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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 4 Dec 2014

Investigations by Revenue into Authorised Officers Report

Ms Josephine Feehily (Chairman, Revenue Commissioners) called and examined.

We will concentrate in this investigation solely on the issue of the Ansbacher investigation. Before we begin, I remind members, visitors and those in the Visitors Gallery to turn off their mobile phones or remove them from the desk in front of them as they interfere with the sound quality and transmission of the meeting.

I advise witnesses that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against a Minister of either House, a person or persons outside the House nor an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Members are reminded of the provision within Standing Order 163 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policy or policies.

I welcome Ms Josephine Feehily, chairman of the Revenue Commissioners, and ask her to introduce her officials.

Ms Josephine Feehily

On my right is Ms Breda Ruddle, assistant secretary in our investigations and prosecutions division. On my left is Mr. Paddy O'Shaughnessy, principal officer responsible for liaising with the Committee of Public Accounts and the Comptroller and Auditor General. On his left is Mr. Paul Dempsey, accountant general of Revenue.

Mr. Dermot Quigley

I am from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to introduce the 2013 account.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The audited account of the receipt of revenue of the State in 2013 was presented to Dáil Éireann in April 2014. I issued a clear audit opinion on the account. In addition, arising from our testing of Revenue systems for the assessment, collection and allocation of revenues, I have presented reports on the implementation of local property tax and on the taxation of rental income in the report on the 2013 accounts of the public services. Those reports are currently scheduled for consideration by the committee in April 2015. Accordingly, I will defer my outline of the findings of those reports until the later meeting.

The focus of this morning’s meeting is the special investigation undertaken by Revenue in relation to what are called the "Ansbacher accounts". There is no specific report in relation to that from my office, so I have looked back on previous reports on that matter to provide a background to the committee's proceedings. The existence of such accounts first came to public notice in early 1997 during the proceedings of the McCracken tribunal. The accounts involved a complex system whereby individuals in Ireland could have bank accounts offshore, held nominally by Ansbacher Cayman Limited, with no official bank record in Ireland of deposits in the accounts, and yet with ready access to their funds in the State.

The McCracken tribunal report was published in August 1997. In January 1998, the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment appointed an official from her Department to examine the books and documents of Ansbacher Cayman Limited, under provisions of the Companies Acts. Following the completion of the examiner’s report, and a petition from the Minister, the High Court appointed inspectors to inquire further into the affairs of Ansbacher Cayman Limited in September 1999. In parallel with the High Court inspectors’ work, Revenue set up its own special project team in September 1999 to examine the tax affairs of 120 individuals who were identified in the examiner’s report. Including those cases, and others discovered by Revenue in the course of its inquiries and-or by the High Court inspectors, Revenue identified a total of 289 cases for investigation. The Accounting Officer will be able to inform the committee about the investigation process applied in those cases and the resourcing of those investigations.

By the end of 2013, Revenue had collected a total of almost €113 million from settlements in Ansbacher cases, consisting of tax, interest for late payment and penalties imposed. Figure 1 outlines the timing of receipts by Revenue arising from its investigations of Ansbacher cases. This indicates that the peak in receipts was in 2007, when a total of €35 million was received. Since then, a small number of cases have been settled each year, and yields have been commensurately lower. In 2013, around €80,000 was received in payment of Ansbacher settlements. Only a handful of the 289 cases identified remain to be finalised. The committee may wish to note that late payment interest and penalties amounted to €63 million, or almost 56% of the Ansbacher receipts. This is consistent with the use of Ansbacher accounts over many years to evade tax. In comparison, we estimated in a report on tax audit settlements presented last year that interest and penalties applied more generally in tax audits account for just over 20% of the yield. It is important also to note that in a significant number of the Ansbacher-related cases investigated, Revenue found that there was, in fact, no tax liability or that any tax due had been duly paid.

To put the Ansbacher investigation into a broader context, Revenue has carried out ten special investigations since the late 1990s. My predecessors reported each year on Revenue’s progress on those investigations over the period 1999 to 2010, by which time the special investigations were all substantially complete. By the end of 2013, Revenue had collected just over €2.7 billion from those investigations. It may be worth noting that, over the same period, Revenue’s routine tax audits and investigations yielded a total of around €2.6 billion.

Figure 2 shows the total financial yield from each of the special investigations. While the number of Ansbacher cases involving settlements was small, the average settlement in yielding cases was relatively high - an average of €790,000 per case. This compares to averages of around €1.5 million in 28 tribunal-related cases, €190,000 in NIB offshore investment cases and €120,000 in trusts and offshore structure cases. Unlike the Ansbacher cases, some of the investigation initiatives involved voluntary disclosure provisions, which provided incentives in appropriate circumstances for tax evaders to settle with Revenue. Where such incentives existed, the average settlements were lower.

Finally, because of the operation of Ansbacher accounts over a period stretching back at least to the 1970s, it is worth noting that many of the account holders would have had an opportunity to avail of tax amnesties in 1988 and 1993. By declaring the existence of such offshore funds, account holders had the incentive in the 1993 amnesty to pay just 15% of the tax due, with no payment of interest or penalties. A small number of the Ansbacher account holders were not required to make settlements following the special investigation, on the basis that they had made declarations under that amnesty.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for the invitation to attend today’s meeting. I understand the committee’s focus for today is on the action taken by Revenue in relation to the information received from the authorised officer’s Ansbacher reports. I welcome the opportunity to assist the committee in this regard and I will endeavour to be as open and transparent as possible. At the same time, the confidentiality of taxpayer information is a central element in the tax system and under section 851A of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997, it is a criminal offence for any past or serving Revenue officer to disclose taxpayer information. I appreciate the committee has always understood this any time I have appeared before it previously. This obligation is not affected by the fact that elements of the information enter the public domain and the information retains its character as “taxpayer information” and therefore retains the protection of section 851A. I am also, inevitably, somewhat constrained by the passage of time and because many of the senior Revenue officers who dealt with the authorised officer’s reports have retired.

As reported to the committee in the past, over 15 years ago the Revenue Commissioners commenced an investigation into the operation of the Ansbacher accounts and the tax affairs of the Irish resident account holders following the publication of the McCracken report. A copy of the report of the authorised officer completed in June 1999 was received shortly afterwards from the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. This report contained information about the alleged involvement of 120 named individuals with Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited. On receipt of the report, a special project team led by a very experienced senior official was set up to investigate the tax affairs of the named individuals, associated persons and trusts. This team consisted of around 20 experienced Revenue staff. The authorised officer’s report was a very important contribution to these investigations. The team examined all the information which came to Revenue from the authorised officer and his Ministers whether there was evidence of an Ansbacher deposit or not. From the outset it was recognised that the investigations would be complex and time-consuming.

In parallel with the authorised officer’s report, in September 1999 Revenue also obtained High Court orders against two financial institutions and two other entities. These orders required the parties to supply information, particulars and documentation in relation to the Ansbacher deposits. Some 200,000 documents were received on foot of these orders alone over a four-year period.

As the investigations and examinations continued, the extensive use of legislative powers was necessary, requiring the production by financial institutions and other third parties of books, records, and documentation that were relevant to establishing the liabilities or otherwise of account holders and other named individuals. Following receipt, in July 2002, of the High Court inspectors’ report into the affairs of Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited, an application was made to the High Court for access to the supporting papers to the report. This application was held in open court over three days and the information, when Revenue received it, proved particularly important in progressing investigations into individual cases. Another helpful order enabled the authorised officer to allow Revenue to inspect and copy microfilm records which he held. Since the start of the investigation 26 High Court orders were obtained against financial institutions and third parties relevant to the liabilities of the Ansbacher account holders, the most recent in 2013. Revenue received over 300,000 documents in the course of this investigation. Advanced investigative computer software was used in collating, interrogating and managing the vast volume of financial documentation concerned.

Turning to the Companies Act 1990, over the period from September 1999 to February 2011, Revenue received extensive reports, information, books and documents from the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation - under the various titles that ministerial portfolio held over those years - relating to Ansbacher accounts. All of this information has been examined and followed up and is included in the cases which were investigated by the Ansbacher project team on which Revenue has previously written to the Public Accounts Committee. My officials also advise me that over this period many helpful meetings were held with the authorised officer.

Altogether, the investigations and examinations identified some 289 cases. The number of connected entities consisting of trusts, associated companies, offshore entities, etc., related to the 289 substantive cases was nearly 700. As of now, 283 cases have been finalised. Of the remaining six, five have made a payment on account and four are under appeal. 138 of the finalised cases yielded €113 million in tax, interest and penalties. 58 significant settlements have been published in the quarterly tax defaulters list and are on the public record, most with the designation “Ansbacher”.

From the outset, there were a small number of cases already under investigation as a result of other Revenue projects, for example tribunal-related investigations. These are recorded separately and those particular cases yielded over €6 million.

In addition to the 289 cases, as a result of increased knowledge of the use of offshore structures and trusts used in the transmission of funds, Revenue set up a number of other projects including a very successful offshore assets project team. For example, one Ansbacher-related High Court order resulted in additional yield of €25 million in a spin-off investigation. A second such investigation in relation to trusts and offshore structures has resulted in an addition €65 million to date. This investigation is ongoing and the final yield is likely to exceed €115 million. The combined yield, therefore, from the Ansbacher investigations and two spin-offs will likely exceed €250 million. The knowledge gained has also allowed Revenue to break new legal ground and support the case for changes to Revenue's investigative powers.

It is important from a fairness perspective to put on record that although a person may be named in an Ansbacher report, that in itself is not proof that an Ansbacher account was held by that person, nor is it proof of tax evasion. This was underlined by the High Court inspectors in their report published in June 2002 and I quote:

CAVEAT: It is important to bear in mind that a finding that any particular individual is a client of Ansbacher, is NOT a finding that the person evaded tax. As will be seen further on, persons who have been identified as clients did not necessarily have deposits with Ansbacher. Some such persons simply borrowed money from Ansbacher in the ordinary course of business, a transaction giving rise to no tax liability whatsoever. Others again established Trusts to which they never transferred any assets.

In this context, around half of the cases under investigation - 145 cases - were finalised and did not result in any yield from this project. Of these, 69 cases were established to be foreign non-resident cases with no liability to Irish tax. 20 cases were covered by the Waiver of Certain Tax, Interest and Penalties Act 1993. The balance of cases included individuals who were bank clients but not deposit holders and cases that had correctly declared the deposits in their annual tax returns of income.

As the Comptroller and Auditor General has just said, his office has regularly reported in his Annual Report on the progress of the Ansbacher project and presented these updates to the PAC in the normal way, and they were examined. Progress was also reported each year in Revenue’s annual reports from 1999 to 2007.

Turning to the question of prosecutions, Revenue actively considered prosecution under the Taxes Acts in a number of cases.

However, an essential element for a successful criminal prosecution is the availability of relevant original documents and that element was largely missing. There were very few original documents available and there was no legal mechanism to compel Cayman entities to produce documents or their employees to give evidence. The time elapsed was also a very significant factor. The Ansbacher accounts ran from 1971 until the mid-1990s. The time elapsed was typically in excess of ten years. Section 1078(7) of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 provides that proceedings have to be instituted within ten years from the date of the commission of the offence. In consultation, however, and in co-ordination with other relevant agencies which were considering their prosecution options, Revenue officials provided witness statements to An Garda Síochána at their request.

In conclusion, I am satisfied that Revenue made full and appropriate use of all the information received from the authorised officer’s reports, the High Court inspectors’ report and its underlying documents. I want to assure the committee in particular that all the authorised officer’s material referred to Revenue by the Ministers for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation was fully examined and followed up, wherever it took us.

Revenue allocated and maintained a significant experienced investigative resource in a dedicated project team. We made extensive use of legislative powers to seek books and records, and where these powers did not achieve success we went to the High Court to progress the investigation and overcome blockages. We obtained, as I have said, a significant number of orders.

Revenue staff have shown resilience and persistence in bringing all the cases identified to conclusion, with a significant yield of €49 million in tax and a further €64 million in interest and penalties. The lessons learnt from this investigation have been important in the success of other related projects, in developing new law and supporting enhanced investigative powers.

As the Comptroller and Auditor General has pointed out, our inquiries into Ansbacher were part of a series of special investigations into serious tax evasion involving various forms of bogus non-resident accounts and offshore accounts which have yielded in total €2.7 billion in tax, interest and penalties to date. These investigations were comprehensively followed through and they provided a model for similar investigations in other revenue jurisdictions.

May we publish your statement?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes.

I thank Ms Feehily for attending today at relatively short notice to address the issues that have come into the public domain in recent times. I also thank her for being as open as she feels she can be on this issue. I understand - and I believe the committee understands - the difficulties she has in addressing the issue because of the impositions and requirements of confidentiality on her on this issue. She has given us a very good summary of what Revenue did during that period of time. The problem we have to address today is what it did not do. That is obviously what the authorised officer has addressed in the dossier he sent each of us. Has Ms Feehily seen that document?

Ms Josephine Feehily

No.

I will give her a flavour of it so that I can address the kinds of statements the authorised officer is making about what the Revenue and other State agencies did or did not do during this period of time.

He refers to "the failure of various Ministers of the Government and agencies of the State, including the Revenue Commissioners, to permit and/or conduct a full investigation of these matters" - the Ansbacher matters. He goes on to refer to the failure of State agencies "including the Revenue Commissioners, and that no effective action was taken by any of those agencies to pursue these matters". He refers to "a report being sent by the Minister to the Revenue Commissioners, the Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation, the Office of the DCE and the Moriarty tribunal, and a second report being sent to the Revenue Commissioners by another Minister". He says,

To the best of my knowledge little or no effective action has been taken by any of these agencies on foot of these reports. Furthermore the contents of these reports which deal with very significant tax evasion over a lengthy period, at the expense of the taxpayer, have never been made public.

The authorised officer goes on in the same vein - this contrasts with what Ms Feehily has told us today - to indicate there was a failure on the part of the agencies of the State that were made aware of this information, which included the Revenue Commissioners, to act upon it and it is grossly negligent. He speaks at length and quite eloquently at times about the termination of incomplete investigations of evidence of significant tax evasion.

This is something which I suppose the Committee of Public Accounts would not be dealing with unless it had come from such a significant source. As Ms Feehily knows, it comes from a senior official in the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, someone with whom the Revenue Commissioners were familiar, with whom they did a lot of business in the early period and to whom Ms Feehily has paid tribute in her submission to us today. What does she have to say about these staggering allegations against the Revenue Commissioners?

Ms Josephine Feehily

This is the first time that I have heard them. Those allegations have not been made to me by the authorised officers or by his Ministers. So the Deputy has me at a bit of a disadvantage in that regard. I do not know what he has to substantiate his view. So I have to be very careful here with what I say because I do not have the dossier. I have a letter, clearly, which his Minister sent to the committee, which the clerk has passed to me, assuring the committee that all the papers in the Minister's possession have come to Revenue. What I do not have is his dossier and I certainly do not have a piece of paper that states that in his view we failed to do something. So the Deputy has me at a disadvantage in that regard.

In my preparation for this meeting, I did have conversations with senior officials who engaged with the authorised officer. It was on that basis that I included in my remarks what I have said. I think they will be quite surprised to hear this. I think one of them indicated to me in the last number of days that they had in the past received some compliments from him in their engagement - in their daily engagement - with him. The only reaction I can make is that I am surprised. I am not aware of that allegation.

I repeat that everything that came to us in those reports the Deputy references from the various Ministers has been examined. It has been followed through wherever it took us. Without going into confidentiality areas, unfortunately I cannot show those files to the authorised officer. I can only assure the Deputy that every document came to us under those Companies Acts provisions. I notice in the Deputy's remarks that he seems to suggest that they should have been published. Well, they are not my reports, so I certainly could not have done. I cannot publish taxpayer information anyway. The reports belong to the Ministers. They are prescribed in company law in terms of what they can do with them. So I am not sure what Revenue could have done by way of publishing such documents - nothing in fact.

Sorry if I-----

No, that is fine.

Ms Josephine Feehily

The Deputy caught me a little bit on the hop.

The authorised officer simply stated that the Revenue Commissioners were grossly negligent and that there was not enough investigation by them. That is his view. As I said, this comes from a person with whom the Revenue Commissioners had a good relationship at one stage. When did that good relationship end?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I suppose the relationship ended when the final material came to us. There would have been reasonably frequent engagement in the early part of the "noughties" and middle "noughties" while he was producing a series of authorised officers' reports.

I do not know whether we have information on when we had our final meeting with him, I will see if my colleague can find that for us. It is not an active relationship. It has not been active in recent years because the bulk of the material came to us before 2008.

Yes I think the last one was in 2007.

Ms Josephine Feehily

There was an addendum in February 2011. The bulk of the material came in the years that ended in 2008.

That was after what they called "the huge effort report".

Ms Josephine Feehily

The huge effort report came to us in early 2008.

Did the Revenue Commissioners have a meeting with him after that? The Revenue Commissioners were the only State agency to have a meeting with him. Is that correct?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes.

Does Ms Feehily have minutes of that meeting?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I have no idea. In my preparation, I asked general questions of the officers who had those meetings. They have notes of some meetings; others were informal meetings, where there are no minutes. It is most likely that we have minutes of that final meeting.

What was the atmosphere of a meeting such as that? At that time, it appears he was fed up with his investigations having been stymied.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I did not ask the official specifically about that meeting, I asked him about the meetings in a general way. He advised me yesterday that the authorised officer had expressed a view to him that he felt that we were taking action and the atmosphere was positive.

Does Ms Feehily reject the allegations which he is making, as read out by me?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I am not rejecting anything. I have to be very careful. The Deputy has me at a disadvantage.

Ms Josephine Feehily

The Deputy has something in front of him, which I do not have. I am simply saying that I am surprised. I am relating to the Deputy our experience of our engagement with the officer, which we felt was positive. I am not going any further than that.

Did Ms Feehily ever meet him?

Ms Josephine Feehily

No.

Not personally?

Ms Josephine Feehily

No.

Did Ms Ruddle, who is behind Ms Feehily meet him?

Ms Josephine Feehily

No.

Is there anybody here who had any communication with him?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Many of the people who had ongoing communication with the authorised officer are retired. As I have said in my opening remarks, this goes back quite a long time. We have reviewed the papers as best we can in preparation for today.

In terms of my reaction to this, my conclusion is that the gentleman has expressed a view, but a view is not a fact. Without knowing what basis he has for that view - I have some sympathy - because I cannot show him Revenue's files any more than I can show the committee Revenue's files. I can only assure him and assure the committee, as I did in my opening statement, that every document and every piece of information which came to us, either from him or from his Ministers, was examined and followed up, wherever it took us.

Okay. That is not his view.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I accept that.

That is the view of Ms Feehily.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I can only assure the Deputy that this in not just my view. That is what happened.

Okay, it is not his view. Let me go further. We are looking at this from the point of view of lost revenue to the State, and whether the Revenue Commissioners are collecting what ought to be collected. The officer is saying in his submission that he believes the reason he was stymied - in that he was called off his first investigation - why the second one, which was "the huge effort report", and the third one, which was the "addendum report", did not get the response that he thought they deserved was due to political interference. That is a very serious charge. Does Ms Feehily have any experience of political interference in the Revenue Commissioners?

Ms Josephine Feehily

No.

Has there never been any indication of that whatsoever?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I can only speak from my own experience, I cannot speak for somebody else but I certainly have no experience of political interference. We have discussed previously in this committee political engagement in the context of representations made to the Revenue Commissioners, properly and validly. In the interest of transparency, we have published the lists of the representations and the names of the Deputies, Senators and councillors who made them in our annual report for the past several years. I want to be clear, that is a different democratic engagement. There is a mile of a difference between political engagement and political interference. We have had representations, we have had briefings provided to spokespersons on technical matters but I have no experience of political interference in the Revenue Commissioners. I might point out that Mr. Justice Moriarty in his report indicated that he was satisfied that the long-standing convention of the independence of the Revenue Commissioners was observed by all. I can only speak for my own experience.

Is Ms Feehily saying that in the matter of the Ansbacher accounts, there was never any political interference?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Perhaps I might put it this way to the Deputy. During the period when we were doing the Ansbacher and other special investigations, we received in 1999 very considerable additional powers in Revenue which we had not had previously: first, the powers for the Revenue Commissioners to issue authorisations to officers to call for books and records without having to go to court; second, we received additional resources to support all of these investigations. Perhaps that is evidence - beyond my experience - of political support. In addition I did not experience nor have my colleagues said to me that there is any evidence of any interference.

I would have to refer the Deputy to the fact that these investigations took place under the watch of a number of my predecessors, which were examined in this committee while these were live investigations. I do not think either of those gentlemen were people that one would regard as being likely to be amenable to political interference. Deputy Fleming is smiling because he knows who I am talking about.

That is fine. On page 21 of this submission the authorised officer says in effect that his reports on the senior Deputies Caymen accounts were reported to three investigative authorities, the Garda, the ODCE and the Revenue, which were run by persons who had been appointed to their positions by Fianna Fáil and Progressive Democrats Ministers. It is the view of the authorised officer that there may be a connection between this fact and the fact that none of these authorities has undertaken any meaningful investigation into the apparent wrongdoing disclosed in the authorised officer's report.

I can translate it if Ms Feehily would like that.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I missed a piece in the middle. I was trying to see if my colleague had heard it.

What he is saying is that he believes there is a connection between the fact that the three investigative authorities, the Garda, the ODCE and the Revenue did not properly investigate this because there was a connection between them and the fact that the people at the top were political appointees. Would Ms Feehily comment on that? Does Ms Feehily not agree?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I do not agree with that. From Revenue's point of view, I absolutely do not agree.

That is fine. I am just trying to establish where the conflicts are and that Ms Feehily rejects what he is saying.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I keep saying that the Deputy is taking a little piece out of something that I do not have and then he is asking me to reject something that I do not have access to in total. I am not rejecting, I am just answering the Deputy's questions. I do not know the totality of what Deputy Ross has, because he has me at a significant disadvantage. I am trying to be as careful as I know Deputy Ross is trying to be.

The authorised officer mentions in this report what he calls "the black briefcase", a secret ledger in the Ansbacher accounts story, which apparently has not been properly investigated. Does Ms Feehily wish to comment on that?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Let me repeat that every piece of information he gave us was examined and followed through wherever it took us.

Is Ms Feehily aware of what he is talking about - obviously this is not particularly confidential - when he talks about this black briefcase?

Ms Josephine Feehily

The references are contained in documents we received from his Minister. Let me repeat that anything in that dossier that came from his Minister, as opposed to Deputy Ross's dossier, has been followed through.

Including a secret ledger to which he refers as the black briefcase.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Including the memorandum accounts systems which were set out in the High Court Inspector's report also. It is not just about black briefcases.

Did Revenue collect money from that particular file?

Ms Josephine Feehily

The totality of what we collected includes information that came from all of the sources. There was huge overlap between all of the sources. By the time we came to the middle of 2003, our case base for this project was pretty settled. We had received pretty well all of the information - not all of the evidence - on which that project was grounded by the second half of 2003. By then, we had secured High Court orders in 1999. As I stated in my opening statement, over the following four years we got close to 250,000 documents. We had also secured High Court orders against certain employees of certain financial institutions. We interviewed employees of financial institutions and had a huge amount of information, as opposed to reports, from the authorised officer by the middle of 2003. Our case base was pretty settled then. After that, we got a considerable amount of more documents, books and records which tended to validate the cases or not. We got very little new information after the middle of 2003.

Does Ms Feehily believe it was good that the authorised officer was pulled off the case in 2004?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I have no comment to make on that.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I have no information on his role under the Companies Acts or his role in his Department.

Was he not producing some very useful information?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I have no comment to make on his engagement with his own Ministers.

I am not asking Ms Feehily to comment on that at all. I am just saying that he produced stuff for the Revenue Commissioners, for which she paid him a great deal of tribute, but he was pulled off that. Surely if he was doing a good job, Ms Feehily had some response that this was stopped?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I have no comment on the quality of the job he was doing other than the quality of the helpful information that he gave us. I am complimenting him on the reports he gave us. Beyond that, I have no basis for making any other comment or judgment about the authorised officer.

Essentially, it did not make any difference to Ms Feehily whether he was pulled off or not?

Ms Josephine Feehily

In the context of our Ansbacher project, by the middle of 2003 we had established the case base we have. Our powers are probably more considerable than the authorised officer’s. The High Court inspectors commented in their report that our powers were more considerable than theirs. We identified cases that did not come to us from the authorised officer. We were on our own furrow, doing our own project. When we got information from him, we followed it up wherever it took us. That is all I really can say about what happened. He was helpful, his material was helpful and we followed it through.

I do not quite understand that. He was a senior civil servant doing a very good job, which Ms Feehily acknowledged, and he was suddenly pulled off that job. He was giving the Revenue Commissioners information all the time which they are following up and collecting moneys as a result.

I will put the question this way. Was Ms Feehily surprised? Would it not have been better for Revenue if he continued to follow the tracks he was giving as he was producing people and moneys for them?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Perhaps if I answer it this way, the final tranche of papers which came in 2011 actually came to me as it was in my term. I remember discussing it with an officer who has since retired after they had all been reviewed. He said to me there was nothing in that final dossier that we did not already have. Was I surprised in that context? I do not believe that I remember being surprised.

I have to repeat that the authorised officer’s scope was narrower than ours. We were now gone off on our own tracks. I referenced in my opening statement two one-off investigations where our High Court orders were opening up new avenues of inquiry for us. I do not have any sense that we were surprised, disappointed or anything. The information came and we followed it through. We developed our own project, our own methodologies and our own new sources with our powers which were broader than his.

So he was redundant at that stage.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I am sorry. The Deputy keeps trying to get me to make judgments on the gentleman. I am not making any judgments on him. I am trying to stick to the facts here.

On the 763-page report, known as the “huge effort” report and referred to by the then Minister, he was disappointed that Revenue’s response was minimal after a short meeting. After that, there was the addendum report which was referred to by another Minister which contained more information. Is that correct?

Ms Josephine Feehily

As I have said, that is the one I received in 2011. It did not contain anything we did not already know. I am not sure what we should have done. There was nothing new in the addendum document from our point of view. The Deputy should bear in mind that by then we had our 26 High Court orders, our own documents and information. That is the position with the addendum document.

There is a senior civil servant sending the Revenue this but he is getting no response at all. He believes it contains some new information.

Ms Josephine Feehily

It came to me under the Companies Act from the Secretary General of the Department. I am sure I acknowledged it. It was examined, followed through and checked. I was briefed by the officials handling it at the time. They assured me, first of all, that they had examined everything in it and, second, there was nothing in that we did not already know.

Several reasons for no prosecutions were given, namely, the absence of original documents, some involved were foreign residents who were ineligible, as well as other reasons. It seems to me that Revenue should have at least taken a test case. There must have been some cases out of the 289 they could have taken. Were there no documents in all of the 289 cases?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I will answer it this way. First, half of them had no tax liability.

Okay, we are dealing with 145 cases then.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Straight away that is a problem. Several cases were identified, examined very closely and considered in detail for prosecution. Detailed submissions were made and strong legal advice was secured, stating the ten-year condition was a significant, substantial impediment to a successful prosecution, making it virtually impossible.

Was the ten-year condition introduced in 1995?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I must take the Deputy’s word on that.

The Ansbacher offences were committed from 1970 to 1992.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Until the early 1990s.

Revenue could not prosecute anything after 2002 because of the ten-year rule.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes.

Revenue was pretty squeezed for time. It could have taken some prosecutions in 2001.

Ms Josephine Feehily

As I outlined earlier, we were securing evidential documentation under High Court order. It was into 2002 and 2003 before we had secured all of the papers for the first four High Court Orders. It is not just a question of prosecuting.

We had to get the evidence. The gathering of evidence for this investigation was going on in the early part of the noughties under High Court orders. Assembling them and connecting them to cases, identifying the mens rea, the knowingly and wilfully, etc., identifying the tax evasion, connecting the evasion to an account to a person, is a very painstaking exercise. Then the question was when was the offence committed. The ten years relates to when the offence was committed, not ten years back from the time we might be in a position to go to court. I can assure the Deputy it was examined very closely and, significantly, legal advices were sought.

So one could have reached a point-----

Ms Josephine Feehily

And it reaches a point where, when one is getting legal advice telling one that something is not going to succeed, one does have to pay attention.

One could have taken a prosecution for anybody who committed an offence up to 1997.

Ms Josephine Feehily

But one would have to identify the offence.

Correct. But Revenue had identified the offences in all these cases, otherwise they would not have settled.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I am assuring the Deputy that the burden of proof in a settlement is different. A criminal burden of proof is very significant, it is very painstaking, it is very slow. I have reviewed these files and I can assure the committee that a number of cases were looked at in great detail to see if they were suitable for prosecution. Our advice was that we would fail the ten year test.

In every single case.

Ms Josephine Feehily

In the cases that passed the gravity test and were at the point where we felt we had enough to make a stab.

Then why did all these people settle?

Ms Josephine Feehily

People settled for a wide variety of reasons. Our ability to raise a tax assessment does not require the same burden of proof as a criminal burden of proof for tax evasion. We can raise tax assessments. In the face of a tax assessment which we would be able to stand up, we are quite content we had evidence that tax was owed. There is a difference between tax being owed and tax being knowingly, wilfully, fraudulently, negligently - and all of those words - evaded, to the point of criminal standard.

This does not look too innocent. Does it?

Ms Josephine Feehily

It is just a different-----

Guys have got stuff stuffed away so that nobody can see it. It does not look as if they are doing it for an innocent reason. It looks pretty like evasion. Does it not?

I remind Deputy Ross of his time limit.

Sorry it is a prima facie case for evasion.

Ms Josephine Feehily

It may look like something but proving it to the criminal standard of a court is an entirely different challenge. From Revenue's point of view when we reach a stage in an investigation where criminal investigation comes to a point where it is not going to go anywhere, then we switch to civil law. We approach it from the point of view of tax assessment and, in many instances, in related tax assessments we receive settlements and interest and penalties. As the Comptroller and Auditor General has pointed out in his remarks, these offences were not without cost. The people involved pay the tax plus €130% on average. That is a hugely significant degree of penalties and interest by reference to our normal average penalties and interest that are imposed.

But you see what it looks like. It is pretty obvious that if these things are happening there is a prima facie case for tax evasion. I am not saying it is in every case but it looks very like it. When one sees people prosecuted for very small amounts of tax evasion in this country compared with these people and other people here getting settlements which appear to be reasonably generous without prosecution, it does look utterly wrong. Did the witness ever conduct an examination of the source of the funds that went out into the Ansbacher accounts? Where was the money from? I am not asking about the individuals. Was this hot money?

Ms Josephine Feehily

The source of the funds at case level would have been examined by the investigators to the extent that they could. They would have questioned it with the individual taxpayers because the source of the funds, whether they were taxed or untaxed in the first instance, would have been relevant to the size of the settlements. At case level, each of the investigators would have explored the source of the funds with the taxpayers in question.

Could the witness give us an idea of the source of the funds for a typical tax Ansbacher account holder?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I need to be really careful now because I am not commenting on taxpayer or classes of taxpayers. The information that is in the public domain, which the committee might find helpful, are the cases that we have published on our defaulters list, of which there are 58. The most common occupation on that list is company director. That might give the Deputy some sense of the source of the funds in those cases. The most common behaviour that my officials tell me might have been driving the people in question was sheltering family wealth. They were wealthy people sheltering wealth. If I go any further, there is a real danger I will be getting into identifying classes of people so I think I should stop there.

Can I just finish now? May I say this to finish up? What Ms Feehily has said is very useful because it sadly contradicts a lot of what we have heard from the whistleblower. One can see how it can look from his point of view. Let me sum up by saying this. He sees a situation where his inquiries were closed down. He sees a situation where the Revenue was unresponsive, more than unresponsive in one case, and negligent in pursuing what he drew to their attention. He sees a situation where politicians obstructed what he was trying to do. He sees a situation where what caused the huge report which he wrote, which is about politicians covering up what is going on, was also ignored and not properly investigated by the Revenue. He sees a situation where the addendum report was pretty well ignored until he got a response. Then he sees a situation - we all see a situation - which is still staggering to the public where approximately 145 people are not prosecuted for what appeared to be very serious tax evasions when other people are prosecuted for very small amounts. They ask the question as to how this happens. What I have put to Ms Feehily, admittedly she is absolutely right, she has not seen it - I cannot do that because I cannot even show it to her - she has, in effect, rejected what he says which means there is a good case for inviting him to appear before the committee to substantiate those allegations which he has made.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I need to make it very clear that I am not rejecting something I have not seen.

Ms Josephine Feehily

The Deputy is putting words, sentences, to me which appear to be an opinion. I cannot reject an opinion, so I am not rejecting something I have not seen. My assurance to the committee is that we followed through on every piece of paper, piece of information or document received from the authorised officer and his various Ministers down the years and they were examined and followed through. That is what I am saying to the committee and obviously today, to the authorised officer. I am not making a judgment on his view because I am not in a position to do that. I would have to also remind the committee that this happened a long time ago. Revenue's powers, Revenue's orientation, Revenue's organisation has changed fundamentally since the mid-1990s in terms of prosecution and in terms of our focus on prosecution. The fact of the matter is that the law provides a ten year rule for us. I am also advised that in terms of regulatory law and white collar law, for want of a better word, that this is actually quite high.

Ten years would be normal, or occasionally, shorter periods. It is not exceptional in common law to have those kinds of ten-year rules, even if they were not written into the taxes Acts. That was where we found ourselves - in a position where the law was an impediment.

It is important to clarify this issue before I call Deputies. On behalf of this committee I wrote to the Minister and asked him, as requested by the committee members at a private meeting, to send on the dossier and any supporting evidence of tax evasion to the Revenue Commissioners. That request was made to the Minister because this committee could not forward the documentation directly to the Revenue Commissioners. We took legal advice on that matter and then I took the step, on behalf of this committee, of advising the Minister of all of the issues and making a specific request that he refer the dossier and any supporting evidence of tax evasion to the Revenue Commissioners. A copy of that letter was sent to Ms Feehily's office.

In his reply, the Minister states, "I can confirm to the committee that full disclosure of information has been made to the Revenue Commissioners..." It would have been helpful if the Revenue Commissioners had received that documentation from the Minister and I am disappointed that did not happen. I had presumed from his reply that it did happen. We should request again of the Minister that the specific dossier that members of this committee have be sent to the Revenue Commissioners. We cannot do that but have asked the Minister to do it.

In response to the point made by Deputy Ross, the request of the committee members was acted upon. Ms Feehily's office was informed of the wishes of this committee. I am disappointed that the dossier has not been sent to the Revenue Commissioners, although Revenue does have all of the other substantial information related to this which was forwarded by various Ministers in the past. I note that Ms Feehily has said that there was nothing new in the documents from 2011.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes, I obviously received copies of the correspondence from Mr. McKinley, as the Chairman pointed out, and took it at face value until Deputy Ross read out some material which I have not yet seen.

That is not Ms Feehily's fault. The point is that she should have seen it. It should have been sent to Revenue. That was and still is the request of this committee. Deputy Ross was quoting material and asking Ms Feehily questions based on the presumption that, at the request of the committee, all of this has happened, but it has not. We will ask the Minister again.

I welcome the witnesses. The authorised officer in this case would have been a source of information for Revenue and would have assisted Revenue's investigations as a matter of course. If Revenue, as an organisation, settled with somebody, would he have known that?

Ms Josephine Feehily

No, apart from the 58 cases which we have published. We have no way of advising him of same and I referenced that fact in one of my earlier answers.

This is a critical issue because to a great extent, we are talking in the dark here. He would not have known because Revenue would not have divulged such information to the authorised officer at any point because, as Ms Feehily has said several times, Revenue does not divulge personal information relating to the tax affairs of any citizen. If Revenue had pursued an individual, even someone who was identified in the reports of the authorised officer, and had settled with that individual, the authorised officer would not know about that, even today, would he?

Ms Josephine Feehily

No, he would not have known unless it came into the public domain through our defaulters' list. He would have known that we were making progress with the class because we regularly published updates but not at case level.

So, the individual who has pursuing this issue for many years has no information with regard to how Revenue has pursued prosecutions or made settlements. If Revenue made settlements with individuals, some of whom are named in the dossier, he would not have that information.

Ms Josephine Feehily

That is correct. He would not know what we did in individual cases.

So, we really are talking in the dark here.

Not to beat around the bush, the accusation has been made that the Revenue Commissioners and other organisations did not complete investigations into particular Ansbacher accounts appropriately or properly. Accusations have been made of political interference. As Deputy Ross said, the main accusation relates to things Revenue did not do. Were there things that Revenue could not do, under legislation? I refer in particular to the ten-year rule mentioned by Deputy Ross which was introduced in the 1997 Taxes Consolidation Act. Did Revenue have an opinion on that? Ms Feehily said that Revenue was given special powers in 1999 which really assisted it to prosecute. When it came to the ten-year rule, did Revenue have reservations? That rule obviously prevented Revenue from pursuing some cases.

The Revenue Commissioners are the administrators of the tax code. They are not the policy makers but it is fair to say that they have views and opinions on legislation that affects the tax code and they give those views and opinions to the Department of Finance regularly. It is expected that the board of the Revenue Commissioners would have an opinion on legislation, both formally and informally. Was a view presented by Revenue to the Department of Finance on the ten-year rule?

Ms Josephine Feehily

First, I am not entirely sure, without checking, in what year that provision was introduced because the Taxes Consolidation Act was a consolidation of the tax code. Deputy Ross said it was introduced in 1992 and he is probably the best source on that, subject to checking. I would have to check the papers around the drafting of that section to see what view was expressed. That said, my strong understanding on the basis of recent explorations of this issue, is that in the common law, even if we did not have that section in place, a prosecution for an offence committed more than ten years ago in this regulatory space, as opposed to other forms of jurisprudence, would be likely to fail the justice delayed - justice denied test.

Our role in a prosecution is to prepare cases and bring them to the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP. Certainly, engagement with the DPP would confirm the view that such a time period is an impediment, regardless of the section that is in place. I can say that based on my own discussions in Revenue in recent years because I have explored it. I would have to research and get my officials to check the papers from the year that the section was drafted to see what view Revenue may have expressed then. I was not even in the Revenue Commissioners at that time.

Ms Feehily made reference to the fact that when a criminal investigation would not pan out, her office turns to civil action. Does the ten-year rule apply in those circumstances too?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes, in fact in civil actions, the common law view would be that the time period is even shorter. We have a four-year rule, generally speaking, vis-à-vis our authority to go backwards and that is considered relatively long.

I ask this because for the public looking in, this is the main issue. The public want to know why Revenue cannot go back 20 or 30 years in the course of an investigation. It would be helpful if Ms Feehily spelled out why that is the case. Is it because Revenue cannot get its hands on the original documentation, some of which may date back to the 1970s? Is it because of common law and the ten-year rule under the Taxes Consolidation Act that Revenue is prevented from doing so? It would be useful if Ms Feehily spelled out the various reasons Revenue cannot pursue an investigation after a certain period of time.

Ms Josephine Feehily

When one has two huge reasons, one tends not to go looking for three, four or five more. One needs original documents and evidence first.

One needs to be able to prove a connection between these documents, the person involved and tax evasion done knowingly, willingly or negligently. There needs to be a criminal standard of proof which is beyond reasonable doubt in respect of connections of this nature. This must all be done within ten years. We are talking here about events which took place in the 1970s and 1980s. That is a real difficulty. That was codified, so to speak, in law in the form of the ten-year rule.

Those are the reasons. They are common reasons which are not confined to Revenue, they apply across processes relating to the legal system and in terms of natural justice and fairness. In general law they have been commented on several times by judges in the context of fairness, the due process to which people are entitled, in the context of how far back regulatory bodies are permitted to go and so on. If it would be helpful, I can send a note to the committee in which I will set out all of the background considerations. However, it will come down to the issues to which I refer, namely, evidence beyond reasonable doubt, original documents and the ten-year rule.

I return to the reason we are here, that is, the accusation that Revenue did not investigate this matter properly. I would like Ms Feehily to provide information on the special projects team that was appointed to investigate the Ansbacher accounts, the number of people who were involved and the expertise they possessed.

Ms Josephine Feehily

The team was led by a very senior and experienced principal inspector of taxes who had previously carried out many investigations. He had available to him 20 staff, including half a dozen experienced investigators and research and clerical support staff. We invested in computer technology - the file magic system - we never had before and this proved to be an incredible asset to the team in sifting through all of the documentation. As the 2000s progressed and as I mentioned to Deputy Ross, other investigations were taking place. The investigation into bogus non-resident accounts ran in parallel in 2001. We were also dealing with matters relating to High Court orders, offshore assets and tribunals. During those years, Revenue received sanction for 300 additional staff. We increased the number of people dealing with this group of cases from 20 to 30. The number of people on the team reached 30 in 2001. We maintained that number of people working on these cases until 2005. The ratio of people to cases was extraordinarily high by Revenue or any other standards. By the time the case base reached 289, there were 30 officers involved. There was also a structure in place for the first couple of years of the process whereby very regular meetings were held. These were led by very experienced assistant secretaries who were all qualified inspectors of taxes in their own right and one of whom was a qualified barrister. There were also regular meetings with the then chairman, at which direction, strategy and decisions were continually questioned. The matter was taken extremely seriously.

Ms Feehily referred to the ten-year rule being a serious impediment. Were there other impediments? The legislation underpinning the 1993 tax amnesty was introduced. Did the then board of Revenue or any senior officials give an official opinion to the Department of Finance with regard to this amnesty? Some people, including a number of academics, remain of the opinion that the tax amnesty in question was unnecessary. There were massive differences between the 1988 amnesty, which was operated on the basis that all outstanding taxes be recouped, and the 1993 amnesty, which was known as the "15% incentive amnesty". There is a theory - I have heard it outlined on a number of occasions - that as the investigations into the Ansbacher accounts proceeded in the period 2003 to 2005, plenty of people in senior positions in Revenue had major misgivings with regard to the way in which the legislation relating to the 1993 amnesty was drafted. Some Ansbacher account holders availed of the 1993 tax amnesty and when they were pursued, they had the certificates they had obtained as a result of that and these made them immune from prosecution. This is a really important point. Some 20 Ansbacher account holders availed of the tax amnesty and there is a suggestion that the legislation under which that amnesty was established was politically motivated. I accept that Ms Feehily cannot comment on that matter to a certain extent. However, I am going to ask her about the kinds of reservations which continued to be expressed in Revenue while the investigations to which I refer were ongoing.

Ms Josephine Feehily

To be clear and as the Deputy stated, I must be careful not to comment on the policy area. I joined Revenue at the end of 1993 as the closing date for the amnesty approached. It was common currency among senior officials in Revenue that we were not exactly excited about this matter.

It is fair to say Revenue does not like amnesties at all.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Exactly.

It particularly did not like the one to which I refer.

Ms Josephine Feehily

No, we particularly did not like it and that is well known. Without reviewing the relevant files, I cannot inform the Deputy as to whether that was ever written down in a letter. However, it is well known - information in this regard has been placed in the public domain in the past - that the then board of the Revenue Commissioners was not in favour of it. I recall there being some criticism of the then board because the amnesty yielded a lot of money. The board had stated that it was not necessary and should not be done because there would not be very much money forthcoming. I remember that aspect of a conversation taking place after the yield emerged. Revenue was not in favour of amnesties in general and would not have liked this one at all. The committee will be aware that in the past there have been various voluntary disclosure schemes, which are incentivised. However, the Revenue position would always be that we should get the tax. That is just a general position of revenue organisations across the globe. We do not like to walk away from tax. I do not think I am commenting on policy when I say that the general position of Revenue and similar organisations elsewhere is that we do not favour amnesties which let people off paying tax. The amnesty was a huge impediment.

Specifically, what were the impediments involved?

Ms Josephine Feehily

The amnesty was designed to create a brick-solid Chinese wall between everybody and the office of the chief special collector, which was specially established. The chief special collector and his staff handled all of the amnesty declarations. On foot of those declarations - they were not allowed to examine them and they had no access to the tax files of the declarants - they issued the declarants with certificates. In law, those certificates were sufficient evidence to the rest of Revenue to the effect that, at any time in the future, we could not look behind them. A special unit was established. Those present from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General will recall that Revenue had to suspend its internal audit function because of the difficulty of finding officials who had never seen tax files. An assurance had to be given that such officials would never see such files in the future and this meant that their careers had to be managed. I recall this because I worked in human resources, HR, at the time. We were obliged to suspend the internal audit function in order to find people who we could state were in compliance with the law because they had never been involved - as tax inspectors within the Collector General's office or anywhere else - in cases in the past. There was a logistical dimension involved which I do remember. An impermeable wall - behind which the amnesty declarations are to this day - was put in place.

To this day we have a chief special collector and if a taxpayer produces an amnesty certificate to an inspector in the context of any investigation, the inspector, once he or she has it, can verify by asking the chief special collector whether the certificate is authentic and that is all that can be done.

Let us stick with the 20 Ansbacher account holders who availed of the tax amnesty in 1993. While Revenue was investigating this in 2003, 2004 and 2005, the Chairman had been there for ten years. For example, Revenue was not able to trace the source of moneys, which I understand to have been a major bugbear within the Chairman's organisation.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes.

At that time, when Revenue had made its considerations regarding its difficulties with the legislation that had been drafted and had been availed of by 20 particular Ansbacher account holders, did Revenue make its displeasure known to the Department of Finance?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes.

How did Revenue do that?

Ms Josephine Feehily

We wrote to it.

What was the response?

Ms Josephine Feehily

We wrote in the context of looking for additional powers and we got most of what we looked for. However, as for the response with regard to the amnesty legislation, it was not revisited.

Was the reason given for that? Revenue obviously spelled out serious concerns with regard to particular individuals because it was precluded from pursuing them.

Ms Josephine Feehily

We spelled out concerns with regard to the process and the difficulties it created for us. I have not been able to find a reply to the letter but I know that the other powers in the letter were secured. This one was not.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Revisiting the amnesty legislation.

Did the Chairman state there was no reply?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I have not been able to find it in the time allowed.

Can the Chairman remember what the Department of Finance said to Revenue?

Ms Josephine Feehily

No. I certainly cannot remember but the fact it did not happen I guess is the answer.

It is an important question. The Revenue Commissioners are, and at the time were, the administrators of the tax code. They had one hand tied behind their backs with regard to particular individuals. Revenue made its opinion clear that it was not appropriate and that the legislation underpinning all of this needed to be changed but that was ignored.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I am reviewing a piece of paper to make sure I am giving the Deputy the complete answer. Our final paragraph stated that when the Department had had an opportunity to peruse the contents of this, it probably would be appropriate to have the views of the Attorney General and that we were available to discuss it with the Department and with that office, if required. This would not be an unusual process for us. Each year, we write submissions to the Department of Finance and then certain results are achieved. That Department does not usually write back to say it is not doing X. That is not usually the way it works. What it tends to do in a normal year, and I imagine this was no different, is that it feeds into a tax strategy group paper and then the decisions emerge from a process, rather than in an itemised reply. We would not have got a reply in respect of the answers that were positive either. It is not that kind of process. We make our submissions and make known our views, analysis gets done and a finance Bill emerges. Policy decisions get made by the Government and a finance Bill emerges. However, we did try.

The Chairman outlined the profile of the people who were Ansbacher account holders. Of the 20 people who availed of the tax amnesty and who were Ansbacher account holders, can she tell me what was their profile?

Ms Josephine Feehily

No.

That is not possible, no?

Ms Josephine Feehily

No.

Is that a reason-----

Ms Josephine Feehily

I do not know who they are. I cannot know who they are.

Ms Josephine Feehily

They are behind a wall.

The Chairman knows the profile of the overall group of Ansbacher account holders but she does not know the profile.

Ms Josephine Feehily

What I have said to the Deputy earlier, because I am in danger of getting close to classes and breaking confidentiality, I referenced the profile of the cases that were published as being the most suitable source of information for the committee and the profile there was of very wealthy people, the occupation largely being company directors and the behaviour as being about sheltering wealth. I need to be safe.

That is fair enough and I totally appreciate that. However, I must clear up something in this regard. The inference is that of those 20 people who availed of that tax amnesty in 1993, there was political pressure or a political motive behind the drafting of the 1993 legislation. My question is whether Revenue ever expressed a concern related to that.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I doubt very much if Revenue in 1992 or 1993 would have expressed a view-----

I am not talking about 1993. I am talking about ten tears later as Revenue was investigating this matter.

Ms Josephine Feehily

-----about a political motivation. No. I want to narrow it and that is the Deputy's question.

This is clear. It is important this is said.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Revenue did not express a view nor would ever express a view about the motivation of a policy decision taken by the Government.

That is fair enough.

Ms Josephine Feehily

A policy decision validly taken by the Government and passed into law by the Oireachtas. Revenue would then simply operate that law. The independence works both ways. While we have our independence we have our - incidentally, in the context of the amnesty, 38,000 people availed of it. The frustration that perhaps caused us to write letters was not related to Ansbacher. The 20 people were not the issue; it was the 38,000 people and it was a bigger issue for us.

A lot of money was raised but the argument is that a lot more should have been raised because it was only a 15% tax. That is a view expressed by the Chairman's organisation at the time.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes.

That is fair enough.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Another observation that is worth making is that 145 people did settle who could have availed of the amnesty at 15% but did not.

I have a couple of quick questions. I refer to the two reports under discussion today and acknowledge the Chairman does not have them to hand. Can she tell me whether they identified new cases?

Ms Josephine Feehily

No, and perhaps I can explain why. We are talking about the two dossiers that Revenue received from the relevant Ministers in 2008 and 2011. The reason is they were not new cases but there were new documents. There was supporting evidence and there was validation. However, there had been highly significant engagement with the authorised officer right through the period before that.

That is important and let me ask the Chairman a different question. Did that new information or those new documents cause Revenue either to bring a case to a conclusion or to reopen a case?

Ms Josephine Feehily

They certainly did not cause us to reopen any cases. They would have been helpful in advancing cases because the Deputy saw the graph and we really were in settlement mode there. However, I must repeat that by then we had secured substantial documents, definitely more numerically, than those to which the authorised officer ever had access. As we had our own sources and our own documentation, what we were getting largely was validation and supporting documentation and that always is helpful.

I think that is it but if I may comment, I believe the first question I asked is very important and the response that was given is critical to this entire episode and that is that if Revenue actually have settled, for argument's sake, with individuals who have been named in a particular dossier, the authorised officer would not know about it. The authorised officer would not have any details with regard to the settlement, would not know how it was pursued or whether prosecution was pursued. The authorised officer would not have that information. We are talking in the dark and it is critical that this information be made known.

I thank the witnesses from the Office of the Revenue Commissioners who are present. In particular, I thank Ms Feehily for her contribution today. It may well be the last time members of the committee see her here.

We will do our best to bring Ms Feehily in again before that takes place.

She indicated she has not received the documents we received and that they had not been forwarded to her by the Minister or any source. In light of the allegations made in those documents, that part of Revenue's investigation was negligent and that it did not investigate certain matters, is she now entitled to request the documents directly from the authorised officer?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I have been thinking about that with a view to deciding what I should do now. I need to reflect on the matter because it came as a complete surprise to me. I will reflect on what we can usefully do in light of this and the Chairman's remarks about the Department. I am disappointed and I think my officials will be disappointed that the officer did not say those things to us so that we could, perhaps, help. As Deputy Deasy pointed out, confidentiality applies to everybody. It is important that we do not focus solely on a handful of cases. Taxpayer confidentiality is an important pillar of tax systems all over the world and it applies to everybody. Several months ago the Minister for Finance stated in the Dáil that even he could not know these details. This is something which has been put in place deliberately and it is in the law. I am taking the committee's word that the claims were made because I am at a disadvantage in this regard but if the officer had concerns we would have seen what we could do to reassure him, short of giving him information about cases, which we cannot do. I need to reflect on the matter.

In one way or another the document will come into Ms Feehily's possession because the Minister will no doubt forward it to her. Is she prepared to come before us again regarding the matters into which we have inquiring today in order to clarify the situation from her point of view? These are serious allegations.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Can I answer that in a conditional way?

Ms Josephine Feehily

If I get this dossier and if there is some way Revenue can help the committee, we are always anxious to help the committee in any way we can. However, in respect of individual cases, instances, classes or groups, I will not be able to go beyond what I have said. I assure the committee that every document we received until now was checked and followed through wherever it took us. The settlements and the size of the yield speak for themselves. If there is some way we can help the committee in the future, we are prepared to do that.

I take that as a "Yes".

Ms Josephine Feehily

The Deputy can take it as a "Yes", provided there is something with which we can help the committee and provided we get access to something that is a bit of a surprise to me.

To what degree has there been a two-way process between Revenue and the authorised officer? For example, Ms Feehily indicated that her officials and, perhaps, Ms Feehily herself met the authorised officer on a number of occasions. I ask for some idea of the number of such occasions and who initiated the meetings.

Ms Josephine Feehily

It was quite an informal engagement. There were, for example, three meetings in 2006 at which we followed up with him in terms of looking for documentation. In regard to whether engagements were initiated by him or us, it was probably mutual. There was a considerable amount of engagement. There were three or four meetings in 2005. Letters were also sent back and forth. The activity was during those years. There were letters, meetings and, I have no doubt, phone calls. As I noted in my opening statement, we secured a High Court order to inspect and take copies of documents he held on microfilm. That was also in or around the same period, in 2005. I can only give a flavour of our engagement, I am afraid.

The engagement was quite extensive. Revenue met the authorised officer, received the microfilm and the huge effort document. A considerable amount of information was communicated to Revenue from the officer, both orally and in documentation.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes, and every piece was followed through and examined.

Can Ms Feehily put a figure on the value of that information? She indicated the estimated amount of money forthcoming from the tribunals was €6 million and that the total amount forthcoming from all of Revenue's investigations was €130 million between penalties and the original sums. How valuable was the authorised officer in terms of successfully obtaining an outcome? Can Ms Feehily put a rough figure on the information that he supplied to Revenue's investigations?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I can try. To recap, there was a considerable overlap in all sorts of documentary sources. We had his reports and subsequent documents, the High Court inspector's report and the underlying documents which we secured a couple of years later under a High Court order, as well as our own High Court orders and our own research. Our research began subsequent to the McCracken tribunal. Even before we received anything from the authorised officer, a number of cases were coming into frame. There was a huge amount of overlap in all of these numbers. We isolated 27 cases that the authorised officer's reports brought to us and which we did not have from a different source. More than half of those cases had no liability, if I am reading my notes correctly. I am trying to interpret certain figures to see if I can be helpful to the committee. I cannot put a value on the matter today. Ten of the 27 cases that were exclusively down to the authorised officer resulted in additional liabilities.

I presume there was also assistance in other cases.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Due to the overlaps, all of the documentation was validating and giving us a basis for certainty in our own research.

Out of those ten cases, can Ms Feehily indicate the sums of money obtained?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I cannot do so readily, and I need to be very careful when dealing with numbers that are less than double digits.

Can we say that some of the sums obtained were substantial?

Ms Josephine Feehily

All of the ones that were settled were substantial. The Comptroller and Auditor General outlined the averages in his opening remarks. The yields were substantial. I would be happy to put a round number on them in a note to the committee but I will not be able to go any closer than that.

It would be fair to conclude that information supplied by the authorised officer was valuable to Revenue's investigations.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I have acknowledged that in my opening statement. The information he gave us and the ongoing engagement with him were helpful.

Would Ms Feehily suggest that the later information was, by and large, already covered and did not lead to further investigations or additional results?

Ms Josephine Feehily

It did not provide any new cases. The later information was examined and followed through. It did not provide any new cases for the Ansbacher project.

The authorised officer could have come to the conclusion that no investigation took place, while there might have been a full and thorough examination of the information supplied because, as Ms Feehily indicated to Deputy Deasy, there was not a clear two-way process regarding her findings.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Perhaps he did. Again, I would have thought the level of engagement and the fact that we followed through with a court order for his underlying microfilms and that letters were exchanged and meetings held in 2005 and 2006, would have assured him of our endeavours and the fact that we were persistent and were following through. I cannot judge what caused him to form the view that has been relayed to me today.

Would Ms Feehily agree with Deputy Deasy's statement that there was not a strong two-way process for the authorised officer to be aware of the outcome of the ten particular items that she said had provided additional moneys and the other investigations?

Ms Josephine Feehily

The suggestion that there was not a strong two-way process implies we could have fixed it. There was a taxpayer confidentiality barrier to our giving him information about taxpayers. Similarly, there was a company law barrier on what he could do. We are both creatures of different bodies of law. The authorised officer had his body of law, which enabled him to do only a certain, narrow area of work and to send the report in certain directions. When it came to us, it had to come with the direction set by the relevant Minister. In our body of law we have a broader range of powers, but it includes absolute taxpayer confidentiality. In some ways, we are in silos regarding the case level information. I assure the authorised officer, if he needs assurance, that we followed through on and examined every piece of information he gave us, regardless of where it took us.

Ms Feehily said she had an ongoing investigation, which has already produced €65 million, and that she expected to produce double that. Despite the graph that showed we had hit the upward trajectory in 2007, this could mean that Ms Feehily is in the process of doubling the amount of money she got, rising from €113 million to almost €250 million. This would indicate that there is still a treasure trove out there that has not been uncovered and that perhaps all documentation needs to be re-examined.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I am sorry if I created confusion by introducing the spin-off investigations. The graph is correct regarding what we call the Ansbacher project. Some six cases remain, four of which are at appeal. I was trying to show that because of the extent of our powers, which are much broader than those of the authorised officer or the High Court company law inspectors, which they acknowledge, as we went through the reiterative High Court orders and found new evidence of practices, we followed them. I was trying to show the persistence and resilience we brought to the entire special investigations era, which has yielded over €2 billion. For example, one of the High Court orders which we got against an offshore financial entity gave us evidence of a footprint in a clearing bank in Ireland. Thus we had somewhere else to go, and we got new High Court orders against the clearing bank regarding the offshore entity, and this spun off a separate special investigation, which we call the clearing accounts investigation, and it brought in €25 million.

As I indicated in my opening remarks, approximately 700 trusts, special purpose vehicles and entities were associated with these cases. It was not easy to break down the trusts. As we did so, we learned about how they were structured and how the settlers operated. In the Finance Act 2008, we secured a new power automatically requiring entities in this jurisdiction - individuals, financial institutions, lawyers, etc. - establishing an offshore trust to report the establishment to us. The power had a backward effect. They had to report everything they had established since 2003. That spun us off into another one, which is ongoing. The information began to come in to us in 2009 and has been coming in since. It has secured €65 million, and the figure is rising because it is ongoing. I am sorry if I confused the two projects. I was trying to show how persistent we are when we get a source of information and funds.

What the two projects have in common is that they are Ansbacher.

Ms Josephine Feehily

No. What all three projects have in common is that they are about trusts and financial institutions, money moving onshore and offshore. Ansbacher is in its own box, and its footprint is not on the other ones.

Ms Feehily said the combined yield from the Ansbacher investigations and the two spin offs is likely to exceed €250 million.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes. Ansbacher does not extend into the two, however we learned things from our Ansbacher work which brought us in another direction.

It is confusing.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I am sorry.

Ms Feehily said, "One Ansbacher-related High Court order resulted in additional yield of €25 million in a spin-off investigation." It was an Ansbacher related High Court order.

Ms Josephine Feehily

It was a High Court order regarding an offshore financial institution. When we received the documents, following up on our 289 cases, we found that there was a particular practice which meant an Irish clearing bank had other documents we could get. We looked for the order under the Ansbacher project, and it gave us what we needed. From it, we learned how clearing banks and offshore banks were interconnected, and we went for new orders. That is what I meant when I said we spun off a project from it and followed it in another direction which had nothing to do with Ansbacher. I am sorry if I confused the Deputy.

My second question was whether there was a treasure trove. This project is as late as 2009 and is ongoing. This indicates that, having worked on it since 1998 or 1999, and before it on various matters, and having found a large sum of money that is still out there in the ether, there is reason to believe there is more. How is the investigation? How many people does Ms Feehily have working for her? Is she pursuing further avenues?

Ms Josephine Feehily

We are always pursuing issues. We always have new projects and try to unearth new scams. This year alone, our special investigations will bring in approximately €25 million. The environment for tax evasion has changed enormously, particularly for global tax evasion. The EU savings directive gives us access to foreign bank accounts and now, given the environment under the OECD for the ending of banking secrecy and opening up automatic exchange of information in 2017, way outside the European Union, I have no doubt we will get new avenues of inquiry.

There is always something new.

Can I ask a brief final question?

I will allow the Deputy to ask a final question.

CRH was where the Ansbacher unlicensed bank operated from. Has Revenue conducted an investigation into CRH?

Ms Josephine Feehily

My taxpayer confidentiality extends to entities as well people so I am not going to comment.

Has there been nothing in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report on CRH?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I could not comment on individual taxpayer cases either.

I thank the Chairman.

Please bear with me as my voice is a bit gravelly and I shall try not to cough.

Ms Josephine Feehily

My throat is getting dry too.

First, Ms Feehily has repeatedly underscored the credibility of the former authorised officer. Clearly she regarded him and still regards him as diligent, capable and reliable. Is that a fair summation of her professional view of this individual?

Ms Josephine Feehily

My professional view, before I came in here this morning, was based on my engagement with my officials. As I said in my opening remarks, we found the authorised officer's information helpful, we found his reports helpful and we followed through on all of it. I would prefer not to comment on personality. I have never met him. Some new suggestions were made to me here today and I really do not want to go there.

I did not invite Ms Feehily to make a commentary based on personality. I simply asked her to establish the professional bona fides of this individual who, as she has said, was helpful in the investigations carried out.

I am surprised at her surprise, in respect of this dossier. As the Cathaoirleach has pointed out, Revenue should have it in its possession because that request was made of the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton. I think Revenue wrote to him on 19 November, if I am not mistaken.

Nonetheless the person concerned is critical of Revenue and critical of the depth of investigation or lack of investigation. Without making a judgment as to whether those assertions are right or wrong, does Ms Feehily agree with me that those are very serious allegations of grave concern given that they come from a person with the bona fides that she has described?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I would have to see them before I could agree with the Deputy.

No doubt Ms Feehily will when the dossier is delivered to Revenue.

Can Ms Feehily give us some sense of what will happen next when the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation finally - I hope expeditiously and perhaps on the back of this meeting - sends Revenue the dossier? Who will get it? What will it trigger within Revenue?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I have no idea.

Who will analyse it?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I have no idea. I really could not speculate on what might happen with something that I do not have.

Ms Feehily would have been aware of media commentary over the past month or so since the dossier came into the possession of members of this committee. Therefore, she would have been aware of concerns that it referred to matters pertaining to Ansbacher and that it pertained to an investigation of those matters. Did it not occur to her or anyone else in Revenue to make contact with the Department or with some body to seek clarification or seek the dossier itself? The authorised officer is still a serving civil servant. Did it not occur to anybody in Revenue to make contact with him directly?

Ms Josephine Feehily

It certainly occurred to me, if that is the Deputy's question. I was also aware, from the media, of significant legal uncertainty around the nature of the dossier, including here in the PAC, so I thought it prudent to stand back. What I did instead was I began a conversation, internally, to see what we had received in the past and so on. I then became aware, from correspondence from the clerk, that the committee had asked the Minister to forward the dossier to me. I became aware of the Minister's letter which was assuring the committee that I had all of the documentation. That is why I was surprised. The Deputy was surprised at my surprise but the Minister's letter said that Revenue has all the documentation. I have to say that I did not parse and analyse that and say, "Is there something I don't have?"

Ms Josephine Feehily

I had no reason to go looking for something when I knew there seemed to be some legal uncertainty about its status.

If nothing else, today's meeting establishes that Revenue ought to have the dossier.

Ms Josephine Feehily

No. It establishes that the committee has something that I do not have.

Right, but we have something that we wish Revenue to have.

Ms Josephine Feehily

The Deputy asked whether I can have such a dossier.

Ms Josephine Feehily

There will have to be a legal basis for a dossier, of any description, to be given to Revenue. I think the committee has learned that complexity itself in the last short while. Every report we received from the various Ministers came to us, and I need to emphasise this, under company law with company law rules about what we could do with it, who could pass it on and who could receive it.

Ms Josephine Feehily

It is a complicated legal environment.

I appreciate that. It was exactly for those reasons that we made the request for the Minister to pass it to Revenue rather than doing so directly ourselves.

I want to take Ms Feehily back to something she has said a number of times here today. She has put very strong emphasis on the fact that by the middle of 2003 Revenue essentially had their case base established. Is that right, Ms Feehily?

Ms Josephine Feehily

For this project.

Was that for project Ansbacher?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes.

The official has said that, in fact, it was late 2003 that discovery was made of the very secret Ansbacher accounts, the black briefcase or whatever label Ms Feehily wishes to put on it. Therefore, it is at that stage it is alleged that this secret ledger is discovered. Thereafter, in the spring of 2004 that information is made known to the relevant Minister and by the summer of 2004 the investigation ceases. That is the sequence of events. Given that Revenue had the bulk of its cases established by the middle of 2003, was there a secret ledger? Did the investigator in late 2003, and into early 2004, unearth another ledger and another set of entities or persons requiring investigation? Obviously I am not asking Ms Feehily to name names.

Ms Josephine Feehily

The nature of the way the accounts were structured - memorandum accounts without names and so on - was well known by then. It was set out, in general terms, in the High Court inspectors' report in any event.

What I am saying is that when we received additional information from the authorised officer, by then we had full and complete access to quarter of a million documents from two financial institutions and two related entities, we had interviewed and received High Court orders against some employees so we had built up our own sources of information. We examined everything that the officer sent to see were there new cases. They were all followed through and there were no additional cases for the Ansbacher project that we had not already identified.

I am very conscious of the restrictions of the meeting. I do not want to trespass into any area that is not appropriate for the committee. However, I want to get clarity on this point. Is Ms Feehily saying that the new ledger as described by the official had already been discovered by the Revenue Commissioners so that while it may have been new to him, it was not new to them? Alternatively, is she saying that Revenue received the information which he regarded as extremely significant and discounted or disregarded it?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I am not in a position to comment on the narrow question the Deputy is asking about a particular ledger. What I am satisfied about is that we did not get any new information or cases. We had considerably broader powers than the authorised officer. We had already used those powers and gone to the High Court. We had received 250,000 documents. I cannot tell the Deputy now what every one of those documents contained, but I can say that I am satisfied having probed the question with my officials. We had information and had settled on cases that needed an examination and investigation. We were attempting to see if there were more which is why we devoted so many subsequent hours and High Court orders to this. However, the information we received from him did not add any new cases to our Ansbacher project. That is what I am saying. What my colleague is telling me is that his information may have added to our knowledge but it did not add any new names to the cases we had identified as we were already using our powers.

I understand. However, this is what a lot of this hinges on. I do not wish to be pedantic, but this is critical. At the core of his complaint - quite aside from the political arm of things and obstruction, which it is not proper for Ms Feehily to comment on and I will not ask her to do so - is that in late 2003, early 2004, he discovered a secret ledger. He leaves aside the political reaction or otherwise to that. This goes into the system and, he asserts, is either not investigated at all or is inadequately investigated. That is at the heart of this. It is very important, without naming names or giving any details, to establish if the information landed on the Revenue's desk and, while it was read with interest, was considered already to have been known and officials were on top of it. Alternatively, did the information land on the Revenue's desk and was considered irrelevant or failing to cut the mustard? Was it disregarded for whatever reason?

Ms Josephine Feehily

No, absolutely not. It was not disregarded. It landed on our desk, to use that phrase, and was examined. Every single item was examined. At the conclusion of that examination, because we had much more extensive powers than he had or has as an authorised officer and because we had already secured very large volumes of documentation, it did not add to the list of cases. It may have helped by validating or supplying some additional insights and information for those cases, but we had established the case base already.

The other piece I need to make clear regarding information - and I use the word "information" rather than to refer necessarily to books and documents - is that the officer was giving us information informally right through those years before the documentation arrived. We had information. We had a case base based on information, our research, High Court orders, High Court inspectors and so on. That case base was pretty well settled by the third quarter of 2003.

He passed on this information. From Ms Feehily's point of view, it was adequately researched and it assisted in the established inquiries.

Ms Josephine Feehily

It assisted us, definitely.

It did not add any new additional names.

Ms Josephine Feehily

It did not add any new additional cases to the project.

Were any of the cases that were forwarded in the secret ledger disproved or set aside or considered to be inaccurate or irrelevant?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Every one of them was examined and any one that was irrelevant would obviously have been set aside. I am not drawing a line through a narrow case group into a conclusion here. I am simply assuring the committee that every case and every piece of information he gave us was examined and followed through.

Is it not astonishing given how closely he worked with Revenue, that he comes across something at that point in time which he regards as very new, as very secret and a new ledger but the Revenue said it was not so new and not so secret? That is the central point in his submission. That is his interpretation. Even accepting that the Revenue has broader powers, that troubles me. The Revenue had this level of contact with this individual which, as Ms Feehily has indicated just now, was not just by way of official documentation and reports, but an interactive communication between officials and him. We are at the disadvantage of not having direct testimony from the official in question. It is half of a conversation.

It strikes me as very odd. Notwithstanding that it was a large number of cases, in relative terms it was a small sample of people and entities engaging in this practice. I would have thought that people working so intimately with these issues would have been very conversant with what was what and who was who. These people were consumed by the issue and tracking it. Broadly speaking, they would have had a shared analysis of the scope of it. For an official like him to pass that on in late 2003 or early 2004 and say this was new information, very secret and hitherto unknown at the point at which the Revenue says all of the case base was established and for the Revenue to say there was nothing new in it, jars with me. It strikes me as inconsistent and curious.

Ms Josephine Feehily

All I can repeat is that everything we received from the officer was examined and followed through wherever it took us. Having engaged on it in relation to his 2011 dossier, I can confirm on a personal level that the officers in question assured me there was nothing new in that dossier because I was there. I have had the same assurance from officers in relation to earlier dossiers. Just to repeat for the Deputy, as she obviously has a particular list in mind but I am not commenting on any subset of any lists or anything and need to be very careful in my response, I assure her that there was no question of ignoring any material or any information. It is not in our nature.

If there had been something new in the line of new cases, we would have pursued them.

I am conscious of my time. We have discussed the issue of the tax amnesty and that Revenue had a view, an instinct or a commentary on that. Did Revenue have a view, an instinct or a commentary on the closing down of that inquiry in 2004? In 2003, the very secret ledger was discovered, which Ms Feehily says was not so secret. It was made known to the powers that be in spring 2004, but by July 2004 the investigation was closed. That was a cause of comment in the Dáil at the time. If I recall correctly, Deputy Rabbitte questioned quite vigorously the closing of the inquiry. It was obviously a subject of commentary. Did Revenue have a view on it? Does Ms Feehily recall? I am asking her to stretch back into her-----

Ms Josephine Feehily

I do not recall a view, no.

My final question is specific and relates to a short report that the official made to the Minister of the day in April 2008. It related to a payment of $400,000 by Alcan Packaging Limited made on 23 June 1983 into Ansbacher deposits. The official says that, because at the time of the discovery of this matter his investigation had been shut down, he was not in a position to get to the bottom of that payment, who it was for and for what purpose it was made. Did Revenue establish those facts in respect of that money?

Ms Josephine Feehily

That is a named taxpayer. I cannot comment. I can tell the Deputy that we received all of the authorised officer's reports and we followed through. We examined them all and we followed through. I can go no further than that.

We have a piece of substantiating material in the dossier to support the fact of the lodgement of that substantial amount of money in 1983.

Do not continue down that line, Deputy. It is a named entity. The Deputy has done it. I do not want to pursue that. I think Ms Feehily will not answer anyway.

The great difficulty in which we find ourselves while trying to untangle these matters is that Ms Feehily and her officials are restricted, as are we. It does not take from the seriousness of what is alleged. They are only allegations. Nonetheless, I thank the witnesses for their presence and co-operation.

Have individuals who worked with the bank been interviewed by Revenue?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Individuals who worked in certain financial institutions were interviewed by Revenue very early. I referenced that when I was explaining how we came to have had a lot of information in the early part of the 2000s. By the time that we came to the middle - 2003 or thereabouts - we had already interviewed employees and had a lot of books and records. I really need to be careful not to go much further on that.

I do not want Ms Feehily to go there. I just want to understand whether Revenue set out to and interviewed individuals.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes.

Ms Feehily does not want to comment on this matter, but it is mentioned in the letter of 4 November 2014 that we received. The letter refers to the significant effort that went into the report, the addendum report, the witness statement referred to above, correspondence between the undersigned - that is Mr. Ryan - and a variety of parties and a very large number of copy documents obtained by him in the course of his investigation. He is suggesting that there is evidence and documentation to support what is contained in the dossier that has been made available. Since that has been stated, does it mean that Revenue, now knowing about it, can interview the individual and bring these contentious matters to a close?

Ms Josephine Feehily

The individual being the officer?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Certainly, the-----

This is 2014 and he still-----

Ms Josephine Feehily

No, I understand.

What is the procedure?

Ms Josephine Feehily

There was a time in 2005 or 2006 when we were seeking evidence where we engaged with his Minister to make sure that he had a legal basis for continuing to engage with us. There was an exchange of information with the Minister asking the Minister to make sure that we got everything that was in the power and possession of the authorised officer. As I said in my remarks, there was a High Court order subsequently to make sure that things could be properly given to us. If there is something else, I am sure we can create an environment where it can be properly given to us, but I am saying that everything we have got-----

I understand all of that.

Ms Josephine Feehily

-----has absolutely been examined and followed through.

I acknowledge that Revenue does not have the dossier. However, it has been stated within the dossier that there is evidence to support the statements that are being made. As such, I am asking whether Revenue has the power to ask the individual to be let see the proof.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Can I give the Chairman the answer, which is "probably", based on what is a somewhat hypothetical conversation on my part? We have extensive powers. If there is evidence that we have not received before-----

But Ms Feehily will not know that until she sees it.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I will not, no. I am, as I have said from the beginning, at a disadvantage here.

But Ms Feehily has to find out.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I have to reflect. I have to consider what to do next.

With all of the High Court orders and so on that Revenue will have received-----

Ms Josephine Feehily

I have to reflect.

Okay. Will Ms Feehily confer with this-----

Ms Josephine Feehily

The Chairman has an assertion that I do not,-----

Ms Josephine Feehily

-----so I do have to reflect.

We are going to ask the Minister about this again, but Ms Feehily has heard what members have said. Perhaps she might confirm to us in writing after the meeting what steps she has taken or intends to take after she gives the matter due consideration.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Absolutely.

I will be brief. Ms Feehily and her colleagues are welcome. I will raise one point because people are getting confused. There is the authorised officer, but Ms Feehily referred regularly in her speech to the High Court inspector's report.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes.

Some people might not get the distinction between the two because one flowed from the other. Revenue had to go to the High Court to get orders to gain access to the documents produced by the High Court inspector. Who was the inspector? Whose report was it?

Ms Josephine Feehily

My colleague will find their names for the Deputy in a minute. They were a group of people - judges and so on - who were appointed.

Why did Revenue need to go to the High Court? Was this information not forthcoming from it?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Here are the names: His Honour, Mr. Justice Seán O'Leary; Ms Noreen Mackey, BL; Mr. Paul Rowan, FCA; and Mr. Michael Cush, SC.

There was an authorised officer and then the High Court inspectors. To Ms Feehily's knowledge, would the High Court inspectors have covered much of the ground that the authorised officer did or was it a different project altogether?

Ms Josephine Feehily

No, it was not a different project. I am not an expert in company law. With that reservation, the authorised officer had a limited range of authorities and powers - obviously, his reports cannot be published - to seek books and documents and to look for explanations. As I understand it, on foot of the authorised officer's report, the Minister of the day applied to the High Court to appoint inspectors who could go further.

In other words-----

Ms Josephine Feehily

I quote from their report. They point out:

From the outset, the Inspectors determined that they would report to the Court only on the basis of their own work and not upon the basis of the work of others. It is worth noting also that the powers available to Mr Ryan as an Authorised Officer pursuant to the Companies Act, 1990 were confined essentially to seeking books and documents and requiring explanations of same. The powers of the Inspectors are considerably more extensive.

They say, further in their report, that the powers of the Revenue Commissioners were more extensive still. That is important in explaining the three layers and also all of the overlaps.

This in-between layer probably just got a little lost in the public arena. As a layman, it looks to me as if the authorised officer did what I would call a preliminary report. I use the word "preliminary" to mean informal. The report was presented to a Minister or other person and the Minister then decided, on the basis of the information provided, that he needed to appoint High Court inspectors to carry out a more thorough report with much greater legal powers to report to the courts. Ms Feehily mentioned those eminent people. I accept she might not be an expert in this regard, but would the information provided to the High Court inspectors have included the information the authorised officer had, which led to the appointment of the High Court inspectors in the first place?

Ms Josephine Feehily

It certainly included a lot of it and the overlap between the cases was reasonably significant. The High Court inspectors produced a report which we initially applied to get, but they published it. There were 179 cases in the report.

Why did the Revenue Commissioners seek a High Court order?

Ms Josephine Feehily

We went to the High Court for the underlying documents. What was interesting about it, which I guess is why I referenced it, is that it would have broken the law. High Court orders are all held in camera but the case was held in open court over three days. It was a very considerable judgment. It took nearly two years before we got the perfected judgment and the documents that came to us under that process all had to be vetted by the Courts Service before we could receive them. It was very interesting.

Of the cases held in public, was the documentation handed over subject to legal privilege?

Ms Josephine Feehily

No, the underlying documents came to us under court order, under privilege.

I am trying to understand the situation. We had the original first report by the authorised officer. There is a suggestion that matters were not followed up. Several eminent High Court inspectors were involved and there were open court proceedings on the matter and a file was sent to the Revenue Commissioners. I got no sense of that from the documentation that was sent to me and other members. Is Ms Feehily fairly satisfied that Revenue has captured and caught all of the money?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Does Deputy Fleming mean in the Ansbacher projects?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Apart from the six cases that are still open and that we are still chasing.

I am caught for time but I wish to ask Ms Feehily one or two more questions. She will understand that the ten-year rule would cause public annoyance if people were to think the Revenue cannot prosecute after ten years. We regularly hear of the Department of Social Protection chasing people for money they wrongly claimed, even if they went abroad, they were followed up when they came back. Ms Feehily will say ten years is the norm, and while I understand the Revenue does not want to leave the books open forever, but as an elected representative my view is that just because something was well covered for ten years people should not get off scot free. That seems to be the current legal position. I advise you, Chairman, that in our recommendations I will recommend that rule should be changed. I accept that is probably a policy issue on which Ms Feehily cannot comment.

Ms Josephine Feehily

From a practical point of view, one must understand that the entire taxpayer population would be affected.

But we see every day in the court-----

Ms Josephine Feehily

SMEs and businesses might have a view on retaining books of records and so on.

That is fine. We are talking about cases of evasion and criminal activity. People are prosecuted every day in court for crimes they committed many years ago.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I am not sure Deputy Fleming sees social welfare cases going back ten years, because my advice is that this is quite a high standard for what are called regulatory-type offences, as opposed to other areas of jurisprudence that go back further.

I will put it to Ms Feehily this way; for other criminal activities the ten-year rule does not necessarily apply. We see people in court for offences committed ten or 20 years ago. In some cases the crimes were committed when the individuals were juveniles but there seems to be a cut-off when it comes to prosecutions for financial misdemeanours. People might have a difficulty with the fact that financial crime has a curtain beyond which one cannot go back but that does not necessarily apply to every other law in the State. In fairness to the Revenue Commissioners, we need to say this because the impression I have given is probably accurate enough, but people might think that is the full picture - my understanding is that just because one cannot prosecute, it does not mean one cannot collect.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes.

Am I correct in saying that if one uncovers something and it relates to a case more than ten years ago, while one might not have a power to prosecute, the Revenue has the power to make an attachment order or to send in the sheriff to collect the money and ultimately, the matter can be addressed through the estate of the person in the same way as the Department of Social Protection? While the Revenue might not be able to get a criminal prosecution, it can still collect taxpayers' money by means of the methods I outlined. The ten-year rule does not apply to those measures.

Ms Josephine Feehily

In order to send in sheriffs and make attachment orders, we must have a crystallised debt. That comes at the end of the process. If there is not crystallised debt, the pursuit in terms of sheriffs and attachments does not arise. The first thing we must do is establish the debt. In recent years, the norm period for us to look back is four years. It is the same length of time as the normal period for which taxpayers can make claims for repayments and so on. To go back further than that we must be able to show fraud and neglect and that is a high bar, but we do get over that bar and in the cases settled in many of our special investigations and in particular in the case of Ansbacher accounts, there are cases that were settled with the estates. A significant number of people are dead and their estates have paid taxes and interest.

I would expect that. To confirm what Ms Feehily said, just because Revenue cannot prosecute people does not mean it cannot collect the money, even ultimately from the estate.

Ms Josephine Feehily

No, absolutely. As I said earlier, there is a point where one barrier just becomes so insurmountable. Our job is to collect money, and so we switch to all of the other routes available to us and every one of them has been and will be followed through to the bitter end. One of my predecessors used the phrase in this room "We will stick to them like limpets". The evidence shows that that is what we have done.

The person concerned signed the letter as the authorised officer. Is he still the authorised officer?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I have no idea. Do you mean, Chairman, the authorised officer in the Department?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I do not know.

Does that title end at some stage?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I do not know. As I said to Deputy Fleming, I am not a company law expert.

We must find that out.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I was using that phrase for convenience.

Is the court order outdated? Does it have a beginning and an end?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I do not believe it does. It would specify what we could get, so it was probably drawn in relation to particular documents. We needed a safe process in order that we could get them from him. They were microfilm records that he held and we needed to inspect them. I am sure the court order was specific. Any court order would be precisely drawn in relation to particular documents. In that case, what we were looking for were the microfilm documents so the order would have said that.

Was that specifically just the microfilm documents?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes.

I welcome Ms Feehily and her officials. I am delighted to be back on this very important committee. The fact is that the authorised officer was stood down in 2004 by the then Minister. Given that the report goes up to 2011, one would imagine that given the understanding, concern, respect and commitment of a top civil servant and that only six of the 283 cases are outstanding, in order to continue the work in the past seven years one wonders whether the situation could not have been resolved by means of a round-table discussion with the authorised officer, even by successive Ministers and everybody involved in this very notable case going back to the 1980s and 1990s?

Given that this concerned the Ansbacher cases, it amazes me that this matter was not dealt with during the seven year commitment made by that civil servant. Is it not the case that the focus of Mr. Ryan's concern is the 700 entities and not the six outstanding cases? Ms Feehily stated, "The number of connected entities consisting of trusts, associated companies, offshore entities, etc., related to the 289 substantive cases was nearly 700". What does Ms Feehily mean by "related"? What is her definition of "related"? It seems to be a huge amount of companies, practically 100% of related companies. Ms Feehily mentioned there was over €2 billion collected. I am new to this matter, but it would appear to me that Mr. Ryan's concern is not focused on the six unfinished cases but rather the 700 related entities, which would be in this reference book.

Ms Josephine Feehily

To be clear, when I say "related", I was simply including that detail to show the complexity of the project. If we refer to 289 cases, a person might wonder what we have been doing for the last umpteen years. When I say "connected", there are situations which were explained and set out to some degree in the High Court inspectors' report. Typically, a case would have a person, perhaps a family member, a discretionary trust or a special purpose vehicle and maybe another trust. That is what I mean when I refer to "related" entities. The first thing we had to do was connect them all and they became one case. I assure the Deputy that the entire 700 entities have been connected to the 289 cases. They have been investigated, examined and followed through on. If my language was not precise enough, I apologise for that. There is no loose thread in relation to the entities that were connected to these cases, every single one of them. In fact, breaking some of those, to get behind trusts, would have been one of the reasons we had to go to the High Court.

Could that be one of the reasons for the officer's concern? He may have a concern that the 700 entities may not have been subject to the full rigour of the investigation given the complexity and nature of the cases. To a degree, the authorised officer with the work of the Revenue, I noticed there was no concern here with the authorised officer being unhappy with the Director of Corporate Enforcement. One would imagine that there would be a register of complaint with the Director of Corporate Enforcement and likewise with the Garda Síochána, if this is something that is criminal by nature and if there was tax evasion by entities outside of the 289 cases. Would there be different names? I am not asking for any names to be identified, because I think what happened in the Dáil yesterday was wrong. However, it appears to me, from my examination of the file, that Mr. Ryan's concern is the 289 cases and the complexity of the remaining 700 entities.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I do not know what Mr. Ryan's concern is. In terms of the committee's relationship with Revenue, down the years, this is not the first time there has been extensive discussion. There was discussion between this committee and some of my predecessors, when these issues were live. I assure the Deputy that every single piece of information we received from the officer and his Ministers was examined and followed through on, wherever it took us. I cannot comment on his dissatisfaction. As Deputy Deasy pointed out, if he had asked us, I could only have given him answers that would have been in the same vein as those I am giving to this committee. I could have given him assurances that everything was taken seriously, researched and checked. However, I could not have shown him the tax files, during a roundtable discussion or otherwise.

The Deputy referenced the Garda Síochána. It may be helpful to the committee, because it was not followed up by anyone else, to note that during this period Revenue officials gave 20 witness statements and 15 sets of books and records to the Garda Síochána, in relation to the Garda Síochána's investigations. We have engaged fully with the other agencies. We have a close working relationship with the Director of Corporate Enforcement, as a matter of course. His office did not exist at the beginning of this process but once it came into place, we got to know the officer and we now have memorandums of understanding, MOUs, in place. We work closely with all of the agencies. In this particular set of cases, we have shared considerable information. My officials also took part in meetings with the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP, in the early part of this investigation. We did not confine our work to our taxes prosecutions. We assisted consideration of other prosecutions where we could, including the provision of extensive witness statements. Twenty witness statements is fairly extensive.

The fact the file was referred to the Director of Corporate Enforcement, the Garda and the Director of Public Prosecutions is very important.

Ms Josephine Feehily

We did not refer any file to the Director of Corporate Enforcement. We have a relationship with that office.

What do you mean by a relationship?

Ms Josephine Feehily

We have memorandums of understanding. We work closely with the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement, ODCE. Every year we refer cases arising from liquidations to the ODCE and ask that office to follow through on restricting directors and so on. We have an ongoing relationship. The office did not exist when this work started. Therefore, I am making that distinction. There was nowhere to send the file because the office did not exist at the beginning. In the context of a criminal investigation for prosecution by the Garda Síochána, Revenue officials have supplied it with 20 witness statements and books and records in relation to 15 cases.

What of the Director of Public Prosecutions?

Ms Josephine Feehily

There were meetings with the Director of Public Prosecutions which my officials attended along with officials from the Garda Síochána during which options for prosecution were under discussion. Clearly, decisions on prosecution are a matter for the DPP and not Revenue.

It was a decision of Government to appoint Mr. Ryan as the special investigator on this file. He was appointed by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to check out the Ansbacher files. In light of the fact that he was a very senior official to get that appointment, that there was due regard, concern and respect demonstrated by him in the conscientious manner in which he carried out the work, and that he still continued with the file up to 2011, it was remiss of all of the bodies involved that there was not closure on this file and, without breaching confidentiality on names and payments to Revenue, it was remiss that there was not an agreement in place between all of the key stakeholders, that would have allowed him to put this into the public domain without requiring the use of the protection of the whistleblower legislation.

Ms Josephine Feehily

All I can do is assure the Deputy that if Mr. Ryan had sought assurances from Revenue, I would have given the assurances to him using the same language I have used in giving them to the committee.

Apart from the issue of assurances, given the fact that he was appointed by a Minister to the role of special investigator on the Ansbacher accounts, working with the vested interests of the State, and having regard to his responsibility and duty of care and the fact that he, as a conscientious public servant, felt the need to put this matter on the record, for his own satisfaction, he having been commissioned to carry out this report and having been stood down in 2004, and he having continued with the work and since sent two reports, to which little or no regard was given, was he not due more than that and more than the courtesy shown to this committee?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Might I answer the question this way? I can assure the Deputy that as far as Revenue is concerned, we had very significant and helpful engagement with the authorised officer.

I have no view or knowledge on which to form a view about what happened in his own Department, why he was appointed, and what happened towards the ending of his role. I have no information on which to have a view about that.

Deputy Fleming's point is an important one to repeat. His role was narrow. It was prescribed in the Companies Act. It clearly needed further work because High Court inspectors were subsequently appointed.

Ms Josephine Feehily

It then needed further work in our case from High Court orders to try to pursue the tax.

In terms of those years of informal meetings with the authorised officer, my officials deserve recognition also for the persistence and resilience with which they have worked these cases. They will be disappointed that those engagements were not evident to Mr. Ryan from those meetings but if he had something to say to us it is a pity that he did not say it. I am taking the Deputy's word that there was an issue and as I have agreed with the Chairman, I now have to reflect on what to do next.

If the Deputy is asking me to comment on how we could have given closure, I think we could have given him the assurances that I am giving this committee-----

Ms Josephine Feehily

-----that we followed through on all of his work and all of his documents. They were examined and followed through wherever they took us, and I am happy to give him those assurances now.

I appreciate that, and I have no doubt that Revenue did a conscientious and outstanding job, but in retrospect one can see that in terms of his case and the amount of work that was carried out by him, which initiated so many other inquiries, and his status in his own Department, it is unfortunate that there was not a round-table discussion on it that would have enabled it to be brought to a certain level. In light of the fact that there are only six remaining cases, unless he has a concern about the 700 cases, the other entities that-----

Ms Josephine Feehily

If that is the concern I want to assure the committee, because that is where my relationship is, and the Comptroller and Auditor General, that all of those 700 cases were connected into the 289. They were not cases. They were entities. They were structures. They were trusts. They were connected to the cases and they were all examined, investigated and followed through as far as we could possibly do so.

I thank Ms Feehily and wish her very well in her new appointment.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I am not appointed yet.

I thank Ms Feehily and her team for attending. I appreciate that she has been as open as she can be in her commentary to us because if I understand the legal advice we were given, I thought her answers might have been much more restrictive.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I need to confine my answers to process but I am happy to give as much information as I can about the process.

I appreciate that. Rather than going through the process again because most of the important questions have been asked, I will ask some related questions. Does Ms Feehily believe the ten-year rule relating to prosecutions should be abandoned and, if not, why does she think it is adequate?

Ms Josephine Feehily

My advice is that even without it, common law would suggest that longer than ten years would be a very big barrier. Clearly, it is a policy matter for consideration, and Deputy Fleming has already made a suggestion in that regard. If it is changed by the Oireachtas we will follow through and implement it.

Part of the reason I asked the question is that about a year ago I did some work examining the extent of white collar crime in Ireland, which would be more than what would relate to Ms Feehily's work, and it was disturbing in the sense that the number of prosecutions in that area were declining. I wonder about the approach of the Revenue Commissioners towards seeking a prosecution. From what Ms Feehily said earlier, it would send information to the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP, if there was to be and, ultimately, it would be the DPP's decision rather than Revenue's decision as to whether a prosecution could take place. How many cases like that per year would Revenue send to the DPP?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I can give the Deputy some current information but in any given year we would have 120 or 150 cases, depending on the year, under particular investigation for criminal prosecution in a pipeline, and they would move through the various stages. We have to be very careful that we do not arbitrarily select cases for prosecution so we have a rigorous process of an admissions committee that determines whether a case is admitted to the prosecution stream because then it has a serious impact on how we approach a case after that in terms of cautioned interviews, evidence gathering and so on.

So it would take-----

Ms Josephine Feehily

Last year we secured 35 convictions for serious evasion between taxes and duties. We referred 15 to the DPP. At the end of last year there were 99 open for investigation - ongoing. There were 50 with our solicitors getting ready to go to the DPP. There were two under consideration by the DPP. There were 20 cases in 2013 where the DPP issued directions but they had not reached the courts. There were 32 cases before the courts, and one bench warrant. Those are the 2013 figures to give the Deputy some sense of the kind of activity that is there.

Last year we also secured prison terms in a number of cases ranging from one year to two years and so on.

How many cases would have led to prison sentences?

Ms Josephine Feehily

There were ten convictions in the tax space as opposed to duty, with custodial sentences imposed in seven of them. Four were fully suspended. One was partially suspended, and in two cases community service hours were imposed and so on. There were also fines.

On the duty side, there were 25 convictions in 2013. Sentences were imposed in 15, 12 of which were suspended. Actual prison terms between the two, therefore, were six cases - three for tax and three for duty evasion in 2013.

I can give the Deputy 2014 figures if that would help.

Would the duty evasion be avoiding customs and such matters?

Ms Josephine Feehily

"Avoiding" is a different word.

Or evasion; my apologies.

Ms Josephine Feehily

It would be evasion but it would be criminal as well. We are talking about fuel laundering and serious criminal activity regarding cigarettes. It is not customs; it is excise.

Does Ms Feehily believe she has sufficient resources to pursue those kinds of cases?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Revenue never has enough resources, as Mr. Quigley will confirm. Revenue is always looking for resources. In the past six years our resources went down by about 14% in terms of head count but, more important, and I have said this before in the committee so it is not new, we lost a huge amount of corporate knowledge and experience in the past five or six years because there were various opportunities for people to leave, and some of the people I referred to in my opening statement who are retired.

Can it not choose-----

Ms Josephine Feehily

However, I can tell the Deputy that next year we will have a little more so that is good.

Is Ms Feehily not in the fortunate position where she can probably argue that extra resources to Revenue yields to the State multiples of the money spent on it?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes.

It is rather different from, say, the Departments of Health, Education and Skills or whatever where the resources are a drain on the State, even though it is worth spending.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I have made that argument, and we discussed it here last year. In the first comprehensive review of expenditure that was done in 2011, which is published, we indicated, and I do not have the numbers in my head now, an additional resource on the audit side. We committed to bringing in additional money. I do not want to sound as if I am complaining. The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform had a difficult job to do in recent years in balancing the books. However, I can assure the Deputy that every year we fought the good fight for additional resources.

We did manage to get sanction for niche specialists just recently. This was referred to in the Minister's budget speech. We have received sanction to recruit experts for international tax, particularly transfer pricing, so we make that argument every year. This year, they listened and we are going to get a little bit extra in our budget for next year.

Is Ms Feehily happy that there are sufficient resources between the Revenue Commissioners and the Director of Public Prosecution to pursue prosecutions where they are necessary?

Ms Josephine Feehily

We would use resources if we had more. There is no point in saying I would not use more if I had more.

So I will take it that as a "No" and that it might be able to pursue more prosecutions if it had more resources

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes, and more audits and investigations - more of everything.

I have a dual concern. One is to bring in tax that should be due to the State. The other is that there is a definite impression out there that is not based on unreality that people involved in white-collar crime have a much better chance of getting away with it than those involved in the normal petty crimes of breaking and entering, shoplifting and so on. It is very important for the stability of the State that people who are trying to evade tax are pursued to the absolute limits.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I can assure the Deputy that we have an active prosecution programme. We were discussing prosecutions earlier. Revenue was completely re-organised around 2000. We established a dedicated division for prosecutions and special investigations. The current head of that division is Ms Breda Ruddle, who is here with me. We have an active programme every year and I have read out some of the numbers relating to last year of cases moving through the pipeline. We are getting cases to court and securing convictions. We are doing that across the community. Evidence is a problem and will always be an issue for us but we are not shy about prosecuting. I can assure the Deputy of that.

We can return to those general issues of taxation.

I have the Chairman's guidance on this. I wanted to ask a question about the accounts for the year. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the Ansbacher business. Does the Chairman wish to deal with this on another occasion?

We will do that on another occasion.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I probably would not have known the answer because I did not prepare for the entire accounts.

I wanted to ask Ms Feehily about corporation tax but I will leave that for another day.

Did Deputy McDonald want to make a comment?

I have a short question relating to process. Let us imagine somebody - either the Department or the authorised officer - passed a dossier or file to Ms Feehily in which I was named in whatever form as the holder or someone with beneficial ownership of one of these accounts. What is the process? Clearly, Revenue has to make contact with me at some level to advise as part of the investigation or to verify, prove or disprove. Could Ms Feehily take us through that process?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Sure.

What happens? Revenue gets the information. What is the next thing that happens in respect of people alleged to be involved?

Ms Josephine Feehily

The next thing that happens is that their tax returns are reviewed.

Are they made aware of that fact?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Not necessarily. If the information is already known to us and has already been managed, handled or engaged with, there is nothing to add. If the information given to us is confirmed in the person's tax return, there is nothing for us to do. The first thing in respect of any information that comes to us from anywhere is that the person looking at it looks at the tax return and looks for a mismatch. If there is no mismatch, there is nothing to do.

How would that hold up in respect of Ansbacher? Let us imagine that in the initial tranche of information, I came to Revenue's attention and I was to be scrutinised or there was to be some form of assessment or investigation. At what point does Revenue make contact with me to alert me to this fact?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I need to be careful. I am talking about a typical case. I am not talking about Ansbacher and I am not talking about lists. I am talking about a typical case where information comes to Revenue that prima facie is deemed worthy of a look. An inspector will look at it having regard to the information we already know. If something is a mismatch that needs to be followed through, we will follow through. Sometimes our first port of call might be to verify third-party information and then it is sorted. There is no automatic line that says we get information. We gets lots of information every day and it has to be looked at from a fairness point of view. The idea of putting somebody into a Revenue process without a reason would be just wrong and unfair, apart from the fact that I would not have the resources, as I discussed with Deputy Dowds. The information is assessed by reference to what we already know on the record and if there is something to be followed up, it is followed up and if there is nothing to be followed up, it is not followed up. That is the best way I can put it.

To move from the general to the specific, in respect of Ansbacher and wherever Revenue got the information from, if an entity or person such as myself featured in some information Revenue received, when would Revenue contact me? Standard procedures, anomalies or queries around people's tax affairs in the normal cut and thrust of things are one thing. Revenue has a specific Ansbacher team, focus and project. Let us imagine my name was put in-----

Ms Josephine Feehily

I think the Deputy is trying to get me to comment on particular cases and I do not think I should do so.

I want to know what the procedure is. At what stage does Revenue contact-----

She would never do that.

Ms Josephine Feehily

What does the Chairman mean by "she would never do that"? I described the process as best I can. There are lists and names floating around and I am not going to discuss a process that might leave me exposed under the legislation to a criminal charge that I inadvertently made some apparent inference or some inference could be drawn from a remark I made. I want to keep very far back. I am not talking about Ansbacher.

We are here and the entire meeting was on the premise of Ansbacher. I am saying that if last year, two years ago or ten years ago, my name appeared on Ms Feehily's desk as somebody referenced or against whom an allegation was made, at what point would Revenue contact me and alert me to that fact? That is what I want to know.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Perhaps never.

Is that consistent with a full investigation? Is interfacing with the person concerned not part of a thorough investigation? I would have thought that this would be the case.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Not necessarily.

I propose to leave the account open for the moment until we get further information we must collect in this regard. We will have to ask the Department for some information, which was outlined earlier. We will send a transcript to Mr. Ryan because his name has been mentioned and under the Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Act 2013, he is entitled to that and also if he wishes to make a comment on it. In respect of the cases sent to the Garda, I propose that we send a transcript to the Garda Commissioner to determine the up-to-date position. I will ask the clerk to review the transcript in respect of anyone else who has been mentioned or to ensure that we have any information that was asked for but which Ms Feehily was not in a position to give us this morning for consideration again. I thank Ms Feehily and her officials for coming here. She is retiring from Revenue and moving on to the Garda authority. She has not yet been appointed but it has been mentioned in the media so it must be true. I wish her well. I understand that Mr. O'Shaughnessy may also be retiring and I wish him well and thank him for his co-operation with the committee during the various hearings.

The witnesses withdrew.
The committee adjourned at 1.30 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 11 December 2014.
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