COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 7 Apr 2022

Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe(Chairperson of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission) called and examined.

Chairman

I welcome everyone to the meeting. No apologies have been received. In order to limit the risk of spreading Covid-19, I ask that all those in attendance wear face coverings if not engaging with the committee. The service requests people to continue to wear face coverings when moving around the campus or when in close proximity to others and to be respectful of other people’s physical space. I ask people to adhere to any other public health advice.

Members of the committee attending remotely must continue to do so from within the precincts of the Parliament. This is due to the constitutional requirement that, in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House.

The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee.

This morning we will engage with officials from the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC, to examine its 2020 financial statements. The meeting will be suspended for an hour at 12.30 p.m. When we resume at 1.30 p.m., we will engage with the Policing Authority to examine the appropriation account for Vote 41 for 2020.

We are joined in the committee room this morning by the following officials from GSOC: Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe, chairperson; Mr. Hugh Hume, commissioner; Ms Emily Logan, commissioner, who has been here many times previously in a different role; and Ms Aileen Healy, director of administration.

When we begin to engage, I ask those who are attending remotely to put their microphones on mute when not contributing so that we do not pick up any background noise or feedback. As usual, I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off.

Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. As the witnesses are within the precincts of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty, as Cathaoirleach, to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Justice MacCabe is very welcome. As detailed in the letter of invitation, he will have five minutes for his opening statement. Lean ar aghaidh.

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

I understand the Comptroller and Auditor General may want to speak first.

Chairman

I apologise. I call the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

GSOC was established under the Garda Síochána Act 2005. As members are aware, the main functions of the commission are to investigate complaints concerning Garda conduct and incidents where it appears that Garda conduct may have resulted in death or serious harm to a person. The commission can also investigate matters relating to Garda conduct when it is in the public interest, even if a complaint has not been received.

The Commission is structured as a non-commercial State body. The commission prepares accruals-based annual financial statements. These are presented together with a governance statement and statement on internal control, as required under the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform code of practice for the governance of State bodies. The commission operates under the aegis of the Department for Justice and its income is derived from the justice Vote. The commission’s income in 2020 was €11.3 million, while its expenditure was slightly higher at €11.4 million. Two thirds of the expenditure relates to staff costs and the commission had 127 employees at the end of 2020.

The bulk of the other expenditure comprises almost €1.7 million related to rent, upkeep and overheads of premises, and €1.4 million in general expenses, much of which relates to information technology costs. I am glad to report that I issued a clear audit opinion on the 2020 financial statements.

Chairman

I thank Mr. McCarthy. I now ask Mr. Justice MacCabe to make his opening statement.

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee. This is the first occasion that GSOC has had the opportunity to address this committee. I am accompanied by Hugh Hume and Emily Logan, commissioners., and Ms Aileen Healy, GSOC’s director of administration. There are additional members of the staff of GSOC also in attendance as observers. Commissioner Hume has a background in policing at a senior level in the Police Service of Norther Ireland, PSNI, and also served as deputy chief inspector in the Garda Inspectorate. Commissioner Logan was Ireland’s first Ombudsman for Children and also served as the first Chief Commissioner of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission.

GSOC was established under the 2005 Act and commenced operations in 2007 to provide independent oversight of policing in Ireland. It is a vital interface between the people and An Garda Síochána. Our work is challenging and results depend on the skill and dedication of our staff, each of whom carries a heavy caseload.

GSOC operates seven days a week and 24 hours a day. We deal with complaints from the public concerning the conduct of members of An Garda Síochána, whether criminal or disciplinary. We conduct investigations into matters referred to us by An Garda Síochána, the Minister for Justice and the Policing Authority, as well as into matters we judge to be in the public interest to investigate. We make recommendations arising from the results of our investigations. We do not conduct prosecutions, which are a matter for the Director of Public Prosecutions, nor do we or impose or enforce disciplinary sanctions, which are for An Garda Síochána, following the recommendations we make.

GSOC’s budget allocation for 2021 was €11.272 million. This paid the salaries and covered the normal day-to-day running costs of the organisation. We have a staff of 135 at present. Our headquarters are in Dublin and we have offices in Cork and Longford. In the course of the year, GSOC sought and received an additional allocation of €300,000 to cover unanticipated additional costs relating to a number of particularly complex investigations that require intensive and extensive resources.

There has been a notable increase in the volume and complexity of our cases year on year. In 2021, there was a 12 % increase in complaints received and a 40% increase in statutory referrals from An Garda Síochána where death or serious injury occurred. It is to the credit of the staff that last year saw a 21% increase in the number of cases that were closed, even in the face of the pandemic, the increase in complaints and referrals, and the loss of some key personnel.

By their very nature, some investigations are straightforward and others are not. Some can be dealt with quickly and others require a commitment in terms of staff, resources and time that we know can be frustrating for all concerned. This is understandable from the point of view of complainants, who are anxious as to the outcome, and members of An Garda Síochána whose careers can be, in effect, on the line.

GSOC is bound by the principle of due process and human rights legislation. These apply to complainants and those we investigate so we cannot and should not prioritise speed at the expense of rigour in completing our investigations.

Some of the challenges we face arise from the mandate under which we operate. This is likely to change by dint of the broad reforms proposed in the Policing, Security and Community Safety Bill. Another related challenge is resourcing. When I came to this job in January, I took the opportunity to be briefed on staffing, resources and on the details of all cases so that I could be sure that cases were being given proper priority. We have engaged with our teams in Dublin, Longford and Cork. As a commission, we took the opportunity to visit our teams on the ground in Longford and Cork. It was apparent that our staffing complement, particularly our complement of investigative staff, falls well short of what is required. High caseloads and staff turnover, including loss of experienced staff due to retirement or normal civil service mobility, have made this worse.

We secured additional funding in 2022 and this will allow us to recruit some additional staff. I sought immediate approval to recruit 22 additional staff and this was granted by the Department of Justice without hesitation. Recruitment is, however, not a fast process, particularly with such a range of regulatory organisations fishing in the same pool as we do. All our staff require special skills to investigate and analyse complaints of negligence or wrongdoing.

The Policing, Security and Community Safety Bill proposes sweeping changes in the law and will change the composition and mandate of GSOC. The commission will have additional powers and functions, which will, by definition, involve more work and more staff if that work is to be carried out properly. It is my belief that the Department and the Minister are alert to the ongoing resource issues faced by GSOC and will support us. We welcome this draft legislation. It fills a clearly defined and long-signalled gap in Ireland’s policing accountability.

My responsibility, working with my commission colleagues and staff, is to oversee the work of GSOC and the transition to whatever new organisational structure is mandated by the committee members and their Oireachtas colleagues. I hope that when they do this, they will be mindful that nothing as complex as investigating wrongdoing in the modern world we inhabit comes cheap. I hope the committee also recognises the service the staff give and the importance of the work they do.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Justice MacCabe. The lead speaker for the committee is Deputy Munster, who has 15 minutes. Everyone else will have ten minutes.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I wish everybody a good morning. How many complaint investigators are serving gardaí? How many are retired gardaí? How many are non-Garda members of the commission's staff? Has Mr. Justice MacCabe a breakdown of that?

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

None of our investigators are serving gardaí. I know that seven are retired gardaí and another retired member will join next week.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Are the rest of the investigators staff members of the commission?

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

The rest are ordinary, recruited civil servants. All the staff of GSOC are civil servants who have been recruited by a public competition through the Public Appointments Service.

Deputy Imelda Munster

The number of complaints to GSOC has risen by more than 25% since 2019. What was the number of complaints in the first quarter of 2020? What change would the witnesses estimate that represents year on year?

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

The Deputy will understand that my mandate arose in January. My two fellow commissioners have been in office much longer and have much more experience.

Deputy Imelda Munster

That is fine.

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

If it is okay, I will be asking them to come in from time to time.

Deputy Imelda Munster

That is fine.

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

I hope they will be in a position to give the committee more accurate figures than I am at this stage.

Mr. Hugh Hume

Will the Deputy repeat the first part of her question?

Deputy Imelda Munster

The number of complaints to GSOC has risen by more than 25% since 2019. What was the number of complaints in the first quarter of 2020? What change does that represent year on year?

Mr. Hugh Hume

I am not sure I can answer the Deputy's question by quarter. At the end of the last year, complaints had risen by an additional 12%. Some 2,189 complaints were received by the end of 2021. That is a continuous increase, year on year, of approximately 12%.

Deputy Imelda Munster

That 12% increase is continuing, year on year.

Mr. Hugh Hume

It is in and around that figure, yes.

Deputy Imelda Munster

How is that increase represented in the context of inadmissible, unsupervised and supervised cases? Would the increase be weighted in any regard?

Mr. Hugh Hume

It is fairly standard across the spectrum of complaints. In 2021, there were 2,189 complaints, of which 858 were deemed inadmissible, with 1,332 admitted into the organisation.

I think the committee previously had some correspondence from Ms Justice Ring that referred to a figure of around 40% for unsupervised complaints in previous years. That figure would be roughly similar for this year. In the year 2021, 523 complaints were dealt with as unsupervised investigations. Those represented about 40% of the total number of complaints.

Deputy Imelda Munster

About 40% are unsupervised.

Mr. Hugh Hume

Yes.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Is that each year?

Mr. Hugh Hume

I do not have the figure per year in front of me. We can produce those figures for the Deputy if she so wishes.

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

Yes. We could certainly collate those figures and give them to the Deputy at a later stage.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Thank you.

How do unsupervised complaints from members of the public work? I ask from the point of view of a member of the public's concern. Maybe there is no need for concern, but I am just asking the question. Is it the case that gardaí are given a complaint and go off and investigate it but they are unsupervised by anybody? Is it they who look into the cases individually and make decisions? Is that how it works?

Mr. Hugh Hume

I will take the Deputy through the whole process and explain it. When those 1,332 complaints are admitted, we make a number of determinations as to what happens with each complaint. The first thing we do is look for criminality. GSOC retains any allegation of a criminal nature. Such allegations are never passed on to the Garda Síochána to investigate. There were about 557 such allegations last year. We retain and investigate those through to their completion.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Okay, but what about internal disciplinary matters?

Mr. Hugh Hume

There are three levels to that: unsupervised, supervised, and investigated by GSOC for discipline.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Can Mr. Hume tell me how the unsupervised one works?

Mr. Hugh Hume

We make a determination that it is appropriate for the matter to be dealt with as an unsupervised investigation. That is a lower level complaint, perhaps failure to investigate a road traffic collision with no aggravating factors. We send that to the Garda Commissioner to appoint a Garda senior investigating officer, SIO. The Garda SIO is required to conclude his or her investigation within 16 to 20 weeks. SIOs are at superintendent level and are required to conduct investigations of matters that have been presented to them and to make determinations. They report back to GSOC on their findings, and the complainant then has an option to have that determination or the investigation reviewed by us. The Garda superintendent will then make a decision as to what sort of discipline, if any, is required.

Deputy Imelda Munster

If the complainant is not satisfied with the initial determination, it can go back to GSOC.

Mr. Hugh Hume

The complainant can seek a review from us. We are limited by legislation in how much we can deliver in that regard, but the complainant can return to us. We have considerably more control over the supervised investigations, which are also led by the Garda.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Does Mr. Hume agree with, understand or even appreciate descriptions in the media of GSOC's investigators' relationship with the Garda? It is deemed they are frustrated with the alleged lack of co-operation from officers. There were references to delays in handing over documents and making witnesses available. Does Mr. Hume accept there is merit to that?

Mr. Hugh Hume

What we certainly accept is that the new legislation is a significant step forward in giving us responsibility-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

I will come to that in a minute but, as it stands, I am saying-----

Mr. Hugh Hume

The discipline process is a very challenging one to work through. Seeking the documents and getting all the information can take time. It is not best suited in terms of our having the Garda investigate in respect of the needs of the victim, the complainant in this case. We would certainly seek a far more timely and effective way of dealing with these complaints.

Deputy Imelda Munster

What is the longest GSOC investigation ongoing?

Mr. Hugh Hume

I cannot answer that question off the top of my head. I would have to get the Deputy the answer that later.

Deputy Imelda Munster

If you could come back to me on it, I would appreciate it.

Mr. Hugh Hume

Certainly.

Deputy Imelda Munster

What is the current total number of cases that have been impacted by the industrial dispute? What percentage of cases is that over the period involved?

Mr. Hugh Hume

The dispute began on or around 4 July 2021. At that point there were 285 unsupervised investigations. At the week ending 3 April 2022, there were 354 unsupervised investigations within the Garda Síochána and 73 supervised investigations. At this stage we are not in a position to say definitively what impact that has had in terms of a delay because the SIOs have 16 to 20 weeks to investigate. Forty Garda SIOs have written to say they were unable to progress cases due to the dispute. We can say definitively that 77 unsupervised investigations and four supervised investigations were affected. However, we do not know the impact of any delay because we were not contacted in every case by the Garda SIOs to understand the delays. It will not be until these cases work through the system that we will be able to identify that delay.

Deputy Imelda Munster

For my own benefit, can Mr. Hume confirm that the crux of the current industrial relations action relates to the Garda not receiving a review of a recommended increase in allowances for duties outside of their regular working hours?

Mr. Hugh Hume

We are not party to the-----

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

We are not party to that, really, and it would not be appropriate for us to comment on it one way or the other.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Do a lot of GSOC's investigations take place outside of regular working hours?

Mr. Hugh Hume

Our staff, as Mr. Justice MacCabe has said, work 24-7, so we do receive a number of call-outs and respond to critical or serious incidents outside hours, at weekends and throughout the night. I would not say that in any way the majority of those investigations are like that, but we do respond outside of hours to serious incidents and to calls for assistance from the public or referrals from the Garda Síochána.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Are a lot of GSOC's investigations that are handled by the Garda done through overtime?

Mr. Hugh Hume

We have no visibility as to how the Garda superintendents conduct these investigations.

I think my colleague, Commissioner Logan, has a comment to make.

Ms Emily Logan

I was just going to mention that protocols between the Garda Commissioner and GSOC are provided for in our current legislation. We did not and do not see ourselves as party to that dispute. In answer to the Deputy's question as to whether staff work on call, as a relatively new commissioner I would say the organisation is a very dynamic one. Our investigators do not sit beside a desk or at a desk where they do their work. They are a very active group of people. The legislative framework to which they operate is our Constitution and the European Convention on Human Rights. Regarding Commissioner Hume's comments on death, when there has been a fatality or serious harm, a group of our investigation teams go out and they are on call at any time, 24 hours a day. In fact, some of our teams have been called out on five occasions in the space of one week. They do everything from managing and preserving a scene and its forensic evidence to trying to support and interact with families who are distressed or traumatised. It is not only the investigatory nature of what we do that is important but the pieces around that too.

In response to the Deputy's original question about the public perception of GSOC, we are very sensitive to the current legislation and the perceived question as to who is carrying out investigations in the organisation. What I will say, as somebody who was an ombudsman for 12 years, is that the dynamic in GSOC is quite different. When we get to the final phase of an investigation, the commission actively participates in the direction an investigation takes.

We are not sitting in some ivory tower but have very close proximity to the investigation teams. We are regularly briefed in our supervision of what is going on. We also have policies which recognise, both for ourselves and for our investigation staff, that there may be an occasion when any of us might have a conflict of interest. We have policies to support our staff in making those decisions and we ourselves make decisions where it may not be appropriate, with reference to the Deputy's earlier question, for people who may have a policing background in this jurisdiction, to be involved in certain investigations. That is given very significant consideration. The Deputy's question about the public is something that is constantly on our minds.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I thank Commissioner Logan for that. Just where the Commissioner mentioned-----

Chairman

We are down to a half minute remaining, unfortunately, so the Deputy can have one quick further question.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I will finish up by saying that the Minister had described the new proposals as the most wide-ranging and coherent reform of policing in a generation. I was surprised that the Garda Commissioner had said that that the gardaí do not seem to be in favour of the new reforms and I believe "draconian" was the word he used. What is the commission’s feeling on that?

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

We have made our views known on the draft legislation and while we broadly support it we have stated our interest in particular matters and these, I am sure, are being considered. I do not believe that the proposed powers are draconian but that is a matter for an Garda Síochána, and I do not wish to comment further on that.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Just very quickly, Chairman, is the commission itself in favour of carrying out unannounced inspections?

Ms Emily Logan

It might be useful to clarify that the role of GSOC is not necessarily to carry out unannounced inspections. Our role is specifically around the response to the public, to the Minister, and to the Garda Commissioner on any referrals or notifications about serious harm or death, and to investigate those complaints and those referrals. We do not, in fact, carry out any inspections.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Would Commissioner Logan be concerned with the Commissioner’s reluctance to support the new measures?

Ms Emily Logan

It is useful to say that a process has begun. The commission has met with the Commissioner, his staff and his senior leaders within the organisation. We have agreed to set up a working group where we have three representatives from the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission and the Commissioner has, likewise, provided people on his side to interact with us to discuss how will we implement and practically apply the legislation as it is currently drafted.

Chairman

I thank Commissioner Logan and call Deputy Hourigan now, please, and she has a ten minute slot.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I thank the Chairman and our witnesses this morning, and Commissioner Logan also. There are many moving parts in some of the scrutiny of this and it can be difficult to understand the pathway that we are following here. I want to ask a little bit more about GSOC’s perspective on the proposed legislation but before I do I want to understand the numbers a little bit more in 2019, 2020, and 2021. We saw a large increase in the number of queries handled but I am trying to understand this from the numbers provided to us. The way that the information was delivered to us were those complaints that were determined to be admissible or inadmissible and criminal investigations opened. It is hard for me, however, to glean from that 2021 number of 4,615 how many of those have led to a complaint being upheld and actioned or a prosecution. Is that data available?

Mr. Hugh Hume

From the 2021 figure, it would be unlikely that many of the cases would have worked their way completely through the system because of the time it takes.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

My apologies as I do not mean to cut across Commissioner Hume but when he mentions the time that it takes, what time does it actually take?

Mr. Hugh Hume

When a complaint comes in - or would have come in in 2021 - if it is a criminal matter, the legislation requires of us that we will then conduct a full criminal investigation into the matter. If the commission, having reviewed the investigation, decides that it may amount to a crime, we will send it then to the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP, who may or may not decide to prosecute. If that office decides to return the case to us having decided not to prosecute, because it is the Director of Public Prosecutions who prosecutes not GSOC, then we may make a decision to go on to investigate that as a discipline matter. That is part of the convoluted legislation under which we currently operate. That can-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

What is the average time that would take?

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

It is not a calculation that we would have to hand but we can have that calculation made.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I suspect that our witnesses could probably provide a ballpark figure for me. Are we talking six months, 12 months, 18 months or perhaps 24 months?

Mr. Hugh Hume

Our most recent figures show that in 2021, the median time for closure of a complaint of criminal investigation was 311 days. An unsupervised discipline matter investigated by an Garda Síochána was 199 days.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

When Commissioner Hume says "days", does he mean working days?

Mr. Hugh Hume

Just days.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

That is important.

Mr. Hugh Hume

For a disciplinary investigation by an Garda Síochána which is supervised by us, it is 288 days, and for GSOC-led discipline investigations, it is 265 days.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I thank Commissioner Hume for those numbers, but within them, I still cannot tell how many complaints were upheld or resulted in a prosecution, as it refers to the ones that were actioned or, shall we say, closed.

Mr. Hugh Hume

They were the ones that were brought in and worked through the system, investigated and then closed. Some would have been discipline, some would been criminal and some would have been closed without sanction. The Deputy is quite correct in that.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Does that data exist somewhere? Would the Minister for Justice, for example, have that data?

Mr. Hugh Hume

We probably have it within our wider system and we could look to see if we could extract that for the Deputy.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

The point I am making is that for somebody like me coming from the outside and looking at a large increase from 2020 to 2021, I am trying to understand if that is something to do with the relationship of An Garda Síochána with the community or is there some sort of operational issue here? Without knowing how many complaints were actioned and then upheld, or resulted in a prosecution, it is very hard to glean what that information in fact means.

Ms Emily Logan

I would just say to the Deputy that we are trying very hard to improve our data. The Deputy will see in our annual report which has just been submitted that there are 60 cases that have been upheld in respect of discipline and we have seven cases where the DPP gave us a direction to prosecute, following a criminal investigation.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Out of how many cases and for what year do those figures relate?

Ms Emily Logan

My apologies, but I am trying to explain as I feel that we are not giving the Deputy a specific answer. We are trying very hard and the Deputy will see in our next annual report, that has just been submitted to the Minister and which is just about to be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas, more definitive statistics on the questions the Deputy is asking.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I would hope to glean from these figures when going through them if, for example, referrals to GSOC under section 102 of the Act were considered to have been upheld or actioned? They may been the investigations that were opened in the public interest and if we add in some of those numbers, we are still looking at very low levels of complaints being upheld. If one adds them up, it is less than 1% in some cases.

Ms Emily Logan

Perhaps it might be useful to place what we do in the context of the other eight ombudsman or regulatory institutions in this jurisdiction. Generally, what happens is that between 3% to 5% of all the complaints end up being investigated. What we are clearly not giving the Deputy, and what we are trying to improve-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

That a very interesting number. Let us take 2020 and use those numbers. Of the 3,908 complaints, about 5% of those would have been investigated fully.

Ms Emily Logan

Generally, a comparative figure would usually be somewhere between 3% to 5%.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

In the case of the rest of these, are they held to be inadmissible?

Ms Emily Logan

Some of them can be inadmissible.

Mr. Hugh Hume

I think my colleague is talking about ombudsmen in Ireland rather than GSOC specifically.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I take that point but I presume the witnesses are raising the point because they consider GSOC to be in line with that standard.

Ms Emily Logan

As a complaints body that is receiving complaints from the public it is generally understood that not every complaint will reach a threshold for a full investigation after examination by our casework team for a variety of reasons.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I have used up all my time on the data issue but the inclusion of that kind of information in the next report would be important, particularly in light of the fact that submissions have increased. I want to turn to the new powers that are proposed. I am particularly interested in moving away from the requirement for a specific complaint. I want to get the witnesses' perspective. Where there were concerns more generally and where there was not a specific complaint, does GSOC envisage that as a matter for a particular station or area? What would those powers mean for GSOC?

Ms Emily Logan

There are two things that stand out and that have been in the political domain. First is the pathway of the complaints and the legislation will simplify that. We have to make a decision when a complaint comes in on whether it is a civil or a criminal matter. Let us take, for instance, Mr. Hume's comments on a criminal matter. We undertake an investigation, we make a decision as a commission and it goes to the DPP. The DPP returns it to us, we have to wait for that decision about whether to prosecute and only then can we sequence a disciplinary investigation if it is required. The Deputy can see how extended that pathway and investigation are. The new legislation allows us to examine and make that decision at a different stage. It means that people on the receiving end of it, who are members of the Garda, are not in a situation where they are immediately under criminal investigation, which is significant. The second difference is in search warrants.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I want to get some clarity on that. When Ms Logan mentions a different stage does she mean an earlier stage when GSOC is doing some fact-finding?

Ms Emily Logan

At present, we have to do it at the beginning when the complaint comes in and that creates huge complexity because there is quite a difference in the threshold between a criminal investigation and a disciplinary one, as the Deputy will know. The new legislation simplifies that and allows GSOC to get into and conclude an investigation in a much more efficient way.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

When Ms Logan says that GSOC will make a decision can she outline what that looks like? How many people are in a room? Who is making that decision? What is the process within GSOC? I know GSOC goes to the DPP afterwards.

Ms Emily Logan

We have strict protocols and we work to constitutional safeguards-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

There is no need to describe them for me. I know the protocols.

Ms Emily Logan

Essentially, they are reports that are written by the investigators and then presented. Sometimes, depending on the complexity of it, the commission can be briefed but we get a written report on the investigations and the findings to see if those findings and the evidence reach a level of criminal prosecution.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

When Ms Logan refers to "we", is that one person-----

Ms Emily Logan

The commission.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

How many people does the commission comprise of in a room? Is it all three?

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

It is one, two or three people. It depends on the complexity of the case and we give a reasoned decision.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Under these new powers, if they were being taken to investigate an area where GSOC considered that there was some concern, are the witnesses saying there could be three people in the room deciding to take that action; not just one?

Ms Emily Logan

Yes.

Deputy Colm Burke

I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee and for the work they are doing for all the people working in their organisation. I refer to the details on queries handled. One of the issues I noticed is that in 2019, some 290 people came into the public office. In 2020 it was 51 and in 2021 it was down to 11. Is there any particular explanation for that sudden-----

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

The simple answer to that is it was Covid. A lot of the staff were not on site during that time, certainly not during the early stages of Covid, and it is only recently that we are getting back to the situation of having people in the building full-time. That is also a fast-moving operation.

Deputy Colm Burke

If it is down to a figure of 11 meetings in the public office in 2021, then surely investigations were delayed as a result.

Mr. Hugh Hume

It is fair to say-----

Deputy Colm Burke

That is a huge drop from 290 in 2019 down to 11 in 2021. Was Covid used as the excuse for not meeting?

Mr. Hugh Hume

I refute that. A lot of the engagement moved online and our telephone service was always available for people to make contact with staff, case workers and investigators and some engagement occurred off site. I would not say we used it as an excuse. It was a practical outworking of the pandemic that meant we had to limit our engagement within those roles far more.

Deputy Colm Burke

I am confused. Is Mr. Hume saying that 290 people met in the public office in 2019? Does that mean those people were still communicated with in 2021, even though they might not have been met in the public office?

Mr. Hugh Hume

Yes.

Deputy Colm Burke

The figures are getting confusing and the way they are presented sends up alarm bells. Is that a true and accurate presentation of affairs?

Mr. Hugh Hume

I am not sure of the presentation the Deputy has in front of him is but I assure him that engagement has moved from the public office, which is solely in Dublin and where members of the public can come in and make a complaint, and has gone to the vast majority of our complaints coming in online. Throughout the pandemic our telephone service was maintained and members of the public could contact the telephone service and engage. Staff spoke to those people and continued with the service.

Deputy Colm Burke

I refer to complaints that GSOC is investigating. Is there any litigation pending where applications have been made to restrict GSOC from carrying out an investigation?

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

I ask the Deputy to repeat the question.

Deputy Colm Burke

An investigation can be started but is there any litigation pending where someone has made an effort to restrict GSOC from carrying out an investigation?

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

Could the Deputy put a context on that?

Deputy Colm Burke

It could be indicated to a person that an investigation was going to be started. Has there been a scenario where someone has gone to the courts looking for GSOC to be restrained from carrying out a further investigation?

Ms Emily Logan

As an organ of the State, any member of An Garda Síochána can make an application for a judicial review into any action GSOC is taking. We would expect that in the same way that-----

Deputy Colm Burke

But are there current applications pending?

Ms Emily Logan

There are.

Deputy Colm Burke

Can the witnesses give me the number of those currently pending?

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

I can give the Deputy the number but I do not have it to hand today. It is a small number. I can communicate with the Deputy but I do not have the figures to hand.

Deputy Colm Burke

But there are a number of cases pending.

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

Indicating possible cases.

Deputy Colm Burke

Have a number of cases been determined where orders were made which prevented GSOC from carrying out investigations?

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

No. Not to my knowledge.

Deputy Colm Burke

GSOC might give us a briefing note on that issue.

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

I would be happy to do that.

Deputy Colm Burke

The issue of judicial review is used and people have that right, which I accept. However, it would be interesting for the committee to know what the level of those applications is.

I will move to a letter we got in December 2021, which related to difficulties because of industrial relations disputes among senior gardaí. What investigations were impacted as a result of those industrial relations issues during 2019, 2020 or 2021?

Mr. Hugh Hume

The industrial relations issue only arose from 4 July 2021 and that is when we became aware of the issue. That is an internal matter within An Garda Síochána relating to superintendents' pay, which as we mentioned, we are not at liberty to discuss.

We were informed that a number of the discipline investigations were unsupervised and were not being progressed as a result of that issue. These are only unsupervised investigations. No criminal investigations were passed to Garda investigations. This issue was dealt with solely within GSOC. At that time there were 285 unsupervised investigations and 109 supervised disciplinary investigations in the Garda Síochána. A total of 40 Garda superintendents contacted us to say they were unable to progress cases due to the dispute. We know of 77 unsupervised cases and four supervised cases that were delayed. We do not have the full picture because not everyone contacted us. We are now working our way through that system.

Deputy Colm Burke

That issue is now resolved and no further delay is occurring at this stage.

Mr. Hugh Hume

We understand the Commissioner has put additional measures in place to expedite or deal with some of the backlog. There will be some lag as a result of the delay.

Deputy Colm Burke

What is the effect where there is a delay such as this?

Mr. Hugh Hume

The effect for GSOC is that we had to contact all of our complainants involved in our unsupervised cases and tell them this was happening. We had to place a notice on our webpage. It will have an effect on the reputation of GSOC. It will undermine the confidence of the complainants who are potentially being told their investigations have been delayed. We cannot tell at this stage what the actual outworking is of the delay in investigations. I will not know until later in the year whether there has been a significant delay in the totality.

Deputy Colm Burke

We could be talking about a delay of between six and nine months in some investigations.

Mr. Hugh Hume

We are certainly talking about a delay. Simply because we were not told by the superintendents in all cases, we do not know.

Deputy Colm Burke

After an investigation has started are there delays in getting information from the Garda Síochána? Could a better system be in place to ensure GSOC gets information in a timely manner? For argument's sake, simple issues can arise such as someone being out on sick leave or someone being seconded to a different location or role. Does this affect GSOC getting information when it has an investigation under way?

Mr. Hugh Hume

There is an effective mechanism for gathering information when we are involved in leading investigations. We write to the Garda Commissioner's office and the assistant commissioner with responsibility for governance. They gather all of the information that is held in the Garda Síochána and present it back to us. By and large it works well and it is relatively expeditious. However if the member is somebody we cannot engage with or contact because of sick leave or being unavailable it will inevitably lead to delays. There is a strong-----

Deputy Colm Burke

I understand there was a review in April 2021. What were the results of that review?

Mr. Hugh Hume

I am sorry Deputy, I am not aware of that. I will ask my colleagues-----

Deputy Colm Burke

I understand a high-level overview was carried out in April 2021 to see whether information could come back at a faster pace. Has anything come out of this overview?

Mr. Hugh Hume

I am sorry Deputy, I am not aware of the review.

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

What I can say is that in our submission to the justice committee on the general scheme of the policing Bill, we indicated we believe that if constraints are going to be imposed in the Bill on the timeliness of the investigations carried out by GSOC, a similar requirement should be imposed on the people we deal with and State agents should also have timeliness as part of their obligation to co-operate with GSOC.

Deputy Colm Burke

Does Mr. Justice MacCabe think a better system could be in place to ensure GSOC's work is done in a timely manner? Obviously it is very dependent on others providing the information-----

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

Yes.

Deputy Colm Burke

-----or responding to the queries or complaints raised.

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

Certainly if the legislation mandated the same requirement of timeliness on the organisations we deal with, it would assist us. We have no means of compelling co-operation.

Deputy Colm Burke

Does Mr. Justice MacCabe think that should be part of the legislation?

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

It should be and certainly that is in the submission on the Bill we made to the justice committee.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I welcome the witnesses. My question is on staffing. In 2019, GSOC had 125 members of staff. This has increased to 127. GSOC will have new powers. After a debate in the Dáil on GSOC, we received a letter from the then chair outlining some issues with capacity and staffing. Do the witnesses anticipate there will be significant additional resources to deal with the new powers? Is this in the planning at this stage? What kind of numbers are we speaking about?

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

I will invite the director of administration to address the Deputy on this and we can come back in afterwards if needs be.

Ms Aileen Healy

We do anticipate this. At present, we are planning resources and the organisational structure we will need to be fit for purpose to implement the provisions of the new legislation. To be quite honest, it is quite difficult at this point in time to put a number on the staff we need. We are in a process. In the coming weeks, we will do a detailed business analysis with the assistance of some external expertise.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Even before new powers were added, we were being alerted to the capacity of GSOC. Has analysis been done on existing powers? How does it relate to the additional workload?

Ms Aileen Healy

We got an additional allocation in the 2022 Estimates to allow us to recruit the 22 investigators we reckon we need with our current workload. Given the uncertainties about the Bill and what exactly the powers will be, we do not yet know. In the coming weeks and months, we will undertake this analysis with a view to feeding it into the 2023 Estimates.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Are we likely to see this? Will it go to the Minister? Is it something we will see in the budget?

Ms Aileen Healy

It is planned that it will go to the Minister in advance of the Estimates process later this year and that we will see it in the budget process.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I have been a member of the committee for some time. We have seen inadequate planning for additional powers or mergers followed by shortcomings in terms of the outworking. It is very important that the-----

Ms Emily Logan

I assure Deputy Murphy that we are not passive on this. We are aware of it. The timeline the Minister has mentioned publicly is somewhere in 2023. We set up an internal project group in July last year. One of the big things is the change to the governance model, which is relevant to the committee. We started our work last July.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I ask for a short note on this. We are limited with time and I would like some assurance on it. We have a definition of value for money that encompasses quality of service as well as everything else. The Comptroller and Auditor General helped us to define it.

Ms Emily Logan

Of course.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I have a question on the details of the number of queries handled.

When GSOC opens a case and investigates, have its decisions always been accepted by the Garda Síochána or has any recommendation or finding been revoked by the Garda Commissioner? What is the relationship? Is a decision generally accepted?

Mr. Hugh Hume

We cannot make a determination in respect of discipline. All we can do is send a recommendation to the Garda Commissioner. To the best of my knowledge, all of the recommendations in terms of discipline we have sent across in the past year have been accepted by the Garda Commissioner and passed to a superintendent for examination.

Ms Emily Logan

We are allowed to make what are called systemic recommendations under section 106 of the Act, which relates to practice, policy or procedure. Where we do not find evidence but there is something that causes us concern, we will make a recommendation to the Garda Commissioner that affects that.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The referrals under section 102 probably have the highest profile. There were 59 such referrals in 2021. This question has been asked before, but what is the standard timeline for dealing with such complaints? Someone might be on suspension, for instance. A case that stands out for me and on which we get queries from time to time is that of George Nkencho. People ask us what the timeline is. This is the type of case that is in the public domain. How does GSOC deal with these cases? What is the standard timeline for recommendations under section 102?

Mr. Hugh Hume

Obviously, we cannot speak about specific cases.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes.

Mr. Hugh Hume

I know the Deputy is not seeking to do that. The time is determined by the circumstances we find. In many cases, we deal with issues very quickly. When the Garda Commissioner informs us, through a superintendent, that there has been death or serious harm and he believes a garda's conduct is likely to have been a factor, the Act requires that we "shall" ensure those cases are investigated. In all 59 cases, there was an investigation.

The first thing we do, in what is called a section 91 investigation, is to examine the circumstances of the case. We may get a referral from the Garda stating someone had died or been injured as a result of actions by gardaí. We may quickly find there is no criminal or disciplinary issue and we can resolve the situation within a matter of days. In one case outlined in our report, gardaí interacted with a man who was intoxicated. They decided to keep an eye on him. He went around a corner. They followed and found he had fallen and hurt himself badly. The case was referred to us. We were quickly able to establish there was no fault on the part of the gardaí – in fact, they had probably saved his life – and we were able to close that case down quickly. Such cases are at one end of the spectrum, but there is a full range and, unfortunately, some take a long time because of their gravity and the criminal allegations involved. I cannot give the Deputy a median time. Some are dealt with very quickly but, unfortunately, others take a long time.

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

If I might add a sentence to that, I assure the committee there is no institutional interest whatsoever in having an investigation file on our desks for one second longer than a proper investigation takes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What was the longest investigation? Do the witnesses have that information?

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

Technically, a section 102 investigation is the longest.

Mr. Hugh Hume

I could not give the Deputy a figure off the top of my head.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Could we get a note on what has been the longest investigation? We want to see whether this system is working efficiently and if there are sufficient resources to do the job. With the additional powers, GSOC will be able to take on a larger caseload. In the absence of such powers now, GSOC is restricted. When does GSOC anticipate those powers and resources will be in place? Is there a timeline for that? Is GSOC engaging with-----

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

If the legislation came into effect in the timeframe envisaged by the Minister, we would like to think we would be in a position to transition to the new body straight away and deal with the additional responsibilities. By statute, we will be required to deal with them in any event.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Does GSOC have a rough estimate of the timeframe it envisages?

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

We are told that it could be the middle of next year.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Okay.

Deputy Matt Carthy

I thank our guests for attending. We have a remit over value for money and ensuring adequate expenditure of the public moneys allocated to our guests' organisation. It goes beyond general checks and balances and, as Deputy Murphy alluded to, involves a consideration of the length of time investigations take and the results that follow on from them. We cannot do that without reflecting on some of GSOC's previous investigations. The investigation I am a little familiar with is the one that occurred subsequent to the death of Shane O'Farrell. If I understand it correctly, there were two different investigations. What was the distinction between how they operated?

Mr. Hugh Hume

I am not exactly sure, but my understanding is that a number of allegations were made at the start and they were being dealt with slightly differently. At that point, GSOC brought them all under one umbrella and conducted a criminal investigation in respect of 56 separate allegations that had been made. Those 56 allegations were investigated and a determination was made that there was no case of criminality. There was then a disciplinary investigation, to which my colleague, Ms Logan, has alluded. That is a process we currently have to go through where we have to reset and start looking at the case again with a view to potential disciplinary matters. That disciplinary investigation examined 13 separate allegations and a recommendation was sent to the Garda Commissioner, who I believe took some action on the matter.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Was the section 101 report on the criminal investigation?

Mr. Hugh Hume

Such an investigation ends in what is called a section 101 report, which is a report that comes to the commission following a criminal investigation.

Deputy Matt Carthy

And the disciplinary investigation is reported on under section 97.

Mr. Hugh Hume

Correct.

Deputy Matt Carthy

What instigated those investigations? Was it the complaints by the family or a direction by the Minister?

Mr. Hugh Hume

It was a combination of all of those factors. There was information from the Minister and the family had come to GSOC as well. It is quite a while back and I was not in the office at the time, but my understanding is those all came from a number of different sources and GSOC brought them together into one cohesive investigation, which included the 56 allegations.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Let me put it a different way. If the family alone had provided information, would that have been sufficient for GSOC to conduct the investigation?

Mr. Hugh Hume

An investigation had started on the basis of what the family had provided.

Deputy Matt Carthy

In terms of the criminal and disciplinary strands, who conducted the investigations?

Mr. Hugh Hume

A senior investigating officer in Longford conducted the investigations.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Was that a Garda officer or a GSOC officer?

Mr. Hugh Hume

I beg the Deputy's pardon. It was a GSOC officer.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Was that the case for both investigations?

Mr. Hugh Hume

Yes. After they were completed-----

Deputy Matt Carthy

Was it the same individual who carried out both investigations?

Mr. Hugh Hume

It was the same team.

Deputy Matt Carthy

It was an internal GSOC team. The first report, the section 101 report, came six years after the original investigation started. Does Mr. Hume consider that to be an acceptable timeframe?

Mr. Hugh Hume

It is certainly a very long timeframe. There is no doubt about that. I was not there at the time, to understand all the nuances. While I have read the background material in anticipation of the Deputy's question and examined the file, there were 56 separate allegations. It all had to be dealt with criminally across a broad spectrum of activity that preceded the unfortunate terrible accident, and succeeded the incident as well, as the Deputy will be perhaps aware. It was a broad nature.

Deputy Matt Carthy

In terms of going forward, does Mr. Hume consider six years for an investigation of that type to be an acceptable length of time?

Mr. Hugh Hume

I could not comment on all the nuances and the stymies or the opportunities that occurred during that time.

Ms Emily Logan

I want to say, in terms of being fair and giving the Deputy an answer on the standard, but separate to the individual case that the Deputy is speaking about, the answer to the question as to whether six years is acceptable is "No". Mr. Hume is talking specifically. I am not talking about that case. I am just talking about a general standard for this commission. We would not consider that acceptable.

Deputy Matt Carthy

In terms of the disciplinary aspect of the case, that was even longer again because it was subsequent to the completion of the criminal aspect of the commission's investigation.

Mr. Hugh Hume

It followed on in a relatively short period of time. I have not got the exact time. Within a few months, it followed on from GSOC, I believe, to the Garda Commissioner.

Deputy Matt Carthy

As Mr. Hume mentioned, GSOC recommended disciplinary action in respect of three gardaí following that investigation.

Mr. Hugh Hume

That is correct.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Is Mr. Hume aware that in respect of two of those the disciplinary procedures or penalties that were applied were subsequently withdrawn by the Garda Commissioner?

Mr. Hugh Hume

I am aware there was some sort of court action and the outworkings of that was the setting aside of those proceedings.

Deputy Matt Carthy

After all of that time in terms of the amount of work that GSOC has put in, is Mr. Hume satisfied that there was an appropriate outcome at the end of all GSOC's efforts and the expenditure that was invested in this case?

Mr. Hugh Hume

It is not what GSOC feels about the thing. There are far more important people's concerns in this investigation than GSOC's concerns, in terms of the family themselves and their feeling of hurt. Clearly, we work to try to deliver the best and fairest result for everyone.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Mr. Hume is correct, in terms of the family being an important aspect. Given that they instigated essentially the investigation, why has the family not received the full copies of the reports that were published in this case?

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

As the Deputy will be aware, there is a subsequent inquiry going on that is in the hands of retired Judge Haughton. That is effectively a further hurdle that has appeared on this particular long road. The Deputy would have to address his query to Judge Haughton and his inquiry in that regard.

Deputy Matt Carthy

I have to say I do not buy that. GSOC carried out the investigations. GSOC concluded two reports. In respect of the section 101 report, the family have received summaries, not the full report. My understanding is that the same is the case for the section 97 report. These are reports in GSOC's possession. Whatever Judge Haughton is doing in relation to his scoping inquiry, he needs to be let do that but that does not prevent GSOC from providing those reports to the family. In fact, the Garda Commissioner is on the record as saying that these reports have been compiled by GSOC and that publication relates to Mr. Justice MacCabe's organisation alone. My question is, will GSOC provide those reports to the family considering they are the instigators? As Mr. Hume correctly said, they are the most important part of this procedure.

Following this case, I am aware of some of the details and most of the revelations about the fact that the person who killed Shane should have been imprisoned at the time, had been in breach of multiple bail conditions, and had received a custodial sentence that was never pursued and that he never served. While he was supposed to be signing on at a Garda station on a daily basis for a period of that time, he was in custody north of the Border. It is a litany of failures. The real answers and the causation of all of those failures have never been revealed. GSOC, the organisation that one would have hoped would have been part of finding those answers, instead was subjugated to a significant delay during which time every other actor in this process refused to answer questions. The then Minister for Justice and Equality, the then Department of Justice and Equality, the Garda, the DPP and the Courts Service - everybody who was responsible for failures in this case - stated for almost eight years that they could not answer questions because GSOC was carrying out an investigation. Now GSOC is coming in here and stating that it cannot provide information because there is a scoping inquiry taking place. My question is, when the scoping inquiry is concluded what will be the excuse for refusing to provide this family with answers as to why their son was killed by a man who should have been imprisoned at the time?

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

All I can tell the Deputy is that Judge Haughton made 114 requests for information from GSOC. GSOC, in October last, responded to these. Our legal unit is liaising with Judge Haughton at present. I would like to be able to give the Deputy a more positive response than that.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Is there a preclusion on GSOC providing information to any other third party that has been provided to Judge Haughton? Is it the case that the scoping inquiry has said that once GSOC provides it with that information, it cannot then provide it to another person?

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

I cannot answer that for certain. We are respecting the work that is being carried out by Judge Haughton. That is the only thing I can say to the Deputy at this stage.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Can Mr. Justice MacCabe not assure us today that GSOC will provide those reports to the family of the late Shane O'Farrell?

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

I cannot give the Deputy that assurance as of now.

Chairman

Mr. Justice MacCabe may be on the spot a bit in this regard. Perhaps he would come back to the committee with a piece of correspondence around whether that can or cannot be, and if it cannot be, why it cannot be at this stage.

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

Certainly.

Chairman

That would be helpful

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

I will certainly give that undertaking.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Justice MacCabe. I call Deputy McAuliffe.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I have the responsibility of attending two committees at the same time and I always wonder how I am meant to do that. If I missed GSOC's answer, I apologise.

I heard that 5% of overall complaints were fully investigated. GSOC might clarify that figure for me.

Ms Emily Logan

That is a figure that I gave which was a general rather than a GSOC figure. It was merely a general figure in this jurisdiction for complaints from members of the public to ombudsman institutions generally. It falls somewhere between 3% and 5%. We are not obliged to investigate everything-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Of course, and one will get all different quality of complaints.

Ms Emily Logan

-----but that is generally where it sits.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

What is that figure for GSOC?

Mr. Hugh Hume

Of the 2,189 complaints that we received last year, 858 or 39% were not admitted. A total of 1,332 were admitted and were subject to investigation. Some of those did not go far because complainants did not engage or we found early on that there was good reason, but approximately 60% of the complaints received last year were opened as investigations in GSOC.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

It is difficult for us to comment on specific cases, particularly ones that are active, and what we like to do is comment on patterns that we see. In general, the delay in GSOC's ability to investigate often has a compounding impact on people who perceive that they are victims. In some cases, it will be proved that they were victims. It is hard to say but sometimes people would say that the delay in GSOC is a harder hit than the original incident because they have already been let down by one section of the State and the body responsible for ensuring that that does not happen also lets them down by virtue of the length of the delay. Does GSOC appreciate the impact that has? Is this down to resources? Is this something that we should be going to Ministers about and saying that they need to be giving GSOC more resources?

Ms Emily Logan

There are two key reasons for it. We share the public's frustration. We are not sitting here defending the timeliness.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I suppose the question is, how do we fix it?

Ms Emily Logan

There are two ways of fixing it.

The first is the current legislation is over-complicated in terms of process. The draft new legislation will simplify the process and we have confidence it will make it more efficient. The second is resources. It is back to Deputy Catherine Murphy's question regarding capability of the staff. We are putting a great deal of investment into training, learning and development to create an organisation where people have the ability to do it.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

What is the figure that allows GSOC to have a reasonable response to complaints?

Ms Emily Logan

This year we have been given an additional 22 staff to put into our investigation team. The long-term figure depends on the complexity of the legislation or what the Oireachtas is going to ask us to do. However, we need more than we have now.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

The question is: can I crystallise the request?

Ms Emily Logan

I wish the Deputy could and I wish we could give him a definitive answer to that. At present, it very much-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I will put it differently. What resources would GSOC need to clear the backlog it has at present?

Mr. Hugh Hume

It is very difficult. We have a 12% increase on last year, so our complaints are rising all the time. The complexity and the introverted nature are changing so we are seeing more challenging criminal investigations-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I accept that. I hear Mr. Hume saying it is not acceptable; we all are saying it is not acceptable. It is the Government's job to try to resolve problems. As a Government Deputy, I am asking how we resolve the problem, how many more staff GSOC needs and what requests it has made to the Department. It is hard to accept the view that it is unacceptable to have these delays without seeing GSOC respond and say it needs X number of staff. I appreciate there are internal Civil Service politics and so forth, but it is very difficult to appreciate that GSOC wants to resolve this if it is not crystallising the request. Do the witnesses understand my frustration?

Ms Emily Logan

Totally.

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

We understand that, and it is not unreasonable to ask how many staff are required. It must be very frustrating not to get an answer, but I can give an example of the reality of the situation. We have a vacancy in a senior position in the organisation since last September. The recruitment process began as soon as that vacancy arose and it will not be possible to fill that until the end of next month. One is looking at a nine-month delay in recruiting one person. The regulatory business in Ireland in both the public sector and private sector has blossomed or exploded, as it were, over the past few years. When we are looking for investigative staff because those are the crucial people - they are not the only people, but they are the crucial people - we are looking for expertise in a very limited pool, and other people are fishing in this pool. To be perfectly honest, we cannot compete with the private sector.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I will put it another way because I am anxious to move to a different topic. When the witnesses are before the committee again and if there are similar delays, it will be harder to accept their response if they have not made a clear request to the Minister, the Department and the system. I will leave it at that.

I am anxious to talk about children, cases GSOC deals with that involve those under 18 years of age. I am anxious because any type of attack or assault on a child is utterly unacceptable in society, and for it to be perpetrated by a member of An Garda Síochána is particularly unacceptable. First, is there a specific policy or piece of work GSOC has done which includes assaults by members of the Garda on children? Second, are there different procedures for dealing with children in investigation cases? Third, I have heard some reports that children who are making a complaint are questioned with no advocate present. There is no member of their family or no solicitor, yet the person about whom the complaint is being made would obviously have somebody there. For a young person under 18 years of age, I would imagine that it is very intimidating to be alone in that situation and I would be surprised if that is a procedure GSOC has for a complainant. Perhaps it might be different for somebody who is the subject of abuse or in that area, but this is a complainant about an assault. This relates to children and I apologise that the witnesses have only three minutes to reply.

Ms Emily Logan

First, we have a dedicated team. At 7.30 every morning we get a list of all the complaints that have come in. We have a dedicated team monitoring every complaint that comes in so we immediately pick up any case that relates to anybody under 18 years of age. We investigate and we have special procedures for interviewing children. Only staff with a certain level of specialist skills can interview children. Our general policy is to interview children with an advocate. Most often in the complaints, children are either victims or are witnesses to a crime. Most often those complaints are made by their parents, and occasionally they are made by a third party. Occasionally we have children who are in the care system, and that is where things get a little more complicated. They may not be-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

For a child who is not in the care system and who is reporting an assault where the child's parent has made that assault, would it be normal to question the child without a family member present?

Ms Emily Logan

It would be normal to question the child with an adult-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Okay.

Ms Emily Logan

-----and an adult of the child's choosing.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

That is a choice the child has.

Ms Emily Logan

We interact with advocacy organisations-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Of course.

Ms Emily Logan

-----because there are complainants who may not have the wherewithal or confidence to interact with us. We are open to any type of advocacy.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

In those cases, probably all cases, are members of An Garda Síochána involved in the questioning of people who are reporting a crime or is it only the staff of GSOC who are involved in that questioning?

Ms Emily Logan

Internally, we have a cohort of staff who have that expertise. Recently, we have had more numbers where we have had to go to people who have Garda expertise. In that situation, our staff will sit in on the interview and supervise to ensure we are satisfied there is an independence of questioning of the child in that context. We still have primacy, as it is called, where we are the oversight body for that investigation.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Therefore, a child who has been assaulted by a garda may be in a situation where, as part of a GSOC investigation, he or she is being questioned in a room where there is a uniformed garda.

Ms Emily Logan

No, the garda would not be uniformed. We would have that conversation with the child. Just to be clear-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I am not clear why the body about which the complaint is being made is in any way involved in the questioning process.

Ms Emily Logan

I understand the Deputy's question. To be clear, in the context of a section 2 or section 3 assault when a young person has been assaulted, it is very important, and Mr. Justice MacCabe made the point earlier, that the rigour of our investigation will stand up in court. If we are going to do our job properly, the investigation must be rigorous. We must be able to withstand the questioning from a defence lawyer in a court, so anything that we do must have that rigour. If we have the internal capacity and our investigators have that level of expertise, that is our preference. On the occasion when it does not happen, yes, there are gardaí there. However, we, as an independent oversight body, will supervise that entire process.

Mr. Hugh Hume

These are not uniformed gardaí, but gardaí from specialist protective services who are trained explicitly in this.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

However, they are members of An Garda Síochána, not non-members.

Mr. Hugh Hume

Yes.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I know I have run out of time, but if there is specific work or research GSOC has done that it can share with members of the committee in respect of children and patterns of violence against children, I would appreciate it.

Ms Emily Logan

This is something we are specifically working on.

Chairman

We will take a break and resume at 11.10 a.m.

Sitting suspended at 10.58 a.m. and resumed at 11.10 a.m.

Chairman

Regarding case management and complaints, according to the figures supplied by GSOC, I see that 485 criminal investigations were opened in 2019, 572 were opened in 2020 and 557 were opened in 2021. A total of 658 disciplinary investigations were opened in 2019 while 752 were opened in 2021. GSOC corresponded with the committee last year and sent us figures for 2020 last July. If we look at the criminal investigations, we can see that 557 were opened. The total figure for criminal and disciplinary investigations is 1,309. This is heading for 10% of the workforce. If we remove senior management, who would be desk-bound, we are probably looking at a figure way in excess of one in ten of people working in the service. I presume those figures are accurate.

Mr. Hugh Hume

Yes.

Chairman

I do not expect Mr. Hume to be able to give the figures for last year but for 2019 and 2020, out of the criminal investigations opened, how many of the 485 investigations opened in 2019 went to trial? Are there any such figures for the 572 in 2020? When I saw the figure of 572 last July after GSOC sent us that letter, I was really taken aback. The figure flattened off last year at 557 but given the fact that 557 criminal investigations and 752 disciplinary investigations were opened in 2021, we can see 1,309 Garda officers are under criminal or disciplinary investigation. That took me by surprise. Regarding criminal investigations in 2019 and 2020, the figure for 2019 is 485 while the figure for 2020 is 572. How many involved prosecutions?

Mr. Hugh Hume

There was a ball park figure for 2021. Last year, 60 sanctions were imposed by the Garda Commissioner following complaints.

Chairman

Sixty?

Mr. Hugh Hume

There were 60 sanctions by the Garda Commissioner so those are findings of discipline.

Chairman

Was that on the discipline one or the criminal one?

Mr. Hugh Hume

That was on the discipline one. We sent 21 files to the DPP so on 21 occasions, the commission came to the view that the actions may have amounted to a criminal offence as alleged. I do not have the figure for those that translated into trials but on 21 occasions, we sent files to the DPP.

Chairman

This was under the disciplinary one.

Mr. Hugh Hume

The criminal one. There were 60 sanctions by the Garda Commissioner on the discipline one.

Chairman

Who determines when cases are criminal? Who makes that decision?

Mr. Hugh Hume

Our case workers. When a member of the public contacts GSOC, he or she invariably interacts with our case work team. There are 35 members of staff who deal with a broad range of demands and people suffering trauma and hardship who come to us for assistance. They are an excellent bunch. The commission met with them the other day. They are a very engaged and caring bunch. They received all these 2,189 complaints. Last year, they decided that 1,332 were active complaints. The first thing they look at is whether it is a crime. Is there evidence of a crime? Has a member of the public said a Garda hit him or her? Has he or said that a Garda has stolen money from him or her? Is there a crime in the allegation? They send that to our senior management team composed of our deputy director and director. They then look at that and if they agree, they designate it for criminal investigation. The first thing that is considered is whether it is a crime.

Chairman

The number of complaints opened increased by 12% from 2020 to 2021 while it was an 11% increase on the previous year so there has been a substantial increase. Regarding the allegations in complaints, from 2020 to 2021, that figure increased by 22%, according to GSOC's briefing information. The allegations in the complaints increased year on year between 2020 and 2021 by 22%.

Mr. Hugh Hume

H. Hume might pick the phone but he might say a Garda hit him with a baton and took his property so there could be three allegations from H. Hume regarding one incident.

Chairman

I raised it with the Garda Commissioner last week. I understand that there may be vexatious and false complaints. Obviously because gardaí deal with confrontations and public order, that can happen. Have there been investigations where the Garda Commissioner has rejected the outcome?

Mr. Hugh Hume

We are not aware of the Garda Commissioner not agreeing with our decisions in any of those 60 cases.

Chairman

It is generally accepted by An Garda Síochána. That is good. I do not expect the witnesses from GSOC to comment on the Garda dispute because it is outside their remit but in terms of its effect on the work of GSOC, on 20 March 2022, a total of 355 cases were referred to An Garda Síochána - this is from GSOC's briefing - under section 94(1), that is, unsupervised. There were 73 relating to section 94(5), that is, supervised. When the dispute commenced in July 2021, the figures stood at 285 and 109, respectively. A member asked about the effects of that dispute. If matters were held up from July 2021 until February 2022, that is a delay of seven months so there is a delay at the start of it. In terms of cases held up, if GSOC calculates the figures it has, adding 355 cases to the 73 that were referred to supervised investigations gives a total of 428. As of March 2022, the cases stand at 285. That indicates that 143 cases were held up due to that dispute.

Would that be correct, according to the figures Commissioner Hume has given us?

Mr. Hugh Hume

On 4 July we had, as the Chair said, those 285 and 109 allocated to the Garda superintendents. Where we sit now is, as the Chair said, is 354 and 73. That does not mean there has necessarily been a delay. That is additional cases that have come into the system since 4 July. However, that does not take include cases going out of the system.

Chairman

I take on board the point the Commissioner made. As matters roll on, year on year, if the number that is there now is reflective of the increase in numbers year on year and there have been seven months in between - there has been a seven-month delay - these 143 extra cases would be indicative of the net effect of the dispute. It is the only real indication we have, is it not?

Mr. Hugh Hume

The Chair is absolutely right. We have no way beyond that figure of measuring any delay, except for the fact that we know 40 Garda superintendents wrote us and told us they were affected. There were 81 cases in total, 77 of which were unsupervised-----

Chairman

That is a matter for the Garda. I refer to the pay in relation to investigation work it is doing on cases with GSOC.

The figures I have show that in December 2020 there were 32 investigating officers and eight assistant investigating officers. In other words, in December 2020 the Commissioner would have had 40 investigating officers or thereabouts, is that correct?

Mr. Hugh Hume

I believe so. The figures are slightly changed and updated now.

Chairman

The Commissioner mentioned that seven of the staff who do the investigations are retired gardaí.

Mr. Hugh Hume

Yes, at present.

Chairman

Just to better understand, I am trying to get a picture of the organisation of GSOC. Who would the other 33 be? What qualification-----

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

They would be investigators from police forces in other jurisdictions, such as South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Northern Ireland and the UK. We have people who were employed in the courts and people who came from the panel who basically had no investigation experience and had to be trained from the start in the Civil Service. I believe this is called "sit with Maggie", which means people are brought in for on-the-job training.

Chairman

"Swim by swimming," as the Mao Zedong quote goes. Anyway, they would not all be retired police or have a policing background.

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

Not at all.

Chairman

That is interesting.

Mr. Hugh Hume

We have a number from the Irish military as well.

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

Military police.

Mr. Hugh Hume

Yes.

Chairman

Okay. GSOC is very much dependent on the co-operation of the Garda. I do not want to go back into the case because the GSOC representatives went through it at length with Deputy Carthy, but because GSOC depends on that level of co-operation and assistance from An Garda Síochána, it would seem that it is possible in some cases for the hands of its staff to be tied. In other words, Commissioner Hume used the term on a number of occasions that something was “beyond our control”. Due to the fact that the people involved in a lot of this are one reach away, they could actually hold GSOC staff up and tie their hands if they were minded to do so. Is that fair to say?

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

I will answer that in a slightly convoluted way. Shortly after I came in, I had a one-to-one meeting with the Commissioner. I found him open and candid. In addition, the commission had a meeting with senior officers, including Deputy Commissioner Coxon. The sense I have is that there is an anxiety that there should be co-operation. There is a cultural change happening within An Garda Síochána that is being driven by the Commissioner and Deputy Commissioner Coxon. We have a shared interest in that. Certainly, Commissioner Harris indicated to me that he would welcome regular meetings on a one-to-one basis between the two of us, as well as regular contact. I would like to think that will clarify issues and perhaps deliver a message to An Garda Síochána that it is in everybody’s interests that there should be co-operation.

Chairman

I know Mr. Justice MacCabe has to be careful. I take it from what he has said about cultural change that until reasonably recently - perhaps two or three years ago - there were difficulties getting that level of co-operation. Most observers would concur with his suggestion that a cultural shift is happening. Perhaps up to the fairly recent past, there would have been many difficulties.

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

That would certainly be the popular view, and it would have been my view before I put this particular hat on.

Chairman

Finally, on the new legislation, Mr. Justice MacCabe said in his opening statement that some of the challenges faced by GSOC arise from the mandate under which it operates, but this is likely to change in the shape of the new broad reforms to be proposed in the policing, security and community safety Bill. It was outlined earlier that the Commissioner has described the new proposals as "draconian", but Mr. Justice MacCabe disagrees with that. Would he say that all of the powers proposed in the new Bill are necessary for GSOC to be able to function properly and more? There may even be amendments required.

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

They will allow us to do our job in a better way and perhaps somewhat alleviate the justifiable disquiet at the delays that exist in cases.

Chairman

Just one moment please, while I see who has indicated. This is one of the problems with the hybrid model that we operate. Deputy James O'Connor was online before the break, but I do not see him there now. In that case, does Deputy Catherine Murphy want to come back in?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I do indeed.

Chairman

She has five minutes, and we will just play it along.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

We will review it. I have a few questions. According to the briefing note, there is a case management system. I assume it is possible to capture how long it takes to conduct investigations and GSOC would be able give an analysis. It is absolutely essential that this is the case in order that it can properly estimate what its needs will be. Is that case management system sufficient to do that work? Is GSOC happy with the case management system that it has or does it need augmentation?

Ms Emily Logan

The case management system is antiquated. The kinds of questions that we have been asked today cannot be elicited from the current system that we have. As part of our transition, the project we talked about starting last year, one of the big things that we will be doing is investing time, effort and money into a new system. We are talking to sister organisations about how best to do that. That includes everything from equity of access up to some of the more complicated questions about cases, prosecution, disciplinary cases and all of the questions that we have been asked today. It is fair and frank to say that we are not getting the definitive information that we need from the existing system and we need a new system.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What is the timeline for the new system?

Ms Emily Logan

Our timeline is going along with the legislation, so it will be needed before the new governance model will exist.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Will the new system collect things such as ethnicity and geographical location - the existing system does not do so - because it is very important that we get a profile of exactly from where the complaints are coming and if there are issues with that kind of data screen?

Ms Emily Logan

The Deputy is right. We have had a number of internal meetings to try to improve in the interim, so we are not sitting on it. Although the system is old itself, we are trying to improve that equality-driven data on the basis of the nine protected grounds and the possible tenth ground of socioeconomic status. We will collate that information from the next couple of months so that we have some data.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is it possible to make a complaint about a Garda station rather than an individual Garda? I will use as an example the case of Sergeant Maurice McCabe because there was a culture in a station. Is it possible to make that kind of complaint or should the complaint about the individual be made to the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC? How would something like that be handled?

Mr. Hugh Hume

Our legislation says it must relate to a named garda who is capable of being subject to criminal or disciplinary proceedings. That does not mean that if there was a wealth of information, the commission itself could not potentially open some sort of an investigation. By and large, however, our legislation says it must be against a named individual who is subject to investigation. A member of the public would have to name a garda.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

In the response, reference was made to systemic issues. I would have thought this would stand out as a systemic issue.

Ms Emily Logan

The Deputy is right. The general scheme as currently drafted has a new head where we are obliged to collect data that would allow us to identify patterns and themes. In the long term, we would not look to depend on an individual complainant. We ourselves should be picking up those patterns and themes so that, if there is a problem in a particular Garda station, we ourselves would find that.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

On the investigations opened in the public interest, in 2021 there were 13, in 2020 there were 26, and in 2019 there were 44, so it is less. There are two questions, and I will deal with that one first. What kind of investigations would be opened in the public interest? What would prompt GSOC to do that? Are there examples the commission can give us where it has opened investigations and what happened to those?

Ms Emily Logan

The most serious investigations under the current legislation are under section 102 that relate to such cases as referred to by Mr. Hume earlier that we are obliged to look at, such as serious harm and death. That is the extreme end of those. The commission would meet at the beginning of the investigation, under section 91. The investigating team would examine it and then recommend an investigation be opened.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Would they not automatically be referred? I would have thought the section 102 provisions-----

Ms Emily Logan

They are automatically referred.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

So what are the investigations opened in the public interest? Are they different?

Mr. Hugh Hume

They might be something where there is no complainant, for example. It might be something we have been made aware of, such as through social media. In theory, we might see an incident that is of significant public interest and that we feel warrants investigation, or it might be something that comes into us as part of a complaint and, although the individual is not complaining about it, when we identify it, we feel it is something where we would wish to open an investigation.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Are there examples of such investigations? I am not sure the public fully understands. We have the same problem here in the Committee of Public Accounts, whereby people may believe that if an issue does not fit somewhere else, they can send a letter to the Committee of Public Accounts. Sometimes it is more about public accountability than public accounts. In the context of understanding GSOC's role and the public understanding of the role, I see, for example, that 855 complaints were determined as inadmissible. In many cases that may well be people inappropriately directing complaints to the commission rather than being vexatious complaints.

Mr. Hugh Hume

Absolutely.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I am trying to get an indication of what kinds of investigation would be opened in the public interest where there is not a referral. Examples are great at giving a steer to people.

Mr. Hugh Hume

I will give an example. A Garda superintendent may contact us and say he or she wants to bring something to our attention, for example, some very bad behaviour where a prisoner has been assaulted by a member of An Garda Síochána. The prisoner has not made a complaint and the prisoner has not suffered death or serious harm. At that moment, we would have no investigation, but under section 102(4) there may be CCTV from the station or there may be another Garda who would make a statement. We could then open that investigation without a complaint and say it is clearly wrong where a member of An Garda Síochána assaults somebody. That is a very generic example for the Deputy. When it comes to our attention, either from the Garda, from social media or from some other format, where we see clear and blatant wrongdoing but there is no complaint from a member of the public and there is no death or serious harm, then we would use the section 102(4) prerogative to open an investigation.

Deputy James O'Connor

I apologise to Deputy Murphy that I had to step out for one moment, and I thank the Chairman. I welcome the members of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission before the Committee of Public Accounts today. I want to develop a better understanding of the work they all do. Obviously, GSOC is a statutory independent body that is charged with overseeing the Garda, but when it comes to dealing with complaints, does GSOC have any capacity to investigate activity within the Garda on its own suspicion or information that something may be going on within the organisation that is worrying? Does it always have to be as a consequence of a report from members of the public? I open this question to either of the commissioners, Ms Hogan or Mr. Hume.

Mr. Hugh Hume

This talks to Deputy Murphy's point in that, if we were aware of something that caused concern, the commission would discuss it and we may open an investigation under section 102 (4) in the public interest. This may come about. We have spoken about protected disclosures and we have the powers to open investigations under the protected disclosure legislation also. Even where a member of the public has not contacted us, we may receive information from Garda management, Garda members or other sources and we may open a complaint in the public interest if we believe it is warranted.

Deputy James O'Connor

It is fascinating when looking at GSOC accounts to see the amount of money that is spent on staffing proportional to the operations of GSOC as an organisation. When it comes to the costings of undertaking the work GSOC is supposed to be doing, is there an issue of parity when it comes to that? Looking at the charts available to the Committee of Public Accounts, a very significant portion, which is well over 60% of resources, is spent on staffing. Does this include the legal costs of the work it is undertaking?

Mr. Hugh Hume

I suppose staffing is our operations. That is the people who, day to day, outside of hours, go to fatal traffic collisions, do the interviews, receive the calls inside the building, and supporting us through legal and corporate services. The operation of delivery is, effectively, costed through the staff costs. There are also costs for vehicles and fuel and so on.

Deputy James O'Connor

I will just ask the question again, to be direct about it. Essentially, if GSOC is undertaking a major investigation into wrongdoing in the Garda, obviously this would entail substantial legal costs. Are these included in the figures provided for the staff costs of the organisation? That is a direct "Yes" or "No" answer.

Mr. Hugh Hume

We have our own in-house legal team that would be included in the staffing costs, but we also have a legal budget. I will ask our director of administration to come in on that. We do have a separate legal budget.

Deputy James O'Connor

Okay. How big is the legal budget?

Ms Aileen Healy

Last year our legal costs outside of the costs of our own staff was €79,000.

Deputy James O'Connor

Was that €79,000 for the entirety of GSOC's legal budget?

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

That is for outside legal services.

Ms Aileen Healy

We have our own in-house legal team. This would relate to engaging external counsel, in addition. That figure was for 2020. Expenditure for 2021 was closer to €90,000 or €100,000. It changes from year to year.

Deputy James O'Connor

That is odd. Those numbers sound quite low. I am not being overly critical. The commission has its own in-house legal team. From an external point of view, however, 127 staff sounds a small complement for an organisation that is charged with oversight of the Garda.

The Garda Commissioner was before the committee last week and a number of important issues were raised with him. Respecting the separation between the Garda and GSOC arose. "Without referring to any specific case, there is a degree of concern about the culture of leaking within the Garda. There seem to be a consistent issue with leaking within the organisation. What work has GSOC undertaken to try to bring about reform and change in order to deal with that issue? It is causing concern for GSOC. There are a number of investigations under way. I am not asking our guests to comment on those cases but I am asking them to comment on the culture of leaking confidential information, relating particularly to PULSE files. Is GSOC doing anything to actively shut that down and maintain people's data privacy?

Mr. Hugh Hume

The Deputy is right that there have been cases in which information from members of the public or our own information has required us to conduct investigations into the leaking of information. There are ongoing investigations in that regard. We have in the past made recommendations of criminal and disciplinary consequences for the misuse of such information. Systemic recommendations have also been made to the Garda Commissioner around the access of information on PULSE. A number of other bodies have conducted reviews of the Garda and identified the ways in which the PULSE system has failed to be an effective management system. The Garda Commissioner has accepted a recommendation to change certain aspects of PULSE to allow for a more proactive capability to monitor leaks. Work is ongoing to procure such a system.

Deputy James O'Connor

I will turn to the efficiency of the work that is undertaken by GSOC, which is highly complex. Many of the cases undertaken by GSOC are extremely controversial. Is there anything that can be done to address the length of time it takes to investigate controversial cases? An investigation in Templemore has been going on for five years, which is an awfully long period. It is difficult to understand why that has taken such a long time. Are there, in general within the organisation, resourcing issues? Is there a shortage of legal personnel to do that work? The primary question I asked earlier related to budgeting for legal costs and external assistance. Is that something that needs to be worked on within the organisation?

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

Many of these investigations include a mixture of process and resources. We must look at both those issues in determining how to allocate staff. At the moment, we have a fixed number of case workers and investigators. We have sanction to recruit an extra 22 staff. An investigation begins once the case is admitted for investigation and resources are then allocated. Some investigations take wing and others do not. Some can be resolved relatively easily although they still consume time and resources. Some cases are like peeling an onion. When you peel off one level of skin off, there is another level beyond it. It is probably a truism to say that members of the Garda who are being investigate are well resourced and familiar with the system. They are better resourced than the people who would ordinarily be investigated by the Garda. They are aware of the rights to which they are entitled. We must respect due process.

Deputy James O'Connor

I completely respect that. It is uppermost in all of our considerations. How much of a backlog of investigations has GSOC at the moment? Is there an issue in terms of investigations that have been held up?

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

There is a general issue of staff mobility whereby we lose people in key positions through retirement and the ordinary mobility of the Civil Service. Our staff are entitled to be mobile within the overall operation. It is often difficult to replace the key members of staff we lose. People who are recruited do not become effective until they have been properly trained. I have already dealt with the difficulty in recruiting people who are trained.

Deputy James O'Connor

I understand that.

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

I cannot argue with the case the Deputy is making. It is difficult.

Deputy James O'Connor

That is a systemic issue across all sectors of the Civil Service and State agencies. What do our guests see as the solution to resolve that issue? Is it a salary issue? Do the conditions need to be addressed? Are employees finding the workload difficult to manage? I am trying to get a sense of what our guests feel the State needs to do to improve the organisation's capacity to undertake the work it has been tasked to do.

Ms Emily Logan

The three strands we have spoken about previously are: the simplification of the legislation: an improvement in resources, as our chair has spoken about; and recruitment. On the issue of mobility, and on a positive note, the people we are losing are in the main being promoted. That is a sign of the expertise within the organisation and the quality of the staff we have. The people we are losing are not generally disenfranchised. The majority are going because they are being promoted out of the organisation. That is not good for us.

Chairman

I ask any members who have not come in already and would like to do so to indicate by using the raise the hand signal. I call Deputy Hourigan for her second round of questioning.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I am okay.

Chairman

In that case, I will continue on the new Bill. Our guests have outlined that they welcome the Bill because it will help GSOC to be more independent and will strengthen the organisation. At the moment, what one power that it does not have and which it most needs to be able to do its job will GSOC have if the Bill, as it is drafted, passes? Are there one or two such issues on which our guests could put their fingers?

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

It would be easier for us to identify matters in the Bill about which we have concerns. We have already made that submission to the Joint Committee on Justice. We are generally happy with the Bill. We have certain reservations about two particular matters that I raised with the Minister some time ago. One of those relates to search warrants. We believe it would be more appropriate that search warrants would be issued under judicial oversight rather than by a member of the commission. There is also a proposal in the Bill that GSOC would have the power to review its own decisions, and I believe that proposal should be reconsidered because it may prove vulnerable to challenge on the basis that an organisation should not be reviewing its own decisions. That is a complaint that has been made in the context of a perception that gardaí should not be investigating gardaí. It is the same situation, as far as we are concerned.

Chairman

Mr. Justice MacCabe welcomes the Bill generally. What is the single biggest change it will bring about to strengthen GSOC?

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

It is making the system more streamlined so that we can get into the investigations quicker.

The more fences there are on a racetrack, the more chances that the horse will fall. Removing fences would make it simpler.

Chairman

What is the biggest fence GSOC has to jump at the moment?

Ms Emily Logan

It is the process. The obligation that we have to make that decision early complicates things from an early stage for everybody, including the complainant, the family, the guards and our staff.

Chairman

For members of the public making a complaint, GSOC has to decide whether it is admissible or not. Where should they go in the first instance with a complaint?

Ms Emily Logan

Members will have heard that over 90% of our complainants come to us online but we are aware of and sensitive to the fact that there are complainants who may never come to us. A Deputy referred to groups or communities who may not know we exist or have the confidence or capacity to come to us. We are trying to collect equality data to make sure we are identifying equity of access to GSOC. We have some work to do but are identifying things we will do. One of those is interacting with advocacy organisations who have proximity to and trust with communities and can signpost them to us.

Chairman

On the 10% who do not come to GSOC, would some go to a Garda station first?

Ms Emily Logan

They might.

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

There are people who assume, because of the title or for whatever reason, that we are part of An Garda Síochána. That may be a communications deficit on our part and we are looking at that.

Ms Emily Logan

Over 16.5% of our population comprises people who may have come from jurisdictions where they do not have trust in policing or their experience of policing is very different. We are cognisant of that. Our staff and case workers, as Mr. Hume referred to, are alive and sensitive to the occasions when we need advocacy organisations to assist us in helping people understand they can trust us as an organisation and as a place to come to make a complaint.

Chairman

Going back to the PULSE system, has GSOC identified examples where members leaked information from that system?

Mr. Hugh Hume

We have identified examples where members inappropriately accessed PULSE information.

Chairman

Has GSOC not identified any cases where they leaked information?

Mr. Hugh Hume

I do not think we have any cases pending where we can prove that it was passed on, at this stage.

Chairman

Have their been investigations into it?

Mr. Hugh Hume

Yes. Investigations are ongoing.

Chairman

On the cancellation of 999 calls, what role has GSOC had there? Are there investigations into gardaí or have any gardaí of any rank been held accountable for that?

Mr. Hugh Hume

The Policing Authority, which is up later, is aware and did the scoping exercise involving external experts. From our point of view, there is not a current investigation.

Chairman

Is Mr. Hume saying the Policing Authority is looking after that?

Mr. Hugh Hume

The Policing Authority is looking after the systemic issues, as I understand. I think the Commissioner talked to it the other day before this committee.

Chairman

It is more of a systemic problem, as opposed to maybe------

Mr. Hugh Hume

We have not involved in the detail, at this stage, of that matter.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

In relation to the meeting with the Garda Commissioner, I understand there needs to be a working relationship. It is an independent organisation and there needs to be respect for that independence. Has there been a difficulty with the division of labour? Has there been conflict between the guards and GSOC in relation to who should have responsibility for particular investigations?

Mr. Hugh Hume

"Conflict" is probably a strong word. There have been occasions when the same incident has attracted two approaches. For example, in a public order instance, as the Chair alluded to, a member of the public might complain that he or she was assaulted by An Garda Síochána while that body might be prosecuting that person for a public order situation. In those circumstances we have clear protocols around ensuring the court with jurisdiction over the matter has all information, whether it is sitting in GSOC or An Garda Síochána. We exchange information regularly to ensure we both know what stage we are at in an investigation.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

For example, there will be disciplinary issues that will be dealt with by the guards but they could ending up being something that a protected disclosure is made about. Does that kind of conflict happen? Has GSOC identified things in relation to which there should be greater understanding of boundaries?

Mr. Hugh Hume

The new legislation makes it clear that all complaints have to be referred to GSOC. In the future, An Garda Síochána will not have the opportunity to investigate matters but must refer them to us. That will resolve that matter, I think.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I am not looking for details of protected disclosures but has GSOC got such disclosures? Do they come internally from GSOC or from An Garda Síochána? What tends to be the profile?

Mr. Hugh Hume

We have a protected disclosures unit comprising, I think, seven investigators currently, whose role is to investigate protected disclosures from within An Garda Síochána to us. We have 69 cases on hand of such disclosures from within An Garda Síochána to us.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The fact GSOC has seven people on it suggests it is an ongoing stream of work.

Chairman

Investigations into disciplinary cases is supposed to be wrapped up in 16 to 20 weeks. Is that happening?

Mr. Hugh Hume

That 16 to 20 weeks refers to the unsupervised investigations to be passed back to us. There are a number of cases from the 4 July period we discussed where the dispute was notified to us and with regard to which we have written escalation letters to senior management in the guards saying the timelines have not been met. I do not have a figure. The cases we talked about earlier were existing on 4 July and are still subject.

Chairman

There is seven months lost. We will take that. Outside of that, will Mr. Hume cast his mind back to pre July last year? Are those investigations being completed in the 16- to 20-week period. I refer to the disciplinary investigations not supervised by GSOC but carried out internally by An Garda Síochána of officers. Was that happening?

Mr. Hugh Hume

I know anecdotally that a number were but on some occasions we had to escalate it. I could not give the committee any integrity-----

Chairman

GSOC had to go up the ranks in An Garda Síochána and someone more senior, maybe a chief superintendent, would have to intervene.

Mr. Hugh Hume

That is correct.

Chairman

Or an assistant commissioner.

Mr. Hugh Hume

Or assistant commissioner, or the Commissioner. That is our agreed protocol for escalation of complaints that are not dealt with in the 16 weeks.

Chairman

Without putting Mr. Hume on the spot to come up with an exact figure, what would the longest one be? Would cases drag on for six months or a year?

Mr. Hugh Hume

I would not have that knowledge.

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

We can get the committee that detail.

Chairman

Will the witnesses come back to us with that?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

On protected disclosures, does GSOC have a profile it could give us?

I ask it to provide the committee a note on the number of protected disclosures. I assume some of them are closed at this stage. I am looking for a broad outline of what they are about. I suspect they are equally to do with culture within an organisation because sometimes if one can deal with a matter by raising it internally, it does not attract a protected disclosure. Such disclosures are made when one cannot get to a resolution. Are they to do with culture or individuals within a particular station or things like that? What is the nature of the disclosures that have already been dealt with, for example? It would be useful to get an indication of that because it will tell us something about-----

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

We will do that.

Chairman

As regards complaints, is there a red flag system if an above-average number of complaints are emanating from a particular Garda division or station in whatever area? To qualify that, I acknowledge some of the complaints made are not admissible, as can be seen from the figures presented by GSOC. There are many vexatious complaints but there are also some genuine complaints. If there are several admissible complaints in respect of a particular area, division or station, does that trigger investigation by GSOC as there may be a more serious matter at play?

Mr. Hugh Hume

It has not done so to date. By and large, we are dealing with complaints from members of the public about individual Garda members. All those complaints are passed to An Garda Síochána, so it is aware of all the complaints by member, unit, station and district. That is all available to the internal affairs section of An Garda Síochána.

Chairman

To clarify, GSOC has not had situations where there are a particularly large number of complaints relating to a particular station or division.

Mr. Hugh Hume

To my memory, we have not had situations in the past year where we have opened a complaint based on that.

Chairman

Okay. That is clear enough.

Ms Emily Logan

The Chairman should bear in mind that some stations have a greater population and one would naturally expect to have more complaints from them just by virtue of demographics.

Chairman

I understand that. It is about the ratio of population and the size of the district and all that. There are new divisions now as well. It is to be hoped they will work well.

That completes the questions. I thank our guests from GSOC for attending and its staff for the preparation and briefing notes for the meeting. I also thank the Comptroller and Auditor General and his staff for their attendance and assistance. I wish Mr. Justice MacCabe well in his new role. He was appointed in January.

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

I convey our gratitude for the opportunity the committee has given us this morning. This is a learning process for us as well. We would welcome the visit to GSOC of a deputation from the committee to give members an opportunity to speak to the people involved and look at the way the work is done. That might be useful. It would also be good for our staff.

Chairman

That is good.

Mr. Justice Rory MacCabe

The committee should feel free to communicate with us about that.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Justice MacCabe for that offer. I acknowledge we received correspondence from GSOC in July and December and more recently, and it is normally informative and clear. I thank GSOC for that.

The witnesses withdrew.

Sitting suspended at 12.04 p.m. and resumed at 1.31 p.m.

Deputy Catherine Murphy took the Chair.