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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 24 Mar 2022

Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland: Financial Statements 2020

Mr. William Walsh(Chief Executive Officer, Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland) called and examined.

I welcome everybody to the meeting. We have one apology from Deputy Alan Dillon and Deputy Matt Carthy may be late because he is attending a meeting of the agriculture committee as well.

In order to limit the risk of spreading Covid-19, the service encourages all members, visitors and witnesses to continue to wear face coverings when moving around the Leinster House campus and when in close proximity to others. I ask members and witnesses to respect other people's physical space and adhere to public health advice at all times. Members attending remotely must continue to do so within the precincts of Leinster House. This is due to the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the place where the Parliament has chosen to sit. The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee.

This morning we will engage with officials from the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, to examine its 2020 financial statements and related matters. We are joined in the committee room by officials from the SEAI. They are Mr. William Walsh, chief executive officer; Ms Marion O’Brien, director of corporate services; Dr. Ciaran Byrne, director of national retrofit; and Mr. Declan Meally, director of business, public sector and transport. We are also joined in the committee room by Ms Jenny O’Hora, and Mr. Robert Deegan, principal officers from the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. They are all very welcome.

When we begin to engage, I will ask those attending remotely to mute their microphones when not contributing in order that we do not pick up any background noise. As usual, I remind all those in attendance to ensure that their mobile phones are either in silent mode or switched off.

Before starting, I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses in respect of reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. Within the precincts of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they may say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that it is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue and it is imperative that they comply with such directions.

Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I call on the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, to make his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, which was established in May 2002, works with Irish households, businesses, communities and the Government with the objective of creating a cleaner and more efficient energy future and supporting the development of clean energy technologies. The authority's income in 2020 totalled €150.7 million, down from €182.4 million in 2019. In 2020, €145.5 million, or almost 97% of the authority's income, came from Exchequer cash grants via the Vote for Environment, Climate and Communications. Expenditure in 2020 amounted to €151.6 million. Approximately 88% of this expenditure was incurred in a wide range of grant schemes, details of which are provided in note 7 to the financial statements.

The authority also has responsibility for oversight of the building energy rating, or BER, system. This includes registration of BER assessors, the provision of related information technology tools and systems, the BER national register and overall scheme management and promotion. BER scheme income for the year was €2.76 million, with expenditure on scheme activities amounting to €2.4 million. The authority’s expenditure on administration amounted to €15.7 million in 2020.

I certified the 2020 financial statements on 29 June 2021 and issued a clear audit opinion. Given the nature of the authority’s main activity as a grant giver, key value for money issues include the extent to which relevant output and outcome targets are set for each of the grant programmes, whether the authority has adequate systems in place to measure and report on the outputs and outcomes achieved relative to measured baselines and whether scarce Exchequer resources are being applied in ways that maximise the long-term benefits to Irish society.

I welcome Mr. Walsh. As detailed in his letter of invitation, there are five minutes for an opening statement.

Mr. William Walsh

I thank the committee for the invitation to attend the meeting today to discuss the SEAI financial statements for 2020. I am joined today by my SEAI colleagues - Ms Marion O'Brien, director of corporate services; Dr. Ciaran Byrne, director of national retrofit; and Mr. Declan Meally , director of business, public sector and transport. To assist the discussion today and in line with the letter of invitation, we submitted some briefing material to the committee earlier this week. I thank the committee for the opportunity to make an opening statement.

The Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland is at the forefront of delivering a low-carbon economy through measures and activities focused on the transition to a smarter and more sustainable energy future. SEAI is funded by the Government of Ireland through its parent Department, the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications, and the Department of Transport. In 2022, our budget allocation is more than €440 million.

SEAI operates to the highest level of effective corporate governance. We were the first organisation in Europe, private or public, certified by the National Standards Authority of Ireland to the SWiFT 3000 standard and maintain this governance certification annually.

In an environment where accountability, transparency and probity are fundamental to SEAI's licence to operate, we work hard to apply best-practice governance processes that deliver consistently high levels of assurance around compliance with relevant laws, regulations and the Code of Practice for the Governance of State Bodies.

Like others, SEAI had to adapt to the unprecedented challenges posed by Covid-19. Our staff responded in an agile way, ensuring continuity of service while working remotely. Given the disruption to normal life in 2020, fewer homeowners, communities and businesses availed of grants, such that expenditure across SEAI's various programmes decreased by around 15% year on year. Much of our work requires access to citizens' homes. Given the nature of Covid-19, access to homes was very restricted during 2020. Thankfully, with fewer restrictions, SEAI's support programmes rebounded strongly in 2021, resulting in the highest ever levels of expenditure by SEAI. This year is set to be another year of significant growth in activity levels.

SEAI puts citizens, communities, suppliers and other stakeholders at the heart of everything it delivers. We focus on developing collaborative partnerships, strong engagement and smooth customer journeys for the public we serve. We provide expert advice to drive positive change through our analysis, modelling and support for policymaking. We are catalysts for action through grant and incentive programmes we deliver and through our capacity-building processes with citizens, communities and the business and public sectors. Pursuing our mission, we collaborate closely with a wide range of stakeholders, including Departments and State agencies. We have had a major and transformative impact on the Irish economy. In the past decade, our actions have underpinned more than €1.2 billion in energy savings.

Ireland now has even more ambitious targets and we have been scaling up our operations to meet the challenge. In the past three years, we have added capacity to deliver capital expenditure programmes and enhance support to our parent Department. Meeting Ireland's energy and climate targets will require further significant investment by the Government and SEAI is playing a major part, alongside others, to get Ireland on the right track regarding our UN COP21 Paris Agreement commitment trajectory.

SEAI is at the heart of delivering on the Government's Climate Action Plan 2021. The plan sets ambitious goals for 2030, including 80% renewable electricity, 600,000 heat pumps, 500,000 B2 home upgrades, almost 1 million electric vehicles, a new microgeneration scheme, large emission reductions in our public service and enterprise sectors and increased investment in research and innovation.

At SEAI, we have a unique vision for the role we will play in delivering Ireland's energy revolution. This requires fundamental change across all Irish society. Since the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the security of supply and cost implications of Ireland's reliance on fossil fuel imports have become very real. This further underpins the urgency of our energy transition. We are collaborating with colleagues in our parent Department and State agencies to mitigate the cost and security of supply impacts that will affect all of society. Through energy independence, we can remove our reliance on imported fossil fuels, lower our carbon emissions and secure our future. The global pandemic had devastating impacts in Ireland and globally, but the resulting limitations demonstrated that collective and cohesive action can have a significant impact on our energy-consumption behaviours.

The way in which we live must change, but it will be a change for the better. This change will mean our buildings will be warm, comfortable and not heated by oil or gas. Our communities will be leading the generation of renewable energy and our transport fleet will be electrified, charged by a renewable-energy-powered electricity system. Sustainable energy needs to be the norm. The quicker we achieve this, the sooner the broad range of benefits will flow to Irish citizens and businesses in the form of cheaper-to-run, warmer and healthier buildings, improved air quality, increased competitiveness, improved security of energy supply and many others. At SEAI, we are acutely aware that the energy transition must be a just transition. This is carefully considered across our programmes of delivery, research and policy advice.

SEAI has a strong body of evidence to illustrate the costs and benefits of the sustainable energy transition. It is based on research and expertise from two decades of programme delivery. We are clear that, for much of what is needed, the benefits far outweigh the costs, especially when the multiple benefits — financial, economic, employment, health, security of supply and environmental — are considered.

We passionately believe clean energy transition must happen and we stand ready to support all of Irish society on the journey. The demands on Ireland's energy and environment require us to work at pace and to deliver ever greater results, learning and improvements. This work is key to driving Ireland's contribution to reducing greenhouse gas emissions, securing a healthy planet for future generations.

I thank our colleagues in the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications and the Department of Transport for their ongoing support, particularly in the context of the actions assigned to SEAI under the Climate Action Plan 2021.

I acknowledge the strategic leadership provided by the board members of SEAI, particularly their support in developing a new statement of strategy for the organisation. The statement will be published shortly. I pay tribute to the staff of SEAI for their commitment and dedication, particularly for their efforts and support as we addressed the significant challenges during the Covid-19 pandemic.

We are a strong and fully co-ordinated team, ready to embrace the next stage of our development. In collaboration with key stakeholders, we will co-ordinate and lead the efforts to achieve the ambitious targets set out in Climate Action Plan 2021 and the national development plan.

I welcome the discussion with the committee and am happy to answer any questions members may wish to raise.

I thank Mr. Walsh. I call on the lead committee member today, Deputy Catherine Murphy, who has 15 minutes. She is to be followed by Deputy O'Connor who, along with everyone else, will have ten minutes. We will break for ten minutes at about 11 a.m.

The witnesses are very welcome. The Chair has already outlined that we have a short time in which to put questions and get responses, so I will try to bear that in mind. The staff complement in 2020 was 93, which was up two from 2019, when it was 91. What is the current staff complement? What are the positions SEAI is funded to fill?

Mr. William Walsh

I will ask my colleague Ms Marion O'Brien, director of corporate services, to respond.

Ms Marion O'Brien

Our current staff complement is just short of 130. It is about 127. We are recruiting currently. We expect to be close to about 200, in total, by the end of the year.

Whatever we spend, we have to spend it wisely, but we really do need to spend at scale given the challenge in front of us. I presume we will see the roll-out of the one-stop shops and all of that. Will that be this year?

Ms Marion O'Brien

The one-stop shops have been launched. That is expected to roll out this year. We are recruiting at present. In fact, we have advertised and there is quite a strong response to our advertisements at the moment.

Is there a sufficient number of staff to deal with the plans?

Ms Marion O'Brien

We have a workforce plan that sees us staffing up this year. There are to be further staff increases next year, subject to approval of budgets.

So it will be ongoing. Obviously, this will be dependent on having contractors registered. What kinds of numbers is SEAI at at this stage?

Ms Marion O'Brien

I will pass over to my colleague.

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

I might take that question. We have been at this game for about 20-odd years. In our Better Energy Warmer Homes programme, we actually have about 1,300 contractors registered. This relates to the individual measures. On the one-stop shops, which the Deputy mentioned, we have 15 larger-scale entities going through the process. We issued contracts to the first this week, and we expect more to come behind. We have 33 contractors in our warmer homes programme. We have a considerable number of contractors with experience. We have had expressions from others who wish to move into the industry.

Mr. Walsh said SEAI does modelling. Obviously, it will be advising the Government on public policy. The kind of stock local authorities will be retrofitting will include old local authority houses from the 1950s with two or three bedrooms. What is the cost of a deep retrofit of a house fitting that profile?

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

I will give the example of a terraced home which is mass concrete, 1930s with a BER F rating. This is a cost taken from a pilot scheme we did last year. The install cost would have been €36,000. On the current one-stop-shop, OSS, grant levels which were announced in February, the homeowner would have received €18,600 in grants, which is around 50%.

Local authorities have been allocated €27,000 to retrofit individual homes. They do not have another income. Would that be sufficient to carry out a retrofit? I know there can be economies of scale but is that sufficient?

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

Yes it would. Unfortunately there is an element of asking how long is a piece of string because one of the bigger costs of a retrofit is putting in the electrical technology of a heat pump. A heat pump and external wall insulation are probably the two biggest costs. We have had meetings with our colleagues in the Department of Housing, Heritage and Local Government and local authorities and have shared cost data with them. We think the €27,000 is a figure that can bring up a house to a B2 rating. Again, it depends where you start from and where you are going to.

Dr. Byrne might give us some figures on that modelling afterwards, if he has them.

I was intrigued about the SEAI's move. Obviously the Office of Public Works, OPW, take its instructions from it about what it requires. Emissions from its previous building were 77,000 kg of CO2 and then 135,000 kg in 2020 in the new building. Why did SEAI make that move? Was this considered given that SEAI is the organisation that is supposed to show the way forward? What was the objective? What instructions did it give to OPW not only on the energy rating of the building but also its output and the size of the building required?

Mr. William Walsh

We were a tenant of the lead agency, IDA Ireland in Wilton Park Place. The SEAI, Science Foundation Ireland, the Marine Institute and IDA Ireland shared a building. IDA Ireland has similar powers to the OPW to purchase property. IDA Ireland led an interagency move because we were being evicted from Wilton Park House, as the organisation that owned it was redeveloping it and had other tenants. We were forced to move in 2019. As part of that move, IDA Ireland led an interagency process where it went through a significant process to secure and procure offices which SEAI was involved in. IDA Ireland is the lead tenant in 3 Park Place at present.

On the levels of increase in energy consumption in the new building, our footprint is twice as big as our previous footprint which was 12,500 sq. ft., which we were squeezed into. We have doubled our footprint to allow us to scale up to what we are doing at the moment and to future-proof our premises.

What instructions did SEAI give around energy use when the building was being secured?

Mr. William Walsh

There is a requirement on the public service when moving into a new building that its display energy certificate, DEC, rating is A. The successful building came in at B and we forced it to go back and make further measures which would make it A. It is a leading example in its energy efficiency.

Okay. And what was SEAI's rent in the previous building in 2019? What is it today? It is rented rather than purchased, is it?

Mr. William Walsh

Yes, it is rented. It is leased. At a very high level - because the Deputy has asked that we keep our answers succinct - we had a very low rent in Wilton Park House given that IDA Ireland had entered an arrangement with the landlord back in the 1980s. The cost per square foot doubled to €57 per square foot and was around €30 to €32 in Wilton Park House, which was way below market average. The cost nearly doubled but also the footprint because we required more space for the staff that we have now and will have in the future.

Ms Marion O'Brien

It went from €2.1 million, including service charges, to about €2.9 million.

Did SEAI consider any other options beyond that joint move? Was anything else on the table in terms of value for money? Why was this considered the best option?

Mr. William Walsh

It allowed us to get into a process where value for money was achieved through a full procurement and led by an organisation, IDA Ireland, that had expertise in the area. It has a whole team and we are-----

IDA Ireland has an expertise in industrial development. Does it really have an expertise in property management?

Mr. William Walsh

Absolutely. It absolutely has. When it attracts inward investment, a major concern is facilities, opportunity and the construction of facilities. We leveraged that significantly and that allowed economies of scale and delivered value for money, not only in the outcome but also in the cost of getting there.

Okay. I wish to move to another issue. Value for money will be really important as we need to stretch the money as far as possible. I have the list of grants for electric vehicles and some of the models. Will the SEAI start by confirming that they are grant-aided because I know there are parameters? You can pick very high-end models such as a BMW X5. It retails at €83,000. Is that in the range? Is it below that?

Mr. Declan Meally

Yes.

What happens when a manufacturer produces a car above the range? No grant applies to that at all?

Mr. Declan Meally

No. The grant limit was brought down to a €60,000 maximum with all costs taken into account. That is the cap on the grant. Vehicles outside of that range receive nothing.

Therefore there is a threshold at the bottom and at the top.

Mr. Declan Meally

At the top. The sum of €60,000 is the current threshold.

Is there is no restriction? If someone wanted to buy a new car every six months would that person be grant-aided every time or every year? The grant does not go with the individual, it goes with the car.

Mr. Declan Meally

It goes with the car. The car stock in Ireland is close to 2 million. We want to ensure that as many of those are electric as possible.

The ambition around electric vehicles is very big. Where are we? What does it need to be, year on year?

Mr. Declan Meally

The programme started in 2011 with a small number of cars when they were just introduced into the country. At the moment there are around 55,000 of what we class as electric cars, that is, fully electric, plug-in hybrids, any car with a plug on it on the road. The target is to have close to 1 million of those cars on the road by 2030.

Could Mr. Meally just send the committee the projections on that so that we can take a look at it? I think some of it may be in the briefing document anyway. I am noticing my time and I want to ask a final question. Regardless of how many houses we retrofit, and I hope we can do that to a very significant scale, it will not matter if we do not have the electricity that is generated from renewable sources.

The Minister projected that significant additional offshore wind will be generated in approximately four years. Does Mr. Walsh think that is realistic? What impediments does he see with regard to realising that kind of ambition?

Mr. William Walsh

The Climate Action Plan 2021 requires 5 GW of offshore wind. There are a host of challenges to get there. We in SEAI believe that we need to accelerate and deal with the hurdles that are facing us, particularly in the context of our energy security issues and the short-, medium- and long-term affect and impact of those. The challenges as we see them relate to the opportunity to-----

I will ask Mr. Walsh a very practical question. Do we manufacture the columns that go out? Are we required to do that to meet our targets? Are very obvious practical things not being done?

Mr. William Walsh

The actions that we can take are being accelerated now. There is a focus in government and industry to get those actions taken. Indeed, a whole jigsaw has to be put together to get there. The supply chain to get materials in to build the offshore farms is one of them. The consent in terms of planning and a fast process for developers is another. There needs to be planning certainty for developers in terms of investment coming in. Things are moving but from an SEAI and decarbonisation perspective, we cannot move fast enough on this. We are conscious of the rights of communities to be involved and consulted with, and to benefit from the development of our wind energy ambitions.

I welcome the SEAI to the committee room. First and foremost, I will start with issues pertaining to transport if that is okay. Mr. Meally is here from the transport section. I would like to ask about work that is being undertaken by the SEAI to help retrofit the national car fleet. In terms of grants that are currently available, the SEAI has set a cap at €60,000, which is now in place and correct in terms of the cut-off. What was the logic around that?

Mr. Declan Meally

Again, policy decisions are taken at departmental level at the Department of Transport with the Minister. That looks at the budget that is available in terms of where the best spread of the budget is. We would, therefore, look at the numbers of cars that are coming in and the affordability. The decision at the time on the capping was brought in by the Minister, in discussions with his officials and ourselves, to look at where this should land. The majority of the cars and fleets were coming in at approximately €40,000 to €50,000 and those were considered to be the ones that should attract the grant aid as such.

Something I have noticed from looking at car prices online is that there seems to be a degree of price gouging going on in terms of the difference for, let us say, a person buying a new Avensis, for example, that would probably have cost €35,000 at the time. If he or she was choosing the hybrid model of the same vehicle, it was often the case that it could be multiples of thousands of euros more expensive. Does Mr. Meally think the grant that is in place at the moment is sufficient? In terms of car brands in Ireland, does he think major dealerships are abusing the Government support that has been put in place to increase the price on hybrid models? Across a multitude of different brands - not to pick any one specifically - there seems to be a very significant issue that they just jacked up the price of the hybrid and electric models versus that of the traditional diesel and petrol engines.

Mr. Declan Meally

No. What we are monitoring and seeing is open market in relation to the prices. It has certainly not been impacted through the grant. That is being monitored. Again, it is cross-European in terms of what they can attract for the cars and car stock and what they can sell. It is working. Obviously, that market is being watched by the Society of the Irish Motor Industry to keep an eye on the pricing that is in place.

From the grant point of view, we look at the base metal price of the cars that are coming in and see how they compare across Europe to ensure it is quite even and adequate and that there is not anything going on like the Deputy suggested in terms of gouging. It is an open market. Electric vehicles are more expensive but we are seeing the prices coming down all the time in relation to the benefits. More and more stock is coming in as well.

The price of cars, of course, has gone up very significantly in the past number of years or, as a matter of fact, the past year. It is a concern. Part of my concern originates from the fact that we are now facing a situation whereby the State is pursuing a strategy of banning the sale of new diesel vehicles by 2030.

We have this situation whereby many people are not in a position to purchase new vehicles because of the enormous cost of purchasing cars. They are faced with the situation whereby they have older cars on which they are paying high levels of road tax. I do not think the grant that is in place at the moment is significant enough to enable people to make that decision to change to or buy an electric car in many cases, particularly for families who need the space. Those cars are quite expensive if someone is buying a saloon car or some type of crossover that would be suitable for younger kids.

Does Mr. Meally think the SEAI has any scope in its existing budget, which is quite small? I think it is approximately €28 million in the year towards transport although I stand to be corrected. Is there any scope for the authority to increase the supports it has available in that area?

Mr. Declan Meally

With regard to the cost of vehicles and the grant, prices are coming down all the time in terms of what we are seeing on it. There have naturally been some supply chain issues in terms of demand, obviously, with Covid-19, but also impacts in terms of semiconductors and some activity that is required for those cars that have kept the supply chain at bay.

We have seen that the issue people had originally when they were trying to make a decision was that the ranges were not there on the cars. The ranges are there now. The cars can do 400 km and 500 km. We say to people who are making those decisions now to do the maths on the cars. When someone takes in the total cost of ownership of a petrol or diesel car versus an electric car, it is much cheaper to run and own an electric car compared to a petrol or diesel car over ten years. The fuel prices at the moment make it even more of an economic benefit to actually buy and own a car. If we look at the deals that are available through dealerships in terms of monthly payments on a new car plus the running costs of an electric car, which are actually minuscule in comparison to a petrol or diesel car, the overall total cost of ownership is actually less. That is affordable for anybody who is looking at the cars right across the board. There are cars that are now €20,000 to €25,000, and that can actually be achieved-----

Mr. Meally will understand I am under a lot of pressure with time so I will continue. I thank him for his response on that.

Does he have any concerns or has the SEAI done any analysis overall, and I will open this question to any witness who wishes to answer, when it comes to the strain that is being put on it the national grid the moment? We are in a very precarious circumstance as we speak in terms of the overall capacity of the grid. If we are looking at this change in the national car fleet towards the usage of electric charging points throughout the country, however, will that not collapse the grid?

Mr. Declan Meally

The electricity operators, EirGrid and ESB Networks, were looking at the local grid. Up to 500,000 cars can be taken on the grid as it stands. We have 55,000 cars, therefore, there is no issue at the moment. There may be an issue as we start to evolve towards 2030 but they will be taken into account as the grid expands and develops. We could not add 1 million cars now but we can add up to 500,000 without having significant changes to the grid.

Okay. Approximately €100 million is being spent on energy efficiency schemes by the SEAI. I would like to gain an understanding of the schemes the SEAI is providing for businesses that may wish to go carbon neutral, particularly in rural areas and towns where they may actually have the space behind or above premises for solar and small wind microgeneration.

This is an area in which we are not at the races at all in comparison to other countries in the vicinity of Ireland. The Danish, and some other Scandinavian countries, have excellent schemes in place and have very much encouraged people to undertake work in microgeneration. We have limited solar in this country, especially for the heating of water. When it comes to Ireland's venture into renewables, does the SEAI believe we could do more when it comes to microgeneration, perhaps by setting a target for each house and individual dwelling that has the capacity to generate its own electricity or be a net contributor to the grid?

Mr. Declan Meally

On business microgeneration and microgeneration in general, the approach we look at is energy efficiency first so making sure people are reducing their demand, but there is now microgeneration for homes and photovoltaic, PV, programmes that have been very successful and are now available for people to consider putting on a PV panel. They are available straightaway to homes and we have one ready to launch for businesses as well. We have already engaged through our communities programme and seen tens of millions being invested by farms, businesses and communities in solar, in terms of installing it on their business premises, on farm roofs and on farm sheds. Yes, a lot more can be done on that, but as the new programmes evolve we are seeing an expansion of that. There is a big opportunity there.

What is the SEAI doing in the area of the provision of an advisory service in order to enable and help people along in that transition?

Mr. Declan Meally

We have mentors and an energy academy for business. We have mentors for the likes of communities. These people are advisers and consultants who are going out and providing free advice to homes and communities to understand what they should do and where they should start. From the businesses point of view, last year, with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, we launched the energy hub for businesses to go online to join the energy academy and learn what they need to do to start the process and understand where they can have the savings. We have been working with large businesses for more than 20 years to understand where they can make savings in energy management standards. We provide free advice, right through from homeowners to businesses and communities, across the board through our mentors and representatives.

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

On the domestic front, last year we installed more than 4,000 micro-solar PV facilities in homes. This year, to date, we have more than 3,000 applications for the same measures so it is really taking off. The current crisis is probably accelerating that but people are starting to switch and use solar, particularly with the ability coming onshore that they will be able to feed back into the grid on a micro level.

Was it 4,000 homes last year?

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

Yes.

I will touch on the SEAI's national retrofitting plan and its target to deliver on 500,000 homes, or approximately 30% of all homes in the State. Do its targets contain any reference to geographic or income spread? Is the SEAI simply interested in the number of raw houses that are retrofitted?

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

The answer is they do because it will be houses all over the country. Every parish in this country will require homes to be retrofitted. The budget between now and the end of 2030 is approximately €8 billion. Of that, €4 billion is allocated to the energy-poor sector. For all the applicants at this point, it is a demand-led programme. The can-pay sector have to apply for it and that is a demand-led programme. Similarly, the warmer homes programme is also demand-led. We have been publicising the programme and encouraging people to apply. In that sense, there are targets.

Is that the only safeguard the SEAI has in place to ensure that spread for the energy-poor sector?

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

No, it is not the only one. To be clear, for the energy poor sector, in that particular programme the cost of the retrofit or the upgrade of homes is fully funded by the State. In the can-pay sector it is obviously up to the homeowners, but within that part of it there is also quite a spread because some people are well able to afford a particular retrofit, while others are not. In that regard, at the recent launch on 8 February, the Deputy might recall we put in high grant levels of up to 80% for attic and wall insulation, specifically targeting those who are in the can-pay sector but who do not qualify for the full upgrade and do not have a huge amount of disposable income.

Okay. It was suggested that householders' contribution would likely max out at approximately 50% or €25,000, but that a loan scheme might be in place by the summer or autumn. Has any progress been made on that?

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

Yes. My colleagues in the Department are working directly with our finance people on the loan scheme. They are running the loan scheme through the European Investment Bank, EIB, and the Strategic Banking Corporation of Ireland, SBCI. They will ultimately set up the scheme and the Government will, in effect, be the first 20% loan guarantee. In other words, the Government will underwrite the loan to a point which then allows the pillar banks to get involved and offer loans to the public at a much lower interest rate than is currently available. It is expected that the EIB is currently in its due diligence phase and because it is a regulatory piece - I have to be honest that I am not an expert on this - there is a significant amount of due diligence to be done on the banking side of it. We expect that to be done by quarter 3 and we hope to be in the process of rolling it out to customers in quarter 4 of this year.

Okay, thanks for that. Is it envisaged that the situation will be that those who can afford to pay for everything upfront, for example, the €25,000, will get all the work done without needing to take on the cost of what would be rebated at the other end? The SEAI's plan is to make it easier again by facilitating, as Dr. Byrne said, hopefully, low-interest State-backed loans.

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

Yes, that would be the broad plan.

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

It is reasonably acknowledged that, unfortunately, there are probably two strands in the economy. Some people over the Covid period have made up significant savings and they are probably in a position to pay but other people not so.

There are some who cannot afford to pay for everything at once and because of that will be forced to do it bit by bit. Will people in those particular situations actually pay twice as much upfront and then seek a rebate?

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

Sorry, I do not follow. I will clarify for the Deputy-----

For example, am I right in saying that the SEAI will pay up to 50% of the cost for the one-stop shop, the contractor who will do all, and the person will not have to worry about waiting for a rebate?

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

Yes, okay. We have-----

The other end of that are the people who will not be able to afford to do everything at once, will have to do it in dribs and drabs, will have to pay twice as much upfront and will have to wait for the rebate.

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

Yes. That is the current situation with the grant schemes.

There will then be less options available to them regarding works to be done as well.

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

Yes. I appreciate what-----

Is there a low interest State-backed loan scheme in the offing for them?

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

They will also be able to participate in a low-interest loan scheme. The scheme will not be predicated on just doing a one-stop-shop or not. We have recognised, and the Deputy has raised a very valid point, that even though people want to get a retrofit done and have some funding available, they may not want to get the whole lot done in one go. We have the better energy individual measures scheme and they can do it-----

Or it could be a case that they would like to get it all done, for obvious reasons, but they cannot afford to and they have to do it in dribs and drabs. Under the scheme, they would have to pay twice as much upfront and then wait to seek the rebate. I asked that question because many people have flagged the issue. I noticed that the opening statement mentioned "energy transition must be a just transition." It appears that it is not really. The options open to people who cannot afford to pay for everything at once are far less. It comes back to my initial question about geographical and income spread in the scheme. Has the SEAI recommended income caps or means testing at all?

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

No, we have not. To clarify the point on individual measures, homeowners pay upfront but they claim the money back from the SEAI. We have a very efficient grant payback system. While they pay the money upfront, the turnaround in paying back the grant is not weeks and months; it is very quickly thereafter. We have been doing the better energy homes scheme for the past 15-odd years. We have put in hundreds of thousands of measures through that scheme to a significant degree.

Did the SEAI not consider gearing it towards middle- and low-income families to make it as accessible for them as for people who have the money and will go with that, particularly for a scheme that is worth €8 billion?

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

We have. A significant amount of work was done in the establishment of the grant rates. That included looking across all our existing schemes.

We surveyed the market twice last year because of inflation and did a good deal of behavioural research including demographically selected focus groups. It looked across the income spectrum, the age spectrum and the home-owner types and we landed on the current grant levels. However, we are on a journey so what we start off with in 2022 will quite likely not be what we will be doing in 2028 or 2030. We are evolving this programme because we have so many targets to reach.

Does Dr. Byrne not accept or see why it is suggested that a scheme worth €8 billion is geared more to those who can afford to pay as opposed to those who are less able to pay?

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

To clarify, €4 billion of that €8 billion will be entirely for the energy-poor sector which is fully-funded by the State. Within the remaining €4 billion the grant levels have been set, even in February at 80% in terms of wall cavity insulation which are significant measures. The Deputy is making a valid point and one of the things we have undertaken to do is to keep a very close watch on the schemes to see where are they being taken up and who has been left behind so we can achieve that just transition for everybody.

I flagged this with the Minister previously. In regard to private rented accommodation, where landlords can avail of the deep retrofitting grant and they can ask a tenant to move out while the work is ongoing. By law they have to offer the property back to the tenant but because the property has been brought up to a certain BER standard they are exempt from the limits of the rent pressure zone. While by law they can offer the property back to the tenant, they do not have to keep the rent as it was. They can hike the rent up. I asked the Minister who said it would be monitored as the scheme goes forward. Is the SEAI monitoring that in regard to who the applications are coming from? For example, is the deep retrofitting scheme primarily going to private rented property, be that landlords or vulture funds? This could be a real problem.

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

To clarify, the schemes we have at the moment are open to private members of the public and private renters, as we call the small non-commercial rental sector, in other words people who have one home or maybe two homes, not the commercial rental sector. We are monitoring who applies to our scheme but it will be appreciated we do not have control or sight over the rental piece and what landlords do. That is a different policy area. We certainly have good visibility into our schemes. There is an issue with renting as well in terms of the split incentive situation where the landlord pays but the tenant benefits. We are working on that with our colleagues in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage - it is not just an Irish problem, it is a European-wide problem - to figure out how we might address that in order to get more rental homes into the schemes.

Does Dr. Byrne see how this could turn out to be a real problem? While it is monitoring, is the SEAI collecting data to see exactly? If the deep retrofitting scheme results in people being evicted by being offered the property back but at an increased rent, it is going to add to homelessness. Has the SEAI spoken to the Minister about this? The Minister, Deputy Ryan, said it will be monitored. Has it been discussed indepth? I am trying to pre-empt something that was not foreseen initially but could become a real problem.

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

My colleague-----

Just briefly because I have to watch the time.

Mr. Robert Deegan

It is a very important area. We needed to make sure the schemes were not going to leave the rental sector behind because it is an area that has had problems in terms of driving activity in the energy efficiency area. While SEAI would not maintain the numbers for the reasons for those kinds of evictions, the Residential Tenancies Board, RTB, does. The evidence in the past has been that there have been very low numbers of evictions for this reason. It is something they are acutely aware of. The Residential Tenancies Board has been before a committee where this issue came up. It is something it is aware of, the SEAI, the Minister and the Department are aware of and we will all be monitoring it jointly. We have been in touch with the RTB and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage to make sure everyone is acutely aware of the situation and are actively monitoring it. Action will be taken if necessary.

If there are any reports or information compiled on that issue both myself and the committee would be interested, if there is dialogue between the RTB and the SEAI.

Mr. Robert Deegan

My understanding is that those numbers are published by the RTB on the reasons why-----

Is the Department's interaction with the RTB made public?

Mr. Robert Deegan

Well-----

There is no formal interaction.

Mr. Robert Deegan

It is interaction in terms of this came up as an issue and we wanted to make sure that everyone was aligned in terms of the need to keep an active eye on this. There are ongoing discussions.

It is incredibly important and I am not sure we have actually cracked the issue of how we retrofit rentals yet.

I am not sure who is responsible among our speakers for the public charge points scheme. We talked a little this morning about the increasing use of electric cars and the need to roll out a network of charging points. The public charge points scheme is in particular, for those who are not aware, for people for whom home charging is just not possible. In my constituency there are many terraced houses where people park on-street and they would need access to that system. I understand that as part of the scheme grants of up to €5,000 are awarded to support the development of on-street public charging. Dublin City Council actually applied and was approved for nine public charge points. What happened with this funding? I have been chasing it up and Dublin City Council informed me it has not received any funding under this initiative despite receiving a letter of offer last summer. The SEAI was repurposing the scheme to reflect the actualities of the market better; that is the phrase that I have from my questions. On top of this, the Minister for Transport informed me on Tuesday that €143,000 plus some change has been allocated by his Department in total to date. Where is the funding, where does that money lie? I understand the Dublin local authority electric vehicle charging strategy is underway and is due to be published soon. We will see more in this area but that is not really my question in terms of what DCC is doing. I want to know what has happened to the funding that was supposed to be allocated under the public charge points scheme from July 2021, nearly nine months ago.

Mr. Declan Meally

In terms of the applications we have received from Dublin City Council and other councils, Louth County Council had an application in, that funding is still available to them to draw down. They received the letter of offer from us but once the installations are completed as necessary and a claim is made to us that is an ongoing matter in terms of something we can look into.

It is a relatively new scheme so I am trying to understand the process. It is basically a rebate system.

Mr. Declan Meally

Yes, it is.

So Dublin City Council needs to put in the nine charging points and then come back to the SEAI to be repaid. Has that not happened yet?

Mr. Declan Meally

We have not received a claim for the work. There have been ongoing discussions with the DCC. It was deciding on what method to use to install. It was slightly different than originally planned but we have an ongoing discussion with the DCC.

Has Louth County Council drawn down that money yet?

Mr. Declan Meally

No, it has not yet. Just to explain the way we look at the charging, the charging strategy has four levels of charging, home charging, on-street charging which is called public charging, destination charging which would be for hotels or workplaces and finally the fast charging which you see on motorways. The public charging is for people who do not have off-street parking. We brought in a grant two years ago for local authorities to be able to apply and put in a charger, if there is demand from people on their streets who say they want a charger, and the local authorities get a €5,000 rebate from ourselves for it. That is still an open call available to local authorities to draw down. What has happened in the meantime is the local authorities are looking at their own strategies, whether it is better to provide local hubs of charging, or is it better to do it on-street, or perhaps to replace and have trickle chargers on street lights. They have been working through that for the past 12 to 18 months to see what is the best local authority strategy and how to address that. Dublin City Council, Fingal County Council and others have been working on that. That is why discussions-----

That street lamp version seems to work very well in Europe. It would be interesting to see how that-----

Mr. Declan Meally

It varies because it does not have the full power to a street light that you would need for a car, but you could have trickle charge. All of this is being looked at in the UK and across Europe. The Netherlands has been developing different types of technology and smart cables.

Of the 29 applications that were approved, how many of the county councils or city councils have drawn down that funding?

Mr. Declan Meally

They have not drawn down funds from us yet. They are still working out their strategy to-----

Will there be a moment when the SEAI goes back to them and reminds them that this money is there?

Mr. Declan Meally

We have a full working group within the local authorities working on this to see what is the best way forward. In addition, the Department of Transport is developing and updating the electric vehicle, EV, charging strategy and looking at this directly with the councils. It is all the subject of ongoing discussions-----

There is significant appetite for this among the public. People tell me all the time that they want on-street charging. There is a significant appetite for it.

I want to move to the one-stop-shop programme. I am not sure which of our guests is best placed to respond on it. A constituent of mine has had work done under the programme. Obviously, it is great to have a one-stop-shop model. The constituent has a concern regarding the transparency of the programme. The homeowner asked SEAI for details on what work on his or her home is being claimed for, when inspections are happening and the quantum of the grant provided. The SEAI responded that due to the general data protection regulation, GDPR, it cannot discuss the status of an application with the homeowner. Why can a homeowner not get details from the SEAI in respect of work being carried out on his or her home? If there is a dispute between the one-stop shop and the homeowner, for example, simply telling the homeowner to trust the one-stop shop is problematic for the homeowner if there is an opaqueness there. I appreciate that the contract is between the one-stop shop and the SEAI, but is there anything stopping the SEAI including in those contracts that it will share details on progress and other relevant matters with the homeowner? Why is a layer of opaqueness being added to the one-stop-shop process?

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

Can I give the Deputy a non-answer to that question? As she will appreciate, I cannot comment on an individual case. I will look into-----

I am not giving details-----

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

The Deputy hit the nail on the head. The one-stop shop as we are launching it forward is slightly different. We had a precursor pilot programme whereby a contractor would have three or four homeowners together under a project scheme, if you like. We would liaise with the contractor and the contractor would then liaise with the homeowners. I do not understand that the homeowner cannot get information on what works were done on his or her home because that is a relationship between the homeowner and the contractor. Going forward-----

If the homeowner goes to the SEAI with a concern in respect of the operation of the one-stop shop, can he or she receive his or her own information from the SEAI?

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

I expect so. Personal information would-----

If the answer received from the SEAI is that due to GDPR, it cannot discuss the status of an application with the homeowner, that is an incorrect position to take.

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

I would have to see all the information. The homeowner should be in a position to get the information pertaining to his or her home. It may be a case involving a contractor, and the project being bundled with four or five other homes. In the previous schemes, we had four or five contracts bundled together, so the homeowner might have to be able to get his or her own particular information out of that. A contractor might come to us with a scheme for €200,000 or €300,000 and within that there might be ten homes. What we have are the details of the €200,000 or €300,000 but we may not necessarily have the full detail on the ten individual homes within that. I do not know the specifics of the situation to which the Deputy refers but the homeowner should be able to get information about his or her home.

In the minute I have remaining, I will ask a follow-up question. It speaks to that governance side of things. Coming from the construction industry and having worked in the services and sustainable design area, I am aware that the level of paperwork and regulation can be onerous, particularly for small contractors. Contractors often take on the burden of regulation and paperwork for the homeowner, for example. Is the SEAI constantly working to ensure that burden is being lessened as much as possible? As more programmes are added, a level of complexity will be added. It is not always obvious. We need to give people choice, but it is not always obvious which programme one should choose. Is work being done consistently to ensure there is the least amount of red tape and paperwork for homeowners but also for contractors? Some contractors are basically a micro-company with fewer than ten employees and the burden on them to access the schemes should be as little as possible.

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

That is a fair question. We have significant targets out to the end of the decade and the only way we will reach those targets is by scale. To get scale, one has to streamline processes and pare back the non-effective or non-value-adding parts of the process. One must also bear in mind the other side of the equation, which is that we are dispersing Exchequer money to private entities, be they contractors or, ultimately, homeowners, so we have significant Government requirements to which we must adhere.

As regards what we are looking at, in the case of the new one-stop shops, for example, we took a design-thinking approach to start from the outside in and ask how can we make this as simple as possible. We are starting to look at all of our other schemes in that context. It is an iterative process; it will not happen as a once-off. It is something one constantly trims and changes. The idea is that we adhere to all the governance requirements, of which there are several, and also make it as easy as possible for companies such as those the Deputy described - two-man-and-a-van companies or firms with eight or ten employees - that do not have the back-up and resources for all of that. We are moving a lot of the processing to an electronic format and we are streamlining many of the requirements. It is an ongoing process.

I am out of time. I thank Dr. Byrne.

I thank our guests for coming before the committee. It is great to have the opportunity to engage with them. My apologies for leaving the meeting; I had to attend the Dáil Chamber for questions.

I wish to ask about the offshore renewable energy sector in particular. Where are we in that regard? Where are the opportunities? What escalation has there been from the perspective of our guests recently, both through Covid but particularly following the invasion of Ukraine and the heightened concerns in respect of energy security? I ask our guests to update me in that regard.

Mr. Declan Meally

I thank the Deputy. As regards offshore energy, the focus Ireland had in the years up to 2020 was particularly on wave energy because we were going to have enough onshore wind and we were looking at wave energy as a new technology. We have a fantastic wave resource on the west coast. That has changed in recent years, however, in terms of policy. Just this week, a new Bill was launched that relates to maritime planning opportunities. There are now seven projects in the offing that have been in development and planning and doing their environmental assessments and so on. Six of the projects are off the east coast and one is off the west coast. In terms of the offshore opportunity, as Mr. Walsh stated, 5 GW is what is needed by 2030. The progress that has been accelerated in the past 12 months or more has been on the planning and consenting side and to get the streamlining of those actions in place.

May I interject? I ask Mr. Meally to address planning on the east coast, in particular the fixed wind turbines off the east coast and those different models, one of which is in my area, Dún Laoghaire.

Mr. Declan Meally

The idea is that the projects that are in planning or in train at the moment now have the opportunity to use the new planning system and to prove they are eligible to get a consenting which will be in place from next year to be able to kick off in 2023 in terms of moving to the next stages and getting approval from the Minister for that.

When does Mr. Meally expect those projects to be functional, assuming things go through as planned?

Mr. Declan Meally

The ambition is that some of them could be in the early stages of operation by 2025 or 2026. They will be coming on stream in 2025, assuming that all of the ducks - excuse the pun - are in a row in the context of what needs to happen in terms of planning, environmental considerations, consenting, grid connections and all of that. Much of the environmental work has been progressing in recent years in terms of seabed surveys, bird analysis, consultations and all those kinds of things. Much of that work has been ongoing but it is about making sure projects follow due process through the maritime Bill. We should then start to see them being installed and starting to kick off from 2025. Of course, they will not be completely built but at least the first phases will start to come on stream from then.

How has the engagement been? Some of the feedback I am getting is that it is all very well planning ahead but the connection points are not there yet and are not being paced in the same way. Does Mr. Meally have a concern in that regard?

Mr. Declan Meally

All shoulders are to the wheel on this. Across government, through the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, our Department and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, any of the actions that are required are being worked on together.

That is the group working on it. We would take heart that there is good momentum. EirGrid has been given the ownership to look after the offshore transmission grid and it is working on that as well.

Does Mr. Meally think there will be-----

Mr. Declan Meally

There is still a lot to happen but the momentum is there and everybody wants it.

Does Mr. Meally think there are any issues in fully utilising the energy through the current national grid? Does it need to be upgraded? How much upgrading needs to be done? Do we have the capacity in the grid to utilise what is possible even in the period up to 2030? I will come to-----

Mr. Declan Meally

There is going to be grid. That is what EirGrid has in terms of its own grid strategy. It is not something we are directly involved in. Obviously, we feed into it. There needs to be strengthening of the central system but that is what EirGrid is working towards. It is saying that it can be done.

There is much discussion in the industry of when floating turbines may come. What is Mr. Meally's perception of that? The opportunity off the west coast is without parallel. All the briefing documents, including the documents on SEAI's website, the 2011 to 2050 strategy, show that the opportunity is without parallel. That document from 2011 suggests that in the period from 2020 to 2030, we would be exporting energy as a consequence of wave energy, but now potentially floating offshore wind. Where are we on that?

Mr. Declan Meally

Wave did not develop quite as fast. It is a very tough regime in terms of operating there. What has come on stream much faster than we realised is floating offshore wind. Floating offshore wind has been tested and proved at scale in the North Sea. A turbine does not operate at 100% of the time but in the North Sea it is possible to get about 40% to 45% of the effectiveness of the turbine and maybe even a bit higher than that. If we go into the Atlantic, we could get up to 80% because of the wind.

It is an extraordinary opportunity.

Mr. Declan Meally

There is a huge opportunity there and that floating technology has now been proven in the North Sea. We have our own Atlantic marine energy test site. We want to see that operational by 2025 to test floating offshore wind in the Atlantic. We could see them coming on stream a lot quicker than we had realised. Again, it will be the consenting because they will be much further out, beyond the horizon but much bigger scale. It is evolving at a much faster pace than people had originally realised. We will probably see floating wind coming in by around 2030.

I got a briefing from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage which anticipated it being commercially viable by 2037 and that has been pulled back repeatedly. I might put this question to the Department. I am hearing from Irish-backed operators who are operating throughout Europe that Ireland is not ready in terms of grid. It is not ready in terms of strategy. It is not operating at the pace that the market is operating at in terms of being ready for the commercial viability of offshore floating wind. Is that correct? Where are we on that?

Mr. Robert Deegan

It has been a commitment in the 2019 climate action plan to really upscale. Steps and measures are being put in place. The resources are being put in place.

What measures specifically?

Mr. Robert Deegan

The Deputy will have to forgive me. I do not work on that side of the house, myself.

I might put ask Mr. Walsh as I am short on time.

Mr. William Walsh

I thank the Deputy for her questions on this. As my colleague has outlined, the offshore opportunities are like a jigsaw. The Deputy identified the pieces of the jigsaw - the grid and the investment from developers. In SEAI we have seen a real acceleration in this. We have seen the Department focus on addressing the delays in the consenting system. Within the Department there has been an upscaling of resources in this area. We are seeing an acceleration of activity to support the deployment of offshore wind based on the timelines outlined in the climate action plan and possibly sooner given the security of supply issues arising from the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

As an organisation, we are encouraged by what we see but we need that to continue to accelerate. We also need strong engagement from communities because they are critical to this piece. Their buy-in, engagement, consultation, consent and promotion of this are very important because we have seen in the past that if we get things wrong, it pulls everything back. It is a piece that we all need to push for as a society.

I agree. That is why I am asking Mr. Walsh. I think the opportunity is extraordinary. Given that the pace has increased commercially, which is what we are hearing from industry, and that sentiment is changing regarding offshore wind not because of the climate imperative but because of the energy security difficulties that we have, there is an enormous opportunity. I see it changing in my constituency of Dún Laoghaire where we are talking about visible fixed turbines off what is a beautiful coastline. Other constituencies will also have that. I see attitudes changing considerably and the opportunity is now. I thank Mr. Walsh for answering my question. I am very interested in it and I would love to hear more from him about it in the future.

Mr. Declan Meally

In terms of the floating offshore option, it is not necessary to have a grid connection. In the North Sea they have looked at storing hydrogen in the base of the floating turbine, decanting that hydrogen and then taking it in ships back onshore. That technology can evolve in other ways rather than having everything connected to the grid. That is the other part.

I thank the witnesses for being here. I wish to touch on electric vehicles. The SEAI annual accounts highlight that half of drivers are unfamiliar with electric vehicles and how they work. Less than a quarter say they will consider purchasing an electric vehicle for their next purchase. I think 6,000 EVs had been sold by mid-August of last year. It is projected that 175,000 will be sold by 2025 according to the Department of Transport. Is it Mr. Meally's understanding that we will sell 50,000 or 55,000 vehicles per year over the next three years?

Mr. Declan Meally

There are 55,000 on the road moment. Regarding getting that to 175,000, in the past year 110,000 new cars were sold. We have doubled the number of cars that have received grant aid each year. The 55,000, which is where we are now, was actually where the trajectory was going to take us to - the 45,000 by the end of last year which we have hit. In terms of what we can sell between this year and next year, we believe there is definitely the potential and the appetite.

Does Mr. Meally believe it would be 55,000 for the next three years?

Mr. Declan Meally

There are 55,000 already there. In terms of the next-----

What will be sold each year?

Mr. Declan Meally

We see that there is a demand for at least 50,000 cars this year. The supply chain issues with semiconductors and with supplies coming from Russia and Ukraine due to unfortunate circumstances there are constraining some of the supply. Definitely the demand is there and we are seeing the demand increasing. We are on target to hit that number, the 175,000.

Regarding the target for the period from 2025 to 2030, I was trying to extrapolate out what would be expected. I have come to an average of around 169,000 cars per year for those years. Would that be correct?

Mr. Declan Meally

I am not sure in terms of the average on that. A number of factors affect getting to the 2030 target. The cars are becoming cheaper. The battery technology is becoming better. There are longer ranges for the cars that are there. The signal is being given that people will not be able to buy a new petrol or diesel car by 2030. All those factors are changing behaviour and changing people's attitudes. The survey the Deputy saw from 2020 has changed dramatically. We have done a lot of work with the dealerships. They are saying that most of the demand from people coming into their dealerships nowadays is for electric cars.

I understand the general points. I am trying to get to the specifics in terms of how many electric vehicles will actually be sold and the benefits involved. We must consider this matter in the context of average sales of electric vehicles of 169,000 over a period of time. To put that in context, car sales at the peak of the Celtic tiger were of the order of 180,000 per year. Our target is to reach the sale of 169,000 electric vehicles per year at a time we are estimating public transport journeys will increase by 15%. There is also investment going into active travel. The Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan, talks about the 15-minute city and all of that. How realistic, therefore, is it that we would sell 169,000 electric vehicles each year for five years? Is that environmentally beneficial when public transport options may be available to those people who may be in a position to purchase electric vehicles?

Mr. Declan Meally

The ambition is to reduce our transport emissions. There are currently approximately 13 million tonnes of emissions, much of which relates to private driving. We want to get people out of their cars and onto public transport at the same time as moving our car stock to electric vehicles. Behaviours and habits will change. We anticipate a fundamental transition between now and 2030. Will everybody need to own a car by 2030? That is another question we will be asking. We are constantly looking at this issue with the Department of Transport. The trajectory towards the target for electric cars shows we are on the right path. We are considering other options with the Department of Transport to make sure there are also public transport options.

I have not made up the figures around the targets for electric vehicle sales. These are the Government's established targets. In respect of those targets, is there a further breakdown of those targets for specific locations to deal with, for example, the urban-rural divide? What are the demographics involved in terms of income streams? Our guests will know that researchers from Trinity College and Queen's University Belfast have reported that electric vehicles are luxury goods. That is reflected in the sales statistics. Electric vehicles favour those who are wealthier and live in areas where there are public transport options. They do not favour those who are poorer and live in areas where there is no public transport option. Such people are hardest hit by the taxes that pay for the grants to fund these electric vehicles in the first place. Do our guests have sub-targets within the target for the overall numbers of electric vehicles that are expected to be sold?

Mr. Declan Meally

We do not have a breakdown of targets; we just have the national target. That is what we are working towards and we are on that trajectory. Electric vehicles are sold right across the board. We want to see as many electric cars as possible brought into the general stock of cars. They will then become second-hand cars, go into the fleet and work their way right through it. That is where the grants are focused.

The idea is that someone who happens to be wealthy and lives across the road from a DART station will get a grant towards a brand new electric vehicle this year and in a couple of years' time will sell it to some poor cod down the country who has been paying carbon taxes to pay for the grant in the first place.

Mr. William Walsh

I have a couple of high-level comments to make. Electric vehicles differ from internal combustion engines in their technology. I remind the Deputy of a time when widescreen televisions were luxury goods. That was not long ago. Many people now have widescreen televisions because they are available at a very cheap rate. We have seen improved technology in electric vehicles.

May I cut across Mr. Walsh for a moment? The Government did not give a grant to those people who were already in a position to purchase high-end televisions at that time.

Mr. William Walsh

That is true but the Government did not have a requirement to reduce emissions relating to televisions. If we come back to this committee room in 2025, we hope to be speaking about internal combustion engines being expensive and electric vehicles being cheap because technology is driving the market that way. That is, of course, subject to what we are seeing at the moment with the supply chain issues in the world. We in the SEAI would be delighted if we could see retrofitting follow electric vehicles. Everyone is going to be driving an electric vehicle by 2030.

We know what is in place at the moment. There is a grant available for those people who can afford the tens of thousands necessary to buy a brand new electric vehicle. The Government is giving those people a grant. Have our guests examined alternative ways of reaching the same objectives in a fairer way? Interest-free loans could be an example of that. Are there other measures that will allow those people who are crucified with carbon taxes and have no public transport options to avail of the sizeable level of Exchequer funding that is going into these schemes? Such people cannot receive that funding at the moment.

Mr. William Walsh

We anticipate electric vehicles will become cheaper than internal combustion engines in the coming years. There will be options. Electric vehicles have overturned everything. Technology is available from particular brands, which I will not name because I do not want to promote them, and vehicles are getting cheaper. There has been a fall in prices for some types of electric vehicles in recent years. Brands have come into the market. We anticipate that trend continuing.

What about the State fleet, including Garda cars, council vehicles and the vehicles used by all statutory bodies? How close are we to moving to electric vehicles in that regard? Do our guests see that improving in the coming years? Do our guests see a role for their organisation in that respect?

Mr. Declan Meally

We do. We have been working with all of the public sector to look at the option of transferring the fleet to electric vehicles.

Does Mr. Meally know the current percentages involved?

Mr. Declan Meally

I do not have that figure to hand but we can find out. It is increasing all the time. The Garda was one of the first organisations to take that on. An Post is also looking to demonstrate how that transition can be done. Local authorities are taking electric vehicles on board. It is happening across the board. All public sector organisations are taking the information on board and working with us.

Mr. William Walsh

I understand there is an intention in the climate action plan to push and force State agencies and State bodies to only purchase electric vehicles where that is feasible and possible. We have been working with the Office of Government Procurement to ensure there are easy mechanisms in place for local authorities to access centrally procured vehicles.

I wish to talk specifically about the retrofitting of houses. A very good report was issued by Age Action Ireland in respect of the need for a new energy poverty strategy. The existing poverty strategy is out of date, as I think we all know. I hope to get a sense from the SEAI of where it sits in respect of ensuring scarce resources are deployed in a manner that ensures those people who are on very low incomes and who live in fuel-impoverished houses can be targeted in a way that makes sure the resources flow down to those who are most in need. The new national retrofitting plan, which is part of the climate action plan for 2021, has a target of bringing 500,000 homes to a B2 building energy rating by 2030. Our guests can question my figures, but we know that something like 18,400 retrofits were completed in 2020, approximately 4,000 of which raised the homes concerned to a B2 standard. We must, of course, take the pandemic and the associated challenges around meeting targets into account.

That was challenging in terms of meeting targets. I want to get a sense from SEAI, from a corporate point of view, whether it sees its role as one that ensures it is not just people with means who take the lion’s share of the grants available for retrofitting because right now that is the case, and we can argue justifiably that that is the case. I want to make sure we have a system in place that ensures people who are fuel impoverished and who are on lower incomes get a greater chunk of that grant aid.

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

The Deputy is right. There is a revised energy poverty strategy in production at the moment. I am not entirely sure if it is has been completed yet, but it is being developed. On the schemes themselves, we have a very significant target. We have identified 500,000 B2-rated homes by 2030. A budget of €8 billion has been allocated to achieve that target. Half of that budget, €4 billion, is to go to the energy-poor sector. That, in itself, ring-fences that sector. Homes that meet a number of different eligibility criteria will be able to achieve that. Those homeowners get fully funded. Their retrofit, predominately as we move on and go to a B2 level, will be funded by the State. It is fair to say that half of the entire budget will go towards the energy-poor sector.

There is another subgroup in the can-pay sector, and we touched on this earlier. There are certain people who can afford a retrofit right now because they have the means and resources. There are other people who, for various reasons, do not apply for the fully funded scheme, but who are in the can-pay sector. Within that context, we are looking at and are in the process of developing a low-interest Government-backed loan scheme to allow them to be able to fund their own retrofit. The Minister also recently announced significantly enhanced grant levels for attic and cavity insulation. That figure is up to 80%. Those two measures alone are relatively quick, easy to do and can have a very significant impact on the energy and thermal performance of a home. We are taking that important principle on board. It is part of the climate action plan and the just transition that we make sure nobody is being left behind.

I appreciate that. We are all talking the language of the just transition but nobody has been able to identify what that means in real terms. Dr. Byrne talked about "energy poor", but that does not necessarily mean income poor. A distinction has to be made here. I could be living in a well-appointed, high-value house in south Dublin, for instance - I do not mean to unfairly target south Dublin or characterise it in a particular way - and it could be worth up to €1 million, but it could be energy poor. Yet, the income coming into the house might a multiple figure of what might be coming into a typical 1970s bungalow in rural north Cork, for instance. In the income levels there could be a massive disparity. I am seeking an understanding from SEAI on whether or not Government policy is being directed to ensure that SEAI targets fuel-impoverished or energy-impoverished homes, but also households where the income levels are much lower. That is the key.

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

We would have brought those two criteria together under the revised schemes, which were announced on 8 February. Previously, the eligibility criteria were disjointed from the home. The Government's decision on 8 February was to focus on the worst performing homes, which were the E, F and G rated homes. Those homes are the worst-performing homes from an energy performance perspective. In the warmer homes scheme we are prioritising those homes at the lower end of the BER scale. There is, as the Deputy can imagine, a quite significant overlap between the worst performing homes and the-----

Forgive me if I am misinterpreting Dr. Byrne but I think he saying that his role is not in respect of social policy and income thresholds, but purely on E, F, G rated homes and targeting them. However, you could be living in an E, F or G BER-rated house and be a multimillionaire with plenty of cash in the bank. I am trying to get a sense as to whether the SEAI has received direction from the Government from the point of view of having a social policy instrument that targets people who depend on the State for their income, who are on meagre pensions or who are on low incomes.

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

The eligibility criteria for the warmer homes scheme are entirely predicated on those criteria Deputy Sherlock identified. This includes the energy poverty scheme, the incapacitated child allowance and the disability allowance in that if you are on it for more than six months or have a child under seven. Those eligibility criteria are focused on those who are at the lowest end of the scale.

Forgive me if I am repeating questions that may have been asked but what is the skill set required? What is the scaling up of the skill set of the labour force in order to meet a target in excess of 500,000 homes to be retrofitted? Where does the SEAI fit into the conversation that is happening about meeting the labour needs that are required.

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

It is significantly expert. The recent report, which was published late last year, from the Expert Group on Future Skills Needs for a zero-carbon economy identified that approximately 17,000 staff are required to satisfy this part of the industry. We have been liaising with our colleagues in the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. Some €22 million was allocated this year and €70 million is going to nearly zero energy building, NZEB, and green economy for the creation of additional places. We are basically going to double the number of training places from about 2,500 up to nearly 5,000. We are also plugging directly into the education and training boards, ETBs, two of which are up and running, and three of which we are in the process of establishing, for the expressed purpose of training operatives in relation to the retrofitting industry. Areas such as Laois and Offaly have a training centre in Mount Lucas. We have linked our own contractors to the education and training board in Mount Lucas to join hands to help to get staff trained.

The point about training is very interesting. A significant amount of academic training is not required. Relatively short courses can get people upskilled, reskilled in many cases, or new into the industry. There are a number people who are starting to reskill. There are people, for example, in the plumbing industry, who are looking at how to reskill in heat pumps. There are a number courses being put on by the ETBs in that regard. It is about scaling up. We are lifting all the boats, but we have been plugged in very closely to the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science and the ETBs on that.

Based on Dr. Byrne’s reply to earlier questions, am I to understand SEAI's policy intervention in relation to granting of high-end EVs is leaving it to the market to decide on where the technology will land? Does that mean that when the technological solution becomes cheaper, that is where things will land in terms of a demand, supply and a price point? I ask this because, based on Dr. Byrne’s previous replies in respect of electric vehicles, that while it has built in thresholds in terms of grants, it seems it is ultimately waiting for the market to decide the cost of the vehicle. With respect, I am not sure if that is the right policy intervention. I would be glad to hear his views on that.

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

There is a high-up value threshold of €60,000, which is the maximum limit for a car that can get a grant of €5,000. The lower limit is €14,000. There are no cars at the lower level. The grant is even right across the board. Originally, we were giving grants to plug-in hybrids, which also had petrol and diesel. That was phased out because, there was a battery plus an engine on that car. The grant is now only for battery electric vehicles. This is about making sure as many emissions are removed from the system as possible. It is emissions based, rather looking at what the market is doing. We are narrowing the bands as necessary.

Following on from Deputy Carthy’s question, the total cost of ownership of an electric car, for anybody doing the maths, is way less than a petrol or diesel car. It is about anybody right around Ireland looking at what it costs them to run on petrol and diesel, as well as the cost of their loan or whether the vehicle was second hand. They could probably get a new electric car and run it for less than they would for a second-hand petrol or diesel car at the moment. We are encouraging everybody to look at this, anywhere in Ireland. Everybody should be doing the maths and seeing that this is an opportunity.

Mr. Declan Meally

I would like to add one final comment. As the Deputy will know, a grant is an incentivisation to address a market failure.

Mr. William Walsh

I wish to add a final comment. A grant is an incentivisation to address a market failure. The Department of Transport makes policy in the area of supports and subventions for electric vehicles We have demonstrated through the recent policy adjustments we can be agile when we see market interventions that are required, such as the €60,000 cap that was put in or the PHEVs dropping from the scheme. When we see these measures, they can be responded to in a flexible and agile way. That is important in terms of ensuring that Exchequer funding goes to support market failure and to incentivise technology that we want.

We will take a break now.

Sitting suspended at 11.11 a.m. and resumed at 11.22 a.m.

Deputy Verona Murphy is next.

I thank the Chairman and wish the officials a good morning. I am delighted they are before us and have been listening intently from my office. I have a couple of quick-fire questions on electric car chargers. Is there a wait time for having a charger fitted at the home?

Mr. Declan Meally

Not that we are aware of. Again, it would depend on the local electricians. There are quite a lot of electricians qualified right around the country.

What would Mr. Meally say the average time is, from purchasing a car to having the charger fitted at the home?

Mr. Declan Meally

This is only a-----

That is grand. Mr. Walsh can reply.

Mr. William Walsh

I am waiting for my electric charger to be fitted. It is due on 7 April and I ordered it about a month ago. I would say about a month.

Okay. That is not so bad.

Mr. William Walsh

However, it depended on the installer. I suggest people shop around because some of them are busier than others.

That is grand. The other aspect is whether chargers are interchangeable. If I buy a Volkswagen electric car this year and a Nissan in three years or whatever, are they interchangeable?

Mr. Declan Meally

They are, yes.

There would be no extra cost to me as a purchaser. I am not going to have to change the whole thing.

Mr. Declan Meally

No. It is a standard plug. It is an external fitting so there is no issue there.

That is grand. I thank Mr. Meally and Mr. Walsh.

I move to wind farm construction. Clearly, we are in the throes of an energy crisis and more or less an energy war. With that in mind, I am very concerned that not only might we not meet targets but that we might not be anywhere near them. When you are looking at infrastructural construction projects like we are, 2030 is not that far away. Particular to that is a wind farm energy hub or construction base that has been proposed for Rosslare Europort. Many of our own experts say it is the ideal strategic place for an infrastructure hub. Given our nearest neighbours are no longer in the EU, does the SEAI have any input into where we should place a construction hub?

Mr. Declan Meally

On the construction pieces, they are going to be needed right around the country. It is not something the SEAI is directly involved in. The Irish Maritime Development Office, IMDO, looks at it and it would have been looking at the ports development. It is part of a wider cross-departmental group that is looking at the infrastructure and the evolution as to what needs to happen. We in the SEAI are looking at the research area, the technologies and what needs to happen, for example, across the grid. The ongoing discussion is about where they are going to be located, because we are not going to be manufacturing a lot of them but they will need lay-down areas close to the ports, such as at Rosslare or even Killybegs, which has started into that area as well. It is going to be deciding where is the land that is needed and how can they have quay access to it. It does not need large infrastructure but will need quay access and that is going to take some time.

Yes, but at the moment we do not have anywhere. I am aware we used Rosslare, for instance, for Arklow Bay but on a much larger scale, Rosslare is not ready and does not currently have the funding for an infrastructural project of this size. I would appreciate it were the SEAI to be making that case effectively. I understand if it is not within its remit but we might have to join the dots a little more here to get these projects under way.

Mr. Declan Meally

It is certainly part of the interdepartmental groups that are looking at the planning, infrastructure, ports-----

The SEAI is part of that.

Mr. Declan Meally

Yes.

Then I would appreciate it if Mr. Meally could pass that on because strategically, it is the best-placed port from the east and south-east coast.

Mr. Declan Meally

Without a doubt.

We are all about the economics of it so that is where the Committee of Public Accounts comes in.

I would not want anyone to think this is pointed but we are the Committee of Public Accounts and I want to ask about a significant increase in the CEO's remuneration from 2019 to date. Has there been any increase in 2021?

Ms Marion O'Brien

On the increase from 2019 to 2020, that mainly relates to there being an interim CEO in place during 2020 and it was the uplift in salary from one year to the next. As Mr. Walsh has now been appointed as CEO, there is an uplift in salary in 2021.

There is an uplift, okay.

Ms Marion O'Brien

A modest uplift, yes.

A modest uplift, okay. Is there is a basis for that? Is that an annual-----

Ms Marion O'Brien

Yes.

-----remuneration increase?

Ms Marion O'Brien

It would have been the grading structure at the appropriate level, as agreed with the Department, for the position.

Okay. That is fine.

Going back to what we said about electric cars, everything related to our 2030 targets is based on cars because it is not based on commercial vehicles. There is not, as yet, any suitable replacement. They cannot correlate the weight increase in the batteries and the unladen weight of the vehicle for the payload. Does the SEAI have any input into that? Does it have any engagement with the commercial sector on where it may go with electric vehicles or ones that use alternatives to fossil fuels?

Mr. Declan Meally

We do. There are a number of engagements. Over the years we have had much work with the commercial operators on efficiency opportunities. That was with bus operators and including the public buses, Dublin Bus and the operators of the bus fleets. One group we work with that the Deputy may know is Matthews Coaches. It goes up and down the east coast. We went through much efficiency training with that operator and it was able to save €60,000 off its annual fuel bills just by looking at how to operate the fleet more efficiently.

On fuels of the future, the Deputy is right to ask whether it is going to be electric for the large-scale commercials. It is unlikely. It may be some form of hydrogen or the liquefied petroleum gas, LPG, in terms of some of the gas operators. We obviously work with the Department of Transport as well as the commercial fleet operators to see what the opportunities are and to do some research into this area and what the technologies will be. They are very expensive at the moment. On what is there, the Department of Transport provides some opportunities to do some research and to trial some vehicles in that area.

I am only aware of one scheme with regard to purchasing gas trucks as an alternative. That had nothing to do with the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, did it?

Mr. Declan Meally

We are looking at this as part of the research element but the scheme was worked through the Department of Transport. Bord Gáis was also involved in relation to the----

What feedback does the SEAI have on the matter now?

Mr. Declan Meally

It shows that there is a solution there. It may not be the only solution but it is certainly worth looking at.

Mr. Meally should be aware, so that he can take the information back, that every gas truck is now parked up on a forecourt because gas has now exceeded the price of even diesel, which is extraordinary. The Department and all of the relevant groups that attended were advised that it was not a viable option to only have gas trucks, particularly for an island nation, because gas trucks cannot be shipped in a ship's hull. It just cannot be done. There has to be a level of engagement greater than that required to just tick the box. Input from the sector, which has knowledge of what it is doing, must be recognised. That is very important if we are ever to have alternative energy in the commercial sector on an island.

Mr. Declan Meally

I understand. The Deputy knows the sector better than anybody. It is those in the sector who have the knowledge. In respect of taking that knowledge in with regard to fleet operations and the trucks that are there, we listen to-----

I am concerned that we have now spent millions moving in the wrong direction. I am a politician on the Committee of Public Accounts and as much as it is my responsibility to show that up, it is the authority's responsibility as a sustainable energy group to make sure its input recognises it in all of these gatherings. That is what is wrong. We are not actually getting the message out there. Representatives of the sector are brought in, a box is ticked and then we move on. That has happened over the years, particularly in respect of that grant. The sector has proposed grants to the Department and I hope the SEAI will get sight of these proposals and take a look at them because, if the sector is proposing grants, it is prepared to roll them out. Over its lifetime, a Euro 6-compliant diesel-engine truck is as clean as a Euro 6-compliant gas-engine truck. There is absolutely no difference when it comes to the environment. There is a difference in the fuel that goes in and where it comes from but the reality is that, from a sustainability perspective, we need to move with what the sector can afford and Ireland is an exception in that we are an island nation. There must be regard to that.

The next speaker is Deputy Devlin, who is online. He is not responding. Deputy McAuliffe is not with us yet and Deputy Burke is not here either. I have some questions of my own to move along with.

On the national retrofitting plan, there is co-funding from the European Union. The figures that I have seen show that this co-funding is quite small. It is in the thousands. Is that correct? What percentage of funding for the national retrofitting plan is made up of EU matching funding?

Mr. Robert Deegan

The warmer homes scheme was part-funded through the European regional development fund. I do not have the figures to hand but there was a significant amount of-----

What was the percentage?

Mr. Robert Deegan

The SEAI may be able to confirm this but I believe 50% was given back on a certain level of expenditure. There have been more recent developments on the European funding front. We were successful in an application for support for the new loan guarantee scheme under the recovery and resilience fund. Some €40 million has been provided for that. We are also in the process of applying for the next round of European regional development fund, ERDF, funding.

As a State, have we been successful in drawing down the full amount?

Mr. Robert Deegan

From the SEAI perspective, we have been successful in drawing down the full amount.

That is good to hear. I will move back to the issue of electric vehicles. The target is to have almost 1 million such vehicles by 2030. We currently have 55,000 totally electric plug-in vehicles, as opposed to hybrid vehicles. Is that correct?

Mr. Declan Meally

That is correct.

I will keep this concise. The figures I have seen show that more than 13,000 such vehicles were bought last year. To ramp this up to 945,000, close to 1 million, by 2030 we would need an average of 130,000 per year or, if starting at our current pace, to scale up to 170,000 or 180,000 in the second half of this decade. The average number of cars sold in a year veers between 90,000 and 110,000. I have been following very carefully Mr. Meally's comments on the desire for that total increase and on why it makes sense but, if there are only 100,000 cars being sold a year on average, how realistic is it to ramp up to 170,000 or 180,000 and meet those targets by 2030?

Mr. Declan Meally

I thank the Deputy for the question. As I outlined earlier, the 55,000 we are at now aligns with the trajectory we had expected based on our forecasting.

To be brief, is it realistic to get that point?

Mr. Declan Meally

Yes, it is. There are quite a number of factors coming into play. One is that the cars are getting cheaper. It does mean that, by 2027 or 2028, nearly all new cars will have to be electric cars.

Total car sales are circa 100,000.

Mr. Declan Meally

Yes, 120,000-----

We will have to get closer to 200,000 in the second half of the decade. How realistic is that? Are we expecting the number of new cars bought every year to double?

Mr. Declan Meally

No but we are expecting the proportion of new cars being bought that are electric to double every year over the coming years. It was roughly 12% and could be a quarter of cars this year, depending on the supply chain. It will then be half of all cars the following year. That is the way the market is going.

That is fine. I follow that. The problem is, even if 100% of cars being bought are electric, that will be insufficient at the current rate at which new cars are purchased. Cars are also going to become more expensive, disposable income is going to drop this year and many people will be facing greater financial pressure for the next couple of years. The first thing people do in such circumstances is not to change their car as quickly. The point I am trying to make is that, even if 100% of cars bought are electric from 2024 onwards, we will still not reach that target of 1 million. That is the point I am making. We will not do it for the simple reason that the total number of cars sold is not high enough, even if every one of them is electric. At this point, it does not look like a realistic target.

Mr. Declan Meally

From our consultations with the Department and looking at the figures and what was in the climate action plan, we believe it is realistic and something that can be achieved. Like all of our targets, there are challenges involved. There are 2 million cars on the road and we are looking at close to half that number being electric. The number is 870,000-odd. With regard to the trajectory, we are going in the right direction and hitting the targets.

It is welcome that it is ramping up but the point I am trying to make is that, even if everyone who wants to change their car goes out and buys an electric car, unless the current number of new cars sold each year increases dramatically, which is unlikely given what is happening and given increased availability of public transport and decreased reliance on the private car, one would have to assume the target will be difficult to achieve.

I will move on for a moment. When was the cap of €60,000 in respect of the grant introduced?

Mr. Declan Meally

From memory, that cap of €60,000 was introduced in the middle of last year.

Was there a cap before then?

Mr. Declan Meally

No, there was not.

I was looking at the figures for last year and grants were paid out for 1,467 BMW vehicles, 44 Jaguar vehicles, 439 Mercedes-Benz vehicles and 315 Land Rover vehicles.

Payments were made in respect of 174 top-of-the-range Land Rover Evoque vehicles. I welcome the fact that there is a cap on it, but I would argue that the cap is too high. The point I make is that the people who purchased them had cash, or had a very friendly bank manager and the ability to repay the loan. They were able to afford them. An average worker on the median wage, as opposed to the average wage, of approximately €30,000 and living in a rural or semi-rural constituency such as Laois-Offaly would not have a hope of being able to buy even a small electric car at this point, in addition to paying a mortgage and the costs of commuting and everything else. Such workers are essentially paying the carbon tax for the cohort that are able to afford to buy these vehicles. I got the full list from the Department of Transport of what was bought last year and, to be honest, I was taken aback. Instead of welcoming the cap of €60,000, I would argue that it is too high. Does Mr. Meally not think it is too high, especially given the fact that the price of electric cars is going down?

Mr. Declan Meally

First, every car for which we provided the €5,000 grant is a benefit to the State, as it is one less car that is petrol or diesel. The State is getting the benefit of that. Any of the cars that were incentivised above the limit in the early days were a benefit to the State. It is good value in terms of the emissions reduction and the reduction of the fleet of petrol and diesel vehicles. The cap of €60,000 is constantly reviewed and we consider whether it needs to be reduced. For anybody who is considering buying a car, there are still lots of SUVs and other cars that are being bought in the €50,000 to €60,000 range. We are trying to incentivise as many people as possible to purchase an electric car and to get them into the fleet. That is what we are working on with the Minister and the Department to ensure that the €5,000 grant is going to result in getting as many cars as possible.

A lot of the vehicles on the list are SUVs that will never be off the road because they were purchased in the Dublin area. The other figures I got relate to where cars were bought. The latest figure I received for the total number of electric cars in County Laois, for example, is 457 and there were 349 in County Offaly. In Dublin there were 21,519. If we look at the figures for cars bought last year, 210 were bought in County Laois, 167 were bought in County Offaly and 9,816 were bought in Dublin. The list from the Department shows that of the charging points available, there are just ten in County Laois, eight in County Offaly and 159 in Dublin. If we look at the grants that were paid last year, 153 people in County Laois received grants, a lesser figure in County Offaly of 145 received grants, and there were 5,087 in County Dublin. I want to be clear that I am not having a go at people who live in County Dublin, but there is a very high percentage of the large vehicles, which are worth between €50,000 and €60,000. It is possible to buy a good electric car for €35,000 or €40,000, and as Mr. Meally pointed out, the price is going down. He mentioned the value to the State. In effect, what is happening is that people living in rural counties are driving the longest distances because they are not living within the 15-minute city that is promoted by the Minister. It is good for people who do live in such areas. We want people to live nearer to where they work. The point I make is that a greater level of benefit would be achieved environmentally if people in rural areas who are on average incomes or the median wage were able to buy an electric car and had the charging points, which they clearly do not have, because across two counties in the midlands there are only 18 charging points, as opposed to 159 in Dublin. Given the way this has worked out, people in rural areas, who will be caught for higher carbon taxes, excise and everything else, are effectively subsidising others - in general, a better-off cohort who live in County Dublin and who travel short distances in areas where there is public transport available - to buy very large vehicles, according to the figures given by the Department of Transport. There is a significant transfer here. It goes completely against logic. There are issues to be addressed in that regard. I know there are many poor people in Dublin. There are tens of thousands of people in Dublin on very low wages, but the figures show that the vast majority of cars are being bought in city areas or close to city areas where there is the least environmental benefit or need because there is public transport available and they are travelling short distances. Does Mr. Meally accept the logic of what I am saying, that there is an issue there to be addressed? People on the median wage in rural areas are effectively subsidising the purchase of luxury vehicles where they are least needed.

Mr. Declan Meally

Obviously the spread of where cars are being bought is based on population numbers. I do not accept that people in rural areas are subsidising the urban spread. As you are aware, Chairman, cars are being bought right around the country. The percentage of sales varies, obviously in regard to the overall numbers because we would expect more to be bought in Dublin due to the higher population there.

The carbon tax goes towards home upgrades to address fuel poverty. It is not the case, as you stated, Chairman, that it goes to wealthier car owners in the Dublin area. It is right across the board. For every petrol or diesel car that we can replace, it is important to the State and it is a benefit to the State to make sure that cars are electric. There will be continual reviews regarding the grants. That is what the Department officials, the Minister and the SEAI look at in terms of the caps to see what opportunities there are to change them.

When people do the maths on the overall cost of running a petrol or diesel car - there are cars available at all different price bands - it is way cheaper to run an electric car whether one lives in Laois, Offaly, Dublin or in my area of Longford.

I accept that. There is a problem here and now and for the coming years for many people in those areas or people who are living in Dublin and have to travel to Kildare to work. This is not exclusive to the midlands. People in Dublin who have to travel out of Dublin for work are affected. Workers on the median to average wage who are not in a position to buy an electric vehicle, who do not have the cash upfront, and who cannot raise the finance are effectively caught. They have to do considerably longer journeys. I am a great advocate of getting people working close to home and, if possible, from home.

We need to move people away from commuting, which is important. For now, as things are designed within the economy, that is where matters stand. Those to whom I refer are not in a position to make that change at this point. They have to pay the extra carbon tax while those who can afford to purchase electric vehicles up to the value of €60,000 get a grant of €10,000, which is substantial. I would argue that the cap should be looked at again in terms of the vehicle involved. I worked in the motor trade a long time ago. I am no longer involved but one of my family is. Should we be subsidising luxury cars? That is the question. People who have to travel a distance need reasonably good vehicles; they do not need luxury cars. I am not sure that we should be subsidising them to that level while people who cannot afford these vehicles are stuck in high-emission petrol or diesel vehicles.

Mr. William Walsh

I thank the Chairman for his analysis. It is very helpful to us in reflecting on the issues that are faced in communities. A couple of points occurred to me as he was outlining the position. The policy changes will adjust a great deal of the information that the Chairman has on the types of vehicles involved. Some of those luxury brands simply are not the subject of a grant any more because they are not fully electric battery models. I would be interested to see the figures for next year when we have a full year of information on the new policy change and the reduction in the cap.

On the price, we have discussed the fact that it is less that the price is coming down but that there are more models available now in a lower price band. Undoubtedly, supply chain costs have increased the price of everything, including steel and semiconductors. That has been reflected through to the prices of certain models. However, there are more vehicles available in the cheaper bands because there are new models.

Technology will be of extremely useful for people in rural communities. What we are seeing now - my colleague Mr. Meally, has outlined this - is that range anxiety is not as strong an issue. Albeit that matters are evolving, there are plans to put more infrastructure in place and to have home charging points to encourage 80% of people to do it.

We have the policy adjustments, the changes to technology and the introduction of a second-hand market. There is simply no second-hand market for electric vehicles at the moment but as the numbers increase, we will see a functioning second-hand market. The motor industry has also stated that this is the very first time that a completely new type of vehicle has been brought in to replace a completely old type of vehicle.

My final point on the carbon tax is that it is not hypothecated for electric vehicles. Exchequer funding pays for the grants that have been issued to people for vehicles, but not the carbon tax specifically. Much of the carbon tax has been ring-fenced for some of our retrofit works and for other environmental initiatives, which they are dictated by policy.

I understand that the SEAI does not set the policy, but I ask that it keep this matter under review. Obviously, it makes recommendations to Government. I am of the view that the information needs to go back to the Government.

I do not expect Mr. Walsh to have the answer for this next question but could he furnish it to the committee later. The number of charging points is outlined in the figures we received about a month ago from the Department. Can Mr. Walsh provide information on the increase in the number of points planned across the country? If we are going to get people down the country into electric cars, there are only 18 points across the midland counties. In that context, it should be remembered that the distance from Carlow to Shannon Harbour is 90 miles. If someone parks at Portlaoise railway station in the morning, plugs in their vehicle and goes off on the train, that charging point is taken up for the entire day. Can Mr. Walsh come back to us with information on what is likely to happen this year and on the plans are there to increase the number of points, perhaps by way of a table? I do not expect him to provide that information now.

Mr. William Walsh

I thank the Chairman again. The point raised by Deputy Munster on our engagement with local authorities and their take-up of an available grant might be useful in that context. We will certainly come back to the committee and see what we can do.

When doing that, can the SEAI let us know what local authorities have applied for these grants? We need to ask those that have not applied why they have not done so. Is it a grant of €5,000 for each local authority?

Mr. William Walsh

Yes, it is per charger installation.

It is per charge point. How much is the grant for the home-charging point?

Mr. William Walsh

It is €600.

Six hundred euro.

Mr. William Walsh

This is with a total cost of around €1,200 to fully install. The grant is €600 and it will cost the homeowner €600.

Will this include the take of the local authorities that have applied? It would be useful for us to know that? I thank our witnesses and call Deputy Colm Burke.

I thank the Chairman. I apologise to him and to our guests for being late for the meeting. I had a number of prior engagements. I thank our guests for their presentation.

I wish to raise number of questions, some of which may have been covered already. My apologies if that is the case. One of my concerns relates to the timeframe, namely, from the time an application is lodged to the inspection taking place. I was contacted by one person recently and it took two years from the time the application for the inspection to be carried out. Are there targets in place? I am aware that Covid happened during those two years. The house of the person involved was built with cavity blocks, not cavity walls, so one can imagine the waste of energy involved. The person made an application for approval by the SEAI but it was two years before someone came to inspect the house. This person was also told that the SEAI would engage with the contractor to do the work. What is the expected timeframe from start to finish? Have targets been set? I accept that there may have been a problem with inspectors. Additional moneys have been allocated and staff are to be employed. Will targets be set over the next 12 months? If so, what will they be? How will the SEAI assess matters in the context of delivery?

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

That question pertains to what we call the warmer homes scheme, which is the energy poverty scheme. The Deputy will appreciate that the scheme was very much buckled by Covid-19. We were stymied in being unable to go out to and get into homes because many of the homeowners on the scheme are vulnerable. The cycle time, from the time of the first application to completion, was 17.5 months. It was up to 24 months, again, because we had substantial closures of the building sector. Even when the commercial building sector opened up, the warmer homes scheme was somewhat delayed because we were going in to individuals homes who were vulnerable. The cycle time then is 17.5 months and we have built up a waiting list because of the Covid-19 period. As of the end of December 2021, there were 7,500 homes on that list. We have a target of 4,800 homes to complete on the scheme this year and we expect to get another 3,000 applications in on the scheme. We intend to bring the closing balance of the waiting list down and achieve, approximately, a 30% reduction on the waiting list in 2022 and, ultimately, it will be in 2023 that we intend to remove the waiting lists.

In this particular house, an inspection took place after two years and still no work has been done. We are now running to two and a half years. From the time that the application went in then to the time of the work being done, it is going to run from three to three and a half years.

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

Is the Deputy talking about the inspection at the end of the process? I was referring to the survey at the start of the process.

Yes, my apologies. I was referring to the survey at the start the process.

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

It is just that there are two parts to the process. The Deputy is correct on the survey time, because we have changed the average time from the application date to a survey being allocated. This has now been reduced to seven and a half months but there is a backlog going back to 2021 and will last until 2023.

The survey has now taken place so when would that person expect to have the work done?

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

The current average time from the survey being carried out to works being allocated is four and a half months. From the works being allocated to completion, the period is five and a half months. We have 33 contractors in the scheme and we have been increasing the number of allocations to the contractors. That is, giving the work to them and driving the output. Of the 7,500 applications on the work in progress, approximately 3,000 of those homes have been allocated out to contractors, as we speak, and we will be doing the next allocation in May and April.

Does Dr. Byrne not accept that 33 contractors for the entire country is very small number in real terms if the SEAI really wants to make an impact on this scheme? It should be remembered that it has a great deal of additional money in its budget for this year. If it only has 33 contractors for the entire country, does Dr. Byrne not accept that is too low a number to get delivery of the volume of work the SEAI wants to be achieved?

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

That is a good question and the short answer is that I accept that. I want to clarify that of those 33 contractors, many are doing work directly themselves and many also utilise a range of subcontractors on the scheme. Part of the Government announcement on 8 February was to increase the volume of output of the scheme so we need more people participating in the scheme, which I accept. We are putting measures in place to try to get greater output from the contractors and to try to attract more people in the industry into the scheme.

Dr. Byrne mentions the output from the current contractors. All building contractors will say they have challenges recruiting employees. One may even run into difficulties with the existing 33 contractors as regards delivery. When it comes to getting new contractors into the scheme, what time target does the SEAI have?

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

We are in a four-year framework agreement with the contractors and we are starting into year two of the framework. We have been looking into that framework and seeing how viable it is but we are tied into a framework agreement so we want to try to get greater output from the current suite of contractors and work with the industry to try to attract more contractors in. The Deputy mentioned the current market conditions in supply chain and labour but there is also a significant push in the new build housing market. We are working to try to attract more contractors in and what they are looking for, which we are trying to work towards, is aggregation to make it commercially viable for them.

A number of the people I have been talking to in the building industry over the past two weeks have made the point that a lot of people have walked away from contracts for building work. They have decided not go ahead with their house extensions or renovations. I spoke to one builder who lost three building contracts in one week and they were contracts for new houses. We may well have a situation where contractors will be out there looking for work. People are looking at cost and everything else but this scheme provides a huge saving to the State and the homeowner in energy efficiency. Is it time to focus on trying to get new contractors in and, at the same time, work with the existing contractors to improve the delivery time?

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

Those are the two areas of focus for us within the scheme. We are looking to get greater and deeper output from the current cohort of contractors and we are trying to attract more contractors in. We are not just talking about today, next week or next month. We have targets out to 2030 so we are starting to build that scale.

I have dealt with a lot of building contractors over the years and they have often mentioned the timescale for getting paid, especially in public service contracts. It is a big complaint that I constantly receive. What is the average time from when a contract is finished to the contractor getting paid?

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

It is in the region of 12 weeks but I do not have the exact figure. Under the warmer homes scheme we are bringing payment time much closer to the contract finish time. We have engaged internally in a number of process changes, which allows us to maintain our-----

Why does it take 12 weeks? Normally, when a bill is sent out it must be paid within 30 days. A period of 12 weeks is equal to three months or 90 days. If we want to get people into this scheme to deliver on projects then surely we will have to deliver payment. I presume the contractors would provide materials at a cost and materials are extremely costly. Therefore, should the SEAI not try to bring forward the payment time?

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

The reason it takes 12 weeks is one of the last parts of a home upgrade is the reclipping of the electrical wires, which takes a period and then the home is fully complete. We have looked at bringing that payment cycle much closer so the contractors do not have a cash flow problem and so they can deliver more homes. We are engaged on that issue.

Ms Marion O'Brien

I want to clarify that we make interim payments that are paid within a short period once we receive the notification and claims from the contractors. The average time would not be 3 months for all payments; it might be for the final payment.

Mr. William Walsh

As a public sector body we are required to make payments within 30 days of receiving an invoice and we do so without any issue. The number of penalties we have to pay in that regard are minuscule in our overall budget and they are rare cases. When we get a final invoice on account we pay it within the 30 days that is required of us as a public body. As a body that deals with builders, contractors and staged payments, there is a little bit of nuance that Dr. Byrne and Ms O'Brien have touched on but we pay contractors. Suppliers like working with us because we pay on time as agreed in the contract arrangements.

I raise this issue because I hear that quite a number of contractors have walked away from doing work for local authorities because they are finding huge delays in payment, that no one will talk to them but that they have to pay the suppliers. Supplies are even more difficult to get so a lot of builders are having to pay up front for them, which puts even more pressure on them. That is why I am raising the importance of this issue.

I invite members to come in for a second round starting with Deputy Catherine Murphy.

We know about the European Green Deal with €1.8 trillion allocated to it. I am looking at the SEAI's accounts, which comprise government grants with a small proportion coming in through the BER. Is the State missing out on European funding? Is it drawing down everything that is available to us? What can be expected when it comes to European funding? Is the SEAI concerned about inflation in the construction sector and can that be mitigated by bulk-buying, for example? I am specifically thinking about retrofitting in that regard.

I refer to the public charging points. The local authorities are slow on this. When somebody is considering buying an electric car, for example, the range of that car is important. People have to know that when they get somewhere they will be able to charge up and come back. That should not involve having to knock on somebody's door and ask to plug one's car in. I live in Leixlip and yesterday I looked up where the public charging point is, and there is one in the railway station. Some 16,000 people live in Leixlip so if that is an example of how it is around the country we are far off the mark because people would be competing for that one charging point.

Mr. William Walsh

I will ask my colleagues to come in but I will give a high-level overview on European funding and the role of the SEAI. In some of our research we are involved as a partner organisation to European projects such as offshore wind. For example in the North, there is a European electric vehicle charging project. We also play a role as the European delegate in allowing both academic and industry access to European funding. We are the conduit with which bodies can apply for European funding.

That would not be obvious from the SEAI's accounts-----

Mr. William Walsh

No.

-----because it is a facilitator. Is there a direct relationship for the SEAI in drawing down funding?

Mr. William Walsh

Our warmer homes scheme is partially funded by the ERDF but the funding is reclaimed. In 2021, we were able to reclaim 50% of our warmer homes scheme expenditure from 2014 to 2020. The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform reclaimed half of the cost of our warmer homes scheme for that six-year period. As our colleagues in the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications outlined earlier, we have been successful in the first round of applications for funding from the ERDF to cover our fuel poor scheme for the future as well.

We are involved with drawing down European funding as an organisation and as a catalyst for others to draw down on it.

Will Mr. Walsh give us a note on that? I think the committee would find it useful.

Mr. William Walsh

Absolutely. We can give the committee a note on that. I will hand the Deputy over on construction inflation to Dr. Byrne, who looks after retrofit.

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

That is a concern of ours right now. There were headlines in the paper about 40-year highs in inflation. The accepted figure at the end of last year was about 7%. Even within that 7%, the wholesale price index showed higher price rises in some of the fittings used in retrofits. Plaster and electric fittings went up by 20%, insulation by 11% and pipes and fittings by 10%. That is all effectively history because of what has happened in the past month in Ukraine. Things have taken another hop up. We are keeping a close eye on it and are in contact with our suppliers, particularly on the warmer homes scheme.

We have considered bulk buying but there is considerable risk to an organisation like ours, so we typically fund grants through others to do it. We have been talking to local authorities and things like that. One of the ways to try to mitigate inflation is aggregation. If a contractor goes into a housing estate and does a home here and there, it is expensive. If a local authority or approved housing body, for example, can go in and do a range of homes in one go, it gets economies of scale. Inflation is running at a rate we have not seen in 40 years.

How is that achieved outside of local authorities or approved housing bodies?

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

We are starting off with the one-stop shops and working closely with them to help them target homes and places where they will get best bang for their buck. There are two sides of the scheme. One is local authorities and approved housing bodies, where they know their stock. For the private sector, we want to make the one-stop shops as efficient as possible in targeting schemes and homes so when they are pounding the streets they are going to the right places to get results. We use things like the BER database and existing information we have. We are working with the one-stop shops that are coming through to help them in that space.

I will raise two points. I am surprised that SEAI has moved premises, resulting in an increase in its energy consumption of 76%. Will the witnesses give me an explanation? I would like to see what is behind it.

The SEAI's budget has increased threefold, from €145 million to €446 million. It has more than doubled the number of employees. What oversight is in place? What steps has SEAI taken to ensure new staff are trained to the degree necessary to ensure internal controls are maintained to a high standard, particularly in relation to the increase in budget?

Mr. William Walsh

I will ask our director of corporate services to cover off on our building but I will start on the second question on the increase in our budgets and the steps we have taken to ensure oversight and governance of those changes. From a human resources perspective, we have been fortunate that Government has seen fit to support the organisation with increased resources to hire people. We have a strategic HR plan that has a module looking at induction. It has been difficult with all that has happened, including people working virtually and that, to get people upskilled and trained but we have worked with our managers and heads of department to ensure our new staff are trained and fully productive in their work. We have engaged with experts who have helped us to adopt frameworks and models and surveyed staff to ensure they are clear on the roles we are asking them to do.

Is there a module that safeguards any abuse in process with regard to money and budgets?

Mr. William Walsh

Absolutely. We have an audit and risk committee in SEAI that does five to six internal audits per year-----

I am talking about training, to prevent it rather than deal with it afterwards.

Mr. William Walsh

We have had training for staff in fraud identification. We have software and technology in our schemes tied into our online application-----

I do not expect Mr. Walsh to reel it off. Will he send us a note on what exactly is in place so we can rest assured?

Mr. William Walsh

Absolutely.

The next question was on the 76% increase in energy consumption.

Ms Marion O'Brien

I will add to the CEO's comment on governance. Training is in place and there is also monitoring and we run workshops. We will send the committee a note on that. It is quite a layered system.

Ms Marion O'Brien

We need to ensure new staff are familiar with it.

On energy, the SEAI moved from shared office accommodation in Wilton Place with IDA and SFI in 2019. The space in Three Park Place is more than double.

How many employees are there now versus where the organisation was?

Ms Marion O'Brien

The number of employees is now 130. We had about 91 or 93 in the old building. We have scope to increase to our planned target of 200.

SEAI is not just based in Dublin, but has offices around the country. The Department of Environment, Climate and Communications is in Wexford. I am familiar with the building, which is pretty expansive. Could SEAI have used that building, moved to Wexford or partially decentralised?

Ms Marion O'Brien

We have offices in Cork, Dundalk and Sligo. I was not there at the time so I do not know if Wexford was looked at. We are now looking at a blended working policy.

Is SEAI not concerned about its increase in energy consumption?

Ms Marion O'Brien

Our energy efficiency is improved on our older building.

It may be improved but consumption has increased by 76%.

Ms Marion O'Brien

Because the space has more than doubled. Per square metre, it has reduced.

What is the cost per square metre?

Ms Marion O'Brien

Our efficiency levels have decreased by about 9% per square metre.

How many square metres does SEAI have now?

Ms Marion O'Brien

We have just over 27,000 sq ft.

Does SEAI own the building or is it the OPW?

Ms Marion O'Brien

It is leased.

Ms Marion O'Brien

No, it is not leased from the OPW. It is a shared lease. We are a sub-tenant of the IDA.

Did SEAI have any input into the makeup of the building from an energy efficiency perspective?

Ms Marion O'Brien

We did.

Okay. How much space is left for expansion? The SEAI expects to take on more people. Does it have space in that building?

Mr. William Walsh

Absolutely. We have enough space in the building to move to 200 people in Dublin. Our trajectory this year will be to hire 50 staff. We will have space for them in our Dublin office. We have a footprint in Dundalk and smaller offices in other parts of the country, as outlined by Ms O'Brien.

I am more concerned about the energy consumption in the city. Is it a viable prospect to share office space with the likes of the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications in Wexford?

Mr. William Walsh

We have a ten-year lease with the IDA for the offices we have-----

Mr. William Walsh

Yes. As part of the one-stop shop and the growth of the organisation we, like many organisations, have been forced, in order to attract staff, to look around and work to the needs of staff. It might not be Wexford; it might be Sligo with Enterprise Ireland or the IDA.

But SEAI is looking at it.

Mr. William Walsh

Absolutely. We are engaged with the hub piece as well.

Will the witnesses send the note on the other question? That is grand. I thank the witnesses.

On energy supply, the Department might take the following question. In the discussion earlier, the SEAI's point of view was that there would not be a problem in relation to extra EVs, EV charging points or retrofitting and heat pumps.

However, we are planning to install 600,000 heat pumps, according to the briefing, and there will be 945,000 electric cars and the charging points for those. EirGrid is saying everything is okay, but there were a number of reports over the winter, and we had a very mild winter, of the grid being on orange alert. If we were on an orange alert when there was no fuel supply issue, what is the situation? If we add another 600,000 heat pumps and 1 million electric vehicles, are we sure we will have enough electricity on the grid? Is this not going to cause problems and potential blackouts? It is to be hoped it will not.

Mr. Robert Deegan

There were particular circumstances that arose over the winter that have since resolved. The climate action plan and the energy plans are being progressed in a very integrated way, looking at both demand reduction and electrification and then making sure there is the relevant supply of electricity and the grid capacity to deal with that. There are the existing plans and a forthcoming energy security plan. That will make sure that we have relevant security of supply and that the required generation capacity is there.

Are both EirGrid and the ESB happy enough?

Mr. Robert Deegan

The homes and the EVs are less of an issue. Any necessary amendments to the local areas will be carried through by ESB Networks.

With regard to the SEAI's role with renewables, the talk is about wind. We have a great resource and we are lucky. It is to be hoped that we can develop that, particularly the powerful offshore element of it and floating wind turbines. However, wind is not a dispatchable power. We do not always have it. At the times of the greatest energy needs on this island, and there were a number of big freezes, the wind did not blow and there was no solar energy because it was dark. In one of those dark nights the temperature hit -16°C one night outside my house and it was -17°C in the midlands. What happens then? We have not cracked the nut of large-scale storage. How much effort is being put into biogas - I am aware that Bord na Móna is moving in that direction - along with biomass and hydro? I know hydro has limited capacity, but we have a lot of potential for combinations of small-scale hydro. Is there is a concern about the lack of dispatchable power when there is the greatest need?

Mr. Robert Deegan

This will all be considered as part of the forthcoming energy security of supply plan. That will be looking forward at ensuring the capacity is there in terms of generation and whether it is dispatchable-----

Is the Department flagging this to the Government?

Mr. Robert Deegan

Absolutely. This is a highest priority at present. There is a security of supply group-----

You and Ms O'Hora are flagging this.

Mr. Robert Deegan

It is already the highest priority in the Department.

Okay. I will return to retrofitting for a moment, and the warmer homes scheme and value for money. You outlined that 50% for the warmer homes scheme comes from the EU. This is the scheme for people who are on the fuel allowance. That has been expanded a little, which is welcome. There are many homes in the State that still have single glazing. In general, they are the poorest households. They are the least energy-efficient or have the highest inefficiency. They are still, perhaps, burning coal or solid fuel of some type. I know single glazing was part of the pilot scheme the Department ran - I forget the name of it but it was warmer home, better health or something like that - in part of Dublin. In the current warmer homes scheme, can one replace single glazed windows?

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

Yes. The warmer homes scheme started as a fuel poverty scheme and it has transitioned to an energy efficiency scheme, so we are getting deeper measures for homes and the average cost per home has increased. The surveyor goes in and looks at the package of measures required for the home. New windows and doors are available under that package of measures if the surveyor deems it necessary.

Under the previous scheme, and there was a leaflet on it, it was not listed on that. However, you are saying that if the surveyor says it must be done, it is done.

Dr. Ciaran Byrne

Yes, under the warmer homes scheme. That is true.

That is welcome. The issue is to try to get every house double glazed. Obviously, it is a good place to start.

I have another question and it relates to mass concrete housing. Your Department does not do the local authority retrofit scheme. A typical mass concrete house has 9 in. walls. There were tens of thousands of them built in the 1930s and 1940s. If they are privately owned the owner can get the 80% scheme or the 50% scheme, but the ones owned by the local authorities are the last being done. I see estates not too far from where I live that were built in the 1990s and they are being retrofitted. I saw the man in the van yesterday morning at one of them. We welcome the fact they are being done. When they were built, they were double glazed. It would not have been great quality double glazing because at that time it was skinny double glazing. They were not the most energy-efficient but they had a reasonable level of energy efficiency.

However, down the road, for example, at O'Moore Place in Portlaoise, the houses have 8 in. mass concrete walls and one would freeze in them. They are not being done. Demographically, they are low-income households, many of them with health problems, and there is no prospect of it soon. The local authorities are anxious to do it, and we have certainly been banging the drum to try to get them done. That type of house is replicated throughout the country. One sees those houses in Sligo and all over. The same design was used and in their day they were good houses. However, they would be very poor in terms of energy efficiency. Can anything be done? I understand the logic of picking the low-hanging fruit, but if houses that were built in the 2000s are being done but houses built in 1937 or 1938 are not being done, there is a huge discrepancy. What is being done to address that at Department level?

Mr. Robert Deegan

We are obviously in regular contact with our colleagues in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage who oversee the energy efficiency programme for local authority houses. This year, the budget for the scheme has been increased greatly to €85 million, which is a significant increase on what it was in previous years. They are gradually moving towards the deeper measures and the installation of heat pumps. There are particular issues, as you mention, with the concrete walls. As the low-hanging fruit have been picked off, they will have to move to the harder-to-treat houses. That will be partly enabled, also, by forthcoming guidelines that are being developed by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage regarding traditional buildings and the best treatments and approaches to retrofitting those.

We are dealing with houses that are not slabbed at the back or they have no wraparound outside and they have no cavity in the middle. They are being left until last because they are hard to do and more expensive.

Mr. Robert Deegan

Yes.

My point is that there is an urgent need here. It is more urgent now because solid fuel prices are rising. These households really have their backs to the wall. One can ask anybody in the Society of St. Vincent de Paul around the country. They have their backs to the wall because they have high energy usage. The heat is flying out through the walls and the windows and they need to be prioritised. The number of them is reducing. Work is being done on houses built in the 1980s and 1990s. In the 1980s, there was a level of insulation. In the 1990s, there was a slight improvement with the introduction of skinny double glazing, at least. There was gradual improvement and that is all welcome. Some of that is now being completely replaced. While people are on their second set of double glazed windows, these houses with no insulation whatsoever are freezing, which is the only way I can describe it.

Mr. Robert Deegan

I understand there was a very significant round of shallower measures brought in, such as attic insulation, lagging jackets and that type of intervention.

However, now they are moving to the deeper retrofits and there is a commitment to do 35,000 local authority houses by the end of the decade. They are absolutely a key priority. If they need to be separated into groups, we have also put new measures into the approved housing body homes as well. There are enhanced grant rates being-----

The approved housing bodies are all fairly new though.

Mr. Robert Deegan

Many of them are, but they are an important group to reach given the social impact and benefits that can be accrued from there, as well as the warmer homes scheme. In the round this year, there is €352 million in Government funding and 58% of that is going to either dedicated energy poverty schemes through the SEAI or the €85 million through local authorities, which, again, should be targeted to the lowest income households. We will certainly feed back the point about the mass concrete.

The only other point to make on it is that it is peppered at the moment. The majority could be private on some of those estates and on others the majority are still local authority-owned. Therefore, there needs to be some joined-up thinking in terms of where person in No. 30 is a local authority owned home and person in No. 31 is not. It is a mix and match. There needs to be a lot of consideration given to how that will work out in assisting the person living next door who would be on the same kind of an income basically.

Mr. Robert Deegan

Certainly.

Many of them are pensioners.

Mr. Robert Deegan

There has been some successful experience of that in the past, through community schemes. We were only in contact with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage colleagues in recent weeks about how we can ramp this up and use it as an approach for aggregation and standardisation of approaches, and then driving down costs and getting houses done as an area-based approach rather than picking them off one by one. It is very much in our agenda. The new schemes that have been introduced will also facilitate that type of approach as well.

That is good. I just wish that to be fed back and taken into consideration. I thank the witnesses.

Does Deputy Murphy have a question?

Just to pick up on the point that the Chair made, I asked if the amount allocated to local authorities was sufficient. The feedback that I am getting from local authority is that the amount that is being allocated for the retrofitting with local authority is approximately €10,000 short of what is required and it does not have the capacity to raise that from any other source.

Could somebody drop us a note on the number of charging points and if the local authorities will be the primary ones providing those? I am sure there will be some at petrol stations and so on, but we need to get some idea of what the scale is so we can follow it up with our individual local authorities as well. It certainly is way short.

While Deputy Murphy had to pop out to deal with something else, we asked that they come back with a table of local authorities that have applied for that grant and utilised it.

In addition, we need to know the scale of what is needed so that we can match one against the other and try to get the kind of ambition up to the level that it needs to be.

The last issue is the SEAI's new premises. It was said it was future-proofed in terms of staffing numbers. What staffing number can be accommodated there? Is working from home or a hybrid model of being factored into that? If the representatives cannot give us a reply to that, I am happy to take it in a note later on.

We should just perhaps ask them to come back with a note on that to the committee, because obviously they are in transition at the moment.

Mr. William Walsh

We will come back with a note.

I thank the witnesses from SEAI and the two principal officers from the Department for attending and preparing the information. I also thank the Comptroller and Auditor General and his staff for attending and assisting the committee today and, indeed, the secretariat as well.

Is it agreed to request the clerk to the committee to seek any follow-up information and carry out any agreed actions arising from the meeting? Agreed. Is it also agreed that we note and publish the opening statements and the briefings provided for us today? Agreed.

The committee will suspend now and meet again at 1.30 p.m. when we resume in public session to consider correspondence and any other business of the committee.

The witnesses withdrew.
Sitting suspended at 12.35 p.m. and resumed at 1.34 p.m.
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