COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Friday, 22 Jan 2021

Vote 29 - Communications, Climate Action and Environment

Mr. Mark Griffin (Secretary General, Department of Environment, Climate and Communications) called and examined.

Chairman

We have a quorum and the committee is now in public session. Apologies have been received from Deputy Sean Sherlock. I welcome everyone to our online meeting. Due to the current situation with Covid-19 only the clerk, support staff and I are in the committee room. Members of the committee are attending remotely from within the precincts of Leinster House. The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee and he is also attending remotely.

Today we engage with officials from the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications to examine the 2019 appropriation accounts for Vote 29 - Communications, Climate Action and Environment. To assist us, we are joined remotely from within the precincts of Leinster House by the following officials from the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications: Mr. Mark Griffin, Secretary General, Mr. Ciarán Ó hÓbáin, assistant secretary for communications and Ms Lisa Keyes, principal officer. From the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform I welcome Mr. Brendan Ellison, communications, climate action and environment Vote section. We are also joined remotely from outside the precincts of Leinster House by the following officials from the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications: Mr. Philip Nugent, assistant secretary for waste and natural resources, Mr. Robert Deegan, principal officer, Mr. Frank Maughan, principal officer and Mr. Fergal Mulligan, national broadband plan programme manager. I welcome them all to the meeting and thank them for the briefing material they have prepared for the committee and for appearing before us. We changed the date at short notice and today is a different date from when we intended to have the meeting.

When we begin to engage I ask members and witnesses to mute themselves when not contributing so we do not pick up any background noise or feedback. I ask that people use the button on their laptop or desktop to raise their hand when they wish to contribute. People can remove their masks when speaking so we can hear them more clearly. As usual, I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are on silent or switched off.

I also want to explain some limitation with regard to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses with regard to references made by the witnesses to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the precincts of the Houses of the Oireachtas is protected pursuant to the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. However, a number of today's witnesses are giving evidence remotely from places outside the parliamentary precincts. As such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as witnesses physically present on campus. Such witnesses have already been advised and they may think it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter.

Witnesses are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity witnesses will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

To assist the broadcasting service and the Debates Office, I ask that members, where possible, direct their questions to a specific witness because it will be a bit more difficult today. If a witness has not been referred to, I ask that the witness would state his or her name before responding.

I now invite the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, to make his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Good afternoon. The appropriation account for Vote 29 - Communications, Climate Action and Environment had total gross expenditure of €587 million in 2019. This was distributed across six expenditure programmes of varying value.

The largest expenditure programme was in relation to broadcasting, accounting for €260 million, or 44% of the total spent in 2019. That programme was substantially funded by television licence fee receipts, which totalled just under €223 million in 2019. Most of the expenditure under the programme was in the form of grants of almost €197 million to RTÉ and €36 million to TG4. Almost €15 million was paid into the broadcasting fund, which is distributed by the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI. A little over €11 million was paid to An Post in respect of its costs of collecting television licence fees on behalf of the Department. Responsibility for this programme transferred to the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media in 2020.

The Department spent €185 million on the energy programme in 2019, of which €151 million was expended on energy efficiency programmes promoted by the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI. Expenditure on this programme has been increasing rapidly. The spend in 2019 represented an increase of 18% when compared to the outturn for 2018.

The Department spent more than €61 million on the environment and waste management programme in 2019. More than half of this went to support the operations of the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA. Members may wish to note that, separately from the Vote, the Department also controls the Environment Fund. This is funded from levies on the landfill of waste and on plastic bag usage, which are kept separate from the Vote and accounted for in a separate account. In 2019, the Department spent in excess of €37 million from the Environment Fund on environmental projects and initiatives.

Expenditure on the communications programme in 2019 was significantly less than the amount provided in the Estimate and through deferred capital spending carried over from 2018. The total available was almost €97 million, in anticipation of significant expenditure on the national broadband plan, NBP. The outturn expenditure of €25 million included just €6 million in respect of the plan.

The Department spent just over €34 million under the inland fisheries programme, mainly in grant support for Inland Fisheries Ireland, IFI. Finally, almost €21 million was spent on a range of services covered by the natural resources programme. More than half of that expenditure related to the specialist functions and services of the Geological Survey of Ireland, GSI.

Appropriations in aid of the Vote amounted to €236 million, including television licence fee receipts referred to earlier. The surplus remaining at the year end was approximately €86 million. The Department got the agreement of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform to carry over €27 million in unspent capital funding to 2020. The balance of €59 million was due for surrender to the Central Fund of the Exchequer. Separately, the Department received €123 million in relation to the operations of the EU emissions trading system, as disclosed in note 4.3. This was not available to the Vote or otherwise to the Department for spending, and was also transferred to the Central Fund.

For the second year in succession, my audit report draws attention to a disclosure by the Accounting Officer in the statement on internal financial control that material instances of non-compliance with national procurement rules occurred in respect of contracts that operated in the year. These non-compliant procurements related to a wide range of contracts that were either extended beyond their original contract terms or were awarded without following the appropriate competitive tendering processes.

Members may wish to note that the Department was responsible for oversight of a broad range of public sector bodies, including regulators and a number of major commercial State bodies that do not receive ongoing grant funding. The bodies are listed in an appendix to the appropriation account. Responsibility for oversight of broadcasting-related bodies has transferred away from the Department in line with the redistribution of functions referred to earlier.

To conclude, I draw the committee's attention to the need for a correction in note 5.1. This note presents figures for the number of full-time equivalent staff employed in the Department and in the agencies funded from the Vote. In preparing for this meeting, we identified that the comparative agency staff number for 2018 was incorrect because it also included staff numbers for some of the Department's non-Vote funded agencies. The anomaly in the figures was picked up by the audit and should have been corrected but due to an oversight, it was not followed through. For the record, the correct comparative 2018 figure for full-time equivalent agency staff is 843. The correct comparative total staff figure for 2018 is 1,238.

Chairman

I thank the Comptroller and Auditor General and ask the Secretary General, Mr. Griffin, to make his opening statement.

Mr. Mark Griffin

I am here today to discuss the 2019 audited Appropriation Account for Vote 29, the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment. As the committee will be aware, the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, our new guise, was established following the reconfiguration of a number of Departments by the Government last June and a transfer of functions order was made in September 2020 formally assigning the broadcasting and media functions to the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media. This transfer will impact on the 2020 Appropriation Account but has no impact on the 2019 Appropriation Account, which is under examination today.

As requested by the committee, I have provided some advance briefing for the meeting and so I propose to keep my opening statement short.

Total gross expenditure under the Vote in 2019 amounted to €587 million, some 14% or €93 million below the budgetary allocation of €680 million, including capital carryover. The underspend is primarily due to the contract for the national broadband plan not being signed until late 2019 and projects under the climate action fund not proceeding to delivery during 2019.

My Department has a key policy development and co-ordination role in Ireland’s transition to a low carbon, climate resilient economy. The climate action plan, designed to reduce emissions by 30% by 2030, was published in June 2019 with implementation of a wide range of actions across 13 Departments and 40 agencies. The first progress report, published in October 2019, showed an 85% completion rate for measures due by the end of quarter 3 of that year.

Using less energy and using it more efficiently is one of the most cost effective ways to take action on climate change. The Department invested a total of some €185 million under its energy programme in 2019, an increase of almost €10 million over what was originally allocated to this programme. Of this, capital expenditure of €104 million supported energy efficiency measures in more than 24,700 homes and 475 public, private and commercial buildings, while also supporting around 4,500 jobs throughout the country.

Measures aimed at decarbonising electricity generation and promoting the electrification of heat and transport were progressed. Work on the development of a new renewable electricity support scheme continued throughout 2019 and the second phase of the support scheme for renewable heat opened in June that year. Some 4,700 electric vehicles were grant aided in 2019 and by the end of 2019 over 15,500 electric vehicles were under taxation in Ireland. This upward trend has continued in 2020, notwithstanding the overall reduction in new car sales last year. Spend on the electric vehicle, EV, home charger scheme, introduced in 2018, increased in 2019 reflecting the increase in sales of EVs.

In 2019, the Department committed €10 million from the climate action fund to the ESB ecars project to promote the charging network across Ireland and this has leveraged a further €10 million investment from ESB. In total, seven projects, with approval of up to €77 million in support, moved into the validation stage in 2019 and projects approved under this first call for applications are expected to leverage total investments of €300 million. The climate action fund was established on a statutory basis with effect from 1 August last year and preparations are under way to launch a second call for applications for support from the fund allowing both public and private bodies to apply to contribute to the achievement of Ireland’s climate and energy targets in a cost-effective manner.

Some €25 million of the Department’s allocation was spent on communications, multimedia developments and the information society in 2019. Within this total, expenditure to support digital entrepreneurship and to promote digital inclusion among small businesses and citizens amounted to €3.4million.

The contract for the national broadband plan was signed in November that year and will ensure that a future-proofed high speed broadband network will be deployed to support people living and working in rural Ireland. Covering 96% of Ireland’s land mass, the intervention area includes more than 544,000 premises, including almost 100,000 businesses and farms along with 695 schools. The current deployment plan forecasts premises passed in all counties within the first two years. At this stage, survey and design work is under way across every county and 243 broadband connection points have been provided with high speed connectivity.

In other sectoral areas covered by my Department, funding to support public service broadcasting amounted to €247 million in 2019. Investment of over €55 million was targeted at the sustainable management of our natural resources and inland fisheries and a further €62 million on the protection of our natural environment and the transition to a resource-efficient circular economy. Along with my colleagues, I look forward to assisting committee members with any questions they may have.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Griffin. We move now to the committee members. The lead speaker today is Deputy Catherine Murphy, who has 15 minutes. Deputy Neasa Hourigan has ten minutes and each member after that will have five minutes. I ask members to co-operate as this is the first meeting we are doing remotely in respect of the witnesses. I will indicate to Deputy Murphy after 12 minutes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I thank the Chairman. I welcome our witnesses. Obviously this is not an ideal format but it is better than not being able to conduct the meeting at all. I will try to go through the questions quickly and I would appreciate succinct responses from the witnesses to allow me get through as much as possible.

Will the witnesses clarify the number of whole-time equivalent staff in the Department and whether there are vacancies? What is the reason for the difference? It was before the Department broke up or the broadcasting section transferred to the new Department.

Chairman

Will Deputy Murphy direct her question to a specific witness?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The question is to Mr. Griffin.

Mr. Mark Griffin

I am sorry; I was on mute. We have about 410 staff in the Department. When that translates into full-time equivalents I think it is around 380. The number that transferred out was quite small. I think it was about a dozen staff in the broadcasting sector of the Department. It is a smallish, policy-focused section. One of the challenges that not just the Deputy but I face when looking at numbers in the Department is the level of churn we are experiencing. We had a discussion with our human resources, HR, people in the Department on Monday and we had 66 people move into the Department during the course of 2020, bearing in mind that we are talking about an overall number of 400, and 52 people move out. That is a combination of retirements, mobility, job sharing and so on so the picture in terms of numbers in any Department at any point in time is very fluid.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I thank Mr. Griffin. I want to move on to the national broadband plan and the number of connection points.

It was supposed to be 300 within the first 12 months. It looks like it is less than that. Mr. Griffin might tell us exactly what it is at this point. Penalties were included in the contract. Have penalties been applied for the underachievement of the numbers set out in the first 12 months?

Mr. Mark Griffin

Some 298 broadband connection points were envisaged in year 1 of the contract. Year 1 extends from January 2020 to January 2021. Forty-seven of them withdrew. That is entirely a matter for the original project promotee, if I can use that term. Twenty-two were added. The net figure was then 273. Of the 273, 247 have been connected, with the balance to be connected by the end of January. We think we are in good shape in meeting the target of 273. Among the 273 connections, 73 are for schools. The issue of penalties does not arise because the original target of 298 has been stepped back on the basis of a number of entities that put them forward as broadband connection points having withdrawn from the process.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

There were other performance targets in the contract. Have any of them not been met and have any penalties applied?

Mr. Mark Griffin

No. After year 1, given the circumstances that NBI, like every construction company, finds itself in, there has been significant progress on the contract. In short, there are no targets that have not been met.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Has the overall cost decreased or increased? It is not that long since the contract was signed but where are we now?

Mr. Mark Griffin

The cost provided for at contract signing was €2.977 billion. That included subsidies and VAT. There was subsequently a Revenue decision which knocked €270 million off the VAT bill, so the overall cost has moved to €2.7 billion. Based on our engagement with NBI, with which we have extensive governance arrangements in place, there are no indications yet of cost increases for the project.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

There is other additional expenditure that the Department picks up. I got names of some firms in a reply to a parliamentary question. The same firms recur in 2018 and 2019, including Analysys Mason, Deloitte, KPMG, and Mason, Hayes & Curran. Why is the Department picking up those costs? Why are they not part of the national broadband plan? Will those costs recur?

Mr. Mark Griffin

Those are costs that arose from the appointment of advisers by the Department to assist us in running the procurement process. It included companies such as KPMG, Analysys Mason and Mason, Hayes & Curran which supported us over the five or six year period of the procurement process, right up to the signing of the final tender. We retendered in the course of late 2019 and in 2020. We believe there will be an ongoing need for commercial and technical advice. The Deputy mentioned Analysys Mason. It operates in that bailiwick when providing services to us. Three of the companies that were with us, KPMG, Mason, Hayes & Curran, and PwC, did not make it through the new tender process. They have been replaced by William Fry and Ernst & Young, with Analysys Mason still on board.

We will continue to use some of that technical expertise over the next few years. We have a big and strong team in the Department. We have about 30 staff working on the national broadband plan, NBP. As we build up our governance capacity in the Department, we hope that the reliance on external contractors will decline over the next couple of years.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I ask Mr. Griffin to provide the committee with numbers as to what the outlay is.

Mr. Mark Griffin

I will not do it now as there are a lot of numbers involved. We have answered parliamentary questions on this over the past couple of years. I will update the figures and send them to the committee.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Great. On Analysys Mason, I remember when the report was produced in 2018, there was considerable criticism at the time about the lack of transparency in pricing and on competitive practices in respect of the metropolitan area network services, MANS, contract. I remember it coming from BT and probably others. Following the publication of that report, almost 12 months later an announcement of an immediate reduction in the costs was made. Obviously, the object of the NBP is to pass houses and offer people a connection. While it is not that each house or premises is going to be connected, for it to be sufficiently attractive, it has to be cost-effective for the end user. Is that the work that Analysys Mason is doing? Has that work been updated? What are the findings in respect of the actual end user costs?

Mr. Mark Griffin

There are two parts to that question. I will deal with one of them and then I will ask my colleague, Fergal Mulligan to come in. One part of it is the question that the Deputy posed to me at a previous committee meeting on the pricing of products on the Enet services, the MAN services, which are part of the overall NBP infrastructure at this stage. A number of issues were raised in the Analysys Mason report including inter-company transfer pricing and whether Enet was complying with the terms of the contract that we have in place for the concession agreement on the MANS. The former Minister asked ComReg to review that. ComReg commissioned PwC to carry out that review. The report has been submitted to us. My understanding is that in overall terms, the report is positive regarding Enet's compliance with the concession agreement. Subject to final clearance internally according to our own procedures, our intention is to publish the report, probably as early as next week. It may drift into the following week.

The second point raised by the Deputy is the equivalency of pricing for people living in rural Ireland to people living in urban Ireland, if I am picking her up correctly, and how that is managed in terms of connection costs. I ask Fergal Mulligan, who is the programme director for the national broadband plan, to comment on that issue.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I ask that the response is very brief. I have a few other questions I wish to ask.

Mr. Fergal Mulligan

The cost to end users and businesses in the intervention area under the plan will be €100 to connect if the retail service provider actually charges it. As of next week, the likes of Eir, Sky, Vodafone and many small companies - up to 17 or 18 - will be selling services to consumers. I expect that many of them will offer a service with no connection cost and the rental every month will be no different to what the Deputy or others in Dublin pay for Virgin Media, Eir etc, namely, €40, €50 or €60 per month. Those will be the charges to end users.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Finally, on the NBP, has a review been done of the tendering process? It went on from 2015 to 2019. We ended up with only one bidder.

We do not need to go back over the points on which we had engagement previously. Has a review happened, and will that review be published?

Chairman

There are three minutes left.

Mr. Mark Griffin

At the time the preferred bidder was appointed in April 2019, and again in November 2019 when the final contract was signed, we would have published a lot of information around the cost-benefit analysis. We would have covered published correspondence with colleagues of mine in other Government Departments, and we would have published a redacted version of the contract, albeit the version that was published was very extensive. To the best of my knowledge, and I would ask Mr. Mulligan to comment briefly on this, I believe that a review was finalised but I do not know whether it was published. I will check that and come back to the Deputy.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Mr. Griffin will check that and come back.

RTÉ was in the news earlier this week with regard to the top earners with substantial salaries. We have had RTÉ in highlighting that it is strapped for cash. It is a concern that there appears to be substantial money laid out for some of its employees, while I recognise that most of them are self-employed. Obviously, not all RTÉ employees are on those kinds of salaries, and this was highlighted during the week, but there is an issue. RTÉ commissioned the Eversheds Sutherland report. Is Mr. Griffin satisfied with the implementation of recommendations at the end of that report? One recommendation was to develop guidelines for managers on when to engage a contractor or an employee, and to determine the appropriate classification. People were being employed as contractors over a protracted time where really they should have been employees. Is that being followed through?

Mr. Mark Griffin

To the best of my knowledge it is. As I understand it, the director general of RTÉ wrote to the committee at the end of 2019 to give an update on where things were at vis-à-vis the Eversheds Sutherland report. There was an examination of all 433 contractors, or freelancers, in the organisation. There were question marks over 157 of those contractors. Since then the work in dealing with the 157 has been ongoing. There have been ongoing engagements with the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Social Protection, and RTÉ has updated the relevant RTÉ policies and implemented training and awareness on these issues for all managers within the organisation. I do not have more up-to-date information because the functions have been moved from our Department, effectively, since the middle of last year. As I understand it, however, that work is substantially done but probably with bits and pieces to be finally swept up. If the Deputy wishes, I will get an update note from the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media and include it in my Department's response to the committee.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

That would be great. I thank Mr. Griffin.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Good afternoon to everyone. I thank the witnesses for being here. As I only have ten minutes I will try to fly through a couple of areas. I will start with cybersecurity. I am not sure to whom I will direct these questions. Where does the Department report the cost of the cybersecurity centre and is there a particular reason it is not shown as a separate Vote in the accounts?

Mr. Mark Griffin

This matter came up previously with the Comptroller and Auditor General. Note 210 of the accounts refers to an amount of €1.6 million. This covers part of the funding made available for cybersecurity. This covers IT infrastructure, training and so on. There is another chunk of money for pay, which amounts to approximately €1.8 million per annum. The two amounts total €3.4 million per annum.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Is there any particular reason the funds are not shown together as a Vote?

Mr. Mark Griffin

There is probably a degree of sensitivity around this, given the nature of the issue that we are dealing with. One includes an amount and certain things can be extrapolated from that, which may not be to the benefit of the centre itself in terms of the functions it has to discharge.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

That is all right. I thank Mr. Griffin. The National Cyber Security Centre shares an intellectual space with a number of other organisations, and some of the work is parallel, tangential or even complementary. It is not very clear from the numbers sometimes what exactly is involved in the operations of the organisation. Could Mr. Griffin outline the communications framework between the National Cyber Security Centre, the Office of the Data Protection Commission, the Office of the Government Chief Information Officer, OGCIO, and An Garda Síochána? I have been reading the cybersecurity strategy published in 2019 quite carefully and I still cannot get a hold on what is happening between all the groups that are responsible for complementary issues.

Mr. Mark Griffin

I will ask Mr. Ó hÓbáin to speak about elements of that. He chaired the steering group, which led to the development of the 2019 strategy.

Mr. Ciarán Ó hÓbáin

I will be brief but I am happy to go further it if would help. There is very extensive engagement across the agencies. It is a factor that while some of the numbers that are working in these areas are quite small, they are very connected. No. 2 in the strategy concerns threat intelligence and analysis. The link-up with the new national security analysis centre located in the Department of An Taoiseach has been key. There is very strong co-operation there, both in terms of governance and at a structural level through that forum and then on a day-to-day basis in terms of protecting critical national infrastructure and dealing with incidents concerning threat sharing groups. When one gets to the threat sharing group level, a broad range of stakeholders is involved and that includes An Garda Síochána and the Defence Forces.

I will speak about the development of the current strategy. The Deputy referred to the OGCIO, and there is also the Departments of Justice, Foreign Affairs, Defence and the Taoiseach. They were all in the room for the development of the strategy and they sit on the steering group that monitors the delivery.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I would welcome a quick answer to my next question. What level of implementation are we at in terms of the 2019 to 2024 security strategy?

Mr. Ciarán Ó hÓbáin

The steering group conducts a quarterly review. The first year has just concluded.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Are we on target?

Mr. Ciarán Ó hÓbáin

We have our chart, which is green, amber and red. There is nothing red. It is predominantly green. Very good progress was made in 2019. One of the few areas where we were behind was the establishment of a cross-government forum and getting the person to lead that, but that has commenced. We are on target and going well.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I will conclude my questions on that issue. Ireland is a hub now for private cybersecurity firms and part of the Department's role is policy. Considering the current climate and recent cybersecurity events such as the SolarWinds Orion breach, and the Comptroller and Auditor General's previous remarks on the inadequate funding for cybersecurity, does Mr. Ó hÓbáin consider that the National Cyber Security Centre is properly funded to deal with the threat facing it?

Mr. Mark Griffin

I will respond to that before Mr. Ó hÓbáin comes in. If one asks anybody who has a cybersecurity centre in any state, he or she would be remiss and probably foolish to say any of the facilities are well-resourced because the situation is so dynamic. We have 26 excellent staff in the National Cyber Security Centre. We are near finalisation in the recruitment process for a director and chief technology officer. We have a separate policy piece in the Department. The work Mr. Ó hÓbáin is doing now is taking account of the 2019 strategy and looking at what additional resources are required to support that. A capacity review is under way and we expect it to be completed by the end of quarter 2. It will examine whether we have enough resources and, if not, how many extra resources we need, and what type of people we need in terms of numbers and levels. In truth, the effective functioning of any cybersecurity centre is less about capital investment and more about investment in human capital, which is where our focus is.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Is the publication of policy guidance for the private sector in particular imminent?

Mr. Mark Griffin

If I interpret the Deputy correctly, I must inform her that we constantly engage with operators of essential services and digital service providers on the extent to which they are up to speed on their cybersecurity capacity and resilience. We have 67 operators of essential services designated in water, health, energy and transport. We are constantly in contact with them - the NCSC is. We constantly issue advisories in the event that an incident is discovered, including the one the Deputy mentioned about solar winds. Advisories issued to all the entities that engage with the NCSC. This is a very dynamic area and policy is updated on an ongoing basis. Finally on that, the network and information systems directive, which provides the legal basis for how we operate, has also been updated at EU level.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

The submissions outline a spend of €141 million on energy upgrades across several schemes. I find it difficult to unpack some of those numbers. I ask for a ballpark percentage or a breakdown of the €141 million. How much of that represents grants to the 18,500 households outlined in the grant scheme or the deep retrofit? How much was delivered to the 3,500 households in danger of energy poverty? Either a percentage or a figure will be fine.

Mr. Mark Griffin

I have figures, which I will try to give to the Deputy, for the spend in 2019. The better energy homes, which is the private grants, was €24 million, with 18,500 homes upgraded. Better energy warmer homes, which is the critical one in terms of energy policy, was almost €40 million with 3,100 homes upgraded. Warmth and well-being, which is the pilot Dublin-based project, had €8.4 million spent and 340 homes were upgraded. I could go on, but I am conscious of time. We will get a detailed table which shows spend and output - I have it in front of me - from 2017 to 2021. Obviously, we only focus on spend for 2021, but we will show the targets, as it were, for what we hope to achieve in 2021.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I appreciate that. Am I out of time?

Chairman

The Deputy has one minute left.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

In 2019, the climate action fund remained largely unspent and planned spending included €10 million on a partnership with ESB on the roll-out of EV charging points, something I would love to see. However, €10 million represents two thirds of the spending from the climate action fund. Mr. Griffin outlined that in 2019 only 0.3% of cars on Irish roads were electric. Even with the increase to 15,000, that is still less than 1%. Does the Department have any particular performance indicators or guidelines that help it decide how to spend its funds as it relates to the impact it will have on Irish people?

Mr. Mark Griffin

Looking at that particular programme, we have done the studies based on the output targets set in the climate action plan for delivery of electric vehicles. We have scoped the design of the network accordingly. We are satisfied that up to 2024, the network as is and as designed, including the ESB e-charger scheme - we see private sector companies coming in on that as well, is adequate. There will need to be substantial scaling up of that. A strategy to be finalised in the coming months will deal with that area in terms of how we get to the 936,000 or how we get to a bigger figure, if that is what is required on foot of the review of the climate action plan to be completed in the middle of this year. I have lots of figures on EVs showing where we stand. I am happy to provide that to the committee as part of a written response.

Chairman

The Deputy's time is up.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I thank Mr. Griffin, but I was actually looking for the performance indicators or guidelines for the Department in decision-making.

Mr. Mark Griffin

We have key performance indicators, KPIs, for all our programmes. The KPIs are published as part of the Estimates process every year. Our annual report for 2019, which is published, sets out our performance vis-à-vis all the KPIs.

Aside from a small number, we have either hit or exceeded them.

Deputy Colm Burke

I thank the witnesses for the presentation. Mr. Griffin referred in his statement to 544,000 premises, including approximately 100,000 businesses and farms, where intervention must occur. Will he set out for us the timeline for the numbers over the next four years? After year one, what kind of numbers will have connection, and what will be the numbers for years two, three and four? Will targets have to be reached?

Mr. Mark Griffin

I will keep it as short as I can but I will set out the progress made in 2020. This is really important in terms of how the programme for 2021 to 2023 will be framed, which is what the Deputy is interested in. The key concern of the Deputy, along with every householder in the intervention area, is when the connections will happen. There will be an announcement later today that National Broadband Ireland, NBI, has made the first connections in the Deputy's own county around Carrigaline. NBI is working across 26 counties and has surveyed more than 160,000 premises, with 120,000 premises progressing through or having completed detailed design. Construction is under way in 19,000 premises and will be under way across every county on approximately 130,000 premises by the end of the year. That is construction and we expect, by the end of the year, to have approximately 70,000 premises completed.

I may ask Mr. Mulligan to comment on this and he describes it very well. The first year of this contract was about building the runway, and once it is built - it is fairly well built - we will see a flow of premises through the final construction phases starting to ramp up very considerably during the course of 2021, 2022 and 2023. Mr. Mulligan is very close to what is happening on the ground. I know the Deputy has asked many parliamentary questions on this matter over the past while.

Mr. Fergal Mulligan

The main progress this year is that the first connections are happening this month and will continue over the coming months. In particular counties there will be locations around Cork, Ballinasloe, Cavan and Limerick that will see several thousand premises getting a fibre to the home connection in the next couple of months. The good news is those premises will get a service of at least 500 Mbps; it is not an "up to" service. Businesses will get 1 Gbps and more. That will happen at prices equivalent to those available in urban areas.

There is a target of 70,000 connections and the initial targets in the contract were higher. There is a slight delay of a few months and there have been significant challenges, as alluded to by Mr. Griffin, in all construction contracts across the country due to Covid-19. Even in recent weeks this has been a real challenge, given the number of staff across the country either in isolation or who have Covid-19. That has presented many challenges, but notwithstanding those, there will be more than 70,000 premises connected across many counties.

Deputy Colm Burke

I know there are complications because of Covid-19 etc. I hope we can resolve those between now and the end of July or early August. Of the 544,000 premises to be connected, what number will be connected three years from then?

Mr. Fergal Mulligan

I expect at least half the 544,000 premises will have that 500 Mbps service available to them across the majority of the intervention area. It is currently a seven-year build.

Deputy Colm Burke

I have another matter related to planning. An area in my constituency had more than 100 houses built but there is no landline or mobile phone access. It is only after a hard battle that we got some houses connected. Has there been any communication with local authorities? Construction of houses is not allowed unless there is access to roads, sewers and water, but access to the Internet is now a key ingredient when we speak about building homes.

Has there been any communication with local authorities on that issue? Do we now need to make it part of the planning process?

Mr. Fergal Mulligan

It is not an unreasonable question. Obviously, planning is in the ambit of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage at this stage. I think that the point posited by Deputy Colm Burke is reasonable. I suppose, from the point of view of those 100 houses, because they will appear in the amber area they are in line for connection irrespective of the other difficulties they have experienced. They are encompassed within our plan in terms of provision of that high-speed connectivity.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I want to ask about the delay in releasing reports, particularly for RTÉ. Until a few days ago, we had not received the 2019 and 2020 annual reports, let alone the list of salaries for top earners for 2017 to 2019, inclusive. Recently, the director general of RTÉ stated in an interview that in 2008, RTÉ had given a public commitment to publish the details of its ten highest earners and has done so since then. Given the substantial annual investment the State makes in RTÉ, can the Secretary General advise when the 2020 annual report will be published? Is he in a position to give an undertaking that RTÉ will start to publish its list of top salaries on an annual basis and the annual report within a timeframe that most people would consider reasonable?

Mr. Mark Griffin

Without wanting to sound smart, I am afraid that I cannot because those functions have transferred into the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media since September of last year, so the timing of the publication of those reports is not within my control. I do not know the reason the report was only published in the past few weeks. I know there can be delays in the submission of reports to Departments. There can be delays in the analysis and assessment of such reports within the Departments themselves before they are brought to the Government and before the Government approves them for publication, submission to and laying before the Houses of the Oireachtas.

Deputy Imelda Munster

RTÉ did give a previous public commitment to publish its top earners on an annual basis and clearly it has not done so. As the transfer is relatively recent, prior to that it would have been the responsibility of the Secretary General's Department.

Mr. Mark Griffin

Sure.

Deputy Imelda Munster

In terms of the Department's framework for the oversight of governance at RTÉ, what does his Department have to say about the fact that these commitments were not followed through?

Mr. Mark Griffin

All I can say at this stage is that I regret the fact that they were not published earlier. If they should have been published in my time as Secretary General where I had responsibility for the functions, then I can only apologise for the fact that they were not and that we did not put the necessary pressure on RTÉ for their submission at an earlier date.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Was there a reason for that?

Mr. Mark Griffin

No.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Was it just a lack of oversight?

Mr. Mark Griffin

I would not say that it was a lack of oversight because the oversight arrangements in the Department now, and in the new Department, are very extensive. I would say that this is not a lack of oversight but perhaps was overlooked at the time.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Most people would find the salaries of the top ten earners at RTÉ to be outrageous and, given the massive public funding that RTÉ receives, a lot of members of the public would find it unjustifiable, which I suppose is a term that people use.

I ask Mr. Griffin to outline the factors determining salaries like that. Is he aware of them?

Mr. Mark Griffin

These are commercial decisions made by the board of RTÉ. The board makes judgment calls on issues such as the viewership and advertising revenue that individuals and the shows they lead on would bring into the organisation and so on. These are commercial decisions.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Mr. Griffin referred to viewership figures and commercial decisions. In the context of the large amount of public money involved here, is the ability of shows to attract sponsorship a factor in the decision-making? I can give an example about which I am curious. There was a presenter with a weekend show and RTÉ was seeking a sponsor for that show for more than a year. I think the amount involved in the sponsorship deal was €195,000 but the presenter's salary was in the region of €220,000. If one compares that salary to the loss of sponsorship, one can probably assume the figures were more or less the same. Obviously we have not seen value for money recognition but can we expect to see value for money in the 2020 figures vis-à-vis the salaries of the top stars?

Mr. Mark Griffin

I cannot comment on the 2020 figures but would stress that RTÉ is a commercial company. It must balance and weigh up a whole range of factors in making determinations on both the revenue and expenditure side of its accounts. I have no doubt that these are considerations that RTÉ takes into account, at both director general and board level, in determining the mix-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Does the Department ever ask those questions, given the amount of public money involved?

Mr. Mark Griffin

No, these are commercial decisions. We have an oversight agreement that looks at the performance of RTÉ in the round. If the Department started to stray into the decision-making process on those particular issues, we could find ourselves straying into other areas and issues that are rightly within the purview of a commercial semi-State body. RTÉ is a commercial semi-State organisation and it has to make calls. I acknowledge that it is funded through television licence receipts but there are mechanisms in place for monitoring, overseeing and governing that.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Reference was made earlier to contractors. In 2016, seven of the top ten earners in RTÉ were contractors as opposed to employees. Does Mr. Griffin know why a majority of the top earners would opt to be a contractor rather than an employee?

Mr. Mark Griffin

No, and I am not in a position to comment on that.

Chairman

Deputy Devlin is next and he has five minutes.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I welcome the witnesses. I will start with the Comptroller and Auditor General's report and specifically the part dealing with concerns around tendering. I understand that it is the second year running that this issue has been highlighted. I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to comment on the depth and breadth of this issue. How extensive has the lack of tendering been and what kinds of contracts are we talking about? I ask Mr. Griffin to outline the remedies put in place by the Department last year to correct this.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

In terms of the extent of the issue, the number of contracts that were non-compliant totalled 36 and in each case, the expenditure was in excess of €25,000. The total spend was just under €10 million.

Those are the 2019 figures. I would have to go back and dig out the 2018 figures but I can do that, and I think the Accounting Officer would have more detail on the individual contractors and the reasons a compliant procurement procedure was not followed.

Mr. Mark Griffin

I am happy to come in on that. Looking at the situation in 2019, as the Comptroller and Auditor General has said, the total non-compliant spend was just short of €9.9 million. The bulk of that was, at least in terms of value, across 13 contracts, 12 NBP contracts. I touched on this with Deputy Murphy. These were services we had procured to assist us in the NBP procurement process. They amounted to €5.5 million of the €9 million in non-compliant spend. Effectively, we were in the final stages of an award. It would have been simply untenable to change horses at that stage. Doing that would have represented bad value for money and would have set back the project. The other big contract was for €2.3 million. This was an extension of the contract for the National Digital Research Centre, pending the completion of a procurement process. That process is now completed and we have a new provider, a new concessionaire, in place. Some 79% of the contract values related to both the NBP and the NDRC. Looking at the 36 contracts that were non-compliant in 2019, four of them, to the value of €420,000, remain non-compliant. We are going to get them resolved during the course of 2021.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Obviously, this is a recurring issue. I hear what Mr. Griffin is saying, that the vast bulk of this relates to the NBP in 2019. What was the issue in 2018 and how is it going to be corrected going into 2021?

Mr. Mark Griffin

There were similar issues in 2018. There were contracts that related to the national broadband plan. I think we may have started our first extension of the NDRC at that stage. Some of the contracts called out in 2019 were also the contracts that were the start of the difficulty, for want of a better term, and commenced in 2018. We have done a lot since then, and that is the key piece from a governance perspective. We have a procurement unit, we have updated our guidelines, we have a procurement toolbox for staff, we have 190 staff who went on training and we have a help desk in place. We see that reflected in a far healthier position in 2020, looking at the Circular 40/02 cases. We had 11 non-compliant contracts compared with the 36, but their value is substantially lower. It is €1.6 million. At the risk of my coming back this time next year and being quizzed on the same issue, I am quite confident about the work that has been done in 2019 in terms of elevating this as an issue within the Department. It is obviously deeply uncomfortable for me to come before the Committee of Public Accounts to explain this. Elevating the issue, training people, a very good procurement unit in the Department under-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I am sorry to cut across Mr. Griffin. Is the procurement unit a new unit as a result of the 2018 accounts or is it something that had been in the pipeline from 2018?

Chairman

The Deputy's time is up.

Mr. Mark Griffin

It is a unit that had been in place but it is a reflection of the increased level of activity by the unit across the organisation, the level of guidance and updated procedures it has put in place and the level of support it is providing to staff in the Department on every single procurement process.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

If Mr. Griffin does not have the information on the following, I ask him to come back to me or to the committee on it. I understand from his opening remarks that €11 million was collected for the TV licence. Will he give a comparative figure as to how much money is outstanding to be collected?

Mr. Mark Griffin

The €11 million related to the fee that is paid to An Post for the collection of service charges. There is a level of evasion of about 12.5%. I think the loss of income through the TV licence amounts to about €40 million.

The committee will be aware of the commitment in the programme for Government to establish the future of media commission chaired by Professor Brian MacCraith, which has been acted on. Funding is one of the things at which it will look and about which it will produce a report by July 2021. We hope to crack that particular nut once and for all.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

In terms of the-----

Chairman

I will let the Deputy back in for a second round. It is just that we have gone way over time.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

I thank the witnesses for coming before us today. I will cover two areas. The first is An Post and the postal office network. Obviously An Post has been going through a revitalisation, resurgence and transformation over the past number of years but, of course, that involves closing down some post offices. In my own area, this is because no one was willing to take over the business in Monkstown and Foxrock. There is a significant network of connected Government-funded offices. What has the Department in mind for securing those? Has it had a conversation around additional Government services that could be delivered to people through that network given its dispersion and the fact people are spending more and more time in their local areas?

Mr. Mark Griffin

Over the past number of months, anybody, particularly in rural Ireland, would recognise the huge value An Post has provided in terms of its functions. A strategic plan was put in place in 2019 as part of an injection in terms of delivering the plan. A long-term loan was provided by the State. State aid was approved and secured for that. The figure is €30 million - €15 million to support the universal service obligation and €15 million to support the network. The network has done very well over the past couple of years. I do not want this to be construed in the wrong way but An Post has looked at the services it can provide through the network. We have the recent report from Grant Thornton, which An Post is considering. The Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, has met with An Post and the IPU about that. There is active engagement on it. When one looks at the ubiquity of the Internet, digital and all the rest, one can see there is a significant enough cohort of people who are not comfortable with engaging with the Internet. This is a piece the Government needs to look at on a whole-of-government basis. A report was prepared under the last Government that we are looking at updating with a view to bringing it to Government to see what additional service might be capable of being channelled through the post office network. I expect that to happen over the next couple of weeks.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

Without breaching the confidentiality of that in terms of the Cabinet, does the Department have any sort of services in mind? Is there anything Mr. Griffin can talk to us about? Obviously, it is a significant network and there is a public-private element to it. When one thinks about the sort of things people come to Deputies about or even queries about driver licences or motor tax, one can see that it is a physical network operated on behalf of the State and there is nothing else like it. Is there anything Mr. Griffin has in mind?

Mr. Mark Griffin

The examples cited by the Deputy would be the kind of things we think would be appropriate. There are issues around procurement and the existing mechanisms whereby those services are discharged at Government level and how it might cut across that. I do not want to go into it in too much detail.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

Fair enough.

Mr. Mark Griffin

It is safe to say that we are usually conscious of the importance of the network from an economic and social perspective. We want to make sure the network remains strong, ensure that additional services are channelled through the network and look at how the Government on a whole-of-government basis can play its part in that regard.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

There is another element to it as well, namely, the distribution network that can be offered by An Post given the investment in electric vehicles and the connection and knowledge of the country generally - the knowledge of the addresses.

Clearly, there has been a major shift in consumption online. We know some of the terms and conditions with which people in that economy work. An Post has a full-time workforce and electric vans. Can we use these assets - the people and electric vehicles - in stronger ways?

Mr. Mark Griffin

Absolutely, that conversation is under way. The steps the chief executive and the board have taken to electrify the vehicle fleet within the Dublin region are a credit to the organisation. I know there is a desire on their part to do more in that area. One thing under consideration is to use the network of post offices as electric vehicle charging points.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

Can I ask another question briefly?

Chairman

It will have to be very brief because we are over time.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

I have another question relating to the Environmental Protection Agency and its interplay with Irish Water. My area is Dún Laoghaire and we have a significant issue with ground wastewater pollution and its impacts there. We see it especially when there is heavy rainfall. I have been following up with Irish Water. What is the role of the EPA in following up with these ongoing long-term investment issues? Can the officials give us some information about the remit of the EPA?

Mr. Mark Griffin

EPA is a key stakeholder in terms of Irish Water's decision-making around its investment programme. For example, EPA would look at Ireland's compliance with the urban wastewater treatment directive, the drinking water directive and the water quality and water framework directives. The EPA produces reports, such as the state of the environment report published during the course of 2020. There is ongoing engagement between the EPA and Irish Water. This is important in framing the nature of the investments that need to be made.

One thing the EPA has done in recent years is maintain a remedial action list. One issue that springs to mind relates to the difficulties that were experienced in Roscommon until some years ago. Irish Water invested significantly and it seems to have addressed that issue well. That was based on the work the EPA did in the remedial action list. All of that feeds into the investment decision-making and the establishment of the overall investment programme by Irish Water.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

That is very helpful.

Deputy Verona Murphy

My thanks to everyone for coming to take part. I have questions that are possibly for Mr. Ó hÓbáin and Mr. Griffin. I wish to say at the outset that in any engagement I have had with the Department I have always found the officials helpful. I hope that continues.

My question is on cybersecurity. I am concerned that we do not have a budget fit to meet the demands of the national cybersecurity strategy. My question is pertinent to today. How vulnerable is our health system in the event of a cyber attack? Has there been a cyber attack recently? What is the most recent attack? Can the officials comment on the recent cyber attacks in Australia and New Zealand?

I compliment and concur with the remarks of Mr. Griffin on An Post as a network. As a rural Deputy, I know those in An Post have been invaluable in terms of communications and the knowledge they have of our rural and most vulnerable residents.

I have engaged a good deal with An Post, especially in respect of the budgetary requirements. Given where we find ourselves now, post-Brexit, An Post is one of the most effective deliverers of parcels in the whole private commercial network. This is simply because An Post is aligned with Revenue. It is well worth investing in it. An Post seems to be more up to date with things than many of our other services. I know Mr. Griffin cannot outline that but I thank him for that and I look forward to seeing what it is.

I wish to discuss the last EPA report issued. I am concerned about our failure to meet carbon emission targets. I know that previously Department officials have said what the cost was from 2013 to 2020.

At the moment the Department has estimated, from the report, that it would be €6 million to €13 million. Could the officials give a little update on that? Is that the final figure and is there a further cost for this year?

Mr. Mark Griffin

I thank the Deputy for her comments on her engagement with the Department. I will make a couple of points on cyber and then on carbon emissions I will hand over to Mr. Frank Maughan who is the Department's principal officer in that particular area and has a good feel for it.

On the funding and capacity of the cybersecurity centre, we will complete that review in 2021. From a Government perspective, once we know what the need and the ask is - and at the risk of being proven wrong by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform later in the year as part of the Estimates process - I am quite comfortable that there is an appreciation within Government of the criticality of resourcing this, whether through money or staff, because this is something that the State cannot afford to get wrong. We need to be fully fighting fit on this particular issue. On the health sector, we mentioned operators of essential services earlier and the health sector and the major hospitals are constituents, they are one of the 67 designated. They do get a level of support from our Department and obviously they have their own capacity through the HSE and perhaps within the individual hospitals themselves.

As for what we have been doing during the pandemic, we have been issuing advisories to the HSE and the individual platforms-----

Chairman

Deputy Murphy has one minute left.

Mr. Mark Griffin

I think I will come back to the Deputy on that in writing because I do not want to eat into her time too much.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I would appreciate that.

Mr. Mark Griffin

An awful lot is being done, however, in terms of supporting the health sector during the Covid crisis. I ask Mr. Maughan to come in on our emissions targets, how much we will fall short by and what is being done to address that.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is okay. I thank Mr. Griffin.

Mr. Frank Maughan

The Department relies on the Environmental Protection Agency reports to estimate the expected shortfall against our targets. The EPA publishes an annual report of emissions inventories as well as a separate annual report of emissions projections and those projections look out over the period to 2040. The most recent report from the agency about projections was published in July 2020. It estimated that for our 2020 targets, we would end up between-----

Chairman

The time is up.

Mr. Frank Maughan

-----2% and 4% below our 2005 levels as against a 20% target. The estimate of the additional costs of funding the purchase of credits to make up that shortfall remains, as the Deputy mentioned, between €6 to 13 million. That has not actually changed as an estimate. It will be another year before we have a final estimate because the 2020 numbers will not be available from the EPA until later this year and it is only at that point will we be able to actually get a final fix on our estimated costs.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I thank the Chairman.

Chairman

I call Deputy Dillon.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I welcome the officials and thank them for the work they have done, especially in these challenging times.

I will begin with the National Broadband Plan. It is a huge issue in my own constituency of Mayo where over 36,360 premises are in the intervention areas. That equates to over 44% of all premises within the county. From the initial detail that was discussed I want to get a sense of where the deployment is within County Mayo. Two areas which have completed their surveys are Castlebar, with over 2,139 premises, and Ballina which has over 2,500. National Broadband Ireland's website talks about the anticipated date for connection. For Castlebar townlands it will be between August and October 2021. Is it correct to say we are still on schedule for this and can the officials provide me with an update on where we are currently at versus the original schedule?

Mr. Mark Griffin

I will ask Mr. Mulligan to come in if he can shed some light on the general position. If we cannot do that, I will come back to the Deputy with a detailed response in writing about the situation in Mayo.

Mr. Fergal Mulligan

I understand that the targets on the website for Castlebar and Ballina are still going ahead, so the couple of thousand people in both of those areas will have that 500 Mbps available to them by the end of the year. National Broadband Ireland, NBI, was hoping to have more done by the end of the year at a national level but things have fallen back by a few months, although that will not impact Castlebar and Ballina to any great extent. The target for this year is 70,000 overall and NBI will be looking to do a hell of a lot more than that in 2022.

Deputy Alan Dillon

On that point, do we expect design, build and construction in each of these townlands? Will NBI be active on the ground over the coming months, with a connection due over the three-month period between August and October?

Mr. Fergal Mulligan

Yes. It means that those particular premises in Ballina and Castlebar can get a connection that can make an order to Sky, Vodafone or Eir. There will be approximately 20 service providers. Westnet Broadband, for example, would be another service provider that will sell fibre in the west. People can make a choice. Anyone can go onto the relevant websites and get that 500 Mbps upfront connection for €100, perhaps without a charge from the retail provider, and will then be charged at €40 or €50 a month. Within that package, those 4,000 or 5,000 people in Ballina and Castlebar will get high-speed broadband, possibly television, a landline and other things.

Many other townlands across Mayo will see vans and trucks of contractors over the course of this and next year. That is what we mean when we talk about "home survey" and "under construction". While 70,000 will be connectable by the end of the year, more than 130,000 will be surveyed and designed over the course of the next 12 months and we will see that coming on stream in 2021. The NBI website is being updated every month as all that gets updated.

Deputy Alan Dillon

That is good to hear because it is probably the number one issue that has brought light to connectivity within rural areas. There is a considerable thirst for information, so having that website updated and accurate is an important step.

Is consideration being given to creating and rolling out an aggregated national retrofit scheme, area by area, that would encompass large numbers of houses? I know such a thing has been piloted in the midlands, but is that something we can expect as part of a roll-out?

Mr. Mark Griffin

The answer is "Yes". A national retrofit scheme was provided for in 2020 and the whole raison d'être for that is to try to build scale and volume to establish a one-stop shop where people can get everything that needs to be done through that one conduit. That is to make the process far simpler for people who want to do that and engage in it. I am conscious of time, but I will give the Deputy a written note on that when we come back to the committee secretariat as a follow-up to this meeting.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I appreciate that and thank Mr. Griffin.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I am sure this is one of the first hearings of the Committee of Public Accounts where our witnesses have not been asked about Eircode. Let me make sure that does not happen. I note in the report that there is an additional spend of €1.53 million and the cumulative total for the project appears to be €32 million. I have seen previously reported figures that the total cost of the project was €38 million. Before I ask my subsequent questions, the witnesses might clarify the total cost of that project.

Mr. Mark Griffin

Just bear with me for one moment while I put my hands on the relevant note. In simple terms, the total cost will be €38 million.

Up until the end of 2019, we spent €27.91 million. That means expenditure of €1.8 million in 2019, including VAT. Much of this expenditure would have been in the set-up phase – the design, encoding a database, the launch and dissemination. Where an increase can be seen, it concerns the ongoing maintenance and dissemination costs, and a small increase in staff costs in the Department.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

There are many people who might be reluctant to encourage the Department to spend more than that. Given that we spent such a substantial amount, I am sure Mr. Griffin was disappointed with the survey showing 60% of people never, or seldom, used the system. What needs to be done now to encourage people to use it? There is a very clever radio advertisement regarding the ambulance service on which I often remark, but I wonder whether real engagement needs to happen with different agencies. For example, we discussed the electoral reform Bill and the new electoral register this morning, yet there appears to be no basis for starting to work with the postcodes. That is the type of proactive engagement we need to make sure the State recoups its expenditure on the Eircode postcodes system.

Mr. Mark Griffin

Absolutely. I have a couple of points on that. I have seen that figure before. Like a lot of things, the particular question that was posed would not have been the question that I would have asked, and that is why a percentage of 60% was elicited. We have Amárach Research appointed under the contract. The research it did in 2019 shows that 99% of the Irish public are aware of Eircode postcodes and that 96% use them.

Considering what has happened, particularly in the course of 2020, including the immediate and massive shift of both workers and businesses to operating online, we have seen a huge uptake in the usage of postcodes. There was a 60% increase in November 2020 relative to November 2019. The total number of look-ups increased from 6 million in 2016 to almost 20 million in 2019. We are seeing that increase on a constant basis, month-on-month. We are seeing a very significant increase in the number of private sector entities using the system in terms of logistics and so on. Banking and insurance companies are included. In the public sector, the system is used for online passport applications. It is used for the census and for Student Universal Support Ireland grants. It is used for property marketing and mobility. We are constantly engaging with our colleagues across government to increase the use of postcodes. They are being stitched into what is known as the national data infrastructure. There are three key pieces of information: the PPSN, the Eircode postcode and a unique business identifier that is in development-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I suspect I am short on time. Is there a plan to review the overall spending and the benefits? The Comptroller and Auditor General previously thought we had not yet realised the benefit of the expenditure. Perhaps there should be a review. The Secretary General might come back to me on that issue.

Mr. Mark Griffin

I am happy that we are in a good place on it but I will revert to the committee with a specific response on the broader issue that was raised.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I thank Mr. Griffin.

Deputy Matt Carthy

I thank Mr. Griffin and his colleagues for being with us this afternoon. I want to ask questions with respect to the Department's relationship with EirGrid. I note the Minister is a shareholder in EirGrid. Could Mr. Griffin give an outline of what that means in practice in terms of the engagements on the management and running of the company?

Mr. Mark Griffin

The company is a commercial semi-State company, with shares held jointly by our Minister and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform. Regarding the sorts of governance arrangements that are in place for EirGrid, the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform jointly agree a letter of expectation.

The most recent one dates from December 2019 to June 2021. It sets out the sorts of things the State wants the company to do, both in terms of financial performance and metrics and in terms of supporting overall Government policy, particularly around the delivery of infrastructure that is necessary to meet our 70% renewable electricity target by 2020. That is the broad framework within which the governance relation between ourselves and EirGrid operates.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Obviously, good financial management is important to the Department and the State because-----

Chairman

Will the Deputy unmute his microphone? His microphone is muted.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Apologies. The point I was making was that there is a vested interest in the Department and the wider Government apparatus that EirGrid is financially successful and prudent because when it is successful it returns a dividend to the State. I understand that dividend has been around €4 million for a number of years. Is that correct?

Mr. Mark Griffin

That sounds about right.

Deputy Matt Carthy

The advertising spend of EirGrid is a very unusual spend, as far as I am concerned, considering that EirGrid does not have any competitors and its customers have no choice but to engage with it. It would appear that advertising spend would be strange. Over the five years leading up to, I think, 2019, EirGrid spent €8.6 million on what is described as selling and advertising. That is €8.1 million more than was approved by the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU. Considering that the State is drawing down dividends of €4 million, that is proportionately a big spend on advertising. Does the Department have a view on the rationale for that or on the fact that it apparently was not approved? Does Mr. Griffin think that is a prudent use of the resources of the company?

Mr. Mark Griffin

I would probably need to understand a bit more context around what that money was used for. The Deputy mentioned the CRU, which regulates EirGrid from the point of view of approving the levels of funding it can spend on the network. The most recent regulatory review, PR5, was approved by the CRU in December. It sets out the allowable investment by EirGrid and by ESB Networks over the next number of years. I am not au fait with that issue but I will come back to the Deputy with a note on it. I will get an explanation from EirGrid as to why that seems to be out of kilter with what-----

Chairman

The Deputy has half a minute left.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Does Mr. Griffin see any rationale as to why a company that has no competitors and whose customers have no choice but to use it would be spending multiples of millions on advertising campaigns? We have all seen it. One cannot go on social media without seeing promotion by EirGrid. It is the same when one watches a football match. Current affairs programmes on a number of local radio stations are sponsored by EirGrid. Does Mr. Griffin understand why that would be needed?

Mr. Mark Griffin

EirGrid does good work, as I see it, around sponsoring - I think it was - the under-20 GAA hurling over the last number of years. On the advertising bit, I need to get it clear in my head. EirGrid does a great deal of community outreach which one would imagine involves the need for extensive investment in local advertising in the areas where they are doing work or expecting to do work. It has done a good deal of outreach on some big projects it is doing to keep the communities adequately briefed on what is happening and likely to happen in the area.

Whether that is encompassed within the €8.1 million, I do not know. If it is, I would see that as being hugely important in terms of that community engagement piece, particularly on projects some of which, as both of us know, can be quite difficult and controversial in local communities. That bit needs to be appropriately managed by EirGrid as the-----

Deputy Matt Carthy

On that point-----

Chairman

We are going over time. I will try to let Deputy Carthy back in later.

Deputy Matt Carthy

To conclude on one brief point, EirGrid is not good at outreach, although it is apparently very good at spending millions of euro on advertising. My constituency is affected by one of its primary planned projects and its engagement has been very poor. Its advertising campaign has done the opposite of what the Department set out as the objective because it has antagonised people even more. I will return to that point.

Chairman

I have a couple of questions. In respect of An Post, I compliment the company. I was my party's spokesperson on communications a few years ago and the company was in deep bother at that time. It has had to carry out a transition very quickly and get itself into shape, so I compliment everybody involved. There is good employment for my area of Portlaoise and the wider County Laois at the mail centre and I hope that will be maintained. Some parcel facilities have been moved out of the centre but for now it is holding up well, and the Covid pandemic has actually brought a new layer of business to it. I wish the company and everybody associated with it well.

On the ESB and Bord na Móna plants and the Department's role in the issue, the Lough Ree and Shannonbridge plants have stopped generating power. These plants are on the national grid and are strategically located. They are a plug-in point. There is deep concern that they either will not be used for anything or will be under-utilised. What is the Department doing in terms of new ideas? The plants are ideal plug-in points for solar power, which can be generated on the local bogs because there is a huge land mass. Both Lough Ree and the West Offaly Power Station in Shannonbridge are surrounded by a huge land mass of bogs. There is a great opportunity as a plug-in point for biomass, and there is plenty of biomass because, by international standards, there is a very large agricultural sector in the midlands, which is good.

They could also act as a plug-in point for wind power. While the location of wind turbines is a contentious issue, the one place where they can be put is where there are large tracts of bog, which can be utilised. Some of the largest bogs in Ireland surround these two power stations. I have been trying to highlight this for years. What is the Department doing to flag that up and explore how the power stations can be utilised to ensure they can be used for power generation and as connectivity sites because of their strategic location in the context of the renewable energy phase we are moving into?

Mr. Mark Griffin

There are a couple of points. From our perspective in the Department, we are acutely conscious of the very fundamental changes that are occurring in the midlands and the very fundamental changes that are occurring for people who have worked in Bord na Móna, the ESB and related industries for decades. We secured the €108 million for the bog rehabilitation scheme pre-Christmas, which was a very positive outcome. Tranches of funding have been approved in principle for a range of projects to be funded under the just transition fund and at EU level, a further tranche of just transition funding is likely to be made available to the State over the 2021-27 period, which again is a really positive thing.

On the specific points, I know from speaking to Bord na Móna that it is keen to make sure the infrastructure that is available within the midlands region, that is, the connections to the grid, are harnessed, whether that is through the connections of additional renewable energy or otherwise. At one point, given the grid connection, I believe consideration was given to whether a data centre that could be connected to the grid was appropriate.

On the broader point on ESB plants, one of the things Mr. Kieran Mulvey set out in his report, which he provided to the then Minister back in May or June 2020, was the need for a group to look at how that existing infrastructure could be used. That group is currently sitting and is chaired by the ESB. Other local stakeholders are involved and the Department sits on it. I do not know if there is anything specific Mr. Maughan can say around that. I understand the work of that group is to conclude probably within the first quarter of this year.

Chairman

Given the time constraints, I ask Mr. Griffin to revert to me afterwards specifically on those two sites. They have been power generation centres for more than half a century and are ideally located. It is important that the State captures and makes use of that and they are used as part of the whole new infrastructure needed in the midlands for renewable energy. Perhaps Mr. Griffin will come back to me with a short note on that.

Mr. Mark Griffin

Absolutely. In terms of renewables we think of wind energy but a raft of solar energy schemes was approved in the last renewable electricity support scheme, including, I believe, in the midlands region. We will come back with a note on that.

Chairman

The extra €105 million for Bord na Móna is welcome, by the way.

Broadband connection points were dealt with earlier. There were to be 300 such connection points. As I understand from reports, the first group of 50 has been connected. That is all that has been connected. There are 51 connection points at the moment. The Department, in reply to a media query, stated the shortfall was due to a disengagement locally when sites that were to be provided were backed out. However, the Department's reply indicates that only 47 were withdrawn. There seems to be a discrepancy in terms of what happened and why that number has reduced dramatically.

My other question is about penalties. I engaged with Ministers and officials, including some of those present, on this matter for three and a half years. We were assured that strict penalties and timelines would apply to the delivery of the contract. Deputy Richard Bruton, when he was Minister, stated NBI was bound by contract and by the regulator. He stated:

The contract we have put in place has checks and balances built in because National Broadband Ireland is privately owned. That is why we have very strong governance arrangements in place, with key performance indicators, stringent penalties and a clawback of 40% of the value of the asset if it has value at the end of the process.

The Department's website states there will be significant penalties "to address underperformance" to protect the State's investment. There seems to be a discrepancy with regard to performance, in that we have learned that no penalty clause has been invoked to date. Why is that?

Mr. Mark Griffin

All the protections the Chairman called out are there and are absolutely stitched in to the contract in black and white, deployable as required. In terms of the factual position on the broadband-----

Chairman

We have missed a big target here.

Mr. Mark Griffin

No, we have not. There is a bit of confusion about that. We had 298 broadband connection points originally provided for in the contract during the course of year 1. A total of 47 withdrew and 22 were added to give 273. Currently, 247 are provided with high-speed connectivity.

We expect that the 273 will be completed over the next few weeks, and still within year 1, including 73 schools. A target has not been missed in terms of the delivery of the broadband connection points.

Chairman

When will the 273 be connected? Will the 273 be connected and live within a few weeks?

Mr. Mark Griffin

The 273 will be connected. That was the obligation under NBI - under the contract. Then there is a further contract that is being operated by the Department of Rural and Community Development, which is to provide the internal service within the broadband connection point itself.

Chairman

I have a quick question on carbon credits. A total of €50 million was spent in 2020 - I am open to correction but that is what it was as far as I can ascertain - buying carbon credits from other countries. How much do we expect to spend this year and over the decade up to 2030 on carbon credits?

Mr. Mark Griffin

There are two particular points. The first is that the credits that the Chairman referred to, having been purchased during the course of 2020, relate to statistical transfers, which are the purchasing of credits to make up for the shortfall in the achievement of our renewable energy targets.

Chairman

I understand that.

Mr. Mark Griffin

That is €50 million. That is the extent of the spend in 2020.

Chairman

In 2021, how much is the Department expecting?

Mr. Mark Griffin

We have made provision in 2021 for a potential additional €20 million. We will not know until August 2021 whether that needs to be spent because we will have the final 2020 energy figures from the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, at that stage. That is on the renewable energy side.

On the carbon credits, that is, the spend to meet our emissions reductions targets, as Mr. Frank Maughan mentioned earlier, we had a target, by 2021, of a reduction of 20% in our emissions relative to 2025. For a whole range of reasons, that will be somewhere in the region of 2% to 4%. We have made significant investment, most of it in the period to 2012, in emissions reductions allowances, which we have banked. We estimate but cannot be certain that the additional quantum required to meet our 2020 targets is €6 million to €13 million but, again, we have to do a bit of work to finalise that.

As we move into 2030, the focus over the next decade is to put in place a plan that will allow us deliver our 2030 targets and to make sure that that plan is delivered. The delivery of that plan will be set out in legislation, which has just completed its passage through pre-legislative scrutiny in the Oireachtas and will be introduced in the Dáil or Seanad in February.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Griffin. We have a little time left and I propose that we take two minutes per committee member. To use it well, I suggest only one question per committee member and a reply to it. Deputy Catherine Murphy has two minutes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Going back to the national broadband plan, the broadband cost reduction directive of 2014 means that assets, such as ducts and poles, are to be used to try to reduce the costs, and rightly so. Some of the companies were originally bidders and are not now. We heard recently that some of those assets are being leveraged. Is it the private national broadband company, the public purse or the individual householder that benefits? Who benefits from driving down those costs?

Mr. Mark Griffin

I might ask Mr. Mulligan to come in. The reduction in cost, should it arise, accrues to the State. The subsidy is paid on the basis of expenditure incurred.

If there is a reduced tender price or if there is a redesign, say, for example, to use the ESB network to roll out some of this, the ESB will get a payment for the subsidy because it is a commercial company. However, that would be fed back in through a dividend. The State gets a 40% dividend from the ESB every year. Accordingly, some of that will be factored into the dividend payment back to the State.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Will Mr. Griffin send us a note on television licence fee compliance?

Mr. Mark Griffin

Yes, absolutely.

Deputy Matt Carthy

I want to go back to the issue of the relationship between the Department and EirGrid. As the Secretary General rightly said, EirGrid is involved in the development of some substantial infrastructure. I note from a previous freedom of information request, secured by the newspaper The Northern Standard, that the relationship seems to be a strange one, in that EirGrid was even consulted and contributed to ministerial responses to parliamentary questions among other issues. A former Secretary General is now the chair of the board of EirGrid. It seems to be a fairly seamless relationship with regard to some of the major infrastructural developments.

One has situations, to which the Secretary General referred, where there can often be community differences, to put it mildly, between EirGrid's stated position and the wishes of the communities affected. I am referring specifically to the North-South interconnector. Has the Department ever analysed the information it receives from EirGrid? For example, has the Department ever analysed, visited or engaged with the ALEGrO interconnector development between Belgium and France? This is undergrounded and is a model sought by many communities. Does the Department, as appears to be the case, take its direction entirely from EirGrid?

Mr. Mark Griffin

I can assure the Deputy that we do not take our information or direction entirely from EirGrid. The Deputy commented about a former Secretary General being chair of EirGrid. The said man came through a process utterly independent of the Department, undertaken by the Public Appointments Service, strictly in accordance with the state aid guidelines and the name presented to the Minister.

Any factual information we take, we always critique it ourselves. It is absolutely appropriate to speak to all our State agencies, whether it is EirGrid, the ESB, An Post or whoever else, to source information from time to time for particular processes.

On the ALEGrO interconnector, to the best of my recollection, when the 2018 international expert study review was being undertaken, it looked at a range of high-voltage direct-current, HVDC, underground cable projects and how they operated. I stand to be corrected but I believe the ALEGrO one was considered. I will double-check that for the Deputy.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

On the environmental fund, the Comptroller and Auditor General referred to €37 million in his report. Will Mr. Griffin elaborate on what that money is used for? Will he also elaborate on the €15 million broadcast fund? What was the €27 million surplus for 2020 ultimately used for? If he does not have the time to reply or the information to hand, he can send it on to me.

Mr. Mark Griffin

The environment fund is set up on a statutory basis. It sets out the types of things for which the money accruing to the fund can be used.

There are schemes to prevent and reduce waste and schemes for waste recovery activities and research into waste management. There is a range of them. The environment fund is used for measures such as the anti-dumping initiative, which has been hugely effective in counties throughout the State in recent years since we introduced it. The fund supports measures such as the protecting uplands and rural environments project in the Wicklow mountains, which has been hugely successful and is a model we would like to see replicated more widely. It also provides support to environmental NGOs in the form of funding. There is a long list, which I will get and email to the Deputy, on where the moneys were disbursed in 2019.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I thank Mr. Griffin.

Mr. Mark Griffin

Funds were allocated during the course of the year, based on specific grounds such as television and commercial or local radio, from the €14 million sound and vision fund, managed by the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland. I will get a list of the schemes that were funded during the course of 2019.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I thank Mr. Griffin.

Mr. Mark Griffin

Usefully, the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland used some of the money during the course of 2020 when local radio was in particular difficulty and it had special rounds. One round amounted to €2.5 million and a second amounted to €750,000. This was on top of its normal work through the sound and vision fund. I will get that to the Deputy. There was another question but I cannot remember what it was.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

It was with regard to the €27 million surplus that was used.

Mr. Mark Griffin

This is typical throughout Departments. There is an underspend in capital funding for whatever reason. We had it because of an underspend on the national broadband plan last year. That will be deployed throughout the Department but primarily on programmes where there is a big ask and we expect a big level of spend. Traditionally, we have deployed the bulk of the capital carryover to the energy programmes in the Department, such as better energy warmer homes and energy poverty community schemes.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I thank Mr. Griffin very much.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Do we have any intention of moving the National Security Analysis Centre, NSAC, from the Department of the Taoiseach and, if so, will it be any time soon? To go back, I asked what was our most recent cyber attack. I do not need a definitive answer as to exactly what was attacked. What was the most recent attack and when was it?

Mr. Mark Griffin

I am only notified when we get a really scary attack. I have not had any notifications recently. We have seen it in particular during the Covid period that there is a constant, and increasing, number of low-level attacks that are being managed by the NCSC, with advisories issued to our various constituencies. The NSAC will remain under the remit of the Department of the Taoiseach. It has a co-ordinating function and pulls in our Department's policy side. It also pulls in the NCSC and the Departments of Defence and Justice. It is a very useful vehicle in terms of that cross-Government co-ordination.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I apologise. What I meant was that it would have its own proper kitted-out premises outside of the Department.

Mr. Mark Griffin

I do not have an answer to that.

Deputy Verona Murphy

It is not currently a proposal.

Mr. Mark Griffin

The NCSC under the remit of our Department was in a dedicated premises in UCD. We are looking at a permanent base for the NCSC that would have all of the functionality and security features that would be required on an enduring basis for an organisation of that nature and we are in discussions with the OPW on it.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is what I meant. Is there a timeframe for it?

Mr. Mark Griffin

We need to settle this over the coming months. Interim accommodation is required, and the long-term solution for the NCSC would have the headroom to take on additional capacity, which we expect will be called for in the capacity review report this year.

Chairman

I have a question on the issue of illegal dumping and environmental issues.

I do not want to go into any of them specifically. There is good work being done but a huge problem has arisen in regard to CCTV cameras. Unfortunately, many rural county councils have had to erect cameras at places where there is likely to be dumping taking place, including at bring banks, to stop people from dumping residual waste and to try to manage bring banks better. Typically, it is a mobile set of cameras that moves from location to location. I know the Data Protection Commission has a job to do and I do not want to speak badly of it but it has put the brakes on this measure. This is driving people crazy, not just council officials but also the public. While I do not wish to delay on the point today, will the Department come back to me on this issue, which is very important? Everyone understands the right to privacy and all of that. However, I can assure the Department that communities and people in rural and urban areas where there is illegal dumping taking place, some of it on a commercial basis, have no objection to a couple of small cameras being put up on a temporary basis and moved around from location to location. We have to find a way to deal with this.

Mr. Mark Griffin

Absolutely. We are conscious of how important this is. I will ask Mr. Nugent to come in on this point briefly because he is all over this like a rash, and we will then come back with a written response to the committee.

Mr. Philip Nugent

There was a compliment in there, I am sure, about being all over this like a rash. I thank the Chairman for the question. There was a recent ruling by the Data Protection Commissioner, which sets a serious question mark over the use of some technology in some circumstances in terms of waste enforcement. It does not rule it out completely but what we have committed to in the new waste management (amendment) Bill, which follows on from the waste action plan in September, is to data-proof all waste enforcement activity so any question mark over the continued use of CCTV and body cameras is completely clarified. We expect to have that legislation in place this year.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Nugent. If there is any other information, Mr. Nugent might come back to me with it.

Mr. Philip Nugent

I will.

Chairman

That is much appreciated. I thank the witnesses for joining us today and for the information they have provided as we have covered many issues. I also thank the Comptroller and Auditor General for attending and, as always, assisting the committee with our work. Is it agreed that we request the clerk to seek any follow-up information and to carry out any agreed actions arising out of today's meeting? Agreed. Is it also agreed that we note and publish the opening statements and the briefing provided of today's meeting? Agreed.

I bring to the attention of members that the nursing homes report which we signed off on this week will be launched later today, some time after 4 p.m. I thank members and witnesses for attending. We have had a number of virtual meetings but this is the first time we have had witnesses attending remotely. I thank the witnesses and the members for their co-operation. It is a little more difficult trying to chair it but everyone has been very helpful.

The witnesses withdrew.

The committee adjourned at 3.03 p.m. until 1 p.m. on Friday, 29 January 2021.