COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 22 Mar 2007

Minutes of the Minister for Finance.

Mr. J. Purcell (An tArd Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) called and examined.

Chairman

The first matter is the minute of the Minister for Finance on the fourth interim report of the Committee of Public Accounts on the 2003 report of the Comptroller and Auditor General on the Department of Health and Children on Beaumont Hospital, the North Western Health Board, the Southern Health Board and the Department of Social and Family Affairs.

I intend to follow the summary analysis which committee members can see on screen. The clerk to the committee, Mr. Brian Hickey, will take us through it.

Clerk to the Committee

The first chapter of the interim report was on a report by the Comptroller and Auditor General entitled Health Sector Audits. The first recommendation was that effective arrangements should be put in place to monitor and control staffing numbers in the health sector. The Minister accepts the recommendation of the committee and he outlines the procedures and practices which were put in place to ensure this recommendation is carried through.

Chairman

Shall we note it? Agreed.

Clerk to the Committee

The Minister replies to two recommendations in one, namely, that the HSE must properly classify staff to facilitate the development of norms for the appropriate ratio of administrative and management staff to frontline staff, and that the contribution made by staff in direct support of frontline staff in the delivery of services should be taken into account when determining their classification. Members will recall this issue arose at a number of meetings of the committee during the past year. The Minister agrees with the committee's recommendations but he states that while new procedures are planned, it will be some time before they are fully in place.

Chairman

Shall we note it? Agreed.

Clerk to the Committee

The committee suggested that the numbers of contract and agency staff are kept under close review at all times in view of the significant cost implications of employing these categories of staff. The Minister agrees with the committee's recommendation and extends it by stating close monitoring of the agency staff in use is ongoing.

Chairman

Shall we note it? Agreed.

Clerk to the Committee

The committee recommended a standard procedure taking account of both legal advice and best practice should be put in place on the administration of patients' private property accounts. The Minister makes a quite lengthy reply which explains that a new statutory framework was put in place and he directed that his Department will monitor these arrangements.

Chairman

This is very important. Various health boards dealt differently with patients' accounts. Some retained the interest which accrued as an administrative charge on the accounts while others held a different view. We must have one national system and now the HSE is established it deals with patients' accounts.

More importantly, the rebates now coming through under legislation of the moneys taken illegally and improperly from patients in nursing homes will swell the amount of money in patients' accounts. Whereas previously it was €3 million or €4 million, potentially it could be €300 million or €400 million. It is important that this is nailed down, and that it is transparent and properly audited. Does the Comptroller and Auditor General have a comment?

Mr. John Purcell

As the Chairman stated, the inconsistency in the arrangements for managing patients' private property accounts was a constant source of annoyance — to put it mildly — to the committee in recent years. With the advent of the HSE and having a national approach, the legal approach was clarified and more central arrangements were put in place for the investment of those funds.

As the Chairman stated, the kind of rebates being paid into those accounts certainly will have the result of burgeoning the total amount of accumulated funds, so it is important that a professional approach is taken to their investment and management as well as a degree of certainty in respect of audit arrangements. Under the legislation, I will be empowered to audit the accounts. While the audits I will carry out will be more of a supervisory nature, they remain important because that function was not in place previously. There will, therefore, be a mechanism for reporting to the Oireachtas on the audits of the accounts.

Deputy J. Higgins

I would like a clarification on that from Mr. Purcell. I agree it is an important issue because it involves large amounts of money in the ownership of people who can be quite vulnerable and, in some cases, have a curtailed ability to function due to old age, which happens to us all. Can Mr. Purcell clarify whether the HSE can invest these funds in institutions that might be approved by the Financial Regulator or the National Treasury Management Agency?

Mr. Purcell

Clearly, the security of the funds is of paramount importance. The Deputy is right in saying that the money would not be invested in risky ventures, only financial institutions authorised by the Financial Regulator and the NTMA. The funds are generally not invested in equities but in what may be more secure but ultimately less remunerative stocks.

Deputy J. Higgins

If the Health Service Executive were to invest sums to the potential value of hundreds of millions of euro, as the Chairman estimated, would it act on the instructions of the patients concerned? If a financial institution collapsed or suffered a serious reverse, what would happen to the patients' funds and would the patients or the HSE lose? What happens in cases where patients might not be in a position to give instructions on investing moneys held in their name?

Mr. Purcell

As I understand it, the decision on investing is made by the HSE which would take professional advice on the secure stocks it should purchase. The procedure is in line with that for the funds held in court for minors and wards of the court, which the Courts Service invests centrally. The funds would be invested as a bundle of money rather than as respective amounts from each of patient A, B and C and the returns, which in most cases mean interest or dividends from Government stocks, would be allocated accordingly to each patient's account.

Deputy J. Higgins

Are the affairs of these patients being administered because they are not in a position to do so themselves for mental or other reasons?

Mr. Purcell

Some patients would not be in a position to regulate their affairs because of such problems, while others are old people who are long-stay residents in particular institutions. They would be allowed to take money from the account for purchasing comforts and other reasons but would not need the vast bulk of their money because their needs would be attended to by the nursing home or hospital.

Deputy J. Higgins

Let us say a patient with his or her full faculties had €50,000 in an account. Can the HSE decide to take €40,000 to invest in an institution without reference to the patient?

Chairman

As I understand it, if a patient in full charge of his or her faculties owned €50,000, the money would by definition be in his or her bank rather than a patient account. To trigger the patient account in the first instance, agreement is required between the authorities in the hospital or home and the patient. A reason, such as disability, would probably be needed to follow that route. Am I correct in my understanding?

Mr. Purcell

Yes, generally speaking, it would be for old and infirm people or those who do not have all their faculties and who are not in a position to regulate their own affairs. However, the money is safe and I do not think there is any possibility that patients would lose. The Minister's minute states that no money in excess of €5,000 per year can be used for the benefit of the patient without the approval of the Circuit Court and that the Courts Service has prepared a set of draft rules to allow such applications to be made. The HSE, as a trustee for those funds, must make the patient's interest paramount.

Chairman

Is it agreed that we note the Minister's reply? Agreed.

Clerk to the Committee

The sixth recommendation is there should be clear guidance under requirements for the approval of capital projects in the health sector. This recommendation arose from expenditures by certain former health boards on capital projects. The Minister in his minute accepts in full the recommendation of the committee and further explains that the appraisal and management of capital expenditure should be followed and the commissioning and running costs of all capital projects should in future be factored in by the HSE.

Chairman

Is it agreed that we note the reply? Agreed.

Clerk to the Committee

The next section pertains to the Vote of the Department of Health and Children and chapter 12.1 of the 2001 report of the Comptroller and Auditor General. The first recommendation of the committee was that the Department and the HSE should develop on a national basis a comprehensive set of health indicators against which outcomes can be compared. The Minister has accepted this and states that the indicators have been developed and will be refined and improved in future.

Chairman

Noted.

Clerk to the Committee

The second recommendation made by the committee was that the Department should consult the HSE and other relevant agencies to improve the reporting of the effectiveness of different medical practices and procedures across all areas of the health sector. Again, the Minister has accepted the committee's recommendation and states that a process is being put in place to ensure the recommendation is implemented.

Chairman

That is noted.

Clerk to the Committee

The third recommendation of the committee was that further efforts be made by the Department to achieve a satisfactory and fair outcome in the matter of recovering overpayments made to GPs on foot of invalid medical cards. The Minister accepts this recommendation generally but it has not been fully implemented yet and he goes on to say the matter is being reviewed on an ongoing basis.

Mr. Purcell

There has not been much progress in this matter. It seems to have been caught up in the negotiation of wider issues between the Department and the GP representative organisation, the IMO. As members will recall, these payments were made to GPs in respect of what were euphemistically called ghost medical card holders, amounting to approximately €6.5 million. When GPs were tackled about it they said they were not being paid for certain people for whom they should be paid. Work was carried out and the net result was an agreement that €1.8 million had been overpaid to GPs. Members should not hold their breath waiting for GPs to pay back any money.

Deputy J. Higgins

This matter was comprehensively discussed in this committee a few years ago and I recall there being thousands of ghosts in the system. In fact, the system was thoroughly haunted. How it continued for so long without being checked is amazing. Surely in the era of computers and information technology, it should be possible to log people on and off doctors' registers as appropriate. It should not involve guesswork, which is essentially what was suggested by the doctors themselves when they said that the ghost money they received was offset by the real people for whom they did not receive money. That is a ridiculous way to carry out accounting procedures in that area of the health service.

Chairman

I agree with the Deputy that it is unsatisfactory. I presume what Mr. Purcell said is correct, that this has been put forward as a plank of the negotiations with the different medical bodies, whereby concessions elsewhere will cancel out the amount due. I have no expectation that GPs will pay back the €2 million they have received. The best that can be hoped for is that the Department and the HSE will obtain significant concessions for writing off the amounts. It is unsatisfactory from an accounting point of view and from our view as the Committee of Public Accounts. The Minister for Finance has met the case fairly so we should note his reply.

Clerk to the Committee

The next recommendation is that commissioning and running costs should be factored into the decision-making process of health capital projects. Again, the Minister has accepted the committee's recommendation. He draws the committee's attention to the Department of Finance's appraisal and management of capital expenditure and points out that the recommendation should be factored in by organisations such as the HSE.

Chairman

That is noted.

Clerk to the Committee

The next recommendation concerns the accounts for Beaumont Hospital for the three years 2000 to 2002, inclusive. The first recommendation of the committee was that the internal auditor should have the opportunity to report directly to the board without the CEO being present. The Minister for Finance has accepted the recommendation and points out that the guidelines for corporate governance of State bodies should be followed and that the terms of the guidelines concur with the recommendation.

Chairman

This matter arose from the disastrous and infamous car park at Beaumont Hospital and the manner in which it was organised and managed.

Mr. Purcell

There was also an issue involving unauthorised capital works in which, using politically correct language, the proper procurement procedures were not being followed. One example involved tenders being opened when supervisory staff were not present.

Chairman

May we note it? Agreed.

Clerk to the Committee

The second recommendation of the committee was that public sector organisations automatically check the references and qualifications in applications for all positions of authority. The Minister for Finance accepts the committee's recommendation and points out that recruitment policy in Beaumont Hospital has now been amended to prevent a recurrence of what happened in the past. The minute also points out that, within the HSE, standardised recruitment procedures are followed.

Chairman

Noted.

Clerk to the Committee

The third recommendation relates to charges to consultants. The recommendation was for the provision of support services, including laboratory services to private consultants, to be on a full-cost, arms length basis. The Minister makes a lengthy reply to the effect that he had been advised by the Department in this regard and explains why this recommendation cannot be implemented.

Mr. Purcell

This item emanated from chapter 5 of my report on health sector audits. It arose from the fact that Beaumont Hospital did not invoice the adjacent private clinic for tests carried out on its patients and had not changed its charge rates for laboratory services since 1991. It is clear from the minute that the matter of charging private patients for support services provided by public hospitals has not yet been resolved.

The minute refers to the Department of Health and Children undertaking an extensive review of the legislation governing eligibility and entitlement to services, with a view to drafting new legislation clarifying and updating existing provisions, including the area of charging. It is in the melting pot and will require new legislation. As the Minister stated in his reply, he regards this as a major issue of funding for the health services. Apart from the individual case relating to Beaumont Hospital, which I brought to attention in the report, it has a countrywide application.

Chairman

Noted.

Clerk to the Committee

That concludes chapter 3. Chapter 4 relates to what was the North Western Health Board and its accounts for 2001. The first recommendation follows on from the committee's examination of the health board's acquisition of new headquarters, involving considerable expenditure. The recommendation states that commitments for major capital projects should not be made without having the necessary funding in place.

The Minister, in his minute, accepts the committee's recommendation and once more alludes to the procedure outlined in the capital projects approval protocol that should be followed by State organisations.

Chairman

Noted.

Clerk to the Committee

The second recommendation is that improvements to the purchasing system in the north-western area of the HSE must be maintained. Again, the Minister accepts in full the recommendation of the committee and goes on to add that a new regulatory framework is now in place.

Chairman

Noted.

Clerk to the Committee

Chapter 5 of the report is on the accounts of the Southern Health Board in 2002. There was one recommendation, which stated that public procurement rules should always be followed for the engagement of consultants and other external services by public bodies. The recommendation is accepted and is being implemented. The Minister, in his minute, goes on to state that a new procurement policy was introduced last year.

Chairman

Noted.

Clerk to the Committee

Chapter 6 of the report related to the Department of Social and Family Affairs, both its Vote and a chapter in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. The first recommendation is that an effective system of medical review and examination should balance the resources applied with the risk of inappropriate payment while minimising the burden of bureaucracy on clients. The Minister accepts the committee's recommendation and goes on to state that procedures are being put in place to attempt to adhere to the recommendation.

Chairman

Noted.

Clerk to the Committee

The second recommendation is that the Department should improve its procedures for reconfirming appointment times for medical assessments closer to the set date. The Minister gives detailed reasons for this recommendation not being implemented and essentially states that current administrative arrangements do not allow for its implementation. He indicates the recommendation will continue to be considered in the context of ongoing and future organisational and IT developments.

Chairman

That is fair enough. Are we agreed to note that? Agreed.

Clerk to the Committee

The third recommendation is that the Department should keep under close review those GPs who certify persons as incapable for work who are later consistently found capable by the Department's medical assessors. The Minister accepts this recommendation, which is being implemented in part to date. He goes on to indicate that systems are being developed with a view to its implementation.

Chairman

Noted.

Clerk to the Committee

Recommendation No. 4 is that the Department should examine further the reasons persons examined medically as part of their assessment for disability payments and found capable of working are then put on other schemes. Although the Minister accepts the recommendation in his minute, he points out that all applicants must have their claims regarded on their merits, taking account of the eligibility criteria for each scheme.

Chairman

Is that agreed?

Mr. Purcell

The recommendation was intended to address the serial social welfare recipient, if we could use such a term for a person, who despite being found capable of work after medical examination, merely transfers to another benefit. He or she might alternatively go on to repeat disability or illness benefit. The key to such cases lies in the identification of those playing the system to their own advantage, so that action can be taken to accelerate the transition from welfare to work where possible. We are clearly speaking about cases which are not genuine.

Chairman

Noted.

Clerk to the Committee

The final recommendation is that the Department should, in conjunction with the Office of the Revenue Commissioners, introduce further systems of integration in order to streamline both systems and so reduce the time taken to detect overpayments. The Minister accepts the recommendation but indicates that contact is ongoing between the Department and the Revenue Commissioners on improving co-operation and increasing the harmonisation of both systems.

Chairman

Noted. We have noted the individual recommendations so does the committee agree to note the minute? Agreed. We will have the same procedure with the next minute, the minute of the Minister for Finance on the sixth interim report of the Committee of Public Accounts on the 2003 report of the Comptroller and Auditor General dealing with the Civil Service Commission, the Office of the Ombudsman, the Department of Finance and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. We will follow the same procedure and I would ask the clerk to take us through it.

Clerk to the Committee

The first chapter of the committee's report related to the Civil Service Commission. There were three recommendations and the Minister responded to all of them together in his minute. In short, he states that all Departments and offices should by now have implemented modern financial management systems which would prevent another occurrence of what happened at that time.

Mr. Purcell

The three recommendations basically reiterate the message given in a previous committee report of the importance of countering the vulnerability of financial and accounting systems in a period of change to new systems. As the minute notes, all Departments and offices have now completed implementation of modern financial management systems. It should not arise but the issue must always be kept in mind when such a change is taking place.

Chairman

We will note the reply to recommendations Nos. 1 to 3, inclusive, on the Civil Service Commission. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Clerk to the Committee

Chapter 2 relates to the Office of the Ombudsman and some overspending with its Vote. There are two recommendations. The first is that all Departments and offices should settle their tax liabilities on time and should be subject to the normal penalties for late payment. The Minister accepts the recommendation of the committee in his minute and indicates that Government offices are subject to the same penalties as commercial organisations.

Chairman

Noted.

Clerk to the Committee

The second recommendation is that proper procedures for the maintenance of adequate internal financial control should be built in while new financial systems are being introduced. The reply is similar to that relating to the Civil Service Commission, where the Minister accepts the recommendation and indicates that all Departments and offices should by now have implemented modern financial management systems.

Mr. Purcell

That is true and it is the same point. Both of these were instances where things went wrong in the change from an old system to a new one. The recommendations, in a sense, span both the Civil Service Commission and the Office of the Ombudsman. These systems are now in place. Without wishing to pre-empt the findings of the audit of the 2006 accounts, I would not imagine we should have the same type of problem.

Chairman

Noted.

Clerk to the Committee

Chapter 3 of the report related to the Department of Finance, with its various Votes, and chapters on the finance accounts and the contingency fund deposit account.

The first recommendation was that the letter accompanying the charges order should be strengthened in line with the increased sums of money involved. Returning officers must be reminded of their responsibilities with regard to adhering to public procurement rules, internal financial control and proper accounting record keeping.

Chairman

Noted.

Clerk to the Committee

The second recommendation is that consideration should be given to the introduction of a sanction against those returning officers who do not make returns in an accurate and timely manner. The Minister again accepts the committee's recommendation and indicates that sanctions are being considered for those who do not adhere to the timeframes in future.

Chairman

Noted.

Clerk to the Committee

Recommendation No. 3 states that steps should be taken to ensure that receipt of EU funding is not jeopardised due to the presence of avoidable delays in the administration of national schemes. The Minister, in accepting the recommendation, outlines some measures that have been taken to ensure EU funding is not lost due to avoidable administrative delays.

Chairman

Will Mr. Purcell remind us how European funds are audited?

Mr. Purcell

European funds in Ireland take on the character of national funds for the purposes of auditing and are subject to the same audit regime as Voted moneys and other moneys issued from the Central Fund. Regarding agriculture, most EU money now comes on the side of FEOGA and there are additional audit provisions involved. The Department of Agriculture and Food appoints a certifying body, which in practice is one of the major auditing firms, that certifies the claims made on Brussels. There is a substantial internal audit unit in the Department of Agriculture and Food and, of course, all moneys are subject to on-the-spot audits from the European Commission directorates involved. Above this level of auditing lies the European Court of Auditors, which undertakes missions in Ireland on certain aspects of expenditure. These audits are carried out under the treaty in co-operation with my office and work well in practice.

Chairman

Noted.

Clerk to the Committee

Chapter 4 of the committee's report relates to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and specifically relates to chapter 8(1) of the Comptroller and Auditor General's annual report, on electronic voting.

The first recommendation was that a proper cost-benefit analysis should be undertaken on proposed new systems prior to committing major levels of funding to their introduction. The Minister, in his minute, accepts the committee's recommendation and goes on to say that the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is now implementing the Department of Finance's guidelines for the appraisal and management of capital expenditure proposals in the public sector.

Chairman

Noted.

Clerk to the Committee

The second recommendation states that the hardware and software systems involved should be properly tested and signed off on and the electoral and administrative procedures thoroughly checked by the commission before the system is introduced. The Minister accepts this recommendation and goes on to say that the need for further testing of the electronic voting system is accepted by the Department.

Chairman

Noted.

Clerk to the Committee

The third recommendation is that the Department should intervene to ensure there is better cost control for the storage and insurance of the voting machines. Returning officers should be asked to certify that they have complied with the necessary regulations and standard procedures, including procurement procedures, that apply in the State sector. The Minister accepts the recommendations and goes on to say that the electronic voting machines are now being stored by the Defence Forces and that, in addition, the Department of Finance has reminded returning officers that they should adhere to the guidelines on public procurement.

Chairman

Noted.

Clerk to the Committee

Chapter 5 of the committee's annual report is the final chapter and it relates to the Vote of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. The first recommendation is that the Department should review the effectiveness of the provisions of the Part V scheme for social and affordable housing. The Minister, in his minute, accepts the committee's recommendation and goes on to say that further amendments in legislation have been aimed at maximising the effectiveness of the Part V scheme and that the number of units being provided as a result continues to increase.

Chairman

Noted.

Clerk to the Committee

The second recommendation is that the results of the pilot scheme should be used to compare the effectiveness of the rental accommodation scheme with that of social housing provision to inform future policy formation. The Minister accepts the recommendation and goes on to say that the Government's target is expected to be met by 2009 and that the scheme is scheduled to be subject to a full value for money review.

Deputy Burton

I have to say that I do not find the Minister's note to be in compliance with the situation I know in Fingal. The rental accommodation scheme, RAS, is not in effect there and the situation is very confusing for people on the housing list and officials working for the council. The Comptroller and Auditor General said in his report that about €440 million is spent annually on rental allowances. The RAS is supposed to move people into five-year contracts with landlords but this is not happening to a significant extent in the local authority in my constituency.

There have been a number of pilot schemes but a return to RAS is necessary because there is a significant amount of public expenditure on private rented accommodation. This appears largely to consist of subsidies to landlords, which is fine if that is the only accommodation available, but people on rent supplements are effectively barred from working and improving their circumstances. Instructions have been given to community welfare officers not to give rent supplements in regeneration scheme areas. This has been applied informally for some time, is part of the current Social Welfare and Pensions Bill and means that community welfare officers will not pay rent supplements in certain areas of the country, for example, Ballymun. As a result there has been a massive move to push rented housing and grant allowances into areas such as Dublin 15.

We now have a significant immigrant population and the implications of this policy must be worked out in detail. I understand that the reason behind the decision made by the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Noel Ahern, to ban rent allowances in regeneration areas is to stop investors buying in such areas to rent to people in receipt of rent supplements. He wants to encourage owner occupiers in such areas and I do not disagree with this objective but it has severe potential consequences for neighbouring areas and means people from these areas will be unable to get social housing.

At the moment, at the affordable housing partnership in my constituency, an affordable apartment is €320,000 and one must have an income of €46,000 to €50,000 to support an affordable housing application. In Dublin — it may not be the same in the Chairman's constituency — people are chasing their tails. They apply to Dublin City Council, receive theoretical clearance for affordable housing but do not in practice have the income to support the application and do not qualify for social housing. They are caught in perpetual no man's land. People who leave work to get social housing are caught because they cannot go back to work.

The Minister's reply is far more benign than the actual policy implementation. It has many unforeseen consequences and I do not accept the Minister's statement that it has now been applied in every area unless, tangentially, councils have said in principle that they will try to implement it, but that is not implementation.

Perhaps the comptroller might return to the issue again because it has major consequences for whole areas of both local authority estates and areas adjacent to them and for rental and investment patterns in certain parts of the city. By and large, there are no rent allowances in Foxrock because community welfare officers will not give a rent cheque for the rental price in Foxrock. We are at risk of ghettoising rent allowances if the current policy and what the Minister said in his reply are allowed to continue.

Mr. Purcell

I listened carefully to what the Deputy said but it is very much a policy issue and I do not believe I could get involved in that aspect of the question. The recommendation suggests there should be some mechanism for comparing the effectiveness of the rental accommodation scheme with the provision of social housing to see where the balance of advantage lies in economic terms but social considerations have to be taken into account as well.

The Minister is saying that when we transfer what we might call a critical mass of rent supplement recipients to the rental accommodation scheme, we will have a meaningful basis on which to do this comparison, which should inform future policy formation. However, there are broader social issues in the Deputy's contribution that I would have to think seriously about before getting involved in terms of a new study of the rental accommodation scheme. Ultimately, two to three years from now we might revisit the rental accommodation scheme having taken into account the Department's value for money exercise it intends to carry out rather than duplicate that at this stage.

Chairman

If I recall correctly, on the most recent visit by the Accounting Officer from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, he said there were now 3,700 families within the new scheme, that 2,300 of those were transfers from the rent allowance scheme to the new scheme and that there were approximately 1,400 new ones. It is operating unevenly in my constituency but it has the potential to be a very effective scheme. I would be inclined to agree with Mr. Purcell that we need more time before we would be categoric in any evaluation we make of it.

Deputy Fleming

I concur with what the comptroller said. Our recommendation is that we should compare the effectiveness of the scheme, and the Minister agrees with that. There is a clear commitment in his reply that a full value for money review will be carried out and, effectively, that is what we asked.

Deputy Burton's request is different and I do not know whether this committee or another committee will come back to it but the Minister has responded precisely to our recommendation. This is a broader debate and we all have views about the scheme's operation in our own constituencies but that is not the subject of the recommendation we made.

Chairman

Yes, but since this process commenced and the Minister's minute was prepared, we have had another session with the Department which the committee will report on in due course.

Deputy Fleming

We will have another opportunity, therefore.

Chairman

I suggest the Deputy will have an opportunity to put many of his views the next time there is an interim report on this Department.

Deputy Burton

I do not believe the statement by the Minister that the scheme is now operating in all housing authority areas. That is a large statement, so to speak, by the Minister. It may depend on the view he takes of what it means to operate in all housing authority areas. It is operating in a number of housing authority areas but not, in my experience, in all of them.

Deputy Fleming

The housing authority is the local authority. I understand it is operating in every local authority but the Deputy is saying it may not be operating in all areas within her local authority. That is a different issue.

Deputy Burton

No. I am saying it is not as yet operational. There may be one or two cases but that does not constitute "operational".

Chairman

We should note the recommendation and ask the secretariat to seek clarification on that issue.

Deputy Burton

The secretariat might find out the number of properties that are subject to these agreements in each local authority because that would help clarify the matter. Perhaps some local authorities are operating it extensively but some are not.

Mr. Purcell

That is a good idea because the following sentence states that nearly all housing authorities are now mobilised and most have begun to transfer cases. Semantics may be involved here when it comes to something that is operational but not mobilised and perhaps that aspect can be clarified by the secretariat.

Clerk to the Committee

The final recommendation is that the Department should make every effort to reduce the causes of environmental complaints brought at European Union level. The Minister in his minute accepts the recommendation of the committee. He goes on to outline a number of steps that have been taken to ensure that the recommendation is adhered to, such as an intensification of the dialogue between Ireland and the European Commission; the establishment of the Office of Environmental Enforcement; and the setting up of a task force by the Minister.

Chairman

Is that noted? Agreed. We have noted the individual recommendations. Is it agreed that we note the minute? Agreed.

There is no other business. Our agenda for the next meeting on Thursday, 29 March 2007 is as follows: meeting with the Audit Committee of the Seimas and the Auditor General of the Republic of Lithuania. The meeting will be in public session followed by lunch.

The committee adjourned at 12.50 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 29 March 2007.