COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 23 May 2013

Business of Committee

Chairman

Item No.1 is the minutes of the meeting of 16 May 2013. Are the minutes agreed to? Agreed. The committee needs to dispose of Vote 20 and Chapter 26 which were the subject of last week's meeting. Is that agreed? Agreed.

We will now deal with correspondence received since the meeting of Thursday, 16 May. Item No. 3A is correspondence received from Accounting Officers. Item No 3A.1 is correspondence, dated 15 May 2013, from Mr. Aidan Dunning, Secretary General, Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, providing additional information requested at our meeting on 18 April. The correspondence is to be noted and published.

Item No. 3A.2 is correspondence, dated 22 May 2013, from Ms Josephine Feehily, chairperson of the Revenue Commissioners, providing additional information requested at our meeting on 9 May 2013. The correspondence is to be noted and published. It relates to the rate of corporation tax, an issue members may want to consider.

Item 3B is individual correspondence. Item No. 3B.1 is correspondence, dated 13 May 2013, from Sean Ó Foghlú, Secretary General, Department of Education and Skills, on the cost of VEC legal services and procurement. The correspondence is to be noted and published.

This correspondence raises a number of issues about the procurement without competitive tender of legal services by VECs and the broad issue can be raised today with the National Procurement Service.

No. 3B.2 is correspondence dated 13 May 2013 from Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú, Secretary General of the Department of Education and Skills, re information previously requested regarding apprenticeship training provision in the Institute of Technology, Blanchardstown. That is to be noted and a copy forwarded to Mr. Brady, the original complainant.

No. 3B.3 is correspondence dated 16 May 2013 from Ms Clare McGrath, chairperson of the Office of Public Works. It provided information previously requested regarding the cost of the provision of a suite of offices for a Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment in 2007. That is to be noted and published. Members sought this correspondence at a previous meeting.

No. 3B.4 is correspondence dated 15 May 2013 from Ms Brenda Farrell re a new school building for a gaelscoil in Arklow. That is to be noted and forwarded to the Department of Education and Skills for a note on the issues raised.

No. 3B.5 is correspondence dated 16 May 2013 from Mr. John Murphy, Secretary General of the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, re the cost of offices for a Minister of State in 2007. That is to be noted and published. This correspondence should be considered alongside No. 3B.3.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

I wish to comment on those two pieces of correspondence. I will only have an opportunity to look at them now for the first time. I am trying to recall what we agreed we would do with them when we requested it. Will there be a meeting to discuss it?

Chairman

No, we agreed at a previous meeting that we would ask for the information. It relates to an expenditure in 2007 and 2008. It was dealt with by the Comptroller and Auditor General and the committee at that stage. Due to the fact that the matter was dealt with, I suggested we ask for the appropriate papers on the cost. Those papers have now been forwarded to us by the two Departments and it is up to members to raise the issue if they wish with the OPW.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

We now have all the appropriate papers. They will be published.

Chairman

Yes, they have been published.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

A delegation from the OPW will appear before the committee today. Is this the meeting at which the matter will be discussed?

Chairman

Yes, that is what we agreed.

Deputy Simon Harris

I have a small addendum. I looked at the report of the recent meeting. The Chairman correctly said that once we garnered all information members could make a decision about what they wanted to do with it, including the possibility of calling in the Secretary General of the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. Can we proceed with the meeting today on all issues relating to the OPW, including this correspondence, and, arising from that, see if we need the Secretary General of the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation to answer any additional questions?

Chairman

That is agreed.

No. 3B.6 is correspondence dated 22 May 2013 from Professor Niamh Brennan, former chairperson of the Dublin Docklands Development Authority, DDDA, re the examination of special report No. 77 of the Comptroller and Auditor General on the DDDA. That is to be noted and published. Professor Brennan has suggested her evidence should be taken after the committee takes evidence from those centrally involved in the acquisition of the Irish Glass Bottle site. This is an acceptable way to conduct our examination and I suggest we agree to her request. Is that agreed?

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

On that point, have we received responses from the other witnesses we contacted in regard to this?

Chairman

Mr. Bradshaw has agreed to attend the meeting. We will agree that date with him. He has asked that we share our papers with him, and I think we should agree to do so.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

Absolutely.

Deputy Gerald Nash

I assume the meeting will be held in public session.

Chairman

Yes, it is under the work programme. Likewise, Professor Brennan has agreed to a meeting. It is just a matter of sequencing meetings and ensuring everyone is prepared. We will set the date in accordance with our work programme.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

On the letter, I am interested in a comment made by Professor Brennan. We should acknowledge she has said she will appear before the committee, which is to be welcomed. She said it may well also be that the committee may well wish to consider whether it wishes to hear from other persons holding executive or board positions in addition to Mr. Bradshaw and Mr. Moloney on those matters.

Chairman

We have invited others to attend. Mr. Bradshaw was the only person to respond.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

Okay.

Chairman

The Deputy may remember that at a previous meeting he named the individuals he would like to come before us. We then wrote to them and Mr. Bradshaw was the only one who responded. We are awaiting a response from the others.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I thank the Chairman.

Chairman

I am reminded that in our last discussion on this matter we named some individuals who we would like to come before the committee. Perhaps we should write to the full board. That means no one would be singled out and the board itself would be asked to come before us. That may change people's views.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I should make the point, given that I was one of those who made the request, that the only reason I named the individuals concerned was because they arose in the course of our questioning in previous committee meetings. It is a fair point to state that we should invite in all of those who had the ability to be involved. We are trying to be fair to all involved so that everybody has the opportunity to contribute to their understanding of events.

Chairman

If we can formally agree that now, the clerk can write to those who have not been written to, and maybe inform those who have been written to that all of the board is being invited to come before the committee. That is probably the best way of dealing with the matter. Is it agreed that the clerk do that? Agreed.

Is No. 3B.6 in regard to how we sequence the meetings relevant to Professor Brennan's request agreed? Agreed.

No. 3B.7 is correspondence dated 22 May 2013 from Ms Clare McGrath, chairperson of the OPW, about information previously requested regarding cost of the provision of a suite of offices for a Minister of State in the Department of Enterprise Trade and Employment in 2007. That is to be noted and published.

We have documents relating to today's committee meeting. No. 3C.1 is correspondence dated 22 May 2013 from Ms Clare McGrath, chairperson of the OPW, briefing papers and matters to be considered at the meeting on 23 May 2013. That is to be noted and published.

No. 3C.2 is correspondence received on 22 May 2013 from Miss Clare McGrath, chairperson of the OPW, opening statement. That is to be noted and published.

The next item is reports, statements and accounts received since our meeting of 16 May. Number 4.1 is the National Library of Ireland annual report 2011, clean audit opinion.

No. 5 is our work programme. It is now on the screen. It was agreed to schedule the Financial Regulator on 13 June, as discussed last week. This will mean that we will reschedule the Department of Social Protection to 11 July.

We will now meet Mr. Bradshaw, former chairperson of the DDDA on Wednesday, 26 June at 3 p.m. On that issue, the committee received correspondence from the DDDA yesterday evening and this will be circulated today. This correspondence will also be circulated to Mr. Bradshaw in connection with his forthcoming appearance, given his request which was agreed last week. That refers to our papers and we will make them available to Mr. Bradshaw. I ask members to note the date is Wednesday at 3 p.m. Will we meet on Thursday of that week?

Clerk to the Committee

Yes. The meeting was already scheduled but Mr. Bradshaw was not able to come in on that date.

Chairman

We will meet again on Thursday of that week. We will deal with the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government.

Do members have any other business in regard to No. 6? We have to agree our agenda for Thursday, 6 June 2013 at 10 a.m. We will meet the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. The agenda for the meeting will consist of the 2011 appropriation accounts and annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, Vote 7 - superannuation retired allowances, Vote 42 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Chapter 6 - financial commitments under public private partnerships, Chapter 12 - vote accounting and Chapter 13 - procurement without a competitive process. Is that agreed? Agreed.

We will now ask the witnesses to attend.