COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 19 Jun 2014

Vote 31 - Transport, Tourism and Sport

Mr. Tom O'Mahony (Secretary General, Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport) and Ms Moyagh Murdock (CEO, Road Safety Authority) called and examined.

Chairman

I apologise to the witnesses for the delay. We had to attend to other matters. I ask witnesses, those in the Visitors Gallery and committee members to ensure their mobile phones are switched off because they interfere with the sound transmission.

Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside the House or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are reminded of the provisions in Standing Order 163 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policy or policies.

Members are reminded of the provisions of Standing Order 163 whereby the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

I welcome Mr. Tom O'Mahony, Secretary General of the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, and ask him to introduce his officials.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

With me I have Donagh Morgan, assistant secretary with responsibility for sports and HR in the Department, Caoimhín Ó Ciaruain, our finance officer, Maurice Treacy, principal officer with responsibility for road safety, and Dominic Mullaney, principal adviser with responsibility for roads and roads investment.

Chairman

I welcome Ms Moyagh Murdock, CEO of the RSA, and Mr. Pearse White, head of finance at the RSA. I also welcome Mr. Greg Darmody from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. They are all very welcome. I now call on the Comptroller and Auditor General to introduce the reports and relevant appropriation accounts.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The appropriation account for Vote 31 indicates that in 2012 the Department incurred expenditure of just over €2 billion. Some €1.7 billion, or approximately 83%, was spent on transport, with the remainder going to tourism, sport and the Department’s own administration expenses.

The majority of the Department’s expenditure is in the form of grant funding for other State agencies. For example, in 2012, the Department paid €1.1 billion to the National Roads Authority for its programmes of investment in the construction, improvement and maintenance of national, regional and local roads and PPP projects and the authority’s administration costs. Some €436 million was paid to the National Transport Authority in 2012 to fund public service obligation grants for transport operators, capital investment in public transport and administration expenditure. A supplementary estimate for Vote 31 was passed in November 2012 to increase the provision for the CIE companies, partly offset by savings on other programmes in the Vote. At year end, the amount liable for surrender was just over €4 million.

Chapter 14 deals with accumulating cash balances at the Road Safety Authority. In 2012, the authority had total income of €43.3 million. This included €13.6 million in State grant funding from Vote 31. The balance came from non-Exchequer sources, principally €12.5 million from application fees for driver testing and €15 million in proceeds from a statutory levy on the national car test. The authority incurred expenditure of €41.1 million in 2012, resulting in a surplus of €2.1 million for the year.

Substantial reductions in annual Exchequer funding to the authority since 2010 have been more than offset by increased income from other sources. As a result, ongoing annual surpluses have resulted in the build-up of substantial cash balances and accumulated revenue reserves. At the end of 2012, the authority’s bank balance amounted to €25.5 million and its accumulated revenue reserves amounted to €18.5 million. The bank balance included €2.7 million in fees paid for driving tests not yet taken. The chief executive officer will be able to update the committee on the bank balance and reserve levels at end 2013. The Department explained that the authority needed to have funds available for future capital projects and for contingencies. However, it was noted that addition to fixed assets by the authority in recent years was only of the order of €2 million to €3 million a year.

One of the core principles of public financial procedures is that State funds should only be issued to grantees to allow them to meet foreseeable funding requirements as they arise. Providing significant State funding in advance of when it is actually required has an opportunity cost in the form of interest on State borrowing.

Chapter 14 also reviewed the development of service level agreements between the Department and the authority associated with the funding provision. Annual service level agreements have been put in place to formalise the arrangement for the provision of services detailed in the authority’s annual business plans. These were specified in great detail, with approximately 260 output categories. The agreements provide for an annual review of the authority’s performance under the agreement, but this was not conducted for 2012. My report recommended that a smaller set of key performance indicators should be developed, with a balanced focus on the volume and quality of services. A formal review of actual performance against agreed targets should be conducted on an annual basis. The Accounting Officer and chief executive will be able to update the committee on progress in this regard.

The issues raised in the chapters on the management of the fixed charge notice system and the outsourced safety cameras are matters primarily for An Garda Síochána. Most of these have been covered in some detail at previous meetings of the committee, and I do not intend to repeat them. If required, I can outline findings on any specific aspect during the course of the meeting. Members may wish to note that just in the past couple of days, An Garda Síochána and the Department of Justice and Equality have announced changes to the administration of the fixed charge notice system that should deal comprehensively with all the recommendations addressed to the Garda Commissioner in Chapter 7.

The fixed charge notice system is primarily intended to have an impact on driver behaviour and to result in safer roads. These are objectives that are shared with both the Department and the Road Safety Authority. A key aspect of the overall penalty points system is the National Vehicle and Driver File. Responsibility for the file and for road traffic legislation rests with the Department. The authority deals with the issuing of driving licences.

One of the key objectives of the fixed charge notice system is to contribute to safer driving and reduce road accident casualties. The number of fatalities on Irish roads has declined rapidly from a peak in 2005. However, it is not clear to what extent this is attributable to the operation of the fixed charge notice system. We noted that a similar level of decline has occurred in road accident fatalities in other jurisdictions. For example, Ireland and the UK both achieved a 51% fall in road fatality rates per capita during the period 2002 to 2010, the latest period for which international comparisons were available. Other factors that contribute to the level of fatalities include vehicle design changes, better roads, trends in travel patterns and road safety promotion. The latter is a key activity of the authority.

One issue noted in chapter 7 relates to the incidence of unpaid fines for company vehicles, usually in cases where vehicles whose registered owners are companies are detected speeding. Because the companies declare that the drivers of the vehicles at the time cannot be identified, unpaid fines in such cases are not being pursued through the courts. This matter was raised in a 2003 report from my office. Legislation was passed in 2004 to address this, but Members may recall previous evidence that this was found to be ineffective. Revised legislation to enhance the existing provisions was passed in 2010, but had not been commenced at the time I reported. The Accounting Officer may be able to outline progress since then.

Chairman

Thank you. I now call Mr. O'Mahony.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

I have furnished the committee with an advanced briefing and have tried to strike the right balance in terms of the level of detail. However, I am always happy to get feedback, either directly or through the clerk to the committee, on whether the committee would like more or less detail on what is provided. As committee members have this briefing material, I will keep my opening remarks quite short.

As the Comptroller and Auditor General has said, in 2012 our overall gross expenditure was just over €2 billion. Almost 22% of this did not come from the Exchequer but from appropriations in aid, mainly motor tax receipts channelled through the local government fund. The Vote was split more or less 60:40 between capital and current spend. In 2012, some 84% of the Vote went towards the land transport programme, mainly roads at €1.1 billion, public transport investment at €254 million and public service provision payments at €290 million. The balance was divided between the tourism programme, at €143 million, sports at €80 million, maritime transport and safety, including the coastguard, at €70 million and civil aviation at €28 million. Our administrative budget represents just 1.7% of our overall programme spend, at €34.5 million.

The year 2012 was the first year of implementation of the comprehensive review of expenditure. The Department successfully delivered on the targeted reductions in its expenditure, achieving a 14% reduction on the previous year. This was achieved despite the fact we had to reallocate funding within our subheads in order to supplement the public service subvention for CIE.

Despite these financial constraints and a continuing and substantial reduction in our staffing levels, the Department contributed to a number of good outcomes for 2012 in transport, tourism and sport, and I will now give a quick overview of these. In transport, we oversaw an investment of €254 million in the upgrading of public transport infrastructure and services, including approval for the Luas cross-city project and the roll-out of the new Leap card.

We also administered €605 million in capital investment on national roads, €42 million in ongoing national roads maintenance and €377 million on regional and local roads. Some 1.73 million passenger journeys were funded through the rural transport programme. The national vehicle driver file collected €1 billion in motor tax receipts, issued 4.62 million motor tax discs and 671,000 driving licences.

It was also a successful year from a safety perspective. Road fatalities reached a record low of 162. The Irish Coast Guard responded to almost 2,000 incidents, assisting more than 2,700 people and saving more than 160 lives. The air accident investigation unit published 23 air accident reports.

While 2012 was a challenging year for tourism, revenue from overseas visitors increased by 4.5% to €3.68 billion. The sector saw a turnaround in fortunes from the US market, which was up by 10%. Employment in the tourism and hospitality industry grew by 5,000 to reach 185,000 and 2012 was also the year that launched The Gathering initiative, which delivered exceptional results in 2013.

The year 2012 was also good for sport. The programmes of the Irish Sports Council contributed to securing 64 medals at Olympic, Paralympic, world and European levels. We also re-launched the sports capital programme with €19.8 million paid out in sports capital grants and €31 million allocated under the new round.

On the two specific issues referred to by the Comptroller and Auditor General in his 2012 report, I will comment briefly as follows. As mentioned, the management of the fixed charge notice system is largely a matter for others but there is one recommendation in the report that relates to the responsibilities of the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport. This concerns the mismatch of driver information held by the Garda and by the national vehicle driver file. It is suggested that a regular review of information should be conducted between the two bodies.

The Department has been participating for the past year in a penalty points working group that has been addressing the difficulties relating to the gathering and exchange of accurate and up-to-date information within State agencies. As the committee is aware, there have been a number of examinations and reviews of the fixed charge notice and penalty points system over the past two years and, following the most recent report from the Garda Síochána Inspectorate, a criminal justice working group was established which comprises representatives of all relevant State agencies. The main function of the working group is to oversee and facilitate the recommendations contained in the inspectorate report. The group will subsume the work of the penalty points working group and therefore will address the issues raised in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. The criminal justice working group is required to report to the Government regularly and its first report will be submitted in July.

At the conclusion of his statement the Comptroller and Auditor General asked me to expand on the issue of company cars. This is not covered in my opening statement, so when we reach the question and answer session, I will deal with the matter in detail.

As regards chapter 14, which relates to Road Safety Authority cash reserves, I believe that the main conclusion to be drawn is a very positive one. Since the RSA was established, it has been moving from a position where it was very dependent on Exchequer funding, to the tune of €40 million in 2008, to an Exchequer allocation of only €3.37 million this year. It is expected to be entirely self-funding next year. It has achieved this even while taking responsibility for two new functions, the commercial vehicle roadworthiness service and the national driver licence service, each of which involved considerable initial outlay.

If an agency is going to be self-funding, it needs to carry sufficient reserves to meet the needs of its capital programme and also to deal with cyclical downturns in income. The latter point is a particularly important one that I am sure the chief executive officer will address in more detail later on. The recession has meant that we have an ageing car fleet. This means there is an above average demand for the national car test, NCT, and therefore a spike in income from that source. That trend will reverse as the economy grows in the future and people replace old cars with new ones so NCT income may fall for a time.

The annual service level agreements in place between the Department and the Road Safety Authority have proved successful in ensuring the Road Safety Authority has adequate funding to deliver its functions, including an essential capital programme, while also providing the mechanisms for identifying situations where the capital reserve exceeds the agreed amount in reductions to Exchequer draw-downs. The Road Safety Authority has not received any capital Exchequer allocation since 2010.

The report also identified a number of areas for improvement and made a recommendation as to how such improvements can be achieved. Recommendation 14.1 of the report suggests that the Department and the Road Safety Authority should develop key performance indicators and conduct a formal review of actual performance each year against those indicators. The Department has accepted this recommendation and, in addition to the monthly update meetings between the Department and the CEO of the Road Safety Authority that have taken place for some time, it will carry out a formal annual performance review this year. Key performance indicators are set out by the Road Safety Authority in its business plan for 2014, and these will also be reviewed in the context of the annual performance review.

That concludes my opening statement and I am happy to take the committee's questions.

Chairman

Can we publish Mr. O'Mahony's statement?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

Yes.

Chairman

I call on Ms. Murdock to make her opening statement.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

I thank the Chairman and the committee members for this opportunity to appear before the Committee of Public Accounts and assist in the examination of the Road Safety Authority's cash balances as highlighted in chapter 14 of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General for 2012.

I have been CEO at the Road Safety Authority for almost four months. With me today is Mr. Pearse White, head of finance at the authority. The RSA has achieved much in its relatively short lifetime. I have seen road deaths fall from 335 in 2003 to 190 in 2013. Aside from avoiding the loss and trauma suffered by families and society, reducing serious road collisions has a significant financial benefit. A recent evaluation of the first road safety strategy from 2007 to 2012, which was commissioned by the Government, notes that the impact of the strategy equates to stopping around 686 fatal collisions, 1,300 serious injury collisions and 650 minor collisions. This amounts to a monetary saving for the Exchequer and society of around €1.85 billion. The evaluation was conducted by the RPS Group using financial calculations set out by A&L Goodbody.

In the ten year period from 2003 to 2013 road fatalities have fallen by 43%. In the same period injuries have fallen by 16%. I have included a detailed report on the financial history of the RSA as part of this submission, including revenue and expenditure as set out by the Comptroller and Auditor General. The report outlines how the Road Safety Authority has utilised revenue and cash reserves in the first road safety strategy and how it has reduced dependency on Exchequer funding in recent years. This occurred against a backdrop of assuming additional statutory functions, as outlined by the Secretary General. The key statutory functions we adopted are the transfer of commercial vehicle roadworthiness testing from local authorities, implementation of the new driver licence service, responsibility for the approved driving instruction regulation, and regulation and provision of certificate of professional competence, CPC, training for bus and truck drivers. The authority also assumed responsibility under the carriage of dangerous goods regulation some years ago. All of the additional functions were assigned to the authority in accordance with statute and following detailed discussions with the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport on funding and resources. The additional statutory functions were assigned on condition that the authority would fund them from its own resources.

On behalf of the RSA I thank the committee members as elected representatives and all of their colleagues in the Oireachtas for the encouragement and support we continue to receive as we implement these projects. There was cross-party support for all of these areas and the two major projects in 2013 were the commercial vehicle roadworthiness test, CVRT, and the national driver licence service, NDLS. These were significant developments and there were hiccups along the way. However, I am happy to report that we are in a better position and further improvements will be delivered in the coming months.

As outlined in the submission, the Road Safety Authority has been funded through a combination of Exchequer and non-Exchequer funding. The Exchequer allocation for 2014 is approximately €3.37 million, and this represents 5% of projected income for the year.

The remaining 95% emanates from revenues generated by those services such as driver testing, licensing, commercial vehicle testing and national car testing. Both the Department and the authority expect us to be fully self-funding by 2015. It is in that context that the authority and the Department see it as appropriate that reserves are in place to ensure we are on a secure financial footing in the medium term. In any organisation it is considered good financial management to manage affairs prudently, provide for unforeseen expenditure, and have adequate liquidity on hand to cover short to medium-term cashflow demands.

The reserves held by the authority are essential in allowing us to implement the initiatives set out in the Government’s current Road Safety Strategy 2013-2020. They allow us to withstand unpredictable costs which may be incurred during early stages of some the major change projects, for instance, the commercial vehicle roadworthiness testing, CVRT, and the driver licence service.

The latter part of the detailed submission deals with the recommendation set out in the audit report of 2012. This has been adopted and I, as chief executive officer of the authority, meet the road safety division of the Department on the last Tuesday of every month to present our latest achievements, our key performance indicators, KPIs, and our road safety issues and future plans. This monthly meeting is used to update the Department on the authority’s performance in respect of each of the service delivery requirements contained within our service level agreement. Later this year I hope to have a full formal review with the Department on our overall performance.

I believe the Comptroller and Auditor General report on cash balances in the RSA demonstrates that the authority has exercised prudence and good financial management in the course of its operation in terms of its reserves. I also believe that the Road Safety Authority has continued to make very significant and demonstrable progress in improving road safety in Ireland through effective use of these reserves and also previous Exchequer funding. In the most recent rankings published, Ireland was sixth in Europe in terms of road safety, and this is in no short measure down to the continued investment in reform programmes, driver education, promotion, training and testing, enforcement and engineering.

Unfortunately, in 2013 we had 190 deaths on our roads. That is an increase of 28 on 2012 and demonstrates that there remains considerable scope for further achievements. So far in 2014 we are on the same level of fatalities as we were this time in 2013 in that 84 lives were lost on our roads, the most recent being a motorcyclist losing his life on the road last night.

The successes of the past indicate that further progress can be made provided effective policies and strategies are put in place and are resourced and funded appropriately into the future. The RSA has dealt with the complex legacy issues we inherited with many of the public services now under the authority’s remit at no additional cost to the Exchequer, and I am confident we will continue to do so into the future.

Chairman

Can we publish Ms Murdock's statement?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

Yes.

Deputy Derek Nolan

Mr. O'Mahony and Ms Murdock are very welcome. I want to focus on chapter 14 and the cash balances of the Road Safety Authority. I listened to the reasons Ms Murdock put forward for the large amount of money the Road Safety Authority has in the bank. Can Ms Murdock tell me what are the current retained revenues? What is the level of income currently in the bank?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

At the end of 2013 our balance was €19.5 million.

Deputy Derek Nolan

That is up from approximately €18.5 million on the previous year.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

It is. It is about €1 million of an increase.

Deputy Derek Nolan

Ms Murdock's organisation spends about €40 million a year. That is roughly the output if I am right. The figure was €42 million in 2012 and at the same time it has €20 million in the bank. That is a great deal of money. I have heard that there could be cyclical demand in the future, that there is a capital programme and that the authority is getting ready to be cut loose, so to speak, but €20 million, or half of the yearly spend of the authority, accumulating gradually over a number of years is a great deal of money to have in the bank. In chapter 14 the Comptroller and Auditor General points out that there is a cap set, the following year the authority's revenues increase, and therefore the cap is changed to accommodate that. Ms Murdock has said the money is for capital programmes, cyclical downturns and so on. Are they calculated figures? Are there plans in place? Are there budgets, costings or is it bigger than that?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

I will answer part of that question and ask Mr. White to give some more detail. As the Deputy said, there are significant cash balances on hand. We have reduced our dependency on Exchequer funding down to the current level of an allocation of €3.37 million this year. We also have a very detailed capital investment plan about which the Deputy asked. We have initiated the commercial vehicle reform programme. A significant amount of that capital is earmarked for the future development and the roll-out over the next few years. We have spent approximately €3 million this year on that programme, and over the next seven years approximately €27 million will be assigned to that particular project.

We also have a number of upfront costs with the new national driving licence service, NDLS, which also will consume allocations from the cash reserves. We also have a driving test and a State refurbishment programme in the pipeline. We are currently looking at an allocation of €4 million towards that where it was flagged that a number of upgrades and improvements are necessary in the driving test estate within the RSA. We have a number of other stakeholders involved in that process such as the Office of Public Works, OPW, and while on the surface it seems as if we have accumulated cash reserves, there is a timing issue at play, and that is in the pipeline. I do not know if Mr. White wants to add to that.

Deputy Derek Nolan

On the capital programme the RSA is planning to roll out, is it anticipated in future, when the organisation is independent of the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, that its own revenues will have to fund its capital programmes?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

It is, yes.

Deputy Derek Nolan

Are the capital programmes being rolled out unique in that they are significantly high? Are they once-off capital programmes or are they capital expenditure the RSA would have to roll out anyway? In other words, is there a good reason for giving the RSA this block funding now or is it being given block funding for functions it will be performing in perpetuity, as would any organisation?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

As part of the seven-year road safety strategy, we have 144 initiatives within that plan. A number of them, such as the major initiative on the commercial vehicle reform programme, would consume a significant amount of capital over the coming years. There will be smaller projects within that strategy that will be once-off projects but, equally, as we go forward and new challenges and issues arise on our roads that we need to deal with, either promotion campaigns or collaboration with An Garda Síochána in terms of enforcement strategies, we would be reviewing a variety of projects on an ongoing basis in our annual review of budgets and our five-year business plan. We will be identifying new projects, completing existing projects and launching some projects already at an advanced stage of development.

Deputy Derek Nolan

How much did the RSA get last year from the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

We were allocated €10 million-----

Mr. Pearse White

We were allocated €8 million-----

Ms Moyagh Murdock

Sorry.

Mr. Pearse White

-----and we drew down €6.5 million of an Exchequer allocation in 2013.

Deputy Derek Nolan

Of that €6.5 million, €1 million went in the bank; it was not spent.

Mr. Pearse White

Yes.

Deputy Derek Nolan

This question is to Mr. O'Mahony. When the Department is allocating the €6.5 million to the Road Safety Authority, and he knows it is building up these cash reserves, has the Department been given a detailed capital plan for the medium term on what this money is being put in the bank for?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

We have. That forms part of the ongoing discussion between the Department and the RSA on which we agree over the course of the year how much of its allocation we will allow it draw down. Last year, we did not allow it draw down the full allocation and the likelihood is that this year we will not allow it draw down the full allocation either. To put it in context, this was all foreseen when the legislation was being passed to set up this body.

My Department is responsible for a number of commercial semi-States. We do not give them money. We do not have a concern about the reserves except for ensuring the reserves are enough not to threaten the viability or solvency of the body. We then require it to pay us a dividend if it can afford to pay it.

When the Road Safety Authority was set up in 2006, section 28(6) of the Road Safety Authority Act 2006 stated specifically: “The Authority shall not, as a matter of course, be compelled to surrender to the Exchequer any moneys it has on hands at the end of a financial year and may retain such moneys to finance its operations but the Minister may require the Authority to pay a dividend to the Exchequer of an amount determined by him or her.” I will outline the track that we have been following. Around 2008, when the authority had geared up and was fully operational, it received about €40 million in Exchequer funding. This year, it will receive somewhere between €0 and €3.37 million. The latter is the allocation but it may end up getting nothing or a figure in-between. It will depend on how its commercial receipts – if we want to call them that – develop over the rest of this year. The intention is that from next year, it will be getting nothing. In terms of capital, it has not got any capital allocation from us since 2010. This is the process we have been going through.

We might not be calling the authority a commercial semi-State but we are effectively turning it into one, whereby it will be entirely self-funding. At the moment, we are effectively taking a dividend by not allowing the authority draw down the full amount of the allocation. If and when it has no allocation and there is surplus money available at the end of the year, we will take it by means of a dividend, but we are very conscious that the reasons the reserves have been accumulating at a faster rate than expected is because of what will not be a permanent pattern in the NCT. Therefore, there two things that the body must guard against, the first being a downturn. Second, it must provide for its capital programmes.

Deputy Derek Nolan

Why did the Department change the revenue reserves limit? It was set at about €16.4 million in January 2012 and raised to €20.2 million in November 2012.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

Given that Mr. Treacy is the person who supervises the ongoing discussions with the RSA, I will ask him to come in on that.

Mr. Maurice Treacy

When we had set it at €16.4 million at the start of the year, it was on the basis of information the RSA had given us. During that year, a report was produced on behalf of the RSA on the driver testing estate, as Ms Murdock has called it. This suggested that there was a need for an upgrade of the estate. To meet EU-level requirements on heavy goods vehicles and motorcycle testing, in particular, there was a requirement to upgrade the estate. The old testing centres were no longer fit for purpose, according to the report. Therefore, the RSA needed funding to expand, upgrade and refurbish the facilities that were still usable. We agreed, in that context, that we would extend the reserve by €4 million.

Deputy Derek Nolan

So the facts changed and a business case was put forward for raising the limit?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

Yes.

Deputy Derek Nolan

My next question concerns the commercial driving test issues and so on. It has been raised in particular by a number of people who are involved in testing or who drive lorries and so on. There are new requirements coming in based on directives from 2006 that have been superseded by a 2012 directive, yet the authority is implementing the old directive. Is Ms Murdock aware of that issue? Has it been raised with her?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

Is it to do with the six-gear person, the eight gears?

Deputy Derek Nolan

Yes. The automatic and so on.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

I will do my best to answer that question and perhaps draw on my engineering experience. That legislation was introduced under the EU regulations. We sought and got a derogation not to implement that back in 2012. We have had an extension at this stage, so as not to move to the eight-gear test standard. However, the situation is now that we have given many of the driving training schools an extension so they could have time to invest in new capital equipment so they can conduct training and carry out the tests. There is a feeling that it will impose some hardship on people but we have worked with the stakeholder group to push that out as far as possible. However, we are now in a position where we must implement the latest standard, which is an eight-gear driving test.

Deputy Derek Nolan

Is it the case that the standard will be out of date when a new directive is implemented that has already been agreed at EU level?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

I cannot answer that question at the moment; I would need to revert to the Deputy.

Deputy Derek Nolan

If Ms Murdock comes back to me on it, it will be helpful.

There are so many little points in the reports. It states in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General that the whistleblowers came to the Road Safety Authority with information in 2012. What was the reaction of the authority?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

I have included a chronology of the timeline from the moment my predecessor, Mr. Noel Brett, was notified of a potential issue. I have included that as part of the submission today. It began in October 2012 when he was advised that there was an issue. He took a call from Mr. Conor Faughnan of AA Roadwatch to advise him there was an issue. When our chairman received that information, he immediately informed a number of people, as set out in the chronology. I will not go through it line by line. In summary, he contacted GSOC and the Comptroller and Auditor General and he advised An Garda Síochána. He then met the whistleblower face to face. He reported to his board the exact nature of that meeting, and then he proceeded to submit the detailed report to the GSOC body. Following that, there were a number of letters to and from different agencies, including to the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport. It was just to advise him that this was in train. Following that, the involvement of the authority was very limited in that we had passed over the file to the relevant bodies. We awaited outcomes of investigations and reports. One investigation, the one with GSOC, is ongoing.

I have a detailed list. If anyone has any particular question, he may ask it. The list starts on 9 October 2012. The last communication would have been on 5 September. It was in and around that time that my predecessor departed from the Road Safety Authority to avail himself of a new opportunity.

Deputy Derek Nolan

I appreciate that Ms Murdock was not in the authority at the time. The authority is the public face of reducing the number of road deaths, promoting proper driver behaviour, enforcement, etc. What was the view in the organisation as to the response to the concerns which, given the chronology of events just pointed out, it took very seriously?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

Without trying to second-guess my predecessor's reaction, it would be reasonable for me to say there was serious concern that this could be a potential issue and was happening. Basically, I assume the feeling was that this needed to be addressed at the appropriate level and that if there was substance to it, obviously corrective action and remedial initiatives would have be taken, and it would have to be brought to the attention of the relevant authorities. I am sure it caused shock and concern to the layperson.

Deputy Derek Nolan

When did the Road Safety Authority let the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport know that it had this meeting and interaction?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

We have copies of the letters available for members of the committee if they wish to look at them. Following the authority's board meeting in October 2012 and Mr. Brett's advice to the board, a letter was issued to the Minister and also to GSOC to advise it. That was in and around 25 October or 26 October.

Deputy Derek Nolan

I do not see which one is the letter to the Minister.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

He is not included in the correspondence but there was a letter on 29 May 2013. Sorry, there were meetings with the Minister.

Deputy Derek Nolan

When were the meetings?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

Can I assist by saying that Sergeant McCabe, possibly before coming to the RSA, had also come to the Department? We had been in possession of the material before he engaged with the RSA. I can deal with that now or-----

Ms Moyagh Murdock

I want to clarify on the correspondence as my finance manager has reminded me that in fact we corresponded directly through the Department to the Minister. It would have been through the-----

Deputy Derek Nolan

When was that?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

Would it have been at the monthly meeting?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

I think so. I think there was formal correspondence from the chair of the RSA to the Minister also, but I am not certain of the date. If I can just add to it-----

Deputy Derek Nolan

When the RSA was writing to GSOC and the Comptroller and Auditor General, was it at the same time as with the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport or was there a gap?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

Our first involvement was in August 2012, which was somewhat earlier than the RSA's involvement. Sergeant McCabe came to the Department with the dossier of information. My colleague, Mr. Treacy, met him and at a later stage, though I am not sure when, Sergeant McCabe also met the Minister. When the information was provided to us it was clearly of great concern. However, the problem for us was that the information - as everyone now knows since the information is in the public domain and has been the subject of various reports - was in essence on the manner in which gardaí were or were not enforcing the legislation. Of course, we formulate the legislation but it is for gardaí to enforce it. The Department of Justice and Equality oversees that. As with other Departments, we have a member of staff from the Office of the Attorney General assigned to us. We consulted with her and took legal advice on what we should do. The advice was that we should give the information to the Department of Justice and Equality. We did that in September 2012. There was subsequently correspondence between our Minister and the Minister for Justice and Equality also. That was really the only route we could go with the information as gardaí do not have any direct line of accountability to us.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

I add to that as I spoke to Mr. Noel Brett yesterday to clarify communications and ensure there was no other correspondence in the loop which we might have missed. I asked if there had been anybody else corresponded with. Mr. Brett made the point there was not. Once he received the report from the whistleblower, Sergeant Maurice McCabe, he communicated with GSOC and the Comptroller and Auditor General. After that, he did not discuss the issue with any other party as he felt it would have been entirely inappropriate to raise it with anybody else outside that audience. That is probably why there is no direct correspondence to the Department and the Minister. I had that question from the committee before the meeting, but I was thinking in the context of An Garda Síochána if there was any other correspondence. The same reason would apply to anybody else outside the GSOC body and the Comptroller and Auditor General. Once the report had been submitted and the investigations initiated, Mr. Noel Brett did not discuss it with anybody else.

Deputy Derek Nolan

To clarify, he corresponded with GSOC and the Comptroller and Auditor General, but he did not correspond with the Minister - with any Department.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

I would have to ask the Department on that one. I can only go on the detailed file in the RSA, which is a very detailed one with a lot of fine notes on it. There is no correspondence directly to anybody outside GSOC and the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

I think that we may say, bearing in mind the sensitivity of this, that it would certainly have been mentioned at the monthly meeting with the Department. However, the Department would have responded that we were aware of the information and had already given it to the Department of Justice and Equality. In other words, both the RSA and ourselves knew that both parties had been given this information. We both knew what we had done with it. We had put it into what we were advised were the appropriate channels considering that neither the RSA or ourselves could directly hold gardaí to account for this. We needed to pass it on to those who could.

Deputy Derek Nolan

The official meeting that happened every month was used to pass information from the RSA to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport about concerns received from the whistleblower.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

I will ask Mr. Maurice Treacy to confirm that. He would have been part of those meetings.

Mr. Maurice Treacy

I suspect so. It may have been discussed at one of our monthly meetings. We are in contact on a regular basis with the RSA and it may have come up in telephone conversations in the meantime.

Deputy Derek Nolan

This issue has moved on a great deal since then. The chief executive of the RSA had meetings with Garda whistleblowers to discuss incidents he considered so important that he reported them to GSOC and the Comptroller and Auditor General. I would like to know if he also felt it was appropriate or if he was comfortable enough to report it to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

Having spoken to Noel Brett, he was emphatic that he did not discuss the matter outside the audience he communicated with - GSOC and the Comptroller and Auditor General report. He felt it would be entirely inappropriate. At the monthly meeting with An Garda Síochána, he had a very detailed agenda and that was not an item on it. It may have been the elephant in the room but it was not discussed. I reassure the Deputy. I am sure that if the Deputy wants to communicate directly with Mr. Brett, he will be happy to confirm that.

Deputy Derek Nolan

He corresponded with the two bodies and did not feel it appropriate to inform the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

I do not know what he felt, but I know he corresponded with-----

Deputy Derek Nolan

He did not have any communication with the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport on the issue.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

I am just saying there was no written correspondence with the Departments outside GSOC and the Comptroller and Auditor General. He got confirmation from both those bodies that they had received it and that it would be dealt with appropriately. There was some follow up confirmation communication on that. I am happy to make the file available to the committee if it wants to examine it in more detail. We took the time to examine the old email account of the chief executive and can confirm that there was no other meeting to discuss whistleblowers or penalty points outside the line of communication that I have presented here today.

Chairman

In relation to the file and the Department and whatever information Ms Murdock has, can she check with Mr. Brett and give us a copy of the file? Can she include correspondence with the Department of Justice and Equality whether from 2012 or before it and right up to date so that we can have a complete picture? Rather than wondering about Mr. Brett, can she ask him to check the files from the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, her own files and the Department of Justice and Equality so that the committee gets a complete file we can examine?

As Deputy Nolan said, this matter has moved on but we have a report to complete and it would be helpful to us as a public accounts committee if we had that from the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, the RSA and Department of Justice and Equality and the file was double-checked with Mr. Brett to ensure the committee has whatever correspondence went on by way of telephone call, e-mail or hard copy.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

Yes.

Chairman

I ask that Ms Murdock would do that as a matter of priority.

Deputy Derek Nolan

I have two final questions. I wish to follow on from the issue the Comptroller and Auditor General found lay with the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, namely, company cars. He raised it in 2003 and there was an attempt to deal with it in 2004 that did not work out. It is still an issue. Can Mr. O'Mahony update us on that?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

The issue here is where a car is picked up by the speed cameras and is found to be registered to a company rather to an individual. The question then relates to who is driving. A provision was put into the Road Traffic Act 2004 so that if the registered owner of the car did not give information as to who was actually driving it, the registered owner was responsible for the offence. If the registered owner was a company, it would mean that the company would have to pay the fixed charge penalty but, of course, that would mean that no penalty points would be assigned anywhere, so from a company's point of view, the penalty is probably a fairly minor deterrent. In order to strengthen that, the 2010 Act included a new provision that gave the Garda the power to seek information from a company regarding the driver details - in other words, the member of staff who had this car registration out at a particular time on a particular day. Non-compliance was made an offence with a maximum penalty of €5,000.

That part of the Road Traffic Act 2010 is not yet commenced because, unfortunately, it is in the same part of the Act as a provision dealing with what we refer to as the third payment. I will explain what the third payment is and the difficulties in this area. The problem is that the Act is drafted in such a way that these two provisions are entirely intertwined so it is not possible to commence the company car provision until we can commence the provision about the third payment. I am assuming the Deputy has never been unfortunate enough to get penalty points, but if he had been-----

Deputy Derek Nolan

No comment.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

If he had received penalty points, he would have received a letter with a fine and the penalty points. One is supposed to go to a police station, pay the fine and give one's driving licence details so the penalty points can be recorded. If a person does not do it in a prescribed period of time, they get another letter and the fine is increased. If they still ignore it, they will get a summons. Under the legislation as it is at the moment, there is no "out" from going to court at that point. If a person has ignored the first two letters, they are definitely going to court and there is no other provision. It was agreed by the Oireachtas that it would probably improve the efficiency of the system and reduce the demands on the courts system if the person could have the option of paying a further increased fine at the point at which a summons is issued. In other words, they would have a third option of going to the post office, paying an increased amount again and having the points recorded on their licence.

At the time we were drafting the legislation, everybody was in agreement with the principle of this and the courts and the Garda were anxious to have it in place, so it was put into the legislation and the legislation was passed in 2010. It then ran into implementation difficulties. The implementation is between the Garda and the courts, but it was going to require significant resources, including the development of IT systems. Unfortunately, we were now into the period of severe cutbacks in everybody's resources and it became an issue for quite a period of time that neither the courts nor the Garda were in a position to proceed with the development of the IT systems that would enable this measure to be implemented. Our legal advice was that one could not commence the provision until these systems were in place.

The light at the end of the tunnel is that over the past number of months, particularly in light of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report and the various other things that have happened, there has been a major effort, through the group co-chaired by our Department and the Department of Justice and Equality, which includes the Garda and the courts, to resolve all outstanding issues around penalty points. We are able to do this because of the previous issue we were talking about, namely, the fact that the RSA is reducing its demand on us. We are coming up with a substantial financial contribution, although the systems are not our systems. We are making the money available along with the Department of Justice and Equality so that these IT systems can be developed. I need confirmation on whether it is the courts or the Garda that has taken ownership of it.

Mr. Maurice Treacy

The Garda.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

The Garda has taken ownership of it. This will finally be put to bed and the third payment and company car systems will come into place at the same time when we commence the legislation - hopefully, some time over the next year.

Deputy Derek Nolan

Over the next year?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

Over the next year, I would say.

Deputy Derek Nolan

The last time Mr. O'Mahony appeared before the committee, we had a pretty in-depth discussion about the evasion rate for motor tax. A previous report from the Comptroller and Auditor General's report spent a considerable amount of time detailing the evasion rate. New legislation was being discussed at the time. Can Mr. O'Mahony update me on that?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

I can. The legislation from the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government is colloquially referred to as "gapping". It basically aims to remove the possibility people had in the past of declaring a vehicle as having been off the road after the event. This was regarded as being the primary method people used to evade motor tax. That legislation came into place last summer. When we had the discussion last year, there was general agreement, particularly based on the surveys we had done using the cameras on the M50, that the evasion rate was in the region of 5%, or 5%-plus. At the end of May, 149,000 more vehicles were taxed than had been the case during the same period last year. Gerry O'Malley, who heads the national vehicle and driver file, was with us for the discussion last year and is absolutely recognised as the greatest expert in the country on motor taxation, estimates, based on his knowledge of new car sales and what one would expect to happen, that the taxing of 130,000 of those vehicles is attributable to the gapping measures. We regard the actual live fleet of cars in the country as being about 2.6 million. Doing the maths on that, we would estimate that there has been a 5% increase in the number of cars taxed specifically on foot of the closing of that loophole in that legislation. That 5% is of the same general order as what we were estimating last year. I am not claiming for a minute that nobody evades motor tax, but I think it can safely be said that this is a very significant return on the work involved in developing that legislation. We would put the motor tax value of that at somewhere north of €50 million.

Deputy Derek Nolan

Fifty million euro was the estimated cost?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

Yes.

Deputy Derek Nolan

So the figure of €50 million has been wiped out?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

Yes.

Deputy Derek Nolan

That is very good work.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

I thank the Deputy for giving me the opportunity to mention it.

Deputy Derek Nolan

Well, I gave Mr. O'Mahony a hard enough time about it the last time, so we will let him clear it up.

Chairman

In respect of a question asked by Deputy Nolan relating to the courts and the recording of the penalty points on licences, could Mr. O'Mahony clarify whether anyone has assessed or whether anyone has a figure for the number of individuals who, having appeared in court, have not had penalty points allocated to their licences?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

Not that I am aware of.

Chairman

Is there a substantial number of them? In other words, if a person appears in court and pays a fine, the answer is that they will not get penalty points until such time as the Department brings in this-----

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

This is the business whereby people appear in court, pay the fine and do not produce the driving licence?

Chairman

Yes.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

The first thing to say is that this should not be happening at all.

Chairman

But it is happening.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

I know. It should not be happening because the courts should not be allowing it to happen. Going to court for a fixed charge notice offence and not producing the licence is itself an offence. What should be happening in those circumstances is that the person should be convicted, but the details of the non-production of the licence should then be passed on to the Garda so the person can be prosecuted again. That would be a disincentive to people doing it.

Chairman

In view of the fact that it is not happening-----

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

It is not happening in some cases.

Chairman

In some cases.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

Yes.

Chairman

The question is whether it is widespread. How many cases of the non-allocation of penalty points are in the system? What steps have been taken to ensure it does not happen? Surely somebody must have a handle on what is going on in respect of that issue.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

The appropriate people to ask about that issue would be the courts or the Department of Justice and Equality because they are responsible for enforcement. What we are trying to do in order to stop it happening, through the group we have, which involves the courts and the Garda Síochána, is to engage with the courts on the type of instructions that issue to individual courts and, effectively, to get everybody on board. Clearly, what is happening in some courts, whether it is the judge or court officials, is that they do not fully understand what they are supposed to be doing. That is the only explanation for it because it is fairly black and white. If one appears and one does not have the licence, one has committed another offence.

Chairman

In view of the fact that the witness sits with them, will he ask them for me?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

Is the Chairman wondering if there is-----

Chairman

It would save me going around the house.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

We can certainly-----

Chairman

An analysis of-----

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

We will find out if there is any quantification available. We will respond to the committee one way or the other. If there is any quantification available, we will get it for the committee.

Chairman

I thank Mr. O'Mahony. I call Deputy Robert Dowds.

Deputy Robert Dowds

I thank Mr. Tom O'Mahony, Ms Moyagh Murdock and their colleagues for appearing before the committee. I will commence with the Road Safety Authority. In respect of the increase in the number of road deaths recorded, which we very much regret, what is the reason for the turnaround? How can we get back to the continuing decline that was experienced from 1972 to 2012? I pay tribute to the work done because according to Mr. O'Brien's figures there were 604 road deaths in 1972 which went down to 162 in 2012. That was a huge achievement over those years but I do not want to see that figure increasing.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

First, there was an increase of 28 road deaths in 2013. So far in 2014, the number has remained constant. The nature of the fatality has changed. There has been a 25% reduction in driver fatalities. However, we have seen an increased number of deaths in more vulnerable road users.

Deputy Robert Dowds

Cyclists and pedestrians?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

It is pedestrians and motorcyclists. The Deputy may have heard yesterday's weekly message stating that two young people under the age of 16 were killed, a total of eight up to now. This is two more than for the whole of last year. That is a very worrying trend. We have also had an increase in the number of deaths in older road users, primarily motorcyclists. A number of campaigns and promotion programmes are in place. Of the ten motorcyclists deaths so far this year, five have been domestic Irish drivers and five have been tourists on holiday in Ireland. They have been very freakish accidents that one could not necessarily mitigate against. However, through our promotional campaigns we are working in tandem with the Garda Síochána to increase visibility and enforcement of the legislative provisions relating to the use of mobile telephones. We have a number of strong campaigns in train to try to reverse that trend. In terms of drivers themselves, there has been a reduction in the number of deaths. The message is to take personal responsibility. Speed is the single biggest factor in road fatalities and we have to get that message across.

Deputy Robert Dowds

Would I be right in thinking that the worst roads in terms of fatalities are minor rural roads?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

The majority of fatalities take place on roads that have a speed limit of 50 km or less. Density is probably an issue, also pedestrianisation, cyclists and distractions, with people walking with iPods and not being aware of the risks around them. That is a big factor.

Deputy Robert Dowds

Is the witness able to answer a question about the national car test, NCT?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

I will do my best.

Deputy Robert Dowds

Does Ms Murdock recall the abuses reported in respect of the operation of certain NCT centres? Does the Road Safety Authority have a role in ensuring they operate above board and is it satisfied they are all operating above board now?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

Yes, I can answer that question. Following those allegations and subsequent findings of incidences of fraud, the Road Safety Authority has a robust auditing system in place with the operators to ensure that vehicles are presented with the correct driver-owner associated with it. A regular audit procedure is in place. We have introduced much more transparency in that the client sees his or her vehicle go through a test and everybody else sees it. That is also part of the commercial vehicle testing programme. All vehicles are filmed as they go through a test so there is full visibility of the procedure. There are no short cuts and no attempt to present a different vehicle than should be in the lane. An independent audit is carried out by PwC and AA Ireland to ensure the integrity of the test, the findings and the testers. If we have a report of an incident of inappropriate conduct on a test, it is dealt with very promptly. We have had a number of disciplinary actions in the past 12 months and swift action has been taken. They have been investigated and appropriate action taken. I am satisfied that we have a robust system in place subsequent to those earlier issues that were identified a number of years ago.

Deputy Robert Dowds

Moving more towards the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport-----

Ms Moyagh Murdock

To clarify, we also have a whistleblowing policy in place with the NCT centres so that staff can report incidences of wrongdoing and receive-----

Deputy Robert Dowds

Is that anonymously or do they have to give-----

Ms Moyagh Murdock

Anonymously.

Deputy Robert Dowds

I thank Ms Murdock. I turn to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport. One of the aims of the Department's mission statement is to get people to leave their cars aside, people like me who probably should not drive in here every day, as I am a Dublin Deputy. What is it planned to do in that regard? What is the position regarding the use of public transport particularly in this city but in cities generally and is there any sign of moving away from the use of private cars? What type of proactive policies are in place to encourage that move? There is no doubt the Department is right to do that. As a city we are very poor in terms of public transport compared to equivalent cities in other parts of Europe.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

There are a couple of dimensions to that question. One is having more public transport options in place. Given the cutback in expenditure in recent years, projects such as the DART underground and metro have had to be put on hold. However, the Luas cross-city project is being developed at present. Working with the public transport system, there is much that can be done and has been done in the past two or three years to make it a more attractive alternative for the customer. The impact of the Leap card and the real time passenger information has exceeded expectations. In April 2014, the 500,000th Leap card was sold, which was way ahead of the targets set.

As the committee is probably aware, new initiatives are being rolled out almost on a monthly such as fare capping. Today a tourist Leap card will be announced. The idea behind the initiative is that one will eventually be able to know that public transport will not cost above a certain amount. Even if one must use a train to travel part of the journey and then a bus, or whatever, one will have a daily and weekly limit, etc. The realtime passenger information service has put people in a situation-----

Deputy Robert Dowds

That information is not always accurate.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

That is true.

Deputy Robert Dowds

My wife, as a regular bus user, complains to me about the information displayed suddenly changing when one thinks a bus is about to arrive.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

There are technical reasons for that happening and, quite often, it relates to traffic or whatever. I use public transport and I am one of the people that I talked about who use the train and bus to complete a journey. Therefore, I can vouch that it is useful to be able to read realtime information on a smartphone. Let me give a practical example. There are a number of different bus stops located on the streets of the city centre. With realtime information one can check which bus will come first and therefore locate oneself at the right bus stop. It is a small thing but it might persuade somebody to use public transport. Also, the availability of Wi-Fi on buses and trains has proved a significant advantage.

Since the start of this year the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport and his Minister of State, the latter of which has responsibility for public transport, have met the chief executives of all of the public transport companies for a monthly meeting. This year there is a target to increase the usership of public transport by 2% which equates to 5 million visits. The monthly meeting with the chief executives are used to outline how the figures are going and what other initiatives are being put in place. The National Transport Authority, which is responsible for the Leap card and provides oversight, is also in attendance. There is a lot happening.

As somebody who has used public transport for a long time, the current offering is better now than it was a number of years ago but it is not the only means by which we are trying to get people out of their cars. I am certain that the committee is aware of the huge amount of initiatives that have happened in Dublin, and in other cities, for the past number of years in terms of cycling. The Dublin bike scheme is probably the most successful scheme around. There are similar schemes all over the world but the Dublin bike scheme has been recognised as one of the most successful. Yesterday, a major expansion of the scheme was announced and the scheme has also been rolled out in some other cities.

Deputy Robert Dowds

Let us return to my original question. Has the Department seen a trend away from the car towards either bicycles or public transport?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

Yes, the trends do show an increase in cycling and walking. The difficulty with trends in public transport is that figures for the past number of years were affected by the recession. Obviously with fewer people working, and people less inclined to shop and so on, the numbers have fallen off. The situation has stabilised and we are now beginning to see an increase in numbers.

I do not want to sound over aspirational or naive but the car is still far too dominant as our primary mode of transport. We still have a lot of work to do in this area. The Department is not in any sense anti-car but it is a bit frustrating to see city streets clogged with single driver vehicles which causes delays when there are alternatives available. It is a question of encouraging people more to avail of the alternatives.

Deputy Robert Dowds

The Luas cross-city project has led to Dawson Street and other places being dug up. When does the Department expect the project to be completed? How much will the project cost overall?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

At the moment the preparatory works are being done such as moving utilities. The main contract will start early next year and it is expected that the service will be operational by the end of 2017. The budget for the project, excluding VAT, is around €368 million of which we got a loan of €150 million from the European Investment Bank.

Deputy Robert Dowds

Did we provide the remainder?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

The rest of the money came from the Exchequer. It is not a public private partnership.

Deputy Robert Dowds

Do we still have to pay out money for projects that are not going ahead such as Metro north and Metro west? Have all the costs involved in those dead projects been spent?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

A lot of costs were accumulated for those projects because a lot of costs were involved in the design. In some cases there were land acquisition costs but I am not certain that I have those figures with me. I can send a note on the figure to the committee secretariat if I do not have it to hand.

Deputy Robert Dowds

I would appreciate that.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

We should not, at this point, incur further costs.

Deputy Robert Dowds

What are the public transport investment priorities for the next five years?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

A decision must be made about the DART underground.

Deputy Robert Dowds

Does the Secretary General mean the interconnection between Heuston station, St. Stephen's Green and the DART?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

Yes. The project was going to be the centrepiece of the public transport investment programme because it would have brought huge benefits to the city. Due to the situation that we have been in that project has not been affordable. It was a PPP project on a huge scale. For a period, and for reasons I do not need to go into, the PPP market was not interested in Ireland. In any case, the Exchequer was not in a position to fund the scheme with the necessary amount.

Earlier this year there was a court ruling on the railway order for the project. It means that if properties or lands must be acquired compulsorily for this project then notices to treat will have to be issued by September of next year. The court ruling reduced the period in which that must happen. A notice to treat has the effect of committing the State to buy the lands or properties concerned. Therefore, the Government must decide, before September of next year, whether the DART underground project will proceed. If the Government decides to proceed, the DART underground will be the major public investment project of the next seven or eight years.

As for investment priorities, there is a point that is generally not well understood and we did not fully understand the scale of it until we studied it. The fact is a huge amount of capital investment is required just to maintain the capital assets that we have, and that is without bringing anything new into the system. By that I mean properly maintaining the roads and also maintaining the rail network, which is extremely expensive. Over the past year, with the help of a lot of transport experts, we have done work on - and I think such work has never been properly done - trying to tie down precisely how much each year, on average, the State must invest in maintenance of the network. That is just to maintain it at a steady state so it does not deteriorate. The figure is higher than the figure we are currently spending on our total transport investment programme which is a significant issue. The Minister will publish the work that we have done on this issue in the form of a public information and consultation document. When the Government gets into planning the next capital investment programme, as it will do in the near future, and one which will presumably run for the next four or five years, we will make a case that before consideration is given to new roads or public transport schemes, full provision is made for the cost of maintenance.

Even before consideration is given to new road or public transport schemes, it is important to make full provision for the cost of maintenance. We have not been doing that for a few years. We can get away with that for a few years but it means, in the case of the roads, a point will be reached at which the remedial work needed on the roads, because we did not do steady maintenance, is more expensive in the long run. In the case of rail, we reach a point at which we must stop services on certain lines because an inability to properly maintain railway lines is giving rise to potential safety issues. The major issue for us in respect of transport investment for the foreseeable future will be making sure we have enough to properly maintain the network that has already been invested in at a cost of billions of euros over recent years.

Deputy Robert Dowds

I appreciate the comments about maintenance. It is very important. What is the best guess of the witnesses about whether we will get the go-ahead for the interconnector from Heuston?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

I cannot guess what decision the Government will make. There would be no argument about the benefit, which everyone recognises. However, there are competing priorities in all areas of investment and the Government must decide between them.

Deputy Robert Dowds

Are there not such strong economic benefits attached to this, not just in terms of providing good public transport in Dublin but in respect of Dublin's key role in the Irish economy, that it must be a top priority? I accept that Mr. O'Mahony cannot make this decision and, in a sense, those on our side of the fence must do so.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

The decision will be a policy matter. From a factual point view, there is no difficulty in documenting the cost-benefit analysis and showing the return, but the policy decision involves weighing it up against similar opportunities in education and other areas. I am glad I am not the person making the decision.

Deputy Robert Dowds

Mr. O'Mahony will be able to provide those who make policy decisions with all the information showing the benefits.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

We know the decision must be taken next year. The business case for the project was done in 2010 so the National Transport Authority is fully updating the business case to take account of changes in population trends, transport demand and capital costs. We will have an up-to-date business case on which the Government can make a decision.

Deputy Robert Dowds

Will there be a break before Mr. O'Brien comes in?

Chairman

We will have a break for a few minutes and then Mr. O'Brien will commence.

Deputy Sean Fleming

I welcome the witnesses. With regard to the departmental Vote, and following up on the issue raised by Deputy Dowds, in the year under review the road improvement maintenance figure was €1.111 billion. Can we have a breakdown of that between new construction projects funded by the NRA, PPP commitments in respect of the motorways, and maintenance payments? What is the approximate breakdown of the €1.1 billion?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

Given that I brought my roads expert, Mr. Dominic Mullaney, with me, I will ask him to provide the detail on this.

Mr. Dominic Mullaney

It is split between the national roads and regional and local roads. Some €605 million is related to capital works on national roads.

Deputy Sean Fleming

Does this apply to the year under review?

Mr. Dominic Mullaney

Yes. Capital works consist of improvement works and pavement improvement works. Maintenance on national roads amounts to €42 million and €281 million for capital, with €96 million for regional and local roads.

Deputy Sean Fleming

What about PPP projects?

Mr. Dominic Mullaney

They can vary, but currently it is running at approximately €60 million. It might have been higher in 2012, at some €74 million.

Deputy Sean Fleming

In terms of new work on national roads, €600 million is a big figure. Is it just a handful of projects?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

Is the Deputy referring to 2012?

Deputy Sean Fleming

Yes, or now. I do not mind.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

I will provide the 2012 projects because I have them written in front of me. In 2012, the major projects were the N3 Belturbet bypass, the N5 Longford bypass, the N25 Cork South Ring Road interchanges, the N22 and N69 Tralee bypass, the N4 grade separation at the Downes and the N52 Carrick Bridge to Dalystown section. Mr. Mullaney can add some current projects.

Mr. Dominic Mullaney

The only one that has started since is the Ballaghaderreen bypass, which started in late 2012 or early 2013. The Ballaghaderreen bypass can be added to the list provided by Mr. O'Mahony, but no major Exchequer-funded project started in 2014. There were advances on the PPP side. In 2013, the Newlands Cross M11 project, from Arklow to Rathnew, proceeded, and this year, the Gort to Tuam section of the N17 and N18 has the go-ahead and has reached financial close.

Deputy Sean Fleming

I would like to witnesses to talk about the projects mentioned and, specifically, the Newlands Cross M11 project. It is a PPP, so the Department provided funding to the NRA to proceed with the project. The Department funds major construction projects and receives that through a Vote from the Oireachtas, which works its way through the NRA to the PPP project. What action does Mr. O'Mahony take to ensure the projects funded from the Oireachtas are being carried out in a manner compliant with tax and social welfare codes? What specific procedures are in place for these projects? We went through this with the Department of Education and Skills on the schools building projects. Subcontractors on the projects insist that the people working on them are in receipt of, and continue to claim, jobseeker's allowance so that they do not have to pay the official rate. This is an ongoing situation with major Government contracts. Someone gets the contract, the Department washes its hands of it and it goes down to a subcontractor, who insists on taking people who are on the dole. Not only that; the workers cannot get their PRSI paid and when the work is over, the workers have made no PRSI contributions. The tender was granted on the basis that the workers were paid the approved construction industry rates. The employer got the job but is not paying the rates tendered for. Will the Secretary General investigate these issues?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

I can tell the committee what we do.

Mr. Dominic Mullaney

I will take the Deputy's point.

The NRA engages an outside organisation on its behalf to check the PPP companies that are doing the work. I do not have the full details here but I can certainly get more details for the committee. The NRA has audits carried out on all of the PPP projects in which it is involved to ensure the companies are tax compliant and not engaged in the black economy.

Deputy Sean Fleming

I am not suggesting for a minute that the PPP company which won the contract is involved in the black economy. However, PPP companies which win contracts employ subcontractors and in turn those subcontractors often employ other subcontractors and so on and somewhere down the line, the poor guy who is working there is made to seek jobseeker's allowance, is breaking all sorts of laws and is not enjoying basic employment rights. In addition, someone is making money by not paying workers the going rate.

Mr. Dominic Mullaney

My understanding is that the checking process goes down the line. We can certainly seek a note from the NRA regarding-----

Deputy Sean Fleming

Can we get a note on the projects we have just mentioned?

Mr. Dominic Mullaney

Yes. I will ask the NRA to outline how comprehensive the checking process is.

Deputy Sean Fleming

I think the issue is there; the problem exists. I have referred to it here in the context of school building projects in the past. Contractors were complicit in this and were actually transporting people to dole offices and back to the sites. I am not saying it is happening on this project but it has happened on other Government projects. It happened on Department of Education and Skills projects on a wide scale for many years and is now happening on Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport projects. I have made my point on that.

Last year the NRA conducted a very interesting experiment when it lifted the tolls for trucks on some of our motorways to try to encourage hauliers to use those motorways and stay out of smaller towns. I live in Laois where there are lots of bypasses but I have noted an increase in the number of articulated trucks travelling through the towns again. How successful was that experiment? Did the NRA have to pay a fee to the toll companies? Can the witnesses talk me through it and outline the lessons learned. Can the experiment be repeated? I am aware that in countries like Germany, trucks travel for free on tolled roads at night. The idea is to encourage hauliers to stay out of towns and to travel at night. I ask the witnesses to describe what seemed like a worthy experiment and its outcome.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

In terms of whether it will be repeated, that is a policy matter for the Minister. I will ask Mr. Mullaney to explain how it worked and what we learned from it.

Mr. Dominic Mullaney

It cost somewhere in the order of €1.2 million. Essentially, trucks were paid for through a contractual arrangement with the PPP companies. In some cases it was very beneficial. There was a 70% increase in the number of trucks using the tunnel in Limerick, for example. In the case of the M1-----

Deputy Sean Fleming

The M1 or the N1?

Mr. Dominic Mullaney

On the M1 or the Dundalk bypass, the increase was only 17%. The increase on the M3 was also 17% while the increase on the N6 in Galway was 16%.

Deputy Sean Fleming

Did Mr. Mullaney say 70% in Limerick?

Mr. Dominic Mullaney

Yes, 70%. Seven zero.

Deputy Sean Fleming

The outcome for Limerick was outstanding. What lessons does the Department draw from that? What is the toll on that tunnel? Is it set at a prohibitive level?

Mr. Dominic Mullaney

No, it is not out of line with the other projects. Indeed, it is less expensive than some of them. The Minister has asked the NRA to evaluate some options for demand management in the Limerick area.

Deputy Sean Fleming

Demand management in terms of trucks means putting obstacles on the roads, like speed bumps, to make it less attractive to use those roads.

Mr. Dominic Mullaney

Yes, that is one option, but demand management can also include the lifting of tolls

Deputy Sean Fleming

I ask the witnesses to provide a more detailed note on the Limerick example. The result is both good and very interesting. A 70% increase in the number of trucks using the tunnel would suggest that price was a major factor. The outcomes for the other areas are less dramatic.

To turn to the accounts, I ask Mr. O'Mahony to explain an entry on page 15.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

Is this in the appropriation accounts?

Deputy Sean Fleming

Yes, on page 15 there is a reference to a commitment regarding a contract entered into on 1 July 2012 for €566.9 million for helicopter services.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

Yes.

Deputy Sean Fleming

How many years does that cover? What is the annual cost and what is involved?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

The Deputy will know that it is for the search and rescue service provided by the Coast Guard Service. It is a ten-year contract. This year, according to our estimate, it is costing us €59 million.

Deputy Sean Fleming

I do not see a commensurate figure in the 2012 accounts. Is it there somewhere? Where would one find the comparative figure? The sum of €59 million is for 2014 but how does that compare with two years ago? Perhaps the witnesses can tell me where the comparative figure is or perhaps it is not in the accounts at all.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

We paid it.

Deputy Sean Fleming

Was it of that order?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

It is not broken down as an individual item in the accounts but in item C3 on page 566 of the appropriation account-----

Deputy Sean Fleming

What page? My page numbers are different.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

The figure in 2012 was €55,225.

Deputy Sean Fleming

What heading is that under?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

Maritime, transport and safety. It is C3.

Deputy Sean Fleming

Okay, I see it now. Is the Department happy with that contract?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

Yes, but I will explain why the figure is higher now. In 2012 we were in transition from the old contract. As the Deputy will be aware, we now have new equipment. We were using 1960s Sikorsky helicopters but now we have a much better fleet which can get to emergencies quicker over greater distances.

Deputy Sean Fleming

My next question is a simple one. Under the heading "Allowances for higher, special and additional duties", how did one person get €59,113 extra on top of his or her salary? What was the salary grade in question and how did the individual get more than €59,000 on top of that salary?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

Actually, the same issue arose last year and the explanation is the same. It is probably a little bit misleading to describe this payment as an allowance. At the time, an officer of the Department was working in another agency at assistant secretary level. The officer was an assistant principal but was working at assistant secretary level in another agency and was, therefore, being paid for duties at that level.

Deputy Sean Fleming

I am sure he did not rush to come back.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

The person did come back.

Deputy Sean Fleming

At the old rate?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

Yes. The assignment was over and the person came back at the old rate. That is the way the system works. The person resumed and the allowance ceased.

Deputy Sean Fleming

The final topic I wish to ask about is sports and recreation. I see that approximately €80 million was spent on this area. What is the budget for each of the years between now and the next Olympic Games in Brazil in 2016 for our athletes? I know the money is channelled through the Irish Sports Council but how much does the Department give to the council for Olympic Games preparations?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

We give the Irish Sports Council an overall sum.

Deputy Sean Fleming

Surely the council tells the Department what the money is for.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

Yes, it does.

Deputy Sean Fleming

The Department must know what it is giving the council the money for.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

Yes, but how does one define Olympics preparation? One of the major initiatives of the council is the international carding scheme for athletes under which it gives grants to individual athletes. It is also funding high-performance units and giving grants to various sports governing bodies to improve their facilities. All of these things will, in one way or another, support our Olympics effort. I will ask Mr. Morgan, who heads up the sports unit, to elaborate further.

Mr. Donagh Morgan

As Deputy Fleming knows, the Olympics is cyclical. The Irish Sports Council would certainly like to be in a situation whereby it has certainty around its funding for the four-year cycle but we can only agree funding year by year basis. At the same time, the council, through its interaction with the national governing bodies, would have a pretty good idea of what is needed, year on year.

We do our utmost to try to maintain the sports budget. Across the Department we have held this budget as best we can in comparison to other areas. We try to build up the high-performance funding through the Irish Sports Council in the lead-up to Olympic years. The greater demand is in the Olympic year itself.

Deputy Sean Fleming

I know that Mr. Morgan cannot give the figures, but obviously 2015 will be an important year in the run-up to the 2016 Olympics. Is the funding mechanism in place adequate or is there a case to be made for additional funding in the year prior to the Olympics, as that is a key year for qualification and preparation for the Olympics?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

The Irish Sports Council comes to us each year to make its demand. We anticipate that it would have a greater demand in 2015 and 2016. We do our utmost to meet the demand.

Deputy Sean Fleming

As the spokesperson on expenditure in my party, I would support an improvement in the budget. As we missed the World Cup, Ireland could do with being in Rio in two years' time.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

I remind the Deputy that when the last Olympics finished, people such as Katie Taylor made the point that they were now effectively in training for the next Olympic Games. For the high-performance athletes it is a four-year build-up, and the funding they are getting now is geared toward Rio in 2016.

Deputy Sean Fleming

I have two issues with regard to the national lottery funding. What is the level of commitments in the Department for grants to sports organisations that were allocated in the past but have yet to be drawn down? I know there were deferred surrenders, but do they know the oldest commitment that has not been drawn down yet?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

It could be up to ten years.

Deputy Sean Fleming

Will they be drawn down at this stage?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

I doubt it.

Deputy Sean Fleming

Can steps be taken to deal with them?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

We have a unit in the Department called the withdrawals unit, but because of cutbacks we have not be able to resource it. We continue to try to pick away at it. In the sports capital programme there is a sunset clause, so that we could in theory pull back any moneys that are not spent within 18 months, but there are various reasons the money does not get drawn down. Our policy is to try to help clubs and not to penalise them. We do not press them too hard. Up to a couple of years ago, we were pressing very hard to have the older grants cleared because they were not going to go ahead. People may be under the illusion that if the grants are not drawn down the money will become available to us. That is not the case. It is like an overdraft facility. If everything that we owed was called it we would have to pay it, and we would not have the funding to do that.

Deputy Sean Fleming

What is the level of commitment if everything had to be paid?

Mr. Donagh Morgan

The level of commitment for outstanding grants at the start of this year was in the region of €55 million to €59.4 million. When I started in the Department three years ago, that was almost up to €200 million. We have managed to get it back a bit.

Deputy Sean Fleming

Perhaps the Comptroller and Auditor General will be able to help me in his remarks on my next question, which relates to item D3 in the appropriation accounts, which states "Grants for sporting bodies and the provision of sports and recreational facilities (part funded by national lottery)*". I see the phrase "part funded by national lottery" all over the accounts in Departments. Out of the €21 million in funding provided by the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport under item D3, how much was from the national lottery and how much was from the Department's budget? It also states that the Irish Sports Council is part-funded by the national lottery. It is not possible to get a clear audit trail, from what I see in the Government accounts, of where the national lottery money goes. Nobody can say that a specific amount is a grant from the national lottery because there is a pot of funds that includes national lottery funding and it goes out in that way. The same applies in the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government to the social housing programme. Some of the projects are part-funded, and when I have asked specific questions on the exact amount of money the Department received and the projects to which the money was applied, the representatives were not able to answer that. The usual response is that they get an allocation and the national lottery funding is in the pot and they pay from the pot. The public assumes that if there is €200 million available for good causes, there is a list of where the money goes and not just a general allocation in part-funding.

Can something be done to bring clarity to the national lottery funding because the general clause applies across other Departments?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I fully agree with the point you make. I am not even satisfied that there is absolute consistency in the way it is reported between certain appropriation accounts. I am trying to do some work on this to try to bring greater clarity to it and link it all the way back through the accounts that national lottery funds flow through. It could be much clearer. To be fair, under Vote 31, the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, it is probably clearer than it is in many other appropriation accounts. They give the total spend in the categories and the amount of it that is attributed to national lottery funding.

Deputy Sean Fleming

When the national lottery hands over money, does it go into the Central Fund and then on to the Departments?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes. The funding is voted.

Deputy Sean Fleming

When the national lottery hands over the cheque for good causes, where does the money go?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

There is the national lottery fund account. We have discussed this when the account was presented - the estimation of the administration costs and the amounts that are assigned for good purposes. The payment goes to the Exchequer. I can prepare a note on it.

Deputy Sean Fleming

It is not good for the national lottery that it cannot be specific on where the money goes. It gets washed into Departments but we do not what happens at the far end.

Chairman

We will get a note on that.

Mr. Donagh Morgan

May I comment on Deputy Fleming's point? We cannot say how much we spend from the national lottery but we are told that because funding comes centrally to us from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, it includes lottery funding. On the sports capital side, we must ask clubs to put up a sign to say that a project is part-funded by the national lottery. I would love to have the national lottery fund.

Chairman

My question is addressed to the Road Safety Authority. What consultants were engaged to analyse the introduction and issuing of the new driver's licence and what did that cost?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

The original decision to centralise and outsource the national driver licensing service was as a result of a Government process in 2011. I understand that Accenture was engaged to issue a report based on the pros and cons of the existing service versus a centralised service.

Chairman

How much did that cost?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

We did not commission it. It was commissioned by the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport.

Chairman

How much did it cost Mr. O'Mahony?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

It was commissioned by the Road Safety Authority.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

Okay. I apologise.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

This was back in 2010 and we will get the information and forward it to the committee.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

The report looked at the delivery of the plastic card service, which became mandatory from January 2013, and what efficiencies and streamlining of the process could be achieved by centralising the service. The existing service did not have a single point of accountability. These were the key factors in the evaluation, as well as to see what enhancements could be delivered with one centralised system.

Chairman

Were the companies SGS and Abtran used?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

No. These companies are service delivery entities.

Chairman

After the consultant's report, were these companies delivering the service?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

Yes, they are delivering. After the public procurement process, which went out to full tender, SGS won the tender for delivery of the front-line centres. These are the front desks where people present with their photographs and documentation. Abtran is the back office, processing and customer care centre.

Chairman

How much did they cost?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

We have not completed a full year of operation and there are-----

Chairman

What is the projected cost?

Mr. Pearse White

For a full year of operation, depending upon the number of transaction licences that flow through, because payment is based on a transaction rate, the agent network contract will cost between €5 million and €6 million, depending on the transaction volume.

Chairman

Is that the contract for SGS?

Mr. Pearse White

Yes.

Chairman

The approximate anticipated cost is between €5 million and €6 million.

Mr. Pearse White

Yes.

Chairman

How much will the back office operation, Abtran, cost?

Mr. Pearse White

That will also depend on the transactional volume that flows through the year in 2014. It is projected that it will be in the region of €8 million per annum.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

As Mr. White, our finance manager, pointed out, the cost is very much driven by volume and demand. It also depends on the nature of the licence application, which can be for three years or ten years, or for a person aged over 70 years. The over-70s licence application does not attract an income and the charge for a shorter-term licence is lower, at €35, than the €55 charge for a ten-year licence. The figures are based on forecasted demand and will change over time, as demand is not guaranteed.

Chairman

Were any other payments made to either of the two companies in respect of compensation?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

In terms of payments made, we have ongoing change requirements within the service, driven by lessons learned from the start of the process when we found we were encountering issues due to not having an online booking system. We have initiated such a system, which is over and above the original tender requirement, and there is a fee associated with that. As time goes on-----

Chairman

What was that fee?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

It is an add-on to the charge. As it is commercially sensitive information, I would not like to disclose it here. It was, however, a small charge on top of the original tender price from the supplier. There are other enhancements. Through the change request process in the contract, we can ask for changes and enhancements. Some of these may attract an additional charge and some may be improvements and cost savings. We will also seek to have a reduction in the fee charge from either of the suppliers if we can take steps out of the process. This is, therefore, a two-way process. If we look for more, we will negotiate a change in the original contract.

Chairman

A consultant was employed to examine the card issue. Was a recommendation made to stay with local authorities or go private?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

The recommendation following the assessment was that the service should be outsourced into one single centralised system, with three clearer processes. The first is the production of the physical card, which is a small element of the process. The second is the back office service - customer care queries, calls and e-mails - which is provided by a different supplier, Abtran. The final process is the front office supplier, SGS.

Chairman

The approximate cost of the SGS contract is between €5 million and €6 million, depending on volume. There are further costs as the system is developed and the Road Safety Authority adds to the SGS contract. Is that correct?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

While there may be additional charges, we will also seek additional cost savings from the suppliers through improvements. We will also streamline the process by introducing online and telephone application processes. These methods of application will obviously reduce demand on centres, resulting in a reduction in the operating cost of the service. There are defined stages in the whole national driver licence service and we have plans in place to-----

Chairman

How well defined were the contracts with SGS and Abtran in terms of specifying the scope of work for which the companies were contracted to prevent additional costs arising? Have additional costs arisen because the contracts were poorly thought out at the beginning or because there were unknowns?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

There were unknowns in terms of actual demand in different locations. We have history in our existing national vehicle and driver file in Shannon, which would have given us a projected demand in terms of the existing licence holders and possible demographics associated with them. The specification was to have an access point for a licence application that was accessible to 95% of the population. However, in certain locations the demand on specific centres was greater than anticipated. We are working with the supplier to open up additional centres in Mallow and Dublin, where there is considerable congestion. We do not associate any additional charge with that increase in coverage, as this will be part of the contract. The compensation from the supplier will be through the income and applications coming through the relevant centres. That is part of the operating demand on the supplier. There is a fixed charge for every single application.

Chairman

What is the waiting time?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

I can confirm the position in this regard because I have recently had my own licence processed. If one has an online slot booked in a centre and one presents with all the correct documentation, the turnaround time is now between four and five days. The actual turnaround time, as a commitment in the service level agreement, is eight days and we are certainly delivering on that. So far, since 29 October, we have probably delivered approximately 300,000 plastic card licences through the centres. On a weekly basis, we are seeing 10,500 applications coming through. The backlog is now 3.6% and we call this work in progress.

We have individual cases where some documentation may be missing or some additional medical report is required. There are a small number of discrepancies in the system and we are doing our best to address them. We will liaise directly with individuals if they have an urgent need. For instance, if someone is going on holidays or needs something for employment, we can access the system as we have traceability throughout the system.

It is worth pointing out that we hope to shortly introduce an online tracking system for the customer in the front end. This will be something of an enhancement which we had not envisaged at the time of the contract. There are improvements taking place and we are planning ahead to improve the system. I accept that we are not yet where we want to be. We would like the system to become a leading light in terms of licence production compared to our European counterparts.

Chairman

When I requested the file on penalty points I am not sure whether I indicated that it should include all correspondence with the Department of Justice and Equality. I ask for this to be provided at the earliest convenient time.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

Yes.

Chairman

While my question for Mr. O'Mahony and his officials may not be appropriate to the Department, I need to ask it. It is similar to the question asked by Deputy Sean Fleming. On the roads contract for the R158, which cost €43 million and was under construction from 2004 until 2008, it has been alleged that a considerable amount of waste from the project - 56,000 tonnes - was dumped illegally on private lands. The matter either has been before the courts or is at some stage in the legal process. Who assumes responsibility for this matter? In other words, who follows the contract in terms of remediating the land or fixing the problem? Is it the Department, the National Roads Authority or the contract? Who polices the issue? Mr. O'Mahony informed Deputy Fleming that the NRA employs a separate company to deal with issues relating to social welfare and so forth. I am trying to establish who is responsible when an issue arises regarding how a subcontractor may have behaved in this type of contract.

Who looks after this type of contract where there is an issue about how the subcontractor may have behaved?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

I will ask Mr. Mullaney to say whether this could be involved in any of the audits. What the Chairman describes is criminal behaviour under the waste management Acts, which would be enforced by the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA. Where there is illegal dumping of construction or any type of waste, the EPA would prosecute the perpetrator. Is that covered in the audits?

Mr. Dominic Mullaney

No. It would not be. The audits simply check whether people's pension contributions and PRSI are being paid and that people are on the system.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

This is the EPA's territory under waste management legislation.

Chairman

Is it not the territory of the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport? The Department issues the contract, which would provide for certain standards, guidelines and regulations. Is it not the Department's business to find out if this is the case or should the local council find out? Is there not an obligation on the Department, which initiates, oversees and pays for the contract, to ensure that the contract or subcontractor is doing the job within the law? Where it has been brought to the Department's attention, would it not investigate?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

What the Chairman describes being brought to our attention is criminal activity. Illegal dumping of waste is a criminal activity which then becomes a matter for the enforcers under the EPA and the Garda. This is the first time I have heard about this issue in respect of the R158. I would like to talk to the National Roads Authority, NRA, about it and prepare a note on it for the committee.

Chairman

The site in question is at Laracor in County Meath. Can Mr O'Mahony get information on it?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

Is that illegal dumping?

Chairman

Yes. It relates to the construction work on the R158. For the work of this committee in respect of the spend on that contract, I want clarified who would have overseen this and who would now be responsible for putting it right. Surely the Department or someone within the NRA or the council must know about this.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

We will get whatever information we can. If the clerk can give me any details, in addition to what the Chairman has told me, that will help us I will use that and will give the Chairman whatever information I get.

Chairman

The other issue relates to CIE. In 2012 it received €544 million. How does the Department account for that, does it get a report on the expenditure? Is there a specific report relative to taxpayers' money? How is that company performing? Is the Department happy with its governance, procurement and so on? Will it require more money?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

The money which the Chairman mentioned is the total it receives from the State from various sources. I am responsible for the money it gets from the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, and for its overall corporate governance. It is a commercial semi-State organisation which means that it must operate to a commercial mandate. Board members have fiduciary responsibility as directors and are responsible to the Minister for their performance and for adherence to the code of practice.

As discussed in some detail when I came before the committee last year, in 2012 CIE ran into serious difficulty. I said in my opening statement we had to re-allocate money within our Vote to ensure that it could continue. It has resolved that difficulty through a range of cost-saving measures, changes in processes and procedures. The source of the problem in 2012 was that it had reached the limit of its overdraft and run out of money. It has now negotiated new funding provisions and covenants with its bankers which have dealt with that problem but it needs to maintain the cost-efficiency measures it has put in place. Those have involved difficult industrial relations, IR, negotiations. There were short strikes in both bus companies last year. The IR is at quite a delicate point in Irish Rail. A Labour Court finding was rejected by some of the staff and the company is now in discussion with the unions concerned with a view to tweaking it enough to get it over the line. It is reasonably optimistic of being able to do that.

Until it ran into this difficulty in 2012 we dealt with it on the same basis that we deal with other commercial semi-State organisations in that the directors have prime responsibility but there is a regular flow of information about accounts and corporate governance and there are regular meetings between the Minister and the Department and the company.

Chairman

Did Mr O'Mahony say the Department oversees its corporate governance?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

The Department has responsibility for the corporate governance of the group as a whole. I am not accountable for anything to do with the detail, for example, the free travel scheme because it is paid for by the Department of Social Protection, or for school transport.

Chairman

From a corporate governance point of view, when it was looking for €36 million because it was out of cash, did that not raise concerns for the Department as to why it hit that point? Was the Department alerted prior to that, 12 months before, that this was coming?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

No, and that was one of the major points to come out of this event. The information flows within the company to the board and the Department were inadequate. It was essentially a cash management problem. At particular points in the month it would not be able to meet its commitments to the Revenue Commissioners, within the overdraft limit it had and this was going to recur. This should have been identified.

Chairman

Was that not a shocking position to reach, without the Department knowing about it?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

Yes, it was a shocking position. The chairman was quite new to CIE and when he came to the Department about this he was shocked, as were the Minister and the Department officials. On foot of that Deloitte was sent into the companies to examine their cash management arrangements, their treasury function and to come up with recommendations, all of which were implemented.

Chairman

Who asked for that? Was it the Department?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

The Department asked for that, with the full agreement of the chairman who appreciated that this was necessary.

Chairman

On foot of that analysis, what measures did the Department put in place to protect and account for the spend of taxpayers’ money on an ongoing basis, regardless of where that money comes from within Government? There are several Departments involved - for example, the Departments of Education and Skills and Social Protection. What mechanism or reporting procedure is in place within CIE, directly to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport that enables Mr. O'Mahony to say confidently, if he can, that in the taxpayers’ interest he is absolutely happy with how that money is spent?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

This was never an issue about being unhappy with how the money was spent. Each of the contracts it has, such as the public service obligation contracts, which we fund through the National Transport Authority, and school transport, which the committee has discussed in detail with my colleague, is governed by performance measures.

These are scrutinised in detail. It was an issue about how the money was being spent. The issue was that the solvency of the company was suddenly threatened because of losses incurred and not having the cash management facilities and the overdraft facilities in place. To deal with that situation, the Department and NewERA, with the agreement of the Government, set up a group which met initially on a monthly basis. It meets less frequently now because it does not need to meet monthly. New people were appointed in the CIE group to deal with the financial function which was greatly upgraded on foot of the Deloitte recommendations. Every month the Department, with representatives of NewERA, met to go through the latest financial figures from CIE, to see how CIE was getting on in the negotiations with its lenders, to look at the likely cash position, and to look at what assistance it would require. Over a period that resolved the problem and put CIE in a position to satisfy the bankers, which it previously could not do, that it could be a safe bet to have an increase in its overdraft facility because that overdraft facility had been limited at €107 million-----

Chairman

I have to ask on behalf of the taxpayer whether they were a safe bet to get €36 million. Out of the Department's engagement with them at that time, was there any arrangement made for the Comptroller and Auditor General to examine how the taxpayers' money is being spent within that company?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

No. The Comptroller and Auditor was not asked to become involved.

Chairman

I am not saying if the Department asked him----

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

There was no-----

Chairman

Did the Department see a role for the Comptroller and Auditor General in chasing €544 million?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

No, because the CIE accounts are audited and the accounts of each of the Departments that provides money to CIE are audited. I have read the transcript of the committee's discussion on the school transport scheme and I understand that there will be an arrangement for the Comptroller and Auditor General to be involved in examining the school transport scheme.

Chairman

There is an arrangement.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

There is an arrangement. As I said, this particular issue with regard to CIE was not about any potential misuse of taxpayers' money.

Chairman

I understand that. I just wondered whether the Department took advantage of the fact that it was now engaging directly with the company on this issue to bring about a sure and certain way of accounting for the taxpayers' money separately or by way of oversight generally so that there is a clear line of management and oversight of all that money.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

The problem we had to deal with here was addressed by a decision of the Government, by setting up this monitoring mechanism involving not the Comptroller and Auditor General but NewERA and its financial expertise, along with the Department. This issue was an issue of-----

Chairman

It was dealt with by way of policy then.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

Yes.

Chairman

From an accounting point of view, does Mr. O'Mahony, as an Accounting Officer, get a report from CIE in any way, shape or form on a monthly or yearly basis, relative to the taxpayers' money or the schemes or even the spend of the €36 million? Where did that go?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

Yes. To explain exactly how this is done, the €36 million was paid as part of the public service obligation, the public subvention which is paid through the NTA. Apart from capital payments, which I can talk about separately if required, the current payments to CIE by my Department are routed entirely through the National Transport Authority on foot of the public service contracts drawn up in 2009. Those contracts are very detailed. They have a host of performance indicators which the company must meet and if it does not meet them, it will be penalised. The NTA supervises those contracts and oversees the performance of CIE in giving value for money to the taxpayer on foot of those contracts.

Chairman

How far advanced is the oversight on the new arrangements for school transport?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

I am not involved in that because it is an issue between the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Department of Education and Skills.

Chairman

I have a final question about funding of a particular scheme in my own constituency which has had national attention, the central access scheme concerning the construction of a bridge. Does the funding come through the Department or the NRA via the Department or solely through the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government?

Mr. Dominic Mullaney

I am not familiar with it. It depends whether it is on a national road or a regional or local road.

Chairman

It is on an urban road-----

Mr. Dominic Mullaney

Is this central Kilkenny city? We funded it at the early design stage but that was the extent of our funding. We would not be in a position to fund it any further because of our scaling back on strategic schemes.

Chairman

Where would the funding for that project come from in that case?

Mr. Dominic Mullaney

If they are proceeding it must be local funding from the council.

Chairman

The Department does not have an input.

Mr. Dominic Mullaney

No.

Deputy John Deasy

I was going to ask about the company car issue but I understand it has been dealt with.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

Yes, that was raised by Deputy Nolan.

Deputy John Deasy

I have an issue which is not directly related to the discussion but it is pertinent to the Department. A couple of years ago legislation was passed to reduce blood alcohol limits for drivers from 80 mg to 50 mg. Has any analysis been carried out on the effectiveness of that measure? Has anyone in the Department looked at causation or levels of effectiveness in the reduction of blood alcohol limits from 80 mg to 50 mg?

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

The RSA carries out the research but it might be a bit soon.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

Is the Deputy is referring to the effectiveness of the ability to drive with a lower alcohol level?

Deputy John Deasy

No, I am talking about prevention of death.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

I will need to revert to the Deputy with more specific analysis. Over the past 12 months, mobile checkpoints and detections for breath tests have shown a significant reduction in the level of detections with the new levels in operation. Lowering the levels has raised awareness and there are fewer people taking chances. The figures over the past 12 months have demonstrated a 3% reduction in the number of detections, even though the number of mobile checkpoints has increased.

Deputy John Deasy

The number of checkpoints has increased.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

Yes, by 9%.

Deputy John Deasy

There has been a 3% reduction. It is not possible to say because the RSA has not done an analysis.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

There has not been any major analysis but I can give the Deputy some of the top line figures for the number of detections and the number of checkpoints-----

Deputy John Deasy

No, that is okay.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

There has been an increase of 9% in mobile checkpoints over the 12 months and a reduction of detections on alcohol issues by 3%, so a combination of the two would indicate that there has been a reduction in risk-taking. However, there are still too many getting caught, having taken the chance.

Deputy John Deasy

What kind of analysis is carried out by the RSA as a matter of course to determine whether legislation is effective or ineffective? Surely this is pretty landmark legislation when it comes to road safety. An appreciable period of time has passed since the enactment of that legislation. Is there a set period for the RSA and the Garda Síochána to determine its effectiveness?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

Over recent months we have been working with the Garda Síochána and interfacing with the PULSE system to collect the statistics. There was much work done and significant investment by the RSA to get that information in order that our own research section can now utilise it. The system is now working. We receive excellent information on a daily basis. It will take some time to build up some statistical analysis but we are happy to come back with information on the effectiveness of the legislation. A raft of new legislation is being rolled out in the coming months and points are being increased from two to three over a number of offences.

Deputy John Deasy

In short, Ms Murdock is saying there has been no analysis as such.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

The analysis we have done in the past would be more of a manual analysis. We did not have the capability until more recently to do the type of database interrogation about which the Deputy is talking. There certainly was analysis done in the past, but we will have a much more interrogative analysis in future that will allow us to produce information on a more scientific basis.

Deputy John Deasy

When will that analysis be available?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

We are using the information as we go along. It is a question of setting the parameters of the investigation and deciding what information we want to find out. That process is under way and we have the capacity to come back with specific results on specific queries and set out an analysis of them. The Garda Síochána issues monthly statistics on fatalities, collisions, checkpoints, and the number of detections of speeding, driving while intoxicated and other offences under the road traffic legislation. There is a whole raft of queries on which we will be able to work with the Garda.

Deputy John Deasy

I have a related question in regard to driving under the influence of drugs. Given that the number of checkpoints is up by 8% or 9%, has there been a corresponding increase in the rate of detection of drug-driving?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

I do not have that information to hand. Our research and education section is working very closely with the Garda on this issue.

Deputy John Deasy

Does Ms Murdock have any idea of the numbers? This issue has been knocking around for some years now.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

It is a work in progress. I will come back to the Deputy with information.

Deputy John Deasy

Does Ms Murdock not have any sense as to the effectiveness of the current regime?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

I do not have that information to hand. We are working with the Garda on the effectiveness of detection and, in particular, the challenges in terms of on-the-spot detection. There is a working group engaging with the Garda on that issue. I will get back to the Deputy with more details.

Deputy John Deasy

I am not sure whether the Comptroller and Auditor General's office has done any work on this. I would like some type of analysis to be done with regard to blood alcohol levels, drug driving, increased checkpoints and the effectiveness of measures that are taken legislatively and by the Garda. It is important that such an analysis be done.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

Absolutely.

Deputy John Deasy

We are all striving to improve road safety, but if we do not know what is effective, we are shooting in the dark. The weakness in the system for years has been that some of the measures that were taken were introduced by legislators who were not tuned in to what really needs to happen. The only way of finding out what is required is by doing the type of indepth analysis to which I referred. I am surprised it has not been done given the time that has passed since the enactment of the legislation. The issue of drug driving has been spoken about endlessly.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

The technological advances we have implemented, with the PULSE system now interfacing with our own systems, will facilitate what the Deputy is talking about. I agree 100% that we should be able to produce that type of information, not just in regard to drink driving but also drug driving. I am optimistic that we will be able to get information for the Deputy in the near future. That project has just come to fruition. It involved a significant amount of development work and an investment of more than €400,000 in developing the IT interface.

Deputy John Deasy

I thank Ms Murdock. My next question is a constituency issue to do with regional airports. The Department has been very helpful in recent years in regard to the provision of funding for one part of the runway at Waterford Airport. That project has to do with health and safety issues. I understand planning permission is being sought and the Department has given assistance in that regard. There are difficulties with the airline industry across the Continent. The people managing the airport in Waterford are working in a very competitive environment and are trying very hard to find a commercial customer to deliver a London-Waterford route. We hope they will have some success in that regard in the near future.

When it comes to capital budgets within the Department as they pertain to regional airports, are we looking at the same allocation for next year or is an increase likely? In the case of Waterford, there may need to be another cash influx to deal with the other end of the runway and related matters.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

Budgetary decisions remain to be determined. The whole issue of regional airports post-2014 is something to which the Minister is now turning his attention. All Departments have completed their comprehensive review of expenditure, that information has been fed to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and there will now be political discussion about it. One of the issues to be addressed within that discussion is the future of our regional airport programme, whether it is possible to provide any more funding or if it will have to be reduced. Those decisions will be taken in the context of whatever the Government decides it is able to do.

Deputy John Deasy

I do not get an opportunity to interface with Mr. O'Mahony very often, so I am anxious to make my case to him. The region that is home to the Chairman and me is in a protracted recession. Members have been talking about Dublin, which is fair enough; we all have our own constituency interests. It is important to note, however, that the region I am from has an entirely different economic environment from that of Dublin. This needs to be taken into consideration by the Department not just on the basis of numbers but also in the context of the economic reality facing people in different parts of the country. The key piece of infrastructure we need to see revitalised is the airport. When the Department puts its budgets together in the coming months and decisions are made as to where capital spending should go, that must be taken into consideration.

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

The Deputy argues his case very strongly. At the end of the day, this will be a policy decision. However, we understand and appreciate the case for Waterford Airport.

Deputy John Deasy

The way in which the Department has dealt with management at the airport in the past three to four years has been very fair. Everybody, including the previous manager, who is now working in the Department-----

Mr. Tom O'Mahony

I thought the Deputy was going to give out to me about that.

Deputy John Deasy

I might have to give out to Mr. O'Mahony for hiring him because he was so good at his job. I accept that this is a policy issue, but the senior Department officials who deal with it cannot remove themselves from the reality of what is occurring around the country. I will continue to make the case for Waterford Airport, as I have done in this forum countless times. The airport must be funded and it cannot be allowed to shut. The officials dealing with this, including Mr. O'Mahony, must take that into consideration when it comes to capital spending allocations into the future.

My final question relates to the report on the Central Remedial Clinic that has just been published. Does the Chairman intend to dispense with this element of the meeting before discussing the CRC issue?

Chairman

Yes.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I apologise for being in and out of the meeting.

Deputy John Deasy

I am sorry for interrupting Deputy McDonald but perhaps she will accommodate me. I have to leave the meeting now and what I wish to say will take only one minute.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Only one minute?

Deputy John Deasy

It will take 30 seconds.

Chairman

We did not have a chance before the meeting to look at the CRC report. Copies have been printed for us.

Deputy John Deasy

I am reading parts of the report. One of the points I and others have made in the past is that the HSE has never policed this area properly. We should consider issuing a formal invitation to representatives from the HSE to come before us in order that we might ask them about the findings contained in the report. It is very important that we should do that.

Chairman

We will do that.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Ms Murdock will probably relieved to hear that my question does not relate to the CRC. I wish to raise the matter of penalty points and I apologise if this ground has already been covered. Starting with the whistleblowers who came forward, I understand that one of the agencies they approached was the RSA. I apologise if Ms Murdock has already dealt with this matter but will she indicate what happened after the authority was approached?

Chairman

We dealt with that matter in detail earlier. If the Deputy is interested in a specific issue, then she may pursue it. We requested the file of correspondence between the various Departments and the RSA.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Excellent.

Chairman

If the Deputy wants to pursue the matter further, that is fine.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

That is great. My second question is more general in nature and I have no doubt Ms Murdock has already referred to the matter to which it relates. From what she said, I take it that the authority has a good working relationship with An Garda Síochána and that it can access data and information from the PULSE system, as necessary.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

Yes. As I explained to Deputy Deasy, we now have full access to the PULSE system and we can fully interrogate the information we receive, create our own analysis of it and engage in investigations as a result. In general terms, I regularly meet representatives from An Garda Síochána at headquarters in the Phoenix Park. Once a month I go through with them issues, such as enforcement trends, collaboration and joint efforts in terms of enforcement, which affect road safety. I refer here not just to enforcement in respect of private car users but also to commercial vehicle road worthiness enforcement. We have increased the number of checkpoints and detections by 50% year on year in co-operation with the Garda. We do that as a blitz operation with a number of State bodies such as the Department of Social Protection, Revenue and the Garda. It is very visible and we select risk areas and risk times in order to try to maximise the potential. In general I have a very good working relationship with the Garda and I hope to build on it with the interim Commissioner, whom I have met.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

When Ms Murdock states that the RSA has full access to PULSE, is that as it pertains to road traffic issues?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

Absolutely. Just information relating to actual traffic offences, penalty points and detections.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I presume that the identification of risk areas is done jointly with An Garda Síochána.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

Based on information we gather. Our own research we would also feed back to the Garda and inform it of findings and trends. Mobile detection locations throughout the country are based on substantiable information relating to injuries and collisions. They are located in collaboration with An Garda Síochána, essentially on the basis of risk.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Does Ms Murdock have confidence in the GoSafe system?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

Yes, absolutely. GoSafe has been very effective in carrying out its objective, which is to reduce speed and the number of collisions and raise awareness of speeding. It is a double-edged sword. When there is an awareness that a particular location is a speed risk zone, people adjust their behaviour. This is exactly what the zones are in place to encourage, namely, to ensure people drive safely. That is very effective.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Does Ms Murdock have any reservations with regard to the standard of the equipment available?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

That is a matter for those responsible for managing and calibrating the equipment. I am certainly aware of it as a consideration in the management of the system. I am satisfied that the Garda is managing it as custodian of-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Is Ms Murdock aware that concerns have arisen in some instances with regard to the standard of the equipment - in the context of alignment, for example - and a number of the charges that have arisen?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

I am aware from media reports that issues have been raised. The RSA is often lobbied by people who have been detected and we pass the details on to the Garda. I am satisfied that robust maintenance and calibration systems are in place.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Ms Murdock will be aware that the concerns in question did not necessarily arise on foot of people lobbying directly but rather from people who work for GoSafe and operate the system.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

I am aware of that.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Is Ms Murdock concerned that those issues have arisen?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

I am concerned that issues such as that arise. However, I must put my hand up and state that we also had people who blew the whistle in respect of our own service delivery system. We take steps to deal with that and to address issues relating to governance and management of the system. I trust the Garda to do the same with its own equipment. As is the case with any organisation, it is necessary to monitor and manage.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Is it not the case that a review is under way in respect of the GoSafe system?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

I am not aware of one. I would not be able to answer that question.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

So Ms Murdock does not have any involvement with the review.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

I do not have any involvement with the review of the actual governance.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

What is the RSA's involvement with the data generated by the GoSafe system?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

We use the data as part of our research remit and our education and promotions programmes. If we find that an effect has been produced in terms, for example, of a reduction in the number of collisions, we would work with the Garda to recommend moving the equipment to another location. So as opposed to a location at which there have been fatalities, we might perhaps recommend monitoring a location at which serious collisions have taken place. There is a priority list in terms of the most effective use of those vans.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I am sure the data is useful, not only in the context of monitoring the number of collisions and fatalities but also in terms of detecting excessive speed and other infringements of the road safety code.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

Absolutely. Excessive speed is the single biggest contributor to over one third of road traffic accidents.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

So it is very valuable data-----

Ms Moyagh Murdock

It is.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

-----and the RSA relies on it for research and analysis purposes.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

Absolutely. We take information from the GoSafe vans. We also liaise with different parties, such as the Medical Bureau of Road Safety, in order to identify where we might instigate an initiative or a programme that will be effective in reducing the-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Did An Garda Síochána officially inform the RSA of concerns relating to the GoSafe system? Ms Murdock referred to her knowledge of this issue from media reports.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

Yes. I will be honest and state that I do not have that information to hand. I do not know when it was made known to us. We can look at correspondence. It may have been prior to my taking up my role four months ago. Looking back, that was probably an issue a few months before I joined the RSA. I cannot answer that question but we will check our correspondence.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I appreciate that Ms Murdock has only been in the job for a few months. Is it the case that, in that time, she has not had a conversation with anyone from An Garda Síochána in respect of this review?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

I have raised the perception that exists in respect of the issues and the challenges. If I receive a letter from an individual, I will refer to it at our regular reviews. I have been informed and advised by the Garda that it has a very robust maintenance system in place. I am assuming it is in place now. I take that as-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I repeat that I am not referring to individuals who may lobby any agency. We are talking here about a scenario where people from within GoSafe raised very serious concerns and queries as to the standard of the equipment and its "use-worthiness". It seems people were brought before the courts for driving with excessive speed in circumstances where they had not, in fact, been doing so. It might be that this was a limited phenomenon and the system is under review. However, in view of the fact that the RSA relies on the relevant data for its work, I would have thought it would be paying quite close attention to the review.

I would have expected there to be regular contact between the Garda and the Road Safety Authority, RSA, as to the progress of that review. If the RSA is receiving data that are in any way erroneous, it has serious implications for the authority's work.

Ms Moyagh Murdock

It would be a serious concern. I will raise the issue with the Garda to determine how the report stands and what findings have been made. I would be interested to know, but I have not yet raised the matter with the Garda formally.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

When does Ms Murdock propose to raise it?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

At the next interface. I have a monthly review with the Garda before-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

When will that be?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

Next Tuesday.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Ms Murdock proposes to raise it then?

Ms Moyagh Murdock

Subject to the Garda's availability. We have a regular interface on the last Tuesday of every month. I can confirm the matter with the Deputy following that meeting.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I thank Ms Murdock.

Chairman

Does the committee agree to dispose of Vote 31 and Chapter 14 of the 2012 report of the Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General? Agreed. We will break for 15 minutes before our session with Mr. O'Brien.

Sitting suspended at 2 p.m. and resumed at 2.40 p.m.

The witnesses withdrew.