COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 19 Nov 2009

Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse.

Ms Brigid McManus (Secretary General, Department of Education and Science) called and examined.

Chairman

Today we are considering special report No. 67 of the Comptroller and Auditor General which deals with the supervision and substitution scheme, the fulfilment of employment contracts and the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse. I draw everyone's attention to the fact that while members of the committee enjoy absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee, which cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. They are also reminded of the provision in Standing Order 158 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policy or policies.

I welcome Ms McManus, Secretary General of the Department of Education and Science, and invite her to introduce her officials.

Ms Brigid McManus

I am accompanied by the following: Mr. Ciarán Ó Catháin, president, Athlone Institute of Technology; Mr. Kevin McCarthy, assistant secretary in the Department of Education and Science who deals with higher education issues; Mr. Peter Baldwin, assistant secretary, whose areas of responsibility include the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse; Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú, whose areas of responsibility include supervision and substitution; Mr. Pádraig Maloney from our payroll division; Mr. John Kelly and Ms Nuala Hynes from the redress division; and Mr. Éamon Moran and Ms Bláithín Dowling from the finance unit.

Chairman

I ask the officials from the Department of Finance to introduce themselves.

Mr. David Denny

I am accompanied by Mr. Brendan Ellison from the sectoral policy division and Ms Mairéad Emerson from the administrative budget section.

Chairman

I now ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to comment on special report No. 67.

Mr. John Buckley

The special report being considered deals with three subjects: the operation of the supervision and substitution scheme in post-primary schools; the arrangements for monitoring the terms of employment of lecturers in the institutes of technology; and the cost and timescale of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse. The motivation for reporting on these issues was to give some feedback that might be useful to the Department in its overall management of the sector. Seven second level schools voluntarily co-operated in the examination of the supervision and substitution scheme. A theme running through each report is the desirability of having better management information and, based on this, greater measurability of services.

In the case of the supervision and substitution scheme which cost €35 million for the voluntary, community and comprehensive school sector in 2007-08 and which we estimate costs something over €50 million for all second level schools, the examination found that, while recognising that there is of necessity an element of on-call cover encompassed by the scheme, the full amount of payments to teachers was not applied to actual supervision or substitution. Also, some grants paid to schools in lieu of non-participating teachers were not fully applied and unspent amounts were on hand at the time of the review. The Accounting Officer has informed me that these matters will be considered as part of a review under way.

The report on employment contracts in the institutes of technology suggests greater monitoring and control of the delivery on the time commitment of lecturers are necessary. A report drawn up following discovery that a full-time lecturer in an institute of technology was also lecturing in a university raised wider concerns about delivery on the time commitment of lecturers. The report noted that a proportion of lecturers believed their time commitment was exhausted after 16 hours contact time. It drew particular attention to the need to monitor contract fulfilment generally, provide for the approval and monitoring of off-campus research and external work and monitor timetabling and contract hours. The Accounting Officer has informed me that the relevant contracts will be examined through the industrial relations fora and will take account of the totality of service envisaged, including teaching, research, learner support, supervision of postgraduates, course development, committee work and administration. She has also noted that the question of effectiveness in the use of existing resources is being addressed in the context of a new strategy for higher education.

The report on the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse reviews the factors that gave rise to its extended timescale of over ten years and attempts to estimate the likely final cost. With regard to costs, it can be said with reasonable certainty that, excluding third party costs which are not yet settled and the cost of litigation not yet met, by April this year over €77 million had either been paid out or would accrue in costs up to the projected finalisation of affairs in 2010. To this must be added the accrued costs of outstanding third party claims and discovery, as well as any remaining costs of State respondents.

Third party costs are particularly difficult to estimate, due to the variability of the cases, the lack of management information categorising potential claimants, the fact that respondents include both individuals and institutions and the fact that precedents have not yet crystallised. Based on information at the point of our report, our best estimate was that the all-in cost would be of the order of €126 million to €136 million, with some of our projections suggesting that it would be at the lower end of that range.

Overall, the lessons from the inquiry appear to be that more thought needs to given to putting systems in place to estimate timescale and cost at inception. A two-year timescale with a cost of €1.9 million to €2.5 million has proved to be very wide of the mark.

In order to underpin estimation, routines and processes involved in the planing, execution and reporting phases of the inquiries should be mapped and agreed with the funding Department. At the inquiry level, structures and management information systems should be aligned with those routines and processes.

Emphasis should be placed from the beginning on electronic capture of characteristics of cases that would allow for some prediction of cost as it proceeds.

Chairman

I thank the Comptroller and Auditor General. I invite the Secretary General, Ms McManus, to make an opening statement.

Ms Brigid McManus

I thank the committee for the opportunity to make an opening statement on the Comptroller and Auditor General's special report.

Chapter 1 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report reviewed the operation of the supervision and substitution scheme in second-level schools. This scheme is one element in school substitution arrangements. While the report recognised the value of the arrangements to utilise existing teaching resources in supervision and substitution and the practical difficulty of matching the committed hours against short-term school needs, it nevertheless identified issues relating to the operation of the scheme dealing with the usage of the 37 hours commitment of a teacher and the grant funds paid. It concluded there appeared to be some scope to refine the operation of the scheme to improve the value obtained for the State's outlay.

The report reviewed the operation of the scheme in respect of the 2007-08 school year. In the meantime, as a result of changes arising from the October 2008 budget and introduced with effect from January 2009, the direct availability of substitution cover for teacher absences arising from uncertified sick leave and official school business was removed and each post-primary school was provided with defined number of hours of substitution cover, outside of the supervision and substitution scheme, to provide cover for teacher absences arising for those reasons. The introduction of this arrangement encourages a more effective use of the supervision and substitution scheme.

The Comptroller and Auditor General's report highlighted a number of aspects of practice in some schools which was not in line with the provisions set out in the Department's circulars. The relevant provisions of the Department's circulars have been drawn to the attention of schools following publication of the report. This has reminded schools of their responsibilities with regard to matching the available hours with demand for supervision and substitution; the accrual of contract rights for external staff; and the teaching role of teachers when substituting.

New arrangements have also been introduced with regard to the payment of the grant and the treatment of any balances outstanding at the end of the year.

At the time of the introduction of the arrangements last January, it was agreed that a review of the supervision-substitution scheme and related matters would take place. The interim outcome of the review has concluded with agreement to continue with the availability of the defined number of hours of substitution cover outside of the supervision and substitution scheme for uncertified sick leave and official school business for the 2009-10 school year and the review is continuing over the school year 2009-10, with a view to examining implementation of the revised arrangements in a full year and the issues arising. The reason for this interim review and the decision to continue it was because the new arrangements were introduced from January 2009, which is a partial school year. We consider these measures are addressing issues arising from the report and the Department will keep the situation under review.

Chapter 2 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report reviewed issues arising from a case where a lecturer in Athlone Institute of Technology was also holding a full-time post in NUI Galway. The report concludes there is a need for greater transparency regarding delivery of services in the contracts for lecturers in institutes of technology. The Comptroller and Auditor General also identified the need to review the extent to which the recommendations of the independent review commissioned by Athlone Institute of Technology are being more widely implemented across the sector.

Under the provisions of Towards 2016, it was agreed that current academic contracts in the institutes of technology sector would be examined to take account of the totality of the service to be provided in terms of teaching, research, learner support, supervision of postgraduates, course development, committee work and administration. In light of the changed economic circumstances, it was agreed in November 2008 that this review would focus in the short term on agreeing measures to achieve significant cost economies. If agreement was not reached, both parties agreed to enter third party facilitation under the auspices of the Labour Relations Commission.

Proposals from management to address the issue of achieving significant cost economies with regard to the review of the academic contract were put to the staff side at the institute of technology forum earlier this year. No agreement was reached. The matter has now been referred for facilitation under the auspices of the Labour Relations Commission.

At the Department's request, the Higher Education Authority circulated the report of the independent review to the presidents of all third level higher education institutions and has drawn their attention to the recommendations of the review. In doing so, the HEA reminded institutions that as employers they have the primary responsibility for ensuring staff employed by them adhere to the terms and conditions of their contracts of employment. This includes the practice whereby academic staff pursue external work. The HEA also sought details of procedures currently in place whereby staff undertake external work. Based on the responses received, it is understood that all institutions have in place, or are in the process of putting in place, a policy or procedure with regard to the practice of staff undertaking external work. This would commonly take the form of a specific clause in a staff member's contract requiring the prior written consent of the institution before he or she may engage in any external work. In some institutions this requirement is outlined in a formal policy of the institution.

The implementation of the findings of the independent review is part of an ongoing process whereby the HEA is engaging with higher education institutions to strengthen accountability and governance procedures. The HEA, along with the institutions, is committed to ensuring that such procedures demonstrate the responsibility of employees and employers in higher education institutions and in so doing ensure the accountability of the higher education system in Ireland as a whole.

At the Minister's request the HEA is also engaged in a process with the institutes of technology and the universities to identify the scope for increased efficiencies through, for example, the development of shared services and procurement arrangements. The effectiveness of use of existing resources across the higher education sector generally is also being addressed by the strategy review group on higher education which is expected to complete its work early next year.

Chapter 3 of the report relating to the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse focuses on the timeframe and cost of the commission's investigation. The report acknowledges that "the work carried out by the Commission was both necessary and valuable". It is true that this inquiry has taken longer than originally anticipated and will cost more than originally estimated. However, this must be viewed in the context of the nature and subject matter of the inquiry. It was unique in many respects and there was no solid basis from which to estimate with any degree of accuracy the likely costs or the timeframe involved. As the inquiry progressed, various factors contributed to sizeable delays, such as the numbers applying to the commission, various legal challenges and judicial reviews. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report outlines these issues. In terms of the operation of the commission, while funding is channelled through the Department of Education and Science, the commission is independent in its functioning. The findings of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report highlight certain inadequacies from which lessons can be learned in providing a template for any future inquiries of this scale.

The commission's report, which was published on 20 May 2009, consists of five volumes comprising some 2,500 pages. It is a major and significant piece of work and has had a huge impact. I wish to acknowledge the work of the commission under its chairperson, Mr. Justice Seán Ryan, and his predecessor, Ms Justice Mary Laffoy, for the immense contribution represented by this work. As the committee is aware, the recommendations of the commission's report have been accepted by the Government and an implementation plan was published on 28 July. While the commission's report has been completed, work is continuing on processing third party legal cost claims and other issues related to the winding-up of the commission. It is expected this work will be completed by the end of next year.

I am happy to respond to questions from members.

Chairman

I thank the Secretary General and I ask for permission to publish her statement. The statement will be published. I propose to begin with taking questions on the section dealing with the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I welcome Ms McManus and her colleagues and I thank her for her opening statement. I will confine my questioning to the issue of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse. The report of the commission was welcomed by all sides and in many ways it was a seminal report. The work carried out by the commission was recognised as being very valuable and it has made a significant contribution to the work of dealing with such a legacy of child abuse.

The responsibility of the Committee of Public Accounts is to look behind that report, examine the costs to the State and the reason for those costs and to attempt to draw lessons for the future. In that regard, it is important to acknowledge that the estimated timescale for this commission was to be two years and an early estimated cost was approximately €2 million to €2.5 million. As we know, it is likely to last in excess of ten years and cost approximately €130 million. Clearly the time and cost estimates were completely out of line. Why did the Department get it so wrong on both fronts?

Ms Brigid McManus

It is probably fair to say it was envisaged that one would be able to do a much simpler process than turned out to be the case. I think it was probably envisaged that there would be fewer witnesses, that one would not have had the issues of legal representation that arose and effectively the level of, probably, each individual hearing turning a bit into a mini court hearing, if I can call it that, though it would not have been quite on the scale of a court. I think it is probably fair to say that, indeed as is outlined in the report, at a certain point in the work the original legislation and how the commission was supposed to proceed was seen to be involving far more work and process than had been originally envisaged. There was a review, which then, if one likes, brought the procedures envisaged back into a different space — a more limited space. It may mirror some of what happened in other tribunals where it was probably envisaged the process would be shorter and less costly. I think if one was doing it now, one might have a much better estimate. Indeed it was even in a completely different area of what a tribunal or a commission of inquiry like this might involve.

I think there were other issues that perhaps might not have been foreseen that caused delays, such as some of the judicial review challenges, etc. The fundamental reason for underestimating it was perhaps underestimating the scale of what was being embarked on in terms of the process and the commission to inquire into child abuse.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

That underestimation did not only apply to the commission. There was an enormous underestimation for the redress board, where the initial costs suggested were €250 million and it ended up costing in excess of €1 billion. However, in this case the costs were underestimated by a factor of more than 60. Was the problem that the Department not realise the extent of the numbers people who had been abused?

Ms Brigid McManus

Clearly, one of the reasons for embarking on a commission on child abuse was to investigate what had been the problem and what was its scale. In a sense, one was already embarking on something that was an unknown quantity, that the investigation was being set up to establish the scale of what might be involved. There was probably an underestimate of both the scale and how many complainants might wish to give evidence. There were two elements. There was an element of the scale of what happened and then the scale of the likely uptake of an invitation to appear before the commission. I have to say this is retrospective because I would not have been involved at the time, but I think perhaps there was a sense that what we were embarking on — a commission — was a simpler process than letting things go through court cases and a way of trying to establish a scale by people coming in and telling their story and finding out what the scale was. Perhaps there was not a full recognition that once one embarks on a commission of inquiry, one ends up in a more legal investigative process than perhaps we had estimated originally.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

In the event, only a small fraction of the victims got to appear before the investigation committee. That is a very sore point for many people. By right, if people had been given an opportunity to voice their allegations before that committee, it could have run on much longer.

Ms Brigid McManus

In fairness, when it became clear that when Ms Justice Laffoy estimated the length of time it was going to take to do it under the original process, that is the stage at which two processes were put in place: the confidential committee, which allowed everybody to tell their story; and the investigation committee, which concentrated on trying to take a sample approach to establishing the investigation part of what was the scale of the abuse. In fairness, while I know it is an issue of concern to many of the former residents that everybody did not get a chance to go before the investigation committee, at the time the review was undertaken there were considerable meetings between the then Minister and the Department with representatives of the groups. I think all of them were ad idem that they would not want a process to have continued for as long as it would have continued if everybody was giving evidence. At the time there was a choice, if one likes, between a very long process and, given the age of the victims, a process in which there would have been problems for everybody appearing anyway and cutting it back to a sample position. So while it was a balance of what was the best thing to do, in fairness the groups representing the former residents preferred that option than the option of having it drag on even longer.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

It is important to note that many people did not get the opportunity to come before committee and that was a matter of great disappointment for them. The bottom line was that none of the perpetrators of abuse was named. Given the length of time the commission sat and the costs involved, it is a matter of grave disappointment that at the end of the day not a single perpetrator was named.

Ms Brigid McManus

In terms of the naming of the perpetrators, there was a case, as the Comptroller and Auditor General's report outlines, which was taken by the Christian Brothers, in the High Court and it was appealed. The commission itself — the commission was independent in its functions in this — made a decision that it would not name the perpetrators in order to allow the work to continue. That was a decision taken by the independent commission. It was taken in the particular context of a legal challenge. While it may be a matter of concern that the individuals were not named, I still think — it is something all sides of the House have acknowledged — the report itself in identifying what happened even if it could not name the individuals has been a very valuable exercise.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I would like to move on to the specific costs involved, first, on administration. How many staff are employed in the commission?

Ms Brigid McManus

There are 16 people, but that would include the judge and some of the commission members who are not paid but who are on call, if one likes, for part-time work for particular decisions as the wind-down consists and a couple of part-time people.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Can Ms McManus circulate those details to us?

Ms Brigid McManus

Certainly, no problem.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

When does Ms McManus expect the work of the commission to be wound up completely?

Ms Brigid McManus

The chairperson has advised us that he expects to complete the work by the end of 2010. There was a considerable amount of work even this year involved in issues arising from the publication of the report. For example, there are versions of the report being produced for the deaf community and the visually impaired. There are quite a lot of queries coming to the commission. There is the work on the costs and on cataloguing the records and then more minor administrative matters in terms of a wind-down.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

How many of the staff who continue to be employed are legal staff?

Ms Brigid McManus

There are no legal staff. I think all the staff left are administrative staff, other than, obviously, the judge and the legal people who are still on call — the judge and the members of the commission who are still on call.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Ms McManus referred to the legal people still on call. What is the arrangement there?

Ms Brigid McManus

Some of the members of the commission are legal people. The judge — the chairperson — indicated that they would not be needed on a full-time basis but would be needed to make decisions at certain times and would be paid under a per diem arrangement. The judge was still a judge while the others, as members of the commission, would have been paid at the assistant secretary rate. The arrangement is that they would be paid a per diem based on them coming back to do some work. Obviously, there will be decisions on the records and so on to be made by the formal commission. If one is talking about the legal counsel for the commission, there are none of those.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Before we move on to third party legal costs, I have a question about the part of the commission's work involving the vaccine trials and the €1 million in non-effective expenditure which was incurred. Who decided to give that body of work to the commission?

Ms Brigid McManus

To the best of my knowledge, it was a Government decision at the time. I can double check that for the Deputy but my understanding is it was part of the Government decision on the establishment of the body.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Was advice taken from the Department or commission?

Ms Brigid McManus

It was a Government decision. I assume the Department would have been involved in giving observations on the proposals at the time but I can check that for the Deputy. The Department of Health and Children would have been the lead Department. I believe, however, that it was our legislation so we would have been involved. However, the Department of Health and Children would have been the lead Department. On the Deputy's question as to whether our Department was involved in the decision, as it was our legislation, we would have been involved in the decision but I am not sure about the precise involvement. The Department of Health and Children was the lead——

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Given the substantial amount of money involved, who was responsible for the fact that this amount of money was essentially wasted by the commission? Was advice not given that the commission was not the appropriate place to deal with the issue?

Ms Brigid McManus

I think at the time the Government took the decision it believed it would be possible to have the commission investigate the matter. It was only in view of the legal challenges that a problem arose. It can happen that one believes something can be pursued and legal challenges are taken against it. I think the Government would have considered at the time it took the decision that it would be possible for that work to be undertaken by the commission. There were two legal challenges and the work had to be altered in light of them. That can happen in lots of areas.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Are legal costs outstanding in relation to the vaccine trials?

Ms Brigid McManus

Not to my knowledge. The third party costs have all been settled in respect of the vaccine trials.

Chairman

I believe Deputy Shortall is asking on what basis the Government decision to refer the matter to the commission was made. The Department must have had strong legal advice that it was possible to do so. In hindsight, this legal advice was highly defective. Is that not correct?

Ms Brigid McManus

Certainly the Attorney General would have been involved as part of the Government decision to refer the matter to the commission. It would have seemed in line with the commission's work because it related to residents of the institutions. The vaccine trials were carried out in relation to the same group of children, if one likes, who were being looked at by the rest of the commission investigation so it would have a seemed a logical enough place to do it. The decision at the time would have been taken by the Government and the Attorney General's office and Departments would have been involved.

On the specific question as to whether the possibility that legal challenges would be taken was addressed, it is fair to say that in both the more general aspects of the commission's work and in the work of other tribunals, we were in somewhat uncharted territory. There were legal challenges to some of the main commission work. These were not such that they stopped the work completely, which the vaccine trials did, but there were other legal challenges to the commission's work that required a change in how the commission was proceeding. I suppose that is in the nature——

Chairman

Deputy Shortall's question was on the vaccine trials and the decision to proceed based on legal advice. May we see the relevant papers?

Ms Brigid McManus

I am assuming, given that the Office of the Attorney General was involved in the matter, that legal advice was given. We can check exactly what the papers are. There are issues then about the release of legal advice.

Chairman

Who took the legal cases to have the investigation stopped?

Ms Brigid McManus

They were both taken by professors who were under investigation. I can get the committee the names of the two individuals.

Chairman

We should have them.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I will move on to third party costs. It is suggested in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General that the commission's costs were slightly higher than the costs of other tribunals. Is that the case and, if so, why were they higher?

Ms Brigid McManus

I think the reference in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report is to the initial rates set for the counsel. At the time the commission was established, these rates were about 10% higher than those for senior and junior counsel in the other tribunals. The rates were agreed at the time on the basis that there had been inflation since the other tribunals. A case was made through Ms Justice Laffoy that the appropriate rate was 10% higher because of legal rates at the time. The rates then fell behind and were due to be reviewed after two years. They were not reviewed and, therefore, fell behind. As a result, they were lower than for the other tribunals for a period and were brought into line with the rates for the other tribunals at a later stage.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Overall, I do not get a sense from the report that the Department was actively working to control the costs involved. It would be easy to get the impression, although it may be wrong, that a blank cheque was written for the commission and it was basically left up to the legal eagles to sort out the costs without too many restrictions being imposed. What role did the Department have in ensuring that we were getting value for money and costs would be kept under control?

Ms Brigid McManus

I should first state that the Department is the funding body for the commission, which is independent in the operation of its functions, but is, if one likes, investigating the Department, among others. Even though historically there would have been nobody in the Department at senior level who would have been there in the period under investigation, the relationship with the commission is somewhat different perhaps than the relationship with direct programmes we are running ourselves.

That said, the rates that were paid were all agreed by the Attorney General, the Department and the Department of Finance. For example, rates of pay were required to be controlled. One of the reasons for the review that was undertaken because of the time and cost of the commission — its terms of reference and mode of operation were changed — was that it was very much driven by the Department and Minister at the time in terms that the commission's work would go on too long and cost too much. In that sense, there was a review undertaken — in fact two reviews were undertaken — and changes were made to how the commission operated.

In my time, issues included, for example, the 8% reduction on which we engaged with the commission and the scale of the wind-down of staff. In that sense, it is not true that we said, "There you go, spend whatever you like". There is, however, no doubt that once one embarks on a process, there are costs involved in that process that may be difficult to estimate and that one has to be conscious that if one were to try to stop something at a certain point, one would not be fulfilling its mandate.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

At the time the report came out, less than €16 million of the estimated €70 million in third party costs had been paid. What is the current estimate on the total for third party costs?

Ms Brigid McManus

Just under €1 million has been processed on third party costs since then, and the estimate for the remaining third party costs is of the order of €30 million to €40 million.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Which is it? There is a wide range between €30 million and €40 million.

Ms Brigid McManus

There is a wide range because some cases are under negotiation. It depends on the outcome of the negotiations. Some of the costs will have to be referred to the Taxing Master. In a number of cases respondents have not yet presented their bills. We do not disagree with the range offered by the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Is it the case that since the report was published only a further €1 million has been processed giving a total of €17 million that has been paid already?

Ms Brigid McManus

Yes.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

The report is critical of the fact that there was not an adequate information base for managing the financial estimation. Does Ms McManus accept that criticism?

Ms Brigid McManus

Two issues arise. The Comptroller and Auditor General raised the issue of the database that was put into the commission. It was put in for a different reason, namely, to get a profile of witness appearances. It has a secondary purpose of allowing it to be used as part of the process of negotiation on costs. The kind of issues that have to be checked relate to the complexity of the case for each individual solicitor, what appearances would have been involved and what level of representation of the witness was involved. In that sense the database is used for that purpose but it was not primarily installed as a database for forecasting estimates.

To be honest, the difficulty with the estimation process is that the scale of third party costs is quite difficult to estimate anyway, no matter what IT system is in place. On any particular issue there is a facility for individual members of an order to be represented. A number of complainants might want representation in the case of a number of individual respondents. The order itself was allowed representation. In addition, a number of complainants used more than one legal team. For example, the final solicitor who represented them might not have been the first solicitor. Because it was not possible to agree a scheme of costs, they are then dependent ultimately on the Taxing Master for the system of negotiation before that. Estimation would always have been a problem no matter how one tried to capture it. That said, I accept that the systems were not put in place at the beginning to outline what kind of costs would arise and how we would track them.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Why was that?

Ms Brigid McManus

At the time, the process of work of the commission changed quite a bit. Initially, for example, there was an assumption that there would have been a scheme of costs. Three or four schemes of cost were negotiated. Then it ended up in a different space. The work of the commission changed. It was generally a learning experience. I am not sure whether fundamentally we would have been in any better position to estimate the remaining costs. Generally, in terms of management of the costs, the legal cost accountant and the negotiations, allowing for the fact that ultimately people can go to the Taxing Master, has managed to get a fair reduction on the bills.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

But it turned out to be an expensive learning experience. It is a matter of concern that the Department seems to have had quite a hands-off approach to the costs that were likely to be incurred by the commission.

Ms Brigid McManus

I do not necessarily accept there were any extra costs because of not having the systems in place. The issue is whether the Government, had it known at the time it started the commission that it could end up costing it €100 million, would have embarked on a commission. There was not sufficient information for the original estimation to take the decision that was taken, but once one allows people in the process legal representation one is then into third party costs under people's rights and due process. Having different information systems would not have made any difference to the ultimate cost. There have not been extra costs because of that, but perhaps at the very beginning had one realised the scale of what was involved, there would have been an ability to estimate better what the ultimate costs would be. Whatever information systems we had, I do not think we would have been in a position to say that the precise level of third party costs would be X amount because that negotiation has to take place.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Does Ms McManus accept that the system that was in place where witnesses did not apply for representation before appearing before the investigation committee, and where the issue of costs only arose when the bills were being settled, could be improved upon in any further investigation? Was it a mistake to allow that system to operate? Should the decision have been made on the awarding of costs at the time when the person applied to appear before the investigation committee?

Ms Brigid McManus

General lessons can be learned from the operation of this inquiry and the tribunals and they are being reflected in the new legislation. In terms of application, there was no requirement in the legislation that people would apply in advance. The way the commission is operating — it was clear from Judge Laffoy's scheme of operation — was that people would be allowed one barrister and one solicitor unless they applied in advance otherwise. I am not sure that in any of the cases, even if there had been application in advance, there would have been any difference in that regard. The costs are being negotiated on the basis of one barrister and one solicitor for each of the people entitled to them. I am not sure that even if people had applied in advance for representation, one would have been awarding less than a barrister and a solicitor to anyone. In that sense, I am not sure whether the application in advance would have saved any money.

If the Deputy was to ask me in general what I would do if I were establishing a commission again, I believe it would be desirable to have the issue of the awarding of costs determined at the outset, but given that what is being allowed here is a barrister and a solicitor, I suspect that even if applications were made in advance that is what would have been given to the people to whom we are now paying third party costs.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Ms McManus mentioned the question of the 8% reduction in professional fees that was decided by the Government in the previous budget. Is that being applied to all of the costs involved in the commission?

Ms Brigid McManus

It was being applied to the people employed by the commission at the time. It applied to the contracts for counsel, legal people and the legal cost accountant.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Is it being applied retrospectively?

Ms Brigid McManus

No, it would have applied from the date of the Government decision to the part of the contract that applied from then on. For example, the legal cost accountant is still working and the rate has been reduced by 8%.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Was there a suggestion that it should be applied retrospectively?

Ms Brigid McManus

The issue that arose was whether one could apply it retrospectively to contracts that had already been agreed, in other words, if one had already agreed a contract that said one would pay someone X amount of money. That has been an issue for us, for example, in our building contracts and with specialist contractors. The issue was that if one had already awarded the contract with a certain rate whether one could renegotiate the contract for the remaining period of the contract.

We have taken a view that even if the contract was already in place we would try to ensure the 8% reduction was achieved for the period from the date of the decision onwards. Whether that can be enforced in all cases depends on the terms of the contract. This is a more general point about the remaining areas where we employ contractors. In some cases one might have to terminate a contract, or threaten to do so, but it was more to do with the fact of whether a legal agreement was already in place that one could not revisit it rather than that we were seeking that the 8% would be applied retrospectively, as such, to work done prior to the decision.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

To clarify, is it the case that the 8% reduction only applies to the legal team employed by the State but not to legal teams that are paid for by the State?

Ms Brigid McManus

Third party costs are on the basis of what was a reasonable market rate at the time for the work involved. It is the same basis on which a taxing master would decide the work. That would depend on the rate, on when the work was done and the settlement made. The commission would look at other issues such as what the solicitor may have done for other clients. It is basically the market rate at the time for the work as assessed.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

The 8% does not apply then to third party costs?

Ms Brigid McManus

No. Unless the work was done in a period for which rates generally would have been affected by the 8%.

Chairman

Can we come back to this issue later as it has gone on for half an hour?

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Yes, Chairman, I will begin to conclude.

Reasonable market rates is a subjective notion. How did the commission determine the outstanding bill for third party costs would be €40 million?

The legal cost accountant employed by the commission will haggle with the legal cost accountants representing the barristers and solicitors involved. What is the incentive for the commission's accountant to get good value?

Ms Brigid McManus

There is a process which involves the commission staff. Much work will have been done by them before it goes to the legal cost accountant. From the experience with costs they have settled to date, they have a matrix of information on what solicitors have been charging for this type of work. There are also a series of checks they can do. For example, if a solicitor claims he or she was at a hearing, it can be checked against the commission's records or the complexity of a statement can be compared with others. The administrative staff have this experience before matters go the legal cost accountant. The legal cost accountant will examine the various bills in light of this information and would advise as to what further reductions could be got. He would then negotiate with the solicitors for the other sides.

I accept we asked the Comptroller and Auditor General not to reveal the level of discount we received. However, I will say it was considerable. The chairman of the commission, Mr. Justice Ryan, feels this is one area they have been effective in and the legal cost accountant has been very effective.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Is the legal cost accountant on a flat-rate payment?

Ms Brigid McManus

Yes.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Is there any incentive built into that for the person to bring down costs?

Ms Brigid McManus

They are not on a percentage of moneys saved. However, there is the professional incentive of doing a good job for a client.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

We will not place much store there given the level of fees we have seen down through the years, in particular when the State picked up the tab.

Have any of these cases gone before the Taxing Master?

Ms Brigid McManus

The legislation provides for that if the outcome of the negotiation is such that it cannot be resolved. There is one case that is currently with the Taxing Master. The others have been settled without going to him. The legislation works to our advantage in that a claimant has no right to go to the Taxing Master until the negotiation process is concluded.

Coming back to the issue of the legal cost accountant – they seem to have good business this weather – the commission went through a strong process to get someone who did not have a conflict of interest in Ireland.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

That is a critical issue at keeping costs at a minimum. I do not get the sense that the Department has any role in ensuring value for money is achieved. Is there any oversight of the work of the legal cost accountant?

Ms Brigid McManus

There is an oversight by the commission in the first instance and then the Department has an oversight of the commission.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

In what respect?

Ms Brigid McManus

Settling third party costs is a matter for the commission under the judge and its secretariat. The Department would have a general oversight role to ensure processes were in place, a legal cost accountant was employed and the general processes being followed were reasonable in reducing costs.

Professors Hillary and Meenan took the court cases about the vaccine trials.

Chairman

Would Mr. Buckley clarify a point on this?

Mr. John Buckley

In the course of my office's own estimation it too has employed legal cost accountants. Part of their job was to engage with the commission and its legal cost accountants. While it was not in my report, those legal cost accountants said it was happy with the process and the professionalism of the accountants.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

It was the process rather than the value.

Mr. John Buckley

Naturally there are always issues around value. However, the legal cost accountants were happy a rigorous process was gone through in each individual case. The issues in my report are more around the estimation generally and whether it is possible to estimate the outcome. We were employing them for this purpose. Assurances were given to me in this respect and it would not be right for me not to disclose this.

Chairman

In all of this there is a certain vagueness and woolliness with which I cannot come to grips. The committee encountered this problem in the past when it examined legal costs. Legal representatives are appointed by tribunal chairpersons with no proper procurement polices. It is a gift, and at the rate of €2,250 a day for a senior counsel and €1,500 for a junior counsel, one which creates unhappiness among the committee.

Our efforts to come to grips with legal costs paid for by the State are being hampered by the Attorney General's refusal to appear before the committee. It is hoped to have the Accounting Officer of his office before us in the future. There are two Taxing Masters, both of whom said they could not give us a decision as to whether they could appear before the committee until the new President of the High Court was appointed. The committee was subsequently informed they would not appear at all because of the separation of the Judiciary and the Legislature.

The committee, therefore, is facing serious obstacles in getting to the truth on how taxpayers' money is being spent. Enormous sums of money are involved. It is akin to a runaway train of legal costs, part of which is derailed because of bad legal advice on vaccines, and we are finding it hard to come to grips with it. Quite honestly, it is annoying for members of the committee that we cannot get certainty as to whether there is milking of the system or a violation of taxpayers' rights. It seems to be out of control and nobody appears to be able to get near the truth. It is about time we came to grips with this. We intend to exercise the powers we have, even though the committee's powers are limited.

It is very disturbing that here again, today, we have a situation that has got out of control and there is total vagueness on the whole set-up. Before Deputy Shortall finishes, we asked for information earlier about professors who sabotaged or stopped the inquiry into the vaccines. Perhaps they are on the record already, but if not I should like to get them on the committee's record. If Ms McManus has this information, perhaps she might provide it to the committee.

Ms Brigid McManus

The Chairman is referring to Professor Meenan and Professor Hillary.

Chairman

Who do they work for?

Ms Brigid McManus

People have a right to go to court. As far as I know, they are both——

Chairman

We are not saying they don't have the right, but who pays their salaries?

Ms Brigid McManus

I am not sure. As far as I know they are both retired, but we can check this for the Chairman.

Chairman

When they were doing their research work, who were they employed by at the time?

Ms Brigid McManus

We shall get some detail from the Department of Health and Children and let the committee have it. I am not sure who they were employed with at the time.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Ms Mc Manus said earlier she expected the work of the commission to be wound up by the end of this year.

Ms Brigid McManus

The chairman has advised us that he expects the work to be concluded by the end of 2010.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

That is another full year. That seems excessive. Why should there be another 12 months' work, and how many staff are we talking about?

Ms Brigid McManus

There is work for another ten people, if we are talking about full-time staff, as opposed to people such as the commission members who can be recalled.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

That means ten people working on this for a further 12 months.

Ms Brigid McManus

That is correct. A major job has to be done in cataloguing records. There is the issue of significant amounts of third party costs that still have to be dealt with. We will keep the situation under review, but staffing was reduced after the public hearings and the numbers were further reduced on concluding the report. However, further work has to be done, so we shall keep an eye on the staff level needed to bring it to conclusion. Nonetheless, an enormous amount of work is involved on the records issue and the negotiation of third party costs.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Is there a separate budget heading in the Department's Vote?

Ms Brigid McManus

Yes, there is a subhead.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

What was that allocation this year?

Ms Brigid McManus

It was €18 million, but our estimate is for an expenditure of about €8 million. It had been anticipated that more of the third party legal costs would have been settled.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

That means those additional costs will have to be met next year.

Ms Brigid McManus

Yes, that is correct.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

I will begin with the fulfilment of employment contracts in the institutes of technology. It is an extraordinary situation that somebody could hold down a full-time job in Athlone Institute of Technology and another in the NUI Galway. The scandal is not that it happened, but rather that it could be done — the fact that they worked so few hours in these institutes that they could quite comfortably hold down two full-time jobs. Apparently they work 16 hours per week in the various institutes of technology. Has Ms McManus any idea how many people do the full 16 hours?

Ms Brigid McManus

The requirement is to do on average 16 hours teaching per week. There is also a requirement to be available for non-teaching hours as well.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

Is it the case then that everybody does the 16 hours, because that is not my information?

Ms Brigid McManus

In the institutes of technology it is a matter for the management in each college or the directors to determine that the time tabling ensures everybody works their hours. There is flexibility in how many hours are worked. It is a matter of averaging the hours worked, so that a lower number in one week may be compensated for by longer hours the following week to deal with semesterisation.

Some greater flexibility in the contract – and I believe some of the institutes agree with this — would allow us to maximise the number of hours worked because of semesterisation. It may well be that the management systems will not be the same in all institutes so that the maximum number of hours are not being worked. However, this is an area being worked on and systems are being developed to try to monitor the situation.

In some areas there may be a declining interest in particular subjects which can present certain problems as regards the skills of the staff — the fact there are people with skills which may no longer be needed.

I do not know whether the president of Athlone Institute of Technology would care to comment on the monitoring system being employed in this regard within his institution.

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

Certainly, in Athlone IT we control and monitor all the academic contracts being worked on a semester basis. These are reviewed by the institute's audit committee. In fact next week the external auditors will do a full review of our time tabling to ensure we are maximising the effectiveness of the staff within the institute. All of us are teaching 16 hours this year, and some are teaching more, in fact, as will happen in the second semester, too, because we have seen a significant increase, particularly among first-years.

This year we have an increase in first-years of more than 30%, which has put extreme pressure on the staff. While the vast majority of staff teach 16 hours per week, they are also involved in other activities within the institute, in terms of dealing with students, talking to students' committees and doing some of their research. We would consider that only a small minority, within AIT, believe that the 16 hours teaching fulfils their contract.

Ms Brigid McManus

A problem exists with the annualised hours issue, which is 560, I believe. While lecturers may fulfil their weekly hours, issues can arise with semesterisation, to ensure the full complement of annualised hours is being worked. While the weekly hours may be worked because of the way the academic year is constructed, we certainly have some concern about the annualised hours target not being fully achieved.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

Dr. Ó Catháin knows what is happening within Athlone Institute of Technology, but Ms Mc Manus does not know what is happening at departmental level because AIT does not report to the Department on the hours these lecturers work. The institute audits the situation itself, but does not report its results to the Department. Why not?

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

Currently, we come under the jurisdiction of the Higher Education Authority.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

I have a problem with the manner in which the third level sector operates. We are getting a very poor return to the Exchequer. Basically, AIT operates in isolation from the Department which does not know what it is doing. Is that not a breakdown?

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

We certainly fulfil all our obligations in terms of all the report mechanisms that have been put in place through the HEA.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

Is it not the problem, then, that the present reporting mechanisms are insufficient?

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

All of the report mechanisms may need review from time to time. If the current ongoing discussions in terms of the contract for academic staff is concluded, we shall see significant improvements, particularly in moving to annualised hours, across the sector.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

Lecturers are contracted to do 16 hours of actual teaching. They are supposed to have other duties on top of that. How many hours are they working per week, on average, or does it vary from lecturer to lecturer?

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

It would vary, in terms of lecturers' involvement in the courses they are teaching and curriculum development. They are also involved in committees within the institute and some are doing research, which is being encouraged by the college. Since 2000, 40% of our staff have pursued masters or doctorate programmes, which feeds back into teaching. The vast majority of our staff are working well in excess of 30 hours per week.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

Are the hours outside the teaching hours being monitored?

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

Yes.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

What return does the institute get from all of these extra hours that they are doing? They are being paid to do this work, so what return does the institute get from it?

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

There is a contribution to the community structure within the institute. There is a continuous examination of the curriculum to ensure that the programmes we are offering meet industry demands. They offer tutorials to students and assist students with tutorial support. Some of them are doing work for industry in our area, especially with the SMEs. Some of them are involved in research, which adds to the overall public perception of our institute.

Ms Brigid McManus

While it is not explicit in the contract, the assumption was that there is a 35-hour week.

Funding and mechanisms are very much the responsibility of an individual body, which must ensure that it deploys its money or staff resources as best it should. Our responsibility is to ensure it is done under the framework and that the systems are in place. We would like to see issues improved under the contract terms, because without an improvement in contracts, the institutes are inhibited in how they can deploy them. We have engaged with the HEA and the HEA has engaged with both the institutes of technology and the universities about having proper management systems in place. From a departmental point of view, we would like to have systems in place that allow universities and institutions to monitor the situation, and not for the Department to be getting reports about individual lecturers. It is still a work in progress as to whether those systems are sufficiently robust.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

Am I right in saying that these institutes would be operating from a teaching perspective for 30 weeks per annum?

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

We operate on two 15 week semesters.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

That is 30 weeks. There is a contract for 16 hours per week, so this makes 480 hours in total, yet the teachers are supposed to teach for 560 hours per annum.

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

That is what the Secretary General meant when she spoke about flexibility in the contract. The contract is over 35 weeks, but staff work outside that in terms of corrections, marking papers, attending exam boards and so on. There is significant administrative work involved with that. Ideally, we would like to see greater flexibility. If we annualised hours, we could get much more of them into those 30 weeks.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

Are lecturers paid extra for correcting papers?

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

Yes, they are.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

On top of the few hours that they are working every year, they are paid extra for correcting exam papers.

Ms Brigid McManus

They are paid extra for correcting exam papers, not for course work.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

They are paid extra for correcting exams that they have set themselves. They have not reached the 560 hours, yet we are still paying them extra for correcting exam papers.

Ms Brigid McManus

Under the current contract, they are paid for this.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

That is extraordinary. Are there any plans to change that?

Ms Brigid McManus

There is a range of issues in industrial relations for which we are looking for changes under direct facilitation at the Labour Court, and this is one of those issues.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

If somebody wants to do work outside the institute, he or she needs approval in writing from the director of the institute.

Ms Brigid McManus

That would have been the case in some of the existing contracts.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

So it has not been implemented across the board yet.

Ms Brigid McManus

It would already be the case for some contracts, and the question was whether it was being sufficiently enforced. Some contracts would stipulate that the person must comply with general policies, and there would be a general policy that the person must get permission for this. How it is dealt with in the contract may vary. We are assured by the HEA that it is now in place in all the organisations concerned, and that such people must get that written permission.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

If it comes to the attention of the president of an institute that somebody is operating outside the college and is not after getting that required written permission, what sanctions apply?

Ms Brigid McManus

The person would be in breach of contract and there are disciplinary procedures that can apply in the various institutions.

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

In our institution, all members of staff who want to engage in outside work must get permission from the president. In this particular case, the individual had no permission from the institute, so when it was brought to our attention, we dealt with it.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

I am not talking about this specific case, but about the general situation.

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

Many who are looking for permission do so because they are doing external examiner work outside. Some may be doing work with voluntary and community groups, and some may be doing work over the summer period with some firms. Our view is that if some of this feeds back into the classroom and the teaching process, it can be very valuable for the lecturer and for the student. There is a balancing act as to how somebody can pick and choose, and how we would say "Yes" or "No" to individuals.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

What sanctions apply if the institute has not been asked and the person is operating outside the institute?

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

If a member of staff in AIT is operating outside the institute even though he or she has not got permission, we would then invoke the disciplinary procedure that is in place. That procedure has been agreed nationally across the sector.

Chairman

Can you provide a specific example?

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

There are several sanctions available, from a letter on the file to a suspension or, ultimately, to a dismissal. If there is a fundamental breach of contract, then that could go to a dismissal.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

Has that ever happened anywhere?

Ms Brigid McManus

There certainly would have been dismissals, but I am not aware of any case where dismissal arose from outside work. I am fairly certainly that there have been no dismissals in such cases.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

Was the person working in Athlone and Galway dismissed?

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

He was not dismissed. It was brought to our attention on 27 November 2007. We got clarification from NUIG that it was the same individual on 29 November. We informed the individual, his union and his legal representative that his position was untenable, that there was a fundamental breach of his contract and that there was a fundamental breach in his relationship with the institute. We had an emergency governing body meeting on 30 November, where I was given permission to suspend the individual without pay if the need arose. We had further discussions that afternoon with his legal advisers and our own legal advisers, and we had secured his resignation by close of business on that Friday. I also understand that he tendered his resignation to NUIG after that.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

Fair enough. Let us say that somebody is lecturing somewhere in architecture. That person can seek permission to work outside the institute when he is not in conflict with what he is doing in the institute. However, he could then be operating in the black economy and competing against people who are trying to earn a living as architects. To me, that is fundamentally unfair, but from what the witnesses are saying, it can happen.

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

It can happen, but that is one of the areas which we try to ensure does not happen.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

Are they in conflict with the college?

Dr. Ciaran Ó Catháin

No, but we also try to ensure they are not in conflict, if there is a tendering process——

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

I am not talking about anything to do with the college. They are going out there and operating as architects in the private sector, as well as supposedly working full-time in Athlone IT.

Ms Brigid McManus

Generally, the approach of all of the colleges and universities, to the best of my knowledge, is that where it is what one might call pure private practice, even if it is not a conflict of interest with the university or institute in the sense the Deputy means it, that is not the type of outside work that should be facilitated. Generally, the kind of outside work that would be facilitated is where it is seen, as the president said, as having a benefit for the institution. For example, some of the issues such as trying to improve links between the institute or university and enterprise through projects such as start-up companies, applied research and similar areas would tend to be the ones that are facilitated, rather than pure private practice such as the Deputy describes. It is not that people automatically get permission provided there is no conflict of interest. Conflict of interest is one of the issues but the other issue would be the desirability of that outside work in the context of it feeding back into the work they are doing, or feeding into the wider community or social remit of the institution.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

Will Ms McManus outline the progress made to date on the higher education strategy review, particularly with regard to the effectiveness of the use of existing resources?

Ms Brigid McManus

The higher education strategy group is looking at a range of issues, including resources. As part of its work it has received submissions from outside groups and it has carried out some research. It has also engaged with representative groups, as well as workshops with individuals from both business and academia.

On the issue of deployment of existing resources, that is being considered both at the macro level with regard to the configuration of the system and in terms of some of the issues we have discussed, such as the contractual issues that arise across the sector between the universities and the institutes. It is also being looked at in terms of presentations by various staff running the institutions about what systems they have in place to monitor effectiveness of resources, for example, with regard to the workload management models that were in place in the universities and what the systems are to deal with that. It is fair to say that recommendations will be made as a result of that work for changes in some of these areas.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

Would it be appropriate to ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to comment? I have raised this matter previously at the committee, as have other members, in the context of the value for money we are getting in this area. There was a suggestion that the Comptroller and Auditor General was to carry out some work on that. Has there been any progress?

Mr. John Buckley

Hopefully, we will do it in 2010. We have done preliminary scoping of the work but we have not been able to begin the full study because of resource constraints. We have people tied up on audits such as the FÁS audit and various other audits. We are doing a reasonable body of work in the education area at present and this has to be progressed and sequenced according to the resources we have. However, we regard it as something we should do.

In addition, we want to try to avoid overlap with the study the Department is undertaking. The committee has just heard the point made about workload management models which would be effectively the core of what we would consider in the course of an examination with regard to deployment, that is, how money is allocated to universities, how it is applied within them and how the human resources that are bought with that money are deployed in practice. That would be the core of any study we would do. Before I kick off the study, I need to make sure I do not duplicate the work being done by Mr. McCarthy and his people who are working for the Accounting Officer.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

Is there a system in place for lecturers to buy out their contracts and go full-time into research within the ambit of the institute in which they are working?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

There are several funded research teams in each of the institutions funded through external funding agencies, whether Science Foundation Ireland or other research funders. They would in some cases cover an element of the teaching costs, in other words, they would cover some element of secondment costs to cover part of the duties undertaken by those researchers. We would expect all research-active academics in the system to teach and to have a teaching load as part of their work.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

Everyone would have some sort of teaching duty.

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

Yes, that is what we would expect.

Ms Brigid McManus

As the Deputy may be aware, it is an issue of concern which has been explored in great detail in the higher education strategy to ensure that research-active academics are engaged in teaching, not just in the postgraduate sense but so that this teaching experience and research experience is feeding back down to the undergraduate level as well. The concern is that they may have postgraduate students but the undergraduates are not benefiting as much as they should from the experience of these academics.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

Is the code of governance which was approved by the HEA in January fully in place everywhere?

Ms Brigid McManus

Yes.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

Does the Chairman want me to deal with questions on supervision and substitution at this stage?

Chairman

Deputy McCormack has dealt with that. In regard to research being done in third level institutions, arising from much of that research, we see start-up companies being formed and subsequently these companies are sold off at enormous profit. Is there a clawback system in operation to benefit the Department and the taxpayer in the event of these companies being sold off as a result of the research undertaken within the institutions?

Ms Brigid McManus

Several different arrangements apply, and we can supply the committee with further information on this issue. With spin-off companies, there may be an interest by the institution in which the company has been established. There may also be a State interest because the share capital or some of the seed capital will have been provided by Enterprise Ireland, for example. It would be a classic situation that some of the original work would be taken to a certain point within the institution and then, when a campus company was being set up, the capital would have been provided by the State through the Enterprise Ireland system, not through the university system. The company may then become bigger.

Different interests may be involved. It may be an interest of ownership of the intellectual property involved or it may be an interest on the Enterprise Ireland side. For the universities and institutes of technology, it is probably more an interest in the intellectual property ownership rights which would have a certain value. In the case of the Enterprise Ireland investment, I know of the cases of one or two companies where Enterprise Ireland has made significant gains from the share capital it had invested. Obviously, however, the stage at which Enterprise Ireland is investing is the risky one so, on balance, it will lose money on its portfolio as well as gain.

This whole issue is one that requires certain balances. The question of how to establish better links is one not only for the higher education research group but also for the innovation task force established by the Government. The criticism sometimes made by companies is that the desire to achieve payback through the intellectual property may be restricting growth and usage and that we should perhaps seek to ensure that the intellectual property generated by the institutions is more widely available for enterprise to capitalise on so that we can get an employment return for the broader Ireland Inc. rather than being so focused on the institution itself. In other words, there are restrictions on maximising the value for Ireland Inc. out of the capital created.

Chairman

If there is a financial return for the individuals who head up this, surely there should also be a return for the institutions that employ them. What clawback has been achieved by the Department in regard to start-up companies, either on-campus or off-campus? There are substantial examples of off-campus industries as a result of research done in third level institutions. What is the level of payback to the Department and the taxpayer for that work?

Ms Brigid McManus

The payback would come back into the institutions through the income they generate. I do not have that information but I will certainly get the Chairman the data for what was received in the past five years, for example.

Chairman

Thank you.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

Perhaps when we are signing off on this report, we can keep this particular aspect of it open. It is something that requires further consideration by the committee based on what we have heard today.

Chairman

I agree.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

I wish to return to the issue raised by Deputy Kenneally. When it was discovered in November 2007 that the lecturer in question was working in two institutions simultaneously, was it the case that he was fulfilling the requirement of a minimum of 16 hours of lecturing in each?

Ms Brigid McManus

The 16-hour minimum is a requirement in institutes of technology. It is my understanding — the president may wish to clarify this — that the individual concerned was fulfilling his requirement in regard to lecturing and other areas and that the issue may have been to do with the off-campus research time that would have been included in his contract. I understand his requirement in terms of lecture load at NUI Galway was between six and seven hours per week, which he was fulfilling. The issue that arises is in terms of the monitoring of the other aspects of the university contract. University contracts are less specific than those pertaining to institutes of technology.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

How long was this going on and why was it not detected?

Ms Brigid McManus

It was going on from 1999 to 2007.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

It was going on for eight years.

Ms Brigid McManus

Yes, from May 1999.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

Did the definition of "fulfilling the hours" include travelling time between the two colleges?

Ms Brigid McManus

No, my understanding is that the individual was carrying out his lecture load in both places. The issue that arises is what monitoring was done of his non-lecturing load, that is, the other aspects of his contract.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

Can the 16-hour minimum be covered in two days or must it be spread over a week, for example? Are there any regulations in this regard? Would all these problems not be solved if lecturers were paid by the hour?

Ms Brigid McManus

The timetabling of lecturing hours depends on the particular course and may vary week by week or semester by semester. Some staff will be blocked in for a significant amount of lecturing at one period and less at others. It is fair to say that concern was expressed in the independent review regarding the scheduling of hours on a Friday at Athlone Institute of Technology. The issue that arises in terms of the hours is that staff are employed to fulfil a wide range of duties, not just lecturing, particularly in universities. In institutes of technology there has been a heavier emphasis on lecturing, whereas in universities the employment contract is supposed to cover research activity and other issues.

In practice there are issues regarding the monitoring of the delivery of hours and in ensuring lecturers are scheduled as they should be. There are also issues regarding the quality of the hours delivered, and it must be acknowledged that lecturing hours require some preparation time. Concerns regarding the monitoring of activities are, apart from the issues around the classes, even more so about how the totality of the contract is delivered. For example, one of the issues identified in the independent review regarding Athlone Institute Technology — and I understand this is a general issue — is that there are academics who deliver well more than what is expected of them, who are very research active, very involved with students external to their lecturing time and who give great time in feeding back to students on their work. However, there may also be a minority of lecturers who are doing the minimum in terms of teaching load, are not research active and not giving the same quality of service outside lecturing hours.

The challenge is how we can ensure, without jeopardising what is working well or imposing on the degree of autonomy that is required in terms of good quality research, for example, that we are tackling, through improved and effective monitoring, the people who are not fulfilling their contract. Much of that comes down to how active heads of department or faculty are. An issue in many universities is that they have reorganised and restructured their departmental system to give a stronger management role to the head of school. One can have everything one likes written down in contracts but the only way to manage this effectively is to have a very strong head of department or head of school who will make sure that lecturers are scheduled to teach and will keep on top of what research is being done. We can develop workload modelling systems that measure research by objective criteria such as articles produced, citations in journals and so on. Ultimately, however, one is dependent on the head of department to manage the situation.

Chairman

Let us cut to the chase. Ireland is a small place and Athlone and Galway are not very far from each other. The lecturer in question was employed by Athlone Institute of Technology at the time he applied for a full-time position at NUI Galway. Did the latter make any inquiries to Athlone Institute of Technology regarding his employment record? Surely he had to produce references?

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

That is the point I was making. Why was this situation not detected in eight years?

Chairman

The individual in question was recruited by NUI Galway when he was already employed elsewhere.

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

It emerged from the independent review that the individual had informed NUI Galway when he applied for the full-time role there in 1999 that he was already working full-time at Athlone Institute of Technology and that he asked NUI Galway for permission to finish his teaching duties in Athlone for that academic year, after which he would commence his full-time post at NUI Galway on 1 May 1999. Clearly, however, the university failed to take any follow-up action to ensure he had tendered his resignation.

Chairman

It is becoming clear that the authorities at NUI Galway have important questions to answer in regard to this matter. Did this individual have two pensions?

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

My understanding is that he was paying into the pension scheme at each of the colleges.

Chairman

That is scandalous. Representatives from NUI Galway must be brought before the committee to answer the questions relevant to them.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

To clarify, was the individual in question fulfilling the 16-hour requirement in one of the institutions?

Ms Brigid McManus

He was fulfilling the 16-hour requirement in Athlone. His lecturing load varied by the week at NUI Galway but he was fulfilling the requirement, on average, to provide six to seven hours per week of lecturing time.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

In theory, could a person fulfil the 16-hour requirement in two or three days?

Ms Brigid McManus

It depends on how the timetable is scheduled.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

It could happen.

Ms Brigid McManus

Yes.

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

With some staff we try to spread the lecturing load over four or five days per week, depending on how research active they are and what else they are involved in. As a rule, they are spread over a minimum of four days. We try to keep a day free for staff who are research active, undertaking PhDs or who are masters students.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

I am not clear why it was not detected over eight years that a person was working in two institutes when he was supposed to be working in one only.

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

I can only speak on this from the perspective of Athlone Institute of Technology. The individual fulfilled his contractual obligations with us in Athlone Institute of Technology. He did 16 hours teaching, he did additional teaching, he was available for all coursework and he was involved in curriculum development with the institute partners. It amazes me that he could do this and still fulfil a full contract load within the university sector at the same time.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

It amazes me as well.

Chairman

He was not fulfilling a full-time contract. We are told he was working only six to seven hours in National University of Ireland, Galway, which did not fulfil his contract. He got away with it.

Ms Brigid McManus

University contracts have no minimum teaching hours. The institute of technology lecturing contract is an explicit contract agreed across all institutes of technology in a national framework. University contracts depend on the individual universities. The teaching load required of a lecturer varies against the balance of other activities required.

Chairman

Can they do what they like in universities, without a requirement to reach a minimum amount of teaching?

Ms Brigid McManus

The contract given to any individual lecturer is a matter for each individual university. Generally, university contracts allow different teaching loads to be required from different lecturers or different teaching loads from lecturers at different times. In other words, it is not specifically required that a lecturer must complete X hours of teaching and Y hours of research. It is a more general contract. There is not the same rigidity.

Chairman

With all due respect, we must have a copy of each contract immediately. This could go on all day. The Accounting Officer of National University of Ireland, Galway, must appear before this committee.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

We should invite the presidents of the seven universities before the committee.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

Who paid him for the work he carried out?

Ms Brigid McManus

Athlone Institute of technology and the National University of Ireland, Galway.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

Is there no crosschecking of this?

Ms Brigid McManus

No, there is not normally crosschecking.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

How was it detected in the end?

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

It was detected in the end because the HR unit in the National University of Ireland, Galway, contacted us. They had a suspicion that the individual was working with us as well. This occurred on 27 November. Having confirmed it was the same individual by examining the employee's reference number, we contacted them on 29 November. At that time, the individual was on paid sabbatical leave from the National University of Ireland, Galway.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

Was he on paid sabbatical leave? It gets better.

Chairman

If people in academia examine brochures of each university and college, surely they would see the names of people in both colleges. Are there other examples of this?

Ms Brigid McManus

I am not aware of any other examples.

Chairman

I suggest Ms McManus examines the brochures of all colleges over the past number of years to see if there are names in common.

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

There may be individuals lecturing on part-time contracts in institutes of technology, teaching for four hours per week, who may also have a position lecturing in another institute or a university.

Chairman

Mr. Ó Catháin is saying that there may be others.

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

There will be some.

Ms Brigid McManus

It would not be uncommon. It may arise that someone may have part-time teaching hours in a couple of schools. In the same way, people may have part-time teaching hours in a couple of institutes, particularly early in their careers when they are not established. We can provide the institute of technology contracts to the committee. It is a standard contract. University contracts vary and I suggest that we can provide a sample from each university.

Chairman

No, I think we should get the specific contract of this individual.

Ms Brigid McManus

Certainly.

Chairman

I suggest we defer noting this report and that we invite the president of National University of Ireland, Galway, to attend a meeting of this committee.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

What is the cost of the substitution cover scheme? Has it increased this year?

Ms Brigid McManus

The costs have increased in so far as teacher numbers have increased. If there are more teachers in the scheme, the cost increases. The rates of pay have not increased. More generally, because the supervision substitution scheme is just one element, the changes made in the budget provided savings of €25 million per year. The cost of the scheme is €36.3 million for the year 2008 to 2009. This is the cost for primary supervision. The total cost of the supervision substitution scheme is €112.8 million for 2008 to 2009. This includes primary, secondary, comprehensive and VEC schools.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

What was that in previous years?

Ms Brigid McManus

The second level total, which is what the report covers, is €27 million in the school year 2003/04, €29 million in the school year 2004/05, €31 million in the school year 2005/06, €33 million in the school year 2006/07, €34.7 million in the school year 2007/08 and €36.3 million in the school year 2008/09.

Chairman

Does this not include VECs?

Ms Brigid McManus

No, this is the figure for secondary, community and comprehensive.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

In the case where an absent teacher must be replaced, how is the position filled? Is it offered to unemployed teachers or to retired teachers? What is the procedure?

Ms Brigid McManus

Assuming someone outside is employed for short-term absences, we expect schools to use the supervision and substitution scheme. For maternity leave or substitution where an external teacher is employed, it is for the school to decide who is chosen. The Minister and the Department have asked schools to prioritise newly-qualified teachers. Obviously there is a requirement to employ a qualified teacher where available. Due to the immediacy of circumstances, the subject mix at second level or the location, schools can have trouble getting qualified teachers for a short-term absence. The first requirement is a qualified teacher. Schools have been requested to give priority to newly-qualified teachers.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

Is it still up to the school? Is it at the discretion of the school, whether it be a retired qualified teacher or an unemployed qualified teacher?

Ms Brigid McManus

Yes, that is at the discretion of the school.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

In this day and age——

Ms Brigid McManus

There is legislation on discrimination and non-discrimination.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

In the current employment situation, should there not be an obligation to offer the post in the first instance to qualified unemployed teachers rather than a qualified retired teacher? Should that concession to the school be withdrawn?

Ms Brigid McManus

We have exhorted schools to give that priority and it would be desirable. Legally we would not be in a position to enforce it.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

It is not the practice. In many cases the practice is that temporary jobs are given to retired teachers who might have worked in the school. Is that justified?

Ms Brigid McManus

Some schools would argue that there can be circumstances in which they have no option. In the past, when there was a shortage of teachers——

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

I want to talk about where the option exists.

Ms Brigid McManus

Where the option exists sometimes it can be argued that at the notice and for short-term substitution it may be difficult to get somebody.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

Just cut——

Ms Brigid McManus

The numbers have decreased. In the year 2008 to 2009 in primary schools, 11.6% of the days worked were worked by retirees.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

That is 11.6% of what?

Ms Brigid McManus

As a percentage of the days worked. If we take the days worked by substitute teachers, the percentage of those days worked by a retired teacher acting as substitute was 11.6% in the year 2008 to 2009. In September and October 2009, which is when we asked for this to be examined, it decreased to 7.75%.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

I am pleased that it is decreasing but it is still substantial. I am trying to establish the procedure. What does a school have to do to hire a substitute teacher? Is it a matter of the principal going to somebody who they feel is qualified and asking them to take the job?

Ms Brigid McManus

The employment of teachers is legally the responsibility of the board of management which may delegate certain functions in that regard to a principal. The requirement is that in so far as possible, a qualified teacher is employed although there may be certain——

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

Who checks that it was possible?

Ms Brigid McManus

It is a matter for the school.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

It is purely a matter for the school. Has any directive gone out to school principals to state that qualified unemployed teachers should be employed in those cases rather than retired qualified teachers?

Ms Brigid McManus

I will provide the committee with a notice that was sent to all boards of management of primary and post-primary schools and chief executive officers of vocational education committees. Shall I read it?

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

Yes. I would like to see it.

Ms Brigid McManus

It states that the Department wishes to draw the attention of school authorities to a specific aspect of a speech made by the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, at the annual conference of the AMCSS earlier this year, where the Minister spoke of the need to encourage schools to give priority to qualified teachers, and particularly newly or recently qualified teachers, when making appointments for periods of substitution cover. The Minister acknowledged that due to the change in teacher allocations for schools it was inevitable that more teachers compared to recent years would be seeking work. The notice also states that in the new circumstances, the Minister believes it is essential that every opportunity to teach is given to teachers who are not in work and that he requests school authorities to bear this in mind throughout the current school year and, whenever possible to give those teachers priority over those who are retired. The recipients were requested to ensure that copies of the information note were provided to the appropriate representatives.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

What is the date of that directive?

Ms Brigid McManus

October 2009.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

Who will check that principals pay heed to that directive?

Ms Brigid McManus

We will certainly be monitoring it at an overall level.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

It is only a request.

Ms Brigid McManus

However, we are not in a position to second guess at an individual local level what circumstances arise.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

That is not worth the paper it is written on; it is only a request. Nobody will check whether it is adhered to or fulfilled.

Ms Brigid McManus

We operate in a devolved system where the issue of employment of teachers is a matter for individual schools. We do not have the resources to check every appointment made for a day or two days. The most we can do is to monitor it at the aggregate and raise issues if we think there are problems with boards of management or if specific issues come to our attention in individual schools. Given the volume of people employed as substitutes we do not have the capacity to check every individual appointment. If they had to be vetted by us it would cause the system to jam up. What we can do is monitor what is happening more generally and engage with boards of management and schools to deal with issues when they come to our attention. Long-term contracts are not financially attractive to retired teachers because pension abatement will kick in. Obviously, this would not arise if they are doing a small number of hours.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

To get back to the scheme, why is it set up in such a manner that teachers are paid for hours committed as opposed to hours worked or delivered?

Ms Brigid McManus

Deputy McCormack may recall that this scheme was introduced on foot of an industrial relations dispute by the ASTI. It is fair to say that it was negotiated in a fairly difficult climate. At the time, the ASTI took the position that substitution and supervision were voluntary activities offered on a grace and favour basis by members. They withdrew those duties and there were many difficulties and school closures. We employed external people and it was a very bitter dispute. Part of the ultimate resolution of the issue was to put in place a new scheme. Annual payments were made for people who volunteered to enter the scheme. It was an on-call type of arrangement that was negotiated at the time. It is fair to say that some aspects of the scheme are restrictive but it was a very difficult scheme to negotiate at the time and to put in place. We got the best deal we could at the time. That is not to say that given the issues raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General and some of the issues we are examining in the review, even allowing for the nature of the scheme put in place, schools should not be able to make better use of the scheme than the review showed. However, the overall framework of the scheme was negotiated in a particular context in settling a dispute.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

Has the Department considered the option of paying for hours delivered as opposed to hours committed?

Ms Brigid McManus

There may be issues that will come out of the review of the scheme, not only the issue raised by the Deputy but perhaps the issue of how the on-call arrangement works and other aspects that may involve having to renegotiate the terms of the scheme. The review of the scheme is being conducted in an industrial relations forum in that it is being carried out by a sub-committee of the teacher's conciliation council. Obviously, in any negotiations to change a scheme there are processes that must be gone through. It is fair to say that the review we are undertaking at present may well throw up issues that will require a discussion to renegotiate the terms of the scheme. Given the new arrangements, the evidence we have to date is that because secondary schools have a limited pot of money for other types of substitution, they must ensure they use the 37 hours more efficiently and get closer to 37 hours being used.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

Why has the Department not evaluated the scheme before now?

Ms Brigid McManus

One of the issues that arose was that the scheme had been operated on a paper-based process. In November 2006 we introduced an on-line claims system. That was the first time we were in a position to analyse the usage of substitution and supervision by schools and other aspects of the use of substitution. Partly on foot of that we were in a position, in the context of the Government decisions on the budget in October, to change some of the systems in place on the basis of aggregate information and distribution by use by schools of supervision and substitution. That review commenced in January and the interim review was concluded prior to the publication of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. In terms of our ability to raise the issues directly with the unions, some aspects have to be pursued further.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

The Department announced that the review of the scheme was to be completed before the end of the 2008-09 school year. Has it been completed and, if so, what was the outcome?

Ms Brigid McManus

The review commenced in January 2009 for the 2008-09 school year. As the new arrangements only began in January 2009, their operation over a full school year could not be reviewed. We agreed to continue with the arrangements for limiting substitutions for a full school year in 2009-10 and to gather data on the usage of the scheme.

As members will appreciate, some management bodies took the view that the arrangements were overly restrictive. However, we believe they are delivering on the targets sought for them. The review also covers the extent of uncertified and certified sick leave in primary and post-primary schools. Initial results indicate that uncertified leave has decreased considerably over the past two school years.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

When is it planned to implement the findings of the review?

Ms Brigid McManus

At the end of the 2009-10 school year. Some of the recommendations made on an interim basis were implemented as we proceeded. These include the issue raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General regarding schools employing outside substitutes before somebody on the 37 hour scheme or the offsetting of balances in the accounts against further grant payments. However, issues arising in regard to changing the overall framework will be addressed at the end of the next school year.

Chairman

Does the scheme extend to both private and public secondary schools?

Ms Brigid McManus

It extends to every school for which the State pays teachers. That would include fee charging schools at both primary and secondary level.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

I want to return to employment contracts in the third level sector. I will not dwell on the Athlone Institute of Technology issue but Mr. Ó Catháin noted that the individual in question had paid into two pension schemes. Did the State also contribute to these schemes?

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

I cannot speak for NUIG but we made our contributions.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

Mr. Ó Catháin states that he paid into the NUIG scheme.

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

I understand he did so.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

I take it his employer also made a contribution.

Ms Brigid McManus

We will check that and revert to the Deputy.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

Legally, the employer would have to make at least one sixth of the overall contribution. What is being done in regard to the retained benefit? When the individual resigned from AIT, what arrangement was reached regarding his pensions?

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

There was no discussion of the pension but we understand from our legal advisers that he will continue to be entitled to his pension because he paid into the scheme.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

What about NUIG?

Ms Brigid McManus

My understanding is that the same would apply but I can confirm that for the committee.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

If that was the legal advice received by AIT, it was incorrect. Effectively, the person was working on a PAYE basis in two jobs at the same time. Is the Department telling me it does not know whether he is drawing two pensions after being paid two salaries even though he was supposed to perform one job? It is probably the only situation in which two jobs can be done on a full-time basis.

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

He is not drawing any pension because he is only in his early 40s.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

Will he keep the retained benefits in both schemes when he retires?

Ms Brigid McManus

My understanding is that he will, subject to him fulfilling other terms but I will check that.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

Do we know?

Ms Brigid McManus

I do not know.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

That should be checked immediately. The Department and AIT do not know whether someone who breached his contract and who should have been sacked will be able to draw two pensions when he reaches retirement age. Are the trustees of AIT's pension scheme not concerned that they have been paying into an individual's scheme over an eight-year period even though he was in breach of his contract?

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

Our scheme is part of the State scheme.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

Did the college authorities not consider the fact that the State was contributing to his scheme? Like every college, AIT has to manage its budget. Did it not occur to anyone to investigate the issue? Was he to be allowed to walk off into the sunset?

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

Our legal team advised us that he was entitled to his pension because he had paid his contributions. From an AIT perspective, he had fulfilled the terms of his contract.

Ms Brigid McManus

My understanding is that Galway received similar advice.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

That is incredible. He should not have been working in both positions.

Chairman

The most he should have received was a refund of his contributions.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

Do the witnesses have any idea of the value of his retained benefits?

Ms Brigid McManus

We will provide that information.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

I concur with the Chairman that we need to meet the seven university heads. By my reckoning, the university sector received approximately €940 million.

Ms Brigid McManus

The combined figure for universities and institutes of technologies is €1.3 billion, or approximately €800 million for the universities.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

As I am sure the witnesses will appreciate, legislators are facing difficult decisions on introducing third level fees and increasing registration fees. The Department, through local authorities, is granting higher education grants on the double. Universities are setting no minimum for teaching hours and a maximum of 16 hours per week of contact time. I am not satisfied that we know how many lecturers are coming close to that 16 hour maximum. They are paid for 560 hours per year but are teaching 480. They are paid additional money to correct their own examination papers. The HEA is engaging universities and institutes of technology in a process of identifying the scope for increased efficiencies. We are still waiting for the value for money report because the Comptroller and Auditor General has a lot on his plate.

We are spending €1.3 billion per year. The double jobbing case involving NUIG and AIT is probably the tip of the iceberg in respect of value for money and hours worked. I am not satisfied with any of the answers I heard this morning. I am not satisfied with any answer that has been given or any aspect of this. It would be funny if it was not so serious. It is €1.3 billion a year of taxpayers' money for universities and we do not have scoping even done between the universities and the institutes of technology. A value for money audit is outstanding and I want to return to the pension issue. What is the Department's position on the augmentation of pensions at retirement in the university sector and institutes of technology?

Ms Brigid McManus

The figure for recurrent funding in universities — it is general funding — is €796 million, with research funding of €86 million.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

What is the capital figure?

Ms Brigid McManus

That is €64 million. That includes institutes of technology as I do not have a breakdown of that figure.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

We are not too far off €1 billion on the seven universities.

Ms Brigid McManus

There is also €26 million for the strategic innovation fund, which goes across both sectors. I do not have a breakdown for that and there would be research money from SFI as well.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

It is a lot of bread.

Ms Brigid McManus

The pension scheme for the institutes of technology is a standard State scheme that would have been introduced and approved. It is a pay-as-you-go scheme. Since the Universities Act 1997, there has been a requirement for the pension scheme to be approved by the Minister for Finance. There would have been pension schemes in place before that with older provisions. As Deputies are probably aware the assets of university pension schemes are being transferred and payments are being made.

Some of the terms of the university pension schemes would differ from what I might call standard public sector pension schemes, although such schemes can vary. Trinity College's pension scheme requires a person to work until 65 whereas most pension schemes allow a person to retire earlier. The Deputy asked about added years and the schemes allow for added years to be provided in certain circumstances. There are certainly cases where staff have legal entitlements under the pension schemes to some added years.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

They get them for free.

Ms Brigid McManus

Yes. There are normal public sector practices where people can buy added years but I am not dealing with that.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

That is understood. We are talking about specific university schemes.

Ms Brigid McManus

We have received legal advice on the matter. There could be some cases where universities may have given an employee undertakings with regard to getting added years under the pension scheme which would have been permissible under the scheme. There is an entitlement. There may be other cases where a governing body would decide the matter. The Deputy is not talking about added years under the incentivised scheme for early retirement.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

Effectively, the university schemes are transferred under the NTMA. The State manages them. With regard to people retiring from Trinity, UCD or any of the seven universities this year, what is the procedure on giving extra years on their pension to increase it as these people go out the door?

Ms Brigid McManus

They have not transferred as yet.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

I know that. They are in the process of doing so.

Ms Brigid McManus

At the moment we are in discussion with each of the different universities about the practical issues. There must be a transfer order under the Act before the transfer occurs. One of the issues we are looking at, about which the unions have expressed some concern, is how the added years issue would operate once the pension fund is transferred.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

Taking UCD as an example, I have information to hand that people who will be retiring later this year — when we will have a serious budget deficit — will all get added years at senior level. Is this discretionary or does everybody get the added years in practice of up to a sixth of their service? We are looking at 18% extra going into the pension as part of their gratuity and guaranteed pension for life. In the current climate, University College Dublin and other universities are still adding extra years for people retiring to the Exchequer's cost and none to the person retiring.

Ms Brigid McManus

I will check the specific case raised by the Deputy and revert.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

It is a fact.

Ms Brigid McManus

We received legal advice on the provisions of staff at one of the other universities. In that case, staff are entitled, under the scheme and contractual commitments, to added years. I am not sure about the position in UCD but I will check it out and come back to the Deputy.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

I ask Ms McManus to do so. Everyone at a senior level who is retiring between now and Christmas is getting added years. The Higher Education Authority must get a handle on this. If we are saying it is discretionary, it will be taken as such. The witness has not said that it is custom and practice, tied into the rules of the pension scheme. She has effectively said that in some instances that is the case but in others it is not. It may go to the board for it to decide on a case-by-case basis. Which is it? It is not in all the scheme rules.

Ms Brigid McManus

Pensions are a reasonably complex area but in most scheme rules there is a provision allowing added years.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

There may be a provision but is it a condition that extra years are added on retirement? Is it the case that they may be added?

Ms Brigid McManus

To the best of my knowledge, in most of the schemes it is a "may be", although there could be some circumstances in which it can be an add-on. Even in some cases there may have been an undertaking to get added years at the time of employment of a lecturer some years ago. If that is the case there is a legally binding quality. There is also an issue about custom and practice and legitimate expectations; if a practice has been such over a long period, the practice will apply.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

We are left with many "ifs", "buts" and "maybes". We do not know. This committee needs to hear from the seven universities which schemes are legally bound to give added years to people who have not completed their full pensionable service. There are cases of pensionable service of 30 years being augmented to 37 years at no cost to the individual but at a cost to the Exchequer.

In the seven university schemes and those in the institutes of technology, which must give added years and which may give them at the discretion of the board? Are our universities continuing to give added years in the current climate to people with good service and pensions already for free? We have dealt with the issue in other State agencies and it bothers me. We do not have a handle on it.

Ms Brigid McManus

I will provide a note for the committee. In some universities there may be more than one pension scheme.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

Sure.

Ms Brigid McManus

I will detail the provisions applying in that respect for each university, and where there are issues as to the practice of how they have applied. We have specific legal advice, which I will relay to the Deputy.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

It is needed. I will not labour the point any further but the ongoing cost of these augmented payments going into retirement must run to the tune of millions of euro. I have seen a small detail of the issue and if I multiply it across the universities and the number of people retiring this year and every year, it will run to that amount without even considering what has happened over the last couple of years. If the practice is discretionary it must be stopped. That is what I am arguing today.

Mr. Brendan Ellison

I do not know which schemes are discretionary or the details of the schemes. The Department of Finance has advised the HEA and universities, in line with the Government decision about the takeover of funds, that where there is discretion and where it rests with the trustees, it should be exercised in favour of the State and the Exchequer until the funds transfer to the Exchequer. From that point, the discretion would rest with the Minister for Education and Science and the Minister for Finance and it would then be a matter for the Ministers to decide how that discretion would be exercised in light of legal advice and so on. The clear advice in the interim is that until such time as the funds transfer to the State, any discretion must be exercised to the benefit of the funds pre-transfer.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

That is what I was getting at. I will finish on this point. It was mentioned that any discretion should go towards the State in respect of the transfer of the scheme. I refer to information I know to be factual in respect of people retiring in the coming two months from University College Dublin. They have worked at senior level and have had their pension benefits increased and enhanced in the transfer, against the wishes of the Government and the Minister. This is very serious. How many such cases are there in our other universities since the notification of the transfer and the clarification from the Department of Finance? Have the universities paid any heed to it? From what I can gather, the approach in UCD is discretionary and it has paid no heed to the notification. The Department of Finance has given clarification on this matter.

Ms Brigid McManus

I am unsure of the position in UCD and I will check it but a similar issue arose in Trinity College, which was the subject of discussions between us, Trinity College and the Department of Finance. The legal advice was that added years had to be provided because of some of the contractual arrangements.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

There are people in UCD at a lower grade whose pensions were not increased on foot of a recommendation. Given that there were no increases at lower grades but there were increases at higher grades I deduce the matter is discretionary. I refer to the point I made at the beginning regarding AIT, Athlone Institute of Technology and NUI Galway. One person did two jobs and was in receipt of two pensions when he should have received only one. The Secretary General informs me now that the legal advice is that we should let him away with both pensions. There is a greater issue and we need to get to the bottom of the matter very fast. Will the Secretary General and the Department liaise directly with the committee with regard to a timeframe? There must be a very short timeframe to get this information to the committee in the best possible way. The committee must assess the matter because it is very serious.

Ms Brigid McManus

I would be pleased to do so. We regard it as a serious issue also, which is why we are involved in intensive discussions with the various institutions.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

With all due respect, we raised the matter here today. No one else raised it. The Secretary General did not come to the meeting to indicate there was an issue with free enhanced or added years of service for people at senior grades. The committee raised the issue. No one in the Department told me this was a serious issue until it was raised today. It appears the Department of Finance has given a very clear statement regarding what is taking place and, based on the information I have, the universities are not following the guidelines.

Chairman

In fairness to the Secretary General, we are examining the substitution and supervision scheme employment contracts in respect to AIT, Athlone Institute of Technology and the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse today. However, the issues have been raised and they should be answered.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

It is a matter of fulfilling employment contracts.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I thank the Chairman and I welcome Ms McManus and her colleagues. I refer to the theme of the universities. How much are the seven university presidents working in the State paid? What is the salary range and will the Secretary General give some examples of what they are paid?

Chairman

This is moving away from the point.

Deputy Michael McGrath

It is relevant because it relates to employment contracts and the issue is being considered.

Ms Brigid McManus

I do not have the figures here. The information is in the last review body report. It is of the order of €250,000 in some cases. We can get the figures but I do not have them before me. It varies depending on the size of the university.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I would be obliged if the Secretary General could get the figures.

Ms Brigid McManus

We will see if we can check it before the end of the meeting.

Deputy Michael McGrath

Who sets the scales in that case? What if a new president is appointed?

Ms Brigid McManus

A rate is agreed for each university. It arises in the case of grades specifically examined by the review body on higher remuneration. Rates would have been set in the last review body report for each of the individual universities, institutes of technology and some of the other institutions. They are encompassed in the same process that deals with Assistant Secretaries, Secretaries General, the Garda Commissioner and Ministers. There is a rate set for each job, it is a single point rate rather than a scale.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I would appreciate it if the Secretary General could get the details. I refer to the issue of vice-presidents. How many vice-presidents are there in the university sector? In some institutions there are as many as six or seven, which seems a remarkably high figure.

Ms Brigid McManus

We will get the figures.

Chairman

The issue to be covered today is the report on the examination of the fulfilment of employment contracts in the institutes of technology. However, the Deputy has asked for this information.

Deputy Michael McGrath

All I ask is for the relevant information to be provided.

Ms Brigid McManus

The following figures may not be exact but they are relatively recent. UCD has eight vice-presidents, UCC has five, NUI Galway has four, NUI Maynooth has one, TCD has one, University of Limerick has one and DCU has two vice-presidents. If one is considering senior posts, executive deans or heads of schools should be considered. UCD has five, UCC has four, NUI Galway has five, NUI Maynooth has three, TCD has three, University of Limerick has four and DCU has four such posts. The management structure of the institutes of technology typically involves a president or director, registrar, a secretary or financial controller and a head of development. DIT has a different structure. Historically, it has presidents because there was an amalgamation. There is a president and directors of human resources, finance, academic affairs and research and enterprise. It has six faculty heads with some 36 schools reporting to those posts. We can get the Deputy a note of the details.

Deputy Michael McGrath

Who sanctions a request from a university to create another vice-president post? There seems to be a significant variation. The Secretary General referred to eight vice-presidents in UCD but TCD only has one such post. There appears to be a remarkable divergence between these universities, both of which have a very high standing.

Ms Brigid McManus

Under the Universities Act there is a statutory requirement for the rate of pay for a particular level to be agreed by the Minister and the Minister for Finance. There is no requirement for numbers control or for any approval of numbers. The institute of technology legislation is different. The Government's public sector numbers policy is operated through an employment control framework for the universities and the institutes of technology. It is not imposed in the case of the universities by a legislative requirement but as a condition of funding. There are various rules about not filling various posts but which require the institutions to reduce their numbers by 3% by the end of next year. There is no requirement to agree the number of posts. However, in the work of the review body on what represents an appropriate rate of pay for a given post, the numbers of such posts is an issue to be considered as well in terms of the responsibilities.

Deputy Michael McGrath

In effect, universities have complete autonomy with regard to the creation of new posts of vice-presidents.

Ms Brigid McManus

Yes.

Deputy Michael McGrath

UCD has availed of this to a generous extent and created eight posts, whereas Trinity College has only one. Will the Secretary General provide the details of the salaries of the vice-presidents along with the details of the presidents' rates of pay?

Ms Brigid McManus

There are relevant matters relating to registrars and bursars as well. There are slightly different structures in the different universities, so what might be most useful is if we gave the committee the management structure numbers for each one because in some cases some things are done by registrars, bursars or others.

Deputy Michael McGrath

We would also like information on the salary levels.

Ms Brigid McManus

Yes.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I have a couple of brief points and I appreciate the Secretary General may need to revert on the issue. I want to raise the issue of sabbatical leave. It is related to employment contracts and the entitlement of academic staff to take a year of leave, in effect, on full pay, something which, I understand, they can do every few years. What are the checks and balances in place to ensure staff carry out the work, such as research or study, during the year which they said they would be doing? To what extent is there a follow through? I ask the delegation to revert to us again in due course with the details of how much money has been spent on sabbatical leave across the university sector and if it also applies to institutes of technology. That would be helpful.

Ms Brigid McManus

I do not know whether the president wants to make a comment on how it operates in his institutions.

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

We do not operate a sabbatical scheme. There is a scheme which is agreed nationally but because of the current financial constraints we have never used it in our institute of technology and I do not think it has been used widely across the sector.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I ask the witnesses to revert to the issue of the universities and the discretion they have in the case of somebody whom they deem to be suitable for appointment to a senior administrative post but deem the salary scales for such posts to be inadequate. They appear to have some discretion to apply professorial academic salary scales to certain administrative staff. I ask the witnesses to check that point.

Ms Brigid McManus

We would have academic staff doing administrative duties.

Deputy Michael McGrath

No, I refer to somebody whose entire job involves administration but who is deemed to have skills and qualifications of a very high standard and where academic professorial salary scales instead of the relevant scale pertaining to the administrative post concerned are being applied.

Deputy Seán Fleming

I thank the Chairman. I am sorry I am late; I was voting in the Dáil. On the issue of the fulfilment of employment contracts, I am intrigued by what I have heard so far. In March 2007 the Athlone Institute of Technology was informed that one of its full-time lecturers was also lecturing in the National University of Ireland, Galway, and had been doing so for eight years. I may have missed the answer, but has he paid back the second salary?

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

He certainly has not paid back the salary from the Athlone Institute of Technology because from our perspective he had fulfilled his full contractual obligations.

Ms Brigid McManus

My understanding is that was also the position of the National University of Ireland, Galway, namely, that it was not in a position to reclaim his money.

Deputy Seán Fleming

We have a full detailed report. As a result of this situation, the Athlone Institute of Technology commissioned an independent survey by the Comptroller and Auditor General. I am shocked to hear he is still in receipt of two payments. From the Department's point of view——

Ms Brigid McManus

He is not in either place anymore.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Did Ms McManus say he is not in either place?

Ms Brigid McManus

He has gone from both places, but we were not able to claw back his salary from the past.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Why not?

Ms Brigid McManus

He was deemed to have fulfilled his responsibility——

Deputy Seán Fleming

Why did he cease employment in Athlone if he was fulfilling his contract and everything was perfect?

Ms Brigid McManus

He may have been fulfilling his duties but he was in breach of his contract by holding two jobs.

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

We were informed by Galway on 27 November 2007 and it was confirmed to us on 29 November. That afternoon we informed Mr. O'Malley that his position was untenable and he could no longer remain in the institute because there was a fundamental breach of his contract.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Correct.

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

He tendered his resignation by close of business on 30 November.

Deputy Seán Fleming

I wish to jump forward because we will come to the issue shortly. In the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, the point is made that the contract of employment of Mr. O'Malley with the Athlone Institute of Technology meant he must have prior written approval from its director for any external employment. Can we have a copy of that letter? Does such a letter exist?

Chairman

Deputy Fleming was missing because of the vote.

Ms Brigid McManus

He did not receive permission.

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

He did not have permission.

Deputy Seán Fleming

I cannot understand, if it was generally accepted that he was in fundamental breach of his contract, why the State feels it has an obligation to pay for two pension contributions. If it is accepted that the situation was so serious it resulted in an immediate resignation, it is clear the breach did not occur on the day of the resignation but was ongoing for the previous eight years. I still do not understand why the institute did not seek to claw the money back. Has it gone to court regarding the issue?

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

We have not gone to court but the legal advice made available to the institute at the time was that it would not be in a position to claw the money back because he had fulfilled his contract and his hours and, therefore, we would incur additional costs if we tried to claw back the money.

Deputy Seán Fleming

He fulfilled his contract, but Dr. Ó Catháin said he was in fundamental breach of it. I have a problem with reconciling being in fundamental breach of a contract while the witnesses say he has fulfilled it. As a lay person I do not reconcile those statements. If he was in breach of his contract he was not fulfilling it. He was doing work but he was in fundamental breach of his contract and was working during the period in question. At all stages when he held two full-time contracts he was in fundamental breach of them and should not have been paid for those periods. It is a soft option. There is only one person carrying the can for this situation, namely, the Irish taxpayer. I am still not satisfied with the situation. I ask, through the Chair, for a further assessment of the situation.

Chairman

We have asked for that. It is not the Deputy's fault he was missing. We will invite the president of University College Galway to come before the committee to explain the situation.

Deputy Seán Fleming

We have the president——

Chairman

We got answers from Athlone.

Deputy Seán Fleming

I think the Chairman understands my point. Would Mr. O'Malley have paid 52 PRSI contributions in both places and had the equivalent of two years' contributions for PRSI and State benefits, aside from his State pension or any other entitlements one receives as a result of PRSI contributions? He would have paid 104 contributions if he paid it in both places.

Ms Brigid McManus

He was paying tax, social welfare and PRSI. I am not sure how PRSI calculations are made if one pays for two employments in the course of one year. I will have to check with the Department of Social and Family Affairs.

Deputy Seán Fleming

I would ask Ms McManus to follow up on that.

Ms Brigid McManus

It can happen legitimately and it is not unusual, in terms of Revenue or tax, that one could have PRSI contributions from more than one employment, such as in the case of a part-time worker, but I am not sure how they are treated. I will check the situation.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Given that the system at the time was weak and was not able to spot this, would it have been possible, given the limited number of contact hours the lecturers had, that a person could have had three jobs? What would have prevented a person having three jobs?

Chairman

We already established that.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Okay.

Chairman

From previous evidence we heard, there is no requirement in University College Galway or any university regarding a minimum amount of work.

Deputy Seán Fleming

I heard that. The issue of the total number of teaching hours was raised. There is no requirement for a lecturer to teach for any amount of hours. He or she can teach for zero hours in a university. The witnesses might not have the information to hand on the total number of teaching hours, lecturers and the average hours per lecturer in third level education but it gives us a picture of what we are dealing with regarding universities and institutes of technology. The Department is paying for it so I take it information on the number of lecturers and the teaching hours required in each of the third level institutions is in the system. I ask the delegation to give us the average number of hours worked. Does the delegation know how many lecturers in the third level sector have zero teaching hours?

Ms Brigid McManus

There is no standard university contract. Some contracts may require some teaching but unlike the institutes of technology there is no nationally agreed contract. I have already undertaken to get copies of contracts for the committee.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Is Ms McManus able to get the information I asked for?

Ms Brigid McManus

On the point regarding people who have no teaching hours, it can happen in some cases. My colleague mentioned a situation whereby if somebody has dedicated research money from a body such as Science Foundation Ireland, some of the teaching hours he or she would normally be expected to do will be paid for out of the research budget. However, all research personnel would be expected to do some teaching hours, but they may be less than the norm. They do their teaching hours with post-graduate students but that is being addressed with a view to doing some undergraduate teaching too. Apart from the presidents who do not teach, there would not by and large be anyone who does not have teaching hours unless he or she is on a sabbatical. We can get the information for the Deputy.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Will Ms McManus get the information? I am trying to relate this to primary school level, where if there are more than nine mainstream teachers there is a non-teaching principal. All major primary schools have non-teaching principals and they have important work to do. Does that principle continue into third level? I am sure that the response to a parliamentary question would tell me how many non-teaching principals are in the schools.

Ms Brigid McManus

Approximately half of the primary schools have non-teaching principals.

Deputy Seán Fleming

That may be essential at primary school level but we cannot get a feel for what happens at third level. There must be many non-teaching posts even though the staff are lecturers in the first place. We look forward to receiving that information. Over the years this committee has been sitting a pattern has emerged whereby people can have part-time contracts at one, two or even probably three and four third level institutions. This is far looser than the medical consultants' contracts on which the State has been fixated for years, believing that it is getting bad value. They had the opportunity to do private work and the same seems to happen in the third level education sector. There has been an effort to draw up a new medical consultants' contract. I do not know how successful the State has been in those negotiations. We have not even started that process in the third level sector. It seems to be several years behind. We are heading into the exact same murky territory in respect of private income and activities outside the contracted hours. The scale is probably much more significant than that of the hospital consultants. How many people teach at third level? Are there not thousands there?

Mr. Kevin McCarthy

There are approximately 7,000 or 8,000 in the universities, including research staff.

Deputy Seán Fleming

The numbers involved are much higher than those of medical consultants. The most depressing aspect of this features on page 30 of the report before us which states that the Accounting Officer in the Department is informed that the contract will be examined in the context of the Towards 2016 agreement and discussions are ongoing through relevant industrial relations fora. There seems to be zero sense of urgency in dealing with this. How is the taxpayer's interest being watched? It should be accepted that these contracts must be reviewed. If that is the current position we will ask that it be changed because that is altogether too weak.

Ms Brigid McManus

I explained earlier that the institute of technology contract which is referred to on that page of the report is at facilitation under the Labour Relations Commission. There have been attempts to renegotiate these contracts. Some issues have been addressed, as in the teachers' contract, and we have tried to make changes, and did so in some cases, in successive national agreements. Some industrial relations negotiations can take time. I accept that we do not always get what we want or as fast as we would like to.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Moving on to the supervision and substitution chapter in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, there were significant improvements in this issue this year. I have seen press statements. Somebody told me that thousands fewer substitution hours were paid in 2009 as a result of the changes that the Minister announced towards the end of 2008. That must be very relevant. Does Ms McManus have information on that?

Ms Brigid McManus

We estimate that we have saved €25 million in a full school year as a result of the changes introduced last January. Approximately €13 million was the saving on official school business in post-primary, €9.5 million was saved on certified sick leave at post-primary level and €5.5 million was saved on the uncertified sick leave at primary level. This is a result of reducing restrictions on what we would provide substitute cover for and we saved approximately €2 million on the substitution for career development across primary and post-primary. In addition, the figures show that there has been a significant decrease in the uncertified sick leave that has been taken. While that does not save money it means there is more availability in the schools, if the Deputy can follow me.

Deputy Seán Fleming

No.

Ms Brigid McManus

Our figures for uncertified sick leave at primary level show 17,249 days taken in the 2008-09 school year. That was a decrease of 28.6% compared with 2007-08. Some of that will reduce the cost of substitution but because we are not now paying the first day of uncertified sick leave in a primary school and have capped the amount a post-primary school can use. It effectively has a budget for substitution cover for either uncertified sick leave or official school business. If there is less uncertified sick leave the school has more teacher time availability.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Fewer substitutes must be brought in and paid for.

Ms Brigid McManus

Yes, fewer substitutes must be brought in and paid for and we save from that but there would be certain situations in which we were not paying for substitutes, for example, at primary level the classes might have been divided across one teacher fewer so we do not save money there but there are more teaching resources in the school.

Deputy Seán Fleming

I am concerned to hear this. Am I correct in getting the impression that if teachers were told that if they took uncertified sick leave it would come out of the school's budget?

Ms Brigid McManus

Or it will not be covered at all.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Or it will not be covered. There is a dramatic reduction in that but prior to this when the Department paid it was a blank cheque. Does the outcome not raise questions in the Department? It raises questions with me about who will pay for this because now that it is the school's responsibility there is suddenly a massive reduction in these claims. Was the system wide open until now?

Ms Brigid McManus

All I can say is that these are the figures compared with the previous year. The certified leave has risen only marginally although people said it would increase. It went up by approximately 4.8% at primary level and is flat at secondary level but there were increased numbers of teachers at primary which may affect that figure. This is an issue that we want to drill into in continuing the review for another year, to see if those figures are maintained. The rate is down 28.6% at primary school level and 38.8% at post-primary level. It is a significant change that may raise questions. People might argue that the schools were under such pressure that teachers who should have stayed at home and might have been put to the pin of their collar, came in knowing that the school would be in a hole. It may also be that knowing that the school was in difficulty some teachers made greater efforts. While I would not say they should not have made those efforts, one welcomes the fact that they made them but I would not like it to be said that the figures dropped because abuse was torched out. It may represent other factors.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally took the Chair.

Deputy Seán Fleming

I did not use that word.

Ms Brigid McManus

No the Deputy did not.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Most teachers get an allowance of €1,700 or €1,800 for participating in providing supervision in the school yard during break times. All teachers do not have to avail of it. What percentage of teachers do not avail of it and what happens in regard to funding? Does it go to the school or can the school use the fund to pay a parent to do the job? What happens?

Ms Brigid McManus

The way the system works is that the teachers can sign up for the 37 hours. If some teachers do not sign up voluntarily the money that would otherwise be paid to those teachers is available for the school to use. In the first instance, it may use part-time teachers to take on more hours or full-time teachers may be paid up to 49 hours. In other words, a teacher who has already completed 37 hours can be given an additional 12 hours.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Over what period?

Ms Brigid McManus

Over the year. The teacher is available for 37 hours. Given the concerns expressed earlier teachers do not get the extra hours unless they have worked the whole 37. An existing full-time teacher can do up to 49 hours. A part-time teacher can do up to full-time teacher hours but, in practice, it is more in the 37-49 hour space or they can bring in an outside supervisor or an outside substitute teacher out of the pot of money we pay them. If they give extra hours to a teacher in the school, that is clocked off against their allocation and they get the balance of the money as cash to use to pay outside——

Deputy Frank Fahey resumed the Chair.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Out of the total cost of the scheme, how much is paid to teachers and what percentage goes to the school? What percentage of teachers are in the scheme? It is not exactly the same question but is close to it.

Ms Brigid McManus

About two thirds of teachers are in the scheme in post-primary, that is, secondary and community and comprehensive schools. It is 97% in primary so there is virtually full coverage in that area. In the primary sector, the payment to teachers amounted to €56 million and €3 million in respect of grants. In the secondary and community and comprehensive sector the total amount for teachers was €25.9 million and a further €10.5 million in respect of grants.

Deputy Seán Fleming

In the last chapter in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, the document on the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse refers to the Residential Institutions Redress Act 2002. Can Ms McManus give the committee an update on the report of the valuation of the assets of the religious congregations that has flowed from this as a result of recent developments?

Ms Brigid McManus

Is it the Minister's report?

Deputy Seán Fleming

I do not know whose report it is.

Ms Brigid McManus

On foot of the Ryan report——

Deputy Seán Fleming

The Ryan report.

Ms Brigid McManus

——there were a number of processes but two issues. An expert panel was established at the end of July, chaired by Mr. Frank Daly, to look at the asset statements of the congregations. That report was finalised at the end of October and is under examination at present. In addition, the various religious congregations were to come back with offers. Most of those responses have been received and we understand the final couple will be with us this week, after which the Government will obviously fully consider both that and the panel's report.

Deputy Seán Fleming

I will deal with the two issues separately, because I have not heard this but perhaps it has been in the public arena. Have the majority of the 18 religious institutions made an offer over and above the original €128 million which was a combination of assets and cash contributions? Have increased offers been proposed by the majority of these institutions?

Ms Brigid McManus

Until the Government has fully considered it, I am not in a position to give that information. The understanding was that it would be made to Government and when the Government had considered it, it would make a statement.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Ms McManus has indicated that some additional offers——

Ms Brigid McManus

In fairness, most of the orders indicated to the Taoiseach when he met them in the summer that they were prepared to make a contribution. In terms of the specific responses from them about how much, responses have been received from most of them.

Deputy Seán Fleming

That is going to Government before Ms McManus can release them. Going back to the second part of that question, Ms McManus said she had the panel who assessed the valuation of the assets of the 18 religious institutions.

Ms Brigid McManus

The 18 congregations.

Deputy Seán Fleming

What is the situation?

Ms Brigid McManus

That report has been received and is being examined in conjunction with a number of Departments that have an interest in it. That will be considered by the Government along with the——

Deputy Seán Fleming

Have both reports been received?

Ms Brigid McManus

The panel's report has been received

Deputy Seán Fleming

Are the offers for most of the institutions, or at least a couple of them, outstanding? That is what Ms McManus appears to be saying.

Ms Brigid McManus

Yes.

Deputy Seán Fleming

The last thorny question is in regard to the other bits of land that were to be transferred under the original agreement. We are all smiling. It is a saga we are trying to sort out.

Ms Brigid McManus

No, sorry Deputy, I am smiling because I have to get a copy of the report here.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Some of it has been very difficult.

Ms Brigid McManus

Yes, it has.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Ms McManus might——

Ms Brigid McManus

I know I am not due to make my next report until December but I brought along the——

Deputy Seán Fleming

Ms McManus might give it to the secretariat——

Ms Brigid McManus

I think when I last reported to the committee in June, 25 properties were fully transferred. The position as of yesterday is that 31 are fully transferred as compared with 25 in June. I have a list of the properties accepted and those left that I can pass——

Deputy Seán Fleming

Are there many on that list?

Ms Brigid McManus

There are 32 that still have to be fully transferred.

Deputy Seán Fleming

So we are just half way.

Ms Brigid McManus

Yes. I should say that all those properties are actually in use by the people to whom they would have been transferred. Therefore, some of the issues being sorted have to do with legal issues to clear titles and——

Deputy Seán Fleming

I see.

Ms Brigid McManus

I think a further three are expected to be sorted in the next couple of weeks. They are with the Department of Finance for formal consents.

Deputy Seán Fleming

When did the transfer of these titles start? We are only half way through after a long number of years.

Ms Brigid McManus

The agreement was in 2002 but there were issues in regard to quite a number of properties about charitable donations and the ability and compliance with the trust. There were delays with particular batches of properties where problems had arisen with legal people. It was something the Deputy raised with me previously. We have a system in place of regular meetings with the Attorney General's office, the Chief State Solicitor's office, representatives of the orders and the HSE to try to ensure some of them get——

Deputy Seán Fleming

We are a good two years into the process and we are half way through the list of properties, 31 transferred and 32 awaiting transferral. Can Ms McManus give any idea of when we may be down to the last five or six? Would two years clear the vast majority of them? Can she hazard a guess?

Ms Brigid McManus

I would hope we would get them all cleared next year. Most of them are pretty advanced. It is probably a factor that the Taoiseach indicated to the orders a desire to recognise in terms of further contributions that there were cash, and near cash offer flexibilities, that perhaps property does not offer. I might also mention——

Deputy Seán Fleming

Is Ms McManus saying we are suggesting taking cash instead of some of the properties?

Ms Brigid McManus

No, sorry, in terms of any new lessons learned.

Deputy Seán Fleming

We are not taking any more property because——

Ms Brigid McManus

I am not saying that we are not taking any property.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Cash is preferred.

Ms Brigid McManus

I am not saying that offered the choice we would prefer cash. In respect of one of the properties that transferred, on which I am giving information, Cloughmacsimon, where there was an issue, we have taken cash in lieu. In some of these properties where there proves to be insurmountable issues over title we accept cash. Clearly if we want the property and feel it is necessary and unless there are insurmountable problems, we try to get the property.

There was an issue regarding the transfer of the property, of which the committee is probably aware from answers the Minister has given in the Dáil. It is not holding up the property transfer, but we are engaged in a separate exercise of reviewing how some of the valuations on these properties were done in terms of adjustments made in terms of historic grants. That work is being overseen by my audit committee. When it is finished I will provide a report on it to the committee. It may require some adjustments to the valuations but that can be done under the agreement.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

On that last issue, there is some laughter about it, but it is a matter of serious concern that this issue has been treated with such a lack of urgency. That feeds into people's suspicions about that deal.

On the contracts of employment, it is clear from the discussion that has taken place that this area will require detailed examination and I hope this committee will be in a position to do that early in the new year. It is almost a year since Deputy Kenneally first raised this as a matter of concern and many of us supported his proposal that the committee address it at an early date. It is regrettable that the Comptroller and Auditor General was not in a position, because of lack of resources, to examine it at an earlier stage, but I hope this committee will take it up as a major issue in the new year.

It is clear that those working in the third level sector are a law unto themselves. That seems to have been tolerated by the Department of Education and Science down through the years. This is not only a matter of value for money; there is the question of accountability and transparency. The requirement for accountability and transparency seems to have escaped those working in the third level sector and the requirement for that in the third level sector seems to have escaped those at the top level of the Department of Education and Science down through the years. Not only is it a question of us not getting value for money but students are being short-changed. There are several third level courses in which students have ten or fewer hours of lectures per week. That is a disservice to third level students who have worked hard to get into colleges. It is demoralising for them that the lecturers in their department provide them with fewer than ten hours of lectures per week.

I have not come across a contract where there is a maximum number of hours stipulated. What is the defence to allowing a situation to continue where there is no minimum number of class contact hours required or no minimum number of hours to be worked in a week?

Ms Brigid McManus

I am not saying there is not a problem in this area or issues that need to be addressed, but large numbers of staff do well in excess of the number of hours that might be required in their contract.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I would prefer if Ms McManus did not qualify the situation. I asked her what is the defence within the Department of a situation where there is a contract that has no minimum number of class contact hours or no minimum number of overall hours required to be worked in a week?

Ms Brigid McManus

There is in the case of the institutes of technology. There is a minimum number of teaching hours to be worked.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

What is that minimum number?

Ms Brigid McManus

Sixteen hours. That is the minimum number of hours required to be worked.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

That has been reported to us as being the maximum number of hours.

A Speaker

No, they tend to teach to the minimum number.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I do not want to know what they tend to do. I am asking about the contracts.

Ms Brigid McManus

The contract is a minimum of 16 hours with an ability to vary that at the discretion of management. It is a minimum of 16 hours, on average, with an ability to vary it between 14 and 18 hours in any one week.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

That is not the information we have. Therefore, could we have clarification on that. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report refers to a maximum number of 560 hours per annum, which is a norm of 16 hours per week.

Mr. John Buckley

It is my understanding that the 560 hours per annum is set in terms of the maximum number.

Ms Brigid McManus

The 560 hours annually is the maximum number.

Mr. John Buckley

While the 16 hours per week is an average, a norm.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Can we just clarify that? Is the 560 hour per year a maximum?

Ms Brigid McManus

The 560 hours per year is a maximum.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I have never come across a contract of employment where a maximum number of hours is set. Why is there no minimum number of hours that a person is required to have class contact?

Ms Brigid McManus

The IOT contract came originally from a teacher contract or in terms of normal class contact hours.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I am going to ask this question a third time now that we have got that clarification. What is the defence for a situation where there is a contract that does not provide for any minimum number of class contact hours or does not provide for any minimum number of overall hours required to be worked in a week?

Ms Brigid McManus

It requires a person to work 16 class contact hours per week. That is what is specified as being the person's norm.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Is that actually in the contract?

Ms Brigid McManus

Yes.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

That is a minimum number.

Ms Brigid McManus

It is a norm. That is how it is expressed——

Deputy Róisín Shortall

That is not a minimum.

Ms Brigid McManus

——because it may vary according to timetable requirement and it may be varied to be between 14 hours and 18 hours by the management of the institute. There is a weighting if those hours are worked after 6 p.m.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

How many different contracts are there?

Ms Brigid McManus

In the case of the institutes of technology, there is a standard contract for each grade within it. In the case of the universities there is no standard contract. It is an issue for each institution.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Does Ms McManus know how many contracts there are?

Ms Brigid McManus

How many different forms of contracts?

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Yes.

Ms Brigid McManus

No, but I could check that for the Deputy.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Has Ms McManus tried to introduce a standard contract in the university sector?

Ms Brigid McManus

The general view of the management of the universities is that having an academic contract that specified specific hours or that specified existing duties would be problematic for the way they operate. It is not a standard across any other country that has those kinds of contracts. Their concern would be to ensure that they would be able to enforce some of the frameworks within the contract and that in industrial relations agreements there would be explicit agreements that staff would comply with matters such as workload management and systems——

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I am not asking Ms McManus about the views of those working in the sector, I am asking her, as Accounting Officer for the Department, has she tried to introduce a standard contract in the university sector.

Ms Brigid McManus

No. We have introduced certain issues, for example, horizontal issues in terms of industrial relations negotiations about compliance with certain matters. Some things have been obtained, for example, the performance management systems that were introduced under previous agreements. We have introduced certain contractual issues, which would apply to everybody in the context of different industrial relations negotiations we have had.

The issue of introducing a minimum number of lecturing hours is not, to the best of my knowledge, an issue that we have pursued — certainly not in recent times, although I do not know about times past — because the advice from the people who run and govern those institutions and from the HEA is that, in line with the practice that applies in most other countries, they do not believe it would help the performance of the sector to have specified minimum teaching hours. There are other issues we would like to get included in the university contract in terms of some of the agreements with the unions and compliance with certain measures that we believe are needed to allow the management of the institutions to monitor it. For example, we need considerable development of formal academic workload management models which have been developed in the UK or Australia. Compliance with those models, no more than with systems such as performance management, requires agreements with unions. They are issues we pursue with unions.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Whatever about renegotiating existing contract, what is preventing the Department from introducing a standard contract for new people coming into the sector?

Ms Brigid McManus

The question is whether one would want a standard contract when the needs of different institutions differ. Would one wish to tie the hands of particular universities in terms of having standard contracts? If the issue is what is to stop us introducing things such as co-operation with new workload models or things we want in contracts for new staff, in both that sector and other areas of the education sector there are issues relating to industrial relations and agreement with unions that would apply in terms of new staff as well as existing staff.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Given that the Department pays the not insubstantial salaries of people working in the sector, is there not an onus on it to ensure that the taxpayer is getting value for money and that there would be at least a standard contract that would cover basic issues such as the number of hours required to be worked, number of class contact hours required, pension provision and the area of redeployment? Why cannot the Department set down standards in those areas?

Ms Brigid McManus

First, on the teaching hours, all the best advice is that it is not necessarily standard teaching hours that we need in the contracts. That is a separate issue. However, issues we would like to achieve in the school or university systems, such as redeployment and so forth, are subject to the normal industrial relations framework. There is a tradition of strong unions in the education sector generally. In fairness, we can only move in the context of social partnership and national partnership agreements. There are trade offs that always come into play between industrial peace, how quickly one can progress issues and settling a deal. We have secured a fair amount of changes. We have met IFUT, the TUI and SIPTU to explore issues relating to academic staff and issues on which we think there could be progress. Ultimately, the progress one can make is dependent on that; for example, I could call in the morning for a redeployment scheme, but what if everybody refuses to co-operate with it and industrial action is taken? We must be cognisant of that.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Whatever might happen with historical contracts, and many of them appear to be quite archaic, I do not see why the Department is prevented from introducing new contracts for new entrants to the sector. There is no evidence that a serious effort has been made to do that. On the question of redeployment, what happens in a situation where, for example, about ten years ago an IT department was set up in one of the universities with 500 places for students and the full staff complement to go with that and now, given what has happened in that area, there are fewer than 200 places this year? What happens to the staff who were employed in that department?

Ms Brigid McManus

In some cases, and this might be something on which Ciaran Ó Cathain might wish to comment, it has been possible to redeploy staff who have certain skills within institutions. I can think of one institution where staff who had certain expertise in one area were redeployed into, for example, new nursing courses where there was a decline in the mathematics and science department. There is no ability to redeploy staff from one institution to another, other than in certain limited circumstances where we have done it by agreement, for example, where institutions were closed down, such as St. Catherine's College of Education for Home Economics and Institiúd Teangalaíochta. Obviously, if staff do not have permanent contracts there are issues about letting staff go. In the case of permanent staff with tenure, we do not have the ability to make people compulsorily redundant. What has happened in a number of cases——

Deputy Róisín Shortall

There is no provision for redundancy.

Ms Brigid McManus

There is no provision for compulsory redundancy in the institutions. We have made individual arrangements whereby people with redundant skills, who in many instances would have long service, were given schemes which are along the lines of the current ISER scheme. These are early retirement schemes which would have been done in accordance with standard public sector norms. They would have been done institute by institute. In other words, the institute would come to the Department and say it could suppress certain posts and save those ongoing costs if it could provide voluntary early retirement. Generally, however, it would be on a voluntary rather than compulsory basis. It is an issue across the sector, particularly in the institute of technology sector, where there can be people in particular areas who are not as much in demand as they would have been previously. It is an issue for us.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Can we have the figure for the total academic pay bill in the universities and IT sectors?

Ms Brigid McManus

The pay bill is about 70% of the €1.3 billion; it is approximately €1 billion in total. I can get the academic and non-academic breakdown for the Deputy. I do not have it with me.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

With regard to the individual at the centre of all this, the witness said he spoke to him and that he agreed to resign. Was there any question of a severance package?

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

No, absolutely not. He would have liked a severance package but we made it quite clear to him on the Thursday evening that we wanted his resignation forthwith. Failing that, we would have moved to suspend him without pay. NUIG had him suspended on pay at that time. We were not going to exacerbate it. In the negotiations back and forth between his legal team and ours we were very clear that there would be no severance package. No severance package was paid.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Does Mr. Ó Cathain know if the same was the case with Galway?

Dr. Ciarán Ó Catháin

I cannot speak for Galway. I think that was the case though.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

What role does the Department have in agreeing to pension provision and the scenario that was referred to earlier regarding pension top-ups? Must it approve those packages?

Ms Brigid McManus

It depends on the sector. In the institute of technology sector the basic terms of the pension scheme and any departure from it require the consent of the Minister and the Minister for Finance. That means any pension top-ups, such as in the type of cases I mentioned, must come to the Department and, by and large, must get the consent of the Minister for Finance unless it is delegated. In the case of the universities, the newer pension schemes require the consent of the Minister and the Minister for Finance to the pension scheme as a whole, but historically there has been no requirement within that to have individual clearance of added years. This is because the provisions of the Universities Act are different from those of the legislation governing institutes of technology. As part of the transfer of the pension assets and liabilities to the Exchequer, as my colleague from the Department of Finance indicated earlier, the universities have been informed that the role they previously had under legislation as part of the quid pro quo will go to the Minister and the Minister for Finance. In other words, once they have transferred they will not be able to give any added years without our consent or the consent of the Minister for Finance.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

When will that come about?

Ms Brigid McManus

An order is likely to be made in the next couple of months.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

However, as things stand they make their own rules.

Ms Brigid McManus

They have been told that as the decision has been made to transfer, the discretionary power they have should not be exercised in any situation unless there is a legal requirement to make payment under the scheme.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Have they not been given extraordinary discretion generally?

Ms Brigid McManus

In fairness, I was not around at the time but in the debate on the Universities Act 1997 the issue of university autonomy versus control by the State got a fair airing. It is a sector that traditionally has had a high degree of autonomy in its operations in most countries. This country is not unusual. Issues such as academic freedom and autonomy arise. The real issue for us is how to have that type of autonomy and ensure accountability. I accept that balance is not correctly struck at present.

In fairness, we had too much control in the institutes of technology. There was a certain point where they could not employ somebody without the Department going into it in detail. The legislation that was introduced that transferred them to the HEA probably has a different kind of balance between that control and autonomy than has been struck for the university sector. However, the issue of how we do not get involved in second guessing every decision taken about research or anything else, but ensure that we have a robust system of public accountability, is probably at the heart of some of the work we are looking at in the higher education strategy. There certainly are areas where there have been problems in the past.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Ensuring that people are working for the money they are paid is a fairly basic requirement of any contract of employment. It is quite clear that that has not been the case. I hope we will be returning to this in the new year.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

I have a couple of brief questions on the supervision and substitution scheme. As regards the 37 hours per annum that are allowed under the scheme, does Ms McManus have any idea how many of those 37 hours are worked?

Ms Brigid McManus

The Comptroller and Auditor General's report showed that there was quite a variation between the schools he examined in terms of their actual——

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

The Comptroller and Auditor General's report stated there was an average of 30 hours.

Ms Brigid McManus

Yes, but even within that 30 hours it varied quite a bit. As part of the review, we are doing some work at the moment on trying to establish with each school the amount of hours that are being worked. One of the issues that has arisen is that because of the changes since January — where they have a restriction on the amount of outside substitution — more use is being made of the 37 hours. We wanted to see it over a full school year to assess how much was being used. Within that average of 30, some were getting as high or quite close to 37, while some were far lower. We have information on the number of teachers who worked 49 hours and, thus, who clearly worked more than 37, which is about 20% of them. We have some data on that area, but we do not have a complete picture for the current school year of how many are getting up to 37 hours.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

If there is an average of 30 hours, as the Comptroller and Auditor General's report said, that means that each teacher is getting approximately €300 a year for work that is not done. Ms McManus has the number of teachers assigned to this scheme in the voluntary sector. She does not have the figures for the VEC, but if we do it on a pro rata basis we are talking about roughly 20,000 teachers. If those hours are not worked, it is a cost to the Exchequer of €6 million. It is important that we achieve that as much as possible.

Ms McManus said that if a teacher does not opt into the scheme in a school, the Department will pay a grant to the school. I presume that is the grant that the substitution cover scheme is funded from.

Ms Brigid McManus

No. There are more general rules about substitution as well. Therefore, there are what one might call three elements to substitution. There are certain kinds of substitution——

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

I am sorry, I will ask the question another way. What is that money used for?

Ms Brigid McManus

That money is used to employ either outside supervisors or outside substitutes.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

That is what I thought.

Ms Brigid McManus

However, there are also other ways in which schools can employ substitutes.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

That is fine. That is what I thought.

Ms Brigid McManus

There is an administration fee within that grant money, as well.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

That is what I thought. On page 20 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, there is one school that succeeded in saving €39,000 over three years. What happens to that money?

Ms Brigid McManus

Following the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, that is now offset against the allocation for next year. Prior to that, it accumulated in the school.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

The principal and management of this particular school, wherever it is, have run their affairs so well that they have been able to accumulate €39,000. Because of that, should they not be allowed to spend that money in some other area? Would it not be an incentive to schools to ensure that this operates properly because they would get a payback from it? If the Department is just going to take the money back from them, why should they bother?

Ms Brigid McManus

That is an issue. There is also an issue that has been raised with us by the principal representative groups — that is, that knowing that this year was going to be tight, some schools would have deliberately tried to save some of that money——

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

Yes.

Ms Brigid McManus

——and that at the very least they should be allowed to carry it over in case they had unexpected substitution requirements the next year, such as the Young Scientists competition. While our current position is that it will be fully offset, we have said we are prepared to look at the issue where schools can legitimately argue that they should be able to plan between years for the supervision and substitution scheme. To allow them to divert it into other usage is perhaps a different issue to saying that they can plan their substitution better over a multi-annual period. We do not generally allow schools to do that, if they get grants for one purpose and can save money. Obviously, their capitation grant can be used for many purposes. We give flat amounts of money to some schools, while some may have differential needs because of their configuration or somebody getting sick. We have undertaken to look at the issue of more flexibility in the year-on-year period. It is certainly something we could examine if there was a legitimate case for allowing them to keep a percentage, if they save. However, we would have to be careful about what rules we applied.

Deputy Brendan Kenneally

Would the Department not agree there is an incentive for schools to work the 37-hour limit to the maximum of their potential and if they save money by doing that, they should be rewarded for it? Otherwise, a principal may say "What's the point in trying to get this right, when I'm going to be penalised for doing it?"

Ms Brigid McManus

It is a valid point. What provides an incentive at the moment is that the budget they get for other substitution is actually capped. It is probably a tight enough cap, or at least we are told it is. Therefore, they have an incentive because they will not be able to do activities. It is a valid issue, however, if there is grant money. In fairness to schools, it can be a bit arbitrary whether a school has all its teachers signed up or is getting a lot of grant money. We would have to be conscious of that, but it is a valid issue and we can look at it.

Chairman

If there are no further questions, I will call on Mr. Buckley to make his final comments.

Mr. John Buckley

We have looked at three areas today. The report of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse was part of a set of work we carried out on tribunals and inquiries. The committee has already considered that report on tribunals last July. Because the core of both reports relates to potential arrangements to achieve greater cost certainty and measurability, it is likely that members will have to come back to consider the outcomes, both of the July meeting and today's meeting, at a future private session.

The Accounting Officer has addressed the variations in practice that we outlined in regard to supervision and substitution. That matter is in hand and we will keep it under review, as we do future audits.

The Athlone Institute of Technology issue illustrates an incidence of deployment and the efficiency of deployment. I know that members of the committee would like us to have proceeded more quickly on a general review of the university sector, including deployment, but at least it has opened that issue to the committee. I think it now understands the parameters within which we are talking. Any future review will have to take account of quite complex issues, such as the grant to universities, which is designed to cover both teaching and research. There is an inter-penetration between both at university level. There is also a focus on research at university level, which can have an effect on deployment decisions. As regards faculties that are quite good at attracting research, it can have a knock-on effect for teaching and so on.

From the point of view of monitoring, there has been a move away from the unit cost model to a recurrent grant allocation model. One of the side effects of this is that in recent years, we have lost a certain amount of information on contact hours in the universities. The last time there was information on that was probably 2002, but I am speaking from memory here.

The complexity is illustrated by the fact that universities and institutes are moving towards new ways to deploy their staff and new ways to teach through semesterisation, modularisation and so on. Within the sector, there are changes in regard to new ways of learning and teaching, such as peer learning. It becomes very complex when one tries to frame and scope a study on it which will address all the issues of value for money that are inherent in the deployment of staff.

Another factor that complicates it is the fact that it is rather like this idea of fixed and variable costs which one comes across in accounting. Sometimes the idea of having visiting and part-time lecturers can be a very valuable input to top up a course. One has to allow a certain amount of flexibility.

These are problems I face when I have to put together a study on it. I raise them to illustrate that it is quite a complex area down where the rubber meets the road and where things happen in universities and institutes. The discussion should allow us to build on what we have heard today and when we move on to the next session, we will have a better idea of what we are talking about and how complex the issues are.

Chairman

I thank everybody who participated in today's session. Looking at Special Report 67, we note the supervision and substitution scheme and the area dealing with the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse, to which we will return, but we do not note the fulfilment of employment contracts and will come back to that in light of the information we have sought.

I note the view of members in regard to double jobbing and we will invite the president of National University of Ireland, Galway, to appear before the committee to give some explanations in terms of his accountability. We will deal with the other issues as quickly as possible. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The witnesses withdrew.

Chairman

During our recent session with Professor Brendan Drumm, the committee sought information on public-private mix on a consultant by consultant basis. We were told that report was being prepared and that we would have it as soon as possible. We were also told a report was finalised in regard to public-private mix on a hospital-by-hospital basis. Yesterday I noted in one of our national newspapers that the report was quoted, that a report had gone from the HSE to the Department of Health and Children and that figures were quoted. This committee did not receive the courtesy of receiving that report so last evening we sought a copy of it and it was made available to us this morning. The committee met in private session, looked at the report and noted it. We agreed to publish it so it is now available to those who have an interest in it.

At our next meeting, we will look at Special Report 66 of the Comptroller and Auditor General on advertising and promotion in FÁS.

The committee adjourned at 1.55 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 26 November 2009.