,000 tonnes went to landfill. That is 92% in the case of household paper and 71% in the case of commercial paper. Was Dr. Kelly shocked by those figures?

Dr. Kelly

The agency is in the business of collecting this data on an ongoing basis and we produced a report three years before which would have stated that even higher percentages were going to landfill. In answer to the Deputy's question, I do not know if I was shocked but I am shocked that it continues to be at that level. I was not surprised that it is still at that level because we know what is happening on the ground. It is the wrong thing.

Deputy J. Higgins

I will confine my comments about the same study to organic and commercial waste. Organic waste going to landfill was just over half a million tonnes and plastic waste from both sectors was just over 220,000 tonnes. I will keep the figures simple. The agency's study found that in 2001, just under 2 million tonnes of waste went from households and commercial sources to landfill. Paper and glass accounted for 37% of that waste. Plastic accounted for 11% and organic material that can be composted accounted for 28%. That is a total of 76% of items that are eminently recyclable. Why is it not happening? Why is the amount going from household and commercial sources to landfill not reduced by 76% at a stroke?

Dr. Kelly

Lack of infrastructure is one of the answers. There are two factors — the education of people and the provision of infrastructure for those kind of capacities. From the Environmental Protection Agency point of view, we would like to see all of that being removed from landfill, as the Deputy pointed out. Part of the purpose of producing our national waste database — another member asked me how we feed into policy — is so that policy makers will have access to those figures and can see precisely where policies need to be pointed. The agency recognises this in the conclusions and recommendations. We need more infrastructure; we need a national waste prevention plan and we need it actioned. The agency is in the process of starting to get that ready. We have a commitment from Government to have funding over the next number of years.

Deputy J. Higgins

Does Dr. Kelly agree that local authorities are empowered by law to implement by-laws which can, for example, require that no recyclable or organic material goes into the landfill bin? Is that not the case?

Dr. Kelly

As far as I know, that is the case.

Deputy J. Higgins

So there is a complete failure on the part of local authorities to seriously carry forward the question of significant diversion from landfill.

Chairman

The EPA would not be responsible for the failure of local authorities.

Deputy J. Higgins

I am sorry to disagree with the Chairman. One of the objectives of the agency is to oversee the pollution control and related environmental activities of local authorities and ensure they are carried out in an effective manner.

Dr. Kelly

I can deal with that question. If the local authorities were to ban all biodegradable waste from going into domestic bins tomorrow morning, some alternative infrastructure would have to be provided by somebody somewhere to deal with it.

Deputy J. Higgins

If we start with paper and glass and leave aside organic waste for the moment.

Dr. Kelly

Even with paper and glass, a facility must still be provided to deal with it. It is a parallel process. The local authorities all have waste management plans. As far as I am aware, most of those plans — I will not say they are all exactly the same — come out at around 50% recycling of the waste for which they are responsible. They are working towards it. I agree with the Deputy that progress is slow but it is happening.

Deputy J. Higgins

It is clearly the case that the main culprit for the slowness of recycling rates is the lack of infrastructure rolled out by the local authorities.

Dr. Kelly

Lack of infrastructure and lack of education. There have been studies done on collection of recyclables where there is not a market. It results in the production of a stockpile of an unmarketable commodity.

Deputy J. Higgins

Then where are we going? Paper can be recycled.

Dr. Kelly

Yes. It can be recycled.

Deputy J. Higgins

Due to the fact that the infrastructure is not there, 92% from households and 70% from commercial went to landfill, so that is a major failure in regard to paper. I suggest that Dr. Kelly is not like the Secretary General of a Government Department who can come before this committee and say, correctly according to the rules, that they cannot discuss policy. The EPA has a role in coming up with policies and pushing policies.

Has the EPA had an input into the campaign, Race Against Waste, run by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government?

Dr. Kelly

Yes. We are involved in a steering committee for bringing that campaign forward.

Deputy J. Higgins

In view of Dr. Kelly's analysis of the waste going to landfill and the lack of an infrastructure, why did the agency allow that fraudulent television advertisement to be transmitted? It is quite seriously fraudulent on a number of grounds. It shows householders as being responsible for this waste apocalypse when householders account for only 15% of what went to landfill in 2001. It gives a completely fraudulent impression.

Dr. Kelly

I am sorry, I may have misled the Deputy about the agency's involvement in this. We did not have any say in allowing a campaign of any nature to go ahead. We are involved in a steering group on the race against waste which has other policies as well as the advertising campaign. We had no veto on an advertising campaign. It is part of raising awareness in terms of people's responsibilities regarding waste.

Chairman

The official from the Department may wish to comment on this issue.

Deputy J. Higgins

Thank you, Chairman. Before the official replies, I wish to make another point on which he may wish to comment. The EPA should be very concerned. It is fraudulent information and advertising to show householders as being responsible for a waste apocalypse when they account for 15% of what goes to landfill. As we have seen from the EPA's interesting report, we are pretending that it depends on people and are appealing to their goodwill but we know now that the infrastructure is not there. These conscientious people are shown at the end of this advertisement putting their bottles and cans into the recycling bins yet we now know that in many areas the infrastructure to do this does not exist. What is the purpose of this advertisement and campaign?

Dr. Kelly

I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to comment.

Ms Tallon

: I thank the Chair. As the EPA has said, municipal waste is comprised of a range of materials, all of which appear in the municipal waste stream. The Department's advertising is part of the race against waste programme, which has wider elements such as education and information, and is designed to provide a measure which has a strong impact on the consequences of waste growth at household level. It is designed to move householders, who share responsibility for managing waste, towards reduction, reuse and recycling. The current advertisement is one of a series which will form a campaign that will last for some years.

It is not true to say that infrastructure is not being provided. Significant infrastructure is already being provided. There is an increase in the number of bring centres provided by local authorities and there is also a substantial roll-out of segregated waste collection at local authority level. There is substantial expansion in bring facilities, recycling centres, civic amenity sites and composting facilities which will come on stream in coming years. These facilities will be provided on a phased basis under the waste management plans which are now in place and being implemented.

The environment fund receives the proceeds of the plastic bag levy and the landfill levy and it is providing resources for substantial expansion in waste recycling activities.

Deputy J. Higgins

What was the cost of the advertisement I referred to?

Ms Tallon

I cannot say what was the precise cost. I will have to find that information and provide it to the Deputy. I am not sure.

Deputy J. Higgins

In view of what Ms Tallon said about it not being true that there was an infrastructure problem, why did 6,000 tons of paper go into landfills in 2001?

Ms Tallon

I am not saying there is not an infrastructure problem, but it is being addressed extensively through investment.

Deputy J. Higgins

I hope, when one is made aware of the reality, I have illustrated the hypocrisy of the Minister and the Department with this advertisement. Is Dr. Kelly aware that six local authorities in the south-east commissioned Irish Marketing Survey to carry out a survey published in 2002 which showed, incredibly, that 37% of households admitted to burning waste?

Dr. Kelly

We have a copy of that survey, yes.

Deputy J. Higgins

It was conducted scientifically so we must conclude there is some basis to it. Are you aware that a senior official in one of those local authorities related this to the increasing cost of domestic waste charges? Can we deduce from this that the increasing bin cost is unfortunately resulting in a greater hazard to the environment as people cannot afford €400, or whatever the charge for collection is, and are therefore behaving in this environmentally irresponsible way? Is that a concern for the EPA?

Dr. Kelly

The Deputy may be right and there may be links but the polluter pays principle is espoused by the environmental community. For example, the plastic bag levy, which imposed responsibility on the individual, changed behaviour overnight in Ireland. The bin charge system may in its initial stages drive people to fly-tipping, which is unfortunate, or to burning waste, but in the long term it will make people more aware of the amount and type of rubbish they put out. I could give anecdotal evidence of people who now put their bins out once every three weeks as opposed to once every two weeks and who take material to be recycled. Putting an economic indicator at the household level is a good mechanism for changing behaviour, and we need to change behaviour. The Deputy asked if I am shocked by statistics but we need to change behaviour or it will get worse. This fiscal instrument is one of many tools with which to do so but it is a useful one in the armoury.

Deputy J. Higgins

A cost of €400 per annum is an incentive to nobody to reduce waste and may work in the opposite way. People recycle because they want to and because they know it is environmentally responsible. They do not need a big stick over their heads.

Dr. Kelly said work is ongoing on a national waste prevention plan, including a core prevention team to be based in the agency. If we come back to packaging, the application of the 1996 Act by the Department makes a nonsense of this situation because it contradicts the policy of prevention. In 1996 consumers could bring back recyclable packaging to the outlets where it was purchased, but the Minister's Repak scheme has given manufacturers a way out; they pay a charge and they do not have to accept responsibility for packaging. They then litter the shelves with packaging the householder must get rid of. Is that not a contradiction?

Dr. Kelly

I do not find that a contradiction. This kind of scheme exists almost everywhere in Europe. In the Irish scheme a producer or packager pays per item and per type of packaging. They pay more if the packaging is hard to recycle. I do not know how much money Repak collects from manufacturers but it is a substantial amount, in the millions, and it is put into the provision of recycling infrastructure. The money also helps local authorities with infrastructure. I am not sure how many companies were taking back packaging at the point of sale in 1996. I think there was one.

Deputy J. Higgins

It was provided for specifically by the Act.

Dr. Kelly

A number of companies have taken the option of not paying into Repak and they take the packaging back themselves. Other companies pay Repak and do not have to take back their packaging.

Deputy J. Higgins

That is because paying Repak gives them the licence to put any amount of packaging they want on the shelves, packaging the unfortunate consumer is then stuck with. It is a nonsense that I can go into my local supermarket where a couple of sausages or even a doughnut, with a hole in the middle, must be wrapped in a polystyrene tray, with clear plastic around it.

Chairman

That is a health guideline.

Deputy J. Higgins

It is not a health guideline.

Dr. Kelly

It is.

Deputy J. Higgins

And carrots and brussels sprouts also. It is unreal. I hope the EPA will take on board some of the points I have made after reading the transcript of the meeting. There are glaring contradictions. We are getting from sections of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, and the political masters in particular, a propaganda message which is completely contradicted by the reality of the implementation on the ground.

Chairman

What is the corporate status of Repak?

Dr. Kelly

I do not know but I will come back to the Chairman on that matter.

Chairman

Has the Department any knowledge on Repak? It plays a huge role in the commercial world.

Dr. Kelly

As far as I am aware, the company is limited by guarantee. I will get confirmation on that.

Chairman

As Deputy Higgins said, it plays a huge role in the commercial world in respect of paying the fee and it works closely in partnership with the EPA and the Department. Is there any audit responsibility over it?

Dr. Kelly

It does not necessarily work in partnership with the EPA. Our role is to produce the statistics. We must decide whether the statistics Repak produces are real and if the recycling is taking place. We have no other promotional details.

Chairman

Perhaps Ms Tallon will comment on the role of Repak and the level of funding collected to date from the plastic bag levy. Is it the case that the fund is being used for investment?

Ms Tallon

Repak is a producer responsibility initiative under the packaging waste directive. The packaging waste directive was adopted at European Community level in 1994. It provided options for compliance with targets set under the directive. In the case of Ireland, we were required to recycle or recover 25% of our packaging waste by 2001. The directive provided options for compliance arrangements to be put in place through regulation directly applied to individual producers of packaging, or through a self-compliant scheme designed by packaging waste producers. The directive was transposed into Irish legislation. IBEC, on behalf of packaging waste producers, entered into an agreement with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to develop and provide for a self-compliant scheme on behalf of packaging waste producers. It is a producer responsibility initiative, recognised in regulations which, in turn, transposes into national law community legislation. In 2002, Repak confirmed on the basis of figures it collects, and which are corroborated in the 2001 waste database report, that the packaging waste target required under community legislation was met by the scheme. The packaging waste directive requires higher targets to be achieved in 2005. Further targets will apply to specific material levels later in the decade.

On the plastic bags levy, approximately €10 million was collected during the first year of operation. I would have to confirm that figure to the committee.

Chairman

In the commercial world, business is paying a very high rate of fee towards Repak, therefore, it has an obligation to reinvest in recycling schemes. Is the fund being benchmarked independently?

Ms Tallon

Repak is obliged to authenticate its facts and figures in terms of income received and expenditure. Auditing and so on of its accounts is a matter for Repak.

Chairman

Apparently it is a very cash rich group. There is an abundance of cash. Given the level of recycling and the fact that a huge level of funds is being paid into Repak, and the fact that recycling is a costly business, I am surprised the fund is not integrated into the two State supervised structures.

Deputy Dennehy

On the two final schemes, in case anyone listening might think we are a bit ignorant of them, we get at least a quarterly report from Repak outlining every issue covered, including the amount of money received, the tonnage and who has signed up for it, which is useful. We receive a report on a regular basis from the Minister of State outlining the distribution of funds accruing from the plastic bag levy and how it is being allocated. I am pleased to say that in Cork City Council we have been funded for approximately 42 bring sites.

Deputy Boyle

They are replacing the ones we took away, but that is another issue.

Deputy Dennehy

It is correct that some were taken away because they were a nuisance and badly designed. The current design is ultra modern and is as good a standard as anywhere in the world. We need to balance the debate.

Chairman

I am totally familiar with Repak from being in the trade.

Deputy Dennehy

The questions being asked might give the impression that we do not know what is happening. I am fully aware of what is happening.

Chairman

I am asking Ms Tallon about the Department's role in Repak.

Deputy Dennehy

I agree totally that recycling is a very costly business. I am pleased that Deputy Higgins is becoming strongly in favour of recycling. We have been saying in the past that the cost of recycling would be 5:1 as against the cost of landfill. Some people, particularly public representatives, refused to buy into this huge cost, which is facing individuals who have the waste and which must be collected and recycled. It is a fact that the cost is much greater. Those of us who tried up to now to encourage recycling have been met in many instances by a reluctance to pay on the part of customers and the public.

However, there has been radical change and that must be continued. My big concern has been addressed by Dr. Kelly, that is, the stockpiling of materials. It appeared everything could be recycled. It is emerging now that a large amount of plastic, including PETE bottles and so on, cannot. People spoke about making furniture and so on from repressed glass but it is not working.

We need to be honest with people from the beginning and we need to encourage recycling. Some may say that the advertisement referred to was over the top. Deputy Higgins referred to the Irish marketing surveys. These people are paid to tell people what will make an impact and what will not. I am not in the PR business, other than working for my own cause. I am sure someone advised there was a need for a certain level of action. I do not have a personal view on the issue but I believe we must encourage people to recycle their waste.

I disagree totally with Deputy Higgins — it is the first time we have had a debate on this issue in a forum such as this — because to say that most people conscientiously recycle is not correct. As Deputy Boyle will be aware, for my sins I was appointed chairman of Solid Waste Management eight or nine years ago in Cork city when no one would touch the Kinsale Road dump, as it was then called. I know the number of people who were trying to recycle waste. Anyone who was recycling at that stage was considered to be slightly eccentric — perhaps a little bit mad if one was poor but eccentric if one had finance. People needed to be encouraged. In some cases they needed to be penalised. That battle is still going on.

We must be able to prove that plastic, lead glass, etc., can be recycled. If it cannot we should admit it straight away. We can either penalise people or encourage good will. People will recycle through good will. We have taken the right slant on it. Some people have taken a philosophical or political stance on certain issues and they are entitled to do that. They are also entitled to present their views to the public. The rest of us have a job to do.

The amount of waste is growing but it was clearly forecast as our economy improved. I am very concerned about it. Again, the point was made by Deputies that 76% of landfill could be recycled and I do not dispute that figure. The cost involved would be at least three times higher.

Customers do not generate waste but they are responsible for it because they purchase it. Other sectors are involved. For example, the food sector must use extra packaging to separate raw and cooked products and this has led to difficulties. Suppliers have tried to deal with the problem.

Deputy Boyle referred to the rate of prosecutions being only 1%. Anyone can analyse statistics in a positive or negative way. It proves that the EPA is capable of encouraging change and doing things. Perhaps it was able to encourage people to change in 99% of cases and that is why it only had to penalise the remaining 1%. The agency is improving. Some people undermine all statutory bodies no matter whether it is An Bord Pleanála or the EPA, but we need them. The agency must generate as much public confidence as possible. If it imposed a fine on a controversial operator, such as an incinerator, people may not trust it in the future.

The delegation may wonder why Ringaskiddy featured so much today but three committee members represent Cork South Central. For most of my adult life, prior to taking up office, I worked for Irish Steel in Ringaskiddy and it is in that context that I will pose some questions. To some extent people in the Ringaskiddy area do not trust State agencies mainly because of their dealings with Haulbowline and Irish Ispat Limited, formerly Irish Steel Limited. Does the EPA have any dealings with the company?

Everyone accepts that the Haulbowline site is contaminated and we are faced with a bill for €30 million to clean it up. I am worried that there is no will to do it. Can the agency do anything if radioactive material is stored on the site? There are hundreds of tonnes of furnace dust at the site. Slag from the furnace and many other substances must be dealt with. As I have informed other Departments, the island has the potential to be a great asset in the Cork area but the contaminated site must be dealt with. Can the EPA do something about it? If so, can it play a lead role? Can it insist that the relevant Departments clean up the island because any licence granted is being breached?

Dr. Kelly

I shall try to deal with the Haulbowline issue. My agency issued an IPC licence to Irish Ispat Limited shortly before it closed and we are seeking implement it. The licence mainly concerns remediation and cleaning up the contamination. We do not deal with the radioactive matter. We only deal with the rest of the waste on or associated with the site. Most of the conditions associated with the licence concern the clean up referred to by the Deputy.

My agency is seeking to implement the licence even though the company has ceased. The liquidator contested our right to do that and a case was heard in the High Court. We now await a court ruling. We strongly defended our right to implement the conditions of the licence in the court and that was the right thing to do.

Deputy Dennehy

I am concerned about the matter and how it will affect future decisions regarding the area. I worked at the site for 25 years and I worked with the people now campaigning about it. They say to me that the EPA granted a licence to the companies but the site is a contaminated dump. Perhaps it is radioactive. Everyone accepts that it is a health hazard. People want to know what the agency is doing to improve the situation. Is there another way in which the agency can act? Can the EPA direct the Government, its Ministers or departmental chiefs to do something?

Dr. Kelly

The Irish Ispat issue is a very complicated issue. There is a legal issue concerning the leasehold of the land and it was an issue in the courts. Sometimes when we grant a licence to a facility, be it an industrial facility like Irish Ispat or a landfill site, people take it to mean that the licence allows the licensee to continue to operate as they had been doing. However, frequently our licences require facilities to stop what they are doing and to only operate in a proper manner. The site would no longer pose a threat in the Cork area if the conditions of the IPC licence granted to Irish Ispat had been complied with. That is why we strongly contest with the liquidator that our licence conditions must hold.

It is a similar situation for waste licences. Frequently, particularly with historical sites, we have given licences to local authorities or others that only remediate the site. That means that we have control over it and we instruct how they will remediate it and what they must do with the contamination caused. Technically we issue a licence but sometimes it is a licence to cease operations as a landfill and remediate. Sometimes it is difficult to convey that message to people.

Deputy Dennehy

Does Dr. Kelly accept that people are very concerned about the matter? A licence application has been lodged for an incinerator and I do not want to pre-empt that. However, people have said to me that the EPA is powerless. If the liquidator folds will the site be left with a thousand tonnes of toxic waste? Unfortunately, past experience would indicate that the agency is powerless where a liquidator is involved or a company crashes.

Dr. Kelly

I can understand the concern of people. There is a very big difference between the EPA trying to licence historic sites involving complicated legal matters and dealing with a new site. If my agency were to license a company like the example given we would require financial guarantees up front, particularly for waste facilities. Our licence conditions cater for a company's closure or liquidation. In some case we would even have bonds in place.

Deputy Dennehy

It is good to hear that. On the question of enforcement, I agree with the points made about improving the situation. As Deputy Boyle mentioned earlier, Kinsale Road was an open dump for 30 years and operated without any controls. Now the agency has issued ten warning notices and has indicated what is required to be done. The agency's overlap with the fisheries board was mentioned, which became involved because the Tramore river runs through part of the dump or what is now known as a landfill. Who takes precedence on the question of enforcement or are both bodies working together? Would the agency liaise with an enforcement officer from the Southern Regional Fisheries Board?

Dr. Kelly

We liaise with the board and it makes submissions to us during the licensing process. However, once we grant a licence we take control of it.

Deputy Dennehy

I prefer not to ask about specific cases, but are you aware of the up to date position on the Kinsale landfill? Is it performing well?

Dr. Kelly

I do not have that information but I can inform the Deputy later. I have been told that it has significantly improved.

Deputy Dennehy

I do not wish to lead the witness but I believe it is improved. On the question of enforcement, a figure of 84% for uncontrolled burning was mentioned. Everyone will now tackle those who start backyard fires by referring to the law in this area. There is another peculiar industry in two locations very near to this landfill which is engaged in burning for the recovery of copper cable. Our valley can be obscured by a black haze on the most beautiful summer evening which, I venture to say, is more damaging than 1,000 backyard fires. Should the local authority act in that case? We are aware of who is doing the burning although there may be different persons involved at different times. How do we stamp out this kind of practice, which is reasonably widespread? I presume it is not only happening in the Cork area. The burning of plastic or rubber on old or new cable must be contaminating.

Dr. Kelly

I agree with Deputy Dennehy. It is a matter for the local authority and that is exactly the kind of uncontrolled burning with which we are concerned. We are not only talking about people burning rubbish in their backyard or burning the contents of their bins. We are also concerned with the type of burning Deputy Dennehy describes, which also occurs in other places. The local authority is responsible for it. Some of the complaints we get, with which we deal and which do not necessarily go to prosecution, concern uncontrolled burning. I can think of a few cases where we contacted the local authority and asked what it was doing about it. The local authority will then inspect the problem and submit a report to us. We can have these incidents dealt with. If Deputy Dennehy can give us specific details we can address the problem to which he referred.

Deputy Dennehy

I will do so. A number of us have tried to deal with the matter over many years.

Dr. Kelly was asked previously about her input into the paragraph on climate change. Her two areas of interest are energy production and transport. When is she asked her opinion on wind farms and scrubbers for electrical stations and on the question of road versus rail? Is that an ongoing process?

Dr. Kelly

There is a national climate change strategy which is published and produced by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and on which we were consulted. It deals not only with point sources and abatement, but also with issues of transport and alternative and renewable energies. We were consulted and we fed into that report at the consultation stage.

I mentioned our state of the environment report. We produced one in 2000 and we will produce another in a couple of months. We use that as a vehicle to outline our policy advice on those areas. In a publication like that, which is a flagship publication for us, we highlight the challenges in the climate change, including road and rail issues. It is a very complex issue.

Deputy Dennehy

I can appreciate that. I wondered where the agency would come in.

I am greatly supportive of discharge licences. We hear comments about the increased number of licensed discharges into rivers. The difficulty was that previously discharges were not licensed. We have now got around to licensing.

Deputy Fleming asked about unlicensed dumps. By the end of the year there will be 561 licensed industrial sites. Are there many unlicensed industrial sites? Can the agency carry out inspections of those sites or take action to insist they are licensed?

Dr. Kelly

On the industrial side, Deputy Dennehy's figure is for 2002. At present we have issued 603 IPC licences. There is not a huge number of unlicensed activities. There are a few, as I said earlier in response to another question, on the piggery side. There is a schedule for licensing and only certain activities with high potential to pollute are licensed by the agency. Where they have an environmental impact at all, the other industries must get a water pollution licence or an air pollution licence from the local authority. It is a two-tier system. The more serious cases come to us for licensing. We are happy that the vast majority of facilities that need a licence under the IPC directive are with us at the moment. The IPPC directive extends that and later we will be requiring a number of dairies, smaller piggeries and poultry facilities to seek a licence from us. It is an extension. At present the only significant outstanding operators — it is not that many — are involved in the intensive piggery area.

Local authorities are in charge of the operators with less potential to pollute. Our role with the local authority extends to ensuring that the local authority is carrying out its monitoring role with them. We do not go into the facilities individually, although we could do. We ask the local authority if it is doing its job in this area.

Deputy Dennehy

Dr. Kelly indicated that the other option is significant prevention measures. Has she any ideas she could share with members of the committee? We know the obvious ones, such as less packaging. Are there any other ideas for preventing the creation of waste?

Dr. Kelly

We have a few. It is easy to say we should be preventing but if no one does anything about it then it does not get done. Everyone has ideas. We are in the process of bringing together a programmed approach for the prevention of waste. We will identify, both in the manufacturing and domestic sectors, areas where we can show a company how to reduce waste. We will try to identify areas where we can make a difference. We will be targeting different waste streams. Sometimes people talk about waste as if it were a homogenous commodity, which it is not. Our approach will be on a waste stream basis and in different sectors. The programme is not developed yet but we have been promised funding from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and we will be launching the programme within two months. We will circulate the details of it when we do.

Deputy Dennehy

That is essential. The initiative on construction waste probably made the biggest change, apart from the plastic bags levy. Someone must take a lead on this and not leave it to everyone else. I am glad to hear the EPA is involved.

I wish the EPA well, and Dr. Kelly in her directorship of it. I am looking forward to her returning to the committee next year. We must deal with this problem. We are looking at value for money but this issue affects all of us.

Chairman

There has been a question of the EPA consenting to the controlled release of GMOs by a healthcare company. What acreage is growing at present?

Dr. Kelly

None. The product is an angina drug. It is a biotech industry. It just happens to be a genetically modified micro-organism that is producing the drug, and it is finished.

Chairman

On the question of accounts do you have an audit committee in place at the moment?

Dr. Kelly

An internal audit committee?

Chairman

Yes.

Dr. Kelly

We have just appointed an internal audit committee. We are using an external auditor to do the work for us because we do not have the staff to do it internally.

Chairman

Are documented financial control procedures in place?

Dr. Kelly

We are in the process of having that completed. We are more than half way through it.

Chairman

Your balance sheet has taken a hit. It would appear that all your reserve funds have gone. How can you explain going from a surplus of €289,000 to a loss of €461,000?

Dr Kelly

We were aware that we had a surplus of almost €500,000. We decided, in a planned way, to use it on various programmes and measures undertaken last year.

Chairman

Will the difficulty of having no reserve fund create an impact in the current financial year?

Dr. Kelly

There will be tight budgeting this year.

Chairman

The wage bill has increased from less than €10 million to almost €12 million.

Dr. Kelly

That has been caused by wage agreements, benchmarking and the recruitment of extra staff.

Chairman

Will that impact on your disbursement from the Exchequer this year?

Dr. Kelly

Our funding for this year provides for that increase.

Deputy Boyle

I wish to pursue a point raised by Deputy Dennehy. Dr. Kelly spoke of a High Court case and mentioned that leasehold issues were involved. It might be useful for the committee if the agency supplied us with a summary of the leasehold issues as we are asking about disposal of property in the same circumstances.

Dr. Kelly

The written judgment would probably be the most useful. We would not be in a position to make a determination on the leasehold; it is a separate issue. It affects us only in terms of whether the liquidator keeps funds to implement the licence. Our interest is one of having the licence implemented. We would not be competent to provide the committee with a view on the leasehold.

Deputy Boyle

Is it fair to say that the company concerned is deciding what it does and does not own?

Dr. Kelly

The liquidator is deciding that.

Deputy Boyle

That is useful.

Deputy Dennehy

It is the first time, in my experience, that the four Departments concerned have come together and that a lead Department is handling the matter. As the court case is over it would be no harm to get an update on the matter. We had both delegations here together. The original map indicates the lease was created in the 1830s and dealt with leases from the British to our people in Defence. There were many blue and red lines on the map. It would be no harm to obtain an update on that issue.

Chairman

That is a good recommendation. Perhaps the agency could provide us with an update on the situation.

Deputy Dennehy

It would not be the responsibility of the agency to do so.

Dr. Kelly

We would not be in a position to provide the committee with an update of the situation.

Deputy Dennehy

The agency is a small player in that regard.

Dr. Kelly

We are.

Deputy Fleming

Has the agency revoked licences in this area? Dr. Kelly said that when people do not comply the agency writes to them, meets with them and often threatens legal proceedings. She also said the agency took out an injunction against a particular company. Does the agency — it might be easier to do this — have the authority to revoke the licence of a company that does not comply with the conditions of its licence?

Dr. Kelly

I was asked earlier if the legislation provided the agency with adequate powers. We did not have such powers under the previous EPA Act. We have been given them under the Protection of the Environment Act 2003, although they have not yet been commenced. Currently, we do not have the power to do as the Deputy suggests but we will have such power when its is commenced under the Act.

Deputy Fleming

How does the agency reconcile the polluter pays principle and the damage caused by some of these people with the €1,500 fine? I know the agency does not set the fine but there is an absolute inconsistency in that regard. Clearly, the polluter does not pay.

Dr. Kelly

The court generally requires remediation as well. The fine is one issue and remediation is another. I am aware of a situation involving an oil spillage. The company concerned had to pay more than €1 million to remediate. That is a case of the polluter pays principle.

Deputy Fleming

Dr. Kelly previously spoke of the segregation of waste in local authority collections. How can she say that when many local authorities have privatised waste collection facilities? In many cases, local authorities have no role in waste collections. The local authority in my area privatised this aspect and it has not had a bin lorry or collection facility in 15 years. How can we speak of segregating waste in local authority collections when the local authority has no role in this area?

Dr. Kelly

The local authority still retains the permitting of the private collector and can require them to segregate waste. I spoke to somebody in a local authority who told me they are going to attach certain conditions to permits when they come up for review.

Chairman

A professor in geology has raised questions on the manner in which the €5 million investigation at Askeaton was carried out. Does the agency stand over its report in that regard? The professor raised his concerns when he noted the investigation did not test for the presence of uranium in the soil. It is a heavy metal that, in large amounts, can be toxic. That aspect was not incorporated in the investigation carried out by the EPA. We have received a great deal of correspondence from the Askeaton group on how the inquiry was carried out and the role of the EPA in the investigation.

Dr. Kelly

The investigation into the animal deaths in Askeaton was the most rigorous, scientific investigation ever carried out in the State or in many other countries. We stand over the findings of our report. The geologist concerned also wrote to us on the subject. The occurrence of uranium in soil depends on the type of soil present. We referred the matter to Teagasc who carried out the soil surveys in the investigation. Teagasc has informed us that because there was no black shale in the soil in the area there was no need to test for uranium. The soil in the area is derived from limestone which does not contain uranium. In that regard, this is not a material issue.

Chairman

Is the agency surprised that a geologist has brought this information into the public domain?

Dr. Kelly

We regularly receive correspondence like that and, in general, we are able to answer the query raised.

Chairman

It is surprising, given that almost €5 million was spent on this investigation, that all necessary tests were not carried out.

Dr. Kelly

Where would one stop if that were the case? No investigation can test for everything.

Chairman

Is the agency happy with its report?

Dr. Kelly

We are very happy with our report and stand over its conclusions.

Chairman

I thank the witnesses and the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Purcell, for attending today. Is the account agreed? Agreed. We will meet next week to discuss the 2002 annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts: Environment and Local Government — Vote 25, Chapter 6.1, Urban and Village Renewal, and Chapter 6.2, Financial Difficulties in Kilkenny County Council.

The witnesses withdrew.

The committee adjourned at 2.25 p.m. until11 a.m. on Thursday, 29 January 2004.