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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 19 Oct 2006

2005 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts.

Mr. J. Purcell (An tArd Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) called and examined.

Vote 30 — Communications, Marine and Natural Resources.
Chapter 9.1 — Irish National Seabed Survey
Chapter 9.2 — Payments to the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland.
Mr. B. Touhy (Secretary General of the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources) called and examined.

We will also discuss the 2005 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts: Vote 30 — Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, specifically chapter 9.1 — Irish national seabed survey and chapter 9.2 — payments to the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland.

Witnesses should be aware that they do not enjoy absolute privilege. The attention of members and witnesses is drawn to the fact that, as and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997 grants certain rights to persons identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. These rights include: the right to give evidence; the right to produce or send documents to the committee; the right to appear before the committee, either in person or through a representative; the right to make a written and oral submission; the right to request the committee to direct the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents; and the right to cross-examine witnesses. Persons being invited before the committee are made aware of these rights and any persons identified in the course of the proceedings who are not present may have to be made aware of these rights and provided with a transcript of the relevant part of the committee's proceedings if the committee considers it appropriate in the interests of justice.

Notwithstanding this provision in the legislation, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, either by name or in any such way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 156 that the committee shall also refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policy or policies.

There is some relevant correspondence regarding Media Lab Europe. I call on Mr. Brendan Tuohy to introduce his officials.

Mr. Brendan Tuohy

I am accompanied by Dr. Peadar McArdle, the director of the Geological Survey of Ireland, GSI; Ms Susan McCarthy, on the finance side in the Department; Mr. Kevin O'Brien, the principal officer in the broadcasting division; Mr. Keon Verbruggen, principal geologist with the GSI; Mr. Shane Carton of the finance unit; Ms Lisa Keyes, who is in our own finance unit; Mr. Pat Ringland of the Department of Finance and Mr. David Denny of the Department of Finance.

I call Mr. Purcell to introduce Vote 30.

Mr. J. Purcell

Chapters 9.1 and 9.2 read:

9.1 Irish National Seabed Survey

Background

A number of limited seabed studies have been carried out over the years including a survey commissioned by the Petroleum Affairs Division (PAD) of the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources (DCMNR) in 1995/6. The PAD survey covered an area of 231,000 sq km. These studies produced fragmented information on the Irish seabed area.

In April 1999 the Government approved a proposal to undertake a complete survey of the entire Irish seabed at a cost of €26.3m over a period of 7 years. The memorandum submitted stated that Ireland claimed an area of greater than 850,000 sq km. Overall responsibility for the management and direction of the survey, named the Irish National Seabed Survey (INSS), was assigned to the Geological Survey of Ireland (GSI). The INSS project ceased at the end of 2005. As the survey work completed did not cover the whole of the Irish seabed area, the Government, in November 2005, adopted as national policy, a new programme entitled Integrated Mapping for the Sustainable Development of Ireland's Marine Resource (INFOMAR), designed to complete the seabed survey. INFOMAR is expected to take a further 20 years and the cost was estimated in 2005 by DCMNR to be €80m.

Cost

The revised approved INSS budget was set at €33m. Total expenditure on the project amounted to €34.4m as detailed in Table 35.

Table 35 INSS Expenditure 1999-2005 (€,000)

1999

2000

2001

2002

2003

2004

2005

Total

GSI

74

5,547

9,581

2,572

2,013

835

835

21,457

Marine Institute

nil

nil

nil

2,390

3,429

3,679

3,405

12,903

Total

74

5,547

9,581

4,962

5,442

4,514

4,240

34,360

The main components of GSI expenditure were survey work contract payments, consultancy and IT equipment while Marine Institute (MI) expenditure mainly comprised operating costs of 2 research vessels and equipment.

Project Monitoring

A Steering Group had responsibility for the direction and monitoring of the project. It comprised representatives of the Departments of Public Enterprise (DPE), Marine and Natural Resources, Finance, GSI and the MI. It met regularly and considered project progress reports and financial updates. In September 2003, some time after the transfer of DPE functions to DCMNR and internal re-organisation within DCMNR, meetings of the Steering Group ceased. Subsequently, the project and future strategy, as outlined in INFOMAR, were handled by a committee consisting of representatives of DCMNR, GSI and MI.

A Seabed Advisory Committee comprising representatives of various Government Departments together with representatives of MI, GSI, National University of Ireland (Galway) and University College Dublin was also established in June 1999 to provide technical advice.

A memorandum of understanding, signed in 2000, confirmed GSI's responsibility for achieving the deliverables of the project while MI was to play a key role in supporting the sustainable development of Ireland's marine resources.

Following Government approval, scientific and management consultants were engaged in 1999.

Map of Zones

For map, please refer to debate on website at www.oireachtas.ie

Project Revision

Soon after the project started the Steering Group decided to postpone for at least a year any decision to undertake surveying in Zone 1.

GSI records of August 2001, while acknowledging that the memorandum to Government envisaged the survey covering the entire Irish seabed, state that it soon became obvious that this was not feasible. The major reason given was that shipboard surveying in shallow waters would be prohibitively expensive.

The scientific consultants also warned that the cost of surveying Zone 2 would be considerably higher than had been originally envisaged in the submission to Government. They advised in December 1999 that a total survey of the Irish seabed, on which the original Government decision was based, could not be achieved within the allocated funding. It therefore became necessary to prioritise survey work within Zone 2 as work on all of the Zone could not be completed. The Steering Group did not revert to Government with this new information despite its consequences for the scope of the project.

Ultimately, 12.6% of Zone 1, 22% of Zone 2 and 96% of Zone 3 were surveyed under INSS.

The Accounting Officer informed me that the area surveyed totalled 453,046 sq. kms. This figure includes a 10% overlap within the originally surveyed PAD area for harmonisation purposes.

In relation to the decisions to exclude most of Zone 1 and some of Zone 2 from the survey, he stated that the key issue was whether or not the inshore area (Zone 1) was an integral part of INSS. If it was, then the cost and timescale of the project were seriously underestimated. He stated that it is the GSI view that Zone 1 was never intended to be surveyed as part of INSS. He did however, state that the 1999 Government memorandum and supporting documents were not explicit on this and that there had evidently been a lack of clarity in the language used to describe the area to be surveyed. However, the 2005 Government memorandum states that the Government agreed in 1999 that the State should undertake a comprehensive survey of the Irish seabed from the shore out.

He stated that the Steering Group met both sets of consultants in November 1999 and, inter alia, concluded that the inclusion of the nearshore area in INSS would be considered at a later stage. A few days later the Steering Group decided that the extent of surveying in 0-50 metres water depths would be determined after the end of year 1. In his view the straightforward conclusion from this was that the inshore Zone 1 was excluded from INSS until it was decided to the contrary.

He stated that the underestimation of costs in Zone 2 was another factor in the change in direction of the project. The Government memorandum itself had specified the need to undertake a detailed design and planning exercise and it was precisely this exercise that highlighted the need for significantly greater line density in Zone 2 – the major factor in increasing costs over those estimated in the memorandum. The lack of experience of this pioneering survey technology was fully anticipated and acknowledged in the memorandum. It was, of course, realised that surveying costs per unit area would increase with decreasing water depth. But the relationship between cost and water depth was not a simple linear one. The scientific consultants could not resolve the large difference between their relatively high costs of surveying in Zone 2 and those estimated for the original memorandum to Government. The Accounting Officer also informed me that some coverage of Zone 1 did occur (i.e. Shannon, Cork, Dublin, Clew, Killala, Mulroy Bays, Dún Laoghaire and Killary Harbours as well as inshore areas in the Irish Sea) that reduced coverage in Zone 2.

He felt it was unfair to criticise the project management for responsibly reacting to the best available international design advice and taking the opportunistic course of action, through the Steering Group, to cut its cloth according to measure. While the Steering Group did not revert to Government with these significant changes to INSS, GSI understood that reports were tabled at Cabinet along with a briefing outlining the main strategic changes. He stated that it was not seen as prudent to seek additional funding in advance of demonstrating some real success in managing the available resources.

He was of the opinion that the planning of the project was comprehensive and properly conducted. A seabed mapping project on this scale had not previously been attempted anywhere worldwide.

He stated that current thinking was that it would be preferable to complete INFOMAR by the end of 2013, which would correspond with the end of the forthcoming National Development Plan. As a result, the period for completing the overall seabed work would be considerably shortened. The final decision will be one for Government.

Procurement

GSI awarded a contract for survey work in Zone 3 for an amount of €10.3m in June 2000.

In September 2001, GSI agreed to retrospectively pay the company an amount of €635,000 in respect of additional survey work carried out in 2000 and 2001, but not previously notified. This work was carried out in Zones 1 and 2 en route to Zone 3, in which location the company's work under the contract was exclusively based. No details of the basis for the computation of the amount were retained.

I queried the basis on which this payment was made. In reply the Accounting Officer informed me that an amendment to the contract provided for additional payment in respect of surveying in parts of Zone 3 and the adjacent areas of Zones 1 and 2. The invoiced cost was calculated using the rates and prices set out in the contract. He acknowledged that the results of the work had not been initially notified. However, GSI had assured him that the work was properly authorised, that it was satisfied payment was justified and that comprehensive and satisfactory work results were subsequently lodged.

Project Management

The Department noted a deteriorating relationship between GSI and MI, evident at strategy, policy and operational levels in the course of the INSS project. It was of the opinion that both project credibility and value for money was at risk. Such was the extent of the difficulties that the Department engaged a mediator to advise on a resolution. As a result, a revised memorandum of understanding was agreed between the bodies in 2004 and new administrative arrangements were put in place. These included a new joint working group with a Departmental official acting as observer.

Internal audit reported that project management controls were not in place or were not applied in relation to INSS and also concluded that the suggested governance structure for INFOMAR fell short of best practice for such projects. It recommended that strict budgetary and project management controls be put in place to prevent overruns such as occurred on the INSS project.

The Accounting Officer informed me that GSI INFOMAR expenditures are being managed through the Departmental financial management system which tracks all transactions against assigned budget subheads. Once budgets are set in the system, cost overruns are not permitted. The GSI project manager reviews outturns monthly. There is close coordination with the MI project manager on all operational matters. He also stated that a Steering Committee under the chairmanship of a senior Departmental official, to which the joint MI/GSI project management team reports, will monitor progress on INFOMAR and the achievement of its deliverables to specification and on time.

Conclusion

The INSS project did not succeed in covering a substantial part of the area envisaged and there will be a significant cost to the State to complete a survey of the claimed Irish seabed area. Despite the fact that there was a major change in the scope of the project this was never formally communicated to the Government.

9.2 Payments to the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland

Background

In December 2002 the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources (the Minister) announced that the Government had approved a new framework for public service broadcasting including an increase in the television licence fee from €107 to €150. He indicated that 5% of the net proceeds of the new fee was to be ring fenced as a special broadcasting fund for new, additional, innovative content, from which all free-to-air broadcasters could draw. The Minister said he expected the fund to amount to €8m annually and that legislation would be necessary to give effect to the changes.

The Broadcasting (Funding) Act, 2003, (the Act), was signed into law on 23 December 2003. The Act requires the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland (BCI) to

prepare a scheme or schemes for the funding of grants to support certain television and radio programmes and projects, for example, to improve adult literacy

to submit a scheme or schemes to the Minister for approval

carry out the terms of the scheme.

Section 4(2) of the Act states that

The Minister, with the approval of the Minister for Finance, may pay to the Commission out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas for the purposes of grants under a scheme and any administration of or reasonable expenses relating to a scheme, in respect of each financial year, after the financial year ending on 31 December 2002, an amount being equal to 5 per cent of net receipts in that year in respect of broadcasting licence fees.

It is noteworthy that the Act provides for the preparation and approval of a scheme or schemes to allow BCI to finance particular types of programmes as distinct from the establishment of a fund for the receipt and accumulation of resources from which programmes of the kind specified in the Act might be financed.

The BCI submitted a draft Broadcasting Funding Scheme to the Minister on 8 December 2004 for his approval. In accordance with the provisions of EU Regulations 659/1999 and 794/2004, Ireland notified the European Commission of the draft Scheme on 28 April 2005 to ensure that the Scheme was compatible with the relevant provisions of the EU treaty. The European Commission replied on 5 October 2005 indicating that it had decided not to raise any objections to the Scheme. The Minister approved the Scheme on 13 October 2005.

Payments totalling €25,858,395 were made to BCI up to 31 December 2005 on foot of Section 4(2) of the Act as follows: 2003 — €8,342,727, 2004 — €8,451,025, 2005 — €9,064,643.

Prior to 13 October 2005, the date on which the Minister formally approved the Scheme, a total of €23,366,806 was paid by the Department to BCI relying on Section 4(2) of the Act for authority to make payment.

No payments were made by BCI to programme makers under the terms of the Scheme by 31 December 2005.

Audit Concerns

I was concerned that there was no legal basis for payments made from the Vote to BCI prior to the formal approval of a scheme by the Minister on 13 October 2005. I was also concerned as to why payments continued to be made to BCI subsequent to the Minister's approval of a scheme in view of the accumulated surplus on hands and available to BCI. I sought the views of the Accounting Officer on these matters.

Accounting Officer's Response

The Accounting Officer informed me that the Department had interpreted the Broadcasting Funding Act, 2003 on the basis that, on its enactment, it provided for the immediate establishment of a Broadcasting Fund to which 5 per cent of net receipts from television licence fees would be paid each year. He stated that the Department was of the opinion that the intent of the Bill, introduced to give effect to the Government decision to establish the Fund, was for the immediate establishment of a Fund while a scheme or schemes were being developed. He also stated that, if the Department had not paid these amounts to the BCI in respect of the Fund, the Department would have been required by law to pay these moneys to RTÉ in accordance with Section 8(a) of the Broadcasting Authority (Amendment) Act 1976. In arriving at this opinion, the Department considered the Broadcasting (Funding) Act 2003 and associated papers that were prepared in advance of the drafting of the Bill.

He also felt that the fact that the legislation, which was only enacted in late December 2003, provided that 5 per cent of the net proceeds of television licence fees for 2003 could be paid into the Fund underpinned the Department's interpretation of the legislation. He felt it was evident that a scheme could not have been developed by BCI, cleared with the EU Commission and approved by the Minister in the remaining days of 2003.

In summary, he stated that the Department was of the view that the Broadcasting (Funding) Act 2003 established a Broadcasting Fund to which 5 per cent of the licence fee would be allocated year on year from 2003 onwards and that this Fund would be accessed by a scheme or schemes to be developed by BCI. The Department had interpreted the legislation as providing that payments should be made to the Fund in the period leading up to the approval of the first scheme and that payments would also continue in any future period where a scheme had been withdrawn and a new scheme was being developed.

He informed me that, following initial queries raised by my Office in relation to this interpretation of the Act earlier in the year, legal advice was sought. The advice received appeared to cast doubt on the Department's interpretation of the Act and also suggested that the provisions of the Act dealing with the payment of moneys were not as detailed as they might have been. The Accounting Officer concluded by saying that the matter was being reconsidered in consultation with the Department of Finance.

On Chapter 9.1, the Irish National Seabed Survey was the name given to the body of work to be undertaken involving a complete survey of the seabed claimed by Ireland, an area comprising approximately 850,000 sq. km. The Government approved the carrying out of this work in 1999. At the time it was envisaged that the survey would take seven years to complete at a cost of €26.3 million. This budget was later revised to €33 million to take account of inflation and some changes to the specified work. When the seven years had elapsed in 2005, expenditure on the project amounted to €34.4 million but much of the work envisaged in the memorandum for the Government had not been performed. While practically all the deep-water areas had been surveyed there was much less coverage of the inshore areas and the areas where water depths ranged from 50 m to 200 m — the so-called zone 2.

In 2005, a new programme was approved by the Government to build on the earlier survey, with particular emphasis on surveying the inshore areas as a priority and with later work concentrating on the general area to the south and west of Ireland that had not been surveyed. There was a 20-year timeframe for the new programme, at an ongoing cost of €4 million per annum. However, Government approval was only sought and given for the first three years of the programme. The programme is to be reviewed at the end of that period and the Minister is to revert to the Government early in 2008 in respect of its future and the commitment of any further funds.

Clearly, undertaking a survey of the Irish seabed is of strategic national importance and has significant potential long-term benefits. However, I did have some audit concerns, which centred on the lack of clarity of the scope of the original project, as put before the Government, the effectiveness of the organisational arrangements for managing the project and certain aspects of the way in which the main survey contract for over €10 million was handled. Let me address these points in turn.

While the 1999 memorandum for Government envisaged the survey covering the entire seabed claimed by Ireland, it soon became obvious that this was not feasible given the allocated funding. The main reason was that shipboard surveying in shallow waters would be prohibitively expensive. It was also the case that the cost of surveying in zone 2 would be considerably higher than estimated. Hence, the decision was taken to focus the work on the deep-water areas. This material change in the scope of the project was not brought to the Government to enable it to reconsider its commitment to the revised project.

The Geological Survey of Ireland had overall responsibility for managing the project with the support of the Marine Institute. However, over time the role of the institute assumed greater importance and this seemed to lead to tensions between the two organisations at operational level which were jeopardising the attainment of the objectives of the project. The difficulties were eventually resolved in 2004 with the help of a mediator.

My principal concern over the main contract was that a retrospective sum of €635,000 was paid to the company for additional survey work carried out that was not provided for in the original contract. This work was carried out en route to the deepwater areas, where the company’s work under the contract was exclusively based. I am assured that this additional survey work was appropriate to the project and the contract was later amended, but it seems to be an odd way of planning and managing a substantial public contract.

Turning to Chapter 9.2, I cast doubt on the legality of payments to the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland from the net proceeds of the licence fee in advance of the Minister's approval of the scheme to provide grants to independent programme-makers. The Minister had to get EU clearance and did not approve the scheme until 13 October 2005, at which time some €23 million had already been paid over to the commission. While the intention of the new policy was to set aside 5% of the net proceeds of the licence fee for this purpose, the governing legislation, as enacted, seemed to indicate that a scheme would need to be in place before any such payments to the commission could be made.

The Department contacted the Office of the Attorney General on foot of our inquiries and, in short, it seemed to agree with our interpretation. As I understand it, proposals are currently being drafted to address the issue by way of amending legislation. In view of the uncertainty regarding the legal basis for the payments to the commission, I qualified my audit certificate on the Vote account on grounds of regularity.

One of the effects of the way the governing Act was interpreted was that the commission accumulated nearly €26 million under the arrangements over a two-year period. It did not start issuing grants under the scheme until 2006. In this connection, I see the Department of Finance has expressed its concern over the level of the surplus and how it might be dealt with.

I call Mr. Tuohy to make his opening statement.

Mr. Tuohy

The Comptroller and Auditor General, in his annual report for 2005, raised a number of issues relating to the management of the Irish National Seabed Survey, INNS, which was carried out between 1999 and 2005. In 1999, the Government approved a proposal to undertake a survey of the Irish seabed at a cost of €26.3 million over a period of seven years. Overall responsibility for the management and direction of the survey was assigned to the Geological Survey of Ireland. Ireland has approximately 14% of European water and, as very little of that area had been mapped, the project had great strategic importance. It was also pioneering in a global and technological sense and it was not without its unknown challenges.

Included in the memorandum for Government of 1999 was a commitment to establish a seabed advisory committee, with international expertise being made available to it so as to provide technical advice to the project. This was established in June 1999. A steering group comprising the former Department of Public Enterprise, which dealt with the Geological Survey of Ireland, the former Department of the Marine and Natural Resources, the Department of Finance, the Geological Survey of Ireland and the Marine Institute was established to oversee the project. The membership changed after September 2003.

Before addressing some of the specific issues raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General, it might be helpful to clarify the various figures used in the report as they refer to different areas and percentages. For ease of reference, I will circulate to the members a set of maps showing exactly what is referred to in the figures. I have rounded the area numbers to the nearest 1,000 sq. km.

Figure 1 shows the Irish designated area, an area of 652,000 sq. km., which was defined in SI 92 of 1993. To illustrate the scale and concept of the project, the total area of the island of Ireland amounts to approximately 84,000 sq. km.

What is the total land area of Ireland in kilometres? It used to be 32,000 sq. m.

Mr. Tuohy

The total land area of the island of Ireland is 84,000 sq. km.

The sea area is larger.

Mr. Tuohy

It is about ten times larger. Figure 2 shows the area mapped — 231,000 sq. km. — by the petroleum affairs division, PAD, in 1996 as part of our submission to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, UNCLOS. The planned figure was 304,000 sq. km. I will return to this issue later in the discussion.

This is where matters become slightly more complex. Figure 3 shows the outer zone of the potential continental shelf, known as the aspirational area. Some of this zone may be ours one day. That gives a figure of 865,000 sq. km. When members see some of the other maps I will show later, they will note that the area the PAD surveyed — indicated by the black line on the map — was to determine how far out the continental shelf went.

Figure 4 shows the area mapped — in red — by the Irish national seabed survey, INSS. The total area mapped was approximately 432,000 sq. km. There was a 10% overlap with the 1996 PAD survey. The reason was to align the two areas to make sure the points were correct. The total area mapped by the INSS and the PAD within the Irish designated area, IDA, is, therefore, 527,000 sq. km., equal to 81% of the IDA. The PAD went outside this area in its survey. What we were dealing with was the area within the IDA. This leaves an area to be surveyed of 125,000 sq. km.

Figure 5 shows the INSS and PAD coverage, minus the overlap areas at 642,000 sq. km. of the total Irish designated area, plus the aspirational area. This is how the Comptroller and Auditor General got the figure of 87%. In the submission to the Government the contention of the GSI and the Department was that the 865,000 sq. km. amounted to the aspirational area; it was never going to be the size of the area we would map. I will return to this point.

The overall area to be mapped by the INSS was broken into three zones: zone 1 — with depths of 0 m to 50 m and a total area of approximately 17,000 sq. km.; zone 2 — with depths of 50 m to 200 m and a total area of approximately 122,000 sq. km., and zone 3 — with depths of 200 m to 3,000 m and a total area of approximately 414,000 sq. km. One of the issues that arises when one is measuring at that depth is that the greater the depth, the greater the area one covers with one pass. One can see the figures. The average coverage per day for abyssal depth surveys at between 4,000 m and 4,500 m is 300 sq. km. For continental shelf surveys between 100 m. and 200 m, the average coverage per day is about 80 sq. km. For inshore surveys between 10 m and 50 m, the average coverage per day is about 10 sq. km. This is why the costs vary so much between the different areas.

I will now deal with a number of specific issues raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General. While the memo for the Government in 1999 referred to an area of 850,000 sq. km., that is, the outer limit of the potential continental shelf or the aspirational area plus the Irish designated area, the GSI is adamant that the survey, as envisaged by it, would not have extended beyond the IDA, nor would it have overlapped the 1996 survey by the PAD — except by 10% — nor would it have covered zone 1, up to 50 m. This is clear from the work of the seabed advisory committee. We used the Canadian Centre for Marine Communications, CCMC, which stated in its 1999 report: "The inshore boundary is demarked by the 50 metre bathymetric contour". Published documents issued by the GSI also refer to this area and we have made them available to the committee. They are the various documents published by the Department and the GSI. It is clear from them that this is what was envisaged. The total area surveyed by the INSS, exclusive of the PAD work, is summarised in the table shown on the slide and in the presentation documents. I will refer to the percentage surveys. For zone 3, the deeper areas, the figure is 96%; for zone 2, it is 22% and for zone 1, 12.6%. This gives a total area surveyed of 432,105 sq. km.

The second point raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General concerns the underestimation in the cost of surveying zone 2. In the original memo for the Government, it was accepted that this project was pioneering in its scale and the technologies that would be used. This was new for everybody involved. It was different from the 1996 survey in that the INSS not only acquired bathymetric data but also magnetic, gravity and sub-bottom data. Providing for the necessary quality of data in shallower water required that the traverses be closer together. As a consequence, the actual kilometres travelled were much greater for the same coverage, as shown in figure 6. In 2003 an independent international value-for-money audit of the main contract concluded that the INSS represented "very good value for money". For example, in comparison with a survey of the Scotian shelf in Canada around the same time, the INSS cost of €92 per linear km compared most favourably to the Canadian one of €138 per linear km., even though the INSS had also collected magnetic and gravity data in addition to bathymetric data.

The total cost of the project exceeded the estimated cost for a number of reasons, including the requirement for closer traverses to achieve the required quality of data in zone 2 and the requirement to pay higher levels of VAT than originally planned. It was originally envisaged that VAT would not be payable on the areas being done offshore but, subsequently, in discussions with the Department of Finance, it was agreed that VAT would be paid. This raised the figure from the original calculation. In addition, there were inflation costs during the life of the project.

Regarding procurement, an issue was raised in regard to an additional sum of €635,000 paid to the main contractor. An amendment to the specific contract provided for the payment of additional amounts for work carried out at the same rates to cater for areas with water depths less than 200 m. In other words, the contract was for zone 3, areas more than 200 m. in depth, although some turned out to be less than this. The cost was also affected by the provision of additional information for zones 1 and 2 on transit lines. As the ship was travelling out, it was collecting data along on the way. We, therefore, extended the contract to pick up this information at the same rates.

The Government decision in November 1999 to proceed with the Irish national seabed survey was very much a strategic one to collect data. This information was to be made available to businesses and the public. Because of the scale of the project and the pioneering use of new technologies, the Government mandated the establishment of a seabed advisory committee which helped the steering committee to deal with the complex challenges faced in implementing the Government decision. Despite significant challenges, a total of 526,637 sq. km., or 81% of the Irish designated area, has now been surveyed in the INSS and PAD surveys and the Government has committed itself to a new programme, INFOMAR, to survey the remainder in the coming years. The area remaining to be surveyed is 125,363 sq. km.

There have been significant benefits from the use of data from the survey. It is envisaged that the data will help form the basis of future marine strategy. We have prepared a slide show of three slides relating to it. On the first slide, members can see the three new areas. The black dotted line denotes the current Irish designated area and members can see that it also cuts in around the inner yellow box. That was the first Irish designated area.

The area denoted as A1 is a new area on which we have had discussions with the British. We have received approval and have reached agreement with the British. We have entered discussions at UN level with the Faroe Islands, Denmark and Iceland as to its ownership. The area consists of 147,375 sq. km. As I noted earlier, the area of this island comes to 84,000 sq. km. This new area is almost twice the size of the island. We are engaged in discussions at international level to ascertain whether we can extend our continental shelf out there. We are positive that while we may not get the whole amount, we will get a significant amount of it.

The next area, denoted as B1, is known as the Porcupine Abyss. It is an area of 56,000 sq. km, again almost the size of the island of Ireland. We have put in a claim for it and no one is arguing with us about it. We must simply prove that the continental shelf extends that far. We are fairly confident that we will get a decision in this regard within the next 12 months. This will constitute a significant addition to the country in that sense.

The third area, denoted as C1, is an area of approximately 27,000 sq. km. We have agreed with the French, British and Spanish that if we can achieve delineation of its outer line, we will split it between us. We are in the process of making a joint submission in this regard. Again, we are quietly confident — if there is such a thing as confidence in this regard — that we will avail of some of this area as well.

I wish to explain again part of what we have been doing with the mapping. This is unknown territory, some of which is 3 km. to 4 km. deep. I would like to show members a fly-through of the area using three-dimensional, rather than two-dimensional mapping. We have prepared a short demonstration to provide members with a feel for the scale of what is under discussion.

This is probably the first time that the Committee of Public Accounts has been taken into the outer realms.

This is going under water rather than into space.

Mr. Tuohy

When we started this survey, we knew more about what was on Mars than we did about what was off the Irish coast. This is the present level of information.

The demonstration needs a soundtrack.

Mr. Tuohy

One can get a feel for the scale of the thing that one does not get when showing a two-dimensional map.

The red area is the area that was mapped and surveyed. Members can see that it extends out to the edges and out to the Porcupine Shelf. The grey area is the area not mapped in zone 1. This image shows the area we talked about using the other maps, establishing the level of the continental shelf. A series of equations is used by the UN to ascertain how much further one can go from that. This effectively establishes new territory for us.

Has the demonstration concluded?

Mr. Tuohy

Yes.

May we publish Mr. Tuohy's statement and as many of the visual displays as are available for printing?

Mr. Tuohy

Yes. We can also make them available electronically if anyone wants them.

Will Mr. Tuohy make his statement regarding the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland?

Mr. Tuohy

I will briefly outline the background to and context of the scheme in question. In December 2002, the Government increased the licence fee for RTE by approximately 40%. It announced simultaneously that a new scheme would be established after legislation was enacted to take 5% of the total licence fee and make it available to others. This would be part of a broader initiative to increase the amount of innovative content by independent producers in Ireland. Subsequently, legislation was enacted in December 2003 to provide the legislative basis for the scheme.

The objective of the scheme is to improve the range and quality of programmes available to television and radio audiences in Ireland, and it focuses on programmes relating to our culture, heritage and experience. The remit of the scheme is therefore quite broad. In particular, the present scheme, known as the sound and vision scheme, is available for new programmes in a range of areas. These include history, historical buildings, natural environment, folk, rural and vernacular heritage, traditional and contemporary arts, Irish language and the Irish experience in European and international contexts. The scheme also provides for new programmes to improve adult literacy and for additional Irish-language programming.

It is an objective of the scheme that the programming supported should be available to a wide audience. In the case of television programmes funded through the scheme, with the important exception of community broadcasting, it is a condition of the scheme that the programmes must be broadcast on a free television service that provides near universal coverage.

Turning to radio, it is recognised that the three pillars of the radio sector, namely, national, local and community, all have the potential to deliver to the audience the type of programming envisaged by the scheme. Accordingly, in the case of radio programmes funded under the scheme, they may be broadcast on any service licensed by the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland or on an RTE radio service.

I now wish to turn to the issues raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General in his report on the scheme. The Department had been clear that the 2003 Act provided for the establishment of a broadcasting fund into which an annual amount equivalent to 5% of the net proceeds of television licence fee receipts would be paid. The Act specifically referred to these payments relating to the financial years after 31 December 2002.

The Department has interpreted the Broadcasting (Funding) Act 2003 to mean that on its enactment, it provided for the immediate establishment of a broadcasting fund. Therefore, starting with the year 2003, 5% of net receipts from television licence fees would be paid into the fund each year. Such funds would then be accessed through a scheme or schemes developed by the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland and approved by the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources.

The Department is clear that the intent of the Bill introduced was to give effect to a Government decision for the immediate establishment of a fund while a scheme or schemes was being developed. Accordingly, the Department made payments to the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland of a sum equal to 5% of the net proceeds of annual television licence fees. This has been done since the financial year 2003.

The reasoning for the Department's interpretation is quite straightforward. The Department worked on the basis that the legislation had been drafted on foot of a Government decision and the clear instruction given by the Department that the legislation was to provide for the immediate establishment of a "fund". In consequence, 5% of the licence fee was transferred to the BCI in December 2003 and again in December 2004 on the basis that a fund had been established by legislation. The formal scheme was not approved by the Minister until October 2005, after clearance by the European Commission. This is now the scheme in place.

The Department's interpretation of the Broadcasting Funding Act 2003 was called into question when the Office of Comptroller and Auditor General initially raised this issue orally during a routine audit. The Department subsequently sought legal advice from the Office of the Attorney General on the issue raised. In light of the comments by the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General and for the sake of absolute clarity in respect of the payment of moneys, it is now proposed to amend the Broadcasting Funding Act 2003 to cover the concerns raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General. The Department is currently considering how this could best be addressed in the context of the upcoming Broadcasting Bill. Accordingly, drafting of a suitable provision for inclusion in the Bill is being prepared. The provision will be modelled on other similar but established funds. We will continue close liaison with the Department of Finance and the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel on the drafting of this resolution.

I welcome the concerns raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General in this regard and I trust that the amendments will deal adequately with the concerns he may have so that the Broadcasting Funding Act 2003 can continue to support innovative independent broadcasting.

The committee also wishes to publish this statement.

Mr. Tuohy

I have no problem with that.

The Comptroller and Auditor General raised a number of issues relating to the seabed survey. I will return to the start of the matter in 1999. Can Mr. Tuohy tell us how much has been spent on the survey to date?

Mr. Tuohy

The Comptroller and Auditor General's report states that it is €34.3 million.

Can Mr. Tuohy tell us the initial reason for conducting the survey?

Mr. Tuohy

A survey was carried out in 1996 by the petroleum affairs division of the Department as part of the preparations for the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. This was an effort to establish the extent of our continental shelf so that we could make a claim which I outlined in the final slide today and which we have subsequently done.

That was the initial purpose.

Mr. Tuohy

That was the 1996 survey, which was undertaken to establish matters such as the outer limits. As I stated previously, technical issues arise here. To back-fill on that, the idea was to see whether if we own this area, we should establish what is in it. Therefore, the Irish National Seabed Survey was undertaken to establish those areas to the outer Irish designated area but not to go beyond it. This is the issue that has arisen, namely, including the aspiration area.

In his statement, Mr. Tuohy stated that the project has considerable strategic importance.

Mr. Tuohy

We are talking about applying to extend the national territory.

In respect of the value of that——

Mr. Tuohy

The value?

Suppose we get part of A 1 and all of B 1 and C 1? Mr. Tuohy stated that it is envisaged that the data will help form the basis of a future marine strategy.

Mr. Tuohy

There are two things on it, the first being the establishment of a massive area. If we received the three areas referred to by Deputy Deasy, which encompass 231,000 sq. km., which is almost three and a half times——

That is fine.

Mr. Tuohy

The second issue relates to what is in this area in the sense that we would then have ownership of the areas outside the exclusive economic zone. We would own everything — the water column and everything in between it — up to that area. Outside that area, we would own the sea bed, any hydrocarbons found on it and any other minerals and other deposits. The EU is just beginning the drafting of an EU Green Paper on marine affairs. We might have only 1% of the population of Europe but we have 14% of the sea area of Europe. In that sense, we are a major player.

We are at the seven-year mark. It was initially proposed that we would have finished this by now. How has the State benefited in the past seven years, given the tens of millions of euro we have already spent?

Mr. Tuohy

We spent €33 million. If one takes the two surveys together, we have sent the claims to the UN. I expect a positive result in respect of the first claim, which relates to B 1, within the next 12 months. In respect of the second claim, which relates to C 1, we have an agreement with our continental partners to produce a joint submission. In respect of the third claim, which relates to A 1, we have reached agreement with the UK and are in discussions. We may not get everything in it but we will be somewhat successful in this area.

What has happened already on the provision of the information we are discussing relates to endeavouring to discover what is out there. Members can see issues like the geological structures out there about which we were previously unaware and the potential to make them available for prospecting companies to explore. This will be very interesting.

What have been the tangible benefits since 1999?

Mr. Tuohy

This has been made available. That information has been published and there is a demand for it from the companies. In respect of fishing, members might have witnessed some of the developments during the year, which related to the cold-water corals that are out there and the type of fish they attract. We are obtaining an awareness of what is out there. The problem is that this is frontier-type research. We now have obtained previously unavailable data and approximately 50 people are engaged in PhDs and post-doctoral degrees in this area. The first thing to do is to produce the data and the second is to make it available. This has been very helpful from the perspective of matters such as energy, renewables and offshore affairs. Members will be aware that we have received a number of applications for offshore wind farms, which would not have been possible without some of the data we have provided on this.

We have legal obligations with regard to dumping at sea and safety of ships. Some of the material was made available in places such as Shannon, Clew Bay and other places where we were able to take some of the work which was done and make it available to amend the charts. One of the troughs in the north west, off Donegal, has revealed that there is a very low level of water column between the top of the equivalent of the mountains off the coast and the water level. Again, the fishermen did not realise this but they now know about it, which prevents them from losing their nets in the process.

Issues that arise in the medium to longer term are biodiversity and biotechnology. Biotechnology is one of the three pillars of the Irish economy — information and communications technology and bio-farming being the others. There is no question that, in the future, some of this will come from the sea. As a country with 14% of the sea area of Europe, it is one of the few areas where we have a natural competitive advantage.

We had better move on. I thank Mr. Tuohy. The initial estimate in 1999 was €26.3 million over seven years. I understand the figure is now €80 million.

Mr. Tuohy

It relates to the INFOMAR project.

Who put together that initial estimate?

Mr. Tuohy

The initial estimate was put together in the Department under the Geological Survey of Ireland, GSI. Back in 1999, the knowledge of what was out there and the technologies were not available. One did not find the deep-sea explorations that are now ongoing such that relating to Corrib. The show has moved on from then. What was envisaged in the Government memorandum was that this was an estimate and that a working group would be established to drill down into this to see what was available. This was the working group that subsequently delivered the work programme.

That is fine. Mr. Tuohy said that it was done under the GSI but it was very——

Mr. Tuohy

It was also done under the Marine Institute.

They changed their minds very quickly. In particular, subsequent memorandums from the GSI made it clear that it was not feasible to expect this to be done for €26.3 million. The timeline here is extraordinary if one considers that the decision was made in April 1999 and it was very clear by November 1999 that this work could not be carried out with the budget it was allotted. How did this come about when these people put this estimate together in the first place?

Mr. Tuohy

The way in which it was put together was as a submission to the Government within which was a specific recognition of the need for further detailed work. The committee was established when the Government approved the project. I referred to the closer traverses required for some of the detailed information on zone 2. It was clear from almost the first meeting that zone 1 would not be covered; the distance was 50 m. out. The cost would have been greater otherwise.

When did the GSI come to the realisation that zone 1 in particular would be prohibitively expensive?

Mr. Peadar McArdle

There were two issues relating to zones 2 and 1. We had never comprehended zone 1 as part of the survey, but when costs spiralled during the detailed planning in zone 2——

Mr. McArdle stated that zone 1 was never comprehended as being part of the initial estimate.

Mr. McArdle

That is right.

Last night, I investigated the matter via the Internet. When the announcements were made, it was clear that all of the seabed was to be surveyed. Is Mr. McArdle claiming that the GSI did not comprehend this?

Mr. McArdle

We must put our hands up and say that we did not comprehend that zone 1 — zero metres to 50 m. — was part of the survey.

If that was the case, why was the survey presented as being of the entire seabed?

Mr. McArdle

There was no intention to mislead, but the language in the original memo was vague and there were different interpretations.

Did anyone ask what was the position? If something was that vague and so much money was being spent, would someone in the GSI or the Marine Institute not have asked about the situation?

Mr. McArdle

We were working on a different understanding. The Government decided to implement the project and we immediately entered a detailed phase of planning. The matter of zone 1 did not appear on our radar screens at that stage, as we were focused on the challenge of implementing a project that had never been done on this scale anywhere in the world. Immediately, we took the advice of the Canadian experts mentioned by Mr. Tuohy, at which time matters began to change for us because the experts stated that the project would be more expensive in shallower water. The approach was not linear; we contemplated using different systems at different depths.

From the outset, the GSI was under no illusion that the project could be done for the amount of money cited.

Mr. McArdle

That is neither a true nor fair statement. We adopted the spirit of the Government's decision, that is, to undertake a detailed assessment and scoping of what was involved. When that was done, independent experts told us that what we had done previously would not be adequate.

Mr. Tuohy

There was no effort to mislead anyone. It may not have been clear from the——

Fair enough. We must clarify the matter, but no one asked that question.

Mr. Tuohy

Obviously, we have discussed the issue within the Department. The Geological Survey of Ireland is a separate entity within the Department and is not used to receiving memos from the Government on a regular basis. The GSI is not a typical line division.

I do not want to make excuses, but the matter was not clear. Many of the people in the GSI are geologists and had a certain view. According to the published material, the matter became clear after the work was done. To be fair to the people involved, there was no effort to hide anything.

The Comptroller and Auditor General's opening statement notes that "€635,000 was paid to the company for additional survey work carried out that was not provided for in the original contract", which was "an odd way of planning and managing a substantial public contract". Will Mr. Tuohy respond?

Mr. Tuohy

According to the international assessment of the value-for-money audit, the rate in the contract was good. I have given the committee the figures.

Zone 3 was concentrated on, but ships collected data on zones 2 and 1 when they left port and travelled to zone 3. The team examined the information provided and decided that it was of the same quality as the team's own and that it would need the information at some stage. No one disputes what was given in return for the information, but it did not occur to the people drawing up the zone 3 contracts that ships do not just pop up inside it. Rather, they must go through zones 1 and 2.

When given that information, should one turn it down? The contract was extended by the amount in question. The company made subsequent claims for €3.8 million that were defended by the Department and the GSI. As such, the company did not actually get another penny. The money was used to buy something extra at the same rates paid for other information.

Mr. Tuohy made it clear that the initial estimate of €26.3 million was made under the auspices of the GSI. How soon after that did the GSI discover it had low-balled the estimate and was completely off the mark?

Mr. McArdle

In late 1999. We decided to employ the Canadian consultants in April 1999 and they reported in November.

I will turn to the broadcasting section. I take it from Mr. Tuohy's opening statement that he has accepted the Comptroller and Auditor General's point concerning the qualification issue. It is a question of interpretation, as the Department's interpretation of the Act was different from that of the Comptroller and Auditor General, namely, that a scheme should have been established before funding was provided. While I am no expert, the Act is short and relatively easy to understand. How did the Department develop its interpretation? What section states that funding could continue before a scheme is established? I am at a loss as to how that interpretation could be conjured.

Mr. Tuohy

Let us go back in context. The Government made the decision to increase the licence fee by 40%. Part of the package was that 5% of the fee would be made available to independent broadcasters. The law states that the licence fee must go to RTE after we collect it and the Government's decision on the legal side of the matter was clear. We are not parliamentary draftsmen. While I am not passing the buck, lawyers are lawyers. We produce the brief for the lawyers on what we want and it goes through the Houses. Sometimes, even Homer nods. We can all miss something. In this particular matter——

How could the Department interpret the legislation differently from the Comptroller and Auditor General to the effect that funding could continue until or before the scheme was put in place?

Mr. Tuohy

Section 4.2 of the Broadcasting (Funding) Act 2003 states: "The Minister, with the approval of the Minister for Finance, may pay to the Commission out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas for the purposes of grants under a scheme and any administration of or reasonable expenses relating to a scheme, in respect of each financial year, after the financial year ending on 31 December 2002, an amount being equal to 5 per cent of net receipts".

To repeat, it states: "Moneys provided by the Oireachtas for the purposes of grants under a scheme". How could one give grants under a scheme before the scheme has been established?

Mr. Tuohy

The date was specific. The provision to make 5% of the funding available was to commence in 2003. When the legislation was enacted, the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland produced a scheme and went to the commission for approval in respect of the State aids issue. The Minister approved the scheme in October 2005 within a week or two of the response. If we had not done this, the money would have kept going to RTE for three years. That was not the Government's intention or the function of the Broadcasting (Funding) Act 2003 either. The Long Title of the Act includes the phrase "AN ACT TO PROVIDE THAT THE BROADCASTING COMMISSION OF IRELAND PREPARE A SCHEME OR SCHEMES FOR THE FUNDING OF GRANTS TO SUPPORT CERTAIN TELEVISION AND RADIO PROGRAMMES AND PROJECTS OUT OF AN AMOUNT OF 5 PER CENT".

The dates were specific.

I have already given the dates. There has been a capitulation and an acceptance of the Comptroller and Auditor General's point. Even though I am inexperienced in dealing with legislation, it is clear from reading section 4(2) that the scheme had to be in place before any grant was given.

Mr. Tuohy

No money was paid to individuals until the scheme was in place. The money from the licence fee was held by the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland, BCI, and accumulated over two years. This was the issue raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General. Reading the Official Report of debates as the Act was passed, it is clear that it was the intention of everybody to do so. In the new Bill, we will make an amendment to address this point. We applied the spirit of the law and nothing was hidden on our part. Nobody received money until the scheme was in place and the money was spent as intended.

I wish to refer to the seabed survey. There was a budget of €2 million. Why was it not spent?

Mr. Tuohy

We have not opened that Vote yet. Should I take the question, Chairman?

We opened the Vote but Mr. Tuohy did not deal with it in his introduction. Mr. Tuohy may respond.

Mr. Tuohy

That money was carried forward from last year. A scheme was set up and I appeared before this committee to speak about it. Three marinas and a centre in Kenmare were involved. Marinas are subject to State aid rules and there is a limitation on the type of funding available. There was one in Cahirciveen and one in Kenmare. The latter did not comply with planning regulations. We provided an initial amount but did not provide further funding. An application was made for a marina in Roundstone but the application was withdrawn in June and the company was wound up. The company has come in for discussion recently. The fourth was in Rosses Point. The money was carried forward to this year's Estimate but none of the applications was successful this year. They have not been concluded.

The other part of that question concerns foreshore. There was an underspend of 53% in 2005. We spoke about foreshore licences in this committee previously. Concern was expressed about the delays in administration of foreshore licences, particularly those concerning major infrastructural projects. I refer to major delays in my constituency, Waterford. What is the current status of the seven villages scheme in Waterford?

Mr. Tuohy

There are approximately 700 licences and leases and 200 applications. There has been a phenomenal increase in the number of applications for foreshore licences over the past few years. Some two thirds of the population now live within 10 km. of the coast line. That has put major pressure on our system, as it has on An Bord Pleanála. Staff who deal with the marine are in the process of moving to Clonakilty as part of the decentralisation process, leading to staff turnover.

Following discussions here last year, we are considering a commitment to an immediate response to some of these foreshore applications. We will use external engineers to assist us on some assessments. I accept that some applications in Waterford have been outstanding for more than one year. We have discussed how we might deal with these because they are delaying developments in some areas. I will give Deputy Deasy a commitment to revert to him on this matter within four weeks. With the new decentralised operation the process will be more streamlined. The resources available are limited. In every case there is a process in place and public consultation and technical consultation must be undertaken.

Mr. Tuohy states that he has taken on extra engineers to deal with this. Have any other changes been made?

Mr. Tuohy

Several questions must be considered. How does one deal with the value of foreshore? Should we respond to people who submit applications? How should foreshore be used? If one puts a wind farm there, mineral mining is automatically excluded. Should we put the foreshore out to tender or respond to applications as they are made? New directives regarding habitats and biodiversity apply to foreshore, as do archaeological and heritage concerns. As more of the seabed survey information becomes available, more agencies at EU and national level are taking an interest and restricting us from interfering with it. We seek to restructure the whole area but it will not get any smaller.

Will Mr. Tuohy deal with Vote 30?

Mr. Tuohy

In 2005, the Department's economic remit spanned communications, broadcasting, energy, seafood, maritime safety, maritime transport and natural resources. As a driver of sustainable economic growth across these diverse sectors, the Department makes a key contribution in enhancing productivity and competitiveness in the economy as well as in social policy objectives. Through our activities and expenditure in 2005, we met the challenges within the Department's remit and achieved our objective to promote competitiveness, economic growth and sustainable development in a socially and regionally balanced manner.

The gross outturn in 2005 of €495 million supported critical priorities across the communications, broadcasting, energy, marine safety, seafood, marine research and inland fisheries sectors. We spent some €25 million on marine safety, a function that is now under the Department of Transport. Under subhead C2, €17 million was spent on capital works on the five major fishery harbours. A sum of €23 million was spent on marine research at the Irish Marine Institute. Under subhead E1, €30 million was spent on the operations of Bord Iascaigh Mhara, BIM. Some 22 vessels were approved for decommissioning. Almost €28 million was provided in grant aid to the inland fisheries sector. Salmon is a topical issue at present and we will make proposals arising from the independent salmon review group soon. Some €16 million was spent on energy conservation programmes, as seen in the recent Power of One campaign and in the work of Sustainable Energy Ireland, SEI.

The Department spent €19.4 million on a large number of initiatives in the communications, telecommunications and broadband areas and finally, there is the work we are doing with schools, the Department of Education and Science and the private sector.

On inland fisheries, the outturn was approximately €27.67 million. Several years ago we examined the Central Fisheries Board which, to put it mildly, was a disaster. We also examined the regional boards to determine what was happening, how they were spending money and so forth. Since then a decision has been made to amalgamate all of these bodies into one, to be known as the national inland fisheries authority. Does Mr. Tuohy believe that such an authority will allow for local representation, for example, from the former southern fisheries board on behalf of salmon anglers and so forth? Will such people be represented directly, or how will they be catered for? I am concerned that local knowledge be used to best effect.

There appears to be a phobia about the salmon fisheries but there is massive potential in coarse fishing and sport fishing in the inland waterways which has been all but ignored. The British inland fisheries body is concerned almost exclusively with coarse fishing. We do not seem to be tapping into the tourism potential in that regard.

There does not appear to be any link with off-shore or sea fishing, particularly in the estuaries and in areas off Kinsale, Cobh and so forth. We do not seem to be managing the tourism potential very well, not to mention our own fishing people. Does Mr. Tuohy have any plans to deal with what is happening in that regard?

Mr. Tuohy

I thank Deputy Dennehy. We produced a report last year which recommended the establishment of a national inland fishery authority. That was done following consultation with the various fishery boards and in the context of a number of changes that were coming down the track. The ground-water framework directive refers to catchment areas and the regional authorities as they are today are not aligned with such areas. The focus now is on individual rivers.

The report from the independent salmon commission is due to go to the Government within the next two or three weeks. In that context we are dealing with a very serious issue. In the past five years, the number of salmon allowable has dropped from more than 200,000 to less than 90,000. There has been a 35% drop in the past 12 months alone. The Government is committed to aligning the catches with the scientific advice from next year on. That will mean the end of multi-stock fishing and drift-netting because these methods do not differentiate between the rivers from whence the fish come. While I do not want to pre-empt the report of the independent commission, it will raise such issues, which feed into the broader issues raised by the Deputy.

In many of our rivers there are inadequate numbers of fish. Numbers have fallen below the conservation level. Whether we like it or not, we must allow such rivers to be restocked and the stocks built up. That will mean that it will be tough for those who fish in some areas for several years. Some of the rivers in Deputy Dennehy's area are quite populous and may not be under the same pressure as those in other areas. However, if one examines the situation on a river-by-river basis, one sees that tremendous pressure will be exerted in the next 12 months to get people to stop doing what they are currently doing and put conservation measures in place.

Traditionally, coarse fishing was not popular here because Irish people did not have a tendency to eat coarse fish. However, last year we introduced a bag limit on the number of coarse fish. Many of those engaged in coarse fishing here were non-locals. In some European countries, coarse fishing is seen as a luxury and people from such countries engaged in it here to an enormous extent. As a result, we introduced a bag limit for the first time, which is still in place.

There is a growing realisation that a multi-pronged approach is required. We must deal with the quantity of fish being caught, the quality of the rivers and the source points of pollution. In some cases, the source points of pollution are individual septic tanks. When the report is published Deputies will see that a package of measures will be put in place to deal with these issues from next year on. The commitment is to reach conservation levels from next year. For that to happen, the report must be published before Christmas.

Again, the thinking seems to be totally directed towards salmon but there are five trout anglers for every salmon angler. What of the issue of the restocking of brown trout? That was being done prior to the rod licence row but has not been done since then.

Last night I looked up the database on specimen fish maintained by the national body. There is a fish on that database that the late Mr. Jim Mitchell had never heard of until I brought it up here when the Southern Regional Fisheries Board netted The Lough, in Cork. On the database, specimen carp were listed and eight of the ten caught in Ireland were caught in The Lough. Five years ago the Southern Regional Fisheries Board netted the Lough and took half of the fish out of it. I raised it at the time and a row ensued. For some people it was a bit of a joke, but it is a serious issue for the people involved, both foreign and Irish anglers. However, there seems to be no recognition of other facilities. The focus is almost exclusively on salmon. I urge Mr. Tuohy to pay attention to these other issues. One hopes that the situation will improve. I appreciate what is happening internationally and wish the Department well with the salmon project.

I tabled a parliamentary question to the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources last week asking if he would examine the legal restraints preventing RTE from broadcasting radio and television programmes into the United Kingdom. As part of his reply, the Minister stated that, in light of the recommendations of the task force on emigration, it is proposed to amend the public service remit of RTE and TG4 to allow for the provision and public funding of broadcasting services to Irish communities in Britain. I ask for Mr. Tuohy's response to this. Could some of the broadcasting commission's surplus be used to beef up the facilities for our community in the United Kingdom?

Mr. Tuohy

This issue does not just relate to the United Kingdom, but to the wider world. We have a large diaspora with whom we can communicate and with the technologies available today we do not have to limit that communication to traditional television and radio services. We are currently examining issues such as IPTV, or internet protocol television and web casting. The draft heads of the new Broadcasting Bill have been circulated to the Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources. This is the first time the e-democracy facility has been used and part of the process under way at present is to seek inputs into the Bill. While the report of the emigrant task force dealt primarily with the United Kingdom, we believe the issue is wider than that.

Next year we will begin a pilot project on digital terrestrial television. We hope a reciprocal arrangement, even within the island of Ireland, will emanate from that so that BBC services would be available in the Republic from DTT and RTE in Northern Ireland. TG4 is available in Northern Ireland under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement, but RTE 1 and RTE 2 are not currently available.

The issue to which the Deputy refers is about more than Great Britain. It is a global issue for the Department. We must determine how best we can empower RTE to do this and make programmes available. The fund can be used for any content transmitted through a free-to-air system, and specifically through cable. The Bill may need to be changed to reflect innovations such as internet protocol television, which allows people anywhere in the world to watch or listen to RTE. We support allowing RTE to take advantage of such developments rather than confining it to the Republic or island of Ireland.

I mentioned the fund because it is ring-fenced for special broadcasting and innovative content on all free-to-air systems. I presume there is no legal impediment to using it.

Mr. Tuohy

We can revisit the matter if necessary. The fund comes under a scheme. So as long as the Minister approves, primary legislation is not required to make changes. The fund is somewhat open-ended, although it currently funds only television programmes broadcast on a free television service with nearly universal coverage in the State. Community television is also specifically included and I cannot see anything that would exclude IPTV. We would be more than willing to address any problems identified by the Deputy.

There is significant interest in the UK in the matter.

I find the marine survey fascinating because I had no idea of the extent of the project. While I accept that our remit is on the financial aspect and concur with the Comptroller and Auditor General's criticisms in that regard, I compliment Mr. McArdle and his colleagues in the Geographical Survey of Ireland. The public is probably unaware of its work and it is easy to understand, from Mr. Tuohy's comments on aspirations, how confusion arises within the ranks. With regard to the purchase of Thornton Hall, there was reference to the hope value of the land. Does Mr. Tuohy have any idea of the hope value of the seabed? While I could see obvious benefits in areas such as gas and oil, have we ever tried to estimate the potential value?

Mr. Tuohy

Is the Deputy buying or selling?

Mr. Tuohy is a cute Cork man. Now is the time to copperfasten the work. Why is it more expensive to survey inshore areas than deeper offshore waters?

Mr. Tuohy

A survey conducted at a depth of 4,000 m can cover the relatively large area of several hundred square kilometres. As the depth becomes shallower, the ship has to traverse up and down more.

I understand but most people would consider the depth of water to be a problem.

Mr. Tuohy

Intuitively, one would think it easier to survey shallow waters but it is the exact opposite.

Similarly, the closer a camera is to its subject, the more confined the area of the photograph.

Where besides Canada is similar work being carried out?

Mr. Tuohy

Norway has done similar work on a small scale and several other countries are making use of the Irish experience. Besides the core survey staff, a number of other people were involved and one of the survey ships carried additional staff to investigate cetacean numbers. By starting in deep waters and working with experienced companies, it was possible to build up the capacity and confidence here for such work. The Marine Institute has two ships, the Celtic Voyager and the Celtic Explorer, which can be used for some of the inshore surveys. In a very short period we have captured a great deal of expertise, with approximately 50 doctoral or post-doctoral researchers in possession of raw data unavailable anywhere else.

I understand that NUI Galway is involved in the survey but will the data be made available to other universities, such as UCC?

Mr. Tuohy

Our policy is to make the data freely available for research and educational but not commercial purposes. The data have been distributed through HEAnet and will feature on the leaving certificate physics course for 2007. We want to give young people the opportunity to use state-of-the-art information and feed our findings back into the system.

Are there sufficient staff to process the data, or will the usual complaints be made with regard to needing more resources?

Mr. Tuohy referred to the experience in Donegal. Will the data be made available to shipping companies to improve maritime safety?

Mr. Tuohy

Not only are they being made available but products are also being developed which can take advantage of the data. In the fishing industry, BIM is working with the Department, the Geological Survey of Ireland and the Irish Marine Institute to make links between the seabed and types of fish. We are getting a great deal of new information on matters such as the cold corals I mentioned earlier.

UCC's centre for coastal management and research on Haulbowline, an island with which Deputy Dennehy will be very familiar, is one of the leading institutes in the country on these matters. We are working closely with the institute and other stakeholders in developing a coastal zone strategy — which is closely related to the issue of climate change.

How can this research benefit the fishing industry or oil and gas exploration? Given that the discovery of an oil or gas field would immediately recoup the investment, I am somewhat concerned to hear the data are not being made available to commercial interests.

Mr. Tuohy

The data are available, but they must pay for them.

That is good to know. I thought it was being kept a secret. Has use been made yet of the data?

Mr. Tuohy

There has been an uptake at a number of levels, including exploration and fishing. I remind the Deputy that the information has only become available in recent years. The data primarily contribute to education and third level research. We have done a great deal of work on a marine research strategy which will form part of the Government's forthcoming strategy for science and technological innovation. The marine side will be a key element of any Government research strategy. We do not have a problem with making the information available, either from the website or through HEAnet. A phenomenal five terabytes of data have already been collected.

Mr. Tuohy will have to provide another chart to show the size of that figure. He referred to Haulbowline, where his Department is leading the redevelopment of the Irish Steel site.

Mr. Tuohy

The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is leading the redevelopment but we are intimately involved in the project.

What will the size of the hotel be and how far have the plans advanced?

Mr. Tuohy

The first stage involves completing the clean-up. That has turned out well so far. Our area is the foreshore, and members will be aware that many materials such as heavy metals were deposited there over the years. They must be cleaned out. The potential is to redevelop approximately 40 acres. The naval base will square off and take the area to the left as one crosses the bridge. It will have a dock and a dry dock. The UCC project is at the rear of that in the Lewis Glucksman Marine Facility. The area on the right as one crosses the bridge will be redeveloped. The potential is phenomenal. It is probably one of the nicest harbours in the world. Deputy Dennehy will agree with me. It overlooks Spike Island, Crosshaven and Cobh on the other side. The Government had in mind a mixed-use development.

Has any decision been made on the land link with Spike Island? Would it be from the Ringaskiddy road or from Haulbowline?

Mr. Tuohy

There are two issues. There is talk about a bridge from Haulbowline to Spike Island and about the island being redeveloped as a prison. That is a matter for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. The question is what the ultimate package would look like, and the OPW will also be involved. Everybody accepts that there is great potential for an amazing development there. We want some link to the marine side. The National Maritime College of Ireland, NMCI, is next door by the entrance to the Haulbowline basin. We would have the NMCI, the UCC centre and whatever development is added. To make it pay there would need to be a residential property element but it should not be confined to that. It must have a strong business element, and that is all the more reason it should be around the marine area.

I compliment the GSI staff. I hope they can resolve their financial difficulties along the way.

I hope the Haulbowline development is not despoiled by a toxic waste incinerator. That is another question for a different Department. Mr. Tuohy has already answered most of the questions on the seabed survey. How was the policy decision made to do the outer area first? It would have had implications for the eventual costings. While I can appreciate that the outer area was easier to do and the technology was easier to put in place, I would have thought the inshore information was more necessary and if one were beginning a project of this type, to paraphrase the Kerryman joke, one would not start from here.

Mr. Tuohy

I may have explained some of this earlier but I will go over it again. Because one covers a larger area per day one can get more data——

I understand the technology. Surely the important information is closer to the shore.

Mr. Tuohy

This was new for all of us. We had some information from the 1996 Petroleum Affairs Division, PAD, survey and while that was limited in what it did, we added extra magnetic, gravity and seabed information. The idea was to build up a competence in the area. Another issue was that we could cover a larger area quicker in deep water. We now have an expertise and skill base that we lacked to do the more challenging inshore work. The inshore survey is more challenging owing to the depth and level of detail. We can also produce information for the hydrographic charts. Deputy Boyle's point is that much of this information would be very useful. We did a small amount, approximately 12% to 14% of the inshore area, when we were transiting. I talked about that at the beginning. That information was so impressive that it was immediately used to update the Admiralty charts for places such as Clew Bay, Shannon and Killala in the west.

Mr. Tuohy's presentation includes a paragraph about overall cost increases in the project. He outlines a number of reasons including that he had to return to zone 2, VAT was higher than originally planned and inflation was higher than anticipated. Does Mr. Tuohy mean the ad valorem effect of VAT, namely, that the project costs increased and therefore the VAT increased?

Mr. Tuohy

No, it was originally envisaged that we would not pay VAT while offshore in the same way that ships have certain exemptions. In a subsequent discussion with the Department of Finance it was agreed that this VAT would be paid. The Department of Finance increased the budget accordingly. That was a policy decision by the Department of Finance rather than a cost overrun. Deputy Boyle should remember this was overseen by a standing committee that included the Department of Finance, the then Department of Public Enterprise and the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, the GSI and the Marine Institute. Many of the issues were dealt with by that team. Some of the technical work came out only after the Government had made the decision. After the detailed technical plans came out it was decided that zone 1 was not included and that we would begin with zone 3. I also gave figures for the per-kilometre line data collection for the value-for-money survey done by the Canadians. I put this in much better than the Canadian equivalent.

Why were the inflation figures underestimated? It would have been a period of low inflation. Were there particularly inflationary aspects in the work?

Mr. Tuohy

Inflation has a mixture of elements. The technologies were changing. Salary costs, general inflation issues and energy costs such as steaming time were factors. Before we began this project we knew more about the moon and Mars than we did about a place a few hundred miles off the coast of Ireland. We have much more information now about that. If one examines the NASA figures for space exploration, one can see that this is pioneering work. On balance the potential for extra national territory is phenomenal and that is with the PAD too.

I appreciate that, although I do not think there will be much demand for prospecting rights on Mars or the moon. Before I move to another area, may I ask about the availability of the information and how it will be used commercially? Does this necessitate any change in the Department's policy on future licences for prospecting? If this information is of a high quality and indicates potential, will the Department regard any future licences in a different way as a result?

Mr. Tuohy

Does the Deputy mean exploration or foreshore licences?

Exploration.

Mr. Tuohy

We are already examining the terms for exploration licences. The Minister has been clear on that a number of times and the Government has asked us to examine it. Exploration depends on three broad factors: the return, the prospectivity and the track record. Unfortunately Ireland does not have a good track record on prospectivity compared with Norway or Britain, particularly Norway, where hundreds or thousands of successful wells have been drilled. Ireland has had only four. Exploration is an internationally mobile business. People will go where they get the return. Political stability is no problem here, unlike places such as Africa and South America. Another element is the return. If we begin to have successes, we can then introduce new terms, as other countries have done. To sink a well in some of these areas would cost approximately €20 million to €40 million. That is a great deal of money. We have drilled more than 180 wells, and that amounts to more than €1 billion. Either the State or the private sector can do this. The Government takes the view that the private sector should do it, but companies have to be recompensed for it. This is a risky business. As one achieves more success one can introduce tougher and more challenging paybacks and we will examine this in new terms.

A second area relating to recent correspondence on MediaLab Europe before the committee today is a letter the Department received on 4 October 2006 from the liquidator Mr. David Hughes of Ernst & Young. In it he talks about meetings that were held between Mr. Tuohy and officials from his Department, Enterprise Ireland, a person representing William Fry, and Mr. John Colson, who represented Ernst & Young. The discussion as outlined in the letter was on patents that were available for MediaLab Europe. It refers to one patent that was sold for a consideration of €20 plus the undertaking of the prosecution costs of €3,000.

This letter is intriguing because the liquidator states he engaged a Mr. Robert Swartz to give advice on the value of the patents. Mr. Swartz advised they were valued at approximately $5,000 each. There were 12 of them so if one was sold for $20, the 11 remaining would be worth $55,000. The letter goes on to say that Mr. Swartz, having advised the liquidator, approached the liquidator as part of a group that subsequently purchased the patents for a consideration of approximately €40,000. That does not seem to be good business practice and prompts a series of questions. Has the Department responded to this correspondence?

Mr. Tuohy

Is Deputy Boyle familiar with the fact that, once a liquidator is appointed in such a situation, we are limited in what we can force him to do? We have had this discussion before and despite our best efforts our hands are tied.

Patents must be kept live. We met the liquidator last year, at the meeting that was referred to, with experts from Enterprise Ireland to assist because I am not an expert in patents. The liquidator had looked at the patents and there is an EU process for dealing with them. He assessed the strength of the patents and the likelihood of their being successful and made a call as to whether they were worth maintaining. We reviewed and asked the liquidator to consider all the possibilities, even though we had no legal responsibility and could not force him to do anything.

We had to ask whether it was worth keeping the patents alive or letting them die. If they were kept alive, they would have to be paid for and Enterprise Ireland was not enamoured of the idea. However, as time moves on, things change. As the Deputy knows, patents have a very limited shelf life. Mr. Swartz, whom I do not know, was brought in by the liquidator for an assessment and was not over-optimistic, so put a consortium together to buy them himself. I find it unusual that a company should sell to someone who advises it. It is not something a Government Department would do.

The liquidator was told there was not much value in the patents. I am second-guessing him but he would have asked whether to continue to put money into them — and they are not inexpensive — or decide to sell. He decided to sell for €40,000. In many of these cases one never knows their value. They may turn out to be a major asset in the future but patenting is a risky business.

I query the principle, more than anything else. We have had similar situations with Departments, State agencies and consultancies in the past. If the patents were fully in the ownership of the State, in the custody of Departments, and a consultant engaged to assess their value subsequently approached the Department to buy the patents, would that be acceptable practice on the part of the Department or the Government?

Mr. Tuohy

That is not what we would normally do. We would normally go to tender. If an adviser is engaged on the value of, for example, a property and then wants to buy the property, it is put out to tender. If I were the liquidator, I would probably have done that but advertising patents for sale automatically diminishes their value because when people know what they are for it affects their value.

The issues around patents are included among the more complex areas of EU law. How does one protect them? MediaLab Europe was encouraged to develop patents as part of its business model. When something is patented it is the subsequent work to build on that patent which produces the payback. Obviously the company did not continue long enough for the subsequent follow-on patents. The question was whether to keep them in existence in perpetuity. Somebody has to pay for them and I presume the liquidator took the view that his job was to divest, which he did.

I wanted to clarify that matter. I will ask a question about the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland, which is indirectly related. Part of the responsibility of the BCI is to ensure that radio, in particular local radio, plays 25% Irish-derived music. This has economic consequences because the money then goes back to Irish musicians. To what extent does the Department monitor whether that happens or whether the BCI is effective in that role? It is linked because of the funding arrangement with the licence fee.

Mr. Tuohy

Independent regulatory bodies jealously guard their independence, as the Deputy knows. However, they are answerable to the Houses and the committees. They produce an annual report and the Minister takes it to the Government. We have a performance contract with all our non-commercial bodies, other than the regulatory bodies, wherein we set out and measure what we want to achieve from them. When we discussed this with the BCI its chairman felt it was not appropriate for us to set the targets and we accepted that. We wanted to make sure there were processes in place for such an exercise and that the BCI would publish its results. I cannot be answerable for what an independent body produces but it is answerable to various committees of the Houses. Its accounts are audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General, so it can be brought in at any stage but it would not take well to my answering on its behalf.

Will Mr. Purcell comment?

Mr. Purcell

As the Accounting Officer said, the accounts are audited by me and therefore come within the remit of this committee. I certified the accounts for 2005 earlier this year and am almost certain they have been presented to the House since then and so are available to the committee.

What scope is there for ministerial regulation — by way of secondary legislation rather than going back to the House under existing legislation — for enforcing the 25% minimum in a particular way? One of the fears is that much of the Irish-derived music is played between 3 a.m. and 4 a.m. and the quota is artificially reached in that way. It is not enough just to have a quota — it must be applied in peak time as well as at other times.

Mr. Tuohy

As the Deputy is aware, the draft heads of a new broadcasting Bill have been prepared. The committee dealing with them has received 300 submissions. The Deputy's point might be worth taking up in that way. I empathise with him because we have found many new stars on television this year.

On the Vote, I notice the Department paid €199,000 to a legal firm for advice on the Corrib gas project. In the previous year, 2004, the figure was €250,000. What was the nature of that advice and why was the advice not available from the Attorney General?

Mr. Tuohy

The advice related to the petroleum lease for the exploration of the Corrib field. Arthur Cox was retained by the office of the Chief State Solicitor at very short notice in January 2001, before this Department was established, on the basis that the office of the Chief State Solicitor did not have the in-house expertise or staff to deal with a project of that magnitude and because of the extreme urgency associated with it. A total bill for almost €435,000 was received in 2004. Of that, €250,000 was paid and the balance, €184,000 plus interest bringing it up to almost €200,000, was paid in 2005. A note from the office of the Chief State Solicitor states: "In our view, Arthur Cox solicitors provide a first class legal service in relation to this complex and novel project, which involved consideration of a wide range of legal issues and numerous meetings."

The problem is that projects of that type come before the Government once in a lifetime. I hope it will happen more often but that is not our experience. The scale and complexity meant that the advice from the Office of the Chief State Solicitor was to seek external advice because we did not have the capability in-house to deal with it. Over time the cost of the project will run to billions. Getting the lease and terms right was absolutely necessary. Clearly, lawyers do not come cheap.

How did the interest payment arise?

Mr. Tuohy

The interest payment was due because the bill was split over two years. Interest was calculated from the date of the first payment in respect of the balance not discharged in 2004. It was computed on the basis of the Revenue Commissioners' interest rate.

Did the matter go to arbitration, or was it subject to the taxing master process?

Mr. Tuohy

I think there was an agreement. There was no dispute over the amount. It had to do with the way it was paid, as the bill was split over two years.

Is it not a little unusual in that when one receives a bill from a solicitor, it is normally paid? Is it normal practice to enter into an agreement that if a solicitor's bill is not paid within a certain time, interest may be charged on it?

Mr. Tuohy

As I stated, it predates my tenure. I think the bill was submitted in 2004. It was for €434,000 or €435,000. Interest of €14,000 was calculated on top of this. Some €250,000 was paid, leaving an amount to be paid of €48,000.

Are legal costs being incurred in 2006 in respect of the Corrib gas project?

Mr. Tuohy

We will have legal costs this year, but they will be much lower than last year. There has not been as much development or as many applications, etc.

Is it the same firm of solicitors which is involved?

Mr. Tuohy

It is the same people who are involved. I cannot remember what they have done this year, as there has not been much movement. There will have to be an application for a foreshore licence for Shell for the Corrib gas project. It will be a new application, regarding which there are issues to be dealt with.

There will never be in-house expertise for once-off projects of this scale. We try to tie the matter down. More and more we are using fixed-price contracts, even with lawyers. We began this practice in more recent years and it has been very effective.

With regard to the Corrib gas project, we all know from looking at television that the work of the main contractor onshore has been delayed. I presume the contract was entered into at a fixed price but clearly with concessions to be made if there were delays for which the contractor was not responsible. Has money been paid to the contractor for delays?

Mr. Tuohy

We are not undertaking the development; Shell is. We would not be involved.

Does the Department have any liability?

Mr. Tuohy

No.

Is there any contingent liability for any legal case that may result from the current protest?

Mr. Tuohy

It is a matter for Shell. It is up to the company to insure itself. The Department has issued the various licences and done what it had to do. It is up to the company to process the matter. Is the Chairman referring to the delays caused by protestors, etc.?

Mr. Tuohy

That is a matter for Shell. The Garda has been more than supportive. It has had to bring in gardaí every day to clear the roads. In a broader sense the Government has been doing whatever it can, but it is really a matter for Shell to process the product.

Therefore, apart from normal administration costs within the Department, the main cost has been incurred in respect of legal advice?

Mr. Tuohy

We make the inspections. We have a technical advisory group in-house. Its members go down and do different things on the safety and environmental side. We pay for this work. The other costs cover the associated legal fees.

I wish to move to another topic. There was a Garda inquiry into certain events in Killybegs. The central issue was the under-declaration of fish landings, or it was at least one of the issues involved. Can Mr. Tuohy provide an update?

Mr. Tuohy

There are two issues. Almost four years ago we received a complaint which was immediately passed to the Garda Commissioner. There was a series of issues about illegal fishing and the under-declaration of landings, etc. After the complaint had been passed to the Garda Commissioner, gardaí carried out a series of raids approximately one year afterwards. Since the summer we have had a new Sea Fisheries Act in place, but I gather this issue is being processed under the old legislation, although it was deficient. The prosecuting authority was a mixture of the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Attorney General. It was one of the few areas in which the Attorney General still had a role in prosecutions. Together with the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Garda authorities, the Attorney General had total control. They did not brief us on the matter. Although we are interested in what will happen, we do not have a role to play.

There is a second issue, to which the Chairman may have referred. Fish caught illegally in Scotland were brought to our attention by the British authorities. Over 40,000 tonnes of fish was landed, caught over a period of about three to four years, with a value at the time of about €80 million. The quota for this year has been reduced by the amount caught in the last year of that period, approximately 6,500 tonnes.

We are involved in discussions on the issue. Three boats have been mentioned. The industry in general and the Ministers involved are keen to ensure the guilty will pay, but nobody has yet been found guilty, although we have the names of the boats involved. There must be due process. We have deducted 6,500 tonnes from the quota for the remainder of this mackerel season and are proposing to reduce the quota for certain boats by this amount to make up the numbers. The owners have the right of appeal.

The Department has primary responsibility.

Mr. Tuohy

We do in that specific case. Prosecutions are a separate issue. As the acts were engaged in in Scotland, they will probably be a matter for the UK authorities. The more challenging issue will be to decide over what period of years the other 36,000 tonnes of under-declared fish will be deducted from the annual programme. It is a very significant amount, given that our annual quota is approximately 40,000 tonnes.

Does this come within the remit of Mr. Purcell's audit, or is it a matter for European Court of Auditors?

Mr. Purcell

Both. It came within the remit of my office because we audit the accounts of the fishery harbour centres, of which Killybegs is the largest. At the time I was certainly unhappy to sign off on the accounts. I was unhappy about the controls in operation in recording fish landings. Some of the income of the fishery harbour centres comes from landing fees, which were calculated using the weight and types of fish landed. At one stage the absence of personnel such as sea fishery officers in certain fishery centres, or even harbour masters, did not provide comfort that the controls in operation at these harbours, including Killybegs, were up to scratch. I had to be satisfied that matters had improved in order to include an appropriate audit certificate in the accounts for each of these centres.

The European Court of Auditors and the European Commission would be very interested in a case where 40,000 tonnes of fish was under-recorded. They would have their own way of applying disallowances and penalties. The Accounting Officer would be more familiar with this than I would.

Mr. Tuohy

We have an obligation to enforce the Common Fisheries Policy, part of which aims to ensure the quotas for various species are not exceeded. There is a legal issue, but there is also a significant conservation issue because this is, effectively, stealing from the sea. This will impact on prices, as the more that is available in the market, the lower the price. The Scottish issue indicates that the scale of this is phenomenal. Under the new sea fisheries legislation prosecutions on that scale will be passed on to the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP, and we will also have a role. The new Sea Fisheries Protection Authority will be set up on January 1 and all sea fisheries control officers will join it. We are recruiting the members for this three-person authority at the moment.

With regard to the Comptroller and Auditor General's comments on the fishery harbour centres, all the harbour masters are now in place and we have greatly increased the level of staff in the area, as I outlined last year. Fishery organisations and others must take responsibility, as one cannot monitor everything all of the time. This is evident in the situation relating to roads in Ireland. There are around 40 sea fisheries officers, which is not a huge number given the length of Ireland's coastline.

Will Mr. Tuohy's Department reissue salmon netting licences next year?

Mr. Tuohy

Is the Chairman referring to drift-netting licences?

Yes, drift-netting licences — or is Mr. Tuohy buying everyone out?

Mr. Tuohy

A report on this matter by the independent salmon review is due to be presented to the Government in the coming weeks. Around 68,000 salmon were caught in drift-netting last year. Reaching the conservation levels in 2007 that the Government has committed to is incompatible with the multi-stock drift-netting that exists at the moment. The Government has set up a group to examine this along with the hardship issues involved in the implication of the conservation levels. We must publish the figures for this before the end of November, so there is some urgency. We are on target to deliver the report and make recommendations to the Government. I cannot comment on those recommendations until Government has decided but this issue will be dealt with in the coming weeks.

I have a copy of a report that was in a Sunday newspaper on 18 June with the headline "Broadband bill hits €120 million with little return", and it goes on to argue that the investment in broadband has been a waste of money. How is the Department's broadband initiative working, and is this report valid?

Mr. Tuohy

The broadband initiative is going very well and we have more than 410,000 subscribers but journalists will write what they want. The international statistics used refer to the number of lines per 100,000 inhabitants and an analysis of Europe reveals a dramatic difference between Protestant and Catholic countries in this regard because Protestant countries tend to have smaller families.

The maximum level we can reach is around 35%. The total number of inhabitants is around 4.2 million and if this is divided by the total number of households, around 1.2 million or 1.3 million the figure reached is around 30% to35%. This is very different in Denmark and other countries because the ratio between population and number of households is not the same and we must be careful to compare like with like. In Ireland close to 30% of households have broadband. Households here have more people than in Europe so we are low in the tables. If we had 100% penetration for households, we would still be at 35% in the table, which is one of the lowest levels in Europe. I am conscious that the right figures be used at the right time, though the media can twist them any way as they have done in this case.

To refer to the geological survey, did the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources prepare the original Government memorandum, or did it simply transmit a memorandum prepared by the Geological Survey of Ireland, GSI?

Mr. Tuohy

The Department submitted the memo but the technical input came from the Geological Survey of Ireland. While the GSI is a division of the Department, it does not have the expertise in submitting regular memos to Government that most divisions would. There was no effort to mislead Government but, in retrospect, the memorandum was not as clear to those not involved as it could have been. However, it was clear in the brochures that were distributed.

The Government decision would have gone to the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources.

Mr. Tuohy

It went to the relevant Minister at the time, the Minister for Public Enterprise.

The Government decision used the phrase "from the shore out". How could there be any misunderstanding?

Mr. Tuohy

I think that reference is made in the memo rather than the Government decision.

In that case the decision would be in accordance with the proposal made. If the memorandum said "from the shore out", where is the misunderstanding that led to shallow water not being surveyed?

Mr. Tuohy

It refers to approving the proposal for a survey of the Irish seabed area to be conducted under the GSI. It did not say "from the shore out" in the Government decision. I am not playing with words and I take the Chairman's point.

Did the memorandum say "from the shore out"?

Mr. Tuohy

The memorandum did say that in reference to the 850,000 sq. km. but the GSI did not believe that this was included. The memo for Government said "to approve the proposal for a survey of the Irish seabed area to be conducted under the GSI". It went on to state that Ireland claims an area of more than 850,000 sq. km. That is the area to which I referred earlier. In retrospect, when this was explained by the GSI, we understood that there was no attempt to mislead anybody but that it was not as clear as it could have been. The figures shown are very different. Taking into account the integrated mapping for the sustainable development of Ireland's marine resource, INFOMAR, we will be clear, when going back over the details to try to do this within the life of the National Development Plan, NDP, rather than take 20 years.

I read something to the effect that the GSI understood that reports were tabled at Cabinet, along with a brief outline of the strategic changes.

Mr. Tuohy

Sometimes at Cabinet copies of reports may be distributed but not tabled on the agenda. The brochures that were here were handed out to satisfy people's interest.

Is Mr. Tuohy saying the change in the survey's scope was indicated somehow at Cabinet?

Mr. Tuohy

The GSI supplied the material for distribution in the normal sense but there was no formal memo for Government.

I understand that.

Mr. Tuohy

That is the difference; there is no Government decision saying x, y and z have been noted. Normally, if the GSI was a traditional line division of the Department, it would complete an aide-mémoire saying “please note”. However, the GSI does not usually put memos to Government.

The GSI would normally go through the Department, rather than going directly, so why would an aide-mémoire not accompany the brochures.

Mr. Tuohy

In retrospect, that should have been done and if we were doing it again we would follow the practice relating to aides-mémoire and memos. Regarding INFOMAR, we will go back to the Government on the possibility of funding when the NDP issue is resolved. At this point we will rectify the issues. The worst thing any civil servant can do is mislead the Government and that is not how we do business.

Mr. Purcell

In case it seems that we are being pedantic, I should point out that it was possible to misinterpret the original memorandum for Government in 1999. However, my view was copperfastened by the memorandum which sanctioned expenditure on the INFOMAR last November. This memorandum for Government explicitly stated that the original intention was that the Irish national seabed survey should cover the whole offshore area, from the shore out to the exclusive economic zone limits. It was recognised at an early stage — in 1999 — that the cost and complexity of inshore surveying was underestimated. Seeing this interpretation being reiterated and clarified in the latest memo for Government caused me concern. This dispelled the doubts in my mind about what was originally intended.

I accept what the director of the GSI has said today. I think he used the phrases "holding the hands up", and "misinterpreting" the original intention. The Canadian consultants were mentioned, but that does not mean a lot because they were briefed by the GSI, which had this different view of what was proposed. That does not wear at all. Anything I say here should be qualified by the fact that it is clearly valuable and important work that should be carried out. Lessons have been learned from the original national seabed survey in 1999. This was approved and sanctioned for seven years. That is a long timeframe in terms of technology developments, particularly in such a new area as seabed surveys. While the current programme, INFOMAR, is seen as a 20-year project, approval was only sought for an initial three years, after which matters would be reviewed. I thought this would also have been the correct and prudent way to do things in the seven-year programme. Before committing a sum of €34 million, milestones could have been set, at which times reviews would have taken place.

I now turn to the contract and the value of the work carried out by the firm that got the €10 million contract. I have no doubt that it represented value for money. However, it was fairly clear that a survey ship could not be dropped hundreds of miles out into the ocean — it would have to travel there and back. It makes a virtue of necessity if afterwards one says the seabed en route to the deep water was surveyed on the way out and back when the company seeks payment for this work. It was paid at the same rate. I accept that good value was obtained from the contract overall. However, this should have been thought out before the contract was signed.

As regards the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland, I accept that it was the intention of all concerned that it should operate in the way interpreted by the Department. I have a statutory remit to ensure that any payments made conform to the governing authorities. In this case, the authorities that governed the payments to the BCI were those outlined in the Broadcasting (Funding) Act. Examining the Act, it did not seem that the provisions governed those payments. While it is a technical matter, it is also a serious one. No matter what the intention of legislation, what is passed is what is interpreted and what stands or falls in court. The Department and the office of the Attorney General now accept this has to be put right. It is a good result.

Thank you, Mr. Purcell. We note Vote 30? Is that agreed? Agreed. We will dispose of chapters 9.1 and 9.2. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The witnesses withdrew.

Our agenda for Thursday, 26 October 2006 is as follows: 2005 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts — Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Irish Prison Service; Vote 21 on prisons, including chapter 4.1 on the acquisition of a site for prison development.

The committee adjourned at 14.15 p.m. until11 a.m. on Thursday, 26 October 2006.
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