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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 25 Feb 2010

Chapter 32 — Recording and Recovery of Overpayments Cases.

Ms Bernadette Lacey (Secretary General, Department of Social and Family Affairs) called and examined.

We are meeting to discuss the 2008 annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and appropriation accounts, chapter 30 — welfare payments in excess of entitlement; chapter 31 — review of welfare overpayments cases; and chapter 32 — recording and recovery of welfare overpayments. Chapters 33 to 35, dealing with the review of jobseekers payments, the transfer of welfare functions and the Money Advice and Budgeting Service, together with the appropriation accounts of the Department's social insurance fund, will be dealt with at our meeting of 29 April 2010.

I draw everyone's attention to the fact that while members of the committee enjoy absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. The committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. I further remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 158 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

I welcome Ms Bernadette Lacey, Secretary General of the Department of Social and Family Affairs, and ask her to introduce her officials.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

On my right hand side is Ms Maureen Waldron, who has responsibility for control within the Department. On my left hand side is Mr. Eoin Ó Broin, who is the director of regions. Ms Siobhan Lawlor is the accountant in the Department.

I welcome officials from the Department of Finance and ask them to introduce themselves.

Mr. John Conlon

My name is John Conlon and I am principal officer in the sectoral policy division of the Department.

Mr. Karl Ryan

My name is Karl Ryan and I work on the administrative budgets in the Department of Finance.

I now ask Mr. Buckley to introduce the 2008 annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and appropriation accounts, chapters 30-32. The full text of chapters 30, 31 and 32 can be found in the annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General or on the website of the Comptroller and Auditor General at www.audgen.gov.ie

Mr. John Buckley

Approximately €21 billion was paid out in social welfare in 2009. An overview of welfare payments over the past three years and the estimated 2009 outturn is set out in chapter 30 to the annual report. The chapters before the committee review three things: what is known about the level of payments in excess of entitlement; what lessons might be learned from a review of overpayment cases; and what is the extent of recorded overpayments.

It is important to acknowledge that, because of the nature of the needs that schemes are designed to address, and the obligation on the Department to respond to those needs in a timely fashion, there will always be a risk of unwarranted recourse to the welfare system. However, the challenge is to use the optimum combination of control measures in addressing this potential exposure including risk rating of claims, routine follow up based on those ratings, recording the level of irregular payments detected and validating the extent of achievement of the control function through periodic fraud and error surveys.

The Department uses a forward looking measure to quantify its control achievement, calculating the irregular payments it claims would be avoided into the future using specific time horizons for each scheme.

Of the 11 fraud and error surveys conducted over the period 2003 to 2007 six lent themselves to extrapolation in order to derive the likely financial impact of fraud and error in the figures reported for scheme costs.

If the level of fraud and error found in those surveys was replicated in the payments for the years in which the survey was conducted we concluded that the payments in excess of entitlement would have been of the following order. Child benefit payments would include up to €30 million in incorrect payments in 2004, in 2005 disability allowance would have had payments in excess of entitlement of €44 million, illness benefit in 2006 would have had €2.5 million in incorrect payments, the level of irregular old age contributory pension payments in 2007 would have been €17.5 million and one parent family payments would have been overstated by €67 million in 2007.

When we compared the value of overpayments recorded for recovery for those schemes in the base years and the estimated levels of irregular payments derived from the surveys — it suggested that in some schemes only a small amount of incorrect payments are listed for recovery action.

About one in four of the cases for which the Department claims savings are actually recorded for recovery action. In the schemes reviewed the Department claimed to have made savings of €255 million in 2008 — by stopping irregular claims. On the credit side this would suggest a reasonably high detection rate but the persistence of such a level of incorrect payment must be a cause for concern.

In general, we concluded that the level of payment in excess of entitlement was significant in most schemes where extrapolation was possible and that regular surveys should be an important element of the control strategy going forward since they can be used to do the following: demonstrate the extent to which the controls that the Department relies on are working; help increase the detection rate through in-depth analysis of the characteristics of irregular claims and adjust risk profiles accordingly; help quantify the level of irregular payments in the accounts and track progress in reducing that level over time; and measure performance of the control function itself — by establishing a benchmark for the level of underlying fraud and error and using that benchmark to track the degree to which irregular payments are actually detected using risk based reviews.

Turning to the review of overpayment cases, we examined large overpayments in three schemes. The schemes involved were the disability allowance, the carer's allowance and the invalidity pension. Unsurprisingly, given the size of weekly welfare payments the amounts could only have accumulated over extended time periods. The general conclusion was that by using information already held on its information systems and conducting reviews at regular intervals most of the overpayments could have been avoided.

From a practical viewpoint, the question is can the Department get greater value from its review resources. In this connection, it is moving since 2009 to more focused risk reviews. This involves assigning risk scores based on case attributes and using those ratings to prompt case reviews. This is currently being done in the case of the disability allowance and carer's allowance.

Any substantial audit by my office of the effectiveness of these changes will have to await the full introduction of the system but, in general, the use of risk rating to focus review should help ration the Department's scarce control resources in a more cost effective way.

I also think that, looking forward, while considerable strides have been made in sharing data with external bodies there may be scope for greater use of computerised consistency checks in order to ensure that staff are prompted when information inconsistent with a current claim profile is entered onto the key social welfare databases.

Chapter 32 shows that there were €55.6 million of recorded overpayments in 2008. Some €21 million of the recorded overpayments were attributed to fraud or suspected fraud but this does not include a further €7 million which involved undisclosed means that came to light after a person died. Jobseeker payments account for almost 60% of fraudulent overpayments.

It is important to stress that Chapter 32 only deals with recorded overpayments. In a substantial number of cases the Department makes a correcting adjustment from a current date without raising an overpayment. Cumulatively, overpayments of €257 million are recorded but €170 million of these date from 2005 or earlier. Around €27 million was recovered in 2008.

Overall, there were seven chapters in my report on the social welfare area. Ultimately when the committee is finalising its report it may wish to consider the wider context provided by some of the chapters not reviewed today and note that some work has also been done in this area by the Joint Committee on Social and Family Affairs which reported last October.

The Accounting Officer will be in a position to update the committee on developments since the finalisation of my report.

I invite the Secretary General, Ms Bernadette Lacey, to make her opening statement.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I thank the Chairman and committee members for the opportunity to address the committee on the issues raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General. The Department of Social and Family Affairs administers services to the public through the provision of income supports and assistance with access to services which enable people to re-enter the active labour market.

The expenditure in the Department exceeded €20 billion in 2008 and €21 billion in 2009 in respect of some 50 schemes. During 2009, we processed 2.5 million claims and issued in excess of 83 million payments, an increase of 11 million or 15% on the previous year. In addition, 80,000 people were referred for activation to FÁS and other agencies. Control reviews were carried out in about 750,000 cases. However, although the number of reviews exceeded our targets the savings achieved of €484 million was only 79% of their target, due mainly to the drop in the level of savings on jobseeker schemes.

The Department came under a number of pressures during 2009 as the claims rose across the organisation continued to rise. The live registerincreased to 420,000 at the end of 2009, an increase of 266,000 in 24 months. Inflows increased from 284,000 in 2007 to 640,000 in 2009. The difficulties caused by the growth in the live register were exacerbated by the loss of 300 experienced staff in 2009 through retirement and other events. As the committee is aware it is not possible in the short term to replace the experience or expertise lost. However, we have recruited in excess of 600 staff during the past 18 months on redeployment from other Departments and we have redeployed a further 700 staff within the Department. We have also acquired additional accommodation and established six central decision units to meet the needs of the extra customers and staff.

I wish to comment briefly on the issue of savings and overpayments as they have a specific meaning in the context of their use by the Department. Overpayments arise in relation to a past event where a deciding officer has sufficient evidence that a person is paid an amount in excess of their entitlement for a given period, either through payment at a rate above that which they should receive or where they are paid beyond the relevant date. Savings on the other is an estimation of the additional payments a person would have received in the future had the particular control activity not taken place. A validated multiplier which varies from four weeks for short-term schemes to 136 weeks for longer schemes is used to assess the savings figures.

In his report the Comptroller and Auditor General raises concern that overpayments are not raised in all cases where payments are reduced. This situation arises because the deciding officer in revising a decision must determine whether the revised decision will apply from a current or earlier date. The deciding officer must consider whether there is sufficient evidence that non-compliance applied from an earlier date if a retrospective decision is being made. For example, in cases of cohabitation and medical assessment, it is not possible in most cases to make a retrospective decision. In cases where the revised decision applies from a current date no overpayment arises.

Turning to the chapters in the Comptroller and Auditor General's Report, chapter 30 examines the likely financial impact of five of the Department's schemes and the results of fraud and error surveys. The Department carried out a programme of detailed fraud and error surveys on individual schemes. Since 2003, 11 surveys across all major schemes have been completed and some schemes have been put through the survey process a second time. These surveys show that although the schemes such as the one-parent family payment and disability allowance are high risk at 7%, the majority of schemes are low risk at 1%, for example, illness benefit or contributory State pension. The purpose of the fraud and error survey process is to identify the level of risk associated with each scheme and areas in which a scheme is exposed to fraud or error. The outcomes provide scheme management with the basis for designing processes and control measures specifically targeted to minimise the level of future risk. Fraud and error surveys provide a view of underlying level of fraud or error on a scheme at a particular point in time. Surveys are carried out to a high standard and to this end the Department's statistician engages with the scheme managers in ensuring the appropriate rigors are applied, that the random sample is adequate to give a true picture of the scheme and in analysing the results.

Surveys take up to three months to complete and each case involves a home visit. They involve a comprehensive examination of the person's entitlement at a current point in time and the extent to which they are compliant with the conditions of the scheme. If it is found that the person's details differ from those originally supplied or that they are not compliant with the rules, the case is followed up to establish whether fraud or error is involved and to take appropriate action. In response, the Department has commenced a programme of carrying out two surveys per year on each of four schemes which show the highest potential for fraud, namely, jobseeker's allowance, one-parent family payment, disability allowance and child benefit, where non-Irish claimants have been identified as high risk. This will ensure that each of these schemes is reviewed each second year, while allowing time for the necessary changes identified in the surveys to be implemented.

Risks are mainly associated with not reporting changes in means during the lifetime of a claim and non-disclosure of other changes in circumstances. For example fraud in relation to one-parent family payment at 7% arises from non-disclosure of means and cohabitation. In response, the Department has instituted a number of activities to minimise these risks. One-parent family payment customers are required to declare on an annual basis that any changes in their circumstances and that they will still comply fully with the conditions of the scheme. Commencement of employment notices from Revenue are data matched against our payment systems. Claims are matched with earnings data received from Revenue and marriage data from the GRO. One-parent family payment and child benefit schemes are matched to identify any difference in the number of children being claimed on both schemes. At local level information is received from some but not all authorities on tenancies to establish potential cohabitation. In the case of jobseekers, the risks arise in the context of people working while claiming benefit and non-disclosure of means. Control activities include activities to follow up commencement of employment data and matching claims with earnings data from Revenue. In recent years, there have been new controls such as multi-agency vehicle checks and payment only through the post office to ensure that the person is still in the country.

In chapter 31, the Comptroller and Auditor General examined the sample of the larger overpayment cases previously identified by the Department in relation to disability allowance, carers and invalidity pensions schemes. He found that overpayments arose in the main as a consequence of the changes in the customer's circumstances not being notified to the Department. He expressed concern that in the schemes examined, certain overpayments could have been avoided or the amounts overpaid reduced, if the Department had followed up more quickly on information already available to it.

I accept the findings of the Comptroller and Auditor General in this matter and I can assure the committee that the Department has moved to address the issues identified by him. New risk-based review policies have been introduced for the disability allowance and carer schemes and a new policy is being developed for invalidity pensions. The new policies include regular data matching with our systems, particularly with earnings data from Revenue and with data provided from other organisations. In 2009, 12,000 disability allowance reviews resulted in savings of €14 million. Some 1,700 carer's cases resulted in savings of €9 million and 12,200 invalidity pension reviews resulted in savings of €2.7 million. Some of the actions taken include over 24,000 disability allowance cases have been risk rated on both medical and means criteria as part of the process of selecting cases for review on the basis of their risk rating. This year it is planned to review 5,000 high-risk cases, 2,000 medium-risk cases and 500 low-risk cases.

Savings of €79,000 were achieved from 40 disability allowance cases which were reduced or stopped as a result of earnings reviews, 250 out of 1,000 cases were found unsuitable, following a medical review, and 360 cases were stopped following a mailshot to 3,000 customers. The review of the payment to 4,600 carers resulted in savings of €148,000 and a mailshot to 3,000 customers yielded savings of €3.2 million, while a data match of earning is currently being followed up. Commencement of employment notifications are reviewed on a continuing bases, 3,000 disability allowance customers and 900 carers were reviewed in 2009.

Between 2006 and 2008, social welfare expenditure increased from €14 billion to €18.5 billion. The number of recipients increased from 1 million to 1.2 million. Total overpayments rose from €45 million to €55 million and recoveries amounted to €27 million in 2008. Overpayments identified amount to 0.32 % of overall spending in 2008, a slight reduction in the position in 2006, where it was 0.34%. The level of overpayments recorded in 2008 rose due to more accurate recording of overpayments on the new computer system, scheme specific variations and an increase in the scheme rates. Of this number, 38% were fraudulent of which some €10 million arose from concurrent working and claiming, 2.6% from means not disclosed and 1.3% from absence from the State. It transpired 43% of overpayments resulted from customer error, with €3.5 million arising from people being paid beyond their entitlement, €2.9 from means not being disclosed and €2.7 million paid by EFT after the death of the individual.

The figure of 6% arose from departmental error, arising from people paid beyond their entitlement or where they were in receipt of another payment or received a duplicate payment and 13% related to estate cases. Overpayments are recovered by way of deduction from ongoing social welfare payments or where a customer is not entitled to a payment by means of cash repayments or from the estate of deceased customers. Civil proceedings may also be taken to recover debts.

In 2006, a new debt management strategy was developed. The overall goal of this strategy is to actively peruse the recovery of debt to achieve maximum recovery levels with due regard to the value for money and with greater emphasis on recovery from people who are no longer dependent on social welfare payments.

Social welfare fraud is a criminal offence. The Department takes seriously the abuse of the system and may take prosecutions by way of summary or indictment proceedings. In deciding to prosecute, the Department takes account of the evidence of fraud and potential for success in court. During 2008, we referred 357 cases to the Office of the Chief State Solicitor and 328 cases were completed in court. In addition, 26 cases were referred to the Garda for investigation of personation. Civil proceedings were also taken to facilitate the recovery of the scheme overpayments or the collected of PRSI arrears. Such cases are only taken where there is an expectation that the debtor has sufficient means to discharge the debt.

We have recently reviewed and revised our prosecutions policy and the types of offences likely to be prosecuted include: false statements, false declaration or representations to obtain a payment to which a customer is not entitled; failure to notify the Department of changes in means or marital status; or concealing a material fact in order to continue to receive a payment. The prosecutions include failure by employers to maintain or produce prescribed records or to remit PRSI on foot of a demand.

The Department is currently facing serious challenges in balancing the need to deliver a quality timely service to our costumer while at that same time ensuring we have processes and procedures in place to minimise fraud and error in our schemes. In addition to implementing a multi-year modernisation business organisation and ICT programme to improve our service and controls, we have taken a number of other initiatives. Our new computer system enables our payment systems to talk to each other, to the central records and stand alone systems, thus minimising duplicate claims and payments. We undertake extensive data matching with Revenue, the Departments of Agriculture and Food, Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Environment, Heritage and Local Government, and Education and Science, as well as the Private Rental Tenancies Board, Criminal Injuries Assessment Board and the Taxi Regulator. We have introduced regular automated certification for one-parent family payment, child benefit, jobseeker's and pensions. Residency checks with home visits are carried out on those in high-risk categories. Special checks are undertaken at claim application stage for people with previous addresses in Northern Ireland. Multi-agency vehicle checks are carried out in co-operation with the Garda, Revenue and local authority staff. New mailshots have been introduced and frequency of the existing ones have been increased. People on means-based payments with earnings are reviewed regularly. Jobseekers are required to collect their payments at post offices and stricter identity checks were introduced in post offices for people collecting payments.

The special investigation unit which co-operates with each of the seven regions of the Department engages full time in the range of control activities and projects and works with the Revenue, NERA, customs and the Garda Síochána in addressing fraud. Currently it is being reconfigured as a national unit to ensure there is more integrated and consistent approach to control and that activity is being targeted at high risk categories of claimants and employers. The Department is conscious that the recruitment and redeployment of large numbers of staff in recent months may lead to potential for errors in claims, decisions and control activity. We are currently developing new approaches to training staff. This is being trialled in one area of the country and will be rolled out across the country as soon as possible. An innovative approach being examined in this context is the use of video conferencing to train staff in physically dispersed areas to minimise overheads and maximise the outcome.

I assure the committee that we in the Department take our responsibilities regarding the protection of funds entrusted to us very seriously. We have developed and continue to develop our programme of control activities to counter the ever changing and growing threats to our system.

Ms Lacey has given us a lot of information. I looked at the tables on welfare payments in excess of entitlements in chapter 30 and at the extrapolation that concludes that disability allowance payments had a baseline of fraud and error of 5%, with one-parent families having a figure of 7.3%, and 5.6% for child benefit. Have those figures been examined in the investigation of fraud and error? The 2009 Vote for child benefit would have been €2.2 billion. If there was fraud and error of 5.6%, it is a substantial figure. The same goes for the one parent family payment, where the estimated budget is €1.1 billion this year.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The percentages that were recorded came out of the fraud and error surveys that we carried out. The purpose of those surveys was to identify areas where there was a high level of risk. We have, therefore, introduced the policy that we will review those four schemes every two years. Unfortunately, because of the difficulties we had in 2009, we were only able to initiate policy in jobseeker's allowance, which we have not quite finished but we hope to have the report soon.

This year we intend to carry out a report on disability allowance and the one-parent family payment. As a result of the outcome of the surveys and the risks that were identified, we have implemented a series of new controls in those areas. We expect the level of fraud will be reduced in the current year.

Is there a target in that area?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Our target is to bring the percentage down as low as we can but there will always be a level of fraud and error. The British did a survey and, while it is difficult to make a direct comparison, it found between 2% and 5% was the average. Overall our average is around 3%. We would not be happy because some of ours is below 3% and we would like to bring the one-parent family payment and the disability payment down to that level. That will take time because there are people in the system whom we must catch up with.

Have those areas been identified as particularly high risk? Is there a picture of the sort of individual involved?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The problem with the one-parent family payment, apart from the fact the woman has a child, which is pretty obvious, is cohabitation. She must live on her own. Also, it is means assessed and there are also discards. A woman who is a lone parent can earn up to €146 per week without it affecting her payment and up to €425 before she loses it entirely. We must follow up on what happens when income creeps up. Sometimes that would be deliberately concealed while other times it would happen over a period and the person would not realise it is impacting on their payments. We are pursuing that in a more regulated way; we get earnings from the Revenue Commissioners on an annual basis and we can check our systems against the earnings received from the Revenue Commissioners.

Checks have been introduced in child benefit, particularly for non-Irish claimants, who have been identified as high risk. What sort of effect have those had on the baseline fraud and error figure?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The checks have only been in place for a year so it is difficult to identify them at this stage. It will be at least another year before we have full results.

There are two situations. When people who are non-Irish are working here and have their family here, they must be employees to be entitled to the payment. We want certification that they continue to be employed. For those whose children are abroad, we need confirmation they continue to support that child and they must certify on a quarterly basis that they are compliant with the conditions of the scheme.

Of the €2.2 billion for child benefit for 2010, what percentage is going to children whose parents are living and working here but who are not living here themselves?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I do not have a breakdown for that.

Perhaps we could get that at a later stage.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I do not have it in percentage terms of the overpayments. There are about 90,000 to 95,000 non-Irish people receiving child benefit.

How many of those are children abroad?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I do not have a breakdown of the two groups.

Is it possible to get those figures?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I can give the figures of the breakdown of the numbers but I do not have the percentage that might be getting an overpayment.

Even if we had the figures it would help.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

There are around 90,000 people in this country who are non-Irish and in receipt of child benefit.

Who are working?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

They are working or are considered as employees. They include those who were working and who have lost their jobs and are in receipt of jobseeker's benefit. They would also be entitled to child benefit.

The figures Deputy Clune is seeking relate to how many of those are in receipt of child benefit for children who do not live in Ireland.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I can get those figures, I just do not have them in front of me.

Are they readily available? It is important in the context of what we are doing that we get them.

Ms Lacey mentioned the concerns the Comptroller and Auditor General had about the lack of sharing of data and that information was available to the Department but it was not used. The statement contained a list of changes that have been made in that area, such as adjustments to the PRSI system. Previously there seemed to be information available to the Department that it was not using in the detection of potential fraud or overpayment cases.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We had a problem over the years in that our computer systems were developed over the last 30 to 35 years and there were different packages in place that did not talk to each other. The latest system is called BOM. It is a business object model, BOM. It is a positive move because it can talk to our central records system and to our other payments system and, in that way, we are able to share information between the different systems.

Revenue provides earnings data at the end of every year and we can match that now with each of our systems, particularly where means are involved, to ensure the person does not have means in excess of what he or she has notified to of.

How long is the system in place?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We have been developing the system over the past eight or nine years and we have put different schemes on it. It is mainly our pension schemes that are on the system.

Has Ms Lacey noticed a change? Has sharing of information and the fact that computers are talking to each other meant an improvement in the detection of overpayment or fraud?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It gives us two things. If we are opening a claim it can tell us where a claim is open under another scheme. That will avoid duplication of claims. It also does matching with things like earnings data so that we find out at an earlier stage if somebody's income or means has increased and he or she has not specifically told us. We can get the information from Revenue.

The system does a number of validations for us. It checks that the person has a valid contribution history and that the qualified adults for whom he or she is being paid are also on the system and the method of payment is validated and so on. We can do a long range of validations now because we have this new system.

A recent "Prime Time" report referred to cases of social welfare fraud. For instance, somebody claimed the pension of a woman in Cork who had been dead for two years. Does the Department check in with the central registry?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We do. There are problems with older cases and we will match back but, traditionally, people on pensions had somebody collect their pension for them if they were unable to do it themselves. We did not have any link up to the General Register Office, GRO, and, therefore, when the person died, we relied on a relative or the person collecting the pension to notify us. Now when somebody dies we automatically get a notification from the GRO and the claim is stopped. These cases that come up are older and we are looking at the extent to which we can go back and pick up duplication.

Therefore prior to a certain point, the Department depended on voluntary people.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Prior to the middle of this decade the GRO used paper-based systems. It is only in recent years that it has been automated and, therefore, we get birth, deaths and marriage information from the office, which we match against our systems.

Prior to the automation of the GRO, it was possible——

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It was a problem. We were dependent on people to tell us if somebody had died.

As public representatives, we are conscious of the electoral register and we watch out for people who pass on in our area. Most people are aware of deaths and it is surprising that the Department was totally dependent on somebody coming forward with the notification.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We are not dependent on them now since the automation of the GRO. We now automatically data match on an ongoing basis.

Is Ms Lacey saying that since then there has been a clampdown and it is not possible any more for a pension to be claimed in this way?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It should not be possible any more unless somebody died outside the State. Even in this regard, we did a mail shot to people living abroad in receipt of the State contributory pension and we got results from that when people did not reply and so on. In addition, even before the automation, we did routine reviews but it meant from time to time somebody had to visit homes, which was much more labour intensive and presented more opportunities to miss out on people who died in an area.

With regard to welfare tourism, one hears reports of people claiming jobseeker's allowance while living in Northern Ireland. There was a story about Ballyconnell, County Cavan, which has 747 residents, but it had 1,300 welfare claimants.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I am glad the Deputy raised this. Ballyconnell was identified on television as having a population of 700 but it has a huge hinterland and 14,000 people are covered by the Ballyconnell office. The figures given on television were correct in that 700 people were living in the town but 14,000 live in Ballyconnell, Belturbet, Carrigallen, Corlough, Killeshandra, Redhills and Swanlinbar. We kept an eye on this but the increase in the live register was slightly below the national average and we undertook initiatives such as the multi-agency vehicle checks and stringent checks at claims stage if the person had a previous address in Northern Ireland. They all received a home visit to ensure they were living here and the level of cross-Border claiming fell off. However, it is something we are keeping under review and we have assigned additional inspectors to the north west to address that.

Is Ms Lacey confident it is being addressed because——-

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I cannot guarantee that everything is covered. Misinformaton was given out that time. It was unfortunate that people looked at it as being the town but our offices do not just cover a town, they cover the entire hinterland.

To reiterate what Ms Lacey said, RTE said there were 747 people in Ballyconnell but the Department said the office covers 14,000 individuals.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We are looking at the census figure for 2006. There were 14,000 people in the catchment area of the Ballyconnell office.

It was a serious misrepresentation of the position and that programme caused a great deal of consternation, particularly——

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I am glad I had the opportunity to address the issue.

I refer to the issue of PPS numbers. Every child receives a card in the post but there is concern that it is too easy to obtain a PPS number and there is evidence of this in the media.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

A fraud and error survey was conducted on PPS numbers a few years ago and the error rate was around 1%. We have put in place a number of actions to minimise the possibility. Whereas the 64 local offices used to issue the number, we have brought that down to 27 and we are aiming for one per county so that staff will be more concentrated with a level of expertise in recognising documentation and in making appropriate inquiries and so on.

The other issue we had was that sometimes people would come in with fraudulent documentation and when it was queried, they would take their papers and run away. We have taken powers in legislation to retain the documentation because it is a criminal offence to present fraudulent documentation for the purposes of getting a social welfare payment. We have, therefore, moved in a number of areas. We have increased the equipment we have for recognising fraud. We also get information from other countries through their embassies and so on about where, say, passports have been stolen. From time to time there are different countries where the passport was attacked. For one period, we noticed there were many coming from Portugal and then from Italy and they move around all the time but we have to keep an eye on them. We take a great deal of action in that area. The staff are also trained up seriously on it. We pursued 12 prosecutions in 2009 to deal with that and we have had 43 arrests.

The Department has changed in that area. Is it not the case that the incidence of fraud is approximately 1%?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

A survey carried a couple of years ago showed an incidence of approximately 1%.

From how many cases?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Approximately 500,000 PPS numbers were issued since 2004 which takes into account all the eastern Europeans who came to the country. This is in addition to the 60,000 numbers issued per year to children born in this country. Of that number, 1% were found to be fraudulent. A difficulty arises in that we do not always know when people leave the country in order to put a stop on their PPS numbers.

Does Ms Lacey think a case can be made for making it more difficult to acquire PPS numbers? The application process is certainly more stringent in other countries.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We have made it more difficult. Whereas people used to go to their local offices, they now attend a specifically designated PPS centre staffed by officials who are trained in recognising fraudulent documentation and the kind of inquiries to make. We hope to introduce the new public services cards by the end of the year but they will take three years to roll out to the entire population. The cards will include photographic identification.

Does Ms Lacey think that will improve the situation?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

When we issuing cards with photographic identification, we will re-interview all those who already have PPS numbers on cards and ensure that is stringent conditions are attached. Cards with photographs attached will clearly be high quality.

What about new entrants or people who seek a PPS number for the first time? Obviously, they cannot be issued with cards retrospectively.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We will issue them to new people and to pensioners for the purpose of free travel and the integrated ticketing system. That is the objective we are working towards by the end of the year. Over a three-year period, we hope everybody will get the new card. We are ambitious.

In regard to staff training, Ms Lacey outlined her areas of focus. She noted that the Department lost 600 staff.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We lost 300 staff.

The Department lost 300 experienced staff. This must leave quite a hole in its resources and expertise. I have experienced significant delays in the processing of payments and applications, although I accept the Department is being inundated with requests. How is it managing with the resources available to it?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

As I noted, we lost 300 experienced staff but we also took on an additional 600 staff overall. Approximately 200 of these were replacements for staff who were leaving. We still have a gap because a considerable number of staff left towards the end of last year. We took on the extra staff to deal with the growth in the live register. We are taking a new training approach to up-skill them in decision making and other areas.

Given that the live register increased by more than 250,000 in the space of two years, regardless of what we did we were never going to be able to avoid delays. We regretted these delays and we worked extremely hard to minimise their effects and we are now down to a figure of 11% of claims on hand in the local offices. At the best of times that figure would be 9% to 10%. The average time is three weeks for jobseeker's benefit. I can outline the overall averages but the problem is that figures can vary in parts of the country where, for example, an investigator has left. We are filling those gaps as fast as we can and I am confident that we have made the big jump forward. I hope the worst is over.

Has the current go slow affected the Department's work?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Naturally it has inconvenienced people but it has not yet affected turnaround times.

It has had an effect.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The office closures have inconvenienced people but that is inevitable. I do not want to discuss industrial relations issues today.

I understand that. It is difficult to get answers locally at present and people are approaching their local representatives for information. I seek an assurance that applications are being processed without delay because this is the most important element.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

At present, the turnaround time is down to 11% on hand. In most cases jobseeker's benefit claims are being processed in two to two and a half weeks. The figure for jobseeker's allowance in a little over six weeks because the assessment of such claims takes longer.

Did Ms Lacey have any luck in getting the figures on child benefit?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

They are on their way.

What is the Department's total staff complement and what is the optimal figure?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We have 4,700 posts and 5,400 staff at present because some of them are working part time or work sharing.

Does that figure include transfers from other Departments?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Yes, it does because they transferred in on a permanent basis.

Do many of posts in the Department remain unfilled?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

By and large, we are pretty near our staff complement at this stage. As is the case with claims processing, not all are in the exact area we would prefer. This is why we had to move 700 staff internally over the past year to fill positions. We suppressed some posts in back offices in order to fill front office positions dealing with claim processing.

The Department's global spend is in the region of €22 billion and there have been a number of reports of fraud and error. Can Ms Lacey put a figure on fraud as a percentage of the total spent?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

As I explained previously, the figure in two areas, disability allowance and lone parents payments, are at around 7%. The overall figure for fraud is about 3% of spend.

What does that mean in monetary terms?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It is about €660 million.

That is a significant sum.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The nature of our business means that all of our figures are large. Whenever one multiplies the rate by the volumes involved one will always arrive at a very large number.

Where an unjustified payment is detected, how does the Department decide that it made an overpayment involving error or fraud?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It would depend on the nature of the overpayment and we would have to investigate the reason for it. If it pertained to means, we would have to investigate what happened to the person. Had the person got the means all along? It might be the case that there was a shift in his or her work patterns entailing an income increase or whatever. Where people are cohabiting, is there evidence to show that the person had been cohabiting for a longer period, and so on?

All the details have to be examined in terms of the documents and in the light of interviews with the client, other evidence from, say, the data matching and so on to see whether overpayment is indicated. It has then to be a determined whether a revised decision will be made from a current or an earlier date.

If one takes all of the overpayments across all the schemes, how many of those that were unjustified would not be regarded as overpayments?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I do not have that figure because each decision is made by an individual officer. However, it is something we are looking at. We will review our overall control policy this year to see whether we can come up with a newer more strategic approach to deal with the current environment. Our strategy was drawn up a few years ago. We are now looking at the current environment. We will review what happens when somebody makes a decision and the issues he or she take into account to see whether there are situations where people should raise questions on overpayments where, perhaps, they are not raising them. In the event, we may be able to come up with clearer guidelines on how that should be done.

We have seen that the insurance industry, for example, has a campaign on insurance fraud. Has the Department any plans for a public awareness campaign on the general public reporting social welfare fraud, because ultimately it costs everybody, and it is being perceived to be anti-social?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We do not have any plans of that nature at the moment. We did some of this some years back, but did not find it to be particularly effective. As the Deputy is probably aware, however, we are getting more reports from the public now about social welfare fraud. About one in six of such reports prove to be beneficial. Sometimes people report fraud when they see someone they know to be getting a social welfare payment going out to work. However, we might have already been notified by the person concerned that this is based on a disregard of means or whatever, and he or she could be entitled to it.

Even one in six notifications can be significant. The last figure I saw indicated that we were close to 7,000 such reports. If more than 1,000 of these turn out to be beneficial, that would justify encouraging the public to notify us.

Perhaps in the current climate it might be beneficial to——

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We have provided an online facility for people to report, so that they can do it anonymously.

Does the Department have a dedicated hotline? What Deputy Collins is raising is very important. On awareness being a deterrent, Deputy Collins referred to the insurance federation, and there is also the television licence campaign. It is a matter of people thinking of claiming social welfare being aware of the possible consequences.

Perhaps Ms Lacey might elaborate on that before we move on.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We have a single national line that goes into our control division in Carrick-on-Shannon which people can ring to report fraud. People report into the local office as well. I do not have details of those, specifically, but there is a single national line.

If it is not advertised then how would people know to ring that number?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It is on all of our press releases and it is on the web. I take the Vice-Chairman's point, however, and it is something we can look at.

Perhaps if the Department carried out a cost benefit analysis, that might be useful. I believe Ms Lacey mentioned 1,000 cases out of 7,000. It might be interesting to know what 1,000 might yield in terms of savings and what a campaign would cost.

On the one-parent family payment, Ms Lacey said that 7% arises from non-disclosure of means or cohabitation details. She went on to state that at the local level information is received from some local authorities. Which local authorities do not supply information?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Mainly we receive it from Dublin and Cork which are the two main areas, and Sligo as well. This is something that was initiated only recently and we are working with the different local authorities to find out how we might exchange information with them.

It is not a case of non co-operation, then?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

No, it is something that we are developing at the moment. It is working quite well with the local authorities that are involved and we intend to pursue the initiative with others as the opportunities arise.

In her opening statement Ms Lacey referred to the special investigation unit and said that was currently being reconfigured as a national unit. Can she enlighten us somewhat more in that regard?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

At present we have seven regions and the special investigation unit staff is based in each of them. While they will still be based in the regions we are drawing up a central policy on the standards to be applied, the targets to be pursued and so on, to pull together the information being gathered around the country so that there is a national strategic response to the high risk sectors, places for example, wherein there are large cash volumes in use as well as certain other sectors that are open to fraud and abuse.

It is a matter of looking at things such as non-residency, working and claiming, identity fraud and so on. This will allow a more integrated approach to the prevention, deterrence and detection of fraud and ensure that the control policy is implemented consistently in a standardised manner across the Department. It will also facilitate a more central point from which to deal with the other agencies, such as Revenue, NERA and so on in developing the various control reviews we do.

On the Department's internal controls, it has a large number of persons working for it and a large spend. Are there any instances of fraud in regard to staff?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We have an internal control unit that investigates the activities of the staff in terms of performance and so on. We have a small number of people who abuse their positions from time to time, either through fraudulent behaviour or as regards data protection infringements such as the misuse of information available to them. We take a very serious view of that, in the event.

Has the Department any prosecutions pending in that regard at the moment?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

There are one or two cases in the pipeline, but I do not want to say too much in that regard.

I represent a rural constituency and there is a small community of elderly people who exist below the radar, so to speak. I came across two incidents recently, one involving a person in his or her late sixties and one in his or her early seventies who were never registered in terms of a PPS number, and as such were not visible on the Department's radar, not through ill-intent on their part, I might add. They would have approached public representatives such as me and colleagues seeking assistance about their entitlements. Has the Department any campaign to target people such as this whom I would regard as being vulnerable? It is a small number of people, but they are there.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We do not. Most people are registered at some stage. Even in the old days, some people would have registered either through work, claiming or whatever. Those who have not, in general would come to us on reaching pension age Even in older days some people registered at some stage, either through work or claiming or whatever, and those who have not done so would, in general, come to us when they reach pension age. It is very difficult to target the individuals. We have a process now whereby we can determine from our central records that someone is approaching pension age. We can notify such people that they are approaching pension age and if they wish to make a claim they may do so. It would be very difficult to target such people when we do not have any record at all.

I came across two such cases quite recently.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It is something we could examine to see if there is any way to do so, but it is very difficult to see how one could pick up on it.

I thank Deputy Collins. The Secretary General referred to prosecutions in her opening statement and said that such cases were only taken where there was an expectation that the debtor has sufficient means to discharge the debt. There is another reason to prosecute people in terms of criminal prosecutions which the Secretary General mentioned. There is a fraud level of about 3%. There were 328 cases to be completed in court. I am referring to criminal prosecutions and not just looking at this on the basis of a return of money to the Exchequer. If people are claiming social welfare payments fraudulently they should be prosecuted. Is there another figure bar that, or is that the total figure?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The number of cases totalling 357 is the number we referred to the Chief State Solicitor's office. That is approximately the maximum number the Chief State Solicitor's office can cope with.

What happens to a person who the Department finds has over-claimed or fraudulently claimed but who has no means of paying it back? Does the Department simply leave such people alone?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

There may be some confusion. We prosecute people for fraudulently claiming. I referred to the fact that we do not pursue people for the recovery of the overpayment in civil court.

That was the clarification I required. The figure referred to the number of cases that went to court in civil actions.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

No. They were the cases that went to court for criminal prosecution. The numbers for civil action are very low. They would be in double figures. Generally, if we take and prosecute cases through the courts, those involved make attempts to repay. Another factor is the Department may be pursuing an employer who has gone out of business.

I welcome the Secretary General and I appreciate the work she does. The volume of people with which the Department must deal on a weekly basis is phenomenal. We accept that generally the systems are very good. As Deputies, we draw on our experience on the ground, not only what is contained in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. We can confirm the Department has carried out a great deal of verification in respect to non-Irish people claiming child benefit. I have encountered a very difficult case involving an English woman married to an Irish man. The Department sent forms every three months to be signed by the school, the pre-school or the general practitioner, if the children in question were not old enough for school. The Department's programme has been very extensive in that regard in the past year.

How many people have been struck off as a result of this quarterly check? I have met several such people. Such people return one month later when they receive certificates which must be stamped in school. It is very good the Department does this because there are people pretending their kids are in certain places but they may not actually be there. I have encountered cases where several people have had monthly child benefit payments suspended. When such people go back to school, they maintain they are tired of receiving these forms every three months. I do not suggest the Department should not send them but it is important that the figures at issue, that is, the number of non-Irish people who claim child benefit are accurate. Will such figures include Irish people or an English spouse married to an Irish person who has never left the country before? I have no wish for the impression to go out that they are all——

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I will clarify that. The majority of the certifications we carry out relate to non-Irish people. It is to ensure they are here.

Does that relate to cases involving one non-Irish parent, which could be an English person?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Yes. We have also started a process of certification of a percentage of Irish people as well to ensure they are still here, because Irish people travel as well. There is not the same level in that case. The Deputy asked about the figures. We issued a total of 70,000 residency certificates between November 2007 and December 2008 and a further 10,000 employment certificates in that period. This resulted in terminations of a little in excess of 3,000 claims.

Does that amount to at least 5%?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It is 3,000 out of 80,000.

Regarding the number of terminations, does the Secretary General know how many were reinstated one month later when documentation was produced, or were such terminations permanent?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Generally, when someone does not respond we suspend the payment. If, over a period of time, those concerned do not come back, we close the claim.

That is the procedure for claims that are closed, but there have been several suspensions such as those cases to which I referred.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We have a higher level of suspensions because perhaps people do not come back in time or whatever. When we stop the payment, they respond. Sometimes people move and do not inform the Department they have changed address.

I admire the system and the job the Department does. There is a feeling generally that the system is widely abused. The Department is tackling this, as we have seen. Does the Department have any difficult with co-operation from school principals? From my colloquial knowledge, they appear to be co-operating. Does the Department receive widespread co-operation or is there a difficulty in this regard?

Deputy Deirdre Clune took the Chair.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We have received no reports to that effect. The parents deal with the schools and get the forms signed.

I was keen to refer to the matter because such incidents have taken place. We can confirm the checks to which the Secretary General referred to are being dealt with. In his opening statement, the Comptroller and Auditor General stated some of the over-payments would not have been made to the extent they were made, had the Department acted on information already in its systems. Will the Secretary General explain this? That is a hands-up job.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I refer to the disability allowance and carer's allowance. We receive earnings data at the end of each year from the Revenue. This is put on our central records system. Until recently — we are still working on it — the systems were not linked together. There should have been a physical system under which people would match the two sets of data but that did not take place.

The disability allowance is meant to be for people who have a long-term illness. Over the years certain latitudes were given and people were allowed to take up certain levels of employment. Such people would have what we term "income disregards". That continued but a data match should have been carried out to ensure people did not exceed the income disregards or that those who were working notified us and gave us the authority in advance to do so. In response to the outcome from the fraud and error survey, we have instituted regular data matching in respect of these schemes. We also hold commencement of employment details which we receive from the Revenue. When an employer takes on someone it is obliged to inform the Revenue that it has begun to employ that person and the Revenue passes that information to us on an ongoing basis. We match up that data.

How often does the Department match up the data?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I understand this is done every month.

I refer to some of the overpayments, especially those involving the carer's allowance. We have all encountered cases in which a P60 form showed up at the end of the year. I recall holding this exact discussion two years ago and I complained to the Department that this had arisen in a previous report. One could argue people should have known but a person's income may have turned out to be higher during the course of a year than they could have know when they signed on for the carer's allowance. Such people are then chased for overpayment. The State has a responsibility to match this information earlier because it places a phenomenal, frightening burden on some people, especially when the Department comes after them for overpayment and refers to ceasing further payments. There is no malintent in such cases. Such people may receive a carer's allowance and a spouse's income may have risen during the course of the year. Often, there can be a long interval during which P35 forms are processed and the Department matches its information. The Department may then contact those who have been claiming. I believe there is a greater duty on the State to ensure this does not take place. We had a similar conversation approximately two years ago. The situation may have improved but delays are still happening. There are bound to be problems when there is such a time lag in receiving P60 annual returns from Revenue.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I accept that we should have acted sooner in the case to which the Deputy referred and we have instituted a number of changes in response. Earnings information is not available during the year. The Revenue Commissioners do not have it and nor do we. The earliest we can get that information is the end of the year. We receive notification of a person starting employment so we can contact such a person at that time but if his or her income goes up during the year we do not get that information until the end of the year.

When the Department gets notification from the Revenue Commissioners that a person in receipt of carer's allowance, or their spouse, has commenced employment, does the Department write to remind them? It would be helpful to put them on notice that there is an issue. I have never seen such a letter but it could advise people to be careful if their income goes above a certain level. It would put them on notice so that they do not fall into problems.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We would contact somebody who was taking up employment. A carer taking up employment is only entitled to work for 15 hours a week so such people should notify us in advance.

It could be the spouse of the carer. The means test is based on the household income of the carer and the spouse so a second PPS number is required. Accepting an offer of employment could come back to haunt a couple 18 months later. I am not complaining about the Department following up on the issue but I would like there to be a more proactive approach because ordinary, decent people are walking into trouble as a result of taking up employment.

Deputy Darragh O'Brien resumed the Chair.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It would not be possible to follow up on every carer because there is no way we could match them to their spouse's details. We sent out 3,000 mailshots to carers last year, telling them the conditions and asking them to ensure they were still in compliance with them. That is how we address the situation on an ongoing basis.

The Secretary General said 357 cases went to the Office of the Chief State Solicitor and 26 to the Garda Síochána. Can she explain what type of case goes to the DPP, what type to the Garda and what type to the Chief State Solicitor?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The 26 cases which went to Garda were for impersonation. If a person assumes another person's identity it is a straightforward Garda case.

That is a criminal case.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

They are all criminal cases but that is one which gardaí pursue in a particular way. The Chief State Solicitor takes the other 357 cases, which involve a variety of factors, such as concealment of information.

The Department collects information and then passes it on to gardaí for prosecutions.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Yes. We prepare files on people who have obtained payments irregularly.

In 26 cases the Department needed to call in gardaí to assist.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Impersonation cases are usually dealt with straight away. If we are aware of somebody doing such a thing we act immediately.

I have a couple of questions on other issues. Ms Lacey said that information was received from local authority tenancy records as regards cohabitation. That must be the element with the highest risk throughout the country. Can Ms Lacey give more information on discussions with local authorities on this matter? When a couple cohabit in a local authority housing estate but claim a single parent's allowance, they will probably not declare it for the purposes of their local authority rent. The State and the taxpayer are being hit twice. They are hit once by the Department of Social and Family Affairs because of the claim for cohabiting and again by the failure of these people to declare this to the council. Ms Lacey might say that is not for her Department to deal with but it is a classic case on which the Department should meet local authority housing officers. It has only done so on three or four occasions and this problem will take a bit more than mailshots to solve.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

There are two factors. The local authority will notify us where there are two names on the tenancy.

That is a hopeless affair.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

That is how we find out that there is cohabitation. If there is only one name on the tenancy we cannot prove people are cohabiting.

That applies when somebody does not declare it to the Department but declares it to the council but I am more concerned about people who neither declare their circumstances to the Department nor the council.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

In such cases it is much more difficult to prove cohabitation. The only way we could do it is by spending days and days watching houses.

That is why I suggest meeting housing authorities.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

That is our intention. We have started the process with councils.

How long has this been happening? I know Ms Lacey referred to Dublin, Sligo and Cork.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We only started it in the past year. We are seeing how it works and will review it before we decide to continue.

Would the Department consider working with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to arrange a meeting with the housing department of each local authority to fast track it, instead of rolling it out gradually with three this year and three the following year? After ten years the Department will finally have met all 30 authorities but the original housing officers will not be there by then. It is a concern for local authorities but the concern is mutual in that it would protect taxpayers' interests. The vast majority of people are law abiding but the risk is higher than 7% so I would be grateful if the Department would consider my suggestion.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We will certainly look at it. The reason we have only done two or three so far is that we always trial things first to see how they work. If they are beneficial we will roll it out on a national basis.

Ms Lacey mentioned Dublin but did she mean the four local authorities or the city council?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Dublin City Council.

It would fast track the whole process if the Department spent an afternoon meeting housing officers. We like to see some joined-up government and there is a group of people who constitute a high risk to both local authorities and the Department.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It is our intention to meet with them, Deputy.

I was also asked about payments to non-Irish cases. There are 66,000 to people in the EU.

Are they people whose children live abroad?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The number receiving payments for children living abroad is 5,500.

Is that a figure for the EU?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The non-EU figure is 31,000. There are just over 66,000 to the EU27. Of those, in 5,500 cases the children live abroad.

But within the EU?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Yes. The non-EU cases amount to 31,200. These are people who are in this country.

There is a total of some 5,500 people working here but whose children live abroad.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Of the cases where the children live abroad there are 5,500 customers involving 8,800 children.

Are these people who have no right to receive money?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

No. These are people who receive payments.

Please allow the Secretary General to go through the figures.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

There are 8,800 children of the 5,500 individuals who are working here but their children are in the EU, because outside of the EU it does not apply.

That is fine. There are 31,000 non-EU customers claiming for how many children?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Some 65,000 children.

Are they all here?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Yes.

Will the Secretary General clarify her definition of those parents who are working? She mentioned that these are people who are working.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

They must have come here to work and if they lose their job and are entitled to a social welfare payment——

Then the allowance is allowed.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

——they continue to be entitled to the benefit.

But they would have had to have worked at some stage. Is that what the Accounting Officer is saying?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Yes. For the children abroad, the parent still has to be working here.

It is important that those points are clarified because a good deal of misinformation goes out about that issue.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The Deputy asked for the direct telephone line for fraud, the number is 1890 927999.

I welcome the Secretary General and her officials. At the outset I heard the Secretary General refer to the Ballyconnell case which Deputy Clune raised. There is an implication that RTE was at fault in putting out misleading figures but the Minister actually quoted that case last March on RTE. It is unfair to blame RTE when the misrepresentation had been made by the Minister. Another issue that is sometimes misleading is the number of people who ring in to make complaints. It is often stated that there has been a substantial increase in the number of people making complaints. That is welcome and should be encouraged. We also know, and this point is often not made, that very few of those cases actually stand up, so it is misleading to say that there has been a 70% increase in calls.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I did say it was only one in six that proved official.

I am aware of that but those figures are often quoted and are misleading. The overall message from the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, bearing in mind that it is for 2008, is that there is a serious lack of clarity about the figures used by the Department. The Comptroller and Auditor General was quite critical of the absence of adequate performance indicators within the Department when it came to overpayment and fraud. I take issue with the system used for calculating fraud and overpayment. For a start, both are put in together. It would be much more helpful if we could separate overpayments, where a genuine mistake was made on the part of the Department, and fraudulent claims.

I also take issue with the method of calculation for the savings made by the Department. I am not sure that the use of a multiplier and projecting forward on the basis of a person continuing to claim in error, or through fraud for, say, 136 weeks is an accurate way of calculating the performance. If we got information that told us how many people were detected in respect of fraudulent claims and how long they had been claiming fraudulently we would have an accurate figure of the extent of fraud and we would also have an accurate figure, if one was in a position to provide those figures, for the extent of overpayment or mistakes and errors made by the Department. The way in which the figures are presented is confusing, a matter to which the Comptroller and Auditor General referred. For example, in 2008, it was claimed that a sum of €476 million was saved on the basis of projecting forward whereas only €21 million was actually attributable to fraud and in total only €27 million was recovered. They are fantasy figures in some ways if one is talking about savings of €476 million but that is if they continue to be paid in error or fraudulently. The Comptroller and Auditor General drew attention to the fact that there are inadequate performance indicators in the Department and the fuzziness about the big figures. What do those figures mean? Has action been taken to address those points?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I take the Deputy's point to some extent. The multiplier was introduced following studies carried out here and in the UK in the 1980s. It is only an assessment of the value one might put on the activity. Its value is in measuring one year against the next in terms of whether one has improved or disimproved. We are moving more towards doing fraud and error surveys. I take the Deputy's point that it is possible to separate fraud from error. Sometimes it very clear that it arises from a mistake somebody made, sometimes it is clear that a person tried to defraud the Department and sometimes there are people on the margin. At a macro level we have a breakdown between what is fraud, what is error, what is departmental fraud and so on. I take it that what the Deputy would like is a breakdown at scheme level between the various figures. That is an area we are moving towards. The problem with the fraud and error survey is that we have the capacity only to do two per year but we are targeting the very high level schemes and that is probably a better way for us to move with the——

The issue of resources is critical. Given the scale of the Department's budget of almost €22 billion, there is an obligation on the Department to ensure the public purse is protected. As far back as 2003, the Comptroller and Auditor General said there was a need to move towards regular fraud and error surveys. In the five years between 2003 and 2008, only 11 such surveys were conducted which showed up very significant levels of fraud.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We have identified the four areas where there are significant levels of fraud. In respect of the other schemes the fraud and error rate is 1% which, in overall terms, is relatively small. Our focus is on those schemes where there are high levels of fraud and error. Currently we are completing a jobseeker's fraud and error survey, the report of which we hope to have in the next month or so. This year we will conduct a fraud and error survey on disability allowance and one-parent family payment as they are the critical areas. In addition we have our continuing fraud control activities, data matching, earnings, home visits and so on. The fraud and error survey is the one that provides an indication of what is likely to be happening within the scheme.

When one reads the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, and, in particular, these three chapters, they are quite critical of the Department's performance. There is a sense that those criticisms are not been taken seriously and it appears very little progress is being made. Also it would appear to be a complete false economy not to allocate sufficient staff to fraud and overpayment detection.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We have 600 people working on the fraud and control side which is a substantial proportion of the staff. The surveys take about three months to conduct and even if one is surveying only 1,000 claims it is a huge investment of manpower. One could not simply do that all the time.

But the potential savings are huge as well.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

They are in the four schemes we have identified. By the end of this year a further three schemes will have been put through the process.

Two fraud and error surveys per year seem very little, given the strong recommendation going back to 2003.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It is in respect of the four schemes that were identified as having the real problem. That is not to say we will not go back and review some of the others at a later date.

I would like to move on as I do not want to hold up the meeting too long. The question of identity fraud is a growing issue. We know that the Department has done a great deal of work on developing an integrated services card. Is that card capable of taking biometric information?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The card will be capable of taking biometric information but we will not be putting biometric information on it in the initial stages. The person's photograph will be on it.

When is it expected that the photograph ID services card will be rolled out fully?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We hope to start rolling it out in the final quarter of this year and it will take about three years to have it fully rolled out to all the population.

The Comptroller and Auditor General has been very critical of the Department's performance in data matching and has calculated that about 80% of the overpayments could have been avoided if there had been better data matching in the Department as it actually had the information to detect overpayments or fraud. What steps have been taken to improve the data matching? What steps have been taken to improve data matching with other agencies, for example, in ensuring that it collects PPS numbers for landlords to ensure tax compliance, as the Public Accounts Committee went into that in some detail? How is the Department handling maintenance orders from the Courts Service and ensuring that it has the data on maintenance orders for one-parent family payments? I have come across a situation where an elderly person who had gone into a nursing home had continued to receive a fuel allowance and household benefit package. Is there now a system in place to pick up such information?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

As I explained earlier, we have been moving from a very old computer system to putting everything on the one system. By the end of this year, we would hope to have the disability allowance and invalidity pension on our new system. The more schemes we have on the one system, the less opportunity there is for duplicate payments or fraudulent claiming. In the new system, there is better communication and exchange of data between schemes. The schemes are required to data match all the earnings at the end of the year that come in from Revenue against the claims that we have. The Comptroller and Auditor General raised the fact that we had the earnings but we did not match them against the claims we had. I accept that was mismanagement on our part. We have instigated a process where that will not happen. There is data matching and checking between our own systems and we are moving from very old computer systems so that we have better integration of all data.

The Deputy raised the issue of PPS numbers for landlords. Now when a person is claiming rent supplement, he or she is required to get the landlord to fill in the data. We can get the PPS number in that way. Some landlords do not want to put their PPS number on the form, so we transmit the information automatically to Revenue and that includes those landlords who have not given a PPS number. That is a trigger to Revenue to go and check that individual as well.

Is the Department not in a position to refuse rent supplement if a landlord refuses to provide a PPS number?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

No. The rent supplement is a payment to an individual not the landlord, so one cannot stop the payment to the individual.

Why does the Department not set down the conditions for the payment of rent supplement?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It would be a different scheme, then it would be a payment to the landlord rather than the tenant.

Not necessarily. It could be a requirement that the person would obtain a PPS number for the landlord.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It would be putting the onus on a person who is in a difficult position of trying to get accommodation to try to get what a landlord might consider to be personal information. He or she may not want to give PPS number if there is high turnover in accommodation.

The Department is paying out almost €500 million in rent supplement. There is an obligation on the Department to ensure there is tax compliance.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

That is the reason we pass on the information to Revenue so that it can pursue the landlords.

Is Ms Lacey saying that she is precluded from insisting on getting the PPS number?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Yes.

On what basis?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Under data protection of the individual, should he or she not want to hand over his or her PPS number.

That is something we need to revisit.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Should the Deputy talk to Revenue about this, she will find it is a much smaller issue now.

What percentage of landlords are refusing to provide the PPS number?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I do not have that information Deputy.

Will Ms Lacey provide the committee with it?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I will see if we can acquire it.

Will Ms Lacey write to the committee with that information?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It may be difficult to acquire it at the moment, because the community welfare officers have the information and as members will be aware, there is a difficulty in getting information these days.

Are the forms sent to the central office in the Department?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The person fills out the form and it goes to the landlord. The landlord fills in the details and that is then entered onto our computer system and the information is transferred automatically to Revenue.

Would Ms Lacey have the figures for 2009?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I will check it and revert to the Deputy.

What is the position in respect of maintenance orders?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We do not have an automatic interaction with the Courts Service.

Is that not a serious gap in the information?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

That is not something we have pursued with the Courts Service. When a person claims a lone-parent payment, he or she is obliged to state what action he or she has taken to look for maintenance from the partner or the father of the child and what maintenance is being paid and so on.

This is one of the schemes where it is established that there is a reasonably high level of fraud. It strikes me that there should be a system in place to ensure that information is passed from the Courts Service on maintenance orders.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I take the Deputy's point, but it would not be the main area leading to fraud.

That is fine, but the State has access to this information and surely it should be shared.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It is done through the individual rather than direct contact with the Courts Service.

Has Ms Lacey explored the possibility of so doing?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It is not something we have pursued but I will follow up on it.

Is there any system in place for the HSE to notify the Department when pensioners go into full-time nursing home care?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

May I ask Ms Waldron to explain the situation?

Ms Maureen Waldron

The pensions system and household benefits are on the computer platform that is know as BOM, so there is automatic tracking between both now. The scenario the Deputy raised could have happened in the past but should not happen from here on in, as the system is the same system and is being tracked across it.

Does the HSE notify the Department?

Ms Maureen Waldron

No, not the HSE

How does the Department pick up on the person going into a nursing home?

Ms Maureen Waldron

I was responding to the free fuel schemes. In respect of nursing homes, we have introduced legislation whereby the Department will check on nursing homes on a regular basis. We have legislation to do a check of nursing homes on a yearly or two-yearly basis.

Does this apply from this year onwards?

Ms Maureen Waldron

Yes.

We discussed a report on employers not passing on PRSI payments and using it instead for cash flow in the company. What is the detection and recovery rates of employer's PRSI which is not paid over to the Department?

Ms Maureen Waldron

The reviews by the inspectors indicate that there is a fairly high level of compliance. In 2009, 740 inspections of employers were carried out and 89% of the employers were found to be compliant. Employers found not to be compliant, depending on the extent, would normally be prosecuted, both for not keeping proper records and not paying PRSI.

That non-compliance rate is presumably increasing, given what has happened.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Yes. The compliance rate reached its peak in 2007, when compliance was 96%. Last year, the level of compliance was 89%. We are keeping an eye on this and will be ratcheting up.

How many prosecutions were there last year?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

For employers, there were nine.

Out of how many? On the basis of 89% compliance?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Last year would relate to earlier years but the previous year we had examined almost 1,200 and 95 were not in compliance. It is about 5% of 1,200, about 60. We prosecuted nine of them.

Nine out of 60? That is good.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Not all of the 60 would be at a level where one would take a prosecution.

It is significant that 11% of employers are not passing on PRSI.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

That is a major jump. It was 93, 94, 96, 95 from 2005-08, with a figure of 89% for last year.

That is a significant loss to the Exchequer.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It is a very big jump and we are focusing on it.

We can come back to this on 29 April when we are dealing with the Social Insurance Fund. I ask in the meantime that we get up-to-date information. It is an area the committee is looking at in detail and has reported on. When we are dealing with that on 29 April, we perhaps could bar the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Ms Lacey could bring as much up-to-date information as possible.

On the payment of child benefit to non-resident children, many people wonder why we are doing that, given that the payment reflects the cost of rearing a child in Ireland, which is relatively high compared with other EU countries. It is hard to see why it should be paid to non-resident children where it is worth a multiple of its value here. Ms Lacey said there are 8,800 children in receipt of child benefit who are non-resident. What systems are in place to verify the existence of those children?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

When the claim is made initially, we go into great detail. In Poland we will go to a very local level to get information back from social security agencies. They will verify the children exist, who is responsible for them and if the person claiming child benefit for them here is maintaining the children. It is verified in depth, along with any other information about the maintenance of the child, before we will make the payment.

It must require a lot of staff resources.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It has eased off now but there were huge delays a year or two ago. That was part of the reason we wrote in every single case to the local social welfare agency and received the information back. Our means of insuring they are still there is the certification process.

I apologise for missing part of the discussion.

My experience is that the children of our immigrant workers probably live with their grandparents. Would someone in Poland or Latvia visit the household to establish the children are there?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Yes, they check birth certificates and documents, applying the same controls as they do for their own systems.

Are we sure all children of non-EEA area nationals are in Ireland?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

They must go through the same certification process at the beginning and on a quarterly basis to verify the child is here. If the child is below school age, the local doctor would certify, and if he or she is attending school, the school will certify.

The Department was liaising with staff on Romania and Bulgaria before they became member states. Many children seemed to have an entitlement but there was a grey area as to whether it was before Romania joined.

The other issue that is difficult for the Department is that both EU and non-EU families can come and go.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

That is the experience and that is why we do regular certification to ensure people are here. We often get the mailshot back as undelivered, with a message stating the family is unknown at the address.

By comparison with earlier years, did the change in the European Union, when the ten new countries entered and there was an explosion in our labour market, create a more difficult situation for the Department in keeping track of people coming and going, particularly in industries such as construction, farming or the hospitality industry, where up to 50% of workers at one stage were foreign? Was it harder to keep track of whether people were entitled to jobseeker's benefit when they ceased working for a particular company?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

When they claimed benefit, we would do a residency check to ensure they were still here. We have also instituted the process whereby they must collect their payment at the post office. They must be in the country to collect it.

That is only recently.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We introduced that provision 18 months ago.

Are child benefit payments made by electronic transfer or by cheque to non-Irish claimants?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

If the child is abroad, it would be paid by electronic transfer.

What if the child is in Ireland?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

In Ireland it would be either.

For jobseeker's allowance, people are paid by EIT in the post office. The post office has introduced more stringent controls on identification, whereby a person must have a photographic supporting document.

So sending someone else to pick up the money is becoming impossible?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It is becoming more difficult all the time. There is no doubt that the more controls we apply, the more people there are out there who are trying to circumvent them. Our job is to constantly look at changing the arrangements. I am confident that in the post office, more rigour is being applied to making sure the right person is in front of them.

What is the net balance in terms of Irish people working abroad who could make a claim on another European Union country for children who live in Ireland? Does such a figure exist?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Traditionally those who went abroad to work in Britain had their child benefit because at that stage British child benefit was higher and often the children would stay here with the mother or grandparents. That applies across the EU, the country where the person is employed is responsible for child benefit.

Does anyone know? Are there still funds like that coming in from Britain?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Yes.

I am aware of it for pensions because the comparable British Department seems to be efficient in terms of representations. The issue was recently raised in the Dáil and the British seemed efficient at getting back to us when we asked about pensions. Is there a figure we can compare?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

With regard to pensions, we have an arrangement whereby we are provided with a record of British pensioners living in Ireland because they may also be getting an Irish pension. The quid pro quo is that we match against the GRO and provide information on deaths.

However, on the child benefit side we do not have a clue.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

My colleague, Ms Maureen Waldron, may be better able to address that issue.

Ms Maureen Waldron

Under EU legislation the country of employment pays child benefit but there are provisions in the regulations whereby if the child benefit is not equal to the amount paid in the home country it can be supplemented. Irish people who are working in the UK and raising their children in Ireland would be paid child benefit by the UK and supplemented by us up to our own level. On that basis we would be able to indicate how many people are in the UK and receiving supplements from us. However, it is a complex system and a lot depends on the rates of payment.

Like many of my colleagues, I have dealt with Polish, Latvian and Romanian immigrants. Do these people receive child benefit payments in their home countries?

Ms Maureen Waldron

They do.

These were socialist states which had total systems to care for their children but now they have changed to our system, do they pay child benefit?

Ms Maureen Waldron

They operate child benefit systems but they are very different to ours. Payments are based on stringent means assessments in many of these countries. Of the 40 million people living in Poland, only 8 million are entitled to child benefit. A Polish person working here would always receive Irish child benefit without a supplement from Poland because the rates in that country are so low.

Is there no chance of a Pole or a Latvian being paid a supplement?

Ms Maureen Waldron

No.

While visiting a factory in my constituency recently, I received a complaint about the avalanche of job losses and people on two or three-day working weeks. The Department does not seem to require employers to sign off on the documentation. The employer was worried that somebody could draw down a full jobseeker's allowance while also working.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The position was the employer would sign a docket each week. Traditionally the numbers were between 12,000 and 15,000 but they have increased to more than 60,000 in recent times. The manual process of getting the dockets and turning them around was so cumbersome that it became impossible to get payment to the individuals concerned on time. Employers were also complaining of the extent to which this was putting an imposition on them.

The employers to whom I spoke thought the opposite. They believe it is a matter that the Comptroller and Auditor General will be investigating in 2011 or 2012. There is a black market in this area yet the Department is discontinuing a vital check.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I explained how, where and why we changed the procedure. Employers expressed differing views. Some employers expressed the concern that they were unable to find people to work full time because of this system but they have only to contact us and we will sort it out. Furthermore, we are reviewing the policy because we are introducing a more automated process which will remove a lot of the administration and re-institute the role of the employer.

It seems to encourage some people to misbehave and abuse the system. That is the focus of the chapters we are currently discussing.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I take what the Deputy is saying and we will pursue the matter. The problem is that there are always two sides to these issues. On the one side, employers are complaining that the additional administrative burden——

As my colleague just explained, we have had problems with some employers. However, good employers want to ensure everything is kosher and that the national tax base is not being abused, which is what these reports would indicate. It seems to be counter-productive to remove the check.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We are reviewing the procedure.

When the Secretary General refers to employers, does she mean a submission by an employers' group?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

No, it involved various complaints.

The issues set out by Deputy were raised with me on a couple of occasions. I have not heard anybody complain about doing it. How many employers did the Department consult before arriving at its decision and was it reached on foot of a formal submission by IBEC or ISME?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

No, it was not. Like the Deputies, by engaging with employers we can receive feedback on various issues.

How long ago did the Department stop doing this check?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It was in the middle of 2009.

It could have given rise to circumstances whereby people were able to abuse the system.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

I accept that. We are reviewing the position now that things are easing somewhat and we have more latitude.

What about planning and automating it?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

At present, we have to issue a piece of paper which the person concerned fills in with "Xs" and "Os" to indicate the days he or she worked. We are considering the use of either on-line or SMS texting alongside the other checks and balances that might be introduced.

Obviously that will not be tomorrow or the next day.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It will happen during the first half of this year.

Will the on-line or SMS service be trialled?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

Yes.

I ask Mr. Ó Broin whether it will be ready in the next six months.

Mr. Éoin Ó Broin

A project is about to commence and we expect to sign a contract shortly. The plan is to complete the development work by the end of quarter two and we will be trialling it in some offices during quarter three.

That is good to hear. I agree with Deputy Broughan that if I were the Department I would let people know about it. From my experience, it has been a source of complaint by employers rather than anything else. I note other members concur. I would not keep the project under wraps.

Mr. Éoin Ó Broin

While the employer was taken out of the loop in dealing with casuals, we put alternative controls in place which allowed us to periodically check with employers. However, in light of the concerns expressed by employers and members of the committee we are reconsidering the current practice.

When the Department makes administrative changes or responds to the chapters before us by tightening up systems, does it conduct cost benefit analyses? Perhaps that is also a matter for the Department of Finance. An ongoing cost benefit analysis would highlight the drawbacks and potential for abuse, which might be more costly than the efficiencies realised in scrapping a system.

Mr. Éoin Ó Broin

When we are implementing changes of this nature we normally trial them in a particular office but when the change is implemented across the local office network we undertake checks on employers. The outcomes from these checks indicate the extent of the problem, if any. To date we have not received particular evidence of significant abuse but a number of comments have been made to that effect. That is why we are investigating the matter. What we do will be influenced primarily by the outcome of the employer checks.

To go back, briefly, I may have missed this at the start. What is the figure for overpayments for 2009? I realise the graph was rising over the last three years, and I wondered whether this was still the case in terms of the overpayments we are chasing.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

We have not got the figure yet for 2009.

I would anticipate that the Secretary General will have those figures for our meeting on 29 April. I should be obliged if they could be brought to that meeting.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

They will of course be unaudited at that stage, but we will bring them.

That is understood and we shall state that.

The Oireachtas staff has helpfully given us comparators for other countries with which Ireland has something in common, such as New Zealand, Australia and so forth. Where exactly is Ireland in that cohort? I have been doing the figures, roughly, in terms of overpayments. It seems to be 1% of this €21 billion budget.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

It is 3%.

It is 3% if everything is included. In terms of the comparator countries, including the UK of course, that puts Ireland in the middle, more or less.

What was the figure Ms Lacey mentioned?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The National Audit Office in the UK did a study across eight countries, I believe, within the EU and outside it. It found that it was extremely difficult to make direct comparisons because the systems and approaches are all different.

However, it found that there was somewhere between 2% and 5% fraud. Ireland falls into the 3% category, in the middle, but it is very difficult to stand these figures up since there are no direct comparisons.

On that point, to quote that figure is fine, but the fraud and error surveys show much higher levels of fraud. The one-parent payment accounted for almost 30%, jobseeker's allowance was 16%——

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The fraud level in the one-parent area was 7% in expenditure terms.

Again, there is the difficulty of not separating overpayment and fraud. The payments changed to that extent. Basically, is not the bottom line the fact that we do not know what the fraud rate is in the Department of Social and Family Affairs?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

The fraud and error rate is 7% of expenditure. The other thing changes to cases some of which may not actually——

Is that not based on projecting forward?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

No, this is purely to do with the fraud and error surveys. It is to do with the number of cases which were sampled where there was some type of change. However, in some cases there would have been no change to the payment level — or the payment might have increased.

In most cases there was significant change.

Ms Bernadette Lacey

That would be true, but the actual outcome on the impact of expenditure is 7%.

Is that a more realistic figure to use than 3%?

Ms Bernadette Lacey

That particular scheme shows 7%, but illness schemes, old age pensions and so on are less than 1%. The average, overall, is about 3%, which is comparator that is used relative to experience in other countries. However, I accept that 7% is way too high, and that is why we have change. I would hope that by next year we will have some substantial progress in that area.

Does Deputy Broughan have any further questions?

No, I have finished.

I call on the Comptroller and Auditor General for some final comments.

Mr. John Buckley

Obviously the response of the Department, as the report indicates, is a work in progress, and this is something we shall have to keep under review in the audits of the coming years.

There has been a tremendous improvement in the amount of data sharing throughout the system. The crucial question, however, is data use, to ensure there are prompts to decision makers and staff to ensure consistency so that the information may be used to help adjust claims and so on.

The outcome of risk rating now being done in the schemes will have to be kept under review in our audits and also by the Department, of course, to see the extent to which it will contribute to the reduction in the future.

Finally, as regards performance management, we have been saying for years that we are dubious about the idea of using savings as a measure, and obviously we continue to be so. The big quest is for a measure that will give a true indication of the performance of the control function. If I were to plump for something it would be along the lines of how much of the current year's payment in a particular scheme is irregular. That brings us back to the type of percentages members were looking at in figure 101 such as the 7% error rate for Disability Allowance. That is almost as true a benchmark as one can get against which to measure performance of the control function.

I should have explained that when such benchmarks are set, using random sampling, a test of performance has to be related to the degree of which risk-based results beat the benchmark, for the simple reason risk based reviews are concentrated on those areas which have already been rated and identified as the higher risk categories.

Is it fair to use the 3% figure which by all accounts is very conservative? Given the scale of the budget, at €660 million a year, it is a phenomenal figure. As was said earlier, it is false economy not to devote adequate staff resources to tackling this problem.

I would agree with the Deputy that we are looking at €680 million on the 3% basis. The Secretary General mentioned there were 600 staff in that area. I do not want to open up the discussion again, but I believe understand that the committee is concerned that we are not getting a handle on the real figure for fraud. Perhaps it is something we could look at in more detail at the meeting of 29 April as well.

I know that only certain figures will be available, but we shall leave it at that for the moment. I know the Department has done its best to address the various cases.

Is agreed that the committee disposes of chapter 30 — Welfare Payments in excess of Entitlement, chapter 31 — Review of Welfare Overpayment Cases, and chapter 32 — Recording and Recover of Welfare Overpayments? Agreed.

I should like to thank the Department of Social and Family Affairs, Ms Lacey and her officials for coming in. I should also thank the Department of Finance. I know its officials were not called on very much today, but their presence is much appreciated.

The agenda for the meeting of 4 March is the annual report 2008 of the Comptroller and Auditor General and appropriation accounts: Vote 4 — Health Service Executive, chapter 38 — Performance, Measurement and Improvement in the HSE; and chapter 40 — Dublin Ambulance Service; and the 2008 Financial Statements of the HSE.

The witnesses withdrew.

The committee adjourned at 12.30 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 4 March 2010.

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