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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 11 Feb 2010

Special Report No. 68 — Public Service Pensions.

Mr. Ciarán Connolly (Secretary General, Department of Finance), Mr. John Corrigan (Chief Executive Officer, National Treasury Management Agency), and Mr. Paul Carty (Chairman, National Pensions Reserve Fund) called and examined.

I welcome everybody and I apologise to our witnesses for the late start. We had to deal with a large number of items in private session concerning our future investigations into FÁS and the HSE, so it took longer than we expected. We are looking today at the following: the 2008 annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and appropriation accounts, Vote 7 — Superannuation and Retired Allowances; chapter 5 — public service pensions; Chapter 42 — National Treasury Management Agency, National Pensions Reserve Fund; the National Pensions Reserve Fund Commission 2008 accounts; and Comptroller and Auditor General special report No. 68 — public service pensions.

I draw everyone's attention to the fact that while members of the committee enjoy absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. The committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. I further remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 158 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

I welcome Mr. Ciarán Connolly, Secretary General, public services management division, Department of Finance. I ask Mr. Connolly to introduce his officials.

Mr. Ciarán Connolly

Thank you, Chairman. They are Mr. John O'Connell, assistant secretary with responsibility for public service pensions, Mr. Tony Jordan, Mr. John Reilly and Mr. David Owens, who are all from the pensions area. Mr. Aidan Carrigan is from the financial services division. Mr. Paul Ryan, from our budget, taxation and economic division, is delayed because he is dealing with the Finance Bill but will be along shortly.

Mr. John Corrigan is chief executive of the National Treasury Management Agency. Before he introduces his officials, I welcome him in his new position as head of the NTMA and also wish a happy retirement to Dr. Michael Somers who was with us on a number of occasions and who was always most forthright and open in his contributions to us. I wish Mr. Corrigan well in his important job and ask him to introduce his officials.

Mr. John Corrigan

On my right is Mr. Paul Carty, who is chairman of the National Pensions Reserve Fund Commission, which is the body responsible for the oversight of the fund. On his right is Mr. Michael Cunningham, who is finance director of the NTMA. On my left is Mr. Adrian O'Donovan, who is secretary to the board of the fund, and also Dr. Eileen Fitzpatrick, who is head of alternative investments in the National Pensions Reserve Fund.

I ask Mr. Buckley to open proceedings for us. The full text of Chapters 5 and 42 can be found in the annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General or on the website of the Comptroller and Auditor General at www.audgen.gov.ie.

Mr. John Buckley

Public sector pension entitlements represent a major liability payable by the State to its employees. The entitlements arise under what are known as defined benefit schemes, that is, schemes that fix the benefit payable. This is in contrast with defined contribution schemes that fix the contribution of employers and employees but where the benefit payable ultimately depends on the result of investment of those contributions.

To manage the State budget, it is important for it to be in a position to quantify the extent of the pension liability and to plan the resourcing of State organisations and programmes in the light of all costs associated with employment, including pension costs. Specifically to do so, the State would need to know the extent of the current liability or, in simple terms, how much the State would be prepared to pay somebody in today's money to assume its current pension liabilities; how much of a year's national production or GNP would have to be devoted to meeting the current liabilities and how many years' tax revenue does the liability represent; how much of it in terms of future GNP would be taken up with meeting pension outflows over the next 50 years; by what proportion of salary does the pension entitlement of different types of public servants increase in a single year; and how much is the State committing on top of salary when it recruits a new entrant to the public service.

It was these questions we set out to answer, but before I give the results I need to emphasise two points. First, the liability we report only refers to public servants and certain employees in the voluntary hospital sector. It does not examine the liability arising under the State pension paid by the Department of Social and Family Affairs. Second, we are reporting the value of future pension payments in terms of today's money. However, in practice, the value of future money by reference to current money is constantly changing, and consequently, all liability estimates of the present value of those future payments will vary from day to day depending on the discount rate used which, in turn, is based on the cost of State borrowing.

Over a longer period the figures are also affected by the extent to which pension increases will exceed price inflation and the longevity of pensioners, which, as the report points out, has been increasing. The key assumptions used in the report are set out in the appendices.

The examination concluded the following. At 31 December 2008 and in the conditions then prevailing, the State had a net liability of €101 billion for pensions that had been earned to date after taking account of the value of any related funds. This liability represented an estimated 65% of the GNP of 2008 and at current revenue yields it would represent about three times the tax take of 2009. The gross cash outflows will rise from 1.6% of GNP to 3.6% in 50 years' time. However, when contributions including the new pension related deduction are set against the annual outflows, the net outflows will rise from 0.5% of GNP to 1.8% in the same period.

It costs approximately one fifth in salary terms to meet pension obligations in respect of a typical public servant but an increasing amount of this cost will, in future, be contributed by the employee with the net cost being on average 9%. Within this overall average there are wide variations by sector. Most of these are down to the fact that some sectors earn pensions over a shorter working life, specifically the security sector — gardaí, prison officers and Defence Forces personnel. An alternative way of looking at this is to consider what would need to be set aside to fund the pension of a typical new entrant in each sector. Again, this varies considerably depending upon the time over which the entitlements accrue or, in other words, the working life of the employee. Funding the cost of pensions of teachers and civil servants would cost between 20% and 25% of remuneration with the contribution necessary to meet the benefits in the case of the security sector being considerably higher. Of course, these gross contribution estimates would be offset by contributions and the net cost is outlined in detail in the report. The new pension related deduction will have a considerable impact on funding going forward and will contribute between 7% and 9% of pensionable salary toward the overall pension cost.

The pensions bill is the biggest financial liability of the State. This makes it important that the underlying substantiating information and vouching is readily available. In this respect, the audit concluded that there is clearly a need to address the quality of the data held by State bodies on the pension entitlements of employees and pensioners. To get comprehensive estimates it was necessary to scale up from the available data to a projection for all those serving and on pensions. The fact that it was necessary to do so highlights the need to capture information electronically for all employees and pensioners so that up-to-date information can be available to decision makers. While cases put into payment are reviewed at the stage a pension is granted, it is important to have readily accessible information on commitments and accrued liabilities on an ongoing basis. In addition, moving on to the development of a computerised pensions administration system will really only be feasible when accurate and validated data are available to populate it.

There are a variety of accounting bases and policies employed in the reporting of pension costs. The financial statements of most State-sponsored bodies take account of the full pension costs in the year in which they are earned and record liabilities, including preserved pension liabilities. In contrast, appropriation accounts and the accounts of health agencies, including the HSE, record costs at the point of payment and there is no accounting for the associated accumulated liabilities. Neither the deferred liabilities nor the pension costs of staff are shown in the accounts of vocational education committees and institutes of technology. Overall, there is a lack of consistency in the accounting practice with the depth and nature of reporting depending on the applicability of technical rules and a lack of comprehensive information such that the overall State liability, which is the important aspect to be managed, is not readily available. A cost effective solution should be sought in this regard.

Issues to be resolved in pursuing consistency come down to whether pension accounting is best done at central level or in the accounts of each individual State body. Currently, most State bodies are obliged to have an actuarial assessment of their pension liability and funding to comply with financial reporting standards promulgated by the accounting profession. While this gives the true pension costs for those organisations that apply the standard, it gives rise to costs for each body in having actuarial reviews carried out and there can also be variation in the assumptions used by the individual bodies for valuation purposes.

Ultimately, however, the biggest challenge facing the State is pension funding. The current policy is based largely on meeting obligations as they arise. The case for setting aside funding for future pensions other than for smoothing the outflows has not been found by most other governments to be a compellable one. In general, as one will read in the report, most of the arguments that are put forward for pre-funding relate to transparency and information completeness, which matters could be addressed by adjustments to reporting and accounting practices rather than funding. There would also be increased administration costs associated with the management of funds if they were set aside.

A fundamental change in the composition of the National Pensions Reserve Fund and in the value of its assets has occurred since January 2008. The fund value reduced in 2008 by over 30% due to the drop in investment values as a result of the financial crisis. However, it has recovered again in 2009. The State also directed it to make certain investments as part of the banking stabilisation measures. These investments represented 36% of the fund's value at 30 June 2009. The realisable value of these investments, which are recorded at historic cost in its books, is primarily dependent upon the outcome of the State's banking stabilisation measures and the return to sustainable business models based on adequate capitalisation and funding on the part of the banks.

Vote 7, which also falls to be considered today, records the cost of pension payments to retired civil servants and prison officers, which amounted to €334 million in 2008, a sum that was partly offset by contributions of €83 million. The cost of pension payments to other public servants such as teachers, gardaí and Defence Forces personnel are met from separate voted funds.

I thank Mr. Buckley. Does Mr. Connolly wish to make his opening statement?

Mr. Ciarán Connolly

I thank the Chairman. Before we begin to examine the reports on today's agenda, I thought it would be helpful to outline the role of the Department of Finance in respect of public service pensions and present some of the broader background to public service pension policy with which I and my staff deal.

The Department of Finance administers the Civil Service pension scheme, with payment of benefits charged to Vote 7 being carried out by the Office of the Paymaster General, and accounts for the Vote for which I am Accounting Officer. The Department also develops and implements pension policy for the public sector, in particular, in respect of changes in pension terms and deals with the budgetary aspects of national policy on pensions. We co-ordinate this work with the Department of Social and Family Affairs which handles national pensions policy.

Responsibility for the actual administration of public service schemes is spread over a number of Departments and agencies. For example, the HSE deals with health sector pensions, the Department of Defence manages pensions for members of the Defence Forces, and the Department of Education and Science handles those of primary and secondary school teachers. The Civil Service operates a system of delegation. A total of 12 Departments and offices have delegated responsibility for pension administration. I refer, for example, to the Departments of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and Social and Family Affairs and the Revenue Commissioners. The remaining 23 Departments and offices are handled by the Department of Finance. The delegated arrangement covers approximately 60% of retirements, leaving 40% to be dealt with by the Department of Finance.

The delegated Departments and offices calculate the pension due to the retiring employee and pay lump sums to their staff. They inform the Paymaster General's office of the pension and arrangements are made by that office to continue the payment to the pensioner. The Department of Finance is informed of the payment and checks that the amount is in accordance with the terms and conditions of the pension scheme. In effect, the delegated Departments and offices act as pension trustees for calculating and authorising payment at retirement or on the death of the member and other administrative issues such as pension adjustment orders. In the case of non-delegated Departments, pensions and lump sums are calculated by the Department of Finance. The Department also deals with pensions of all spouses, including members who retired from delegated Departments. All pensions are paid through the Paymaster General's office.

The committee will be aware that public service and private sector pension issues are attracting increasing attention. The recent early retirement scheme introduced by the Government has brought the question of retirement and its expenditure and human resources implications to the fore within the civil and public service. It is worth pointing out that these issues would have arisen in any event over the next five years even if the incentivised scheme for early retirement, ISER, scheme had not been introduced. Given the age profile of those in the service, many of these early retirements would have occurred in the normal course in the next few years.

Looking at the wider policy background, the ageing of the population means that the cost of providing pensions will increase and that public policy will have to be altered to take account of this. The Green Paper on national pensions policy published by the Minister for Social and Family Affairs estimates that the population share of people aged over 65 is expected to more than double from 11% to 28% between now and 2050. Reflecting these developments, the trend in Ireland's old age dependency ratio means that Ireland will move from having six people of working age for every older person to two of working age for every older person by the middle of the century. The expenditure implications are clear. Public spending on pensions will rise from 5% of gross domestic product to over 13% by 2050, an increase of approximately €12 billion in 2007 terms. Of this increase, a little over two thirds can be attributed to social welfare payments with public service pensions accounting for the remainder.

The committee will be aware that Government policy is responding to these developments. As the Minister for Social and Family Affairs and her Department have made clear, the Government is considering the framework document which will address the wider national pensions policy issues. There are also important developments to note on public service pensions. In the 2010 budget, the Minister for Finance announced the introduction of a new single public service pension scheme for all new entrants to the public sector. Legislation to allow for the introduction of the new scheme by the end of the year will be brought forward. The Government's aim is to bring public service pension terms more into line with private sector norms, while ensuring retired staff will have reasonable incomes to meet their needs in retirement.

The Minister outlined the main provisions of the scheme. Under the scheme, pension benefits will be based on career average earnings rather than final salary. There will be a new minimum public service pension age of 66 and this will increase in line with any future changes in the State pension age. The Minister also announced the introduction of a new maximum retirement age of 70. At the same time, the Government will be considering use of the consumer price index as the basis for calculating post-retirement increases for both existing and future pensioners.

In time, all civil and public servants will have the same basic scheme with an appropriate accommodation for the particular terms and conditions which might be required in sectors such as those relating to the Defence Forces and the Garda Síochána. This has the potential for significant administrative efficiencies. A single scheme brings the possibility of more unified administrative arrangements which can build on the changes that are already taking place in areas such as defence and the health sector.

As one of a number of initiatives for transforming the public service, the Government has requested the Department of Finance to develop a plan for a shared pension service. Accordingly, we are working on proposals under which the Department of Finance might reassume responsibility for pensions from some or all of the Departments and offices which have delegated responsibility at present. This will allow staffing and other resources to be used elsewhere. In light of this greater centralisation of services, the Government might consider further initiatives of the same type.

The Minister for Finance announced in the budget that staff retiring in 2010 would have their pension benefits calculated on the basis of the pay rate which applied before the recent public service pay reductions. This step was taken to allow public service management an opportunity to plan for the increased numbers of retirements and deal with any managerial issues which might arise in individual Departments and agencies. Should he consider it necessary to do so, the Minister also has powers to extend this period by statutory instrument. During the course of the year, we will be working with our colleagues in other Departments to assess the likely numbers of retirements and advise the Minister on what action, if any, it might be best to take. We will be contacting Departments shortly to ask them for their assessment of the likely number of retirements and of the effects retirements will have on their organisations. We will be advising the Minister in the light of the information we receive.

The Comptroller and Auditor General's report, which the committee is examining today, presents an actuarial assessment of the costs of public service pensions and is a very valuable contribution to public debate on these issues. The decision to update this assessment and include it in the annual finance accounts is an important step in supporting the debate relating to an issue of major public importance.

May we publish Mr. Connolly's statement?

Mr. Ciarán Connolly

Yes.

I thank Mr. Connolly. I call on Mr. Carty to make his opening statement.

Mr. Paul Carty

I am pleased to be here to discuss the work of the National Pensions Reserve Fund Commission with members. While Ireland undoubtedly faces very serious and immediate budgetary issues, it remains a fact that higher social welfare and public service pension costs, due to population ageing, will put significant pressures on our public finances in the years ahead, long after our current difficulties are resolved. The rationale behind the fund is to start to prepare now for this long-term social and fiscal challenge. It is highly appropriate that the committee is examining the work of the National Pensions Reserve Fund Commission in the context of the wider pensions debate it is conducting today.

When I last appeared before the committee in May of last year, we engaged in a detailed discussion on the fund's 2008 performance. The investment climate has improved considerably since then and the fund experienced a very strong performance in 2009. I understand that a summary of the fund's 2009 performance has been circulated to the committee. I wish to take the opportunity to briefly take members through the main points of the year.

Following the recapitalisation of Bank of Ireland and AIB through the fund in 2009, we divided the fund for management purposes into two sub-portfolios: the discretionary investment portfolio, the investment of which remains the commission's responsibility, and the directed investment portfolio, comprising the preference share investments in the banks which the commission manages on the direction of the Minister for Finance. The discretionary investment portfolio earned a return of 20.9% in 2009. Our equity investments were the primary contributor to this strong performance. Equities, having fallen in March 2009 to their lowest levels since the onset of the financial crisis, sustained a strong rally through the rest of the year as increasing evidence of economic stabilisation emerged and corporate profits exceeded analysts' expectations.

Since the fund's inception in 2001, the investment portfolio has delivered an annualised return of 2.6% per annum. This compares with an annualised return of 0.5% at the end of 2008. This highlights the volatility of investment markets over recent years. In monetary terms the fund has generated €1.5 billion more than has been invested by the Exchequer. While over the long-term we would expect a performance considerably better than this, overall I believe this is a creditable performance given the difficult and unusual decade we have just experienced in investment terms, a decade similar to the 1930s when equities earned a negative return and bonds strongly outperformed.

As committee members will be aware, the directed investments in the banks were funded by €4 billion from the fund and by €3 billion from a front-loading of the Exchequer contributions for 2009 and 2010. We took the decision to avoid selling equities at market lows in March to fund the directed investments and, instead, met the €4 billion required mainly from our cash reserves and sale of our Government bond portfolio. As a result, the investment portfolio had an elevated level of quoted equity investment of 80% following completion of the recapitalisation in May. We took advantage of the strong equity market rally to reduce its absolute risk and exposure to the equity markets through phased equity sales of €2.7 billion through the remainder of the year. The investment portfolio's exposure to the quoted equity markets has been reduced to 63% by year end. Including the bank preference shares and related warrants, which are held at cost and zero, respectively, the fund recorded a return of 11.6% in 2009. At 31 December 2009, the total fund's value stood at €22.3 billion.

I will now talk about the NPRF role in the pensions system. Given the broader context of the committee's discussions today, it might be useful to recap briefly on the role of the National Pensions Reserve Fund and the reasons it was established. The fund had its genesis in three separate reports from 1997 to 2000, namely, the Pensions Board's national pensions policy initiative, the commission on public service pensions report and the report of the Department of Finance's budgetary strategy for ageing group. The objective of the fund is to meet as much as possible of the costs of social welfare and public service pensions from 2025 onwards when these costs are projected to increase dramatically owing to the ageing of the population. I would stress that the fund is designed to contribute to State pensions for all our people as there is a common misperception that it is for public servants only. With regard to the likely increase in pension costs, I note that the Government's Green Paper on pensions, published in October 2007, projected that spending on social welfare and public service pensions would increase from its then level of roughly 5% of GDP to some 13% of GDP by 2050. As the Green Paper notes, this is not a sustainable position.

The National Pensions Reserve Fund represents a move from complete reliance on pay as you go to a partly pre-funded public pension system. It is intended to support and improve the sustainability of the pay as you go system. No money can be drawn down from the fund before 2025, and from then on drawdowns will continue until at least 2055. While any estimate of the contribution of the fund toward future pension costs is sensitive to the rate of return and drawdown pattern assumed, the Pensions Board's national pensions review, published in 2006, projected that the fund's value would peak at around 50% of GNP around 2040 and that payments from the fund would reduce the impact of pension payments on the Exchequer by 3.5% of GNP annually by mid-century.

The National Pensions Reserve Fund was never meant as the sole mechanism for addressing the issues posed by demographic change. Obviously, a range of solutions will be required. However, its establishment is recognition of the fact that increased pension costs represent a real liability — the same as any other — for which we must plan. By maintaining a long-term investment focus in its management of the fund, the commission is determined to play its part in addressing the challenges we face as a nation and in protecting the living standards of our citizens in their retirement.

May we publish Mr. Carty's report?

Mr. Paul Carty

Yes, Chairman.

I thank Mr. Connolly and Mr. Carty for their presentations. I would like to be associated with the comments of the Chairman on the public service provided by Dr. Michael Somers and to thank him for that service over many years. I also congratulate Mr. John Corrigan on his appointment and wish him well with the onerous responsibilities he takes on.

I will begin with the issue of the National Pensions Reserve Fund. It is appropriate we are considering this fund in some detail today because today is the first anniversary of the Government's recapitalisation announcement. On 11 February 2009, the Government announced its decision to put €7 billion into the two main banks and this is something I would like to discuss with Mr. Carty. I accept there are different views among those in this room on the merits or otherwise of that decision, but without getting into the politics of it, this committee has a responsibility to examine the decision from the points of view of appropriate accounting for public money and value for money. We are aware from the report conducted on public service pensions of the huge challenge over the next 50 years or so in terms of funding those pensions. In that regard, the setting up of the National Pensions Reserve Fund was a very welcome initiative. We need all of that fund to meet future pension liabilities. Therefore, it is important to consider the implications of the decision to put €7 billion of that fund into bank recapitalisation. I would like to get more information on that. Some €3 billion of the €7 billion came from the Exchequer and €4 billion came from the National Pensions Reserve Fund. From where exactly did the €3 billion from the Exchequer come?

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

That €3 billion was a payment that was to be made to the NPRF.

My question was from where did that money come?

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

It came through the Central Fund.

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

No, but I will double check on the detail of that. I understand it was from the Central Fund. It may have been short-term borrowings, but I will have to double check that. It was simply an advance of a payment that was due.

I am interested because the purpose of the NPRF was to provide for pensions into the future. If a significant portion of the fund is diverted, it is important to get a full picture of the costs involved and of what the State or taxpayer is forgoing with regard to that decision.

With regard to the performance of the fund generally, I am inclined to congratulate Mr. Carty on its performance over the past year, which has given a return of 21%. I recall that last year when there was some criticism of the poor performance in 2008, Mr. Carty rejected that criticism. He will probably reject my congratulations now on the basis that he takes a long-term view and is just doing his job.

Mr. Paul Carty

Not at all. I will accept the Deputy's congratulations.

Equally, it is our job to examine the implications of Government decisions in terms of loss to the Exchequer and failure to provide value for money. I intend to tease this issue out today. Therefore, I would like clarification from the Department of Finance with regard to the €3 billion, from where it came and the costs associated with it. Given that a return of 21% was achieved on the fund in 2009, but the guaranteed return on the €7 billion directed to be invested in the banks is 8%, is it not reasonable to suggest the NPRF could have achieved 21% if it had invested that €7 billion with its other investments? Again there is a cost to the State — a loss of 13% on a potential return on that sum, which amounts to about another €1 billion and again a cost to the Exchequer. Would Mr. Carty accept this is a reasonable view?

Mr. Paul Carty

Yes, but I will just add to it. That would assume an 8% return. I will refer again to when we spoke last May. This is a long-term view. Equally, the 8% return from the banks is a very significant return. Also, one would expect that the banks — who have a core business which is very successful — would in time, we are confident, work themselves out of this. If one analyses the core business of the banks and what they had 20 years ago, with a very significant market share, one would be confident that the banks will eventually find their feet and come back, and substantial returns will be made within the banks. I am speaking with confidence when we are in the doldrums but we all believe that AIB and Bank of Ireland will rally back because they have a good core business and the nation supports them in every way.

To answer the Deputy's question, taking a one-year view, yes, we would have returned more funding but against that one must take the longer-term view. The other more important question is the crucial importance of the sustainability of the banking sector in Ireland. We have to take the disadvantage of a period of time — for one year — to ensure the sustainability of the banking sector in Ireland for the rest of our lives and this is the balance of measuring the monetary situation and the investment situation in the banks.

Our remit today is to examine the public service pension issue and its funding and whether we are getting value for money with the approach being taken at the moment. Mr. Carty says we have been promised 8% which is a reasonably good return. I ask him to give the detail of that return we have been promised. Exactly what deal was involved there?

Mr. Paul Carty

There is another issue on the preference shares and the 8%. The warrants are attached to those separately. My colleague, Mr. John Corrigan, is perhaps more familiar with the banking transactions in that regard. May I ask Mr. Corrigan to explain the warrants?

Did Mr. Aidan Carrigan get an answer to Deputy Shortall's question? I would presume it was borrowed.

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

I will get that information for the Deputy.

And also the costing.

Mr. John Corrigan

To answer Deputy Shortall about the investment in the banks, special legislation was passed by the Oireachtas, the Financial Measures (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009, which essentially empowered the Minister for Finance to give directions to the commission which up to that point had absolute discretion with regard to the investment of the moneys. The powers bestowed on the Minister in that Act enabled him to give a direction to the commission to take up shares issued by any of the quoted banks, the three potential investees involved being Irish Life and Permanent, AIB and Bank of Ireland. As the Deputy correctly observed, in the event, the investment was made in AIB and Bank of Ireland. The terms of those two investments are identical. They carry a cash coupon of 8%. For those shares to qualify as core tier-one equity — which was an important ingredient to secure the objective of recapitalisation of the banks — it was necessary for payment of that coupon to be discretionary on the part of the banks but the agreement with the banks provided that in the event that the banks did not pay the cash coupon, they would vest in the State an equivalent amount in lieu in ordinary shares. If in the event the cash coupon was not payable, the State would get ordinary shares equivalent in an amount to that cash coupon which for each bank is €280 million per annum.

In addition, each of the share agreements provided that the State would have warrants attached to those shares. The warrants give the right to the State to convert those warrants, after the fifth anniversary of the agreement, into ordinary shares at a stated price. In the case of AIB, the stated price varied between 37.5 cent and 97.5 cent. At the close of business last night, the AIB share price was €1.16. In the case of Bank of Ireland, the so-called strike price for the warrants on the fifth anniversary varied between 20 cent and 52 cent. To correctly answer the Deputy's question re the return, the return is the 8% obviously, plus whatever the value of those warrants turns out to be on the fifth anniversary. If, for illustration purposes, one assumed that the bank share prices at that point in time were of the order of €5 in five years time, then the internal rate of return on those investments would be of the order of 17% or 18% per annum.

I thank Mr. Corrigan for that information. Could we concentrate then on the 8% figure. In each case, Bank of Ireland and AIB, when is that 8% or €280 million due to be paid?

Mr. John Corrigan

The Bank of Ireland coupon is due to be paid on 20 February and the AIB coupon is due to be paid on 13 May.

Does Mr. Corrigan expect to receive it?

Mr. John Corrigan

We expect to receive it. However, under the State assistance rules of the European Union, because the banks are in receipt of State aid, they have been required to submit viability plans which are currently under examination in Brussels. Consistent with the Commission's policy, the Commission has issued a temporary, so-called coupon stopper, which means that certainly the Bank of Ireland coupon will not be paid on the due date. The Commission has indicated that it is not its intention that a permanent coupon-stopper would apply to the State's receipt of that coupon but this is pending the delivery of its verdict on the viability plans which have been submitted by the two banks.

My concern is the protection of public moneys and getting value for public money. If a decision is taken to invest €7 billion of public money into the two main banks, we were promised that there would be an adequate return on this and that the public interest would be safeguarded. Now Mr. Corrigan is saying that the €280 million which Bank of Ireland was due to pay out on the cash coupon is unlikely to be paid, certainly by next Saturday week, on 20 February. When does Mr. Corrigan expect the European Commission to come to a conclusion on the viability plans?

Mr. John Corrigan

The question of the State aid and the viability plans is being handled by the Department of Finance. There is a great deal of to and fro going on between the banks, the Department and the European Commission. I am not competent to give an estimated date of when those viability plans will be approved.

Does anyone from the Department have a view on this? We are talking about a significant amount of money and I thought we might have more up-to-date information. Regarding the agreement to recapitalise the banks, what are the arrangements in the event of either bank defaulting on the payment of the cash coupon?

Mr. John Corrigan

If the coupons are not paid, in the subscription agreement, which governs the terms and conditions of the shareholding, there is provision for a payment in kind. Effectively, this means the banks have to vest in the State an amount of ordinary shares in their respective institutions equivalent to the amount of that coupon. To put that into simple English, if Bank of Ireland does not pay the coupon then the question of the payment in kind arises and if that coupon is not paid then we would need to get €280 million in ordinary shares in Bank of Ireland and on each subsequent coupon date another €280 million and so on.

Is Mr. Corrigan saying that by next Saturday week if Bank of Ireland has not paid €280 million to the National Pensions Reserve Fund, the NTMA will then acquire ordinary shares to that value?

Mr. John Corrigan

That is the entitlement of the pension fund, but from discussions we have had — or at least the Department of Finance has had — with the European Commission Directorate-General for Competition in Brussels this coupon stopper is not intended to be a permanent feature. So our disposition would be to allow a period until such time as the Commission delivered its permanent judgment on the plan. If as part of that permanent judgment there is a permanent coupon stopper, then obviously the pension reserve fund will have to look. It is automatically triggered under the agreement that it will have to get those shares. Given that the Commission has said it is not its intention that would be the case, we have to be patient about these things.

It is all very well being patient. We are talking about a considerable amount of public money. The public purse needs to be protected and we were promised that it would be protected. At what point does that trigger occur automatically in the event of default?

Mr. John Corrigan

Strictly speaking, under the terms of the agreement it triggers on the payment date, but the European Commission has indicated that it is not its intention that the payment of the coupon would be deferred indefinitely. It would be better for the pension fund if it got the cash flow. So we should not look to collect the shares.

Taxpayers could take a different view. It is either an automatic trigger or it is not.

Mr. John Corrigan

The Commission has accepted that the payment of the coupon technically is, so to speak, collateral damage on the back of its general ruling on this matter. The purpose of the Commission stopper is as follows. It is not aimed specifically at the pension reserve fund's coupon. It is aimed at other hybrid instruments which the banks have issued and the Commission's view is that those other hybrid instruments should, so to speak, share in the burden of recapitalising these banks. Technically in the process of stopping the coupon payable on the other hybrid instruments——

I do not understand what hybrid instruments are.

Mr. John Corrigan

A hybrid instrument is an instrument which is halfway between an equity and a bond. It is quite close to equity but bears all the characteristics of a bond in that it has a fixed coupon, whereas in equity one must declare a dividend. It is a halfway house, but it would be seen as a much riskier instrument than a bond. The Commission's view is that as part of the burden sharing, the holders of those hybrid instruments should share in the recapitalisation effort. Technically the State's preference shares constitute hybrid instruments. Therefore they are temporarily the subject of the coupon stopper. The Commission has made it clear that it is not its intention that this would permanently be the case.

That is fine and the Commission will do whatever it needs to do and there may well be very good reasons for it putting a stop to the payment of the coupon. That is not the issue of concern to me and it is not the issue of concern to the general public. The public has taken an enormous hit over the banking crisis. People in the most appalling circumstances have lost their jobs and others have taken significant pay cuts, while at the same time the Government is putting €7 billion into the two banks. We are entitled to be assured absolutely, first, that the investment is protected and, second, that we will get an adequate return on that investment. That is my perspective on the issue. I want Mr. Corrigan and his colleagues, as the people charged with responsibility for very significant funds, to tell me that next Saturday week, if Bank of Ireland has not paid over the €280 million that it owes the taxpayer, that will automatically trigger a process whereby the NTMA can take ordinary shares to the value of €280 million.

Mr. John Corrigan

If the coupon is not paid the pension fund is entitled to get equivalent amount in ordinary shares.

Will we get an equivalent amount in ordinary shares?

Mr. John Corrigan

We will get either the cash or the equivalent amount in ordinary shares.

Will that be on 20 February under the terms of the agreement?

Mr. John Corrigan

No, because we have pragmatically taken the view that it would be preferable to get the cash. We are happy to allow some leeway in that respect until the Commission process works its way out.

So it is not an automatic figure.

Mr. John Corrigan

It is an automatic. The question of the value for money either in the form of cash or in the form of equivalent shares is not in any doubt. I assure the committee and the Deputy of that.

What is a reasonable time to allow Bank of Ireland to come up with the money?

Mr. John Corrigan

A matter of weeks. If I knew when the Commission would deliver its verdict on the banks' viability plans I would be in a better position to answer that question more accurately.

Does Mr. Corrigan take my point? That is beside the point in many ways. The taxpayer, willingly or not, went along with the proposal to invest €7 billion in the banks.

Mr. John Corrigan

The Deputy is concerned, understandably, with value for money. One way or the other the State, through the pension fund, will either get €280 million in cash or get €280 million equivalent in ordinary shares in the bank. Because of the European Commission's decision there is a timing issue around that, but the question of the value for money either in cash or in specie is not up for debate.

What is the legal status of the automatic trigger? If Mr. Corrigan says it is an automatic trigger, I would have thought that if the bank did not stump up the €280 million by 20 February, the following week ordinary shares to the value of €280 million should be transferred straightaway. Is that not the case under the agreement? What room is there for discretion?

Mr. John Corrigan

The discretion can be the subject of negotiation between the two bodies. There is no question but that the €280 million will be received either in cash or in shares. That is not up for debate. Timing of the payment of the cash or the vesting of the shares is a matter of discussion between us and Bank of Ireland.

I am concerned about the timing of it. How long will it be left if the European Commission decides that this is a permanent stopper? Will the NTMA move immediately?

Mr. John Corrigan

If it is a permanent stopper — we are advised that is not the Commission's intention — clearly the payment will have to be made in kind in the form of the shares.

How long is the NTMA prepared to wait for the European Commission to make a decision?

Mr. John Corrigan

A matter of weeks.

Deputy, I am just watching the time.

I have a few more questions, if that is all right. The fees for managing the fund were €20 million in 2008 and €23 million in 2007. Given that some €7 billion of the fund is not being invested, and it is not a matter for the investment managers, what are the fees expected to be in the coming year?

Mr. Paul Carty

In terms of the fees, I do not know where exactly the Deputy is getting her figures from. The total fees were €25 million in 2008. The provisional figure for the fees in 2009 is €21 million.

What is projected for this year?

Mr. Paul Carty

The investment managers' fees were €20 million in 2008. That figure decreased to €13 million in 2009. There has been a reduction of €7 million.

On 31 December 2008, the fund was holding property worth €413 million. What happened to that property? What is the current value of it? What were the losses on it?

Mr. Paul Carty

My colleague, Ms Fitzpatrick, will respond to those questions.

Ms Eileen Fitzpatrick

The current value of the property portfolio is €480 million. The value of our property portfolio declined during 2009.

I have a figure of €413 million for 31 December 2008.

Ms Eileen Fitzpatrick

That is the most recent official figure, from the published accounts for 2008. The current figure for property is €480 million.

What kind of hit has been taken on the property portfolio at the end of 2008?

Ms Eileen Fitzpatrick

The value of the property portfolio we had at the end of 2008 has decreased by approximately 46%.

Ms Fitzpatrick is talking about losses on property of approximately €200 million.

Ms Eileen Fitzpatrick

Yes.

I would like to ask Mr. Connolly briefly about the other pensions issue. The accrued pension liability figure of €101 billion, which has been arrived at by the Comptroller and Auditor General, is obviously very significant. In his report, the Comptroller and Auditor General criticised the information systems in the Department. He specifically mentioned that the Department does not include its pension liability in its accounting — it does not engage in accrual accounting, as most bodies do. Does the Department accept that criticism? Does it intend to move, or has it already moved, towards a system of accrual accounting?

Mr. Ciarán Connolly

We accept, up to a point, the sections of the report relating to our records. It has been decided to include the figure in the annual finance accounts. We are not in the process of a general move to accrual accounting.

Why is that the case? Is it not standard practice?

Mr. Ciarán Connolly

It is a question of the basis of Exchequer funding and the annual Estimates process. We work on cash-based accounts. Some progress has been made with moving in the general direction of accrual accounting, without a complete switch to it, in terms of what now appears in our accounts. There is need for greater transparency on information in general. The movement towards shared pension services, when we will bring together all the pension administration services in a single service over time, will contribute in this regard. Apart from generating greater efficiencies, it should lead to greater transparency and better records.

Surely it should not be necessary for the Comptroller and Auditor General to commission a specialist report to get a figure for the State's pension liability.

Mr. Ciarán Connolly

We would previously have had our own estimate of that figure.

Surely the figure should be contained in the annual accounts.

Mr. Ciarán Connolly

It is intended to publish the figure in the finance accounts in the future. In the past, we provided an estimate of the overall liability.

On the estimated accrued liability for public service pensions of €101 billion net, has any calculation been done of the impact on that liability of the proposed changes to public service pensions? I refer to changes like post-1995 PRSI arrangements for public servants; the recent significant pay cuts, which will have significant implications for pension liability; the change proposed in the budget, whereby a career average will be used when determining pensions; the change in the public service pension age to 66 years; and the proposal to link pension increases to the consumer price index. What kind of impact will such changes have on the accrued pension liability?

Mr. Ciarán Connolly

We have not necessarily costed them all at this stage. We have yet to work through the details. The impact of the changes will be determined by the accrual rate, for example. The change to a consumer price index basis for pension increases, for example, will reduce the accrued liability figure from approximately €108 billion to approximately €87 billion. We will cost the other elements of the revised scheme as we work through them. While the general principles have been set out, many of the details have yet to be worked out. Obviously we will have consultation with the staff interests. Factors such as the annual accrual rate will play a part in determining the impact of the overall change.

Mr. John Reilly

The main element is the possible change in the rate of pension increase in the future.

Is that the main difference?

Mr. John Reilly

The €108 billion figure, generally speaking, refers to the value of benefits accrued by serving staff.

Mr. John Reilly

The terms for new recruits will not largely change the €108 billion figure this year. They will gradually affect the figure in future years, as they come on stream. The main factor that might change the €108 billion figure is the rate of future pension increases. The €108 billion figure largely relates to people who are already in the system. People who are already on pensions will not be affected by the new terms. Serving staff may be only slightly affected by the new terms.

I assume the move to calculating pension entitlement on the basis of career average will have a significant impact on pension liability.

Mr. John Reilly

Yes, as staff accrue liability over the years to come. Last year's liability is now set. As new stuff comes on stream next year, their liability will be less than it would otherwise have been, due to the change in terms.

In the budget, the Minister for Finance signalled changes to public service pensions. He promised that legislation in that area would be published early this year. Is the Department still on target for that? When does it expect to publish the Bill?

Mr. Ciarán Connolly

We are still on target.

Mr. John C. O’Connell

We are on target for it.

When does the Department expect the Bill to be published?

Mr. John C. O’Connell

We are working on the legislation. Obviously, we have to advise the Minister and the Government. They will have to take a decision on the matter. The timetable announced in the budget provides that we should be able to introduce the scheme at the end of the year. Everything is operating in accordance with that plan at the moment.

Have the officials from the Department of Finance found that €3 billion yet? No. All right.

I welcome the officials from the NTMA, the Department of Finance and the NPRF. I wish to follow up on a couple of points on the National Pensions Reserve Fund, NPRF. I congratulate Mr. Corrigan on his appointment as chief executive of the National Treasury Management Agency. I concur with the Chairman's remarks on Dr. Somers. He and I in particular had a forthright exchange at the committee last year. One aspect of the fund on which I wish to concentrate is its performance. The point has been made that it might have been possible to get 21% on the €4 billion. However, from reading the opening statement it appears the €4 billion was held in a cash fund in the pension fund. In that case one is talking about 2% or 3%.

Mr. Paul Carty

It was divided between cash and bonds.

Mr. Carty is the expert but the decision not to sell equities and to use the cash fund and front-load for the other €3 billion was a particularly wise decision. Perhaps Mr. Carty would explain the thinking behind that.

Mr. Paul Carty

That is true. Given the uncertainty in the marketplace we kept our cash and any funding received from the Exchequer. In addition, we slowed down our investment in properties and equities. There is an element of truth in the point about a lesser return than21%. Deputy O'Brien is correct in what he said. Some of the substantial cash fund was generating a lesser sum on deposit with the Central Bank.

The NPRF decided not to consolidate a loss by selling equities to get into the banks.

Mr. Paul Carty

That is correct.

The reason for the major uplift in the performance figures is because the NTMA did not do that.

Mr. Paul Carty

Yes.

Mr. Corrigan has gone through the matter in some detail of the warrants held with the two banks and the 8% coupon. That matter is with the European Commission at the moment on the basis that the banks have had to submit viability plans to the Commission due to state aid rules. We are waiting for the Commission's decision on that.

Mr. John Corrigan

That is correct. The European Commission requires any bank in receipt of state aid to submit what is called a viability plan. We are awaiting the decisions on those viability plans.

Effectively, the reason why the NTMA might not pull the trigger as such on Saturday week, is because the Commission has not ruled on the viability plans. The NTMA wants to see what the ruling is and to get the imprimatur of the Commission.

Mr. John Corrigan

We are in a state of limbo at the moment. We have taken the view that it is wise to await the permanent decision, so to speak, of the Commission, more especially as it has said it is not its intention to stop the payment of the dividend in cash.

Am I right in assuming we do not expect this to be an annual event, that this is because it is the first coupon that will be paid? We would not expect the Commission to ask the banks to submit a viability plan every single year prior to the renewal date for the payment of the coupon.

Mr. John Corrigan

No, there is one viability plan on the back of the particular package of state aid which the banks received. Once the Commission rules on that, unless there are future packages of state aid, which no one would anticipate, then the question of the coupon stopper does not arise in the future.

Perhaps my question should be addressed to the NPRF. In the context of the guaranteed 8% return on the investment of the moneys into the two main banks, are there any funds in the marketplace currently that give investors a guaranteed 8% return?

Mr. John Corrigan

I am not aware of any funds that give a guaranteed return of 8%. That said, in fairness, the cash payment of the coupon is not guaranteed in cash but it is guaranteed either in cash or in kind.

It is calculated at 8%. However, if the NPRF decided to invest other cash deposits it holds, it would not be possible to find a product that would give a guaranteed 8% return.

Mr. Paul Carty

Certainly not.

That would be seen as a particularly high rate of guaranteed return. What would be the best guaranteed return for a bond currently in the market?

Mr. John Corrigan

German Government bonds, which are regarded as the benchmark in the eurozone, pay less than 4%.

So it is double the best guaranteed rate available on the market.

On the warrants, Mr. Corrigan outlined that the maximum for AIB was 37.5 cent. Is that correct in regard to the deal that was struck and that Bank of Ireland was set at 20 cent to 52 cent?

Mr. John Corrigan

No, I said there were two prices at which the warrants apply. In the case of AIB, 15% of the 25% entitlement of the warrants is exercisable at 97.5 cent and the balance, that is 10%, at 37.5 cent. In the case of Bank of Ireland, the first 15% is exercisable at 52 cent and the balance at 20 cent. The AIB share price is currently trading at €1.16 and the Bank of Ireland share price at the close of business last night was €1.30. Those warrants are exercisable on the fifth anniversary of the subscription agreement.

The fund value at the end of 2009 for the national pension reserve fund was €22.3 billion. A return of 11.6% was recorded in 2009.

Mr. Paul Carty

Including the direct investments.

Without the direct investments one is looking at a return of €20.9 billion. How does that compare against the benchmark of an average fund manager?

Mr. Paul Carty

The average fund manager would be about the same.

So the return is average.

Before I move on, an issue was raised last year that the NTMA was considering whether it would introduce a defined benefit scheme as a hybrid scheme within the organisation. Employees joined on a defined contribution basis. Mr. Somers mentioned last year that they were considering the viability of introducing a defined benefit scheme. Has that happened?

Mr. John Corrigan

What was decided was to introduce a defined benefit scheme based on a career average with a retirement age of 65, the cost of which by way of employer contribution was the same as the employer was contributing under the defined contribution arrangements.

We discussed this at length last year. Is it correct that people who joined the NTMA did so on the basis of joining a defined contribution scheme?

Mr. John Corrigan

No. When the NTMA was set up it had a defined benefit arrangement. In 2004 to 2005 the defined benefit scheme was closed and any employees who joined after that did so on the basis of a defined contribution arrangement, which was a temporary measure that lasted a number of years while we were seeking ways to reduce the pension contribution cost to the agency. The contribution made by the agency as employer to the defined contribution arrangements for those employees who joined after 2004 represented a cost to the employer of approximately 10% per annum. In looking at revised arrangements we opted for the contribution of 10% per annum. The new scheme that has been introduced involves no extra cost to the employer but we believe it is a fairer scheme for employees. The contribution rate is the same as the defined contribution——

The contribution rate is the same and was introduced as a temporary measure in 2004, as Mr. Corrigan stated. Anyone who joined thereafter knew he was joining a defined contribution scheme. This is what was discussed with Dr. Somers last year. Last year it was indicated that this was just being looked at.

Mr. John Corrigan

Yes.

When was it actually implemented?

Mr. John Corrigan

It would have been implemented in January of this year.

In January of this year. On what date was the NTMA here last year?

Mr. John Corrigan

In May.

May. Mr. Corrigan is telling me the contribution rate of 10% per annum is the same for defined contribution and defined benefit schemes, but the actual liability is much higher. It was promised, on the basis of reintroducing the defined benefit scheme, that there would be a defined retirement package for the agency's staff. Therefore, the liability would be much greater than with a defined contribution because that is based on market returns.

Mr. John Corrigan

No. The actuarial advice we got is that based on the age profile of the defined contribution employees who are switching to the defined benefit arrangement, and having regard to the facts that the retirement age is 65 and that the benefits are based on career averaging, the appropriate contribution is no greater than it was under the defined contribution arrangement.

Okay. The trend for the past ten or 15 years for private companies is to move away from defined benefit schemes. I understand completely the reality of career averaging. Has it been linked to the CPI? Is there indexation?

Mr. John Corrigan

It is linked to the CPI with a ceiling. I cannot remember precisely what the ceiling is but it is of the order of 4% or 5%.

I will move on from this. Mr. Corrigan is happy to tell me today there is no increased cost or increased liability to the NTMA on the basis of the reintroduction of a defined benefit plan for staff in the agency.

Mr. John Corrigan

That is the actuarial advice that we have got.

Okay, we might have a look at it. Mr. Corrigan answered the question and that is fine.

Mr. Aidan Carrigan has returned.

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

My initial hesitancy in responding was because I was trying to work out the difference between planned and additional expenditure associated with the €3 billion. I have now managed to confirm that, of that, the €1.5 billion was the 2009 planned payment to NTMA which would take place in the normal course of events. Some €1.5 billion was brought forward. The €1.5 billion brought forward was brought forward 12 months in advance. I am advised that the additional cost associated with that expenditure over 12 months would be in the region of €75 million.

Is that every year?

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

No, it was brought forward 12 months in advance. It would have been incurred 12 months later in any event as a normal annual contribution to the NTMA. The cost of bringing it forward was €75 million.

To move on to Mr. Connolly and his team, the proposed changes in budget 2010 relating to career averaging and the CPI have been covered by Mr. Reilly. We are facing a proposed reduction in the pensions accrued liability from €108 billion to €87 billion, subject to the changes.

Mr. Ciarán Connolly

That is the result of the change from the CPI.

From the CPI only.

Mr. Ciarán Connolly

Yes.

What about career averaging?

Mr. Ciarán Connolly

That will affect future liabilities, which would be less than they otherwise would be.

Have we projected that at all? Bearing in mind the future liability from 2025 onwards, on the basis of the other changes how much do we believe the liability will shrink by? Are there figures on this?

Mr. Ciarán Connolly

We do not have figures on that as yet because it depends on the detail of the scheme. The critical element is probably the annual accrual rate. That figure has not yet been determined but it is obviously a factor that we will be looking at as we move forward. There are obviously other factors associated with the contribution rate.

Sure.

The Comptroller and Auditor General and Deputy Shortall have mentioned that each Department is looking at its actual pension cost in a given year. Is there any reason it is not included in a Department's Vote each year? I refer to the contribution and the liability.

Mr. Ciarán Connolly

The Vote involves the Oireachtas being asked to——

To pass. The Comptroller and Auditor General made the valid point that it is very difficult for a Department to examine its pensions liability.

Mr. John C. O’Connell

There is a broader accounting issue, of which I am sure the Comptroller and Auditor General is aware. It concerns the accounting arrangements in respect of the Votes as a whole. One could argue in principle that one should be accruing all assets and liabilities in respect of each area. I suspect the committee is aware that there are moves afoot to introduce elements of accrual accounting across all Votes.

Mr. John C. O’Connell

As part of that, we are examining the possibility of extending the information on pensions. Obviously the inclusion of the figures within the Department of Finance accounts is a step in that direction. I do not think we have looked at the pension issue and the question of including an accrued sum in each Vote independently of these other exercises. What is happening, by and large, is part of the general moves to improve the information that is available in the accounting arrangements. We see the Comptroller and Auditor General's report and analysis as a step on which we want to build. We will be including the liability amount in the finance accounts each year and if more information becomes available it will obviously be published as it becomes available. I do not see any reason in principle for not doing so. It is important that we keep an eye on the wider issues. We need to ensure that what might happen in the pensions area is in step with the other accounting arrangements that are being introduced.

Absolutely. It is crucial to have systems for the capturing of data.

Mr. John C. O’Connell

Yes.

The sooner we move towards that, the better.

Mr. Ciarán Connolly

Yes.

The Financial Measures (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 allowed the transfer of a number of State-sponsored bodies' and universities' schemes to the NTMA. There are assets of approximately €1.7 billion and liabilities of approximately €3 billion. These are 2008 figures and they have probably increased. How close are we to the transfer of the schemes to the NTMA? Has it occurred in respect of any of the agencies?

Mr. John Corrigan

My understanding is that roughly half of that transfer has taken place. It was to be spread over two years, 2009 and 2010. It was to count against the Exchequer contributions. In other words, we got paid in kind, so to speak. Roughly half of the transfers have been done.

Is the NTMA managing approximately half of them now? They have been transferred to the NTMA.

Mr. John Corrigan

They have been transferred into the National Pensions Reserve Fund and, as such, have been absorbed into the fund. They are in the process of being transitioned to make their deployment consistent with the general deployment within the fund. I refer to the discretionary portfolio.

Is the NTMA on track for the remaining transfer to occur within 2010?

Mr. John Corrigan

Yes, the work is proceeding. There is no reason to believe the second tranche will not be transferred this year.

Have the universities' schemes been moved over yet?

Mr. John Corrigan

Some of them have. The Maynooth and Trinity College transfers have taken place.

The assets that have been transferred include those of the Arts Council, Bord Bia, CERT, FÁS, the IDA, the Irish Goods Council, regional tourism organisations, SFADCo, NUI Maynooth and Trinity College Dublin. The remaining transfers, to be made this year, include some further assets in respect of Trinity College, the assets of UCC and UCD, the NUI general pension scheme, and the assets of the IPA and the ESRI.

Perhaps the Department of Finance can answer my next question, which arose some weeks ago. I do not want to dwell on it because we will be dealing with it again in a couple of weeks. The purchase of additional years and notional service for pensions are mentioned in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General. In respect of a lack of information on added years the Comptroller and Auditor General states that this "does not have a significant impact on the accrued liability, since added years are only granted to a small number of employee types". On foot of passing the Financial Measures (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill earlier this year, the Department of Finance issued a directive to any of the schemes that were to be transferred to the NTMA. The directive basically stated that where there was discretion within the schemes, it was to err on the side of the State. How has the Department been tracking that? I have a major issue with the fact that years continue to be added on a discretionary basis in respect of schemes that are transferring over to the NTMA, even though the Department of Finance requested the agency not to do so. Is the Department of Finance doing anything about this?

Mr. Ciarán Connolly

Under the 2009 Act, discretionary powers in the schemes are now vested in the Minister, who is supposed to take full account of the cost involved. The Department and the HEA will examine how discretions will apply in particular cases. Discretions for added years may have already been exercised in letters of appointment or contracts, or by the refusal to allow members purchase AVCs. They are finding that people already have entitlements——

That is fine prior to the date, but a memo was sent from the Department of Finance to the trustees of all these pension schemes to say that discretion should err on the side of the State. Can somebody confirm that to me? It was confirmed by the Department of Finance about four or five weeks ago. Is anyone aware of that?

Mr. Tony Jordan

That is a fact. We advised the NTMA on that.

The Department of Finance provided that advice, but years are still being added on a discretionary basis for schemes that are transferring over to the NTMA.

Mr. David Owens

The funds were advised that no changes could be made to schemes which would put additional pressure on the funds, following the passing of the enabling legislation. If there were discretions in the schemes, they passed to the two Ministers and they will be operated in a prudent manner. As Mr. Connolly said, if people have letters of appointment, have been prevented from taking out AVCs or have pension benefit statements which made explicit their added years, then we are not in a position to withdraw them from such people.

If it is possible, I would like to get a copy of the note that went from the Department of Finance to the schemes that were being transferred over. I would like to see exactly what it states. I am not disputing what Mr. Owens is saying, but the bottom line is that the Department of Finance stated that the agency was to err on the side of the State for discretionary purposes so that it would not add further stress to the liabilities of the scheme. However, the way in which that has been done is by enhancing someone's benefit at retirement by up to a sixth of his or her pensionable service, something that is happening in many of the agencies and in a number of the schemes that will be transferred over to Mr. Corrigan in the next six or seven months.

It is up to one third.

Mr. Ciarán Connolly

This is only happening where people have perpetual entitlements.

It is up to a third in some cases as ten years are added.

Mr. Ciarán Connolly

That should only happen where people have contractual entitlements.

That is not the case, especially in the case of universities. We have had correspondence that added years are still occurring at no cost to the employee, and the years are being added at retirement. This happened in October, November and December. If the Department of Finance sends out an advisory memo on this, why is it not being followed? The schemes are being transferred over to Mr. Corrigan and Mr. Carty, where the liabilities are further stressed, even though we have stated in enacted legislation that it should not happen and the Minister has stated that it should not happen.

Mr. Ciarán Connolly

My understanding is that it should only be happening where people have a legal entitlement to it, but we will send a note to the Deputy to clarify the position.

I would like to see this clarified because it is something we are taking up separately with the universities. I will get the answer that it is custom and practice, but custom and practice is not the same as legal entitlement. That is all I am getting from the universities.

Mr. Ciarán Connolly

I agree.

I would like the Department and the NTMA to make contact with the universities, because years of service are being added at all senior grades that I have seen by up to one sixth, and in some cases up to one third. This is raising retirement lump sums and their annuities and is adding to the future liabilities of the fund. That should not be happening.

Up to ten years' service are being added in some cases. We would like a handle on this before we meet the universities on 13 May.

Mr. Tony Jordan

The point is that they are only getting things to which they are entitled. They may be statutorily entitled to them. The advice that went out to the Departments was that they do not increase costs. The Deputy stated that the advice was that they err on the side of the State.

That is a cost in the given year, so it is not an additional cost to the future pension liability.

Mr. Tony Jordan

They are only getting that to which they are entitled.

I am putting the witnesses on notice that the information provided to this committee does not show that. They are getting more than their entitlement but the excuse being given is that this is custom and practice and that people had a reasonable expectation they would get this. A reasonable expectation is completely different to an entitlement.

Mr. Ciarán Connolly

That is not our interpretation but we will send the Deputy a note on it.

It would be helpful if we got it before 13 May because delegations from the universities are coming in then and we will be tackling this issue with them. The Department of Finance and the NTMA should be looking into this because it impacts them. While it is mentioned in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General that this does not have a significant impact on accrued liability, I do not care because it still has an impact and it should not be happening.

What is the maximum retirement age of senior university staff?

Mr. John C. O’Connell

It is 65 years of age. It varies from case to case.

If they get ten years added, they do not have to be appointed until they are 35 years of age.

Mr. John C. O’Connell

That is the professional added years regime that operates in the universities and elsewhere. There may be a misunderstanding about the position, and we can explain the position in the note to the committee. As far as we understand it, the schemes in question at the older universities have been closed since 2004. There are two categories of pensioner. People who were recruited after that time are now in another scheme and are entitled to the standard added years. For older employees, as outlined in the letter supplied by the Accounting Officer, it depends on the piece of paper belonging to the person and the commitment given to that person. We can outline that in the letter to the committee and to the Deputy.

That is fine and I understand what Mr. O'Connell is saying, but our problem is that most of these are discretionary schemes. However, there is no discretion. In every single instance that I have seen, where someone is retiring from a senior grade, he or she gets added years. That is not in accordance with the rules of the schemes.

Mr. John C. O’Connell

There could be another issue involved. We are discovering in the university cases that there was a discretion, but it has actually been exercised. The discretion was exercised at the point of appointment or during the person's employment. The discretion was exercised by the universities to grant the added years or to give a promise of added years. The situation has altered with the current legislation, but if the discretion has been exercised and the person has a bit of paper, the position is not that clear. That has been outlined in the letter supplied by the Accounting Officer.

It is a detailed letter and I do not agree with every detail in it. I suppose one could ask the question in another way. Prior to the transfer of the assets of €1.7 billion, with liabilities of probably more than €3 billion which will continue to grow, the Department of Finance, in effect, sent a memo to say not to stress the liabilities. Nothing has happened. Another way of asking the question is what the universities did to reduce the costs of the pensions that would be transferred to Mr. Corrigan and Mr. Carty. Did they do anything? No. I do not expect Mr. O'Connell to answer.

Mr. John C. O’Connell

We will outline the position as we understand it in the note. The question hangs on what is the discretion. The net point is that if a discretion has not been exercised at the point of the transfer, it should not be exercised to increase the costs. That is our view and that was the point of the instruction we gave. What we are discovering as people begin to retire is that there are instances where it appears that a discretion has been exercised but it is not clear-cut.

Have we found instances where a discretion was not exercised and where added years at a senior level in the universities were not given?

Mr. John C. O’Connell

I personally am not aware of that.

Mr. David Owens

Added years were not given in every instance. The universities have supplied information to that effect through the Accounting Officer in the Department of Education and Science. In one of the colleges the scheme had been permitting retirements from age 60 on an early retirement basis but that has been stopped. The age has been increased to 65. That action was taken before the funds but it has been maintained. A saving discretion was used.

It would be helpful if clarification could be sought.

What is the extra deficit to the State in taking on those pension schemes?

Mr. David Owens

The latest estimate of the value of the assets in the funds is approximately €1.9 billion. The valuation of the assets of the funds transferred in 2009 is currently under way. The estimated figure for liabilities is approximately €3.1 billion. Updated valuations will be available when the end of year accounts are finalised.

Has an estimate been carried out on the total deficit being taken on by the State when all of the schemes have been transferred?

Mr. David Owens

That is it.

It is appropriate that we pay tribute to Dr. Michael Somers. He was a fine public servant. We can truly say of him, he did the State some service. We will leave that on the record for him. I wish Mr. Corrigan the best of luck in filling his shoes.

To turn briefly to the banks, it is important to clear up one point in case there is any suggestion that might lead to scare stories about the banks not having money. It is purely a question of the European Commission raising the issue of it being one of a number of hybrid coupons.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan took the Chair.

Mr. John Corrigan

Absolutely. This applies to the class of security called hybrid securities, which as I explained are securities that fall half-way between equities and bonds.

Is it classified as tier 1 or 2?

Mr. John Corrigan

In our case it is tier 1. Deputy O'Keeffe is correct; it is not a case of the bank not being able to write us the cheque. It is simply that this stopper has been put on all dividends paid to this class of share in the case of those banks whose viability plans are under examination. That is not a policy that is peculiar to this country. It is a policy that the Commission in Brussels has applied in all such cases.

There should not be any reason why it would not give the approval, because the payment of the 8% cash dividend on the State's preference shares was an important element in the Commission's original approval for State aid being provided to the banks.

Mr. John Corrigan

Absolutely.

The Commission required it at that time.

Mr. John Corrigan

Absolutely. The coupon stopper is aimed at the other hybrid securities holders, as part of what——

Is it possible that the ability of the banks to write cheques will be affected by the fact of the discount when they pass loans on to NAMA because of the impact of that on their capitalisation? Is it not possible as the year unfolds that they will find it difficult to meet the warrants?

Mr. John Corrigan

Those are two separate questions. One relates to the warrants, which is something that is exercisable at a future date. That is a right that the State will enjoy come hell or high water.

On the servicing of the coupons, the questions that were asked previously were about the coupon stopper currently imposed by the Commission. The Commission has indicated that it is not its intention that it will be a permanent feature of whatever outcome there will be to the banks viability plans.

The other question relates to the capital needs of the banks later this year. The capital needs will depend on the outcome of the NAMA exercise and possibly to some extent on the outcome of the Commission's ruling on the viability plans, not in the context of another coupon stopper, but they could take other measures that could affect the balance sheets of the banks. We have to wait and see what those are.

The question Deputy Jim O'Keeffe asked me was in regard to the coupon that is due on 20 February.

Mr. John Corrigan

There is no question but that the bank can write that cheque.

There is no issue there. On a technical point, it is probably academic that the Commission would decline to allow the payment and that the NTMA would be then entitled to activate the alternative payment mechanism through the allocation of equity shares. At what price would that be done? Would it be at the special rate that was provided for in the agreement, which in the case of Bank of Ireland was between 20 cent and 52 cent or would it be at the current rate, for example, €1.30?

Deputy Bernard Allen resumed the Chair.

Mr. John Corrigan

No, one would get them for nothing because it is a payment in kind.

How many would the NTMA get?

Mr. John Corrigan

One would get the number of shares equivalent in value to €280 million, that being the value of the coupon.

Based on what rate?

Mr. John Corrigan

If today's share price is €1, then one would get the number of shares equivalent in value to €280 million.

Equivalent to the current share price.

Mr. John Corrigan

At the current share price.

Not the price in the agreement relating to the State's entitlement to transfer the preference money into equity money.

Mr. John Corrigan

No, there are two discrete provisions, one is the payment in kind which is triggered in the event that the coupon is not paid in cash. That is at the current share price. The warrants are at a predetermined share price——

Could we take advantage of the predetermined warrant price?

Mr. John Corrigan

They are in different boxes.

If we could, it would probably suit us if they did not pay. I wish to return to the pension fund generally. The witnesses might recollect from last year that there was a somewhat jaundiced view on it. I am not sure that we are doing as well as is projected. According to one figure from the NTMA the fund's value at the end of 2008 was €16.1 billion while the total Exchequer contribution was €16.9 billion. After eight years the value of the fund is less than the amount of the Exchequer contribution. That is a pretty miserable performance.

Mr. Paul Carty

At the end of 2009, the value of the fund is €1.5 billion more than the Exchequer contribution.

I am talking about the report to the end of 2008.

Mr. Paul Carty

Sorry, I was updating the Deputy to 2009.

Mr. Carty was including the 20% lift in 2009.

Mr. Paul Carty

The Exchequer is not at a loss.

At the end of 2008, the value of the fund was less than the total contribution.

Mr. Paul Carty

Yes.

I accept that it lifted a bit due to the lift in the equity markets in 2009. Is the commission happy about the performance?

Mr. Paul Carty

Last May we went through all this. Rather than taking one year at a time, one must realise this is a long-term, 25-year pension reserve fund. In terms of asset allocation, we are looking at the longer term. I emphasised on the last occasion that one cannot take one year and——

I will address both points. On the point about the longer term, I was using a period of eight years. At the end of eight years, the value was lower than the contributions.

Mr. Paul Carty

Against that, in 2008 something exceptional happened that never happened in 80 years.

I will not labour the point unduly. From the figures I was able to obtain on pension reserve funds in the OECD for 2008, I noted the drop in Ireland was over 30%. The drop for New Zealand was 26%, that for Norway was 25%, that for Canada was 14%, that for Australia was 8% and that for Japan was 4.6%. We were the worst in the OECD in 2008.

Mr. Paul Carty

The report of the OECD was very emphatic and cautioned taking figures from one year as it can give a misleading picture. If one reads the report, one will note that.

In taking one year, one must look at the types of pension funds in each of those countries. Ours is a young fund. Those in Canada and Spain are social security funds geared towards bonds. Australia experienced a drop of 8% but that fund only began in 2006. It missed the turmoil and had not fully invested. If one compares the years in the report with this year, one will find that circumstances have changed. The NPRF portfolio for 2009 was worth €20.9 billion. The French reserve fund for 2009 had a figure of 12.8, a difference of 8%. Every fund is different and one must get behind them to see when the liabilities will crystalise.

I want to raise a couple of questions arising from two factors, not just the performance in 2008 against the other OECD countries, which was, to be honest, quite disastrous. Perhaps it was a once-off performance in that year. At the end of the eight-year period, we had less money in the fund than the sum of the contributions. Does that not raise issues in a number of areas? Has Mr. Carty taken a serious look at the asset allocation in the fund? The equity level is now down to 63%. Is Mr. Carty satisfied that this is a proper level?

Mr. Paul Carty

As I mentioned before, we had a significant tsunami in investments in 2008 but the commission carries out reviews. There was a detailed review in 2004 and another in 2006. We are at present reviewing the whole asset allocation and are having regard to the investment in the banks and to 2008. At present, we are reviewing the strategy and I expect to have it completed by the end of this quarter. Many things have happened. We experienced the 2008 drop, financial turmoil after Lehman Brothers declared bankruptcy and now the investment in the banks. Therefore, we must assess the strategy, as we are doing. We should have it assessed by the end of this quarter.

Apart from the asset allocation, which is very heavily weighted in favour of equities, how actively managed is the fund? Is it just a case of tinkering around the edges?

Mr. Paul Carty

We engage the best managers in the world in making these investments. They are very competent people.

We have seen some evidence of that in recent times. I am not referring to Mr. Carty.

Mr. Paul Carty

Our liabilities will not crystallise until after 2025. As we get closer to 2025 we will be changing to allocations more associated with bonds or with fewer equities. It is the long-term status of this that must be considered.

Does Mr. Carty include any protection in the portfolio to cover the danger of downward trends?

Mr. Paul Carty

It is a very diversified portfolio. When we started off in the pension fund in 2000, there was a ratio of 80:20. The whole aspect of diversification is important in so far as lowering the risk is concerned. Whatever anybody took with 2008, the diversification on everything did not really work from the point of view——

Does the pension fund operate a put option if the fall is below a certain level?

Mr. Paul Carty

We do not do any major derivatives.

Does the pension fund have a system whereby it buys put options in relation to the equity portfolio and sells them if there is a fall of a certain level?

Mr. Paul Carty

We have looked at those items and insurance and so forth and found them to be too expensive. We do not do complicated derivatives.

There was a fall of 30% in one year.

Mr. Paul Carty

I know that one year is always cited but, in fairness, I am endeavouring to make the point that——

In the year 2002, there was an early warning; there was a fall of 16.1%.

Mr. Paul Carty

Early warnings are such that if one goes back on the NPRF, one will note there was €20.9 billion this year and a decrease of 30.4% last year. In 2007, there was an increase of 3.3%, and in 2006 there was an increase 12.4%. In 2005 there was a return of 19.6%. I can go on.

I am saying that a number of funds have a put option system such that if there is a fall of, say, 5% or 7%, there is an automatic trigger to prevent further downward falls. Is this not used at all in the NPRF?

Mr. Paul Carty

We look at the options but we do not take those types of derivatives.

The other issue is the level of diversification. Is Mr. Carty satisfied with having 63% in equities?

Mr. Paul Carty

In the present review, we are looking at that, the alternative assets and at moving towards absolute returns. Arising from that and investments in the banks, the equity level could come down but I would not like to prejudge what the commissioners are going to determine before the end of this quarter.

Are they considering commodities and hedge funds?

Mr. Paul Carty

Yes, very much so. When I mentioned absolute returns, I was talking about hedge funds.

When does Mr. Carty expect the review to be complete?

Mr. Paul Carty

At the end of this quarter.

Will there then be a new approach?

Mr. Paul Carty

We are reviewing it and looking at it across the board in every way.

I do not want to be critical but my job is to ask questions.

Mr. Paul Carty

I understand that.

One message I want Mr. Carty to take away is that the fund managers will have to be asking the questions before they appear before the committee again. I look forward to the new approach Mr. Carty was talking about.

Mr. Paul Carty

I thank the Deputy.

I apologise for being late. I was in the Chamber. If my points were covered in my absence, I want to be told so I will not repeat what was said.

I want to understand the flow of funds from the Exchequer to the National Pensions Reserve Fund Commission to the banks and from the banks back to the commission. The Exchequer gives 1% of GNP to the commission. It was €1.69 billion in the year under review. What are the figures for 2009 and 2010? What sums went into the banks? The banks are making repayments to the commission at a rate of 8%. It seems like money going around, travelling from the Exchequer to the NPRF to the banks and back again. I presume it keeps the wheels turning, but——

Mr. Paul Carty

Let me explain. The Exchequer contribution for 2009 was €3 billion. That was a current and a future contribution.

The Exchequer paid the 2009 contribution and an advance payment on the 2010 contribution.

Mr. Paul Carty

Yes.

This was then used by the NPRF to invest in the banks, having been directed by the Minister.

Mr. Paul Carty

Yes. The investment return was €2.245 billion for that year. The universities and State bodies transferred €880 million, so the fund value at the end of 2009 is €22.267 billion.

I understand that. The money invested in the bank came to €4 billion, but I thought the NPRF sold some Government bonds.

Mr. Paul Carty

We did, yes.

Did the NPRF not have enough Government bonds to cash in without taking that advance payment for 2010? Why was that necessary? I know the NPRF did not want to sell investments at a low point in the cycle——

Mr. Paul Carty

A total of €7 billion had to go into the banks.

How much of that came from the NPRF? How much came from the sale of bonds? How much of the €7 billion was an advance payment by the Exchequer?

Mr. John Corrigan

A total of €3 billion came from the Exchequer, while €4 billion came from the fund. The €3 billion from the Exchequer went to the banks via the fund, so the total amount invested was €7 billion. The €4 billion which the fund sourced from its own resources came from cash balances of the fund.

How much of the €4 billion was cash? How much came from the sale of Government bonds?

Mr. John Corrigan

I am told that it was €2.5 billion in cash and €1.5 billion in bonds.

So the NPRF was directed to put €7 billion in, at which point it had only €2.5 billion in cash available to meet that figure. Therefore, it had to sell Government bonds at €1.5 billion to make up the €4 billion figure, and then get the advance——

Mr. Paul Carty

We raised €1.6 billion in cash, €2.3 billion in bonds, €0.1 billion in equities, and €3 billion from the Exchequer.

In other words, when the NPRF was directed to invest €7 billion in the banks, it only had €1.6 billion available in cash at that stage.

Mr. Paul Carty

Yes, and we sold Government bonds of €2.3 billion.

Then the fund got the 2009 payment and the 2010 payment in advance.

Mr. Paul Carty

Yes. The universities' contribution in kind brings the funding up until 2012.

That €7 billion comes from a combination of current budget receipts in 2009 and advance payments for 2010, plus another €4 billion. What has come back from the banks in respect of that funding?

Mr. Paul Carty

We discussed the dividends earlier on.

What was the total figure?

Mr. Paul Carty

It has not come back yet. There is an 8% dividend, which is the equivalent of €280 million from each bank.

When is that due?

Mr. Paul Carty

It is due on 20 February from Bank of Ireland.

To whom have the banks been paying cash for the guarantee scheme since it was introduced on 30 September 2008? I understand they have made several payments. Do these payments go through the fund?

Mr. Paul Carty

That does not go through the NPRF.

Does it go through the NTMA?

Mr. Paul Carty

It goes to the Department of Finance.

Would it not make sense if it all went through the one agency? The repayments from the bank guarantee scheme are going to the Department of Finance. The repayment of the coupon on the investment is going to the NPRF.

Mr. John Corrigan

The bank guarantee scheme clearly is a matter for the Department of Finance, but the payment to which the Deputy refers is the insurance premium that the banks pay, which is paid to the Exchequer and it is being held in a special account in the Central Bank.

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

There is a clear difference between an investment in the banks that generates a return which is managed by the NPRF and a guarantee by the State which is funded through a charge to the banks.

Why does the State invest that money in the Central Bank rather than with the NPRF? I thought the NPRF was the best place to manage funds for the country.

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

The bank guarantee scheme is not an investment. It is a guarantee.

Did Mr. Carty say that the Government will not be putting in the 1% in 2011?

Mr. Paul Carty

In kind.

Will the NPRF be using the university assets instead?

Mr. Paul Carty

That is a contribution.

Is the NPRF taking over the liabilities?

Mr. Paul Carty

No, we are not. Their liabilities are being left with them. We do not take liabilities into the fund.

I presume that investments are valued at market value in the end of year balance sheet, but I notice that Mr. Carty stated that "including the bank preference shares and related warrants which are held at cost and zero, respectively, the fund recorded a net return of 11%." Does that represent a change of accounting policy?

Mr. Paul Carty

No. The Financial Measures (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 states that the investments in the banks are to be held at cost. We take no recognition of the warrants or the value of the warrants.

Of any gains or losses?

Mr. Paul Carty

That is correct. I am not aware if there are any losses at the moment.

There could be.

Mr. Paul Carty

The Act states that they must be held at cost.

I accept that. However, when the NPRF produces its accounts for 2009, will it have a new accounting policy in which it shows the value of its investments in the Irish banks at cost?

Mr. Paul Carty

When the accounts and the balance sheet are prepared and the Comptroller and Auditor General carries out his audit, we have to look at the accounting standards in respect of how the value applies.

How does that accounting standard tie in with the legislation which states that the investments are to be held at cost?

Mr. Paul Carty

Once the reader of the accounts gets the information, that is the important thing.

That is what I am trying to figure out. In the 2009 accounts, will there be an extra paragraph dealing with valuation that was not there before?

Mr. Paul Carty

Yes. If there is a view that the warrants in the accounts are worth X amount, there will be a commissioner's note in the footnotes stating what that fair value is, and the asset will be in the balance sheet at cost.

Is Mr. Carty saying that the legislation which required the NPRF to show it in the balance sheet at cost or zero may not comply with international accounting standards?

Mr. Paul Carty

The Deputy is asking two questions. Until these warrants crystallise, I would not be inclined to take the credit for them. However, I would give the reader of the accounts the information by way of a footnote on the fair value, based on those warrants crystallising at the current date.

All the other NPRF investments are valued at fair market value as determined in quoted and unquoted investments, yet this will be different.

Mr. Paul Carty

It is about when the warrants are exercisable. On 31 December 2009, the warrants were not exercised.

Mr. John Corrigan

The warrants are only exercisable on the fifth anniversary of the subscription agreement.

In other words, a potential gain or loss might not be reflected in the face of the accounts.

Mr. Paul Carty

The reader will see. If there is a potential——

By way of a footnote.

Mr. Paul Carty

Yes.

We might be getting lost in a bit of detail, so I will move on to another topic. If this one has been covered, the Chairman should tell me. How much has the NPRF recently invested in public-private partnerships, PPPs? Has this topic been addressed?

Mr. Paul Carty

No.

Last year, a number of PPP school projects were delayed because the preferred bidder went back to the banks, some of which were foreign, on the basis that the credit squeeze meant the builder could not complete the project, given the changed financial arrangements owing to the international situation. This slowdown occurred in some school projects in my constituency.

Some of the largest developers are not proceeding with social housing in Dublin, not because they are unable to build houses, but because they are unable to get financing. Since many local authority water service schemes are PPPs, I am sure the same difficulty arises for them. What used to be good schemes have become more difficult because of financial arrangements.

Can the NPRF supply the committee with a list of projects it has assisted? I would have hoped that the NPRF would have entered the breach. It sounds strange that the NPRF invested in commercial PPPs, many of which cannot proceed because they cannot source funds privately. Can Mr. Carty discuss this point, mention of which I could not find anywhere in the accounts?

Mr. Paul Carty

I can. We are assessing the asset class. In 2006, we made a small allocation of 2%, but we have not yet made any investments.

I am horrified by that statement. The NPRF has made no investment.

Mr. Paul Carty

May I be allowed to finish?

Please. The Deputy should not get horrified for a while.

Mr. Paul Carty

We did not invest in the first instance because there was no lack of capital in the market and we did not see any projects with attractive terms. However, the situation has changed since the financial crisis and the funding of infrastructural projects has become more difficult. Previously, consortia bidding for PPP projects would normally have had their financing in place as part of their tenders. The National Development Finance Agency, NDFA, has moved towards a model whereby the funding of a project is the subject of a separate tender. The NPRF is interested in bidding in this scenario, which would help to accelerate our infrastructural programme and provide suitable long-term commercial investment opportunities for the fund. This is our present stance.

Over the years, the committee has discussed with the NPRF providing funds for PPPs. The latter was going to put a fund of more than €200 million in place. Is Mr. Carty telling us that it did not need to do so because there was no shortage of capital in the international markets and, now that the cycle has gone the opposite way, it will still not provide the fund? For how many years has the NPRF existed?

Mr. Paul Carty

We have invested €100 million in the Dublin Airport Authority, DAA. We must consider what return we will get. We are interested in PPPs and, in light of the NDFA examining the area, we have told it that we will work with it.

Through the Chair, I heard that precise statement in 2006. We were told that the NPRF was interested in PPPs and carrying out assessments. Four years on, none of it has occurred. I can understand why this was the case when the construction companies could source financing, but there is a problem in respect of the past two years. School projects have been delayed because of a lack of financing for PPPs. The construction of social housing has been delayed due to financing issues, with some projects collapsing. Local authority water service schemes could not proceed because contractors were unable to source financing in the changed financial circumstances. However, the NPRF is telling us that it is going to change its approach to PPP. It will divide the tendering process into two contracts, one for construction and another for the provision of financing. This sounds like a mechanism that will add another two or four years before a penny is spent. Can Mr. Carty understand from where I am coming?

Mr. Paul Carty

I see the Deputy's point, but if anyone wants to approach us with a project that would have a satisfactory return for us, we will undertake it. We have invested €100 million in Ireland. While this amount might seem small compared with the total, we have——

What percentage of €21 billion is that?

Mr. Paul Carty

The Deputy can work it out. We are positive.

To tease it out, the NDFA is the NPRF's sister company, although that might not be the technical term. It is under Mr. Corrigan of the NTMA. Mr. Carty mentioned people approaching the NPRF, but I understood that all public bodies undertaking procurement were required to go to the NDFA for advice, the reason it was established. I presume it is located in the same building as the NPRF and the NTMA. When school projects arise, surely the first door on which the NDFA should knock is the NPRF's. Is Mr. Carty telling the committee that the NDFA has not approached the NPRF about the projects under discussion? The former should be involved in all of them.

Mr. Paul Carty

I am sure the NDFA is aware of the projects.

Mr. Corrigan is responsible for that organisation. What happens when it undertakes a project and there is a difficulty in sourcing finance? Can it not go the next floor up in the building to the NPRF and ask it for an investment, given it has a great deal of money?

Mr. John Corrigan

The school projects to which the Deputy refers are in schools bundle 1. Obviously, he was right to state that there were delays. Happily, the construction of those school buildings is well advanced at this stage. The competition for that PPP project was put in train before the financial crisis hit the international markets. The tender was for design, build, maintain and finance, so the financing element was an integrated part of the whole package.

The NPRF's policy as enunciated for the committee — the Deputy's recall is right — was to make finance available to the winning consortium of any PPP project, providing the terms were right. Until the collapse of Lehman Brothers and the tsunami in the financial markets referred to by Mr. Carty, the provision of finance was not an issue. Indeed, finance was available on aggressive terms from the banks. In our considered judgment, those terms did not properly reflect the risk involved.

As the Deputy stated, life has changed with the credit crisis. In order that the question of financing does not delay PPP projects, their financing is now being treated by the NDFA as a separate exercise. Tenders are for design, build and maintain with a separate competition conducted for financing to address the difficult credit circumstances in which PPP projects are finding themselves globally. It is the NPRF's intention to participate in those competitions.

I wish to take Mr. Corrigan up on two matters. First, I found contradictory his statements that the PPP process for many of the larger projects was for design, build, maintain and finance and that the NPRF offered to provide finance to the winning consortium. It would have been too late, as the consortium could not have won had it not had its financial arrangements in place with banks somewhere in the world beforehand. According to Mr. Corrigan, the NPRF's only role was in providing a service by way of financial support to the winning consortium, but I do not understand this role, given that the deal would have been done by that point. Does he understand my point?

Second, today is the first I have heard about the new process. Perhaps I overlooked it and it has been public knowledge or perhaps it is a new innovation, in that the design, build and maintain elements will be separate from the financing element. Does that mean every PPP contract in the tender process must be torn up and we must start with a new tendering process to separate the finance?

Every time a change like this is made it adds a year to the process. If financing is being dealt with separately, it will add to the process. What contracts currently in the system are affected and will be changed because of the change of policy announced now? How many are affected and what are they? These must be big projects and there is nothing confidential about them.

Mr. John Corrigan

It is not a question of confidentiality, it is a question of my powers of recall. Schools in bundle 2, currently at an advanced stage, are now at tender stage for the financing element. Beyond that, I was not briefed for NDFA discussions.

The NDFA will be invited before the committee as part of the investigation into the financial sector. Mr. Corrigan will appear again at that stage and these questions might be more relevant to that agency. I can understand why he does not have information readily available.

It is very important to recognise that the NDFA does not provide finance. It is very important that those who can provide the finance are the NPRF. There is no point asking the NDFA about the provision of funds. Its role is purely advisory in putting a deal together. How many requests has the NPRF had from the NDFA about the financing of public private partnerships? How many were approved and how many declined?

Mr. John Corrigan

To date, funding has been part of the integrated package put out to tender. The only way the NPRF can access PPPs in these circumstances is by joining one of those consortia.

Members have been told at PAC meetings for the past four years that the NPRF was available to invest. Mr. Corrigan is now saying that it could not invest because deals were done before.

Mr. John Corrigan

The availability of finance was never an issue. There was ready availability of finance from the private sector for PPPs until the current financial crisis. Finance was not a constraint. Many of the providers of finance were prepared to provide terms more aggressive than the NPRF even if it had been able to access the deals. The terms offered were sharper than we were prepared to provide.

That is not the impression we were given for the past four years. We were given the impression funds were available for investing; now Mr. Corrigan is saying there was no need for the NPRF to invest because there was enough finance in the private sector. As public representatives we were under the impression the NPRF was ready to stand into the breach. For all these years, there was no breach for it to stand into. Perhaps it can provide a detailed note on the projects that have gone through the tendering system and those that require a change to the tendering system. We can then see how many projects we are talking about. There may not be many. We can return to the issue when we receive a note.

Perhaps Mr. Corrigan can provide us with that note.

I congratulate Mr. Corrigan on becoming chief executive. I also note that Dr. Somers did the country great service. He is still serving us in other capacities. I welcome Mr. Carty and officials from the Department of Finance. As a result of the events of the past year and a half, is it fair to say the NPRF has suffered a serious loss of credibility? Mr. Carty's introductory statement is that no money can be drawn down from the fund before 2025, and from then on drawdowns will continue until at least 2055. In effect, we did draw down. Comparing this with the OECD and other funds, is it not the case that the credibility of the fund per se is in question? Could it be raided again by a Government of the day? Its primary function is to help with pensions of this country. Perhaps this function has been eroded.

This is a matter of policy and was addressed by legislation. Mr. Carty had to abide by that decision.

Mr. Paul Carty

In terms of my credibility or that of the commission, there is €1.5 billion more in the fund than what the Exchequer contributed. It is not a question of being in deficit. That is not an insignificant sum.

Is it correct that Mr. Carty is not allowed to purchase Irish bonds?

Mr. Paul Carty

No, under the Act.

I may be straying into policy in asking if there is merit in this. I know there is a major discussion in sovereign funds about this. I notice that NPRF has some Greek equities. The report before us refers to a small amount based in Greece. Does Mr. Carty have concerns about these?

Mr. Paul Carty

We have passive and active investments. That investment is made through a passive investment fund.

Some 0.4% of the fund at the end of 2008 was based in Greece.

Mr. Paul Carty

This is done by passive fund managers, who invest when we give them the task of investing. They make the judgment of what investment to make.

Whatever does Mr. Carty mean by passive investment?

Mr. Paul Carty

It is part of investment, geared towards an index. Active managers choose shares. Other managers take an index, such as the S&P 500.

The Financial Times or The Irish Times recently mentioned significant Irish exposure in Greece. This goes beyond the NPRF.

Mr. Paul Carty

There may be other investors.

We have a little exposure, even in the fund itself.

Mr. Paul Carty

Yes. As Ireland.

We have had major news today. This is my eighth year on the Committee of Public Accounts over the course of two Parliaments. I am struck by the fact we do not have an audit of the investment or the amounts we put into the banks from the fund. The figures for directed investment, currently held at cost, are unaudited. That is a significant amount of money.

Mr. Paul Carty

This is the first year. The figures will be reflected on the balance sheet of the financial accounts until 31 December 2009. The Comptroller and Auditor General will audit the accounts.

There is no way of trying to estimate the value we will get from that directed investment.

Mr. Paul Carty

In the future? No, but someone must take an accounting perspective, as discussed earlier, and consider what is fair value. One must consider whether cost represents fair value. That exercise must be undertaken before the audit is completed for 31 December 2009.

Turning to the NTMA, what is the cash on hand at the moment?

Mr. John Corrigan

Since the beginning of the year we have raised approximately €7 billion in long-term finance through the bond markets. We have a borrowing requirement emerging from the budget of approximately €20 billion. We came into the year with long-term funding of €5 billion. We are very comfortable. In addition, the interest rate on 95% of the debt portfolio has been fixed. We have substantial short-term balances but I do not have the figure. I came to answer questions on the pension fund. The crucial matter is the long-term funding. We have raised approximately €7 billion plus the €5 billion we brought into the year.

Dr. Somers sent us figures after the meeting last year and I was struck by the amount of cash in hand. I know it is almost like managing the national kitty for the Irish family but it was striking. Last year, €35 billion was raised and the figure for this year is expected to be €20 billion. Is Mr. Corrigan stating that we have assets of €12 billion?

Mr. John Corrigan

We raised €12 billion through the bond markets and in addition to that we have other cash balances raised through the sale of short-term paper. The point being made is a fair one and we are actively looking at it. We have come through a period of great turmoil and crisis. We are reviewing whether it is appropriate to continue to run the cash balances which we wisely ran through that period. That is a matter of judgment.

Our total debt service expenditure will increase dramatically this year. At the end of 2009 it cost us approximately €3.2 billion and it is due to escalate to €5 billion. Why will it jump so much in April?

Mr. John Corrigan

Again, the questions posed by Deputy Broughan on the debt side are quite detailed. I am quite happy to provide the information to the committee; there is no issue with that. It probably has to do with the timing of the coupons on particular bond issues. As a general point, the cost of the debt service, as was projected in the budgetary figures published, is due to increase quite sharply because the quantum of debt outstanding is increasing.

We will deal with that in April.

Our national debt has gone past €75 billion and is rising.

Mr. John Corrigan

The debt measured on a gross basis would be of that order of magnitude.

And as time goes by——

Mr. John Corrigan

We get no credit in the way the statistics are compiled by EUROSTAT for cash balances or for the pension fund. On a net basis the figure would be much lower than that.

The contribution of the €7 billion insertion into the banks last year to our growing national debt quite clearly impacts severely on the cost of debt servicing. What is the current position on the spreads in other eurozone countries?

Mr. John Corrigan

The spreads have improved quite dramatically. We were at the high point last March when the spread on our ten year paper would have been close to 300 basis points over Germany. At present, we are at approximately 160 or 170 basis points over Germany. The rating agencies are acknowledging that substantial progress has been made on the fiscal front.

We are dealing with pensions today.

Has any exercise been done to examine the contribution of the expenditure and the banks on the monthly-increasing debt figures?

Mr. John Corrigan

The point about the investment in the banks is that it has come out of the pension fund. The contribution income would have gone into the fund in any event. I suggest the more correct way of looking at it in the context of the pension fund is how Deputy Shortall suggested earlier and that is to look at the opportunity cost as such of investing in the banks as distinct from investing in other classes on behalf of the pension fund. The discussion earlier was on the 8% coupon on the preference shares plus the return on the warrants and whether at the end of the day that return is greater or less than one would have got had one invested in other asset classes. I do not think it is related to the debt because the annual contribution would have gone into the fund in any event. It is more an opportunity cost discussion.

Effectively does Mr. Corrigan expect that in a couple of weeks either we will have bank equity or that €280 million?

Mr. John Corrigan

Yes.

Are there concerns about, or has any preparation been made on, the possible need for further recapitalisation and how that may impact again on the pension reserve fund?

The Deputy's first question has been gone through and the second question is on policy. We dealt with the first question for at least half an hour.

I accept that but when the Chairman was away and I conveniently had the Chair I asked whether it is possible that banks simply will not be able to meet the bare requirements under the terms of the moneys from the pension reserve fund.

Mr. John Corrigan

Clearly the question of the capital position of the banks is an issue because the effect of the transfers to NAMA will be that they will have to recognise impairments and that has implications for their balance sheets. The two institutions in which we have preference shares are quoted institutions and it would be quite improper for me, in the context of an orderly market, to start speculating on where those events might lead us. It will emerge one way or another as an issue over the coming weeks.

The National Treasury Management Agency is involved in NAMA. How does it fit into the constellation of companies of which the two agencies before us play leading roles? Is it part of what we regard as Dr. Somers's family? Effectively it is.

Mr. John Corrigan

No, the National Asset Management Agency was established under the aegis of the National Treasury Management Agency. What that means in practice is that the staff of NAMA are supplied by the National Treasury Management Agency. The contracts of NAMA employees are with the National Treasury Management Agency. Additionally, the National Treasury Management Agency supplies very important shared services, for example on treasury, to the extent that foreign exchange transactions on overseas assets will be executed through the existing skilled team in the National Treasury Management Agency. Equally, IT, HR and internal audit and compliance are shared services and we have the platform there. Otherwise, the people in NAMA have specific skills related to the NAMA task. I should add that in terms of governance NAMA has its own board and the chief executive of NAMA, who is an employee of the National Treasury Management Agency, is answerable for the performance of NAMA to the board of NAMA and he and I are ex officio members of that board.

Perhaps I am straying off the precise debate but did NTMA staff go through the public service pay reductions that all of the rest of us have taken?

Mr. John Corrigan

The National Treasury Management Agency was excluded formally from the pay reductions imposed in the legislation following the budget.

Has the agency endured any pain from the levies and other indignities heaped upon public servants in the past 18 months?

Mr. John Corrigan

Again, I would be happy to answer the Deputy's question but I did not come prepared to answer it. I came to speak about the National Pensions Reserve Fund. The staff of the NTMA are subject to the pension levy. We secured an additional 8% reduction in payroll costs in 2009, even though we were not directly impacted upon by the legislation.

When we asked Mr. Corrigan's predecessor about salary rates, he supplied us with a very large document which did not tell us very much. We should receive details on the rates applying to staff at all levels.

Is Mr. Corrigan the highest paid public servant?

Mr. John Corrigan

Again, I did not come prepared to answer these questions.

We will not personalise the issue but at least Mr. Corrigan knows what his own salary is.

Mr. John Corrigan

I do.

I note that in total dealers or investment managers were paid in excess of €20 million in 2008. Although this represents a reduction of 17% on the 2007 figure, the value of the fund dropped by 25% in the same period. On what basis are they paid?

Mr. Paul Carty

We have changed many of their fee structures by moving towards the payment of performance based compensation.

On what basis are they contracted?

Mr. Paul Carty

It is done by tender in each case. We look for value managers in various segments and they are contracted at a competitive price. By reason of volume, the basis points per contract are competitive in the market. Their fees are related to performance.

My next question may sound stupid but it is not. What checks and balances are in place to ensure managers follow good practice or to exclude rogue traders?

Mr. Paul Carty

We have a team within the NPRF which regularly visits fund managers and reports to the commission on all of them. Managers can be put on review or noted as unsuitable for the future. The reports issued by the unit are very detailed.

Do the contracts allow for the payment of bonuses or the imposition of penalties according to performance?

Mr. Paul Carty

The fee structure comprises many basis points and additional compensation payments are based on performance. Previously, the level of compensation was based on a gross figure and performance was not considered but in the light of market developments in recent years, we have moved to a performance based structure.

How is the cost of managers benchmarked?

Mr. Paul Carty

Specialists in the area know what the market rate is. Given that the NPRF is such a player in the marketplace, they have all the necessary information on competitive pricing.

Is Mr. Carty satisfied that the checks and balances are tight enough to avoid irresponsible dealing in order to gain bonuses?

Mr. Paul Carty

We have very strong controls in place in the agency, not only from the point of view of internal audits but also in the context of the culture we have developed since our establishment.

Does Mr. Carty refer to external management?

Mr. Paul Carty

Yes.

To take two extremes, the sovereign wealth funds of the United Arab Emirates, on the one hand, and Norway, on the other, would take very different approaches to investment. How would we compare in terms of efficient management and profitability?

Mr. Paul Carty

The visits made, for example, to a manager in New York would involve a two or three person team spending perhaps eight hours a day going through his or her investment performance. If the team is not happy with the reasons given for investments, it will say so. The fund manager is also assisted by his or own team during the NPRF inspection.

Mr. John Corrigan

In regard to costs, the fund participates in an international survey conducted by a Canadian consultancy company, CEM Benchmarking Incorporated, which compares us with other funds, including Norway's. I do not think the Arab funds participate in the survey because they are inclined towards secrecy. The Californian pension fund, CalPERs, and the French, Australian and New Zealand reserve funds also participate. In 2008 the total weighted cost of running the NPRF, including the salary costs borne by the fund, worked out at 0.3%. We are advised by the survey company that we are in the same ballpark or better than some of the other funds surveyed. In 2007 the cost was somewhat lower at 0.25% but as these costs are somewhat sticky, the fall in the value of the fund caused the ratio to increase. Norway has not published full year figures for its performance in 2009 but the figures for the first nine months of the year reveal a return of 13.5%. The return on the discretionary portfolio of the NPRF in the same period was 16.4%.

The Comptroller and Auditor General drew attention to the considerable backlog in new superannuation schemes awaiting examination and approval. Has the Department yet managed to get on top of the backlog?

Mr. John C. O’Connell

The report is accurate. We are working on the matter. However, I would would not like to say we are on top of it yet. We are aware of it as an issue which needs to be addressed. Systems are in place within the Department to monitor the situation and we hope approvals will be at the appropriate rate by the end of this year or early next year.

What progress has been made since the Comptroller and Auditor General issued his report?

Mr. John C. O’Connell

I do not have the figure for approvals since the report was issued.

I ask that we be supplied with that information.

Mr. John C. O’Connell

Yes.

I am conscious that we have focused on the NTMA but substantial issues also arise in regard to the Department's information and accounting systems and general performance, to which I would like to return on another occasion. If the deadlines for the payment of coupons in respect of the NPRF are not met, is there a provision in place to apply penalties? Given the manner in which some of the banks are crucifying small customers, I take it that penalties will apply where they default.

Mr. John Corrigan

The penalty is the payment-in-kind, that is, the divesting of the equivalent amount in shares.

In the case of a delay, they are allowed leeway of perhaps one month to meet their obligations. Are they penalised for failing to meet the deadline and, if not, does that not result in a loss to the Exchequer?

Mr. John Corrigan

The coupon stopper which stops the payment of the coupon is a force majeure because it has been imposed externally by the European Commission. The bank is quite happy for the PIK to trigger if it is required. Our view is that we prefer to get the money in cash. That is the judgment call we have made.

That is fine. I do not want to go over ground we have dealt with previously but it is important to bear in mind that a decision on the part of the witnesses to delay the process and perhaps wait a month to see what the European Commission does has cost implications, which should be borne in mind.

Mr. John Corrigan

I take that point.

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

The Department is in negotiations with the European Commission with a view to resolving the issue. We are aware of all the concerns regarding the timing of a solution, and it is being taken into account in the discussions.

It is reasonable for taxpayers to expect that in the space of four weeks, for example, from the due date the payment is either made or the State gets its ordinary shares.

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

There are very big issues involved in the discussions with the Commission on the restructuring of the banks.

There are big issues involved for the taxpayer as well.

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

In that context, the kind of issue raised by the Deputy will be taken into account.

If and when the €560 million is paid by the two main banks, what will happen to the money?

Mr. John Corrigan

The money is income to the National Pensions Reserve Fund and is available to the commissioners to invest at their discretion.

The general view is the banks will return to the well looking for more capital, which has serious implications for the National Pensions Reserve Fund.

The Deputy is straying into policy.

I am not asking the opinion of witnesses but rather making a statement. In the report, the Comptroller and Auditor General speaks about the powers of the NTMA for monitoring the financial performance of the banks, consulting the Minister on senior executive and non-executive director remuneration issues and reporting to the Minister on matters concerning the investment. Has the agency been engaged in that work so far?

Mr. Paul Carty

We have a unit where bank specialists will do a very detailed review every quarter and report to the commission. In turn, I write to the Minister, through the Department, on issues we feel are relevant.

Quarterly reports are sent to the Minister. The Minister last week announced that he would delegate powers to the agency, including the power to advise on the banking issue.

Mr. Paul Carty

The Deputy is referring to the NTMA.

Yes. Perhaps the question is more appropriate for the Department of Finance. A legal opinion has been given that the Minister did not have those powers to start with so he could not delegate them to the NTMA. Has the Department a response to that legal opinion?

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

I would not comment on any legal position at the moment. The Minister has made it clear that the delegation order is being prepared in consultation with the Attorney General and all legal aspects will be taken into account.

Is Mr. Carrigan satisfied the Minister——

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

There will be a delegation order within the powers and they will be properly and legally constructed.

When will that be completed?

Mr. Aidan Carrigan

We hope to do it as soon as possible.

I invite Mr. Buckley to comment.

Mr. John Buckley

We have had much discussion on debt. If there was a whole-of-government account with a balance sheet, pensions would be the single biggest liability of the State, representing 65% of GNP. In comparison, the general government debt was approximately 44% last year. It is therefore very important that a liability on that scale be quantified.

Moving forward, we must ensure we capture in electronic format the details of all staff with pension entitlements. A recommendation was made previously to introduce a computerised pensions administration system which could build on that information. It was recommended by the commission on public service pensions and it would facilitate information sharing, analysis and the compilation of any estimates of pensions liability in future. If we are to quantify liabilities of pensions we must carry out actuarial reviews at periodic intervals, probably every three years or so, and in the interim years carry out some sort of review to keep results up to date. These can be published, as the Department has decided to do in the finance accounts.

The big question left open, which I find difficult to conclude on myself, is whether pension accounting should be at the centre or within organisations. As I explained in my opening remarks, a number of organisations do very detailed accounting for pensions, quantifying liability. Others are exempt, either by virtue of the standard FRS17 or an alternative derogation. In the case of the appropriation accounts, getting to my age one realises Departments are fluid, flexible and reconfigured so often that the idea of producing an actuarial valuation for the staff of a Department as it exists is quite difficult. The energy portfolio, for instance, has been through perhaps many different iterations since the foundation of the State and did not exist for a long time.

The significant question is whether it is better to have a whole-of-government account eventually, with a proper quantification for the public service taking in all pensions. It could build on information gathered in electronic format and have accounting associated with the shared services arrangements that the Departments are contemplating. Bringing this together in one system would mean the schemes, funding, accounting and so on would be aligned at a central level. That is a bigger value for money issue than getting very detailed information in respect of some bodies and nothing from others.

Is it agreed that the committee notes special report No. 68 of the Comptroller and Auditor General dealing with public service pensions and Vote 7 — Superannuation and Retired Allowances, and disposes of chapter 5, public service pensions, and chapter 43, National Treasury Management Agency and National Pensions Reserve Fund? Agreed. I thank everybody representing the agencies today for their forthright responses to our questions. I also thank the officials from the Department of Finance.

The witnesses withdrew.

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