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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 20 May 2010

Chapter 26 — Farm Waste Management Scheme Liabilities

Mr. Tom Moran (Secretary General, Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food) called and examined.

I welcome everybody to the meeting. I am sorry for the slight delay, but we had other matters to deal with. We are looking at the 2008 annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts: Vote 31 — Agriculture, Fisheries and Food; chapter 24 — organisational performance in the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food; chapter 25 — farm improvement scheme; and chapter 26 — farm waste management scheme liabilities.

Before we commence, I advise witnesses that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to the committee. If a witness is directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and he or she continues to do so, he or she is entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of the evidence given. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. They are asked to respect parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 158, that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policy or policies.

I welcome Mr. Moran, Secretary General, Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, and invite him to introduce his officials.

Mr. Tom Moran

I thank the Chairman for his introduction. I am accompanied by Mr. Philip Carroll, assistant secretary in charge of human resources, animal health and welfare; Mr. Tony Burke, assistant secretary in charge of the Department's financial control function, as well as a number of other areas; and Mr. Heber McMahon, principal officer in charge of the finance division. Also present are are two officials from the Department of Finance, Mr. David Moloney, assistant secretary, and Ms Áine Stapleton, principal officer.

They are all welcome. I now ask Mr. Buckley to introduce the business to be conducted today.

The full text of chapters 24 to 26, inclusive, can be found in the annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General or on the website of the Comptroller and Auditor General at www.audgen.gov.ie.

Mr. John Buckley

The Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food administered spending of €3.6 billion in 2008, of which €2.1 billion was processed through the Vote, while the balance was processed under various EU schemes. For output reporting purposes, the Department has classified most of its activity in two programmes which account for the bulk of the expenditure. Just over €1 billion was spent on promoting sustainability — economic, social and environmental — as well as structural change in the rural and marine economies. A total of €1.8 billion was paid out to farmers, including €1.2 billion under the single payment scheme.

I will now turn to the chapters in the report. Chapter 24 was designed to produce an overview of how one Department is addressing aspects of the improvement agenda. Three related elements were examined in the course of our audit. These were the results of an organisational review, the extent to which the management information framework has been exploited, and the status of development of output statements. One of the spearheads in the strategic management initiative is the management information framework. This initiative was designed to equip Departments with better information for decision making and reporting. Effectiveness does not derive just from the generation of information, but from the capacity to use it to good effect within the business by keeping track of salient results and using it to plan future initiatives.

Taken together with the findings of other recent work , including the McCarthy and OECD reports, the organisational review would suggest that there may be scope for greater efficiency in resource utilisation; managing shared initiatives and cross cutting programmes is a challenge for Departments; and metrics focused on outputs and outcomes need to be developed.

The results of the review we conducted on the management information framework mirrored those findings and suggest a need to further exploit the capacity of the new information systems to support performance management. Many suggestions are set out in the report, and two in particular that could be exploited more are the generation of standard reports on commitments and accruals in the course of the year in order to aid budget management decisions; and the costing of functions as an aid to a cost-effectiveness review of those functions.

As these initiatives are developed further, thought may need to go into defining output and performance measures and substituting final measures of output for activities and intermediate outputs, as well as creating performance measures and indicators that demonstrate achievements in terms of input cost, planned output or some other relevant benchmark in both internal and external performance reporting. A number of reviews, including the OECD review, have expressed a concern that outputs are not set in quantified terms when this is possible. Therefore, it may be useful to provide some guidance on this, distinguishing the form of indicators that are relevant to different pursuits of the State. These might be loosely classified into quantified measures in the case of programmes, projects and services; time-bound actions in the case of change management, policy development and EU negotiation; and customer service indicators based on satisfaction ratings.

Two other chapters examine the farm waste management scheme and the farm improvement scheme. These schemes provide a contrast from the viewpoint of allocation, with the farm waste management scheme being time bound, while the farm improvement scheme was cash limited. Both were oversubscribed and neither method of allocation was entirely satisfactory from the viewpoint of access and value for money. The fact that both schemes levered desirable investment is a positive feature, but there may be lessons to be learned in terms of the optimum design of schemes in order to structure the grant inducements in a way that optimises the return on the State's investment.

Overall, while cash limits are a feature of agricultural assistance and likely to continue so in an era of constrained resources, it may in future be possible to achieve better value by determining the level of assistance necessary to induce desired investment through surveys or other means, and by allocating the limited available assistance based on business cases objectively assessed.

At this point, there is a need to review the impact of the two schemes and to determine their actual contribution to the elimination of the farm waste storage deficit in the case of the farm waste management scheme, and the extent to which it has impacted on production conditions on farms, competitiveness and farm incomes in the case the farm improvement scheme.

I now call on Mr. Moran to make his opening statement.

Mr. Tom Moran

Thank you for giving me this opportunity to address you today.

I propose to outline some of the main events of 2008 as a reminder to the committee of the year in question, to comment on the appropriation account itself, to respond to the issues covered in the annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and to refer briefly to some current developments.

The major issues of note in the environment in which the Department operated in 2008 were the dramatic downturn in the global markets, the dioxin contamination of some pigmeat products, the successful outcomes of the EU CAP health check and the fisheries Council negotiations, as well as the 2009 budget which was introduced on 14 October.

In terms of trade, beef exports bucked the overall negative trend for meat in 2008, with export values rising by more than 7% to €1.7 billion. Other meat sectors performed less well with the result that the overall outturn for the meat market was only slightly up on 2007 figures. The dairy sector was negatively affected by the downturn in the international dairy markets which fell back from the exceptional highs which had been achieved in 2007. The effect of reduced prices increased the need for market management measures and so the continuation of the key milk market supports for butter and skimmed milk powder, agreed in the EU CAP health check, was a positive boost for the industry.

Despite the turbulent export environment and challenging currency fluctuations, agri-food exports reached almost €8.16 billion. While this was a reduction on 2007 values, it was a strong performance considering the very challenging global environment in which the industry operated. In terms of foreign earnings, this sector is estimated to account for approximately one third of the net flow of funds from primary and manufacturing industries, due to the high proportion of indigenous raw material and services used and the low net profit repatriation

At the end of November, the Department's national residue testing programme detected the presence of polychlorinated biphenyls, or PCBs, in pork fat. Once the link between PCBs and dioxin was confirmed on 6 December, the Department's food safety contingency plan was activated and all pork and bacon product was recalled. The subsequent speedy and effective control systems introduced meant that by 10 December, sales had resumed of pigmeat products from herds totally unaffected by the contaminated feed. The prompt actions taken by the Department and the FSAI were based on best practice guidelines. Furthermore, independent authoritative bodies and other countries agreed that the corrective actions taken by the Department were correct and a solid indicator of the absolute priority given by Ireland to food safety.

The interaction between the Department and EU bodies during the year achieved positive outcomes. The negotiation of the EU CAP health check concluded towards the end of the year and the final outcome delivered increased milk quotas and milk market supports. In addition, funds to be used for new challenges and new EU funds to be used at national discretion, provided for investments of €170 million from 2009 to 2013.

In the annual fisheries Council negotiations, a 5% increase in fish quotas was secured and agreement was reached on a cod recovery plan to manage fisheries in the Irish Sea. These measures, together with the successful fleet decommissioning scheme, are aimed at achieving the future sustainable development of the sea fisheries sector.

The early budget in October 2008 was a response to the current economic downturn, the difficulties in the public finances and the ongoing budgetary pressures. Some very difficult decisions were required, including the closure of the early retirement scheme, the young farmer installation scheme, reduced rates for the suckler cow scheme and reduced expenditure under the disadvantaged areas scheme.

In so far as the 2008 Appropriation Account is concerned, the Department had substantial gross Exchequer expenditure of over €2.1 billion to cover actual liabilities across a wide variety of schemes and services. When appropriations amounting to €404 million are taken into account, most of which are EU co-funding transfers, net expenditure was €1.7 billion. In addition, a further €1.355 billion in EU funding was dispensed by my Department in 2008, just over €1.3 billion of which related to the single payment scheme.

A substantial proportion of expenditure under the Department's Vote comprises schemes which are subject to external factors such as demand from beneficiaries, market and economic factors, animal disease incidence, and the pace at which capital investment and research projects are completed. Savings arise due to lower than anticipated drawdown on various demand-led schemes. Conversely, the need for additional spending under particular headings can also arise.

There was a number of exceptional budgetary related developments in 2008. Two Supplementary Estimates were approved. The first Supplementary Estimate in September provided an additional €195 million to the Vote to cover liabilities arising under the farm waste management scheme. Total expenditure on the scheme in 2008 was over €413 million and I will comment further on the scheme later. The second Supplementary Estimate added a further €50 million to the Vote in December. This was part of the €200 million emergency measure introduced by the Government to counteract the difficulties that arose in the pig sector following the discovery of dioxins in pig meat.

Savings arose in several areas in 2008. These included €5.7 million in the area of research due to a lower than expected drawdown of funds by beneficiaries. Under subhead C there were savings of €27 million on dioxins and various animal health measures. However, this was offset by a higher than expected spend on compensation paid to farmers for bovine TB reactors and brown rot in potatoes, thus giving a net €16 million saving under this subhead. We had €5 million in savings under subhead D due to lower than expected activity in intervention and other technical market operational costs.

Savings under subheads E, F and G, which cover disadvantaged areas payments, the REP scheme and the early retirement scheme, amounted to more than €31 million and arose largely as a result of the requirement for the Department to complete the necessary administrative checks under REPS before payments could be authorised, as well as a lower than expected take-up under the early retirement scheme. Savings of €9 million arose due to a lower spend on afforestation and fisheries. There was additional spending of €2 million on food aid to assist in relieving the famine in Ethiopia and €1.9 million on the beef and sheep quality assurance schemes.

Taking all of the foregoing into account, the final outturn for 2008 resulted in an overall gross saving on the Vote of €40 million. However, it should be noted that this saving included a sum of €9.1 million which was the Department's share of a corrective budgetary adjustment introduced by the Government in July 2008 to help public finances. A further €15 million in savings related to the emergency measures introduced in December 2008 to deal with dioxins in pigmeat. The Department endeavours to forecast expenditure as accurately as possible and to provide in the annual Estimates for anticipated demand under the various schemes we operate. Ultimately, however, expenditure depends on the variables I have mentioned.

The annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General covered several issues, the first being the operation of the organisational review programme, ORP, in the Department. I welcome this new initiative by the Comptroller and Auditor General to comment on wider structural and management issues within Departments. I understand the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food was the first selected for such comment. It was also among the first to be examined by the ORP, the public service modernisation initiative under the auspices of the Department of the Taoiseach, which is quoted in some detail by the Comptroller and Auditor General and referred to in his statement.

The ORP review found that the Department was particularly strong in its ability to meet future challenges and to develop a strategy for the sector. It also found that the Department has a strong focus on customer service, an innovative use of information and communications technologies and a strong and beneficial relationship with the agencies under our aegis. On the other hand, it identified challenges facing the Department and made a number of recommendations on how to improve organisational and management performance. It is vital that the Department manage its delivery of services as efficiently and effectively as possible. I will comment in some detail, therefore, on this aspect of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report.

In response to the findings of the ORP, the Department developed an action plan comprising 29 separate action points which focuses on continuing to improve in those areas in which the ORP found it to be strong and working on those areas where it identified the need for development. Good progress has been made in implementing the action plan. The Department is committed to its engagement with all external stakeholders, both traditional and new, through various committees and focus groups, including the recently established 2020 consultation process. A new human resource strategy has been prepared which outlines how the Department will address the efficient management of staff resources, improve human resources practices and develop internal leadership. In addition, the Department has strengthened its focus on outcomes and outputs and has intensified the role of its management services division in addressing efficiencies and cost effectiveness of its business areas.

Outside of the ORP process the Department has been proactive in seeking improved efficiency and effectiveness. An efficiency review group was established in October 2008 to facilitate a strategic approach to budgetary decision-making, while addressing the structural changes necessary to enable the Department to fulfil its wide-ranging remit. The deliberations of this group facilitated the completion of the ORP action plan and the Department's submission to the special group on public service numbers and expenditure programmes.

Since 2006 the Department's internal management services division has completed 11 reviews of the performance of business units within the Department. A further three are at finalisation stage, with three additional reviews commencing recently. A steering group, made up of senior management and chaired by me, monitors the implementation of these reviews and of the Department's value for money programme. We are currently progressing a comprehensive restructuring of the local office network which involves the closure of 42 offices and the retention and expansion of 16 regional offices to provide an enhanced service to the Department's customers. This restructuring process will result in an overall reduction of 400 full-time equivalent staff across all streams, with savings in the order of €30 million being realised on completion of the plan. To date, 19 offices have been closed and replaced with nine enhanced regional offices. The entire process is due for completion by the end of the year.

In the last five years the Department has reduced staff numbers by some 1,000. When account is taken of the decentralisation of staff to Portlaoise and the relocation of staff to Backweston, overall the Department will have redeployed and relocated well over 2,000 staff in the period 2005 to 2010. In this context, the incentivised scheme of early retirement and the moratorium on recruitment and promotions in the public service, as well as the findings of the report of the special group on public service numbers and expenditure programmes, are having and will continue to have a significant impact. As I said, I am conscious of the need to make the most efficient use of both financial and non-financial resources and to match those resources to our needs. This is an area to which I will continue to devote particular attention.

The second aspect of the Department's administration referred to by the Comptroller and Auditor General is the Department's management information framework. This is a key support to management decision-making and should be perceived not as a single entity, but as a comprehensive integrated system comprising organisational activities, reporting processes and daily interactions between all internal management levels across the Department. It provides essential information and input and takes account of Government policy, financial constraints, economic and social considerations and the concerns of interest groups in respect of the management decision-making process.

As a core function, the process entails formal reporting processes between operating divisions and Department management as well as the provision of ongoing performance reports to the Department of Finance. An integral component of the financial management process is the use of the modern, standards-based, fully integrated commercial accounting system. This is an on-line, real-time accounting system and allows for reporting on both a cash and accrual accounting basis through which the annual accounts are produced in accordance with Department of Finance requirements. The system is the basis for the efficient processing of all Department transactions, including the disbursement of substantial European Union funds.

Despite having invested significantly in developing the management information framework, the Department remains fully committed to improving its operational and management process. We have engaged proactively in the strategic management initiative and business planning process. We introduced a formal process to oversee the implementation of recommendations emerging from the value for money process. Nevertheless, I accept the comment in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report that whereas the Department has access to comprehensive information, it does not always carry out sufficient analysis and comparisons of costs and outcomes to aid decision-making. In this context, the Comptroller and Auditor General makes specific reference to the cost of inspections carried out by the Department. The Department is currently using the management information framework system to undertake an analysis of the cost of inspections and will examine the data closely to ensure inefficiencies are identified and addressed. If this exercise proves worthwhile, my intention would be to look in the same way at other aspects of the Department's administration.

The Comptroller and Auditor General acknowledges that the Department prepares the annual outcome statement in accordance with Department of Finance instructions. However, he has a number of recommendations as to how the process can produce more relevant, transparent and useful data. Again, the Department has been to the fore in developing and presenting annual output statements and we will certainly examine carefully the Comptroller and Auditor General's recommendations with a view to improving our statements.

I will now address the issues raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General in his comments on the farm waste management scheme and the farm improvement scheme. There has been discussion at official level in this regard and the Comptroller and Auditor General's report records the Department's detailed official response. Both of these schemes formed important measures to bring about significant improvement and modernisation of Irish farms, as well as contributing to the protection of the environment. The farm waste management scheme had the objective of reducing water pollution by nitrates from agricultural sources and preventing further such pollution. This measure had to be introduced in the light of Ireland's obligation to comply with the requirements of the nitrates directive. Had Ireland not implemented the directive to the European Commission's requirements, there was the very real prospect of heavy fines being imposed by the Court of Justice. In addition, failure to implement the nitrates directive would have had serious implications for continued EU funding of CAP schemes in Ireland and payment of the single payment in particular. This would have had very serious implications for the incomes of Irish farmers. The European Commission also made it clear at the time that continued funding of CAP rural development measures in Ireland, that is REP schemes, disadvantaged areas, early retirement and forestry, was contingent on the satisfactory implementation of the nitrates directive. Having regard to all of the factors, there was no option but for us to invest substantially in farm waste storage facilities. It should also be said that the scheme was a major driver of investment in our agriculture and food sector and succeeded in putting in place the fundamental infrastructure on which to base future growth and development, which will be key to the wider economy in the years ahead.

This is the background against which the scheme was introduced and the Comptroller and Auditor General's report has presented a detailed account of how the scheme was implemented. The issues raised regarding the farm improvement scheme focus, in the main, on the manner in which the Department managed, and in particular, closed the scheme when the limit of the financial limit had been reached. The Comptroller and Auditor General concludes, in the case of both the farm waste management and farm improvement schemes, that cash limits and additional selection mechanisms should be considered as a means for better managing commitments and ensuring optimum value for money.

I am happy to report that a radical overhaul and reform has since been introduced and that all new schemes introduced will be subject to cash limits, careful evaluation of scheme applications and the application of selection criteria to ensure better targeting. The "first-come, first served" principle to grant approvals has been dropped by the Department for all future schemes. Predetermined selection criteria, designed to identify and channel grant aid to targeted recipients will apply in selecting those applicants who will be approved for grant aid. This approach will ensure the targeting of schemes towards particular groups of farmers with a view to obtaining optimum value for money. The new agri-environment options scheme, AEOS, as well as the suite of new on-farm investment schemes that recently have been approved by the Commission, that is, the pig welfare, poultry welfare, sheep handling and fencing, water harvesting and dairy equipment schemes, will be implemented on this basis. This approach also will guarantee that in future, the financial ceilings fixed for schemes cannot be exceeded.

To conclude, the unfavourable global economic and financial conditions, coupled with reduced national and international consumer spending, continues to make for a difficult and demanding operating climate for the agriculture, food, fishery and forestry sectors. In addition to the practical issues of managing finances and implementing schemes and activities to best effect, the Department continues to plan to meet ongoing and future challenges. In February, a major initiative to draw up a long-term strategy for the agrifood, forestry and fisheries sectors was launched. A broadly based 2020 strategy committee has been established, chaired by Dr. Seán Brady, to lead the process and a web-based public consultation preceded it. The committee is to report by 1 June 2010.

The Common Agricultural Policy will undergo significant change from 2013 and an intensive series of bilateral meetings have taken place already over the last year with colleagues from the European Commission and other member states. While the formal communication from the Commission was not expected until later this year, this informal phase of negotiations, where ideas are exchanged and the main policy options are formulated, is extremely important. At a sectoral level, the Government reiterated its commitment to the Irish food and drinks industry at the recent Bord Bia food and drink summit held in Farmleigh. The Government's view that the agrifood sector will remain one of our most important industries and has a key role to play in Ireland's economic recovery was evidenced by the theme of the summit, "Building Ireland's Largest Indigenous Industry".

I am happy now to take any questions the Chairman or members of the committee may have.

I thank Mr. Moran. May we publish his statement?

Mr. Tom Moran

Yes.

I welcome before the committee Mr. Moran, Secretary General of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, and his team, as well as the representatives from the Department of Finance. I have a few simple questions. First, Mr. Moran referred to the pork dioxin problem that arose in the latter part of 2008 and continued into 2009. Has all the product that was exported abroad to markets such as China and Russia been procured? Has it all been recovered and brought back to this island? Second, how did the Department manage the secondary processors who had imported product? How was the substantial amount of product in the country that originated elsewhere dealt with? Is the Department satisfied that no cost to the State arose, through secondary processors, in respect of imports? As Mr. Moran is aware, native and foreign product had been mixed. What formula was used to identify the imported product that should have not been a cost to the State?

Mr. Tom Moran

These are highly specific questions pertaining to the handling of the dioxin issue. On a general note, we are satisfied that the overall controls in respect of the dioxin scheme were well executed. As for the cost, the Government made available an overall facility of up to €200 million. The final outturn will not be anything close to that figure, which is very much due to the meticulous manner in which it was handled and dealt with. In addition, European Union funds of approximately €20 million were made available and they also are subject to ongoing controls.

The Deputy is absolutely correct in that different segments had to be addressed in respect of the withdrawal of product. Primary processors basically were people who simply had pure pork products on hand or in the market. However, there also was product that had been moved on into secondary processing and which presented a more complex response.

As for the product that was abroad, it was either repatriated or disposed of abroad, either under our supervision or delegated supervision, and we are satisfied this was the case and have no concerns in that regard. There is another aspect of the "abroad" issue, which is implicit in Deputy O'Keeffe's question, which pertains to a reopening of the markets. As we have made clear previously, unless one takes definitive, transparent and effective action in this regard, one could end up with a withdrawal in which all one's markets were closed because one had lost their confidence. However, with the single exception of China, all markets have been reopened to Irish product. As we speak, the Minister is in China and hopefully some good news might come from that. Overall, we are satisfied in respect of the foreign aspect.

We also are satisfied with regard to mixed product. That issue was particularly complex and pertained to product which contained some Irish product or perhaps some value added product and we have been able to handle that. There was a small quantity that contained intermingled product. However, if one puts product that one deemed to be contaminated in with product that is not contaminated and if the overall product is contaminated, then there is an issue to be dealt with.

I thank Mr. Moran. While on the subject of animal disease or related issues, what progress has been made in respect of brucellosis and tuberculosis claims, which was a substantial cost factor to the Irish taxpayer? What is the current position in this regard? Have costs reduced over the past five years to respectable levels? Mr. Moran should comment on savings to the Irish taxpayer and the importance of the diseases to the Irish economy in terms of the value of disease-free status for export purposes.

Mr. Tom Moran

On the question of disease, as I stated at the outset, it is a key element of any food exporting countries such as Ireland. If one exports, as does Ireland, in the region of €8 billion worth of food, unless one has one's ducks in a row and unless all one's systems are up and running and are perfectly amenable to examination by one's markets, one is not at the races. We want to ensure that where there is a zoonotic disease, the customer and the consumer is kept safe and where there is an animal health issue, the country can continue to trade. These ideas are inherent in our handling of disease. BSE was very dramatic and cost a lot of money. This is essentially a problem that has been solved in Ireland. The numbers have been reduced from the peak of 333 cases to single figures. We have had one case this year. That reduction did not happen by accident. It happened because of measures put in place to control the use of meat and bonemeal and to control contaminated specified risk material. It was a major investment. This committee discussed various aspects of it. Some 90% of our beef is exported and the majority of that is exported into high value markets in Europe. Half of that goes into the UK, the high paying markets. Unless one pays attention to the disease, we would not be at the market. Brucellosis is a success story.

I do not want to interrupt Mr. Moran. What is the cost factor, year on year, of the animal eradication programme for brucellosis and tuberculosis?

Mr. Tom Moran

The figure was €62 million in 2008 and it will be reduced to €50 million this year.

Is Mr. Moran satisfied with the progress made in that area?

Mr. Tom Moran

Major progress has been made in that area.

Is the Department identifying many abuses?

Mr. Tom Moran

We do not identify many abuses but we strictly control it. We have a mechanism in place and a special investigation unit. We maintain a high level of control to ensure this works. In any system one will find attempts at abuse but in this case we do not. The proof of the pudding is that we have been deemed officially free of brucellosis and this has allowed us to relax a great number of controls. The numbers for TB are dramatically reduced from what they were. In the year under examination, TB levels showed a minor increase but they decreased afterwards. It is normal that there are minor fluctuations in the long-term trend of a falling disease. We are satisfied the trend is firmly downward, which allows us to trade in this way.

The farm waste management scheme was innovative and far-reaching and was welcome at the time. Mr. Moran referred to it in his opening remarks. Have all works concluded? Some 34,000 farmers were successful. If that figure correct? Phased payments were made because of the downturn in the economy, with 40% in 2009, 40% in 2010 and 20% in 2011. A commitment was made that interest would be paid on the outstanding amount to alleviate the difficulties arising for farmers under pressure from banks. Where are we in the payment of that programme?

Mr. Tom Moran

The Deputy's figures are correct. Some 35,000 farmers were approved for the farm waste management scheme. The work had to be completed by the end of 2008. The deadline was not extended, despite pressure. For budgetary reasons, we decided to stage payments over two years. The final payment will be made next year and will be supplemented by an interest subsidy or an ex gratia payment of a maximum of 3%. This was discussed, negotiated and consulted on with various players. There was a general recognition across the board that the scheme was a major investment. There was over-subscription for various reasons. It was costing the State a lot of money but there was acceptance that the phased payment was the best outcome. A handful of cases are outstanding but all amounts will be paid.

Mr. Moran presented a buoyant report, with savings and success in his Department. I welcome this. Can Mr. Moran pay the final phase of this scheme before Christmas, including the interest top-up?

Mr. Tom Moran

We brought forward the payment when we had a certain amount of buoyancy in the Vote. This is a liability so I am not in a position to say at this stage what can be done in managing the Vote as the year goes on. I note the point made by Deputy O'Keeffe.

Mr. Moran has made savings and he is doing very well. I am not begging; I am just making a good point.

Mr. Tom Moran

I take the excellent points made by the Deputy. The savings I referred to were in 2008. The management of the Vote in 2010 is a different issue and it is very tight.

It might be better this year. Regarding farm waste management, a number of farmers made planning applications and because of vexatious issues in their areas, including objections to An Bord Pleanála, the farmers have not been paid. The Department is taking a rigid approach to this. The difficulty was not of their making and the Department should examine this sympathetically. It has imposed severe hardship on a pig farmer who approached me about this. The Department does not have a great case for refusing because the complaints were vexatious. An Bord Pleanála drags out these matters. I raised the matter at the meeting of the Joint Committee on the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, chaired by Deputy Fleming, and I must revert to that committee on the matter. An Bord Pleanála has a habit of dragging out everything. It is not for me to say whether the organisation is efficient but the Department should re-examine these cases in light of the issues I raised. There is merit in my argument. The scheme was introduced to avoid pollution and has worked well. We have seen no cases in court arising from the scheme. These farmers are in dire need of these moneys and if the work is carried out now it will cost less and the Department will make some savings anyway.

The farm improvement scheme was introduced in July 2007 as an initiative to modernise farms. The scheme closed in October and 7,500 farmers applied, with 5,000 late applicants after 21 October. Is there any hope of them being included in the scheme or has the scheme closed for all time?

Mr. Tom Moran

The farm improvement scheme was cash limited and this was made clear from the outset. The press release announcing the scheme pointed to an amount and said the scheme would run as long as the money was available. It was essential to close it when we closed it. The farming press is a focused, specialist press and there was an indication in the farming press that something might happen in respect of the scheme. A rush of people applied and when the scheme closed, a number of people were outside it. It is a cash matter and, unfortunately, we do not have the money to pay people outside the scheme.

With the likelihood of buoyancy in the agricultural economy, which is the bright light of the economy, would it not be worthwhile to deal with the late applicants and include them in the scheme?

Mr. Tom Moran

We are introducing further on-farm investment schemes across a range of areas, including dairy, with greater focus on efficient production. We are also introducing new areas for sheep, pigs and poultry where there are welfare considerations. These schemes are being designed on the basis of selection criteria. If there is to be further development of this sector, which has significant export potential, there must be investment. We are doing that and using every possible amount of money under the revised rural development programme in doing so.

With regard to an bord snip nua, the McCarthy report contains recommendations and does not form a statutory matter. How much of the report has been implemented by the Department?

Mr. Tom Moran

The McCarthy report made a number of recommendations. Some were being implemented anyway. For example, the recommendations of an bord snip nua included our local office structure but, as I noted earlier, we had identified it as badly in need of rationalisation and we are going ahead with that. That will be finished by the end of the year. Another recommendation related to the suckler cow scheme. For budgetary reasons, the amount of money concerned, approximately €80 per suckler, has been reduced. There is not much discretionary spending within our Vote and the McCarthy report focused on elements such as the suckler cow scheme and REPS 4, which was closed. REPS 4 has been replaced with a new and different environmental scheme which meets a number of other concerns.

It is not as attractive.

I will allow the Deputy to contribute in a minute.

I am only helping the man.

Mr. Tom Moran

We will come to the attraction or otherwise of the scheme in a moment. REPS 4 was closed because of budgetary reasons.

Mr. Tom Moran

Disadvantaged areas have been reduced with regard to payments. Those decisions were being taken as prudent budgetary measures by the Department.

I welcome the rationalisation of offices, which is a far-reaching but welcome decision. I would like to see the process on a one-stop shop basis, with all activities dealing with farmers in a local office. It should include Teagasc, forestry, payment of grants and advice. That is the way forward for agriculture. Farmers are not as dependent on offices as they were because they have access to e-mail, mobile phones and modern conveniences which they did not have in the past. What is the story on adjustments to Teagasc and Bord Bia? Have Bord Bia and Bord Iascaigh Mhara been merged? There cannot be food without fish and fish without food.

Mr. Tom Moran

On local offices, the Deputy referred to one-stop shops and enhanced offices, which is broadly in line with what we are doing. Our plan is that the 16 enhanced offices will provide a single access point to most, if not all, the Department's interaction with farmers. It is a fair point made by Deputy O'Keeffe on farmers' access to information technology.

With the single payment applications, which closed on 17 May, 43,000 were done on-line, which is a significant increase on where we were. That is an indication of the way the sector is moving.

How many applications were there in total?

Mr. Tom Moran

There were approximately 130,000. The sector would not have been particularly IT-driven at farm level but significant strides are being made, making for much better interaction. It is more accurate, quicker and allows us to make payments that are much more sure.

On the specifics of the McCarthy report relating to Bord Bia, Bord Iascaigh Mhara, BIM, and Teagasc, the Department has already merged the fish promotion aspects of BIM with Bord Bia. The people have been transferred and the synergies exist. It makes much more sense for one entity to promote food.

There was another suggestion in the McCarthy report which I do not agree with completely. There will be rationalisation whether food is inside or outside the farm gate. Enterprise Ireland would be responsible for the food area according to the recommendation but I do not agree with that. What is the Department's view?

Mr. Tom Moran

That is straying into policy areas.

We will not put it on the record. I have a few more questions.

Does the Deputy wish to continue?

I will finish up. The single payment has approximately €1.3 billion coming to Ireland from abroad and it is very important for Irish agriculture and rural Ireland because it creates buoyancy in the rural economy. Many inspections are taking place. What is Ireland's status with regard to penalty payments and what is our record compared with other countries in the single farm payment? What is the total paid in penalties back to Europe?

Mr. Tom Moran

As an overall response, our record in regard to the single payment leaves us high up in the premier league. We are near the top. We pay at the earliest possible date, which is considerably ahead of many other countries. That took much investment and is not just a credit to our Department. I would not suggest that. Our payment has been a significant success.

The clawing back of money by the EU in the single payment is an issue throughout the EU. Our record is very good. People often do not understand why we must do the kind of inspections we have or their level and detail. It is a necessary part of handling that kind of money on behalf of the EU. We cannot cut any corners on the matter. We fully understand the concerns of an individual farmer but against that we must answer to very strict controls. Some of the repayments sought by the Commission from other countries are staggering, and taking any percentage of a €1.3 billion package, we would be into serious money. Our record is very good both in terms of getting the payment out and avoiding penalties.

I know I am beyond my time but will the witness give a comparison with another European country receiving a single payment versus the amount we have paid back? What amount has been reclaimed from Ireland in comparison with another country? I know France has 60 million people and is many times our size.

Mr. Tom Moran

Off the top of my head, I can say that the Danes have been hit for €100 million as a penalty, and that pattern is replicated across countries. Denmark is noted for its controls.

Mr. Tom Moran

The UK had to pay back a significant amount because it could not get the payments out. It missed all the deadlines.

What is the Irish bill?

Mr. Tom Moran

I do not have it off the top of my head. There has been no clawback from the Commission but with regard to our own penalties, the figure is approximately 0.06% for non-application.

I welcome that news which proves the rate of efficiency in the Department compared with other countries in the European Union.

Mr. Tom Moran

It is not something we are complacent about.

Neither are the farmers in Cork.

The witness may as well take the praise when it is going.

There will be quid pro quo.

I do not want to cover any of the ground Deputy O'Keeffe has so adequately dealt with regarding farm improvement, waste management, etc. What percentage of REPS is EU funded?

Mr. Tom Moran

It is 55%.

Is it not counterproductive to have discontinued REPS 4 when 55% of funding was coming from the EU? Its termination has caused disadvantage to farmers compared with the new environmental scheme.

Mr. Tom Moran

No. The way it works is that we are drawing down the total amount of money available under the EU rural development programme.

Where is it being drawn down from for the REP scheme?

Mr. Tom Moran

We are drawing it down on all the other agriculture schemes.

So the other agriculture schemes are gaining at the expense of REPS 4.

Mr. Tom Moran

No, I would not put it like that.

I would put it like that.

Mr. Tom Moran

I know, but I am saying I would not.

If we are losing 55% EU funding on the REP scheme, there must be some logic in what I am saying.

Mr. Tom Moran

We are not leaving a single euro unclaimed in Brussels under the rural development programme. Not one.

The REPS people are, however. The REP scheme was a good environmental scheme which was very suited to the west, especially the area I represent in Connemara. There are farmers there who were excellent REPS participants but will now lose out considerably because of the abolition of REPS 4, despite the fact that we receive 55% of the money from the EU.

Mr. Tom Moran

No.

It is a fact that cannot be changed now, but it is a severe disadvantage to farmers in the area I represent.

Mr. Tom Moran

I take the Deputy's point. The problem with REPS 4 was that it was vastly oversubscribed and the payments could not be afforded. In addition, and this is important, given the context of what we have been discussing, the Commission had serious difficulties with a the concept of a whole-farm approach to the environment. What was being advocated was a scheme that was considerably more measurable and targeted. A farmer would sign up to a REP scheme and deliver three, four or five actual measures——

It would no longer be a REP scheme but an environmental scheme or something else with a considerably smaller return to the farmer than he would have received under REPS 4.

Mr. Tom Moran

The average payment under REPS was about €6,100. Under the new agri-environment options scheme, which is optional, the maximum payment is €5,000. However, we are confident that a large number of farmers can achieve the maximum. We have gone into detail in ensuring the scheme is designed to allow farmers to achieve this. The closing date for the scheme was 17 May, and we have not yet received the final figures, but the indications are that there will be around 8,000 applicants, if not more.

Mr. Moran's answer acknowledges that the average REPS person is losing out on €1,000 because the maximum amount available under the new scheme is €5,000 compared with €6,000 under REPS. Many farmers who were in the REP scheme will lose between €3,000 and €5,000 because they were receiving much more than the average amount.

Mr. Tom Moran

The new scheme is a much simpler one. No plan is required, for example. Farmers were required to submit professional plans under the REP scheme, which is no longer the case.

To qualify for the maximum amount under the new scheme, the farmer must carry out works on his land that are completely different from those required under REPS. Not everyone will qualify for the maximum amount. There will be an average of €3,000 or €4,000, which will be a considerable loss to the farmers who were involved in REPS 4. I will stop talking about this now as I did not intend to ask that question but only to ask for clarification.

I have a few questions on the running of the Department as opposed to the schemes which have been adequately covered. Previously, the Accounting Officer gave an undertaking that the Department would review the improved programme indicators. What has happened in this regard? I refer to paragraph 24 of the report. Have there been any results?

Mr. Tom Moran

The indicators used by the Department vary from one area to another. For example, I mentioned that we are measuring inspections to ensure one compares with another. We provide indicators that are measurable for each of the schemes we operate. That is one of the best ways to do it. A business plan is set out each year which provides for indicators under the strategic management initiative. Each head of unit must provide a business plan which fits the goals of the Department.

Did this result in any change in management structures within the Department?

Mr. Tom Moran

It resulted in changes not only in structures but also in outcomes. This can be seen if we consider the amount of money that has been saved in recent times in the Department even though the work is ongoing. A considerable amount has been saved in the running of the place. We are doing more with less. Travel and overtime have fallen dramatically. This is on the basis of using the information in the management information framework to target changes precisely. We use IT to a greatly increased extent, for example, in managing our inspections to ensure inspectors conduct inspections within a certain area. It is much more cohesive. In answer to the Deputy's question, overall, they are having an effect.

I want to ask about the rationalisation of local offices, which was welcomed by Deputy O'Keeffe. There are some negatives attached, however, and again I must defend Connemara people. The office is being moved from Galway to Athenry, which will put a more severe burden on those further west. It seems that for all schemes, including the REP scheme, farmers in marginal areas such as the west and outlying areas such as Connemara are being discriminated against. How far advanced are the plans to move the office from Galway to Athenry under the office rationalisation plan?

Deputy Jim O'Keeffe took the Chair.

Mr. Tom Moran

The Galway move, as part of the overall plan, is still under review.

That is good enough. Perhaps we will make more representations.

Mr. Tom Moran

We are still considering that.

How many are employed in the Department?

Mr. Tom Moran

It is about 3,700, but I will obtain the exact figure. It has gone out of my head. The number has decreased quite considerably — by 1,000 — in the past five years.

Is that because of the embargo on recruitment?

Mr. Tom Moran

No, it is a combination of things, although the embargo has contributed in recent times. The Department's numbers have fallen from 4,800 in 2004 to 3,777 in March of this year.

Is there a decentralisation programme?

Mr. Tom Moran

Yes. We are already a heavily decentralised Department, with 70% to 80% of our staff working outside the capital. However, under the decentralisation programme we are relocating our head office to Portlaoise. We are planning on having——

Is it moving to rented offices or Department-owned offices in Portlaoise?

Mr. Tom Moran

It is moving to State-owned Department offices to be built down the road by the OPW.

We ask this question of every witness. Does the Department have a budget for foreign travel?

Mr. Tom Moran

We do.

What is the amount?

Mr. Tom Moran

I will obtain the precise figure. Most of our foreign travel is to Brussels and it is fairly predictable.

When the Department purchases equipment or hires services, is there always a tender process? What is the total capital expenditure on this?

Deputy Bernard Allen resumed the Chair.

Mr. Tom Moran

To return to the question about foreign travel, in 2008 the estimate for EU travel was €1.1 million and the actual spend was €970,000. The bulk of that was EU related travel.

What about the purchase of equipment and services? Does the Department always tender for this?

Mr. Tom Moran

Yes, we have a procurement unit within the Department and all purchases of equipment, services, capital and so on are carried out in full compliance with State purchasing procedures. I am satisfied about that.

Deputy Ned O'Keeffe asked about liabilities due to the pork recall last year. Are there still liabilities outstanding from the pork recall compensation scheme? What was the total cost of that?

Mr. Tom Moran

The overall cost when the scheme is finished — it is close to being finished now — will be substantially less than the amount that was available. At this stage I estimate the total cost will be between €140 million and €150 million.

Are there liabilities still outstanding?

Mr. Tom Moran

A small number remain outstanding. Of the figure of €140 million to €150 million, there will be an EU contribution of up to €20 million.

I refer to a number of relevant local issues. Given the importance of the Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority, will the Secretary General indicate if the resources allocated are being fully utilised?

Mr. Tom Moran

The Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority is a stand-alone State agency. It is grant-aided from our body——

Mr. Tom Moran

It is very much a stand-alone body and there is no reason to believe its resources are not being fully utilised. I believe it is having very good effect.

Does the Secretary General have figures for the numbers of breaches of regulations by foreign vessels and the numbers of detections and prosecutions compared to the numbers of breaches by and detections and prosecutions of Irish vessels?

Mr. Tom Moran

No, I do not have a breakdown of the figures.

Will the Secretary General get it for me?

Mr. Tom Moran

It is a matter for the Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority, but we can refer that question to it.

I am keen to know how the figures in Irish waters compare with those in other EU member states. We appear to have a far more stringent policy in respect of fines and criminal prosecutions compared with other EU member states. Why is Ireland is so far ahead of other EU countries when it comes to penalties and other matters?

Mr. Tom Moran

I am unsure whether that is the case. I have no basis for suggesting we are that far ahead.

It is the case and I can supply the Secretary General with the figures.

Mr. Tom Moran

Overall, we have an interest in ensuring the Common Fisheries Policy is properly applied. If we do not press for this, we will be major losers also. Therefore, we police the policy, although I take the point the Deputy is making. In so far as dealings with the authorities in Brussels are concerned, we ensure the same penalties are applied by all member states, particularly those whose fishermen fish in the areas——

The penalties are not the same in all EU member states. I cannot understand why others get away with this with the Commission. It seems we do not, or that we lean over backwards to ensure we are top boys in the European Union or that we toe the line more than any other EU country. There is a severe disadvantage to the Irish fishing fleet because of the fines imposed and criminal prosecutions taken. This is very serious and the same does not apply in other EU countries. Is there a reason for this?

Mr. Tom Moran

There is a basis for the way in which fines are imposed in Ireland.

They are a good deal greater than in any other EU country. They are way in excess of those imposed for similar offences in other EU countries.

Mr. Tom Moran

We are satisfied that we apply the law correctly in this regard.

Then perhaps the law is wrong.

Mr. Tom Moran

I will not comment on that; I am referring to the application of administrative and criminal sanctions. There is a strong legal issue in respect of the relativities between the gains from illegal activity and the measures or sanctions applied. That is something which is being dealt with and on which the Attorney General has advised very seriously. In fact, the matter was discussed not that long ago in the House.

That is correct. We did not make progress on the matter, which is why I am familiar with it. I was involved in that discussion in the House and it is an issue to which we may need to revert. I realise the law is the law, but it is strange that Ireland is penalised in such a way.

I thank the Deputy. Before I invite Deputy Fleming to speak, I wish to put some questions to Mr. Moran. What is the relationship between the Department and the Irish National Stud?

Mr. Tom Moran

The Irish National Stud is a commercial semi-State operation which does not receive grant-in-aid. It operates under its own legislation and is managed by a board and a chairman. The reporting arrangements are those as set out. Like all semi-State bodies, it is required to apply the code of practice for semi-State bodies as set out by the Government.

Is the Department represented on the board?

Mr. Tom Moran

Yes, the Minister appoints the board and the chairman.

What about the Department?

Mr. Tom Moran

The Department is not represented, although prior to this it did have a member on the board. That person is still a member of the board but has since retired from the Department.

Prior to when?

Mr. Tom Moran

Prior to now.

Up until what time was there a representative from the Department on the board?

Mr. Tom Moran

Until the person in question retired from the Department. The person in question reached retirement age or chose to leave the Department. At the time the person in question was a member of the board of the Irish National Stud as a staff member of the Department and the Minister chose to leave that person on the board.

What is the mechanism for reporting to the Department by that representative?

Mr. Tom Moran

I refer to the mechanism for reporting to the Department by the board. The normal reporting relationship is between the chairman and the Minister and through the board to the Department. I refer to the role of members of the board. Their line of control or reporting is through the chairman of the board. They do not report to the Department.

When did the member from the Department retire?

Mr. Tom Moran

In March 2009.

Is he still operating as an independent member?

Mr. Tom Moran

He is still a ministerial appointee to the board.

Has the Department ever funded the Irish National Stud and, if so, to what amounts?

Mr. Tom Moran

No, it is not in receipt of State grants. In years gone by — I cannot remember the date but believe it was in 2001 — there was an equity investment by the Minister for Finance in the stud, but it operates on a commercial basis.

Is it guaranteed against risks or losses by the State or the Department?

Mr. Tom Moran

There is a loan guarantee facility in place, but that is all. It operates on a commercial basis.

Why would the Minister or the Department believe they have a responsibility to carry out investigations into activities within the stud? The Minister stated in January that certain investigations would be carried out.

Mr. Tom Moran

I am unsure of the terms. I take it that the Chairman is correct about an investigation being carried out, but I am unsure——

The Secretary General maintains the stud is totally independent from the Department. Using what powers can the Department order an investigation into activities at the stud?

Mr. Tom Moran

As I understand it, in a commercial semi-State body, in the event of an issue arising which could have repercussions for the organisation in terms of its reputation, the Minister is entitled to seek a report from the chairman. He did this in the case of the Irish National Stud.

I missed what the Secretary General stated at the start. In a situation where——

Mr. Tom Moran

Where the Minister perceives that there are issues arising that could have a damaging effect on the entity in terms of its reputation, although it is a stand-alone commercial entity, he can ask the chairman to provide a report on how matters stand. That has been done. The Minister asked for a report on the stud on certain events and was given one by the chairman.

As Secretary General and Accounting Officer and based on what he has just stated, does Mr. Moran believe there is a need for the Department to carry out an investigation into a litany of reports in the newspapers in recent times on foreign travel, expenses incurred by individuals, the procurement practices being followed or otherwise and a link between individuals who are board members and companies which offer services to the stud?

Mr. Tom Moran

I point to the fact that the stud is a stand-alone, independent, commercial semi-State body. It is not in receipt of funds from the Department. The board is responsible for operational issues within its remit, including the daily management of the stud and the issues to which the Chairman referred. The Minister, the Department and I, as Accounting Officer, have no authority to intervene in these areas. The accounts of the stud are audited independently by a private auditing firm; up to a certain date they were audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General. The stud is an independent commercial body which is outside the remit of the Department.

Does it have to give assurances to the Department about procurement and other practices? Have such reports been sought? Has the Department received any reports on the matters to which I referred?

Mr. Tom Moran

Yes, the stud has to report on its adherence to the code of governance for semi-State bodies. On the report I mentioned which was sought by the Minister, part of the response involved the giving of a full assurance by the chairman that the code of governance was being adhered to.

That was in one very narrow instance. Has the Department sought assurances that the code of governance is being adhered to regarding the other issues which have come to public's attention?

Mr. Tom Moran

The code of practice covers a multitude. Like every other semi-State body, the stud is periodically required to give assurances to the sponsoring or main Department that the code is being adhered to across the board, not just in dealing with a specific issue. When the other issues arose, the Minister wrote to the chairman and received specific assurances that the code was being adhered to.

Since Mr. Mahon now concedes that the Department has responsibility regarding the code of governance and the performance of the Irish National Stud, how has he treated the report on foreign travel? It is almost like FÁS on overdrive. In what way do the expenses incurred on foreign travel and the procurement activities to which I referred comply with the code of governance?

Mr. Tom Moran

I have not conceded that point, although I may have been unclear. I did not concede that I had responsibility for these issues. I said they were operational matters within the remit of an independent, commercial semi-State body. They are not within the remit of the Department. Therefore, it would not be appropriate for me to comment on the rights and wrongs of the travel budget or whatever else is done. That is part of the responsibility of the board for day-to-day management of the stud.

What about procurement practices?

Mr. Tom Moran

Procurement is a matter for the stud.

Does the Department of Finance have any views or opinions on what has been happening?

Mr. David Moloney

Commercial semi-State bodies are set up under statute and are independent. They are treated as stand-alone companies with, as the Secretary General said, their own governance and board structures. In May 2009 we produced a revised code of governance for semi-State bodies which attempted to draw attention to requirements regarding travel and other issues. We expect these standards to be adhered to. It is set out in statute that operational matters are the responsibility of the board. That is the way commercial semi-State bodies have been set up.

It puzzles me the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has responsibility for many things. The delegation stated it was obvious to anybody looking at the reports that the code of governance was not being adhered to. Is the delegation telling me that the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Department of Finance cannot do anything? Who appoints the chairman?

Mr. Tom Moran

The Minister, with the approval of the Minister for Finance.

Have the Department of Finance and the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food ever had discussions with the chairman about the reports?

Mr. Tom Moran

When there were initial media reports, the Minister sought assurances from the chairman that the relevant code of practice on governance was being adhered to. Assurances are periodically given by the chairman on behalf of the board to the Minister.

Is it done periodically or annually?

Mr. Tom Moran

I understand it is done annually. On the specific case, the Minister said——

I am not talking about a particular case, rather I am talking about a range of issues. When was the last report received?

Mr. Tom Moran

The chairman was in touch with the Minister recently.

What about the annual report?

Mr. Tom Moran

I do not know precisely when it was completed. As part of the reporting procedure regarding the submission of the annual report and accounts which are laid before the Oireachtas, assurances are given that there is full adherence to the code of governance. The stud receives no money from the Department. It is an independent board.

When was the last annual report received?

Mr. Tom Moran

I do not know off-hand; I cannot remember. I will check for the Chairman.

It is amazing that we do not know when the last annual report was received.

Mr. Tom Moran

It is amazing that I do not know.

Yes. Will Mr. Moran check for me now?

Mr. Tom Moran

Yes.

On the issue——

I will finish my point and Deputy Fleming is next. When the last annual report was received, were any questions asked? It has been said assurances were given that the code of governance was being adhered to. Were any questions asked by anybody on the articles and issues raised in the public arena?

Mr. Tom Moran

In September 2009 the Minister wrote to the chairman seeking assurances on issues which had been raised in the public domain. The chairman responded with a report dated September 2009 in which he outlined that he was satisfied that the expenses were in order and that the board had approved the various travel arrangements. I again emphasise that these are matters for the National Stud which is an independent body, answerable to its board and chairman.

No, they are matters for the Department and the Government.

Mr. Tom Moran

I am not sure that they are. The authority of the Department to intervene in the day-to-day running of a commercial semi-State body——

The Department had a representative on the board, but the man in question retired or left. Nobody is reporting back to the Department. Is a blind eye being turned?

Mr. Tom Moran

No. The chairman and the board are responsible for the running of what is a commercial semi-State body. The chairman decides on the reporting arrangements, as set out in the arrangements governing the way in which semi-State bodies deal with the Government.

I do not like using the word "Minister"; I would prefer to use the word "Department" at this committee. The Department and the Minister are the shareholders.

Mr. Tom Moran

The Government is the main shareholder.

Then why have questions not been asked?

Mr. Tom Moran

They have been asked. I have outlined the extent to which the Minister sought——

Will the delegation make available documentation on the questions asked by the Department of Finance and the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food?

Mr. Tom Moran

The Minister sought a report on operations and the report indicated the points——

Can we receive all the documents on the reports submitted and the questions asked? We have a role to play because the matter is directly related to the Department.

Mr. Tom Moran

I am not Accounting Officer for the Irish National Stud.

Mr. Moran is Accounting Officer for the Department.

Mr. Tom Moran

Yes, but not for the Irish National Stud.

The Department is a shareholder in the Irish National Stud.

Mr. Tom Moran

I have no responsibility for the way in which money is spent in the Irish National Stud.

What about the code of governance?

Mr. Tom Moran

The board of the semi-State body has responsibility for implementing and operating within the code of governance and giving commitments and assurances to that extent. I have no responsibility for sanctioning anyone's travel arrangements or expenditure incurred within the Irish National Stud.

Including procurement.

Mr. Tom Moran

Absolutely, that is an operational matter for the board, for which the Department and I cannot answer.

We will take our own advice on the matter. I am amazed no one is asking the hard questions.

Mr. Tom Moran

The relationship between the Department and the Irish National Stud is set out clearly. Where there is no responsibility for something, we have no authority to intervene. The Minister sought and received a report from the chairman on the way in which the stud and the board were running the operation.

There are allegations that this is a cash cow for certain individuals, but no one is asking any questions.

Mr. Tom Moran

On the code of governance, the role of the board is to meet regularly, retain full and effective control of the State body and monitor management and the performance of the executive. That is why the board is in place.

I am interested in the responsibility of the Department. Is it not the case that the land of the Irish National Stud is owned by the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and leased to the stud, that the shares in the stud are owned by the Minister for Finance and that the stud is obliged to furnish a full balance sheet, a report on its proceedings and a profit and loss account at the end of each financial year? That is what is provided for in section 25 of the National Stud Act 1945. At what level are the annual accounts examined? Is there much scrutiny? The Act provides for the situation that has arisen in that the Minister is entitled to look for such explanations as he thinks fit on the accounts, including the profit and loss account. What explanations have been sought for these enormously extravagant expenses and the unusual procedures followed during the years?

Mr. Tom Moran

The annual accounts of the Irish National Stud are independently audited and then submitted to the Houses of the Oireachtas as required under the Act. The monitoring of semi-State bodies occurs within the context outlined. The Irish National Stud is managed by a board of directors and a chairman in line with the code of practice for the governance of semi-State bodies. Contact between the board and the Department takes place on broad policy and where the Minister on occasion seeks information but not on operational aspects. I have mentioned that the Minister wrote to the chairman on 18 September seeking the board's views on matters that were in the public domain at the time.

I am talking about the accounts.

Mr. Tom Moran

They are independently audited and submitted to the Department and laid before the Houses.

I am aware of that; the independent accountant could add up the hundreds of thousands spent on foreign travel and include the figure in the accounts. Who at departmental level questions this expenditure?

Mr. Tom Moran

The board is responsible for running the company.

The Department is responsible for receiving the accounts and examining them and asking for such explanations as are considered appropriate under section 25 of the principal Act.

Mr. Tom Moran

I have made the point that the board is responsible for the day-to-day management of the Irish National Stud. It is reasonable to suggest the management of travel and similar expenditure is an operational matter for the board, not for the Department.

Would no one ask questions, if they bothered to look, about the expenditure of hundreds of thousands of euro on foreign travel by staff of the Irish National Stud or its directors?

Mr. Tom Moran

It is a matter for the board to run the semi-State body.

It is a matter for the Minister to supervise the running of it.

Mr. Tom Moran

In September 2009 the Minister sought the comments of the chairman following the appearance of an article at the time. The chairman gave assurances. The board approves travel and other such arrangements, the operational aspects within a semi-State body and delegates to management. It is not a matter for the Department which cannot get involved in it.

Therefore, is the Department washing its hands of the matter?

Mr. Tom Moran

I did not say that; I said it was a matter of the delineation of responsibility.

The Irish National Stud company account showed a loss of €2.3 million for the year in question, up to December 2008. Were there any questions about this?

Mr. Tom Moran

The Minister has asked for a response from the Irish National Stud on its plans to regain financial profitability. The figures for recent years reflect the fact that there have been profits; there was a profit of €9.9 million in 2007. Also, the stud is not in receipt of State funds.

Not at the moment.

That is no excuse for the Department washing its hands of the matter. If it is a shareholder, it is entitled to a dividend if the Irish National Stud is making a profit. Why were questions not asked when no dividends were forthcoming, or were there dividends?

Mr. Tom Moran

The State was not getting dividends because the Irish National Stud was being operated on the basis that it was an independent semi-State body with a board responsible for its day-to-day operations.

Is Mr. Moran telling me that no one thought fit to look for any explanation when the accounts were furnished for 2008 showing a loss of €2.3 million? Was any inquiry made by anyone within the Department? Was there any query about the expenditure that must have been obvious from the figures in the profit and loss account? Did they just arrive in the post and were they just placed in a pigeon hole?

Mr. Tom Moran

Not at all. The Minister requested a plan from the Irish National Stud showing how it would address its financial difficulties.

When did that happen?

Mr. Tom Moran

In February.

That did not amount to the Minister exercising his powers pursuant to section 25 of the legislation. If he was to have done so, he would have had to have done it when he got the accounts for 2008.

Mr. Tom Moran

With respect, we are talking about different issues here.

Various issues are involved.

The powers the Minister has under section 25 covering the examination of these accounts and the raising of questions thereon do not appear to have been exercised.

Mr. Tom Moran

I do not accept that. The accounts of the Irish National Stud were submitted in line with the legislation.

Who examines them?

Mr. Tom Moran

They are examined within the Department. An assistant secretary is responsible for various semi-State bodies among which this one is included.

What is the extent of the examination? Is there a detailed examination by somebody with accountancy expertise or does it consist merely of a look over accounts until they are submitted again next year——

Mr. Tom Moran

No, I do not think so.

——or until a row blows up in the media?

Mr. Tom Moran

No, I do not think so. The row to which the Deputy is referring contextually is related to the operational aspects of the Irish National Stud. The overall issues in regard to the profit or otherwise of the Irish National Stud relate to the current business environment within which the horse breeding industry operates and that industry is suffering from a similar downturn to that being experienced in other sectors. The income from stud fees has decreased, as some of its clients are experiencing difficulties. I understand that the issues in regard to their losses are being redressed but that is not an operational matter, it comes under the business context.

It appears that almost €0.75 million worth of contracts were issued without any competitive tendering. Would Mr. Moran dismiss that fact as being an operational issue that should be simply left to the board of the Irish National Stud?

Mr. Tom Moran

No, I want to be clear. I am not dismissing it. I am saying it is an operational matter for the board of the Irish National Stud. I am not taking a view on it.

Mr. Moran is not; he must be the only person in the country who is not taking a view on it.

Mr. Tom Moran

I am not taking a view on operational matters relating to travel and so on that are within the remit of the board of the Irish National Stud.

Is it not a fact that the guidelines are clear——-

On a point of order——

The Deputy may intervene on a point of order.

This committee has the right to summons representatives of the Irish National Stud to appear before it.

No, it does not.

This issue is like the one concerning FÁS.

I suggest we address this problem by seeking a change in the legislation to enable us to so do.

This issue here is similar to that which arose in FÁS.

We have a problem in that everybody seems to be washing their hands of this. Mr. Moran gave the impression earlier that nobody had responsibility for this — that he had no responsibility for it. He is now telling us, on foot of questions that were put, that a report covering certain issues was submitted in March of this year. I find it incredible that during all this time a retired civil servant who was on the board was left on it and there was no direct representation by the Department on the board. That is outrageous.

Mr. Tom Moran

Can I answer that?

Before Mr. Moran replies, can the Chairman clarify if the Comptroller and Auditor General is the auditing body for the Irish National Stud?

It has an external auditor.

It is the Department with which we are dealing.

Does Mr. Moran agree that the problem here is that the Comptroller and Auditor General has no entitlement to be involved? I have one final question.

Before the Deputy puts that question, I would like Mr. Moran's answer to my earlier question on the failure of the Department to appoint a representative to the board. He said he would like to address that point.

Mr. Tom Moran

I thank the Chairman for coming back to me on that. Under the Act, the Minister appoints the board members. In the past a member of the Department staff has been appointed by the Minister. The person appointed does not necessarily need to be a departmental representative. There is nothing to provide that the person concerned having retired should have been replaced by a member of staff of the Department. This person has been retained on the board. He was a member of staff of the Department and has subsequently retired, but he is a representative on the board because of his expertise.

Therefore, nobody is reporting back from the board to the Department?

Mr. Tom Moran

The chairman is the main reporting conduit back to the Department and the operational matters are a matter for the board.

This issue also arose with FÁS in terms of the link between the board of management and the Department. We, as a committee, sought certain changes in the legislation or regulations to ensure that board members would report back directly to the Accounting Officer and the Department. That change recommended in our report was incorporated in legislation.

Mr. Tom Moran

I understand that point.

Why was the legislation not acted upon to allow a direct reporting line between the board of management of the Irish National Stud and the Department? That legislation has been introduced since we completed our report on FÁS.

Mr. Tom Moran

There are two points I would make. First, the comparison with FÁS does not stand up. This is a commercial semi-State body and it is not funded by grant-in-aid

We know that, but it compares very much with FÁS in other areas.

Mr. Tom Moran

Perhaps but that is a different issue. On this particular issue of governance, this is a commercial semi-State that is governed by a board and the line of responsibility is the board and the chairman. The issue of having a person on the board of a commercial semi-State and reporting outside the board back to either an Accounting Officer or a Department is a complex issue. For example, a company incorporated under the Companies Act would have a board and a board member would report sideways outside the board. It is a complex issue. This is a commercial semi-State, substantially different in nature, context and legality from FÁS — it is a different issue altogether. The comparison the Chairman is making regarding operational matters is a matter for the board. I must emphasise that. It does not come back to the Department, the Accounting Officer or to management within the Department to sanction or not to sanction procurement, travel or whatever else.

It may not in the case of individual issues but surely the principles of proper governance and proper procedures must be a responsibility of the Department? If the Irish National Stud got into financial difficulties on a permanent basis, would it not come back to the Accounting Officer and the taypayer to seek equity?

Mr. Tom Moran

The point about corporate governance is crucial. The Irish National Stud is required to give assurances to the Government that it is adhering to the code of practice in all that it entails.

It is obliged to give assurances. Has it given assurances? If so, has Mr. Moran accepted them on face value or has he carried out any checks on those assurances in view of all the reports covered in the media that are in the public domain?

Mr. Tom Moran

It gave assurances directly in response to requests by the Minister in September. It gave assurances that it adhered to the code of governance, that the various operational aspects which were at that time in the public domain——

Is Mr. Moran happy with those assurances?

Mr. Tom Moran

That is a matter for the board.

No. Is Mr. Moran happy with the assurances he got?

Mr. Tom Moran

I am happy that the board has approved——

No. The question is if Mr. Moran is happy with the assurances he got from the Irish National Stud regarding governance and other issues?

Mr. Tom Moran

I am happy that the board has given assurances that it has adhered to the code of governance.

No, that does not answer my question.

Mr. Tom Moran

I have not taken a view on the individual nuts and bolts issues of travel and so on.

Why has Mr. Moran not done so? When he got the assurances regarding governance, did he accept those or did he raise any questions regarding them?

Mr. Tom Moran

There was further discussion with the chairman of the board seeking assurances regarding the code of governance and so on. We would not be unaware of the controversy——-

When and between whom did those discussions take place?

Mr. Tom Moran

There was further discussion during a further meeting in February 2010 and assurances were given by the board that it was adhering in that respect. It gave explanations that it believes are correct for the various areas.

Are you happy now?

Mr. Tom Moran

I am happy that the board approved——

No, are you happy with the assurance that you were given?

Mr. Tom Moran

It is not a matter for me to judge that.

Who is responsible?

Mr. Tom Moran

The Department has to accept that the chairman and the board manage their operations in good faith and in line with the code of governance.

That is not the question. Mr. Moran said that it is for somebody else to judge the assurances. Who is the other person? Mr. Moran is the Accounting Officer.

Mr. Tom Moran

I am not the accounting officer for the National Stud.

You are the Accounting Officer for the Department. You received assurances and sought further assurances. I asked whether you are happy with the further assurances you received.

Mr. Tom Moran

Assurances were given in good faith on the broad code of governance. I am Accounting Officer for the Department not for the stud. I cannot take a view.

As Accounting Officer for the Department, you received further assurances. I asked a simple question. Are you happy now with these assurances?

Mr. Tom Moran

When the board gives an assurance in good faith that it complied with the code of governance, I have to accept that. I will not get into the nuts and bolts of individual approvals for this, that and the other within the board because that is not a matter for me to decide.

It is not nuts and bolts; it is a question of proper governance. Mr. Moran asked questions and got assurances and further assurances. I am asking him, as Accounting Officer for the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, whether he is happy now that everything is fine in the Irish National Stud.

Mr. Tom Moran

As Accounting Officer, I am not responsible for——

That is not the question.

Mr. Tom Moran

It is my answer. I am not responsible for the day-to-day management of the stud. The Department is not and cannot be responsible for that. With respect, it is not reasonable to ask me if I will stand over the operational aspects of the stud because I do not have responsibility for them.

It is clear that Mr. Moran was not happy with the initial assurances received since he sought further assurances. In light of the further assurances, is he now happy about the situation?

Mr. Tom Moran

We are waiting for the stud to revert to us with details of how it intends to address the financial challenges that affect it from a broader point of view. We have been given an assurance in respect of the code of governance, as we have been given every year with the annual report. In light of the controversy, we have asked the chairman to ensure that the code of governance is applied and that has been agreed to.

Quite honesty, I am appalled at what I am hearing.

In regard to the assurances from the board, does Mr. Moran accept there is a gaping hole in the procedures? This is highlighted by the article in the Irish Examiner of today which states:

Business deals at the Irish National Stud (INS) worth €718,000 were not put to competitive tender and were awarded to firms run by some of its key personnel.

Figures reveal during an eight-year period two directors and its company secretary were linked to a series of independent deals with the state-owned commercial firm.

Mr. Moran is telling us that the answer is to rely on the board but the allegation is that members of the board were involved in these arrangements. How can we accept that is a fair answer to a very serious issue?

Mr. Tom Moran

I read the article to which the Deputy referred. The question of procurement is an operational matter for the board.

I am not making a judgment but it is fairly obvious from the article that procurement procedures as laid down by the Department of Finance were not followed and appear to have been openly breached. Who is responsible for following up on that? Who will question this behaviour?

Mr. Tom Moran

The National Stud is a stand-alone independent audited entity governed by a chairman and a board appointed by the Minister.

Is Mr. Moran suggesting that the commercial auditors are supposed to ask the questions?

Anglo Irish Bank was audited every year and look at the mess it is in. That is no answer.

Mr. Tom Moran

I understand members' concerns but I am trying to explain that the National Stud is an independent semi-State body governed by a board. I do not see where one is going if one expects the Department to second guess the operational aspects of a semi-State body.

If evidence is produced that procurement procedures laid down by the Government were not followed, who is responsible for responding?

Mr. Tom Moran

Ultimately it is the board.

Is that the case even if members of the board were involved in the breaches of procedure?

Mr. Tom Moran

I am not saying there is a breach because I do not know the details of the matter. However, the board is the responsible body for managing this semi-State body. It is ultimately the board's responsibility and it was given that responsibility by the relevant Minister.

Having done that, does Mr. Moran think it proper to wash his hands of the matter?

Mr. Tom Moran

I am not saying I should wash my hands. To follow the Deputy's logic, are all semi-State organisations to be run from Departments? Alternatively, does one appoint boards to run these bodies at arm's length and to manage them on a commercial basis?

Perhaps there is a need for a via media which would allow a level of supervision and monitoring of early warning signals. A change in the law may be required for this but the present situation appears entirely unsatisfactory.

It is a semi-State body, which means it has to be linked to a Department. The link is broken because there is no departmental representative. Regardless of what this committee decides, Mr. Moran's Department must carry out an immediate investigation into what has happened because public confidence in that body was shattered by what has appeared in the media. None of us would have known about these matters unless those people carried out their job. I am told they were hampered in their work because freedom of information requests were not complied with in a proper manner. There is a grave responsibility on Mr. Moran, as Accounting Officer, to carry out an investigation and to report to this committee on what he finds in the interest of public confidence in an important company and industry.

Mr. Tom Moran

I understand the point the Chairman is making but I stress that it is an independent semi-State body run by a board. There is no obligation to have a Department official on that board.

We know that, but there is something wrong and Departments, whether the Department of Finance or the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, have a responsibility to get to the bottom of the matter and give us an answer.

The Secretary General is very welcome. I want to clarify a few things. Mr. Moran is the Accounting Officer for the Department. Is that correct?

Mr. Tom Moran

Yes.

Is Mr. Moran the Accounting Officer for the National Stud?

Mr. Tom Moran

No.

Does the Department give any money to the National Stud?

Mr. Tom Moran

No.

Does the Comptroller and Auditor General audit the National Stud?

Mr. Tom Moran

No.

Is it audited by an independent body?

Mr. Tom Moran

Yes.

Is it correct that some or all of the board are appointed by the Minister?

Mr. Tom Moran

Yes.

Does Mr. Moran agree that where a Minister has responsibility, there should be some accountability to the Oireachtas for a State company?

Mr. Tom Moran

There is accountability. My understanding is that the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has invited——

That is precisely my point. From what I see here this morning, it is clear that because this is a company not in receipt of State funding, and, therefore, not generally the type of organisation the Comptroller and Auditor General audits, the legislation does not include the National Stud within the remit of reporting directly to this committee? Is that the case?

A part of it should be.

No. What I want to avoid, and what I see a little of, is a turf war. The Department officials will understand that. I see no reason that everything that has been raised here in the past half-hour cannot be raised properly and legitimately at the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. There is such a committee. The Minister is answerable to that committee. A Minister can be called to that committee; he or she cannot be called here. The board can be answerable to that committee because it comes within the remit of the Minister and that committee.

If it is apparent to this committee that we do not have the legislative power to bring in this board, we should immediately request the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, which has the authority to discuss these matters in an open public forum, including questioning whoever it likes on this matter, to immediately do so. Maybe that is not satisfactory to members of this committee. From an Oireachtas point of view, however, I would not want the impression to be given that there is a lacuna or lack of accountability to the Oireachtas. If one's accounts must be laid before the Oireachtas, one is answerable to a committee of the Oireachtas, perhaps not this committee. Would Mr. Moran agree?

Mr. Tom Moran

I see the point. I understand that the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has invited——

Mr. Tom Moran

I believe so.

I am pleased to hear it. I was not aware of it. There is one thing we always want to avoid. We are accused of having too many committees in the Oireachtas and it is always important that we do not duplicate each other's work. I would not see great sense in it, if the Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has already invited them in to discuss this specific issue.

Mr. Tom Moran

I can check that. I hope I am right on that matter.

If that committee has not, I would recommend that it do so.

Regardless of who investigates the matter, whether it is this committee or the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, I hope it is investigated and the truth comes out in the public interest.

Yes, in the Oireachtas and publicly, we are agreed on that.

Mr. Tom Moran

Maybe that is a way to answer that. Maybe that is the correct solution.

There are a few questions I want to put to Mr. Moran on his opening statement. Mr. Moran stated that there were two Supplementary Estimates in 2008. He stated that in December there was the second Supplementary Estimate for €50 million but then we find on the accounts that the Department surrendered €31 million. Where is the Department if a few days before the end of the year it asks the Oireachtas committee to discuss a Supplementary Estimate and asks the Dáil to take a vote on a Supplementary Estimate, and then we find within a matter of days that, in fact, most of it was not needed in the first place? Mr. Moran might comment briefly on that. I could understand it if the Supplementary Estimate was done a long way out, but not where the Department was doing it almost in the run-up to Christmas and then to find that the Department did not spend €31 million of the €50 million that the Oireachtas went to the trouble of passing.

On page 302 of the vote, I note umpteen miscellaneous items. There are at least ten references to various settlements for legal fees, legal costs, out-of-court settlements. Mr. Moran might give us a figure for the total amount of legal fees, legal costs and out-of-court settlements that were paid by the Department during the year, if he has that. There are various bits and pieces listed, but there is no sense of the total amount involved in that category.

Mr. Moran might be surprised about this because it is not too long ago since the matter was mentioned at this committee. Under those legal fees, he might confirm whether there were any payments for the beef tribunal in 2008 because not long before 2008, I am quite sure, we were still seeing such sums. Not long ago I saw €40,000 coming through here at this committee. Has everything been paid for the beef tribunal or were there any payments since the end of 2007? Maybe Mr. Moran would tell us the final cost of the beef tribunal. Perhaps Mr. Moran would address those questions first.

Mr. Tom Moran

I will take the less technical question first. Deputy Fleming asked why was there a Supplementary Estimate in December. It is a very good question. That was to do with the dioxin crisis. I was due before this committee during that week and the Chairman kindly agreed to give me a stay of execution until January, and I always appreciate that.

However, we spent day and night that couple of weeks dealing with the dioxin crisis. In fairness, the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, and the Dáil, were very decent about that Supplementary Estimate because it was needed to get us over that period. We did not know precisely how much we would spend before Christmas, that is the answer to that.

On the legal expenses, the overall estimate for 2008 was €3.3 million and the overall outturn, the total, was €2.8 million.

Does that include legal fees, out-of-court settlements and associated costs? What does that include?

Mr. Tom Moran

I can give the Deputy the details. They range across very technical export refund cases, seafood litigation, a relatively small amount to do with REPS, a small amount of €0.085 million on advice for a legal case, certain milk policy areas in relation to the former staff of the Dublin District Milk Board, and a couple of small cases to do with animal health. There is no major one in that, but I can give the Deputy those details if he wishes.

Mr. Moran can send them to us. I note compensation totalling €576,000 was paid in settlement of 13 legal claims made by non-employees. Is that to do with the Dublin District Milk Board?

Mr. Tom Moran

That was the Dublin District Milk Board matter.

That was the biggest figure in it. Mr. Moran might forward us a note and come back to me if there is anything on the tribunal because we would like to know it is ultimately over.

Mr. Tom Moran

To the best of my knowledge — it is being checked — the residual payments of that were completed by 2008. If I am wrong, I will contact the committee.

Mr. Moran will understand me, being from Portlaoise, asking this question about decentralisation.

Mr. Tom Moran

I will, of course.

The decentralisation programme is a big issue for the Department. I understand the Department's scheduled headquarters in Portlaoise will probably be the biggest Government building, outside the capital city of Dublin, anywhere in the country. Almost 300 staff were already there and more than 300 staff have already decentralised. Therefore, we have more than 600 Department staff in Portlaoise town spread over approximately seven different buildings, understandably, in temporary accommodation.

That project was to go through by way of public private partnership for Mullingar, Carlow and Portlaoise, with three offices to be built together. The planning permission is in place for all of those. The preferred bidder was publicly stated to be Macquarie and Pierse, which are contractors. We got to that stage. I understand, probably due to the international financial crisis, that maybe the cost of finance being quoted by the banks no longer represents good value for money for the taxpayer and the Department is looking again at how it will proceed.

I understand the Portlaoise office is de-bundled and will go ahead as a stand-alone project. The Government has agreed that. The other two, Mullingar and Carlow, are officially not for immediate construction. Those are not part of Mr. Moran's Department.

Will Mr. Moran give a brief update on when we will see the project because the Department must re-tender this in some way now if it is to do a direct build through the OPW? Will he set out the timetable?

The project got to a point. Obviously, detailed designs have already been prepared as part of the process. Has the Department access to those at a reasonable cost rather than having to commence that process again? Is there any commitment to the preferred bidder which would have invested a great deal of money to bring the project to this point, and now if it does not proceed? Would Mr. Moran give a full update on the current position on the Department's new headquarters?

Mr. Tom Moran

There is very little update to give. I am not surprised the Deputy is so well versed in this matter. We are still committed to doing what he outlined, namely, moving our headquarters to Portlaoise. There are approximately 500 staff in Portlaoise at present. One of the only inaccuracies in the Deputy's statement relates to the number of buildings in our possession. I understand we have ten such buildings in Portlaoise at present.

There are 11 leases in respect of seven different properties.

Mr. Tom Moran

That is right. We are looking forward to getting——

To consolidating.

Mr. Tom Moran

We are still working towards putting in place a large building that will accommodate in the region of 800 staff. We have a site and planning permission. It becomes complicated, as the Deputy stated, in respect of debundling the three PPP projects. The project in Portlaoise is going ahead. I am not in a position to provide a date of completion in respect of the building. We are working with the OPW and the Department of Finance to try to progress the project. I do not know whether it will be possible to build on what has already been constructed. Whether it will be possible to do so will determine the completion date.

What will be the next step? What will be done in the coming months? I accept that it will take some time for construction to commence.

Mr. Tom Moran

The project is proceeding on the basis of the traditional build parameters set down by the OPW. The next logical step in the project will be to finalise the plans and to move from the bundle to a single build. Once this has been done, the timetable will become clear. As already stated, there are 500 staff on site in Portlaoise. It would be very much in our interests to have a building to house them. It is difficult to manage 500 staff across several locations. We lack a great deal of the cohesion that might come from having them all housed in the same building.

In addition, the Department is paying substantial rental costs.

Mr. Tom Moran

Yes.

In such circumstances, there is an incentive to get the office up and running. We will continue to monitor the position.

I have four specific questions to put to Mr. Moran. On the dioxin contamination of certain pigmeat products, he indicated that the cost will be €140 million to €150 million and that the EU will pay approximately €20 million of this. Has the Department been able to recoup any of this money from the insurance companies of those who were responsible for this contamination? What level of assets do those whose actions gave rise to this enormous cost to the taxpayer possess? In light of the cost of approximately €120 million to the taxpayer, I would hate to think that we might not pursue every avenue to recoup some of this money from those who caused the problem.

Mr. Tom Moran

There are legal issues involved here. It would not be wise to discuss the matter. However, I take the point the Deputy is making. There was a strong stipulation in the scheme that any product that was withdrawn, at a cost to the Department and, ultimately, the taxpayer, would have to be netted against any insurance the traders and exporters involved possess. The object here was to ensure that there would be no double payments.

Who is responsible for auditing the scheme and examining the position in respect of the payments that have been made to date? All I am seeking is an assurance from Mr. Moran that no stone will be left unturned in seeking to recoup some of the money to which I refer. I accept that he cannot discuss the detail but we require an assurance such as that to which I refer.

Mr. Tom Moran

We examined the insurance policies of all claimants to ensure that no stone would be left unturned. The legal action is ongoing in respect of the cause of the contamination. I will not comment on that matter. The scheme is audited by our very effective internal audit unit. It is also subject to audit by the EU as a result of the latter's €20 million contribution to the overall cost. In addition, it is audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General.

During the year in question, the Department was obliged to close the early retirement scheme and the installation aid scheme for young farmers. As Mr. Moran is aware, several applications were on the brink of being lodged and were submitted to the Department shortly after the deadline. As far as I am aware, the early retirement scheme was reopened to those who had already had their documents stamped. What is the exact position in respect of these applications under the installation aid and early retirement schemes? How many have been paid and how are many are currently in the system?

Mr. Tom Moran

For budgetary reasons, we had no option but to close the early retirement and installation aid schemes. They closed on the day the budget was introduced in 2008. The Deputy is quite correct to state that there were a number of people, approximately 175, whose applications were quite far advanced and which we examined. Some of these applications were ineligible. Of the remainder, however, only five are outstanding.

Do those cases relate to the early retirement scheme?

Mr. Tom Moran

Yes.

Was it the case that no further applications were allowed under the installation aid scheme?

Mr. Tom Moran

That is right.

Mr. Moran referred to staff reductions and the incentivised scheme for early retirement. How many people took up that scheme during the past two years?

Does the policy of placing a cash limit on any future schemes apply in respect of REPS 4, with which large numbers of people are involved? If it is a demand-led scheme, how will it be possible to put in place a cash limit? How will the Department proceed in respect of demand-led schemes and those with fixed budgets? Even if there are deserving cases, they will not be accommodated once the budget relating to a scheme has been spent. How will the Department decide to proceed in this regard?

Mr. Tom Moran

That is a very good question. Deciding how to place a cash limit on a demand-led scheme is not easy. Those people who are involved in REPS 4 at present will be paid until the end of the scheme. Under the AEOS or options scheme, the various contributions people make to environmental enhancement will be weighted. If the cash limit is being approached, it will be possible to divide people to obtain the best value for the money on offer. In other words, if more people provide greater water quality enhancement, their contribution might attract a different weighting to those who might provide other elements of the scheme. It is a complicated process.

The same will apply in respect of the new investment schemes to which we referred earlier. When we set down the terms of the scheme, it may be necessary to have people applying for grants at the full rate and others applying at a lesser rate. Those applying at the lesser rate might have a better chance than those applying at the higher rate.

Right, but let us——

Mr. Tom Moran

There are challenges in respect of every scheme.

If the Department introduces a new suckler cow scheme, how will qualification be decided upon?

Mr. Tom Moran

That is what we have done in respect of the AEOS scheme. We have weighted each of the different options available to people. If we were up against the cash limit and were obliged to cut back, a greater weighting might have to be granted in respect of somebody who was going to——

The rules cannot be changed halfway through.

Mr. Tom Moran

A weighting system is already provided for under the new AEOS scheme. Depending on demand, we may not have to apply it this year. If the figure I gave is correct — we will know within a matter of days — if it is close to 8,000, that will determine the extent to which it will be necessary to invoke the weighting procedures.

Let me make a suggestion that may be helpful, although I am sure the Department has checked what happens in other Departments. Let us take, for example, they way in which national lottery grants for sports bodies were allocated up to a year or two ago. All applications for grants were marked and ranked in order that if the budget was fixed or limited, the applications with the highest rankings would receive the grants available. It was not done on a first come, first served basis; grants were not paid on an ongoing basis because an application with a higher ranking might be submitted later. The scheme had a closing date, followed by a period of assessment in which a ranking was given. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Innovation, formerly the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, had a similar operation for the employment subsidy scheme. Applications under the scheme were weighted according to the number of people kept in employment. There was a fixed budget for the scheme and those employers with the highest weightings received subsidies. While all applicants might have been eligible, only those employers with the highest rankings received subsidies. The administration of the schemes probably adds an extra step to the process before payments are made. I suggest there are ways of doing things that have worked well in other Departments.

I have just two questions. Can some farmers benefit under both the farm improvement scheme and the farm waste management scheme at the same time?

Mr. Tom Moran

Yes.

My next question is one we ask of all Departments which allocate grants and make payments. Is there a link between the Department and the Revenue Commissioners with regard to whom payments are made and their PPS numbers in order that taxation requirements are met?

Mr. Tom Moran

All beneficiaries require to receive tax clearance.

What about their PPS numbers?

Mr. Tom Moran

Yes, they form part of the system.

Thank you, Mr. Moran.

Mr. John Buckley

I recognise that at a time when resources are constrained, it is difficult to determine how money should be allocated to individual clients. I welcome the Department's intention that in future it will target assistance based on the evaluation of applications using defined selection criteria. This applies to the successor schemes at which we have looked.

There is not much more to be said about the management information framework, except that the challenge for the Department is to mine as much information as possible from its various sources in a cost-justified way. These sources include data from inspections to ensure eligibility and cross-compliance checks which may provide feedback to help the Department set policy and determine the shape of schemes for the future.

Is it agreed that we note Vote 31 and dispose of chapters 24 to 26, inclusive? Agreed. I thank the witnesses from the Departments of Finance and Agriculture, Fisheries and Food for their attendance and contributions.

The witnesses withdrew.

We will meet next Thursday in private session to discuss how we will proceed following the three hearings we have held on the issues of bank stabilisation and the failure of regulation. We will also take advice on powers the committee has to summon the retired officials to whom we referred last week, Mr. Neary, Mr. Doyle and Mr. Hurley. We will also look again at the Defamation Act and its implications for the committee.

Perhaps we could also look at our future role with regard to commercial semi-State bodies.

All right.

The committee adjourned at 1.15 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 27 May 2010.
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