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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 10 Jul 2008

Special Report No. 62 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: The National Museum.

Mr. Con Haugh (Secretary General, Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism) and Dr. Pat Wallace (Director, National Museum)called and examined.

Some members had to leave for the Order of Business. I apologise on their behalf. We are considering the 2006 annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts, Vote 35 — Arts, Sport and Tourism; and special report No. 62- The National Museum.

I make witnesses aware that they do not enjoy absolute privilege. Members' and witnesses' attention is drawn to the fact that, as and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997 grants certain rights to persons who are identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. These rights include: the right to give evidence; the right to produce or send documents to the committee; the right to appear before the committee either in person or through a representative; the right to make a written and oral submission; the right to request the committee to direct the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents; and the right to cross-examine witnesses. For the most part, these rights may only be exercised with the consent of the committee.

Persons invited before the committee are made aware of these rights and any persons identified in the course of proceedings who are not present may have to be made aware of them and provided with a transcript of the relevant part of the committee's proceedings if the committee considers it appropriate in the interests of justice.

Notwithstanding this provision in the legislation, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 158 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister, or the merits of the objectives of such policy or policies.

That said, I welcome Mr. Con Haugh, Secretary General, Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism, and ask him to introduce his delegation.

Mr. Con Haugh

With me are Ms Vera Kelly, principal officer, Mr. Joe Healy, accountant, and Mr. Chris Flynn, principal officer.

I welcome Dr. Pat Wallace, director of the National Museum of Ireland. Will he introduce his delegation?

Dr. Pat Wallace

Accompanying me are Mr. Raghnall Ó Floinn, head of collections at the National Museum of Ireland and Mr. Seamus Lynam, another colleague who is head of services at the national museum.

I welcome the witnesses. There are also representatives from the Department of Finance.

Mr. John Thompson

I am from the public expenditure side of the Department of Finance.

I welcome Mr. Thompson. I ask Mr. Buckley to introduce Vote 35 — Arts, Sport and Tourism; and special report No. 62 — The National Museum.

Mr. John Buckley

Two matters fall for consideration at this session, the Vote for the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism for 2006 and a special report on the National Museum of Ireland, which was finalised in December 2007. Some €546 million was spent from the Vote in 2006, with €182 million being applied for arts and culture, €209 million for sport and recreation and €144 million for tourism. The vast bulk of these funds —€424 million in all — goes to agencies that directly administer the schemes and programmes on behalf of the Department. A further €111 million goes to provide infrastructure and facilities of various types. Some €11 million was incurred in administration by the Department. The National Museum of Ireland is one of Ireland's leading cultural institutions and is charged with safeguarding our national collection of heritage objects. It received €18.3 million from subhead D8 of the Vote in 2007. The examination found that the museum must addess a number of matters if it was to achieve full effectiveness in managing the collections. Areas that needed to be tackled included recording and storage of artefacts, making the collections more accessible to the public and promoting the use of museum resources for purposes of learning.

As with all assets, the cornerstone for management is recording. Together with periodic inventories, this provides a basis for control and management of the collections. In this respect, the museum had some way to go. Its best estimate of the numbers in its collection is approximately 3.8 million items. Of the 911,000 items it considered it was capable of recording in detail only 30% were electronically recorded as of April 2007. As a result, there is a considerable documentation backlog to be cleared. While the museum has advanced in this respect in recent years through the introduction of computerised documentation systems, we found that it needed a time-bound plan to address the documentation backlog.

Documentation is essential so that items in the collection can be properly described, their significance interpreted and their location captured. I understand that, since the publication of the report, progress has been made towards finalising an inventory and location control plan. Because the collections are constantly growing, the museum's resources devoted to storage, documentation and conservation have struggled to cope with the demands. We suggested the museum should find a balance, based on qualitative assessment, between the quantity of objects taken into care and the administrative resources needed to manage them. Since the report was finalised, the museum has approved an acquisitions and disposal policy and as a result has now adopted general principles to be followed when considering the acquisition or potential disposal of collection objects. It set out criteria to be used to guide staff in making such decisions. The fact that current storage is nearing exhaustion and storage conditions are often poor and cramped posed a risk to the collections. In these conditions access to the collections is also hampered. Since the report was finalised the director has informed us that progress has been made in locating more suitable storage facilities.

A further challenge rises from the fact that the museum is required by law to take into possession all material found in archaeological excavations. The scale of excavations associated with development in recent times has led to a significant increase in material from this source. In the short term much material is in the hands of licensed archaeologists and the museum's capacity to store what has been deposited with it has reached its limit.

Regarding public access to the material, there are two major ways of making artefacts available to the public. The traditional way is by physical display. What the examination found in this regard is that, compared to other national and international museums, the opening hours of the National Museum of Ireland are relatively low. The museum has indicated it will address this in negotiation with staff interests. An alternative form of access can be provided through modern technology. In this regard the examination concluded there was scope for increased use of information and communications technologies and for modernising the museum's website. This would hold out the prospect of extending access, both in time and to more people, and deepening the information that can be presented on heritage material.

In terms of overall management there was a risk that in the absence of a strategic plan the work envisaged for the museum under the National Development Plan 2007-2013 might be unfocused and that day-to-day operations might not be linked to the organisation's vision and mission. A subsequent adoption of a strategy statement by the board of the museum is obviously to be welcomed. This should provide strategic direction and connect the overall goals of the National Museum of Ireland with its day-to-day business and enable it to better plan its activities. We also recommended that in addition to setting goals and targets there is a need to put in place indicators designed to measure performance of its key functions.

Overall, in the interim since the publication of this report the museum has, with the support of the Department, moved a considerable distance towards addressing its main findings. The director will be in a position to update the committee in this respect.

I thank Mr. Buckley. I invite Mr. Haugh to make his opening statement.

Mr. Con Haugh

The National Museum of Ireland manages Ireland's national collection of heritage objects and was established as a statutory body on 3 May 2005 under the National Cultural Institutions Act 1997. In accordance with this legislation, the responsibility of the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism relates to the provision of resources, both human and financial, for the museum and to ensuring that the museum complies with the code of practice for governance of State boards. The Department is also charged with the implementation of Government policy as it relates to national cultural institutions, including the National Museum. Operational management of the museum is a matter for the board and staff of that body and it is the responsibility of the board to ensure that its funding allocation is expended in the most effective manner in respect of its strategic goals and objectives.

This special report highlights a number of shortcomings in the adequacy of the arrangements in respect of the national collection of museum heritage objects in the care of the National Museum of Ireland. The scope of the examination, looking as it did at a wide range of the activities of the museum pertaining to the national collection, also highlighted the complexity of the many functions carried out by the museum and the demands required of it in meeting its statutory remit as custodian of the collection.

In recent years the Department has been relatively successful in securing enhanced funding and resources for the National Museum. This enhanced funding and resource allocation has permitted the completion of several major developments. These include: the Museum of Country Life at Turlough Park, County Mayo, opened in 2001; the conservation laboratory completed in 2002; the visible storage facility mentioned in this report, opened in 2004; the provision of temporary exhibition galleries in the refurbished riding school at Collins Barracks which were opened in 2005; and the military history exhibition and galleries. This latter project alone involved an overall cost of more than €13 million and was opened to the public in 2006. Additional staff were secured arising from the establishment of the museum on a statutory basis in 2005 and a further 13 staff were provided in connection with the opening of the military history galleries.

Looking to the future, under the National Development Plan 2007-2013, €85 million has been earmarked for the National Museum in respect of the construction of the Collins Barracks centre block and refurbishment of the Natural History Museum. The NDP also includes €30 million that has been earmarked to meet the storage requirements of the national cultural institutions.

Implementation of Government policy within the framework of budgetary constraint is always a matter of balancing competing demands in the most effective way possible. This is particularly challenging in respect of the national cultural institutions. These institutions are located in prestigious buildings that have high maintenance and development costs and an expanding need for storage. Investment in these institutions has to compete with the needs of other Departments and services. The challenge this poses is illustrated very starkly by the fact that over the first seven decades since the formation of the State the need to deploy the State's limited resources on issues accorded a higher social and economic priority meant that the investment in the national cultural institutions in that period was not as extensive as was required. The findings of the report must be considered against this background and addressed in the light of competing demands in future.

The report correctly highlights shortcomings in the resources available to the National Museum and the findings in this report highlight key areas that require timely and effective solutions. In consultation and partnership with the National Museum, the Department has taken steps to address some of these serious issues.

Substantial progress has been made in the provision of resources to tackle the storage needs of the museum, the preparation for the decant of the Natural History Museum prior to its refurbishment, and the inventory and care of the national collections. A facility has been identified that meets the storage needs of the museum in respect of both the decant of the Natural History Museum and its long-term storage requirements. My Department has formally requested the Office of Public Works to enter into discussions with the lessor of this facility with a view to securing it for the museum.

A proposal received from the director of the museum regarding the human resources necessary to address the decant, the inventory and other issues identified, particularly in relation to the management of the collections, was subject to detailed consideration by my Department and the Department of Finance. Through prioritisation and the appointment of a limited number of specific personnel to carry out time-limited tasks, it has been possible to secure some resources to address the concerns highlighted in the report.

While reports of this nature tend to focus on the shortcomings of an organisation it would be a mistake if the findings in the report were taken as an overall view of the museum. As I mentioned, the National Museum has been set up on a statutory basis for more than three years and it takes some time for new bodies to assert themselves and to get to grips with the many challenges faced, including those highlighted in the report. In spite of the shortcomings identified, the National Museum is a success story with thousands of exhibits that attracted in excess of 1 million visitors in 2007, an important offering in our overall tourism attractions.

Very substantial progress has been made by the museum in addressing the findings of the report. My Department will continue to work with the board and the director of the National Museum to ensure the safety and security of the national collections for future generations so that our people and those from abroad who have an interest in our heritage can continue to enjoy the experience that is the National Museum.

Part of the committee's programme for today is the examination of the appropriation accounts of the Department for 2006. The Comptroller and Auditor General has completed his audit of the account and no issues have been identified by note on it.

As we discuss the accounts of the Department it would be remiss of me not to remember with fondness and respect our former Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy Séamus Brennan, who has passed away. Deputy Brennan was Minister at that Department from June 2007 to May 2008. Despite addressing a debilitating illness with a courage and indomitable spirit that was the essence of the man he was never distracted from giving wholly of himself, his political intuition and considerable administrative expertise in furthering the goals of the Department. He brought to it a freshness of perspective, a desire to challenge and a vision for the future that was motivational and prescient. He was a man of the highest integrity, unfailing courtesy and wit and it was rewarding and enjoyable to work with him. My colleagues across all the ministries that he led with distinction will attest to that. On my own behalf and that of all my colleagues in the Department of Arts, Sports and Tourism, I avail of this occasion to extend our deepest sympathies to his wife, family, extended family and friends on his untimely demise. Go ndéanadh Dia trócaire ar a anam dílis cróga.

May we publish Mr. Haugh's statement?

Mr. Con Haugh

Of course.

We would like to be associated with Mr. Haugh's remarks concerning the late Deputy Brennan. The last time I met him was at the farewell party for a great public servant, Paddy Heffernan. That night, even though he was ill, as Mr. Buckley remarked he showed his usual humour and graciousness as he recognised some of the contributions made over the years by different Ministers. The committee members wish to be associated with the sentiments expressed.

I invite Mr. Wallace to make his opening statement.

Dr. Pat Wallace

I am honoured to be before the committee on what I regard as a signal day in the history of the National Museum of Ireland. I am as conscious of the aspirations, contributions and mostly the disappointments of the eleven directors who have preceded me since 1877 as I am hopeful for the fortunes of those who will follow me. This is a rare opportunity to give an account of our stewardship to the Oireachtas in response to the Comptroller and Auditor General's serious findings.

Our vision is that the National Museum will become a world class institution that promotes the widest understanding and appreciation of Ireland's distinctive culture and natural history, and their place in the wider world. The museum is more than a repository of the nation's treasures, and the storehouse and exhibition centre of the portable artefacts of every period of our history and the natural history specimens that define our heritage and explain the physical landscape of the country. It holds in trust the most extensive record of the island by reference to every rock, mineral, animal, fish and insect that make up its life and landscape and of every artefact of the portable material remains of every period of man's presence in the last 10,000 years. The museum is a unique cultural institution; it is a national treasure in itself.

The museum sits on four sites, three in Dublin and one in Castlebar — it is the only national cultural institution with a branch outside the capital. In addition, we have collections stored at Inchicore and Beggar's Bush, Dublin; Lanesborough, County Roscommon, which is a working space of our laboratory rather than a store, and Daingean, County Offaly.

The National Museum is by far the largest of the national cultural institutions. It is also the national institution most concerned with the island of Ireland and its collections are the most wide ranging culturally, geographically and chronologically and the most varied according to the materials of which they are composed. For example, the archaeological holdings on Kildare Street include the world famous pre-historic gold and Celtic ornaments and the early Christian treasures of Ireland, unique collections of wooden objects from bogs and artefacts from Viking Dublin, some of which I dug up. This collection also includes non-Irish, mainly classical archaeological material, as well as a celebrated South Sea island ethnographical collection from the Pacific, Africa and the Americas, some of which comes from Captain Cook's voyages.

Our decorative arts display collections at Collins Barracks include the national collection of the applied arts, also our collection of historical objects, collections as varied as silver, furniture, the personal collection of the Irish designer Eileen Gray, an oriental collection — scheduled to go on display in November — the historical collection of 1916 and the War of Independence, and much more.

The Irish Folklife County Life Museum at Castlebar consists of items, mainly traditional arts and crafts and details of the associated lifestyle and beliefs dating from the early 20th century but rooted in much earlier times.

There was an accident at the Natural History Museum on Merrion Street last year when a stairs collapsed. It contains specimens of every beast and insect in Ireland and every rock and mineral, as well as comprehensive comparative collections from around the world.

I give this very summary account of the museum's collections to emphasise their extent and variety, the concerns of our core work and the challenges their management pose in so many ways. I give this as background and context because it was not and could not have been included in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. While I do not seek credit, nor do any of my colleagues, for any of our achievements, without the apportionment of due credit, the Comptroller and Auditor General's report could be construed as negative. I am mindful that the Comptroller and Auditor General's report No. 62 is a special report on "the performance" of the museum. Please remember the word "performance" as I make my response to the thrust of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report.

The collections at all four sites, unlike some of the other institutions which make up the national cultural institutions, almost continue to be added to on a daily basis. In archaeology this arises from the requirements of our national monuments legislation in regard to all archaeological discoveries which have to be reported and because all finds from excavations have to be brought to the museum. Acquisitions also arise from the fieldwork investigations. Items and specimens for all branches are also acquired through donation, purchase and at auction. Collections are cared for, researched, published and exhibited by curators who are supported by documentation staff, conservators and technicians.

The museum's responsibilities in respect of acquisitions are enshrined in several Acts, notably the National Monuments Acts 1930 to 2004. The Director of the Museum is also mentioned by office in several other Acts.

The museum has a very long history dating back over 200 years. Many of the problems highlighted by the Comptroller and Auditor General stem from this long inheritance and, until very recently, a total history of neglect, particularly since the foundation of the State. Despite the fact that we have had many distinguished and learned Ministers of all parties, we have been grossly neglected until the eleventh hour.

Many of the museum's collections are old and poorly documented as a result. We have objects such as fish and a definition of, say, an eel in Ireland which was described and defined during the time of Henry Grattan in our collections in a tank. Can one imagine how poor the documentation would be on an object such as that? Many of the National Museum's collections are held in old buildings, buildings which we are lucky to have. I am delighted the Government gave us Collins Barracks, but there are the attendant problems of maintenance and conservation.

The breadth of work encompassed by the National Museum staff is enormous. It is my privilege to head up a most varied team of administrators, IT specialists, financial and personnel specialists, office people, archaeologists, natural history experts such as geologists, an entomologist, that is, an insect expert and a marine biologist, social historians, ethnologists, art historians, military historians, folklife scholars, educationalists, conservators, technicians, restorers, security people, marketing people, a photographer, graphic artists, documenters, store keepers, shop and catering people, as well as buildings and security people.

The director — the post I have the honour to hold — is the keeper of the nation's treasures. He is the official witness of the nation's antiquity and cultural identity, and must be seen to be so. He is the principal official in the cultural area to whom the Government and the public may defer and upon whose advice they can rely. He is paid for his knowledge and experience and for his leadership, but mainly for his judgment. In this regard, the Chairman will possibly know of my informed stands, for example, on the threats to our heritage posed by developments at Durrow Abbey and Tara and of the stand taken by the former Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, regarding my legal right to advise the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government on these matters.

The director has to lead and manage a team of 200 to collect, protect, conserve, catalogue, study, display, publish, explain and give access to the multiplicity of collections which constitute the National Museum of Ireland. He must win financial and other support for his successful running of the place and attract the maximum numbers of visitors to inspect and absorb the messages of the museum's displays and facilities.

The directorship has evolved considerably, even in my time. I had a relatively passive scholarly role but it has evolved into a more proactive one. In my 37 years in the National Museum, 20 of them as director, the museum has changed out of all recognition. In 1972, the year after I joined the staff, the museum had 180,000 visitors. Last year, as my colleague, Mr. Con Haugh, said, we broke new ground by having more than 1 million visitors. That is an incredible leap forward in the visitor numbers to our attractions. One of the reasons was our exhibition of the Sea Stallion, of our work on which the committee will be aware. It was a gift from the Danish Government to Dublin for one year. It was a museum to museum gesture from the Danes. It was a tribute to the National Museum, having done all the excavations in Wood Quay and Viking Dublin.

In spite of the National Museum having more than 1 million visitors last year, we lost the facility of our Natural History Museum building for half of the year. We had two sites but now have four. The display area has increased from 57,000 sq. ft. in 1972 to 127,500 sq. ft. and the number of objects on display from 14,000 to 31,000. Staff numbers have increased from 64 when I became director in 1988 to 200 now; as recently as 1994 there were only 67. We did not have remotely enough people to undertake the documentation programme on the scale to which the Comptroller and Auditor General refers. We could have done little else had we concentrated on that.

In the past decade and a half or so the facilities, resources, exhibitions and management structures of the National Museum have been revolutionised — I use that word advisedly — from what they were. We have opened two new sites, Collins Barracks in 1997 and Turlough Park, Castlebar in 2001. New National Museum departments of registration, facilities, conservation, marketing and education have been established where there was none previously. Entire collections have been moved, new stores have been created and existing storage facilities upgraded. The output of academic papers and monographs has increased and by having its works popularised on television, radio and the print media the National Museum is at the centre of public consciousness in Ireland and beyond as never before. Our presence here today underlines that and we appreciate this opportunity.

In the 1980s the National Museum had to send the Derrynaflan chalice and hoard to the British Museum to be conserved; we could not polish it at the time as we did not have the facilities to do so. Today we have a world-class conservation laboratory of our own capable of conserving a much trickier artefact, the 8th-century psalter from Faddan More, County Tipperary, which was found last year. Any one of these tasks would have been daunting; to have accomplished them all within a short period of time — even if I say so myself and I say it in the presence of my staff who have helped me to do this — is remarkable and something of which I am intensely proud. I am also thankful for the efforts of my colleagues who did it with me and the Governments, Ministers and civil servants who in recent years provided the resources. I hope they will continue to do so.

We are acutely aware of the National Museum's shortcomings in the areas of collections management, access and governance as reported by the Comptroller and Auditor General in report No. 62. We acknowledge them and welcome this report and its recommendations, many of which we had identified and were trying to tackle ourselves. We do not and did not have the staff to do everything the Comptroller and Auditor General says we should have done. After 37 years, I know this better than anyone. However, what were we to do? We could only make the best of available resources, balancing all the demands of the jobs I mentioned while at the same time opening two new branches, putting on displays of heritage and culture to attract visitors, thereby playing a significant part in our national economy, one that justifies further investment in our works, buildings and facilities. Perhaps, if the Comptroller and Auditor General had spoken to me more extensively at the beginning of this process I could have explained all this better to him. We have spread our limited resources as productively and tellingly as possible.

It is probably mainly my fault that we concentrated our limited manpower resources on the opening of museums and the establishment of exhibitions and related education programmes. This is because I believe the National Museum belongs to every man woman and child in Ireland, rich and poor, with whom we must share its collections and who are the people who pay for it. Ironically, we had long ago set aside 2008 as a housekeeping year in which we would take stock of our resources and concentrate more exclusively on collections management and on the upgrading of registration and storage.

It is to the great credit of the Comptroller and Auditor General that his highlighting of these areas has added to our arguments and justifications for additional staff for decanting natural history and documenting the whole National Museum and especially for the improvement and expansion of our storage facilities. I am delighted to say that we were given sanction recently for the requisite numbers of decanting and documentation staff, that the positions of our registration and facilities leaders have been upgraded, that at long last the long overdue position of our head of education, which I had been refused many times, has been sanctioned and the embarrassing situation of having highly qualified scientist-conservators in our laboratory who are badly paid has now been remedied with suitable upgrades.

With the backing of the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism, we are negotiating with our colleagues in the OPW for the acquisition of suitable storage facilities near Dublin, which, if we get them, are very well appointed; they will be able to accommodate appropriate staff and researchers and are commodious enough to eventually allow public access to our collections. This facility, if we get it, will provide ideal accommodation for the collections currently housed in poor condition, to which reference was made by Mr. Buckley, or in spaces that would be better used as galleries, and would constitute a collections resource centre with curatorial offices, a library, archive and high quality research facilities, and provide access and space to enable us to plan and set out layouts for all new displays.

This will accommodate our natural history collections during their decanting from Merrion Street and allow the full restoration and refurbishment of their old building on Merrion Street — the oldest part of the National Museum is the Natural History Museum — which will retain its unique cabinet style Edwardian ambience. The premises in question that we still have not got but are hopeful of getting — I thank Mr. Con Haugh for his support and hope the OPW will be generous and kind enough to give us this space and I have every faith in its officials — will be large enough to accommodate properly for the first time, with the co-operation of our colleagues and friends in the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the archaeological finds from the last ten years, which we have not been able to take in, as is our obligation, with the relevant archives. I have inspected the accommodation and it will be able to cater for this intake for the next 30 or 40 years, thereby changing the whole course of the National Museum's history and any perception hitherto of State neglect in regard to our archaeological and museological heritage.

I am pleased that we have addressed many of the other issues raised in the report. An acquisitions and disposals policy has been completed and approved by the board of the National Museum. We are also addressing how best to extend our opening hours and improve our service to the public. In addition, our website has been completely redesigned with increased public access facilities in mind. We are still tweaking it but it is up and running.

On the operational and management side of the National Museum, our statement of strategy has been prepared and here it is, hot off the presses. It covers the years 2008-12. We have also completed a risk management policy, which has been compiled with the help of the IPA. That has also been approved by our board. Considerable progress has been made on developing a collections disaster plan, which will be integrated into our existing emergency evacuation procedures.

In addition to all the other work we have done in recent years, we have compiled policies on human remains, conservation, loans, education and child protection. We have a customer care charter and a human resource strategy is being worked on, in addition to policies on travel, procurement and risks. We have so many policies that I sound like a broken down insurance man, but we have done all these in the recent past.

I welcome the report, which not only coincides with what I believe to be a revolution in the way the National Museum can deliver on its duties and services to this country, but which has already played a part in delivering the tools to achieve that revolution. I thank the Chairman and other members of the committee, as well as the Comptroller and Auditor General. I respectfully ask them not to go too far away lest the tools of which I have spoken should not be as fully or permanently delivered as we would wish. After all, we want to impress them on their next visit to the National Museum. Rath Dé ar an obair agus ar aghaidh le Ard-Mhúsaem na hÉireann.

With the Chairman's permission, I pay a small tribute to Séamus Brennan with whom I studied at University College Galway. He was one of the proudest products of that university. He was also our Minister until a couple of months ago. I graduated in the same year as him, although I will not say which of us did better. We owe him a great deal. He was a great statesman, as one of the newspapers said today. Rath Dé ar a anam dílis.

We all agree. May we publish Dr. Wallace's statement?

Dr. Pat Wallace

Of course.

The statement is both spirited and comprehensive.

Dr. Pat Wallace

I thank the Chairman.

I warmly welcome Mr. Haugh and his officials from the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism for their second visit to the committee within a short time. I also warmly welcome the director of the National Museum. We regard the museum as a great national treasure. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report sought to ensure that the treasure will be transmitted as effectively as possible to the public. I will ask the director a couple of questions concerning the museum.

As regards the recording system, section 2.10 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report states that during the audit one test was carried out and the exam team attempted to locate 59 objects from a random sample of records in each division. Some 19% of these objects could not be found, while a further 13% had been recorded incorrectly. Therefore, only 68% of a random audit of objects in the collection were effectively present to be audited. A second test was carried out by the Comptroller and Auditor General in section 2.11 where he tried to trace 49 objects on display and in storage areas back to the recording system. It was found that 27% of objects were not recorded. These are significant figures on the recording side. I am aware that at the time of the Comptroller and Auditor General's study, the museum had 911,000 objects, a massive collection. Only 30% of these were electronically recorded, however. My first question concerns recording. Has that 30% recording rate improved since the Comptroller and Auditor General's report was undertaken? If we went into the museum next year or in 2010 would we find that between 19% and 27% of objects could not be traced? There will be grave concern about that.

Dr. Pat Wallace

I understand there would be grave concern about that and I am glad to hear that there is. A number of questions have been raised, if the Chairman will allow me to answer them. Since the Comptroller and Auditor General's report appeared in January and was published in March the figure has gone up from 30% to 35%. Even without the additional required extra staff, that in itself is testimony to the efforts of the museum's registration department. I want to clarify one point. All our materials are manually recorded. The Comptroller and Auditor General is referring to electronic recording, which we came late into the field with in 1995. We now have a plan, which has almost been completed, and staff have kindly been given to us. We did an audit of the number of people we needed to do this job within a short timeframe and have been given the staff to do it. When the Comptroller and Auditor General returns, I think we will have a much healthier situation.

As regards the detail at section 2.10 mentioned by Deputy Broughan, the objects that were not found by the Comptroller and Auditor General's staff were largely natural history specimens where the descriptions in the registers are insufficiently precise to identify them. It must not be forgotten that I mentioned Henry Grattan's eel, so some of the records date back a long time in terms of their manual compilation by the great scientists, and we are the inheritors. We should never decry the 18th or 19th century men and women who made museum collections because it is from their sincerity and scientific sense that we have these records. They might not be as good as we would like now, but they are the basis of Irish science. That explains it.

As regards section 2.11, which refers to checking and locating records, the test found that 27% of the objects were not recorded. This reflects the incomplete status of the electronic records, as I said. That will be addressed in our inventory project. I am thankful to the various Departments for the staff to do that.

I will turn briefly to section 2.18 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report on page 19, concerning storage. Many of the constituents we represent would be concerned with the classification of quality. It seems there is a whole range of classifications. As regards the Irish antiquities division, the Comptroller and Auditor General's report says all of the storage spaces were poor. It also says that all the spaces were poor in the natural history division. As regards general storage, the Department of the Taoiseach assured the Comptroller and Auditor General that no museum objects were stored outdoors, but when our team went in to look they found a number of objects at Daingean, which were stored outdoors. There is one storage area for the art and industrial division at Inchicore, which the Comptroller and Auditor General categorised as very poor. Looking at this report, is it fair to say that a significant number — perhaps a majority — of the storage places for our national collection are in very bad condition and we need to do something urgent to preserve them?

Dr. Pat Wallace

No, it is not in very bad storage. As far as I know, there are six objects at Inchicore. They are large lumps of things that are held together in large crates. That is on Mountshannon Road, for anybody present with an Inchicore interest. We are trying to get out of Inchicore completely. We were never very proud of there. We were shunted in there because we did not get the facilities for storage during the years.

Dr. Pat Wallace

The Department to which we belonged at the time. We have been screaming out for storage for years since the foundation of the State. One must not forget that we have been disappointed many times. Our folk life collection, for instance, was shunted into what is now the centre of the Museum of Modern Art and then we were shunted out of that into the reformatory in Daingean. It shows what the State thought of the national collection to put the national collections of folk life and other departments of the museum into an old reformatory. Even to drive in the gate of it is depressing. If we get this new centre, which we are being promised and on which we are in negotiations with the Office of Public Works and the Department, there will be a revolution in that area, but we desperately need it.

As to the other detail, the Deputy mentioned the Irish antiquities material in the crypt in Kildare Street. It is not an ideal store, as I would be the first to admit. I would not rate it as low as the graduation basis of the Comptroller and Auditor, which is subjective.

Effectively, 96.5% of all of our collection is in storage. There is only 3.5% on display.

Dr. Pat Wallace

Yes. That would be the norm in a major national museum. In the great museums, such as the National Museum in Copenhagen with which I have close associations and, say, the great museums in Germany and the National Museum in Edinburgh, Scotland, there would be the same proportion. There is nothing wrong with that.

On storage, what is happening with the Natural History Museum? It was closed due to the dangerous situation that pertained and then it looked for a while as if the Seanad would be moved into it. The director might be interested to know that I remarked at one time that we were moving out one set of dinosaurs and moving in another set.

Dr. Pat Wallace

In fairness to the elected members of our country, it was not their idea to move into the Natural History Museum; it was the OPW's idea. It was a stop-gap idea that was not very good. There are poles and pillars down the middle of that 1850s building, which is a Victorian hall, and it would have been unsuitable for an assembly. It was custom-built in the 1850s as a museum and, by the way, opened by Dr. Livingstone.

On its current status, the stairs that collapsed has been examined and the OPW has made a report on it. Our staff are still in there but it is not suitable for the public. We will start decanting into that other store space to which I referred, if we get it. If we get this new stores we will decant, which means we will take out everything that is in the Natural History Museum and put it into this stores temporarily, for approximately three or four years, and then reinstate the Natural History Museum in a refurbished conserved exhibition. However, we will have a small addition down the side — a small add-on for which we do not yet have planning permission. I hope that will take a café. We have no proper toilet facilities in that old building. We also have plans for a little underground place there as well. For instance, there is the national geology collection, with everything to do with the petroleum industry, geology, earthquakes, and so on. There is none of it on display, yet we have the most marvellous collection and maps. In the annex, our geology museum was knocked to build the Dáil restaurant in 1962. Perhaps we need a synergy with the members of the committee in the resolution of all of this for the national good.

To answer Deputy Broughan, we look forward to the proper restoration of the very popular Natural History Museum. Particularly with Dublin people, the Natural History Museum is the big attraction.

On the Heritage Council's museum standards programme, it is striking in section 5 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report that the National Museum failed to reach even the minimum standard of the Heritage Council's standards programme on a range of key elements of administration at that time. Dr. Wallace has told us in his spirited response that he has begun to address some of these performance deficiencies. For example, at that time the National Museum did not have a disposable policy, a strategy plan, a documentation backlog plan, an exhibitions policy, a consistent approach to labelling, and so on. The National Museum only partially addressed a disaster response procedure, a critical element of running any museum, and controlling the museum environment. The National Museum was far below the minimum standard of the Heritage Council in many respects when the report was published. Is it Dr. Wallace's intention to reapply to the Heritage Council to ensure that the museum reaches the standard at every level of museum administration?

Dr. Pat Wallace

The Castlebar museum, the newest facility of the National Museum, is undergoing the Heritage Council standards appraisal programme, and we may do so in the future.

The Heritage Council is doing valuable work with small museums. Since it was established by the then Minister, Deputy Michael D. Higgins, in 1997 or thereabouts, it has been doing great work with local and county museums, with which we are intimately bound up. All of the artefacts in many of those are on loan from the National Museum, as they should be.

It is easier, dare I say it, to apply best practice standards where one has a brand new building from scratch, where one has new procedures and newly trained staff, and where one has no inherited old labelling systems. It would be difficult for any museum in Europe to come up to those high, exacting standards.

For example, would the British Museum reach such standards?

Dr. Pat Wallace

I doubt it, but I do not know. I have great respect for it. One of the closest working friends we have in the museum world is the British Museum. It did the conservation of our early Christian remains free of charge.

I thank the director. I have a few questions for the Secretary General on the Vote. On the recent controversy about Lansdowne Road on the sports side, is there any possibility that the State may be liable for additional spending on the plans of the Irish Rugby Football Union and the Football Association of Ireland? Colleagues in the Dáil, for example, Deputy Olivia Mitchell, the Fine Gael spokesperson, have stated that there seems to be a €100 million overrun. Will there be a liability on the State to complete what will be another great national asset when it comes on stream in 2020?

Mr. Con Haugh

The Government decided to provide €191 million towards the redevelopment of Lansdowne Road over a five-year period to turn it into a 50,000 capacity all-seater state-of-the-art facility. The delivery of the programme is the responsibility of the Lansdowne Road Stadium Development Company which comprises representatives of the IRFU and the FAI. The Lansdowne Road Stadium Development Company is the contracting party for the development and management of the stadium. The Department is not a contracting party.

The Department's grant is limited to €191 million. That is in a legal agreement between the Department and the company and the agencies. The balance of moneys to be met must be provided by both sporting bodies. As I stated, the Department's €191 million is covered by a deed of covenant and charge, and therefore the State money is protected. There is no question of additional State moneys being provided, nor have any been sought.

Initially, did the State, through the Department, agree to a particular type of stadium? Has the original contract been fundamentally changed by the two parties that will run the stadium?

Mr. Con Haugh

No. If anything, it has probably been enhanced. An additional 200 car parking spaces have been provided underneath the stadium, provision for which was not made in the original design. In addition, there have been enhancements in respect of the provision of big screens and catering equipment which will be put in place now rather than later. Agreement was reached with the Department in that regard. The two parties involved will meet any additional costs.

When the funding proposals of both organisations were submitted to the Department, we asked the NDFA to examine the position with regard to how moneys would be generated. This was done on two occasions in recent times. The Department received further assurances from both organisations in the past month that the necessary funding package would be in place when required. Approximately €109 million will have been paid out by the end of this month. The balance will be paid between now and May or June next year, by which time we will have paid out almost the entire €191 million. There will, however, be a 3% retention figure. At that stage, the two organisations will be obliged to put their funding in place.

On the Irish Sports Council——

If the Deputy will permit me to intervene, Mr. Haugh has stated €109 million has already been invested. Is the Department represented on the body developing the stadium?

Mr. Con Haugh

No. It is a private company which was established under the Companies Acts. All of the actions of the company and all of the major decisions relating to procurement, etc., are referred to the steering group which is chaired by the Department and on which the Office of Public Works and the Department of Finance are represented.

Who made the decision not to seek membership of that body? This is particularly relevant in view of the fact that the State is the major investor.

Mr. Con Haugh

The State is providing a grant for a company which comprises the two major sports bodies. That is the way the company was formed and the way the Department agreed to proceed.

I would have thought it would have been prudent — in view of this major investment on the part of the State — to have——

Mr. Con Haugh

I do not think so.

Under previous Ministers for Finance — I refer to Mr. Charles McCreevy and the Taoiseach, Deputy Cowen — massive grants were made available for the redevelopment of Croke Park. I presume the position on the two cases would be similar.

Mr. Con Haugh

That is the case. What is happening in this instance is probably even tighter than what obtained in the case of the GAA. The latter proceeded to redevelop Croke Park before making an approach to the then Government. We were not as involved with that project as we are with the one under discussion. We did not have the same oversight in respect of Croke Park.

From where I stand, the Minister and the Department are committed to the current project which involves an item of sports infrastructure required for rugby and soccer. There are times when one becomes annoyed or experiences an element of discomfort in respect of stories which, it appears, are circulated in order to try to derail the project to some degree. The project has been dealt with extremely well by the Department. As stated, €191 million in funding has been allocated to it. No issues arise in that regard and we have received assurances from those involved within the past month. We are hoping there will be another magnificent stadium in place in Dublin by the target date of 2010 and that it will be able to cater for the needs of our rugby and soccer teams.

Some €41.5 million was given to the Irish Sports Council, while €28 million was allocated to the national governing bodies. Why is more of the latter amount not routed through the Irish Sports Council? What is the level of auditing of the moneys allocated to myriad bodies by means of the sports capital fund?

Mr. Con Haugh

There are two aspects to this matter. First, the Irish Sports Council receives an annual grant from the Department. That is a current allocation from which the council which is responsible for the development of sport funds the governing bodies. Each such body must make an annual application to the council and submit a strategic plan. The council makes its allocations on the basis of the information provided. It is free from oversight on the part of the Department, other than what is normal, in this regard. The allocation of these moneys is the responsibility of the council.

The capital grants scheme is administered by the Department. We make allocations to sports bodies, each of which must comply with a series of requirements in respect of tendering — for example, C2 forms must be provided in respect of themselves and also any contractors working for them and invoices submitted — before payment is made. In addition, an inspection policy is in place, under which officers from the Department visit a number of projects on an annual basis. This is to ensure the money paid via the grants we provide went through the relevant bank accounts, that the projects were completed and that the facilities are in use. We have a decent system in place.

I do not agree with the philosophy that the Department should be represented on the boards of organisations for which it is providing grants. If one follows the logic behind this philosophy, the Department would have directors on the board of the GAA and every other sports organisation.

I thank Dr. Wallace for his outstanding submission. It is clear that he loves his job. Is he Accounting Officer for the National Museum of Ireland?

Dr. Pat Wallace

No. Even though the National Museum of Ireland is autonomous, the Secretary General of the Department is the Accounting Officer.

Mr. Con Haugh

I am the accountable officer.

I love that. Perhaps Mr. Haugh will advise us on the structures in place. Why does the National Museum of Ireland, a non-commercial semi-State body, not have its own Accounting Officer? Is that the position with all such bodies?

Mr. Con Haugh

The National Museum of Ireland is a statutory body established under the National Cultural Institutions Act 1997.

Therefore, should the report have been directed to the Department rather than to——

Mr. Con Haugh

While I am Accounting Officer for the Vote out of which the National Museum of Ireland is funded, the day-to-day issues relating to its operation fall very much within the domain of the director.

The National Museum of Ireland was established as a statutory body in 2005. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report is from 2007, while the work was probably initiated at some point in 2006. The National Museum of Ireland has the distinction of being the first statutory body in respect of which the Comptroller and Auditor General compiled a special report within a year of its establishment. Dr. Wallace has my sympathy in that regard because each week representatives of bodies which have been in existence for decades and which appear to have escaped that level of scrutiny come before the committee.

I am aware that Dr. Wallace was previously involved with the National Museum of Ireland. The report focuses on what might be termed a "legacy issue" which relates to the period when the National Museum of Ireland was more directly under the control of the Department. Reference is made to decades of under-funding. The National Museum of Ireland just happened to be established as a statutory body shortly before the report was compiled. I am sure that the process relating to the report was probably in place in the Comptroller and Auditor General's office prior to the National Museum of Ireland's establishment as a statutory body.

It is stated in Dr. Wallace's report that the Comptroller and Auditor General's report could be construed as being very negative. Dr. Wallace's report also outlines some of the work the National Museum of Ireland does and states that if the Comptroller and Auditor General had spoken to him at the beginning of the process, he could have explained some of the museum's activities.

Dr. Wallace is the first senior official appearing before the committee who has taken on the Comptroller and Auditor General, for which he is to be admired. Most Accounting Officers are afraid to take on the Comptroller and Auditor General because they are aware that he will again be making reports on their activities next year. I am not saying Dr. Wallace is right or wrong. However, he is the first individual who has had the gumption to come before the committee, flatly contradict the Comptroller and Auditor General and state the latter issued what was a negative report. I am not adjudicating on the matter, but merely making an observation. I have never seen this before in the all years I have been here and have explained why. I admire Dr. Wallace for the way he concluded, notwithstanding what he considers to be a very negative report, by thanking the Comptroller and Auditor General for his report because it added to the case he had been making for years for additional staff, new facilities and new documents. While that is a light-hearted comment, there is a logic to it. I do not say he is correct to be critical but, at least, it is nice if he believes it to have said it. It is interesting from our point of view to hear it.

The museum did not receive sufficient credit in the report because the recording system was in a shambles and only a sample of artefacts could be found but, as Dr. Wallace rightly pointed out, they were only the electronically recorded artefacts. Reading the report, one could think the museum's artefacts were not recorded but that is not the case. I could go to any Department or local authority and find many of its records since the foundation of the State are not electronically recorded. This is in line with what happens in most State bodies. That is the impression given by the report because the museum has not done this.

Does the Deputy have a question?

We have had an unusual presentation which I would like to highlight. Dr. Wallace has asked for additional posts to help the museum with its decanting. Have those posts been sanctioned? He mentioned the storage area, which the OPW is examining. Is he confident in that regard? When will it be available? He referred to an underground extension in the Natural History Museum. Will he explain what that is about? Does he believe he will secure the additional resources he requires?

The Deputy is looking at the wrong man. Perhaps Mr. Haugh should answer those questions.

Dr. Wallace should answer them. He is the accountable officer, not the Accounting Officer.

The Deputy has asked whether he is confident he will secure the funding. Mr. Haugh will shed light on that matter, given the circumstances of the past few days and the cutbacks announced in the Department's budget.

That is a question for Dr. Wallace.

Will the funding be available to Dr. Wallace and the museum?

Mr. Con Haugh

In co-operation with the Department of Finance, we have secured additional financial and human resources for the work that has to be done arising from the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. We are taking steps in that regard. We did not announce anything in the Minister's contribution to the debate last night about cutting back on posts. As far as we are concerned, they will be in place.

That is good.

Mr. Con Haugh

On the storage issue, €30 million is allocated under the NDP. We have asked the OPW to commence negotiations with the lessor of a facility which I hope will address a significant number of the storage issues raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General and Deputy Broughan and which were referred to by the director. I hope the centres in Inchicore, Daingean and so on will be no more if we can get this facility up and running as a priority. Furthermore, under the plan, €70 million is available for the new centre block at Collins Barracks, at which significant storage facilities are also provided for. We are moving ahead on those issues.

Dr. Wallace will go home a happy man.

Dr. Pat Wallace

I will. I thank Deputy Fleming for his praise because it is a useful building stone. It is wonderful to think we will have a storage facility which will revolutionise the museum for a generation at least.

We have sanction from the Department of Finance to recruit the additional staff. Some of the posts are internal regradings and advertisements will be placed. Once we recruit the decanting and documentation staff, we will get under way immediately, which work will dovetail with that on providing the storage facilities, mentioned by Mr. Haugh.

With regard to the underground extension, we hope to provide a gallery on the lawn in front of the Natural History Museum building. Underneath the statue of Sergeant Major Parke is the only place we can build to house the national geology collection and provide a reception area for children. We do not have space to do this in the museum. No consideration was given in the 1850s to children, hands on displays, cafés or proper toilets, for which we need to provide under the front lawn. There is no sanction for this work but that is a hope and aspiration of the museum and its board.

Appendix D contains a chart of the museum. The director reports to the museum's board. Is Dr. Wallace a member of the board?

Dr. Pat Wallace

No. The museum was set up under 1997 legislation and activated in 2005 by the then Minister, Deputy John O'Donoghue. I report to the chairman and the board.

The chief executive of almost every other organisation who appears before the committee tends to be a member of the board. Will Mr. Haugh explain this?

Mr. Con Haugh

That is not standard. I refer to the boards under our aegis, for example, the Irish Sports Council. The chief executive is not a member of the board. It is not usual.

I am interested in the works on motorways. I compliment the National Roads Authority on the book it issued entitled, Seanda, dealing with the finds uncovered. An unlimited number of archaeologists are unavailable for NRA motorway activity. I have seen dozens of them on individual sites but do not know how many are employed. Are more needed? Does the museum supervise their work? What happens to the finds? Do they end up in county museums and so on? They are uncovering a phenomenal number of finds.

Dr. Pat Wallace

The NRA road building programme has unearthed amazing stuff in huge volumes, including at the site in Woodstown, County Waterford, an early Viking settlement, that is almost urban. There is an amazing number of new sites. Our problem concerns the authority the archaeologists who deliver the patient to the door have. There are not enough nurses to look after the patient. That is my job but we will have to work with it. The acquisition of our new store will be the first major step in allowing us to take in all the material we have been unable to take in and make it accessible to the public later.

Where does the NRA keep that material?

Dr. Pat Wallace

The authority has yards, stores and sealed off contractor areas. It is a huge organisation with depots around the country and has the material in storage. A number of the contract archaeologists who did well during the economic boom also have stores. We will be able to relieve them of all that material when the new store is available.

I refer to the Vote. Mr. Dermot Mangan is announcing the full team to represent Ireland at the Olympic Games as we speak. Complaints followed the Athens games and many reports and assessments were conducted. By 2006 I presume the findings were being implemented by the Department. What funding was provided that year for athletes preparing for the Olympic Games? Is Mr. Haugh happy with the direction of funding for this preparation? Can we have an update from 2006 to date on this matter, which is topical this summer?

Mr. Con Haugh

Funding in respect of the Olympic Games rests between the Irish Sports Council and the Olympic Council of Ireland. In 2006 a sum of approximately €350,000 was paid out to the Olympic Council of Ireland.

Mr. Con Haugh

For the costs associated with preparing and sending teams abroad to get ready for the games. That is the figure I have. There are significant numbers of people involved in the preparation of the team. The governing bodies are funded by the Irish Sports Council, the Institute of Sport supports athletes, there are carding schemes in place for athletes and the Olympic Council of Ireland has responsibility for selecting and sending the team.

As I said, the current funding relationship is between the Irish Sports Council and the Olympic Council of Ireland. Funding is decided on that basis and the Department does not have a direct role in the area. My understanding is that while there has been some tension between various parties, all the preparations are going well and the athletes are happy with the supports in place. As was already mentioned, the Olympic team is being launched today.

I am concerned because the money in question is taxpayers' money allocated by the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism, yet the Department seems to take a hands-off approach, despite the myriad groups involved. I understand it is up to individual athletes to perform, and we wish them every success.

We are looking at the report produced after the games in Athens, half way between those Olympic Games and the games in 2012. What is the Department's view on that report? Was the report presented to the Department or to the Olympic Council of Ireland and did it advocate additional funds? The sum of €350,000 given to the Olympic Council of Ireland would not go far. It would only pay for an office and a few staff. It would not prepare an athlete——

Mr. Con Haugh

The role of the Olympic Council of Ireland is very clear. Its role is to select and send athletes to the Olympic Games. The preparation of the athletes is the responsibility of the national governing bodies of sport, the Institute of Sport, the national coaching and training centre and the athletes themselves. There are various supports in place from the Irish Sports Council to assist in meeting the costs associated with this.

The Irish Sports Council budget in 2006 was approximately €40 million and it was €57 million in 2008. In the four-year period from 2004 to 2008, approximately €30 million was paid out by the Irish Sports Council on what is loosely called "getting ready for the Olympics". There has, therefore, been significant investment in the Olympic Games. The Institute of Sport was set up in 2006, arising from the review of the games in Athens. That review made a series of recommendations covering the Olympic Council of Ireland, the Irish Sports Council and the governing bodies. These recommendations have been implemented in the past few years.

With regard to sports capital grants, the estimate for these was €67 million and the outturn was €61 million. The previous year the estimate was €62 million and the outturn was €57 million. Can we have an update? It seems the full allocation provided by the Oireachtas in the Estimates is not being drawn down. I suggest one reason for this is applications are being held up in the Chief State Solicitor's office.

As Deputies, we are plagued with queries on applications. Deputy Broughan would be happy to see the extraordinary level of verification and certification that must go on to draw down a capital grant. How many applications are held up in the Chief State Solicitor's office? This is a bone of contention and we would like to deal with the issue today. I am aware of groups which made applications for relatively small amounts, but their applications are held up in the Chief State Solicitor's office. It is not a priority for that office to clear this documentation. It has other priorities, but in the meantime the sports organisations are held up. Does Mr. Haugh know how many applications for grants for work that has been completed are held up in the Chief State Solicitor's office? Does Mr. Haugh understand my concern?

Mr. Con Haugh

I do understand. The Estimates for a particular year are decided in or around December of the previous year. Therefore, we have a figure provided for us in the Estimates for expenditure under the sports capital programme for the following year. The programme is demand-led in so far as organisations are required to provide certain documents for the Department in order to make progress on the project and then to submit the full documentation. When we are satisfied with that documentation, we pay out the moneys. Some years there might be a saving of €2 million, but other years we might need to have supplementary moneys provided from other subheads. The programme is demand-driven, so it is nearly impossible to match the Estimate exactly. Take the Chairman's constituency for example. Clubs there might have all their documentation ready by November, but they could also have it ready, but not submit it until December or February. That pattern is understandable.

With regard to the Chief State Solicitor's office, there is a requirement to protect State funds in so far as any project costing more than €150,000 must have a deed of covenant in place. There has been significant comment about the perceived delays in the Chief State Solicitor's office. Often, however, that is not the position. Within the past week I was advised that the Chief State Solicitor's office was not dealing with two particular cases. I pursued the issue and discovered both cases were the responsibility of the organisations. This may be because organisations often have their legal work dealt with by a member of the organisation on a pro bono basis. This is how communities operate here. Perhaps in those cases those doing the pro bono work do not deal with the applications as efficiently as they should. That is not to say there are no issues with the Chief State Solicitor's office. We raise issues regularly and would like to know of any particular cases. Generally, there is a dedicated group of people within the Chief State Solicitor's office who deal with our cases and we have regular contact with them, probably on a daily basis.

I understand. The real bone of contention is that the €150,000 is too low. In addition, the 22-year lease required is too long. The balance is askew. I am reminded of the National Aquatic Centre, but then we were dealing with a €2 shelf company.

With regard to the Lansdowne Road stadium, has the company with which the Department is dealing a similar deed of covenant for 22 years?

Mr. Con Haugh

Yes, that is in place for 30 years.

Mr. Haugh can understand from where I am coming. I will ask the committee to support me in our report in saying the 22-year requirement is excessive for the amount of money involved, which might only be a tiny proportion of the total investment that a club or organisation is making when considering its freehold and the assets of the building and land. We know the Department does not want the property sold within a short period, but 22 years seems excessive. What is the Department's view on that? Should those two thresholds be examined?

Let me help the Deputy. The Deputy mentioned the figure of €150,000.

That is a cumulative figure.

That is the point I was going to make. It is cumulative. I spoke to Mr. Haugh on this issue previously. For example, a club may have got a grant of €90,000 two years ago, but because this has accumulated over a number of years it is unable to get clearance from the State solicitor's office. That office is looking for documentation from the local authority that owns the land. The guarantee is totally secure, but because the grants have accumulated over the €150,000 limit over a period of, perhaps, ten years, the clubs are being crippled with interest rates. It is difficult to get a straight answer from the State solicitor's office. It may in the end put it all in writing and say the fault lies with the club or the club's solicitor, but to get that information from the State solicitor's office one would want a battery of office assistants to support one and keep on their tails, because it is difficult to get a response.

Mr. Con Haugh

As somebody who got a bit of a whipping when I visited the Committee of Public Accounts some years ago, because we did not have a deed of covenant in charge in place for €100,000, I am particularly cautious not to err again. Perhaps there is some room for review of the figure. Taking into account the committee's views on the issue, we will feed those views into the annual review we do of the sports capital programme.

I am conscious of the fact that it can be problematic if one was given a grant worth €50,000 five years ago and one receives €120,000 now and one must have an accountant in charge. Nevertheless, it is important to have something in place to protect——

We are not trying to whip the Department but to clear the air.

Mr. Con Haugh

Not today.

The clubs badly affected are in disadvantaged areas which do not have the know-how, the resources or even access to solicitors to advise them properly. These are the clubs which are almost victimised. They are paying interest to the banks while all of this is bogged down in the Office of the State Solicitor. It is frustrating for the committee but very damaging for the clubs which are dealing with young people at risk.

Mr. Con Haugh

I can empathise with the views expressed by the Deputies. We will certainly have a look at the issues raised.

The threshold should be re-examined.

Mr. Con Haugh

I am not sure how the Comptroller and Auditor General might look at us in a situation where we decided to increase the figure, for example, to €250,000. I am merely sharing my view with the committee. The Comptroller and Auditor General might decide we need to be——

We ask Mr. Haugh to re-examine both the length and the cumulative aspect and perhaps limit the examination to grants given in the past couple of years.

I have a final question on the sports section. I refer to the horse and greyhound industry fund. In 2006 the Department provided €70 million for the industries, 80% of which was given to the horse-racing industry. This is State support. I ask Mr. Haugh to comment on the amount of income tax forgone as a result of the tax-free status of certain aspects of the horse-racing and greyhound industries. What was the full value of the State support provided in 2006 for the industries in direct grant assistance and income tax forgone?

Mr. Con Haugh

The only information I have relates to the horse and greyhound racing fund which comes within the ambit of the Department and which, as the Deputy will know, has its origins in the 2001 Horse and Greyhound Racing Act which provides that both industries be given a level of support commensurate with a figure generated for 2000 when the rate of excise duty was higher than it is now. Four years ago the Government decided to increase the threshold from €250,000 to €550,000. Towards the end of this year the figure of €550,000 will be exceeded. The Department is now commencing a review of the fund in the context of its renewal by the Government. There is a limit on the amount of money that can be provided for the agencies under the fund.

I presume the Secretary General will not take a blinkered view when reviewing the fund as it should be examined with regard to the total State contribution in respect of income tax forgone. I know the matter is being addressed and information provided but it is relevant to the industries just as much as the direct grant paid.

Mr. Con Haugh

I think there is another forum or a group being established.

Once there is co-ordination, I am not asking the Secretary General to duplicate it but rather asking that it form part of the total picture.

Mr. Con Haugh

That would be our intention.

I refer to clubs in disadvantaged areas. Subhead C7 includes a grant to support sport in disadvantaged areas, yet there was no spending in 2006. Why was that the case? What spending has been undertaken since?

Mr. Con Haugh

My understanding is that projects were not approved in 2006 to draw down moneys. The funding set aside for the Department was designed to encourage increased participation in sport and physical activity among disadvantaged young people. The scheme was not up and running in 2006 and the money allocated was carried over to 2007 when funding was allocated for two schemes. The funding for the Department was an element of a larger set of economic and social disadvantage funding measures. Funding of €1.98 million was allocated from the dormant accounts fund in 2007 for projects to increase participation in sport and recreation in disadvantaged areas. Some 781 projects were funded, with grants ranging from €500 to €10,000. They were managed through the local sports partnerships and local authorities where local sports partnerships were not in existence. The money was carried forward from 2006 to 2007.

I refer to Campus Ireland and an estimate of €10.7 million with a total spend of €2.24 million.

Mr. Con Haugh

One of the delays was caused by a requirement of Fingal county development plan that a comprehensive planning study be undertaken to determine the appropriate mix of sports, commercial, leisure and amenity facilities to create a campus at Abbotstown. That work was ongoing during 2006; therefore, the investment was not required in that year. As the Chairman will be aware, there is a Government commitment to provide a sports campus at Abbotstown. The national development plan provides an amount of €149 million towards achieving that goal. A project management and design team is working on the project. It is expected that planning permission will be sought by the end of this year, with I hope delivery by 2011.

In his response to Deputy Fleming's question about the Irish Sports Council and the Olympic Council of Ireland, the Secretary General said there were tensions between agencies. Is everybody happy now that the level of funding which the Olympic Council of Ireland believes it requires for the Olympic Games will be met in full? Is the Secretary General satisfied that all reasonable requests have been met regarding preparations for the Olympic Games in Beijing?

Mr. Con Haugh

I think so. As I said in response to Deputy Fleming, the budget for the Irish Sports Council has increased from €40 million to €57 million in two years. The investment in preparations for the Olympic Games is of the order of €30 million. I am not aware of any ripples of complaint but perhaps that will be an issue come September. My understanding is that the athletes are very happy with the support they are receiving and that the governing bodies are particularly happy. Last week I attended the launch of the Paralympic team and they were generous in their praise of the Government and the Irish Sports Council for the support provided for them. I believe the same applies to the team for the Olympic Games.

Is the Olympic Council of Ireland happy?

Mr. Con Haugh

I suppose it is happy enough. I have not heard it is unhappy.

I thank Dr. Wallace and Mr. Haugh for their presentations. I note from Dr. Wallace's presentation that the additional storage space presents the major blockage and I am pleased that its inclusion is confirmed in the national development plan. Is there a timescale for its provision?

Mr. Con Haugh

Between 2007 and 2013. The storage issue is obviously a priority. As I said, we have asked the OPW to talk to the owners of the premises identified with a view to finding out about the cost.

Have costings not yet been identified?

Mr. Con Haugh

The OPW will be doing that work for the Department.

We will take up the issue with the OPW.

With regard to the National Museum of Ireland, in his report the Comptroller and Auditor General referred to a desire to see an improvement in opening hours and public access. I am not aware of individual opening hours and know that full access at weekends is a bone of contention. Has there been an improvement?

Dr. Pat Wallace

We have to admit that we could do better on that front. I refer to the tabular statement information provided in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report on opening hours at the various museums. We look bad with 38 hours as against 43 at the National Gallery of Ireland. During the years we have traditionally stayed closed on Mondays. Several other institutions do likewise. It gives us a chance to clean up the place. All the electrical and painting work that is needed in the museum can be done on the one day of the week on which it is closed. If we were to open at noon on Sundays rather than 2 p.m., on Thursday evenings and on bank holiday Mondays, our average would increase on the scale that was mentioned. I am not convinced of the value of late-night opening on Thursdays. It would not take much to tip those averages in our direction in a more generous way. We got a firm of consultants to compile a substantial report on front-of-house services for us after the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General published its report.

If we are to change these practices, as we want to do, we will have to conduct some extremely delicate negotiations with existing staff. When Séamus Brennan — may the Lord have mercy on him — was Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, he wanted us to open for extra hours. He was right to badger us about the matter after last year's general election. Our staff already have expectations of whole layers of overtime. We have to be very careful. It will have to be delicately handled by my colleague, Mr. Séamus Lynam, who is in charge of this area. I have every confidence that we will open for extra hours.

The chart in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General makes the situation at the museum look worse than it is. Members should bear in mind that the chart does not include receptions. The museum was opened for three or four hours one evening last week to facilitate the holding of a big reception for delegates to the World Archaeological Congress. Book launches take place at the museum all the time, but they were not factored in by the Comptroller and Auditor General. While matters are not as bad as they seem, we could do with some help. The preparations we have undertaken with our consultants will make that possible. The negotiations will have to start soon.

Is the museum committed to making a change in this regard? It is important that the museum should open on bank holiday Mondays.

Dr. Pat Wallace

The Deputy is absolutely right.

It is absolutely crazy that a public facility like the museum is not open to visitors on bank holiday Mondays. One likes to do things like visiting museums on bank holidays.

Dr. Pat Wallace

I have first-hand experience of that. I love to go to the museum on bank holiday Mondays. I can get some research done on such occasions because very few staff are around.

The public might like to visit the museum on bank holiday Mondays as well.

Dr. Pat Wallace

They certainly can. It is my desire to do the three things — Thursday opening, bank holiday opening and two hours' extra opening on Sundays — immediately. We can probably afford to do that with our internal staffing resources. The Deputy mentioned the need for bank holiday opening.

Yes. When I have come to Dublin with my children on bank holiday weekends, I have found that certain places are closed. Visitors from outside Dublin like to have a sense of ownership of these facilities. They are precluded from going to the museum because they are not in Dublin when it is open. It is important to ensure that visitors to the city can avail of these facilities on bank holiday weekends.

Dr. Pat Wallace

Yes.

Is the National Museum of Ireland involved with other museums throughout the country?

Dr. Pat Wallace

Yes. The National Museum of Ireland provides the stuff that is on display in county museums in places such as Ennis, Galway, Dundalk, Monaghan and Wexford. Some local museums make the mistake of trying to be mini-national museums, for example, by having a ridiculous chronological division between the Stone Age, the Bronze Age and the Iron Age. That is like trying to transmit college lectures on archaeology to the public. It should not be like that. County museums should exhibit material that is distinctive to their regions. The museums in places such as Waterford, Clonmel and Cork are doing better than the museums I mentioned because they are breaking from the constrictions of a national institution to tell a distinctive local story. I strongly advise other museums to do the same. The National Museum of Ireland has an extraordinarily close relationship with county museums, as it is required to have under legislation. The former Minister, Síle de Valera, designated that such museums have certain powers. We work together, lámh le lámh.

Is it feasible for some of the things which are in National Museum in Dublin to go on tour? Does that ever happen?

Dr. Pat Wallace

It happens all the time. My colleague, Raghnall Ó Floinn, took one of the great shrines of the Middle Ages — a mias — to the branch of the museum in Castlebar the other day. We do things like that all the time. The county museums can get what they ask for on loan, rather than permanently, as long as they can store it in suitable conditions — at the right temperature and with appropriate security, etc.

I understand. I thank Dr. Wallace.

I apologise for being late. I would like to ask Mr. Haugh a question about the Department's application and assessment criteria for the sports capital programme. Under the Department's rules, a group that receives funding for a project must be in a position to meet at least 30% of the cost of the project from its own resources. People who are involved in groups which have made applications have told me they think the bar is set a little high. Other grant-awarding authorities such as local authorities do not set such a high threshold. Does the Department have any plans to reduce the figure in question to 20% or 25%? Why was it set at 30%?

Mr. Con Haugh

The threshold was set at 30% following the 1998 review of the sports capital programme. Responsibility for sport transferred to the new Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation when it was established in 1997. A review of expenditure under the sports capital programme was carried out by the new Department because it represented one of its major areas of expenditure. As a result of the review, it was decided that there should be a local contribution of 30% to each project.

Deputy Collins is probably aware that the figure in question will be reduced to 10% in areas of disadvantage from this year. The Department is currently involved in the development of a strategy for sports facilities. The matter will be considered in that context. We like to work with organisations that can meet a significant proportion of project costs from their own funds. It is better to deal with robust organisations. If the level of funding that needs to be supplied by organisations is reduced, there is a danger that many "paper clubs" will apply for moneys. If organisations have to come up with the money themselves, they will have to be disciplined. They do not need to have 30% in the bank — they can have 15% in the bank and get a loan from a credit union for the other 15%. We take a flexible approach to such matters. I hope the Deputy understands the need for this requirement, which rules out a significant number of applicants each year.

I do. When is it expected that the strategy which is being developed will be completed?

Mr. Con Haugh

It will probably be finished in the autumn.

When the Accounting Officer of City of Cork VEC attended last week's meeting of this committee to discuss a gallery in Cork that receives funding of €1.2 million from the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism each year, he mentioned that the VEC had incurred liabilities as a result of a cost overrun on an exhibition that was held at the gallery when Cork was European Capital of Culture. I understand there have been problems for a number of years pertaining to the transfer of legal ownership of the gallery from the Department of Education and Science to the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism. Can Mr. Haugh update the committee on the progress being made in resolving those difficulties?

Mr. Con Haugh

The Crawford Municipal Art Gallery is a national cultural institution — it is one of our family — in the sense that the Department gives it annual funding to help it to meet the costs of its operations. The City of Cork VEC is involved, on an agency basis, in helping the Department to provide that support. The board of the gallery, which was put in place some time ago, is responsible for running the gallery.

A number of issues were not dealt with as neatly as we would have liked when we were assuming responsibility for the Crawford Municipal Art Gallery. For example, we wanted to ensure that proper title to the premises was in place to allow the OPW to have a role in its maintenance. We are working on other issues such as staff pensions with the Department of Finance which is dealing with them expeditiously.

We are committed to ensuring that the Crawford Municipal Art Gallery is managed in a manner that is in line with best practice. I read the report of the contribution made by the chief executive officer of City of Cork VEC to last week's meeting. It caused me to sit up and reflect on the need to keep an eye on the organisation in question. As the Chairman said, there was a substantial cost overrun on a significant exhibition to which the Department had contributed financially in the context of Cork's year as European Capital of Culture.

We also have encouraged the board to get consultants to consider a strategic plan for the organisation. I gather a draft has been prepared and a final report is expected. We are giving the matter our attention. There were a number of loose ends, as it were, which were not as pristine as we would have liked them to have been if we had been embracing this anew. However, we are dealing with them in consultation with the Department of Finance and the Office of Public Works. There are also issues at Cork level which we must address with the VEC.

What funding does the Irish Museum of Modern Art receive? What is the connection between the Department and the museum's board of directors?

Mr. Con Haugh

In 2006, the Irish Museum of Modern Art received €8.8 million from the Department. Pay costs were €3.6 million, non-pay costs were €1.5 million and capital costs were €3.6 million. The board reports to the Department as a body which is accountable to the Department in respect of the moneys made available to it. We also have a departmental representative on the board which is located, as the Chairman will be aware, in the Royal Hospital Kilmainham.

With regard to the allegation of pornographic material being exhibited, which was the subject of irate calls to "Liveline" and a series of newspaper articles, what was the Department's reaction to the controversy, given that it heavily funds the museum?

Mr. Con Haugh

Art can be controversial at times.

While I am liberal on these matters, surely in the case of an art exhibition that is pornographic in nature, the museum should have had warnings in place for parents of children visiting the museum that exhibits of this nature were on show?

Mr. Con Haugh

I do not have details of the case. However, it is the board's responsibility to make sure that proper care is taken in these situations. If the Chairman wishes, I can find out what the issue was. I am told there was a warning sign at the exhibition and there was a person at the door to reinforce it.

That is not what has been reported. While I do not believe everything I read or hear, there appears to be a conflict of evidence on this matter. Parents and others were upset that there was no warning and the attendants or people staffing the exhibition did not issue warnings about the contents of the exhibition. Perhaps the committee can have a report on the matter.

Mr. Con Haugh

I shall get a report for the Chairman and come back to him on the matter. As I said, my information is that there was a warning and a person at the exhibition to reinforce it.

I thank Mr. Haugh.

On sports capital grants and moneys granted in recent years, the Department is examining what moneys have not been drawn down. What is the value of the grants that have not been drawn down and could be reallocated to clubs and groups which could use the money? Is a deadline in place for completing this work?

Mr. Con Haugh

This is an ongoing piece of work the Department has in respect of withdrawing grants. In the past, we would have taken the view that organisations primarily comprise voluntary people from the community who might not have the wherewithal to be energetic in relation to providing us with the documentation which would lead us to pay the grants. We took a very softly-softly approach, even though there is a provision within the scheme that if the grant is not used, it will be lost after 18 months. In recent times, however, we have tried to accelerate that, mainly because we have a very significant overhang on the programme and significant moneys which have been allocated in the past five or six years which are contributing to it. We are trying to get people to use the grant or lose it. In that context, we have a programme, although it is not as energetic an initiative as I would like. Nevertheless, we write to the sports bodies and put them on three months' notice. If they do not comply in that period, we issue another letter stating we have to withdraw the moneys. Any moneys withdrawn are not reallocated but used to reduce our level of overhang.

While it is difficult to quantify because grants are issued on a rolling, year-on-year basis, does Mr. Haugh know the value in 2007 of grant allocations which have not been drawn down?

Mr. Con Haugh

I believe the figure would be in the order of €170 million. For the committee's information, we have withdrawn grant allocations to the value of €16.5 million between 2001 and 2006. However, we have in place now a more strenuous and energetic withdrawals programme. In the first five months of this year, we have withdrawn more than €6 million in grants. This will be a very significant feature of our programme in future.

It was noted earlier that the grant application process has become more stringent. This is a good development. Given that the money that can be allocated every year is limited, the failure of certain clubs, sports bodies and groups to use grants allocated to them is obviously detrimental to other applicants. The change in this year's application under which planning permission must have been sought, where required, is a positive step forward because the Department is able to see early tangible results from the funds it has granted, including rapid upgrading of facilities.

Mr. Con Haugh

To clarify, the overhang of the investment at the end of 2007 was €190 million which we are trying to work through. Often, however, when we make the move to withdraw grants we find ourselves subject to significant representations from people in this room——

That is true. I have written to the Department before.

Mr. Con Haugh

— —who cannot see any reason the grant should have been withdrawn.

That is a fair point. I find the Department very reasonable in dealing with such cases. If there are genuine reasons for a delay — sometimes organisations are caught up in legal matters — the Department generally makes allowances for them.

Mr. Con Haugh

I believe those working in the Department are caring people in so far as they can be approached by organisations. We do not wield a machete every time such organisations ring up or anything like that. Equally, however, we have to run the programme fairly, efficiently and effectively. The same position applies in relation to the issues around the Chief State Solicitor's office. If people here have particular problems, we would like to hear from them and we are prepared to help. I am not saying we want an avalanche or anything like that but there would be priorities which would have to be looked at.

Does the overhang of €190 million affect the Department's allocations, for example, in terms of the funding announcement for 2008? I do not believe I can ask Mr. Haugh exactly when that announcement will be made. How does the overhang affect future grants?

Mr. Con Haugh

Clearly there is an effect in so far as we have an overhang. At the beginning of this year we had an overhang of €190 million. In 2008, our spend probably will be around €60 million. Therefore, if we made no allocations the overhang would be reduced to €130 million. We are obviously trying to be prudent and we seek to avoid further ratcheting up significant levels of commitments. There is a certain amount of money —€60 million per annum — in the budget over the period of the national development plan and we have to manage prudently within it.

I have a final question for Mr. Haugh. The Department does a rolling or an ongoing audit of all projects as it pays out at various stages. Has it taken steps to recover money from clubs having uncovered something untoward?

Mr. Con Haugh

The programme we have in place, while quite extensive, is not as extensive as I would like. I am not sure whether we have had occasion to seek the refund of moneys from any organisation. I will check it out for the Deputy. There may have been cases where we were less than happy with a project. However, having visited the project, work to the value to what we gave had been carried out. We might not have been able to see if it all had gone through the bank but there was an explanation. I will have to check this for the Deputy.

Has Mr. Buckley any final observations?

Mr. John Buckley

The museum, with the support of the Department, has indicated it accepts most of the recommendations and is implementing them, which is welcome. Future audits will examine how the museum is doing in that regard.

Some members suggested a certain conflict between the Comptroller and Auditor General's position and the director's. There was no conflict. The energy and enthusiasm of the director is not incompatible with the managerial view of my office. Due to the priceless nature of the museum's materials, my office would insist that inventory controls and so forth are important. Statements of strategy are also seen as important.

I appreciate the view that long before managerialism arrived, organisations such as the National Museum were functioning quite well. However, like any other business the heritage sector can benefit from accreditation schemes. The work necessary to achieve accreditation will lend to raise standards. It is also important the heritage institutes view statements of strategy as a way of focusing their energies and creating internal dialogue. These statements also help to arrive at a consensus on matching capabilities in technology and human resources with the demands on their mandate. The whole game in this respect is to achieve the matching between internal capability and the mandate on which they must deliver. There is no incompatibility between the energy and enthusiasm of the museum and modern managerial methods.

Does the Department of Finance have any observations?

Mr. John Thompson

The Secretary General and the director have, in their different ways, given a good account of the issues before the committee. I have nothing to add to what they have said.

I thank Dr. Wallace for his spirited and clear presentation to the committee. I thank Mr. Haugh and his staff for their clear responses, as always.

Is it agreed to dispose of the report? Agreed.

The witnesses withdrew.

The committee adjourned at 12.35 p.m. sine die.
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