Skip to main content
Normal View

COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 14 Dec 2017

Business of Committee

Clerk to the Committee

In the absence of the Chairman and Vice Chairman I will take nominations for a temporary Chairman.

I propose Deputy Cullinane.

Clerk to the Committee

Are there any other nominations?

Clerk to the Committee

As there are no other nominations I invite Deputy Cullinane to take the Chair.

Deputy David Cullinane took the Chair.

We are joined from the Comptroller and Auditor General's office by Mr. Andy Harkness, director of audit, and he is accompanied today by Paula O'Connor. Apologies have been received from Deputies Pat Deering, Mary Lou McDonald and Alan Kelly.

The first item on the agenda is the minutes of the meeting of 30 November 2017. Are they agreed? Agreed. Are there any matters arising? As there are no matters arising we will move on to correspondence. There are three categories of correspondence. Category A is the briefing documents and opening statements. Is it agreed that we note those? Agreed.

No. 984A, from Department of Finance, is the opening statement for today's meeting. Is it agreed that we note and publish it? Agreed.

Next we have correspondence from Accounting Officers and-or Ministers and follow-up to PAC meetings and other items for publishing. No. 963B was carried over from last week's meeting. It is from Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú, Secretary General of the Department of Education and Skills, and provides additional information that was sought at the committee meeting on 16 November 2017 in relation to education and training boards, ETBs. We have received a considerable amount of information which has been circulated. I suggest we hold this over again until the new year. Is that agreed? Agreed.

No. 965B was carried over from Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú, Secretary General of the Department of Education and Skills and is dated 4 December 2017. It provides further details as requested by the committee regarding the progress made in relation to the contributions being made by religious congregations towards the costs incurred by the State in responding to residential institutional child abuse. This is an ongoing process so we will request the Department to keep the committee updated on this. Deputy Connolly may wish to comment on the information that has been provided.

I am content enough with the information that is coming through as long we monitor it. A number of buildings are outstanding under both schemes, namely, the 2002 scheme and the 2009 scheme.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

No. 969B is from Mr. Paul Quinn, chief procurement officer, Office of Government Procurement, and is dated 5 December 2017. It provides a note on the purchase-to-pay card system, as requested by the committee at the meeting on 16 November 2017 in response to a reference to the system by Sean Ashe, the CEO of the Kildare and Wicklow ETB. The correspondence states the system is particularly useful where a public body has a high volume of low value purchases where otherwise there would be a considerable volume of purchase requisitions, purchase orders and invoices, among other documentation. The system seeks to reduce costs for public bodies and suppliers and ensure prompt payment to suppliers. Is it agreed that we note that and publish it? Agreed.

No. 971B is from Graham Doyle, Secretary General, Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport and is dated 6 December 2017. It provides information as requested by the committee on the cost of St. Francis Bridge which is part of the Kilkenny central access scheme. I propose to send this reply to the correspondent who raised the matter. Is that agreed? Agreed.

No. 973B is from Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú, Secretary General, Department of Education and Skills. It is dated 6 December 2017 and relates to the legislative basis for the employment of teachers. This information is in response to a request from the committee for information regarding the terms and conditions of employment of State employees and in particular teachers who are paid by the State but are not directly employed by the State. I propose to forward the reply to the correspondent who made the inquiry and members may wish to study the document. Is that agreed?

I would like to come back to that at some point.

We will hold it over. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I do not wish to speak on that matter but I might come back to the Department of Education and Skills at the end on another matter. It is not appropriate or relevant now.

Does Deputy Connolly mean at the end of our discussion of correspondence?

No problem. Nos. 974B and 980B are two items of correspondence from multinational companies which I propose we hold over for the moment and come back to when we have all of the correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed.

No. 975B is from Ms Carol Hanney, chief executive of the City of Dublin ETB and is dated 7 December 2017. It provides follow-up as requested by the committee at the meeting with the ETBs on 16 November 2017. The information provided includes a breakdown of fees and travel expenses; a note on the key performance indicators in place and how they are managed and; a note on the training provided to staff at the level of higher executive officer and upwards and school principals on corporate governance. Is it agreed that we note and publish this? Agreed.

No. 976B is from Ms Angela Black, chief executive of the Citizens Information Board, and is dated 8 December 2017. It is in relation to information requested by the committee regarding the restructuring of the Money Advice & Budget Service, MABS. In summary, the decision to restructure MABS into eight regional companies was made on 15 February 2017, following a feasibility study in September 2014 and a decision by the board in November 2014 to restructure MABS and citizen information services to provide better governance arrangements for 51 MABS services and 42 citizen information service companies across the country.

According to the note, service users will not see any change in the services they receive and they will go to the same place, be looked after by the same people and get the same level of service as they currently receive. Deputy Aylward raised the matter but he is not present. Does anyone else wish to comment?

His concerns are not just unique to one location. There is a general concern about this but obviously a decision has already been taken. The concern is about the loss of the local connection but as the decision has already been taken I do not think there is a lot we can do.

We have two options. We can hold over this matter.

I think it is a concern in all parts of the country that we are losing the local ownership and knowledge aspect of the service, which I regret. In fairness to Deputy Aylward, it would be good if we could hold over this matter.

Is that agreed? Agreed. No. 977B is from Ms Fionuala McGeever, chief executive of Tipperary ETB. It is dated 8 December 2017 and provides follow-up as requested by the committee at the meeting with ETBs on 16 November 2017. Matters dealt with include Ferryhouse school, key performance indicators, use of a building in Thurles and details of corporate governance training for staff. Is it agreed that we note this? Agreed.

No. 981B is dated 12 December 2017. It is from Mr. Des Carville, head of the shareholding and financial advisory division in the Department of Finance in relation to our meeting scheduled for today and difficulties caused by a High Court action on the IBRC liquidation. I propose we just note the item for the moment and deal with the matter in that part of the meeting. Is that agreed? Agreed.

No. 982B is dated 12 December 2017 and is from Deputy Marc MacSharry on the correspondence just referred to from the Department of Finance. Likewise, I propose we deal with this in that part of the meeting dealing with the IBRC liquidation. Is Deputy MacSharry happy to do that?

That is perfect. We can do it altogether.

Correspondence 985B (i) and (ii) is dated 13 December 2017. It is a copy of a letter from the Department of Finance to the IBRC special liquidators. Again, I propose that we note it and discuss all of that correspondence when we get to that part of the meeting. Is that agreed? Agreed.

We now move on to category C, correspondence from and related to private individuals and any other correspondence.

Item No. 964C of 4 December 2017 relates to an incident in the Irish Prison Service in 1988. The individual was dismissed from the service in 1989, the committee requested the Minister for Justice to respond to previous correspondence from this individual and when the reply from the Minister, reference 923C, was considered on 24 November 2017 it was agreed to send a reply to the individual. The Minister in his correspondence encouraged the individual to make information that he had in regard to the murder of a prison officer available to the Garda. The individual has been in touch again with the secretariat and today’s item is additional information in relation to his general situation. While we are sympathetic to the individual’s case, we have sought and got a clear response from the Minister which we have passed on to the individual. It is not within our remit to take the matter of an individual’s dismissal from his employment further. I propose that we write to the individual accordingly. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Correspondence item No. 968C is from Ms Orla O'Connor, National Women's Council of Ireland, dated 5 December 2017 in response to a request from the committee for information regarding its public funding. Ms O’Connor states that the audited accounts, which are audited by independent auditors, are approved by the membership every year at the AGM. The matter which an individual had raised with the committee was whether it was permissible for the National Women’s Council to use public funds to fund a pro-choice campaign. The correspondence from Ms O'Connor does not directly address that issue and I suggest we write to her for clarification. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Correspondence item No. 970C from Mr. Padraig Corkery, communications and public affairs manager, NAMA, dated 5 December 2017, regards further information requested by the committee in relation to a hotel in Kinsale, County Cork. I propose to send this reply to the original correspondent and to advise the correspondent that the committee’s consideration of the matter is closed. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Correspondence item 978C(i) and (ii) is a copy of correspondence sent to Deputy Andrew Doyle, Minister of State, from an individual received on 8 December 2017 regarding public funding of the Irish Horse Welfare Trust. The secretariat had previously written to the Department of Agriculture on this and will follow the matter up. Can we note the correspondence? Noted.

Correspondence item No. 979C is from councillors Réada Cronin and Nicola Lawless, members of Kildare and Wicklow ETB, dated 24 November 2017 in relation to our meeting with Kildare and Wicklow ETB on 16 November 2017. They raise concerns about evidence given to the committee at the meeting. I propose to forward this correspondence to Dr. Richard Thorn and request him to address it in his briefing to the committee when we meet him in the new year and which we have put into our work programme.

It concerns other correspondence we received from other members of the board. I assume we did the same with that.

For clarification, Will Dr. Thorn's investigation be completed by that stage?

It will be at the end of January. It was agreed that we would put it in our work programme. We intend to meet him after he has completed his report. We can talk to him about his published report at that stage. There are three items we are hoping to discuss with Dr. Thorn, namely, the report; issues in respect of the University of Limerick; and the advice he gave to the CEO and chair of Kildare and Wicklow ETB.

He is in the process of doing a report on Kildare and Wicklow ETB, in relation to a specific matter, and there are alleged serious governance issues but he will talk to us after the report.

We have sent all the correspondence we have got. The process was set in train by the Department as it is a departmental review. He has been appointed and the expectation is that he will publish his report in January.

I just wanted to clarify the process. We have referred the other issues to the Department and we will discuss some of them with him.

Yes, and we have brought all of that to his attention.

Dr. Thorn is the subject of some of the correspondence and something about this does not sit comfortably with me. The people who wrote to us drew attention to a briefing that took place in advance of a meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts.

Are members happy with the process? My understanding is that Dr. Thorn is continuing with his work. Previous correspondence from councillors and members of the board has been forwarded to him and there is more information today, which will be sent on. We are not going to meet him until after his report has been completed. One of the areas of concern we have is over his interaction with members of the ETB. Are we happy for him to continue with his work and to meet him afterwards, or could we write to the Department expressing a concern about the process?

We have not really started our work on the ETBs. Dr. Thorn will continue with his work. I understand the concerns raised about the briefing and it is reasonable to write to highlight them to the Department of Finance but we should still forward the correspondence, both to the Department as part of our letter and to Dr. Thorn.

The relevant Department is the Department of Education and Skills.

Sorry. That is what I meant. We will probably have a good few meetings next year on the wider ETB subject, including the Kildare and Wicklow ETB.

Apart from sending the correspondence we received today to Dr. Thorn, are we proposing that we do anything additional or are members happy with that?

We should tell the Department that we have an issue with it.

We can write to the Department.

We should ask the Department to note it. We should say it has been highlighted and some members of the committee would have issues about it if its contents are true.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

We now move onto No. 4 on the clár, which is statements and accounts received since the last meeting.

Mr. Ó Foghlú rang a bell in relation to the Caranua review. I do not think that review has ever been completed. It was to be done over the summer.

Does the Deputy know who was to carry it out?

It was to be an internal review on a very specific issue.

Perhaps we could write to Caranua about it.

It is the Department of Education.

Has any correspondence between the HSE and Deloitte been received yet?

We still have not received that correspondence.

We were told it would be no problem. We have heard this about correspondence before and then the correspondence does not materialise.

Can we agree to write to the Department on Caranua? Agreed. On the second issue, we have gone over and back with the HSE for quite some time. It sent us the draft report but we are waiting for correspondence which its representatives said it would forward.

We have raised this repeatedly and we should not have to waste our time doing this. It was openly said that there was no difficulty but we now have a draft report, which we will look at today without the benefit of correspondence which could have a material effect on the conclusions we draw. It is certainly material to the section of the report dealing with the Grace case.

Sorry, but I was distracted. What point is the Deputy raising?

The HSE was before us and its representatives said they would send us the correspondence between it and Deloitte, which was doing the report. It was indicated that there would be no difficulty in furnishing us with any correspondence reflecting the toing and froing relating to the draft report.

We have asked for this several times so we have a number of options. We could write again or write to the director general of the HSE and put him on notice that if he does not give us the correspondence we will invite him to come back before us again to explain why.

We are not going to forget about this - we will raise it every week until he delivers. He has made a commitment to us and we expect him to deliver on that commitment.

I propose that we write to him outlining that, saying that at the earliest opportunity in January we will seek to have him back in unless he sends the correspondence he has agreed to send this committee. Is that agreed?

Since there are no other items arising regarding correspondence, we shall move on to No. 4, statements on accounts received since the last meeting. On the screen now are five accounts and statements received since the last meeting, on 7 December 2017. We can take them individually or simply note and agree them. Regarding University College Dublin, the document is dated 30 September 2016 and the relevant sum is €480 million. There is a clear audit opinion but attention is drawn to the recognition of a deferred pension funding asset standing for universities and non-competitive procurement, of €8.5 million, of goods and services. I propose that we seek an explanation note on both of those items and write to those concerned directly.

We understand the first. It is the same issue that arises with all the universities. We should deal with the second.

Mr. Andy Harkness

The Comptroller and Auditor General draws attention to the accounting treatment of pensions, as the Deputy said. The second item is where the statement on internal financial control discloses non-competitive procurement above a certain threshold. We draw attention to that in the audit report.

This comes up time and again. It is an issue we have addressed in general terms as a committee. Every time it arises, we should certainly follow up with correspondence and ask for an explanation as why there is non-competitive procurement. It is important to do so. On both issues, particularly the second, we can stress the importance of an explanation and seek one. Is that agreed?

The position on Ollscoil na hÉireann, Gaillimh, is similar. There was a clear audit opinion but, again, attention is drawn to the recognition of a deferred pension funding asset and non-competitive procurement, of €600,000, of goods and services. Again, I propose that we write to the college and seek an explanation.

I certainly agree with that. Perhaps it is a small percentage overall. We will not know until we examine the figures again. It is about perception, however. People on the ground supplying services must have confidence in the system. It is important that we follow up on this regardless of the amount.

We should note for clarity that the non-competitive procurement figure is €600,000 of €273 million, but it is still an issue.

That is the point I made. It is not to do with the percentage but with perception and trust in the process.

We will follow up with both colleges and seek a clear explanation. The remaining three accounts concern the Arts Council, Cavan and Monaghan Education and Training Board and Tipperary Education and Training Board. In respect of all three, there is a clear audit opinion. Can we note and agree these? Agreed.

The draft work programme for 2018 is on the screen. I propose that we have a further discussion later today as there are a couple of items related to our work programme that we will deal with in private session. I am sure the Chairman would like to be in the Chair when we deal with the work programme. Is it agreed to come back to that later? Agreed.

Unless there is any other business before we move to the substantial part of the meeting, we will suspend for a few minutes to allow our witnesses from the Department of Finance to take their seats.

Sitting suspended at 9.34 a.m. and resumed at 9.37 a.m.
Top
Share