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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 6 Mar 2014

Chapter 13 - Official Development Assistance

Mr. David Cooney(Secretary General, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade) called and examined.

I ask members, witnesses and those in the Gallery to turn off their mobile phones because they interfere with the sound equipment and the transmission of proceedings. Following last week's meeting, complaints were again received from those responsible for broadcasting proceedings and people who viewed those proceedings to the effect that there was bad interference on sound from mobile phones.

I advise witnesses that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they will be entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside the Houses, or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind Members of the provision within Standing Order 163 that the committee shall also refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

I welcome Mr. David Cooney, Secretary General at the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, and ask him to introduce his officials.

Mr. David Cooney

With me are Mr. Joe Nugent, head of passport services, Mr. John Conlan, our new chief financial officer - I wish to express my gratitude to the committee for its support in respect of this appointment-----

Mr. Cooney is setting a great example.

Mr. David Cooney

-----Mr. Fergal Mythen, head of corporate services, Mr. Brendan Rogers, Deputy Secretary General and head of Irish Aid, Mr. William Carlos, head of our evaluation and audit unit, and Mr. Dermot Quigley, from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

I now ask that the Comptroller and Auditor General deliver his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The key areas of responsibility of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade include foreign policy advice and co-ordination, promotion of Ireland's economic interests abroad, management of the country's development aid programme and the provision of passport and consular services for Irish citizens. The activities and running costs of the Department are funded under Vote 27 and Vote 28.

Gross expenditure under Vote 28 for Foreign Affairs and Trade amounted to €208 million in 2012. Administration subheads accounted for just over 70% of that expenditure. The largest element of this was the salary costs of some 1,260 staff which came to €77 million. Office premises expenses of €22 million included costs associated with Ireland’s network of embassies and missions abroad. The bulk of the non-administrative expenditure related to contributions to international organisations and grants for support services for Irish emigrants. Receipts into the Vote comprised mainly fees related to issue of passports and visas, and other consular services.

The net supply grant for the Vote in 2012 was €182.2 million. The outturn for the year was €160.4 million. The surplus of over €21 million was liable for surrender to the Exchequer.

In the course of audit it was noted that the Department paid Ireland’s subscriptions for membership of the UN for both 2012 and 2013 in 2012. The invoice for the 2013 subscription, amounting to $10.65 million, was issued on 27 December 2012, with 30 days to pay. Full payment was made on 31 December 2012.

Members may wish to note that the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform’s public finance procedures require that payments charged to appropriation accounts should be made only where a liability has matured for payment. This principle is designed to ensure that the accounts properly present payments that have come in course of payment in the year of account. The rules also state that Departments should take optimum advantage of credit terms when making payments. If that payment to the UN had not been made so promptly, the amount liable for surrender from the Vote would have been €8.1 million higher.

Vote 27 for international co-operation is administered by the Department’s development co-operation division and funds the majority of Ireland’s programme of assistance to developing countries. Spending under that Vote came to €509 million, accounting for over 80% of the development aid provided by Ireland in 2012.

Chapter 13 was compiled to provide an overview of Ireland’s official development assistance programme, and of how it is delivered, monitored and reported. The total programme spend in 2012 was €629 million. As the committee is aware, the UN has a long-standing target for developed countries to contribute development aid equivalent to 0.7% of GNP annually. Ireland’s programme expenditure was 0.47% of GNP in 2012, down from a peak level of 0.59%. Only five countries met or exceeded the UN target in 2012.

Development aid is channelled through a variety of partner organisations including Government bodies, non-governmental organisations, civil society organisations and multilateral aid agencies. The delivery channel used in each partner country depends on the type of assistance required and the political and administrative conditions that exist in the country.

Given the nature of development aid and the context in which it is delivered, the risk of fraud, corruption and misappropriation will always be significant factors to be taken into account in devising an aid delivery strategy. For that reason, the chapter examines the key controls in operation in respect of the development aid programme.

The Department has in place a specialist evaluation and audit unit that aims to provide assurance that funds are used for their intended purpose and that value for money is achieved. The primary focus of the unit’s audit work is on assessment of the appropriateness and reliability of the accounting and financial management systems of the partner organisations through which aid is delivered. The work of the unit is overseen by the Department’s Audit Committee.

A key element of the Irish Aid programme is targeted delivery of assistance to a small number of selected partner countries. Since 2011, the unit has carried out formal assessments of the public financial management systems in the partner countries. These assessments encompass all elements of governance, including accounting, auditing, reporting and local parliamentary oversight, and with a particular emphasis on assessing the status, independence and capacity of the national audit office. The policy is to carry out two such assessments during each five year strategic plan for partner countries. The first assessment is carried out at the planning stage, concentrating on the risks associated with channelling funds through government systems. The second assessment is carried out at the mid-point of the five year plan, focusing in particular on any changes to the public financial management environment.

Audit coverage in regard to annual expenditure in partner countries is achieved through a combination of work carried out by the Department’s own internal auditors, audits commissioned by Irish Aid or by partner organisations, and reports produced by national audit offices in recipient countries. The Department examines all the audit reports as they become available to identify issues relevant to Irish aid expenditure, but the reports vary in content, approach and timing. As a result it can be challenging to compile a comprehensive and timely view of how well Irish funding is controlled and applied.

The evaluation and audit unit also carries out formal evaluations of aid programmes on a cyclical basis, co-ordinated with its strategic planning and with formal procedures to track and follow up on recommendations. Formal evaluations were completed in 2012 of the country strategy papers for Ethiopia, Lesotho and South Africa.

Following on from the identification in October 2012 of misappropriation of €11.6 million in donor funding in Uganda, including €4 million from Irish Aid, the chapter also considered the effectiveness of the Department’s control systems in that country, and its response to the case.

The misappropriation came to public attention through a report of the Ugandan Auditor General. We concluded that, given the Department’s presence on the ground in Uganda and the scope for information sharing with other donors, the Department should have been aware of concerns in regard to funding provided through government systems prior to the publication of the auditor general’s report.

More generally, there appears to be scope for improvement in the Department’s capacity to identify early signs of a deteriorating risk environment in a partner country. For that purpose, I recommended that the Department should implement a risk dashboard system for key partner countries, based on key risk indicators. This should assist the Department to identify emerging risks and to take appropriate action at an early stage.

Since the discovery of the fraud in Uganda, the Department has undertaken a number of initiatives aimed at improving the controls in key partner countries. Those initiatives included carrying out a review of the systems in place in all partner countries and appointing a chief risk officer within the Department. At an overall level, the Department’s response to the fraud in Uganda appears to have been appropriate and proportionate. The Department was refunded the full amount of the loss by the Government of Uganda, before the end of 2012.

I thank Mr. McCarthy. I invite Mr. Cooney to make his opening statement.

Mr. David Cooney

I thank the Chairman for inviting me to assist the committee in its consideration of the 2012 Appropriation Accounts for the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and also Chapter 13 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's 2012 report on official development assistance. I introduced them earlier but I am joined by colleagues who have particular knowledge of the aspects of the Department's work that may be helpful to the committee.

As I said earlier, I want to place on record my appreciation for the support of the committee in the appointment of a chief financial officer, which is a very positive development for the Department. I would like to thank also the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform for facilitating the creation of this post. Mr. Conlon will head an integrated departmental finance unit covering Votes 27 and 28, and I am confident that his engagement will improve the coherence, continuity and efficiency of the finance function across the Department.

I know the committee has been supplied with some general briefing on the Department and its activities. This material provides a factual summary of the main areas of departmental expenditure and receipts in 2012, and I do not propose to introduce it orally. Instead, it might be helpful if I briefly address some important developments since I last appeared before the committee in December 2012.

The Department has prioritised the national effort to rebuild Ireland's international standing after the financial crisis. Considerable progress has been made since we last met. Our successful EU Presidency in the first half of last year, together with our exit from the EU-IMF programme, was a major milestone.

The Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade in its recently published report on the contribution of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade to economic recovery kindly acknowledged our efforts. To maintain this positive momentum internationally, the Government has decided to expand the diplomatic network with the addition of eight new missions, including five new embassies and three new consulates general to be established in locations across south-east Asia, Europe, Africa and the Americas. The expansion is designed specifically to assist in promoting our economic and commercial interests abroad and takes account of the recently published review of the Government's trade, tourism and investment strategy.

The recently announced year-long programme of ministerial-led events targeting trade and investment for Ireland in 2014 will be supported strongly by the Department. The programme includes the Government's St. Patrick's Day Promote Ireland programme of international activity which will see 27 Ministers taking part in more than 100 business events and 80 high level political meetings in 35 cities across 23 countries.

Since our last meeting, we have seen the successful conclusion of Ireland's chairmanship in office of the OSCE, which culminated in the hosting of the OSCE ministerial council meeting in Dublin in December 2012 and the commencement of our term on the United Nations Human Rights Council. The budgetary and human resources situation facing the Department continues to be challenging, as is the case throughout the public service. The combined allocation of the foreign affairs Votes 27 and 28 continues to decline. It was more than €1 billion in 2008 and is €691 million in 2014, which is a reduction of 36%. We continue to face severe difficulties due to staff reductions. I am pleased to report that we have recently concluded a successful recruitment competition for third secretaries, which is the entry level grade for the diplomatic service. This is a welcome development which will assist us greatly to meet the challenge of establishing the eight new missions in the course of the year.

Vote 27 is directed to international co-operation. The annual overseas development aid allocation represents an ongoing and very significant Irish contribution to international development. Our last discussion with the committee took place against the background of a serious case of misappropriation of Irish Aid funds in Uganda, which was uncovered by the Auditor General of that state. A team of auditors from the Department's independent evaluation and audit unit was sent to investigate, and its report was subsequently made public. A key finding of the investigation was that the fraud was sophisticated and elaborate, involving an exceptionally high level of collusion at senior level which could not reasonably or normally have been anticipated. The report also highlighted a number of important areas in which Irish Aid's own management control systems needed to be strengthened.

This led to my request early last year for the conduct by the Department's evaluation and audit unit of a full review of all our internal control and risk management systems across the bilateral aid programme to ensure risks were being identified and managed appropriately. This was a major undertaking. It has been completed in respect of all nine key priority countries. All of the recommendations made in the report of these audits have been accepted by management. The report and management's response have been published online in compliance with good practice. The report was positive overall but highlighted a number of areas in which improvements are necessary to strengthen further our systems of management and financial control. I am pleased that actions have already been taken by us to strengthen our systems. This process will continue.

I am pleased to note that the final report into the misappropriation in Uganda has been published on our website. The report concludes that all of the recommendations made at the interim report stage have either been fully met or are the subject of satisfactory progress to address issues. The report also includes an assessment of systems and internal controls now in place in our mission in Uganda and concludes that these are good and appropriate for the programme. I visited Africa twice last year in follow-up to the reported fraud. I went to Zambia in February where I met heads of our development missions to discuss the lessons of the fraud for the development programme and stress the need for vigilance. In July, I visited Uganda itself where I met local officials and embassy staff and looked at aspects of the programme.

During the first half of this year, our aid programme is undergoing a searching peer review by the OECD's Development Assistance Committee. This arises approximately every five years and provides a valuable internationally benchmarked and independent assessment of the programme against best international practice. It also serves as a mechanism of public accountability and institutional learning. The result of the review will be published later in the year. The committee will have a great interest in its findings. I appreciate the committee's involvement with the programme and its visit to another programme country, which provided great support. The committee's interrogation is an added aspect of our efforts to ensure our programme incorporates best possible practice. It is absolutely right that our aid programme, which is paid for by the people, is subject to intense scrutiny. The committee's work is central to that. That level of examination enables our work programme to continue to make a real and tangible difference to the lives of millions of the poorest people in the world. I will do my best with colleagues to respond to any questions posed by members of the committee.

May we publish your statement?

Mr. David Cooney

Certainly.

I heard the Tánaiste speak in the Dáil a couple of days ago about the new missions. He said the centre of economic gravity is shifting to the east. He spoke about the further development of our presence in the United States of America and a reconfiguration of our approach in Africa. He spoke about new missions in, for example, Indonesia. Can we go through the continents? It relates to the Vote. Mr. Cooney mentioned that we will have five new embassies and three new consulates. Where are we going to have them? That would be interesting to know. Where are we shutting down? That would also be interesting to know. What is the rationale for the shift?

Mr. David Cooney

The Government decided to open eight new missions which comprised five embassies and three consulates general. We have 73 missions with a further two in Armagh and Belfast. In addition to the eight openings, the Government decided to close the embassy in Lesotho. The rationale behind that closure is that while we have had a programme there of very long standing, there are absorption capacities in Lesotho. It has become a middle income country and is the most wealthy country per capita among those in which we have aid missions. The assessment after consideration was that the remaining programme in Lesotho could be handled effectively from South Africa. Pretoria is very close. We will maintain a small office but it will not be staffed by headquarters staff. It will be staffed by a local employee. The rationale is sound although it is never a happy occasion to close an embassy or to pull out of a country with which we have had a long relationship. In terms of rationalisation, we felt the resources could be used better elsewhere.

In terms of the embassies we are opening, the emphasis is on Asia where three of the missions will be located. We will have embassies in Indonesia and Thailand and a consulate general in Hong Kong. The lack of embassies in Indonesia and Thailand has represented a significant gap in our service. Certainly, pressure has been applied through the Global Irish Network and the three meetings of the forum have all pointed to this absence. I am delighted to be able to plug that gap. Indonesia is a huge country with enormous potential. Thailand is a very significant economy. Having missions on the ground in those states will allow us to exploit to a much greater extent the economic potential there. The decisions to open the missions have been welcomed greatly by the Irish communities in those countries but also by the agencies. The absence to date of a consulate general in Hong Kong has been a significant gap in our network of missions. There is huge potential there.

We feel we will be able to exploit that considerably working with the agencies, which are in Hong Kong. We think that having an embassy will assist in dealing with Chinese authorities. They are very focused on the state. It is very difficult for companies to do business in China even in a place like Hong Kong without the backing and presence of the state.
Moving on to the US, we have been very pleased with the activities of the consulate general we opened in Atlanta a few years ago. It has made a real difference on a very small budget. One career consul is in that consulate.

What does Mr. Cooney mean when he says it has made a difference?

Mr. David Cooney

It has made a difference on the ground in respect of the reach we are able to achieve regarding interaction with business. Atlanta is a very significant hub for business. Certainly, the feedback we have got from the agencies and business presence on the ground is that this has made a big difference to the profile of Ireland. Texas is the same. It is a very significant economy that is bigger than many national economies around the world. Putting someone into Austin, which is the political capital of Texas, will help us significantly. We decided on Austin rather than Houston. Other countries have gone to Houston but they tend to be countries that have a significant interest in the oil business which, unfortunately, is not a business in which we have a high profile. Our analysis was that we would be better focused on Austin. Again, for a very small outlay, we expect to get a decent return from that.

We have an embassy in Brasilia. Brazil is a huge country but São Paulo is the economic capital. The agencies do not have a particularly big presence there. Enterprise Ireland has a part-time presence. I think it is a Portuguese national who is operating on the ground in São Paulo. We think this will make a significant difference in establishing an Irish profile in São Paulo, which is non-existent at the moment. Brazil is a huge country with a huge and growing economy. One cannot operate consulates without first having a embassy, which we have. However, the embassy is in the centre of the country and is some distance from São Paulo so we think having a small mission on the ground will make a significant difference for us.

Kenya is the economic powerhouse of east Africa. We do not have an embassy in Kenya. We are re-opening one that closed many years ago. I think it was back in the 1980s.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

It was 1988.

Mr. David Cooney

It is the economic powerhouse of Africa and an economy that is growing significantly. Clearly, it will be different in profile compared to our embassies in Tanzania or Uganda, which are mainly development-focused. We see the Kenya mission as looking at development and having a significant role in promoting business with the region. As we can see in a country like Kenya, promoting business is a significant aspect of development. People who suggest that development and business are totally separate are making a big mistake. We have seen from this country that we only really achieved significant social and economic development when our economy grew. One can pour all the money in the world into-----

I agree with Mr. Cooney. However, the fact that we have opened an embassy in Africa for that reason is a pretty significant shift when one considers our recent history and the reasons that we set up missions in our programme countries. It is a significant shift to do it for those reasons.

Mr. David Cooney

I agree with Deputy Deasy. It reflects the Africa strategy and the work we have been doing. If one looks at the different stages, with an absolute disaster, humanitarian aid is going in to keep people alive. One then moves on to development where one is trying to get basic development going but then one moves on to trying to stimulate and assist with economic development. We also have a mission in Nigeria which is mainly focused on economic matters.

Croatia is completing our network of missions in EU countries which I said here before is absolutely crucial to Ireland. Every EU member state has a vote in the EU institutions - a vote that has a direct impact on the lives of Irish people. We need to be in contact with the institutions, parliaments and government departments in those countries to intervene. We had a value-for-money review of our missions in EU countries over the course of the last year. The report is available. It involved our own evaluation. An audit unit was chaired by an independent chairman and included representatives of various Government Departments, including the Departments of Public Expenditure and Reform, the Taoiseach and Finance. That report, which is a quite thorough and a very good piece of work, came to the conclusion that our missions in EU countries were value for money and that we should have a mission in every EU state.

Mr. Cooney mentioned eight missions. Are we including the Holy See in this?

Mr. David Cooney

No, I will come to the Holy See last. That is a separate case. Croatia will have a small one-diplomat mission. We are at the cutting edge of trying to develop new forms of diplomatic representation at a low cost. Our one-person missions have attracted quite a lot of interest from other EU member states who are interested in seeing how we can operate them. The report on the EU missions pointed out that another one-person mission is not all good news. There are stresses and pressures on a one-person mission and expectations that are difficult to achieve. We are looking at the one-person missions network to ensure we can maintain it at an effective level and provide the necessary support. It is a good idea that is working but, understandably, these missions need a bit more support from home than if they were larger missions.

I know why the embassy to the Holy See was closed. It was genuinely closed for cost reasons but it is interesting that nobody in the world believes me so I am very happy to go on the record to explain why it was closed and re-opened. It is very interesting. People are very reluctant to believe something if it does not conform with their beliefs or prejudices or the need for a good story. It was closed for cost-cutting reasons in 2011. We carried out an analysis of how we could find savings. Every Government Department was required to find savings at the time. The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade only has two ways of making savings. We either cut the aid budget or we close embassies. I believe very firmly that had we offered significant cuts in the aid budget at that time, it would have been an ongoing process of significant cuts. The Tánaiste was very keen to protect the aid programme. I think he had considerable support for that so, therefore, we had to look at closing embassies. There were those who suggested that we should close embassies in EU countries. Again, I believe that had we closed embassies in EU countries, I do not know how many we would have lost by now. We needed to protect that network which left very few alternatives. The embassy to the Holy See was closed because it was genuinely believed, and I believe this is right, that the relationship could be most effectively handled on a non-residential and care and maintenance basis. I hoped that it could be re-opened in due course when the situation improved and that has been the case.

We have reopened it. I think there is a considerable attachment to the relationship with the Holy See among a considerable portion of the population; that was made clear. Also the direction and the leadership of Pope Francis in relation to issues of hunger and poverty very much chime with our own policy. The Tánaiste recommended to the Government that we reopen the Embassy to the Holy See. Again it will be on a very modest basis. It will be a one-diplomat mission.

We have saved, in the meantime, a considerable amount of money. The Villa Spada, which was one of our biggest embassies and which was the location for the residence and the chancery to the Holy See, is now the residence and the chancery for the Embassy to the Italian Republic, to Italy. It contains a much larger number of staff members. It is used far more intensively. It is now used very thoroughly. Ironically, of course, the Villa Spada is where Garibaldi made his last stand against the French at the time of the Roman Republic. It is an iconic building from the point of view of the Italian Republic and perhaps more appropriately hosts that embassy.

When will it reopen?

Mr. David Cooney

It will reopen over the summer. Hopefully in the next month or so the Government will decide on the appointment of ambassadors. The new embassy will be located modestly. We saved €435,000 in rent that we were spending on the accommodation of the embassy to Italy. We will be accommodating the Embassy to the Holy See for considerably less when it is reopened.

On the subject of presence, I wish to ask about Crimea. Somebody helpfully pointed out to me that the Department has an advisory note on its website about Ukraine. De we know how many Irish nationals are in Ukraine or how many are in Crimea? What kind of system do we have if there is a serious problem in that area?

Mr. David Cooney

At the moment we have as far as possible established there are no Irish citizens in Ukraine, other than, obviously, reporters from the media who go there. However, we have not been able to identify any Irish citizen resident in Ukraine. It does not mean to say they might not be there, but we are not aware of anybody. Nobody has been notified to us. Nobody has notified themselves to us. We have an ambassador to Ukraine. It is a non-resident ambassador, based in Prague. They have been going to Kiev on a regular basis over the last few weeks.

We have an online system where we ask citizens to register to us in all countries so that we have as good an idea as possible of how many citizens we have in each country. At the moment we have no special arrangement in place. We co-operate very closely with our EU partners and there is no move under way to arrange for the evacuation of citizens at the moment.

Is Mr. Cooney saying he is not aware of any Irish nationals in Ukraine apart from journalists?

Mr. David Cooney

Not Ukraine. I did not say Ukraine. If I did, I apologise - Crimea. If I said Ukraine, I apologise; it is Crimea I was referring to.

I am glad I clarified that.

I refer to the Synthesis report. As I understand the process after what happened in Uganda, the heads of mission reviewed their own programmes; there was a meeting and they dealt with common themes. After what the Comptroller and Auditor General reported on in 2012 with regard to a risk dashboard, this is the report and recommendations we arrived at. Some of these recommendations are pretty obvious and one would question whether we should not have been doing these anyway. Point 5.4 states: "The overall finding is that there are weaknesses in this area with insufficient elaboration of the flow of funds and structures around the management of complex modalities". Did we find anything else when these missions undertook their own internal reviews, when there were comparisons? While we were investigating for this report, published in February, did we find anything else about which we should be worried within our systems and procedures in any programme country?

Mr. David Cooney

I will respond and with agreement I might ask my colleagues Mr. Rogers and Mr. Carlos to speak. When we came here in December 2012, we had all been very shaken by what had happened in Uganda. We put our hand up at the time and said we had already identified areas where things could have been done better by ourselves. We followed up very robustly. When we came here the last time, the interim report of the evaluation audit unit had already been published. Following that, the first thing to say is that we got the money back, very significantly due to the efforts of Mr. Brendan Rogers and our ambassador.

I apologise for cutting across Mr. Cooney. Did we not get more than the money back? Am I right in saying that because of the currency exchange rate, we actually achieved more than the €4 million as it turned out?

Mr. David Cooney

Yes, they gave us back the same Ugandan shillings but it turned out that exchange rates in the meantime meant that the Ugandan shillings were worth a little bit more in terms of euro than we had actually given it.

How much did we make?

Mr. David Cooney

It may have paid for some of the airfares down there to try to sort out the mess. So I do not feel too bad about it.

So we made €100,000 on the deal; we got our money back and we made €100,000 on top of it.

Mr. David Cooney

We got our money back, but, as I said, there have certainly been costs involved in following up on the mess that was created by the Ugandans in the first place. However, we got more back than we gave them; that is true.

We got the money back. We asked the embassies to review their risks situation and their procedures. We had a meeting with the heads of mission in Lusaka. Mr. Rogers, Mr. Carlos and I went through it and emphasised the need for vigilance. We effectively pointed out that we needed to make sure that we upped our game in terms of vigilance. The evaluation and audit unit carried out its inspections of the various missions. We had the nine missions and that has arrived at the Synthesis report, which is before us.

I went out, as I said earlier, to Kampala in July where I met the Attorney General and the Minister at the department of foreign affairs. In addition to the Synthesis report, we have also had the final report of the evaluation and audit unit into the fraud in Uganda. The two reports that have just appeared and which members of the committee have, the Synthesis report and the final report of the evaluation and audit unit into the fraud in Uganda, represent an impressive piece of work. Our evaluation and audit unit is independent of the development co-operation division and independent of Irish Aid. It is important that it can call it as it finds it and that it points out failings. As I said when I was here the last time, if there are failings, I am much happier that they are pointed out and I do not mind them being pointed out because if we do not face up to them, confront them and deal with them, we surely will fail again.

I wish to go through the process here. The report has just been published and obviously the Comptroller and Auditor General would not have had a chance to go through the report and the effect of the recommendations. He has not had a chance to review and analyse it. However, the process is that he would review these recommendations from the report which he instigated.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

We will assess the implications of the recommendations and take them into account in forming our opinion on the financial statements for 2013.

I refer to recommendation No. 3 which states that a diagrammatic flow of funds for all grants to partners should be prepared at country level that will clearly illustrate the flow of funds from initial disbursement to final beneficiary. This would seem to be obvious and one would ask why this procedure was not in place previous to this. Is that a fair question?

Mr. David Cooney

I think there are matters which have been highlighted about which one would wonder why they were not done. I refer to the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. He picked us up on the fact that in his view we should have been informed earlier of the reports of the deterioration of the situation in Uganda. I cannot argue with that. I fully accept the Comptroller and Auditor General's proposal that we should have a risk dashboard put in place and we are working on that. I agree that perhaps we should have had systems in place before. That is the value of these reports. I refer to paragraph 6 of the Synthesis report which sets out a number of proposals, some of which one might legitimately say we should have had in place. I do not mind accepting that there were weaknesses and if there were, I am glad they have been pointed out and we will put them right. Mr. Brendan Rogers is responsible for this area and he may have a different perspective to me.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

I do not think so. I agree that those questions are fair. The Synthesis report is a summary of nine reports, reflecting the significant work carried out since we last met in December 2013. Uganda has been visited approximately 12 times. I have been to Uganda three times. It has been very intensive work. The reports cover the nine programme countries and they conclude that the systems are fairly strong and pretty adequate in a lot of cases but like every forensic audit, there are all kinds of gaps and areas that need to be strengthened.

The Department has accepted all those recommendations. Standardisation of the management systems is where the greatest gap occurs. The management systems were reasonably strong but they had grown separately under different heads of missions and different personnel. We have to implement a standardised system. These recommendations are telling us to standardise the management systems, the floor funds, the MOUs and the work with NGOs. As a result we have established a task group which is chaired by the head of our programme-country section. Over the next few months we will be working very hard to ensure that when we next meet the committee, there will be a very high-level strong and standardised system in place. Some of this will involve cross-learning because some of the missions have done excellent work and we need to cross-fertilise that learning into the other systems.

I refer to the Uganda programme for 2013. Apart from €300,000 which is being examined by the Comptroller and Auditor General, there is a misconception that Ireland has suspended aid to Uganda but this is not the case. Apart from that €300,000 we have merely stopped putting money through the governmental systems. Is this the case?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

Yes.

Mr. Rogers has listed where the money has gone in Uganda in the past year, a total of €21.7 million. How are these programmes determined? It is clear that the Department diverted money quickly.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

With reference to one of the issues pointed out by the Comptroller and Auditor General, I admit we should have been aware of that information intelligence sooner. We are on the ground talking to our donors and there are various rumours and views. We should be transmitting them more quickly to headquarters. That is what the dashboard system will do. However, we were picking up issues and we made a decision a few years ago that we should begin to move away somewhat from government systems. We were on that course and it was not a case of having to change the ship. We are now managing our major school-building programme in Karamoja for ourselves, using management agents. The schools are still needed by the system and they were to be built in the national system but we intend to build them ourselves and we will put an Irish flag on them. This was a major change of policy.

This is the point of my questions. I have been involved in this area for a good few years and it has been beaten into me that the best way of spending our money is by means of the governmental systems. There is a reason we are not doing this in Uganda. Has the Synthesis report changed the Department's view with regard to that approach anywhere else? It has always been the policy mantra that this is the most effective, sustainable way of achieving a bang for our buck. There are inherent dangers in using this system but has there been a change?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

If development is to be sustainable in the long term a country must have a national plan, a democratically elected government and a sustainable form of government. The best way that we can exit from provision of aid is when these factors are in place. There has been a major hit in Uganda because of corruption and fraud. As a result we have had to carry out a forensic and detailed analysis on our other countries. The Deputy has visited Mozambique and Ethiopia. We are still working through government systems in those countries to a greater or lesser extent because there are different levels of governance. I do not think our core belief in the need for creating good democratic institutions of state has been fundamentally shifted. However, on a practical level, if we cannot trust the systems we cannot take part. We have taken a clear decision with regard to Uganda and I do not foresee us returning soon.

Has the Department made decisions about any other missions or programmes?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

We have not taken any major decision as a result of fraudulent activities but we constantly analyse our own thought processes. For example, budget support was very important a few years ago when taxation revenues and remittances in Africa were very low. However, government systems are much improved now compared to when I started in this business 20 years ago. Taxation revenues are coming in and governments have capacity. As a result we have to slightly change the way we do business and look at how to do business differently. The new policy, One World, One Future, was published last year and it examines those areas.

I understand this may be the last time Mr. Cooney and Mr. Rogers will be attending the Committee of Public Accounts. I wish them both the best in the future.

I welcome Mr. Cooney and his colleagues. I wish to express my appreciation of the important work of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade in representing this country abroad. I ask why there is no reference to expenditure in Northern Ireland. Is this expenditure covered under a different account? Perhaps I may have overlooked it when perusing the documents.

Mr. David Cooney

The Department spends money in Northern Ireland by means of a small anti-sectarian and reconciliation fund. We have two missions in Northern Ireland. Programme C deals with reconciliation and co-operation on this island. The outturn was €16 million for expenditure, with expenditure on North-South co-operation of €2.697 million and International Fund for Ireland expenditure of €150,000, as well as payroll and administration under that subhead.

The issue of Northern Ireland is always with us, although it was not a particular highlight during 2012.

I am very conscious of that work because I visited the Belfast office and was very struck by how well informed the staff were. It is very important that the Department maintain that presence because the average person on this side of the Border is inclined to take his or her eye off the ball in that regard. It is important to keep a close eye on what is happening in the North.

I have some questions about the Ugandan issue. I am aware that it was the Ugandan authorities that uncovered the fraud. Is it the case that some of the Irish Aid money was going to improve government systems in Uganda? Was our contribution the reason the fraud was uncovered?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

I commend the Ugandan Auditor General as a person of high calibre. He has visited Ireland and we have been working with his office for a number of years. As a result of a visit by a delegation of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, we gave additional funding to the Ugandan Auditor General. This funding helped him to discover the fraud. It was eventually uncovered by our own departmental system. However, the Ugandan Auditor General was ahead of the posse, so to speak, as a result of his forensic audit.

Mr. David Cooney

For the information of the Deputy, we gave €300,000 directly to the Ugandan Auditor General's office last year and will probably give a similar amount this year.

Will the anti-gay law introduced in Uganda have an impact on Irish aid to the country?

Mr. David Cooney

The Tánaiste has made clear his views on that law. The Department condemns it because it is not helpful and will act to the detriment of Uganda in attracting foreign investment. International companies will not find it easy to attract workers to Uganda, in particular, workers who are gay. It is a very bad move from the point of view of Uganda. However, we are not in Uganda to assist the parliament or the President but to assist some of the poorest people on the planet. Last July I visited Karamoja where the society is not dissimilar to that in Ireland at the time of the settlement of Ulster. It is a society of nomadic cattle owners who are making the transition to being a more settled society. Whatever about the actions of the Ugandan Government, we do not believe it would be appropriate to cut off our assistance which is going directly to the people mentioned.

On how to deal with the Ugandan anti-gay law, it is a question of education. It is worth recalling that when Albert Reynolds left the Edinburgh meeting of the European Council in December 1992 to announce that Ireland would receive €8 billion from the European Union, same-sex sexual acts were still criminal offences in Ireland.

Divorce was illegal.

Mr. David Cooney

This country has come a long way in a very short period. It is a matter of education and convincing people to move on. If we can make transitions of that nature, we must hope people elsewhere in the world will be able to find similar enlightenment over a short period. I do not think our reaction should be to cease aid. In fact, much of it is going to help people in Uganda who are suffering from conditions such as HIV/AIDS.

A few years ago I was mayor of South Dublin County Council and at the time we were encouraged by the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade to establish links with two towns in the south of Ethiopia to help them to install sewerage and drainage systems. We regarded it as a very positive programme and it was of mutual benefit to both the towns and the county council. It had the advantage of involving communities in both countries. Are similar programmes planned?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

I was involved in setting up that programme which was a people-to-people programme. We assisted in some ways, but the impetus came from both sides of the link. Louth County Council is doing some work in Malawi and a number of institutions in Ireland have links with Vietnam. We encourage such arrangements and individual contacts. The missionaries have left these countries and we want to ensure the connection and empathy with Ireland remain, which means people connecting with each other rather than simply providing aid programmes. Dublin City Council is interested in doing similar work. I refer to the volunteering initiative for senior people to spend some time in Africa. This is what we want to encourage and facilitate.

I refer to the Department's accounts and the outturn under subhead A of €50.6 million in 2012, compared to an estimate of €60.5 million, for the promotion of Ireland's economic and trade interests in Europe and internationally. Why is there such a discrepancy between the estimate and the amount expended?

Mr. David Cooney

It may well have been because of the underspend on the EU Presidency, but I am not sure.

Was there an underspend on the EU Presidency?

Mr. David Cooney

Yes and it was significant. The Department alone spent €10 million less than had been estimated. I have the figures to hand. This was as a result of the very good work done across Government. I pay particular tribute to staff in my Department and my colleague, Mr. Tim Moore, who previously worked in Dublin but is now with the permanent mission in New York. Because of the very sensitive, frugal way in which we approached the Presidency we saved a significant amount. All events were hosted in Dublin Castle and all efforts at making savings were pursued. We achieved very good value compared to the cost of any previous Presidency, although the Danes might believe they vie with us, but they have different accounting arrangements. The underspend on the EU Presidency in 2012 was €6.432 million, which was significant. The savings were even more significant across Government, although a good proportion were made in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade.

The saving in my Department alone over the two years for which funding was provided - 2012 and 2013 - was €10.6 million out of an Estimate of €18.4 million. That demonstrates the saving. For the whole of Government, the total amount estimated for the Presidency was €67.3 million and the total spend was €44 million, which was a saving of €25.3 million over the whole of the EU Presidency.

I must be forgiven for my ignorance in this area, but when a country holds the Presidency of the EU, does it have to put up all the costs of hosting it or are there contributions from the larger member states?

Mr. David Cooney

Largely, what we have to pay for is the hosting of informal meetings here and the provision of normal Presidency requirements, including stationery. Most of the money was spent hosting meetings, of which there were more than 100 in Ireland. We centralised everything. All the meetings were held in Dublin Castle whereas during previous Presidencies we had meetings around the country. There was real restraint as to costs of catering and we attracted sponsorship for the provision of transport. It was something we could feel a genuine sense of achievement about.

Can Mr. Cooney say something about the work between the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation in the promotion of foreign trade? When the Secretary General was here in April 2012, I was not a member of the committee. He mentioned at that meeting an intention to examine co-operation across a range of agencies, including the IDA and Enterprise Ireland, under an initiative called "Houses of Ireland". Has there been progress on that and what is its status? It seems to have been a good idea for trying to promote Ireland. We could get a bigger bang from our buck if we could combine our efforts from different sectors.

Mr. David Cooney

I agree fully with the Deputy. It is very important that we maximise our resources. Ours is a small country with limited resources and should avoid duplication. We work closely with the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation on a number of fronts. My Department's responsibility in the trade area is one of trade promotion. We are responsible for the Export Trade Council which meets periodically during the year under the chairmanship of the Tánaiste and brings together all Ministers involved in the trade area, representatives of private enterprise and other Departments. My Department also looks after the joint trade commissions we have with a number of countries including Russia and Saudi Arabia, the St. Patrick's Day programme and we task our missions with particular actions. The Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation is responsible for the two largest agencies engaged in trade and investment promotion, Enterprise Ireland and the IDA. We co-operate with those agencies directly as well as with Bord Bia, Tourism Ireland and others.

If there was a country we were particularly anxious to develop links with, how would that operate on the ground? Mr. Cooney might give an example.

Mr. David Cooney

We have a significant number of priority countries. Where there is an embassy, consulate and an agency, a co-ordination committee is established, chaired by the ambassador. It seeks to co-ordinate strategy on the ground. Where possible and in a considerable number of locations, we have Ireland House arrangements. We have that in New York. Everybody is located in the same premises. That has a benefit from the perspective of rent costs as well as in terms of synergies and daily communication. In some cases, it is not possible as the embassy is in an administrative capital such as Brasilia or Canberra. In Italy, our embassy is in Rome whereas the agencies are based in Milan. Where it can be done, we do it. We will always endeavour to do it where possible.

We work closely with agencies in the field although we do not have a line relationship with them. We cannot control them. They do not report to us. Recently, the Government agreed that my Department will seek to liaise with the agencies to ensure that we co-ordinate on choosing how and where to locate. It is something we do already, but we will make additional efforts to see if more can be done. On the ground, we work closely together, including in Africa where Brendan Rogers was recently talking to local representatives in Pretoria. It is something that has changed very much from the time I joined the Department when trade was seen as something out there. We were diplomats and we focused on diplomacy. Now, trade is front and centre of our work. It is not just the most important work we do, although much of our other work is also important, it is - for those who get the opportunity to do it - the most rewarding aspect of our work. There is a real sense of return where one is able to help to bring jobs and investment to the country.

The Department managed to issue more passports in 2011 than 2012, which is positive. I will understand if Mr. Cooney is not in a position to comment on an investigation into passport fraud. What can he say about that?

Mr. David Cooney

To respond to the first of Deputy Dowds's remarks, we are issuing more passports than ever and I pay tribute to my colleague Joe Nugent for his work in the passport service to improve the level of service to the public. We have introduced an appointments service for customers attending the Molesworth Street office. If one visits that office, one will no longer find queues. People are in and out from their appointments in a very short period of time. We have rolled out a service which allows people who need to travel at short notice to get a passport within three days and we are hoping within the next month to improve that service to provide a same-day service to those in emergencies who need to travel, subject to certain criteria, in particular in relation to children. We must be extremely vigilant with regard to children.

The incidents of fraud were discovered by the passport service itself. An incident of fraud came to light in the middle of last year. We called in the Garda and an investigation took place, which resulted in the interview of a number of officials. There are two officials who are no longer in the employ of the Department as a direct result. I understand the Garda will be sending files to the Director of Public Prosecutions. As part of the same exercise, we discovered another incident.

Again, it is related to a small number of staff being interviewed by the Garda. As of now, two members of staff are suspended. We are conducting our own internal investigation into the two members of staff concerned and obviously I cannot say what the outcome of that investigation will be.

Were they involved in the creation of passports-----

Mr. David Cooney

I am sorry. It is not that I wish to be unhelpful, but as this could become the subject of court cases, it would be better if I did not say anything on the record.

I have a general question, although I appreciate Mr. Cooney may not be able to answer it fully. What checks and balances are in place to ensure there is no illegality in the issuance of passports? Clearly, an Irish passport as an EU passport is a valuable commodity; therefore, it is important that there be checks. I thank the officials.

Mr. David Cooney

I will ask my colleague, Mr. Nugent, to reply to the question about checks and arrangements, but I would like to inform the committee that immediately after the first potential fraud was established, I set up an external board, chaired by a former head of IT in the Civil Service, with a representative of the Garda, the Defence Forces and our own internal evaluation and audit unit, to look at our systems to ensure they were fit for purpose in dealing both with internal fraud and external attempts by foreign intelligence services to obtain Irish passports. It has become difficult because the booklet has become so sophisticated. It won an award recently. I do not know if members have seen our new attractive booklet. It is a handsome document and statement of identity and it won an award recently as the best European document. Those who wish to obtain passports are looking for fraudulently obtained genuine passports. The group I established has reported back with a number of proposals for actions we should take. These are actions we wish to take. We are rolling out an ambitious programme which involves upgrading our systems. When they were introduced ten years ago, they were state-of-the-art, but things have moved on. We are under way and Mr. Nugent will tell the committee a little more about what we are doing on that front.

Mr. Joe Nugent

The challenges we face in Ireland are not very different from those faced by passport agencies around the world. Passports have become incredibly valuable documents not just for the purposes of travel but, equally, for getting a bank account and other activities. For that reason, they clearly attract the attention of those who would like to use them for unlawful purposes. There are two broad aspects. The Secretary General has discussed the changes we have made to the security features of the book to make it more resistant to attack for forgery purposes. The second part is that people internationally are moving towards trying to obtain what are called fraudulently obtained genuine passports, in essence, assuming the identity of others. The systems we need to put in place, therefore, clearly have to keep track of and a focus on the more particular attacks we have seen of late. That means changes to the application processes we have in place, the technology systems and, from an internal point of view, looking at the way we monitor the processing of applications and assessing whether we are seeing potential threats from the point of view of how documents are handled and who is handling them. We have made a series of moves in making short-term, immediate changes; equally, we are looking at long-term changes to processes in the coming years.

In addition to the review referred to by the Secretary General, we also undertook a look-back process where we took applications received in 2013 and undertook a thorough examination of their processing to establish whether there were other matters that would be of concern to us, either specifically in respect of unusual applications or more generally around our broad approaches. The evaluation and audit unit is in the process of finalising a report on that process, but I am satisfied that the findings will show our processes are good. The reputation of the passport is well respected internationally. Irish people should realise that our document gets us into as many countries without a visa as most other countries. People from five or six countries may be able to access more countries than us. Our challenge is to make sure it stays that way and we make it easy for people to travel to countries without any administrative burden.

I welcome Mr. Cooney and his officials. I echo the comments of colleagues about the quality of the service offered by the Department and its good work. I was on holidays in Australia during the Christmas break visiting my brother and was tracked down by Noel White who wanted to avail of any opportunity to meet a Member of Parliament to tell him or her what he was doing. That was proactive.

I would like to focus on a few figures from the accounts. The outturn for salaries, wages and allowances in 2012 was €77.5 million. How many staff does that figure relate to? What is the breakdown between salaries, wages and allowances?

Mr. David Cooney

The total staff complement of the Department is 1,367.5. I presume this refers to the fact that somebody is working part time. Of that number, 764 are at home, 585 are abroad and 17 are in Northern Ireland. If these figures do not add up, it is because there are percentages in them. Not all of the staff are funded from Vote 28. Those who work in the development missions are funded from Vote 27.

Are all of the 585 staff who are abroad posted from Ireland?

Mr. David Cooney

No. Of the 585.9 posted abroad, 291 are locally employed staff. The majority, therefore, are locally employed staff. Approximately 295 are Dublin-based. I must look at the figures again and will get back to the Deputy.

They are Dublin-based but posted abroad.

Mr. David Cooney

Yes. I will get back to the Deputy on the figures.

We have a general figure. Will Mr. Cooney break down the allocation for salaries, wages and allowances?

Mr. David Cooney

The outturn for foreign services allowance is €7.9 million. There was an underspend of approximately €550,000.

Salaries and allowances were €79 million. Non-pay salaries and allowances were €10.5 million, and this includes representation allowance, small additional dental and medical claims and school fees for the children of officers serving abroad.

While researching this yesterday I came across a parliamentary question which Deputy Creed put to every Department in October 2012. The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade's answer went through the allowances payable by the Department, starting with allowances that are common to more than one Department and to which every civil servant would be entitled. Then it listed some that are specific to the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and then allowances paid to officers serving at missions abroad. That includes the cost of living, local post and representation allowances. Are those figures all included in the €77 million?

Mr. David Cooney

They come under different subheads. That subhead, salaries and allowances (non-pay), includes representation allowance, rent allowance and school fees but the foreign service allowance is included in the salary element. There are two elements: salaries and allowances (pay), which includes the foreign service allowance, and salaries and allowances (non-pay), which includes representation, medical and school fees allowances, etc.

So they are all in the €77 million.

Mr. David Cooney

They are all in A1 but under different aspects of it.

That is what I was looking for. I wanted to be sure of that. I thank Mr. Cooney. The figures from the answer to the parliamentary question add the cost of living allowance to the local post allowance, child foreign allowance, other foreign service allowance, rent, furniture, school fee, assistant, representation, health insurance and medical expenses, detention, disturbance and temporary accommodation costs allowances. I am not saying any of these are invalid. In 2012 this total came to €21.5 million, which represents 28% of the Department's total pay costs. That seems extremely high.

Mr. David Cooney

They are significant, but many of those allowances are compensation for money expended. Others are based on a formula agreed with the Department of Finance. The local post allowance allows a certain amount of additional expenditure which one requires when living abroad. When living abroad there is a need to expend more on various aspects of one's life to keep up with representational aspects and additional aspects of life, for instance the need to travel on a not very regular basis to see one's family. There is a cost of living-----

I do not intend this to be confrontational. I just want to tease out some of the details. May I go through each of the headings and get an understanding of what they are and the basis behind them? I apologise if Mr. Cooney does not have the parliamentary question before him. It says the estimated cost of living allowance was €2.4 million in 2012 and was paid to 335 people who served abroad. We have fewer than 300 serving abroad now, so it looks like everybody who was serving abroad at the time got it. Does everybody get it?

Mr. David Cooney

No, an officer gets the local post allowance when he or she goes abroad, and it is to compensate for the additional costs of living abroad. It is not a significant figure. It is affected by the changes in salaries here. When salaries decrease here, the allowances decrease too. The cost of living element is applied to a combination of the allowance and salary to try to ensure the officer enjoys the same standard of living abroad as at home. In countries where the cost of living is higher than in Ireland, this allowance is given to bring the income up to an equivalent level. That allowance is calculated on the basis of research done by an independent international company in the same way as most foreign services in Europe and North America do. That cost of living allowance exists simply to compensate for a higher cost of living in some countries abroad. It is not meant to bring any additional remunerative benefit to the officer concerned.

Do all the staff serving abroad get a cost of living allowance?

Mr. David Cooney

Only those living in countries where the cost of living is higher than in Ireland.

So a significant portion of people serving abroad do not receive a cost of living allowance.

Mr. David Cooney

If one serves in a country with a cost of living lower than Ireland's, one does not get a cost of living allowance.

Could Mr. Cooney give us a breakdown of the numbers serving abroad who are and are not receiving this allowance?

Mr. David Cooney

Yes, of course we can do that.

The reason I asked about the local post allowance and linked it to the cost of living is because the reply to the parliamentary question in 2012 said approximately 325 received it at any one time. The local post allowance, which Mr. Cooney has told me is separate and has a separate function and meaning, was received by the same number of people, 325. It was not an insignificant amount, at €17,000 per person.

Mr. David Cooney

I am sorry, I do not have the parliamentary question before me and I do not have the statistics. I will have to get back to the Deputy on that. All those allowances are appropriately applied. They go down as well as up, and many have gone down this year, much to the chagrin of my colleagues.

I suggest Mr. Cooney gives us a note on each of those headings with a breakdown of the information Deputy Nolan requires.

I agree. I would like to ask a few more questions on them. If Mr Cooney cannot answer, he may get back to me. That is no problem.

Mr. David Cooney

Yes, absolutely.

Can we start from the basis that Mr. Cooney will provide us, in the context of that parliamentary question, all the information that has been asked for in the breakdown of the figures?

Mr. David Cooney

Absolutely.

Mr. Cooney said it goes up and down. He might explain that to us.

I appreciate Mr. Cooney is from the Department of Health and may not be completely au fait with every aspect of every pay structure. If someone else in the room has the information I would be happy for them to come forward. Does the cost of living allowance, as calculated for other countries, include in its calculation higher rents in those countries?

Mr. Fergal Mythen

We undertake an annual review of these allowances on the basis of an agreement we have with an independent consultancy firm called Employment Conditions Abroad. It is a London-based company used by many international organisations, including us. It assesses each posting on the basis of a basket of criteria for each location and we can supply the exact breakdown. A number of issues come into play, including the cost of living, security and hardship.

Could Mr. Mythen find out if that includes accommodation costs? That is often a significant factor in cost of living differentials. On the basis that there is a rent allowance separate from the cost of living allowance, I am trying to ascertain that there is no double counting.

Mr. Fergal Mythen

I understand that there is no double counting because, as Deputy Nolan said, we have a separate rent allowance ceiling and that is dealt with separately. We will confirm that.

How is the rent allowance calculated?

Mr. David Cooney

We have ceilings for officers going abroad in terms of how much they can spend on a residence. The residence is inspected. It is the responsibility of the officer to find accommodation.

It is then inspected by the head of mission, who must certify that it is appropriate for the uses intended and within the rent ceiling. That is how it is applied. The rental is then paid by the Department.

Is that allowance paid regardless of whether one maintains a residence in Ireland?

Mr. David Cooney

That is not relevant and I do not know how many properties people own in Ireland. It is none of my business, to be frank.

This is not taxable as rent allowance. It is paid as an amount based on rent to compensate people because they incur additional expenditure by living abroad. It is not simply to cover rent but additional expenditure. I do not own a property, for example. If I was sent to Berlin for three years, I would not keep my home but rather let the lease run out and move to Berlin. If I got a rent payment, I would not be compensated but rather rewarded. The basis of the taxation code - where allowances can be given without being taxed - is that these payments are compensatory. Therefore, it is very much within Mr. Cooney's remit to be worried about whether people are making a profit if the payments are meant to be compensatory.

Mr. David Cooney

I am not going to go there. It is not my responsibility to delve into the private circumstances of my employees.

I am sorry the process has gone this way because I genuinely wanted to tease out the issue. In the business case put forward to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to justify the expenses allowances, it was noted that a deal was done with the Department of Finance in 2005 that the allowances would not be taxable on the basis that they were purely compensatory for additional costs incurred by people on the back of their going abroad. If I surrender a lease at home or have a mortgage repaid so I do not incur additional rental costs, there is no extra cost and the payment is not compensatory.

Mr. David Cooney

I have a home which I do not rent if I go abroad. Even if somebody decides to rent a property or owns half a dozen properties, I cannot get into individual circumstances. I cannot decide it is fine if a property is not rented but it is not fine if somebody decides to rent half a dozen properties they own. It would be impossible to start interrogating people about whether they rent a property or sell when they go abroad. The Deputy is basically asking that if somebody goes abroad and decides to rent their property, that person should not get an allowance.

Mr Seamus McCarthy

I have an observation, although I had not thought about this before today. Presumably if somebody has a property here and is renting it, he or she is liable for tax on the rental income. The tax would be collected on that side rather than taxing the allowance.

It is different. I may be on a salary and when I move abroad, I get paid a cost of living allowance because it is more expensive to live in that place. The local post allowance compensates me. If I do not own a property and I cancel my lease, having had my salary adjusted for cost of living expenses and a local post allowance, would rent be paid on top of that, although there is no extra cost to me? To be pernickety about this, according to Mr. Cooney's business case, section 25 of the Finance Act 2005 includes a provision for the tax treatment of foreign services allowances. The measure provides that the Minister for Finance, in agreement with the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade or another relevant Minister, may certify as exempt from taxation certain allowances which provide compensation to officers of the State for the extra costs arising in being obliged to live outside the State and performing the duties of employment. That is my point. If Mr. Cooney wishes to revert with a note detailing legal advice or correspondence with the Department of Finance, that is fair enough.

Mr. David Cooney

I simply do not understand how this could operate, with each officer's individual circumstances being interrogated. I do not know how many properties my colleagues own or how much rental income they have. I do not know their living circumstances. If we get to a point where everybody must be interrogated about their living circumstances at home before the Department can pay their accommodation abroad, I do not know how we would operate.

If I add the allowances I see before me for people serving abroad in 2012, they come to €21.52 million. Dividing that between the 325 people serving abroad at the time to which the allowances were paid, it works out at €66,000 extra per person, which is a considerable amount. It also represents 28% of the expenses element of the Department's budget for staff in 2012. All I am trying to get at is whether we are getting value for money, which is the remit of this committee. We must ask these questions and seek information to be satisfied, as the public watchdog, that we are getting value for money. I appreciate the witness may not have had the time to prepare some of the answers but I am entitled to put my point and get a response. It may well be the case that it would bureaucratically difficult or burdensome to do this kind of stuff, but I am entitled to ask the question without being scoffed at.

Mr. David Cooney

I regret that the Deputy feels he is being scoffed at but I do not feel I am scoffing at him. The Deputy is fully entitled to seek value for money and this is what the committee is supposed to do. I am happy to answer any questions. I am simply making the point to the Deputy that his expectation in the pursuit of officers regarding private circumstances before they can qualify for an allowance is untenable. I do not see how one can insist that an officer handles private effects in a certain way before he or she can be considered for an allowance. I do not know the private circumstances and residential status of officers. I am certainly prepared to return with the business cases we made regarding allowances, their value and why we paid them.

I have the business cases.

Mr. David Cooney

I very much doubt the arrangements we have are very different from any other foreign service. Even with the arrangements in place, it is not always easy to encourage people to go abroad. There are considerable inconveniences and costs in going abroad, and it is by no means the case that the financial package for going abroad is so attractive that we are inundated with offers from people wishing to do so. I hope I have never shown any disrespect to this committee and that I have not shown disrespect to the Deputy. Nevertheless, what he suggests would involve considerable intrusion into the private affairs of officials working in the Department.

To be helpful to Deputy Nolan, he has sought a reply and Mr. Cooney can provide that after considering the question. Do the 325 officials automatically get all the allowances outlined by Deputy Nolan or do they have to make a case under each heading to get the allowance? Do they make the application or does the Department apply the allowances across the board without question?

Mr. David Cooney

When an officer goes abroad, the local post allowance and cost of living allowance are received automatically if applicable to a particular post.

What does that mean?

Mr. David Cooney

There is a local post allowance applied to every post in every embassy.

The cost of living allowance, which is the inflator that applies to countries where the cost of living is higher than in Ireland, applies only in those countries. There is no cost of living allowance in certain other countries. With regard to rent allowance, one has to apply for that and submit invoices every month to get a refund. One has to apply for school fees. An amount for representational allowance is allocated to each embassy for the year and is then allocated to the officers in the embassy. That is recouped after it has been spent.

There is a certain amount of engagement between the Department and the official concerned, and a certain amount of analysis of the allowances to which Deputy Nolan referred. Are they just given without any investigation?

Mr. David Cooney

No, absolutely not. The Department interrogates them very thoroughly. We examine these things closely.

Is that the detail you want, Deputy Nolan?

That is it, Chairman. An ambassador obviously does not get rent allowance because as head of the mission his accommodation is paid for. He would receive a not insignificant salary by Irish standards. What is the average salary for an ambassador?

Mr. David Cooney

Most of our ambassadors are at councillor level so their salary is approximately €100,000. There are some at assistant secretary level who would earn approximately €130,000. That is the ball park figure. I do not have the exact figures in my head.

We pay them significant salaries. What is the tax treatment of the salaries when they are abroad?

Mr. David Cooney

For us?

Mr. David Cooney

We are taxed exactly as the Deputy would be taxed.

They are taxed as if they are domiciled in Dublin.

Mr. David Cooney

Yes, absolutely.

They go abroad and receive a cost of living allowance. Is that based on a basket of goods that includes rent? If it does include rent they are being doubly compensated. If not, it is quite fair. The local post allowance averaged approximately €17,000 per annum per person in 2012, and many other costs for which compensation is fair. If education costs are included in the cost of living increase, why do we pay education costs individually? If medical costs are included in the cost of living bundle, why do we compensate for those separately and so on?

I raised a legal point about the rent allowance, based on the Department’s business case for the deal done with the Department of Finance on extra costs, and not simply additional costs. It has to be extra. That was the legal requirement for calculating that. I would like to see the analysis behind that. What exactly is the representation allowance for?

Mr. David Cooney

The representation allowance is for hosting receptions, dinners and casual entertainment with targeted persons who help Ireland. That is how we promote, make contacts and build relationships with businessmen. It is not spent on private entertainment, such as going out for pizza with one’s wife. The head of mission goes through these things and allocates them to the members of staff.

I can understand that being an extremely important part of the work of an embassy. Why is it allocated to persons and not on an embassy basis?

Mr. David Cooney

It is done on an embassy basis and that is how it is completed. At the beginning of the year there is a responsibility not to overspend. A provisional allocation is made between members of staff. They are told that for their work they each have access to specific amounts. That gives them an idea of how much they can spend over the course of the year. They cannot splurge it in one go. It is not a competition between members of the embassy to see who can use up the most. It is allocated on that basis. As the year goes on, it can be adjusted between different offices, as needs require. It is just good business practice.

I am confused by the distension, disturbance and temporary accommodation allowances. Could Mr. Cooney explain them?

Mr. David Cooney

Those allowances all relate to expenditure when an officer arrives in a post before he or she has found permanent accommodation, and for costs when they return to Ireland. There are costs involved in moving home and making one’s home fit for habitation, if one has a home. The disturbance allowance has been eliminated as a result of the review of allowances.

Mr. David Cooney

I would like to emphasise, if I may, that the sense that there is a degree of impropriety or excess around these allowances is unfounded. We are extremely scrupulous about these allowances and their allocation. We went through them to ensure we genuinely compensate an officer for the additional costs of being abroad. They are not intended as additional income. They are to allow officers do their job and enjoy an income that is not lower than it would be had they stayed at home. I am comfortable standing over this. The Deputy has raised a couple of legitimate points about the contents of the basket on which the cost of living index is based. We will examine that and reply later to the Deputy. Generally, these are not there to give people a good life. There are considerable costs involved in moving and living abroad and trying to maintain a reasonable life a long way from home.

Mr. Fergal Mythen

I run our corporate services division. I have a small team of eight to ten people who work 24-7 on allowances. Nothing is given away as a right. Everything is checked, assessed and reviewed. We have just carried out an annual review of allowances, which resulted in several cutbacks across the world which has not been well received but we base it on hard facts, data and analysis which we receive from the independent consultancy firm. It is very rigorous and thorough, and nothing is given away as of right.

It is not simply a matter of looking at the numbers serving in missions and dividing the money accordingly. There are children involved. For example, I had four children in Brussels. The numbers assessed in this calculation are greater than the number of officers working in the mission. I absolutely guarantee we are as thorough as can be and will continue to be so, to ensure value for money and to ensure people are compensated as per our guidelines. We have reduced our administration fees and costs by millions over the past four years. We have reduced the rent allowance in every location around the globe. That has affected people. Some individuals have not been able to get accommodation in certain cities because we have set the bar quite low. We do not do this lightly. We review it and make sure we are always driving down costs without imposing burdens on our staff who move their families abroad.

Could Mr. Mythen include the impact of children in his note? That would be very interesting.

I am interested in the other services that may be provided to heads of mission or ambassadors to help them with their cost of living. For example, is the ambassador’s food covered by the embassy? Do full-time chefs work in the embassies? Are drivers provided to ambassadors? Are there other supports and costs associated with ambassadors that would ease their cost of living costs?

Mr. David Cooney

The ambassadors pay for all the food they eat. There are full-time chefs in several embassies.

They are employed in order that the ambassadors can do their jobs in terms of networking and entertaining from home. When I was the ambassador in London, I had a full-time chef because we did so much entertaining that we were almost running a restaurant. These supports are provided to allow people to do their jobs. They are not offered to allow certain people to have a good time.

Running an embassy is a big responsibility for an ambassador and his or her spouse. They often inhabit an elaborate and old premises that requires considerable care and maintenance. The ambassador and his or spouse are often like janitors. The spouses get no compensation for the work they do of their own volition and on behalf of the State. In regard to the suggestion that ambassadors live a pampered lifestyle, frankly I could take it or leave it. There are pros but also a lot of cons. Having responsibility for looking after a premises abroad is one of the big cons.

I sense that the Deputy is trying to probe whether these people are living a good life at the State's expense. That is not the way my family or I found the experience. There is a huge amount of dislocation, with children being dragged around the world and their education disrupted. We pay school fees for children because they cannot access state schools abroad. That does not work for everybody, however. It is a moot point whether these children would have been better off staying at home and going through the normal school process. It is no picnic. I would prefer to be at home with a beer on a Saturday watching "Match of the Day" than going to some reception or dinner. It can be hard work and disruptive for families. A considerable amount is expected from families and spouses, who get no remuneration. I recognise that the Deputy is doing his job in exploring this area but I am putting the case for the opposition. It is not an easy life.

I appreciate that. I am not for a second denigrating Mr. Cooney's service. His record is highly respected, as are the records of those with whom I have interacted. The purpose of this session is to determine whether we are getting value for money for the State's money. Mr. Cooney may have got himself an unwanted headline with his use of the word "janitors".

Mr. David Cooney

I am quite happy to put it in the headlines because people need to know what it is like to look after an embassy abroad. One has only to put the words "diplomat" and "pampered" together and one has a headline but that is not what it is like. I am sure I will be toasted by the spouses in the Department who have been working for nothing over the years.

Mr. Cooney's restaurant in London might be a better headline.

Mr. David Cooney

The Chairman has dined there.

It is a very good restaurant.

I have not yet been invited. I ask Mr. Cooney to provide a note on the number of embassies that employ full-time chefs.

I have the information somewhere in my bag of tricks. The figure is quite significant.

Are there cleaning staff in these embassies?

Mr. David Cooney

The arrangements differ between embassies. Some embassies employ live-in staff who do the cleaning. When I was in London and New York, there were no live-in staff but cleaners came in. It depends on which arrangement is the most convenient. It does not make a difference in terms of cost. Out of the 73 missions abroad, 21 have full-time cooks. The cost of these 21 cooks is €430,000, which works out at not much more than €20,000 per head. That is not bad value. If one does not have a full-time cook, one has to hire in cooks, which is much more expensive in many cases because the individual concerned will usually be a professional chef. In my experience, there is better value in having a full-time cook. One can certainly get more output from a full-time cook than from spending the same amount of money hiring people on an occasional basis.

I ask Mr. Cooney to provide a written note on the breakdown of grades and how they are affected by allowance. I am not asking for names or even country level information.

Mr. David Cooney

We will give Deputy Nolan an average figure. Mr. Rogers wishes to speak about the cushy life in Africa.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

It is different from being an ambassador in Europe. I supervise our ambassadors in Africa and I assure the committee it is a difficult place to work in terms of children's education and the disease burden. I have lived there for 11 years. I contracted malaria in 1996 and I ended up within ten hours of losing my life because I was not looking after myself. They work all the hours God sends them. We try to look after them by ensuring they have some of the comforts of life. They are doing a great job.

I have no doubt about that. However, would the witnesses agree that the staff who work in Africa for reasonable salaries and local post allowances are earning more than janitors are paid in those countries?

Mr. David Cooney

I do not want this to descend into some kind of farce. I did not suggest we are full-time janitors. We are part-time janitors and that is usually outside of normal working hours.

I am conscious that the witnesses have been answering questions for two hours. Deputy Eoghan Murphy will be the last speaker. Do the witnesses want a break or are they happy to continue?

Mr. David Cooney

I am happy to continue.

Deputy Dowds asked about the underspend on the EU Presidency. I understand there was also an underspend on the OSCE chairmanship. The underspend in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade does not take into account security costs. Does the total spend take into account security costs?

Mr. David Cooney

Yes.

What was the total figure for the underspend?

Mr. David Cooney

The entire budget for the Presidency across all Departments was €67.3 million. The outturn was €42 million and the figure for savings was €25.3 million.

Does the money stay in Mr. Cooney's Department or is it put back into the general pool to be redistributed to a different area?

Mr. David Cooney

As it was not spent, it went back to the Exchequer.

Does that affect the Department's budget for the following year?

Mr. David Cooney

No, this was additional money for the EU Presidency. It was outside the normal routine of our expenditure.

Is the Department of Justice and Equality in a position to bill the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade for the security costs?

Mr. David Cooney

No, the figure of €67.3 million was the total allocation across all Departments.

The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade still has money in its budget. Can the Department of Justice and Equality seek to cover security costs through the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade budget?

Mr. David Cooney

No, moneys can only be spent for the purpose for which they are allocated, which is within the particular Department. As I said, the money that was not spent went back to the Exchequer.

I understand there also was an underspend in respect of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe chairmanship.

Mr. David Cooney

Yes, for similar reasons. The OSCE chairmanship was in many ways a dry run for the European Presidency. Many of the efficiencies we achieved in respect of the latter were initiated during the OSCE chairmanship. Another factor in the significant underspend was that we originally estimated the costs based not so much on our own previous Presidency in 2004 but on what other members states had been spending in recent years. Our 2004 Presidency cost €110 million, compared with €42 million this time, which is a significant difference. In fact, we came in significantly lower than most other member states in recent times.

That is great.

The recent announcement regarding new embassy openings did not include Tehran. Will Mr. Cooney comment on that?

Mr. David Cooney

Tehran was not on the list of eight embassies approved by Government, but we gave it very serious consideration. I can probably speak for the Tánaiste when I say it is an issue he would like to revisit. We gave it careful consideration in the context of the improved situation in that country. The main reason behind our decision to close the embassy in Tehran in 2011 was the impact of sanctions, which meant we were not really able to do the type of business we wanted to do. Things are now improving in Iran and the reopening of the embassy in Tehran certainly will be to the forefront of our consideration as the situation develops. The view on this occasion, however, was that the situation had not moved on sufficiently to justify its reopening.

I am interested in the process by which these decisions are arrived at. Mr. Cooney indicated that eight openings were approved by Government. Were Mr. Cooney and his colleagues asked to select a draft list of, say, 20 countries for submission to Government? Is that how it was done?

Mr. David Cooney

We did our own internal analysis of the locations we would like to open, before bringing that analysis to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. There is not only an issue of financing here but also the requirement for additional personnel to staff these new missions. Agreement was reached with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform on how we should proceed. In an ideal world, we would have liked to reopen the embassy in Tehran, but in a context where we were obliged to focus on priorities, it did not make our final list in this instance. As I said, however, it is very much under consideration.

Without wishing to criticise the Department, my view is that the closure of the embassy in Tehran was a mistake, a view I expressed at the time. Was cost one of the criteria in drawing up the list? More specifically, was cost a significant issue in respect of the decision on Tehran?

Mr. David Cooney

As I said earlier, we were in a situation in 2011 where we had to close a number of embassies. Our Department could not be exempt from the general cost cutting that was going on and we had to be seen to do something to contribute to that effort. The reason we decided on Tehran at the time was that the embassy had been there for some time but the returns in terms of trade were disappointing. We were in a difficult situation in that we were unable to exploit that representation effectively because of the effect of sanctions. If and as the situation in Iran improves - it is going in the right direction - we would be very keen, if we have the resources, to reopen the embassy.

Was the former embassy building owned by the Department or leased?

Mr. David Cooney

We were renting a premises.

Can Mr. Cooney indicate the approximate cost of reopening the embassy in terms of lease, staffing, security and so on?

Mr. David Cooney

I doubt we would be able to go back into the same building. I expect we will have to find new premises to rent and there will probably be some fit-out costs.

I would like an idea of what the total cost of running an embassy in Tehran might be.

Mr. David Cooney

I understand the cost of the former embassy was approximately €500,000.

To reopen it, therefore, the Department would need to find an additional €500,000 per year?

Mr. David Cooney

Yes. Resuming operations in Tehran probably would require two diplomats and some local staff.

Would one of the diplomats be a counsellor?

Mr. David Cooney

I expect there would be a counsellor and a third secretary.

The delegates probably will not be surprised by my next question because it is an issue on which I have tabled several parliamentary questions recently. It relates to the rosters for overseas elections monitoring missions.

Mr. David Cooney

I am aware of the Deputy's parliamentary questions.

I understand a new roster was put in place in 2013. Why was the old roster reviewed? Is it something that is done on a regular basis or is it a new initiative?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

It makes sense to refresh the roster every five years or so. We did so in 2013, and the new roster of appropriately skilled individuals will apply for the next five years. Out of 263 applications, which was less than we anticipated, we put together a roster of 200. We went through a fairly analytical written application process, based on four different criteria, namely, language, experience, knowledge of human rights and knowledge of governance. Out of that process we came up with 200 names and we also had a reserve list. We then had a feedback process.

To clarify, does the figure of 200 include the people on the reserve list or are they additional?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

Those people are additional.

How many are on the reserve list?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

I understand there are ten people on the reserve list.

Of the 263 people who applied, therefore, 210 were successful if we include the reserve list?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

Yes. As I said, we then had a feedback process.

I am very interested to understand how the process works. When the Department made the public call for applicants, was it done through an advertisement?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

It was done through application to the website.

Were the applicants asked to submit a CV?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

They were required to submit an application form and CV outlining their experience, language skills, knowledge of human rights and knowledge of governance.

Were two separate documents required - application form and CV?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

Applicants had to fill out an application form. They wrote to us asking to be part of the roster and outlining their case.

Did some applicants supply a CV while others did not?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

I did not take part in the appraisal process but, as I understand it, everybody came in with the application form. We invited applications.

Did the application forms allow for additional material to be provided?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

I understand the forms could be completed as extensively as the applicants wished.

As part of the call for applications, was it the intention to have an interview stage?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

The initial idea was to have an interview process, depending on the numbers who applied. We did not receive as many applications as we expected, so we took the view that we could use the written applications to determine the list.

Is it fair to say that people who applied were under the impression there would be an interview stage at which they might have an opportunity to flesh out their application?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

Some of them might have thought there would be interviews, but no final decision had been taken at that stage.

Was it only expressed as a possibility?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

As far as I am aware, yes.

Will Mr. Rogers reiterate the four criteria on which the applications were assessed?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

The criteria were language, experience, knowledge of human rights and knowledge of governance, each of which was given equal weighting.

I asked in a recent parliamentary question why, for example, experience and language were given equal weighting.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

Some monitoring missions necessitate language skills.

My own experience of participating in missions is that monitors are provided with interpreters. As far as I am aware, there is no testing of participants' language skills.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

I am not sure whether or not we tested language skills.

My understanding is that language skills were not tested orally.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

That is correct.

I find it odd that language and experience would be given the same weighting. One can easily check whether an applicant really has been on X number of monitoring missions. In respect of language skills, I assume applicants provided some documentation, but they are not tested. If it is subsequently found, when they are assigned to a particular monitoring mission, that they do not have the desired language skills, there is potential embarrassment there for the Department.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

It would also be very much an embarrassment to the applicants themselves. We would meet people before we send them out and they must provide the relevant documentation. It would become clear very quickly whether they do, in fact, have the language skills they claim to have.

The issue I think with the individual was that they felt that language should not have the same weight.

I agree with that individual. I do not know why the weighting was the same.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

We did a review of this as well and sought feedback, as the Deputy is aware. We then had a review process in which we brought in someone externally, who had not been available to carry out the initial appraisals. In fact, even the appraisals themselves were carried out by independent people and we had two who came back.

I will not name any individuals but I find it odd that someone could get selected for an election monitoring roster five years ago with no experience and then, after five years of good experience in election monitoring, would not be selected for the 2013 panel.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

We went through an independent process to ask an independent assessor whether we should have included this person. Two people went into the final review process - we went through the feedback, the initial review and then the final review process, after which one person got a couple of additional marks. However, the assessment was the assessment was correct.

Does Mr. Rogers not find that to be odd?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

I was not involved in it. It was an independent assessment and then there was an independent review and then there was feedback and it was not changed on the balance.

The roster that was introduced in 2013 will be reviewed again in five years' time.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

Yes. It depends, in that if people fall off the roster, it may be refreshed before that. It is for five years essentially, for the European Union and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, OSCE, as the Deputy is aware. I acknowledge there has been a lot of feedback on this one.

Yes and I was not trying to make a special case for anyone. I was interested in the process and I do not agree with that equal weighting. If equal weighting is to be placed on languages, we should be testing it orally. This is not necessarily from personal experience but people tend to exaggerate how good they are in a language at an interview or in an application.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

Yes.

In any event, I thank Mr. Rogers.

The last area I wish to examine briefly concerns Ireland's preparedness for certain eventualities in respect either of Scottish independence or a referendum in the United Kingdom. Does the Department have a dedicated unit looking at these eventualities or how is it monitoring that situation?

Mr. David Cooney

As for the situation in Scotland, we have a consulate there that reports regularly to the Department and the line responsibility at home is with the Anglo-Irish division. We are monitoring this issue closely. As for the European Union side, the Department does not have lead responsibility for European Union matters, as that now is handled in the Department of the Taoiseach but obviously, we take a keen interest in what is happening in respect of British membership of the European Union. Again, the Anglo-Irish division is keeping a close eye to that, as is the Europe division, which looks after more general European matters in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. As to whether we have contingencies, the issue of British membership in particular is discussed and considered across the whole Government apparatus, because were that to evolve, we believe it would have serious negative implications for Ireland. Consequently, that issue is discussed at the economic management committee and elsewhere across the board.

Sorry, which committee?

Mr. David Cooney

The economic management committee.

That is the sub-committee of the Cabinet.

Mr. David Cooney

Yes, as well as, of course, the European Union affairs committee and such like.

It is good to know that it is being discussed at the highest level. However, as yet there is no contingency plan or document for Ireland in the eventuality of A or B. Is this because it is too far off from-----

Mr. David Cooney

Documents have been produced but at this stage, we are not working on the basis that it will happen. I take the Deputy's point on whether it is happening or could it happen but frankly, that is a matter on which I do not have the lead and which probably goes outside the remit of this committee. I would not want to be-----

That is fair enough. On Scottish independence, has the Department given advice or provided a view on Scotland's ability, were it to achieve independence, to accede to the European Union?

Mr. David Cooney

We have tried to stay out of this argument. We do not have a dog in this fight. The Deputy has heard the opinions elsewhere and I do not know. Slovakia managed to stay in the European Union without too much trouble but were this divorce to take place, it does not look as though it will be a velvet one. A tartan one perhaps.

I understand there are sensitivities in respect of this but I understand what Mr. Cooney is saying.

Mr. David Cooney

Scottish independence is an issue for the people of Scotland and how it happens, if it happens, is an issue for the people of the United Kingdom as a whole. It is something in which we have tried not to get involved.

However, it will be an issue for us, should there be independence.

Mr. David Cooney

It will be an issue. Clearly, there are implications and there will be significant implications for Northern Ireland that we are considering. However, it is not an issue on which we have chosen to voice opinions publicly.

It also is an issue, in terms of European Union membership, for us to consider because were Scotland to achieve independence, an application might come in. Consequently, we would need to know.

Mr. David Cooney

Were Scotland to become independent, I cannot imagine that the Irish Government would wish to veto it. That would not make sense, as we would want to see Scotland inside the European Union, whatever way it happens.

As would many other European countries.

Mr. David Cooney

I can safely say that, if it does occur.

I have one further area to raise regarding the pre-payment of the United Nations subscriptions in 2012. Perhaps the Chairman was going to raise it.

No, the Deputy should proceed.

Mr. David Cooney

I am happy to answer that. When I heard about this after the event, I thought it was a good bit of business because it is very difficult to predict the size of our contribution to the United Nations peacekeeping budget and back in 2010, we had a shortfall of €15 million and had been obliged to get permission from the Oireachtas to move money around between subheads. However, I accept that it appears as though we infringed public service requirements. I accept the rebuke and we will not do it again. However, as I stated, it seemed like a good idea at the time. We only paid it three weeks earlier than we would have done anyway and consequently, I do not think it would have made any difference. I accept the rules are there for a reason and that if we infringe them, I accept-----

The Secretary General stated he heard about it after the event. Consequently, he did not approve of the payment being made. It was someone junior to him.

Mr. David Cooney

Actually, officers gave up leave to come in while on holiday to do this before the end of the year. It was done with the approval of the accounts and with the co-operation of the then head of corporate services. As I stated, personally I thought this was a good bit of business. Had they told me about it, I would have said it was a great idea and to go ahead and do it. I did not realise that in so doing, we were crossing the line regarding procedures and as I stated, I accept the rebuke. It might have been a good bit of business but obviously, it was a wrong bit of business and so, we will not do it again.

Perhaps the financial officer will be able to provide advice next year.

Mr. David Cooney

It will not happen again.

This committee only deals with mortal sins anyway.

It looks like the Department was rushing to spend all its budget before the end of the year in order to get the same amount the next year.

Mr. David Cooney

It looked like that but as I stated, it was taken in the context of a situation in 2010 when we were underfunded by €15 million in respect of the United Nations budget. It caused us quite a bit of grief to be obliged to come back to the Dáil and to get the Dáil to agree to move money around between subheads. While we had this unspent money, a United Nations bill came in that fell to be paid within 30 days. It just seemed like a good idea. It was not but I do not think any great harm was done. However, I accept there are rules in place.

Were small to medium-sized enterprises nationwide to be paid by the Government in the same way, they would be very happy. How is that sum of $10.65 million calculated?

Mr. David Cooney

For the United Nations?

Mr. David Cooney

The total budget of the United Nations is set each year towards the end of the year and then is apportioned among the member states on the basis of a key that is calculated on the basis of one's GDP or GNP - I do not know which. Our contribution key has fallen quite significantly for the current period because of the-----

There is enormous growth potential there, which is why I ask about this again. I ask Mr. Cooney to perhaps talk to Ms Julie Sinnamon because it is important. Other activities, relative to Ireland, are being carried out by that person free of charge.

Mr. David Cooney

I know people are hot-desking there and using it. It is a very good system. As I said, there is no objection, or resistance, to anything the Chairman is suggesting from my Department.

If Taiwan expresses an interest in a double taxation agreement, such as the one in place in the UK, is that promoted or dealt with by Mr. Cooney's Department, by the Department of Finance or by both Departments?

Mr. David Cooney

The negotiation is done by the Department of Finance and the Revenue Commissioners but we have been active in facilitating that very recently because a letter has gone, or is about to go, to the Attorney General seeking to establish whether it is possible to do this. The issue there is that because we do not recognise Taiwan as a sovereign Government, we have to find a different formula in order to agree a double taxation agreement. The British have managed to find a way around this. We have been facilitating, with our legal division, the-----

One has the example of that document facilitating the agreement between Taiwan and the UK.

Mr. David Cooney

Exactly.

It should be possible, without in any way interfering with the political policy around China and Taiwan, to facilitate that.

Mr. David Cooney

I hope so. As I said, we have been seeking to facilitate that. We have been active in that regard.

Will Mr. Cooney pursue it because it has gone on for quite a while? Business people here would have a keen interest in it and that is why I raise it. I have been in the European office in Taipei and I have met people from the other European countries exploiting the market there and getting business done. We are at a loss by not having someone there.

Mr. David Cooney

As I said, I have no issue with, or resistance to, anything the Chairman has said.

I thank Mr. Cooney for his help on our visits to Ethiopia and to Mozambique. The Comptroller and Auditor General, Deputy Deasy and I visited Mozambique and we were greatly impressed by the work being done by the various NGOs, the Government representatives and by the many people participating at base level to make things happen. I am sure the Government parties here would have been very impressed that there was only one member of the opposition there and that he was chairman of the public accounts committee. I am sure that would impress Deputy Eoghan Murphy. That is the case.

I was glad to hear Mr. Rogers explain the funding through Governments separately. The work being done there, including by the embassy, is very positive and helpful, not only to those working there at the coalface but to people potentially looking for business, contacts and so on.

In explaining some of the workings of the embassy to Deputy Nolan, Mr. Cooney sold himself short. The people there do substantially more than what we understand them to do and they need to be recognised for that. I would not classify them as temporary janitors or anything else. I think they do an exceptional job. One has to experience it to understand it.

I mention the embassy in London, where Mr. Cooney was ambassador, and the co-operation with business people in the context of setting up a consortium to do business in Dubai, for example, because of the downturn in our economy. Substantial efforts were made in that regard. I have seen that happen in many embassies. Much more work is being done and it is not being counted. That is why I raised some of the questions on the workings of embassies. Perhaps Mr. Cooney might get an opportunity to expand a bit more on that some time.

I thank Mr. Cooney for his appearance today. Will this be his last appearance before us?

Mr. David Cooney

It will - I hope.

What about Mr. Rogers?

Mr. Brendan Rogers

Probably.

Can the list of those who are monitoring elsewhere be made available?

Mr. David Cooney

Yes.

I thank Mr. Cooney and Mr. Rogers for their contributions to the committee. They are backed up by many very good officials. It is good to have this exchange. It can be difficult but there is a job to be done and that dynamic must be observed. I acknowledge their positive input, not only today but on other occasions when they have appeared before the committee. I wish them well in the future.

Is it agreed that we dispose of Chapters 13, 27 and 28? Agreed.

Mr. David Cooney

Could I just respond?

Mr. David Cooney

When I mentioned that we were janitors, that is a little part-time nixer we do, unpaid and out of hours. Obviously, we do a lot more than that.

I would like to thank the Chairman and the committee for the interaction I have in my time as Secretary General. I am sure I speak for Mr. Rogers when I speak of the courtesy with which we have been received. The committee does an essential job vis-à-vis the Department in applying pressure and ensuring we test our own systems. I see the work of the committee not being in any way antagonistic to the work of the Department but as being essential to it.

The witnesses withdrew.
The committee adjourned at 2.25 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 13 March 2014.
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