Skip to main content
Normal View

COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 27 Jun 2013

2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts

Vote 25 - Environment, Community and Local Government
Chapter 27 - Environmental Fund Levies
Environment Fund 2011
Local Government Fund 2011
Environmental Protection Agency Financial Statements 2011
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of the National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
Ms Geraldine Tallon(Secretary General, Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government) and Ms Laura Burke (Director General, Environmental Protection Agency) called and examined.

Before we begin our meeting, I remind members, witnesses and people in the Public Gallery to turn off their mobile phones as they interfere with the sound quality of the transmission of the proceedings.

I advise witnesses that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give the committee. If they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence.

They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the provision within Standing Order 163 that the committee should refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits or the objectives of such policy or policies.

I welcome Ms Geraldine Tallon, Secretary General, Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government and invite her to introduce her officials.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I am accompanied by Mr. Maurice Coughlan, finance officer, Mr. Michael Layde, housing division, Mr. Colm Lavery, local government division, and Mr. Ronan Mulhall, environment division.

I welcome Ms Laura Burke, Director General, Environmental Protection Agency and ask her to introduce her officials.

Ms Laura Burke

I am accompanied by Mr. Dara Lynott, deputy director general, Mr. Dan Harney, finance manager, and Mr. Gerard O'Leary, director, Office of Environmental Enforcement.

I also welcome the officials from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and ask them to introduce themselves.

Ms Marie McLaughlin

I am Ms Marie McLaughlin, Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, and I am accompanied by Mr. Nelius Lynch.

I invite Mr. Seamus McCarthy, the Comptroller and Auditor General, to introduce the accounts.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The 2011 Appropriation Account for Vote 25 reflects the transfer in May 2011 to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government of responsibility for supporting communities and rural development. Responsibility for heritage matters also transferred from the Department to the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht in May 2011.

The Department had gross expenditure of €1.6 billion in 2011. The most significant reductions year-on-year related to spending on social housing provision and support which fell by €291 million, or 37%, and spending on the water services investment programme which fell by €66 million or 13%. The payment from the Vote to the local government fund fell by €66 million or 28%, relative to 2010.

The local government fund has been in operation since 1999 and it had income of €1.19 billion in 2011. The most significant sources of income in the year for the fund was motor taxation income of €1 billion and Exchequer funding from Vote 25 of €175 million. Expenditure in the year was €1.15 billion.

Payments from the fund included just under €400 million to assist local authorities in meeting costs associated with a programme of works on regional and local roads. The other main area of expenditure on the fund in 2011 was payments of general subventions to local authorities amounting to €700 million, as a contribution toward funding of other activities.

The environment fund accounts for 2011 are also before the committee today. The fund was established in 2001. The resources of the fund are mainly used to finance waste management initiatives, environmental enforcement measures and research in the environmental area. Income of the fund in 2011 amounted to €62.6 million. The main sources of income were receipts of €46 million from the environmental levy on the landfill of waste and €16 million from the plastic bag levy.

Chapter 27 presents the results of a review of the arrangements for collecting the landfill and plastic bag levies. It also considers the processes in place to detect and deter non-compliance.

The plastic bag levy was introduced in 2002. Up to the end of 2011, €182 million had been collected. The Department has overall responsibility for the levy. The Revenue Commissioners were assigned responsibility for collection and enforcement. Local authorities also have an enforcement role.

The levy is collected from individual consumers by retailers when they supply certain plastic bags. A key aspect of maximising compliance is ensuring that all those who supply plastic bags are registered. A 2008 random review by Revenue of 215 retail stores found that one in five of the retailers surveyed should have been registered but were not. Further such reviews have not been carried out.

Revenue completed 70 audits of registered retailers in the five years to 2011, resulting in an additional €2 million being collected from just over two thirds of those cases. A court appeal by a large multiple retailer against a Revenue assessment of a plastic bag levy liability of €36 million has been ongoing for a number of years.

The results of inspections undertaken by local authorities are not collated centrally. This makes it difficult to assess the adequacy of the inspection programme and the overall level of compliance.

The examination also found that Revenue and the local authorities do not share the results of the compliance work that each undertake. Sharing of information would facilitate a more focused national inspection strategy. This should help maximise compliance but there may be data protection issues to be resolved.

The landfill levy was also introduced in 2002. By end 2011, around €321 million had been collected. The Department is responsible for the administration of the levy with the local authorities having responsibility for its collection. The levy is payable in respect of waste disposed of at landfill sites whether the site is operated privately or by a local authority.

The landfill levy regulations require that levy collection in each private landfill be audited at least twice each year but this requirement is not being met. At the time of my report, periodic audits had been carried out in the period 2006 to 2011 in respect of only two of four private landfill sites. Even in those two cases, the number of audits carried out was just over half of the number specified in the regulations. In contrast, the regulations set no target or requirement for the frequency of audit for local authority landfills. So far as we could establish, no local authority landfill had been audited in that respect.

The chapter recommends that the Department ensure the statutory audit requirements are met. The Accounting Officer accepted this recommendation and stated that a number of audits of private landfills would be carried out annually. Audits of local authority landfills are to be undertaken by the Department with the assistance of the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA.

The financial statements of the Environmental Protection Agency for 2011 are also before the Committee today. In 2011, the agency received €46 million of its funding from the State, comprising grants from the Department of €19 million and grants from the environment fund of €27 million. The agency generates further income from enforcement and licence fees, the sale of allowances under the EU emissions trading scheme and services provided by its regional laboratories. Income from such sources amounted to €13 million in 2011.

The financial statements disclose that the agency incurred costs amounting to €4 million in 2011 on remediation works at a private landfill site in Kerdiffstown, County Kildare, which had been abandoned by its operators. Costs incurred in 2012 amounted to €2 million and the agency has budgeted for further expenditure in that regard in 2013. The agency is seeking to recover the costs incurred through the courts.

I thank Mr. McCarthy and call on Ms Tallon to make her opening statement.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

As requested by the committee, I have provided some advance briefing material for the meeting this morning and I will therefore keep my opening statement short.

The Department had significant achievements in 2011 in delivering on key policies and programmes within available resources. We were again assigned the second largest capital allocation of any Department to implement major housing, water, rural development and other programmes.

In the housing area, the housing policy statement published in June 2011 outlined the Government’s approach to addressing rising demand for social housing through a restructured investment programme, the use of more flexible funding models, the standing down of affordable housing schemes and a continued focus on meeting the most acute housing needs. A key development in this area was the publication in October 2011 of a national housing strategy for people with a disability to support people with disabilities in living more independently in communities. Total spending from the Vote on the various housing programmes, including the provision of social housing and improvement and regeneration measures, amounted to over €740 million in 2011.

During the year, nearly 1,200 housing units were delivered through leasing and more than 6,300 units were delivered under the rental accommodation scheme. Some €117 million was invested in regeneration programmes in Dublin, Limerick, Cork, Waterford, Tralee, Dundalk and Sligo. Approximately 12,000 households benefited under the housing adaptation grant schemes through combined Exchequer and local authority funding of over €76 million. The total spend from the Vote in this area in 2011 ensured the needs of over 23,000 households were met from the full range of housing measures.

Department expenditure of €429 million on water services infrastructure in 2011 allowed completion of 61 major water services contracts and the continuation of work on a further 61 contracts. In addition, work commenced on 33 contracts in the course of the year. Some 200 km of public water supply pipes were rehabilitated. Between 2000 and 2011, we added 1.526 million population equivalent to the capacity of water treatment systems and some 3.96 million population equivalent in wastewater treatment capacity. In terms of programme planning, a review of the Water Services Investment Programme 2010-2012 was carried out and an additional 39 contracts were added to the programme, mainly to meet key environmental requirements.

As reflected in the appropriation account before the committee today, 2011 saw the assignment to the Department of community-related functions which were the responsibility of the former Department of Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs. Heritage spending became the responsibility of the new Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht.

During the year, funding of €47 million was provided under axes 3 and 4 of the Leader rural development programme, resulting in the creation of 634 full-time jobs in 2011 and infrastructural enhancements in 658 villages and communities across the country. Under the local and community development programme, which benefited from €62 million in funding in 2011, support and guidance was provided to almost 62,000 young people and children through youth actions. Almost 39,000 adults received advice and information under the programme, while a further 39,000 received one-to-one supports, mentoring, training and employment supports. Up to 8,000 people were progressed into labour market training as a direct result of the programme’s interventions.

The environment fund was established in 2001 and its income derives from levies on landfill waste and on plastic bags. These levies are first and foremost economic instruments which have as their objective the encouragement of more environmentally sustainable behaviour. However, the fund is used to meet important expenditure requirements in the waste management and other environmental areas. For example, the fund is used to support the operation of local authority recycling centres and bring banks, as well as the enforcement work of local authorities and the EPA.

The fund accounts for 2011 show that the surplus in the fund was reduced from €36 million at the end of 2010 to €14 million at the end of 2011, demonstrating the increasing pressures on the fund. This reduction reflects the support from the fund to priority areas, such as water quality monitoring and assessment, for which Exchequer funding was unavailable due to decreasing resources in the Vote.

Chapter 27 of the Comptroller’s annual report concerning environmental levies reviews the arrangements for collection of the levies. Local authorities are responsible for collection of the landfill levy, while the Revenue Commissioners are the collection authority for the plastic bag levy. The chapter outlines four recommendations for the plastic bag levy, of which two relate to procedures that are in the control of the Office of the Revenue Commissioners. One recommendation is made on the landfill levy. My Department has taken measures to address the issues raised in the relevant recommendations and will continue to work to implement them to the greatest extent possible.

The local government fund was established in 1999 as a dedicated source of funding for local authorities to meet general purpose spending needs, as well as a range of other local spending requirements. Motor tax is the principal source of income for the fund. The fund accounts for 2011, which are also on the committee’s agenda for today, detail income and expenditure in that year. The accounts for 2011 show income of €1.189 billion, down almost 6% on the 2010 figure. Some €737 million was allocated directly to local authorities, with a further €411 million being allocated to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport. This includes €398 million to assist local authorities in meeting costs associated with the programme of works on regional and local roads.

In 2012, the Exchequer contribution to the fund was replaced by revenue from the household charge. On the spending side, a payment of €46.5 million was made to the Exchequer from the fund in respect of proceeds arising from increases in motor tax in budget 2012.

Total income in 2012 was €1.168 billion, with €676 million being allocated directly to local authorities and a further €419 million allocated to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport for roads and public transport infrastructure purposes.

The recent report from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General addressed issues regarding the SIPTU national health and local authority levy fund. In relation to the funding of €789,000 provided by the local authority national partnership advisory group, LANPAG, the report found that about €589,000 or 75% had been paid on a reimbursement basis on foot of paid supplier invoices. As previously indicated to the committee, in relation to the remaining €200,000, third party invoices were not provided for LANPAG and the Department sought and LANPAG refunded €200,000 to the local government fund in March 2011. All payments by LANPAG were included in the annual audit of the Local Government Management Agency.

The items on the committee’s agenda for today, including the EPA's financial statements for 2011 on which the agency’s director general will comment, illustrate well the range of issues for which my Department has responsibility. I am, of course, happy to respond to questions on these issues that arise in the course of the committee’s work.

Thank you, Ms Tallon. May we publish your statement?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Yes.

I now invite Ms Burke to make her opening statement.

Ms Laura Burke

I thank the Chairman for giving me the opportunity to attend this meeting.

The mission of the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA is to protect and improve the environment as a valuable asset for the people of Ireland. The objective is to have a clean, healthy and well protected environment supporting a sustainable society and economy.

The EPA performs a wide range of statutory functions for the protection of the environment. In May 2011 an independent external review of the agency was completed. The report of the review group states that, overall, the EPA has provided "considerable benefit for Ireland's environment and for the health and well-being of its people" and that the environmental expertise within the agency is a significant national resource. I take the opportunity to recognise the contribution of EPA staff in delivering the objectives of the agency.

While it is understood the focus of the committee's session is on the EPA's financial statements for 2011, I have also included updates on developments during 2012 and 2013 throughout the briefing document provided for committee members in advance of the meeting.

The EPA has a key role in licensing facilities with the potential to cause significant environmental pollution to ensure their emissions do not endanger human health or harm the environment. In 2011 we issued 163 licences and 467 certificates of authorisation. We also carried out more than 1,000 inspections and audits and took 23 prosecutions in the District Court. One licensee was issued with a notification of intention to revoke a licence. In 2012 we took 16 successful prosecutions in the District Court and a further case, taken on indictment by the Director of Public Prosecution on foot of a file prepared by the EPA, resulted in fines of over €1 million being awarded for odour nuisance.

In 2011 the national waste prevention programme, NWPP, led by the EPA, continued to deliver substantive results in preventing and minimising waste through its BeGreen resource efficiency programmes. The 2012 results from the BeGreen programmes such as Green Business, Green Hospitality and Green Health care identified economic savings in excess of €10 million, with further potential savings of €5 million, from an investment by the EPA of circa €1.2 million.

With regard to climate change, greenhouse gas emissions figures released by the EPA in 2011 showed that Ireland's emissions had fallen by 1.1% in 2010. Our latest figures show that Ireland will comply with its Kyoto Protocol obligations for greenhouse gas emissions; however, there continues to be a significant risk that Ireland will not meet its EU 2020 targets, with Ireland projected to breach annual limits by 2015-16.

The EPA's report on air quality in Ireland in 2011 found that air quality met all EU standards. Clean, healthy and well protected water is essential to maintain viable and vibrant communities across all areas of Ireland, urban and rural. The EPA's drinking water report for 2011 showed that public water supplies serving more than 80% of the population continued to improve, with results indicating that the quality of our larger supplies was equivalent to similar supplies elsewhere in Europe. By the end of 2011, 100% of public drinking water supplies had chlorine monitors installed, up from 30% in 2008-09.

With regard to bathing water, while over 97% of bathing waters met the minimum EU mandatory standard in 2012, only 67% met the more stringent EU guide values. This is significantly down on previous years but similar to reductions observed both in Scotland and other part of the United Kingdom as a result of the high levels of rainfall during the summer of 2012.

Since the EPA was established in 1993, the Comptroller and Auditor General has issued a clean audit report in respect of each year's financial statements. The EPA's 2011 annual accounts were signed off on by the Comptroller and Auditor General on 12 July 2012. The total budget available to the EPA in 2011 was €59.8 million. The EPA's budget has reduced from €65 million in 2009 to €53 million in 2013, while staff numbers have reduced from 343 to 309. During the same period the statutory functions assigned to the EPA have increased. In spite of these changed circumstances, the EPA has carried out and will continue to carry out its key roles in environmental regulation, the provision of knowledge, in advocating for the environment and delivering the valuable societal outcomes for which we are recognised.

May we publish Ms Burke's statement?

Ms Laura Burke

Yes.

I welcome Ms Tallon, Ms Burke and their officials. I will begin by addressing questions to Ms Tallon.

The local property tax kicks in on 1 July and becomes a new funding method for the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. The Department was charged with introducing and collecting the household charge for the past year. May I have an update on the levels of payment and the preparations being made by it to hand over responsibility for the charge to the Revenue Commissioners?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Certainly. I can give the Deputy figures for the household charge up to 25 June. As of that date, 1.253 million households had paid the household charge. Some 24,006 households had registered for a waiver. The compliance rate these figures represent is approximately 79%. At that point the sum of €133.4 million had been raised by the household charge.

Had Ms Tallon set a target for the collection of the household charge when it was introduced?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We estimated that there were 1.6 million households eligible to pay the household charge. We did not know what the position would be in terms of the numbers that would apply for a waiver. Our target was roughly €160 million, if there was full compliance.

Did Ms Tallon budget for the full €160 million?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We hoped we would get the full €160 million. In reality, we are budgeting in a context in which we are very strongly driving efficiency and cost reduction in the local government system. We expect year on year that authorities will be capable of operating with lower levels of resources. I would not say the level of collection we have achieved represents a significant deficiency or shortfall from the local authorities' point of view because we have made efficiency savings. Ideally, we would like to see full collection. As the Deputy knows, final collection moves to the Revenue Commissioners from 1 July.

The target was €160 million, but €133 million was collected, generating a shortfall of €27 million. How did the Department cope with the shortfall?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

This became part of the overall local government fund. We were fortunate in the round within the local government fund to be in a position to give the local authorities in 2013 a level of general purpose grant equivalent to the general purpose grant they had in 2012.

It did not affect the collection rate of the local authorities.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

It did not affect the level of the local government fund general purpose grant we have made available to the local authorities.

Ms Tallon mentioned that next week the Revenue Commissioners will assume responsibility for collecting this money from the 20% of people who have not paid. Is data sharing going on? Is there a transfer process? Is data being handed to the Revenue Commissioners?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

There has been very extensive data sharing with the Revenue Commissioners. As the Deputy will recall, this issue was discussed at considerable length at a meeting of this committee last year. We started from a standing start. There was no database of properties that were potentially liable. A database has been rather painstakingly constructed over the course of the year in the context of the implementation of the household charge. That database has been given to the Revenue Commissioners. I understand it has been extremely helpful for the Revenue Commissioners during the process of preparing for the implementation of the property tax. There is a close working relationship between the Local Government Management Agency, which has been implementing the household charge, and the Revenue Commissioners.

How would Ms Tallon characterise the Department's performance and the performance of the local government sector across the country in the collection of the household charge? Is she satisfied with how the process went? Does she think the local authority system was a suitable place for it to be collected in the first place?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

On reflection, it was quite a difficult experience for the local government system. As members are aware, we have not had this type of tax since the abolition of domestic rates. It could be argued that our culture has been conditioned in terms of that. As I have mentioned, there was no database in existence. We had to construct the entire framework upon which the charge would operate. The performance of the local government system, in getting from a blank sheet to a position of virtually 80% compliance, has to be seen as positive. The professionalism associated with Revenue's collection system has come to the fore in more recent times. Of course, much more significant enforcement measures are associated with Revenue legislation generally. They tend to have a fairly salutary effect. None the less, I think the work that was done on the household charge was an important learning experience for the system in terms of the implementation of this kind of measure.

There were difficulties from the point of view of the local authorities and the perspective of the people who were trying to pay the charge. I have heard stories about local authorities across the country that have failed to acknowledge receipt of payment or have taken two or three months to cash cheques. People were wondering whether they had paid the charge. It seemed to be a bit of a problem. Is it a worthwhile learning experience if, one year afterwards, the function is taken away and it will not have to be done again? What has been learned that is a transferable skill for the future?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I suppose we have learned that a very good communications system needs to be in place initially. This was introduced. The legislation for the household charge was introduced in July 2011. Detailed implementation regulations were brought forward quite late in the year. The charge almost came into effect in real time. We were very concerned about communicating information to the public. Perhaps, on reflection, we could learn from the experience to see if there are better ways of communicating publicly on a change of that kind. We also learned that it is quite difficult to introduce a universal measure at relatively short notice in the absence of significant database capacity. If we had to apply that kind of experience to any other measure, we would reflect very carefully on public education, awareness and communication. We would also reflect on the question of customer satisfaction, which has been raised. When we reflect on customer relations, we ask whether people feel they get a good and courteous service. While I have no doubt that the local authorities and the Local Government Management Agency did their best, equally I accept that people felt quite dissatisfied in a range of respects. I have heard many anecdotes from all around the country. We have to reflect carefully on the customer relations programme associated with this type of measure. Revenue's experience and depth of knowledge is in contrast to what we achieved. Nonetheless, we are reasonably satisfied that getting to 80% is a good performance.

The level of payment that has been achieved is 79%, which means that 21% of households are outstanding. It estimated that the value of the payments they owe is €27 million. That is before one adds on charges or interest. After 1 July, who has ownership of that outstanding amount of money? Is it to be recouped by Revenue for the local government fund, or is it to go to central government?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

It is to go to central government.

I assume the increased penalty on it will go to the same place.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Yes.

That is a loss for the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. It is not going back.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

That goes to the Exchequer.

There was an incentive to ensure the collection rate was as high as possible.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Yes.

I thank Ms Tallon for her replies. I want to move on to Irish Water. We are in similar territory because this involves another new charge that will be applied to households across the country. I think the communication issues mentioned by Ms Tallon a moment ago will come to the fore again when Irish Water rolls out its water charges. Irish Water has been established. I understand Ms Tallon's Department will have quite a large role in it. Can she tell me where it is at the moment? When it is planned to have water meters completed and rolled out for domestic users?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Irish Water has been established on an interim basis under an interim piece of legislation. The Minister intends to introduce full legislation in the course of this year for the full establishment of Irish Water from 1 January 2014. As members are aware, Irish Water will then be established as a full-scale public utility within the Bord Gáis group. Irish Water will be entirely responsible for the metering programme and the arrangements for water charging. Preparations are being made at present for the development of the metering programme. Active work is ongoing to install boundary boxes for metering. The Department has assisted with that as an advance measure. In the case of the metering programme, tendering for contractors regionally and for subcontractors is under way. I think Irish Water expects to begin the work of installing meters in the course of this year, with a view to pursuing such a programme over two to three years.

Ms Tallon mentioned that the tenders for regional contractors are going out. Did I read correctly in the media that three regional contracts are being put on offer?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I think that is correct.

Given that Irish Water has not yet been established and the Department is still engaged in its establishment-----

Ms Geraldine Tallon

There is sufficient legislation. As I mentioned, the agency was set up on an interim basis. The interim legislation has provided sufficient authority for Irish Water to undertake the metering programme. Obviously, we need that to advance the metering programme.

Was the regional contract set for the metering programme?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Yes.

Part of the rationale for setting up Irish Water was that it would be an independent utility company. As a result, it will not be a Government entity and will be able to borrow on international markets and use its revenues to pay back its borrowings. This will be all off the balance sheet for the State. In order to do this, a pretty complex and important financial structure is being put in place. What projections are being put together currently for the likely turnover, the refinancing costs and the likely investment packages this new public utility company will avail of?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

It is a significant development and it is very important that we continue to invest significantly in water services as part of our economic recovery. Unfortunately, due to economic circumstances, we have seen a reduction in the level of investment we have been able to make in water services over the past number of years. Our level of investment is of the order of approximately €320 million for 2013. This is insufficient investment, both to maintain the existing quality of the infrastructure we have and to invest in new infrastructure, water conservation, etc.

PricewaterhouseCoopers conducted an exhaustive advance study on the investment needs for the water sector and its view and ours is that we need to invest at a steady rate of approximately €600 million per year in order to allow for replacement and expansion and to meet economic and environmental needs. That is the approximate investment that will be required for the foreseeable future on an annual basis. There is, of course, a very extensive infrastructure and asset base in the local government system currently. However, there is also a liability associated with that because water services are an area of ongoing capital investment. Therefore, we have an extensive job of work going on in local authority finance and water departments currently to identify, quantify and extract the asset and liability position of the local government system. This is relevant in regard to the overall future capacity of Irish Water.

If the Department is putting together a financial model, it is very important to consider what Irish Water will do. If it seeks to invest €600 million a year in water infrastructure, which I assume will be under a capital expenditure heading and will not be part of Irish Water's regular running costs, it must have a significant income. What is the initial base case being put together? How much income does the Department expect Irish Water to have? What will its cost base be and how many employees will it have? What level of borrowings does the Department expect it to have to leverage on the asset base being evaluated currently?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Those are very difficult questions. They anticipate the future rather than account for things done, so I am not sure I can give the Deputy clear answers at this stage, because this is an evolving process. Local authorities employ approximately 4,000 people in the water services area, but I cannot quantify the expected figures for the coming years. We expect Irish Water will operate through service level agreements with local authorities during the transition, so that is the position on staffing currently. A number of staff in the Department work on the capital programme area and there are opportunities for a number of secondments to Irish Water at present.

The overall situation in terms of operating costs will depend very much on the economic regulator for Irish Water and this is an area of active engagement. We know the level of non-domestic charge on the system, but it will be the job of the regulator to find a balance between the appropriate level of capital investment, the types of operational efficiency that can be secured and the level of charge appropriate to maintain the operation.

Thank you. I have a couple of final questions that will take approximately five minutes to deal with. It was announced over a year and a half ago that NAMA had offered 2,000 units for social housing and that these would be available very shortly. It was anticipated they would come on line quickly. How did that work out?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

It worked out quite well. There is a close working relationship between the Department, the housing agency and NAMA with regard to opportunities for the acquisition of social housing units, subject to the capital being available. The backstop is always the question of the amount of money we have for these programmes. At this point, NAMA has identified 3,900 housing units. Approximately 980 of those have been deemed unsuitable by local authorities, generally because they are in areas where local authorities do not have an identified need. Approximately 650 of the 3,900 units have been withdrawn by their owners for a variety of reasons. Some 2,300 units are in the system for examination and for approximately 680 of these local authority demand has been confirmed. At the end of 2012, just over 200 of those houses had been provided to the local government system. A number of them were purchased by local authorities and a number went to approved housing bodies.

The areas in which houses are available for social use vary. They are available in areas such as Dublin, Cork, Galway, Drogheda and Mullingar. They are distributed around the country.

The number delivered is a lot lower than the Department's target. When we discussed this issue the last time Ms Tallon was here we were given a much more concrete indication that 2,000 units would be made available shortly through leasing and so on, and we were given to understand that process was being managed and was under way.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I am not sure we actually said that the 2,000 units would be in the system and processed, but we were certainly keen that NAMA would identify as many as possible and that we and local authorities would get into an active relationship of investigation and acquisition, subject to funding being available. However, these are complex transactions. In some cases, such as apartment buildings, they involve insolvent management companies, receiverships or issues with regard to the completion of housing and planning compliance. In the area of due diligence, there has been significant activity.

Earlier this year, NAMA set up a special purpose vehicle to try to get around the complexity associated with dealing with receivers, management companies and different property interests so that the Department and housing agencies could engage with that single purpose vehicle.

That is a sub-structure, so to speak, of NAMA. That is now in place and it should be more effective in terms of making progress. Mr. Michael Layde has been dealing with this and if the committee wishes I will ask him to comment a little more in terms of our relationship with NAMA.

Mr. Michael Layde

As Ms Tallon said, the difficulty was around the complexities with which we were dealing. There was a common perception that property transferred to NAMA but in fact it was loans that transferred to NAMA with associated property. In the initial phase we had to work through the labyrinth that was described in terms of NAMA dealing with us and then in turn having to deal with the developers where they were still in control of their properties or, in some cases, receivers. That gave rise to a delay in terms of the level of ambition for this project. The thinking behind setting up the special purpose vehicle, SPV, was to short-circuit that by actually transferring property, so the SPV becomes the owner of the property and that in turn makes it easier for local authorities, the non-profit sector or the approved housing bodies to lease properties-----

NAMA has put those properties into receivership. It acquired ownership and put them into an SPV.

Mr. Michael Layde

Into an SPV. The SPV is a single portal, so to speak, for the local authorities and approved housing bodies to engage with NAMA. We would expect, and we are already beginning to see some evidence of it, that this would increase the throughput as it will expedite the process.

How many properties are in that SPV currently?

Mr. Michael Layde

There are several hundred at the moment. It has only been in operation for a number of months and more will transfer into it. There are issues around the properties transferring in. In many instances properties are not complete, they require finishing works and NAMA is undertaking those works and is bearing the cost associated with it. That is a further factor in terms of the throughput of units, so to speak.

Is the SPV being used mainly for leasing in the rental accommodation scheme or is it for purchases?

Mr. Michael Layde

It is for leasing principally, yes. In the earlier phase much of the emphasis was on the acquisition of properties rather than leasing and there is a capital and a current expenditure component there while in leasing there is just a current expenditure component.

It seems much more sensible that we would lease the properties from NAMA rather than lease them from private landlords on the open market. At least there is some kind of dividend to the State if we were leasing a property from an entity owned by the State.

Having regard to the announcements that were made a number of years ago, the realisation in that respect to date has been very slow. I appreciate that there are legal difficulties and so on but if there is a better way of using public moneys by putting a property into NAMA, which is not the nicest thing to have to do either but at least that would be better than paying a private landlord for leasing it, we should do that as much as we can and we should have the impetus and energy to do that.

I have a brief question on an issue the Comptroller and Auditor General mentioned in his opening remarks related to one of his recommendations regarding the plastic bag levy. It is very unusual for the Department not to agree with one of the Comptroller and Auditor General's recommendations. It seems his recommendation was straightforward and sensible, namely, that Ms Tallon's Department should collate and analyse the results of inspections of the plastic bag levy to assess the adequacy of the inspection regime and overall level of compliance. Ms Tallon has not agreed and said that the litter statistics are enough to go by. This is set out on page 364 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. Why has Ms Tallon not agreed with that recommendation which seems to be an easy, simple and straightforward one?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We have been looking at local government reform very intensively over the last year and we tend not to want to draw things from local government that should happen at local government level. If non-compliance is found by a local authority, we would like to say it is for the local authority to follow that up. Ultimately, the revenue accruing from the plastic bag levy is used to the benefit of local authorities and the EPA. We have issued guidance to local authorities on their enforcement role in relation to the plastic bag levy. While we might have reacted a bit sharply to the Comptroller and Auditor General initially, we have at the same time issued guidance to local authorities to get on with the job. As a general principle, on the question of the extent to which the Department waves a stick over local government, the tendency in a local government reform context is for us to say that we put appropriate systems of oversight in place through local government audit or through the planned new oversight and audit commission but the expectation should be-----

I take the point Ms Tallon is making that local government in essence should be local government, that it should do its job and that the Department should not be intervening, but that is not what the Comptroller and Auditor General is saying. He is commenting on a report the Environmental Protection Agency gave him which indicated that there was a considerable decline in the number of inspections by local authorities. It makes sense to have a national picture of that in order that agencies, other than the local authorities and for purposes other than only inspection, could use that information and compare local authorities to establish those are doing the job best, have peer review and so on. The Comptroller and Auditor General's recommendation is simple and straightforward and, not to be picky, Ms Tallon's response to it was, "Not agreed." The Department does not agree with it and it will not do it. This is the committee that deals with the Comptroller and Auditors General's reports and recommendations. Ms Tallon still has not given me an answer as to why she will not do what has been recommended.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I said we issued guidance to local authorities to ask them to do this more effectively. I have also said that we are looking doubly at oversight and supervision arrangements for local government in the context of local government reform. We can look at this in that context as well. We have, as the Deputy will know, a series of service indicators in relation to performance in local government and they will be reviewed in the context of the oversight and audit commission's operation. I take the criticism that the Deputy is making and acknowledge that the comment we gave back to the Comptroller and Auditor General might have been a little short-sighted but we will be looking very actively at the relationship we have with local government in the context of the approach to local government reform.

Ms Tallon has gone from a response of "Not agreed" to one of "We might do that".

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Yes.

I am not sure how I view that but I will return to it when Ms Tallon appears before the committee next year. I will leave it at that.

I welcome Ms Tallon and her officials. I will start by asking Ms Tallon about rates, specifically rates arrears and rates that have been written off. The most up-to-date figures I have seen have been for 2006 to 2010 in response to Dáil questions I asked about the amounts that have been written off and the amounts in arrears in local authorities around the country. Figures suggest that it is more than €300 million in both categories. Between 2006 and 2010 the figures suggest that €311 million has been written off and the amount owed to date seems to be more than €300 million. Having regard to the different local authorities, town councils, county councils and city councils, there seems to be some disparity with regard to who is writing off these amounts. In the case of some county councils the figures suggest that no amounts have been written off and the same appears to be the case for town councils. In the case of some other local authorities massive amounts of money have been written off. The amount of uncollected rates increased fivefold, for example, in Wicklow County Council in the space of two years, with the amount increasing from €824,000 to €4.1 million.

Kinsale and Athy local authorities were the only authorities that had reduced the amount owed in uncollected rates over the period. Athy, Kells, Trim and Cashel were the only four town councils that did not write off commercial rates. Kildare and Meath county councils were also in that category, while the amounts for other urban areas were massive. There are two issues. Basically, the amounts of uncollected rates are going up and up. That is the trajectory; that is the trend. We are writing off far more in arrears. What are the regulations and the guidelines with regard to individuals and local authorities when it comes to writing off arrears and commercial rates? Is this done arbitrarily? Is it a subjective issue with regard to local knowledge and the particular business in question? What are the guidelines within the Department and how are decisions made when it comes to writing off arrears?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I thank Deputy Deasy. The position with regard to rates collection has deteriorated a little bit in recent years and that is, perhaps, understandable in the economic climate that we face. We monitor the rate collection level. We monitor the level of rates on an annual basis. We monitor the range of sources of income into each local authority because we provide a general purpose grant to bridge the gap for local authorities and ensure they are all able to provide an equivalent level of service. We have figures that show us the rates income, the income from goods and services and the income from all local sources, grants, subsidies, etc., and we use them in looking at the general purpose grant allocation from the local government fund to ensure financial viability.

So this must be of serious concern. Effectively, Ms Tallon is saying that less money is coming in. The Department is monitoring the amount of money that local authorities have to actually operate and provide services. That pool of money is deteriorating as the years go on and the figures prove that. Therefore, what are the guidelines with regard to writing off these arrears?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We are also looking at the level of collection of rates for commercial water charges, housing loans and all the sources of income of local authorities. Ninety percent of rates were collected in 2008, 85% in 2009, 81% in 2010 and 78% in 2011. That shows a trend in terms of collectibility. There is considerable variation from authority to authority in terms of rates collection. The top performer in 2011 was Offaly, which collected 92% of its rates, while at the other end of the spectrum Donegal collected 57%.

I have all the figures. I have asked a parliamentary question.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

There are variations.

There are massive variations. It is germane to this committee and to the taxpayer. The question is: what are the guidelines with regard to the writing off of arrears? Ms Tallon has just said some authorities are better than others.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Yes.

There is an issue here with regard to the taxpayer and the purse. What is the Department's role in informing and communicating to those local authority officials how and when to write off arrears and when not to?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Each local authority invoices and collects. That is a matter for every local authority. The Department is not involved at all from that point of view.

What is its role in regard to the writing off of arrears?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We expect them to operate in accordance with normal accountancy standards and procedures. We expect that the procedures applied by the local authorities are reviewed by the local government audit system and the auditors look at the position with regard to the write-off of debt. We do not expect that local authorities will continue to maintain on their books debt that is totally uncollectible but we do not have the information in terms of the pattern of businesses.

Sure. I deal with businesses and local authority officials all the time, but it is clear - Ms Tallon accepts this - that there are big differences between local authorities when it comes to the collection of commercial rates.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Yes, because there are very big differences in economic circumstances locally. Local government is local, so we have to account for local variation in terms of business experience.

This brings me to my second point. I am going to question whether that actually happens. I will get to the nub of where I am going with this. The Valuation Office, as Ms Tallon is aware, is engaged in a revaluation process. In the case of Waterford City and county it is undertaking a comprehensive revaluation of businesses and their commercial rates levels as we speak. Certificates are being issued. In many cases, retailers in particular have received certificates that would suggest they will be asked to pay 200% or 300% more than at present. The average increase for retailers is 50% to 100%. What has happened is that the rates base has shrunk in the past five, six or seven years and less money is being taken in by the local authorities. The figures prove this. It is arbitrary and it is a patchwork around the country. They is no consistency whatsoever. The Valuation Office is engaged in a revaluation. As it said to a collective group of businessmen in my home town of Dungarvan last week, when asked why the rates were being increased on their backs, the answer was "You are the ones who are left." Effectively, they are the people who cut their cloth, were efficient and let people go, yet the reward was a doubling and tripling of their rates in many cases. Even though the Valuation Office has a statutorily independent role, which is underpinned by legislation, there is a very close relationship with the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. The officials in local authorities levy and collect the rates in towns and counties throughout the country. What is happening is that the rates base is shrinking, a revaluation process is being undertaken and the ultimate result is that the problem will be exacerbated, resulting in a further shrinking of the rates base in the country. It is self-defeating. We are looking at a diminishing return as the years go on. I wonder whether the senior officials in the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government understand this, because people on the ground and in local government understand it painfully well and are very concerned. They have very strong opinions, particularly about the communications and the relationship between local authority officials and the Valuation Office and how the Valuation Office goes about its business.

Does the Department share those concerns with regard to what is happening with commercial rates? Businesses now face the prospect of paying, in the case of retailers, 50% or 100% more in a business environment that probably has never been this bad since the foundation of the State. The profile of these people is that many have massive levels of personal debt and the footfall is not there. The Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government must have an opinion on what is happening on the ground with regard to this cohort of people who actually fund local authorities around the country.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I understand the point Deputy Deasy raises. I will answer him at a broad level and I will answer him at a more specific level if he just gives me a little bit of time in that regard. We would be extremely conscious that this is a time of very fundamental change as far as local government is concerned and a lot of that change is impacting on the finance departments of local authorities. We have a very active programme of local government reform. We have a very active programme in relation to Irish Water, and I have already mentioned the amount of work being done to extract assets and liabilities and the cost base for Irish Water. We have a very active programme of shared services development in the local government sector that is requiring very significant work by finance departments to extract costs for payroll, costs for HR, costs for all sorts of back-office functions, costs for functions that could be delivered regionally, etc. There is the added complexity in Waterford of work related to the merger between Waterford city and Waterford county. There is a variety of layers of process of significant change involved in the local government system.

We have been very conscious, and Ministers have been extremely conscious, of the pressures on business locally in the current economic climate and that has been part of the driver for efficiency gains and cost retrenchments within the local government sector. We are now in a situation where, under the efficiency programme we have had for a number of years, €830 million in verified savings have been identified in the local government system and that, obviously, has a bearing on the overall cost base and the level of pressure being placed externally on sectors. Some 9,000 staff have gone out of the local government system to help create that cost reduction. Rate levels have been contained. ARV increases have been contained and generally reduced over the past number of years and the strong advice and emphasis from the Department and from the Minister has been, "No rate increases in the system", in recent years.

Against that quite complex background, you have this independent exercise being undertaken by the Valuation Office, which does not come into my bailiwick and over which I have no particular control one way or the other, and there may be a discussion that needs to be had with the Valuation Office in terms of the approach there.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Could I continue for a minute?

I have got to stop Ms Tallon there because businesses do not understand what she just said. Her Department is engaging in a process in the case of amalgamations or abolition of town councils. In my home town, they have an ARV level which might be lower than the county level. That ARV level will be, to use the Department's word, "harmonised". Effectively, there is a risk that ARV level will be increased. Therefore, the rates within Dungarvan Town Council will be increased as a result. On top of that, revaluation will add a massive increase to businesses in that particular town council area. I understand that the Valuation Office is statutorily independent but Ms Tallon is absolutely absorbed in and critical to this process because her Department is engaged in administering part of one of those increases. There is a serious systemic problem in government here when a Department is so wrapped up in the administration of an increase that it states to the businesses that are affected by the second increases that it is really nothing to do with the Department. I have gone through this with the different Departments. I have gone through this with the Departments - Public Expenditure and Reform, Finances, and Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation - and no one is taking any leadership on this issue. Everyone is saying, "It is nothing to do with me".

In my opinion, it has everything to do with the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government and it cannot continue to say that because officials in local government levy and collect the rates that the Valuation Offices applies. Those officials are the ones who deal with the individual businesses. They must deal with the hassle that goes with collecting a rate that might have doubled or tripled, and there is a personal issue associated with that. The Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government is critical and integral to this entire system and it cannot say that it has really nothing to do with it.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I did not for a moment say it had nothing to do with my Department. I simply said the Valuation Office does not come under my Department and, therefore, I do not control and I cannot in a formal sense account for what the Valuation Office does, but in no sense did I say that my Department does not have an interest or does not have a concern. We have a big interest and a big concern in this area because, as Deputy Deasy stated, not merely in terms of the situation that Waterford county and city finds itself in a local government reform context, but right across the country in terms of the future approach to municipal districts in place of town councils, the rate base and the rating position in rating towns and in counties has to be merged, and there is a complex job of work-----

If that is the case, I will ask Ms Tallon a question. The Valuation (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 2012 was introduced in the Seanad last year. That Bill completely changes the system of assessment in this country when it comes to commercial rates on properties. It moves to a system of self-assessment. Can Ms Tallon tell me what input her Department had in that piece of legislation? If Mr. Lavery wants to answer that question, he can.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

That piece of legislation does not come under my Department. We would have had engagement with the Department of Finance in relation to the preparation of the legislation, as many Departments do.

The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. I am sure the Department of Finance has an interest as well. A number of Departments would have been involved and engaged.

Deputy Deasy will be aware, though, that our Minister would have dealt with this issue on a number of occasions because questions have been raised right around the country in terms of the implications for rate payers of local government reform and we have said this is a complex area of work where there will be adjustment over a period. There is a balance to be struck in maintaining the necessary revenue base of local government. As I have explained, in maintaining the necessary revenue base of local government, local government has done enormous amounts to try to shrink its costs, and has done that with considerable success. We have to try to maintain the revenue base without creating excessive pressure for rate payers. There is a balance to be struck as far as those are concerned.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We do have some experience in the system at this stage, in terms of how the revaluation has actually worked out in practice. My understanding of the revaluation exercise is that it is intended to redistribute the rates burden equitably across the rate-paying sectors, that it is not intended to - and does not - increase the total rates payable in the year following valuation. South Dublin and Dún Laoghaire have had the revaluation exercise implemented. Once the notifications go out, there is an opportunity for rate payers to make representations.

I am painfully aware of the system. I have spoken to the Commissioner.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The practical experience in South Dublin and Fingal was that in south County Dublin the proportion of rate payers with a reduced liability following the revaluation was 49%.

We know these figures. The Valuation Office comes in frequently. The figures are documented. The theme so far this morning has been communication or lack of it, on the property tax and household charge, as Deputy Nolan said. There is no communication happening between Departments, particularly on legislation that affects businesses and local authorities around the country. There was no significant engagement on the drafting of that legislation and the effect it would have on businesses throughout the country and, by extension, the local authorities which collect it. We have a serious problem. There is a gulf between different Departments on this issue.

Ms Tallon mentioned maintaining the rate base. The rate base is being eroded. The ones left are being asked to pay more. It is unsustainable. They fund local government and are being asked for more every year. The business environment is getting worse and everybody is saying that is just the way it is, it nothing to do with them, it must continue. The Valuation Office is an independent agency and says it is not its responsibility. I am not singling out the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government on this issue but it is an integral part of government when it comes to this very basic, fundamental matter of administration and the taxpayers who fund the Government. There is a massive disconnect in Government between Departments as it relates to people who fund the Government. This is very fundamental and basic.

We need to examine the legislation that will be enacted next year to see if it melds with the realities of the economies that exist out there. Everyone needs to take a good look at this because the more I ask the more I am convinced the Government has forgotten about the realities when it comes to rates and the ability to pay. There is no linkage between levying people increasing rates and their ability to pay. That is a fundamental flaw in our taxation system. We will see our rate base eroded continually. I have asked the Comptroller and Auditor General to examine these issues, particularly the administration when this Bill is enacted and how we will deal with a case where different counties have different methods of assessment. I have also asked the Valuation Office to come before the committee to explain the different processes involved.

Having spoken to many people in local government, they are not happy. They think the disconnect between their office and the Valuation Office is unhealthy for Government generally, not just the people in question. They think the Valuation Office lacks the requisite local knowledge and there is a problem in our system. The Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government has a massive role in this because the officials under the umbrella of the Department think completely differently in some cases from the senior officials in the Department. They are the ones who have to deal with these businesses. I am very concerned about this and hopefully the Comptroller and Auditor General will be able to examine it in the coming weeks.

I have a question for Mr. Lavery on the household charge exemptions in unfinished estates. How did he put together that list?

Mr. Colm Lavery

In the context of bringing forward the legislation for the household charge, a separate exercise was ongoing to identify the list of unfinished housing estates and the four categories they fitted into, in the context of the national survey of unfinished housing estates. That survey, which was compiled by the local authorities and returned to the Department, was used in setting out in a statutory instrument the list of unfinished housing estates that would qualify for an exemption or waiver from the household charge.

Was it a complete list? Did the local authorities do their jobs properly in informing the Department of those unfinished estates?

Mr. Colm Lavery

The local authorities are on the ground in their administrative areas and are best positioned to gauge the state of the housing estates in their areas.

It was not a complete list. There have been problems since then.

Mr. Colm Lavery

I acknowledge there have been some problems in terms of the addresses provided for the lists and some estates that should have been on that list. The Office of the Ombudsman has raised concerns on a number of those.

The Office of the Ombudsman has been involved in this on a number of occasions. People have written to that office and gone to it after dealing with the Department. I cannot understand why the Department has allowed it to go to the Ombudsman in some cases. Surely the Department could have dealt with it. It is very simple stuff, if an address was left off and the Department agrees. Why do we in Government allow it to get to that point where the Ombudsman must deal with it? Why did the Department not deal with this simple administrative issue?

Mr. Colm Lavery

It depends on the persons living in these estates and where they went to first with their complaints about the list. A number of residents feel they are living in unfinished houses so we do not have that knowledge in the Department. The list as set out in the statutory instrument was the list in terms of administering the household charge and the list that was provided to the local government management agency.

Is the Department planning on issuing another statutory instrument to deal with this in the coming weeks?

Mr. Colm Lavery

Concerns have been made known to the Department about a number of estates. They are being considered in the Department and a decision will be made in the near future.

So the answer is "Yes". There is a bit of work to be done. Mr. Lavery has acknowledged there have been problems with the administration of this since the beginning.

Mr. Colm Lavery

Yes, the Office of the Ombudsman has raised issues with us.

So Mr. Lavery will deal with it in the Department and issue a statutory instrument, potentially.

Mr. Colm Lavery

Potentially. There will be an arrangement to deal with the issues that have come to light.

Mr. Michael Layde

The survey to which Deputy Deasy refers was designed and intended to quantify the extent of the problem of unfinished housing developments as opposed to collecting the household charge but it was the only database available to us while the household charge issue arose, so it was applied. It did not have the level of accuracy one would seek if one was basing it around the collection of the charge. By contrast, a more recent survey is being used as the basis for local property tax. With foresight, in this case, of the potential use of it - it will be used for other purposes as well - the level of precision that was brought to bear in that instance was of a different order because it was for a different purpose.

That is fair enough and the Secretary General explained that this is a new landscape and when the Department got involved in this first it was something nobody had dealt with before. Such things will happen and that is fair enough. The Department can acknowledge that but when it was pointed out that estates were left off that list, the Department did not step in and say, "Fair enough". The Department allowed it to go to the Ombudsman. It is almost as if the Department has been forced to act on this by the Ombudsman and the litany of complaints. Two or three weeks from now we will have another statutory instrument to clear this up. We need to act a bit quicker when we acknowledge - as we are doing - that this is a new landscape regarding putting this together. The list was incomplete, the complaints came in, they were verified, the Department acknowledged this, but it did nothing. We have had to go to the Ombudsman and we are almost forced into dealing with it. Sometimes a quick decision in the Department to deal with matters might be better.

I thank Ms Tallon and her team for attending. I start with a relatively minor issue about which there were media reports last week. I would like to clear it up. It is about the cost to local authorities of the new reform measures. The witnesses will probably have seen in last weekend's Sunday newspapers reports that some local authorities are splurging on the purchase of new furniture, including chairs at prices akin to the price of thrones, to accommodate new councillors. While we will have fewer councillors overall on foot of the review, which I welcome, some local authorities will see an increase in their numbers. Has funding been provided by the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government to accommodate extra public representatives and does the Department join me in urging local authorities to act responsibly in undertaking expenditure in this regard given that one of the purposes of local government reform is to reduce costs as well as to improve the system?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The Minister spoke at some length on the costs and benefits of local government reform following the publication of Putting People First. The programme is intended to assist in increasing the efficiency and savings achievable in local government. There was recent publicity arising from the report of the Local Electoral Area Boundary Committee which has distributed 949 local councillor positions. A number of authorities feel they have an unexpected increase in the number of councillors and there has been discussion around whether or not council chambers are adequate to accommodate the increased numbers. Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council has been a case in point. There is a significant increase in the number of elected members in that authority and we understand that the existing chamber is not adequate to accommodate them. There is restricted access while Dún Laoghaire Town Hall is a protected structure. There has been debate in the local authority around finding a solution and the cost of any solution. There are a number of local authorities in the greater Dublin area where the increase in the number of elected members is significant relative to the size of the council chamber. That has given rise to discussion.

The Department is not paying additional costs of any kind. That is entirely a matter for local authorities to deal with. We would expect and hope they would deal with expenditure as cost effectively as possible.

I just wanted to clear that up. I want to examine development levies, illegal dumping and the issuing of a waste permit which was subsequently shredded in Wicklow County Council before having to be reissued. I will explain the last matter in a moment.

I begin with the issue of development levies. I asked a series of parliamentary questions of the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government in March 2013. I was given figures on the outstanding amount of development levies for each local authority categorised under two headings, "current development levy debtors" and "long-term development levy debtors", respectively. When one adds up the current and long-term debtors, local authorities are owed or expect to be owed a total of €750 million. The economic collapse has not passed anyone's notice. I understand that some of the current levies may never have fallen due in circumstances where construction may not have commenced. However, I was concerned to see that €300 million of the outstanding levies are classified by local authorities as long-term debt.

When I published the figures on 15 March 2013, I was surprised and taken aback by the very defensive approach of the Department in responding to media requests. It seemed to try to rubbish or dispute the figures which it had itself put in the public domain in reply to parliamentary questions. There was a series of statements from the Department on 15 March 2013 clarifying, reclarifying and explaining the figures. When I look at the figures, I see that €300 million is owed to local authorities in outstanding levies which have been classified as long-term debt. How many years must elapse before a levy is classified as a long-term debt? Surely, €300 million is a cause of significant concern.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Development levies are levied in the context of a planning application. A figure may be identified as a condition of planning approval. A planning consent with a condition attached identifying the development levy contribution per house, number of houses or per square metre - whatever the case may be - may never be taken advantage of. Long-term debt represents a tot by a local authority related to planning consent conditions. We would not necessarily know whether or not the development has ever happened. One would expect in a local authority context that once a commencement notice for development is provided, the clock begins to roll in respect of the associated conditions. Development contributions associated with a development's commencement notice become a current development contribution debtor as, by definition, that development will be built. Permissions in respect of which no planning commencement notice has been lodged and in respect of which there is no prospect in the current climate of the development going ahead, are classified as long-term development contribution debt. It may never be realisable as the development associated with the permission may never happen.

I acknowledge that. I acknowledge that not all of the €750 million that is owed or meant to be owed to local authorities by developers or people going about development will have materialised. What I have not been able to establish since March is whether we have an idea of how much of it did materialise? In other words, if I go to build a conservatory today and issue a commencement notice, I am expected to pay my development levy up front. I understand that in the context of encouraging businesses and development, local authorities arranged for phased payments of development levies with developers. It is important to establish how much is officially due where development took place but the levies have not been paid.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The figure we are working on for development levy debtors for 2011 is based on the annual financial statements of local authorities. These indicate that current development levy debt amounts to €425.24 million. That is the real figure in terms of development levy debt.

The Department considers that figure to be the amount owed on foot on development that has materialised.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Yes, or which is, in the view of local authorities, likely to materialise.

In one of the statements the Department issued on 15 March 2013, it referred to bad debts and set out that when they are taken into account, the true level of outstanding development levies for 2010 was €214 million. What are the guidelines in place according to which a local authority decides whether an outstanding levy represents a bad debt? If the true figure of outstanding development levies nationally for 2010 was €214 million and it is €425 million for 2011, does that not represent a very significant increase? That does not tally.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I do not understand the reference to statements. I do not have the statements so I do not understand what statement Deputy Harris is referring to.

I will read it to Ms Tallon. This appeared on the RTE news website on Friday, 15 March.

The Department of the Environment has said this evening that figures on the level of unpaid development levies that it issued to Fine Gael TD Simon Harris earlier this week do not take account of levies that local authorities have written off as bad debts.

It said when bad debts are take account of the true level of outstanding development levies nationally for 2010 was €214m.

The same figure for the unaudited 2011 accounts is €178m.

Our exchange this morning helps to highlight my confusion. I asked a parliamentary question and I was given the figure of €750 million. Within the reply to that parliamentary question, there is a figure of €350 million for long-term debt. The Department issued a clarification to RTE saying that the figures provided to me did not paint the full picture and that, when one looked at the accurate picture, it amounted to €214 million. This morning, I am told that in the view of the Department the real figure is €425 million for 2011. This country does not know how much money it is owed by developers. I am passionate about this because I can give examples in my county, where I served on the county council, of developers going ahead with their developments. They may now have been declared bankrupt but ten or 12 years elapsed while they were not bust and development levies were not secured in that time for development that had taken place and for houses that had been sold. From experience I know that councils did not take such a lax approach to individuals trying to build a two-storey extension. It gives an insight into the cosy relationship that existed at local authority level between developers and local authority officials in some instances. We must establish how much is owed. We must acknowledge that the economy has changed and some of the levies will not be recoverable, but we must get to the true picture. Does Ms Tallon have any insights she can give me on that or information she can provide to me?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Given the variety of different figures quoted, I hesitate to add to the confusion rather than promote clarity.

I do not mean to be pedantic, but-----

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I prefer to offer to send a written explanation of the combination of figures. I feel I might add to the confusion rather than generate clarity. If it is acceptable to Deputy Harris and the Chairman, I will undertake to look at all the figures and send a written statement to the Chairman to cover the issue.

I am quite happy with that. Not to be pedantic, but all of the five figures I cited are departmental figures from the same Department. That is the cause of my frustration.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I accept that. Some of the time we are talking about figures compiled in our planning section. Ultimately, we want to rely on the figures as audited by the local government auditors in the context of the annual financial statements. I have provided a figure for 2011 that is not absolutely complete because a couple of annual financial statements for 2011 are still to be finalised in the local government audit system. I want to give a position that is accurate. There is some commentary in the activity report at county council level, which the local government audit system has already issued. I will come back to the Chairman with a note of clarification.

From my perspective, I am looking for the current amount of outstanding development levies from developments that have materialised and developments that the local authorities expect to materialise, the amount of outstanding levies that appear on paper in respect of developments that will likely never materialise, and the amount of development levies written off as bad debts. It would be a useful exercise.

With regard to illegal dumping, an example from County Wicklow may be applied to a broader national discussion. Ms Tallon is well aware of the situation in Whitestown, Baltinglass. In Whitestown, there was illegal dumping at a sand and gravel pit. In 2001, it was estimated that 300 lorry loads of material were illegally dumped. The lorry loads consisted of domestic waste, commercial waste, construction waste, demolition waste and hospital waste. A landmark judgment was made against this country by the European Court of Justice as a result of action taken by the European Commission. It found that Ireland had quite seriously infringed the waste framework directive. On 20 April 2005, the Department issued its response to the judgment and the actions it proposed to take. On page 32 of the document, the Department refers to the Whitestown situation. What is the situation with regard to the remediation of the Whitestown site to comply with the European Court of Justice judgment?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

This has been a long drawn out situation, as the Deputy knows. The Whitestown illegal dump was discovered in November 2001 and there appeared to have been systematic and large-scale dumping at Whitestown quarry from 1996 to 2001. A High Court action was initiated in 2005 but it came to a substantive hearing only in 2009. A whole variety of issues concerned discovery in the case so the court finally ruled on proceeding in December 2010. There was a mediation process in 2011, ultimately without any settlement. We have serious legal action from the European Commission in the waste area and we were conscious of the concern of the European Commission that illegal waste remained on site in Whitestown in 2011.

The Department, because of the EU compliance aspect, felt it had no option but to ask Wicklow County Council to consider remediation of the site. I understand work is ongoing. The cost is estimated at €6 million to €7 million. Waste has been removed from one area and other areas are being capped. The programme of works being undertaken is to be completed in 2014. As of now, we have provided €740,000 to Wicklow County Council to support the cost of the work it is undertaking.

There is ongoing legal action here but it seems bizarre that councils take legal action against closed companies. The legal action is one of the longest-running High Court cases in history of the State, which is frustrating for everyone involved. There seem to be significantly different figures emerging. The figure of €50 million was provided by the county manager to councillors at a county council meeting. Ms Tallon is saying she expects that figure to be much lower.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

It is possible the figure provided by the county manager relates to a number of illegal dumps in Wicklow. Whitestown was not unique and unfortunately there is also the case of Stephenstown and illegal dumping on the Wicklow-Carlow border. My colleague Mr. Ronan Mulhall may have broader figures and the EPA may have a comment on illegal waste dumping, because it is a serious and costly issue for the State.

Mr. Ronan Mulhall

The drop in the cost relates to the level of assessment on the site as regards options for remediation. It is also subject to tendering so it is not a question of saying it will cost X and tendering for that amount.

The estimates were initially substantially higher but different approaches have been proposed in terms of how to deal with the material on site. It concerns issues such as removing clay that was not contaminated rather than removing everything, so it relates to the engineering approach, which explains some of the variation. One obviously has to be prudent and anticipate more substantial costs in the initial phases.

What is the actual figure estimated for the cost of remediation at Whitestown?

Mr. Ronan Mulhall

It is closer to the €7 million that was indicated by the Secretary General. Again, that is subject to further assessment on the site.

I have a specific and broader question for the Secretary General. An understandable letter of comfort has been written to Wicklow County Council and, one can only presume, other county councils. To be clear, I am very supportive of the proactive approach the Department is taking to rectify the illegal dumping situation and to respond to the European Court judgment. However, on 24 June 2011 Wicklow County Council would have received a letter signed by the assistant principal officer of the waste policy section, effectively stating that the Department was going to pick up the tab for these remediation costs. How much has the Department estimated it is going to have to spend on picking up the tab for illegal dumping in various counties? Where is that in the budget?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The landfill legacy is a very vexed question. We have significant costs for remediation of closed landfills and significant costs associated with dumping, particularly in the Wicklow-Carlow area. In particular, we have significant costs associated with a difficult site such as Kerdiffstown in Kildare, where the EPA is dealing with landfill legacy problems of a very serious nature. We also have difficulties associated with cross-Border movement of waste and illegal dumping of waste in Northern Ireland, for which we are now responsible. This issue of mending our hand in regard to our landfill legacy is an increasing burden on the decreasing resources of the environment fund. With regard to our costs, in 2013 we have €12 million in our Vote for landfill remediation. Mr. Mulhall may be able to give a broader figure on the costs associated with the various elements of the legacy.

Mr. Ronan Mulhall

The Deputy will have seen that we put up on our website the response regarding the programme of measures and the European Commission has indicated that it sees this as a model of how to approach and respond to a judgment. As the Deputy will have seen, the projected expenditure into the future to deal with the final issues associated with that was €105.6 million. This includes not just remediation of sites but also some key pieces that had to be put in place to deal with our structures and how we respond to enforcement of the legislation, including enforcement grants for the support of local authority enforcement officers. That is another piece within this, and it also includes addressing some very significant sites, such as the former Irish Steel plant at Irish Ispat, Haulbowline. These add considerably to the overall total.

It is an astonishing sum of money. Again, I want to acknowledge and put on the record of this committee the good work I believe the Department is doing in dealing with these serious issues at a European level. I will now move to an area in which I do not feel it is doing as good a job, which is, again, an issue I was directly involved with during my time on Wicklow County Council and which I have continued to pursue during my time in Dáil Éireann, with no satisfaction whatsoever in regard to the response I have received from the Department. This is the issue of Ballybeg, which long predates my involvement in public life. To remind the witnesses of some of the details, in 2003 a waste permit was granted for lands at Ballybeg in Rathnew. This permit was subsequently shredded, and I believe the EPA will be aware of this because it was directly referenced in the comments after the permit was shredded, which were to the effect that whoever shredded the permit, for whatever reason, realised they had better re-issue it because the original copy had been lodged with the EPA. Since then, this has been an issue of significant concern for all public representatives in County Wicklow. It gives me a worrying insight into how the Department has not picked up on concerns when they are fed up the food chain, if one likes, and passed on from local authority level to the Department.

In January 2010, which is seven years after this waste permit was granted, shredded and re-issued, I attended a special meeting of Wicklow County Council where I and my colleagues on a cross-party basis voted to ask the then Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, under the Local Government Act, to conduct a local inquiry, which is a pretty speedy and cost-efficient way of establishing what happened. There was widespread support for this. My predecessor in Dáil Éireann, Deputy Liz McManus, raised the matter in the Dáil on 1 February 2010. She was told on the record of the Dáil by a Minister of State that the issue would be examined carefully. Time moved on and nothing happened other than that the council received an acknowledgment from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government stating it was looking into the matter. When I was elected to the Dáil, I tabled parliamentary questions on the issue on a number of occasions, and I most recently tabled a question in June 2012, when I was told the Department had not made up its mind and would consider it in due course.

My question is not even about Ballybeg, although I am pretty disgusted at the way these issues, having been passed up the line by local representatives, have been sat on, in my view, by the Department. My question is about a broader issue. We were meant to have local government structures. We have a Local Government Act, we have a Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government that obviously interacts with local government and we have very official ways in which that interaction should take place. We are all about reform at the moment and are talking a lot about local government reform. Yet here is a situation in which a local authority passes a democratic motion under the Local Government Act to ask the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government to consider setting up an inquiry, and that takes place in 2010, seven years after this issue was first highlighted - the EPA will be aware of the issue also, so I may ask Ms Burke for a comment shortly. A special request was put in, but nothing happened. Next, a Deputy raised it in the Dáil on 1 February 2010 and it was said the matter would be looked at, but nothing happened. Then we had a general election and new Deputies were elected, and I asked the question and got fed up asking the question because I knew the answer.

I am not sure the Department is ever going to arrive at a conclusion. First, in regard to this issue, my view is now as it was then, namely, that something seriously questionable happened in Wicklow and needs to be looked into. However, the broader point is that even if the Department vehemently disagrees with me and the local representatives who passed that motion, does Ms Tallon not find it utterly unacceptable that, ten years after the alleged incident happened and more than three years after the council sent correspondence to the Department, the Department has still failed to respond on the matter?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I do find it a bit surprising. I am not entirely clear on what the issue actually is and I will have to look into it on the Deputy's behalf. I would say generally that if this is an issue of environmental enforcement, we would expect the Office of Environmental Enforcement in the EPA to be aware of it because that is where the oversight of enforcement of environmental legislation happens. My understanding is that the Office of Environmental Enforcement is open to looking into issues on behalf of anyone who has a complaint in regard to the implementation of environmental legislation.

I am sure that is the case, and that is fine. However, the situation is that the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government knows of this request from Wicklow County Council.

It acknowledged the request which came from a senior level. I cannot remember the exact signature on the letter, but the acknowledgement came from a pretty senior level in the Department. Presumably, when the then Deputy Liz McManus raised the issue in the Dáil in 2010, that kicked off an array of events in the Department in responding and flashed the issue on the radar. Otherwise we are into a bigger issue. One hopes that when one tables parliamentary questions, as I have done on numerous occasions on Ballybeg, it triggers a chain of activity causing somebody to find out the Department's position. Otherwise we are all wasting our time here. Every time I have asked the question the Department's position has been to the effect that it has not yet decided.

I warmly welcome the system of local government reform. We are coming into a situation where, regardless of political affiliation, we are asking civic minded people to put their names forward, contest local elections and take part in their communities. They are operating under the Local Government Act which specifically states the Department can grant a local inquiry where an independent person arbitrates, possibly in a council chamber or nearby building, and makes a decision. That request is outstanding for more than three years on something that took place more than ten years ago. It is slightly suspicious or odd that the Department has not adjudicated on the issue one way or another, even if one fully disagrees with the local representatives. At the least, it is extremely bad manners that there has not been a response.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I am a little unclear on the issue. There is something in my head and I am unsure whether it is the same issue, but it is a detail I have not covered in preparing for today. Did Deputy Simon Harris refer to the local government audit? There was an issue in County Wicklow where we asked the local government auditor to investigate whether there was a problem from his point of view in its handling by Wicklow County Council. I cannot remember whether this is specifically the issue. Because I have not covered the specifics of this local issue in preparing for today I cannot usefully add much.

Mr. Michael Layde

We will have to check and come back to the Deputy.

I have never corresponded directly with the EPA on this issue, but in conversations with others and correspondence I have reviewed people talked about the original waste permit having been lodged with the EPA and, therefore, the EPA being aware of the issues involved.

Ms Laura Burke

I would have to look into the matter. Under section 19 of the waste facility permits regulations, the EPA is responsible for holding a register of all permits; therefore, we would have a record of that permit. Regarding any other issue relating to Ballybeg, I would have to look into it and come back to the Deputy.

That is perfect. My understanding of the EPA's involvement or knowledge is exactly as Ms Burke said, that it hold a registers that indicates that this permit has been issued. Therefore, if it was destroyed, removed or disappeared, it would still be lodged in her offices. The Ballybeg issue concerns me, but the broader point is that these are serious issues and allegations and everybody involved deserves clarity. At the level of a county council passing a motion, if somebody suggests something untoward happened or something deserves consideration about issues on which the country is paying a heavy price as a result of a failure to address them properly in the past - dumping, waste permits, etc - that there could be such a time lag is of concern. I am interested in knowing whether structures are in place or could be put in place in the Department in order that if it receives a request under the Local Government Act asking it to initiate a public inquiry, it would respond, positively or negatively, within a set period. If the response is no, it is up to people to consider how to proceed after that.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We normally respond actively to correspondence received from local authorities. There is something in my head and I am not sure if it is precisely the same matter we are discussing. There was an instance in County Wicklow in respect of which we asked our local government audit service to establish all of the steps and facts associated with it. To the best of my recollection in former Minister Dick Roche's time we released all of the papers we had on the issue. I cannot remember whether it was on the Ballybeg or another issue.

I do not wish to delay the meeting. To draw this matter to a conclusion, when former Deputy Liz McManus raised it in the House, the Minister of State of the day said the Department had arranged for all departmental records recently released under the Freedom of Information Acts to be furnished to the then cathaoirleach of Wicklow County Council with the strong recommendation that they be circulated to all members of the council without delay. I presume that happened. The then Minister of State also said the public inquiry requested would be considered. A specific provision in the Local Government Act empowers local authorities to make this request of the Department. From my parliamentary questions, then Deputy Liz McManus's raising of the issue and the correspondence Wicklow County Council sent to the Department, unless things changed and nobody told us, that issue has never been adjudicated on. When I have asked the question on a persistent basis I have been told the Department has not made up its mind. It would be great if it could make up its mind.

Will Ms Tallon reply directly to the committee on Deputy Simon Harris's specific query in order that we can understand what is going on and draw it to a conclusion?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Yes.

I thank Ms Tallon.

The collection rate for the household charge is 79%. The collection rate for commercial rates is 78%. Is that the figure Ms Tallon gave this morning?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I will give the figure for the rate again. It was 78% for commercial rates in 2011.

What was the rate for commercial water rates?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

It was 55% in 2011.

What was the rate for general rent collection for local authority houses?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

It was 84%.

Am I missing one?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I mentioned the rate for housing loans, which was 75%

On mortgages in difficulty, people who have loans from local authorities have the same problems as people who have loans from the banks. How are they dealt with it?

Mr. Michael Layde

We have sought to mirror the situation for people with commercial mortgages in distress. As the policy for commercial mortgage holders has evolved, including the suite of potential solutions set out in the Keane report, we have sought to duplicate this in the case of local authority mortgages. We have done so at each stage. Therefore, the mortgage resolution process first iterated by the Central Bank was applied to local authority mortgage holders and the current one is being applied. We are also applying the Keane report's set of solutions which includes the potential for people to switch to the mortgage-to-rent scheme, to surrender ownership but remain in their homes.

Has that been notified formally to every county council? Are they acting uniformly?

Mr. Michael Layde

We are in the process of rolling it out. We have piloted it in two local authorities, Westmeath County Council and Dublin City Council, in recent months. We will be communicating with all local authorities and it will be applied uniformly across the system.

How long will it take to do this? We all speak from our constituency experiences. There are people in serious difficulty who have been in discussions with the council but are not able to resolve their cases because there seems to be no plan in place. Those who find themselves in these circumstances cannot wait very long, as their backs are to the wall.

Mr. Michael Layde

I would need specific examples. Already in place under the legislation on local authority loans and the mortgage resolution process that has been rolled out is considerable flexibility for local authorities to deal sensitively with individual households in difficulty. Our information is that they do. That, in part, is reflected by a very low level of repossession in respect of local authority mortgages in distress. This further iteration will ensure there is parity of treatment, regardless of whether one is a commercial mortgage holder or a local authority mortgage holder. We will be rolling out that but then it becomes a matter of the lender dealing with the customer in each case. There are a number of options. This involves agreeing with the customer, if possible, a solution that works for the household in question. Elements of the solution can include for example, warehousing a portion of the loan on a spectrum to mortgage to rent, which is the circumstance where somebody ceases to have ownership of the property but can continue to remain in it. There is a range of solutions, depending on the individual circumstances.

That surprises me based on my having dealt with a number of cases. I am happy to hear Mr. Layde's response but what is required next is action on the ground. The sooner it happens, the better for people.

Mr. Michael Layde

We did want to pilot it rather than simply roll out what has already been rolled out by the Central Bank in terms of the commercial side. We wanted to test it in the particular context of local authority loans. There is a slightly different relationship between local authorities and their customers than there is between a commercial enterprise and its customers. We have been doing what I describe in Westmeath and Dublin successfully and, in the coming months, it will apply right across the system.

Is it only a matter of months?

Mr. Michael Layde

Absolutely. The process of dealing with individual customers takes as long as it takes.

Once the officials are fully aware this is now the-----

Mr. Michael Layde

Everybody will be working to the same template.

The local government audit always interests me. Ms Tallon said earlier that 2011 was being dealt with.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

There are a very small number of audits outstanding for 2011 in a number of areas. The audit cycle has moved into 2012 at this stage, so there is very active involvement with 2012 audits. We will have a number of those completed by this summer.

Has 2011 shown up any concerns in relation to the indebtedness of local authorities generally?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The local government auditor prepared an overall report, an activity report, in respect of 2011. It was published earlier in the year. Of course, we have concerns about a number of local authorities in the current economic climate. As a rule of thumb based on traffic lights, one third are in the red, one third are in the amber and one third are in the green. There are varying stages of stress in the system in terms of debt on the revenue account, and we are monitoring that very closely. We are in contact with local authorities on a quarterly basis in terms of their financial indicators for the purpose of EU-IMF monitoring.

Is it the view of the Department that those who are in debt can be controlled? Is there a level of indebtedness within some of the local authorities that they simply will not be able to handle? Has the Department to plan for that?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We think that, in all cases, debt is manageable in local government. There are a number of areas where there is accumulated debt but one can see on an annual basis that it is being eaten into because there have been very active debt-management and cost-reduction strategies put in place. As I identified earlier, there was €830 million in savings in the local government system over the past couple of years and a very dramatic reduction in the staffing number. That is helping to contain costs. The local government reform programme will have further cost containment associated with it. The shared services programme that we are engaged with is designed to increase efficiency and contain costs. Therefore, there are a number of different strands to what we are doing that will change the financial situation from authorities' points of view. However, in a couple of cases, there is accumulated debt that we need to be conscious of.

Is there an overall figure for debt?

Mr. Colm Lavery

The overall figure at the end of 2011 was approximately €4.9 billion.

What year?

Mr. Colm Lavery

Our quarterly returns are showing that local authorities are reducing debt year on year. The period 2010 to 2011 saw a reduction of €120 million in the overall debt in the sector.

What was it in 2010?

Mr. Colm Lavery

It was €4.9 billion in 2011 and it would have been higher in 2010 by €120 million.

It was €4.9 billion in 2011.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

It was €4.9 billion in 2010.

In 2010?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

It was €4.9 billion in 2010. There was a reduction in 2011, with the caution that a couple of audits are not absolutely complete. The position was €4.86 billion in 2011.

Are all the returns in?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

All returns are in but all the figures are not. There are a couple of authorities in respect of which the audit is not finalised.

Regarding the general comment on the 2011 account, which I believe Ms Geraldine Tallon stated was issued in January, what are the main concerns of the local government audit section regarding local government and the general auditory position of local authorities?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The local government auditor, in doing the activity report, which I mentioned, looks carefully at the collection performance across authorities. With regard to the kinds of figures we have already identified here, including those pertaining to rates collection, housing loans and commercial water charges, the local government auditor identified the trend in collection is an issue.

On the question of debit balances on capital projects, historically in the Department it has sometimes taken quite a long time to settle final accounts and have final account data in the Department in terms of capital projects. The auditor looks at the capital account at local authority level. There are some very large projects in the local government system, for example, Ballymun and Limerick regeneration projects. The auditor looks at the quality of performance in large capital areas.

The auditor has also commented on the number of companies established by local authorities for specific purposes, including limited companies controlled by local authorities. He has raised a question for local authorities to consider in respect of the proliferation of companies, the governance of companies and the need for companies for specific purposes.

Does the Department receive reports on companies established by local authorities?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

These are matters at local government level. We would not necessarily get the reports. They may be in respect of matters that the Department does not have any role in. For example, local authorities might have been involved in the development of leisure facilities, such as swimming pools and, rather than operate these directly, they might have established a limited company to operate them.

My point is that the local authority would have invested a large amount of money in some of these projects, so taxpayers' money is tied up in the project. Who has oversight of that set of accounts? Sometimes it is a private limited company, but it is taking taxpayers' money from the county council.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The local government auditor exercises financial oversight from the Department's point of view.

So he or she has oversight.

Mr. Colm Lavery

In the annual financial statements for 2012 local authorities are required to report on companies in which they have an interest. The financial statement is audited by the Local Government Audit Service.

That starts in 2012?

Mr. Colm Lavery

Yes.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The activity report is available on the Department's website. It is an overview of all county and city councils in terms of the performance of the audit. There is a commentary from the head of the Local Government Audit Service identifying issues and trends, such as those I have indicated.

With regard to housing stock in local authorities, is that something the Department monitors? A considerable number of houses are currently boarded up and not allocated. Therefore, there is a loss of rent and potential accommodation for the thousands of people on the housing list. How does the Department monitor that in each local authority and ensure there is a turnover in the housing stock, so when houses are vacant they are allocated quickly? Is there a trend whereby local authorities are finding it difficult to provide the funding to refurbish these vacant houses as they become vacant and therefore cannot let them within a reasonable length of time? Is that an issue?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

From a local authority point of view, internal capital receipts are much lower than they would have been a number of years ago because, for example, there are no housing sales. We monitor vacancies on an annual basis through the service indicators report, so we have figures year on year for the vacancy rate in the local government system. In the last service indicators for 2011 the rate for vacant housing was 3.15% or approximately 4,000 houses in the system. In 2012, we spent a significant amount of money under our energy efficiency and remedial works programme targeting vacant dwellings to try to bring them back into service. We allowed a grant of up to €18,000 per house or 90% of the cost. Under that scheme over 2,500 houses were improved to be brought back into effective use. We are now investing in insulation and draught proofing.

However, it is a reality that there is that level of 3% to 4% vacancy in any year, according to our service indicators. There are a variety of reasons for that and they are not always related exclusively to inefficiency on the part of the local authority. It can be the case that housing estates become unpopular. There has been some media coverage in recent times of the extent to which prospective tenants refuse offers of accommodation or can have unrealistic expectations in terms of the choice of accommodation. It is a live issue in the local government system as to how many offers of accommodation one can have without suffering a penalty in terms of one's position on the list.

With regard to policy, it appears that the direction social housing is taking is rent allowance and the rental accommodation scheme. The authorities are not buying or building new schemes.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We are not building or buying to the same extent as in the past. However, that is not to say we do not build. There is a construction programme, particularly via the approved housing bodies for special needs where appropriate accommodation might not be able to be sourced in the private market. At the same time it is a big concern for us that we have optimal use of the existing housing stock.

Is the Department approaching the end of the costs of tribunals now? The Department was responsible for the Mahon tribunal.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Yes, we are responsible for the Mahon tribunal. We hope we are coming towards the end of costs for that tribunal.

What has it cost to date?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

In the period since the report was published Judge Mahon has been assessing costs in the period of 2003-8. Costs rulings have been made in respect of two thirds of the bills arising in the 2003-8 period.

The overall cost of the tribunal that has been met from the Department's Vote up to the end of 2011 is €97.35 million. Adding the overall cost to 31 May this year, it is €101.3 million from the Department's Vote. As the Comptroller and Auditor General pointed out on a previous occasion, there are also costs arising at State level, outside the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. They were estimated at approximately €12 million. The State costs were for accommodation in Dublin Castle and so forth. The spend up to the end of May 2013 from the Department's Vote is €101.3 million. We communicated with the committee secretariat last year regarding the estimated overall costs. They stand at approximately €196 million.

The Environmental Protection Agency monitors local authorities and pollution. Does it have any cases against local authorities or how does it manage that complaint system?

Ms Laura Burke

We have a national environmental complaints line, which is for members of the public to make complaints regarding issues in their area. That is managed by the local authorities. With regard to our function, if we were not satisfied with the performance of a local authority in a particular instance, we would issue directions against it which are legally binding. That has happened, for example, in the context of drinking water. We also have a role in licensing facilities that are operated by local authorities, for example, landfills. If we were not satisfied regarding a landfill operation, we could take a prosecution against it and we have done that in a number of instances.

What about treatment plants and the pollution of rivers? I presume that is in the agency's remit.

Ms Laura Burke

Yes. Since 2007 we have a role in the licensing of all urban wastewater treatment plants.

So far we have issued just under 500 certificates of authorisation for smaller plants which have a population equivalent of fewer than 500 and approximately 250 licenses for facilities which would be anywhere above that. They include those up to and including the Ringsend type of plant. With regard to those plants we have issued one prosecution for not applying for a certificate of authorisation from us, which is an offence. There are two prosecutions pending.

Generally speaking, do local authorities get their houses in order when the EPA approaches them?

Ms Laura Burke

I think there is a combination. For example, significant investment is needed for urban wastewater treatment plants. In the context of Irish Water up to €600 million a year is very welcome because there is an infrastructure deficit. An element of capital investment is needed but significant operational improvements are also needed. Last year of the incidents reported from urban wastewater treatment facilities to the EPA, approximately 40% were due to the management of the facilities. Local authorities under those licensing regimes are required to improve the management of facilities and I believe they are doing so.

How does Ms Tallon find local authorities in this area?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We have given a very high priority to investment for environmental purposes. Under our water services investment programme our priorities relate to environmental compliance and economic development. To comply with the EU action we had over a number of years in regard to water quality we have invested in a remedial action list. Identified schemes on the list include water supplies identified by the EPA through its monitoring and oversight. We target them in investment terms. That has been a positive development.

We would accept that, as I said, investment in water has had to reduce over the past number of years. A number of plants are operating at full capacity or over capacity. There is a pollution risk in those circumstances. We have quite a large number of wastewater facilities which are new and modern, and provided under design, build and operate contracts. They tend to be well operated. One can sometimes see a comparison between plants operated, albeit at a cost, through design, build and operate costs and plants operated within the traditional local authority system.

It is a successful model of operation and funding.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Yes.

The Chairman chartered new territory in the meeting and I wish to ask a few related questions. I will not question Ms Tallon on the following point because I do not think it is appropriate. Was she aware of the meeting we had yesterday?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I am aware of it. I had it on in the background, but I was preparing for today.

We were very much present in her day yesterday. It is not appropriate for me to question her on the contents of what we heard yesterday and I will not do so. I ask that she read the transcript of what was discussed. It is deeply relevant to the testimony of the Department on this issue in the past. It would be beneficial for the work she does if she had the opportunity to do that.

I refer to the points made by the Chairman. A debt figure of €4.9 billion for local authorities was mentioned. She mentioned she had a traffic light view on that. Is the debt situation concentrated in a number of local authorities or is it evenly allocated across the country?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

It is not evenly allocated across the country. Some authorities are wealthy and others are poor.

Within that €4.9 billion would any authorities bear a disproportionate share of the indebtedness?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I do not think I have the complete distribution of historical debt here. There are authorities which we would watch very closely in terms of their financial position. This is not a secret. Sligo County Council, Limerick County Council, Offaly County Council and Donegal County Council have had problems historically in the debt area. Meath has had a problem with debt. A number of authorities have had capacity over recent years. One can see on an annual basis that they are not continuing to dig a deeper hole. I put Meath and Donegal in that category. On an annual basis one can see a small operating surplus, but if one looks at the historical base one will find they still have significant millstones round their necks from accumulated debt over a longer period of time.

I have a related question on the point made by the Chairman on the limited companies which may be related to local authorities. Is the indebtedness of any such limited companies included in the figures Ms Tallon gave to the committee?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I am not entirely sure whether they are.

Given the scale of some of these companies, if any of them were indebted would it register in the indebtedness situation of the local authority or does it sit elsewhere?

Mr. Colm Lavery

As I mentioned earlier, in the 2012 annual financial statements local authorities in the appendices will be required to report on the companies in which they have an involvement.

If a local authority set up an organisation to fulfil a particular objective and it incurred a degree of debt for whatever reason, would that indebtedness be included in the figure the local authority reports to the Department?

Mr. Colm Lavery

It would not be included in the figure of €4.9 billion to which we referred.

Do we have a separate track of what the figures are or whether there is a figure?

Mr. Colm Lavery

No, it is not available to the Department. These are limited companies.

Do we know if there is a problem?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

As I said, the principal auditor raised it as an issue in his activity report for 2011. We intend to have discussions with local authorities on the broad findings of the activity report 2011. This will feature as an issue.

Is anybody flagging a problem at the moment? Some of the organisations involved are very large. I am not alleging or inferring anything, rather I am seeking to understand the situation.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

It is a useful signal given to us by the local government auditor. In having looked at the audits across the local government system he said the numbers and scale of activity in terms of wholly-owned limited companies is significant. It is a matter which has been placed on the radar. What we do about it is another issue we have to consider.

Is there a process under way to find out the current position regarding debt in separate organisations?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The process would be that having signalled it as a crosscutting issue in his activity report in 2011, the local government auditor would have asked the auditor for each local authority area to probe a bit deeper in their 2012 audits.

I would expect, therefore, to see further commentary from the local government auditor arising from the 2012 audits. In the meantime, it is one of the issues I intend to raise at our next meeting with the executive of the County and City Managers Association. Those meetings take place on a fairly frequent basis, and the next one will be the first since the activity report was published. The issues that were identified in the report will be raised in that context, and managers will be asked to follow up in their own areas.

Has the issue of ghost estates been discussed, Chairman? If so, I will not raise it.

The Deputy may ask a brief question.

Thank you, Chairman. Where do we stand in terms of the remaining number of estates and the response by the Department?

Mr. Michael Layde

We will be producing our annual report in the coming weeks, which will bring the data in this regard up to date. We have made very significant progress on this issue. Referring back to an earlier part of the discussion, that progress is evidenced by the decline in the number of estates eligible for the local property tax waiver compared with the corresponding figure for the household charge. This is testament to the work that has been done in the meantime. Our public safety initiative was designed to deal with immediate problems where there was an actual risk to individuals living on these estates. The emphasis now is on developing site resolution plans and bringing estates to the point where their position can effectively be regularised. The Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, will be launching a programme of support in this regard in the coming weeks.

In regard to the tribunals, which the Chairman touched on, we have discussed at previous meetings the question of claims that have not yet been invoiced. Is the Department awaiting any such outstanding bills?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We are awaiting a significant number of bills. The Mahon tribunal has cost the Department €101 million so far, but we estimate the overall cost to be €196 million or thereabouts. Since the publication of the report of the tribunal, the chairman has been ruling on the eligibility of third-party cost applications for the 2003 to 2008 period. We understand he has ruled on some two thirds of those applications. The number of claims the Department has received, at 22, represents approximately 14% of the claims that have thus far been deemed eligible, which, as I said, is some two thirds of the total. We can expect, therefore, that a significant number of bills are yet to be submitted. To reiterate, Judge Mahon has, as I understand it, ruled on two thirds of applications, of which less than one fifth have actually been presented to the State at this point.

Has this already been covered in the meeting, Chairman?

It was covered the last day, but it is important.

Yes, it is. Ms Tallon has narrowed the terms of reference of my question in a very helpful way. When we discussed this issue on the previous occasion, the point was made that the State cannot be invoiced for costs which have not yet been ruled upon. Ms Tallon has indicated that of the two thirds of claims in respect of which rulings have been made, we have been invoiced for less than one fifth of them. What cash amounts are we talking about here?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

The total value of the 22 claims we have received is €3.5 million.

To clarify, is Ms Tallon referring to 22 invoices?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Yes, there have been 22 individual claims. Until a year or so ago, we automatically sent such claims for review by legal cost accountants, because there is a legacy to be dealt with from a number of tribunals. The Department of the Taoiseach then reviewed the process and it was decided that the legal costs unit of the State Claims Agency would deal with the legal costs arising from all the tribunals. As such, the standard procedure now is to transfer all claims from the Department to that unit.

Of the 22 claims received, seven have been settled. We are very happy with the service from the State Claims Agency in this regard. It is working quite quickly on the claims, perhaps at a better pace than we had previously been experiencing. Moreover, it has achieved a 52% reduction in costs on the claims it has settled.

Will Ms Tallon elaborate on that process? What happens after Judge Mahon makes a ruling on costs?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

As I understand it, Judge Mahon rules that a claim for costs is eligible, but he does not rule on the quantum. He may, however, make certain findings that will limit the quantum where, for example, he rules that the costs are eligible for X% of time rather than Y% of time.

After Judge Mahon determines that a claim is the eligible, an invoice is submitted to the Department. The latter passes it on to the State Claims Agency which examines the cost to determine whether it is fair. Is that correct?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Yes.

Ms Tallon indicated that the State Claims Agency has achieved a reduction, in the claims it has settled, in the costs sought.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Yes, it has reduced the figures sought in the seven claims settled. The amount claimed in total was €215,339, but the amount paid was €103,098, which is a reduction of just over €112,000.

The agency has succeeded in reducing the cost by one half.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Yes

In the case of the remaining 86% of claims deemed eligible by Judge Mahon, no invoice has yet been submitted to the Department. Is there any indication of the cost associated with that portion of claims?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We do not know. The figures we had from the tribunal last year included a broad estimate of some €6 million in total outstanding third-party costs. We have thus far had claims totalling €3 million. I cannot confirm the reliability or otherwise of the figure of €6 million until the bills materialise.

The claims in question cover the period from 2003 to 2008. When did Judge Mahon make the ruling on eligibility?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

He began to make rulings once the final report of the tribunal was published.

Was that in 2011?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

It was 2012.

Why are claimants failing to submit invoices? This is an issue that keeps coming up.

Mr. Michael Layde

Judge Mahon began to make rulings in 2012.

One presumes there will be a stream of claims.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I expect they will come in now that the rulings are being made - since summer 2012. With regard to whether one can ask for them to be sent in quickly, I understand that once a ruling on eligibility is made, there is a period of six years within which people are entitled to make their claims. I wondered whether we could impose a time limit, but was told "No" that a period of six years is allowed. I might be taking a flyer on this, but I would tend to say that the longer people delay sending in bills, the more sceptical the State should be when the bill finally comes.

Absolutely, because we are referring to work that was done between 2003 and 2008. It is quite conceivable that an invoice exists for work that was done in 2003 and the bill has not come in for that yet. That is a decade ago. When that bill comes in-----

Ms Geraldine Tallon

It is not entirely fair to apportion blame for a ten-year delay to the person who did the work ten years ago, because the Mahon tribunal took the decision to park the question of cost eligibility until the final report was produced. The rulings were given for the period 1998 to 2002, but at that stage the tribunal decided to park the remaining costs, from 2003-2008, until the final report was completed. Therefore, in fairness to people who worked or who feel entitled to claim costs, their eligibility has only been adjudicated on within the past year.

That is a long time, but I realise it is outside Ms Tallon's control. The Department must pay the money, but it is-----

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I am a little concerned about this, because the State must find the money to meet this cost. We do not tend to like to feel that things are unquantifiable or cannot be nailed down within a reasonable time horizon. The State has experience of this kind of legacy from past tribunals, such as the beef tribunal where bills drifted in many years later. I would like to see an orderly conclusion as far as this is concerned. Therefore, I would like to put it on record that the longer the delay in submitting bills, the more sceptical the State should be.

Sure, particularly in light of the evident success the State Claims Agency has in terms of dealing with the bill and adjudicating on the costs. Somebody somewhere in the Department must inevitably think the cost could be X and because that could be the cost, that money cannot be spent on something else or used to reduce our deficit. This slows everything down.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

It inevitably remains an issue for our Estimates and our discussions with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. Inevitably, it must also remain an issue for that Department in terms of known costs.

Is this one of the known unknowns?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Yes, or perhaps the unknown knowns.

This is a known unknown in that we know it exists, but we do not know how much is involved. Until the invoices come in, the State cannot make progress in determining the value of the figure and paying it.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Yes.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

If I could come in on this, it is good practice in financial statements that where there is a contingent liability of this kind, one would try to put an estimate on it. The Department, in note 6.2 of its appropriation account, has put a figure of €99 million as a contingent liability figure at the end of 2011. Therefore, work has been done in this regard. At the prompting of the committee, over the past number of years all Votes have strived to include estimated outstanding liabilities. However, what is not known is the timeframe over which that contingent liability will be met.

I am not being critical of the Department in this regard. Obviously, it takes the same view as I do on the issue. My point is that it is better for everybody if we can move from a contingent liability to an actual liability. Therefore, the Department needs those invoices to come in, now that the ruling has been made that will allow that.

On an unrelated matter, I would like to comment on the superb work that is going on currently in regard to dealing with private rental accommodation throughout the country. I raised the issue previously that the State is making rent supplement payments available to people who need them, but that there are concerns with regard to the quality of accommodation in which some of these people live. I wish to draw attention to the fact that the environmental department of Dublin City Council is doing great work currently on implementing the new guidelines put in place in this area. While some of the statistics on this area are disturbing, where in parts of the city up to 80% of rental property does not meet standard regulations, I wish to recognise the fact the work is now being done and being funded by the Department and that progress is being made on understanding the issue. This is about ensuring we are getting good value for money in the area of rent supplement payments and about ensuring people have access to decent quality accommodation. I commend that work and urge that it be rolled out across the country.

Ms Geraldine Tallon

I thank the Deputy. From our point of view, it is very important work. We are in a transition period now, moving from rent supplement towards the new framework of the housing assistance payment. We are also seeing implementation of the housing standards regulations that were made a couple of years ago. Sub-standard bedsits, in particular, have been an issue in Dublin and other urban areas and it is good to hear that public representatives feel the work is being done in a worthwhile way.

I recognise that it is definitely under way.

I wish to raise a few matters. With regard to local authorities and how much they owe in overdrafts or loans, would it be possible to get a simple sheet listing the authorities in question and their indebtedness?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

We will certainly look at that.

Some of the figures can be complicated when presented in different ways. Could we get the name of the local authority and its overdraft or loan position and information as to whether it has money on hand?

Ms Geraldine Tallon

Yes.

Also, can we have clarification on what Mr. Lavery said? I took it from what he said regarding private companies working at local authority level that the auditor had asked for the local government audit section to look at the situation. In other words, in the 2012 returns there should be some return that would tell us the indebtedness or otherwise of those private companies. Did I pick Mr. Lavery up wrongly on that?

Mr. Colm Lavery

I mentioned this in the context of the 2012 annual financial statements. As the Secretary General has mentioned, the director of the audit service, in its activity report, highlighted the number of these companies that were in existence. In the context of the 2012 annual financial statement, local authorities will be required to report on the companies with which they have an involvement in their annual financial statement, in an appendix.

What will be the extent of such reports? Will each report give clear financial facts to the local authority, to be included in the auditor's report?

Mr. Colm Lavery

Sorry, I do not have the financial statement with me and am unsure of the level of detail.

Can Ms Tallon ensure or put it to them that they should have the clear financial information relevant to the local authorities on those companies. If local authorities are putting money in, they should know what is happening to it.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

As standard good practice, the optimum situation would be full consolidation of the subsidiaries with the local authority.

However, at a minimum one would expect to see is the principal results such as turnover, expenditure, surplus for the year and particularly the balance sheet position being outlined in the financial statements for each subsidiary. I am sure that would probably be the line-----

Ms Geraldine Tallon

That is the direction the local government auditor wants to take.

That will be reflected in the 2012 financial statements.

I thank the witnesses for attending today.

Is it agreed to dispose of Vote 25 - Environment, Community and Local Government; Chapter 27 - environment fund levies; environment fund 2011; local government fund 2011; and Environmental Protection Agency Financial Statements 2011?

Special Report No. 80 will remain open as our work is not completed.

The witnesses withdrew.
The committee adjourned at 1.20 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 4 July 2013.
Top
Share