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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 9 Oct 2008

The Arts Council Accounts 2006.

Ms Mary Cloake (Director, Arts Council) and Mr. Fiach MacConghail (Director, Abbey Theatre) called and examined.

I welcome everybody to the meeting, which is now in public session. We are considering the Arts Council accounts for 2006; the Abbey Theatre, chapter 3 of Special Report No. 10; and the National Library, chapter 4 of Special Report No. 10. The Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism is represented.

Before we open proceedings, witnesses should be aware that they do not enjoy absolute privilege. Members and witnesses' attention is drawn to the fact that as and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997 grants certain rights to persons who are identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. These rights include: the right to give evidence; to produce or send documents to the committee; to appear before the committee either in person or through a representative; to make a written and oral submission; to request the committee to direct the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents; and the right to cross-examine witnesses. For the most part, these rights may only be exercised with the consent of the committee.

Persons invited before the committee are made aware of these rights and any persons identified in the course of proceedings who are not present may need to be made aware of these rights and provided with a transcript of the relevant part of the committee's proceedings if the committee considers it appropriate in the interests of justice.

Notwithstanding this provision in the legislation, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 158 that the committee shall also refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or of a Minister, or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

Having said that I welcome Ms Mary Cloake, director of the Arts Council, and ask her to introduce her delegation.

Ms Mary Cloake

Ms Ellen Pugh is the finance director of the Arts Council and John O'Kane is arts director.

Mr. Fiach MacConghail is the director of the Abbey Theatre. I ask him to introduce his delegation.

Mr. Fiach MacConghail

I thank the Chairman for the invitation. I am accompanied by my colleague, Mr. Declan Cantwell, director of finance and administration.

We have officials from the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism.

Mr. Dara Mullaly

I am accompanied by my colleague, Ms Sharon Daly.

We also have officials from the Department of Finance.

Mr. John Thompson

I represent the Department of Finance.

I ask Mr. Buckley to introduce the Arts Council accounts 2006 and chapter 3 of Special Report No. 10 on the Abbey Theatre.

Mr. John Buckley

The latest accounts for the Arts Council relate to its 2006 activities and the 2007 accounts are currently being finalised. The 2006 accounts record that the council received €83 million from the State, and on the expenditure side, apart from meeting its administration costs, approximately €7 million was paid out to individuals, including Aosdána, and the balance of €68 million went to organisations in the form of support grants and to assist in development work.

Although the accounts do not detail the grant recipients, this information is set out in the council's annual report. In case it leads to some confusion when the grants for the Abbey Theatre are being discussed, I point out for the sake of completeness that the amounts reported in the council's annual report in respect of current and capital grants for the Abbey, while correct in the aggregate, are misclassified. The annual report shows €7.4 million for current grants but this should be €7.2 million. Correspondingly, the capital grants are out by a similar amount.

Overall, funding provided by the Arts Council is quite widely spread. Other large recipients of aid include the Wexford Opera Society, which received €1.3 million for current expenses and €850,000 for refurbishment, and Opera Ireland, which received €2 million for running expenses. The chief executive will be in a position to give any further details on expenditure of the council.

Turning to the Abbey Theatre, a restructuring took place in 2006 which led to the formation of a company limited by guarantee. The new company, Abbey Theatre Amharclann Na Mainistreach, has been provided with a three-year envelope of funding amounting to €25.7 million, which covers the period 2006-08.

In the longer term a new national theatre will be located at George's Dock at a site provided by the Dublin Docklands Authority. The procurement will be handled entirely by the NDFA and the project is scheduled for completion around 2011. Notwithstanding this planned move to new premises, the existing theatre needed considerable refurbishment and funding was provided to facilitate this. Overall, the funding has been applied to carrying out improvements to the auditorium and some associated works.

Much of what is dealt with in Special Report No. 10 relates to concerns about whether best value procurement was achieved in circumstances where there was a limited spending window for the completion of those capital works. Typically, capital works have a long lead time and by and large, this lead time is necessary so the projects can be properly appraised, planned and carried out in a way that gets optimum value for the money invested.

The late availability of additional funding during 2006 and the pressure to spend the funding within the year led to the theatre shortcutting the procurement procedures, so instead of allocating work on the basis of competitive processes, it resorted to identifying suppliers through its firm of architects for approximately €900,000 of work. Ultimately, approximately €400,000 of the work was acquired under single tenders.

Turning to what we might learn from an assistance point of view, the events outlined suggest there may be a problem at the wider systems level because of countervailing pressures which come to bear on organisations acquiring capital works. On the one hand there is a requirement to comply with procurement rules while on the other, accounting and funding rules impose spending deadlines. Organisations which are caught in this sandwich often resolve the problem by taking procurement shortcuts in order to hold on to the funding. The difficulty is that value is likely to suffer if the focus is on quick rather than effective spending.

Ms Mary Cloake

I will summarise orally the opening statement submitted in advance. I thank the committee for inviting us before it. I hope a few brief remarks about the Arts Council's work will give the background to the issues before the committee today.

The Arts Council is tasked by Government with two central jobs, expressed differently from time to time. For example, we have a strategy at the moment but the two objectives are for the public to have the widest access to the arts, across the country and in every part of society; and that the arts in Ireland are of the highest standard. This means not only that our artists be proficient but that the arts are relevant and reflect our contemporary society.

We have had some success in achieving these goals with the assistance of Government funding over the past number of years. I will deal first with the public access goal. People here will be very familiar with new and upgraded facilities which have appeared right around the country. We have Spraoi from Waterford, the National Sculpture Factory in Cork, Artspace Studios in Galway, the Lighthouse cinema, Axis in Ballymun and DanceHouse on Foley Street. Dublin has done well too.

Our specific performance indicator on this is what do these figures show, what does the public know about these projects and do the public consider these an improvement in the availability of the arts. Is there an increase in numbers attending and participating? The answer is a resounding "Yes". Things have greatly improved. In our recent study, The Public and the Arts 2006, we looked at changes over the last decade. In 1994, 73% of people said they had difficulty in attending and availing of the arts. By 2006 this figure was reduced to 17%. That means, as a result of sustained investment in the arts, the tide has turned, and 83% of the population say they do not experience difficulties in attending or participating in the arts. We think this is very important.

We know from recent research that 100,000 people saw shows in a touring programme we had. The Dublin Theatre Festival, which is on at the moment, is having a record box-office year, and people are joining in as well as attending. We published on Tuesday a new policy on choral music. There are at least 400 choral groups around the country, and 10,000 people sing in these every week. We would say that from a public access point of view our policies have been successful and our objectives have been met. I have some copies of the Raising Your Voice report, which was published on Tuesday, for members.

The second indicator — this is relevant to the issue of the Abbey — is standards. It is always difficult to measure artistic standards in finite numerical terms. We have ways of doing this in the Arts Council, but one rule of thumb for artistic standards is international recognition. We are all aware of Ireland's success globally in terms of literature. We await the outcome on Monday of yet another Booker Prize competition featuring an Irish writer, Sebastian Barry. Ireland's theatre has swept the boards with recent international successes by Druid and the Gate, and indeed the Abbey itself won the Fringe First Award at the Edinburgh Festival this year. Internationally, people say the arts in Ireland are of a very high standard. The value of this international success is proven by figures from the tourism sector, which is worth €5.1 billion to the Irish economy. Of the 400,000-odd products the Irish tourism industry has to offer, by far the largest category — 1084 — are directly related to arts events. Thus, people are coming to Ireland because of the high standard and public accessibility of the arts.

With these two core objectives in mind — public access and high standards — I want to set out the background to our grant aid for the Abbey Theatre during the period in question. The council's decision to offer funding to the Abbey Theatre for the three-year period 2006 to 2008 is relevant to this report. In 2004, members will remember that the Abbey Theatre was suffering a severe financial crisis. In response to this crisis there was a major debate in Government, in society and in the media about the need for a national theatre. I hope my colleagues from the Abbey will discuss that later. The consensus at all levels was that the people of Ireland wanted a national theatre, a strong institution of which we could be proud. Following this debate we, with the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism, looked very carefully at whether an investment in a national theatre would meet our public sector objectives for arts funding, which, as I mentioned, are public access and high quality. After careful consideration at many levels it was agreed that if properly structured, managed and resourced a national theatre would be an important cultural resource for the country. The board of the Arts Council, with the express backing of the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism, and in exchange for significant financial support, insisted that the Abbey carry out an organisational review, which recommended the steps required to place the theatre on a secure footing for the future.

On the basis of additional funds provided by the Department from Government, the council provided the Abbey with exceptional funding at the end of 2004, amounting to €2 million, in order to secure the survival of the company at that point. A further €4 million was offered at the end of 2005 to wind up the old National Theatre Society Limited, as was mentioned in the introductory report. The council's offer of December 2004, together with the offer of revenue funding in 2005, was explicitly conditional on the implementation of the recommendations of an organisational review and a comprehensive change process. The board of the Abbey agreed to these conditions and during 2005 full implementation of the recommendations followed. Additionally, in 2005 the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism commissioned KPMG to undertake a detailed audit of the Abbey's financial control systems and to make specific recommendations in this regard.

The impact of these changes has been highly visible and, over the course of the period 2006 to 2008, the theatre has clearly benefited from the use of responsive and timely systems of financial control. In October 2005, the organisation submitted a three-year business plan to the Arts Council. Following long and detailed consideration the council decided to offer three-year funding to the value of €25.7 million in revenue. This was broken down as follows: 2006, year 1, €7.2 million; 2007, year 2, €8.5 million; 2008, year 3, €10 million. Our view, backed by the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism, was that having started this journey to reform the organisation it was a priority to stabilise it by supporting this initial three-year plan to the best of its ability. The funding was also an opportunity to radically change, reform, improve and modernise the Abbey, which was a very out-of-date organisation, and real momentum was built up around this change. For the first time in many years we felt there was an opportunity to sort things out in Abbey Street. Second, there was a strong conviction among everybody that the vital and vibrant role the Abbey could play should be an important aspect of the life of the nation.

When we were finalising this three-year plan, we were unable to respond to the request for capital funding. Despite the fact that the Abbey asked us for €2.29 million in capital funding for the three years 2006, 2007 and 2008 to go alongside the revenue current funding, we were not in a position to do this initially. After a mid-term budget review in the middle of 2006, we were able to find, from savings, €484,000 from our own expenditure to be used to upgrade the front-of-house areas and external signage. This, we felt, was crucial. I do not know whether anyone remembers this, but at the time there was a vox pop on the “Six-One” news, in which the newscaster was outside the Abbey Theatre with a microphone asking people if they knew where the Abbey was. Nobody knew where it was, and they were standing in Abbey Street. We felt that if public access is an important goal for the Arts Council, this work — to make sure the foyer was people-friendly, so that people did not feel intimated when going in, and to make sure they knew where it was — was vital. That is why we found this funding from our internal budgets.

Subsequently, on being notified of a Supplementary Estimate from the Department, we found we were in a position to offer €600,000 to be used for essential maintenance and upgrading of equipment to ensure compliance with health and safety regulations. We were very concerned about health and safety not only in the public areas but also for the people rigging, those using the lights, the actors and so on, who were at risk. We were very concerned, for example, about the possibility of a lamp falling on somebody during a show. We thus decided to prioritise the €600,000 grant for essential maintenance and health and safety once we had the extra funds.

While most of this funding was drawn down on the basis of invoices received, the Abbey Theatre told us in December of 2006 that it would not be able to get everything finished before the end of the year. The reason was that while contracts were agreed and the work was ongoing, it would not be completed before the end of the year. Members may remember that it was the very height of the building boom and it was impossible to get builders to do anything, and when one did get them it was hard to get them to focus on the job in hand. They could not complete it before the end of the year. We were fully confident that the Abbey would use the money for the purposes outlined, and this was borne out subsequently when the theatre drew down the money from us in February 2007 for the completion of improvements to the interior of the theatre.

Given the advanced state of the works, and recognising that the Abbey had entered a new era of financial management, we required the Abbey to establish an escrow account in which the Arts Council subsequently placed €286,000, the outstanding value of the work of the project. The reason we did this was that the works were very nearly complete; of €1.084 million, only €286,000 remained to be drawn down. However, we did not have the formal evidence of certification and invoicing. Thus, we felt that the most prudent thing to do was to put the money in the escrow account and release it only when the invoices were certified. The subsequent decision by the Comptroller and Auditor General to accrue the €286,000 supports our assessment that the expenditure related to 2006 and that drawdown conditions were the real issue. We are very satisfied that the money was used exclusively for the purposes agreed and that payments were not made on any invoices without certification.

We understood that the Abbey Theatre was going through a procurement process. It is our policy that all bodies should follow public procurement guidelines and we now set this down explicitly. Where we make capital grants we have new grant conditions and these can be shown to the members. I can give an undertaking that every capital grant offered by the Arts Council in the future will have these strict public procurement conditions outlined, specifically and explicitly. We take on board the comments made in the report and if this end of year issue happens again we will accrue the amount rather than use a net escrow account.

On the liaison between the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism and the Arts Council, we had a very close informal liaison during that period but have now established a new liaison group consisting of officials from the Department and the Arts Council. It meets six times a year and the Abbey Theatre is a recurring item on its agenda. We can ensure there is a good flow of information regarding the management of that organisation's funds. I am satisfied these procedures will be followed in the future. It is hoped that, with investment from Government, oversight by the Arts Council and supportive communication with the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism, the Abbey Theatre's future will be rosy. It is a welcome situation to be in, from the perspective of the Arts Council. Looking back at where we have come from, we are happy to be here and we can be confident that situations such as end of year accounting or public procurement will not arise again.

Can the committee publish the statement from the Arts Council?

Ms Mary Cloake

Yes.

Mr. MacConghail will not make an opening statement so I open the floor to members.

I will resist beating my local drum on behalf of the West Cork Arts Centre and will focus on the national issues. There are some general issues I wish to address before we return to the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General on the Abbey Theatre. In his opening statement the Comptroller and Auditor General mentioned a discrepancy of €200,000 in the accounts. This may be an administrative issue but perhaps we might sort this question out before we address others.

Ms Mary Cloake

We have an erratum slip that we can circulate to members. Ms Pugh will talk about the details.

Ms Ellen Pugh

As the Comptroller and Auditor General stated, the figures in the financial statements are correct. Due to a publishing error the listing that appears in the annual report in respect of revenue and capital grant breakdown is recorded incorrectly. If one adds the totals together they are correct but the split between revenue and capital is listed incorrectly. The figures in the financial statements in the 2006 accounts are correct.

That covers that issue. How does the Arts Council satisfy itself that a recipient body is not receiving funding for the same purpose from another source? That matter was touched upon in the special report. Are there some procedures to cover it?

Ms Mary Cloake

There are strict guidelines governing that and I ask Mr. John O'Kane to respond. He is the arts director and has been working on the funding programmes in the Arts Council over the past four years.

Mr. John O’Kane

When organisations apply for funding we structure the application process so that they must make explicit to what purpose the funding will be used and must make clear the relationship between that and funding from other sources. In the case of the Abbey Theatre, we went to some lengths to ensure that in capital funding, as discussed by Ms Cloake, our funding did not duplicate that provided by the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism.

Another general issue is that the Arts Council makes it a condition of capital funding that procurement is in accordance with EU and Department of Finance procurement rules. There appears to have been a gap in procedure at one stage. Has that gap been fully closed?

Ms Mary Cloake

It has. I have the new guidelines on capital. We have inserted, at No. 4, an express condition that states the organisation must abide by provisions of the public procurement guidelines competitive process, including the provision to apply a number of price quotations for the work in question to ensure value for money in public expenditure. Every recipient of capital grants from the Arts Council must now sign these conditions before payment is made.

The overall approach of the Arts Council seems to indicate that a good job is being done there and it is important to put that on the record.

With regard to the Abbey Theatre, there appears to have been several procedural shortcuts and I must deal with those. I shall cut straight to the chase, however, in respect of the capital work done. I address this question to all involved, whether they are in the Abbey Theatre, the Arts Council or the Departments. Is everybody satisfied that the outcome was a job well done and that good value was had for the money spent? That is my main concern. I shall come later to the procedural shortcuts that were taken at the end of the year, possibly under pressures of time.

Ms Mary Cloake

From our point of view we believe it was excellent value for money. One of the ways we measure value for money in respect of grants to performing companies is to judge how many people come to see them and whether those people have a good experience as a result of their visit. I would like the personnel from the Abbey Theatre to speak about their box office returns. The work done has been a considerable success, however, in increasing significantly the numbers that visit that theatre.

Mr. Fiach MacConghail

Although there have been some procedural short falls, value for money, and the impact the work has had on the audience, the employee, the actor and the writer coming to the Abbey Theatre, have been considerable. When we visited this committee in November 2005 the building was in a state of gross disrepair. There was no sign outside that inside was an active and vibrant theatre. The health and safety aspects of the interior of the building and the customer service we offered to citizens who attended our productions were under-resourced and the auditorium was shabby. When we received the funding we implemented a progressive and good fit-out of the theatre. This not only expresses value for money but ensured that we could treat with dignity and respect our customers, the citizens who come in droves to the Abbey Theatre. In 2007 120,000 people attended our productions. It also meant that our employees worked in a safe environment.

There is a point on which the public would wish to have reassurance concerning the proposed major move to the docklands area. Can Mr. MacConghail assure the committee that the capital expenditure incurred was necessary despite this major move being on the way?

Mr. Fiach MacConghail

The Deputy will know it is public knowledge that it is the Government's decision that the Abbey Theatre will move, subject to an international design competition and a successful winner of that. The move will happen once that process is in place. In the meantime we have a responsibility to our artists, actors, employees and audiences to ensure that we work in a safe environment. Investment will always be required for the building and all the money we spend, and which has so far been spent, has been to appropriate and relevant ends, representing good value. While we are in this gap of procuring a new building for our national theatre, we must not ignore our current audience who come in increasing numbers to see us. We have begun responding to new quality of life issues in that all our productions now begin at 7.30 p.m. This means that audiences can come in, have a cup of tea or coffee and have a comfortable time in our theatre. That is also paramount for value for money when people buy tickets to our productions.

The main issue the committee would like reassurance on is the background to the procedural shortcuts that appear to have been taken. On first reading of the reports, these grants appear to have been confirmed at a late stage in 2006, and were required to be spent before the end of the year. The comptroller mentions that the shortcuts taken seem to indicate that at one stage there was only a single tender and that the full procurement procedures were not followed. Mr. MacConghail might explain what happened, why it happened and give reassurance that there was nothing untoward, other than trying to deal with the short time factor available.

Mr. Fiach MacConghail

One of the advantages of running a national theatre is twofold. We know how we perform by how much our audiences come to see our work. It is almost like getting votes in an election. We are also answerable to this committee and the Comptroller and Auditor General every year. We are very aware of our responsibility to the taxpayer. Our funding is mediated and assessed through the Arts Council.

There was no guarantee in 2005 that we would receive any capital funding over the succeeding three years. We submitted a detailed capital works programme to the Arts Council, and we informed the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism of that programme. When money became available with the condition we would spend it by the end of the year, we took a responsible approach and decided the money should be spent in the appropriate areas we felt deserved that attention. It is about health and safety, the audience and our employees. We had already retained the services of our architect who had designed the original portico opened in 1991. We had a procedure by which we knew we would get value for money.

Procedurally, there was a hiatus where there was extreme difficulty in getting even three quotes from some of our suppliers, partly because there was a spike in the construction industry, and getting people interested in mundane jobs like painting and decorating was very difficult. In Special Report No. 10, we acknowledged we did not stick with the public procurement procedural guidelines. We have subsequently put that in place through our audit committee and employee scheme. It does not mean we did not get value for money for the work we did; we did get value for money.

The auditorium seating was already in place; it was not subject to a deadline. We are a specialised theatre company. Three contractors submitted tenders. We could not find five contractors, we felt it was an exceptional circumstance and we were pleased that the successful contractor was the appropriate one. The media and the audience have proved what we have done is of exceptional quality and value for money.

The theatre relied a great deal on the architect in the case.

Mr. Fiach MacConghail

Yes, we did.

Who was the architect?

Mr. Fiach MacConghail

The architect for the front and back of house decorating was McCullough Mulvin, an award-winning company. They designed the original portico of the Abbey Theatre. The architect for the auditorium seating was John Keoghegan who has huge experience in the specialised area of seating, and how to configure it to have a relationship with the stage. We worked with a separate adviser from France, Jean-Guy Lecat who also has that experience.

While we are probing the issue, there is one other point that arose from the Comptroller's report. He mentioned that regarding the auditorium seating, three quotations were received, the highest one was accepted. Was there a particular reason for that?

Mr. Fiach MacConghail

Obviously, in terms of procurement, the lowest is not necessarily the best. We did a field trip to all the companies involved and we felt this one was the best. We had to do this in 12 days. We had a responsibility to our citizens to continue to keep the Abbey Theatre open, produce plays and minimise disruption to our other income from box office and ticket sales. One of the key conditions we wanted was to complete this in 12 days, to shut down over Easter and make a radical change. It has since been proven that the contractor who won that award was in the best position to achieve that over 12 working days.

I understand the pressures of trying to operate within a tight time frame. Our job is to ensure the best value for money for the taxpayer is obtained. Have the theatre and the Arts Council learned anything from this? New procurement rules have been issued by the Arts Council. Have the Abbey Theatre put in place processes and procedures that, as far as possible, enable them to fully comply with regulations in the future?

Mr. Fiach MacConghail

We have. It is difficult for us to reject any offers of financing. We have implemented a set of guidelines on how to publicly procure contracts over a particular price and we circulated that to all our employees more than a year ago. That decision was also passed by our own board and the audit committee. We have learned and become stricter in our procurement policy. We are a specialised industry with specialised needs. Where it is possible we have gone for five quotes, which is the stipulation. We hope to continue with that.

The last point is that there is a lesson for us all to examine the kind of difficulties that arise where capital grants are sanctioned late in the calendar year, with a tight time frame and a possibility that the grant may be lost if it is not spent before the end of the year. That has broader implications as an issue for the committee and others to look at.

Mr. Fiach MacConghail

The ultimate winner is the audience. Every kind of work the Arts Council and the Abbey Theatre do benefits the end users, which are our citizens.

Arising from Deputy Jim O'Keeffe's questions, under the codes of practice for governance of State bodies, the Chairman of the Abbey Theatre should have reported to the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism. Was there a report submitted for 2006, and were the breaches of procedures identified in that report to the Department?

We are discussing the pressure to spend before the end of the year. Is this cropping up more and more in Departments?

Mr. Dara Mullaly

The Abbey Theatre does not, as a commercial company, report to us on its corporate governance. In our dealings with it, we expect it to comply with corporate governance requirements.

The Abbey reports to the Arts Council. The Arts Council reports to the Department.

Mr. Dara Mullaly

Yes.

Were the breaches identified to the Department through the Arts Council?

Ms Mary Cloake

At the end of the year, the Abbey reports fully on its activities. I invite Mr. John O'Kane, the liaison person with the Abbey Theatre, to speak about it.

Mr. John O’Kane

Communication with the Abbey is conducted via regular monitoring meetings so that we are fully appraised of what is going on with the Abbey. There is no formal annual reporting from the chair.

There should be, under the code of practice for the governance of State bodies.

Ms Mary Cloake

There is a formal meeting with the Arts Council at which the chair reports verbally to the Arts Council. My understanding was that the Abbey, in its new format, was not covered by the code of practice for State bodies. The chair was in two months ago and gave a full report on 2007 but we do not have a formal written report from the Abbey.

That is the interpretation of the Arts Council. Is it the interpretation of the Department of Finance?

Mr. John Thompson

The Chairman asked in particular about the end of year pressure. This has been around for a long time. Two developments in recent years have made that less of a problem than it was. First, we now have an arrangement of capital carryover, whereby 10% of a Department's capital Vote can be carried over into the next year, so that the "use it or lose it" situation is abated. Second, we have moved more to long-term planning, in view of capital, through the successive national development plans which have expanded in scope over time. There is less of the end-of-year pressure to spend than there would have been some years ago.

On the other question, are we all happy that the Abbey is not subject to the codes of practice?

Mr. Fiach MacConghail

The Abbey Theatre is subject to the code of practice for governance of State bodies. The chairman of the Abbey Theatre reports to the Minister for Arts, Sports and Tourism. He submitted a report in 2006 but did not include the breach of the public procurement guidelines.

So there was a report to the Department?

Mr. Dara Mullaly

The annual report was submitted.

Mr. Fiach MacConghail

It is a formal communication between the chairman of the Arts Council and the Minister of the day. A report was submitted in 2006.

I wish to ask one question relating to the partnership of arts officers with local authorities. It is fair to say they do very good work. Will Ms Cloake expand on the nature of the partnership? Are the contracts of arts officers open ended or fixed term? Is there co-funding of the arts budget from the Arts Council in conjunction with the local authorities? The budgets under which they operate are minuscule in comparison with the overall budget of a local authority. For example, the local authority budget in Limerick is €130 million. Does the Arts Council liaise with the managers of local authorities to increase the funding available to the local arts officers?

Ms Mary Cloake

The local arts officer network has been one of the real success stories of the last ten years. For the first time we have a complete complement in that every local authority area has an arts officer. It is indicative of how popular the arts have become at local level. We have a long-standing partnership arrangement where we contribute to elements of the cost. In some cases, where a county is badly provided for in terms of a rate base, we provide funding for the salary but, increasingly, the local authorities are paying all of the salary themselves, which is very good. We look at the programme offered at local level and we contribute to certain elements of it. Limerick city and county are among the best for supporting individual artists and communities in the arts. Some sterling and exemplary work is going on in the city and county. That is evidence that when there is a long established programme the standard of work can be very high.

On the question of spending from local authorities, it is not what we would want but it has increased three-fold during the past ten years, from approximately €5 million to €15 million. In regard to our original policy on venues, Deputy O'Keeffe mentioned west Cork arts centre. We started off being the organisation that would fund the arts centres around the country and would provide 80% to 90% of their funding, with the local authority providing 10% or 20%. In the 1980s and 1990s we had a policy of matching local authorities 50-50 on contributing to the running costs of arts centres. What has happened now is that the local authorities are way ahead of the Arts Council in their contributions to the arts centre networks. We consider that to be a real success. Yet, one of the frustrating aspects is that the potential for the work of arts officers is so vast that they could usefully spend twice what they are getting. I suspect that is a matter of time.

What is the position with the security of tenure of their contracts given that there is only one arts officer in each local authority who does sterling work? There are other disciplines in local authorities where there are probably excesses and there will probably be cutbacks across the board, in terms of resources. I would not like to see the arts officers come in under the umbrella of these cuts. Are the contracts open ended or fixed term?

Ms Mary Cloake

It is different from county to county. We recommend strongly that the arts officer is a permanent member of the local authority staff and, in many instances, that is now the case.

I heard Mr. MacConghail recently on an arts programme with directors from the other three national theatres who made a very good case for the performance of the Abbey in recent years, particularly in bringing theatre to the whole nation and also in involving all the other theatre groups. I commend him on that. What happened to the special account, the escrow account? Why was the special money put into that account for the refurbishment?

Ms Mary Cloake

I will invite our finance director, Ms Ellen Pugh, to explain what happened and to outline the status of the account.

Ms Ellen Pugh

We put it into the escrow account because the conditions of the grant were not fully met. In order to draw down payments for capital grants, organisations have to submit the original invoices plus a certification from their accountants to say that the invoice was paid. In this case, while we knew that the work was ongoing, that the Abbey was doing the work, we did not have the certification from the accountants so we did not accrue it in the account but put it in our accounts, an escrow account, because we thought this was the most prudent place to put it and the money could be drawn down subsequently. In January we received invoices from the Abbey. We put €286,000 into the escrow account. In January we received invoices for €225,000 and we subsequently accrued that amount in the accounts in conjunction with the Comptroller and Auditor General. The balance was over €60,000. In June 2005 we received invoices from the Abbey for €51,000 and we released money from the account to that amount. There was a balance of just over €8,000 and the Arts Council got a refund of the balance later in 2007.

So this account is closed.

Ms Ellen Pugh

Yes. In the 2007 report, the Comptroller and Auditor General was concerned about the possibility of any double spending. Did double spending occur?

Ms Mary Cloake

No. There was extensive liaison on an informal basis between the Arts Council and the Departments of Art, Sport and Tourism. The Arts Council would not be a major capital funder. We did as I said earlier. We were very concerned about the public interface of the Abbey and also health and safety so we did what we could but the major work such as seats would be a matter for the Department. That was under constant discussion and negotiation throughout the period in question.

Is the Comptroller and Auditor General convinced, therefore, that there was not any form of double spending in this instance?

Mr. John Buckley

Yes, we were fairly satisfied. One of the points we would make is that there would be much more coherence to the system if all capital funding was coming from the same source, either the Department or the Arts Council. In that way a single agency would be monitoring it. One of the lessons that might be learned from it is that there would be value in consolidating the funding for capital that is going to an agency like the Abbey so that people on both sides of the transactions would be aware fully of the entire picture.

I will put a final question to the director. Regarding the big move, everybody is delighted that there are plans for the new theatre. I am not sure what type of international competition was run 30 or 40 years ago but it appeared to be something like an office building in the middle of the city or a fortress of "luvvies" against the surrounding world. I am delighted to hear there will be an international competition. What is the position now in terms of the big move? Will that be a PPP project? It is something this committee will have a major interest in tracking up to the days when hopefully the people involved will be doing their work in an appropriate building on the banks of the Liffey.

Mr. Fiach MacConghail

I thank the Deputy for his kind words earlier. While the building we have is very austere, I would contend it is not a fortress of "luvvies" but a fortress of citizens. What is happening on our stages and continually since we were founded is a major debate about what is going on in our society, both nationally and internationally, and long may that continue.

We welcome the Government decision to relocate the Abbey Theatre to the docklands. It was agreed also that this would be procured through a PPP. I will let my colleagues in the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism answer the PPP element of it but in terms of what is happening at the moment, we are finalising the accommodation brief, in other words, what the building will entail in terms of our theatres, the rehearsal space and so on.

At the same time as finalising that accommodation brief we are also working as a project team where the Abbey Theatre is a part of that team along with the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism, the Office of Public Works, the National Development Finance Agency and all our various technical advisers. We are now trying to secure and complete the competition regulations which will be run by the Royal Institute of Architects of Ireland. When those two processes are complete, the international design competition will be announced. In terms of how long that will take, the end result and when we will move into our new building, I will defer to the Department on that.

In case the representatives think some members have lost interest in the proceedings, there is a vote in an adjoining committee. That is where some of the members have disappeared to.

I have a question for the Department of Finance representative. Is there international experience in regard to the provision of theatres through PPPs? Has the Department studied any case histories?

Mr. John Thompson

Quite honestly, I do not know. The technical aspects of a PPP are handled by the National Development Finance Agency which has built up specialised expertise in this area. I assume that will include looking at examples from around the world where other people have done this sort of project from which they would learn.

Could somebody provide us with the information?

Mr. John Thompson

We can certainly check that out for the Chairman.

On a related point, will we end up having to pay a levy for seats in the various theatres when they come on stream? In other words, will it turn out to be another M50 fiasco?

Mr. John Thompson

I do not think I can comment on that.

Having listened to the proceedings, does Mr. Buckley have any comments to make?

Mr. John Buckley

It is acknowledged that there were rules that were not observed in this case and that has implications for value for money as well as probity in the sense that people have an entitlement to expect that they will get a chance to bid for contracts such as this. Equally, the non-compliance with rules, especially when they breach the EU procurement thresholds, could expose organisations to claims from potential tenderers.

The Department of Finance mentioned there has been a general improvement with the advent of capital envelopes and so on. That has eliminated the pressures at year end, the splurge and so on, but there is still considerable residual pressure, as this particular report indicates. What we may have to reflect on long term is the effect of procurement funding rules and accounting rules and whether they should be aligned better or more goal congruent.

The obvious point is that procurement takes time. To comply with procurement rules time is needed whereas pressure to spend within a defined window creates a countervailing pressure that cannot be readily resolved. In business, holding money to leverage the delivery of a product to somebody's satisfaction would be the norm whereas the pressure here, under the Government accounting and funding rules, tends to be to force the person who should have the leverage to forfeit it and spend the money.

On the other side, I would make the point that accounting rules should be neutral. They should not influence what people are doing. We may have to reflect on that too when we consider this and a number of other reports on procurement which the committee is looking at.

One way of resolving it is for the funding agency like the Arts Council to accrue the funds in its accounts and hold them until the following year rather than resorting to escrow accounts and so on. An alternative way is to create a mini-capital envelope situation, when we have semi-State bodies and companies like the Abbey, and allow the money to move to the capital accounts of the recipient companies on condition that it is spent within six months. It allows an appropriate window for them to carry out all the administrative responsibilities they have to do to comply with the procurement rules.

The general point is that when we have these countervailing rules, something has to give. It has been resolved up to now by people giving precedence to the accounting rules on the simple basis that they need to get control of the resources and hold the money, and they would feel foolish if they gave up the money. On the other hand, there are many legal responsibilities attached to procurement and if it is to be resolved it is necessary to resolve it in favour of compliance with the procurement rules, which are somewhat driven by Europe and exposure to suit and claims from other people if they are not honoured.

Some reflection is needed on the way these matters would be balanced, and it may be opportune to do it in the context of a review of public financial procedures which is going on currently in the Department of Finance. It may give an opportunity to reflect on these matters and to consider whether certain archaic rules can be reworked and reformulated so as to serve us better in the future.

Mr. Buckley mentioned accrual accounting. Are there any proposals to implement accrual accounting for departmental Votes? I believe that was flagged some years ago but why has it not happened?

Mr. John Thompson

My understanding is there is no plan as such. The issue is under consideration from time to time. Some aspects of accrual accounting have been brought into accounts in that there are statements of accruals in prepayments, asset registers and so on but a full move to accrual accounting does not seem to be in prospect. I am aware it has been under consideration from time to time but there does not seem to be any move to go down that route at the moment.

Why not?

Mr. John Thompson

There are advantages and disadvantages in any system of accounting. In the commercial world there are accrual accounts but one also keeps a close eye on cash accounts. I do not know if the Comptroller and Auditor General will agree that, in the context of a control function, having the focus on cash is probably more appropriate, given that, in terms of accrual accounting, questions of opinion and value judgments come into play which may not be entirely appropriate or may be difficult to get right. Accrual accounting is not a panacea; it has its advantages but it also has its disadvantages.

We were wrapping up the discussion, but Deputy O'Brien indicated he would like to contribute.

I had to briefly leave the meeting, as a vote had been called at another committee. I apologise if the points I wish to raise have been covered.

On the issue of procurement, there is a trend among most State agencies which have appeared before the committee, as I am sure the Comptroller and Auditor General will testify, of regular breaches of procurement rules, from which we cannot hide. We must examine some financial system to address this.

I wish to put a question to the officials from the Department of Finance. It has been mentioned that the Department permits a 10% capital carry-over to the following year. Is that correct?

Mr. John Thompson

Yes, a carry-over of up to 10% is permitted. This assumes there is an underspend in year one and the money is carried over into year two.

Is that deemed sufficient? From Mr. Thompson's experience, in the context of agencies spending purely in order to draw down funds in the accounts for one year, is this an issue the Department will wish to address?

Mr. John Thompson

The carryover provision was intended to make sure there would be much less pressure for this to happen.

I have two brief questions for Mr. MacConghail. He said he was satisfied he had received value for money for the work done. How does he know this, given that procurement rules were not followed? He sought advice from his architect. A substantial amount to the tune of €900,000 was spent. How can he say he was satisfied that the taxpayer had received value for money?

Mr. Fiach MacConghail

If we break down the costs involved and consider the seating scenario, a significant cost, we invited three companies to tender for the work which is specialised. We are talking about theatre seating, a bespoke requirement. The procurement guidelines indicate we should have obtained five tenders. We obtained three and proceeded with one, which we considered was appropriate. Value for money was obtained in that respect. As regards the other three aspects, I made a valid judgment on the basis that we had a long-standing and good relationship with the architect who knew our building well and had interfaced regularly with the construction industry at the time. The architect contacted three contractors by telephone and one response was obtained and accepted. I consider fair value was obtained, but we did not adhere to the procurement guidelines.

Mr. MacConghail would admit that was far from ideal.

Mr. Fiach MacConghail

Yes, I would.

The Arts Council would share much of the blame in that it did not make it clear in respect of the grants it would give that procurement guidelines would have to be followed. Will the witnesses from the Arts Council confirm that there were no breaches of public procurement guidelines in 2007 in respect of any grants allocated by it?

Mr. Fiach MacConghail

As regards the Abbey Theatre, since 2006 we have implemented the procurement guidelines which we circulate to all our employees and subcontractors. I can verify——

Is Mr. MacConghail satisfied they are being followed?

Mr. Fiach MacConghail

Yes.

Is the Arts Council satisfied such guidelines are being followed?

Ms Mary Cloake

Yes, we did not have any capital grants in 2007. Any capital grants from 2008 onwards will be subject to the new conditions.

The committee will note the Arts Council's accounts for 2006 and dispose of chapter 3 of special report No. 10 of the Comptroller and Auditor General on the Abbey Theatre. Is that agreed? Agreed. I thank the witnesses for attending.

The witnesses withdrew.

Sitting suspended at 11.55 a.m. and resumed at noon.
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