Skip to main content
Normal View

COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 26 Mar 2009

Chapter 6.2 — Travel Expenses.

Mr. Seán Aylward (Secretary General, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform) called and examined.

We are examining the 2007 annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts, Vote 19 — Office of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Vote 21 — prisons; chapter 6.1 — procurement in the Irish Prison Service, and chapter 6.2 — travel expenses.

Witnesses must be made aware that they do not enjoy absolute privilege and should be apprised as follows. Attention is drawn to the fact that as and from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997 grants certain rights to persons identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. These rights include the right to give evidence; the right to produce or send documents to the committee; the right to appear before the committee, either in person or through a representative; the right to make a written and oral submission; the right to request the committee to direct the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents; and the right to cross-examine witnesses. For the most part, these rights may be exercised only with the consent of the committee. Persons invited before the committee are made aware of these rights and any persons identified in the course of proceedings who are not present may need to be made aware of them and provided with a transcript of the relevant part of the committee's proceedings, if the committee considers it appropriate in the interests of justice.

Notwithstanding this provision in the legislation, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. They are also reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 158 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or of a Minister, or the merits of the objectives of such policy or policies.

I welcome Mr. Seán Aylward, Secretary General of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, and call on him to introduce his officials.

Mr. Seán Aylward

I am accompanied by the following: Mr. Brian Purcell, director general of the Irish Prison Service; Mr. Noel Waters, assistant secretary at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Mr. Seamus Clifford, principal officer, financial shared services; Ms Barbara Heslin, director of finance, the Irish Prison Service; and Mr. John Conlan, accountant, the Irish Prison Service. We are here with our colleagues from the Department of Finance who might introduce themselves.

Ms Stephanie O’Donnell

I am the principal officer who deals with the Vote for the Department of Finance. Mr. Cormac Carey is the assistant principal officer. Mr. Billy Noone works on the procurement side. Mr. David Denny works on the administrative budget side, while Mr. Nicholas Meehan deals with travel and subsistence.

The officials are all welcome. I invite Mr. Buckley to introduce Votes 19 and 21 and chapters 6.1 and 6.2. The full text of chapter 6 can be found in the annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General or on the website of the Comptroller and Auditor General at www.audgen.gov.ie.

Mr. John Buckley

The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform has an overall co-ordinating role for the entire justice system, including policing, the prisons, the courts and property registration. The overall justice programme cost approximately €2.7 billion in 2007. While there are separate Votes for most of these activities, the Department's Vote with which we are dealing records payments on the core activities it directly administers and on which it paid out €442 million net in 2007. When one excludes the cost of administration, which came to €59 million, its principal direct expenditure was applied on the following: €158 million on dealing with asylum cases; €70 million on legal aid — of which €46 million was for criminal representation and the balance of €24 million was for civil legal aid and advice; €48 million on probation services, which the Department took over from the Prison Service with effect from mid-2006; €26 million on youth justice initiatives; and €28 million on tribunals and commissions.

Turning to the Prison Service, its headquarters was moved to Longford in mid-2007. The Prison Service accommodated an average of 3,310 prisoners per day in 2007. Excluding the Curragh and Spike Island which are no longer active, the Prison Service administers 14 prisons or places of detention. Its net voted cost was €372 million in the year. The bulk of this expenditure goes on remuneration of prison officers — €248 million in 2007. The prison capital programme cost €94 million in 2007 and was mainly spent on work at Castlerea costing €23 million and Portlaoise costing €19.4 million.

Turning to the annual report of 2007, there were two matters on which we reported. The first concerned the procurement arrangements within the Prison Service. Up to 2003, the Government contracts committee reviewed the justification for departure from competitive tendering by Departments. In that year the function was delegated to the Departments themselves. This coincided with the strengthening of governance arrangements in Departments including internal audit which would allow for these matters to be policed internally. An additional safeguard was that Departments were required to make returns that disclose the extent of procurement which was made without competitive tendering. In fact, no internal audit checks were carried out in the Prison Service in 2006 on procurement. It is apparent from the scale and content of the return in the subsequent year that the reporting of departures from competitive tendering in 2006 was not complete.

In 2007 there was considerable recourse to non-competitive procurement. The Prison Service reported that there were 60 such instances with a contract value of €18.6 million in that year and our audit work noted that some others, admittedly a very small number, had not been captured in its reporting. Most of these had been justified on the basis that the purchases were of proprietary products or that there was a security dimension. A total of 21 of the 60 involved rolling over contracts or retaining an existing supplier.

From the audit point of view our net concern in this matter is that any departures from the principles of openness, transparency and competition by Departments be justified through the rigorous application of the new rules which had been delegated by the Department of Finance. There is always a risk that any failure to operate the internal verification systems could ultimately lead to substantive failures in procurement. Clearly, there were reasons for what happened, including the difficulty in maintaining standard operating practices while at the same time dealing with decentralisation and a major industrial relations dispute and maintaining the primary services of the organisation.

The Accounting Officer has taken remedial action, principally by centralising procurement, and has assured us that a central procurement unit introduced in 2007 will bring more standardisation to the process. The central unit will have the task of ensuring that approval in advance applies in instances where procurement without competition is contemplated. It will also work on having computerised management information to allow it to plan the timing of tendering through identifying when an existing contract is scheduled to expire and also to ensure that tendering takes place in large volume cases or in instances where procurement has not been undertaken for a considerable time. The Accounting Officer will be in a position to update the committee on progress in achieving this reorganisation.

The other item dealt with was chapter 6.2, which highlighted a case where payments were made over a number of years to an employee in respect of travel expenses to and from work. In general, travel and subsistence payments to facilitate transfer to a temporary headquarters — this is what happened in this case — can be paid for up to six months. Thereafter these arrangements should cease unless they have the approval of the Department of Finance. The arrangements continued for a number of years without Department of Finance sanction and cumulatively the cost was just short of €100,000 with approximately €22,000 of this being paid in 2007.

In general, payments of travel expenses to and from work are taxable as benefits-in-kind with the tax liability since 2004 resting with the employer. However, a definitive view on the taxability or otherwise of the payments will only be taken when the Revenue Commissioners review all the facts related to the contract of employment of the officer in question. A subsequent trawl found four other cases where there may also be benefit-in-kind issues as a result of payments of travel and subsistence for a period greater than six months. The Accounting Officer has agreed that the payments were not in accordance with the general principles applying to travel expenses and has signalled that any tax liabilities that may arise will be regularised with the Revenue Commissioners in due course.

Does Mr. Aylward wish to make his opening statement?

Mr. Seán Aylward

First, I will give an overview on the development of risk assessment and management of risk in the Department. In addition, I will outline the role and structure of the internal audit process in the Department and Irish Prison Service.

The risk management process was formally rolled out in the Department in 2006 and is based on principles set out in the Department's risk management policy. All managers have been trained in the process. Each division has prepared its own risk register. In keeping with the policy, these registers are updated to reflect the objectives in our business plans. The process is under regular review and the 2009 review process is about to commence. Following each review, a report is prepared for the management advisory committee, MAC. The main conclusion of our 2008 review was that the principles as set out in the Department's policy are being correctly applied and a robust risk management process is firmly in place.

The risk management process follows on naturally from the divisions' business planning process. The main risks are to the forefront of managers' minds and are being managed on an ongoing or timebound basis, as necessary. I am confident that the process has bedded down in my Department. Effective steps are being taken to manage risk across the Department and each division and agency is fully on top of its responsibilities in this important area. In December 2008, the Department conducted a risk management workshop for its agencies and associated bodies with a view to assisting these organisations in managing their risks and, in that context, the Department's contingent risks.

Finally, in order to assist the day to day function of centrally managing the process, the Department is currently developing its own risk management database. It is envisaged that, when operational, the IT database will reduce the workload currently required to manage our paper based risk management records. It is further envisaged that the database will provide speedier access to information to managers across the Department, as well as assisting in the preparation of a variety of risk management reports.

In line with good corporate governance the Department established an audit committee in January 2004. The audit committee has five members, four of which are independent of the Department and on average it meets six times per year. The members of the committee are all very experienced individuals with a broad range of senior management experience in both the public and private sectors. The internal audit unit reports to the audit committee on the delivery of the annual work programme and on matters of concern that arise throughout the year. The committee and the internal audit unit have open access to me at all times and the chairman of the audit committee keeps in regular contact with me and my senior management team to discuss issues that arise in the normal course of business. Throughout the year the committee has sought and received numerous presentations from senior managers in both the core Department and the Prison Service. The committee is proactive in seeking that management addresses potential or identified areas of weakness.

The internal audit unit is headed up by a professional accountant with five audit staff. The majority of staff has received training in auditing techniques and most of the auditors have extensive knowledge of the Department's internal operations. In recent years the Department has outsourced some aspects of the audit work, particularly in the more technical areas, and this has proven to be an effective way of delivering the audit work programme. The work programme covers an extensive number of offices and the unit prioritises the audit work based on an assessment of risk. The audit unit works closely with managers to deliver pragmatic solutions on audit issues as they arise. It also provides advice and support to managers across the Department. The audit unit has a good working relationship with the Comptroller and Auditor General's staff and both areas co-operate to minimise the duplication of work.

The role delivered by the internal audit and the various financial management units is vital in providing the Department with some assurance that our systems and procedures are adequate and effective. While there are no perfect systems in any business and issues will always arise, our firm objective is to continually review all aspects of our work to ensure the services we provide are delivered in an accountable, effective and economic manner.

Before I address the specific issues in the prisons Vote which have been raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General in his report, I should refer to the range of areas and different agencies and bodies which come under my remit as Accounting Officer for the justice Vote. In addition to encompassing the office of the Minister itself, it now also captures a range of diverse programme and service areas including in the region of 40 offices and agencies attached to the Department. In the case of many of these organisations we pay for the day to day expenditure centrally. In other cases we provide grants on a periodic basis which make up varying levels of the operating budgets of the organisations in question.

I reassure the committee that I am doing everything in my power and within the resources available to me to ensure that effective governance arrangements are in place with regard to all organisations in receipt of Exchequer funding. The audit programme of my Department, the details of which were provided to the committee in respect of the 2007 financial year, ensures that a number of these bodies are audited on a regular basis. The outcome of these audits continues to inform our approach in assessing applications for financial assistance and whether it is appropriate to continue funding existing organisations and programmes. While this is a necessary approach at any time it is particularly appropriate now in the difficult financial times in which we find ourselves.

Turning to the specific issues raised in relation to the prison Vote, I will begin by providing a brief overview of the particular environment within which the Irish Prison Service operates and the associated challenges from a procurement perspective. The Prison Service manages 14 prisons located across the State and was responsible for gross non-pay expenditure of over €146 million in 2007. The high security nature of the work dictates that, in many cases, there are only a limited number of specialist companies which can provide the necessary goods and services. In other cases, the technology employed is limited to a sole supplier, because of the need for compatibility with core systems already in place. Due to the volatility of the prison environment, it is sometimes necessary to make emergency purchases of goods or services to protect life and ensure the overall safety of staff and prisoners and the security of the prison itself.

I note that the Comptroller and Auditor General, while outlining his concerns on certain aspects of procurement within the Irish Prison Service, acknowledges that steps are being taken to rectify the deficiencies highlighted. I welcome the findings of the Comptroller and Auditor General, as these have provided the Prison Service with assistance in moving forward with its procurement strategy. I also welcome the support of the internal audit unit of the Department in our ongoing initiative to take a more proactive approach to procurement. In March 2007, in recognition that improvements and standardisation in procurement procedures were required, the Irish Prison Service established a professionally trained central procurement unit. The purpose of this unit is to modernise the procurement function within the Prison Service and introduce new policies and procedures to ensure that proper controls are in place over the procurement process.

Significant progress has already been made since the publication of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. Following consultation with internal stakeholders, the Prison Service procurement policy was issued by the Director General in September 2008. The issue of procurement and, in particular, adherence to the procurement policy, is an ongoing item on the agenda for senior management meetings. The finance directorate is engaged in an ongoing promotion and education process in respect of procurement policy and related presentations have been made to staff at all levels within the Prison Service. During 2008, a number of key staff appointments were made to the finance directorate, including a director with sole responsibility for finance and procurement. Notwithstanding the procurement challenges previously outlined, I can assure the committee that the Irish Prison Service is fully committed to the principles of fair and open procurement and the achievement of maximum value for money.

I propose to now turn to the issue of travel expenses. Let me begin by asserting that I fully accept the well established general principle that employees are responsible for whatever expenses they may incur in presenting themselves at their place of work. However, I am also conscious that the principle is not absolute and that there are well accepted exceptions such as temporary transfers where individuals are required to work far away from their normal base in the interests of the State. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report highlights concerns regarding the appropriateness of travel expense payments made to an officer of the Irish Prison Service during an initial period from August 2000 to August 2002 and then again during the period June 2005 to March 2008. It should be noted that all payments made to the officer in question were at a time when he was facilitating the needs of the Irish Prison Service.

In August 2000, it was considered that the officer in question was uniquely qualified for assignment to a particular governor post. He was assigned on a temporary basis but the duration of the assignment could not be determined exactly at that time. On the basis that his assignment was in the nature of a temporary transfer, it was agreed to pay the officer in question travel and subsistence in respect of his journeys between his normal base in Dublin and the temporary base. It was agreed that he could claim a reduced mileage on one day a week and the full rate for the other four days. The arrangement was reviewed after six months, when the number of days at full rate was reduced to three. It is the view of the Irish Prison Service, and I would concur with that view, that these arrangements were not inconsistent with the travel and subsistence circulars, in that the transfer was intended to be temporary. These payments were terminated in August 2002 when it was accepted that the assignment was now effectively permanent.

The decision to extend the officer in question's service beyond retirement age in June 2005 was sanctioned by the Department of Finance, on the basis of the need to retain his services in the extremely volatile industrial relations climate pertaining at that time. Efforts were being made to introduce a major programme of organisational change on a scale never seen within the public service previously – change that ultimately led to major savings for the Exchequer. The former special arrangements with respect to travel expenses were reinstated during the period June 2005 to March 2008 on the basis that it was effectively a new temporary assignment.

As requested by the Comptroller and Auditor General, the Prison Service contacted the Office of the Revenue Commissioners in July 2008 for their advice on any tax obligations that may arise from this case. The matter is still under consideration by the Revenue Commissioners and they will contact the Prison Service once a decision has been made. As also requested by the Comptroller and Auditor General, advice was sought from the Department of Finance as to whether the travel expense payments were in accordance with its guidelines. The Department of Finance responded to the effect that it did not consider that the payments made to the officer in question were in accordance with its travel and subsistence circulars.

I accept that our view at the time, although well intentioned, is not sustainable as being consistent with the general principles that apply to travel and subsistence. While acknowledging that a mistake has been made, it should be noted that had the officer in question retired in the normal course, it would have been necessary to re-engage him on a consultancy basis and in such circumstances he would have been entitled to charge travel and subsistence as an applicable expense.

A number of proactive measures have been taken by the Prison Service over recent months to ensure strict adherence to Department of Finance circulars regarding travel and subsistence. A travel and subsistence frequently asked questions document, emphasising the general rules and regulations, was drafted with the assistance of the Department of Finance and this was circulated to all staff. Procedures have been put in place to spot check travel and subsistence claims internally on a bi-monthly basis, to ensure the provisions of the circulars are being adhered to. Since September 2008, all proposed foreign travel by staff of the Irish Prison Service must be approved in advance by the director general.

I will conclude with two short points. The first is that we have no quarrel with the analysis from the Comptroller and Auditor General. Second, with regard to the prisons, and I was the director of the prisons until July 2004, we had what I would describe as a burning platform situation in the prisons for much of the last few years which, perhaps, bounced people into making decisions that, with hindsight and in a completely composed situation, they would not have made. We have moved to clean up our act and we are happy to speak about that in more detail in response to questions.

The statement is published and available to the media.

We are taking the two Votes and the chapter together. I have some questions on Vote 19. I note that extra remuneration of €5.7 million was paid in 2007, which was 22% of salaries and wages. Why does the extra remuneration amount to so much of salaries and wages in that figure? With regard to incidental expenses, and perhaps Mr. Aylward would clarify what that means, in 2007 they were €7.52 million, which was 98% greater than the cost incurred in 2006. What was the reason for the increase over the Estimate in 2007? It was almost 100% greater than in the previous year. What are incidental expenses?

Under subheading A6 the actual expenditure in 2007, under office premises expenses, was €2.364 million. It was €1.3 million or €1.4 million in excess of the Estimate provision and an increase of 100% on the expenditure in 2006. I understand this is for office accommodation. Was it for premises bought or rented? Where were those premises or offices that caused the expenditure to be 100% greater than the expenditure in 2006?

With regard to subhead D3, for asylum seekers' accommodation, the total expenditure in 2007 was €83 million, which was €13.2 million in excess of the Estimate provision. Is there a figure for 2008 to compare with that? It would be useful to have the figure for 2008. As well as accommodation, what other allowances or benefits are given to asylum seekers? We hear all kinds of reports, ranging from prams to motor cars. We must ignore much of what we hear but I am anxious to know what other facilities aside from accommodation are given to asylum seekers, given that we spent €83.26 million in 2007. I do not have the figure for 2008.

Will we leave it at that for the moment?

Yes. We can move on to Vote 21 afterwards.

Mr. Seán Aylward

As I have the material I will respond to the Deputy. Under incidental expenses, the vast bulk of that expenditure was legal fees. The vast bulk of those legal fees relate to judicial reviews in asylum cases. We have a large growing legal community who have been appealing every aspect of our processing of asylum cases.

Do we have to add that figure to the amount paid out for asylum seekers' accommodation to get the true figure of what they cost?

Mr. Seán Aylward

One would have to take that figure into account. It is not an administrative figure, it is legal fees.

Mr. Seán Aylward

The other question was on office premises. We had a refit there of accommodation to look after a number of new responsibilities the Department took on. We fitted out offices at Montague Court for the new national domestic violence agency, COSC — something that had been sought for a long time — and for the Youth Justice Service. This is where we took over responsibility from the Department of Education and Science for the management of children in custody. We also took responsibility for Garda youth diversion schemes and for the establishment of a new arm of the probation service to provide alternatives to custody for young people in trouble with the law. We had to rent and fit out offices for that function.

There was another office premises expense which concerned computers. Some €1.6 million was spent on an upgrade of our computer system.

Coming back to the asylum process, I was asked what those costs were running at. The figures have dipped in terms of costs. In 2002, the costs across all Departments were calculated by us as having run to €341.99 million. The figure rose to €353.17 million in 2003 and rose again in 2004 to €376.74 million. It came down in 2007 with a dip in the number of asylum seekers to €307.2 million. The expenditure we took into account in making those calculations included expenditure by the Department of Social and Family Affairs, the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the Office of Public Works, the FÁS asylum seekers unit, the Department of Health and Children, the Chief State Solicitor's office, and the Department of Education and Science. The latter is a big cost carrier. It is a sort of hidden cost — the cost of providing basic education to children of asylum seekers.

Were those offices rented?

Mr. Seán Aylward

The main accommodation costs would be for the asylum seekers themselves. We took over responsibility——

Does that come under A6 office premises expenses?

Mr. Seán Aylward

No, that is not office premises. I had moved on to the Deputy's later question about the overall aggregate cost. It is subhead D. I am sorry if I misled the Deputy.

That is all right.

Mr. Seán Aylward

I was trying to respond to his question about what it costs us to manage asylum seekers in Ireland.

Mr. Seán Aylward

The bulk of the cost concerning asylum seekers is their accommodation all around the country. We took over responsibility for that from local authorities and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government in January 2003, in the face of what was at that stage an accommodation crisis. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform took that over and developed an approach where we would seek people from the marketplace who would provide that accommodation on an all-found basis.

What would be the total cost of asylum seekers, taking all those matters into account?

Mr. Seán Aylward

By our calculation, the figure in 2007 would have been €307.2 million per annum.

Are there any figures for 2008?

Mr. Seán Aylward

We would be roughly in that ballpark, but we are still crunching figures from other Departments. It is roughly half and half, between direct costs to our Department and costs spread out across the other Departments I mentioned.

So there are more costs for asylum seekers than the actual accommodation.

Mr. Seán Aylward

Accommodation is the tip of the iceberg. It is about €80 million per annum. There are the legal costs of processing applications and establishing their veracity or otherwise, in addition to providing their children with education — they are often family groups — and health costs arise. As with any person in the jurisdiction, they are entitled to public medicine.

Are they entitled to any of the other things that one often hears mentioned?

Mr. Seán Aylward

No. Much of that is urban legend, including stories about people being given money to buy cars and stuff like that. We have checked out such stories many times, but have never found any truth to that assertion. Adult asylum seekers are given €19 per week and it has not changed since 2000. It is for minor personal requisites.

Is that included in the figure of €307 million?

Mr. Seán Aylward

Yes, that is included in the figures I have provided. The sum of €19 is pocket money for small requisites that people would have.

To help Deputy McCormack, the figure Mr. Aylward gave was €307 million in 2007. To put it in context, can he relate those figures to the number of people concerned? In addition, what are the gross or absolute legal costs involved in processing?

Mr. Seán Aylward

I have the figures. To put the matter in a historical context, in 1992 some 39 people applied for asylum in Ireland. The figure rose in 2002 to 11,634 people.

How long did it take to process an asylum application?

Let Mr. Alyward go through the numbers first.

Mr. Seán Aylward

I will complete the picture quickly. The figures dipped from 2002 onwards as we got to grips with the situation. There were 7,900 in 2003, 4,766 in 2004, 4,323 in 2005, 4,314 in 2006 and 3,985 in 2007, which is the year being scrutinised by the committee. The figures fell slightly last year to 3,866. Over the period from 1992 to today, it adds up to 80,633 applications. Of those, a total of 9,000 were granted, which is just over 10%. Some 90% of the applications were rejected either by us or by the courts system, ultimately. This has been a vast, protracted process.

Where stand the 90% that were rejected?

Mr. Seán Aylward

A great many would leave the country of their own volition.

How is that checked?

Mr. Seán Aylward

When people leave the country covertly one cannot prove a negative, that they are not here any more, but they do not show up on the radar anywhere. They do not apply for asylum and they move on. A proportion — most notably, people who had Irish-born children for much of that period — was granted leave to remain on a humanitarian basis. The entire family were granted leave to remain because their children up to the time of the referendum, more or less, had an automatic right to Irish citizenship. That right was removed.

We had a clean-up exercise where for a period of one year, we agreed to consider applications from people to remain on a humanitarian basis. We have, more or less, completed that exercise.

Over the period I just mentioned, 3,269 people were deported. The vast majority were failed asylum seekers. There was a small number of illegal migrants who had not applied for asylum.

With the aid of the International Organisation for Migration and through our own efforts, we voluntarily repatriated, with their consent, 2,924 people.

Of the 80,000 asylum seekers, does Mr. Aylward have figures for the number of illegal immigrants in Ireland?

Mr. Seán Aylward

Of its nature, illegal immigration is a covert activity. People do not register with the authorities as an illegal immigrant. They try to dodge the bullet, so any figures that exist are speculative and anecdotal. There is no question but that in the years when our economy was booming and when there was a tremendous labour shortage, people entered the State and tried to stay outside the reach of the authorities.

Does Mr. Aylward have any idea how many?

Mr. Seán Aylward

I will check our latest figures and as the meeting goes on, I will come back on that point. I want to be careful and say that any figure given on the number of illegal migrants in any state must be hugely speculative.

Mr. Seán Aylward

It has to be a guess and I do not want to hype it. It is also fair to say that when there is a perception that an economy is booming, one gets the largest number of such people. It is also interesting that quite frequently when people are detected as an illegal migrant, they then, on advice from friends, associates or legal people, apply for asylum. People can be months in the State before they apply for asylum. It is often done as a stratagem to hold off being deported.

What is the average length of time taken to deal with asylum applications?

Mr. Seán Aylward

It depends very much on where a person comes on the scale. We prioritise cases from certain countries where there is a strong pattern of illegal immigration or false claims. An interview date is usually scheduled within nine to 12 working days from the date of the initial application. Those applications are normally finalised within five to eight working days, giving an average processing time of between 17 and 20 working days from the date of application.

In the case of non-prioritised cases, the average processing time is much longer, it is 19 to 21 weeks from the date of application. I should explain that there are reasons one would not afford the same level of priority. People apply from countries which are in turmoil and to which it is very difficult to return them or where there is a substantial issue to be investigated, because there may well be veracity and a real reason behind that claim.

We try to prioritise those cases where we are pretty satisfied that the vast bulk of applicants from that part of the world are making a false claim. We try to have a deterrent effect.

Is Mr. Aylward sure the times he is giving are correct? Is it 21 weeks to deal with non-urgent applications for asylum?

Mr. Seán Aylward

Yes.

Are there cases which go on much longer than that? Perhaps they are the only types of cases which come to the attention of public representatives. People often come to our offices telling us that they are one year or two years waiting for a result of their application for asylum.

Mr. Seán Aylward

When people complain of having to wait a long time for a result, when one looks into it, one invariably finds that the legal system has been used to the hilt to delay the process or that they have not attended appointments, they have not come for interviews at the scheduled times, they have not responded to letters, they have moved addresses and that they have been dodging the bullet. People who lobby on behalf of asylum seekers keep citing time delays but they are usually contrived by the asylum seekers.

What can the Department do about that?

Mr. Seán Aylward

It can fight vigorously in the courts when spurious claims are made about its process, move to deport where people do not co-operate with the process and do not attend their appointments and, generally speaking, try to enforce the immigration laws of this State. It is a very difficult process and I do not believe the extent to which the legal system is used to frustrate the justice process is appreciated. It is a form of legal ambush.

Is free legal aid provided?

Mr. Seán Aylward

Yes. It is largely funded by the taxpayer.

Is that cost included in the cost of the 80,000?

Mr. Seán Aylward

The cost is included in the overall calculation I gave the committee a few minutes ago.

What is the estimated cost of the legal——

Mr. Seán Aylward

We spend approximately €8 million per year directly funding the legal supports for asylum seekers through the refugee legal service, which is an arm of the Legal Aid Board. We also are involved in recouping the fees to the legal teams who act as the petitioners in certain cases. Where, for example, an applicant prevails on appeal in the courts and has retained counsel, we would recoup the counsel in the event that the application is successful. The application may simply be for more time or to have a matter further judicially reviewed.

It is our experience that people are very adept at using the system. The lodging of the judicial review application tends to be at the last moment, just before time runs out or, in the case of a deportation, when a person is literally at the steps of the aeroplane. The legal system is being used to frustrate this State controlling its borders and the number of people we admit.

Does the Department have enough staff to deal with all those delaying tactics and problems?

Mr. Seán Aylward

Over 700 staff are deployed for that purpose plus the people who work in the Office of the Chief State Solicitor and the legal people retained for us. Of course, the Garda National Immigration Bureau is heavily involved as are the gardaí in that bureau who work at the ports and airports, the points of entry. There were 22 civil servants working in that area in 1998 as well as a handful of gardaí working part-time around the country. I believe there are approximately 400 gardaí working on this in the Garda National Immigration Bureau at present.

Have they been seconded from their normal duties to work on this?

Mr. Seán Aylward

They have been specially selected and trained. Most of them have detective rank. They must be specially trained for the work.

Have those 400 gardaí been replaced in the duties they carried out before?

Mr. Seán Aylward

We have had a major recruitment drive in the past few years and we have increased the number of gardaí by over 2,000 but we have had to divert many gardaí to work like this, which is unfortunate.

Mr. Aylward said approximately 10% of people are successful in getting residency. In regard to the people who apply, are rejected and subsequently go through the legal process, what percentage of those are successful?

Mr. Seán Aylward

Does the Chairman mean people granted humanitarian leave to remain?

I mean where the Department's decision is legally overturned.

Mr. Seán Aylward

Fewer than 2% succeed in overturning our process in the courts.

It is almost a 100:1 shot.

Mr. Seán Aylward

Yes, but in the meantime, years and years of residing here are accrued.

Is the expense incurred to the benefit of the people and do all these people have rights under the law? Is it to the benefit of those people or are we seeing a massive gravy train?

Mr. Seán Aylward

It is not a gravy train. Most of the people concerned, in fairness to them, are economic migrants. They are moving——

I speak not of the people because they have rights to do whatever they need to do to get their case recognised and accepted by the law, but of those representing them. Are they taking on hopeless cases and benefiting from it financially when there is no real case to be taken?

Mr. Seán Aylward

I do not want to demonise the legal profession.

Neither do I.

Mr. Seán Aylward

It is a burgeoning area of legal earnings. That is how I would describe it.

If I go into a solicitor I am told straight up whether I have a case before I put my money on the table.

Mr. Seán Aylward

This is not really about winning or losing. It is about dragging out the process. It is provided on a legal aid basis. Many of the people who do the work are employed by the State directly and they are there to vindicate people's rights.

We, as a country, are subscribers to the Geneva Convention. We must give people a fair hearing. What is unusual about this State — it reflects our history and the fact that this is a republic — is that there is a very low threshold for judicial review of any administrative act. In most European states it would be a very rare event that an applicant could get into the court system and go right to the top of that court system — up to the Supreme Court. For us, it is routine.

I do not want to delay because other members may have questions. If the Chairman does not mind, I will move to Vote 21 and chapters 6.1 and 6.2.

I have a question on Vote 21, subhead B, building and equipment, which is in addition to the office accommodation. The expenditure in 2007 was €94.5 million, which was approximately €6.75 million in excess of the Estimate provision. What is the reason for that? What building and equipment did we provide for €94.5 million in 2007?

Mr. Brian Purcell

In 2007, we had the opportunity to put in place some additional structures that would enable us to deal in future with the numbers of committals to custody. Initially, we had a planned expenditure of €48 million but, in addition, by virtue to some money becoming available to us during the course of that year, we were able to put in place some additional facilities within the system. The money we got for that would have come through other elements of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform's vote. For example, some of them would have referred to improvement of living conditions for prisoners, provision of a workshop for young offenders in St. Patrick's Institution, and refurbishment of some of the wings, cells and toilets in Mountjoy. The latter was as a result of an increased demand for accommodation in Mountjoy. We had to reopen a wing that had previously been closed down and we needed to refurbish it. In addition, we were able to put in place refurbished recreational facilities in Limerick Prison.

One of the main additional elements to it would have been security works that we put in place, or at least we began to put in place in 2007, when we identified that we had a major issue of what could be described as gang-related activities within the prisons that were well documented in the media at the time. A decision was taken that we would put in place a specialised unit, which became known as the operational security group, and that would have required a significant amount of expenditure on putting in place the physical infrastructure that would have been required. Essentially, what we were talking about here was introducing perimeter security measures similar to those that one would find in place in airports such as X-ray machines, walk-through metal detectors, specialised gates and one-way turnstiles. That was put in place specifically to counter what had become a growing problem within the system of what could loosely be described as gang-related activities.

To answer Deputy McCormack's original question, the money became available to us to carry out some works in the system that we would have been required to do in the future. While I cannot give details of every single project we undertook at that time, they were throughout, particularly the closed prisons. Essentially, they related to upgrading accommodation, providing additional accommodation and additional security measures. If the Deputy wishes, I could certainly forward at a later stage a detailed breakdown of each project that I have covered.

What is the position on Thornton Hall and what has it cost us?

Mr. Brian Purcell

Thornton Hall, as the Deputy will be aware, is the subject of a public private partnership, PPP, contract. The original site was acquired, the tender went out and in January 2007 a preferred bidder was selected. Since then, negotiations have been going on with the preferred bidder.

The PPP contract is for design, build, finance and maintain. We have had extensive negotiations ongoing since that period on the design and technical aspects of the prison campus in Thornton. In addition, there have been negotiations.

It is up to the consortium to provide the finance. Much of the time, since the selection of the preferred bidder in January 2007, has been taken up with what are detailed technical elements of the project such as the detailed design. The campus will include a range of 30 buildings — eight separate facilities catering from high security, medium security, low security to pre-release, a women's prison and a young offenders' institution. There has been a massive amount of technical work going into the design. A team from the Prison Service has been working in conjunction with the preferred bidder on that.

On the finance side the PPP process means that the Léargas consortium, who are the preferred bidders, must provide the finance. Barclays Bank, which is the finance element of the consortium, must source the relevant finance in the international capital markets. That is one reason there has been a delay recently in the Thornton Hall project. Given the obvious state of turmoil of the international financial markets the sourcing of that finance for a large programme such as this is a little more problematic than it might have been two years ago. At present, the consortium is dealing with that issue but it is up to it to provide the relevant level of finance. That is where the Thornton Hall project is at present. It is at a fairly advanced stage now in terms of the planning.

That is all very interesting. I asked what has Thornton Hall cost us to date, including the site and all the work of which he spoke.

Mr. Brian Purcell

The 150 acre site in Thornton Hall cost €30 million. In addition, we had to spend approximately €1.3 million to acquire eight and a half additional acres to use as a road access to the prison. That came about as a result of requests from members of the local community to the effect that we would not use the existing R130 route which runs from the old N2 to the Thornton Hall site. As a result of consultations with local community groups, including the board of management of a local school, a decision was taken to acquire — if this could be done at a reasonable cost — a strip of land that would enable us to provide an access route solely for the use of the prison.

By how much did the overall cost of €300 million increase as a result?

Mr. Brian Purcell

The cost of the site was €30 million, not €300 million.

Mr. Brian Purcell

As stated, €1.3 million was spent on the strip of land required for the access route.

What was the additional cost in respect of planning?

Mr. Brian Purcell

The cost of planning was approximately €9.7 million. Included in that figure are the costs relating to professional fees, site preparation fees, surveys, landscaping and security. I think the Deputy is suggesting these fees might not have had to be expended other than on the site at Thornton Hall. However, the reality is that for the type of development envisaged for a site that size, these professional survey and archaeological fees would have had to be expended, regardless of the site's location.

Or regardless of the cost of the site.

Mr. Brian Purcell

Yes. The costs involved related to technical, archaeological and engineering surveys of the soil and flora and fauna present at the site.

Will the prison ever be built?

Mr. Brian Purcell

I am absolutely certain that it will be.

Mr. Brian Purcell

Yes.

Mr. Purcell has stated that in the current economic climate it is much more difficult to obtain money than was the case three to four years ago.

Mr. Brian Purcell

Yes, absolutely. I do not believe members need me to inform them that in the current climate it is somewhat more difficult to source finance for a major project of this nature. Two to three years ago the banks would have been tripping over themselves to fund what would essentially be a blue chip project.

That was then, this is now.

Mr. Brian Purcell

That is the point I am making. The world has changed in the interim and sourcing finance is more problematic. We are being advised by the National Development Finance Agency which has assured us, following contact with the major players in the European capital markets, that there is a limited but significant number of banks and financial institutions which are in a position and prepared to finance public infrastructural projects.

I admire Mr. Purcell's optimism.

Mr. Brian Purcell

I thank the Deputy.

What is Mr. Purcell's estimate of the eventual cost of the project and what is the target date for completion?

Mr. Brian Purcell

We hope the contract will be signed before the end of the year.

Does the State own the site?

Mr. Brian Purcell

Yes. There are no issues in respect of its ownership. The construction phase will take three years from the time the contract is signed. If the contract is signed before the end of the year, it will be 2012 before the prison facility will be completed. However, the history of PPP projects has been that once builders arrive on site, they tend to finish their work in advance of the completion date. The reality is that builders will be paid the same amount of money, regardless of when they complete the work. As a result, they tend not to overrun in respect of completion dates.

For commercial reasons and because we are obliged to operate according to strict Department of Finance guidelines relating to the PPP process, I cannot divulge information on the full cost of the project.

A certain level of funding must have been set aside for the project.

Mr. Brian Purcell

Owing to the nature of the PPP process, there will be no outlay on the prison until it is built. It will then be financed and paid for over a 25-year period.

Are the officials from the Department of Finance in a position to indicate the amount of money which has been set aside for the project?

Ms Stephanie O’Donnell

The payments that will have to be made — these are equivalent to instalment payments on a mortgage — are a function of the negotiations. I am not privy to the detail of the negotiations. However, until the contract is signed, one cannot predict the level of finance involved. The negotiations are ongoing.

We have been informed that it is expected that the contract will be signed by the end of the year and that the likely completion date will be 2012.

Ms Stephanie O’Donnell

As Mr. Purcell explained, the way PPP projects work is that the payments are triggered——

I know how they work.

Ms Stephanie O’Donnell

This would not be a matter for next year's Estimates. If the project is not completed until 2012, the funding relating to it will only have to be made available from that date. That money would come from the normal Estimates process and be part of current spending.

Mr. John Conlan

The budget has been allocated by the Department of Finance in terms of the overall capital envelope. Those involved are aware of the public sector benchmark which has been approved in accordance with Department of Finance guidelines. The budgets are in place, but, under the guidelines, we are prevented from providing information on them owing to the commercially sensitive nature of such information.

Therefore, the envelope is in place.

Mr. John Conlan

Yes.

Is Mr. Purcell confident that the project will commence this year?

Mr. Brian Purcell

As stated, we are engaged in negotiations with the preferred tenderer, namely, the Léargas consortium. Provided the negotiations reach a successful conclusion and the contract is signed, we aim to proceed with the project at the end of the year. The negotiations have been protracted and arduous. The Minister has stated on a number of occasions that if the negotiations do not reach a successful conclusion, there are other options available which will be considered at that stage. Provided the negotiations with the Léargas consortium reach a successful conclusion, we expect that we will be in a position to proceed with construction by the end of the year.

Who is advising the Department in the matter?

Mr. Brian Purcell

The National Development Finance Agency is advising on the financial elements of the project and McCann Fitzgerald Solicitors are advising on the legal aspects. In addition, other consultants have been engaged to provide advice on the engineering, architectural and archaeological aspects of the project.

Mr. Seán Aylward

I remind members that the cost of acquisition of the site was achieved within the resources of the Irish Prison Service through the disposal of 20 acres of prime development land it controlled at Shanganagh Castle. This land was sold partly for social housing, at a modest price, and then at the top of the market for commercial development. The Irish Prison Service engaged in good management in the context of recovering the cost involved in purchasing a site ten times the size of the Shanganagh Castle site.

It is widely recognised that we did not obtain value for money in respect of the site the State purchased at Thornton Hall. No one can argue that the opposite is true.

Mr. Seán Aylward

I am not trying to dispute that fact or revisit the argument. I am merely stating we sold land at a tremendously high price in order to buy a much larger parcel of land that is suitable for a prison. That is the only point I wish to make. One can only purchase land at the price at which people are willing to sell.

There were those who were amenable to selling other parcels of land at much lower prices.

Mr. Seán Aylward

The committee investigated that matter in great detail.

The Chairman has inquired how certain we are the project will proceed. I am certain of one thing, namely, that the State needs the capacity that the new prison — like any other utility — will provide. Unfortunately, a functioning democratic state must be able to hold in custody those people the courts state must be put away for their crimes. We must have a new prison and this project must proceed.

Mr. Aylward will have no argument with me on that matter.

My final question relates to chapter 6.1. In 2006, three contracts exceeding the €25,000 limit were awarded without going through the competitive process. They cost €260,000 or an average of €86,000, which is €61,000 above the guideline. There should have been a competitive process. I would not be too alarmed about this, except that in 2007 approximately 60 contracts were awarded without going through the competitive process and they were worth €18.6 million. The Prison Service was on a slippery slope between 2006 and 2007 and the position worsened considerably in 2007. The average cost of the 60 projects was €310,000, which was €285,000 above the limit. Why were contracts awarded in contravention of the rule that a competitive process should be held for contacts worth in excess of €25,000? Who made the decisions? How were they justified?

Mr. Brian Purcell

First, the picture painted by the move from three contracts to 60 contracts between 2006 and 2007 does not give a clear enough indication of what was the position. In 2006, we misinterpreted the scope of the 4402 circular in our return and we put in new contracts that were entered into and awarded without competitive tender whereas we should have put in any contracts that were in place at that stage and that were covered by the terms of that particular circular. It was acknowledged by the Comptroller and Auditor General in the report that when we did the return for 2007, we identified in March the fact that there were weaknesses in our procurement system and we moved quickly to put in place a set of policies and procedures that would facilitate ensuring that the procurement arrangements the Prison Service had in place would correspond to all the relevant procedures and regulations. During that examination, we discovered the fact that there were additional contracts that should have been covered in the 2006 report, and which would have fallen within it, and we then put them into the new procedures we were putting in place. What effectively happened was that we identified a problem within our system and we moved quickly to put in place the necessary structures and procedures that would ensure, while it happened in the past in regard to those contracts, it would not happen going forward.

Even though the Department moved in March 2007, contracts worth €18.6 million at an average cost of €310,000, which were completely and absolutely in breach of the guidelines on tendering for any contract worth in excess of €25,000, had been awarded.

Mr. Brian Purcell

We have acknowledged that the contracts——

Having acknowledged it, was there an investigation into who made the decisions? Was disciplinary action taken against the person or persons who made the decisions to award contracts without going through the competitive process? If they were small contracts, as was the case in 2006, I would acknowledge that they could have been overlooked but the position in 2007 was much more serious.

Mr. Brian Purcell

The 60 contracts in 2007 referred to by the Deputy——-

The average cost was €310,000. What was the most expensive contract?

Mr. Brian Purcell

My director of finance will get that figure and I will come back to the Deputy later on that. The situation is that we procure products and services for the full range of prisons within the system. There are 14 prisons now and the number was 15 then. The reasons some of the contracts were not tendered for fall essentially into three categories — first, they were proprietary, special contracts. In other words, a specialised service was being provided. The Prison Service is an operational, high security organisation and, therefore, there is not a massive range of people to supply certain products and services. In some instances, only one company can provide the service. A good example is the high security locking devices we must use on the cells and gates in the prison.

Where more than one company can provide the service, how is that decided?

Mr. Brian Purcell

The largest contract was €2.6 million to Campbell Catering.

It is astonishing that a contract for €2.6 million was awarded without going through the competitive process when the Prison Service is supposed to go through this process for every contract worth in excess of €2.6 million.

Mr. Brian Purcell

The Campbell Catering contact was originally awarded through a competitive tender that fulfilled all the necessary procedures but, afterwards, it was rolled over. The contract fulfils the catering facilities for staff within the prison system. Within our kitchens, we provide the food for prisoners but Campbell Catering covers the messes, which are used by the staff.

I am not addressing what Campbell Catering does. I am interested in a contract for €2.6 million being rolled over when it is supposed to be subject to the tender process. Has it been tendered since? Who was awarded the contract in 2008? Did it go through the tendering process?

Mr. Brian Purcell

It was originally tendered in 2001 and it was extended. One of the reasons——

That is worse. If a tender was given in 2001 and rolled over since at a cost of €2.6 million in 2007 without going through the tendering process, somebody should answer for that when every contract worth more than €25,000 is supposed to be subject a tendering process.

Mr. Brian Purcell

It was tendered——

Mr. Brian Purcell

In 2001 and the contract was awarded for three years, which would have taken us up to the end of 2004. During that time——

After 2004 was there a tender?

Will the Deputy allow Mr. Purcell to answer the questions?

My questions are brief but Mr. Purcell's answers are long.

Will the Deputy allow him to finish his reply before he asks his next question?

Mr. Brian Purcell

It was rolled over after that for a few reasons. Extended industrial relations negotiations were going on at the time with the Prison Officers Association and the reason I had to get into the detail of what the contract covered, which is the food for prison staff, was that it was one of the issues under discussions. As we did not come to a conclusion on that for some time and we still had to provide for the staff, that is one of the reasons the contract was rolled over. Subsequent to that, we began to prepare a tender to go to the market but I have instructed our people to look at the fact we have well equipped kitchens within the prison system that provide the food for prisoners. We have won certain quality awards for cleanliness, hygiene, food preparation, etc., in the kitchens. A sum of €2.6 million is a great deal of money to pay to a private contractor when we have the capability within the system to feed our staff from those kitchens.

I would like to come back in.

With all due respect, Deputy, you have used your time.

My time is up. The contract's time was certainly up long before my time was up. I am glad Mr. Purcell has said that the Prison Service has new kitchens. He has answered a question I was going to ask. Between 2004 and 2007, it cost an average of €2.6 million, on a non-contract basis, to feed the staff of the service for each year. That deserves much more scrutiny than I can give it. Perhaps some of the other members of the committee will go into it.

I will go into it. I am sure Deputy Collins and others will do likewise. I would like more information on the contracts that were agreed, especially in respect of capital projects, from early in this decade until the present day. I am concerned that EU procurement law was breached when contracts rolled over from project to project. Can information on capital projects in Loughan House, Limerick Prison and other institutions be prepared while Deputy Collins asks a few questions? I refer specifically to projects undertaken by common contractors who were not put through the tender process.

On Thornton Hall, the Prison Service's presentation should have made the point that the value for money being achieved in the construction sector is now better than it was in 2007 when the site was purchased. A balancing mechanism could possibly be put in place. What will the capacity of the Thornton Hall prison be? Will it include a court complex?

Mr. Brian Purcell

The Deputy's first point related to the value for money that should be achieved in the marketplace. That is one of the reasons the negotiations with the consortium have been so protracted. We are insisting that we get the value for money that should be available on foot of the considerable reduction in construction costs that has taken place since the status of "preferred tender" was originally awarded in January 2007. The Deputy can rest assured that we are pushing very hard to achieve that sort of value from the consortium, or whoever will end up building the prison.

I will answer the Deputy's question about numbers. The new prison at Thornton Hall will offer 1,450 new prison spaces. It will be possible to cater for 2,200 prisoners if there are two people in some cells. The cells are being constructed to a specification of 11 sq. m., including in-cell sanitation and shower facilities. We deliberately chose that specification to provide for the population of the prison to be expanded, if necessary. There will be eight facilities on the site, which measures 150 acres. We will be able to provide a range of quality services that could not be provided on a smaller site. We envisage that 1,450 prisoners will be housed in the prison initially, although it is being designed in a way that will give it the capability to cater for up to 2,200 prisoners.

The Prison Service is in negotiations about the construction of an initial complex on the 150-acre site. Will further capacity be available at the site if it is decided at a later stage that further facilities need to be added as part of a second phase of development at Thornton Hall?

Mr. Brian Purcell

The site is big enough. If further accommodation is needed at some future stage, it will be possible to do that.

What proportion of the 150-acre site will be covered by the footprint of the initial phase 1 development?

Mr. Brian Purcell

We have set aside 20 acres for the Department of Health and Children so that a new Central Mental Hospital facility can be located there, if necessary. The rest of the prison site — approximately 130 acres — will have a secure perimeter, or sterile zone, of between 30 m and 40 m. The advantages of such a zone are obvious when one considers the layout of Mountjoy Prison, which is to be replaced by the Thornton Hall facility. In some cases, the exercise yards of Mountjoy Prison are right against the perimeter walls which, in turn, face on to the streets of the city. If it is necessary at some stage in the future, we will be able to increase the capacity of the prison on the Thornton Hall site without acquiring any further land outside the sterile zone. It is a very big site. When one considers that we cater for approximately 1,000 prisoners at the current Mountjoy Prison site, which is less than 20 acres, one can see how much more we will be able to do with a 130-acre site. It is envisaged, in the plans that have been drawn up, that the Thornton Hall site will fulfil all the prison needs of the greater Dublin area for the foreseeable future.

Is it planned to wind down any of the Prison Service's other facilities throughout the country when the Thornton Hall prison is up and running at full capacity? Is the overall capacity of the Prison Service being increased, or will Thornton Hall merely replace some of the existing capacity?

Mr. Brian Purcell

It is a bit of both.

Mr. Brian Purcell

It will replace the Mountjoy complex in its entirety. At present, there are four separate institutions — the male prison, St. Patrick's Institution for young offenders, the female prison and the training unit — on the Mountjoy campus. The Thornton Hall facility will directly replace those four institutions, which currently cater for approximately 1,000 people. Additional capacity is being built into the Thornton Hall complex to cover what we believe will be an increase in the prison population into the future. We expect that the Thornton Hall complex will cover those needs. Mountjoy Prison has served us for 150 years. The Thornton Hall facility will not have a 20-year life span. The 1,450 new prison spaces will meet our immediate needs. Provision will be made, if necessary, for additional capacity to cater for 2,200 prisoners in total. I assure Deputy Collins that the site that has been acquired offers sufficient capacity to provide further additional accommodation, over and above the 2,200 level, if it is needed.

Will there be a court complex on the site?

Mr. Brian Purcell

No provision has been made for a court complex on the site.

Mr. Brian Purcell

Cloverhill Prison will continue to cater for remand prisoners. Most court appearances are made by such prisoners. The new Central Criminal Court complex being developed at Parkgate Street will continue to meet the greater needs of the other criminal courts.

Fine. At a previous meeting of this committee, Mr. Purcell mentioned that the Prison Service was investigating the possibility of using technology to block the use of mobile phones on prison campuses. At that time, the service was experiencing difficulties during the testing phase.

Mr. Brian Purcell

Yes.

Has any progress been made with that? Mr. Purcell will be familiar with a recent incident in Limerick. It is obvious that mobile telephones are a problem in every prison.

Mr. Brian Purcell

As I said on that occasion, mobile phones are a major problem for the Prison Service. Advances in mobile phone technology pose major problems to prison systems in all parts of the world. We decided that we needed to examine how mobile phones can be prevented from getting in to prisons and, critically, how their use can be blocked if they get in. No system is 100% foolproof. Deputy Collins mentioned the recent Limerick case, in which a member of the staff of a prison was arrested by the Garda Síochána. It is difficult to ensure that systems are watertight. We decided to put in place a technological solution — the use of blocking technology — to the problem of mobile phone use in prisons.

When I spoke to the committee last year, the pilot phase of a project in the Midlands Prison, aimed at blocking the use of mobile phones in the prison, was continuing. Since then, the pilot phase has been completed. All the necessary evaluations and forms of testing have been done by the Prison Service, by the contractors that installed the blocking technology and by ComReg, for which this is a major issue

One of the difficulties associated with the use of mobile phone blocking technology is that it can cause an overspill. Rather than merely blocking the use of mobile phones in the prison itself, this technology sometimes blocks the use of mobile phones in an area outside of the perimeter of the prison too. Under the EU regulations in place which ComReg has to enforce, we cannot do this. One of the reasons the project took so long was we had to fit it in within a very tight spec in relation to overspill. As I pointed out when we were asked this question, this is not some package one can buy off the shelf and put up on the wall; it is cutting edge, state-of-the-art technology. As I said, the pilot process was finished, the evaluations have been completed and we are satisfied that we have achieved virtually total blocking in the areas in the prison to which prisoners have unsupervised access. It has, therefore, proved to be successful, notwithstanding that it took a long time to put it in place.

We are in the early stages of blocking the new block in the maximum security prison beside the Midlands Prison in Portlaoise and a second block within that prison perimeter. In addition, three other pilot projects using other technology are ongoing in Limerick Prison, Mountjoy Prison and Cloverhill Prison. These are to ascertain whether other technology we have identified can give us comparable or better results. The intention is that we will roll out the blocking technology, starting with Portlaoise Prison. We hope to do this in the next couple of months. The next phase will involve looking at the campus of Wheatfield and Cloverhill prisons.

One of the reasons we chose the Midlands Prison, the new block in Portlaoise Prison and the Wheatfield-Cloverhill complex is that in the older buildings — the likes of Mountjoy Prison and the old wing in Limerick Prison which date back 140 years and more — the thickness of the walls and the design make it technically very difficult to achieve the blockage one requires at a cost one can afford. We are proceeding with the project and thus far the combination of the blocking technology in the Midlands Prison and the introduction of the new security measures — the operational support group I mentioned in reply to Deputy McCormack's question — have been successful. We have had a number of significant seizures through the combination of the operational support group measures and the new technology we have introduced which effectively blocks the signal and makes it more difficult.

To return to Vote 19, the main Vote, which we discussed initially in terms of asylum, how many asylum seekers are catered in the provision of accommodation?

Mr. Seán Aylward

The figure for direct provision is 7,500. I apologise for interrupting.

Is the figure falling?

Mr. Seán Aylward

No, I have to be very careful in what I say. The number coming into the country and applying for asylum for the first time is falling but the number in direct provision has remained static. In fact, it has increased somewhat. This is because some people who had gone AWOL returned, registered and asked to be housed. We have a significant number of such persons and anticipate that this trend will continue for some time to come.

Is the Department contractually committed to a large number of properties around the country? What timeframe does it use when it commits to properties?

Mr. Seán Aylward

I assure the Deputy and the committee on this point that we enter into short-term contracts which we can get out of. We have break points on these contracts.

What is a typical contract?

Mr. Seán Aylward

It depends on the size of the facility. In some cases where we think the need in a particular locality may be short term, we may lease for as short a period as three months. However, we are acutely aware of the need to avoid paying for an empty premises. In many cases, the contracts are not for a whole building but for the provision of a certain number of bed nights. We are only paying for occupied beds in some of these facilities. It is, therefore, a tightly driven process, where the staff involved have become increasingly proficient and are driving down the cost per night all the time. For completeness, the cost per bed per night now averages €29 which is good value for money, given the client group about which we are talking.

I cannot dispute that. On the free legal aid service, will Mr. Aylward provide an overview of how the Department monitors demand for this service? In the current economic climate demand-led schemes have become an issue for many Departments. Recently, for example, in the case of the farm waste management scheme, the relevant Department did not know how many applications would be made under it.

Free legal aid is a major item of expenditure in the Department's Vote. How is it monitored? Gangland criminals living in big houses and driving large, modified cars can avail of free legal aid when brought before the courts. Members of the public have a problem with this and many bring it to the attention of public representatives. These criminals are able to access the full battery of legal aid and may have a senior counsel, a couple of junior counsel and a couple of solicitors appointed on their behalf. It is open-ended.

Mr. Seán Aylward

We are in a dilemma. I do not think it would be acceptable for teams of solicitors in private practice to be paid for with drug money. Our philosophy is to take the drug money — the illegally acquired assets — away from people through the Criminal Assets Bureau, not to free people to deploy the money to hire solicitors. The vast majority who have been before the courts are not drug lords. Without wishing to use a disparaging term to describe such people, they are small fish. As someone who worked for nine years in prison administration, it is clear that the vast majority one meets in prison are obviously poor and without means.

The judges in the courts administer the criminal legal aid system which is demand-led and fluctuates according to the number of people brought before the courts. Practitioners who benefit from the criminal legal aid system have made the point to me that to make orders that they be paid from the bank accounts of some of their clients which we are freezing would be to ask them to accept tainted money in payment. We have a scheme of law which is very effective at sequestrating the assets of the people the Deputy describes. Even recent news reports chronicled in at least one sad case how even the car of one individual was taken away from him. The Garda is extremely active, including in the Deputy's part of the world, in pursuing the assets of the people concerned.

We have another way of dealing with this matter. When people appear before the courts, the issue is whether they have legally acquired income or assets that can be deployed to retain legal counsel. No matter what we think about individuals, in our structure they are entitled to a full defence before the law. We have a corpus of lawyers within the State who will, with equal vigour and competence, prosecute or defend. It is one of the benefits of our system that no matter what anybody thinks of an individual, he or she will have very competent legal representation. I take comfort in this because I know that if somebody has been convicted and given a big sentence, he or she will have had the best defence and every consideration will have been given to his or her case. We will know, therefore, that he or she has been justly put away if he or she has been convicted. There is no question of somebody suffering from not being properly represented. People are properly represented but also properly prosecuted. Some of the best brains in the State are devoted to putting them away as well as to defending them.

I accept that but a problem of perception exists.

Mr. Seán Aylward

There is a perception problem and the question of appearances. I do not think we would be comfortable with giving a criminal a free hand with his bank accounts to go looking to hire someone to defend him with illegally acquired money. Our attitude is to take the money off him.

I do not have the figures before me but I meant to bring them along. In terms of the applications to the Department for student visas, there is a big disparity between this country and the United Kingdom in terms of the acceptance and rejection rate. What level of interaction does the Department have with the Department of Education and Science in terms of vetting the applications? A different debate is going on regarding the funding of third level. In the UK the acceptance of student visa applications is approximately 90% while our level of rejection is approximately 90%.

Mr. Seán Aylward

I do not know Deputy Collins's source for that data. If I might be so bold I suspect it might be somebody in the sector.

They were official sources from Mr. Aylward's Department.

Mr. Seán Aylward

I think our rejection rate is approximately 10% but we do have a problem in the sector with people running what are loosely called English language schools who tout for business, often from some of the poorest parts of the world. That is because we have a scheme that allows people to work 22.5 hours per week while studying. We have repeatedly found that so-called schools have been touting for people and charging them a lot of money because of the related right to work and not providing them with a true service. We have taken this up many times with our colleagues in the Department of Education and Science. I do not believe that bona fide students who really need to come here to learn something are being turned away. We have had a problem, because the scheme is such a magnet for people from poorer parts of the world. They pay a lot of money to get a place here and there is very little scrutiny as to the quality of the "education" being provided. It is a very active sector, which lobbies people in this House incessantly, and to be quite candid, misrepresents the position.

One expenditure subhead relates to a graffiti removal operation. I think the outturn was €1.5 million in 2007. Will Mr. Aylward enlighten me as to what that is?

Mr. Seán Aylward

This is a joint project between my Department and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. It has had the active support of the Ministers in both Departments over the years. It is partly based on some of the experience in the United States of what people call "broken window" theory. There is a view, which I share, that the degradation of neighbourhoods through graffiti grants petty vandals and minor league offenders permission to do worse. They graduate from vandalising the walls and fixed objects in an area to vandalising the lighting and attacking cars and homes. To use a phrase from the United States, "There goes the neighbourhood".

As a support to reclaiming neighbourhoods and making people feel safe as they move around their neighbourhoods we have been experimenting with a number of schemes with the support of our colleagues in the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to see whether we can quickly eliminate graffiti where it pops up. It is an expensive process and I do not claim we have got it right. It is something I would prefer to see led by local authorities and communities but we have been piloting it in a few areas in the State in an attempt to see whether we can do something about reclaiming neighbourhoods to make them feel safer environments in which people can live and to discourage anti-social activity. I do not subscribe to the view that graffiti is a form of art; it is a form of claiming a neighbourhood for oneself and saying, my writ runs here not that of normal people, and it must be discouraged and rejected.

If I can be parochial I wish to ask Mr. Purcell about the Cork area, specifically Spike Island and the proposed prison that is going to Kilworth. Is Spike Island in State ownership?

Mr. Brian Purcell

Yes.

It has been closed since 2004. Is there any activity there?

Mr. Brian Purcell

The prison has been closed since 2004.

Is security involved there?

Mr. Brian Purcell

We did have security initially. That was during a period when we were still carrying out site surveys on the island when it was originally intended that we would redevelop the site on Spike Island, but since then, as Deputy Clune mentioned, we are acquiring a 160 acre site from the Defence Forces and the Department of Defence at Kilworth. Redeveloping Spike Island was going to be problematic in the context of the amount of land available on which we would have been able to build, and there were also other issues, not least of which was the fact that there was no bridge and we would have had, in effect, to build a bridge to access the Spike Island site. In effect, we might have had to pay up to €20 million to build a bridge and all we would have been getting for that money would have been a gate to the site. When an opportunity arose to acquire a site from the Defence Forces at the Army ranges in Kilworth a decision was taken to move on that as it was felt it was a much better proposal to give us the required accommodation than the redevelopment of Spike Island.

Are there plans to dispose of Spike Island or are there any takers? I know there is much talk in the area of developing it as a heritage centre.

Mr. Brian Purcell

Following on from the Government decision that we would get the site at Kilworth an interdepartmental committee was set up to examine what purpose Spike Island might be usefully put to in the future. In that context I have had discussions with Cork County Council about the site. As far as we are concerned there is no future for us on Spike Island in terms of a prison. The fort itself is a national monument and there is no future for small stand-alone prisons, especially one that one has to access either by a ferry or by building a bridge at great expense. A committee was put in place to consider what to do with Spike Island. I have been in consultation with Cork County Council about the island site, which we still own.

Is the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government involved in the interdepartmental committee?

Mr. Brian Purcell

I think it was set up under the chairmanship of the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. It includes representatives from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism. The intention was that the committee would examine the site with a view to putting it to a purpose other than use on an ongoing basis as a prison facility. That is the situation as it stands.

Has a decision been taken as yet?

Mr. Brian Purcell

No decision has been made as yet. I have had a number of consultations with the county manager in Cork about it and the county council has some ideas about how it could best put a site like that to use in terms of developing it. I think the intention is to develop it as a tourist amenity. That sounds like a very good idea to me for a site like that because as Deputy Clune is aware the fort is a national monument and there is a burial ground on it, which has a long history dating back to Famine days. I think Cork County Council intends to develop it in phases as a tourist amenity. That approach has a lot of merit.

I have already indicated to the county manager that subject to the deliberations of the interdepartmental committee, the Prison Service or the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform would be in favour of the local county council developing the island for the benefit of not only the locals in Cobh and surrounding areas but also the wider Cork area and the country as a whole.

What about the Kilworth site? Overcrowding in Cork Prison is a very big problem.

Mr. Brian Purcell

The Deputy is absolutely right. The overcrowding in Cork Prison has been difficult for us to manage. That is why we regard Kilworth, involving the provision of 45 spaces, as the long-term solution to that problem.

There are only 270 places in Cork.

Mr. Brian Purcell

Yes, we are under constant pressure in Cork because of the size of the facility. Also, as the Deputy is probably aware, the footprint of the site is so small that the opportunities for development are limited. This is why we believe the 160-acre facility at Kilworth will be of assistance. The Thornton site is effectively 150 acres minus 20, that is, 130 acres, while there will be 160 acres in Kilworth. This offers massive potential for putting in place the new prison and, if need be, for further development on the site.

Has the Kilworth site not yet been acquired by the Department? Is it still under the aegis of the Department of Defence?

Mr. Brian Purcell

It is in State ownership under the Department of Defence. A Government decision was taken that there would be a transfer of the site from that Department.

Was that in 2006?

Mr. Brian Purcell

Yes.

Has there been any progress since?

Mr. Brian Purcell

We have carried out some preliminary surveys but the reality is that, until such time as we get the Thornton project at least to the construction phase, we will not be in a position to move further. We have done the preliminary business case required under the procedures. This must be followed by a more detailed business case, which will be prepared as we approach the commencement of the construction phase at Thornton. I hope progress will be made from there.

That sounds like a long time.

Mr. Brian Purcell

Certainly. First, we have to get the go-ahead and, second, a decision must be taken, but not by us, on the method of procurement, be it by way of PPP or the normal procurement procedure. As the Secretary General has already pointed out in respect of Kilworth and Thornton, we need the spaces. We are under extreme pressure in Cork Prison owing to the numbers coming through, as the Deputy has indicated. The development of the Kilworth site is the only feasible approach to deal with this problem. It will not get any better in the short term because all the indications are that the number of people entering the system is on a consistently upward curve. We need to make progress and it will take some time. It is absolutely necessary from my point of view as director general of the Irish Prison Service.

I want to ask a question about the Vote. Subhead G.18 refers to the Youth Justice Service and H.4 refers to juvenile offender initiatives. Less was spent on both of these in 2007 than anticipated. A sum of almost €42 million pertains to the Youth Justice Service and the outturn was €25 million. The provision for the juvenile offender initiatives was €6.9 million and the outturn was €2.2 million. Perhaps they are not related. Do the youth diversion projects fall under the Youth Justice Service subhead?

Mr. Seán Aylward

They are jointly managed. The Youth Justice Service funds those programmes. Usually there is a youth worker or group of youth workers hired to run a scheme but there is massive local Garda involvement. The local Garda chief superintendent and superintendent are generally central to those projects.

To answer the Deputy's first question, we were in the early start-up phase and were having the facilities handed over to us from the Department of Education and Science and we were recruiting the staff to roll out the programmes. It took a little longer to get some of those staff. In some cases, we held international competitions to try to recruit people of sufficient quality to manage what is a very complex area pertaining to young people. We also pledged to enhance the probation service by having a youth probation division. Again in this case, recruitment took a bit longer to progress. We also had to bring to Government proposals to augment the staff to spend that money. For example, on 18 April 2007, we wrote a memorandum to the Government — I had a hand in this — and sought and obtained approval for 71 additional professional administrative posts for the probation service, to work exclusively in the areas of juvenile justice and child protection. While we secured approval at that time of the year, it took a good while to recruit the people. We underspent because our ambition was greater than our achievement in terms of having the people to spend that money.

What are the figures for 2008? We are looking at figures for 2007.

Mr. Seán Aylward

I will try to obtain them.

I am aware there is a demand for these types of programmes.

Mr. Seán Aylward

Yes.

The focus should always be on prevention.

Mr. Seán Aylward

Alternatives. Interdiction is far better than incarceration.

Investment at that point is required.

Mr. Seán Aylward

We would not want the committee to believe we feel otherwise. An ounce of prevention is worth a ton of care.

Between proactive intervention and the provision of custody, we spent approximately €15 million last year. The spend has begun to catch up with our ambitions. We spent approximately €2 million on our youth diversion projects in 2007. That figure would have risen as we increased the number of projects. We increased the number to approximately 100. Therefore, this year the spend will be approximately €10 million.

Was the delay because of the recruitment of the social workers?

Mr. Seán Aylward

That has now happened. We got the people in. However, one must have very well qualified people to work with vulnerable children. It is not a field for amateurs. We need qualified, committed and trained people. I am happy to say we have got them. In its annual reports of recent years, the probation service has recognised that, for the first time, it really has got resources.

From 2006 to date, the number of youth diversion schemes nationally increased from 64 to approximately 100. We are now evaluating the quality of the work being done by such schemes. We want to avoid the trap in tough areas whereby such schemes are seen as goodies for baddies, in other words, that they would reward kids who are getting into trouble while not providing the same facilities for those who do not get into trouble. We must be very focused in what we do in the youth diversion projects. We must ensure they target misbehaviour and concentrate on the times, tendencies and behaviours that underpin the anti-social activity that drives the neighbours mad. I am talking about people acting up at night, usually under the influence of drink, at certain times of the week. The study is in its early stages but I have sat in on some of the sessions with the people conducting them. They tell me that, in most of the youth diversion areas covered, there are fewer than 100 children creating trouble, and that they are doing so in a period amounting to fewer than 15 hours per week in five areas or fewer in the neighbourhood. It is a case of homing in on this and having properly constructed activities that divert them and put them back on track.

We will not increase the 100 schemes nationwide but tweak them, on a co-operative basis with the Youth Justice Service, the Garda and the probation and welfare service, so they will be effective and reduce the harm, concern and upset in neighbourhoods. Anti-social behaviour is one of the biggest problems in our country today.

Mr. Aylward stated that a great deal of Garda work is involved. Is the Garda receptive to the programmes?

Mr. Seán Aylward

The Garda Commissioner and his team hugely support this programme and he has some superb people working on it. I have had the pleasure of sitting in on some of the meetings. The Commissioner will produce a youth policy document very shortly and it will be launched jointly by him and the Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Barry Andrews, in the coming weeks. This is the subject of tremendous focus on the part of the Garda Síochána. I accept the Garda Síochána is 14,000 strong but 100,000 gardaí would be needed if people did not generally behave themselves. Neighbourhoods, to a large extent, police themselves, as do families. It is a case of tackling the people who are at risk while supporting and encouraging good behaviour and well-run neighbourhoods. This is a good scheme and has the support of the Garda from the top.

When I was a Minister of State with responsibility for youth and sport, I found in some areas that some of these referred schemes were in competition with some of the mainstream youth organisations, such as Foróige, the National Youth Federation and Ógra Corcaigh. What interaction is there between these various programmes?

Mr. Seán Aylward

While I would not suggest it is perfect, I believe there is improved co-operation between the programmes in question. Some of the organisations referred to by the Chairman provide for these schemes on an agency basis. We do not try to re-invent the wheel but use the locally available services. In many cases, the children involved are those who would have been excluded from mainstream organisations and schemes. Far from competing for them, these are children whom no one wants.

There is a perception of "goodies" and "baddies" where better services are provided to children who are compliant. I have been at these centres and they are modestly provided for. In no sense could they be described as a luxury or superior to what might be available to the local Cumann Lúthchleas Gael or other clubs.

The children in question tend to be prone to truancy and excluded from schools and local clubs. I am the first to say we cannot cosset such children but have to confront the offending behaviour which will lead them into tragic lives. Increasingly, we are honing in on addressing aberrant behaviour which is abhorrent and has to be discouraged in a carefully nuanced way by professionals.

In case I gave a wrong impression, the organisations I referred to were dealing through the Outreach programmes with people who were at risk. They were not just catering for the more privileged but those at risk and expelled from school. I am glad there is a more formalised approach.

Mr. Seán Aylward

It is more streamlined and there is more consultation. It is not a difficulty which has reared its head in recent times.

That is good.

Mr. Seán Aylward

We are not competing for clients. The Garda Síochána identifies the children for the programme. They include children who have not just been expelled from school or barred from a local club but have appeared before the courts or Garda schemes, admitted to offences, been cautioned or put under supervision. They are at the outer edge, the most extreme at-risk category. I am not claiming the scheme is perfect but it is not duplicating or whittling away at any other service.

The scheme is excellent and producing some great results in some of the areas with which I am familiar.

What project was initiated by the Department in Loughan House, Blacklion, County Cavan, in 2003? What was the nature of the tender procedure and subsequent contracts given to the project?

Mr. Brian Purcell

The project in Loughan House was to provide additional and replacement accommodation in the open centre. The centre provided for dormitory accommodation for prisoners. It was old and there were various concerns about the building.

A decision was made that a purpose-built facility that would provide individual accommodation in an open centre setting was needed. One difficulty is that in more modern prisons, prisoners have individual cells and a full range of rehabilitative services. Many prisoners who would be considered more suitable for an open centre, especially those coming to the end of their sentences, would be reluctant to go into a dormitory setting. That was one reason behind the decision.

What was the cost of the project?

Mr. Brian Purcell

The 60-bed unit in Loughan House cost €4.7 million.

Was the contract subsequently extended to take in other projects?

Mr. Brian Purcell

Yes. The initial project put out for tender was for the Loughan House project but it made provision for a drawdown contract, lasting three years, for subsequent projects.

What projects were proceeded with subsequently?

Mr. Brian Purcell

At Loughan House, a new recreation and education unit was built subsequently at the cost of €6.2 million. An all-weather playing pitch was provided at a cost of €700,000. Perimeter security fencing and closed circuit television was installed at a cost of €1.2 million. Work on the roof of the original house cost €540,000 while work on the heating system in the original building came to €700,000.

Did the drawdown contract extend to other prisons?

Mr. Brian Purcell

Yes, several other projects were undertaken at various facilities. In Shelton Abbey, a new accommodation block was provided which cost €5.9 million. In Castlerea, a new 64-cell block is still under construction and will cost €21 million. A new control room was installed, costing €5.8 million. The exercise yard was realigned at a cost of €3.4 million because there was a problem with it being too close to the perimeter fence. A new gate-lock building, costing €1.8 million, and new prisoner recreation facilities, costing €5 million, were installed.

In Castlerea, a separate facility, known as The Grove, is an open prison setting in the secure perimeter walls. These were the original houses used by the doctors when Castlerea was a psychiatric hospital. We put in two houses there at a cost of €1.1 million with up to €5 million spent on services. To provide for the new block, one of the old hospital blocks had to be demolished at a cost of €300,000.

Under the drawdown contract, in Mountjoy Prison a new medical unit was installed at a cost of €1.5 million. The refurbishment of the two wings referred to earlier by Deputy McCormack came to €1.2 million. A new yard in C wing had to be installed to accommodate protection prisoners which cost €350,000.

In the Midlands Prison, Portlaoise, a new visiting area has just commenced construction and will cost €1.3 million. A new gate area in the stores will also be installed, costing €2 million. There was a kitchen refurbishing project in the training and development centre, amounting to €792,000. In Cloverhill Prison, work had to be done to set up a secure wing, at a cost of approximately €540,000.

I will stop Mr. Purcell there. Clearly there is a long list of projects that originated from a contract costing of €4.7 million, under the terms of a drawdown contract. I have run out of paper here, but so far it is about €100 million, or perhaps I am doing my sums wrong.

Mr. Brian Purcell

Some of these projects are still under way, and the Chairman is probably right in broad terms. We expect that by the time the completed projects and those under way are finished, the figure will be in the region of €100 million.

How in the name of God could one award all of these based on an original contract for €4.7 million, which originated in Loughan House? Under the terms of a drawdown contract all of these could be proceeded with without going to open tender. Does Mr. Purcell believe there has been a serious breach of European Union procedure and guidelines? Who has been advising the Irish Prison Service in all of this?

Mr. Brian Purcell

We tendered for a drawdown contract and the first project on that was the one at Loughan House which the Chairman has mentioned. It was a drawdown contract which we intended to have the opportunity of using for any building that occurred during the three year period in question. I listed a long number of projects there, some of which started in 2006, some in 2007, others before that and some are being finished off now. Only one of those projects would have exceeded €5 million, as stipulated under EU procedures.

There is one for €21 million.

Mr. Brian Purcell

That is the one I am referring to, at Castlerea.

There is a figure of €3.4 million for Castlerea, also, and €5 million somewhere else. I could not keep up with Mr. Purcell's detail, we shall have to get a list from him.

Mr. Brian Purcell

I can provide a list going forward for the committee.

My question is about finance. How was all of this operation authorised, since to me it does not guarantee value for money for the taxpayer? How did the Prison Service authorise all of these contracts based on a contract of €4.7 million originally? It originated in Loughan House and spread to Shelton, to Castlerea and I understand there was a project in Limerick. Is that correct?

Mr. Brian Purcell

There was a separate tender for that project.

That is all right, but all of these were entered into on the back of a €4.7 million contract. I should like to get the opinion of the Department of Finance on this.

Ms Stephanie O’Donnell

The first thing is that there was a delegated sanction in place, so the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform was sanctioned to go ahead subject to adherence with all the normal rules. It should have been using its own controls to check out whether it was in compliance with the terms under which it held the sanction.

Listening to what has been said, would Ms O'Donnell say the Department had been in compliance?

Ms Stephanie O’Donnell

No, from what I have heard it matter of concern.

Has it been in breach of European Union guidelines?

Ms Stephanie O’Donnell

I am not an expert on procurement guidelines, but if this is the case, we should all be concerned.

Is there any expert on procurement present?

Mr. Billy Noone

Yes, Chairman. The key consideration is that any arrangement put in place should be transparent and clearly specified in relation to the total value. The procedure for the award of contract should reflect the total value, be transparent and adequately competitive. Frameworks can be put in place on that basis which can allow for draw down contracts or ongoing arrangements, but I am not sure that they applied in this particular case. Frameworks can be put in place that respect the principles of openness, transparency and appropriate competition and from what I have heard it is not clear if this arrangement would be in line with an open and transparent procedure.

Surely the Department of Finance must have been aware of all those contracts before now. The question must have arisen in somebody's mind as regards whether the principle of transparency was being followed.

Mr. Billy Noone

As my colleague said, sanction would have been delegated on the basis that all the procedures, including procurement, would have been followed. That would be part of the normal sanctioning procedure.

Further to the Chairman's question, is it not illegal to have more than one roll-over?

Mr. Billy Noone

There are circumstances where roll-overs are permitted, although these are limited. As I have said, frameworks can be put in place that allow drawdown, provided they are drawn up on an open and transparent basis under clear rules.

Were those procedures put in place in this instance?

Mr. Billy Noone

As I said, from what I have heard it is not too clear that they were. It would have been necessary to advertise the scope and the extent of the requirements and these appear to have been major, in this instance.

Mr. Brian Purcell

It was not a roll-over contract. This was specifically advertised as a drawdown contract, the conditions of which were that the Irish Prison Service would reserve the right to award contracts on a drawdown basis from that contract for a period of three years. That is what happened.

Our concern is that the taxpayer gets value for money. How can Mr. Purcell guarantee that the taxpayer got value for money? For example what professional organisations were advising the Irish Prison Service in all of this?

Mr. Brian Purcell

The key question is whether we got value for money in relation to that. Our belief is that we got value for money. If one looks back on the period in question covered by the drawdown contract, one sees that we tendered this in July 2004, I believe, for a period of three years up to September 2007. During that period, as people will be well aware — it was touched on earlier in relation to the process for Thornton Hall — building costs were increasing significantly throughout the country — although they have come down considerably in the period from 2007 to date, and certainly in more recent months

That is all the more reason why the Irish Prison Service should have had a more hands-on approach, with costs going through the roof. It just allowed whoever was representing it to enter into further contracts and projects.

Mr. Brian Purcell

No, we had a drawdown contract in place. The figures being put in were effectively at 2004 prices. There was a proviso within the contract for some mechanism to cater for construction inflation.

I am not being rude, but take, for example, the Castlerea project which got €21 million. What year was that?

Mr. Brian Purcell

Work on that commenced, I believe, in February 2007.

Is Mr. Purcell telling me that he got that €21 million figure on 2004 prices?

Mr. Brian Purcell

Yes, there would have been a factor within the drawdown contract, a proviso that allowed——

How do we know that when we do not have competitive tendering?

Mr. Brian Purcell

The initial tender awarded was obviously evaluated and it was the best tender. That tender was awarded at 2004 prices. There was a proviso within that to cater for inflation and I believe it was up to a maximum of 12%. However, during that period the Society of Chartered Surveyors' index showed that construction costs had gone up by 17.4% and the CSO's wholesale price index for building and construction materials showed an increase of 21.8%. We are saying that we got the buildings at 2004 prices, tendering for which went through the correct procedures and——

In my view they did not go through the correct procedures because there was no competitive tendering.

Mr. Brian Purcell

There was competitive tendering for the original contract. For the Castlerea——

Who were the people representing the Prison Service? Obviously, the service had quantity surveyors acting on its behalf.

Mr. Brian Purcell

We had a firm of quantity surveyors——

Were the same people who acted in 2004 acting in 2007?

Mr. Brian Purcell

In regard to the Castlerea project——

We will take that as an example because it is the most substantial.

Mr. Brian Purcell

Yes, they were.

What of the two houses in Castlerea that cost €1.2 million?

Mr. Brian Purcell

I would have to check that but I understand there are 12 or 14 bedrooms between the two houses. I will come back to the Deputy on that.

Are they individual houses?

Mr. Brian Purcell

They are two separate houses.

Did the Prison Service take advice in regard to EU procurement guidelines and the drawdown contract?

Mr. Brian Purcell

The drawdown contract was compliant with EU procurement guidelines.

Who told the Prison Service that?

Mr. Brian Purcell

We had our own advisers. The actual examination of the tenders was carried out by KMCS. Is the question in regard to the initial drawdown contract or the subsequent one for Castlerea?

The question was whether the Prison Service got advice that the drawdown contract was in compliance with EU procurement guidelines.

Mr. Brian Purcell

Was it the one for the Castlerea remand unit?

It was for the one outlined earlier. Did the Prison Service take advice on whether the procedures followed complied with EU procurement guidelines?

Mr. Brian Purcell

I think we had advice that, as long as we drew down within the period concerned, we were operating within the guidelines. The one weakness in that is the remand unit in Castlerea, which is certainly——

Who gave that advice?

Mr. John Conlan

We did not get specific legal advice on it but we would have used the project managers, KMCS, in the drawing down of the contract.

Was that from the very start and all the way through?

Mr. John Conlan

We advertised the contract on eTenders in 2004. We selected an example building, which was a combination facility in Loughan House, to evaluate the tender. Then, on the invitation to negotiate, or ITN, we specified that we could extend the tender for future drawdown.

Did the Prison Service use any consultants or experts on procurement law?

Mr. John Conlan

We did not get specific legal advice but we were advised by our project managers, KMCS.

What fees was KMCS paid over the period?

Mr. John Conlan

It would have received fees of €930,000 in 2007.

And over the period?

Mr. John Conlan

I would have to get that information.

Would it have been up to €2 million or €3 million?

Mr. John Conlan

I am sure it was paid a similar amount in 2008.

I am asking about the period from 2004 to 2007.

Mr. John Conlan

There would not have been that much in 2004. I would have to get the figures for the Chairman.

Mr. Brian Purcell

The Chairman's estimate, to my understanding, is probably accurate enough.

Was there a tendering process for all of these contracts over that period? Did the Prison Service's technical advisers have to tender for each of the individual projects?

Mr. Brian Purcell

No, they did not tender for each of the individual projects.

Was that in compliance with EU procurement guidelines?

Mr. Brian Purcell

I think——

At this stage, I will give the witnesses an opportunity to reflect on all of this and to come back to us very quickly. I am certainly not happy with what I have learned and heard today. From a base of €4.7 million, the Prison Service could enter into subsequent contracts up to almost €100 million without any tendering process or advice in regard to EU law, and the people advising it in regard to the technical side and pricing side had a drawdown contract from 2004 until 2007, as far as we know. Are these people still advising the Prison Service?

Mr. Brian Purcell

They are still engaged on some of the projects. We will come back to the Chairman on this issue.

I will make two points. First, I understand this has been referred to the Comptroller and Auditor General's value for money committee and I presume it will examine all aspects of the matter. However, separately, we had a value for money check carried out on three of the projects. We chose one large project, which was the Castlerea remand unit, one small project, which was the medical building in Mountjoy, and one unusual project, which was the special cells project which spanned across all the closed prisons. We engaged independent consultants to conduct three separate examinations and to consider this from a value for money perspective. The Castlerea project was compared to the Wheatfield block, which is currently nearing completion and which was tendered for——

I am sorry for interrupting. If the Prison Service was satisfied it was getting value for money and getting projects in 2007 at 2004 prices, why did it engage three groups of consultants to give it a clean bill of health regarding cost? What question marks were in your mind?

Mr. Brian Purcell

When we looked at this, we saw quite clearly that, going forward, this was not something we would be able to stand over. However, we were satisfied, based on the fact we were effectively getting buildings built at 2004 prices right through 2006, 2007 and 2008. However——

We do not know that because the Prison Service had the one group of experts and, therefore——

Mr. Brian Purcell

The Chairman is absolutely right. That is the reason we engaged the three outside firms. With regard to the big project——

How much did they cost to give the Prison Service a clean bill of health?

Mr. Brian Purcell

I am not sure exactly but I believe it might have cost approximately €8,000 between the three surveys.

It is €8,000.

Mr. Brian Purcell

I think so. The first one referred to the big project to which the Chairman referred, the remand unit in Castlerea. They compared it to the project in Wheatfield, which is a project for which we tendered according to the procedures during that period. They found that we achieved better value for money with the Castlerea project than we did with the Wheatfield project, which we tendered for in 2007 as well.

I know the Comptroller and Auditor General's value for money committee will give this a rigorous check but the information we have through our own check is that the remand unit in Castlerea, which was constructed on the basis of that drawdown contract, delivered better value for money than the Wheatfield project, although that project was described as achieving very good value for money in the context of the prices available at the time. The Castlerea project achieved better value for money in terms of what we got.

In presuming to speak for the members, the committee would require a fairly immediate response to all of the questions we have raised in regard to the advice the Prison Service received, the costings and EU procurement policy. I am flabbergasted that there seems to be a totally disjointed approach between the Department of Finance and the Prison Service on this issue. Nobody seems able to tell us whether EU procurement law has been adhered to, whether there has been transparency and value for money and whether the drawdown contracts have been properly dealt with. I will leave it at that. I am certainly unhappy.

Mr. Seán Aylward

While I do not want to eat up the committee's time, I wish to make one point. It would be a dangerous headline to take away from this meeting that we had a competition that simply looked for people to do a tiny project in one prison and then rolled it out to prisons all over the country, and that there was no hint to the market that there might be other work. It would be a great mistake to take that away from this meeting. The advertisement explicitly stated that the contract would involve undertaking work anywhere in Ireland as required over a three-year period. I would be the first to acknowledge that there are many questions to be answered and facts to be furnished to the committee. I have every respect for that. However, it would be a gross misunderstanding and misrepresentation to suggest this was simply a contract for a small unit in an open prison which ended up rolling out in other directions. That is not correct. It was a drawdown contract and it was explicitly tendered for on that basis, namely, that work would be required to be undertaken in any location in the State for the agreed prices over a three-year period.

That remains to be seen. We have sought answers on this issue from the Department of Finance and other sources but have not received them. Therefore we must draw our own conclusions.

Mr. Seán Aylward

Absolutely, and we want the committee to be in a position to do so. I assure the Chairman on that point.

I used the phrase "burning platform" earlier. During the period in question, my colleagues had to wrestle with incredible demands and pressures on the prison system, which drove them into making decisions of this character. The matter requires further study and I will provide every co-operation to the committee in this regard.

Yet, at the same time, the Department was in the process of closing Spike Island and another facility.

Mr. Seán Aylward

As someone who managed it in the past, I can say with confidence that the Spike Island facility was one of the greatest wastes of money within the prison system. Prisoners were held five to a cell and had to be shipped back and forth across the bay. It was a very unsuitable environment which was costing the system and the taxpayer a fortune.

It was Mr. Aylward who referred to a "burning platform".

Mr. Seán Aylward

That is correct.

My concern is that the platform was burning while these closures were being made.

In regard to the first tender, were the applicants aware at that stage that this was a very large contract which could eventually involve some €100 million of expenditure? The delegates said earlier that one part of it alone was worth some €2.5 million. Were the applicants aware they were tendering for very high value work over a three-year period? I agree with the Chairman that we must have a detailed account of all aspects of this contract.

Mr. Brian Purcell

We will provide the fuller and more detailed account requested by the Chairman. The tender quite specifically defined it as a drawdown arrangement which would come into operation for any work that required to be done during the three-year period in question. We did not exceed that three-year period——

However, in the specification——

Mr. Brian Purcell

We did not specify that the total value could be up to €100 million because we were not in a position to do so at that stage. It was impossible in July 2004 to say where we would be at three years later. As already mentioned, it became clear to us, particularly from 2006 onward, that the numbers being committed to custody were on a sharp upward curve. We adopted a drawdown approach in order to be in a position to proceed quickly to provide accommodation that was absolutely necessary. If we had not proceeded as quickly as we did, we would probably be sitting here today dealing with questions about prisoner numbers and being asked valid questions as to why we did not take note of the situation that was arising and why we did nothing about it. This is the burning platform to which Mr. Aylward referred. We recognised that we would have to cater for a situation that would be ongoing into the future. That is why we opted for a drawdown contract. The Chairman is right that there are questions to be answered in regard to whether or not we should have done so. The reality is that money became available and we decided to moved on this in order to put the necessary plans into motion.

It will happen from time to time that various Departments will come under immense pressure for a period. This is currently the case for the Department of Social and Family Affairs, for example, in the case of employment centres and so on. The concern of the committee is to ensure that the proper procurement procedures are followed regardless of any emergency that may arise at a particular time.

Does the Prison Service have a centralised procurement data centre?

Mr. Brian Purcell

I was just about to refer to that. I am not sure whether the Deputy was present earlier when I mentioned that we recognised in early 2007 that there were issues in regard to our procurement procedures which had to be addressed. Consequently, we moved quickly to set up a central procurement unit that would identify whatever we currently had within the system that needed to be put on track in terms of the correct procedures. The intention was that the unit would ensure that everything was done correctly and all the necessary boxes were ticked. We have endeavoured since then to ensure that this is the case.

This problem did not arise overnight and we knew it would not be possible to correct it immediately. Since then, however, we have made massive strides. Current procurement practices are close to best practice and compare more than favourably to those in place in many other areas. I do not mean to offer an excuse but I remind members that we effectively underwent two decentralisations during this period. We moved to Clondalkin in 2001 and subsequently to Longford, during which time we lost a considerable number of staff. There was an 80% churn of staff as a result of these decentralisations. The disadvantage of this was that some problems that might have been more readily identified by more experienced staff took longer to address. On the up side, we were fortunate in terms of the calibre of new staff recruited, some of whom have specialised knowledge. This facilitated a focused examination of the procedures we had in place.

It is a matter of serious concern that a loss of corporate knowledge may have facilitated the issues in regard to procurement procedures about which this committee and the Comptroller and Auditor General are concerned.

I have some questions on the prison system in general. Vote 21 indicates expenditure of some €400 million in respect of approximately 4,000 prisoners. Can Mr. Purcell tell us the current recidivism rate and what the pattern has been in recent years? In other words, has the Prison Service enjoyed any success in terms of helping people to remove themselves from a life of crime? How many of the current population, as of today, have been in prison on previous occasions?

Mr. Brian Purcell

It is an interesting question and one that is raised quite often. Until very recently, we did not have adequate information on recidivism rates but were obliged constantly to refer back to a survey that was based on a sample of 100 prisoners in Mountjoy Prison in the mid-1980s. However, we commissioned a survey from University College, Dublin, which was published 12 months ago, involving an indepth analysis of rates of recidivism across the entire prison system. While the small sample based on the population of one prison in the 1980s suggested a recidivism rate of 75%, this comprehensive analysis indicated a rate of approximately 50% after four years, which compares very favourably to systems elsewhere. There were claims at the time that the 50% rate suggested the prison system was failing. I argued that it proved it was working. Our recidivism rates based on that survey are lower than those in comparative jurisdictions.

Is Mr. Purcell saying that on this very day, approximately 50% of the 3,800 prisoners in the system are in prison for the first time?

Mr. Brian Purcell

To clarify, the findings indicate that of the current prison population, 50% will be back in custody in four years' time.

How many of the current prison population have been incarcerated because of a failure to pay fines?

Mr. Brian Purcell

As of today, 13 prisoners out of a total of some 3,870 are in prison for non-payment of fines.

Has that figure been reducing in recent years?

Mr. Brian Purcell

No, it has been quite constant. It ranges between ten and 20. Today it is 13; tomorrow it might be 11 and 20 the following day. However, despite what some commentators have suggested, a snapshot on any given day is the most accurate gauge of how many one has in. I believe 13 represents 0.3% of the prisoner population.

However, it constitutes 13 places that are being taken up. Although Deputy Jim O'Keeffe is not present, he has a particular legislative interest in trying to change this situation. I note that six people died in prison in 2007. Would that be an average figure for a year?

Mr. Brian Purcell

It is probably around the average. We had one bad year in 2006, in which there might have been 12 deaths. However, six to eight is the average. Some would have died from natural causes; there were perhaps two suicides, while in other cases we would have suspected there might have been a drugs overdose.

As part of my work, I call into some of the prisons occasionally. How many are involved in prison visiting committees and what is their cost? Does the Irish Prison Service deal with this matter?

Mr. Brian Purcell

No, the Irish Prison Service does not deal with them. I have regular meetings with the prison visiting committees and the average number of visiting committee members is nine. It was 12 but I believe the current Minister reduced it to nine per institution, although I am open to correction in that regard. At any given time, one might not have the full number.

Mr. Seán Aylward

The cost per annum for the prison visiting committees is €250,000. The figure has been drastically reduced in the last six or seven years as items such as mileage allowances and so on have been removed.

In the case of someone coming from south Kerry to Mountjoy Prison——

Mr. Seán Aylward

There is no gain to be had in doing that any more, as the amounts involved are small. While we now have an Inspector of Prisons and Places of Detention who reports to the Minister, he is one person with a very small team of two or three. Prison visiting committees have been part of the structure of the penal system since the foundation of the State.

Is it intended that the two functions might be merged? The Inspector of Prisons and Places of Detention may have a more professional approach.

Mr. Seán Aylward

That would be a policy decision for the Minister. In fairness to the committees, during the years they have been unsparing in their criticisms of the Department and prison management. They have acted as watchdogs, even if they have attracted criticism at times. They bring an element of outside scrutiny but their role has to a degree been superseded by that of the independent Inspector of Prisons and Places of Detention, first the late Dermot Kinlen and the current officeholder, Judge Michael Reilly.

I used to be the Labour Party's communications spokesperson and even allowing for conditions at Mountjoy Prison, I find it incredibly difficult to believe the Department still is talking about pilot schemes to solve the mobile phone problem. It recently appeared in the media that someone allegedly was able to direct a murder from one of our prisons. I find this hard to believe because five to seven years ago a number of people who ran cinemas in Britain and Ireland introduced blocking mechanisms. Visitors to such cinemas became upset that their mobile phones suddenly went dead when entering a particular part of the building. Consequently, I find it hard to believe this practice has not been stamped out.

The witnesses will be familiar with the perception of the prison service among the public sometimes being a cross between the old sitcom "Porridge" and the scene in the film "Goodfellas" in which an individual was able to cook lavishly during his incarceration. That perception persists because one still hears about mobile phones and the drugs problem in prisons. The Secretary General will remember the huge demand to get into the training unit at Mountjoy Prison because it was the only way in which one could remain drug-free. Some of those who might have entered prison drug-free were leaving with a drugs problem. There are still such issues. Consequently, I find it hard to believe the Irish Prison Service still lacks organised, effective measures to stop all contraband and that, in particular, given the continuous allegations that people are directing crime from inside prison, it could not have achieved this outcome.

Mr. Brian Purcell

A number of points were made by the Deputy. First, as I mentioned, the issue of mobile phones has been hugely problematic for us, as it has been for every other prison system throughout Europe and beyond. As I stated previously, I am unsure whether the Deputy was present——

Mr. Brian Purcell

——the system of mobile phone blocking we have installed has moved beyond the pilot stage. The pilot scheme has been completed and the evaluation is over. We are satisfied it has achieved what we set out to achieve. However, I will repeat what I stated because it bears repetition — this was cutting-edge technology. As for the devices mentioned by the Deputy in use in cinemas, he has probably noticed that he still can use a mobile phone in a cinema, if he wishes. The devices were illegal.

The communications regulator in the United Kingdom, Ofcom, stopped it. It deliberately stopped the practice and stated it was a restriction on civil rights. In this case, however, the people concerned have forfeited such rights because of their behaviour and it does not appear credible that the Irish Prison Service has been unable to stamp out the practice. It is an appalling judgment on the system that anyone can direct crime from inside one of our 14 institutions. This is mind-boggling and incredible.

Mr. Brian Purcell

My point is that we are taking every possible measure. The mobile phone blocking technology that we believe we have introduced successfully and which we are now rolling out only comprises one element. We have introduced a comprehensive package of security measures that involves 155 staff who are manning what essentially are three core elements, the first of which is perimeter security which, as I described, is similar to airport-style security measures. We have dog handler teams and are approximately two thirds of the way through their training and assignment. The third element is the operational support unit in each prison which specialises in the collation of intelligence and searching and which acts as a first response team. Since the unit was put in place in late 2008, we have enjoyed significant successes in the seizure of contraband, be it mobile phones, weapons or drugs, through the search teams, perimeter security and the dog handler teams. Combined with mobile phone blocking technology, we believe we have made significant inroads, in regular liaison with the Garda, in this regard. I cannot accept that we do not have the right system because we do.

This is an aspect on which the public desires the Irish Prison Service to take urgent action. While members have been lambasting the Department in respect of general expenditure, efforts to anticipate levels of crime and incarceration and so on, this is something the people simply want stopped. They desire prison to mean prison and for it to be the final sanction.

While I am unsure whether this pertains to Vote 19 or Vote 21, I wish to raise the inquiries regarding people from my neck of the woods who have died. First, was the expenditure recorded in 2007 in respect of the inquiry into the murder of Gary Douch the final figure? Second, I refer to the ongoing issue with which the Secretary General will be familiar of the Stardust inquiry and the recent decision by Dáil Éireann in respect of the original Stardust inquiry. Has expenditure on both inquiries come to an end or are they ongoing?

Mr. Seán Aylward

Expenditure on the Stardust inquiry has been completed. As for the Gary Douch inquiry, it has not been completed. The prisoner who is accused of that unlawful killing will come to trial in the next couple of months. As it has been a one-person inquiry, not a panoply of legal people, the costs have been controlled.

Ms Gráinne McMorrow, SC, has been drafting a template report and researching the penal systems of Ireland and elsewhere. Her background is interesting in that she was a founder member and legal officer of SANE, a UK organisation dealing with people in custodial settings who have mental illness problems. She also worked in Michael Mansfield's chambers in England. While she is uniquely qualified for the task, she has predominantly carried it out alone. So as not to prejudice the trial, she has not held public hearings, but she has done an immense amount of work — I know this because I have kept checking, since it is a subject in which I am interested — to determine how to prevent such a tragedy recurring. We will have a fine report in short time, but the interval has not been wasted. Although she has not been sitting on her hands, she has been running with limited support. She has brought a lifetime's experience and interest in the subject to bear.

Is Mr. Aylward saying——

Mr. Seán Aylward

Further costs will be incurred this year, but it will provide a fine product that will be more than just an analysis of what occurred, a matter on which the courts will adjudicate. We will draw on advice based on international experience and a balance between common sense and legal rights. One of the great dilemmas is the balance between free association — allowing people to come and go — and control of prisoners. The public always cries for total control and punishment. People like ourselves struggle to strike a balance, although we sometimes get it wrong.

The Stardust inquiry is done and paid for. Dáil Éireann has helped to redress the families' hurt and concern around the shadow lying over one of the victims due to the suggestion that the fire might have been caused by a vandal. We hope the report on the Gary Douch inquiry will be completed this year, as it should provide future guidance and reduce the chance of such a tragedy recurring.

I will shortly hand over to my colleague. Youth justice is the background of the latter inquiry and reverts to my colleagues' questions on youth diversion and what the State is doing to prevent people going to prison in the first instance.

I welcome the delegation. I share the Chairman's concerns about the serious issues identified by the Comptroller and Auditor General and the fact that no one seems to be in a position to provide the breakdown we are seeking. The breaching of procurement rules is the key issue. Our guests are not adequately equipped to deal with the committee's questions, for which reason another session will be required. It is regrettable.

Between the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Finance, what is the chain of command in the oversight of adherence to expenditure rules and regulations in the Prison Service?

Mr. Seán Aylward

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is politically accountable for the operation of the justice system and the Secretary General is the Accounting Officer for elements therein, including the Prison Service. The service has a board with a primarily independent membership and is chaired by a business man. It has a director general, who is appointed following public competition. He has at his disposal trained accountants to help to run his finance division. The Prison Service operates with moneys voted by the Oireachtas and according to sanctions and delegated sanctions given by the Department of Finance. In most of its major building projects it acts in partnership with the Office of Public Works, which has an array of legal and other advice.

On a day-to-day basis, the people who run the prisons are in touch with the Minister or myself and we exercise a degree of oversight and scrutiny of what they are doing. During the period in question, our concentration was heavily focused on the culmination of one of the State's longest industrial relations battles. The first full year in which we eliminated overtime from the penal system was 2007.

I appreciate that, but I am asking——

Mr. Seán Aylward

It was a titanic struggle and one to which our energies went in that period. While there were structures, they were focused in a different direction. It was the burning platform that I described. Now that the tumult has died and the frenzy has passed, much tighter controls are being put in place.

We have reams of data on the issues the committee is addressing, but they are not organised to give sufficient information to make a judgment call or to prescribe for the future. We will give the data to the committee within days. I am sorry if we have not provided as complete a picture as members rightly expected, but we will set that situation right.

If the committee cares to visit some of the facilities, members will not be persuaded that there have been instances of poor value for money. However, I would have preferred it to have been done in a different way.

A common practice seems to be developing among State agencies that appear before the committee after the Comptroller and Auditor General has identified problems. We are seeking accountability for public money that was either not spent in accordance with proper procedures or was wasted, but we are being told that times were different, reasons existed and the problem has been sorted out. It is not an adequate response.

When we revisit this matter, we must consider issues in respect of the Prison Service's board. People who sit on such boards have responsibilities. I hope to explore the issue during the next session. I will leave the matter there, as the committee will revert to it.

I will ask general questions on the Prison Service's performance. Last week, I received figures on the prisoner population. I was surprised, as the capacity figure for the main prison at Mountjoy Prison was 540. Is this accurate? Is the figure not 450?

Mr. Brian Purcell

The bed capacity at Mountjoy Prison stands at 540.

Was it recently increased?

Mr. Brian Purcell

At one stage, bed capacity was 480. In the context of other work, I referred to our re-opening and refurbishment of the A wing, which had been closed for some time. This provided more than 80 new spaces. The capacity figure includes bunk beds in cells to facilitate more than one prisoner. As the Deputy knows, we are not discussing single-cell accommodation, but the bed capacity stands at that figure. It will shortly increase due to the installation of additional bunk beds so that prisoners need not sleep on mattresses placed on the floor.

We are also examining the separation unit, as it is known in Mountjoy Prison. Closed in 2000 or 2001, it will be refurbished and re-opened to provide an additional 50-60 spaces.

As of last week, there were 271 prisoners over and above our prison capacity.

Mr. Brian Purcell

Does the Deputy mean in Mountjoy Prison?

No, I mean across the system. It has created significant tensions——

Mr. Brian Purcell

Yes.

——and pressures for staff, not to mention for prisoners. It has made managing the situation difficult. Given the overcrowding, what was the rationale for closing the prisons at Shanganagh, the Curragh and Spike Island?

Mr. Brian Purcell

That we are operating in excess of our capacity creates problems for myself as the head of the Prison Service and for those who must work within the system. For this reason, the current capital programme is in place and we are going down the route of——

That does not answer my question. Given the fact that our prisons are consistently overcrowded, why were three prisons closed?

Mr. Brian Purcell

The Deputy mentioned Shanganagh Castle. It held about 50 young prisoners in an open centre setting. It was originally built in the late 1960s when the prisoner population was vastly different to that which exists now or even that which existed three or four years ago when Shanganagh Castle closed. By the time it closed, we had an average of 20 to 25 prisoners in Shanganagh Castle. The system had moved on and Shanganagh Castle was not operationally efficient. That was the main reason it had to be closed. We had 20 prisoners in an open prison setting and the type of prisoner for which it was originally designed no longer existed in the numbers required to make it viable.

Mr. Purcell might need it now for some of these bankers who might be coming to stay with him.

Mr. Brian Purcell

I do not think any of them are in the age cohort suitable for Shanganagh Castle.

Mr. Seán Alyward

I was involved in the decision on Shanganagh Castle. The young people we sent constantly ran away and those at the lower end of the spectrum were being turned into runaways and fugitives. It was working badly and we had to close it. We were making young people worse by sending them there. It was a good decision.

We may talk about that in a few minutes. The point I make is that it does not make sense to close three prisons when we have a seriously overcrowded prison system. Of the current 3,882 prisoners in the system, approximately how many came from the District Court?

Mr. Brian Purcell

I will have to check this but perhaps the figure is between one third and a half. I do not have the figure off the top of my head.

For clarification on the other closures, Spike Island and the Curragh, one of the reasons for closing Spike Island was that we were re-opening a new wing in Limerick Prison that catered for the volume of prisoners left——

The prison still cannot cater for the demand.

Mr. Brian Purcell

I am trying to clarify the point. We closed the Curragh and opened a wing in the midlands prison that had never been open because we did not have the staff.

Perhaps this needed to be done also.

Mr. Brian Purcell

At the time that was sufficient for the prisoner population. This was four years ago.

I do not think Mr. Purcell can say that. The population in our prisons is only one aspect of the story. The number of people committing crimes on bail is a serious public concern. I recently received figures on the number of people on bail. Over the past five years the number of people on bail has doubled. Lest anyone think these people were involved in minor crimes, that is not the case. An area of concern to all of us is those who are involved in drug dealing. Five years ago, 250 people suspected of possession of drugs for sale and supply were granted bail. Last year that figure had increased to 885.

At constituency level we are all aware of the major problems caused at community level through people being seen as untouchable and plying their trade dealing drugs in local estates. The Garda Síochána seems helpless in dealing with them. When, as politicians, we ask what is happening with these people we are told they have been before the courts and were granted bail. That is an affront to people. Last year some 885 people were accused of possession of drugs for sale and supply and were granted bail. That is intolerable. Given the numbers on bail and the major increase that has taken place over the past five years I suggest that represents an utter failure to manage our prisoner population.

Mr. Brian Purcell

It must be pointed out that it is not the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform that grants bail, nor is it the Garda Síochána or anyone in this room. Bail is granted by our courts, the Judiciary, that have the case and the applicant before them. The Garda Síochána sets out its stall on why it believes bail should be denied. If reproof is required it should not be directed at this side of the table. We do not grant bail.

Why are our prisons full and why do we not have adequate accommodation? That is a question for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Why is there no other option in the cases of people involved in relatively minor offences before the District Court than a fine or prison sentence? Why is the Department not using options available in other countries, such as community service?

Mr. Brian Purcell

With the greatest respect, bail is not being granted because of a lack of accommodation. It is being granted because people apply for it and make a case to the Judiciary that they will be amenable to court. The two are not linked.

There is a great myth that there are thousands of people locked up for not paying fines. At unlock this morning the figure was 13. I asked that this be checked because I thought we might be asked.

I did not ask that.

Mr. Brian Purcell

There are many myths about who is in prison. When we examine those committed by the District Court to prison, they are repeat offenders who are persistent and cause much trouble in neighbourhoods. The public would be outraged if the District Court judge did not have the penal sanction to impose. We would have more grief in communities if the courts at District Court level did not have the right to lock people up.

The percentage of people in prison for serious offences involving violence, drugs, sex offences or similarly grave offences, who probably came through courts higher than a District Court, runs at 60% of the population. The balance tends to be repeat offenders who are a major social nuisance. They are put in prison for a good reason. In my experience, the Judiciary in the District Court is very careful in the use of the sanction and does not put people in prison for trivial reasons. On occasions there will be a tabloid headline about someone in prison for stealing a shirt but when one examines it one finds a serial offender and that many other offences were taken into account. There is much mythology about who is in prison. There is not a link between those accused of serious crimes getting bail and the population of the penal system. This is about the liberty of the subject and the sovereign right of the court to decide whether to allow liberty on bail on the basis that the accused will be made amenable for the crime and will not repeat the crime while awaiting trial. The call is made by judges.

It is based on legislation available to them.

Mr. Brian Purcell

Yes, based on constitutional changes promoted by the Department and this House. The matter is how the Judiciary interprets the legislation.

Does Mr. Purcell agree it is unacceptable that 30,000 people were out on bail last year, including 885 people accused of drug dealing?

Mr. Brian Purcell

In the aggregate I am disappointed that people accused of serious crimes were allowed to remain at liberty. I must be careful, we are working in a constitutional situation. In each individual case a High Court judge sat in judgment and had the facts in front of him or her. I do not have those facts and I must respect the Judiciary and the Constitution. I am constrained in making further comment.

A related question concerns juvenile crime. I do not agree with the comments of Mr. Purcell on the success of the Garda diversion programme. I represent a constituency where there is quite an amount of serious crime. Much of this arises from situations I have been aware of, where young people were involved in crime and the authorities did not do anything about it. Mr. Purcell referred to young people annoying their neighbours and engaging in anti-social activity. Those young people of ten years ago have gone on to be the drug dealers and hitmen of today.

There has been a serious failure to tackle the problem of juvenile crime. I am very involved in this at constituency level with senior gardaí and I know there is a very high level of frustration in the force about the failure to tackle juvenile crime. If one considers those in their late teens or early twenties who are involved in serious crime, on a regular basis they will have had 75, 80 or 100 charges against them before their 18th birthday. Nothing has been done about it. Those problems have been left to fester and we are now living with the result. This is a significant problem in particular areas of Dublin, Limerick and other cities because organised serious crime is involved. Communities are besieged by this kind of activity. I suggest this is because of a serious failure of the justice system which should have stepped in and ensured there was preventative justice and early intervention for young people likely to become involved in crime.

As Deputy, I spent many months debating the Children Act 2001 which was supposed to be ground-breaking legislation. It provided for a great number of sanctions to tackle the problem of juvenile crime, such as parental orders, the potential to arrest parents and other sanctions whereby parents were required to attend courses in parenting skills and so forth. Curfews were to be applied and there were to be other restrictions. I asked the Courts Service about the use of these sanctions and it appears they are not used at all by the courts. That is of serious concern because alternative sanctions are available to the courts.

Is there a problem with regard to the education of judges in our system concerning both juvenile and adult crime? Are judges not aware of the options open to them under existing legislation? These measures are not being used. Why is this the case? Is there a cultural issue with regard to the lack of awareness among our judges about the scale of misery and torment that many of these people cause in local communities? What is Mr. Aylward doing to ensure that the Judiciary is in touch with what is happening in our communities, and that it is aware of the legislative provisions available to it?

Mr. Seán Aylward

There may be a misunderstanding here. First, I was not lauding the success of the Garda programme. I said the Garda Commissioner and his people are seized by the issue and, from the top down, there is considerable interest in it. I did not claim success for it.

Second, when I became Secretary General of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, I made a promise to the interview board that I would try to put some shape on a few matters. One was juvenile justice because I felt at the time, in 2004, that we had a deficit and that there was a lack of cohesion in the system. My view was that responsibility was spread across too many Departments and there were some resource issues in the courts, the probation service and other areas.

Over the past four years, I have taken a personal interest, with the support of the three different Ministers I have served, and have tried to address matters. I am the first to say that there are communities still under siege because of this problem. We are not at all complacent about it. Block by block, we have been putting together what I believe are the bones of a solution to the problem. We are not there yet and I never claimed we were.

What have we done? The Deputy referred to the Children Act 2001. To make it work, resources had to be put behind it. Belatedly, those resources have been voted to us by the Oireachtas. Belatedly, we got agreement at Government level to create a single youth justice service, taking over responsibility from the Department of Education and Science. Belatedly, we have augmented the probation service by approximately 71 people and have also increased the resources of the District Court. The current President of the District Court, Judge Miriam Malone, has taken a particular interest in this matter, along with a group of other judges. Training has been put in place by the Judicial Studies Institute and last year we appointed six additional District Court judges to bring resources to the point where judges could specialise in dealing with children's courts. I believe we will have a different story to tell in the coming two or three years as these resources and initiatives start to bite, have a focus and begin to use the options available in the law.

I wish to make it clear that we are not yet there but we have started to put some shape on matters. The frustration of gardaí on the ground is palpable, and of communities living in neighbourhoods where children are running wild. It is real and I do not deny this. We are doing something about it and we very much emphasise community sanction as an alternative to the custody approach. It is striking. We now have charge of the four juvenile custody institutions and very low numbers are being committed to them by the courts. We are not on an imprisoning binge with regard to these troubled young people but are getting increasingly focused.

In the four years I have been Secretary General, we have increased from 64 to 100 the numbers of juvenile diversion schemes around the country and are now starting to focus on specific offending behaviours, times of misbehaviour and the lifestyles by which children are falling into risk and making life a misery for their friends and neighbours. I am not sure if the Deputy was present when I mentioned this earlier. We have a lot more to do in this area but the building blocks have been put in place over the past two or three years. We will continue to work on it. There is no complacency on my part, rather the reverse.

With all due respect, I suggest that the failure of the system to deal with juvenile crime over the past ten to 15 years has resulted in our having a major problem with serious crime in our communities, particularly gun and drugs crime. I have seen this happen as, I am sure, have many other Deputies. It started off with fairly minor problems at community level when teenagers were hanging around and causing trouble, and went from there until the behaviour became increasingly intimidating. A sense developed among many of these people that they were invincible and untouchable. The reality was that they were, because the authorities had no strategy to deal with the problem.

I suggest to Mr. Aylward there is no strategy in place yet. I still come across situations in my constituency as, I am sure, do many other people, where neighbourhoods and housing estates are plagued by the behaviour of a small number of young people. When one questions the gardaí it emerges that they have been active and have processed these cases. Frequently and repeatedly these cased are turned over to juvenile liaison officers. When somebody is shot or has shot another person in the community at the age of 21 or 22, one then discovers that this person has a string of offences as long as an arm, perhaps 100 offences, during recent years and nothing was done about it.

It is wrong that people's liberty and human rights are being denied at community level. That is what is happening. There are many parts of my constituency and in other parts of Dublin and other cities where people are afraid to get involved in a residents' association because of the intimidating climate created by people involved in crime in their communities. Those communities cannot function and the people who have to live there are being denied their liberty because of the failure of the justice system to deal with this problem.

Mr. Seán Aylward

It is a very emotional subject but I will focus on one of the assertions made by the Deputy. It is true that some of the most serious criminals are those who show a pattern of being out of control going back to childhood. They grow up in a dysfunctional household and are excluded from school at an early age. The whole pattern has been eloquently described by the Deputy.

Of the young tearaways, vandals and children who behave in an oppressive way in their communities, the proportion that turns to serious crime is minute. That does not reflect favourably on society but is merely a statistical fact. Spotting the young people who are the biggest risk and diverting them, where possible, is a great challenge for society. The problem goes beyond the judicial system and relates to issues such as the position of the family in society and whether children can, or should be, taken into care. There are many complex issues underpinning it. The Garda juvenile liaison scheme maintains data dating back to its foundation in the 1960s which show the number of children referred to the scheme and the number who subsequently re-offend. It is very striking. The re-offending rate of children referred to the JLO scheme, despite what the Deputy said, is very small. Its success rate is in excess of 80%.

There are still hundreds and hundreds of children for whom the scheme and the diversion programme do not work. We must improve matters and that is what we have resolved to do. The matter is now dealt with at a higher level politically and in the administration than ever before. The results have still to show this but there is now an unremitting focus on it which was not there in the past.

I do not know if that is the case. I do not see any evidence of it. I am fairly well involved in the kind of issues going on in my constituency. I am not aware of any evidence that anybody is on top of this issue and in many ways it is getting worse, given the level of gun crime we have seen in recent years. The Children Act 2001 was regarded as very progressive legislation and was debated at length in this House. Why are its provisions not being used by our courts?

Mr. Seán Aylward

If the Judiciary was represented here — I am very loath to speak for the Judiciary — it would say it needed more support from the probation service, more people to advise it on the options in certain cases and some training and that it was stretched. The District Court is very busy. In the past year or so we have put in six more judges. There have been 71 more probation officers brought into place to resource the system and give more effective alternative sanctions in such cases.

A great many of the children in the JLO system do not need to be brought to court. They make a full admission, the facts are accepted and they are put on a programme, which works for the vast majority of them. I will be the first to say we could and should have done better. Having responsibility scattered across the system did not work. We have yet to prove this will work but we have been putting the resources in at an unprecedented level in recent years and it takes time for results to show from that effort.

I am convinced, from sitting down with the President of the District Court, talking to the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science, Deputy Barry Andrews, and the people we have put in place to head up the youth justice service, that we are on the right track and that a difference will be felt. I acknowledge it is cold comfort to someone suffering in a neighbourhood tonight.

Mr. Seán Aylward

With respect to the Deputy, I will not yield that there is disinterest in the subject or that we are not focused on it at a high level. I assure the Chairman we are.

It is all very well to give the excuse of resources. There was no issue with resources over recent years. There is no excuse for adequate resources not being put in. There are various measures in the 2001 Act, such as parental supervision and ensuring parents take responsibility. The question of compensation orders where children have caused damage or recognisance being entered into by parents to ensure adequate control over a child, the imposition of a curfew and the possible arrest of the parents on the basis of the behaviour of their children are all very progressive approaches and provisions.

Why are they not being used? There may not necessarily be resource implications. Are judges not aware of the scale of the problem or the most recent legislation? Is Mr. Aylward prepared to give any undertaking he will take steps to ensure these provisions are notified to the Judiciary? From my contact with many gardaí who do tremendous work in my constituency, I know they go into court and look for curfews for young people who are out of control and they are not granted them. None of the other provisions are being used either. What is the problem?

Mr. Seán Aylward

I have to tread a very fine line here when I speak about the Judiciary. To suggest it is not aware of legislation would be a travesty.

Is there any way Mr. Aylward could find out why they are not using them?

Mr. Seán Aylward

Members of the legal profession and judges are aware of it. Every judge is sovereign in his or her own court. We all know that. The judge has the options and he or she exercises them to best of their ability. The judges said to us in the past, with some justification, that the courts needed the technical support of the probation service to advise them on the options and the suitability of parents to take responsibility. That argument was true until a few months ago.

I did not say we did not have resources, I said we put those resources in place belatedly. I did not offer it as an excuse. It was put to us here that we are throwing up excuses and citing a lack of resources. I am not doing that. Historically, there was a lack of resources to underpin that Act and we have put those resources in place. We have also brought together a youth justice service which did not exist before. No Government administration in the State ever tried to pull this together before.

With due respect, that is the 2001 Act. The situation regarding crime at community level has become immeasurably worse over the past eight years.

Mr. Seán Aylward

I do not want to argue about the data because we are talking about experiences which are not always recorded. The number of children sent into juvenile custody who are deemed to have offended to the point that they must be held in custody has plummeted. The courts do not have Deputy Shorthall's perspective because they are not putting people into custody in that age category.

Maybe they have realised there is not much point in doing that, given the record on it. Can Mr. Aylward give us some detail on the number of juveniles against whom charges were brought and over the past five years? I would like some idea of the profile of youth crime.

Mr. Seán Aylward

Such data have been held by the CSO in recent years. I will have to check. It is not in my brief, which is financial and administrative. I will endeavour to get the data in the coming days for the committee and will remit them through the Chair.

What is the nature of the delegation's link with the court services?

Mr. Seán Aylward

We are the resource provider and help to broker with the Department of Finance, our collective paymasters, the level of resources given every year. A court board is chaired by the Chief Justice and it reflects the constitutional divide and the independence of the Judiciary as another arm of Government.

What about the efficiency of the service?

Mr. Seán Aylward

We are in regular and very close touch with the Judiciary and the courts service, but never on individual cases.

What about the workings of the service itself?

Mr. Seán Aylward

The CEO is the Accounting Officer of the courts and accounts to this committee and the Oireachtas for his stewardship. Because of the impact of what courts do on the wider system, we take a major interest in it. It is a delicate line. I have repeated the point but people will understand I must be careful not to make suggestions about the efficiency of judges. One person's efficiency is another person's injustice. In open court the judge is God. He or she calls it as he or she sees it.

When we saw an increase in Supreme Court judges from five to nine did we see a resulting increase in productivity?

Mr. Seán Aylward

The volume of business dealt with by the Supreme Court——

Are they all working at the one time?

Mr. Seán Aylward

They sit on separate panels and support the Court of Criminal Appeal. They are dealing with a volume of business which is out of all proportion. I can vouch for their productivity in one area alone, which is the number of immigration cases they have to take. They have had to take a staggering amount of cases on appeal from the High Court.

I do not wish to sound patronising about the Judiciary. It is very hardworking group of people and is at full stretch, including our colleagues in the Supreme Court.

There is a criticism of the Oireachtas and the holidays it takes during the summer, Christmas and Easter. There are four sessions in the courts. There are breaks for two or three months in the summer, for a month at Christmas and Easter and the Whitsun break. Is there a question mark over the maximum use of the courts?

Mr. Seán Aylward

Just as the Oireachtas sits in committee when it is allegedly closed down, the judges are at home or in their offices writing up complex decisions, sometimes in major cases. The number of days that the courts are in session is no guide to the level of productivity of the individual judges, particularly in the superior courts where they often have to make monumental decisions which are parsed and analysed by highly paid legal teams. There is a misunderstanding about judicial holidays just as the holidays in this arm of the Legislature are misrepresented as people sitting in deckchairs. That is not the case.

If Mr. Aylward says that juvenile crime is a priority for him it must be a matter of concern that the Judiciary is not using the most modern legislation available.

Could the Department not use the outcome of the crime rates of recent years, particularly the homicide rate, as a reflection on the total failure to deal with youth crime eight or ten years previously? Is there not, unfortunately, a relationship between young tearaways and the issues raised by my colleague? The officials might not have had an opportunity to listen to the great Joe Duffy on whose radio show a few days ago a victim from Tipperary town spoke at length about how it feels to be under incredible siege for maybe six years, day and night. It was one of the most eloquent testimonies to the type of behaviour that makes life desperate for several thousand citizens. I represent several of those cases.

Is there not a problem down the line if the Department fails now? I concede that it is trying to turn the ship around and focus on youth justice. A few years later the 20% who do not mind being subject to JLOs perhaps go on to be the people involved in homicide with all that entails in drug-related crime and so on.

Mr. Seán Aylward

We cannot point a finger at any one element in the system. For four years I sat on what is now the Parole Board and interviewed scores of prisoners serving for the gravest crimes in the criminal index. In examining their cases we would go back to their childhood to find what reports existed on them. In a percentage of cases the homicide was a one-off event. Many of the other serious criminals had a background reaching back to childhood but had been the subject of multiple interventions, from school inspectors and JLOs, to borstal and various custodial options. The system had used every single option then available. Sometimes, for some people, nothing works. We need to be realistic. Intervention does not work every time.

With all due respect, I am asking——

The Deputy should allow Mr. Aylward to finish speaking.

He is talking about cases where all options were used.

We are straying into policy and I have been very lenient.

I want to go back to my original question.

We are talking about cost benefit. We know that much of the high rate of serious crime has its origin in the failure of the youth justice system. That is why my colleague and I are focusing on this. The ultimate cost is borne by the victims of those people.

Mr. Aylward talked about situations where all options were used but I am talking about the failure by the Judiciary to use modern options, such as the 2001 Act. Is Mr. Aylward concerned about that failure? Is it within his remit to take steps to ensure that the Judiciary operates the legislation?

Mr. Seán Aylward

I have been concerned. I have been in a position to intervene or make suggestions only since 2004 when I moved from the prison system to my present job. I studied this to see what was the impediment to the use of the alternative sanctions, such as curfews and imposing parental responsibilities. In many cases the children before the courts were from troubled families but different judges sat in those courts and were not building up a block of experience as to what might work or be tried because the system was under a great deal of pressure. The District Court deals with a staggering volume of business. The District Court judges would not forgive me if I did not point out that their breaks from sittings are very limited. They break only for the month of August and hold special sittings even then.

I found that there was too high a turnover in the Children Court and judges would put cases back for reports which it would take too long to deliver and the child coming before the court for a final adjudication would not even remember the crime or offence for which he or she was brought before the court. To telescope this, we asked the President of the District Court what would work to bring more focus to the problem and build up a block of experience. Nobody wants to spend his or her life in the Children Court but people said they were willing to give it a reasonable stint to build up experience in application of all the options in the criminal code if there were resources to do that. We secured ministerial and Government approval to augment their numbers. We have put those judges in place and they have been trained. We will see results from this.

There was also a problem with putting children under probation supervision when there were too few specialised probation officers. In the past year 71 extra people have been brought in to deal with that problem. These are practical measures. I cannot say whether they will work but we are trying to tackle the problems the Deputies raise.

The Secretary General is in a unique position. Was he the first head of the Irish Prison Service?

Mr. Seán Aylward

I was.

Mr. Aylward has a unique CV. I thank him and all the officials for their presentations.

I wish to correct a remark I made earlier when I referred to somebody being murdered in prison. I should have said that the person was allegedly murdered in prison.

I thank the witnesses who gave us as many responses as they could today.

Mr. John Buckley

The two things in the report in chapters 6.1 and 6.2 were simply exemplars. The big issue is what can we learn at the system wide level. In regard to extended payment of travel expenses, the Revenue Commissioners have been visiting Departments and emphasising the need to comply with tax law in respect of benefit in kind and so on. We follow up on tax compliance issues such as tax clearance certificates and benefit in kind.

In regard to the procedures for dealing with procurement, since a delegation has gone to each Departments the best driver for compliance would be to use the statement of internal financial control which the Accounting Officer signs when he adopts the appropriation account, to get assurance from internal audits and from heads of Department that there is compliance with the system and to drive those behaviours from the top.

Leaving those two system-wide comments aside, normally, we do not signal what is in our report going forward but the head of the Irish Prison Service mentioned that we are doing some work for the purpose of our annual report on procurement in the construction area and the use of framework agreements and so on. We are slightly gazumped on this issue now in the sense that perhaps more information will come to the committee supplied by the Irish Prison Service. I will have to make a judgment on whether it is worth proceeding with that after the committee gets that information. Perhaps it will be enough to dispose of the issue and give the committee assurance. However, we can pick up on that issue after the committee has got the information. I have nothing more to add.

We agreed earlier that we would not note Votes 19 or 21 or chapters 6.1 or 6.2. We will await responses to the questions raised by the committee on numerous fronts. I hope we will get that information in a matter of days.

Mr. Seán Aylward

We will get it to the committee as quickly as we can. Is there any query on Vote 19, on which we have to come back?

It might be better to allow the committee flexibility in dealing with issues which may arise and that we would not note any of the Votes at the moment.

Mr. Seán Aylward

I understand.

Is there any other business? We must agree to the meeting on 2 April which is the special report by the Comptroller and Auditor General on the accountability of North-South bodies for the years 1999 to 2007, that is, Tourism Ireland Limited, Fáilte Ireland, Waterways Ireland and the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland.

The witnesses withdrew.

The committee adjourned at 1.55 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 2 April 2009.
Top
Share