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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 29 May 2008

Health Service Executive — Financial Statements 2006.

Mr. M. Scanlan (Secretary General, Department of Health and Children), Professor B. Drumm (Chief Executive Officer, Health Service Executive) and Mr. P. O’Byrne (Chief Executive Officer, National Treatment Purchase Fund) called and examined.

I welcome everybody to the meeting. Witnesses should be aware that they do not enjoy absolute privilege. Their attention and that of members is drawn to the fact that, as and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997 grants certain rights to persons identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. These rights include: the right to give evidence; the right to produce or send documents to the committee; the right to appear before the committee, either in person or through a representative; the right to make a written and oral submission; the right to request the committee to direct the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents; and the right to cross-examine witnesses. For the most part, these rights may be exercised only with the consent of the committee. Persons invited to appear before the committee are made aware of these rights and any persons identified in the course of proceedings who are not present may have to be made aware of them and provided with the transcript of the relevant part of the committee's proceedings if the committee considers it appropriate in the interests of justice.

Notwithstanding this provision in legislation, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 158 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policy or policies.

I welcome Mr. Scanlan, Secretary General of the Department of Health and Children, and ask him to introduce his officials.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

I am accompanied by Mr. Larry O'Reilly who works in the parliamentary affairs division; Mr. John Devlin, chief medical officer, and Mr. David Moloney who works in the finance unit.

I welcome Professor Drumm, chief executive officer of the Health Service Executive, and ask him to introduce his officials.

Professor Brendan Drumm

I am accompanied by Mr. Liam Woods, director of finance; Ms Laverne McGuinness, director of our primary, community and continuing care service; and Ms Ann Doherty, director of the National Hospitals Office.

I welcome Mr. O'Byrne, chief executive officer of the National Treatment Purchase Fund, and ask him to introduce his officials.

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

I am accompanied by Ms Anna Lloyd, director of patient care with the National Treatment Purchase Fund, and Mr. David Allen, director of finance.

Officials from the Department of Finance are also present. I ask Mr. Heffernan to introduce them.

Mr. Tom Heffernan

I am principal officer in the sectoral policy division and accompanied by Mr. Dave Ring, principal officer.

I ask Mr. Buckley to introduce Vote 39 — Department of Health and Children (resumed); Vote 40 — Health Service Executive (resumed); Vote 41 — Office of the Minister for Children; the National Treatment Purchase Fund's financial statement for 2006; the HSE financial statements for 2006; and value for money report No. 55 of the Comptroller and Auditor General on medical consultants contracts.

Mr. John Buckley

In addition to the follow-up of the items considered by the committee at its meeting on 7 February, three new items fall to be considered: Vote 41 — Office of the Minister for Children, for the year ended 31 December 2006; the National Treatment Purchase Fund accounts for 2006; and special report No. 55 on the medical consultants contract.

The Vote for the Office of the Minister for Children brings together expenditure on some key aspects of the national children's strategy. It records payments made through the agency of the Department of Social and Family Affairs in respect of child care payments for pre-school children. The expenditure in the accounts under this heading represents nine months' payments. The accounts also record expenditure under two schemes administered by Pobal on behalf of the office — an equal opportunities child care programme and a national child care investment programme. The administrative costs of the office are included in the Vote of the Department of Health and Children.

The accounts of the National Treatment Purchase Fund for 2006 record expenditure of €75 million to purchase treatment for patients who were waiting for more than three months for surgical procedures in public hospitals.

Turning to the special report on the medical consultants contract, most medical consultants working in acute public hospitals are employed under the terms of a national common contract of employment which was adopted in 1997. Consultants' salaries amounted to €350 million in 2006. In addition, substantial pension entitlements also accrue under the terms of the contract.

The common contract covered the number of hours to be worked by consultants each week and the extent to which they could treat private patients. It also had provision for their co-operation in the development of clinical audit and providing for increased managerial involvement. This examination was undertaken to establish the extent to which the terms of the contract were being delivered. The HSE has had direct responsibility for this area since mid-2005.

At the time the examination was carried out, negotiations for a replacement form of contract were in progress. We felt that a report on the outcome of the 1997 contract, and on lessons learned from its implementation, would be useful in developing the replacement contract. I understand that substantial but not final agreement has been reached on a revised contract.

The examination found that key provisions of the 1997 contract were poorly defined or were unclear. As a result, hospital managers had difficulties when they tried to implement those provisions.

For example, there was a significant difference of interpretation between the health service employers and the consultants on the agreed number of hours to be worked. The employers claimed the contract provided for consultants to work a 39-hour week, but the consultants contended that only 33 hours were actually contracted. This difference of interpretation on what should be a basic provision persisted for over ten years.

The examination found that most hospital managers did not collect the kind of information that would allow them to satisfy themselves that consultants were discharging their contracted commitments. While hospital managers believed that many consultants worked more than the hours required under the contract, this belief cannot be substantiated in the absence of reliable records. In particular, hospital managements were unable to prove that the nine to 12 hours per week provided for consultants to undertake research, training and management activities were, in fact, spent on those activities.

The HSE has informed me that the proposed new consultant contract provides for the evidencing of each consultant's discharge of their commitment, including agreement of a clinical directorate service plan setting out each consultant's duties and scheduling his or her commitments and activities throughout a 37-hour working week.

Under the 1997 contract, some consultants were allowed to treat a quota of private patients while discharging their obligation to the public hospital. The limit for treatment of private patients was designated by the Minister and set overall at 20%. The examination found that, in practice, private patients' occupation of beds in public hospitals exceeded 20% in all three categories of clinical activity — elective, emergency and day cases. This has implications for equity of access for public patients, and means that fewer resources than intended are being applied for their treatment. The level of monitoring and management of consultants' private practice levels has been insufficient to ensure the designated limits are observed.

The proposed consultant contract will require consultants with mixed public-private patient caseloads to achieve a minimum of 80% treatment of public patients — effectively requiring them to see, diagnose or treat four public patients for every private patient. Better monitoring and control systems will be required to ensure these treatment targets will be achieved.

Provision for the development of clinical audit systems was a key feature of the 1997 contract. This committed consultants to participate in clinical audit and committed hospital managements to provide resources and structures within which clinical audit could be planned, carried out and reported.

The examination found there was limited follow-through on these obligations. While there are examples of good clinical audit practice in some areas, we found that, in general, both clinical audit and clinical risk management were underdeveloped. In particular, we found that most clinical audits carried out were not part of planned prioritised programmes and that results were generally not reported to hospital managements or shared with other hospitals.

Effective management of risks in hospitals depends critically on feedback from clinical audit. Clinical audit is essential in order to underpin the quality of care for hospital patients and maintain confidence in hospital services. The lesson from the past ten years seems to be that providing in a new consultants' contract for participation in clinical audit will not be sufficient and further steps will be needed to ensure clinical audit is firmly established as part of the management of services in hospitals. Standards and guidance for the operation of clinical audit in the acute hospital sector will need to be developed so that implementation can proceed on a planned national basis. The Health Information and Quality Authority and the State Claims Agency will have roles to play in this.

A promising feature of the 1997 contract was a commitment to increase the participation of medical consultants in the management of hospital services, under a clinical directorate model. This held out the prospect of moving to a situation where a clinical director would deploy and manage consultants and other resources, plan how services would be delivered, contribute to the process of strategic planning and address organisational priorities.

Between 1998 and 2004, more than €10 million was allocated to health boards and hospitals in support of the clinicians in management initiative. This has had only limited success. The examination found that full clinician involvement in managing resources was not yet the norm. Current structures could not, therefore, be considered to be fully functioning clinical directorates.

The HSE has informed me that the clinical directorate model will be enshrined in the new consultant contract and that, in future, consultants will have a leading role in management and associated decision making structures in their hospitals.

Overall, in implementing the changes envisaged and in order to achieve value for money from those changes, it would be desirable to adopt a change management plan and have a verification process to ensure the agreed change is delivered in accordance with action plans tailored to the circumstances of individual hospitals.

This is a brief overview of the key issues and recommendations presented in the report. The Secretary General and the chief executive officer of the HSE can provide the committee with an update on these and other matters.

I thank the Comptroller and Auditor General. I congratulate Mr. Buckley on his appointment and wish him a long and fruitful career.

Mr. John Buckley

I thank the Chairman and look forward to working with the committee.

I call on Mr. Michael Scanlan.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

I will pick up on several issues which arose during my last appearance before the committee in February. I will address the role of the Department and, in particular, the issue of performance evaluation and the Office of the Minister for Children, given that the committee is examining Vote 41.

The Department has recently published its statement of strategy for 2008 to 2010. The Department's mission is "to improve the health and well-being of people in Ireland in a manner that promotes better health for everyone, fair access, responsive and appropriate care delivery, and high performance".

The Minister for Health and Children is politically accountable for developing and articulating Government policy on health and personal social services, and for the overall performance of the health service. The Department's mandate is to support the Minister and the four Ministers of State by advising on policy development and implementation, evaluating the performance of existing policies and service delivery, preparing legislation, and working with other Departments, the social partners and international organisations.

One of the Department's functions is to develop and refine a system of performance evaluation which helps the Minister to assess the performance of the health system. Given the committee's role, it would be useful to focus on this issue.

Much of the public debate about health tends to focus on inputs — the need for extra funding, beds, consultants, nurses, etc. We expend a lot of energy debating what we should invest in health. However, even when funds are plentiful, we must get the most from what we put in.

The NESC has suggested that Ireland could make much better use of the existing resources being devoted to health. It stated, "... we need to rely more on the improved use of resources to make the case for additional resources, rather than the other way around...".

The OECD's recent study of the public service stated, "Instead of focussing on inputs and processes, more information needs to be gathered on outputs and outcomes and what has actually been achieved".

It is already clear that we are unlikely to see the same rate of increase in health spending over the next few years as we have in the recent past. This makes it all the more important that we deliver maximum benefit for patients from whatever resources we have.

This is not about balancing the books. It is about delivering the best possible service in terms of access, quality, effectiveness, etc. to those who need our services. I also want to emphasise that safe and effective care is also good value care. Poor quality care, in addition to its impact on individuals, leads to complications and the need for additional care, which raises costs substantially. International evidence suggests that good hospital management, for example, usually results in efficient use of resources and high quality patient care. Very often, the immediate reaction to a problem with our health services is to call for more investment and more staff for a particular service. We need instead to ask how the existing resources are being used, to find out what is actually being delivered in terms of outputs and outcomes, and whether there is a better way of providing the service. If we can show that we are getting the best from the existing investment in a particular service and still have a clear service deficit then we are in a much better position to make the case for additional investment.

There are many examples of good practice across the health service. One of the projects at the HSE's recent innovation awards ceremony was the St. James's Hospital physiotherapy department. I understand that the waiting times for a physiotherapy appointment at this hospital have been reduced by making better use of existing capacity. The non-attendance rate for outpatient physiotherapy had been as high as 21% a month. Some 290 patients a month did not attend their scheduled outpatient appointments. The outpatient physiotherapy hours were extended — they now run from 8 a.m. to 6 p.m. — allowing greater patient access and choice of appointment. A text message reminder service to patients attending physiotherapy was introduced and the non-attendance rate was reduced to a low of 10% a month. As a result, it was possible to reduce waiting list times and patients now wait no longer than six weeks for a physiotherapy appointment.

One of the winning projects at the same innovation awards ceremony was St. Vincent's Hospital's neurology department. Previously, the department saw fewer than 3,000 outpatients a year and had long waiting times. Regular cancellation of elective admissions meant many patients with neurological problems ended up being referred to the accident and emergency department and spent long periods on trolleys. The department now runs nine public neurology clinics a week and has put in place a web-based general practitioner direct referral service. In 2006-07, almost 5,300 patients were seen in the clinics. The waiting time for a new patient has fallen from 18 months to less than ten weeks. The time each patient spends with a doctor has doubled. More people are now treated in the clinic instead of being admitted. Fewer patients end up in the accident and emergency unit.

We need to acknowledge these positive service developments and encourage others to adopt similar innovative solutions to make the best use of existing capacity. The total number of outpatient attendances in 2007 was more than 3 million but there was a very high rate, more than 18%, of people who did not attend, while the ratio of new to return attendances is too low — only 1:2.8. This suggests there is already capacity within the system that could be used more effectively.

To drive this type of improvement, we need to empower local decision makers — doctors, nurses, other clinicians and managers — and provide them with good information. Although much of the debate about health reform in recent years has concentrated on structural matters, information is even more important than structures. Among the recommendations about the health service made by the OECD in its recent report about the Irish public service were the following. There needs to be better performance and budgeting information, more activity-based costing and better data collection and utilisation generally across the system. Key performance indicators need to be identified by the Department of Health and Children with the HSE which can incentivise local management and staff to deliver the best solution to improving patient experience while not imposing a major administrative burden on the system. There needs to be a focus on longer-term outcomes, such as improvements in life expectancy, survival rates for cancer treatment or transplants, the number and age profile of elderly people living independently or with limited support in their own homes.

Good information is essential to drive improvements in safety, efficiency, quality, effectiveness and sustainability, and to evaluate the performance of the health system. At national level, we need to continue to improve the service planning process. We need more transparency about spending on specific programmes and care groups and good baseline information about existing services such as waiting times. At local level, we need to provide clinicians and managers with comparative information on actual performance to encourage, support and ultimately require them to deliver better services. The focus has to be on patient services and helping the professionals providing them. One of the critical shortcomings of modern health care around the world is the lack of a consistent ability to get critical clinical information to the doctor or health professional at the point of care. The availability of accurate and timely information is also essential for the Department to be in a position to plan, formulate policy and assess the performance of the health system.

On the subject of the office of the Minister of State with responsibility for children, OMC, and other offices in the Department, the OMC was established within the Department of Health and Children in early 2006. It is designed to bring together policy issues that affect children in areas such as early childhood care and education, youth justice, child welfare and protection, children's and young people's participation, research on children and young people, and cross-cutting initiatives for children. It also has a general strategic oversight of bodies with responsibility for developing and delivering services for children. Its core aim is to ensure an integrated approach to the development of policy and delivery of services for children and, as a result, support the delivery of better outcomes for children.

Following on from the success of the OMC, the Government announced in January this year the establishment of two other offices within the Department: the office for older people and the office for disability and mental health. The main functions of the office for older people will be to develop and support the implementation of a strategy for positive ageing and to bring greater coherence to the formulation of policies affecting older people as well as developing policy and supporting the delivery of health and personal social services for them.

Although substantial progress has been made in recent years in the areas of disability and mental health, much remains to be done. In particular, there is a need to improve co-ordination and communication across different Departments and agencies in their delivery of services to this client group. This will be the main focus of the office for disability and mental health in the coming months. In its recent report, the OECD said that the use of networks within and across organisations will be increasingly important in an integrated public service. It went on to say that Ireland had "made inroads in developing a network approach" through the establishment of the Office of the Minister for Children and, more recently, the office for older people and the office for disability and mental health. In the case of all three offices, the focus will be very much on outcomes and results, on establishing what works best and on encouraging other Departments and agencies to use their existing funding streams and adjust existing services as necessary to get the maximum benefits for the different client groups.

There is evidence of significant improvements in our health services and in health outcomes but we clearly have much more to do. The problems and pressure we face are not unique to this country. The best way of improving services is through a combination of better performance targets which are readily understandable to patients and health care professionals, better information and greater clarity about authority and responsibility at all levels within the health system.

I thank Mr. Scanlan and assume we can publish the statement. I now invite Professor Brendan Drumm to make his opening statement.

Professor Brendan Drumm

I thank the committee for the opportunity to address it. While the health service is the subject of much public debate, it is not often recognised that through the efforts of clinical, administrative and management personnel we are now providing more quality care to more people than ever before. I will take a few moments to illustrate this point.

People in Ireland are healthier than they have ever been and are living longer than at any time in the history of the State. Our life expectancy has stretched by about four years since 1996 — 4.3 years for males and 3.2 for females. Research conducted on a broad scale among people who use the health service shows that satisfaction levels are very high — in the 80% to 90% range depending on the services used. The number of people with medical cards who can avail of free medicines and general practitioner care has reached almost 1.3 million, equivalent to 30% of the population or thereabouts. Some 90% of people now have access to GP services on a 24-hour basis. Last year the out-of-hours services took more than 800,000 calls and 30,000 X-rays and ultrasounds were provided through a direct GP access scheme.

An additional 850 long-stay beds were made available for older people who were not well enough to return home after receiving hospital care. More than 20,000 older people now avail of these types of facilities. Between now and 2013 we are planning to develop 3,000 community-based long stay beds for elderly people, both new and replacement, involving an investment of around €600 million.

The latest data are showing that the average length of hospital stays is being reduced in many hospitals. For example, preliminary data show that at the Mater Hospital the average length of stays has been reduced from 12.5 days in 2007 to nine days now. Primary care teams, where people will get 80% to 90% of their care, are now taking hold and 97 of them are in advanced development. These will continue to grow as we manage to move more people from our community hospital service to working in a primary care team.

Sixty per cent of breast cancer surgical services will be transferred to the eight designated cancer centres this year and 80% will have been transferred by the end of 2009. The shift towards treating more patients on a day case basis continues, and almost half of all hospital patients are now treated in such a way. This is an enormous change from ten years ago. More than 1 million people were seen in outpatient clinics in the first four months of this year, which is an increase of 9.4% on the same time last year. This is an area on which we are very focused for 2008. I accept the statement of the Secretary General that we need to deal with the issue of how many new patients are seen, and not just those who return. We saw almost 400,000 people in emergency departments in the first four months of this year.

Home help services in the community, mainly for older people, are up 6%, with more than 4 million hours delivered already in 2008. The numbers receiving home care packages, which include public health nursing, physiotherapy, occupational therapy and attendance at a day care centre, are ahead by 29% on the same time last year. While it may seem that I am over-stressing these statistics, they are important to illustrate that many parts of the health services are serving the community well. While we have a long way to go with some difficult choices to make, I believe we are making progress and a great number of our staff make an enormous commitment to that progress.

I would now like to turn briefly to the issue of our employment strategy. There is a perception that the HSE is operating a recruitment embargo. This is not the case. There is no recruitment embargo in operation within the HSE. In September 2007 a recruitment pause was introduced, but a derogation process was also put in place to allow critical posts to be filled. Accordingly, recruitment activity and the filling of vacant posts continued right throughout the latter part of 2007. Around 900 derogation requests were processed during that time. The recruitment pause was lifted before the end of 2007.

In January 2008, we established employment groups in the four HSE areas to examine requests to fill vacancies. Our priority within this process is front-line posts. Between January and April these groups approved 2,889 posts and these are at various stages of being filled.

I thank committee members for their attention. We will do our best to answer questions and provide as much information as we can here this morning. If we do not have the information to hand, we will follow up with it as soon as possible. It is in our interests that we give as much information to the committee as possible.

Thank you, Professor. Can we publish your statement?

Professor Brendan Drumm

Yes.

Thank you. I call on Mr. Pat O'Byrne of the National Treatment Purchase Fund to make his opening statement.

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

The National Treatment Purchase Fund was established in 2002. Its role is to purchase treatment, primarily from private hospitals, with the aim of reducing the length of time that public patients have to wait for surgery.

It is worth remembering that in 2002, one of the biggest concerns in the public health system was long waiting times for elective surgical procedures. The fund was set up as a targeted solution to a particular problem. In 2002, the fund treated fewer than 2,000 patients. The NTPF recently reached the milestone of facilitating its 100,000th patient and in 2008, 37,000 public patients will benefit from this initiative.

The NTPF became a statutory body on 1 May 2004. Since mid-2004, the NTPF has responsibility for the collation of national waiting list data for inpatient and day case hospital treatment. As a result, an on-line national patient treatment register has been launched, based on named patients, enabling the NTPF to write directly to them with an offer of treatment. More than 22,000 such letters have been issued to date.

In 2005 and on a pilot basis, the NTPF began arranging outpatient appointments for public patients who had been waiting years in some cases to see a hospital consultant. The provision of outpatient appointments for public patients is one of the bottlenecks in the provision of public hospital services at present. The NTPF continues to provide outpatient appointments on a pilot basis in a number of selected specialties. Over the years 2005 to 2007, approximately 50,000 patients have been contacted and offered appointments at outpatient clinics, with around half of those offered accepting the appointment. The outpatient initiative has worked very well with a very positive feedback from patients.

Under the new proposals for nursing homes, otherwise known as Fair Deal, an extension of the remit of the NTPF is envisaged. It is intended that the fund will negotiate prices which the State will pay to private nursing homes for elderly people who opt for this initiative. Our understanding is that the basis to enable the NTPF perform this function will be included in primary legislation that is being drafted.

We caution against too much emphasis being placed on the number of people waiting for procedures at any given time. At the end of the day, it is not about numbers waiting but the more revealing measure is the length of time that a person has to wait for a procedure. Based on the figures as supplied by hospitals to the national patient treatment register, the average median wait time for a procedure is now 3.2 months. This average is calculated from the first day a patient is placed on an inpatient waiting list following assessment by a hospital consultant.

The overall figures show that for 19 of the 20 most common adult surgical operations, patients are treated within two to five months. This is a significant improvement on the situation in 2002, when typical waiting times of two to five years were common. For eight of the ten most common surgical operations on children, patients receive their treatment within two to five months. This compares with waiting times of two to five years in 2002.

Since the inception of the NTPF, considerable progress can be reported in terms of public patients waiting for hospital treatment. For example, in 1997 approximately 32,000 patients waited more than three months. The population of our country then was about 3.7 million. Today, 21,470 patients, including procedures not included or reported in 1997, are waiting more than three months in a population of 4.3 million. The latest surgical waiting list figures are attached at appendix II, which I have distributed to committee members. It will be seen that there are 7,538 patients waiting between three to six months, 6,473 patients waiting between six and 12 months and 2,155 patients waiting more than 12 months. It is disappointing to the NTPF that there are still patients waiting more than 12 months for surgery. We ask hospitals to concentrate especially on those patients so that they can be provided with treatment. In today's Ireland there is no need for patients to wait more than 12 months for surgery.

The increasing complexity with which the NTPF must deal is evident on a number of fronts. It has been suggested, for instance, that the NTPF deals only with minor cases but this is not true. Inpatient activity now encompasses all the surgical specialties with waiting lists from minor to major surgery. The vast majority of NTPF activity takes place in Ireland, with less than 1% of referrals going abroad.

I have provided a table listing annual activity details over the past three years — 2006, 2007 and proposed for 2008. I will not go through them. As a matter of policy, the NTPF can purchase a maximum of 10% of its overall capacity from the public hospital system where this does not adversely affect core services. The purchasing of such capacity is necessary so as not to exclude patients whose current surgical needs are best met within the public hospital system.

The financial allocation of the NTPF equates to approximately 0.5% of public health spend. The wages and salaries of NTPF staff amount to 2% of our budget. One of the core principles of the NTPF is to secure value for money. NTPF prices are influenced by factors such as prevailing insurance prices, capacity availability, complexity requirements and geographic considerations. The NTPF negotiates overall prices for procedures with individual private hospitals, which includes pre and post-operative consults, consultant fees, hospital costs and so on. Reference points used by the NTPF in compiling prices are public hospital case mix costs, estimated insurers' prices, consultant fees and prices proposed by peer hospitals.

Turning to the 2006 accounts, a review of the annual financial statements for the NTPF for 2006 provides evidence that our annual objectives have been achieved. In managing the fund there are three interdependent targets that must be controlled. These are as follows: that the volume of patients treated is in accordance with the service level plan agreed with the Department of Health and Children; that there are no significant surplus funds at year end; and that liabilities for any patients treated and not yet paid for at year end are within agreed parameters.

While there are several requests and pressures on the fund, the NTPF has developed a series of checks and balances to ensure our patient activity is in keeping with our financial resources. In particular, the process whereby the NTPF places an order for each patient treatment in advance means that overall patient activity is scheduled out of a defined budget. This control, together with a prediction of treatment and payment patterns, is the key management tool used to control and balance the NTPF's finances and patient activity. For 2006, therefore, we can see that the patient numbers treated were in accordance with our service plan, no significant surplus funds were held by the board at year end; and the average treatment liabilities for 2006 were within the limit for patient liabilities agreed with the Department of Health and Children.

The care the NTPF offers to public patients is of a high quality, is faster and is consultant delivered. That is our raison d’être and something on which we remain continuously focused. Our systems and processes have been established with this at their core and are maintained and developed as dictated by patient needs. All patients provided with surgery under the NTPF initiative are surveyed. Of those who return our patient satisfaction survey, which is approximately 30% to 35% of patients, satisfaction with this scheme is consistently at 98% to 99%.

We will continue to focus on reducing waiting times for public patients on waiting lists. We will continue to provide alternatives for public patients waiting on waiting lists. Through the patient treatment register, we will continue to provide patients with information to enable them make decisions on quicker access to hospital treatment. The NTPF is a successful targeted solution to a particular problem. Its management and controls are designed to achieve its parallel aims of shortening waiting times for public patients and achieving value for public money.

May we publish your statement?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

Yes.

I call Deputy Cuffe.

I welcome the delegation. I do not underestimate the challenge they face in their work. I was struck by Professor Keane's words at a briefing in the Oireachtas a few days ago on the need to bring about change to challenge vested interests and to overcome inertia in all parts of the health service. I certainly do not underestimate the challenge.

It is all very well to talk about the better use of indicators and increased integration. All of this must happen but it must result in clear improvements on the ground. Within my area of Dún Laoghaire, the concerns continue, including concern about hygiene in the hospital at Loughlinstown, where one sees rotting skirting boards when one walks the corridors. People are concerned, in particular older people who are really concerned about going to a significant local hospital to receive care and who have told me they would not go to hospital because of these concerns. While there have been significant improvements in many areas, talking to people on the ground, it is clear huge concerns remain which need to be addressed.

These concerns are echoed in the correspondence I receive about the outsourcing of cytology to Quest Diagnostics in the USA. There is concern that we in Ireland perhaps simply do not have the capacity to deal with routine analysis in a planned and coherent way. There is also a concern that we might see further outsourcing, whether it be in blood testing or other areas, because we are not investing the resources into improving core services at home.

Words like "trust" and "confidence" are crucial. While we need integration, we need simple things like getting a local bus service to come to Loughlinstown hospital in a planned manner so that people can feel they will get to hospital for an appointment. While I was heartened by the reference to the text messaging of clients so they know the time of their appointments, a huge amount of work remains to be done.

I will begin by dealing with the National Treatment Purchase Fund and go on to deal with the contract. The NTPF kicked off with much fanfare and enthusiasm six years ago. At the beginning there was significant participation in the service, with 23 participating hospitals. There seems to have been something of a pull-back from that. I understand that of the UK hospitals, only one remains in the scheme. Can Mr. O'Byrne explain the reason for the loss of the hospitals in the UK?

On the issue of purchasing surgery in public hospitals, is there a possibility that a patient might end up being operated on privately in the same hospital where they were being treated, and by the same consultant? Is there any way of quantifying this or explaining whether it is happening? Does the fund maintain a panel of approved consultants? If so, what are the mechanisms for consultant inclusion and are there rules to prevent self-referral of public patients by them, and how does the NTPF monitor these controls?

Why are some of the UK hospitals being lost? Is there a danger that a patient could end up back in the same hospital when being treated privately? What rules does the National Treatment Purchase Fund have on self-referral?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

If I can take the first question first, our policy in the NTPF always has been to treat people as locally as possible. There is no point in sending people to the United Kingdom or further afield if they can be treated in the locality, providing that capacity is available, the quality is sufficiently good and we can do a deal on prices. That has been our policy. In parallel with that policy, as much greater capacity has entered the private hospital system in recent years, the need to send people abroad is no longer as pressing as it was at the outset of this scheme.

Did the NTPF drop them or did they drop the NTPF?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

Neither. I have not dropped anything. I simply have not been sending as many people abroad as heretofore. They are not dropped as such and if I need them, they still are available. However, I will not send people abroad unless I am obliged to.

Can Mr. O'Byrne provide evidence in this regard? I seek a list of hospitals to which he refers people, by number of patients.

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

We can. Rather than list off all the hospitals, the newer private hospitals——

Members would like to hear the names of hospitals.

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

I can provide that for members and will adopt a geographical approach. In Dublin we refer patients to the Mater Private, St. Vincent's Hospital and the Hermitage Medical Clinic. Moving further afield, we refer patients to Whitfield Clinic, Waterford, Aut Even Hospital, Kilkenny, Shanakiel Private Hospital, Cork, and the Bon Secours hospitals in Cork and Tralee. We refer patients to the Galway Clinic, the Bon Secours Hospital, Galway, St. Joseph's Hospital, Sligo, and North West Independent Hospital, Ballykelly, County Derry. We refer patients to the Allclear Clinic in Belfast and the Hillsborough Private Clinic, which is not too distant from Belfast. At present we refer people to one hospital in the United Kingdom, a BMI Healthcare hospital in Basingstoke. While we also had arrangements previously with some BUPA hospitals, I no longer need to send people to the United Kingdom in the same numbers as were necessary in the past.

Will Mr. O'Byrne provide the figures for each hospital?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

I can.

Will he?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

Yes, I will.

He should.

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

Yes, I can.

Can he do so now?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

No, I do not have the figures to hand.

I am sure Deputy Cuffe agrees the information provided thus far is useless to members trying to judge who is absorbing the demand from the National Treatment Purchase Fund.

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

In what way?

Mr. O'Byrne has stated that only 1% of the fund's referrals are to public hospitals.

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

No, I stated that only 1% of referrals go abroad, that is, outside the country.

No, the statement provided states that 10% of——

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

That is correct. By policy, we can refer no more than 10% of our referrals to the public hospital system.

The figure is 10%.

Mr. O'Byrne is making the point that capacity has come on-stream within the State.

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

Yes, in the private system. Are members clear on this point?

Yes, I am satisfied with that.

However, we would like figures to justify the claim that only 10% of referrals go to the public system and 90% go to private hospitals. Mr. O'Byrne should provide the committee with a breakdown for each hospital.

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

Yes, I can do that. That is okay.

The other questions raised by the Deputy concerned the consultants who are working for the National Treatment Purchase Fund. From the outset, we have insisted that consultants who work for the fund must at least be registered on the specialist register of the Medical Council. This is the gold standard applied to consultants in Ireland at present and we insist on it. All consultants are registered or are entitled to be so registered on the specialist register of the Medical Council. We insist on that.

The third question related to consultants doing their own work. We have insisted from the outset that wherever possible, consultants should not do their own work. Otherwise, essentially one is merely moving the waiting list up the road to the private hospital. This happens in the vast majority of cases. However, our medical advice is that this is not possible in a small number of cases. This is because at present, some specialties are represented in Ireland by only a small number of consultants and, within certain specialties, only a small number of consultants are capable of doing some of the work in question. Consequently, sending some patients away from where the specialist can deal with them would not constitute safe medicine.

The question is whether this is happening. Is Mr. O'Byrne stating that a consultant can see someone publically and refer that person back to himself or herself privately?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

No, it does not happen. At present, one either opts for public or private medicine. If one opts for public treatment, one can be dealt with either in the public hospital system or under the treatment purchase scheme. However, people are not going between public and private hospitals under our scheme. They are dealt with in either a private system or the public system.

I am still unclear on this point. The nub of my question pertains to a public patient whose public hospital does not have sufficient hours to allow the patient to be seen. He or she then is referred privately and comes back to the same consultant. Is Mr. O'Byrne stating that this scenario simply does not happen? He used the phrase, "wherever possible", in his opening statement.

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

There are some cases in which patients can be seen by the same consultant in the public system. However, if what they require cannot be performed by other consultants, they can, at times and in a small number of cases, be seen by the same consultant under our initiative as well.

What rules does the National Treatment Purchase Fund have in place to prevent the cherry-picking of such work? While limits exist on the percentage of hours worked publically and privately, these appear to be exceeded in many cases.

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

First, the National Treatment Purchase Fund does not negotiate with consultants at all. We negotiate with hospitals. In the vast majority of cases, the consultants who perform the work are not the same consultants whom a patient would see in the public system. However, as I stated, it can happen in a small number of cases that the same consultant treats a patient under our scheme in the private system because our medical advice has been that someone else should not do the work given the patient's medical condition.

Is Mr. O'Byrne concerned about the limits being exceeded for private patients? I refer to the 20% rule.

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

As I stated, 90% of the work carried out under the NTPF is carried out in the private hospital system and what happens in respect of the 20:80 ratio is not a matter for the NTPF.

I still lack sufficient clarity.

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

I am unsure whether I understand exactly the Deputy's point.

Can the NTPF supply evidence on referrals that are made from public hospitals to the hospitals nominated by it? Can Mr. O'Byrne, for example, provide figures for 2007 on cases in which the same consultant treated the same patient in the public system and subsequently in the private system? Does Mr. O'Byrne have such figures to justify his statement?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

Yes, I can provide such figures to the committee.

That would be useful. It makes a mockery of the public health system if someone is referred from being a public patient to being treated privately when the same individual provides the private treatment and makes more money out of the State for so doing. This is particularly the case if the percentage allocation of bed space is being exceeded in hospitals on a routine basis.

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

First, we do not interfere with what goes on in the public hospital system. I take it that consultants are working in the public system for whatever length of time for which they are rostered. We do not police this. However, there are some——

Who does? Do the hospitals do this themselves?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

Yes.

What oversight does Mr. O'Byrne have in this regard?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

I have none. However——

Does anyone?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

Yes, the hospitals do.

Do the health services?

Mr. Michael Scanlan

If I understand the Deputy correctly, the core point he is making is that if I have a consultant working in what I will call a public hospital who is doing less public work than he or she is expected or required to do under his or her contract, as a result there is a longer waiting list for public patients and one of the patients on that list ends up through the NTPF being rewarded by the State.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

That is a very fair and valid point. It takes us into the issue of the new contract, about which the Deputy said he would ask some questions. Under the new contract, we have greater clarity, as the Comptroller and Auditor General said. It is not quite as simple as 80-20 and I will explain whenever the Deputy wants me to. The key issue on which Professor Drumm and I insisted is a system of measurement and absolute transparency about it this time around.

That is good to hear.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

Whenever the Deputy wants to pick that up, that might help.

I will come back to that.

I hope I am not interfering too much in respect of Deputy Cuffe's contribution. I am only trying to help. There was supposed to be a system of measurement under the old system. The Department spent €10 million on an initiative.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

The €10 million is probably the clinicians in management piece of the report about which the Comptroller and Auditor General was speaking.

There was a system in place under the old scheme and the evidence we have from the Department's own correspondence is that in many hospitals, the 20% was seriously breached. We cannot get the information on a consultant-by-consultant basis because the Department cannot supply it to us. However, on a specialty-by-specialty basis, it has been breached in a range of hospitals up to as far as 46% and 48% in some hospitals.

A system was supposed to be in place under the old contract. It did not work in many cases. The Department is appointing a clinical director in each hospital to monitor private practice under the new supposed contract. What guarantees do we have that under the new scheme, the system will work?

Mr. Michael Scanlan

If the Chairman wants at this point to get into the consultant contract——

Mr. Scanlan referred to it arising from the reply to Deputy Cuffe.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

I do not mind. That is what I was inviting. Whenever the Chairman wants to get into that issue——

Perhaps I will return to that issue and end up with a couple of points on the NTPF. The average cost of inpatient treatments was €4,000 per case in 2006. I have information comparing the various years and the spend per treatment. That table is somewhat clouded by the inclusion of the consultant referrals for the latter two years, 2005 and 2006. Could the delegation tell me how the NTPF inpatient costs compared with those paid by private insurers and whether it has done any benchmarking against such treatments elsewhere in the UK or the rest of Europe for common treatments such as angiograms, cataracts or hip replacements?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

As the Deputy will notice, in respect of private health insurance, very little information is publicly available on the overall costs of prices that private insurers pay per procedure. Where we can get information, we try to compare them. One of our biggest benchmarks is with the case mix costs in the public hospital system. There are swings and roundabouts in it but, overall, we compare fairly well with the prices we charge.

However, the NTPF does not have a publishable benchmark of data from elsewhere?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

No, we do not publish our prices for commercial reasons.

I would have thought that it could be difficult for the consumer or taxpayer to be sure we are getting value for money.

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

Except that we are audited year on year by the Comptroller and Auditor General. All these prices are open.

That is part of the process about which I am trying to get information. After the three-month threshold has expired, does the NTPF always contact the person on the waiting list with an alternative treating hospital?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

We do not do so at this point because our concentration this year and generally is on those who are longest on the waiting list. We are coming at waiting lists from the other end, from the point of view of those waiting longest, and are trying to deal with those first and work our way back. Those patients whom we have contacted to date by and large have been waiting more than 12 months for surgery.

Is there any point in the patient contacting the NTPF once they have been waiting for more than three months?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

There is. In the vast majority of cases, we can deal with people who have been waiting more than three months. We are not an open-ended scheme. We must deal with things and we find that the best way of dealing with it is to come at it from the point of view of those waiting the longest, as is our mandate.

None the less, Mr. O'Byrne is still saying that it is worthwhile making contact to see where one is?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

Absolutely. By and large, the people who contact us are dealt with in a short space of time once they are three months on the waiting list.

However, it puts the onus back on the patient to ensure they are not lost on the list.

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

It does to a certain extent. It is something we promote. We try to give patients information. Our philosophy has been to empower patients by giving them information to contact us.

I note that and the fact that the NTPF's website has a list of procedures as long as one's arm and a wealth of data on it. Is that website being used, given that the NTPF appears to have spent several hundred thousand euro on getting it up and running?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

It has. The figures for last year show that there were about 1 million hits on it.

Does Mr. O'Byrne know how many individual users accessed it? Hits are one thing.

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

I can get that information for the Deputy.

I would quite grateful if he could supply me with that data because I had 100,000 hits on my own website but I doubt if 100,000 people accessed it. In respect of the Internet, it is very important to know how many computers accessed it rather than how many hits it received. I presume the NTPF has tracking data for hits, websites and computers so that we simply know whether the money was well spent or not.

In respect of the NTPF, there is a net liability on the balance sheet of more than €12.5 million, mainly attributable to accruals of €13.9 million. This seems to be a very high amount for two months' payments and seems to have been carried over all the time. Could Mr. O'Byrne tell me what that is?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

I do not accept that it is high considering the type of business we are in. One must consider the timescale that elapses from the time that somebody is first contacted to when they walk out the hospital door after their operation. The cycle is normally two to three months. At the end of any given year, there will always be liabilities in this type of business. Two months is the average time that elapses from the time a patient has the operation until the time the invoice comes in and the paperwork is cleared up. At the end of any given year, there will always be this overlap.

What is the NTPF's payment practice in this area? Does it pay within one month of receipt of invoices?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

By and large, we pay within 30 days of receipt of invoices.

We must allow time for my interjections.

In fairness, the Chairman has had a few interventions himself.

I have allowed the Deputy time for those interventions so he is playing in injury time now.

I would have thought that I was only about 15 minutes in.

No, the Deputy is 22 minutes in.

I am watching the clock. Can I go on to the consultants contract?

The Deputy has two minutes. We agreed beforehand so the Deputy knows the agreement we had and I have allowed him for my interventions.

A point I wanted to make earlier was that while we have seen a €1 billion increase in the budget for the HSE year on year over recent years, we are seeing a dramatic rise in the amount surrendered each year. Perhaps Professor Drumm might briefly comment on that before I ask Mr. Scanlan?

Mr. Liam Woods

The amount surrendered on the 2006 Vote included a return, the most substantial element of which was the health repayments scheme. The largest component of the returned figure was health repayments scheme funding that was not spent. Obviously, we have been paying that for the two years since then so it was simply to do with the time when the scheme was introduced.

The other substantial issue affecting it was the underspending of capital in 2006. The figure there was €114 million. We fully expended our capital in 2007.

These were the main contributory factors. One was technical in nature due to a specific provision of €360 million for the health repayment scheme. Given that it only commenced payment in the latter part of 2006, those resources were separately covered and returned to the Exchequer.

With regard to the contract, the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Mary Harney, made a statement two weeks ago on the positive benefits of the new scheme, referring to it as a new era. However, the report on the medical consultants' contract expresses significant concerns about the previous contract lacking the definition or clarity to allow for smooth implementation. Can we be assured that the bulk of the difficulties identified in the previous contract can be overcome by the new contract?

Mr. Michael Scanlan

I would not be brave enough to say that the new contract will solve everything. A point made by the Comptroller and Auditor General in his introduction was that the contract can only do so much, after which a great deal rests on how it is implemented. We addressed a couple of issues to bring greater clarity to the contract, including the public-private measurement referred to by Deputy Cuffe. The Chairman's points about the balance that was supposed to be achieved under the previous contract were correct. It was not explicitly stated or specifically in respect of the individual consultant. Rather, it was stated in terms of bed designations.

The Chairman was correct about the information, to which we can revert if he wishes. That information was available to us when we were entering the talks. I remember saying across the table that I wanted a contract that was strong in terms of the individual's obligations and requirements. I needed that on the one hand but if one is stepping into implementation on the other hand, the clinical director must lead a team of consultants to manage it sensibly. One must do the two together.

A final question from Deputy Cuffe.

The previous contract referred to work schedules. In any line of business activity, one would hope that the employee would be able to give his or her employer a clear indication of what work he or she carried out in a given period. I presume the consultants will give their work schedules to the Department, but what will the latter do with them? What type of data will be collated and what type of direction can it give to the consultant to ensure that things happen smoothly and that the required hours are worked in the right areas?

Mr. Michael Scanlan

The Deputy has asked a question about the matter I was about to discuss. I would place a caveat on the focus on hours in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. Work scheduling under the previous contract was not designed to measure the hours commitment. Rather, it was designed to ensure that, if a consultant planned to deliver a service, be it outpatient or whatever, the hospital would know so that it could manage its resources. This time, we have brought clarity to the hours and agreed 37 hours, although the Comptroller and Auditor General's point was on 33 to 39 hours. I will make no apologies for the fact that while I stated throughout the talks that we needed the ultimate right to verify the delivery of 37 hours, the contracts we have negotiated mean that, unless there are really exceptional circumstances, the consultant will only work on our public hospital sites. The issue for people at that level is not where they put in hours. Rather, at issue are the questions of whether we are getting equity in terms of what consultants are doing on our sites and are we doing it efficiently.

I see the schedule commitments in a slightly different way than just measuring and tracking hours. I take the point concerning how to establish something without data, but we were well aware of the practice that emerged in the UK. When it negotiated new contracts that would pay consultants on the basis of what they produced, it found that the bill increased very significantly. I would be delighted if someone measured my hours. There are many consultants who, if we wanted to measure their hours, would tell us to pay them for more. It is a case of putting work in on the site, ensuring that one gives what one is supposed to give to the public patient and doing so efficiently under clinical leadership.

The Department will then compare different regions.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

One should then get into comparing what one is getting. I will revert to my earlier statement. While I take the points made, it would involve our starting to compare what we are getting in different hospitals. Professor Drumm may say something in this regard.

I thank all of those who made presentations. I wish to raise two issues that have remained since our last meeting in February and in respect of which I have not received satisfactory responses from the HSE. Late last year, I was contacted by the families of some of the clients of St. Peter's Centre in Castlepollard. People with special needs are in an inappropriate and old-fashioned institution and their families could not understand how, despite the health board purchasing three community houses for the purpose of moving the clients into the community, a more appropriate setting, the houses were still vacant at the end of 2007. I told Professor Drumm that I had written to the HSE over a number of months and failed to get a response. Only after his attendance in February did I get a response, although not a full one. There was a lot of back and forth looking for that information.

We now know the situation. The health board bought three community houses in Castlepollard in 2001 at a cost of €640,000. Seven years later and the those houses remain vacant. What explanation can Professor Drumm provide to the families of clients who are still in an inappropriate, old-fashioned and Dickensian institution? What excuse can he provide for not bringing the community houses on stream and for leaving them idle for a seven-year period in which they have deteriorated physically?

Professor Brendan Drumm

I will ask Ms McGuinness, who is dealing with this issue, to respond.

Ms Laverne McGuinness

Deputy Shortall is correct in that three houses were purchased in 2001, but it was through an arrangement. The HSE does not own the houses. Rather, it was done by way of grant and an agreement. Some €150,000 is required to refurbish the houses, which is relatively small money.

The Deputy is correct in that the patients should not be in institutionalised care. This is the ethos of Vision for Change. When we move patients from institutionalised care into a more appropriate setting in smaller units in the community, there is a higher staffing requirement. The projected cost of the move was €1.5 million. The houses will be opened, but we are determining from where in institutionalised care we can reassign resources. A plan will be put in place to open the three houses as part of our mental health facilities.

This is a part of a wider issue, as a number of mental health facilities throughout the country provide large-scale institutionalised care. The overall ethos is to put people into community settings where practical. We have achieved much in this vein over the years, going from approximately 19,000 in the 1960s to 3,000 currently. A full programme is under way. However, the Deputy is correct in that the houses were acquired by the former health board in 2001. Under the HSE's programme, we will move towards putting the facilities——

There is a serious problem when the health service purchases properties for €640,000 and leaves them lying idle for seven years. There seems to be a serious mismatch between capital funding and day-to-day funding. Why can the HSE not marry them?

Ms Laverne McGuinness

The Deputy is correct. One would question whether the houses should have been purchased without a business plan in the first instance. There were no arrangements in place to facilitate the transfer of patients from institutionalised care into the community setting. This is not the current situation. A purchase or acquisition of any property cannot be allowed unless an appropriate business plan is in place, we have identified the resourcing requirements and the purchase or acquisition is part of the service plan or a wider care plan, be it under the category of mental health or disabilities.

That is cold comfort to the families affected by this incredible decision and what seems to be an incredible waste of public money.

I wish to address a question on palliative care to Professor Drumm. All of us have received correspondence from the Irish Hospice Foundation on the appalling situation regarding frontline palliative care staff. We are discussing the 2006 Estimates. In 2006 funding was made available for the employment of more than 50 frontline staff. We are informed that in the middle of 2008 only half of these posts have been filled. The Irish Hospice Foundation has provided us with the details. A total of 51.5 whole-time equivalent posts were to be provided in 2006. All of us as public representatives are conscious of the major need for hospice care, particularly palliative care services. Only 26.5 of these posts have been filled; a further 25 remain vacant, despite the fact that funding was provided and allocated by the Department in 2006. In the midlands 14 posts were to be created, of which five have been filled and nine remain unfilled. In the north east only one of the 4.5 posts has been filled and 3.5 remain unfilled. We have major gaps throughout the country with regard to palliative care. Will Professor Drumm explain why the money earmarked for palliative care services in 2006 was not spent? When will we see the approved posts filled?

Professor Brendan Drumm

This issue of money applied but not all spent over a number of years for specific developments will be raised with regard to many parts of the service. Ms McGuinness will deal with the specifics of the palliative care issue. There is absolutely no doubt that in a number of parts of the service development money was allocated and used for other purposes within the HSE to balance its Vote.

Was the money used for other purposes?

Professor Brendan Drumm

Absolutely.

I am asking Professor Drumm for justification for this. Given the huge demand for palliative care services, how can he justify failing to spend the money allocated for particular posts in this area where it was supposed to be spent?

Professor Brendan Drumm

We have seen a continuous increase in the number of activities throughout the system. We have continued to provide services significantly above our service plan for a number of years. This work has to be either stopped or funded. We must prioritise what we do. We can easily provide money for mental health or palliative care services by stopping other things but we must make a judgment call when, for instance, the number of emergency admissions increases because of population growth and total hospital activity increases beyond the service plan on whether to do this work or palliative care work. We end up trying to balance the resources as best we can to continue to provide what we hope are the optimal services with the money allocated.

A lot of us on this side would question the HSE's priorities if it decided to take money earmarked for palliative care services and spent it in other areas. We could be here for a week speaking about a waste of resources within the HSE. Professor Drumm does not seem to be able to provide any justification for the decision not to spend the money.

Professor Brendan Drumm

We can give the Deputy the specifics on palliative care services which we are working on putting in place. I am making a general point.

No, I am asking the professor about the 2006 allocation and why the HSE failed to fill half of the posts approved.

Professor Brendan Drumm

We can give the Deputy information on what happened in 2006 also but because it will continue to arise today, I will make a specific point. It is easy for everybody to state we got it wrong and that the money should go to palliative care services. However, if it does, we must take it from somewhere else or stop doing something else.

Announcements on funding were made by the Minister for Health and Children and the Taoiseach but the HSE decided to spend the money elsewhere. Did the Department of Finance give its consent?

Professor Brendan Drumm

Ms McGuinness will deal with the specifics first.

Ms Laverne McGuinness

As regards the posts approved, Deputy Shortall is right, as 70% of the posts are in place. I have the specifics which I can provide for the Deputy if they would be useful to her. A total of 16.6 are in place for nursing staff and 12.5 for paramedical staff. I can go through this——

How many posts remain vacant?

Ms Laverne McGuinness

There are 28 clinical posts in place. Management and administration posts, as well as support posts, are associated with them.

How many remain vacant?

Ms Laverne McGuinness

A total of 30% remain vacant.

Professor Brendan Drumm

Some of them are management posts.

Ms Laverne McGuinness

Some of them are management and administrative posts.

Professor Brendan Drumm

For which we are criticised all the time.

The figures are very different from the ones provided by the Irish Hospice Foundation.

Professor Brendan Drumm

We can give the Deputy the figures.

I do not see why an organisation which is so well regarded and provides such a good service must come to public representatives to raise its concerns. Will Professor Drumm agree to meet the Irish Hospice Foundation to deal with this issue and resolve it satisfactorily?

Ms Laverne McGuinness

The Deputy is right in what she said. We are working with the voluntary providers with regard to a multi-annual plan. This work is well under way and I have a draft which will be available on 19 June. We have also carried out an audit of palliative care services. Four area committees have been established. We have identified where there are gaps nationally. Some areas do not have appropriate palliative care services. In other programmes such as in the disability sector we have seen that the best way to address the matter is on a multi-annual basis. We are working with the Irish Hospice Foundation on the voluntary side.

The Irish Hospice Foundation came to us with certain information which the HSE disputes. Will the HSE and the Irish Hospice Foundation sit down together? Will the delegation give an undertaking that the HSE will meet the Irish Hospice Foundation within the next month to address these issues?

Ms Laverne McGuinness

Of course.

I thank Ms McGuinness. The Irish Hospice Foundation should not have to approach the Minister for Health and Children to secure a meeting with the HSE.

Ms Laverne McGuinness

That is not quite correct. The decision to undertake the plan was taken in conjunction with the Minister for Health and Children, the HSE and bodies such as the Irish Hospice Foundation, the Irish Cancer Society and the Irish Association of Palliative Care——

They have not had a meeting or a response on it.

Ms Laverne McGuinness

They have met. Meetings are arranged.

A meeting within the next month might resolve it. I wish to move on to the main issue before us.

On an important question asked by the Deputy, can the HSE move money from one Vote to another on matters announced by Ministers and the Taoiseach without getting the consent of the Department of Finance? Did the HSE obtain the consent of that Department? I will also put a question to the Department of Finance officials. Were any approaches made on the reallocation of moneys in the Estimates voted on and passed by the Dáil? Did the Department of Finance have any involvement in any of this?

Mr. Tom Heffernan

I shall try to explain the role of the Department of Finance, which is to administer the funds allocated within the Estimate-Vote structure. We endeavour to do this through the exercise of control through the subhead structure of the Vote. The subhead structure which applies since the time of the establishment of the HSE is very low in terms of numbers and at a very high aggregate level. There are, essentially, three subheads, one dealing with administration, subhead B dealing with services, although the vast bulk of the money is allocated on a geographical basis, and also a capital subhead. Our ability to administer controls in the sense of approving the transfer of resources within the service delivery of the HSE is restricted to the right of approval within the subhead structure. The HSE delivers its services in accordance with a service plan and is primarily held to account by the Department of Health and Children with regard to this.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

What Mr. Heffernan has stated about the Vote is true. This is partly why I made the point about the need for much greater transparency in how we allocate funding by care group and by service in order that we can see it. However, Professor Drumm and I spoke about the experience in 2006 and 2007 and this year there is another way of managing the issue. It does not make the decision any easier but it brings clarity. This year development money cannot be spent for another purpose without the specific delegated sanction of the Minister for Finance which we all require, even when the money is voted by the Oireachtas.

This year, it is conditional that the development money cannot be spent for another purpose without specific sanction, which may answer the Chairman's question. The sanction is in place now. However, the issue of what one does when there is a problem elsewhere still arises.

Mr. Tom Heffernan

If I might just add to the Secretary General's comments. The Department of Finance published in the revised Estimates volume, 2008, a revised Vote structure for the HSE for information purposes which will break down the allocation of resources in the Estimates more by care group and will increase the transparency and accountability, when implemented.

I would like to move on to the main item before us today, namely the consultant contract and the Comptroller and Auditor General's report of 2007 on that contract. While I appreciate that there are always urgent, immediate issues in the health service and indeed, those in charge in the Department and the HSE like to talk about what might happen in the future, it is important to look at what has been happening in the recent past. That was the purpose of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, completed last year. He looked at ten years of the current consultant contract and examined performance on that. It is fair to say that his findings in respect of that contract are fairly damning of the Department of Health and Children and the HSE.

A basic element of any contract of employment is that there is agreement on the number of hours that an employee works, but there was not even agreement on that issue. The HSE claims that the consultants were obliged to work 39 hours while the consultants argued that they only had to work 33 per week.

The Comptroller and Auditor General found that there were supposed to be measures in place to monitor the work of consultants to ensure that they were in compliance with their contract but there were none in place at all, either on behalf of the Department or the HSE. The contract envisaged the production of schedules to show what hours the consultants were working. While most consultants did have schedules at the start, when they took up their posts initially, there was no mechanism in place, at HSE or individual hospital level, to monitor whether that was actually the case and there was no review of the schedules at all.

We are also told that there was serious and general lack of information available in hospitals which meant that managers could not satisfy themselves that the consultants were actually meeting their contractual commitments. In respect of the case mix and the 20% limit that is supposed to apply, there was no system in place to monitor that within hospitals. It took this committee some time to get information relating to the kind of case-mix work that is actually going on in hospitals. The consultants were supposed to do a maximum of 20% private work but when one examines the actual activity across all of the hospitals, one sees that it has been exceeded in every area. It has not been exceeded to a slight extent, but very significantly in some areas.

I ask the representatives from the Department of Health and Children and the HSE to account for the fact that there has been a complete failure to supervise the consultant contracts over the past ten years.

Professor Brendan Drumm

With regard to the consultant contract that was in place, I would fully agree with the Comptroller and Auditor General and Deputy Shortall that it was not managed in a way that delivered ideally, from the public's perspective. In fact, for the HSE it became an absolute priority, from the time of its establishment, to put in place a new consultant contract. It proved extraordinarily difficult and both the HSE and the Department found it to be a long drawn out process but that was because we held to a very rigid view as to how it needed to work in the future.

The contract in itself will deliver nothing if it is not allied to a very detailed performance measurement system. That system was not ——

I am not talking about the new contract but the existing one and am asking Professor Drumm to account for the fact that there was little or no supervision of consultants' contracts over the past ten years. I would like a reply from Professor Drumm on that and also from the Department of Health and Children.

Professor Brendan Drumm

Unless one allies a contract to a very accurate performance measurement system, it becomes extremely difficult ——

There was little or no performance measurement system.

Professor Brendan Drumm

The HSE has established a very detailed performance measurement system and one ——

Why was there none for the past ten years?

Professor Brendan Drumm

I cannot answer that.

If Professor Drumm cannot answer it, then perhaps the Department of Health and Children can.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

I would start by saying that I did not read this report as saying either that there was an absolute failure or that it was setting out to look backwards just for the sake of it. I read this ——

I never said just for the sake of looking backwards.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

All I am saying is that I read the report as saying that it was examining how the existing contract was working as a way of helping us to negotiate a better contract in the future. That is important.

In terms of, if the Deputy wishes, looking backwards ——

I object to that term. We have a report before us on an investigation carried out by the Comptroller and Auditor General last year in respect of the supervision of consultants' contracts, which cost this State a considerable amount of money and have been a major factor in terms of the serious shortcomings in our health service. We are talking about that report today and I am asking Mr. Scanlan to account for the Department of Health and Children's stewardship and why the Comptroller and Auditor Generalfound that there was little or no supervision of the consultants’ contracts over the past ten years.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

I did not mean ——

I object to Mr. Scanlan's use of the pejorative term "looking backwards". We have this report before us and I am asking him to account for his Department's performance.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

I withdraw the term "backwards" then. I did not mean it in a pejorative sense. I am just saying that when we received the report, particularly at the time it was published, we took it as reaffirming what we were trying to achieve in the negotiations.

In terms of accounting for our stewardship in the past, I would have to say a number of things. The contract was negotiated in an industrial relations forum. It was not perfect, any more than I would pretend that the existing contract is perfect. We did not spend all we spent negotiating and get exactly what we wanted. I would not accept, at the same time, that the old contract was so lacking in specificity that it could not be implemented and could not have been monitored better.

When one talks about the issue of public and private practice, there is a bit of both in there. The old contract did not apply the 80:20 ratio to the individual consultant. If my memory serves me correctly, it said that the public to private ratio would reflect the bed designations. Those bed designations vary from location to location and specialty to specialty. The 80:20 rule did not apply to every individual. When one looks at actual variations in the practice, one could argue, with legitimacy, that those variations are what one would expect to see on the basis of the contract. I then admit, straight up, that the overall private practice ratio under the old contract exceeded what the contract said should have been delivered.

It far exceeded it.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

Absolutely. It far exceeded it.

What was the Department doing about that?

Mr. Michael Scanlan

I suppose we were looking to the health boards to manage it. What we had was a contract ——

Mr. Scanlan is passing the buck.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

No.

The Department is ultimately responsible for ensuring the health service functions properly but it just takes a completely hands-off approach. In fact, in his presentation today, Mr. Scanlan did not even make any reference to the report before us, the main item on the agenda.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

That is a little unfair because I was not sure what items would come up on the agenda. Having said that, I am quite happy to deal with this issue. I am not trying to pass the buck. To be fair to Deputies, the issue of the roles of the various actors in this business also arose at our last meeting. Ultimately, implementation in the past was a matter for the health boards and implementation now is a matter for the HSE. It is legitimate for the Department to say that. It does not mean I am washing my hands of it. It means that we have two roles to play. One is to bring greater clarity in terms of what we expect and the other is to check if we are getting what we expect.

On a point of order, Mr. Scanlan said that in the past, implementation was the function of the health boards. That is not the case. The Department of Health and Children and the Accounting Officer responsible for the implementation of the health budget was Mr. Scanlan or his predecessor. Now, responsibility has moved to the HSE. The Accounting Officer was always in the Department, which meant that the Department was always responsible while having its agent on the ground. The Accounting Officer in the Department was responsible until Professor Drumm's organisation was established. The Department had more direct responsibility then.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

I understand the Deputy's point but I spoke about ——

Mr. Scanlan gave the impression that the Department was not responsible for implementation but it was until the establishment of the HSE. That is all I am saying. Mr. Scanlan cannot pin it all down to the health boards. Is it correct that the Secretary General in the Department of Health and Children was the Accounting Officer for the health budget until the establishment of the HSE?

Mr. Michael Scanlan

Yes.

Then the Secretary General was responsible.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

Two separate issues arise.

I apologise for interrupting.

Is it relevant?

Mr. Michael Scanlan

It is very relevant. I accept that my predecessor was the Accounting Officer for the Vote but operational delivery of health services was a matter for health boards and hospitals under law. That is the only point I was making. The Department could not run it, any more than we could continue to run it. I am not trying to pass the buck. I am making the point that different roles exist, one for the contract and the other for its implementation.

To answer the Deputy's question, my opinion is that the lack of management in implementing the previous contract had a basis in the culture that then existed. A view was held among consultants that managers in hospitals, particularly non-clinical managers, had almost no right to ask questions about what they were doing in regard to clinical issues. That has changed but we have not yet reached the point where clinicians and managers work together and accept that people have a right to ask these questions. I understand that would not have been accepted in the past.

It seems extraordinary to me that the serious problems which existed in respect of the consultants' contract were known for a long time. The Minister identified this as a key issue which needed to be addressed, yet Mr. Scanlan is admitting there was a lack of management of the contract. Serious faults exist on both sides. It seems that it was a sweetheart contract in many ways, in so far as nobody supervised the consultants or ensured they adhered to the terms of the contract. A hands-off approach was taken by both the HSE and the Department so that, basically, people could do as they wished. That is what the Comptroller and Auditor General is finding and it is the root of many of the problems that have arisen. No system was put in place to monitor adherence to the contract.

In respect of the new contract, what lessons have been learned from the experience of the existing contract? Does the new contract allow, for example, for nine to 12 hours per week of flexible work or has that clause been removed? What systems were put in place by the HSE or the Department to ensure consultants will do what they commit to when they sign up the new contracts? In terms of ensuring higher standards within the health service, a serious criticism of the old contract was that while there was co-operation on clinical audits in theory, the system was not robust enough to ensure meaningful audits and experience was not shared across hospitals with a view to ensuring higher standards. What assurances can we be given that these issues are being addressed in the new contract?

Professor Brendan Drumm

As the issue which the Deputy raised is more of an operational one, perhaps I should answer. There is clearly a huge responsibility to make this contract work. It comes at a significant cost but it has the potential to change the way consultants work in the future. The issue of flexible sessions does not arise. Work plans will continue to be outlined for the week and consultants' commitments in areas such as teaching and research will be taken into account on an individual basis rather than according to the previous system.

We are in a much better position to achieve a measurement system for performance at both hospital and individual consultant levels. We have established a process called healthstat in our structure, to bring precise performance levels across many different areas to our attention on a monthly basis. We can determine the number of outpatients seen per clinic and per consultant and compare new patients to follow-up visits. The system has moved in tandem with the negotiation of the consultants contract into a position where I can more accurately measure what it produces. This has been welcomed by consultants because the majority of them do a significant amount of public work. Many people are happy to have measurements because they can identify the outliers and prove that the system is not being abused by everybody. We are now in a position to make progress with a measured system.

The clinical directors, whom we aim to appoint from September, will have a central role to play in managing the 80:20 split, clinical audits and patient safety issues. The organisation is also trying to enhance its clinical input at a corporate level, especially in the area of patient safety. I can assure Deputies that we are focusing closely on a contract with definite measures. Notwithstanding the implementation of that detailed system, we have to recognise that 80% of consultants have voted for it, which suggests that, unlike some who appeared in the newspapers recently, the vast majority do not feel the need to make a fortune from private practice and are happy to engage in the process of improving public provision of care.

Mr. Scanlan sent us an account of the new contract, which went into considerable detail on remuneration and hours. I am not satisfied, however, that it contains sufficient information to reassure us that the mistakes made over the past ten years will not be repeated. I therefore ask that the committee be provided with a detailed account of how it is proposed to ensure supervision of the contract, who is responsible for enforcement and how an adequate system for clinical audit and risk management will be achieved. This committee will have to revisit the matter next year when we consider the Department's Vote. In order to measure progress and determine whether the system is working, we will need details of the supervisory system proposed in the negotiations on the contract.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

I will be happy to do that. There are two elements to this issue, measurement and information, and clinician leadership. The Chairman referred to the first when he asked about getting access and, perhaps, making the information public. The two issues have been identified by the Minister in the context of implementation now that an agreement has been reached. We will appoint clinical directors to lead the process because it will not work if we do not put them in place.

It would be helpful if we had information on how it will work, what has been agreed and the precise role of clinical directors.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

Absolutely.

Mr. Scanlan is now saying that we will appoint clinical directors. I thought general managers of hospitals were responsible for monitoring these matters.

I cannot understand the response we received in previous correspondence, when we were unable to get the information we requested. A letter sent to us on 20 May concerning the level of private practice by consultants at public hospitals referred to data supplied by hospitals to the ESRI on the explicit agreement that both patient and treating consultant information would be anonymous. Why is that data not made directly available to the Accounting Officer at the Department without anonymity so that we can have transparency? Why was this situation allowed to develop? As a member of a health board 15 years ago, I was able to get information on the level of private practice on a speciality basis in each of the health board's hospital. The situation appears to have evolved since then and now the information is being anonymous, whatever that means. I will not use the term "covered up". If the ESRI can get the information on the explicit agreement that it is anonymous, why is the Department not receiving it?

Mr. Michael Scanlan

When the system started, certain assurances were given on confidentiality and that one could not identify individual patients or consultants. That was part of the agreement. We have had access to that data on the figures to which the Deputy referred when entering negotiations.

The Department has had them for the past ten years and did not take action on the issue.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

I do not know how long we have had them. I am being honest. During my time we had them going into the talks.

Can Mr. Scanlan find out how long the Department had the data? It is crucial.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

Yes, I can. One of the issues we have made clear on behalf of the Minister is that we see publication of the data as one of the levers. This goes back to the Deputy's point on delivery.

Before I ask Deputy McCormack to speak, I would like to ask a question arising from the discussion on hospice services. We received assurances from the Departments of Finance and Health and Children that there were more rigid controls on the shifting around of moneys tagged for specific purposes. We were assured that system was operational. On the funding for palliative care, I am reliably informed that the funding for 2008 and jobs are not to be used for the purposes for which they were allocated. A further €3 million and 47 whole-time equivalent posts were approved for 2008. Have we a cast iron guarantee that this money, clearly tagged for that purpose, will not be used to compensate for the moneys redirected in 2006 and 2007? What action will be taken to compensate the palliative care sector for the breach of faith and trust in 2006 and 2007?

Mr. Michael Scanlan

I said we had put in place arrangements through the delegated Department of Finance sanction system to ensure the development funds, including the €3 million the Chairman mentioned, could not be spent for another purpose without sanction. I also said that did not remove the real problem we and the HSE had that if one had an overrun on one side, one had to live within one's budget. We are trying to grapple with this issue.

Professor Brendan Drumm

I would not like there to be a feeling that there was sleight of hand with this money. This did not begin with the HSE. Money has always been moved around to balance the Vote. The HSE is delighted the letter of sanction controls development money and prevents it being moved around because this means there must be absolute clarity on where it is spent from the Oireachtas or the Department. It must be either spent or moved elsewhere. To deal with Deputy Shortall's comment, we are delighted because there will be clarity on which service goes ahead and which does not based on the overall Vote. I have no difficulty with this.

Will the €3 million be spent for the purposes for which it was allocated?

Professor Brendan Drumm

The €3 million is referred to in the letter of sanction as development money and the decision will have to be made on whether it will be spent for that purpose. We cannot spend it for any other purpose.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

All I can do is repeat what I have already said: we are dealing with the issue.

To paraphrase Mr. Scanlan's earlier presentation, the health service is not about balancing the books but delivering the best possible service. I want to base my question around this. Earlier this week it came to light that 100 jobs had been lost at Our Lady's children's hospital, Crumlin. How could a children's hospital lose 100 staff without patient service being affected or withdrawn? This will result in great worry for parents and suffering and anxiety for children. In some cases it may lead to fatalities. Yesterday in the Dáil the Taoiseach tried to defend this. The motto of the HSE and the Minister seems to be "Suffer the little children to come unto me". Did any management staff at Our Lady's children's hospital, Crumlin, receive bonus payments between 2005 and 2007?

Professor Brendan Drumm

I ask Ms Doherty of the National Hospitals Office to deal with that matter.

Ms Ann Doherty

I do not have information on any bonuses paid but I can follow up the matter. Our Lady's children's hospital, Crumlin, is a voluntary organisation; therefore, that information would not have come to me but I can follow it up for the Deputy.

At our meeting in February it was established that €1,239,744 in bonus payments on top of salaries had been paid to 111 management staff. We were told that in 2005, 63 posts in management and administration had been created. How many new management and administrative staff were appointed in 2007 and 2008 to date?

Professor Brendan Drumm

I can give the Deputy the figures for 2008. I may not be able to give him the figures for 2007. The figures for new starters on the payroll between January and May are: medical and dental, 715; nursing, 769; health and social care professionals, 248; management and administration, 166; general support staff, 314; and other patient and client care, 206. The management and administration staff total is 166 but it would be extremely unusual to appoint significant numbers of medics or nurses to units without having some administrative support for them, for example, secretaries.

I quoted the figure for bonuses paid in 2006, as given at the meeting in February. Are there any figures available for bonuses paid in 2007?

Professor Brendan Drumm

Not yet.

As an example of their concern about cutbacks, did any of the management staff decline their bonuses amounting to over €1.25 million in 2006?

Professor Brendan Drumm

No, I do not believe they did. I am not certain that people in the health service who work extraordinarily hard throughout the system should be asked to subsidise——

They receive a salary for working extraordinarily hard, as we do.

Professor Brendan Drumm

We do not set out to ask them to subsidise the system within which they work; no other part of the public service, or anywhere else, would operate on that basis. It is extremely unfair to ask senior managers in the health service to do so because they work in the health service. I expect it would become extremely difficult to recruit people at senior level of the health service if that policy were adopted.

It would create a great impression of the management staff if some of them declined their bonuses because of the cutbacks in other areas of the health service, despite the fact that from the fine words we heard in the reports one would imagine there was nothing wrong with the health service. For example, Mr. Scanlan's report cited "significant improvement in our health services". It is easy to know he does not have to attend clinics or be on the ground because he would then know there has been no significant improvement in health services. As public representatives, we meet this every day of our lives.

Professor Brendan Drumm

I reiterate that it is unfair to suggest managers in the health service should, because they work in the health service, be expected to subsidise the service. They have their own families and costs in life and are perfectly entitled to the same treatment as everybody else in the workforce.

I do not consider it unfair. Our job is to highlight matters brought to our attention in our constituencies. In his presentation Professor Drumm said there was no embargo on recruitment. At our meeting in February I raised the matter of a son who could not secure home help for four hours to keep his mother in his home. It would have cost only €50 per week. The woman in question has since been placed in institutional care because he was not able to continue to look after her. I have clear evidence. I quoted a letter at the last meeting, which I will not quote today, from the HSE west executive telling me this person could not be recruited for four hours home help in the week because of the embargo on staff recruitment. Is the HSE or Professor Drumm telling me the truth on the staff recruitment embargo?

I have written to the HSE about this and my correspondence has not been dealt with. It is very frustrating for public representatives to bring cases to the HSE and not have the correspondence answered or dealt with. It leads to desperate frustration for public representatives in trying to deal with problems arising in constituencies.

Professor Brendan Drumm

Ms McGuinness will respond on the specific case spoken about.

Ms Laverne McGuinness

With regard to the case spoken about by Deputy McCormack and the gentleman and lady in question, the case consisted of four hours' home help. There was also a 17-hour sitting service being provided. The lady in question providing the home help service was retiring and at that time, the family concerned identified another lady to take on the service. Clearly, the HSE cannot directly take on a person identified by the family. What it did instead was to offer a cash grant, which it can do, in order for the family to employ that lady. It was then specified that there was a preferential option of the lady in question being put into residential care, and that has happened since.

The four hours could not be provided and that is all I know. This was a result of the embargo on the recruitment of staff. I am sure it has cost the Health Service Executive at least €20,000 to keep this person in institutional care since then, when €50 a week would have solved the problem if a person — an available neighbour — could have been taken on for four hours of home help. I will not refer to the issue any more. It is crazy.

Professor Brendan Drumm

We do not agree this was subject to an embargo. The issue had nothing to do with it. We cannot accept the suggestion it had and an embargo was in place. We checked the facts, which are different.

I quoted on the previous occasion the name of the person who wrote the letter but the Chairman corrected me for naming a person.

On a point of order, we all could raise specific cases here. We will not get anywhere in raising specific cases——

I would not see that as a point of order if I were in the Chair.

I do, as the meeting is being taken over.

In fairness to the Deputy, he is illustrating a point he made on the embargo with a specific example.

I will not be silenced by any other member.

Professor Drumm is attempting to respond.

Professor Brendan Drumm

We would be perfectly happy in that position to provide a service in any way we reasonably could. We cannot have people hand-pick somebody to provide home help and we have a consistent significant problem in ensuring home help personnel are validated because there are such significant numbers. We must be absolutely certain of the quality of care provided. We cannot just have a free market and operation where people hand-pick others up and down the system for their own home help.

We will work with people and if they want to do it that way, we will give them grants. We will not take responsibility for employing people we do not recruit in a formal capacity.

My correspondent told me——

We have dealt with the matter.

I ask Professor Drumm to inform the HSE west executive not to write letters to me indicating there is an embargo on recruitment of staff when apparently there is not. I have it writing from the HSE west executive that there is an embargo on staff recruitment. Professor Drumm should correct it with the HSE rather than me.

Regarding the embargo, the Minister answered a question on 29 April on the personnel census on a grade category basis. On 31 December 2007, there were 39,006 nurses in the system but by the end of March 2008, three months later, there were 38,047. Almost 1,000 nurses were lost to the system. What happened there?

Professor Brendan Drumm

Student nurses go off at a certain stage in the year. As of the last year or so, student nurses are counted in the census, although previously they were not. A similar change will happen every year as student nurses graduate.

Almost 1,000 nurses were lost to the system from the previous quarter. It should be specified if these are student nurses.

Professor Brendan Drumm

The student nurse issue is confusing the matter significantly and to be fair, it would be difficult for the Chairman to spot that.

Returning to Deputy McCormack's question about bonuses, I have details of the scheme in front of me.

I wish to contribute on that again, when the Chairman gets a chance.

The delegation was unable to supply some of the information to Deputy McCormack. I do not want to personalise the issue. The scheme allows awards of 15% to 20%, awards of more than 10% and less than 15%, awards of more than 5% and up to 10% and awards of 0% to 5%. It also sets out the parameters under which bonuses can be given. Will the witnesses break down for us the years 2006 and 2007 with regard to the range of bonuses given under those headings?

Professor Brendan Drumm

We can supply the complete information, although not here. We can get that for the committee.

When will the figures be available for the bonuses in 2007? The figures for 2006 are the most up to date we have, totalling in excess of €1.25 million to 211 management staff. Who decides who should receive bonuses? Is it decided internally and is it a cosy arrangement? How is that arrived at?

We got that information by correspondence after the previous meeting.

I am not fully au fait with the system.

It is in the documentation.

I will ask one or two brief questions regarding the consultants' contract as the matter has been mostly fleshed out at this stage. I was struck by what the Comptroller and Auditor General stated when indicating that hospitals cannot compel consultants to complete a schedule of commitments. Basically, consultants were not responsible to anybody.

What has been achieved in the negotiations is not 100% of what was sought. It never would be in any set of negotiations. Is the HSE satisfied there is enough compellability regarding schedules of commitments and responsibilities of consultants to people above them in the work they are carrying out?

Professor Brendan Drumm

This is new terrain for everybody with the introduction of directorates. We feel that with the measurement systems we are putting in place, we will absolutely be able to identify whether people are delivering on their commitment, which is a significant issue that is different from what we have come from. The extraordinary challenge for us in the introduction of clinical directorates is that there is a demand for real leadership from clinicians on the ground as well as from management in terms of being able to call people to account if they are working less than their scheduled commitment.

The length of time taken for the process was in one way disappointing but in another way it has brought a reality to the fact that we will insist on having the matter managed. The consultants want to see it managed as well. It is an enormous challenge but it is allied to a system where we are measuring hospital by hospital performance, so we can indicate how one hospital is comparing with an equivalent hospital in another part of the country. There is an added pressure on the system to ensure individual groups of clinicians within the hospital are doing a fair amount.

With the best will in the world, we will find that a certain number of consultants, probably a very small number, will not adhere to what has been set out for them. They will not operate and probably will not co-operate with the 80:20 mix. What sanctions are available if that arises?

Professor Brendan Drumm

I suspect a large number of the group of consultants will not sign a new contract, which is their right. They will stay with the old contract. I have no doubt there will be significant concerns among some consultants, some of which have been expressed in the newspapers this week. There were suggestions they would not be happy with an 80:20 mix, with existing consultants being allowed up to a 70:30 split on their public-private practice. They will not sign the contract. However, I do not accept the image being portrayed of young consultants refusing to come into the system because they do not have access to enormous private practice capacity. I do not believe most consultants operate in that mindset. For those who do sign the contract and then operate outside it, we have the right to call them to account, and if it continues over a six-month period, we have the right to seek repayment of the extra private income earned.

Is it the case that the HSE cannot compel those who remain on the current contract and do not opt for the new one to prepare a schedule of commitments?

Professor Brendan Drumm

Yes. This could be significant, particularly in some parts of the country. If somebody sticks with the old contract, it is not possible for us to compel him or her to work in a clinical directorate structure. The evidence from previous contracts has been that people have held back and then ultimately decided to sign them. There will be a three-month timeframe, I think, to sign the contract. There are significant pension and long-term issues for those who decide not to sign it. I am hoping that will not be a large number but there is no getting away from the fact that there are some extremely high-earning consultants in our system whom I doubt will sign up to the type of controls we are exerting. This will also depend on specialty. There are significant blocs of specialties in which people would never come near the high earnings seen in other areas, and they will all sign. Thus, there will be a problem in some areas.

With regard to the measurement of the 80:20 divide, which will obviously be important when the new contracts are in place, I assume the HSE will be able to manage this from current resources and that a raft of new clerical personnel will not have to be brought in just to carry out this work.

Professor Brendan Drumm

No, it will use existing systems. This is challenging systems not only in this country but elsewhere. There is no doubt there will be differences of opinion in what we measure and what others measure, and there will need to be some refereeing at times. However, it can be done within our existing systems. That information can be used.

I have one more question on the issue of consultants. This is an ongoing issue and I wonder whether it will continue. Where a consultant is operating in a private capacity within the confines of a hospital and a private patient is charged for a raft of services, many of which are provided by the hospital and paid for within the public sector, including the use of equipment and operating theatres, nursing personnel and so on, is there a system in place to recoup a certain amount from the consultant who is charging the patient?

Professor Brendan Drumm

No. Our only recoupment is from the insurance bodies, including VHI which, as Deputies know, has historically paid us a lot less than it would have to a purely private system. We have been operating below economic charging rates. The Government has now decided to bridge that gap and this is happening as we speak. The consultant issues a bill for his or her professional services and we are not allowed by the insurance bodies to bill them anything beyond the fixed fee for the days of attendance in hospital.

Is it therefore the case, to a certain extent, that the public sector is subsidising the private practice of consultants in hospitals?

Professor Brendan Drumm

Public hospitals with private beds within them have not been an economic model. That is why the argument about the public-private mix is a little flawed. We operate a model where 50% of the population, or slightly more, carry so-called private insurance, which is not full private insurance because it is operated on the basis that a lot of work is done much more cheaply than in a full economic model. What the Deputy is saying is absolutely true.

Does the HSE hope to address this issue in the future?

Professor Brendan Drumm

Government policy is now beginning to bridge the gap. Mr. Scanlan might comment on this.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

I beg the Deputy's indulgence in going back to his point about serving consultants. In fairness, as Professor Drumm said, we have negotiated a contract that we hope will bring as many as possible on board. I would like to think many will come on board and that peer pressure will bring even more on board. I say this advisedly, but I still believe also that people who say they are not coming on board should not be allowed just to sit on a contract that is not being implemented in the way the Comptroller and Auditor General has identified. The choice should not be between the new contract and exactly what the consultant had before. I think members will understand what I mean by this. We have to look at other ways of addressing the deficits in implementation mentioned by the Comptroller and Auditor General in his report.

On economic charging, there has been a debate on the issue, as I understand it, for years. One argument is that even if I have private health insurance, I have also paid my taxes; therefore, I should not also have to pay the full economic charge. However, my understanding is that Government policy is now, clearly, to recoup the full economic cost. There have been increases in the charges HSE hospitals and voluntary hospitals can levy on insurance companies, particularly in recent years. It has been a stepped approach; we cannot get there straight away. My understanding is that policy is to take it to where the Deputy is talking about.

I will move on to hospice services, as referred to previously by Deputy Shortall. Only 20% of palliative care posts have been filled in the three less developed regions of the south east, the midlands and the north east. The south east is the area on which I am most focused and about which I am most worried. I would have thought more attention would be paid to these areas. For example, in 2006 there were six occupational therapy and social work posts, of which three have now been filled. In 2007 there were 5.5 medical and nursing posts, of which none has been filled. Thus, three posts out of 11.5 have been approved in an area that was already lagging behind the rest of the country. I would have thought that if funding was being diverted elsewhere, the HSE would ensure the areas playing catch-up would be the first ones to be looked after and that they would not be affected in any way. However, that appears not to be the case. How is this being addressed?

Professor Brendan Drumm

The Deputy's numbers are accurate in that from 2006 there were three posts. I accept that the south east is an area that has suffered due to poor palliative care services. We must accept that as money is put into palliative care, it should be a priority.

Ms Laverne McGuinness

Part of the audit of services being carried out has clearly identified the south-south east as being a deprived area in terms of palliative care. This area should be prioritised over and above——

When will it be prioritised?

Ms Laverne McGuinness

In 2008 and the future.

With regard to capital projects, a new dedicated oncology unit was to be provided in Waterford Regional Hospital. I remember having discussions with local management in 2006 and 2007 and it assured me that the best way to do this was through the HSE. It was said the public private partnership or the private model would not deliver the unit as quickly as the HSE. I had my reservations about this based on the history of the Department of Health and Children and the HSE in delivering projects on time, but I accepted in good faith what I was told. Lo and behold, my reservations have been proved correct in that I am now told the project is not going ahead this year as promised. Why is that? When will the project begin?

Ms Ann Doherty

Our capital plan has a range of projects——

That project has been included in it since the start of this year.

Ms Ann Doherty

The current capital plan is with the Minister for Health and Children for approval. As we are still awaiting approval, I cannot confirm what is in or out of the plan for 2008.

Perhaps Mr. Scanlan might comment on the matter.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

The point Ms Doherty is making is that because the plans are with the Minister for approval, we cannot say what is in or not in at this time. I am sorry.

Why was it planned to go ahead in 2008 and then changed? This comes back to some of the other funding that was moved earlier.

Ms Ann Doherty

It is in our total capital plan. The Health Act and our annual planning process require us to submit, along with our annual service plan, the capital plan for the year in question, the component of the year. That is what is with the Minister at the moment and until she approves it I cannot comment on what is in it.

Can Mr. Scanlan tell the committee when the Minister is likely to make a decision on this?

Mr. Michael Scanlan

I can tell the Deputy that it will be so late in the year that I got my you-know-what kicked recently about it. The Minister wants it done. We are in discussions with the HSE and the Department of Finance to try to sort this in the next couple of weeks.

I have a related question which also concerns a capital development project. This is for a new dedicated palliative care hospice unit for which the local organisation provided €2 million and for which the previous Taoiseach gave a commitment for delivery. My understanding from the HSE is that it is awaiting approval from the Department of Health and Children for capital funding.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

I regret I am not familiar with the project. Where is it to be located?

It is to be located in the grounds of Waterford Regional Hospital.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

Again, I am not familiar with this project, but can the Deputy say whether it was to have been included with the issue we were discussing?

It is a different issue.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

Is it the case that the project is awaiting approval? The Department does not tend to approve individual projects. As Ms Doherty said, we tend to get a plan which features all the projects that must then fit into the budget. We look at it and——

There was an agreement. The Waterford hospice movement raised a certain amount of money, of which over €2 million went towards the project. The rest of the funding was to have been provided through the HSE to build this dedicated building for palliative care. A commitment was given by the Taoiseach regarding this. My information is that the HSE is waiting on approval from the Department of Health and Children.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

I will check the matter for the Deputy.

Professor Brendan Drumm

Did the Deputy say that the money was raised on a voluntary basis?

Over €2 million was raised on a voluntary basis. Perhaps between the HSE and the Department, somebody might come back to me concerning this situation.

I will raise a final issue. It concerns the National Treatment Purchase Fund but I do not know whether my question should be addressed to the HSE or the Department of Health and Children. I am amazed at the numbers of people who are still on waiting lists after 12 months. The figure given for the end of May is 2,155. Some regions appear to be operating far better than others.

In my own area of the south east there are four general hospitals. Three people have been waiting for over 12 months for treatment. In the north west, however, if one considers Letterkenny, there are 385. In Sligo there are 272. The appendix gives a county-by-county breakdown of 100,000 patients and Sligo appears to fare particularly badly in this. Is there a problem in the north west? There are other areas also. Are patients not being referred to the NTPF in these areas?

Mr Michael Scanlan

Mr. O'Byrne may be able to answer the Deputy's question better than any of us.

Mr Pat O’Byrne

I accept that some places are worse than others. The reason that people are waiting for 12 months in some hospitals is because not enough patients are being referred to the fund to clear the numbers on the lists for over 12 months.

Is it the hospitals that do not refer patients?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

The hospitals are responsible.

How then is this a question for Mr. O'Byrne? He cannot do anything about this unless the patients are referred to him.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

I wanted it to be clear where the problem lies. It is not the fault of the NTPF. It seems that some hospitals for whatever——

Is there not a register available which can be consulted to find out the waiting periods on a specialty-by-specialty basis? Why must the NTPF wait for hospitals to make the approach? Surely the NTPF should be pro-active about going to such a website, getting the figures and then making contact?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

The website the Chairman refers to is ours.

That is all the more reason——-

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

We have the names and addresses of patients on those lists and have written to many of them. As I have said, our experience to date is that the hospitals which have engaged most with us have achieved most for their patients. Unfortunately there are a small number of hospitals that have an unacceptable number of people on their books for over 12 months. We would prefer if this was not the case. I do not see any reason these people are so long on waiting lists.

Can the NTPF contact these people and inform them of their rights to treatment under this scheme?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

We have written to those who are on lists for over 12 months.

For over three months?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

For over 12 months.

Does the NTPF write to everybody in that situation?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

We do.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

In fairness, it was important that that should be heard. We said earlier that we were trying to target those waiting longest. I make the point that we are arranging discussions between the Department, the National Hospitals Office and the NTPF to try to address this from the hospital end of things, to discover why they are not co-operating with the NTPF.

I was heartened to read about the pilot project under way at the moment for arranging outpatient appointments. I was not aware of it. That is a huge problem. People cannot get into the system and therefore they cannot approach the NTPF until they have an appointment with a consultant. Many are waiting long periods for this and my belief was that there should be some type of referral of outpatients to the NTPF for consultation. According to the information this has begun on a pilot basis. Is it intended to develop this further, perhaps nationwide?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

The outpatient initiative was begun in 2005 at the behest of the Minister. The numbers we have contacted and facilitated under this initiative have increased year on year. We are developing the scheme in the current year but considering the numbers on outpatient lists there is a long way to go on this.

Professor Brendan Drumm

To be fair to the NTPF it is important to comment on that. It has been a challenge for that organisation to take on those people who have been on waiting lists for over 12 months. A relatively small number of people are involved, however, compared with the overall workload of the hospital system.

I accept Deputy Kenneally's point that the number of people waiting on outpatient care is unacceptable. To be honest, it would be very difficult for the NTPF to sort this out because its figure of 25,000 people seen over two years must compare with the 25,000 new outpatients seen in one hospital in the system in a year. The numbers are huge. We must prioritise this within the system and we are doing so. We must change from having very large numbers of return patients to having many more new patients up-front.

As part of our own performance measures we must get more outpatients into the hospital system. The Deputy is right. The real waiting list is the one with people waiting for a first consultation. We have made this a priority and are up-front about this, as an organisation. We must take it on although we are delighted to get any support possible from the NTPF. There is scale and magnitude here.

There is a real danger that going too far down that road will bring back some of the issues raised earlier and so it becomes a perverse incentive.

Many areas have been covered and I will not go over old ground. Professor Drumm said that home help services were up 6%, with over 4 million hours delivered already in 2008. This concerns elderly people in the main. Obviously that is a good news story. With regard to those figures, is the hospital in the home scheme which was running in Dublin included in those 4 million hours?

Professor Brendan Drumm

It is not.

Ms Laverne McGuinness

The hospital in the home is a separate scheme and is not included as part of the home help hours. Those services are made up primarily of people going to homes, assisting with cooking a meal or putting people to bed.

Professor Brendan Drumm

It is important to point out that home care packages are the next step up from home help. Hospital in the home is a much more expensive service and operates at a more intense level.

That is what I wanted to find out about the scheme. I have been in correspondence about it.

In looking at the costs of the health service, I recognise that in the presentations from Professor Drumm, Mr. Scanlan and Mr. O'Byrne there are areas where there are improvements. There are also areas about which we as a committee and as TDs have concerns. I am concerned when a service that is operating well and saving the Exchequer money is, effectively, pulled. I refer to the hospital in the home scheme that served all six Dublin hospitals. Since March 2007 more than 2,000 people have been seen through the service and 15,000 independent bed days saved as stated by the HSE's own report. We learned four or five weeks ago, on the basis of a radio interview given by a member of the HSE, that this service is being looked at and is, effectively, being closed down for the summer when all the costs of setting up the scheme in the first instance have yet to be absorbed.

The figures available to me show that even in the first year it was €80 per day per patient cheaper to operate the service, even with the set-up costs. The HSE stated it would be able to take up the slack on that with the people who are receiving the hospital in the home scheme. Are the 2,000 or so patients still being seen by the HSE? What plans are in place for a further expansion of a scheme which I thought would be great for the rest of the country? It appeared to me it was working extremely well. I do not know whether that is a question for the HSE or the Department.

Professor Brendan Drumm

Yes, the HSE set out to establish as many systems as it could to keep people out of hospital. In respect of some TV programmes early in the week, I was surprised to see it had been opposed by major vested interests, hand and foot, and at every point by some of the those who are crying about the HSE actually taking it down, which I found bizarre.

When we eventually got it into place — against significant resistance — it did provide a service that was taking some pressure off accident and emergency departments, albeit that the numbers are very small when one counted per day, per hospital unit. At the same time we have started a process up and down the country of establishing community intervention teams, a process which is nurse-led and also includes other paramedics. It aims to keep people out of hospital when they have acute illnesses, to allow GPs, etc., to turn them around. This also involves community intervention teams.

The community intervention teams have been a huge success, although there have been difficulties in getting all these new processes up and running. For instance, in Dublin there is a very good example of it up and running. It is our intention to use this money to continue to enhance our own structures going forward through community intervention teams. We believe this will be long term and a much more sustainable model and a new way of providing care.

I appreciate that. I understand, where possible, that people who do not need to go to hospital do not go to hospital. Nobody would argue with the fact that the scheme to which I referred saved 15,000 independent bed days. I still do not understand why the scheme was pulled and the reason the HSE ceased to support the scheme given that it was the HSE which asked to have it set up.

Professor Brendan Drumm

No, not asked. We actually set it up.

Professor Brendan Drumm

No, we tendered and employed a company to do it. That was totally on our own. We set out to do it.

Did the HSE not think it worked well?

Professor Brendan Drumm

In many ways it worked well. For a hospital in the home system it is, however, expensive. One had to balance that against hospital costs. We believe that money, in terms of the development of our community intervention teams, can provide significantly enhanced value for money in terms of what would be returned in the medium to long term. The community intervention teams are a central plan going forward. Most patients who are interviewed want to be kept at home. We need a sustainable model that is built into the system on the ground, involving public health nurses, community nurses and the people on the ground, and we are getting there.

I appreciate that. I will move away from this issue in a second because I do not wish to dwell on it. Are the people who were receiving care under the hospital in the home scheme now, as we speak today, having drugs administered at home and be provided with every other part of the service that was available to them until six or eight weeks ago? Will Professor Drumm give the committee an assurance that those people are still being looked after and are not in hospital?

Professor Brendan Drumm

It was an acute service so these people would join the system for three, four or five days. We have an assurance from the company that was providing this service that there will be a hand-over of all patients and that they will be maintained.

Is the HSE dealing with those patients now?

Professor Brendan Drumm

Yes, we will have to take care of them.

On the last occasion Professor Drumm was before the committee I raised the issue of medical card patients. It is good to see that numbers on the GMS are increasing. My concern is in regard to GPs and dentists and the GMS scheme. A number of constituents, I am sure this happens throughout the country, have difficulty in finding a doctor who will take the medical card. There is a particular problem finding dentists who will accept the card.

On the last occasion, I used the example of the town of Swords where there are only two dentists who will take medical card patients. It is great to have a medical card and that is what is being implemented but is any progress being made in ensuring that GPs actually provide a service to those who have medical cards.

Professor Brendan Drumm

Is that GPs, dentists or both?

Ms Laverne McGuinness

There are two issues here, one is what happens when a GP's list is actually full. We have looked to see where there are some blackspots in the country. Some GPs provide a list of 6,000, some of whom are private and some have medical cards. Therefore, people on a medical card will have to go a different GP to avail of a service. We are going to work with the IMO and the GPs to identify how to get over that stop-gap. We are meeting the IMO in the coming weeks.

As part of the new GP contract we will try to see how we can contractually tie in something to ensure that everybody is available and will get a service. The first contract we will look will be that for GPs and pharmacies. We will then move on to dentists because they are very similar.

Is there a general problem with regard to dentists and medical cards?

Ms Laverne McGuinness

There is a difficulty in some particular areas but not in all areas.

I have a couple of quick points to make but I will not hold up the meeting much further. Mr. Scanlan mentioned the office of disability and mental health. Everyone has concerns about that area and we want to ensure we provide as good a service as possible. A lot of money has been invested in that area. How long does it take before the money is paid out when a disability group is approved for a grant by the Department? I am familiar with an independent group in my area.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

Would it have been approved by the Department or by the HSE? The only grant scheme with which we are involved is a small national lottery-funded one.

No, then it would be the HSE. Perhaps the question is best addressed by Mr. Woods. What is the turnaround time, once an organisation has gone through the hoops and been approved for a grant? How long should it take before that money is paid out?

Mr. Liam Woods

We fund approximately 3,500 voluntary organisations throughout the country by way of agreement on an annual plan according to the 2004 legislation that set up the HSE. If it is an organisation that is not currently funded by the HSE, it may be slightly different but——

If a grant was approved last year, when should a group receive the money this year?

Mr. Liam Woods

Typically, a profile of payments would be agreed, many of them on a weekly or monthly payment basis. If there is a particular agency we need to examine, Deputy O'Brien can bring it to our attention.

If an approval for a grant was made last year, would you say they would receive it on a monthly basis from the start of the next calendar year?

Mr. Liam Woods

Depending on the agreement with them, that would be the norm.

Okay. I have two final points on occupational therapy, which is mentioned in Professor Drumm's statement. Perhaps he would outline any improvements in the process and in the delivery of occupational therapy?

In addressing that issue he might indicate also if the HSE has benchmarked itself against other health bodies across Europe? What is the turnaround time we want to achieve in terms of occupational therapists completing a report on an individual? It appears there is a blockage in what appears to be a large area. Does Professor Drumm recognise that? Are we making improvements in that regard and, if not, when will those improvements be made?

Professor Brendan Drumm

As the Deputy is probably aware it is not unique to occupational therapy. It is in areas like speech and language therapy——

I was going to ask about speech therapy. Professor Drumm might cover both areas.

Professor Brendan Drumm

— —physiotherapy and all of the areas. I mentioned earlier that we had moved to put in place detailed measures on the way our hospitals perform on a specialty-by-specialty basis. In information terms we were lacking even more in the past in terms of the way these services are provided in the community. If we examine something like speech and language therapy we find that the system operates differently and more effectively in one part of the country than it does in another part. The point the Deputy is making is relevant.

As of next week we will be starting the first of these so-called healthstat processes in the community and will focus in the first instance on physiotherapy. Over a number of months we hope to begin to roll that out in other areas and it will provide us with the type of information we so badly need to which the Deputy alluded. The Deputy is right. We do not have clarity as to what happens in one area compared with another.

Ms Laverne McGuinness

To add to that, the Deputy asked if benchmarks have been set and what our throughput is. It is not only waiting times; it is the numbers that each therapist seeing, both new and referrals. We are capturing that information now in respect of physiotherapists. We have piloted in eight areas. That will be rolled out everywhere by the end of the summer. Therefore, we will have that information to bring to the autumn meeting.

We will be doing a similar exercise on the speech and language therapists. In terms of what we are looking to do, in a number of counties there are models of excellent practice which have effectively eliminated waiting lists over the period. We will look to see how we can roll that out nationally. In other words, we will make better utilisation of the overall numbers we have in terms of the speech and language therapists.

I will be brief in responding to that. Early intervention in terms of speech therapy is crucial. That area must be prioritised because we all are aware of instances where a child received only four sessions of speech therapy in four years. If the system is working much better in other areas of the country, that is welcome but I speak of anecdotal evidence from the Dublin region. This is an area we should prioritise on the basis that early intervention is crucial.

Ms McGuinness said the HSE will start with physiotherapy first. Will speech therapy be done later in the year?

Ms Laverne McGuinness

Absolutely. We will be starting with speech therapy by September. Two issues arise. One is the capture of the data with regard to throughput — the numbers going through and the number of new attendees for speech and language therapists and physiotherapists. That part is happening for the physiotherapists now. We have moved to the speech and language therapists but we will not be waiting until the autumn to begin rolling out the best practice. That key area is about early intervention services, especially where we can engage the parents and engage in group sessions. We are actually getting greater throughput. In other words, one speech therapist is seeing three times as many children as another speech therapist. We will roll that out and therefore make effective use of the resource available but it is better for the child, which is ultimately the priority.

I have one final brief question regarding the €2.5 million that has been granted and set aside for the provision of outpatient facilities for cystic fibrosis patients in Beaumont Hospital. I have raised that matter in the Dáil on a number of occasions. That was supposed to be delivered by September but when will that facility be open and how soon will we move to specialist inpatient facilities? I am aware discussions are taking place in Beaumont but I hear that every month. If possible I would like a definitive answer from the Health Service Executive as to when the physical outpatient facility will be built and operational in Beaumont and when the specialised inpatient facilities will be provided.

Ms Ann Doherty

As the Deputy rightly said, €2.5 million in capital funding has been allocated to the service in the 2008 budget. There have been many discussions. I understand the suitability of the site for the purpose of this facility is being examined.

It was to be opened by September. It will not be open by September. When will it happen?

Ms Ann Doherty

I do not have that information. I will come back to the committee on that.

And also on the inpatient facilities.

Ms Ann Doherty

Yes.

I do not have to tell Ms Doherty that that is crucial.

Ms Ann Doherty

I know.

I have one or two questions on areas we have not touched on, including the mental health sector. One of the key aspects of A Vision for Change, published in 2006, was that the proceeds of lands and buildings being disposed of would be reinvested in the mental health sector. Since the publication of that report how many properties have been sold, including psychiatric care buildings, lands and other properties? How much money has been surrendered by the Department of Health and Children to the Department of Finance? How much money has been reclaimed to fund developments in the mental health sector? If not all of that money has been reclaimed, what is the reason for that and has it been allocated elsewhere?

I received a letter in response to a question I tabled in the Dáil regarding psychiatric hospital lands and buildings specifically in which I was told that €1.33 million was received in 2006 from the sale of lands and buildings and €776,000 in 2007, that all of those moneys were surrendered to the Department of Finance and none was reclaimed.

It is two years since A Vision for Change was published. I would like to have an assessment of the amount returned to the Exchequer. Why has money not been reinvested because the letter to me stated that the sums represent part or all of the proceeds from the sale of lands and that a submission will be made to the Department of Finance, which implies that none has been made to that Department. That is a letter from the HSE. No submission has been made to the Department of Finance despite all of the money being returned. Could we have explanations for that?

Mr. Liam Woods

In the 2006 appropriation accounts there is a figure of €19.6 million returned as Exchequer extra receipts relating to sale of lands. I do not have the 2005 figure in front of me but from memory I recall a figure of approximately €36 million. I would need to get the specific figure for the Chairman.

Professor Brendan Drumm

I think we agree it is €36 million.

Ms Laverne McGuinness

Yes, it is €36 million in respect of sale of lands at St. Loman's. A submission has been made in respect of the plans which can usefully utilise that money for mental health services. That is awaited.

Has that been done in recent weeks?

Ms Laverne McGuinness

It was done in recent months.

I received a letter on 10 April stating a submission would be made shortly.

Ms Laverne McGuinness

A submission has been made.

Professor Brendan Drumm

Regarding the €2 million the Chairman mentioned, that is since the publication of A Vision for Change. Those other surrendered moneys were prior to that.

What would be the total moneys?

Professor Brendan Drumm

It is €57 million or €58 million, putting it all together on that basis.

Why have the proposals contained in A Vision for Change, which is Government policy although I am not referring to the policy itself, not been implemented in the most vulnerable part of the health services? Some would call it the Cinderella sector of the health services.

Professor Brendan Drumm

We have someone here responsible for estates if that would help the Chairman.

Is that Mr. Gilroy?

Professor Brendan Drumm

No, Mr. John Browne.

Mr. John Browne

We have entered into discussions with the Department of Health and Children and also peripherally with the Department of Finance about recouping these moneys. A detailed submission will be going to the Department in six to eight weeks' time, although not detailing the capital projects that will be funded from the sale of lands. That is what we have been asked for by the Department based on the drawdown on a year to year basis.

I ask Mr. Browne to come to the table because we have to record what he is saying.

Mr. John Browne

We have been asked to put a plan together showing what we would require each year, including one on the historical moneys paid to the Exchequer.

With regard to the historical moneys that have been paid to the Exchequer, with all sales of lands the money must be sent to the Exchequer immediately. We then request to recoup it. There are two parts of it. One is the historical money and since A Vision for Change, lands to the value of €2 million have been sold. However, there is a review of the existing lands and the deficits in services. We are examining a plan for the sale of lands in the future as well as recouping the moneys that have been given up to date.

With all the money that has gone back to the Department of Finance, a total of €57 million, why have the proposals in A Vision for Change not come to the Department more quickly? We see buildings throughout the country that are kips, with unfortunate patients having to endure Dickensian conditions. There is one not far from my home. However, all this money has gone back to the Department and none of it has been spent. Is the money ring-fenced in the Department or has it gone elsewhere? In other words, will it be available for re-investment when the plan is eventually submitted?

Mr. Tom Heffernan

The arrangements with regard to the disposal of surplus assets or lands by any organisation on foot of a Government decision are that if the bodies concerned, which would include the HSE, propose to use such receipts for high priority projects or programmes in the same area, they require the prior approval of the Department of Finance for the use of such receipts. As far as the historical receipts are concerned, a commitment was given by the Minister, as I mentioned at the last meeting with the committee, that €36 million of those receipts would be available. The receipts as they come in are factored into the budgetary arithmetic for each particular year so they are part of the overall spending-borrowing requirement.

You are saying the money is gone.

Mr. Tom Heffernan

Effectively, yes. That would be the case for historical receipts.

Does Mr. Scanlan think that is a scandal?

Mr. Michael Scanlan

I am sorry, Chairman, but as I understood it Mr. Heffernan said there was a commitment that €36 million could be drawn down and used once the projects were submitted. It is not gone.

Mr. Heffernan said it has been spent elsewhere.

Mr. Tom Heffernan

I am sorry, Chairman. A total of €36 million of historical receipts has been committed.

Has it been ring-fenced? Will it be forthcoming?

Mr. Tom Heffernan

There is a commitment from the Minister to make that €36 million available. It is not necessarily the sum total of the receipts.

That is €57 million.

Mr. Tom Heffernan

Yes, I believe it is of that order.

Ms Laverne McGuinness

With regard to the disposal of mental health lands and what the plans are in that regard, you have referred to A Vision for Change, the policy document that was produced in 2006. We have an implementation plan in which we have identified six key priority areas for 2008. That will be implemented throughout this year and into 2009.

One of those areas is the relocation of institutionalised care into the community. This calls for the sale of land and building more appropriate facilities in the community. A full exercise has been carried on that. There are specific proposals for that €36 million, which was the sale of lands at St. Loman's. We do not want sporadic development. We are hoping to do something similar to what we did for older persons, where we had community nursing units which were fairly standardised. We are considering how we can do likewise and have that same planning arrangement in place for mental health.

There are also the acute facilities. Take the example of County Tipperary. That county is divided into north and south Tipperary, each with a number of acute facilities and beds. We must examine the country as a whole to see where is the appropriate place to build the acute facility. That exercise is well under way and will be completed by the end of autumn. We will have a landscape of what is actually required for mental health facilities. That is the detailed proposal that will be required for the re-investment of the money after the sale of lands. Proposals have been put in place with regard to two areas, Limerick and Clonmel. Arrangements and discussions are well under way with the county councils regarding the sale of the lands in those areas.

Last February, I asked a question regarding present assets that are unused and I referred specifically to Our Lady's Hospital in Cork. I described it as the biggest derelict site in Cork. I am not being parochial. I received a letter subsequently in response. I said at the time that if something was not done, the place would be burned down because it was used by drug addicts and undesirables and there was much anti-social behaviour. It is not a case of "I told you so" but the place has been burned down since then. It is a listed building but the security is grossly inadequate. A building adjoining it was also burned down three weeks ago. No reasonable attempts have been made to safeguard and protect the properties or the well-being of people who live in the surrounding areas. Have you a notional estimate of the assets that are lying idle nationwide, some of them since 2004?

Ms Laverne McGuinness

Our director of estates is currently carrying out a valuation. However, it is fairly subjective because it depends on whether the land is zoned as residential or not.

It is only currently being carried out?

Ms Laverne McGuinness

Even it had been carried out, it would have had to be revisited in the current climate. In some cases where land was zoned residential by the councils it has been dezoned so a re-evaluation must be carried out. That work will be available towards the autumn and it will be done in conjunction with estates and ourselves. Two things are necessary — one must see what the value will be of the sale of the lands and then where it is most appropriate to provide those services and how that landscape will look.

Mr. Liam Woods

For the record, the total amount in 2006 did not relate to mental health services. There was a significant amount of €36 million identified in 2005 and there was €19.6 million in 2006 in the Exchequer extra receipts category. However, as referenced by Mr. Heffernan, the total is not all mental health resource. I can provide a breakdown of what it is after the meeting.

I have a few questions for Mr. O'Byrne with regard to the National Treatment Purchase Fund. There are 2,155 people on the waiting list for over 12 months. How long is the longest waiting time and from what hospital is the patient?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

I cannot answer that, but there are some people on waiting lists for over two years. According to the patient treatment register, many of the procedures and operations in that 2,155 are, medically speaking, of a fairly minor nature. It is not a question of capacity or resources. They can be cleared fairly easily.

However, there are people on the NTPF waiting list for over two years. Are there many in that category?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

Not many, but there are some.

Would there be more than 100?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

Yes, I am sure there would be.

Would there be more than 200?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

It is hard to be specific but there are a number.

Is it a few hundred? I am only guessing; I am trying to get an idea of the number.

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

I would have to check the exact figures for every hospital but there would be a number.

A few hundred. My second question relates to something Professor Drumm referred to earlier. The standard letter from Tallaght Hospital, for example, to somebody seeking a routine outpatient appointment in the urology department will offer the appointment for 17 months hence. If somebody is referred to the hospital by their general practitioner, they will not be seen until then. I have seen letters issued to my constituents at the beginning of April giving them appointments for 16 September 2009, which is 17 months away.

When people eventually get onto the NTPF waiting list, does the fund compile information on when the patient started on his or her journey after seeing his or her general practitioner? Such people probably get their outpatient appointment after 18 months and are then referred to a consultant. They might eventually get onto a waiting list and then have to wait for the NTPF for their surgical procedure. Does the fund compile that information?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

We do not compile outpatient waiting times. That is not within our remit. The patient treatment register compiles the inpatient and day-case surgical and medical lists.

Most of those start as an outpatient on day one with their GP.

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

For instance, we have come across people in Galway who have been waiting five years for an outpatient appointment in rheumatology. When we ran a pilot scheme there in 2006, the waiting times in Galway decreased from about five years to two years as a result of it. I am not saying two years is acceptable but it just goes to show the type of progress that can be made.

Mr. O'Byrne can understand the extent of my question about the overall time. I am intrigued about one thing Mr. O'Byrne said in his opening statement. Talking about the people waiting for more than 12 months, he said "We are asking hospitals to concentrate especially on those patients so they can be provided with treatment". I suspect most people are under a misconception. I have to confess I thought that when people went on the NTPF list, Mr. O'Byrne was in charge of the list and of getting their treatment. He seems to tell us, however, that he is at the mercy of hospitals and is encouraging them to prioritise people who have been waiting for more than 12 months. I thought the NTPF placed the order and if a hospital did not do it the patient would be put into another hospital. Who is in charge of patients getting surgery?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

The NTPF does not control who comes on lists. We control a certain number of people who go off lists on the basis that they go through our scheme, but we do not control hospital waiting lists. We compile the information on the basis of information supplied to us by the public hospital system. We do not own the lists or control them as such. At any given time we are trying to work with hospitals to fulfil our remit, which primarily is to deal with the surgical waiting lists, and within those to deal first with people who have been longest on the waiting lists.

Can Mr. O'Byrne understand how the public at large misunderstood the NTPF's role? I have genuinely said to constituents that we will get them on to the NTPF waiting list. They may be there for five or six months, but I thought the NTPF would take over responsibility. Mr. O'Byrne spoke about placing the order for surgery. Whose call is it to decide which patients on the list, that Mr. O'Byrne has compiled, get surgery? Does it go back to the consultant who did not deal with it in the first place? Whose responsibility is it to say "Yes, go and do that operation"? Is it the role of the NTPF or the consultant?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

All we can do is fulfil our mandate, which is to fulfil the service plan we agree with the Department of Health and Children every year, having regard to the budget we receive. There is a certain level of activity that can be dealt with within that. We talk to each and every specific hospital around the country and try to agree a number of cases that can be referred under the scheme during the year. Obviously, if there are more people waiting for 12 months in one hospital we try to deal with it on the basis of clearing the people who have been waiting for more than 12 months first.

Mr. O'Byrne's definition of dealing with it is by pleading with the hospitals to do something. The NTPF cannot do anything.

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

There is no regulation there.

I think that is what Mr. O'Byrne is telling me.

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

That is exactly what I am telling the Deputy, yes.

I thought the NTPF had the power to do something about people on waiting lists. However, Mr. O'Byrne is now saying that he is really cajoling, collating and asking hospitals to try to do a few more and try to prioritise them. There are 2,155 people waiting for more than a year and a couple of hundred — we are not sure of the figure — for more than two years. I thought the NTPF had a stronger mandate than that. I am disappointed that it has not. I would prefer if it had. I am surprised to hear what I have heard today.

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

We try to work with hospitals.

The NTPF needs a stronger mandate. Perhaps we could say something about that at the conclusion of our own work. I am not being critical of the NTPF but of the mandate the Oireachtas or the Department gave it. It is weaker than I thought. I am sure that if the NTPF had control of it, we would not have 2,155 people waiting for more than 12 months. I grant that is Mr. O'Byrne's wish also.

In the schedule provided with his opening statement, Mr. O'Byrne told us that 16,166 people are currently waiting for more than three months.

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

That is right, yes.

In today's schedule, he told us that he proposes to do approximately 21,000 in-patient treatments in 2008. We are now five months into the year, so I presume approximately 9,000 of those have been done and there are approximately 12,000 more to do. He tells us there is currently a waiting list for more than three months of 16,000 people but the NTPF will only be able to do 12,000 treatments in the rest of this calendar year. In effect therefore we are saying that at least 4,000 of those who are already on the list cannot possibly be treated this year. Anyone who comes on during the course of this year will have to wait until the 12,000 are dealt with. It seems as if many people will be waiting six to 12 months or more on the waiting lists before they are dealt with. Am I understanding the figures properly?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

Correct. One of the problems with waiting lists is that they are not static. People come on and go off waiting lists every day of the week. At the end of the day, it is not a question of numbers. Time is the problem.

I agree. We talked about whose responsibility it is but hospitals in my region tell me and others that they should call the NTPF's freephone number directly to make sure they get on the list. Is that right? Do they need to do that or are they automatically on the list from the hospitals? Does a sick patient need to ring the NTPF directly or is there a direct flow of information from the HSE to the NTPF?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

On the basis that hospitals submit the waiting list information to us, these people are on our lists at any given time, but I will not be able to deal with all the lists this year. I try to deal first of all with those who are longest on the lists in line with our mandate. We try to deal with people who contact us on the low-call line as well.

That is the end of my questioning. I am not criticising the NTPF. I wish it had more powers.

May I ask about the new consultants' contract? Who are the HSE's commercial advisers for this contract? How many consultants do we expect to have when this system is up and running, and at what cost for each? What is the estimated annual financial cost of implementing the new consultant contracts? What is the ballpark figure?

Professor Brendan Drumm

Salary-wise alone, with a very high take-up, it will probably be in the order of about €150 million. That is off the top of my head.

How many consultants do we ultimately expect to have in the system?

Professor Brendan Drumm

I am basing the figure on what is there at the moment.

How many consultants are there? I thought there were more than 2,000 or 3,000.

Professor Brendan Drumm

There are about 2,500. In that situation we will try to reconfigure what are currently junior hospital doctor numbers back into consultant numbers. There is a perception that we have a huge absence of doctors, no more than nurses, in our system at the frontline, when in fact what we need are more decision makers. We would commonly have two to three doctors in a hospital for each admission per day. The problem is that we got the wrong level of doctor. We would be better off with fewer doctors at a senior level, so we need to reconfigure that resource. There is no way on earth that we can go up to 3,000 or 4,000 consultants in a situation where that was going to be all new money.

The second issue is that the workloads are not as large as we constantly have portrayed. The problem is that it is spread over many sites. For instance, in the north east we have a hospital workforce of 3,700 to 3,800 with only 140 admissions a day. That is not unique to the north east. We have hospitals in Ireland with 400 doctors and 100 admissions a day. People are spread all over the place. As we reconfigure systems from a safety perspective, at the moment in some of these units we are carrying out surgery on a tiny number of patients, which we know — and everybody accepts — we cannot continue to do. The reconfiguring of that service will result in less demand for more consultants. For instance, in the north east today, if we put all our surgeons and physicians on one site we would, by head of population, have more than enough consultants, even at this point in time.

I am trying to get a general picture of the position. Even if the HSE has 2,000 consultants at €250,000 a head, that is €0.5 billion per annum. Mr. Woods will correct me if I am wrong. This is what I am getting at. Over the years we have seen with umpteen Departments and agencies where the State side, such as the HSE, is in commercial negotiations with various organisations to perhaps build a road, a hospital or negotiate a contract such as this. A criticism of the Committee of Public Accounts in the past has been that there is a lack of commercial ability within the Civil Service, which is not a commercial organisation. In my view, the State has regularly got bad deals. As a result, we have had to set up the National Development Finance Agency. For capital projects over €20 million, the Departments must go to that agency because the Department of Finance clearly understands there is not the commercial competence within all the line Departments to get the best deal.

It worries me that the Civil Service is not geared to have expert commercial negotiators. I would hate to think we would be back here in five or six years with some flaws in the system, which commercial negotiators might have foreseen and which the Department is perhaps not foreseeing. Does the Department have external commercial negotiators, apart from legal advisers? I am trying to explain what I am getting at.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

I was a little puzzled at the start but I understand now. It is not that we, in the Department — I think the same true of the HSE — would have one set of advisers that would cover all sorts of negotiations in which we would be involved. In some instances we would use the NDFA, to which Deputy Fleming referred. We had professional advice, for instance, when we were in negotiations with the pharmacy groups.

When one gets into something like the consultant contract, as I have stated previously, it is unavoidable that it is an IR, not a commercial, negotiation. We would have had our own general professional advice. Dr. Devlin, who is beside me here, was part of that because of the nature of what we were discussing to try to get the best deal we could on the clinical side. Ultimately, one came down to a hard-nosed IR negotiation and I am not sure that one can buy that service.

Mr. Scanlan's approach is precisely what I am afraid of. I am genuinely concerned at that answer, that we are dealing with this as an IR issue. I understand it is all about personnel and IR.

Industrial relations is the reason for the PPARS mess. I understood when the HSE went to computerise the PPARS system there were 2,700 variations of the payroll system throughout the health service. I do not know how many different pay-roll systems there were for hospital porters alone. That was as a result of dealing with matters on an IR basis in every individual location. Commercial organisations could not survive if they dealt with everything on an IR basis. I would like to see value for money and the financial viability of the contract getting equal prominence with the IR issues in these negotiations. I am worried that such balance does not seem to be uppermost. I realise it is a matter of balance but Professor Drumm sees my point.

Professor Brendan Drumm

I see where Deputy Fleming is coming from. We get criticised a lot for taking external advice but, in terms of our own involvement in the contract negotiations, we had external advice and we found it very useful.

In this contract?

Professor Brendan Drumm

Yes.

Can Professor Drumm advise us who are the consultants or what international experience they have?

Professor Brendan Drumm

We used a North American group which was involved in processes such as major car companies' contract negotiations, etc. It did not involve anybody travelling, or practically nobody. I accept exactly what Deputy Fleming states.

I would be more comfortable if somebody impartial who was not involved in the process threw his eye over the final agreement for the taxpayers.

Professor Brendan Drumm

No, not at that level. As Mr. Scanlan stated, when it came down to the final issues we had advice about the whole process and what we needed to do, and how to advance it and to get out of it. When it came down to the final negotiations we were left in a situation where we had to make some calls ourselves. Mr. Scanlan has long experience, from his time in the Department of Finance, of understanding IR negotiations and I have a reasonable experience of understanding the consultant contract. From that perspective, we were not in a bad situation.

However, I accept Deputy Fleming's point. Mr. Scanlan mentioned that in the pharmaceutical negotiations we did the same thing. I accept Deputy Fleming's point that there is a lot to be gained from seeking——

I would be surprised if the consultants had not good commercial advisers advising them behind the scenes, otherwise they would not be a competent organisation. I would expect at least as much from the State side because that is where the Committee of Public Accounts comes in.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

I accept Deputy Fleming's general point. He referred to PPARS and, although God knows I do not want to go back there, there was the value for money aspect of then trying to computerise all those variations to which the Deputy referred. It is a question of what advice one can get that is commercial, but that translates also into the public service.

In the negotiations with the consultants — they would not be any different from other groups in this regard — what would drive us would be much more Government pay policy, for instance, and public service pay rates rather than the commercial considerations that a company would have. In that sense, the advice, a word I use advisedly, would be correctly driven from the Department of Finance that this is Government pay policy and we have wider considerations if one goes beyond certain parameters.

Is Mr. Scanlan implying that the Department is a little hamstrung in the negotiations because of the general framework of public service pay?

Mr. Michael Scanlan

No. I am not trying to pass that back to the Department of Finance. That is our public service pay policy system in this country. I accept that. In fairness, it is just part of doing the job here.

My last question relates to a broad issue. Mr. Scanlan mentioned information and local empowerment in this opening statement. He stated that there was a need for people who are making the clinical decisions to have good information and he suggested that "information is even more important than structures". We understand that. It echoes the need for major IT investment. Bearing in mind the one we just mentioned where we went down that route, how will the Department implement what he stated, that "Information is even more important than structures", which will involve hundreds of millions of euro in IT investment over a period? How will he achieve that and give us the confidence we will not run into some of the problems encountered in the past?

Mr. Michael Scanlan

That is a fair question. I deliberately used the word "information" because elsewhere when we have spoken about this — earlier we spoke about commercial companies — we had commercial ICT companies telling us they have all the answers to all our problems. First and foremost, it is not about ICT; it is information.

I fully accept that one will not get eventually to where one wants to go on information unless one enables it, but one can start with information alone. One can start, if necessary, with collecting it manually and locally. In many of the cases I have come across — Professor Drumm said this — once one produces the information back to the clinicians — it was the first time, in fairness, that somebody had even shown them the data and they were surprised.

All I can say is that if one looks at issues like cancer, we were able to get the information. This is the point that Deputy Shortall made previously. Perhaps we have not made proper use of information we had, poor and all as it was. We were able to get into that data, to analyses it, and to get clinicians talking to clinicians, and to state this is what is going on in their area and ask how to proceed. It is a long hard road. I suppose I am pleading that if we at least have the debates around information it brings greater clarity. It will not solve all the problems. I would be the first to admit that. We have problems.

I will leave it at that.

I welcome all our guests and apologise for having had to miss a short part of the meeting. I listened to Professor Drumm the other day when he asked himself a range of questions and gave appropriate answers. I wondered what questions he would like to ask himself today.

Professor Brendan Drumm

I do not know what Deputy Broughan means.

Does Professor Drumm recall that the other day he had all the answers to all the questions he asked himself in the media? Does he remember that?

Professor Brendan Drumm

If Deputy Broughan wants to ask me a question, he should ask me a question. I am not here to suffer personal abuse.

Professor Brendan Drumm

I think it is personally abusive——

Professor Brendan Drumm

— —and I object to it.

Professor Brendan Drumm

I do object.

For example, Would he consider the core issue remains the report before us on the consultants' contract?

Professor Brendan Drumm

For the health services?

Professor Brendan Drumm

There are major issues for the health service. The core issue involves obtaining value for money. It also relates to obtaining a level of performance from the workforce that is in place and from the structures within which that workforce operates. People continually state that additional people should be deployed to our frontline services. There are already huge numbers of individuals working in these services. What we must do is operate in a much more clever way. In addition, we must provide a far better service than that currently on offer. It is not always those who operate at the front line who cause problems with regard to the level of service provided; it comes down to the way the service is structured.

As stated earlier, we operate hospital services with huge numbers of people spread across several sites where the activity levels are extraordinarily low. I also made the point that it is a common feature of our hospitals that two to three doctors are employed for every one admission per day.

Does Professor Drumm agree that the report with which the committee has been presented in respect of consultants indicates that the lack of accountability is astonishing? Does he agree that this cannot continue to be the case? We represent people who are on waiting lists. It seems that matters always come back to the consultants, who are at the core. I accept that the HSE has been engaged in work in respect of contracts, etc. It appears that this work is by far the most important in the context of getting the health service moving.

I am of the view that people sometimes make glib comments about the HSE, as an organisation. These individuals do not appear to acknowledge the elephant in the room. The lack of accountability among consultants — who are the core workers in the area — seems to be the problem. The report prepared for us by the Comptroller and Auditor General contains some damning conclusions. I was obliged to leave the meeting earlier in order to deal with a transport issue relating to certain workers who allegedly did not carry out some functions and whose action gave rise to major problems. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report appears to indicate that certain core public service workers did not carry out their functions. Is that the case?

Professor Brendan Drumm

I do not believe I have ever been accused of defending consultants, quite the opposite. Consultants will be a critical component if this service is going to work. However, we must look beyond the consultants. As far as waiting lists are concerned, consultants are an extremely important component. There is no doubt that the management of this new contract needs to be central to how we reconfigure the services. Equally, however, the development of new contractual arrangements with our other major stakeholders — including general practitioners — will present a major challenge. The realignment of our community services out of what we term "professional silos" and into a primary care structure that will give people immediate access will involve huge changes and major IR negotiations. The Deputy is correct in that consultants are central to this matter. The new contract will give us a real chance.

When will the new contract come into play? Will the clinical audit trail to which the from of the Department, the Chairman and other speakers referred be watertight? Will we be in a position to know where people are and what they are doing?

Professor Brendan Drumm

There are two forms of audit and Deputy Shortall alluded to them earlier. I would differentiate between the two. The first is the audit of activity and this involves reducing waiting lists, etc. Much of the information relating to this audit process is already up and running in our system and we are beginning to use it in conjunction with the hospital system. For the first time ever, we are interacting with hospitals and we are in a position to inform certain ones that their waiting lists are far longer than those which obtain at others. This is already beginning to have a significant effect and it involves matters such as whether it can be done in the community, etc. This system of audit is already up and running and will, even in the absence of the consultants' contract, have an effect. However, it will clearly be much more powerful when clinical leadership is driving the changes.

The second form of audit is much more difficult to put into operation. I refer here to clinical audit in the context of the quality outcome issue. If it is to work right, the clinical leaders must be in place before it is established. We hope to have a significant number — if not all — of the clinical directors in place by September. One of their priorities will be to establish mechanisms relating to the safety audit issue. The latter will present major challenges because there are certain services that are currently being provided over which no one would be prepared to stand from a clinical perspective. We have to work on all these matters at the same time.

Planning approval was recently granted in respect of the new private hospital that is to be built — as part of the co-location initiative — by the Beacon Medical Group in the grounds of Beaumont Hospital. I understand this facility will have 186 beds. I presume that similar facilities to be built at other hospitals throughout the country will be proceeding. How will these developments fit in with the National Treatment Purchase Fund system, the HSE's determination to ensure that there will be acceptable waiting times, treatment times, etc., and the new consultants' contract?

Professor Brendan Drumm

A major concern the HSE and I harboured from the outset relates to the need to ensure absolute measurement of activity in the consultants' contract in respect not only of our hospitals but also with regard to other facilities. The co-location model, which involves the building of private hospitals on public hospital sites, has given rise to the creation of a different scenario. We must be able to measure activity in this regard. The agreements being put in place with the developers provide us with absolute access to data relating to consultant activity.

If a new consultant comes on board and operates in one of these co-located facilities, his or her work will have to remain within the 80:20 ratio. If this does not happen, we will be obliged to take action in order to ensure it comes back within that ratio. Otherwise, we would rapidly end up in a perverse incentive situation where said consultant would be operating in one of our hospitals and would potentially gain as a result of patients going on waiting lists and being obliged to go to the private hospital for treatment. The 80:20 ratio must be rigorously enforced across the public-private hospital divide. This is new terrain, particularly for the private system. If we do not maintain the 80:20 ratio, we will be in deep trouble.

It may have been mentioned earlier, but what is the current position in respect of the new nursing hours arrangement? Will this arrangement apply from next month?

Professor Brendan Drumm

The new arrangement must be signed up to on the basis that it will be cost neutral and will not affect service delivery. That is a major challenge, particularly where there are few nurses in individual units, such as those in the intellectual disability area. As of yesterday evening, we still only had sign-off in respect of approximately 5,000 nurses. Due to the fact that deadline is approaching, there has been an acceleration in this regard. However, the real challenge is that it is a black-and-white issue. In other words, either the arrangement will proceed or it will not. We cannot move on the basis that it can be done this year but that next year a difficulty might arise. Next year is going to be even more difficult for the greater part of the health service. There must be absolute clarity, therefore, that there will be changes in practices which will deliver in terms of working hours, which will not affect patient care and which will not give rise to additional costs. We are a long way from obtaining sign-off in respect of all the nurses in the system.

Professor Drumm made an interesting point to the effect that the number of people attending accident and emergency departments is increasing and juxtaposed this with a comment in respect of primary care. He has emphasised this since he became chief executive of the HSE. Professor Drumm also stated that there are 97 primary care teams in place. Are these beginning to have an impact in hospitals such as Beaumont and the Mater?

Professor Brendan Drumm

They are having an impact across the country and we are beginning to see a reduction in the number of people attending at accident and emergency departments. Dublin represents a unique challenge. There appears to be a historical precedent for people in the city to use accident and emergency departments. We have put in place a superb out-of-hours service across north Dublin. We experienced problems as regards bedding the service in because there was resistance to its being put in place. However, the level of satisfaction among those who use the service is superb. It is interesting that, even though a couple of thousand people avail of the service each week, there has not been a dramatic decrease in the number of those attending at accident and emergency departments. This begs the question as to from where all these individuals come.

There are two issues with which we must deal. The Deputy lives in the area in question and he is aware that we went to great lengths to obtain information. We went to supermarkets, schools, etc., in order to make people aware of the service. It is far better than the service offered at accident and emergency departments from the point of view of most of the people who want to use it. We found that a challenge. We still must hope it will reach twice its uptake and surely then we will see an effect. It has presented a specific challenge in Dublin to get people to change the door they go through. No other system in the world would have six accident and emergency department doors open in a city the size of Dublin. I suspect it is a unique occurrence and do not know why it happens but that is the case. We are also examining our system and auditing the numbers to assure ourselves about the type and number of patients in the system because this confounds us a little. It is hard to see how we added 2,000 to another system and still find the same problem. The accident and emergency department issue remains a challenge in Beaumont and the Mater hospitals.

I refer to the chief executive officer's core advisory group and the recent revelations about salaries paid to the individuals involved. Many are astonished and compare the salaries to those paid by dynamic private enterprises. The committee will invigilate the 2007 accounts next year. How do we know we are obtaining value for those salaries? A sum of €600,000 was paid for 135 days work. People in the public service, of which both of us are members, are struck by these salaries being totally out of kilter with the earnings of public servants, for example, around this table who do important jobs.

Professor Brendan Drumm

I am happy to refer to this. First, the figures were based on two years work, not one.

Is that the figure of €2.2 million?

Professor Brendan Drumm

Yes. Second, the figures are based on work for more than 135 days. Third, they include VAT at 21%. Fourth, mention was made of payment for holidays, which is totally untrue. No holiday time payments are made to any consultant. The HSE is a huge organisation and there is a need for support, not only for the chief executive officer but also the management team in certain areas. The figure of €600,000 presented by the Deputy is absolutely untrue. It is more of the order of €200,000 per person with the VAT going to the Exchequer.

I refer to how easy is it to measure value for money for consultants. If somebody is being paid €250,000 a year without being paid for his or her vacation time and pension, a figure of 30%, and he or she can be let go, the figure becomes very different very rapidly depending on how it is added. One must judge it on the basis of bringing in the right people. The people concerned are out there to be shot at and I am sure people within and without the organisation will say a person such as Maureen Lynott who came in with me to take on a difficult task in an organisation which was getting going is not worth it but if anybody wants to sit down with me to see what she does and what she has delivered, they will consider it value for money.

People will make a comparison with Professor Drumm's own hospital letting agency workers go and so on. The Taoiseach referred to limited budgets earlier this week, with which I do not agree. One could make a comparison between important tasks being performed by agency workers and the figure of €2.5 million for consultants.

Professor Brendan Drumm

I will not deal with the specific Crumlin issue but, if the Deputy likes, I will ask Mr. Barry to deal with it. I refer back to the issue of frontline staff and the contention that we can continue to throw staff at other parts of the system. I will not deal specifically with Crumlin hospital, as that would not be right. However, I can supply the figures hospital by hospital outlining the number working on the front line in the system and the number who cross their threshold every day. I can refer to surgical units that admit eight people a day with 27 or 28 doctors working in them, which is not unusual. I refer to the notion that the system up front is short of staff. The taxpayer cannot afford us to believe that cannot be challenged. We have an administrative overload which we must address and reconfigure, but the system at large must reconfigure. It would be wonderful to respond to every scenario with additional resources, but I cannot do this. Ms Doherty will deal with the Crumlin hospital issue.

Ms Ann Doherty

The issue relates to the hospital's projected costs to run its service in 2008. We have worked closely with its administrators to help them to get under their cost base and understand what is causing the problems. Across the system, we are examining how best to achieve value and how to use staff appropriately. Sometimes that means a discontinuation of agency staff, which is not unique in any part of the health system. Crumlin hospital does valuable work but we have an issue with over-recruitment vis-à-vis the sanction we received. These are the issues we are working through with hospital management.

Were agency workers brought in because of the embargo? Was that the root of the problem?

Ms Ann Doherty

Crumlin hospital is run by a voluntary organisation; it is not directly managed by the HSE. I cannot say why the hospital chose to use agency nurses. It is far in excess of its employment level, irrespective of the use of agency nurses.

I refer to the National Treatment Purchase Fund. I have a table detailing the average cost of treatments between 2002 and 2006. The average cost in 2006 was €3,222. Is it correct that Mr. O'Byrne said information on costs was commercially sensitive but that they were supplied to the Comptroller and Auditor General on an annual basis?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

The information is commercially sensitive but the costs are available for inspection by the Comptroller and Auditor General annually.

Are they supplied to him?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

They are available for inspection.

Will the HSE forward the details to the committee?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

Details of what?

The costs involved.

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

We have never released the costs of procedures.

To whom are they available for inspection?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

The Comptroller and Auditor General.

Perhaps updated figures can be provided for him and he can then report to the committee.

With regard to the average cost of treatment in 2006, the figure includes the cost of outpatient referrals. The cost of an outpatient visit is €100. Therefore, that would increase the average cost of an inpatient referral substantially. What is the average cost of inpatient treatment?

Mr. Pat O’Byrne

I will pass that question to my accountant.

Mr. David Allen

The average inpatient cost in 2006 was €4,300.

What was the figure for 2007?

Mr. David Allen

The cost was €4,267.

I thank Mr. Allen. I have two questions for Professor Drumm. The quality and fairness programme had an objective of having between 600 and 1,000 primary care teams in operation. The HSE had hoped to create 100 in 2006 but only 67 such teams are in position. How did the programme which had a target of between 600 and 1,000 and now only has 67, go so far off the rails?

Professor Brendan Drumm

The HSE had hoped in a five-year period up to the end of 2010 to put in place 500 teams functioning properly with about 10,000 people, so 450 to 500 would cover the country. We think they need to have a take of about 10,000 people to function adequately. Ms McGuinness is working on this all the time. The critical issue we have come across is that primary care teams cannot and could never be planned on the basis of just bringing in new people because, as I said earlier, the system has a lot of people. There is a major issue of reconfiguring people from within our current resources, our own speech and language therapists and public health nurses. It is fair to say that as a change programme this is a significant challenge. We have put considerable effort not just into putting people together, which would have been the easy thing to do. We could have said we would have 100 at the end of the first year and have 200. However, it is a question of what this would mean if they were not functioning for the public. We have put in place very specific performance measures in terms of checking whether the teams are meeting each week and whether they are discussing clinical patients. We decided not to call them primary care teams unless they achieved these targets and this changes the numbers very significantly.

The Chairman is correct. We are at 67 and we hope to hit 97 by the end of this year. We hope to be well advanced with 250 by the end of the following year because we are beginning to see now a realisation and a big buy-in from our own staff on the ground to the fact that this is a good way to go rather than remain within the silo. That learning has been understandably difficult to get going.

I use the analogy of the co-operative out-of-hours system for doctors. When that service first started in the south east, everybody said it would go nowhere because it was a very slow start and no general practitioner would join it but once it reached a certain level and people saw how well it worked, it cascaded very quickly across the country. We are hoping we will begin to see the same result. We are disappointed we are not further ahead but equally we are very hopeful.

Ms Laverne McGuinness

We have developed the primary care teams further than was initially planned. The 500 were at a particular phase with an additional three staff per team. We have received funding for 200 teams. Some 97 of those teams are at an advanced stage; 70 of them are now holding clinical meetings so that means they are meeting on a multidisciplinary basis. People know and understand that ten initial sites were planned, such as Ballymun and Cavan-Virginia. However, there is not great public awareness about the rest of the primary care teams and their locations. From June onwards, we will launch and create a public awareness of the primary care teams. The Minister will be visiting one in Castleisland on Friday. There will be a programme running to the end of the year. Those 97 will be functioning by the end of the year.

The bigger task is realigning the staff who are currently in the system. Three staff is a relatively small number per team but there are 65,000 staff to be reconfigured to the teams. How that worked before was that social care workers, speech and language therapists and occupational therapists all worked on their own in silos, doing their own thing. They all have to be reconfigured and realigned to teams. In addition, the GP is key to and the central focus of the team. A total of 500 of the 2,200 GPs are aligned to the teams. All the teams have been mapped. A lot of preliminary work needed to be done but we are now progressing quite well in the roll-out of the teams. Some of the primary care teams are providing a large and advanced array of services which are over and above what was originally planned. For example, there are X-ray facilities in Arklow which means that people do not need to go to hospital for an X-ray and a diabetes service is provided in Donegal. There will be a public awareness campaign beginning in June.

The committee will be interested in the infrastructure. We have gone to look at the tendering for the development of primary care centres. A total of 460 applications were received with 131 advertisements for locations done in December 2007 and 20 of those will be progressing from the autumn onwards. We are at an advanced stage in this regard.

I was listening to Professor Drumm's interview the other morning. I did not see the "Prime Time" programme. He stated on "Morning Ireland" that there are 60 primary care centres and he expects to have 97 by the end of the year. I am informed that the "Prime Time" programme stated that 84% of the primary care centres currently in existence are understaffed and have waiting lists. This may be a case of the chicken and egg but would it not be better to do what has been done correctly and fully staff the existing centres rather than have 60 centres with more than 80% of them understaffed and with waiting lists?

Professor Brendan Drumm

I think the Minister said that more than 80% of them had GPs who said they were unhappy with the structure. We could have this argument forever with RTE but we do not wish to do so. Several GPs in primary care teams have called us to say that when they spoke positively about the system they were not engaged. There may be a bit of an argument about who called whom and whether people were as negative about them as they were supposed to be. All I can say is the programme reported that GPs were unhappy in the structure but two and a half years ago, we had practically no interest from general practitioners in engaging with primary care teams. We put a huge effort into it and, to be fair to GPs and to our own people, we now at least have absolute agreement that the majority of general practitioners want to be in and want to be in double-quick. This is wonderful, in my view. I do not think this aligns with the view that they are unhappy.

On the question whether the teams will be perfect when they are up and running, the Chairman is correct that we are probably wiser to focus on the quality of the teams we get up and going. If we have really good teams then they will cascade because patients — clients — will want to use them and will demand the reorientation of their existing services. We agree with the Chairman that this focus on quality rather than quantity should be maintained.

I refer to the Irish Independent of Thursday, 22 May which reported that in the first four months of 2008, 1,283 people were on trolleys, an increase of 44% on 2007. How does this report conflict so seriously with the figures given to the committee by Professor Drumm?

Professor Brendan Drumm

I can give the exact figures for waits on trolleys, etc. The first thing to remember is that when we talk about waiting on trolleys — and this can be confused — we admit 1,000 people a day through accident and emergency departments. More than 80% of them are admitted without waiting. When we are talking about percentages we are talking about the percentage of people who wait and we ignore all the people who were admitted directly. It is therefore not a percentage of the total number of people who went through accident and emergency departments into hospital and it can be very misleading and negative from our perspective. The bottom line is the actual overall waiting figures are dramatically down from three years' ago and I can provide the precise figures. In February and March this year, we saw an increase over February and March last year for those waiting but thankfully this is now back down and in May we are below the figures for May of last year. There can be variations but we can provide the committee with the graphs showing the precise month on month and year on year comparisons.

Regarding co-location hospitals and, for example, the proposals for Cork University Hospital. What are the contractual arrangements which the HSE has entered into with the private operators? How can we be satisfied that the taxpayer is not being short-changed on the contractual details such as the renting of what is very valuable land which could be used for facilities for the mainstream public hospital? Will the Comptroller and Auditor General be given sight of these contractual details? It was suggested in the past that these were commercially sensitive, which I do not accept.

Professor Brendan Drumm

I suspect at this stage they have been awarded. I cannot see why the committee would not have sight of them. I suspect when the committee was told that, it was at the time when we were negotiating with the bidders. I suspect we would be required to supply them to the committee if it requires them at this stage.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

Professor Drumm is right. There was a certain point ahead of selection of the preferred bidder where it was obviously very commercial. The only doubt I would still——

For clarity, this was in February, if I remember rightly. Beacon had its planning permission in Cork.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

I would need to check it, but given that no contract has been signed it may be still commercially sensitive in that sense.

Even though planning permission was granted.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

It may have applied for planning permission on the basis that it had been selected as preferred bidder, but we have not yet signed a contract. To go back to the Chairman's question about value for money, this was the point Deputy Fleming picked up earlier, my understanding is that the HSE has Farrell Grant Sparks in, for instance, advising it. It goes through a process there where it must be evaluated. In fairness NDFA advised the Department that it was happy too. There will come a point when the information should become available.

I asked a question in February on the answer to which we subsequently had some disagreement. Regarding the Mercy Hospital, even though the record did not show that Professor Drumm said that meetings would conclude by the end of March, the subsequent correspondence we received from the HSE stated that meetings between the local management and the HSE would be concluded by the end of March. I and members reasonably interpreted that the problem of the still unopened €5 million accident and emergency unit, which has been built since January or February 2007, was about to be resolved. We were being told it was to open on 1 June. However, I read in The Sunday Business Post last Sunday that it may not open on 1 June. What is the real situation?

Professor Brendan Drumm

I am sorry if there was confusion. We obviously go into negotiations on the basis that they will conclude, but we did not reach agreement. I do not think we are any closer to agreement from what I know as we sit here today because in essence what we are talking about here is something that could have huge national implications never mind alone in the Mercy Hospital in Cork. There are 70 attendances at accident and emergency in Cork. Cork is a little bit like Dublin; a lot of the attendances there could go to a primary carer or to a general practitioner. They are not all desperately ill by any means. There are 45 staff in that accident and emergency department at the moment. We are being asked to put in over 20 more. Essentially we would be putting in one member of staff for every patient who attends, be that a cut fingernail or a patient with a significant illness. We could not apply that across the country. Let it be said there are places where it has been applied, but, going forward, there is absolutely no way we could substantiate putting a member of staff for attendance in an accident and emergency department when we have general practitioners who see 30 and 40 patients, albeit that they are not all as sick as those who come into an accident and emergency department.

I have said it before. There are just over 1,000 staff in the hospital. There are 120 doctors there and it has 27 admissions a day. There are 400 nurses in there. We do not run the Mercy Hospital. We give it a budget for the year. A fabulous new unit has been built. We gave it extra budget and resources at that time. Then we were asked for more. I am sorry, I have to say that as far as we see the figures, there is a huge resource in there and I do not believe the people of Cork should have to wait for that accident and emergency department to open.

Who will take responsibility for the delivery of an accident and emergency service on a 24-hour basis when we are now being told it will be open only from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m.?

Professor Brendan Drumm

The Chairman is asking a very interesting question on the interaction between the HSE and its voluntary providers and where people get caught in the middle. As I say, the figures for the public are very clear. We are happy to provide them for anybody. In essence, if we were to go ahead with this at the moment in terms of the proposal that was there, we would have approximately 60% more staffing per attendance than one would have in a much bigger accident and emergency department. There is not another one in Cork but there is another one not too far away. We would just undermine the whole system. Anyway it is not justifiable. I think the question the Chairman is asking me is can we get it open. We can go and meet them again if it becomes clear that it has to open, but it ultimately becomes a decision, I am afraid, at the moment, of the voluntary board.

Before this committee in February Professor Drumm created the impression that it would be opened by the end of March, now we are talking——

Professor Brendan Drumm

I hope what I said was that we were going to complete negotiations by the end of March. I understand the Chairman's frustration. I do not have a clear answer to what happens when we reach a point of total inertia between a voluntary provider and ourselves. We have service level agreements. I take the Chairman's point. Maybe we need to go back and reassess that and say we are not putting in any more resource and this new unit is open. What do we do to deal with that issue? I do not know if Ms Doherty has any comment on that.

Ms Ann Doherty

I think Professor Drumm has covered it.

I have four questions which I will ask together. Earlier Professor Drumm talked about the Dublin scene. Does he have an up-to-date figure on the number of patients inappropriately placed in acute hospital beds in the Dublin area? How many new step-down beds does he expect to be able to provide before the end of the current year? I want to ask about the process of recruitment of consultants. When the Comptroller and Auditor General reviewed this matter, I believe in 2004, he found it was taking an average of 379 days from the time the post was approved to having a person in place, which seems ridiculous. Has the situation improved since then? What is the target period for recruitment from start to finish? Was I right in hearing Professor Drumm saying he thought there were enough consultants?

Professor Brendan Drumm

For instance if one takes areas of Ireland, in the north east——

Is Professor Drumm referring to the overall situation nationally?

Professor Brendan Drumm

No. There are areas in Ireland where our system is spread across sites for a relatively small population. In the north east we have five units open for 360,000 people. If we put all those consultants on one site we would be over international standards for numbers of consultants in terms of physicians and surgeons. That is not to say——

My understanding is that when considered across the different specialties we deviate greatly from European norms in a number of those specialties.

Professor Brendan Drumm

There is a question that is never asked in that situation. For instance we get asked all the time why does Sweden have 20 consultants when we have only three. First, the contract is very different and there is a completely different way of working in terms of consultants being employed on much less money. Second, that country does not have a huge raft of junior hospital doctors. We have got to realign that. We absolutely accept that. What I am saying is that we need more consultants. We need more decision makers, but the money for that has to come from a realignment to a large degree from the present system. However, there are areas, in terms of general surgery, general medicine and so on, where if we had the services configured safely we actually have enough people. There is no doubt there are sub-specialty areas where we have significantly lower numbers than we would like to have.

Professor Drumm used the term "perverse incentive" that may arise regarding the National Treatment Purchase Fund.

Professor Brendan Drumm

I was talking about the co-location at that time.

I thought Professor Drumm used that term.

Professor Brendan Drumm

In terms of outpatients, yes, I did. The Deputy is right.

Was Professor Drumm referring only to outpatients. Is there a mechanism in place to measure the productivity of consultants based on the number of procedures they carry out? As things stand, is there not an incentive for consultants to take it easy with the public patient lists given that if they are not treated as public patients they go through the National Treatment Purchase Fund and come back to the same consultant to be treated as a private patient at the taxpayers' expense? I look forward to getting the information promised by Mr. O'Bryne. If that is happening surely there is a serious structural problem in the overlap between the two issues we are addressing today.

Professor Brendan Drumm

Many of our large hospitals are voluntary. I think this will begin to sort the issue about which the Deputy is concerned. We have got to — as I said earlier we are now doing it — measure performance at a hospital-wide level. We are starting to compare hospitals with hospitals. Therefore, it will become incumbent upon hospitals to enter service level agreements with us going forward, which will now be much more robust, thanks not least to the Comptroller and Auditor General at one stage taking up that issue regarding our voluntary interactions. I think that will allow us to set specific targets for the hospitals to deliver on. That form of close measurement, which is now becoming available to us, will, I hope, change the situation. One could not deny that the situation has been relatively loose in terms of some of those measurements. If one leaves the situation like that, one will end up with difficulties of this nature. It should be emphasised that those who are taking advantage of it comprise a minority of those involved. That the vote was split 80% to 20% shows that the majority of consultants want the system to work. We mentioned earlier that information is being provided to them at activity and resource levels. They have responded by saying that it is the first time anybody has given us the figures. We can now look at one another and admit that we need to make improvements in certain areas. We are in a better position. I do not intend to argue with the description of where we have been.

Is the HSE moving towards a situation in which it will have a service level agreement with hospitals in relation to the number of procedures? How can consultants be tied into such an agreement?

Professor Brendan Drumm

Each consultant is an employee of the hospital. As we make progress with our healthstat process, we will be able to measure precisely what is going on at different levels. I hope I will get a chance to give the committee details of the programme at some stage. It will be going on the Internet next year. The programme will measure waiting lists and activity in individual units, for example. One might ask why we have not gone straight to the public with it. When we examined other systems, we learned that if people were not given time to readjust, they felt they were being beaten up with figures. We have agreed that those figures will be up by the end of this year. We can then put the figures into the public domain. The individual hospitals will have the figures themselves. They will be able to look across the system to see how other hospitals are performing. We have already given them access to information on the performance of comparable hospitals. I think we will see changes in behaviour on the basis of this approach. Consultants do not tend to want to see the institution in which they work failing. They have lacked the information to take on some of the individual challenges within their institutions. We are getting that information. It is early days.

I suppose that could have been said in 1997. We could have had the same kind of expectations then.

Professor Brendan Drumm

Yes.

This committee needs assurance and evidence from the HSE that it has the information systems in place to enable us to measure performance.

Professor Brendan Drumm

Absolutely. I can show the committee what the healthstat system will measure throughout the country. We have given a guarantee that we will give people a year before we go into the open. The committee would be reassured if we were to forward to it an outline of the data at national level. It is picked up at the level of every individual unit. It is very different from 1997. Regardless of the consultant contract, we are far more advanced in individual measurement. Deputy Shortall has often raised the issue of speech and occupational therapy, which was mentioned by Deputy O'Brien earlier. It is the same thing in the community. We are getting there at community level. We will give the committee the template. We will show members what it is actually measuring. It will reassure them that we are heading in the right direction.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

The only thing I was going to add — it will not solve it straight away — is that the 80:20 ratio was deliberately designed, in fairness, to give consultants an incentive. We talked about this. The Deputy is right — if they start to decrease their public work, they will not be able to keep collecting fees for the private work they do within the hospital.

Nobody will monitor whether they are doing 80%.

Mr. Michael Scanlan

No. We are using casemix and HIPE. That is what we have agreed. That was the one thing we insisted on, as I said earlier. The Chairman made the point that it is important that we get information out at an individual level.

I look forward to getting that information next year.

Professor Brendan Drumm

I did not answer the Deputy's question about inappropriate or delayed discharges. I ask my colleague, Ms Doherty, to deal with it.

Ms Ann Doherty

There were 622 late discharges in the week ending 18 May last. Some 55% of them took place in the Dublin academic teaching hospitals.

Professor Brendan Drumm

I would like to speak about long-stay capacity.

There were 622 patients in acute beds nationally——

Ms Ann Doherty

Nationally.

— —who should not have been there.

Professor Brendan Drumm

Well——

They needed more appropriate services

Ms Ann Doherty

They did not have an acute care need at that point.

Ms Ann Doherty

Some 345, or 55%, of those patients were in the Dublin academic teaching hospitals.

How many step-down beds does the HSE expect to be in a position to provide this year?

Ms Laverne McGuinness

The national figure for step-down beds is 492. There are 214 replacement beds. Some of those figures might change as we move over to the first quarter, depending on planning permission. Deputy Shortall referred to the north side of the city. Some 100 beds are being provided in the community nursing unit of St. Mary's Hospital in the Phoenix Park. Twelve of the beds are now open. There have been difficulties in recruiting staff for the hospital. Four beds per week are opening. The Minister commissioned 200 additional private beds, 180 in the Dublin area, to deal with the delay in the implementation of the fair deal at the beginning of the year. There is a concentration on the Dublin area because that is where difficulties such as delayed discharges are primarily found. There will be a focus on the Dublin area in the provision of 360 new home care packages. In some cases, replacement beds are required under the HIQA standards. Beds which are decommissioned for health and safety reasons are replaced on a temporary basis to augment the service.

I thank Ms McGuinness.

I would like some clarification on the consultant contract. I did not pick something up when we spoke about it briefly earlier. Will the contract apply only to new consultants coming into the system? If so, how many years will it take for the existing arrangements to wash out of the system? Professor Drumm mentioned that the new contract might cost the Exchequer €150 million. Will all 2,000 consultants sign the contract? Are they all swapping over to the new contract?

Professor Brendan Drumm

We hope they all will. We hope that a cohort of consultants who work in high-earning specialties will sign the contract, but we are not sure they will. We expect that most consultants will sign the contract.

Does the HSE have any reason to expect they will? If they are not happy with the existing contract, what is in it for them to swap over to the new contract? I can understand that the new people coming in will have to sign the new contract.

Professor Brendan Drumm

Many consultants are not making the kind of money people think they are.

They will be happy with the new contract.

Professor Brendan Drumm

If one examines the bell curve — I do not have it to hand — one will find that most of the earning is done in a fairly tight number of specialties.

Professor Brendan Drumm

Most psychiatrists, geriatricians, paediatricians and general physicians will be perfectly happy to sign the contract.

They are happy.

Professor Brendan Drumm

We will know the relevant number relatively quickly because we have put a three-month timeframe on it. It brings us back to the issue of advisers, etc., that was mentioned earlier. The huge attraction of the contract is that it deals with long-term issues such as pensions, etc.

It is possible that people could be working under the old contract for the next 20 years.

Professor Brendan Drumm

Yes. If that happens, I hope it will happen in a relatively small number of cases.

It will happen in small amounts.

I wish to ask about HSE monitoring. When the Comptroller and Auditor General's report was written, it showed that 39 out of 52 hospitals had reported on their consultant schedules. Has that situation improved since then?

Professor Brendan Drumm

I cannot give an honest answer to that question. Even if today's figure was 100%, I could not put my hand on my heart and say they were all being used. When I worked as a consultant, I did not see people running around or beating me up about what was on my schedule. Equally, a significant number of consultants work way beyond their schedules, as somebody mentioned earlier. We have moved on to the new system. Perhaps I am wrong, but I do not think anybody is doing an awful lot with the implementation of the old contract at the moment. As Mr. Scanlan said, if people remain on the old contract, it may become relevant in this regard. That is an honest answer.

Does the Comptroller and Auditor General wish to make any comments about what he has been listening to?

Mr. John Buckley

I would like to clarify one point. When my office last examined the National Treatment Purchase Fund, it acceded to a request from the fund's Accounting Officer not to disclose the prices of the procedures the fund had bought. We accepted that such a disclosure would affect the bargaining power of the State, etc. We examined the relative costs of the procedures. I will give some examples. The highest cost of a procedure can exceed the lowest cost of the same procedure by as much as 87%, in the case of cataract procedures. I could give the committee a long list of price comparisons. If we are to protect the State's bargaining position, it might be best for us to concentrate on the relative costs of procedures. Perhaps they can be compared to casemix and other indicators to see whether good value for money is being achieved, rather than disclosing the actual prices which can vary enormously and might create a tendency for somebody to up prices and undermine the bargaining position of the NTPF. If that was okay, I think I could commit to looking at that.

To go back to the consultants contract, obviously two or three things are important. The crucial thing is process change. I re-emphasise the point I made about a change management plan and a verification process. In order to get value for money ongoing evaluation of outcomes will be necessary. While we are moving towards greater measurement, the experience in the United Kingdom has been that measurement in itself does not necessarily result in lower costs. When a corresponding exercise was done there, it found the cost increases, especially where people had been working more hours than they were being remunerated for and so on. The third important thing is that where people stay on the old contract, it is very important that we move to have mechanisms in place to make sure we address the things that were not happening for the past ten years. Those are the kinds of things we will look at in our audits going forward.

Thank you, Mr. Buckley. This has been a long session and the second such meeting we have had in a short time. I thank all those from the Department of Health and Children, Health Service Executive, National Treatment Purchase Fund and other health service bodies who attended. I also thank the Comptroller and Auditor General and his officials for the support they have provided to the committee.

This was a fruitful session. I thank all the witnesses for the clear answers they gave to important questions asked by members. The committee will correspond with them about a number of outstanding issues. It will also prepare a report on the two sessions we have had. Is it agreed that the committee notes Votes 39, 40 and 41 and disposes of Special Report No. 55 of the Comptroller and Auditor General? Agreed.

The witnesses withdrew.

The committee adjourned at 2.25 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 19 June 2008.
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