COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 12 Jan 2012

Business of Committee

Mr. John Buckley (An tArd Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) called and examined.

Chairman

I will start by acknowledging the retirement of the Comptroller and Auditor General. He telephoned me yesterday and informed me of his plans. We wish him well. As the Comptroller and Auditor General will be with us until 23 February, we will wait for a better time and date to pay our formal tributes of respect. Mr. Buckley was very active in the Committee of Public Accounts during changing and turbulent times for our economy and gave great service to the committee. He has completed 45 years as a public servant, which is a long period of great service.

In the course of his long career, he contributed a great deal to the Committee of Public Accounts. He was involved as far back as the deposit interest retention tax, DIRT, inquiry. I acknowledge the significant work he has done in his capacity as Comptroller and Auditor General and the work he has done with the members of this and previous committees. With this committee, in particular, there are many new members and Mr. Buckley made it possible for them to fit neatly into their role. They have never been short of information and his office has always been available to each of them to bring them up to speed and make it possible for them to contribute to the best of their ability as the committee dealt with the various witnesses who have appeared before it.

This is just to acknowledge your recent announcement, but we will pay tribute in a more formal way in due course as you will be with us until 23 February.

Mr. John Buckley

Thank you, Chairman.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

I echo your sentiments, Chairman, and I wish Mr. Buckley well. He has made a huge contribution to the work of the Committee of Public Accounts, both at a technical level in terms of the reports and also in his insightful summaries when witnesses appear before the committee. He married the technical side, which is most important, with judgment and astute observations on the issues, and always operated in the public interest in terms of the public purse. He embodied what the Committee of Public Accounts is about, which is getting value for the taxpayers' money and accounting for each euro. He will be a loss to the office but I wish him well.

Mr. John Buckley

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Sean Fleming

I join my colleagues in wishing Mr. Buckley well. I hope he is not retiring but just moving to the next phase of his life. It was a pleasure working with him, but there will be a better opportunity between now and when he retires to say a little more. In addition to his technical ability, his personal way of relating to people was low key, easy, calm and very helpful on every occasion and on every issue that arose. One can say no more for anybody in his position.

Mr. John Buckley

I acknowledge the members' remarks. As I said to the Chairman earlier, after 45 years of commuting from Kildare, I think I have run out of road. For myself, my family and the office I considered the matter carefully and I believe I am making the best move, especially at this time given that the office will be obliged to have a revised strategy for reporting in terms of the Government's reform programme and rationalisation on a range of issues. In addition, there are new developments in public audit which will involve looking at how we can have joined-up audit with the local government audit service. I believe the person who leads those discussions in the next six months should be the person to lead this forward and deal with the matters as they arise, because I will not be around to do it. The time is right for the office, myself and generally for the wider interest of the State. I thank the members for their kind remarks.

Chairman

Thank you.

Are the minutes of the meetings of 13 and 15 December 2011 agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Sean Fleming

I will not delay the proceedings, Chairman, but at the last meeting you noted receipt of a letter from the National Asset Management Agency, NAMA, about the interest calculation. I missed the last meeting but the committee agreed to note and publish it. I will not get into a discussion on it now but perhaps you will allow me to comment on it next week. It is a very detailed letter and deals with a technical point. I believe we should discuss it for a few minutes but I will not delay this meeting.

Chairman

Do you wish to put it on the agenda for next week?

Deputy Sean Fleming

Yes, under correspondence.

Chairman

We will put it on the agenda.

Deputy Sean Fleming

Thank you.

Chairman

As there are no other matters arising we will proceed to No. 2, correspondence received since the meeting of Thursday, 15 December 2011.

We have correspondence dated 15 December 2011 from Mr. Martin Naughton, head of finance and administration in SIPTU, re Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme of the 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General. That correspondence is to be noted and published.

I refer to the correspondence from SIPTU which arose from our last meeting when we discussed the operation of the SIPTU national health and local authority levy fund. Arising from the evidence of the meeting on 15 December 2011, the clerk to the committee was obliged to write to SIPTU in effect under the right of reply provisions that apply to the Committee of Public Accounts under the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act.

Given the controversial nature of the operation of this levy fund account and the various uses to which public moneys were put, the committee will want answers. To that end, the request from SIPTU to attend the committee and help us with our examination of this issue is welcome. It was clear from the evidence given by the HSE staff that information they sought from SIPTU was not made available, which hindered the HSE in giving this committee a more comprehensive reply on how €4 million of taxpayers' money, which was put under the control of two trade union officials, was spent. Clearly, if we are to get to the bottom of this issue, we must have the full co-operation of SIPTU and this must happen before the committee can return to this issue.

I propose that we write to SIPTU, the Department and the HSE outlining the following actions that must be taken urgently. The HSE internal audit should be given full access to information contained in the bank statement for this unofficial account, to the credit card statements related to this account and to the Grant Thornton report into the examination of this unofficial SIPTU account.

In addition, the HSE and the Department of Health need to get to the bottom of what happened to two payments each for €150,000 dating from July 2001 and April 2002. We need to know whether a payment was made and if so, where the cheque ended up as it appears that both payments vanished into thin air.

The committee also wrote to Mr. Alan Smith, the retired official who had a central role in establishing the funding mechanism to SIPTU and who, as general manager of SKILL, travelled abroad extensively, and to Mr. Merrigan and Mr. Jack Kelly, who are the signatories to this unofficial account. We have not received any reply from these three individuals.

I propose we meet again on Thursday, 1 March to deal with this matter and all parties will be on notice from today of the need to co-operate fully to enable them to deal fully and comprehensively with the concerns of the committee and its work.

I wanted to place that information on the record and get the agreement of the committee to proceed in that way. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

Will the Chairman re-issue the letters to the three individuals who have not yet responded?

Chairman

We can send reminders if that is the wish of the committee-----

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

Yes.

Chairman

-----but we would encourage them to co-operate with the HSE. We would also encourage SIPTU and the others involved to ensure they co-operate and that the information in terms of the bank accounts and, in particular, the Grant Thornton report are part and parcel of our examination. They need to present that. We can deal with it on 1 March.

Correspondence dated 21 December 2011 received from Mr. Tom O'Mahony, Secretary General of the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, in response to correspondence forwarded by the committee from Mr. John Moriarty in regard to Dublin Waterworld, to be noted and published. We will revisit chapter 31, the National Sports Campus, on 16 February and any issues raised in this correspondence can be raised at that meeting. At the last meeting, we asked that the Revenue Commissioners and the other Departments not represented would be represented so we could get direct answers from each one. We were not able to do that at the last meeting. Will this correspondence from Mr. Tom O'Mahony be sent to Mr. John Moriarty?

Clerk to the Committee

Yes.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I wish to make a request in regard to this correspondence. In the opening paragraph, it states that the executive services team was paid €3 million. In regard to the testimony, there was a query by colleagues in regard to how much that group was paid. I would be grateful if we could ascertain from the testimony given what that figure was.

Chairman

We will ask the clerk to the committee to check it and provide the information before the meeting.

Correspondence dated 21 December 2011 received from Mr. Tom O'Mahony, Secretary General of the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, in regard to a response to correspondence forwarded by the committee from an anonymous source on the proposed merger of the Irish Sports Council and the National Sports Campus Development Authority, to be noted and published. Correspondence dated 21 December 2011 received from Mr. Tom O'Mahony, Secretary General of the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, in response to correspondence forwarded by the committee from Mr. John Kinsella in regard to the closure of the tourist office in Kilrane, Rosslare, to be noted. A copy of the response will be issued to Mr. Kinsella.

Correspondence dated 21 December 2011 received from Mr. Paul O'Toole, director general of FÁS, providing further information requested by the committee at its meeting of 1 December 2011, to be noted and published. Correspondence dated 21 December 2011 received from Mr. Paul Kenny, Pensions Ombudsman, in response to correspondence forwarded by the committee from Councillor Philip Cantwell in regard to Tara Mines disabled miners, to be noted and published. A copy of the response will issue to Mr. Cantwell.

Correspondence dated 21 December 2011 received from Ms Brigid McManus, Secretary General of the Department of Education and Skills, in response to correspondence forwarded by the committee from Mr. Rob Northall in regard to unanswered correspondence, to be noted. A copy of the correspondence will be forwarded to Mr. Northall. Correspondence dated 21 December 2011 received from Mr. John Corrigan, chief executive of the National Treasury Management Agency, providing further information requested by the committee at its meeting of 6 October 2011 in regard to savings negotiated under the lower interest on the EFSF and EFSM, to be noted and published.

Correspondence dated 27 December 2011 received from Mr. Peter Oakes, director of enforcement in the Central Bank of Ireland, on allegations made by the National Asset Management Agency, to be noted and published. A copy of the correspondence to issue to NAMA for information and to Deputy Michael McGrath who raised the issue in the committee of the 30th Dáil.

Correspondence dated 4 January 2012 received from Mr. Brendan McDonagh, chief executive of NAMA, in response to correspondence forwarded by the committee from Mr. Brian Flanagan in regard to NAMA's accounts, to be noted and published. A copy of the correspondence will issue to Mr. Flanagan.

Deputy Sean Fleming

I ask that be put on the agenda the next day. The interest on the NAMA loans comes under that topic.

Chairman

All right.

Correspondence received on 6 January 2012 from Mr. Kieran Coughlan, Clerk of the Dáil, briefing papers on the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission's annual report and financial statements 2010, to be noted and published. Correspondence dated 10 January 2012 received from Mr. John Buckley, Comptroller and Auditor General, on the consultation document on VEC rationalisation, to be noted and published. Deputy Deasy was particularly interested in that matter and perhaps we should return to it at the next meeting after we deal with Deputy Fleming's matters.

Correspondence dated 9 January 2012 received from Mr. Tony McDonnell and Mr. John Kidd of the Irish Fire and Emergency Services Association in regard to the Dublin fire brigade and ambulance services, to be noted and published. The correspondence will be forwarded to the HSE for a detailed analysis of the issues highlighted. When will the HSE be back before the committee so we can deal specifically with this?

Clerk to the Committee

It will be with us on 26 January but we will deal with this as part of its accounts later on. It is due before us after Easter as well.

Chairman

We should notify the Dublin fire brigade and ambulance service which has made various comments and ensure it is kept up to date with the information.

Clerk to the Committee

Okay.

Chairman

Correspondence received on 11 January 2011 from Mr. Kieran Coughlan, Clerk of the Dáil, in regard to his opening statement, to be noted and published. Correspondence received on 11 January 2012 from Mr. Kevin Cardiff, Secretary General of the Department of Finance, providing further information requested by the committee at its meeting of 3 November 2011 in regard to the €3.6 billion error in the national accounts, to be noted and published. We can defer consideration of this correspondence until next week if members have not had a chance to read it. It only came in today.

Reports, statements and accounts received since 15 December 2011 have been listed in the documentation circulated. Do members have anything to raise in regard those reports, statements and accounts? Perhaps they will notify the clerk to the committee if they want a particular one to be considered. We will note each one of them.

The work programme is to be noted. It is proposed that our meeting on 1 March will deal with the resumed session on the SIPTU national health and local authority fund account. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Anne Ferris

I refer to the work programme. I was going to raise this under correspondence sent rather than correspondence received. The Chairman will recall that I wrote to this committee on 19 July in regard to land in Greystones, County Wicklow, and the fact that last year, Wicklow County Council paid €3 million for this land which is worth less than €0.5 million. The Chairman subsequently wrote to the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government on 22 July and to the Secretary General of the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government.

I am astonished that we have not received an acknowledgement or a reply from the Minister to that correspondence dated 22 July. I noted in the media yesterday that the Attorney General has appointed senior counsel to examine this issue. The Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government will be before the committee on 15 March and I would like this issue to be raised during that session. Will the Chairman write again to the Minister to seek clarification because he has referred this to the Attorney General? I know he referred it to the Attorney General but we only learned that through the media. He did not come back to the committee on the issue. The Chairman should write again to the committee on behalf of the Minister seeking an update on what is going on, and perhaps the reasons the matter was referred to the Attorney General.

Deputy Simon Harris

I fully agree with Deputy Ferris who has raised this issue on a number of occasions at the committee. It was most disappointing that we had to read of the development in the media yesterday when Deputy Ferris and I had sought information at the committee. In an effort to somewhat rectify the error the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government should be asked to provide an update to the committee as quickly as possible.

Chairman

First, l am pleased both Deputies Ferris and Harris have raised the matter this morning. In its normal way of doing business the committee referred the matter to the Department concerned and sought a reply. It is indicative of how different Departments treat the Committee of Public Accounts. When letters are received by any Department or agency they should give it priority because we are looking after public accounts and taxpayers' money. The least people deserve is that the bodies would promptly reply and inform us first of what action has been taken because it was in the committee that the matter was raised. I agree with the comments of the Deputies. We will ask the clerk to notify the Department immediately following today's meeting of our concerns and the fact that we are disappointed that we were not informed first and foremost because we had written to it last July. The timeline involved is typical of Departments not just now but previously as well. We will send a reminder.

Deputy Anne Ferris

I do not know whether it is possible given the agreed work programme but perhaps we could bring that particular session forward to February because it is scheduled for 15 March. It is a matter of great concern and interest to the people of County Wicklow.

Chairman

I accept that. We will look at the issue as part of our work programme but we could also ask the Accounting Officer to deal with this specific item in terms of the opening remarks and opening statement. That does not get away from the fact that we also need to deal with the timespan involved in all of these requests that are being made to various Departments and agencies. Perhaps a new Comptroller and Auditor General will be appointed. We will need to set out particular protocols with Departments. It may be an opportunity for us to review how Departments deal with the committee and the protocols that are in place or not in place as the case may be. It will be an opportunity for us to discuss all of that, how we do our work and how we can achieve greater efficiencies.

Deputy Anne Ferris

I agree with the Chairman. Even at the end of his letter the Chairman said he looked forward to an early response to the issues outlined. The letter was written on 22 July. It is totally disrespectful to the committee that various Departments, both in the past as the Chairman said, and currently, are treating the committee this way.

Deputy Simon Harris

Just on the point of the Chairman's contact with the Department, perhaps he could get what seems to be the third secret of Fatima in regard to the terms of reference of the investigation that we read about in the media and who is the anonymous senior counsel that has been appointed to carry out the investigation. If either the Attorney General or the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government are conducting an investigation into the Department and how it interacted with Wicklow County Council it seems bizarre that we cannot get a copy of the terms of reference of the investigation, when it is due to be concluded and who is carrying it out. They are the three specifics.

Chairman

No. 5 on the agenda is any other business. Do Members have any other issues to raise?

Deputy Simon Harris

When the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform appeared before the committee, which was a useful exchange of ideas, the Chairman raised the possibility of representatives of the Croke Park implementation group attending a meeting of the committee. The Minister was unsure as to whether that was possible. In light of a number of parliamentary questions to which I received responses in recent days there are many issues on which the committee could benefit from questionning the group. Has the Chairman had an opportunity to pursue the issue or has he heard back from the Minister? If not, perhaps we would consider writing to the Croke Park implementation group to see whether it would address the committee.

Chairman

We can do that arising from the meeting with the Minister and from Deputy Harris's request today. At that meeting the Minister did suggest an input from the committee on the implementation body. We will look back at what was said on the day and write to the Minister reminding him of what he said.

Deputy Simon Harris

Thank you.

Chairman

We could also perhaps write to the implementation body and invite the members to attend. That is entirely appropriate given its role.

Deputy Simon Harris

Thank you.

Chairman

Could we agree the agenda for 19 January, which is the annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and appropriation accounts, chapter 32 , Financial Control in the Irish Red Cross (Resumed). Is that agreed? Agreed.

Following our meeting today we might issue a press release indicating the work programme of the committee for 2012. I am outlining what is an indicative work programme at the moment which may change slightly in the course of things.

Deputy Sean Fleming

There should be acknowledgment of the retirement of the Comptroller and Auditor General. We have said it but I would like it to be on the public record.