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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 14 Jun 2018

Business of Committee (Resumed)

Before we bring in our witnesses we have some routine committee business to deal with. The first item to deal with is the minutes of the meeting of 31 May. Are they agreed? Agreed. There will be no matters arising that will not come up in the rest of our correspondence so I will move on to correspondence.

There are three categories of correspondence. The first is category A, briefing documents and opening statements. The first are Nos. 1378 (i) and 1378 (ii), opening statement and briefing material from Mr. Tadhg Daly, chief executive officer of Nursing Homes Ireland. This correspondence is to be noted and published. Nos. 1379 (i) and 1379 (ii) are an opening statement and briefing documents from the National Treatment Purchase Fund. This correspondence is to be noted and published. Next is No. 1381, the opening statement from the HSE for this morning's meeting, and No. 1383, the opening statement from Mr. John Gleeson This correspondence, discussed earlier, is to be noted and published.

Correspondence Nos. 1339B (i) to 1339B (iv), inclusive, 1340B (i) to 1340B (iv), inclusive, and 1341B (i) to 1341B (xxv), inclusive, were held over from the previous meeting. They are from Mr. Ray Mitchell, assistant national director of the HSE, dated 25 May and 28 May 2018 and provide information requested in respect of our meeting on CervicalCheck. There is a considerable volume of material. We met HSE officials this morning regarding this particular issue but we also have scheduled a meeting with the HSE for 5 July in the normal course of events to deal with its annual financial statement. We will note these items for the moment. They include quality assurance guidelines and the audit methodology paper that preceded the CervicalCheck audit in 2010. I will hold these documents for a minute and we will come back to them. There is a question as to whether they can be published.

No. 1353B is correspondence from Mr. Martin Fraser, Secretary General, Department of the Taoiseach, regarding the process followed in respect of information being brought to the Government relating to cases against the State. He also deals with queries we had on the strategic communications unit and the €700,000 spent on Project Ireland 2040 and includes a note on the training provided to staff on protected disclosures. This correspondence is to be noted and published. People are free to use that documentation.

Is there a breakdown of the details of the expenditure?

I will tell the Deputy-----

Does it give details on the cost of the video that was made, for example?

I will tell the Deputy what we have here. We have details of invoices processed, including for advertising, printing and binding, translation and so forth, from various companies. The documents also deal with the relevant metrics for the Global Ireland campaign, the numbers who viewed it and the number of training staff-----

I ask the Chairman to go back up through the documentation because there was video production-----

I do not see video production referenced-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It is there, under advertising and creative services. It is at the top of that table.

The table references video production, Cawley Nea-TBWA, and the sum of €12,365.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

There is also video production at the top, in the first row, listed as production of high resolution videos and graphics-----

Production of high resolution videos and graphics - €121,000 paid to Cawley Nea-TBWA, which is an advertising agency. Obviously, it contracted the work out to a video production company. The total for video production is €133,000.

I heard that the video with the little wooden planes and buses cost €200,000.

The cinema advertising costs amounted to €96,975.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The details that are given there are invoices processed to date. They may not be the final-----

There may be other invoices, as the Comptroller and Auditor General has said but the total is €551,000 for the invoices that have been processed to date. We will write back and ask for an update on the final figures when all invoices have been processed. I thank the Comptroller and Auditor General for teasing out that issue.

The next item is No. 1357B (i) to (iv) from the office of the chief administrative officer of An Garda Síochána dated 30 May providing information on the legal advice to the former Garda Commissioner, a note on the Garda training college risk register and an update on the implementation of the recommendations in the internal audit report on the training college. We will note and publish all of that.

The next item is No. 1358B from Ms Dee Forbes, director general of RTÉ, dated 30 May providing a lot of follow-up information requested by this committee, including details on the relationship between the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment and RTÉ in the context of oversight; an analysis of the 81 contractors paid as limited companies; a note on costs associated with legal contracts; and responses to the other specific questions we put. We will note and publish these documents which provide all of the answers required in a clear manner.

The next item is No. 1364B from Mr. Robert Watt, Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, dated 1 June 2018, providing information regarding guidelines on expenditure on hospitality by public bodies. That arose from our discussion on third level institutions in Cork. We will note and publish that correspondence. The next item, No. 1365B is also from Mr. Robert Watt, dated 1 June 2018, providing follow-up information requested by the committee on the European structural reform support programme, including information on the scope and expected outcomes of the project. The correspondence also includes notes on the sequencing of moving public service bodies to the finance shared service and on the financial reporting standards of public bodies. We will note and publish all of that.

The next item is No. 1366B from Mr. Barry O'Connor, president of Cork Institute of Technology, dated 7 June 2018 providing follow-up information requested by the committee including a letter issued from the institute to the Higher Education Authority dated 22 May 2018 and a note on the pension paid by the student services company, which includes details of those eligible to benefit from the pension scheme and whether anyone in the institute or on the board is involved in the company. We will note and publish that correspondence.

The next item is No. 1367B from Professor Patrick O'Shea, president of University College Cork, dated 8 June 2018 providing follow-up information requested by the committee on Cork University Foundation, Athena Swan, Infini-LED, IMI pay scales, the IMI aspiring leaders programme and a note on key management personnel. We will note and publish that information and members are free to use it as they see fit.

The next item is No. 1376B from Mr. Ciarán Breen, director of the State Claims Agency dated 12 June, relating to his attendance at today's meeting. We dealt with this earlier, so will note and publish it now. It is only a formality.

The next items of correspondence are from or related to private individuals. Item No. 1312C is from Deputy Catherine Murphy dated 18 May 2018 regarding the Road Safety Authority, RSA ,which was held over. We will hold that over again for now. Item No. 1347C is from Mr. Seán O'Reardon at the office of the Garda Commissioner, dated 28 May 2018, providing a response to the committee regarding a report on the operation of GoSafe cameras. It also relates to the issue of road safety issue and we will hold it over again for now.

No. 1351C is correspondence from an individual dated 29 May 2018 regarding the provision of training related to bereavement in the HSE. The allocation of training resources is a matter for each public body. I do not think that this committee can provide advice on how to access funding for the training required other than to contact the training unit in the HSE and I propose that we write to the individual accordingly. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The next item is No. 1352C (i) to (iii) from Mr. Niall Cody, Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners, dated 29 May 2018, provides information requested by the committee on alleged PRSI misclassification of employees. The correspondence deals with employed versus self-employed status, the PRSI and taxation systems and the appeals structure. We discussed this previously. We have also received a reply on this matter from the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection. I propose that we send a copy of both items to the individual concerned. We will keep this issue before us. The information provided here is useful to members. We will publish it on our website for the benefit of the public who may have an interest in that topic.

No. 1354C is correspondence received from Mr. Tadhg Daly, CEO of Nursing Homes Ireland, dated 30 May 2018, confirming his attendance at today’s meeting, which we will note an publish. Nos. 1342C, 1355C (i) to (vi) and 1362C dated 24 May, 30 May 2018 and 2 June 2018, respectively, were received from an individual on the issue of wards of court. We will hold that over. The correspondent has been in touch with me and a number of other committee members. We will meet one or two of the people who have asked for a meeting and return to the issue later. We will not deal with this matter today.

No. 1356C (i) to (iii) is from an individual, dated 30 May 2018, enclosing copies of letters regarding the Irish Horse Welfare Trust in Wicklow sent to Deputy Andrew Doyle and the animal health and welfare division of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. I propose we note the correspondence. No. 1359C (i) to (iii) is correspondence from an individual, dated 31 May 2018, relating to an FOI request to the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government. The committee is being copied on the correspondence which relates to road contracts and the disposal of waste. We will note that. We are not being asked to deal with anything as such but are being copied in on correspondence.

No. 1361C (i) to (ii) is correspondence from an individual, dated 4 June 2018, regarding evidence provided by officials of the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment related to RTÉ at the meeting of this committee on 3 May 2018. The individual states that information given to the committee regarding a request by RTÉ to the Broadcasting Authority for RTÉ 2+1 to be included on the Sky platform was not correct. The individual also sent a copy of this correspondence to Ms Cronin of the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment. Ms Cronin has written directly to the committee, as per item No. 1374C, dated 11 June, on the matter. Ms Cronin explains the process followed and apologises for the lack of clarity which may have risen. I am not satisfied with that correspondence and have a proposal to make in that regard. I raised an issue at the meeting in question. RTÉ representatives were talking about the commercial situation and I asked why RTÉ 2+1 was not on the Sky platform. The witness from the Department gave the impression that a request had been received but would have to go to the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI, first. I asked what stage the application was at and was told that it was with the BAI. An individual who was watching proceedings carefully felt that what was said was not true and submitted an FOI request to the BAI which confirmed that it had received no such application. The letter from the Department does not correct the record. Evidence was given in public by a very senior assistant secretary of a Department that was not accurate. We had a similar issue this morning and brought the people involved before us. While I do not propose that we go to that stage on this issue, we would not have known about it were it not for a vigilant member of the public contacting us to tell us what was said was incorrect. That has been proven to be the case. In the meantime, the assistant secretary has written to the committee to explain the background and context but has not corrected the record.

Is there any sanction for people who come in here and make false statements? Is there ever any fallout from that? People accept that it happened and apologise but is there nothing else to be done? People should be asked to provide an explanation for coming in here and giving false information.

We dealt with that point very effectively this morning and made it clear that when inaccurate information comes from any public body, it will be brought back in to explain. This is the second example of the same point and we only know about it by mistake, because somebody contacted us.

A member of the public.

We are writing to the Department to ask it to clarify and correct the record. We are going to write to the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland to confirm its understanding of the situation, because it was referred to by the Department, which I do not think was correct. We will also write to Dee Forbes of RTÉ because all the senior people from RTÉ were here and they had to know that there was no request to the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland because it had not even made a request to the Minister to have RTÉ 2+1 put onto the Sky platform. I put in a parliamentary question the other day and received a written answer on Tuesday night. The Minister said, however, that to date he has not received any formal proposal from RTÉ requesting permission to transmit an RTÉ 2+1 channel. In the Dáil on Wednesday night, the Minister said no such proposal had been lodged. Both RTÉ and the Department allowed the discussion to take place as to where the process was. I gather that informal discussions may have taken place but a formal proposal was never made so I am asking RTÉ to clarify its position. Specifically, I want to ask it if there is such a thing as an RTÉ 2+1 channel, because somebody has told me it does not even exist yet, never mind being on the Sky platform. We want the record to be corrected and we do not want there to be a lot of beating around the bush, referring to context and background, etc. What was said on the record was not accurate and it is to be corrected and apologised for. We will accept it in good faith if we get straight answers. I take it that is agreed, as I have gone through the stuff and members will see I have been on the case.

We will take the Chairman's word for it.

The parliamentary question is also on the record. Item No. 1368C from Deputy Marc MacSharry, dated 11 June, relates to how the proceeds from the sale of Bord Gáis has been spent.

This has come up in the past couple of weeks. On the policy side, it was to be ring-fenced specifically for housing and as there has been some media coverage of it, I felt it was something we could usefully ask. Perhaps we could write to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. I suggest bringing in the three Secretaries General but, in the first instance, we could write to them to ask them what they did with the cash.

Who are the three Secretaries General?

Those of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment and the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government.

We will look at any statements made prior to the sale proceeding as to the potential use of the funds, as well what happened to the funds when they were received. I assume they went into the Central Fund but let us find out.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I think they may not have gone into the Central Fund but to Ervia, which is paying dividends to the Exchequer Central Fund.

That is a problem because it was not Ervia which was to benefit from the proceeds of the sale and it was not supposed to simply pay a dividend in line with the normal criteria for State agencies. My understanding, and that of the public, would be that it was sold for €400 million and that was to be ring-fenced specifically for the housing crisis. If it is still in Ervia and has not made its way directly to the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government, what is going on? It is smoke and mirrors.

We can write to Ervia directly as well. It is the holding company.

I would not go to it, as it is a company. We should go to the three Departments.

Okay. We are happy to do that.

We will see what they say and that will inform our next move.

The next item is statements and accounts received since the last meeting. We are tight for time, so I propose we hold over the schedule. We could spend ten minutes on it if we got into it.

Are we dealing with the correspondence I sent?

I suggested we hold it over. Was it the item about GoSafe cameras or the RSA?

It was about the RSA. Perhaps we could write to it. The nub of it is that it spent €2 million on IT and other equipment relating to using the public services card but it has no authority to use it. That should have been checked before it spent the money. I can give the Chairman my notes on that.

Okay. The Deputy may liaise with the secretariat regarding the letter.

When it comes back we can follow it up.

Yes, we are happy to do that.

The next item is the work programme, which members will see in front of them. Next Thursday is one of the big Departments which we have not had in so far, namely, the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. We will deal with aid and international co-operation. The biggest item of funding in the Department's Vote is the Passport Office.

My office is turning into a passport control office itself.

My constituency office is snowed under too. We all know why we are inviting it in. Some people will ask why we are bringing it in so I will explain, for the record. There is income from the Passport Office, in the order of €50 million, in the Appropriation Accounts which we are examining. It is very much part and parcel of the funding of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. Before the Secretary General comes in, we want to deal with the following items with the head of the Passport Office. We want it to give us the different types of application methods. We know about the online system but we want to know how many went through this route last year and until the end of May this year. I do not want the average processing time - I want it broken down by days.

It is often being breached.

Lots are being breached.

Different times of the year will be different too.

We want to know how many go through the passport express system. An Post parcel express renewal applications has a target of 15 working days but this is different from first-time applications and it is the latter where difficulties are being experienced. There is a target of 20 working days in that case and it said in a reply to a parliamentary question last week that it was 35 days in some cases but some take seven or eight weeks. I do not want an average but how many are dealt with within ten, 20, 30, 40 or 50 days. I will ask for information on applications from Northern Ireland and Great Britain because it says they are adding to the figures. It says applications are up by 20% but 20% of what? We will also ask for a note on the number of applications received in the various foreign missions, the number of Great Britain renewals and first-time applications. We want figures well in advance so that we can digest them.

We should not confine ourselves to these questions either.

No. The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade will be here. There are three topics: the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade Vote; international co-operation and the Ireland bilateral aid Vote; and the Passport Office. We will ask the Passport Office how it is handling the €50 million in public money it gets annually and how efficient it is. We will all hear that staff are run off their feet but there is something seriously wrong with the management there. In 2016, income was €12.3 million ahead of expectations due to a significant increase in passports but we hear that every year. It should know that summer comes around every year.

We will ask for an explanation on that. Representatives of the Passport Office will be here next week.

On 28 June we will have representatives of the Tax Appeals Commission and the Office of the Revenue Commissioners in to discuss the write-off of taxation debt. On 5 July, we will have the HSE in on its most recent financial statement which will be available at that time. On 12 July we will have a report on the National Treasury Management Agency's financial statements which will include the State Claims Agency regarding the topics we discussed earlier.

Perhaps all members received the letter I have. We discussed the issue of the funding baseline for various local authorities and I received a letter, dated 5 June, from the Department saying a consultation process is commencing. Members can comment on the process until 3 July. If they do not have that letter I will ask the secretariat to circulate my copy because several members expressed an interest in that topic. If they have something to say, that is the formal process by which to say it.

If the Dáil sits an extra week or two, as has been mentioned, will we sit-----

Nobody has mentioned that.

It has been mentioned.

I did not hear it mentioned.

It has been mooted.

Our work schedule goes to 12 July. The last thing I want to say-----

What happens if the Dáil sits for an extra fortnight?

We will decide closer to the time.

We do not know yet.

With regard to our work programme and the outstanding matters, I cannot help but think the consultants' pay and related matters-----

Hospital consultants.

-----is a more important topic.

We have the HSE scheduled.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

We have the HSE financial statements.

We will list it as a specific topic on 5 July.

We could stick it in there. That is what I was thinking.

It is a specific topic.

It is a good topic.

The HSE will be in on 5 July, which is in a couple of weeks' time.

We will see what spying is going on.

Yes. That is definite. We said we would consider doing another periodic report from the end of January up to April. The secretariat is working on summarising the meetings that have been held. It is not a draft report but the secretariat putting all the information together as a discussion document. It will be circulated early next week and we will discuss it, perhaps, next Thursday for an hour or two. For those who are interested in leaking it and for those who are interested in receiving the leak, it is not a report of the committee. It is not a draft report; it is just a summary. It is our starting point. It helps crystallise and refresh our memories about what was said and the evidence we received at all our meetings since January, which will ultimately lead to a periodic report. It is a first step in assembling information. There will be nothing in it that has not been said in public session or sent to us by way of correspondence. We want to get his discussion document launched before the break.

We will have to bring in the private detectives. We will have them in as witnesses.

Yes. We will find out who they are. We will suspend while the witnesses take their seats.

Sitting suspended at 3.03 p.m. and resumed at 3.06 p.m.
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