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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 10 Nov 2011

Chapter 31: National Sports Campus

Mr. Tom O’Mahony (Secretary General, Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport), called and examined.

I remind members and witnesses to turn off their mobile phones because they interfere with the transmission of the proceedings. I advise witnesses that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they will be entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are reminded of the provision within Standing Order 158 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policy or policies.

I welcome Mr. Tom O'Mahony, Secretary General, Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport and ask him to introduce his officials.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

With me are Mr. Donagh Morgan, assistant secretary general with responsibility for sport, Mr. Paul Bates, assistant secretary general with responsibility for tourism, and Mr. Fintan Towey, principal officer in our finance division. With us from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform is Mr. Brendan Ellison, principal officer.

I call on the Comptroller and Auditor General to make his opening statement. The full text of Chapters 30 and 31 can be found in the Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General or on the website of the Comptroller and Audititor General at www.audgen.gov.ie.

Mr. John Buckley

The Vote for the Department of Tourism, Culture and Sport, which recorded a net expenditure of €446 million, received a clear audit report in 2010. However, two matters were referred to in chapters in my annual report. The first of these related to the administration of the sports capital programme. Inspections by the Department's finance unit found that while grant payments of €300,000 had issued to Basketball Ireland in 2006 to purchase equipment for basketball courts, none of the related equipment was in place by April 2009. In December 2009 the Accounting Officer asked his internal audit unit to examine the matter. Its preliminary findings were that during the period 1999 to 2006, only around 20% of equipment for which funding had been provided had been put in place. Some €1.8 million had been made available during the period in question and the remainder of the funds were used to support other basketball programmes, including a regional development programme.

Based on the preliminary internal audit findings the net issues in this case, from a public accountability perspective, were that the scheme rules were not complied with in that the bulk of the equipment had not been acquired and, because funds were diverted to other purposes, a substantial amount of capital funding was not applied for the purpose intended. This incident and some other results which surfaced on foot of the Department's inspection programme which are recorded in the chapter suggested a need to improve both the vouching of grant payments and the timeliness of follow-up in non-compliant cases. The chapter records the revised procedures the Accounting Officer has put in place.

Chapter 31 draws attention to two financial matters relating to the national sports campus. Both of those matters arose out of litigation. First, included in the costs recorded in the 2009 financial statements of the National Sports Campus Development Authority is the cost of a settlement with a firm that was unsuccessful in its bid to construct the National Aquatic Centre. The unsuccessful bidder sued on the basis of alleged non-compliance with EU procurement rules. The settlement contained a confidentiality clause. Overall, the total cost of legal and professional fees in the year in which the settlement was paid came to €2.8 million. In addition, €287,000 in costs were borne directly by the Vote of the Department.

The second matter relates to the National Sports Campus Development Authority seeking to charge VAT of €10.25 million on the capitalised value of a 30-year lease of the National Aquatic Centre to an operator, namely, Dublin Waterworld Limited. Following an appeal, the Supreme Court found that the transaction was not subject to VAT. This was because, ultimately, the capitalised value of the lease was less than the cost of acquisition and development and was, therefore, exempted from VAT.

The audit concern in this matter was that, while recognising that the issue of VAT became linked with other grounds of action in a wider litigation seeking forfeiture of the lease, ultimately, even if a successful outcome to the VAT issue had been achieved, it would not have conferred any net financial benefit on the State once the lessee was a taxable person entitled to recover his VAT input costs.

The cost of taking the case had yet to be determined at the time of reporting. More generally, the outcome of these types of litigation cases suggest that, first, in the interests of transparency, some ground rules may be desirable in the case of settlements, particularly around confidentiality clauses agreed by State agencies and, second, where financial objectives are the subject matter of proposed litigation, apart from an assessment of the prospect of success, which should obviously be done in every case, the net overall benefit to the State should also be considered at the outset.

The Accounting Officer will be in a position to update the committee on any developments since the reports were completed.

I invite Mr. O'Mahony to make his opening statement.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

As the Chairman requested, I sent an advanced briefing to the committee last week and I will therefore keep my opening statement short. The Vote which is under scrutiny today was the responsibility of the Department of Tourism, Culture and Sport in the period in question. On the change of Government last March, the tourism and sport functions of that Department were merged with the Department of Transport, of which I was already the Secretary General, to form the new Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport. As a result, I have inherited the Accounting Officer role for the 2010 expenditure on tourism and sport and in regard to the issues that are examined in Chapters 30 and 31 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report.

The advance briefing material starts with a table which provides a breakdown of Exchequer expenditure on tourism and sport in 2010 and the amounts allocated for 2011. The total for tourism was just under €141 million in 2010 and almost €148 million in 2011. The total for sport was €113 million in 2010 and in excess of €91 million in 2011, including a capital carryover of €5 million.

On tourism performance, the material provides data to show that visitor numbers are recovering well this year and it looks as if we will come close to retrieving all the traffic that was lost last year. The material explains the various categories of expenditure on sport and updates the committee on the Government's recent decision on the Minister's strategy for developing the National Sports Campus. There are two chapters on sports issues in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, as the Comptroller and Auditor General has outlined, and the advance material also summarises the position on those.

As regards Chapter 30, on the sports capital programme, the Comptroller and Auditor General reports on a number of cases where the Department's own inspection system found that certain grant recipients had not complied properly with the conditions of the scheme. One case resulted in the then Accounting Officer requesting his internal audit unit to report on all payments made to the body in question. That report had been drafted, but not finalised, when the changeover of Departments took place. The internal audit unit of the new Department is now completing the report with the assistance of the auditor who did the original work.

Since December 2010, revised procedures have been put in place to reduce the scope for grants to be used other than for the purpose for which they were awarded, and I note that the Comptroller and Auditor General acknowledges this in his report.

Chapter 31 of the report deals with the development to date of the National Sports Campus and refers in particular to two legal cases. In the first case, one of the underbidders for the award of the contract for the National Aquatic Centre in 2001 sought a judicial review of the outcome in the High Court. This case was settled without any admission of liability. I should point out that the procurement of the centre was already investigated by the Attorney General in 2002. His report was given to the Committee of Public Accounts in the context of its examination of the Campus and Stadium Ireland Development Company, and at that time the committee had extensive hearings but did not make any findings or recommendations. The second case involved Dublin Waterworld and a VAT liability in regard to the National Aquatic Centre. I am aware that the previous Accounting Officer responded in detail to correspondence from the committee on these issues.

In preparation for today's meeting, I have examined documentation that shows that the position taken by the then Department and by Campus and Stadium Ireland Development Company, which I will refer to as "campus" for convenience, was in accordance with legal and financial advice and with the Revenue Commissioners' then guidelines on how the VAT regulations were to be interpreted. On foot of this, campus included a claim for payment of the VAT among a range of issues in a High Court case which it took against Dublin Waterworld. The High Court referred the VAT issue to arbitration and found for campus on the other key issues in the claim. On the VAT issue, the arbitrator held with campus and the High Court upheld his decision. However, the Supreme Court last year held that the arbitrator had erred in law and referred the case back to arbitration. The campus authority at that point, having taken further advice, decided to withdraw from the arbitration process and is therefore no longer pursuing the VAT issue. I should point out that one consequence of the Supreme Court decision was that Revenue's interpretation of the VAT regulation, which had been an important factor in campus's approach up to that point, was now found to be incorrect.

I am happy to answer any questions the committee may have in so far as I can and if I do not have any necessary information to hand, I will undertake to supply it to the committee without delay.

The lead speaker today is Deputy Derek Nolan to be followed by Deputy Harris. Before we move on to the detail, I have one question for Mr. O'Mahony in regard to what he said about the Committee of Public Accounts because I want the members to know the position. He said in his opening remarks that he was before the Committee of Public Accounts previously on this matter and I presume his reference to the Attorney General in 2002 is to the Comptroller and Auditor General report.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

I was not before the Committee of Public Accounts on this matter. I said that the Attorney General did a report into-----

Is that the Comptroller and Auditor General or the Attorney General? I want to be clear on that.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

The Attorney General. In 2002, the then Attorney General was asked by Government to do a report when issues about this contract came to light. The Committee of Public Accounts at that time had hearings on the accounts of the Campus and Stadium Ireland Development Company. The Attorney General's report was given to it . I am told there were about four days of hearings on it at that time. The only thing I am saying is that the issues that arise in regard to the efficiencies in that procurement process were extensively examined by this committee nine years ago.

Before members put their questions, I wish to make the point that the members of the Committee of Public Accounts at that time had serious concerns about all these issues but they did not go into great detail on the procurement matter. There were limited resources and we did not go into that detail. It would be wrong to give the impression that we were satisfied at that time. I was a member of the committee and I have to tell Mr. O'Mahony that I was far from satisfied. I want to make that clear to the other members in case the interpretation is taken that the investigation concluded and members were happy. That was simply not the case. I call Deputy Nolan.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Chairman, I certainly did not intend to give that impression.

To put the matter in context, the State approved the Campus Stadium Ireland project in 2000, and I wish to focus on that while Deputy Harris will focus on the capital issue, which was the campus in Abbotstown. In 2003 the National Aquatic Centre was built and was up and running in time for the Special Olympics. Then there was a change of policy to remove the stadium element from among other items and in 2007 the company changed to being the National Sports Campus Development Authority with a remit to develop the site as a training and sports campus.

I draw Mr. O'Mahony's attention to page 443 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report and the figure of €147 million for the outlay on the sports campus, which is the outlay to date from 31 December 2010. It is pointed out there that €74 million has been spent on the aquatic centre which includes construction costs. Can Mr. O'Mahony give the detail of the other costs, namely, the infrastructure, master planning and the ancillary development costs and for what that money was used?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

I doubt if I have that material with me. I am sorry. It is in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. The total is €119 million, which includes €74 million for the aquatic centre. Does Deputy Nolan want a breakdown of the figure?

I am inquiring about the infrastructure, master-planning and the ancillary development costs under campus development.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

We will have to send that information on to the committee because we are talking about design fees and other fees. I do not have a detailed breakdown of the figures but I can certainly send it on to the Deputy.

Good. Approximately €119 million was spent. Some €74 million was spent on an actual physical structure. I am trying to figure out what we got physically for the other €45 million. There are a large number of fees, costs, grants, administration and development costs but I fail to see where the other €45 million delivered a physical structure or building that is available to the State.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

A total of €13.2 million was spent on professional fees and legal costs. I assume that would include costs related to the National Aquatic Centre.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

The work that has gone on in regard to infrastructure, master-planning and ancillary development costs is putting in place the planning for a range of other elements of the campus. The policy position on them is that they will be going ahead. They include-----

What other physical structure is involved? What is there now that has been paid for out of the €119 million?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

What is available now is the aquatic centre and accommodation facilities for various sports bodies. What will be in place - this is what a lot of the planning has been about - is training and sports facilities in a range of sports, a headquarters for all national governing bodies and the most significant element of the proposal, which is the national indoor arena. However, the question of when and how it will be possible to fund it remains to be decided by Government.

All we have at present is a training centre and an aquatic centre.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

We have the aquatic centre in place. The training facilities are not yet in place.

This funding does not just cover the period from 2007 when the new company was in charge; it goes back to 2000 when CSID was in place.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

The table says that it is the total outlay on the project to date.

Is it for the two companies, the original company and the successor company?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Yes.

I understand the amount relating to professional fees and legal costs. Could Mr. O'Mahony explain the executive services of €3 million that was paid?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

We can provide the Deputy with a full breakdown of it. I will ask Mr. Morgan who has a detailed knowledge of the brief to answer that.

Mr. Donagh Morgan

The executive services team was procured at the outset by Campus Stadium Ireland Development. It consisted of financial services, legal services, a design and project management team - essentially all the elements that would be required to put the campus in place.

Was that an outsourced function?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

It was an outsourced function by the company.

Did it provide consultancy work?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

The Deputy could call it consultancy but it was the team that was put in place which provided all the various elements that would be required by the company to deliver the project which had been requested by the Government.

On top of the €3 million, a total of €7.6 million was also spent on administration. I assume those functions were similar ones.

Mr. Donagh Morgan

The latter amount relates to administration costs from 2000.

We have spent €45 million on preparation since 2000 without getting anything for it yet.

Mr. Donagh Morgan

Yes.

I grant it to Mr. Morgan that one has to pay for planning and such matters but is it the case that we have nothing to show for the €45 million except for a master plan and projects that will go ahead?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

I would not underestimate the value of the master plan. It was done for the whole site. The site is 500 acres. The original plan provided for sailing facilities as well. All of that had gone out to the market before the Government decided not to proceed with that element of it. The master plan and its successor, the development control plan, are still in place and as the Secretary General said, the Government decided on 21 June last to proceed on an incremental basis. That will all be of value as the project is taken forward.

It has been agreed to proceed at a slower pace, based on resources.

Mr. Donagh Morgan

It is because of the financial constraints.

Could Mr. O'Mahony explain the reference to grants to the National Aquatic Centre of €7.8 million?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

The National Aquatic Centre needs a small subsidy in order to be viable.

How much is the subsidy per annum?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

At the moment it is working out at approximately €1.03 million per annum.

It was the case that the aquatic centre was supposed to be profitable. Test cases were carried out and the worst case scenario is that it would be profitable while the best case scenario was that it would be considerably profitable. What happened that we must now provide a subsidy of €1 million?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

I suppose all that can be said is that the projections were overly optimistic in the light of the economic environment in which we are now in.

Has it ever been profitable? Did it get a subsidy in 2006 or 2007 at the height of the boom when everything was great?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

Could I answer that question?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

When the aquatic centre was originally established a special purpose company was operating it. As part of the bidding process the information that would have been given to Campus Stadium Ireland Development is that it would be a profitable organisation. As a result of the litigation the National Aquatic Centre was returned to the control of CSID and it was discovered that it was not profitable. Subsequently, once it was back in control CSID undertook a benchmarking study where it was benchmarked against 50 other comparable centres around Europe. All of those were found to need a subsidy.

Who did the business case in 2000 when the centre was constructed that said it would be profitable?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

It was the bidding company, the Waterworld consortium.

I assume that a design, build, operate contract was used for the aquatic centre.

Mr. Donagh Morgan

That is correct.

Before the operation of the centre was put out to tender did the Department carry out a cost analysis to show that it would be profitable? Who did that work?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

It was PricewaterhouseCoopers.

Does the Department still engage PricewaterhouseCoopers?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

I do not work for the company so Deputy Nolan should address the question to the company. As I understand it, the company no longer has an executive services team. It uses consultancy as it is required.

In Vote 35 on page 478 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report it states that the National Sports Campus received €5.5 million in funding in 2010 and €6.4 million in 2009. A total of €1 million related to the subsidy for the pool. What was the remaining €4 million to €5 million used for?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

It is for capital development.

Does it feed into the figure for administration costs, master-planning and other costs on page 147 of the report?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Yes.

Of the current spending that is received every year of €5.5 million in 2010, is the money accounted for in the overall expenditure to date on page 147?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Yes.

The aquatic centre seems to have a very troubled history. From some cursory investigation I carried out I understand there was a media report of a leak in the pool when it first opened. There were also media reports of the roof blowing off.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Part of the roof was damaged.

Then we had the Comptroller and Auditor General's report which listed two substantial court cases attached to it.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Yes.

I wish to refer briefly to the two court cases. The first case related to the award of the contract by Dublin International Arena Limited. Mr. O'Mahony mentioned that the case was discussed by the Committee of Public Accounts in 2002. I understand that the case was only settled in 2009. Is that correct? Did the Department accept the costs for that from the other party?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

If I can explain exactly what happened, one of the under-bidders sought judicial review and initially claimed damages for a very high figure probably of the order of €40 million. It took a long period for various reasons for that case to progress. In the first instance the State sought and got from the High Court an award for full security for costs. Dublin International Arena Limited, which we call DIAL, appealed to the Supreme Court regarding the order. It took until 2007 because there was a delay on the part of DIAL in lodging its books of appeal. In 2007, the Supreme Court allowed the appeal, which meant the issue was cleared to go to the High Court. At various stages, the amount that was being sought in the claim by the company was reducing, but the level of damages being sought could not be recommended to the Government. In the first place, the Government did not accept that it would lose the case.

A point was reached after the case commenced in the High Court where it became clear that DIAL would be willing to settle the case for a very small fraction of the original claim. The assessment of the State's legal advisers at that point was that, based on the risk of losing the case, the balance of the costs that would ensue, which would be very substantial if the case continued for the length of time it might have continued and if the State were ultimately liable for all or part of those costs, would be such that the amount of the settlement on offer was better economic value for the taxpayer. On that basis, without any admission of liability, a settlement was agreed in 2009. As the Comptroller and Auditor General said, a condition of the settlement was that the terms would be confidential. I take the Comptroller and Auditor General's point that there is a policy issue in this regard that should be examined. That is an issue beyond my remit today.

Rather than incurring further costs in litigation-----

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Yes

-----the decision was to get out.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

It was to get the best economic value for the taxpayer on a balance of risk. It is possible that if the case had concluded, the State would have won and would have been awarded its costs. That would have been the best-case scenario and there would have been no cost to the taxpayer. All the potential outcomes would have been analysed by the legal team and it advised that, once a point was reached where it was clear the other side would settle for a particular amount, the balance for the taxpayer favoured settlement. Therefore, a settlement was made. It would not be true to say the case was lost, because it was neither won nor lost.

Did the Department pay the defendant's legal fees?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

It was agreed to pay the costs.

That was part of the settlement.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

That was part of the settlement.

DIAL is not out of pocket by a penny. Have all its legal fees been paid?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Its legal fees have been paid.

We paid it money.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Yes.

I will not go into it further because I know there is a confidentiality agreement.

The second case concerns Dublin Waterworld. From my reading, it seems that after the operation came into being, there was a bad relationship immediately between it and CSID, leading to a claim in 2005 that covered many aspects pertaining to accounts provision, a sinking fund and the VAT issue. The case was taken in 2005, as far as I am aware. The VAT issue was subject to arbitration and taken out of the proceedings.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Yes.

Thereafter, the other proceedings were settled and Dublin Waterworld vacated the-----

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

They were not settled. In the other proceedings, the High Court found for CSID.

It found for CSID and Dublin Waterworld left the National Aquatic Centre.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Yes.

I am trying to understand the issue of VAT liability. I was reading about it yesterday and we received some correspondence from parties thereon. This revolved around an economic value test pertaining to VAT. There was a dispute between CSID and Dublin Waterworld as to whether the VAT could be passed on and claimed back or there was a VAT-exempt lease. Who gave CSID the advice initially that the lease was subject to VAT?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

The Revenue Commissioners' guidelines of the time on the interpretation of the VAT legislation were applied. There is documentation that I can pass on to the committee and, depending on members' questions, I can quote from it. I have a detailed letter from the Revenue Commissioners that confirms that, at the time, the fact that CSID registered for VAT at all was consistent with the Revenue Commissioners' treatment of similar special-purpose companies. I stress the phrase "at the time" because, as I said in my opening statement, the Supreme Court ruling in 2009 ultimately had the effect of causing the Revenue to change its interpretation of VAT legislation, its guidelines.

It was the Revenue Commissioners' view at the time that the relevant regulation permitted the lessor to choose between valuation methods. That view was published in their guidelines on VAT and property transactions. The Revenue Commissioners' interpretation at the time was that CSID was obliged to issue an invoice to Dublin Waterworld in 2003 based on a valuation method in the regulation once the valuation method passed the economic value test. This letter, which was written in September of this year, states the Revenue Commissioners only formed the view that CSID was not a taxable person following the delivery of the Supreme Court judgment that the interpretation was incorrect. If we are talking about a sports issue, perhaps I can use the term "game changer" in this regard. The Supreme Court judgment in 2009 was a game changer. Until then, the interpretation of the VAT regulation not only supported the position that CSID took but actually required it to take that position. When the Supreme Court stated in 2009 that the guidelines were actually an incorrect interpretation of the regulation, the Revenue Commissioners then accepted this and changed their guidelines. This meant that, retrospectively, the position that had been taken by CSID on VAT was wrong but only on the basis of the new interpretation of the VAT regulation. It was not wrong at the time. When CSID went to the High Court in 2005 with a whole range of issues pertaining to the lease, the question arose as to whether the VAT issue should be included in the case.

In 2004 - I am sure the members are aware of this because the Comptroller and Auditor General referred to it in his opening statement - the Comptroller and Auditor General had advised that there was no economic benefit to pursuing the VAT issue because if the VAT had been collected, it would then have been claimable back by the person paying it, thus having no net effect. At the time, the Office of the Attorney General also advised that the issue should not be pursued. However, at the start of 2005, when it became clear that it would be necessary to go to court in regard to a range of issues concerning the lease, the Attorney General issued new advise to the effect that, in those circumstances, it would be important to check with CSID's legal advisers whether the VAT issue should also be included. The advice that emerged from that and which was subsequently endorsed by the Attorney General was that the VAT issue should be included. At the same time, the Department of Finance was consulted. Having consulted the Revenue Commissioners, it then reported that there was not even an option here. Because this is the interpretation of the VAT legislation, there is a charge which must be collected and must be included in the case. Consequently, at the time, based on the interpretation of VAT legislation as it then stood and continued to stand up until the Supreme Court judgment of 2009, the legal advice of both the advisers of Campus and Stadium Ireland Development Company, CSID, and of the Attorney General, the financial advice of the CSID's advisers, of the Department of Finance and of the Revenue Commissioners all stated exactly the same thing, namely, the VAT claim must be included.

Mr. O'Mahony made a point in the previous discussion. First, it is important to remember the case is split and this VAT issue was a stand-alone issue. After it split from the main case, which the Department won, over a five-year period it proceeded with it into the Supreme Court.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

We did not proceed with it. What happened there was that the High Court referred the VAT part of the case to arbitration. The CSID won on the arbitration and the High Court confirmed that. Dublin Waterworld appealed to the Supreme Court. As the Deputy states, it then proceeded to the Supreme Court, which made a judgment in 2009.

I revert to a point mentioned by Mr. O'Mahony. The Comptroller and Auditor General was very clear in the letter of 2004 mentioned by Mr. O'Mahony, of which I only had sight yesterday.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Yes.

He stated that ultimately, the recovery of this €10 million in VAT confers no benefit on the Exchequer.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Yes.

Consequently, regardless of whether the case was won or lost, there would be no difference to the Exchequer. It would either be taken as a hit by the Revenue Commissioners or by the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport. Either way, the aforementioned €10 million would not make a difference to the State finances. Mr. O'Mahony has just told me that in respect of the previous case concerning Dublin International Arena Limited, the Department received advice. It asked for the best risk for the taxpayer when proceeding and about the risk of succeeding or not succeeding.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Yes.

The Department took a decision there that it would rather take a settlement of more than €2 million, when taking into account confidentiality, costs and the whole lot, rather than proceeding. In this case, there was nothing to be lost for the Exchequer and the CSID would merely be obliged to give an explanation to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport. Although there was nothing to be lost and no costs were involved, the Department still proceeded with the VAT case. All that would happen is that it would either lose, in which case it would incur legal costs, or it would win, in which case no Exchequer benefit would accrue to the State. The Department continued, having received the aforementioned letter from the Comptroller and Auditor General, who recommended that it look into "what steps might be taken to minimise or avoid further costs". However, the Department continued on with the case regardless. There is a contradiction between the Department's response in the first case and its response in the second case.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

I do not think so. As for the first case, the question arose, as happens in any court case, as to whether there should be a settlement. In respect of the VAT issue, the Comptroller and Auditor General pointed out that there would be no economic benefit in proceeding with this and that advice was accepted. Moreover, the Attorney General's office also stated that this advice should be accepted. Shortly afterwards, the issue then arose. I do not wish to go over exactly the same ground as I did previously, but it became clear that a court case was now unavoidable. There would be and had to be a court case on the wider issue.

Why was the VAT included?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

This is the point I have just made to the Deputy. Because there was to be a court case anyway, the Attorney General's office stated that in those circumstances, it had better be established whether the VAT should or should not be part of that case. Legal advisers to the CSID confirmed it should be and the Attorney General endorsed that advice. More importantly, the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Finance advised that as the VAT charge had been raised, it was not open to the Department to waive it. Their advice essentially was that legally, we could not do what the Attorney General had stated we should do. That is the short answer to the Deputy's question.

I refer to the Attorney General's advice in the first letter. Incidentally, I note Mr. O'Mahony mentioned that the second advice from the Attorney General was that it had better be established whether the VAT issue ought to be included.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Yes.

That is not advice but is a suggestion. It does not state "included" but states it should be established whether it ought to be included. The Office of the Attorney General wrote in November 2004 "it is regrettable that so much time and money has been expended ... on the issue and its highly paid advisors did not display the lateral thinking of the C&AG ... [and] it seems prudent and appropriate to accept the suggestion of the C&AG."

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Yes.

I also note a passage stating "I note that the valuers' estimate does not pass the economic value test" in respect of the VAT issue and the lease that members are contesting. The Attorney General's advice in 2004 was that while the CSID may have been a company that could charge VAT, the lease on which it wished to do so did not pass the requirements for that and therefore, this was a null point anyway.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

That advice in 2004 was superseded by subsequent advice.

But it is very clear.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

It is. However, I must state another letter was provided to the Department in 2010 - I think in the context of correspondence that was going on between Dublin Waterworld and either the Committee of Public Accounts or the Department but I am uncertain which. The advisory counsel in the Attorney General's office who had written the letter from which the Deputy is quoting in 2004, sent a further letter in 2010. I have asked the Attorney General's office whether it would be permissible for me to make available this letter to the committee and I have been informed that I may, if it so wishes. The aforementioned counsel stated that the letter he sent in 2004 was written in the context of a particular memorandum that had been put to him and that interpretations that had been taken out of it were not what it was intended to state. The letter goes on to state "The documents do not in themselves prove anything and issues already have been debated in other venues." There was a VAT liability and there was a way of dealing with the dispute about that liability, which was taken. It noted the issues had been put to the Supreme Court, which had now reserved judgment - it was written before the Supreme Court judgment was made - and stated "from the documents, it appears that the Revenue Commissioners were satisfied that VAT liability arose with respect of the lease and that valuation was subject to regulation 19 of the 1979 VAT regulations".

I cannot dispute the existence of the 2004 letter and I agree the letter states exactly what the Deputy has read out. However my point is that there is subsequent advice, including advice from the same advisory counsel in the Attorney General's office, which supersedes it.

I refer to the other correspondence that was received yesterday and circulated to members this morning. It was from PricewaterhouseCoopers regarding Campus and Stadium Ireland Development Limited and I believe it was directed to Mr. Morgan. It appears to be a reaction to a letter from Mr. Morgan on how it could implement the Comptroller and Auditor General's recommendation of no longer continuing. It states "Assuming that the Minister accedes to this course of action, the next issue is to address whether we can effectively "backtrack" and turn the CSID VAT position completely around without incurring any penalties". In other words, consideration was given by the Department to doing exactly what the Comptroller and Auditor General recommended. It goes on to note:

the net impact ... if this route is successfully pursued is that the accounts will reflect a higher charge for the construction of the facility, rather than a VAT exclusive cost. This increased cost has been funded by the increased loan from the Department. While this is clearly neutral from the State's perspective ...

In other words there was no cost to the State in fighting it. I am trying to find out what was the logic for continuing to fight a case to the Supreme Count when simply giving up would have incurred no legal costs and would have had no impact on the State.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

From going through these files, it seems clear to me that by the end of 2004, a consensus and a position had been reached in line with what the then Comptroller and Auditor General suggested and the letter the Deputy just read out. The policy position was not to pursue this project. What changed was that the overall case regarding the lease was now being taken. At that point the question of whether the VAT had to be part of that case was re-examined. It became not just a question of it being a circular payment that did not matter but what were the legal obligations on the company concerning VAT. The advice that emerged was that notwithstanding that everyone accepted this was a circular transaction, there was also a legal obligation to collect this.

As for the reasons it went to the Supreme Court, the position of CSID, Campus and Stadium Ireland Development Company, was sustained by the arbitrator and the High Court. CSID now had a result. However, it was appealed to the Supreme Court. If CSID did not pursue it any further, the difficulties I would be in before this committee would be much greater than those I am in this morning.

Dublin Waterworld Limited decided to appeal to the Supreme Court. The State's choice was either not to fight or continue with a case they had already won. What changed in 2009 was the Supreme Court's interpretation of the VAT legislation. That was the game changer.

Who made the decision to continue the action on the VAT issue?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

That was Dublin Waterworld's decision because it appealed to the Supreme Court.

What about the decision to go back to arbitration on it?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

The High Court sent the case back to arbitration. The VAT issue was part of the overall claim that went to the High Court in 2005. The High Court referred that part of it to arbitration because that was what was provided for in the lease.

Was there further contact with the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General when legal expenses began to be incurred?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

In a normal course, contact with the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General is through the annual audit process. I would not have expected the Department to contact the office seeking a review of this case. Contact was made with the Office of the Attorney General and the Department of Finance.

Mr. O'Mahony stated the discussion at the time was the VAT issue should be included in the statement of claim.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Yes.

Was this because of the company's obligations that had to be fulfilled?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

That was both the legal advice and the advice of the Department of Finance having consulted with the Revenue Commissioners.

The concern is that four years ago the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Attorney General said there was no economic value in pursuing this case, yet it went all the way to the Supreme Court which the State lost. I assume the State has been left with its own legal costs and those of Dublin Waterworld Limited.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Yes.

How much are the State's legal costs?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

The total costs have not been finalised yet because it is a matter for the Taxing Master. As far as I can see, the costs will run into a number of hundreds of thousands of euro. They will not go into seven figures or anywhere near it, however.

I must stress neither the State nor CSID pursued this matter to the Supreme Court. It went to the High Court and the case was won there. In 2008 the Accounting Officer would have informed this committee about a case which the State took and won. The case was then appealed by Dublin Waterworld Limited and it won.

Supposing it was 2005 and Mr. O'Mahony told the committee the case has been returned to arbitration. What if he said the State should not pursue the case and write it off? There were letters from the Attorney General and the Comptroller and Auditor General suggesting that was the route to take.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

There was a 2004 letter from the Attorney General which was superseded by 2005 advice which said otherwise. The legal advice from the Department of Finance was that it was not legally open to us to do what the Deputy has just suggested.

I thank Mr. O'Mahony.

When one gets into court proceedings, the basics of the argument tend to be lost. If one is setting out to pursue a case on behalf of oneself, a company or the State, one must have some sort of notion of where one is going. In this case the parties plodded on regardless. Mr. O'Mahony offers the explanation that the case was neither won nor lost, yet the taxpayer lost a lot of money in this. The executive services team that was appointed had a lot of money coming in from the taxpayer but it made numerous errors. Deputy Nolan referred to the PricewaterhouseCoopers analysis of the plan stating the centre would make millions of euro but now it is being subsidised by the taxpayer. How much was this company paid to look into the plan? Has the Department asked it where it all went wrong?

On the VAT case, it is obvious hundreds of thousands of euro are due to be paid to both parties by the State — the taxpayer. It is the taxpayer who is being squeezed. Part of the centre's roof was blown off, which this committee heard about previously. The centre was not certified until 2010. With Dublin International Arena Limited, DIAL, legal costs have come in at €2.5 million. Who introduced the confidentiality clause in that settlement? Was it the State?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

That was the settlement.

Mr. O'Mahony should know who introduced it.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

It is not evident from the files.

It should be.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

It is not evident from the files.

I suggest Mr. O'Mahony finds out who put it in because I want to know. The confidentiality clause is put in for a purpose. What was the thinking behind this move? The taxpayer is entitled to know, at least, why it was put in. If the Department did a deal on behalf of the State or spoke about the confidentiality clause in terms of the settlement, then we are entitled to know and Mr. O'Mahony or some of his officials here should know.

Mr. O'Mahony is referring to a number of matters here this morning - the Department of Finance papers, the Revenue papers, the Attorney General papers, and so on. Has he given those to the committee?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

I can give the committee anything it wants.

The question is: has Mr. O'Mahony already given those to the committee?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

I do not think they were requested.

Then we are not asking the right questions. If Mr. O'Mahony is coming before the Committee of Public Accounts about serious amounts of money such as this, the least the committee should expect is full disclosure on his side. Mr. O'Mahony refers to papers here and suggests that the committee might get copies. He suggests with regard to a Revenue letter of September of this year from which he quotes, that he might send a copy to us. Mr. O'Mahony should arm the committee with every piece of paper so that we can understand the fairly complex arrangement into which the Department entered over a long period with what I consider to be the loss of considerable amounts of money to the taxpayer. While he quotes law in courts, the word "commonsense" has not entered into the conversation at all this morning. Will Mr. O'Mahony ensure that any papers to which he has referred from Finance, Revenue or the Attorney General's office, or the letter from Revenue, will be made available to each member of the committee so that we can assess where we are going in this regard?

The overall question, to try to prepare some ground for Deputy Harris, is: in all of the advice the Department got, for example, how much did it pay to PwC and has it gone back to PwC and others to find out where it went wrong? Who pays a penalty here? Is it only the taxpayer who coughs up this money or is there someone who gave advice to whom Mr. O'Mahony can go back for at least an answer to some of the queries being raised?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Is that question about the VAT issue?

Let me be specific. The Department was told by PricewaterhouseCoopers that it would make anything from €0.5 million to €2.1 million. How much did the Department pay for that?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

I will ask Mr. Morgan.

Mr. Donagh Morgan

Sorry, Chairman, could I respond to that? When I explained to Deputy Nolan about the executive services team, PricewaterhouseCoopers were part of that team. I could not, off the top of my head, break down for the committee the cost of any particular set of advices. The executive services team were paid a fee.

How much?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

At the time, I think it was €127,000 a month.

A month?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

Yes.

For how long?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

Certainly, for the first couple of years of the project and then it was subsequently reduced to about €57,000 a month.

Would that be €3 million?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

It would be €3 million, yes.

Is it easy to say that? Is that an easy answer to give?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

The Chairman is asking for the cost of a particular advice or a particular letter.

Mr. Morgan could have stated that the advice is detailed somewhere within that payment of €3 million. Is it correct to say that?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

We are not trying to hide anything from the committee here. There was detailed correspondence with the committee over the past couple of years which set out all the detail of this and there was an offer of any other information or papers that the committee wanted. There is no difficulty about providing it.

This is €3 million or €127,000 a month, and they gave the Department these figures which did not stand up. What do they think of those figures now? Has the Department asked them?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

When it was decided to build the National Aquatic Centre an assessment on the costs was provided by PricewaterhouseCoopers. That was used in the assessment of the bids received from the people who wanted to operate the centre.

So far, we only have nearly €3 million lost to the State. That is the story so far.

I thank Mr. O'Mahony for his presentation. I am meant to focus on the basketball hoops but I do not think we are finished just yet with the swimming pool.

This project was at the highest possible level of Government. The then Taoiseach had expressed a personal interest in it. There were links between the Department of the Taoiseach and the Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation at the time. We have heard about the significant amount of costs on consultancy, executive services and advice.

To take a step back and to refer to page 450 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, really from the very start of this project, before there were any legal cases, this project was costed on a false premise. According to the report, "Ultimately, the recovery of VAT from the lessee would not have conferred any additional benefit to the Exchequer once the lessee was a taxable person entitled to full VAT recovery on its inputs.", in other words, this project was under costed by the Department from day one. Can we acknowledge that? The Comptroller and Auditor General does in the sense that the report states that the cost of the facility to the authorities increased by €9.65 million as all construction VAT fell to be met by the authority.

This was all wrong. I accept Mr. O'Mahony was not in situ at the time and he is fielding questions, but there was a mistake in the costing of this project from day one, before we even entered court cases and arbitration.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Yes, on foot of the Supreme Court judgment of 2009 which changed the interpretation. Under the interpretation as it was at the time, that would not be correct.

Mr. O'Mahony speaks of 2009. We have heard significant reference to 2009 and sports analogies, which is fair game when one is the Secretary General at the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport. On an extension of that analogy where Mr. O'Mahony speaks repeatedly of how the Department won the High Court case, it is a game of two halves. The next half was in the Supreme Court where the Department lost.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Yes.

There was a loss. We must be clear here. Whether it was the Department's interpretation, the Attorney General's interpretation or whether it was the interpretation of the Department of Finance and the Revenue Commissioners, the interpretation was legally wrong,-----

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Yes.

-----the highest court in the land found it to be wrong and we, the taxpayers, are footing the Bill. It is important that we acknowledge that at the start.

There were a number of other matters, I suppose three other game changers that happened in advance of 2009. Two of them have been referred to but I want to revisit them from a slightly different aspect.

One that has not been referred to is the change in legislation in 2002. Am I correct in stating that there was a change in legislation in 2002 on the payment of VAT whereby the new legislation stated that VAT was only applicable if the market value exceeds the building cost of a project?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

I am not an expert on VAT legislation. All I can say is that the Revenue Commissioners confirmed to us, and have confirmed in the past two months, that at the time that the VAT liability was raised by campus, they were correct under the legislation, as then interpreted. I do not know anything about changes in VAT legislation in 2002. All I know is that Revenue has stated that at the time this was correct.

It is my understanding that there was a change in legislation in 2002 which changed the way the issue of VAT was to be viewed. If there was a legislative change of which Mr. O'Mahony is or is not aware, one would imagine the Revenue Commissioners would have been aware of it.

I am asking questions - the Chairman has referred to it - based on a supply of correspondence that I have which is clearly incomplete, and Mr. O'Mahony has more correspondence. If we could have all the correspondence from Revenue,------

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Yes.

-----it would be helpful. It would also be helpful if we had such correspondence in advance in future in the case of different Accounting Officers.

I would like to have this issue explored further. There was a change in legislation. It changed the way VAT was to be viewed. I am informed it happened as far back as 2002. If that is the case, surely officials in Revenue were aware of it in that seven year period.

One gets the sense here that this project was so predicated on having this VAT paid by Dublin Waterworld that everything would be thrown at it and if the Department got a letter from the Attorney General saying one thing or advice from the Comptroller and Auditor General, there was a constant effort to make the project fit to get this VAT bill paid and, ultimately, that has not worked out. That is the way I see it.

I want to come back to the letter from the Office of the Attorney General of 2004 where it refers to the wasteful spending. We talked about the issue of consultants. The Chairmen referred to common sense. The letter from the Attorney General states that the view of the Comptroller and Auditor General is the common sense solution. The person charged with ensuring our money is spent correctly proffered a common sense solution. The letter also expressed regret at the time and money expended by campus on the issue, and that its highly paid advisers failed to display the Comptroller and Auditor General's lateral thinking. As Secretary General of the Department, is Mr. O'Mahony disappointed with the advice given by the consultants and has his Department learned lessons in terms of who to turn to for advice? The advisers were paid an extraordinary amount from the public purse to provide advice that was contrary to the common sense solution offered by an independent agency of the State. How is that circle squared?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

One always tries to learn lessons from experience. Strong as the wording of the 2004 letter from the Attorney General's office may be, it overturned its position on the issue in 2005. I cannot make that point strongly enough. If the Deputy is going to rely on the 2004 letter, he will have to acknowledge that the subsequent correspondence, which we will provide to him, indicates that the former was not the final considered position. I have determined from going through the papers that the advice from the Attorney General and the Comptroller and Auditor General was accepted and a decision was made not to pursue the matter. However, as I have explained, when it became clear at the beginning of 2005 that a court case would have to be pursued anyway, the officials at the Attorney General's office were the first people to point out that the issue needed to be reassessed.

Mr. O'Mahony stated that there would have to be a court case. When the case reached the steps of the Supreme Court the issue was yet again decoupled. Every other aspect of the case was settled and the VAT issue was the only one to proceed to a court hearing. As a layperson I do not understand why the VAT issue had to be thrown in with the other issues. I do not know anything about the operation of Dublin Waterworld and it is not my concern whether it was a good or bad tenant. Perhaps Mr. O'Mahony can clarify the VAT issue.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

That was the legal advice the Department and campus received.

Was that advice from the Attorney General?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

It was from the legal advisers to campus. The Attorney General suggested that the legal advisers to campus needed to look at the issue. They advised that it would need to be taken into account and the Attorney General's office gave instructions based on that advice. It was at least as significant that the Department of Finance, having consulted with the Revenue Commissioners, advised that it must be included because the liability could not be ignored.

In regard to how advice from the Attorney General is viewed, who requested the advice given on 17 November 2004? Was it the then Secretary General or the Minister?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

It would have been requested by the Department. The letter can be traced to an official who was then in the Department. I have investigated the files but I do not have personal knowledge of the chronology. The paperwork shows that the Department sought the advice from the Attorney General.

I acknowledge that Mr. O'Mahony was not in situ at the time and, as such, may not have been party to the conversations that must have taken place in the corridors of power over a period of several years. If I was a Minister or Accounting Officer and I received a letter from the Government’s legal adviser to the effect that I should accept the common sense solution and, in effect, tell my highly paid advisers to cop on and examine the issue more laterally because they are wasting taxpayers’ money, I would take the matter seriously. What happened after the Department received the letter? In 2005 it received another letter about which I knew nothing until now. The original letter was dated 17 November 2004. What happened in the intervening period? Presumably when a letter arrives from the Attorney General advising against legal action, it is taken seriously.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

The Deputy is correct. The Attorney General's advice was accepted at the time.

Why did it change?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

It became apparent that a court case would be pursued over various issues relating to the lease. The VAT was an element of the lease and the Attorney General's office, in the course of other advice about the case as a whole, indicated that the issue should be revisited in this context. I am paraphrasing the language used but that was the effect of the advice. It was revisited by legal advisers in 2005, when the claim was being prepared for the court case. In case there is any impression that the advice of the Comptroller and Auditor General or the Attorney General was ignored, their advice was accepted at the time.

It changed, however.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

It changed when the circumstances changed because there was now a court case and the VAT was connected to the lease. The question arose as to whether the position of not pursuing the case on common sense grounds could be maintained if a court case was going to be pursued over the terms of the lease. The matter was, in effect, back to square one.

Correspondence from McCann Fitzgerald appears to suggest that the reason for this was that the case would be heard in the Commercial Court because the value of the lease exceeded €1 million. The correspondence stated that the dispute over the VAT issue was likely to fall within the terms of the arbitration clause in the lease but, despite this, advised that it was worth including in any proceedings because the amount exceeded the threshold of €1 million. The Department's legal advice was that the issue was likely to go back to arbitration, which is what happened. The purpose for adding it on was simply to have the case heard in the Commercial Court. That relates to the Attorney General's advice on establishing whether the VAT issue ought to be included. Was it merely a speeding up mechanism rather than a point of legal principle?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

That is not clear to me from reading the papers. Anything I say to the committee can only be based on what I can assess from reading the papers. The Deputy may be right but I cannot say that with certainty.

Mr. O'Mahony advised me that it had to be done because of obligations but now he is not sure.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

No, we were told that, having raised the VAT liability in the first place, it was not legally open to campus to ignore it. We were told by the Department of Finance after consulting the Revenue Commissioners that it would have to be included in the claim.

In regard to correspondence between campus or the Department and the Valuation Office, how does the advice received from the latter tally with the advice of the highly paid consultants?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

The Department did not have any engagement with the Valuation Office.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

I ask Mr. Morgan to respond as he is familiar with that aspect.

Mr. Donagh Morgan

Campus sought the valuation from the Valuation Office.

Did the Department proceed on the valuation it provided in respect of the VAT issue?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

My recollection is that campus did so.

At this stage, I have progressed this issue as far as I can but we need to see much more in the documents that need to be circulated.

I refer to the other issue that should not be overlooked relating to the sports capital programme. I am not sure who is in charge of basketball hoops and I did not think the committee would discuss them but there seems to be an underlying problem.

I remind members to turn off their mobile telephones because there is interference.

This refers to the sports capital programme under which Basketball Ireland was provided with grants to roll out basketball hoops in communities around the country. It is mentioned in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report and Mr. O'Mahony will be familiar with this. Over seven years, funds allocated to Basketball Ireland, according to the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, were misappropriated and not used for the purpose for which the grants were awarded. The sports capital programme grants have been hugely beneficial to many communities. It is important that the taxpayer can have confidence that the money allocated is used for the stated purpose, particularly when money is limited. Will Mr. O'Mahony comment on that issue?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Yes. The first thing to be stressed - and, in fairness, the Comptroller and Auditor General's report shows this - is that the Department found this. The Department has an inspection programme. Obviously, it has to be done on a selective basis; it is not possible to go out and do inspections with regard to every single grant that has been given, particularly with the very large number that would have been done. The Department's inspection programme identified a difficulty with the grants that had been given to this organisation. The Accounting Officer asked the internal audit unit to investigate and it emerged from that investigation that there were extremely serious issues. I ask the Deputy to appreciate that I will choose some of my words quite carefully here because, quite apart from the fact that there is an internal audit process to the finalised, material has also been referred to the Garda-----

I appreciate that.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

-----and I do not want to say anything that might prejudice any inquiries that the Garda might make.

The experience in this case highlighted the need to re-examine the procedures that the Department had in place and I suppose from the committee's point of view, this may be the most important thing. It was the practice that invoices were accepted as being evidence that the grants had been used for the purpose for which they had been given. We would not have expected that invoices might be submitted on an incorrect basis. What has now been introduced is a process under which not only do invoices have to be submitted but bank statements also have to be submitted showing the payments that are linked to the invoices so that it is no longer possible for inappropriate use to be made of invoices as is suggested may have happened in certain cases.

There is a balance to be found in relation to sports capital grants. Members of the committee will all be familiar with the groups, voluntary associations, clubs, community centres and so on in their areas and they will know that a huge amount of activity takes place and a huge number of facilities are provided where the biggest input is the voluntary effort of the people on the ground. They are not always people who have huge experience in dealing with paperwork, Government agencies and so on. I was struck by a phrase the Chairman used when he spoke at the IPA conference last month.

Only one?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

I was struck by quite a few of them as I am sure I was intended to be but one I particularly like - if I can compliment the Chairman on it - is that he urged us in dealing with the public not to reach for the rule book to the point of suffocation. I thought that was a very good phrase because that is actually the danger in terms of things like the sports capital grants where one may be giving out a large a number of grants, many of which are relatively small, to small clubs. If one covers it with so much bureaucracy and form filling, nothing will happen. The group will walk away and say this thing is too much bother for the effort. There is, therefore, a balance we have to find. On the one hand, if people perceive that there are no checks and they can get away with anything, then I will be here explaining all sorts of irregularities and, obviously, we cannot have that. We are trying to find a balance with spot checks, light touch regulation but not no regulation. We are trying to find a balance so that all this activity will happen but we can ensure, as much as possible, that funds are not misappropriated. That is as much as I can say.

I thank Mr. O'Mahony.

I welcome Mr. O'Mahony and his colleagues. Does CSID have to pay VAT?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

CSID no longer exists. Legislation was put in place in 2006 setting up the National Sports Campus Development Authority, which succeeded CSID but which took all its responsibilities on board. CSID no longer exists. There is now a national authority.

Were CSID and its successor deemed to be VAT exempt?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

The authority was not; CSID was. When it was established, it set about establishing itself as a VAT paying entity, approached the Revenue Commissioners to do that and, after some discussions, Revenue agreed that it would be a company that would pay VAT.

Did the Supreme Court deem that it was not an entity that would pay VAT? I want to get this clear in my head. Did the Supreme Court decision mean that VAT could not be reclaimed on the building costs incurred in respect of the national aquatic centre?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

The Supreme Court judgment stated that VAT should not have been applied to the lease on the aquatic centre between CSID and Dublin Waterworld.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Because of the way in which it was calculated.

When the aquatic centre was originally set up, the costings and business plan were drawn up on the basis that the VAT could be reclaimed.

Mr. Donagh Morgan

That is correct.

Was VAT ever reclaimed on the building costs?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

Yes, but it was claimed as a credit because CSID would have owed the Revenue the VAT on the lease of the aquatic centre.

As a result of the Supreme Court decision, is CSID entitled to reclaim the VAT on the building costs?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

Yes.

The result of the decision was that CSID was not entitled to charge VAT on the lease and, by implication, reclaim VAT on the purchase of the building.

Mr. Donagh Morgan

The VAT charge was through the EVT mechanism we talked about earlier. That mechanism was agreed with Revenue as the mechanism to apply-----

I understand that. This is a simple question. First, the project was set up on the basis that VAT could be reclaimed and I assume that had a huge bearing as to whether it would work. Following the Supreme Court decision, am I correct in saying VAT could not be reclaimed on the building cost of the aquatic centre?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

I cannot say that to the Deputy because I have only been dealing with the VAT on the lease. I would need to get advice on that.

This is obviously a very important point. Does the Comptroller and Auditor General have a view on that? Has this point been considered? Is there a link between being able to charge VAT on a lease and being able to reclaim VAT on the building cost? The VAT on the purchase of the building was just under €10 million and the VAT charged on the lease was just over €10 million. The amounts are very similar.

Mr. John Buckley

No, the effect in the accounts was to absorb the VAT costs in the 2010 statements of campus-----

Was the VAT element of the purchase cost absorbed back?

Mr. John Buckley

Into the costs of the-----

That would clearly indicate that a ruling was given that VAT could not be reclaimed on the purchase cost, which was different from the original intention. That is a critical point.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

While it is an important point, it is Exchequer neutral, if one likes, in the sense that the VAT payment goes into the Exchequer.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

The Exchequer gives the Department the money to give to CSID for the VAT payments. So there is not a loss to the Exchequer or the taxpayer.

With due respect there is. At the set-up time a project might be deemed to be viable on the basis that VAT can be reclaimed, but if that project proceeds, the VAT then cannot be reclaimed. The Department is subsidising that to the tune of €1 million a year at the moment. Is that correct?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

Yes.

There is a significant cost to the Exchequer with a project that proceeded and is now losing the Exchequer €1 million a year. How did the project of such a large scale come to the fore? Was it a political decision?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

All decisions on major capital programmes or capital programmes of any size are of course Government decisions. So it was a Government decision.

Did this emanate from the Taoiseach at the time, who was Bertie Ahern, the Minister for Finance, Mr. Charlie McCreevy, and the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation, Dr. James McDaid? The viability of this project was very much based on the aspect of being able to reclaim VAT to the tune of €10 million. Outside the cost to the Exchequer and as a standalone business project, the ability to reclaim €10 million has an enormous impact.

We have been given copies of a report from the Valuation Office, showing the open-market value. Am I correct that under VAT legislation when the project was established in 2000, VAT would have been automatically charged on any lease that would have been granted? I understand there was a change in legislation in approximately 2002 to the effect that if the open market value - which I assume would be based on discounted cash flows and bringing it back to a capital value - was greater than the building cost, then VAT was chargeable but if the open-market value was less than the building cost, no VAT was chargeable. The Valuation Office report puts the open-market value at €35 million and the building cost was of the order of €74 million.

This was a political project and clearly was greatly dependent on being able to reclaim VAT. I find it difficult to understand how the same Government introduced a change in legislation that effectively gave rise to the Supreme Court taking the view that the Valuation Office report given to the CSID was effectively the one that should have been relied upon. I would like someone to give me the thinking at the time this change of legislation came through. The Department now finds itself with overhanging legal costs from the court cases. Sports Campus Ireland - if I use the general term - was not able to reclaim the VAT, which clearly is incorporated in the accounts. How was legislation introduced in 2002 that compromised the financial viability of Sports Campus Ireland and in particular the pool project? What was the thinking at the time? What communication took place with the advisers within CSID and the Department? We are aware of the communication from the Office of the Attorney General in late 2004 but we do not have anything in 2005.

We should not need to be here today. If the legislation was kept as it was or specifically exempted Sports Campus Ireland, we would not be having this discussion. CSID would have invoiced the provider of the services - the lessee - which would have reclaimed the VAT. The Department would have paid over the VAT and would have been able to reclaim the VAT on the building itself.

This seems incomplete. We are investigating something that probably should never have happened. From early 2002 the Department would have been charging VAT in the normal way. We have something here from 2002 and now nine years later we have unknown legal fees and a pool that is leaking €1 million a year. This was the "Bertie bowl" which has now turned into something that is haemorrhaging money for the taxpayer. Something happened there. How did legislation come in that compromised the financial set-up of the project from day 1? I ask the witnesses to give me a view on that period, which appears to be incomplete from my perspective. I do not have a complete view on this and I would like an explanation of what happened in 2002 when the change of legislation came in affecting the ability to reclaim the VAT on the purchase cost.

From the point of view of this committee it is not always about looking at the Exchequer. We must also look at projects. This is a standalone project that was costed at the time based on being able to reclaim VAT and then was put in the position whereby that was no longer possible. Based on the Valuation Office's report commissioned by CSID, it would appear that the VAT should not be charged and the Supreme Court decision seven or eight years later basically appears to have agreed with that point. What happened with regard to VAT in the legislation at the time?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

I cannot tell the Deputy anything about the thinking behind the VAT legislation changes in 2002. It is an issue that would have been dealt with by the Department of Finance. I can seek to find out whether advance consultation took place with other Departments on its implications. Generally, because of budget confidentiality issues, there is no detailed consultation on tax measures with other Departments with regard to the potential implications that may occur.

The witnesses before the committee today include officials from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. This committee wants to find out exactly what happened. It appears something happened in 2002 that changed the goalposts on whether VAT could be charged.

Let us put the same question to the officials from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

Mr. Brendan Ellison

I am not an expert on VAT but I spoke to my VAT colleagues prior to this meeting. I was not aware the change in 2002 had any impact on this case but I will check whether this was the case. My understanding is that-----

My understanding is that prior to 2002 Mr. Morgan would have been informed the entity was liable for VAT when it was established, I presume in 2002.

Mr. Donagh Morgan

Yes.

An entity liable for VAT is required to charge VAT on a lease. In layman's terms, one examines the capital value of a lease and discounted cash flows going into future years, and our understanding is that if this is less than the cost of the building itself VAT is not charged and if it is, more VAT is charged. The goalposts changed and this had huge implications for the National Aquatic Centre and the National Sports Campus Development Authority.

Mr. Brendan Ellison

I can check on this. The only thing I have been told is that because of a change due to the Supreme Court's judgment, Revenue's interpretation of regulation 19 was incorrect. I do not know whether regulation 19 is the same issue as that to which the Deputy referred with regard to the 2002 legislation but I can check this out.

This is the kernel of the case. We are watching the man rather than the ball. The ball appears to have been kicked into the goalposts in 2002, and not in 2010 with the Supreme Court decision which was based on a report issued by the Valuation Office in October 2002. To be fair to all parties concerned it is important that we get clarification. Do the witnesses understand?

Perhaps we will get clarification from the Department of Finance and from Revenue. I suggest that we do not close off this matter and that we invite the National Sports Campus Development Authority before the committee and perhaps witnesses from Revenue who will be able to assist us directly on the understanding of the question the Deputy is asking. If the Deputy wishes to continue we will return to this aspect.

Yes. I think everyone understands from where I am coming.

Based on what the Comptroller and Auditor General has told us, an extra €10 million was incurred by the National Aquatic Centre in the building costs of the project although we have been told the VAT which would have returned to the Exchequer would have come out of the same pool.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Yes.

This is clearly from the project itself and has put the project under pressure in terms of finances. Has the cost to the taxpayer been estimated of legal and professional fees with regard to the VAT situation which arose in 2002 to date?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

I know our legal fees are approximately €240,000. The legal fees we are obliged to pay to Dublin Waterworld Limited will be subject to taxing. I understand a claim was received recently and I do not think it would be appropriate for me to state a figure here, except to state as I did earlier that we are not speaking about millions. I must stress that these costs are not the costs of the case going to the Supreme Court; they include costs from the High Court, arbitration and the Supreme Court.

Were additional fees incurred over and above the retainer fee paid with regard to this issue?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

We can check that. I do not want to say "No" and then find out there was something but I do not expect so.

Paragraph 31.24 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report states, "Following consideration of the implications of the Supreme Court judgement, and having taken further advice on the matter, the Authority decided in July 2010 to withdraw from the arbitration process". What further advice came to the fore at that time?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Two issues arise. The first is the fact that the Supreme Court effectively overturned Revenue's interpretation and the second is that the Supreme Court ruling the way it did with regard to arbitration suggested it was likely that if the matter returned to arbitration the arbitration might be lost, and even if it were won the likelihood was that we would face further appeals. The difference between the situation in 2009 and 2005 was that the ruling on the VAT issue removed the mandatory nature of the National Sports Campus Development Authority having to pursue it. As I explained earlier-----

What do you mean by the ruling in 2009?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

The Supreme Court judgment-----

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

I beg your pardon. I apologise. Yes, in 2010. The Supreme Court judgment in 2010 and its implications for the VAT liability changed the position. In 2005, as I stated, the campus authority was told by the Office of the Attorney General, Revenue and the Department of Finance that it was required to pursue the VAT. The Supreme Court judgment removed that requirement and the authority decided to withdraw from the arbitration process.

Did the Department seek further legal advice on foot of the ruling of the Supreme Court or was it taken on face value?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

The National Sports Campus Development Authority would have sought further legal advice.

It would have been the National Sports Campus Development Authority which sought that advice.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Yes and it would have then advised the Department of it.

At all stages in the process were the then Ministers and the Taoiseach at the time, Bertie Ahern, aware of the difficulties with the VAT issue and the legal case?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Yes. The decision to go to the High Court and the decision on what the case was to be about would have been put to the Minister and the Minister would have approved it. With regard to whether the Minister would have brought a memorandum to Government I do not know; I would say probably not, because it would have been the Minister's responsibility to deal with it. I can say the Minister would have been fully aware of this but I cannot say whether the Taoiseach was. I do not know.

I thank the Chairman. I also thank the witnesses for their contributions. I will revert to the point on VAT. I will summarise what I believe I have heard before asking one question. I will then move on to some of the issues concerning Basketball Ireland that were touched on by Deputy Harris.

I will risk summarising and missing out on much of the complexity, but the witnesses will correct me if I am wrong. Sports Campus Ireland acted in a particular way in accordance with advice it received. The advice then changed and Sports Campus Ireland acted in a different way. Is this a fair summary of what has been stated? It might be a bit simplistic.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

It is.

I just want to explore the matter.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Sports Campus Ireland was acting in a particular way and assumed VAT would be paid on which it would levy a claim. This approach ran into difficulties. The Attorney General and the Comptroller and Auditor General advised that it not be pursued. The position changed for a short period and this approach was not pursued. However, it changed again because of the High Court case and there was a return to the initial territory. There were two changes.

The High Court decision led to the first change.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

No, it was not the decision to go to the High Court. The first change was when the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Attorney General told Sports Campus Ireland that it would not make economic sense to pursue the approach further. Until that point, the approach was being pursued. The Department accepted this advice and, for what turned out to be a brief period, Sports Campus Ireland was not going to pursue it.

We have probably gone through the second change in detail. Once there was to be a High Court case about the lease, the issue needed to be revisited to determine whether it should be part of the case, as the VAT formed part of the lease. The advice was that it needed to be.

This is where my question arises. I wish to know from the committee clerk whether the briefing material we receive is shared. Are witnesses aware of some of the correspondence we have received?

The briefing from the Comptroller and Auditor General is the committee's internal briefing. There is a great deal of correspondence on this matter and some of it came from the other parties. Witnesses are probably generally aware of some of it.

What I cannot understand is why Mr. O'Mahony has not brought with him the second set of advice to which he referred so that he might provide it to the committee. In the documents before me, quote after quote states that advice given in a particular area was disregarded, but Mr. O'Mahony has stated that the Department received a second set of advice on foot of the High Court decision, which he clarified. Why did he not just supply the advice to the committee?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

The best answer I can give is that the committee and the Chairman are adopting a new way of doing business and it would not have been the practice previously - I have appeared at this committee several times - to bring a load of documentation. Normally, one would have circulated an opening statement and briefing material in advance. We are learning by experience as to what the requirements of this new committee are. I guarantee Deputy Donohoe that, whatever they may be, we will meet them. It is clear from what members have stated that they would have preferred us to provide a great deal of reference material for them to read. I can see the logic of this and it is what I will do in future. It was not done this time because the previous committee did not work that way and it was not what was sought of us. However, I see its benefit and I will do it in future.

I have no doubt of the Secretary General's bona fides in terms of the points he has made. Our bona fides are also clear, in that we are trying to establish what occurred, but so much of what is being put to us occurred in response to advice that we cannot see.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

I will put together a pack of all of the materials to which I have referred and furnish it to the secretariat so that it can be given to members. Although I have already received verbal clearance from the Attorney General's office, I will need to confirm it, as there is an issue with the release of legal information. From our conversations with the office, it will not be an issue.

Has any of the information in question been released under freedom of information, FOI, requests?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

A great deal of information was sought from the Department under FOI. The 2004 letter to which a number of Deputies have referred was released under FOI, but this was actually a mistake on the part of whoever did it, since advice from the Attorney General's office is specifically exempted from FOI requests. I do not know the circumstances under which it came to be released. It should not have been. Consequently, the situation from the committee's point of view has worsened, in that it only knows part of the story.

That was my point.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

I appreciate that. In the representations made to members, a considerable weight has been placed on the letter. In the pack I will supply, I will provide the committee with a letter from the person in the Attorney General's office who wrote the 2004 letter that specifically refers to how the original letter should not be taken out of context.

I want to see a document that will allow me to understand that the advice was superseded.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

We will provide a pack. In the past week or two I have needed to go through voluminous old material and have had many trawls of archived material to piece together this story. I will give the committee the benefit of my work in this regard because we have the chain of correspondence that will enable members to see how everything occurred.

That would be important, as we have received a weight of correspondence on this matter and we are anxious to ascertain exactly what occurred. It is important that we see the advice that allowed Sports Campus Ireland to act in a particular manner.

I will turn to the number of issues regarding Basketball Ireland to which Deputy Harris referred. I understand Mr. O'Mahony's point about a reluctance to comment on some of the material because it could be involved in a Garda-----

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

It has been referred to the Garda.

Has any audit work been done within the Department or Basketball Ireland on foot of these events?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Yes. It became apparent in 2008 that there was a problem and the problem was investigated. I will outline the chronology. Our inspection identified a problem. As one would expect, the first course of action taken was to contact the organisation, in that its chief executive was written to seeking an explanation and for full details of the expenditure from allocations and so on. Shortly afterwards, significant changes occurred at the top of the organisation and there was a new executive chairman. The Department asked the new executive chairman to inspect the accounts, which the chairman did. This identified that only a minority of the money given for basketball hoops was used for that purpose and that the rest of it had been used for other purposes to do with the promotion of basketball. I must stress that this was not a question of money being misappropriated for personal use. Rather, it was a question of money being used for basketball purposes other than those for which it was given.

In 2009, the Secretary General of what was then the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism asked his internal audit unit to investigate this matter.

What date was that? I missed it.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

December 2009. The then Department's internal audit unit was commissioned to draw up a report. A draft report was completed in 2010 and referred to the Garda Síochána. As the draft report could have had serious personal implications for at least one person named therein and for the directors of the organisation, a copy of it was given to them to comment on from the point of view of fair process. In March 2011, comments in regard to any understanding or commitments that might have been given by a former official of the Department were received. This meant the official concerned had to be brought back into the loop. We were trying to ensure every step of the way that the proper process was followed.

In the meantime, the then Department was merged into the new Department and its internal audit unit ceased to exist, which caused us a problem in terms of the draft internal audit report. I was concerned about the internal audit unit of my Department taking on that work and completing it without having knowledge of all that had gone before. I believed that was impossible and that it could leave the final report open to challenge in that the people drawing the conclusions would not have been involved in the original research. The issue was resolved by agreement between the two Departments, with the result that the new Department's internal unit will finalise the report with the assistance of the people who previously worked on the issue. We are trying to square off any problems.

When will the report be published?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

It will be given to the Department's internal audit committee in approximately three weeks time. The committee is due to meet on 6 December. The report will be considered by the committee at that meeting. It is not routine on our part to publish reports because it is not generally expected there would be much public interest in them. However, they can be made available and are often sought under the Freedom of Information Act, as undoubtedly this one will be.

We will need to be careful of its implications in terms of prejudicing a Garda inquiry. I expect the report to be complete and available after 6 December.

Has Basketball Ireland published or made available to the Department any report compiled by it in relation to what happened?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

The new executive chairman - this is going back a couple of years - was asked to investigate the matter and to report back on it.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Yes.

Does the report also make reference to the point on the capital grant for the National Basketball Arena?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Yes.

The report will refer to the general expenditure in respect of community basketball facilities and the issue in relation to the stadium.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

The report deals with all moneys paid to Basketball Ireland under the sports capital programme and so would include both. For the sake of completeness, members should be aware that approximately €500,000 which would have been due to Basketball Ireland is frozen subject to completion of this process.

That amount of money was to be made available to Basketball Ireland by the Department.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Yes.

It has not been made available.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

It is frozen. That is one of the sanctions available to us under the sports capital programme when we become aware of a problem.

Have any other sanctions been imposed?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

No, not at this stage.

On the provision of seating within the basketball arena, to which I refer when I talk about the company, my understanding is that what is being investigated is funding given to Basketball Ireland for the provision of seats within the stadium. It appears this funding had already been raised from another company. Am I correct in my understanding?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

The matter under investigation by the internal audit unit of the Department relates only to funding for the hoops. The matter of the arena, which as the Deputy said involves a separate company, has been funded by the Department but that has nothing to do with the investigation. My recollection is that the money that is frozen would probably have been provided towards the provision or updating of seating but I would have to check that.

Is that matter under investigation?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

In relation to the seating?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

No, there is no investigation in relation to the seating. The investigation is in respect of the money provided for the community hoops programme. For completeness, as a result of finding what we did, we looked at all of the grants given to Basketball Ireland down through the years. This forms part of the internal audit report.

I have a brief question. Have the witnesses read the commentary in regard to the qualifications of the valuer?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

I am aware that this was one of the issues raised by Dublin Waterworld. The Department's position on that would be that that is entirely a matter for the Valuation Office. Our understanding was that the Valuation Office stood over its official and the work he did. I cannot comment beyond that.

Was it material to the case in terms of the appearance of this valuer before the court in 2005? The person concerned declared he was a member of the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors, which would lead one to believe he had all the professional standing surrounding such membership. He appeared before the court in 2005. Is Mr. O'Mahony concerned that that happened?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

In the correspondence from the Attorney General's office, which I will make available to the committee, the advisory council makes the point that the Valuation Office is supporting its officer and his performance in this instance and any error or wrongdoing on his part is strongly denied. That is the comment of the Attorney General's office. I do not have anything further to add to that.

That is not the commentary from the institute of which he claims to be a member.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

I do not have that.

I understand that the institute has made it clear that he was not a member of that institute and should not have been using its letters indicating he was a member.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

I do not know about that.

Who might know whether this has any implications for the case?

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

The Valuation Office on behalf of whom he was carrying out the function.

We need to ask the Valuation Office.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Yes.

Who acted as VAT adviser with the Supreme Court?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

As far as I can recall the VAT adviser was from PricewaterhouseCoopers, which was the financial adviser all the way through.

We have received a great deal of information this morning and are to receive further information.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

Yes.

I did not realise I was departing from any standards set by any previous Committee of Public Accounts in terms of procedure.

It was meant as a compliment.

I understand but I want to explain. I am suggesting that whatever reference is made to documents, it would be helpful for members to have those documents so further questioning could be based on them.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

The Chairman is absolutely correct.

I am not making an issue of it in that sense. The intention is to return to this topic and include in our next meeting the National Sports Campus Development Authority and ask a representative from the Revenue Commissioners for an explanation with regard to Deputy O'Donnell's question and other matters relative to VAT. We will ask the Valuations Office to have somebody present to explain its view on the qualifications of the person concerned. We will set that date in due course with all the people concerned.

I suggest to the committee that we leave this open and return to the issue later. Is it agreed to dispose of Vote 35, tourism, culture and sport and Vote 30, sports capital programme, but keep the national sports campus programme open? Agreed. I thank the witnesses for attending.

The witnesses withdrew.

The committee adjourned at 12.50 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 17 November 2011.
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