We will move on to chapter 12 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report on the accounts of the public services for 2016, which relates to the management of ancillary services at the Garda Training College, Templemore. This provides the committee with an opportunity to examine further matters which we already reported on in some detail in July in a report entitled Examination of matters in relation to Financial Procedures at Garda College, Templemore. It will be important for us to get an update on progress to address the issues and to be updated on other related audits being conducted into matters at the college. Joining us for this session is Mr. Niall Kelly, head of the Garda internal audit section; Ms Anne Barry and Mr. George Trimble from the Department of Justice and Equality; and Mr. Martin Bourke and Mr. Seamus O'Neill from the Office of Public Works. We have already had an opening statement from the acting Garda Commissioner for the entire meeting, so I call the Comptroller and Auditor General to make his opening statement.
Chapter 12 - Management of Ancillary Services at the Garda Training College
Mr. Seamus McCarthy
My report on the management of ancillary services at the Garda College follows from the committee's examination and report earlier this year, which dealt comprehensively with concerns around the operation of internal audit, oversight and governance, internal structures and organisational culture in An Garda Síochána. The report does not revisit those matters. Instead it examines the operation, funding and accounting for ancillary services at the Garda College and the management of State-owned land acquired by the Office of Public Works for Garda College purposes. In addition to the college's core training operations, a variety of ancillary services and social activities have operated within the college campus, mainly for the use and benefit of trainees. These include the restaurant, bar and shop, and a number of college clubs and societies.
The operations and costs of the Garda College are administered in a similar manner to those of Garda districts. Most expenditure, including pay, equipment and capital costs, is managed and controlled centrally. Local management is responsible for expenditure incurred locally using funds advanced for that purpose. In addition to the Department-sanctioned public bank accounts used for the operation of the college’s core activities, members will recall that over 40 accounts with financial institutions had been operated, relating to the college's ancillary services. As of August 2017, a total of nine accounts were operating, including three public bank accounts for funding of core activities; two accounts controlled by college management for ancillary services, that is, one each for the restaurant and shop; and four club or society accounts managed by the respective memberships. A summary of the bank accounts is presented in figure 12.3 of the report.
The college's restaurant is the biggest element of the ancillary services, with a turnover of over €1.1 million in 2016. The restaurant was not formally established as a company but had its own accounting records and a separate tax number. The independently audited accounts for the restaurant indicate that up to 2008, the restaurant generated annual surpluses, with around €2 million in accumulated reserves at the end of 2008. Garda recruitment activity was suspended in the aftermath of the financial crisis. As a result, over the period from 2009 to 2016, the restaurant incurred trading losses totalling €1.95 million, which all but eliminated the reserves. The restaurant was primarily funded through retained living allowances, which were paid on a capitation basis to the restaurant for periods when recruits were attending the college. The funding model for the restaurant was changed in May 2017. It is now being run on a net cost basis, calculated from the cost of staff wages and restaurant supplies and taking account of till receipts. A record of the number of recruits in attendance in the college during each payment period is also provided to the finance directorate for information and correlation purposes. This is intended to avoid surpluses occurring in the account in the future.
For comparative purposes, we also examined the arrangements in place in a number of other public bodies that provide restaurant and canteen services on-site for staff and other users. These include the Defence Forces, a number of Departments, third level colleges and the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission. Different service models are in place, with some providing services directly and other providing services on an outsourced or contracted basis, procured under a competitive process. The models used are summarised in figure 12.5 of the report. We found that An Garda Síochána did not have a clear framework in place for management of the college restaurant operations. Other bodies have formal arrangements in place that set out the governance structure and accountability arrangements, and how any surpluses generated may be used. I have recommended that a formal framework be put in place for the management and control of ancillary services. The Accounting Officer has agreed to that recommendation.
The other main issue dealt with in the report relates to the management of land at the college, all of which was acquired by the Office of Public Works and made available to An Garda Síochána.
The report outlines the complex legal situation that has arisen regarding the 37-acre site adjacent to the college that is used to provide a golf course and the process for acquisition of a large property at Dromard, 6 km from the college, in 2006 which was intended for development of a Garda training centre of excellence that has not yet been provided. In both cases, there are concerns that the approach taken may not have achieved good value for money. In particular, we found no evidence that An Garda Síochána involved OPW in advising on the granting, in 2000, of a licence for access to the golf course lands to a local club, no evidence that use of the golf course land was considered for college development purposes when An Garda Síochána and the Department sought additional land to increase the training capacity of the college, no evidence that the purchase of the Dromard land and transfer of control over it to An Garda Síochána has been underpinned by any formal agreement or clarification of responsibilities and no evidence that OPW followed up or monitored the extent to which the Dromard farm was used for the purposes for which it was acquired, or that its value was otherwise protected or optimised. I have made a number of recommendations in respect of property management that the Accounting Officers of An Garda Síochána and the Office of Public Works have accepted.
As already indicated, this session must be completed by 1 p.m. at the latest because the acting Commissioner must attend a Policing Authority meeting in the early afternoon. This is the third topic to be discussed today so I ask members to be conscious of giving other members of the committee an opportunity to speak. I will start with Deputy Burke, who will have 15 minutes. All other members will have ten minutes. One way or another, the meeting will end at 1 p.m.
I thank the witnesses for attending. In the context of the internal audit and subsequent reports and discussions at the Committee of Public Accounts, we were advised that there were five tax numbers in operation in An Garda Síochána - one for An Garda Síochána, one for Garda College Sportsfield Company, one for the Garda College restaurant, one for the Garda College shop and one for the Garda College bar. Is An Garda Síochána in possession of tax clearance certificates for each of those numbers?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I cannot say we have tax clearance certificates. For example, An Garda Síochána would, by necessity, have a tax clearance certificate per se so-----
As a public body, it should.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I am saying that I do not know off hand. What I can say is that, in my opinion, the entities referenced are tax compliant at this point if that-----
Each entity?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I believe so. The Comptroller and Auditor General made reference to the fact that we made a voluntary disclosure to the Revenue Commissioners in respect of those elements so, in that context, clearly, there are ongoing discussions between ourselves and the Revenue Commissioners on that-----
So that is not finalised?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
It is not finalised. We have sent material to the Revenue Commissioners and are awaiting their response.
So it may be difficult to get a tax clearance certificate for that particular number if the voluntary disclosure is still open?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
Yes, I accept that.
So the answer to that question is "No". Are any of those five tax numbers closed or did An Garda Síochána give notice to close any of them?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
The intention is that the only tax number that would be relevant going into 2018 would relate to the main Garda Síochána tax number so that those relating to the bar, restaurant and shop, for example, would not be in operation next year. That is the intention of the organisation.
Obviously, I would imagine that An Garda Síochána would have to get the agreement of the Revenue Commissioners to terminate every one of those tax numbers.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
We are in that ongoing discussion as we speak. To be clear, what I am primarily saying is that the activities associated with those tax numbers would be terminated this year. That is probably the critical point in this regard.
In other words, the operation has come clean but, essentially, An Garda Síochána has not yet received authorisation from Revenue that the discussions have concluded regarding the voluntary disclosure?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
That is correct.
On the legal status of each of those tax numbers, we were advised that only one involved a company structure. I think that was the Garda College Sportsfield Company. Do the other four tax numbers involve, essentially, non-company structures?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I am not a legal expert but I believe that to be the case.
So they are not companies?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I believe that to be the case.
Is there any way we can clarify that because I would like to be sure about it?
Mr. John Barrett
That is correct.
In terms of the audit of the bar, the last audited accounts we were in possession of related to 2009. Subsequently, we were told that each year would be audited by a private sector auditor. Have each of those audits from 2009 to date been completed?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
My apologies, I am just checking - for the restaurant, yes, I do not believe that-----
I am talking about the bar.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I do not believe they have been completed for the bar.
Mr. John Barrett
No, not for the bar.
So we were being advised back in February that no audit had been completed and that it was outstanding from 2009. We are now being informed that we are still not in possession of audited accounts for each year to date. Is that correct?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
That is correct.
Would Mr. Nugent agree that is totally unacceptable at this stage?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
The primary focus has been to resolve the issues. I hear what the Deputy is saying. I hasten to add that the bar has closed for-----
Do our guests have any records available to them in order that the audit can be carried out?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
We do. Where the audits have been completed, we have copies of the audits.
What is the problem? I do not understand what the problem is.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I think it is the ownership issue. What we did was shut down the bar. That was the first action that was taken.
I know it has been shut down now but-----
Mr. Joseph Nugent
We shut it down 12 months ago.
What about the years 2010 to 2013, inclusive? What is the impediment to the private sector audit for each for those years?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I will have to revert on that issue.
That is pretty fundamental. We are trying to lead in terms of transparency and show that we are taking what has happened seriously.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
The company that we engaged to provide us with professional support reverted to us to say that it had incomplete records for the years concerned. The company looked into the matter and determined that it had incomplete records-----
Is that the case for the restaurant as well?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I do not believe so.
What is the position regarding audits of the restaurant?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
They are all completed.
Have they all qualified opinions or unqualified opinions or where do we start?
Mr. John Barrett
There are observations made so there is a qualified opinion in that respect. This is the Mazars report.
Are they significant?
Mr. John Barrett
The materiality of the funds flow is such that it is the largest entity, as the Deputy described it. The bar had a large cash balance but a more modest turnover judging by the incomplete accounts that were available to Mr. Kelly.
How can a voluntary disclosure be made to Revenue in terms of VAT, which is a transaction tax that is underpinned by proper accounting records, when it seems that there are incomplete records?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I think we disclosed to Revenue everything that we know is there. That is what we have said. We have made a determination about what we believe to be the exposure-----
So it is extreme guess work?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
It was based on looking at the level of transactions that went through. It is fair to say it was an estimate.
That is very worrying. We should have all those details. I cannot get my head around why no advance has been made in respect of the position relating to the bar, particularly if a private sector company is doing the audit. I do not understand that. With regard to the rental income that was received in respect of the lands, under what tax number was that income return made?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
Just to be clear on the question, under what tax number was the OPW paid the return in respect of the-----
Was it not the income that An Garda Síochána was in receipt of as well? It involved the rental income An Garda Síochána was in receipt of.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
The payment that was made back to the OPW came from the main Garda Vote.
Yes, but prior to this, An Garda Síochána was in receipt of rental income.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
The rental income flowed into the restaurant account.
So the rental income went into the restaurant account?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
Yes.
Had that been taxed? In other words, was it returned?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I cannot answer that question off hand.
I take it that the answer to that is "No" as well. That is also very worrying in terms of the progress we are making.
I think an application for charitable status for the Garda Training College was made previously and through the company structures. Where does that stand?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
We are not looking for charitable status as we speak.
Mr. John Barrett
It was a proposal at a point in time in emails but I do not think it was ever proceeded with.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
To be clear, as it stands, it is an entity of An Garda Síochána. So, essentially, the college is an integral part of it, as any other division of the organisation would be.
In terms of the staff that were in the restaurant and bar structures, have we returned a P35 and done all of the process in terms of returning the wages for both structures - the restaurant and the bar?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I believe so.
Mr. Niall Kelly
It was, yes.
Mr. John Barrett
The restaurant is completely compliant at this point in time in terms of P35, to the best of our knowledge, because it was this private non-limited entity, which made its own annual returns. As we transferred that across, Deputy, we were assured that all of these matters were in order. Perhaps Mr. Kelly wants to comment as to what he found.
Mr. Niall Kelly
Essentially, the restaurant was operating like a sole trade within the Garda organisation. That has now ceased. I have a report that looked at, since the last time I was here and I have provided it to the committee, an audit of cash and general management of the Garda College restaurant and shop. That audit was to assure us that we now had complete control of those entities and that any cashflow or compliant issues we were in control of.
Control is one thing. We has been told that the restaurant is not a company structure. Have all of the wages, casual or otherwise, been returned to Revenue in regard to the restaurant?
Mr. Niall Kelly
I would think, yes.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
As part of the voluntary disclosure we were looking at the payroll elements associated with the bar as well.
The witnesses do not inspire confidence as there is a lot of use being made of the phrase "I would think".
Mr. Joseph Nugent
The Deputy is asking us about the finalisation of a process and we are in the middle of the process with Revenue.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
Yes.
I has asked a very straightforward question. It is a "Yes" or "No" answer. Has the P35 for casual wages or otherwise been returned for the restaurant to Revenue?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
The restaurant, I believe, yes.
Mr. Niall Kelly
Yes.
And the bar?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I cannot answer that.
Mr. John Barrett
Deputy, the bar is a function of that. I accept his point that we need to address this fully and completely. The CEO decided to close the bar facility when the issues became visible to us. We have never had full-time staff in the bar. The bar is staffed exclusively by part-timers and it has been operated under traditional messing facilities.
There are incomplete data from which we can try and draw accounts. They are very incomplete data and that is what Joe is talking about.
So it is impossible to say. Is it guesswork?
Mr. John Barrett
The Deputy and I would have a little background with regard to this area. It is a matter of how much guesswork. They are incomplete accounts in the classic sense. The data would not allow for a traditional P&L balance sheet to be drawn up with the kind of simplicity one would imagine.
Is there a private sector auditor who has agreed to conduct the audits for the bar?
Mr. John Barrett
Historically, we had.
Historically, for 2009. Has someone agreed to take on the job? Has a letter of engagement been signed and is he or she is ready to complete? Is he or she in the process of completing that?
Mr. John Barrett
If I may answer-----
Mr. John Barrett
The bar is-----
Mr. Joseph Nugent
We engaged a company to work on behalf of the Garda organisation, to look at all of the materials that were available to it. It was not asked to audit the bar per se. It was asked to look at the accounts and to assess the extent of tax liability.
There was a private sector accountancy firm-----
Mr. Joseph Nugent
That is correct.
-----that was auditing the bar-----
Mr. Joseph Nugent
Yes.
-----that gave an opinion on the 2009 accounts, I think. Subsequent to that, have we a signed letter of engagement with a private sector auditor to audit the bar up to termination?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
No.
That is incredible. Why?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I think we are covering old ground in terms of where we were. With the nature of these entities, they should never have operated in the way that they operated. We have admitted that. The closure of the bar, when it was done last year, recognised that the arrangements were not what they should be. What we have to do, or what my priorities have been, is to resolve the issues going forward, which included looking at the tax issues.
My time is limited. I totally understand that point.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I accept that it was unacceptable, Deputy, and agree with him that it should not have happened.
I am not disputing that point. In terms of the bar, the witnesses seem to be saying that while a lot happened, we do not really know what happened and Revenue should shut it down and move on, especially if there is no letter of engagement signed by an accountant that shows that there is effectively no intent to quantify and get transparency in terms of what happened in the past.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
We engaged an accountancy firm to work with us across the various entities and to assess the extent to which they could complete the type of work that the Deputy has referred to. As Mr. Barrett said, the material that was there in respect of the bar was not at a level that would allow that to occur. We tried to address that aspect, as he said, but we were not in a position to conclude.
Is Mr. Nugent saying that this work is not going to be done?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
The company has said that it cannot do it because the data is not-----
Has the company said it cannot do it?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
The company has said that the data is incomplete.
If that had been said at the start my job would have been a lot easier.
Turning to the tax treatment of the living allowance that totalled €1.157 million in 2016, I note that, in November 2011, Revenue wrote to An Garda Síochána and directed that the practice of paying the living allowance during phase 2 was to be discontinued. What is the current position?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
Our colleagues in the Department of Justice and Equality have been looking into it and getting legal advice in respect of the specifics around that and about how it should have been treated. In the report of the Comptroller-----
Has the practice been ceased?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
Yes, it has.
In terms of the tax treatment, what happened from 2011 to when it was ceased?
Mr. Joseph Nugent: As I said, there is a reference, I think, in the C&AG's report, and apologies for putting words into Mr. McCarthy's mouth. He could not find evidence that Revenue confirmed that there was no liability. Is that correct?
Mr. Seamus McCarthy
We did not see evidence that they confirmed liability. I think that the aspect regarding the phasing and the structure of training has changed since then.
Yes.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy
In the period, there was the audit in November 2011 across a wide range of Garda allowances. They referred to one aspect, one phase of living allowance, and directed that it no longer be treated as a subsistence allowance. They did not retrospectively say that there was a tax liability in respect of it.
Right.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy
It was from that point forward. For clarity, this is how it was to be treated.
I thank the Comptroller and Auditor General.
In terms of the Garda College, as much as €12 million was spent between 2012 and 2014. In terms of flavour, what would be the big driver for that expenditure, particularly as there was an embargo on recruitment?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
Clearly, staff were still working in the restaurant. There were still services being delivered. There was training being delivered. The large number of recruits were not going in. Expenditure was still being incurred in that space.
The number of banks accounts have been reduced from 40 down to nine. Is that correct?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
In regard to the college there are four bank accounts, two of which will close as soon as we regularise the status of the employees. That will allow us to close down those two bank accounts. That would leave the standard imprest account, which is used for the college, and a second related to EU training. That amount-----
How many are active at the moment?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
The four would be active.
The four are active at the moment. In terms of the financing of those four and with regard to the question of funds, what is the balance between public funds and private funds?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
It is all public funds at this point.
It is all public funds at this stage.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
To be clear, there would be revenue taken in the restaurant and that is returned directly to the Vote. The funding, the actual payments, are now being managed by the administration of the college, so it is public funding now.
Thank you.
The next speaker is Deputy Kelly. We will have ten minute slots now because quite a few members wish to contribute.
I thank the Chairman. I am sorry but most of my questions will be in the form of a quickfire round because I have only got ten minutes and then I must go to the Dáil Chamber to discuss related matters.
In terms of the Standards in Public Office Commission, SIPO, we heard the last time that there were a number of people who worked in An Garda Síochána who failed to meet their obligations. I ask the acting Garda Commissioner is everyone who needs to be in An Garda Síochána now fully compliant with SIPO requirements? Has everyone who should have in An Garda Síochána, retrospectively, made declarations to SIPO? Is the risk in regard to this area now over? Finally, has any action been taken against anyone who failed to comply with their requirements under SIPO in the past?
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin
I ask Mr. Nugent to answer those questions.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I will take them in sequence, Deputy.
I asked the acting Garda Commissioner.
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin
Mr. Nugent is responsible for the area. He has done this work so he can give the details to the Deputy.
I ask the acting Garda Commissioner to be responsible for it. Why can the acting Garda Commissioner not answer?
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin
Of course I am, yes. Mr. Nugent will speak on my behalf.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
People have confirmed they are being compliant, that they are compliant and that where they have not been compliant they have made retrospective measures. We have asked that. For us to pursue this further would pose difficulties. Notwithstanding that-----
Why?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
It is because a huge amount of this is about personal responsibility. We have spoken about this previously. If people say to me that they are compliant, that does not require them to submit a document to say they are complaint. It is not possible, therefore, for the organisation to confirm whether that is the case or not. It can only occur in the context of wherever perceived conflicts occur. That is the nature of the legislation that is in place-----
I understand that. I am trying to-----
Mr. Joseph Nugent
Can I finish off that point?
Has An Garda Síochána done everything to ensure that? Has an email gone out to everyone to ask if everything has been done in relation to the Standards in Public Office Commission, if they are compliant and if they are retrospectively compliant?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
Yes.
An Garda Síochána is not just a normal organisation. It is the protector of law in this State. Is there an awareness, at this moment in time in this State today, of anyone ever not complying with this?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I am not aware of people who have not complied with it at this moment and who have not made a retrospective-----
Is Mr. Nugent speaking on behalf of An Garda Síochána?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I am speaking on behalf of An Garda Síochána. I will finish my reply. Separately, I have a meeting with the Standards in Public Office Commission next week where I will discuss this issue further. I will look for its advice on how An Garda Síochána can go further to promote the actions and requirements of individuals. I believe we do take reasonable-----
I have taken it on the record that An Garda Síochána has done everything in this regard, that nobody has ever been non-compliant and that no action was ever taken.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
We are saying that we are not aware of it.
Has Mr. Nugent exhausted everything?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
We have done as much as I feel we can reasonably do.
Maybe Mr. Nugent could send another email around.
On the second issue, I will direct my query directly to the acting Garda Commissioner. During our initial hearings in respect of the Garda College in Templemore, the committee heard that there was a lot of toing and froing around a meeting on 27 July, the duration of which the Commissioner was not sure and around which time the issues in the Garda College were just breaking. A document was sent to the previous Garda Commissioner on 24 July by Mr. Kenneth Ruane. The then Garda Commissioner personally claimed privilege on this document. The committee has sought and is still seeking this document. That Garda Commissioner is no longer in place. I ask the acting Garda Commissioner here and now to release that document. It is not a document sent to him, rather it is a document sent to the previous Garda Commissioner. I ask the acting Garda Commissioner now to release that document to this committee. We have made numerous requests for it.
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin
I will have to consider that in the context of what happened at the last meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts where that issue was discussed. I must consider it in that context. I cannot give the Deputy a response on it today.
Surely it would not be unusual, considering that many committee members here have asked for the document. Has the acting Garda Commissioner not already thought about releasing it?
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin
It has not come to mind. There have been lots of other things that have taken up my time.
I appreciate that.
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin
The Deputy having now asked it, I will consider it and I will get back to the committee.
I do not see any reason that document cannot be released.
With regard to risk and training, it is fair to say that there is a whole new process for senior management in An Garda Síochána and there has been a sweeping of the decks around processes, changes and quality control, etc. Many of the internal processes have been changed. We have looked at the recommendations and An Garda Síochána is meeting most of them, or is trying its best to meet them. I have a query on the training as it relates to telecommunications. The previous Garda Commissioner asked the Mr. Ó Cualáin when he was the assistant Garda commissioner to put in place a risk process for the management of telecommunications, especially in the use of mobile phones by senior personnel. The witness put that risk process, or register, in place. Is that correct?
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin
I put in place a risk framework for the whole organisation.
Mr. Ó Cualáin put in place a risk framework in relation to telecommunications to make sure that mobile telephones that are the property of the State and are being used by An Garda Síochána personnel are appropriately managed and maintained.
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin
There was already a policy in relation to that.
Was the witness asked by the previous Garda Commissioner to update that policy?
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin
No. At the end of the Fennelly commission, which had some reference to that area, I was asked to look at that report and I recommended a certain number of matters be addressed.
Were they implemented?
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin
Yes. They are currently being actioned by an assistant commissioner and a group.
Were the recommendations not implemented by the time Mr. Ó Cualáin put his report together?
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin
This involves a review of policy that already existed. There was already a policy in place in that regard. It involves looking at all of that and ensuring it is robust enough.
I am concerned from a risk point of view. Senior personnel on two occasions, once in respect of the previous Garda Commissioner and once preceding that, have had mobile phones and data that went missing. In the context of risk, I want to know that this will not continually happen.
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin
We have a new policy ready to be issued in that area to ensure that this does not happen again and that there is no risk for the organisation.
Why did it not happen prior to the last Garda Commissioner losing her mobile phone?
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin
We already had a policy in relation to the issue of mobile phones and laptops, etc. This is a way of reviewing that policy to ensure it is robust enough.
It certainly was not robust enough in the past. Mobile phones have gone missing with two Commissioners, one after the other, and in the case of the last Garda Commissioner it was after a new policy was instructed to be put in place or updated, or whatever the phrase is the witness wants to use.
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin
What is the question please?
Why did the policy not work in the past?
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin
There are lots of policies. It might not be that the person went against the policy of the day, or that something happened that was not in compliance with that policy. Things can happen outside of that. People can lose phones. I am just giving an example of where people are fully compliant with a policy but things happen.
That is fair enough but-----
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin
These are matters that are for another forum.
I am asking-----
I did not hear this.
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin
These are matters that are before the disclosures tribunal.
The issue of mobile phones?
I am not asking about that. I ask as a matter of risk. This could apply to everybody coming through the Garda College Templemore. I am asking as a matter of risk that all gardaí know of these policies and are aware that there have been updates because it has not worked in the past.
Turning to the findings of Mr. Kelly and his huge amount of work, does he have enough resources to do his work? When we consider Mr. Kelly's letter to the committee, the volume of work is incredible. Will Mr. Kelly indicate if he has enough resources? This is an opportunity for him to tell the committee if he has enough resources. The amount of work involved in the four areas that Mr. Kelly has identified is critical but, frankly, at the rate we are going it will take years.
Mr. Niall Kelly
Since I was last at this committee, our staff has increased. We actually had five extra staff, but we have lost two. Our staff has increased from eight to 11 and we have planned to go to 16 staff. We have not got full sanction from the Policing Authority but we are hoping to get that very soon, perhaps this afternoon, to bring our staff to 16. Effectively, since the summer our staff will have doubled from eight to 16.
I am short of time so this will be a quick fire round. In order to save time, in some of my queries I may ask Mr. Kelly to submit a further response in writing afterwards.
In the context of the audit to date - I have twice asked a question of the Department but have not received any answers - and through all this process, has Mr. Kelly found any evidence that would alarm him of expenditure for entertainment and restaurants?
Mr. Niall Kelly
I would rather not say, through the Chair
Fine.
Mr. Niall Kelly
There are issues that are subject to two investigations and I would rather not-----
Mr. Joseph Nugent
GSOC, which is undertaking investigations, has provided us with two pieces of correspondence, which we are more than happy to provide to the committee. They outline the work that GSOC is doing.
I respect Mr. Kelly. He is doing a hard job. Just for the record, though, I have asked a number of times whether officials and senior members of the Garda Síochána met in restaurants and why they met there. I have never got answers.
Can Mr. Kelly provide us with a copy of the updated Templemore risk register?
Mr. Niall Kelly
I am sure that we can. I do not have it with me.
No, I am not asking for it now. Mr. Kelly has written to us regarding the European Anti-Fraud Office, OLAF. What is the status of that matter and is it a big draw on resources?
Mr. Niall Kelly
The OLAF investigation is not a big draw on resources. The GSOC investigation has taken up quite an amount of resources in putting together forensic witness statements. OLAF came, took statements and returned to Brussels. We have not heard from it. Presumably, it is putting its report together.
We considered the slush fund. It is serious stuff. Is there a separate investigation into that? Have agents been hired for that investigation?
Mr. Niall Kelly
What does the Deputy mean by "slush fund"?
Does Mr. Kelly remember the-----
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I might say something. There is a letter from GSOC. We will happily provide it. In it, GSOC says that there are clear areas of concern in Mr. Kelly's February report, giving rise to the belief that events may have taken place. GSOC believes that it is in the public interests for these matters to be investigated and, as such, it extended the remit of its investigation to take into account the issues raised within Mr. Kelly's February report on the Garda college. Similarly, the GSOC investigation will take into consideration Mr. Kelly's final report regarding EU-funded training programmes. In other words, it has extended its investigation beyond just-----
It is covering OLAF, the slush fund and the whole lot.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I am not going to use the term "slush fund".
Sorry. I am just using it as a general term. It is not describing-----
Mr. Joseph Nugent
GSOC is extending its remit beyond the concerns that were raised in Mr. Kelly's EU-----
For instance, the bank accounts that were located at various addresses and so on.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I would not like to speak to what GSOC is doing, but it has confirmed to us that it has extended its investigation.
My final question will be brief and have nothing to do with that matter. Regarding Templemore staff, I seek an assurance - the witnesses can write to us, as I do not expect an answer now - about the status of their contracts. I am concerned about ensuring that there are no issues with zero-hour contracts and self-employment being treated in the wrong way and that everyone in Templemore is working under the appropriate conditions. Maybe through this-----
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I can answer the question now.
I would rather Mr. Nugent write to us and answer the question specifically.
Mr. Nugent can send his reply directly to the committee. I call Deputy Cullinane.
The Chairman might tell me when my ten minutes are up and I will stop immediately. I know that other members wish to contribute before 1 p.m.
I thank the Deputy.
I welcome Mr. Barrett, Mr. Kelly and Mr. Nugent. I am sure that they are glad to be back. The last time Mr. Kelly was here we had a discussion about his opening statement. He stated that there was an historical culture of non-co-operation, interference with his work and withholding information. Have matters improved since?
Mr. Niall Kelly
Yes. I will highlight some of the improvements. I am reporting directly to the Commissioner as opposed to through Mr. Nugent, as was the case earlier in the year. A new HQ directive, 25/17, sets out a responsibility for members to bring items of concern directly to me. The Commissioner and I are redrafting the charter regarding the responsibilities and duties of internal audit. The executive board has approved that charter. Some discussion is under way with the audit committee, which wants to make a number of recommendations on it. The executive board has also agreed to meet me at least four times a year. Any concern that it has or I have will be addressed at those meetings.
Is Mr. Kelly in a position today to say that, given that he was last here just a short time ago, there is now full co-operation, no interference and no withholding of information?
Mr. Niall Kelly
Yes, I think I can say that.
That is progress.
Mr. Niall Kelly
Yes.
Mr. Kelly also stated that, in his original audit, which was the source of the previous hearings, he was not able to give any assurance in terms of the financial controls. Is that still the case or has it changed?
Mr. Niall Kelly
It is still the case until I conclude my review audit. At that stage, I will examine the implementation of the recommendations. If they have been implemented, I will review my audit opinion. Hopefully, I will be able to provide either limited assurance or reasonable assurance.
I thank Mr. Kelly.
If I have nine minutes left, the Chairman might let me know after four minutes have passed. Two issues need to be examined, the first of which relates to the learnings and changes that need to be made following the various internal audit reports. We have the latest audit report, which makes recommendations and sets out the priority actions that need to be taken. It is important that we learn from mistakes. The second and most crucial issue is the need for people to be held accountability for failures, mistakes or worse.
This committee has spent a lengthy time examining the issues surrounding the Garda training college. As Mr. Ó Cualáin will know, we have published a report. Who in An Garda Síochána has been held to account or sanctioned in any way for any of the activities at the training college?
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin
A process is in place, as has been laid out by my colleague, in terms of GSOC investigations. Those have to take their course.
I know that there are processes in place and I understand that some further action may arise from them, but we are a long way down the line since the first internal audit report was published and our work. Who in An Garda Síochána was in any way held to account or sanctioned for any wrongdoing or failing by them in respect of the activities at Templemore? Can the acting Commissioner provide any example?
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin
This happened over a long period of time, and many people came and went in that timeframe. They were just the users of a system that was in place, a system that was not up to the current high standard of public management of funds. Where anything of a criminal nature is suspected, it is being addressed.
I understand that, but I am not talking about criminal investigations.
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin
Apart from that, I am not aware of anyone being sanctioned as such.
Let me be clear - I am not talking about criminal investigations because those are entirely a matter for the Garda. I am referring to situations where mistakes may have been made. Mr. Ó Cualáin mentioned that people were operating under archaic practices and processes, but those processes were put in place by individuals. That did not happen by accident, but by design. It was clear from the evidence and our report that that was the case. Either there is no accountability or there are no processes in place to sanction people for wrongdoing.
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin
If the systems in place were flawed from the beginning, people may have used that vehicle in good faith to carry out their business.
We are obviously now in the position of wanting to ensure that everything we do is at the highest level of probity.
I will get to that. As I said, the second part of my question will concern learning. I am not talking here about people who acted in good faith and worked through the existing processes, I am talking about the people who were the architects of the problems. Those processes did not fall from them sky, they were put in place by people in the An Garda Síochána. Acting Commissioner Ó Cualáin just used the word "flawed", thus admitting that flawed processes were constructed by people within An Garda Síochána. After all of the hearings and examinations that have been carried out, not one single person in An Garda Síochána, based on what I am now hearing from the acting Commissioner, has been in any way held to account for this. Is that correct?
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin
Issues with certain officeholders have been addressed.
What does that mean?
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin
I refer to issues around how they might carry out their business.
Have they been sanctioned? Or have they just had a word in their ear that they made a mistake? I am asking if anybody was properly held to account for carrying out what were very deliberate actions, particularly bearing in mind that the former Commissioner was of the view that these were very grave issues, which we all accept. Was anybody formally sanctioned in any way? Were any punitive measures taken against so much as a single member of the force?
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin
I am not aware of any such sanction at this juncture.
The acting Commissioner's predecessors operated as Accounting Officers in the organisation but prior to 2006 this role came under the Department of Justice. Can Ms Barry confirm this? Is she here on behalf of the Department?
Ms Anne Barry
Yes.
I signalled this earlier: can we put my previous exchange with the Secretary General up on the screen? I was asking questions about accounts that had been signed off by previous Accounting Officers. We had, for example, the transfer of €100,000 to the golf club that took place between 2000 and 2003. Am I correct?
Mr. Seamus McCarthy
The boat club.
We were unclear as to where that money came from; some of it might have come from voted expenditure. In his testimony before this committee, Mr. Barrett said that accounts might potentially have been compromised over a long period of time. Taking that into account then, what sanction was taken against any individuals in the Department for failings on their part?
Ms Anne Barry
It has not arisen. That €100,000, as I understand it, was transferred from the sports field company to the boat club. Some explanation was given during the hearings as to the purpose of that money and I understand that it was used for gym facilities for training guards in Dublin. As Mr. Nugent has said, the Garda Ombudsman, GSOC, has now extended its investigation to the entirety of the internal audit report.
We know all of that. I asked whether anybody has been in any way held to account or whether any sanction has been taken against any individual.
Ms Anne Barry
As I said, I do not see how that would arise. The answer, then, is "No".
I can see how it might arise, but Ms Barry's answer is no. Is she aware that a 2014 report into the Department mentioned a closed, secretive culture? She is. It talked about significant leadership and management problem and stated that "the Review Group found the culture of the Department to be closed and unnecessarily secretive"; that it was "an inward-looking organisation with limited learning capacity and reduced openness to new ideas"; and that it had a lack of clear responsibility and accountability both within the Department and when dealing with external agencies. It then lists those external agencies and among them is An Garda Síochána. The report goes on to specifically state that the management of the relationship of the Department with An Garda Síochána also needed to be examined and then finally says that this relationship is ineffective and an oversight of a confused, passive and disaggregated departmental relationship with An Garda Síochána. What improvements have been made since then to specifically address that relationship?
Ms Anne Barry
As we outlined before, new governance arrangements have been put in place in recent years. Just last Monday, in fact, a new governance framework agreement was signed between the Secretary General and the acting Commissioner. This sets out the general governance and accountability framework and the responsibilities of the various parties.
Could the Department send us a detailed note on this?
Ms Anne Barry
We certainly can.
I come back to Mr. Barrett, who was absent when I asked the question. Mr. Barrett said when he appeared here before that it was his view that accounts might potentially have been compromised. He may or may not have actually used the word "potentially". Does he remember saying that?
Mr. John Barrett
That is a line from a report I wrote on 6 July, 2015.
How far do those compromised accounts go back?
Mr. John Barrett
I wrote that report for the chief administrative officer at the time, Mr. Cyril Dunne, and it looked at reports going back to 2008 that had been produced by Barry Magee and Assistant Commissioner Jack Nolan. The term is specific and concerns-----
Generally across the signing off of accounts?
Mr. John Barrett
Yes. I reported that as a consequence of material matters being unreported, the general body corporate account would be compromised. That is the point.
Deputy Cullinane has one minute.
I point out to Ms Barry that the head of human resources at An Garda Síochána is saying that accounts were signed off on that were potentially compromised. I have already questioned acting Commissioner Ó Cualáin over his responsibility as an Accounting Officer. It is unfortunate that we do not have the Accounting Officer from the Department here today but Ms Barry can certainly speak for the Department. If it is the case that such accounts were signed off by predecessors of the current Secretary General, then this would obviously be very serious. What has the Department done to establish whether or not those accounts were compromised at any time?
Ms Anne Barry
My understanding is that once those accounts are closed off then that is it and the matter is finalised.
They are closed off then and nobody is held to account.
Ms Anne Barry
Once the Comptroller and Auditor General has concluded the process. My understanding is that that is the position.
That is also my understanding. My understanding is that nobody has been held to account in the Department, who simply closes the matter, and nobody is held to account in An Garda Síochána. I do not find this acceptable.
My final question concerns the recommendations in the internal auditor's report. Mr. Kelly recommends here that the bar remain closed and the space be put to more appropriate use. Am I correct in saying that that is his recommendation?
Mr. Niall Kelly
That is my recommendation.
Can I also ask acting Commissioner Ó Cualáin to confirm that management's response was that this recommendation would be put forward for the consideration of the steering committee? That is what it says here. Is that correct? Or perhaps Mr. Nugent could answer me.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
Mr. Kelly made his recommendation and the bar has remained closed. We have not moved on to saying what we are going to do with the bar in the future.
This says that it will be considered by the steering committee. Has it been considered?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
It has not been considered yet, no.
Why not?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
The steering committee is currently focused on ensuring that the recommendations are delivered.
Why not just accept the recommendation? It is a very explicit recommendation.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
It is Mr. Kelly's recommendation. The point is that I have not spoken to others regarding whether there should or should not be a bar in the college. At the moment the bar is closed. If there is to be a decision on that then it will be considered and there will be a broader consultation.
What criteria would be used?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
We have not yet reached that point. There are bars in other third-level institutions and there are arguments both for and against having one.
There were no bars in other institutions that were subject to lengthy discussions at the Committee of Public Accounts and that have been linked to financial irregularities in their own organisations. It is a clear and explicit recommendation from an internal audit that this bar be closed, remain closed, and the space put to a different use. Why was this recommendation not accepted?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
It is because it has not yet been considered by the organisation at this point.
It goes without saying that one cannot have a bar licence without tax clearance. It would be impossible to-----
Mr. Joseph Nugent
Were the bar to open it would do so under the direct organisation of An Garda Síochána.
Who would have the licence?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
We would take it through An Garda Síochána as an entity. A proper governance structure would have to be put in place were we to do this; we would put a range of measures in place. We have not made any decision either for or against this, it just has not been considered. As things stand, the bar is closed and it is not currently a priority that it be opened. We will continue to sort out the other recommendations before even looking at this.
The bar is closed for two reasons, firstly because it was closed and secondly because it cannot open legally without a licence.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
Yes. I hear what the Chairman is saying.
If the bar were to reopen, what does the process of getting a licence entail? Would somebody have to go down to the local District Court? Who would go down to do that?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
A local operational committee would take responsibility for that and make the application.
Does one have to purchase a licence in this day and age?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I honestly do not know.
What I am saying is that there might be a cost to getting a licence.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I do not know.
It is not as simple as-----
Mr. Joseph Nugent
No, I accept that.
Mr. Kelly mentioned progress and identified a number of specific points, including the fact that he reports directly to the Commissioner. Is that done in a formal way? Are formal meetings set up wherein he reports to the Commissioner?
Mr. Niall Kelly
It is both formal and informal. I have, on occasions-----
When was that set up, and how many times has Mr. Kelly reported?
Mr. Niall Kelly
It has been in effect since about August or September of this year. I have met with the executive board, which comprises the Commissioner, the chief administrative officer, CAO, and the deputy commissioner, on at least two occasions so far.
How many times has Mr. Kelly met with the Commissioner since September?
Mr. Niall Kelly
I have informal meetings-----
How many?
Mr. Niall Kelly
I think we have had one formal meeting since September, and quite a number of informal meetings.
When did the new situation, whereby the executive board meets Mr. Kelly four times a year, start?
Mr. Niall Kelly
I have had two of those meetings so far. I had one about three weeks ago and one around the beginning of September.
There is a new directive whereby items of concern are brought directly to Mr. Kelly. When did that come into effect?
Mr. Niall Kelly
That came into effect in March or April of this year.
Have items of concern been brought to Mr. Kelly's attention?
Mr. Niall Kelly
They have.
Would Mr. Kelly like to elaborate on those items of concern?
Mr. Niall Kelly
I would rather not, because they concern ongoing audits or ongoing work. When I have a report, it will come through the Comptroller and Auditor General in the normal way, and this committee will have sight of it-----
Is Mr. Kelly not in a position at the moment to elaborate on those items of concern?
Mr. Niall Kelly
No.
Are these new matters coming to Mr. Kelly's attention or are they items of concern that are part of the legacy as it has been described to him?
Mr. Niall Kelly
There is a range of different issues that fall into both categories.
Are they governance issues?
Mr. Niall Kelly
They are governance issues.
Are there still ongoing governance issues?
Mr. Niall Kelly
I think we always will have ongoing governance issues. We will never be perfect.
When does Mr. Kelly think he will be in a position to report on these items of concern that have been brought to his attention?
Mr. Niall Kelly
They will come in the normal course of our audit work.
I would like the witness to explain to me what that is.
Mr. Niall Kelly
They will be included in our audit plans and will come as audit reports. Some items may be raised as concerns by people but when they are examined, they may not be as-----
I am asking Mr. Kelly specifically about items of concern. A new system has been set up. That is very welcome. Part of the problem was that there was no mechanism whereby items of concern could be raised. I am now hearing something very positive. There is a mechanism in place. I have asked Mr. Kelly about items of concern. He said they are serious items of concern. I understand Mr. Kelly is not in a position to elaborate at this point. I am just responding to his answer. Will he report in due course?
Mr. Niall Kelly
I will.
Mr. Barrett is the head of human resources, is that correct?
Mr. John Barrett
Yes.
Is he on the finance committee?
Mr. John Barrett
No. I have a little knowledge-----
I did not mean that. There was confusion between so many reports. I was only trying to establish-----
Mr. John Barrett
I have a good knowledge of-----
That is all right. I was not questioning Mr. Barrett's knowledge, only trying to establish where he fits into the picture. He has been praised by members of this committee in the past for his directness, concern and attention to detail. What is his opinion on the progress that has been made?
Mr. John Barrett
I pay tribute to the acting Garda Commissioner. He has been very true to the improvements in transparency and the commitment to creating a climate where people can come forward with issues of concern. That has been a visible change, even in the very short time he has been leading the organisation. The informality that Mr. Kelly spoke of in respect of his rapport with the acting Garda Commissioner is reflected in my own experience and the organisation is better for that.
Is Mr. Barrett concerned about any particular issues? Have items of concern been brought to his attention in the manner that they were brought to his attention before, when he shared them with this committee?
Mr. John Barrett
I have become a person with whom people feel they can raise concerns. That applied before the committee sat and since, and I treat-----
We are all in that department.
Mr. John Barrett
I know the members are. They do it for a living; I do it as a sideline. It is a very important question.
I want Mr. Barrett to answer the question, if he does not mind.
Mr. John Barrett
There have been more instances of people speaking out and like Mr. Kelly, I have been the recipient of other statements of concern from a number of people coming forward with things to say. That certainly has increased since the committee sat in May.
The famous culture has changed, where people-----
Mr. John Barrett
It is slowly beginning to change. It is a big ship. Members must understand that 16,000 people make us the second-biggest employer in the public service.
I understand that. I am asking specifically about our role.
Mr. John Barrett
Yes. I think the committee's role has had an impact.
I return to my question about items of concern. Are matters being brought to Mr. Barrett's attention that he wants to bring to our attention, in the manner that he did before?
Mr. John Barrett
No, because people are speaking out about all kinds of issues. I will give the committee some of the general-----
Is Mr. Barrett happy that the mechanisms are now in place to allow his office to do its work?
Mr. John Barrett
We are exploring the need to improve those mechanisms all the time. It is very dynamic. The number of people who speak up is increasing. As a proportion of people's time on my team, I note investigative work, response work and conversations and dialogue are certainly increasing.
I will raise one or two matters specifically. I heard the questions concerning the restaurant. Has it now been sorted out? Are those accounts now audited? Have all the difficulties concerning the restaurant's employees and their status been sorted out?
Mr. John Barrett
I must first say that a tremendous amount of work has been done in this area.
Mr. Barrett should just answer my question, because I have only a few minutes.
Mr. John Barrett
I am going there. The restaurant is moving into full public ownership and operation. The staff members have been given draft contracts, which they can sign. They have raised a series of questions and we are in dialogue with their representatives.
By whom will they be employed?
Mr. John Barrett
They will be State employees. They will be civil servants-----
Is that process in being?
Mr. John Barrett
Yes.
When will that process be completed?
Mr. John Barrett
The ball now rests with the employees. We are waiting for them to come back with the contracts signed. We are in-----
Mr. Joseph Nugent
We have moved beyond that. We are at the stage involving the formal process of sanctioning authorities. The contracts are not formally signed but they have been agreed to in principle by the staff concerned. That was a necessary process.
The accounts of the restaurant will come under the regular accounts that-----
Mr. Joseph Nugent
Absolutely. It will be done through normal accounting processes.
Is that for 2018?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
No, for 2017. It is in operation. The funding of the restaurant is coming through the normal expenditure of the Garda vote.
As for the disclosure to the Revenue Commissioners regarding the figure of €32,000, is there an update on that from the Revenue?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
No. It is with the Revenue Commissioners, we-----
How long has it been with the Revenue Commissioners?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
It has been some months.
Perhaps someone can revert in a minute and tell me how long.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I am informed it has been since May.
As for the Dromard farm, is that a property of 252 acres? I will come back to the witnesses from the Office of Public Works, OPW, on this. I also have a question for the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. McCarthy. His concerns pertained to the control and management of that land, as opposed to its purchase. Is that correct? Were his concerns about the purchase of the land?
Mr. Seamus McCarthy
I outline in my report the sequence of events involved. My concern around the purchase was really about the evaluation of options available to the Garda Síochána in conjunction with the OPW at the time it bought the land. There seemed to be a lot of chopping and changing about priorities, requirements and criteria for selection.
There was the question of whether it should be near to Templemore or further away. I see that. I revert to the witnesses from the Office of Public Works. Is it correct that the State owns the 252-acre property?
Mr. Martin Bourke
Yes, the State owns it.
Does the OPW rent a small portion of that out?
Mr. Martin Bourke
No, we currently rent all of it out.
We will come to the current situation.
Mr. Martin Bourke
Can I clarify that? The property is still used by an Garda Síochána for certain tactical exercises including driving motorbikes, using woodland etc. However, it is being farmed full-time, apart from tracks etc.
At one point, did the OPW rent some of this out to local farmers?
Mr. Martin Bourke
We rented it all out in 2007.
All of it?
Mr. Martin Bourke
Yes, we are talking about all the grazing land.
So it was only a small proportion of the 252 acres?
Mr. Martin Bourke
There is grazing land and wood land, we have rented out all the grazing land.
At that time all the grazing land was rented, and the money derived from leasing that land went to the Office of Public Works?
Mr. Martin Bourke
Yes, and then it was returned to the Exchequer under appropriations.
Is it correct that at one point it went to An Garda Síochána and it took the money for that land?
Mr. Martin Bourke
That is correct.
It is now back under the remit of the Office of Public Works.
Mr. Martin Bourke
It has been back under our remit since 2014.
And has the Office of Public Works received the money that An Garda Síochána received for that rent?
Mr. Martin Bourke
We have indeed.
For the full period?
Mr. Martin Bourke
Yes, for the full period in question.
An Garda Síochána, to be fair to it, wrote to the Office of Public Works in 2008 about the arrangement. There does not appear to be any response in the records. Did the witnesses clarify or check this before coming into this meeting?
Mr. Martin Bourke
I looked at it, as did my staff. There does appear to have been a breakdown in communication around that time. It resulted in An Garda Síochána renting the land through------
And making use of the money, legitimately, as it saw it.
Mr. Martin Bourke
It would appear so, yes.
The Office of Public Works did not respond to the letter.
Mr. Martin Bourke
I cannot see a response from the Office of Public Works.
Is that acceptable?
Mr. Martin Bourke
Personally, it would not be acceptable to me and I hope it would not happen now.
The Comptroller and Auditor General has identified gaps in the oversight of State land and has made recommendations in how to deal with this in future. Will Mr. Bourke say how he responds to that recommendation or to the deficit the Comptroller and Auditor General identified in the management of State lands, particularly in the context of the farm.
Mr. Martin Bourke
The recommendations are specifically in the context of the farm, but moving beyond that, as I understand it, the recommendation is that there is a need to consider the formal relationship between the Office of Public Works and the people that we put in.
I know that. What is the Office of Public Works doing about it? How is the Office of Public Works responding?
Mr. Martin Bourke
We are looking at forms of occupancy agreements that we can put in place with people who we put in to our properties. The majority of our clients, as we would describe them ------
I read the Office of Public Works response. It is saying that there is normally no difficulty -----
Mr. Martin Bourke
Yes, we are 186 years in existence. They are mainly civil servants, subject to certain standards, audits and so on.
I have the greatest of respect for the Office of Public Works, there is a vital role for it but a gap has been identified here. The Office of Public Works did not respond in 2008. Money was received and used legitimately, according to An Garda Síochána. The gap was on the part of the Office of Public Works. There has been a recommendation that the Office of Public Works actively examine that. Mr. Bourke says that the Office of Public Works is now looking at an occupancy agreement, is that correct?
Mr. Martin Bourke
One of the recommendations was about the agreement between ourselves.
When will that be in place?
Mr. Martin Bourke
As we put specific clients into properties, we are examining what the most suitable arrangements may be.
That farm was bought. It is obviously a very valuable asset in terms of strategic planning. There was a plan for it which did not happen. Has the Office of Public Works a role in examining that? The land was bought for a specific purpose which has not been brought to fruition. Perhaps if it had happened, and we had a centre of excellence, we may not have had the amount of difficulties we have had.
Mr. Martin Bourke
Indeed. What we are specifically doing, in conjunction with our colleagues in An Garda Síochána, is to develop a master plan for the property needs around Templemore, the college and surrounding lands. That would also extend out to Dromad farm.
What is the plan and its timescale?
Mr. Martin Bourke
Only recently, I spoke to the State architect who is happy to embrace this. It is best practice that when there is a need for accommodation, training rooms or anything -----
It is certainly best practice, I accept that. I am asking what is the timeframe for it.
Mr. Martin Bourke
I anticipate that the master planning process will commence over the next month or two.
I am sorry, I am watching my time. The golf course is 37 acres and is owned by the Office of Public Works.
Mr. Martin Bourke
Yes but it is leased through this Sportsfield Company Ltd. on a 99 year lease.
Where are we in relation to that? Various gaps have been identified by the Comptroller and Auditor General on that, that a lease was given, there was no discussion with the Office of Public Works, there was no consideration given to buying back the lease. All of that has been identified. What is the current position in relation to the golf course, in relation to back payment of the money due annually and so on? Has it all been paid?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
No, it has not. The position has been one of engaging with -----
Can Mr. Nugent say how much is due?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
The last figure which was due was in the region of €80,000. The last figure was €88,000 and will have increased since.
When was the last time any money was paid?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I do not have the precise information but it was many years ago. The Deputy is asking about the status of the golf club. It is important to say a number of things as there is much uncertainty on the matter. An Garda Síochána's priority has been to remove Sportsfield from the picture at the earliest opportunity. That started with the transfer of the other lands, the playing field lands as they are known, in Templemore. That is in the process of conveyancing.
I want to clarify this. Sportsfield Company has property, that property must be transferred back, and then the Sportsfield Company will be wound up which was one of the strong recommendations of the report.
Mr. Martin Bourke
Yes, absolutely.
Where is that process at?
Mr. Martin Bourke
As I was about to say, the discussions are taking place between the Office of Public Works and the Chief State Solicitor's office on that matter. It is a question of how long the conveyancing takes. There are no obstacles. The company is not causing any obstacles. The Office of Public Works wants it to happen. It is a process issue. I cannot give a time but it is in progress.
What about the golf course?
Mr. Martin Bourke
As I said, the priority has been to address and resolve that issue. We have not addressed the question of the golf club today because we recognise that complex issues need to be resolved. The outcome of the discussions on the transfer of the Sportsfield land are helping the Office of Public Works to inform itself about the most appropriate process on this. We have a very strong relationship with the people in Templemore, so we equally need to recognise that -----
I have met with people from Templemore about the golf course. I know that it is a vital part of the community down there. I am not questioning that, I am questioning the amount of money due and why it remains outstanding. I am asking for confirmation of a timeframe for the process of winding up the company and so on. The interim report was last February, is that correct?
Mr. Niall Kelly
Yes.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
It was. The transfer of lands takes a huge amount of time so I cannot -----
What about the back pay of money?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
Let us step back for a moment. The transfer of lands takes an extraordinary amount of time. That has been the primary focus in addressing that issue. We will then engage with the golf club around the money that it outstanding to the State in respect of the land rental, we are very conscious of that. I expect that we will have those engagements with the golf club at some stage later this year.
I call Deputy MacSharry.
I thank the Chairman and apologise in advance if I am abrupt.
The Deputies should know that there are three speakers, Deputies MacSharry, Murphy and Kelly and there is 30 minutes left. They each have ten minutes and the witnesses must leave then.
Will the Chairman tell me when I have reached seven minutes and I will try to wind up, to be fair to my colleagues.
Give them a chance.
There were references to a slush fund earlier. I know the witnesses do not like that term, so what should we call it?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
It is unusual sources of funding.
Okay, so unusual sources of funding emerged. One of the college's bank accounts was assigned to the home address of -----
Mr. Joseph Nugent
If we are going into that area we should be clear that there is a Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission investigation into specific issues. I have to be careful on what I can answer and equally there should be care about what comment might be made.
Mr. Nugent can stop me if there is anything he cannot -----
Mr. Joseph Nugent
That is fine. I will also be abrupt.
There is no problem with that. Mr. Nugent will be well used to it.
There was prima facie evidence of fraud which brought it to the stage where the case was given to the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission and things developed along that route, is that fair?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I will not make any comment on that. I am saying that Mr. Kelly produced a report, that report was handed to the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission. The Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission determined that it merited investigation. That is as far as I will answer the question.
Can Mr. Kelly tell me if it is correct that there was prima facie evidence of fraud that led him to hand material to the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission?
Mr. Niall Kelly
I produced a report. What I said in it is on record and I do not want to go beyond that.
Was there a specific investigation on that matter which led Mr. Kelly to pass that information to the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission?
Mr. Niall Kelly
The report looked at specific issues. I produced a report. That report, on 19 June last, was referred to the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission.
Was a legal firm used when drawing up the report? Did Mr. Kelly use a legal firm for-----
Mr. Niall Kelly
No, I took advice from the head of legal affairs.
I popped out for a minute or two several times during the earlier exchanges. I ask the witnesses to stop me if I am being repetitious. External accountants were hired in May 2017. Is that correct?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
We engaged accountants to assist us in looking at the accounts that were in place, the absence of accounts that were in place and what financial information we could understand existed around the restaurant, the bar and the shop.
Was that put out to tender?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
Yes.
Someone was selected from the tender.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
That is correct.
With regard to sourcing suppliers of food, beverages and other supplies, were there any concerns or findings regarding kickbacks?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I am not aware of any evidence of any kickbacks whatsoever but Mr. Kelly can come in on this.
Was there any evidence of hello money being paid, holidays------
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I am not aware of anything.
-----tickets for the races or anything like that?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I am not aware.
Good.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
Just to confirm, the procurement issue is out to tender as it stands at the moment. The Office of Government Procurement is running the procurement for food as we speak.
Will there be one supplier for everything?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
There will be a number of lots for different-----
I understand. In terms of the employment of staff, I am aware that Mr. Barrett stated there were part-time staff. How were staff recruited and hired?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
If we are talking about the restaurant-----
Mr. Joseph Nugent
Mr. Barrett was, I think, talking specifically and more particularly about the bar. There were part-time staff working in the bar.
I am talking about the restaurant.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
Apologies. In relation to the restaurant, the staff would have been engaged by the person who was acting as the restaurant manager in the college at the time.
Was there a process in place? Were jobs advertised?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I do not know is the answer to that.
We might check whether there was a process involved, whether advertisements were placed or whether it was more a case of Mary's first cousin being free at the time.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I would not go that far but I suspect the manager was looking for people locally to work in the restaurant.
Mr. John Barrett
It was ad hoc and I think the Deputy would not be a million miles from the reality there. I think there was a community-----
Mr. Joseph Nugent
Sorry for cutting across Mr. Barrett. All I am saying is that there was an ad hoc arrangement. I do not think there was a formal advertising process.
Mr. John Barrett
No, it would have been a case of local knowledge.
Local knowledge meaning so-and-so is free, we need somebody for a few hours and we will get him or her.
Mr. John Barrett
Yes, there was holiday cover for summers. There was a lot of this stuff but an ad hoc arrangement would have been the common theme.
Is there a process in place in this area now?
Mr. John Barrett
There will be.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
The staff will be recruited and will become full-time civil servants. The existing staff will be regularised and any new vacancies will be subject to the normal sanctioning and recruitment processes, as vacancies arise.
I ask Mr. Nugent to send the committee a note setting out what way this was done, how pay arrangements were struck and issues like that.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I think this is going back to the legacy issue. This was all organised by this "entity" that was the restaurant. I think our knowledge and awareness of the processes that were in place are such that we have to say the processes were not acceptable.
We are all agreed. Have any staff who were employed in such a way taken legal cases?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
Will the Deputy be explicit regarding legal cases?
Did any of the ad hoc staff who were employed take a grievance after the fact on the basis that they were underpaid or poorly treated?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I am not aware of anything.
Mr. John Barrett
No, not thus far in, if one likes, our administration directly of the matters. We are in dialogue and it is very constructive and very aligned as to where everybody wants to get to - formalisation.
I know, because I was half listening, that Deputy Connolly probably covered much of the ground I am about to cover. Again, I ask the witnesses to stop me if I go over old ground. In terms of the rents for the properties, the amount of rent to be paid for the golf course was €12,600. This was for an area of 37 acres. When the rent was struck it was not yet a golf course; it was just land. Is that correct?
Mr. Seamus McCarthy
Sorry, I think it was a golf course at that stage.
It was already a golf course.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy
It had been a golf course since 1993, I think.
Mr. John Barrett
My apologies. That is right.
Thanks for that. The rent for the 162 acres of farm land was €38,000 per annum.
Mr. Martin Bourke
In the first year, 2007, it was €38,000. It was for hay and silage in 2008 so it was only €5,000 and then when the Office of Public Works became involved again in 2016 it went up to €30,000 a year for a five-year leasing arrangement.
Were those rents based on valuations? Who did those deals?
Mr. Martin Bourke
They were operated through auctioneering firms.
Locally.
Mr. Martin Bourke
Yes. The auctioneering firms actually changed. Initially it was a local auctioneer and then, more latterly, it was a different auctioneer shall we say, but it was based on their best knowledge of the market and their procurement processes.
Were they appointed by tender?
Mr. Martin Bourke
Yes, we tender for it.
A firm then came in.
Mr. Martin Bourke
Yes.
Were they local firms from the town?
Mr. Martin Bourke
I understand the most recent auctioneer is from Roscrea.
Between 2009 and 2013, the rental income on this land was €131,000.
Mr. Martin Bourke
Yes.
That is about €32,750 per year. Is that right?
Mr. Martin Bourke
I understand it varied. What was actually refunded to us in the Office of Public Works was €131,000 for those years. On the actual breakdown of that, I understand the figure varied between the years because it was-----
Who would authorise that?
Mr. Martin Bourke
During those particular-----
Who in the college would authorise it? Who liaised with the auctioneers to say-----
Mr. Martin Bourke
An Garda Síochána would need to refer to that. I can talk about-----
Mr. Joseph Nugent
As I understand it, it was the superintendent of administration in the college at the time.
Is that Mr. Nugent's predecessor?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
No. It is my understanding that it was the superintendent of administration in the Garda College at the time.
He would make decisions on varying rents and similar matters. Is that the case?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I do not believe the rents varied. I think they stayed the same.
If the rent for four years was €131,000, it makes €32,750 per annum. The lease was more, however.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
He used the auctioneer that was in place at the time. He used the auctioneering process.
I understand that.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
As I understand it, the Deputy is trying to work out why it is an odd amount of money. Is that the-----
No. It can often be an odd amount of money and fees for the auctioneer and things like that would probably be built in. Mr. Bourke stated the actual lease was less than €38,000.
Mr. Martin Bourke
The rent in 2007 was €38,000. It then went right down in 2008 because it was for hay and silage so it was a limited arrangement that was in place.
What did it go down to?
Mr. Martin Bourke
It went down to €5,100. I understand they were purely taking hay.
In what year was that?
Mr. Martin Bourke
That was in 2008. They were only taking hay off a portion of the land.
From whom did the OPW get the €131,000 in that case?
Mr. Martin Bourke
Sorry, the €131,000 is the figure for the rent, as we understand it, that was collected through the auctioneer to An Garda Síochána and the €131,000 was what was refunded to the Office of Public Works. That relates to 2009 to 2013. Does the Deputy understand?
I am just a bit confused.
Mr. Martin Bourke
Perhaps I can help him with the chronology on this. I do not intend to confuse the Deputy.
How many years?
Mr. Martin Bourke
In 2007, the Office of Public Works leased the land. In 2008, the Office of Public Works leased a portion of the land in order for hay to be taken off it. From 2009 to 2013, An Garda Síochána, through its superintendent, leased the land, again through the same auctioneer. When this process started and it transpired that that money should have been properly remitted to the Office of Public Works we got a cheque for €131,000, being the amount of money collected for the land between 2009 and 2013.
Was there a lease in place?
Mr. Martin Bourke
Yes.
What was the rent for that period?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
We believe it was €131,000 so when we made-----
That is €32,750 per annum.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
It is for five years. It is approximately €25,700. We went back to check how much money was received. That is how we came to the figure of €131,000. We confirmed the actual fees taken and that is where the €131,000 was calculated.
We must move on.
Are there existing valuations on all the assets?
Mr. Martin Bourke
There would be a book value on Dromard farm. If we were ever to dispose of it or do something different with it, one of the first actions would be to get the valuation-----
Is the book value an old valuation?
Mr. Martin Bourke
It possibly relates to the purchase price.
I will continue with the Dromard farm issue and OPW oversight. The Comptroller and Auditor General's narrative in the document is interesting. There is mention of a centre of excellence because Garda numbers were going to increase. The specification was 15 to 25 acres and Dromard farm is way above what was outlined at that stage. There were expressions of interest and then there was a guide price when it first went on sale. The Office of Public Works estimated a market value of €3 million and there was permission to go to €3.5 million. It was to be sold for €3.5 million, which was the upper end. The Department intervened and indicated needs could be met more effectively than through the purchase of Dromard farm, identifying a 29 acre site. For some reason, we are told that did not proceed. Dromard farm was put up for sale later with a guide price of €5.45 million and, essentially, it was purchased for €4.3 million. It was way above the specification of what was needed. Does the witness believe the value on it today is the same as the purchase price, which is somewhere in the region of €4.3 million?
Mr. Martin Bourke
Sorry, but that is not what I said. I was asked the value that has been placed on it. I understand the book value would not have been updated since it was purchased. It would more than likely stand at the €4.3 million. I could ask for a current valuation of that land and I would reasonably expect it to be a different value from what it was back then.
It would be a lower value.
Mr. Martin Bourke
I would suspect a lower value.
Would it be significantly lower?
Mr. Martin Bourke
I would prefer to see a professional valuation on it. It is turning into very good pasture land - it was not always like that - and it has been very well cared for. There is very good husbandry in place. It would be difficult to say what the added value would be without an active market.
It is fair to say the known involvement of the State in purchasing land tends to increase the value of the land.
Mr. Martin Bourke
It can attract a premium.
If it is disposed of afterwards, the valuation can go downwards.
Mr. Martin Bourke
When my staff took over management of this farm, it is one of the reasons we deliberately and strategically went for a five-year lease on the land. We knew there was much work to be done on it and it would also give us sufficient time to know what exactly we wanted to do with the land.
It is above the specification needed. The witness has said part of the woodland is being used. Does Mr. Bourke foresee a scenario whereby the farmland aspect of the property would be part of the centre of excellence?
Mr. Martin Bourke
I referred earlier to an agreement that the Office of Public Works has with An Garda Síochána and we will do a master plan for the overall college. It will look afresh at what exactly is needed and at the making of those specifications. When that happens, we must consider the appropriate property solutions and match them to resources. I cannot speculate at this stage as to whether Dromard farm will be part of the specification or solution. It could transpire that there is sufficient area around the college or in the existing curtilage of the college to satisfy the needs of the Garda. That would be pure speculation at this stage.
When the Department intervened in 2005 and informed the OPW that Garda requirements could be met more effectively through purchase, it identified somewhere else that was worth €500,000. Who was making the decisions at that stage? What control had the OPW over this? Was it just acting as an agent?
Mr. Martin Bourke
We would have been acting as agent in terms of being professionals in the area and getting valuations. As has been mentioned, there seemed to be some chopping and changing in the requirements. I was not part of that. We went down one road with Dromard farm and when that was withdrawn or sold privately, the Office of Public Works went in another hunt. While that was ongoing, Dromard, which had already been seen as suitable, returned to the market. One of the particular requirements, as I understand it-----
My time is very short.
Mr. Martin Bourke
I beg the Deputy's pardon. One of the particular requirements of An Garda Síochána at the time Dromard was first considered was that it should be some distance from the town because of firearm considerations.
I saw that. The Committee of Public Accounts report from July 2017 contains a number of aspects quite critical of the OPW. One of the conclusions we made was that the fact the Garda college was leasing land from the OPW highlights a very worrying weakness in the management of State assets. It was indicated that Dromard farm may well have an impact on the Garda Vote. Did it have such an impact? The committee noted that funds to be paid to the OPW for the lease of Dromard farm would be taken from the Garda Vote, which may have an impact on Garda services. Where will the money be taken from? Has it been considered at this stage? What would be the expected amount in question?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
We paid €130,000 from our standard accounts. Did it have an impact on services? It was €130,000 that would have been used elsewhere. There was a previous reference to a Supplementary Estimate sought for this year.
Another conclusion from the report earlier this year was that four of the 19 recommendations in the Garda College implementation plan can be considered completed. Some progress has been made since but they are not all completed. Is the witness satisfied with progress to date? We were very dissatisfied with the speed of implementation.
Mr. Joseph Nugent
We provided a copy of the report from the Policing Authority. It confirmed that in its opinion, 11 of the 19 recommendations have now been completed. The employees issue will be resolved before the end of the year, which will also allow us to close bank accounts, which is also a consideration. We will be left with broader elements that in some ways were reliant on other entities. These include the conclusion of the procurement of food, which will happen around the first quarter of next year; and the transfer of land, which will take an amount of time and will have an impact on the wind-up of the Garda College Sportsfield Company Limited. It is most important to say that particularly with the closure of the bank accounts and regularisation of employee status, the general infrastructure and procedures around the college will have been moved to a very different place from where they were this time last year.
We are up against the clock.
I will be quick. I can give a few minutes to Deputy Aylward.
There will be no voting in the Chamber.
There is a policing committee meeting at 2 p.m. and the Garda Síochána representatives must leave at 1 p.m. We have ten minutes for the two Deputies.
I thank the Chairman and our guests for coming in. I have a couple of questions, with the first arising from comments made in a line of questioning from a previous meeting. It concerns the previously voted and audited budget of An Garda Síochána and the Department, going back to the transfer of moneys outside the control of An Garda Síochána. Mr. Kelly identified these as "compromising" the accounts in terms of not being able to stand over them. Ms Barry made a comment earlier that it simply was not possible to look back, or words to that effect. I would have a different view.
My question is for Mr. McCarthy. Does something like this not warrant a special investigation of the Vote of An Garda Síochána going back to where it appears money was being used for all sorts of different purposes outside the control of both An Garda Síochána, the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Department? This is where it is to be determined what the moneys were being used for and by whom. This may include other agencies that are not present now. Is it not appropriate that the Comptroller and Auditor General would take a considered view as to whether such an investigation should take place of a certain number of years, depending on the information coming from Mr. Kelly's audit?
Mr. Seamus McCarthy
As I understand it, further work is ongoing to examine the transactions that went through the accounts. Technically, it would not be possible for me to go back and re-audit periods that have already been closed.
I would have thought it was technically possible but perhaps it would be legally difficult.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy
Yes, legally. I take the point. There is the question of what the value of it would be to examine all this in detail, particularly as additional work is being done, as I understand it, by An Garda Síochána. It is the right place for that to be done. I have done the audit of the appropriation account of previous years and based on the information available to me I presented and published the appropriation accounts. I cannot republish an appropriation account for a prior year. It is not available to me to do that.
I thank Mr. McCarthy. We have touched on staffing levels and when I mentioned it before, Mr. Kelly answered some questions. The unit has 11 people and is heading for 16. I thought it had 11 people the last time I asked the question but Mr. Kelly has said the number was eight. That is fine and I must have misunderstood him at the time. The section has also had the assistance of external accountants and auditors, which I am sure is helpful. How long will it be before the work is completed?
Mr. Niall Kelly
I will always be examining matters relating to the college and it will come up in audit plans for the next number of years. I have supplied my current work programme to the committee and it identifies four audit reports, two of which are complete and two that I hope to have completed by the end of this year. That process might identify more work that needs to be done and I cannot definitively say that will be the end. I hope this section of auditing will be completed by 2017. Other matters will fall into next year's plan and I will co-ordinate with the senior auditor from the Comptroller and Auditor General to get its views as well to ensure I am not missing something.
I will make these my final questions in order to facilitate Deputy Aylward. It relates to the transfer of over €100,000 from the Sportsfield company to the private members' club, or the boat club. There is no control over this by An Garda Síochána as a unit. The members happen to be gardaí but it is a private club. Has there been any indication from the boat club as to whether the money has been or will be returned?
Mr. Niall Kelly
I do not want to comment on that as it is subject to investigation by the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC.
Ms Barry mentioned the money was spent on a gym, if I am not mistaken.
Ms Anne Barry
That is my recollection of the evidence given during previous hearings. It would have been evidence given by members of An Garda Síochána rather than directly by the Department.
I have articulated my views on the fund in this room. It is subject to GSOC inquiry and I hope it will finish soon. It has had plenty of time. We are talking about moneys deriving from the public Vote or part thereof. We cannot be certain, one assumes. In the course of Mr. Kelly's audit, has he ceased investigation of the transfer on the basis it is with GSOC?
Mr. Niall Kelly
Yes.
It has been completely ceased.
Mr. Niall Kelly
I have referred my reports to GSOC and it is investigating the matter.
Does Mr. Kelly know where it is with the investigation? Has he spoken with anybody about it recently?
Mr. Niall Kelly
I am in the course of providing a detailed witness statement.
Mr. Kelly is in the course of providing that.
Mr. Niall Kelly
Yes.
When does he expect to furnish that?
Mr. Niall Kelly
It is ongoing. I do not want to-----
I am not talking about the detail.
Mr. Niall Kelly
I would say it will be within the next number of weeks.
Much of what I wished to ask has already been dealt with. When we were doing our investigation we had the witnesses before us. One could describe what was happening as "non-governance". Are the witnesses happy the whole system has changed, including control, governance and management of the college? Is it running now in a proper manner? With the questioning and investigation, we found many problems and things going on that should not be. There were 48 bank accounts and that is now down to four. Has everything been scrutinised and can we now be proud of Templemore Garda College?
Mr. Niall Kelly
I have confidence in the current management team in Templemore to address these matters. They have not fully addressed them but they are in a process. Likewise, there is a steering group, mainly operating from Mr. Nugent's office, and it is progressing the issues at a pace. It has done tremendous work over the past six months or so.
There were gardaí serving on boards when, by law, they were not allowed to do so. Has that been sorted out? Were there any repercussions for individuals or group because of the mismanagement? Will there be consequences, fines or penalties arising from this scrutiny and conclusion that it was bad management?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
I will take the first part of the Deputy's question as it relates to the directors of Sportsfield. They continue to be Garda members. The advice given to us is that, notwithstanding the issues there, it would be more appropriate that they would stay to see the winding of Sportsfield rather than have new directors put in place.
With that exception, the broader issue about director membership is in hand.
Was there any financial reward for anyone serving on boards-----
Mr. Joseph Nugent
Not that I am aware of.
-----or were they all volunteers?
Mr. Joseph Nugent
To be clear, it was a private company. The current members are not receiving any remuneration.
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin
On the Deputy's broader question, a lot has been done over the past two years since this was first raised. In the context of issuing sanctions, where there were management or governance issues, they have all been approached and we have processes in place to ensure that our governance systems are for more robust and that people understand the financial management area in which they operate. We also have started courses with the Institute of Public Administration to ensure that people who go into those positions are fully au fait-----
Were they reprimanded in any way?
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin
There were no sanctions. The committee has to understand that it is still an ongoing process over a long period of time. As stated earlier, anything that reached a criminal level has been passed over to the-----
In hindsight, why did it take so long? There were investigations between 2007 and 2016. Why did it take so long to get the facts and figures right and the whole thing under control? Why was continuous mismanagement and non-governance allowed to happen for ten to 15 years?
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin
That is a difficult question in the time remaining.
In hindsight-----
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin
It is a complex issue. It was a legacy issue of a system that was in place to deal with a specific aspect of Garda work which was not the norm. This is a training facility and it was not something that happened everywhere.
That will conclude-----
I just wanted to ask about the masterplan. Have we plans in place? What about the finances? We are talking about 21,000 recruits by 2021. Are there plans in place for that? How much of the land will be taken up under these plans?
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin
There will be 21,000 staff in total, including the reserve and civilian staff. There will be in the region of 16,000 full-time Garda staff.
At this stage-----
I have five or six more questions.
I know. However, aside from the vótáil, the acting Commissioner has to go to a Policing Authority meeting. Therefore, on behalf of the committee I thank the gardaí and all the members of the force who were here today as well as those from the OPW and the Department of Justice and Equality. We will dispose of that chapter. Is that agreed? Agreed.