COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 7 Jul 2022

Chapter 8 - Management of the Schools Estate

Mr. Gavan O'Leary (Assistant Secretary, Department of Education) called and examined.

Chairman

I welcome everyone to the meeting. Apologies have been received from Deputy Imelda Munster. In order to limit the risk of spreading Covid-19, the service encourages all members, visitors and witnesses to continue to wear face masks when moving around the campus or when in close proximity to others, to be respectful of other people's physical space and to adhere to any other public health advice.

Members of the committee attending remotely must do so from within the precincts of Leinster House. This is due to the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the Parliament.

The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee. He is accompanied this morning by Mr. William Cronin, audit manager at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

This morning we engage with officials from the Department of Education to examine the following: the 2020 appropriation account for Vote 26 – Education; from the Comptroller and Auditor General's 2018 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services - Chapter 7, Purchase of sites for school provision; and from the Comptroller and Auditor General's 2019 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services - Chapter 8, Management of the schools estate. Due to unforeseen circumstances, the Secretary General, Ms Bernie McNally, could not be in attendance for today's meeting. As the Secretary General is the Department's Accounting Officer and that function cannot be delegated, I propose that we make the transcript of today's proceedings available to the Secretary General to allow her, in her capacity as Accounting Officer, to comment on or clarify any matters that arise during the course of the meeting. As a similar situation arose in respect of our meeting with the Department of Foreign Affairs last week, I also propose that we afford that Department's Accounting Officer the same opportunity. Is that agreed? Agreed. I wish Ms McNally well and hope she will be back in good fettle soon.

We are joined in the committee room by the following officials from the Department of Education: Mr. Gavan O'Leary, assistant secretary, corporate services; Mr. Hubert Loftus, assistant secretary and head of the planning and building unit; Ms Deirdre Mc Donnell, assistant secretary and head of major operations and shared services; Mr. Harold Hislop, chief inspector; Ms Martina Mannion, assistant secretary; and Mr. Tom Whelan, principal officer and head of the finance unit. We are joined remotely from outside the precincts of Leinster House by the following assistant secretaries from the Department: Ms Aoife Conduit, Ms Deirdre Shanley and Mr. Tomás Ó Ruairc. In addition, we are joined by Ms Georgina Hughes-Elders, principal officer in the education Vote section at the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

As usual, I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile telephones are switched off or in silent mode. Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. However, three of today's witnesses are giving their evidence remotely from a place outside the parliamentary precincts and, as such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as does a witness who is physically present. These witnesses have already been advised that they may think it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter.

Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 218 such that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I now call the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, to make his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Vote 26 was restructured in 2020 following the formation of the Government. Responsibility for the previous Vote programmes for higher education and science were transferred to the new Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. Responsibility for first level, second level and early years education remained with the renamed Department of Education.

The appropriation account for Vote 26 - Education records gross expenditure of €8.6 billion in 2020. This was up 4.3% year-on-year relative to the comparable programme in 2019. In 2020, the largest element of spending was for the pay and pensions of current and former teachers and other school staff, amounting to €6.72 billion in total. Payments related to the provision of school buildings and extensions and other educational infrastructure totalled €848 million in 2020. This included €65 million in payments related to public-private partnership provision of schools. Expenditure on school transport totalled just under €225 million.

On the receipts side, appropriations-in-aid of the Vote amounted to €355 million in 2020. The majority of these receipts are pension-related contributions from current education employees. It should be noted that employee contributions from employees who are members of the single public service pension scheme, recruited since January 2013, are remitted directly to Vote 12. For 2020, the surplus to be surrendered from Vote 26 was just under €138 million. This resulted from net underspending across the Vote subheads. I issued a clear audit opinion for the appropriation account for 2020.

In my annual report for 2018, I presented a report on the purchase between 2016 and 2018 of three high-value sites for school developments in Dublin city. The three sites in question were the former Rehab premises at Roslyn Park in Sandymount; the former greyhound racing stadium site in Harold's Cross; and buildings owned by the former Dublin Institute of Technology located in Cathal Brugha Street and Marlborough Street. The three sites were bought for a combined total of just over €67 million. Our focus was in establishing whether a well-defined business case was in place and how the Department of Education ensured value for money was achieved for the very substantial prices paid for the sites.

In each case, it was noted that the sites acquired did not meet the Department's own guidelines for minimum site area for development of schools. In practice, given the challenges of developing schools in established urban areas, the Department was planning to maximise the potential of the sites, for example by locating both a primary and a post-primary school on the larger sites and by allowing for use of multistorey buildings. The report recommended that the Department should review its parameters for the size of sites required for schools to allow for more intensive development of sites in restricted areas. The Accounting Officer has provided additional information on how the sites have been utilised since the report was published in September 2019 and on progress being made to develop permanent school premises and facilities on these valuable sites.

The Department of Education has overall responsibility for management of the nation's schools estate, which comprises almost 4,000 premises and land serving a student population of around 950,000. This property represents an accumulated investment by taxpayers of many billions of euro. In my annual report for 2019, I sought to outline the Department’s arrangements for monitoring the condition of school properties, funding of maintenance and refurbishment and protection of the State's financial interest in those properties.

Recommendations in the report include the conduct of a survey to assess the condition of schools nationwide in a consistent manner to facilitate strategic targeting of resources; the development of guidance and good practice information to assist schools in their maintenance responsibilities; the implementation of legal agreements where appropriate to protect the State's interest in the schools estate; and refinements in accounting practice. I am glad to report that all of the recommendations were accepted by the Department. The Accounting Officer has provided an update on progress made in implementing the recommendations since the publication of the report in September 2020.

Chairman

I welcome Mr. O'Leary and thank him for leading the delegation at short notice. I know it happened really quickly. As detailed in the letter of invitation, he has five minutes for an opening statement.

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

I am one of the assistant secretaries in the Department of Education. In beginning my statement, I have been asked to convey the sincere apologies of my Secretary General, Ms Bernie McNally, for not being able to attend the committee today. Unfortunately, she is unwell, and in line with current public health advice she is self-isolating and unable to be here.

I thank the committee the invitation to attend today to discuss the Department of Education 2020 appropriation accounts, chapter 7 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2018, which deals with the purchase of sites for school provision, and chapter 8 of the 2019 report, which deals with the management of the schools estate. As indicated by the Chairman, I am joined by officials from the Department who will cover various aspects of the matters under discussion. We are also joined remotely by three assistant secretaries covering different areas of the Department. We have provided the committee with briefing material in advance and hope this has been of some assistance.

As the committee is aware, a new Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science was established after the formation of the new Government in 2020. Functions previously performed by the Department of Education and Skills were transferred to the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science in 2020. The Vote 26 2020 accounts cover those functions that remain with the Department of Education and relate predominantly to primary and post-primary education.

The Department's net voted expenditure in 2020 was €8.379 billion. Of this, €925 million was capital expenditure. Net pay and superannuation account for approximately 78% of the Department's overall budget. In 2020, this provided for almost 93,000 public service employees and 42,000 public service pensioners.

The Department’s programme expenditure now covers one programme area, namely, programme A. The overall net expenditure for 2020 was €8.241 billion and covered, for example, pay and superannuation costs for teachers and special needs assistants; grants to schools, including capitation payments; costs associated with teacher education; and provision of school transport. This sum also covered additional costs arising due to the impact on schools of Covid-19.

Due to the transfer of functions I referred to earlier, the Department's Revised Estimates Volume, REV, was further revised to take account of the transfer of functions in 2020. Funding was also allocated as part of the further Revised Estimates process to cover costs arising due to Covid-19. In July 2020, the Government agreed a living with Covid package, which made funding available from the Covid-19 reserve fund to support the reopening of schools in September 2020.

As the impacts of Covid-19 developed, supplementary supports were also agreed during the remainder of 2020 and beyond. The funding for these supports totalled €639 million for the 2020-21 school year. Of this, €331 million was allocated for expenditure in 2020. This was allocated to cover additional costs arising due to Covid-19, such as additional substitution to cover teacher absences on sick leave, additional capital works to schools to enhance their safety in a Covid-19 environment, capitation for personal protective equipment, PPE, hand sanitisers etc. and school transport. The full amount was not spent in 2020. However, due to the uncertainties arising from Covid-19, it was prudent to make provision in the Vote for more negative scenarios in the later months of 2020.

Moving to procurement, the statement of internal financial control that forms part of the appropriation account provides details regarding the control systems in place. It also notes details of instances of non-compliance with public procurement rules. Such instances have arisen for reasons such as urgency, need for business continuity and sole supplier. The Department is vigilant regarding good procurement practice and is committed to following the guidance available. The Department is actively engaged with the procurement reform programme and is taking the opportunity to use centralised contracts and frameworks where appropriate.

On the question of public sector reform, the statement on internal financial control also notes the Department activity in the area of shared services. The Department is advancing a range of initiatives across the entire education and training sector and is actively leading and participating in the rolling out of shared services.

On the school capital programme, this committee meeting will also discuss chapter 7 on the purchase of sites for school provision and chapter 8 on the management of the schools estate. These chapters included a number of recommendations from the Comptroller and Auditor General. The Department is actively addressing these recommendations, with significant progress made. The Department is taking every opportunity to continuously improve and strengthen its processes through its integration and harnessing of data, allowing for better strategic planning and delivery of its overall school building programme.

I will mention briefly some developments in 2021 and 2022. The Covid-19 pandemic had an impact on the Department's activity in an unprecedented manner and the 2020 accounts. This impact has continued into 2021 and 2022. The education system's response was aligned to our core national priority of saving lives while being focused on ensuring continuity of education for learners, including a particular focus on more vulnerable students.

On the Ukrainian crisis, the arrival of a large number of Ukrainian children of schoolgoing age has created challenges in finding school places for them and responding to their needs. There is a significant cost associated with this important work, which will be reflected in the 2022 accounts.

On special education needs, more than €2 billion of the Department’s budget is invested in special education needs. A significant amount has been achieved. For example, by the end of this year we will have 2,500 special classes across the country. However, there is still an amount to be done and the Department is working intensively to ensure that all children with special educational needs can access a high quality and inclusive education in their locality. I thank members for the opportunity to address the committee. We are happy to take any questions.

Deputy James O'Connor

I wish the Secretary General well and a speedy recovery. On a positive note, I recognise that 2020 was an exceptionally challenging year for the Department. It had to deal with a lot of new changes relating to Covid-19. Perhaps not everything was done right, but I imagine it was not a very easy experience for departmental staff. I also wish to acknowledge the work done by those on the front line in schools during that period.

The first issue that I wish to raise is very much under discussion currently. It concerns the requirement for legislation to be rushed through to provide additional supports for children with special needs. It is an issue that is raised with me repeatedly. When I am running my constituency clinics, I am approached by many families looking for supports and school places for their children. The delivery of such supports and places in the Cork area is far behind where it needs to be. I am sure Ms Mannion will be aware of the issues in County Cork, in particular, and in south County Dublin, where the issue seems to be more acute than in other parts of the country. That represents a systems failure by the Department, and something that requires urgent action to be taken. I know that work is being done at the moment. I will provide an example. Recently, the Minister came to my constituency and we visited a number of schools. We visited one secondary school with more than 800 pupils, which has an allocation of just one SNA. That is shocking. This issue is being raised in other areas of the country. I am being repeatedly told, by school principals, that despite frequent requests being made to the local officer tasked with liaising between the Department and the schools, they are getting nowhere. That is affecting areas such as Midleton, Cobh and Glanmire. It is extremely serious. What is the Department doing to try to improve and build upon the work being undertaken to try to limit the scenario where the schools out there quite frankly cannot get the resources they require? As I mentioned earlier, I visited a school with 800 pupils to which only one SNA is allocated. That is not reflective of the needs of the students who require SNA support.

Is Ms Mannion in charge of that brief?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

For the purposes-----

Deputy James O'Connor

I asked a question. Is Ms Mannion in charge of that brief?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

I was just going to say that I will refer to Ms Mannion to respond to the issues raised by the Deputy. However, because the Secretary General is not here, she asked me to manage the team, as it were.

Deputy James O'Connor

I am entitled to ask any witness a question.

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

I was just going to say that I will refer to Ms Mannion to respond to the Deputy's questions. That is part of her brief.

Deputy James O'Connor

I appreciate that.

Ms Martina Mannion

The Department is committed to ensuring that every child has access to an appropriate placement to meet their educational needs. As the Deputy will be aware, the vast bulk of children in our school system are educated in the mainstream system, with access to special education teaching supports and SNAs. Approximately 1% of our children attend special schools, and another 1% are in special classes. The Deputy mentioned the Cork area. There are 244 special classes for children with ASD at primary level and 99 special classes for children at post-primary level in County Cork. That is a total of 343 special classes in the county. As my colleague, Mr. O'Leary, mentioned, we will have almost 2,500 special classes by the end of the year. In the context of setting out how we are supporting children, it is important to highlight that we have made significant investment in special education in recent years. There has been a fivefold increase in the number of special classes in the past decade. There are almost 19,000 SNAs in the system.

With regard to County Cork in particular, as the Deputy will be aware, we have opened one new special school in Carrigaline under the patronage of the education and training board, ETB. Another new special school will be opened in Rochestown later this year. The Deputy mentioned the challenges in south County Dublin, in particular. While there are challenges, overall, the development of special classes and special school provision across the country is going a significant way towards meeting the needs of children with special educational needs. Of course, we are conscious that we need to do more. The Deputy mentioned County Dublin. It might interest him to know that there are almost 336 special classes at primary level in County Dublin in 43% of all of the schools in the area. At post-primary level, almost 45% of the schools in the county have special classes. The number has significantly increased this year, notwithstanding that challenges remain in a small number of places. We are working closely with schools to ensure that we can deliver those places for September 2022.

The Deputy also made reference to the passing of legislation. We are grateful that the Dáil passed legislation relating to section 37A of the Education Act 1998 yesterday. The provision allows the Department and the Minister to have faster access to special classes, which is in the best interest of children with special educational needs. The Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, announced in May that for the third time, the process was being recommenced to allow for the delivery of extra special classes in the Dublin area.

On the issue of SNAs, as the Deputy will be aware, there are more than 19,000 SNAs-----

Deputy James O'Connor

I am sorry but I will have to stop Ms Mannion there. Time is limited. We have discussed the issue of SNAs. I appreciate her response. I mentioned gaps in provision. One of the areas affected is east Cork. I do not want to be parochial, but I want to use the area as an example. I am sure other members are aware of similar examples. If parents living in Youghal have a child with significant educational needs for whom mainstream education is not an option and he or she wants to attend one of the special schools, they are faced with having to travel to Cork city or Dungarvan. The journey to Cork city takes 50 minutes with no traffic, and 70 minutes if there is. The journey to Dungarvan takes 30 or 40 minutes. I acknowledge that the provision of transportation to special schools is not entirely within the Department's remit. I understand that the HSE has a role in the provision of these transportation services, and it does not transport children to special schools beyond the county boundary. To me, that is deeply frustrating. It is something that should be looked at.

I will move on, because time is limited. I understand that Mr. Loftus has responsibility in the area of school construction and the building unit. Is that correct?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes. I am head of the planning and building unit.

Deputy James O'Connor

The planning and building unit is shrouded in mystery. I am sure Mr. Loftus will be aware that I have tabled many parliamentary questions and have raised other issues of concern regarding school capacity in County Cork. My experience in dealing with the unit has been appalling. It has been one of the worst experiences that I have had in politics in engaging with any individual unit within the Civil Service.

What epitomised it was the rapid build projects that were presented in 2012. There was a number of them around the country. One of them was in Carrigtwohill. At the time, it was the most expensive school project ever presented and one of the largest school capital developments in the history of the State. It was for a three-school campus. It was presented as a rapid build in 2012, but the sod has still not been turned on that project. It beggars belief that this is allowed to happen. There are other such instances. A major fire broke out in a school in Mallow in 2016. To this day the sod still has not been turned on the reconstruction of the damaged part of the school and additional facilities, which is appalling.

Can Mr. Loftus give an indication of why this happens? It is worth noting that it involves significant public funds. We are talking about hundreds of millions of euro and even billions of euro for capital projects for schools. Why is that allowed to drag on with no sense of accountability? Nobody seems to have been fired for the errors that took place in 2012. If it had happened in the private sector, someone would not last six months. I will give Mr. Loftus a chance to respond.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I am disappointed if that is the perception the Deputy has of the planning and building unit. I came in as head of the unit in October 2017. One of my priorities was focusing on delivery of the national development plan. That is a significant programme of investment. It was revised last year and we have a €4.4 billion programme over the period 2021 to 2025. To give a sense of the scale of what we are delivering, between 2018 and 2021 we delivered almost 700 school building projects across the country. We do not focus on any particular area such as Cork or wherever. My job has a national remit and focuses on that.

In terms of transparency, I believe we are transparent. We have a published list of all our school building projects on our website and we update it monthly, giving the current status-----

Deputy James O'Connor

On the issue of transparency, if the Department is in communication with a trust about a new school project or development, is that always communicated to the school's board of management and the school's principal?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I suppose, just to-----

Deputy James O'Connor

Is it "Yes" or "No"?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I have to give context in answering any question. In terms of the Education Act, building matters are dealt with more at patron or trust level than at board of management or school principal level. Obviously, they have a strategic interest there. When projects are being done, design teams are appointed. They are the professional people who are involved in projects. They have a remit and requirement under the design team procedures to provide monthly progress reports to the school authority, and that would typically be the board of management, on progress on those. In terms of the individual arrangements down at the detail of how the interaction with the board of management or school principal works, I am head of the planning and building unit with a remit across 4,000 schools so I do not get into the nitty-gritty of what happens within the bowels and boards of every school.

At the more strategic level and at national level, we have a very large track record of delivery. We spend our allocation in our budgets. If our Department is compared to many others, and I am aware colleagues from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform are present, ours is a Department that consistently delivers and spends in the capital area.

Deputy James O'Connor

The clock is ticking and I want to make one thing crystal clear. The model being used by the Department at present for the determination of where new schools are required is utterly flawed. Three and four years hence in east Cork, when the Department continues its current plan, which is not to construct a new additional secondary school in that area to serve the needs of the area, that model is going to fail. Extension after extension have been put onto approximately nine schools in the east Cork area over the past ten years, and they are all full. In the case of one school there are 600 pupils in prefabs. I am sure Mr. Loftus is aware of that in Carrigtwohill.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes.

Deputy James O'Connor

It is daft that this has been allowed to continue. That is the one I referenced regarding the rapid build in 2012. I do not agree with Mr. Loftus when it comes to transparency, but the model that is being used is not looking at the demographic within the households; it is looking more at the construction of new housing. I think that is the model used. The information is not necessarily being taken from the census and it is not being used in the most efficient way it can be. Due to the rate of growth and development in a lot of metropolitan regions in the country, I urge that the model be adapted and changed as a matter of urgency to avoid what is currently happening in east Cork where there is a deficit of approximately 20, when the figures are boiled down. That is still a lot of children to be without a school place for September. I fear, from the information we have from the primary schools, that it will only get worse. Will Mr. Loftus give a brief reply?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

We have a huge amount of work done on reforming how we do our planning. We have a geographic information system, GIS, which brings data from the census, child benefit data and housing data together. The wider context here is that we are in a demographic downward trend with regard to primary schools. That is projected to fall by 100,000 over the next decade. That applies nationally, but it also applies to Cork. When we are looking at Cork and east Cork, we are looking at the demographics, the housing and where the primary is on the downward curve. The first port of call when dealing with extra provision is existing schools. That is consistent with Government policy on compact growth. Then we look at additionality and new schools. However, when one is looking at a 1,000-pupil school at post-primary level, for example, a lot of additional housing is required to achieve the cohort needed for that for a 50-year or 60-year lifespan there might be in that building. We are not far from peak at post-primary level in the east Cork area. If the Deputy wants a briefing, we are happy-----

Deputy James O'Connor

There are 1,000 houses being built in east Cork at present and there are plans for a new town there. We are far from the peak. It is going to get an awful lot worse. I know that is the national trend, but it is not the trend where I am from.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

We are happy to give the Deputy a briefing on east Cork.

Deputy James O'Connor

If the Department agrees to do that, I would be delighted.

Chairman

Deputy Carthy has ten minutes.

Deputy Matt Carthy

I thank our guests for attending. In respect of SNA posts, it was announced in budget 2022 that 1,165 new posts would be created. How many of those posts are now filled and operational?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

I will ask Ms Mannion to respond.

Ms Martina Mannion

The budget in 2022 provided for an additional 1,165 SNA posts, which will bring the overall number in the system to 19,169 by December 2022. As of 31 May, 623 of the 1,165 posts had been allocated. The remaining 542 posts will be allocated by 31 December 2022 as part of the SNA exceptional review process and by posts being assigned to special schools and special classes.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Of the 623 that have been allocated, have they all been filled and are they operational?

Ms Martina Mannion

The posts are assigned to the individual schools. The schools recruit the SNAs. Where SNAs are recruited to primary schools, they are paid on the departmental payroll, which operates out of Athlone for primary and post-primary. Where SNAs are in education and training board, ETB, schools, they are on the ETB shared services payroll.

Deputy Matt Carthy

I am sorry to interrupt, but time is tight. How many of the posts are actually filled?

Ms Martina Mannion

It is a matter for each board of management to recruit the staff it needs in line with the sanction. As they are recruited they go immediately onto the payroll.

Deputy Matt Carthy

How many are on the payroll?

Ms Martina Mannion

I do not have the figures as to how many are on an individual payroll except that I am-----

Deputy Matt Carthy

Ms Mannion has indicated that the Government announced the creation of 1,165 new SNA posts at budget time. As of 31 May, according to the information the Department is giving us now, only 623 of them have been allocated.

Ms Martina Mannion

That is correct.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Of those that have been allocated, how many are actually filled? Of those 623, how many wages is the Department paying?

Ms Martina Mannion

The payroll of the Department for the non-teaching staff, which includes SNAs, will include all the SNAs on the payroll. It will not be broken down by individual SNAs in individual schools.

Deputy Matt Carthy

I understand that, but surely the Department knows how many. Is there anybody here who can give me that information?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

I do not have that information to hand, but we can get it for the Deputy. We can follow up on that.

Deputy Matt Carthy

That is disappointing, particularly considering we hear these big announcements. As elected representatives, we all deal with individuals and schools where families are in desperate need of supports for their children. In that context, we do not have a definitive number as to how many of the additional SNA posts are actually in place.

I want to touch on school buildings and get some clarification on the information in our briefing notes. Am I correct in saying that, between 2014 and 2018, the Department acquired 65 sites across the State at a cost of €135 million?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

Does Mr. Loftus want to come in on that?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes. The Deputy is correct.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Twenty-four of those sites were in Dublin, and they cost €120 million.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes. Dublin, because of its location, is more expensive when it comes to the purchase of sites and-----

Deputy Matt Carthy

Yes, but are the figures I have here are correct?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes.

Deputy Matt Carthy

That would suggest that 41 sites outside of Dublin were acquired for €15 million or, basically, that two thirds of all sites were acquired for under 10% of the cost. I understand and everybody recognises the cost difference between Dublin and other areas. Are the schools or the sites also substantially bigger or is it all down to variations in property prices?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

It can depend on whether the site is for a primary or a post-primary school. It can then depend on the size requirement. For example, in Leitrim a small primary school might be needed. In south Dublin a big 1,000-pupil post-primary might be needed. We have guidelines on site areas. Generally, at primary level, we might need, say, two acres to five acres and, at post-primary level, eight acres to 11 acres. Those are guidelines, however. We made it more explicit in our guidelines, following the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, that this is just guidance and that the size requirements are lower in urban areas. We looked to see how we could maximise the value of sites in terms of provision. Typically, we try to have campus sites wherever we can to maximise the value.

Deputy Matt Carthy

But the question I asked was as follows. Of the schools that were provided between 2014 and 2018, from which I have extrapolated the figures I have cited, were those in Dublin substantially larger than the others? Does Mr. Loftus have information as to the number of students who were catered for within the 24 sites in Dublin versus the 41 elsewhere? Do we have a-----

Mr. Hubert Loftus

We can provide that breakdown on a side-by-side basis. Typically speaking, large urban areas are larger in terms of student numbers, not necessarily larger in terms of site areas. That just reflects the cost of sites in Dublin. There can be the world of difference between buying an acre of land in south Dublin and buying an acre of land in Roscommon.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Yes, but we are talking about the entire State outside Dublin. Has the Department yet carried out an analysis as to the new sites that will need to be purchased both in Dublin and in the rest of the State between now and 2040?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

As for planning, the benefit that came from the Government's policy approach of the national planning framework, Project Ireland 2040, is that it sort of sets a picture for us in terms of towns and areas where there are long-term population projections. That then guides our decision-making in respect of site requirements. More generally, however, as to where we are in respect of the cycle of demographics, at primary level, for the next decade or so, we will be in a downward spiral, with 100,000 or more fewer pupils. In a few years' time we will be at the peak at post-primary level, and that will also be on a downward curve, so-----

Deputy Matt Carthy

Can the Department provide us with the numbers for the new sites?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes. Well, we have our site acquisition programme. The point I was going to make is that there would be less of a requirement for new schools in the context of that cycle of demographics. The wider point I will make is that our focus when it comes to Government policy is very much on compact growth, which is putting more of the housing developments in existing areas, which in turn will be of benefit to us from a schools perspective to maximise the value of existing sites.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Can I take it from that response that the Department does not have an actual figure as to the number of new sites that it plans to acquire in Dublin and outside of Dublin?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

It is something we have in play all the time. We have our sites acquisition programme, but we continually update our demographics and our requirements to take account of the roll-out of housing developments as that comes through, so it is very much an evolving picture. We can provide the Deputy with a snapshot.

Deputy Matt Carthy

That would be useful. When we deal with school applications for minor works or emergency works, my understanding is - I have lost the figure. Maybe the witnesses could direct me to the cost of those works annually.

It strikes me that those works are often school-led in the sense that a school will make an application to the Department, which generally takes quite a long time. Then there are the likes of windows and other works that would have a benefit in terms of energy savings but also just for the obvious reasons. Is it the case that the Department acts only at the behest of boards of management? If, for example, a board of management is not as robust in checking the quality of windows, is the Department not proactive in assessing the standard of buildings?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I will make just a general point. Looking at maintenance and how it is done currently, and the mechanisms and schemes in place to facilitate that, we have the minor works grant. That is for primary schools and is typically of the order of €30 million annually. There is the emergency works scheme and the summer works scheme. They are the main mechanisms. Typically, that would be in or around €100 million a year in total. The figure can go up or down a bit, but that is the average. Obviously, an emergency is an emergency, so that is school-led or there might be an architect or whoever else out at a school. The minor works scheme is a mechanism to enable schools to do small-scale works and gives them the flexibility for that. The summer works scheme is a multi-annual scheme. There are various categories of works within that. Schools then apply on that basis. We work through that in priority order. In that regard, first, as part of our climate agenda, we will have a strong climate action focus in respect of summer works. There will be more clarity on that in the autumn in terms of detail and an application process for schools. Second, coming back to the point Deputy Carthy raises, we are moving towards a more system-led approach to maintenance to help pick up on the scenarios to which he alludes of a school principal or a school that may not be doing as much on the maintenance front. As part and parcel of that and of forward-planning from a climate perspective, we are doing energy profiling of the school estate. We have 580 schools currently being surveyed as a first tranche of those, and we envisage the bulk of the balance of schools to be done over the course of 2023 and 2024. That then gives a clear picture of where the priorities are from a system perspective.

Obviously, schools can pick stuff up as well. A combination of both will go through.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Loftus. I call Deputy Burke.

Deputy Colm Burke

I thank all the departmental officials for the work they have been doing, especially in the context of the Covid-19 pandemic. It has been a challenging time.

Turning to deal with the schools building process and the process we have regarding schools building projects, and especially the tendering process, the whole context of the system has now changed. A tender could be submitted today and the price for that project could be completely different in six months’ time. Has there been an examination of the current tendering process? I raise this issue because I was involved with a school where the contract was offered to the lowest tenderer. There was, however, a substantial delay from when the tenders for that project were received to the time the offer was made. The tenderer could not then take the contract at the relevant price. The contractor offered to undertake the project for a slightly higher amount but that would still have been below the value of next lowest tender. The Department’s attitude was that it could not do that and that the price could not be adjusted once it had been submitted. It ended up that the contract in question went to the fifth tenderer. The other four companies that tendered said they could not undertake the project at the prices they had originally submitted. The whole project cost approximately €1 million more than envisaged, whereas if the Department had negotiated with the lowest tenderer, €750,000 would have been saved. Has a review of the tendering process been undertaken? What are the mechanisms for dealing with tendering now in view of the changing situation in this regard, with building costs increasing substantially in a short period?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

Construction cost inflation is an issue that Mr. Loftus is probably best placed to address. It is an ongoing issue for him.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Across the construction sector, whether involving schools or other projects, we are seeing issues impacting construction inflation. These include Covid-19, Brexit, the war in Ukraine and supply chain issues. Therefore, it is a difficult and challenging environment. From the Department’s perspective, we have revised our basic building cost limit, which acts as a guideline and reflects tender prices, etc. We have updated that cost limit by 21% since May 2021. It has gone from €1,640 per sq. m to €1,990 per sq. m. From our perspective, we are anxious to ensure that projects get to the construction stage and that we keep a good, steady flow of projects going to construction all the time. Currently, we have more than 250 projects at the construction stage. We are conscious of getting them through. The current environment in the context of inflation has made that more challenging to achieve. We are conscious and appreciative of the work by the Office of Government Procurement, OGP, in respect of helping to manage the situation.

Deputy Colm Burke

The problem is really with the timescale from when tenders are received to when the contract is awarded to the tenderer the Department deems appropriate to undertake the job. Has this aspect been examined in respect of determining whether it can be expedited to secure progress and move these projects forward? I know of other projects, not involving this Department, where there was such a delay in accepting the tender that the company awarded it walked off the site and said it was not possible to undertake the project. The delay was such that it looks now like that project will have to go back out to a public invitation to seek new tenders to undertake the work.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

From the Department’s perspective, we have no strategic interest in delaying any projects getting to the stage where work can be undertaken on-site. Regarding the turnaround times, from our perspective, that is something we do quickly. Any issues that would delay the process are probably more on the tenderers’ side. They may be concerned about whether they have the capability to stand over their tender prices in the current difficult and challenging inflation environment. The important point I was making earlier is that the OGP has updated the contractual arrangements in the context of public works contracts and put a co-operational framework in place in respect of dealing with inflation on existing projects. This all helps to create a better climate and conditions to enable contractors and tenderers to stand over their prices.

Deputy Colm Burke

I will move on to issues in planning. I was involved in-----

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I am sorry, just to add to the point I made, one of the things I am conscious of, and what I have done as the head of the planning and building unit to improve delivery, has been putting in place several frameworks of contractors and design teams and strengthening and broadening those. Those all help to reduce the lead-in period from a procurement perspective and, ultimately, to get projects to the stage where work is carried out on-site quickly. Our track record in respect of delivery, with nearly 700 projects having been completed the last three years, is the evidence of this.

Deputy Colm Burke

Regarding the current amount the Department is paying to rent premises, what kind of figure are we talking about in this regard? How far has that changed? The Department has undertaken a major programme to move away from renting prefabs and premises. What kind of amount are we currently paying in this context? What is the target to reduce this figure further over the next three to four years?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

On rented prefabs, as an example, we provided a report to this committee on that aspect and we did a review of it last year. We set out a list of 396 schools that had rented prefabs at the start of 2021. That equates to about 10% of schools overall. We then did a review at the end of 2021. Over the course of that year, about 12% of those rentals had ceased. We had building projects in train for about 80% of those schools and we were working through the balance in respect of a delivery mechanism.

Deputy Colm Burke

In two years’ time, will that figure be reduced substantially?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

If we look at the rental budget, which is around €29 million or €30 million, that sort of order of expenditure, that represents less than 4% of our overall expenditure. That figure has come down significantly from when it peaked in 2008 at around 8%. Therefore, in respect of temporary accommodation and when it might be needed, and the pressure points in that regard, this might be dictated more by the demographics and the flow of demographics. As I said earlier-----

Deputy Colm Burke

It would also be dictated by long-term planning. If the Department undertook long-term planning, then the need for rentals would not arise.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

It is a combination of both. Demographics feed into this issue, as does planning. Regarding planning and delivery, this is not just about planning. We have delivered nearly 700 projects in the last three years.

Deputy Colm Burke

Turning to places for children with additional educational needs, many families in my constituency of Cork North-Central have not got places for their children. Has there been engagement with schools in Cork city, and especially in the Glanmire and Blarney area, to ensure that every child will have a place on 1 September? Is the Department satisfied that enough work has been done on this area?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

I ask Ms Mannion to come in on this issue. Mr. Loftus can then add anything he may wish to say about the construction side.

Ms Martina Mannion

The position is that the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, has advised the Department that there are sufficient school places for children with special educational needs across the country and that the challenge we are dealing with now relates to Dublin. We have made additional provision available.

I previously gave figures relating to special classes at primary and post-primary level in Cork. There is-----

Deputy Colm Burke

Families are still coming to me who say that, as of today, they do not have a place for September.

Ms Martina Mannion

The NCSE is aware of any child who needs a school placement. It is, and has been, working with the schools and it is satisfied the provision that is available in Cork is sufficient to meet the needs of children in Cork at primary and post-primary level. The particular challenge we faced in Cork in the past two years related to special schools. As I said, we have opened a new special school in Carrigaline and we are opening another new special school in Rochestown later on this year. The particular challenge was at special school level but we are satisfied the work we have done already this year-----

Deputy Colm Burke

If I come back to the Department of Education next week regarding people who do not have a place, who do I contact in that scenario?

Ms Martina Mannion

The NCSE is a statutory body and its function is to support families and children to access school placements. It is made up of a team of SENOs who are locally based in individual areas. The SENOs work with schools and individual families to secure placements. Overall, the information provided by the NCSE is that there are sufficient class places at primary and post-primary level in Cork to meet the needs of children who require a placement for September 2022.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I convey my best wishes to Ms McNally. I hope she recovers soon. It is interesting we seem to be doing so much regarding school placement shortages and yet we are still short of school places every year, year-on-year, in Wexford.

I will direct a question, probably to Mr. Loftus, regarding the acquisition of school sites. To what extent is the Department's choice of suitable sites limited or restricted by prior zoning decisions in a county development plan?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

Mr. Loftus is the man on site acquisition, forward planning and the planning process. I will ask him to answer the Deputy's question.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

We work very closely and collaboratively with local authorities on school site requirements. We do that at the strategic level in terms of development plans, spatial strategies and all of that. At the individual level, where there is individual-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Does the Department make submissions to the county? Did it make one in respect of the Wexford county development plan, which closed recently?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

We make submissions nationally across all development plans. I assume we made one to Wexford but we can confirm that.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I ask Mr. Loftus to do that please. The question I am asking relates to zoned lands being for educational purposes only. Does that pose a problem for the Department as regards the cost of the site or the potential restrictions? Does that pose a problem for the Department?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

To take a step back, when we look at demographics and what is needed, and we do our analysis and engage with stakeholders locally to get a local picture, we first look to see what the capacity of existing schools is and whether extensions of existing schools can be done to maximise existing sites. On new sites and new schools, in essence, we look at the opportunities in terms of any sites that are reserved zoned. Equally, there might be other sites that are available if needed as well.

Deputy Verona Murphy

The question is whether it poses a problem. Has the Department come up against great difficulties at times?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

When we look at new schools and timelines around them, the two key parameters I look at are, first, site acquisition and, second, planning permission. These are two key pinch points-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

They are generally dictated by the county development plan.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

To a degree, yes.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Has the Department come up against problems in that regard?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

We generally try to be in solutions mode and to work closely with people. We are just one of the parties that feed into statutory plans.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Is that a "Yes" or "No"? Has the Department come up against problems due to pre-ordained, designated sites for education in county development plans, whereby servicing and all those costs are pre-determined for it? Are there problems? Is it a problem?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I will put it this way. My life is not perfect. There are challenges to be managed. We work through solutions.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Right. I would say the answer is "Yes", to be fair.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes.

Deputy Verona Murphy

We could continue to work on that for sure. I ask for a brief answer to this. When the Department looks for sites for schools, is it still of the opinion that the site should encompass a playing pitch? It appears to me the policy in recent years has been tarmac courts. What is combined with the site? What is the requirement?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

We have our guideline on size. It is 2 to 5 acres at primary and 8 to 11 acres at post-primary level. That gives us a general picture. That is a guideline but we have to adjust it, where needed, to meet the particular requirements. For argument's sake, when we look at a 1,000-pupil school, that is a big building of some 10,000 sq. m or 11,000 sq. m., if we put a four-classroom special needs unit in with that. It is quite a big entity. We put in ball courts and then it is about what the available area is. If there is an area there, it is left as a grass area.

Deputy Verona Murphy

It is not pre-ordained. It can be adjusted to suit the requirements.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

It can be adjusted.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I am sorry. I am looking at the clock and I have a very important question to ask regarding Delivering Equality of Opportunity in Schools, DEIS. I ask Mr. O'Leary who I might be guided towards as regards DEIS status.

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

Ms Mannion might, in the first instance, be able to come back to the Deputy.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I will ask Ms Mannion on what basis postcodes deliver DEIS schools. Why are they a requirement now?

Ms Martina Mannion

The process by which schools are supported into the DEIS process involves an algorithm that effectively identifies a number of factors. Postcode is one factor that feeds into the system. It feeds into that part of the system that identifies the HP index, which identifies deprivation within an area. The system is configured such that information which is unique to each child is fed into the system. That information in turn allows us to identify where there are particular challenges. It includes, for instance, information relating to unemployment. In the current iteration of the data programme, we included information on where there was homelessness and other factors that we felt-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

I assume if someone is homeless, he or she does not have a postcode.

Ms Martina Mannion

We used information on the areas that were providing accommodation for-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

It is a very simple question. If the Department is now using postcodes to identify whether a school should be given DEIS status, how does that identify whether the resident in a postcode owns the property, is a housing assistance payment, HAP, tenant, or in receipt of social welfare? In those cases, the Department's algorithm is not working because I know of a number of schools where DEIS status should absolutely be applied and is not. They have failed in appeals. As Deputy O'Connor said earlier, I suggest our system is badly flawed and our children will suffer greatly because of it. Does Ms Mannion agree with that? Does she believe she is happy with how DEIS status is determined?

Ms Martina Mannion

In any system that relies on a number of complex factors to determine an outcome, it will obviously be difficult when schools potentially feel they would benefit from being in the DEIS system with the supports that provides.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Does Ms Mannion appreciate that the schools, and the principals within those schools, are best placed to predetermine whether they require DEIS status?

We are pitting children against children here. Asking a school to provide a postcode as a methodology to determine disadvantaged status is outrageous. I am not saying it is the witnesses' fault but they can surely agree that it is outrageous. I know of a number of unsuccessful appeals and the matter makes no sense whatsoever. I will ask for this committee to recommend a complete review of all the schools that have not been given DEIS status. I will want to see, transparently and exactly, how it was determined that one school did not receive it while another school in the same district was given the status.

Ms Martina Mannion

Of course we understand that schools, school leaders and families in those areas would wish to be included in DEIS, but in order to have a transparent process-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

It is not transparent. Can Ms Mannion determine from a postcode whether the tenant or household is in receipt of social welfare? If she can, it is a breach of GDPR too.

Ms Martina Mannion

The information on postcodes is entered by the school, at school level, for individual children with the consent of parents.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Is it not correct that the Department is only given the postcode?

Ms Martina Mannion

There is further information. The DEIS system is not entirely dependent on a postcode.

Chairman

The Deputy's time is up.

Deputy Verona Murphy

This is really serious.

Chairman

There can be a brief answer. The Deputy can come back in later.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I will come back in. Rather than the answer, I would like to point out that there is a school in a certain part of Wexford - I will not announce where - which did not want DEIS status but received it because it did what it was obliged to do with regard to the DEIS status allocation. It filled out the forms. It received DEIS status but does not want it, although it is not giving the status back. A school that wants and badly needs the status did not get it. It appealed the decision and still did not get the status. Something is very wrong. I will have to take up the matter again.

Chairman

Later in the meeting, can we get some clarification of how DEIS status is measured?

Deputy Verona Murphy

We would need two days.

Chairman

There used to be a statistics company called Gamma that did it. Is it still around?

Ms Martina Mannion

I accept that the DEIS process is complex. We are happy to provide a detailed response to the committee on how DEIS status is calculated.

Deputy Verona Murphy

For the benefit of the committee, I understand how it is allocated. I am telling Ms Mannion that it does not work. It is not correct. We need to look at the system because it does not allocate DEIS status to where it is required.

Chairman

Are data from the Department of Social Protection used? I do not mean data about individual houses but about a general area. Back in the 1990s, there was a company called Gamma from which one could get the statistical profile of an area, how many people were unemployed, how many people were in rented accommodation, and so on. Is that the case?

Ms Martina Mannion

The HP index which is used in this circumstance is used across a number of Departments.

Chairman

It is information from various Departments.

Ms Martina Mannion

No. It does not come from individual Departments. It is a model which is used across government to identify disadvantage. This feeds into a complex process.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Does Ms Mannion have figures for the number of appeals?

Chairman

Does Ms Mannion have that figure?

Ms Martina Mannion

I understand Ms Deirdre Shanley, who is on the call, can provide that information.

Chairman

I will bring the Deputy back in later in the meeting.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Can the committee get a breakdown of that information in writing?

Chairman

Can we get a detailed note of how DEIS status is assessed overall? There are anomalies in it. Like everything, it is good when it works. By and large, it works, but there will be problems with it.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I welcome our witnesses. I send my best wishes to the Secretary General. I will start with the school building programme. I heard Mr. Loftus say that 700 active sites had been acquired since 2021. Is that correct?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

That is incorrect. Some 700 school building projects were delivered in the period from 2018 to 2021. Those projects are mainly at existing schools, with some at new schools.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Will Mr. Loftus outline for the committee the number of stages of acquisition, planning and, ultimately, construction? How many stages are there from site acquisition through to construction?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

There are five stages. We take a structured approach, in line with the public spending code, to the appraisal, design, tendering and construction. The value of that structured approach means that projects are well-designed and well-developed before going to tender and construction. For the benefit of the committee, we have recently done a review of projects that have a contract price, which is the tender price, to see how that compares with the final account. That can be an indication of what particular issues might have arisen on-site. Across a large number of projects-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

That may be a matter for another question.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

It is relevant in the context of the structured approach.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

All I wanted to know was the number of stages. Mr. Loftus referred to five stages. Is that for acquisition and construction or acquisition and planning?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Site acquisition is a stage in itself. I am talking about the design stages. Stage 1 is preliminary design, stage 2 is developed design, stage 3 is detailed design, stage 4 is tendering and stage 5 is construction.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

At times, there does not appear to be a continued focus on the various stages. Other Deputies have raised issues in their constituencies. I represent Dún Laoghaire and I am aware of a particular school which has been in prefabricated units on-site since 2005. The State pays for the upkeep and maintenance of the prefabs annually. About three years ago, one of the prefabs was condemned. We thought that was wonderful because the prefabs would be moved, but instead the State purchased or rented another prefab. The school has been on this temporary site for about 27 years, although the Department owns it. Mr. Loftus outlined five stages, which sound quite simple, but I know it is complex. The Department probably selects land owned by the council or State land first and then if that is not available, it seeks to acquire land, if possible. I am sure Mr. Loftus will agree that 27 years is a long time to spend in prefabs. It has an impact on the school, although not on the quality of education, which is excellent. It has an impact when people visit it. When will the prefabs be replaced or when will there be a permanent building? I will come back to that in a second.

The Department had capital expenditure of €4.1 billion in 2021. Some €165 million was spent on temporary accommodation, according to the briefing note supplied to us. Some €29.4 million was spent on renting temporary accommodation. Does €165 million include the €29.4 million or is that in addition to it? I know those are not all prefabs and that temporary accommodation could include other things. Do the witnesses have a figure for how much the Department spent on prefabricated units in the period we are discussing, which is 2021? Does the €165 million for temporary accommodation include the €29.4 million for temporary rental accommodation?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Our annual spend on rentals is about €29 million. It is consistently around that level over the years. An area I have looked at as head of the planning and building unit is broadening out our different delivery mechanisms to maximise the roll-out of the national development plan. Part and parcel of that was looking at modular accommodation and the creation of a modular accommodation framework. That is very positive from the climate agenda because it works off a decarbonised heating strategy. One variation of that which we put in place this year was a timber-frame modular framework. When looking at the spend, the recurring annual spend is the €29 million and the investment that we put into modular accommodation or other delivery projects is more general investment. The modular accommodation has a 60-year lifespan.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I appreciate that. Of the €29.4 million, I am not saying that all of that is in respect of prefabricated units that are there for long-term accommodation but how much of it is reoccurring? I mean prefabricated units that are being used on a continuous basis as either a school or an extension to a school. Does the Department have that figure?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

The figure evolves. It is a recurring overall national amount.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I figured that.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

As I said earlier, we did a review of 396 projects that were in rented prefabs at the start of 2021. Some 12% of those schools were no longer in prefabs at the end of 2021 and we had a building pipeline for 80% of the remainder in terms of a pathway forward. There will be new projects coming into the pipeline too but in the main, with the way the demographics have evolved, I would see fewer new ones coming into rentals. My approach would be more to purchase modular accommodation and for that to become a solution and more the norm.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I appreciate that. That review is helpful and it is good to know it has been done, particularly from the perspective of this committee. What about the 8% of that figure? Where do those schools stand?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

We are engaging with those schools to see what the pathway forward is for them and whether they need a building project solution or whether the demographics are evolving in those areas in relation to those schools. In terms of forward planning, we have good capacity for primary and post-primary levels. At post-primary level nationally, we have around 20,000 school places as capacity in the system and at primary level, we have capacity of the order of 50,000 school places in existing classrooms and other spare classrooms too. Earlier, we used Dublin as an example of an area under pressure. We have primary schools with about 80 spare classrooms. Those are the areas that we are looking at in the context of reconfiguration for special classes or if the Government decides to change the pupil-teacher ratio or whatever.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

That is all very important. The demographics of those areas can speak to why there is spare capacity. I ask the Department to look at the building I mentioned from 2005 and follow up with a detailed note please. The roll number is 20056P.

Finally, there is a small extension that began in a school with the roll number 19258U. It started in August 2019. It is overdue by 12 to 14 months. The school has tried to engage with the Department and the contractor. Principals are becoming project managers here. Many of them do not have the time, resources or the skill set to do this. Yet the Department is paying a contractor to do work but the contractor is not on site. In such instances, what can the Department do to ensure the contract is done and dusted and that ultimately kids can go into that classroom? What happens then?

Chairman

Briefly.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I thank the Chair. I might come back in.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

For every building project there is professional support available to schools. It should not necessarily fall on the head of a school principal. There is a design team there and its job is to manage the delivery. One thing I have done as part of reforming how we do our business and setting us up more strategically to do that is to put in professional management supports. We put them into education and training boards. They are a good support for delivering projects both inside and outside of the education and training board sector. There are also buildings officers in other key stakeholders too. There are a lot of professional supports being put in there to help, streamline and support delivery. If there is a particular case we will certainly look into it and get back to the Deputy.

Chairman

Deputy Dillon is next and after that we will have a short break.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I welcome our guests and wish the Secretary General the very best in her recovery. On the calculated grades scheme, in the 2020 appropriation accounts the expenditure could not be quantified at that time. There have been a number of judicial review proceedings since then and there have been court rulings on the main challenges to the scheme. Will the officials provide some background to the procurement of the system advisor for the calculated scheme?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

I might ask the chief inspector to start for us by talking about Polymetrika International's services and how it worked. Dr. Hislop can add to that regarding the subsequent litigation and the overall process to provide some context for the Deputy.

Dr. Harold Hislop

The calculated grade system was put in place in 2020. It involved work that had to be done within the Department of Education because it could not be carried out by the State Examinations Commission, SEC, as it had not legal authority to carry out the work. An executive office, using the executive powers of the Minister was established within the Department. Staff from various parts of the Department and the SEC were seconded into the calculated grades executive office and were devoted to it. Work was contracted to a company, Polymetrika International, based in Canada. That company had helped in the initial stages with research and development of the ideas of how a calculated grades system could operate. We were in entirely uncharted territory. We had 60,000 students for whom we could not run a leaving certificate. There was a great deal of work to be done on how it would be possible to create grades that would be fair to those students and their ability over the time that they had studied.

Deputy Alan Dillon

What was the total expenditure by the Department on calculated grades?

Dr. Harold Hislop

In respect of the calculated grades executive office and the work that went on around it, in 2020 €3.118 million was spent on the project.

Deputy Alan Dillon

And in terms of the leaving certificate?

Dr. Harold Hislop

In 2021 and 2022, a further €1.086 million and €1.039 million, respectively, were spent. Therefore the total cost in respect of all that work was €5.245 million.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Have the legal challenges related to the calculated grade schemes been completed?

Dr. Harold Hislop

Yes. All of the legal challenges have been concluded about the calculated grades processes.

We can provide the committee details, if it so wishes.

Deputy Alan Dillon

In terms of the cost to the Department, have the compensation and legal fees been quantified?

Dr. Harold Hislop

Yes. No legal costs were paid in 2020, which was the year of the calculated grades, because the cases that arose were still ongoing in the courts. In 2021, the total payment for legal costs was €991,783. In 2022, €1.036 million was paid.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Is that compensation or legal costs?

Dr. Harold Hislop

It comprises the Department’s legal costs in defending the cases and settling the legal costs of litigants. I should also say that, in 2021 and 2022, there was an additional €100,000 for specialist advice from an expert during the court cases.

Deputy Alan Dillon

The cases have all been completed.

Dr. Harold Hislop

Yes. They were concluded as early as possible. In some cases, the costs of the litigants were met by the Department because they had raised issues of national importance.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I appreciate that. I will move on to the committee’s recommendations, made following the Department’s most recent visit to us, concerning the development of an electronic payroll system. Has the Department promoted the uptake of the digital postbox for online access to payslips? How does that stand?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

I will ask Ms McDonnell, our head of major operations, to provide information on the payslips issue.

Ms Deirdre McDonnell

We are piloting the digital postbox at the moment. It is being developed by the Office of the Government Chief Information Officer, OGCIO, as a service that can be used by anyone who is registered with MyGovID. People can choose the area of the public sector from which they want to receive correspondence. We are running a small pilot, but we need to do more testing in terms of the volume of payslips we will have to transfer. We are working through those issues with the OGCIO and the supplier of the system. We will also be working on communications with our payees in terms of how they register and access the service once we are ready to roll it out.

Deputy Alan Dillon

There are still physical payslips at present.

Ms Deirdre McDonnell

Yes.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Will there be a hybrid system where people can opt in or will it be-----

Ms Deirdre McDonnell

At the moment, it will be an opt-in system.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Is there a timeline for that?

Ms Deirdre McDonnell

We would like to have the digital postbox service available to everyone this later year. We are still testing, but that is the plan. People can opt in on an ongoing basis once the system is live.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I thank Ms McDonnell. My next question is on the full-time clerk of works for large-scale capital projects and ensuring suitably qualified persons, for example, engineers, are on site to manage such projects. Where is the Department in implementing this recommendation, which was made at the previous committee meeting?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

Mr. Loftus will be able to provide the up-to-date situation relating to the clerk of works and the availability of people on site.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

That recommendation has been implemented. We have had clerks of works on our large-scale projects since 2017.

Deputy Alan Dillon

When Mr. Loftus refers to large-scale projects, does he mean those of a certain valuation? What does the Department define as large, medium and small?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

We do not totally define them by money. It can depend on the scope of the works and the type of project. Purely as a guide, large-scale projects would be those valued at €3 million or more. They are significant enough.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Are the clerks of works responsible to the Department of Education for inspections and oversight? What is the reporting system?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

The role of a clerk of works is to support the employer’s representative, ER, function. That function is typically carried out by the architect. The clerk of works is a support role because the clerk is there on a full-time basis whereas an architect might only visit the site every week or so. The clerk is able to provide records and clarify issues or queries that an architect might have about the project.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I have a final question. Regarding temporary accommodation and modular unit systems, I am familiar with the delivery of a large-scale modular system in Mayo. In terms of planning, the project to complete the construction phase seems a long way off. According to a response to a parliamentary question, a demographic analysis of the construction element was being undertaken even though the project had been approved. I am trying to get an understanding of a project’s life cycle. My colleagues have already discussed this, but it would be useful if the committee was given an understanding of durations, project stages and what is required. Principals are asking us questions because they have no connection with the Department. There is a gap, so I ask the witnesses to provide this information when they have the time.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Certainly. We can examine that. We are happy to provide information for the committee. Deputy O’Connor raised a similar issue. We can provide a written update on the matter to the committee.

Chairman

I thank the witnesses. We will suspend for ten minutes.

Sitting suspended at 11.07 a.m. and resumed at 11.16 a.m.

Chairman

The next speaker is Deputy Catherine Murphy.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I welcome the witnesses. We have a unique system of education in this country in that we do not have a national system with clear lines of ownership. What does the State own? I know we pay money to build schools but do we have a comprehensive valuation of estates, ownership and leases? What do we actually own and where can that information be found?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

It is fair to say that the Irish system has evolved over the years to reflect different things that have happened in the country over the past 190-plus years.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I remind Mr. O'Leary that I have very limited time.

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

Apologies. In terms of the treatment of the assets and what we own, I ask Mr. Loftus to come in on that, after which I might ask Mr. Whelan to comment as well.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I do not want all my time used up on this as I have other questions to ask.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I will give the Deputy a high-level overview of ownership of the schools estate. Approximately 87% of it is patron trustee-owned, 9% is Minister-owned and 4% is ETB-owned.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

In the case of the 87%, if the State has constructed those schools and the patron owns them, in a situation where there is a declining demographic and not all the schools are needed, who sells them and who benefits from the sale?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

It is the patron or trustee, which could be a diocesan trust or a general trust, that owns the school. Those trusts are typically set up as a charity and the objects of that charity would ultimately determine how sale proceeds and so on can be used. From the perspective of the Department and the Minister, we are looking at how we can ensure that where there is a need for a school, that a building that is sold will be retained as a school. That is the focus for us.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Can the witnesses give us some documentation showing details of assets in respect of which public funding has been given and how that funding is secured? I also want to know where we are at in terms of lease agreements concluding. A note on that would be useful because we do not have time today to go through it in the kind of detail that is needed. We may well have to come back to it.

Can Mr. Loftus also include - where there have been schools that have been sold, let us say, in the past ten years - who benefited?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

We can do that. To be honest, typically, and I am conscious of the Deputy's time, it is very much a case of small rural schools in the main, and just a handful in any given year.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

They tend to feature on television programmes where there is a transformation or something.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

The asset can generally be used then for local community usage and things like that.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

That can be a very good use as well.

We all have concentrated on our own areas, and possibly because it is easier to describe things. Kildare - I represent part of it - doubled in population between the 1970s and the 1990s and it doubled in population again between the 1990s and now. According to the Irish National Teachers' Organisation, INTO, the largest class sizes in the country are in Kildare. It is a sizeable population and had the biggest number of commencement notices of any county last year. The trend is set to continue. As a consequence, education will be a big feature.

I will pick a few things out, where some things are done well and the schools are delivered. There is a lot of stuff that there are queries on. I would like to ask Mr. Loftus about Magee Barracks, for example, in Kildare town, which was sold by the Department of Defence for €8 million. The land was then rezoned for housing. Then the Department of Education purchased a site at an inflated price for the construction of a school. Putting it benignly, that seems to be the wrong, and more expensive, way to do things. Given the profile of a county that is growing in population, why was it not foreseen that there would be a need for a school and this was a potential site?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I am conscious I am head of the planning and building unit since October 2017 and I cannot necessarily know the history of life that went on before. As a general comment, the school that is going in there, which is the Curragh Post-Primary School, is being done as part of a regional solution. It is not necessarily the case that that particular school at that particular site is serving that particular town. That is an important point to make.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

If Mr. Loftus cannot answer me about that particular school, I would like to get an answer or a note on that because I am finding it difficult to get information by way of parliamentary question. However, that, effectively, is what has happened.

I would like to ask Mr. Loftus about another one where there was a problem. It was on the building programme and should have commenced in 2018. I refer to the Mercy Convent in Naas. A 24-classroom school, it is not completed yet because we have gone to stage 6 as opposed to stage 5. Stage 6 is when one's contractor terminates and one has to re-tender. That is my description of it anyway. There will be additional costs associated with that. I would like to know why the contract was terminated. It is important that we understand why this happened so that it does not happen again. There would have been additional costs in that there was security on the site on a permanent basis. There were temporary buildings put in for a protracted period of time because the pupils were there and required the accommodation. At one point, there were subcontractors shut out of the site. Obviously, there would be an additional cost associated with that because they could not get their plant and equipment. It is to go back to tender now. It certainly will not be completed until there is a tender and somebody gets back in on the site. It is unlikely to be completed this year. It should have commenced in 2018. One would nearly build the children's hospital in the time that it will take to build this particular school. Can Mr. Loftus give us some indication of how one prevents that kind of, not unique but unusual, thing happening where it will add to the cost and create chaos? There are children who have gone through their entire schooling in temporary accommodation because of what has happened there. Does Mr. Loftus know what happened there?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

The Deputy is correct that the situation is not unique but I would say it is very unusual. The issue there relates to the contractor. I suppose what one has with a contractor, and a tendering, is the contractor committing on a contractual duty to deliver a project to the standard required within a set timeframe and that was not being delivered. That would be the context for the termination there. To follow procurement rules, that requires a re-tendering and that is the issue that has led to the delay in this case.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Was there a project management issue here?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I would not necessarily think so but, if we are coming back to the Deputy with a note, we can clarify that. I suppose what one has there is a design team. An architect would be the lead on that. He or she would be the employer's representative. The architect's job would be to make sure that the contractor is delivering on its contractual obligations. The judgment and assessment that was done there was that a termination was appropriate.

Chairman

We will come back to it.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I will come back.

Chairman

We will come back for a second, and possibly a third, round.

There are some questions I myself have on the clerk of works issue at the hearing in October 2020. It is well-established now that the problems that arose in large building projects in the eight or ten years before that arose, were not - the design of the building was not changed - because the architect fell down but because there was no supervision from the employer's representative - in other words, the Department - on site. One of the major problems was simply down to the wall-ties not being dropped on the concrete blocks when the two sets of walls were being constructed. I note now that the Department has committed to, and confirmed that there is, a clerk of works on every large project site and I welcome that. Generally, is the clerk of works an employee of the Department? I want to keep the questions short.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes. I am conscious one has to be brief but I am also conscious that, in making any comment on the issues in relation to the WBS schools and schools remediation programme, we are currently before the courts on that. I have to be very careful in terms of getting into any detail on that issue and any commentary.

Chairman

Mr. Loftus responded, "Yes." I am just asking about it.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

It is a current case up before the courts, as recently as last week.

Chairman

Okay.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I am just very conscious of that. I suppose, as a general comment, the contractual responsibility to deliver on the contractual obligation in terms of the wall-ties rests with the contractor.

Chairman

No, no. Hold on a second. There is a contractor engaged. There is a design team or project team. I understand all that, but that was not where the problem was arising. The problem was arising because, to put it straight, there was not somebody there on behalf of the taxpayer or the Department. I mentioned that here two years ago. It may seem like an old-fashioned suggestion but it seems like a common sense suggestion to me that there would be a clerk of works. Typically, the clerk of works would not have gone through university. The person might originally have been a carpenter. Most of them were carpenters.

What I want to clarify is a simple straightforward question about the Department's man or woman on site. Is that correct? Are they direct employees of the Department, "Yes" or "No"?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

No. They are not direct employees of the Department. They are employees of the design team - the employer's representative in that scenario or the project management company.

Chairman

That is okay. That is straightforward. That is welcome. That clarifies that.

On small schools, I have a bit of a concern. I read the material in respect of the issues we raised two years ago. It is a bit flaky in terms of what happens with the smaller schools. Mr. Loftus will appreciate that with smaller schools, you will not have a clerk of works standing on the site all day. He clarified that in the context of larger projects, clerks of works are present the whole time, which is welcome. With a smaller school, however, do they visit regularly, maybe weekly? Are the visits unannounced? Give a brief answer to that.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I suppose the smaller-----

Chairman

To make sure that the wall tiles are being put up and things of that nature.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes. Again, I am just conscious of the legal case before the courts.

Chairman

All right.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I was in the witness box in relation to that.

Chairman

Move away from the wall tiles in that case.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes. I am very conscious of that-----

Chairman

I know.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

-----because it is a live case at the moment. With the clerk of works, it sort of depends what you regard as smaller-scale projects. Currently, for projects of the order of €3 million or thereabouts, our approach is to have a clerk of works and-----

Chairman

One last thing. I attended the opening at Trumera the other day. It is a fantastic job, and well done to everyone involved. It is a very small school - probably the smallest one that will be opened this year - and it looks fantastic. Would a clerk of works have been visiting that site regularly? I am just trying to get an indication here that, from a public accounts point of view, the interests of the taxpayer and the State are being protected.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes. Equally, that is part of our quality assurance arrangements. As a wider comment on clerks of works, they can be hard to get. It is something we would be looking at-----

Chairman

Is Mr. Loftus saying that they might not be called in on smaller projects?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

It depends. For projects that are of the order of €3 million or €3.5 million-----

Chairman

I am talking about smaller projects. There are a couple of them. There is one coming through, I hope, for Kolbe Special School in Portlaoise or the likes of Trumera National School. Say it is project valued at €2 million. Does a clerk of works call? I am trying to get this answer out of Mr. Loftus. Does a clerk of works call, or who is there? Who protects the taxpayer's interest?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

The employer's representative architect and their design team are the ones who would deal with the smaller ones. Some of those also have a project manager. That can be part of the service package.

Chairman

Do they pop in unannounced?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes, the employer's representative architect does that.

Chairman

That is okay.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

At any given point we have 250 projects on-site. We do not have clerks of works able to go to each and every one of those every single week-----

Chairman

I accept that.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

-----but the general point I was going to make is a clerk of works can be a rare enough species, particularly a good clerk of works. One of the things I am conscious of in the more complex buildings we have - a new 1,000-pupil school can be a very complex building - is that we might be moving more into the sphere of maybe a resident engineer as distinct from a clerk of works, just given the increased complexity there can be in large-scale buildings.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Loftus for that answer.

On school estates, Mr. Loftus mentioned that 87% of schools - I see it in the documentation - are owned by the Department. Are the ETB schools accounted for in that 87%? That is "Yes" or "No".

Mr. Hubert Loftus

No. The 87% is patron- or trustee-owned-----

Chairman

My apologies.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

-----9% are owned by the Minister and the ETB is separate at 4%.

Chairman

It is 4%.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Thereabouts.

Chairman

I would have thought ownership by the ETBs was far higher than that. Of the ones that are-----

Mr. Hubert Loftus

The 4% relates to 4,000 schools, so-----

Chairman

All right.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

The ETBs that own the post-primary cohort, when you average that out over 4,000 schools, that is how that percentage is reached.

Chairman

Eighty seven per cent is a high figure - it was over 90% a few years ago - for schools not owned by the Department. A decade ago, it was well over 90%. Mr. Loftus mentioned a charity. There is a school in Ballyroan that the parish has handed to the community. That is fantastic, but the parish could have done something else with it. There is a very progressive priest in the area, Fr. Paddy Byrne, and it has gone over to the local community for their use, which is fantastic. Mr. Loftus mentioned a charity. What way does that work? Is each school-----

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Each school would be a registered charity.

Chairman

All right.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Equally-----

Chairman

Who is the patron typically? Is it the Protestant bishop or the Catholic bishop?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes, and more often than not the actual legal trust that owns it would typically be a charity as well. Anything where a building, site or property that is no longer required for school use, maybe in the rural Ireland scenario of demographics-----

Chairman

In an urban area, you might have a school being replaced because there is a new one being built down the road. That is being sold. The original site was owned by the parish. Say it is sold for €200,000. What happens to that?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I suppose the charity, the legal entity that owns that building, receives that.

Chairman

Hold on a second. If the State built the school in the 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s or 1980s, is there a clawback for the State when it is sold?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

The clawback reflects the level of investment that might have been in the school over the years.

Chairman

There is a clawback.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes, but, obviously, in scenarios where there is a building coming to the end of its natural life or where a school is no longer required - and that is more typically the rural school - typically, they would not have received significant investment in modern times, so they would necessarily be a particular issue there. I look at those buildings from two perspectives. One, mentioned earlier, is about demographic projections and the 2040 national planning framework-----

Chairman

I know all that.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

-----and what is the long-term. The second point where it can be relevant as well is about how we as a Department are going to have a big programme of work from a climate action perspective in terms of the climate agenda and modernising the school estate from a renewable perspective.

Chairman

I am familiar with that because there is one happening in my constituency.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

The point is that the older school, albeit not required for demographics, can be a useful decant facility for a school which can help avoid---

Chairman

For a changeover, yes.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

-----the prefab issue and things like that. That is just an important point to make.

Chairman

Who is dealing with school transport?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

One of my colleagues online is probably the best person. If the Chairman frames the question we will-----

Chairman

I will. The spending on this is €225 million for 2020. There is obviously a reduction there because of Covid but it is working out at around €250 per year. I just want a brief answer. What are the implications of the announcement it is going to be free? Were the officials aware of this before the announcement? Is the Department going to be able to be successful enough with its submission to make up that shortfall? Just a brief answer to that please.

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

I thank the Chairman. I ask my colleague, Ms Aoife Conduit, who is joining us online, if she is able to unmute herself and come in to answer that question.

Ms Aoife Conduit

I thank the Chairman. Just to confirm that, yes, the funding to make up for the fees that will be forgone in the suspension of fees for the 2022-23 school year has been agreed with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. It amounts to €17.5 million.

Chairman

Were the officials aware of it before the announcement?

Ms Aoife Conduit

Before the announcement, yes.

Chairman

Was Ms Conduit, as the official over this section, aware of this?

Ms Aoife Conduit

Yes, I was involved in-----

Chairman

Okay.

Ms Aoife Conduit

-----liaising with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform on the cost of waiving the fees.

Chairman

Thanks for that. By and large the scheme works very well. There are problems with it from time to time, and especially this time of the year. Inevitably, some parents will come to us, or schools will come to us and I want to raise this with the officials. I spent the morning of last Monday week trying to get through to the school transport section in the Department in Tullamore or trying to speak with a human being, and I failed. I want to address this with the officials. If we go back ten years ago, I would probably have been able to phone somebody on the couple of occasions every year when there were problems.

That is not possible now. All of the phones ring out. If people are working from home and they are supposed to be able to take calls, if they are not connected up by phone, they cannot work from home. I know people who are working from home, such as my sister-in-law. When the phone rings in her office, it rings twice and goes directly to her mobile phone. She can work two days a week at home. The point I am making is that there is no answering service and no way of leaving a message. I cannot get a name of anybody. I appeal to Department officials, on foot of what I am raising, to give me a name and phone number of somebody. If they cannot do it now, maybe one of them can do it after the meeting. I am raising it here because I am at my wits' end with it.

We talked about demographics. The demographic situation in the Portlaoise area, as Mr. Loftus would know, is that the population is increasing. Great work is being done providing new schools. There is still a need for new school buildings, for example at Kolbe Special School. There is a situation where there are no primary places. Children from a number of different households and backgrounds, including foreign nationals and some Traveller children, are affected. There are 21 children who need a bus to go Barnashrone National School. The principal and I were told that each one of those has been informed they have to go through a section 29 appeal. It will take much time to work its way through, and these are people whose first language is not English. I have a copy of a letter from the three primary schools in Portlaoise town that states they are full and have no spaces. Barnashrone National School is a DEIS school. It is suitable for these students. It is in the Mountmellick area. As it happens, it is only about 4 miles out the road and about 3 miles from where I live. It has the space and it is a wonderful school. If the school inspector looks at it, he or she will see it is a school that has performed very well. As a DEIS school, it has taken many children who have certain challenges and it has been very good. That needs to be looked at. If they have to go through a section 29 appeal, surely once the schools in the Portlaoise catchment area have confirmed that there are no spaces, that should be done and dusted.

Ms Aoife Conduit

I am aware of the case. I know that the Chair wrote recently to the Secretary General in respect of this and that we have issued a letter by return.

On the first point the Chair raised, I can only apologise for the customer service if he could not get through on the phone. I can certainly provide him with a phone number and the name of an official he could contact directly.

On the particular case, we have written to him clarifying the position. In terms of eligibility, as the Chair knows, eligibility for transport is based on one’s nearest school. After that, it is based on one’s second nearest school and so on. The principal and parents have been advised that there is no requirement for a section 29 process to be undergone. Confirmation from the principals of all the schools between that family and the school they wish to attend will be required to confirm that there are no places available in those schools. That is the position on that. We are happy to follow up with the Chair on that if he requires further clarification.

Chairman

Ms Conduit is clarifying to me that they do not need to go through section 29 appeals.

Ms Aoife Conduit

They do not.

Chairman

That was the initial information we were given. I do not want to be too parochial about it, but I wish to ask a question. There are 21 children concerned here. If Ms Conduit can come back to me with the name and phone number of the contact person in the school transport section in Tullamore, that would be helpful.

I wish to address the assistant secretaries here. I am favour of people working from home. I think it is a good thing for a whole lot of reasons. However, if somebody who has to be available to take a phone call cannot take a phone call at home, then he or she cannot work from home. There cannot be a system like that. There is not an answering service and one cannot leave a voicemail. The whole thing is completely circled. There is a wall that one cannot get through. That is deeply frustrating. We have parents, boards of management and principals coming to us and asking if we can get in contact with somebody. That is a crazy situation and it cannot be tolerated. It is not acceptable. There is close to €9 billion going into the Department every year and if there cannot be somebody to answer a phone in the school transport section, it is totally unacceptable. It is an issue that needs to be addressed.

There are people in the Department who are able to take phone calls and are accessible, whether it is for school principals or a local Deputy or Minister. I just want to make that point; I do not want to labour it.

Now we will have a second round of questions. Mr. O’Leary wishes to respond before the second round begins.

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

I apologise for that. We have arrangements in place in terms of diverting phones for people. Mr. Loftus might want to just come in on the Barnashrone situation.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I wish to add to Ms Conduit’s point. The Chair raised the point. It is very logical to use the capacity in the local school and work that through. The general point I would make is that is the very same approach and logic that we have been using in terms of providing and identifying school accommodation options for all of the Ukrainian children who are in our schools. There are more than 7,000 of them. We set up teams at ETB level with the wider stakeholders as well. We in the planning and building unit provide those teams with all of the capacity information about all of the schools and where the children are enrolled. The scenario the Chair raised, albeit it is a local scenario for him, is the wider concept for us in terms of forward planning to make sure that-----

Chairman

I understand that.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

-----occurs more generally.

Chairman

In the case of Portlaoise, the only space there is in the Gaelscoil. However, Mr. Loftus can understand that some of these children are coming from households where English is not their first language, never mind Gaeilge. It is an immediate situation.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

In addition, school transport solutions did not get worked to facilitate those logically.

Chairman

I acknowledge the good parts that are done. St. Francis Special School has been opened and there is an extension due to it. There is a new building in Trumera. Significant progress has been made in new schools in my constituency. That has been welcome. I have not heard too many problems with the buildings, so somebody is keeping an eye on it at least. I just acknowledge that.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

We are very proud of our team in the planning and building unit and the team that delivered for us.

Chairman

I call Deputy Verona Murphy, who has five minutes.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I wish to just follow up. I was hoping to have a bit longer than that.

Chairman

The Deputy can come back in a third time if she wants to.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Grand. Okay.

Chairman

It is just if someone----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Yes, if anyone else turns up.

Chairman

Yes, if any more turn up, that is the problem.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I just request a breakdown again, on foot on what Deputy Carthy asked for earlier in relation to SNAs and the allocation in the budget. I have looked at the website and I find that we have to do the calculations ourselves. It gives a breakdown county by county. However, for the benefit of the committee, how many SNAs out of the extra 1,165 allocated in the budget have been given roles?

I wish to ask Mr. Loftus a question. On projects in progress, how has he dealt with construction inflation and making sure the developer is viable throughout the construction project? Did he have some built-in mechanism in the contract or has he had to negotiate one on one?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

As I said earlier, it is a challenging inflationary environment.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I know that.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

We are working through that. What has been very helpful for us is the guidance provided by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform in terms of the Office of Government Procurement, OGP. In a sense, that provides a level of comfort for tenderers.

Deputy Verona Murphy

What level? What percentage? I ask Mr. Loftus to the chase because we have no time.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

There are two aspects. One is in terms of new projects being tendered and the way they are managed in terms of construction and inflation, because projects are typically done on a fixed-price basis. That worked well over the past decade. However, given the environment we are in, there is a bit more flexibility as the tenderer is responsible for a certain level of inflation. Then there is hyperinflation-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Can I have a breakdown on that? What is-----

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes, we can do that. Then in terms of-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

No. I am asking what is the percentage that was settled on.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I think it is if it goes beyond 15%. I think that is the figure. However, I will double-check that.

Deputy Verona Murphy

No. If inflation today is around 8% then how does the Department equate that? For instance, the national children's hospital has a built in inflation mechanism of 4% so when inflation goes above that percentage the Government pays.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Has the Department of Education a similar arrangement?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

No. The contractual arrangements for the children's hospital are entirely different from what exists more generally across the public sector. We have the public contract. That is typically fixed price so it would have made no provision for inflation.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Please send the committee a note on the matter as it will benefit us in our analysis.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I am a newly elected Deputy and I have engaged a lot with the special needs and disability sectors. Recently I met the family of two very special needs children, both intellectually and physically, who are now adults and their transition from primary to post-primary education was extremely difficult. In 2001, a fundamental part of their education in terms of the delivery of special needs was the provision of a special needs assistant who worked on a one-on-one basis. When I met the mother of these boys recently her attitude was that in 2011 when one-on-one interaction was taken away it resulted in negative impacts on one of her sons who had fewer requirements then than his brother and would have been capable of holding down a job or living alone. In 2011, the assistance was removed and it has never been put back. Assistance is now provided on a piecemeal basis and the teacher decides what is required and who gets what, which is counterproductive and costs the Exchequer more in the long run. Has the Department of Education carried out a value-for-money analysis, and I hate to use the term "value-for money" in this instance, following removal of that system of special needs education and assistance compared with the current services provided? Does the Department cut ties when special needs children reach 18 years and, therefore, are no longer in the Department's education system?

Ms Martina Mannion

The Deputy has touched on the very important issue of transition, of which the Department is very conscious. We have a number of strategies to support the transitions of children with special education needs. In the first instance, we have a steering group that rotates the Chair between the HSE and the National Council for Special Education, which has at its heart a process to provide access for all school leavers who require specialist support through an appropriate transition programme.

Deputy Verona Murphy

In 2011, the one-on-one SNA was removed and the system changed. Has the Department reviewed or conducted an analysis on whether that was an effective measure in terms of value for money? How effective or ineffective was it in the long run?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

I suggest that the chief inspector comment on that because the chief inspector's report would have covered the teaching and learning in schools, including for children with special educational needs.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is fine.

Dr. Harold Hislop

The Deputy has raised an important issue about the effectiveness of the special needs assistant and the teaching resources for children with special educational needs. International evidence suggests that the best people to work with children with special educational needs are those who are most highly trained and, therefore, the teaching staff so the degree to which one can maximise face-to-fact contact between the student and the teacher is the best way to ensure the best outcomes for the child. That means if one wants to support the child in the longer term, and get the very best outcomes, it is better to put the resources, to a greater extent, into providing teachers, and huge numbers of teachers have been put into the system, rather than into special needs assistants. There are some children who obviously have physical and other needs so a special needs assistant is absolutely vital to them for either toileting or mobility reasons. It is important that the provision of special needs assistants does not get between the teacher and the student. The evidence from a lot of international studies is that special needs assistants or classroom assistants can, in some cases, become a barrier between the teacher and the child. So it is really important that the emphasis is placed on the provision of the teaching, and teaching of a very high skill, for the good long-term outcomes of the child.

The age of the child is relevant as we talk about special needs assistants. Young children often do need a special needs assistant and often benefit from one. For the psychological and long-term well-being of the child, as the children become older many do not want a special needs assistant. If one is not careful in how that is managed, the children feel they are being undermined in their own development and maturity because of a special needs assistant tagging along. It is a really delicate operation to choose when and when not to use the special needs assistant. The very best people to make decisions about that are probably the principal of the school and the teachers involved.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I appreciate that there are international studies. Has a study been carried out in this country?

Dr. Harold Hislop

Yes, we have done one.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Will the Department provide the committee with a copy of the study?

Dr. Harold Hislop

Yes, we can. The NCSE has published some of that data.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Following what has been said, there is no explanation for why the young man I mentioned regressed. In 2011, he was around 12-years-old but he seriously regressed once his SNA was removed, particularly when he was at the point where his potential had been recognised, and that his needs were way fewer than those of his brother so he could have lived on his own and held down a job. Now, having been without an SNA, there is no possibility for him to do either.

Dr. Harold Hislop

Obviously I do not know the details of the case that the Deputy is talking about.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I understand but I had to outline the case. What we are seeing, and certainly what has been explained in all of the schools that I have visited, is that the SNA, and the allocation of an SNA - especially when a SENO is asked for input - concentrates on the physical ability of the child as opposed to the intellectual capability.

Dr. Harold Hislop

That is as it should be because it is the teacher who is responsible for the child's cognitive development, the development of his or her knowledge and the development of wider skills. As I said, there is evidence that when teachers are involved directly as much as possible with the child in the development of his or her intellectual, social and other capacities-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

I appreciate that that might be the case with a lower teacher:pupil ratio. What does the study say about class sizes?

Dr. Harold Hislop

The evidence about class size is----

Deputy Verona Murphy

I mean in relation to this aspect.

Dr. Harold Hislop

Absolutely. That is why class sizes, for instances in special units and special classes, are as small as they are, and allow for that particularly.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I am not talking about actual ASD units but conventional classrooms-----

Dr. Harold Hislop

Yes.

Deputy Verona Murphy

-----where an SNA assists a student, so does not need an actual ASD unit but is in mainstream education in effect. Is Dr. Hislop saying that the student should be in a ASD or special needs unit?

Dr. Harold Hislop

Not at all. One must make a judgment about the enrolment of students.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Teachers make the judgment but do not receive assistance.

Chairman

The Deputy's time is up.

Dr. Harold Hislop

I will answer the first question. One must make judgments about the enrolment of the student in the ASD unit, in a special class or a mainstream class depending on the needs of the individual child.

We are trying to accommodate the vast bulk of children within mainstream classes and to provide them with the teaching and the special needs assistance when it is possible. I was trying to explain to the Deputy that the quality of the teaching input is the most vital part of the provision made for the child. The evidence suggests that the more we can give the teacher support and facilitate the teacher's engagement with the child, then the better the intellectual, social, cognitive and other development of the child will be.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Coming back to who owns the schools, there is a divestment programme. It is moving slowly but one exists. What happens when schools are divested and there is a new patron? Does the charity change? Does it go back to the State? What happens when completely new schools are built and there is patronage? Who owns a school in that case? Is it the Minister for Education or is it the charity that owns it?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

I ask Mr. Loftus to comment on divestment and on the new school situation, where a school is established de novo, whether on a new site or whatever.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I will deal with the second aspect of the Deputy’s question first and then come back to divestment. Regarding new schools, the vast bulk of new schools are done through a patronage competition. Most of those are multi-denominational. It is not necessarily a competition per se, but it reflects the survey undertaken of the local parental community in respect of what sort of school provision is deemed desirable in the area. Typically, those schools are being established in buildings owned by the Minister. The school entity which is set up is a tenant in the pre-built schools.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What happens with patronage if it is a Catholic or Protestant school?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

If the demand and the survey regarding the patronage competition shows-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes, I understand that. Where does the school asset the State has paid for reside?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

There are two scenarios. If the asset is on a site owned by the Minister, then that asset rests entirely with the Minister.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Irrespective of the patronage.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

It is irrespective of the patronage. The school, whether it is a community national school, an Educate Together school, a Catholic school, a Protestant school or a Gaelscoil, is, essentially, just a tenant in the building owned by the Minister.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What about the divestment aspect? Does that come back to the State?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Life has moved on a bit from divestment. We are more into the reconfiguration approach rather than divestment. With reconfiguration, essentially, the scenario is that it is, to a large degree, a live school environment and a live school reconfiguring from a denominational school to a multi-denominational school. This is the approach we have and the engagement we have been having with the church. We have had intensive engagement with the church in the last year. I have led on this from the Department’s perspective. Earlier this year, we announced the pilot areas-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What does that actually mean in simple terms? Does the patronage change?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

In a reconfiguration scenario, the intention is that the patronage changes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What happens in the context of the charity underpinning the school? Where does the asset then reside?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Let us picture a scenario whereby we have a Catholic school in a patron-owned building and that school reconfigures, for argument’s sake, into an Educate Together school or a community national school. The existing live school reconfigures. The ownership of the building itself remains with the patron or trustee. The building does not come over with the school per se. Therefore, it is nearly the reverse of the situation where a building is owned by the Minister. The reconfigured school in this scenario is essentially a tenant in the building already there.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is there no clawback, for example, if the building was constructed in the 1980s and mostly built with public funds? There was always a contribution as well, if you like, but often that contribution came from the community rather than the religious institution. What happens in those situations?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

The sorts of rental arrangements that might be worked through in that type of situation are done on a case-by-case basis. They reflect the circumstances of an individual school in respect of the level of investment that might have been made in that school in modern times, for example, as well as the level of future investment that might be planned. Those are the types of factors that come into play in that kind of scenario. To give the Deputy a guide, some schools would have been done through that process in the past and the sorts of rental arrangements might have been of the order of 10% of what might have been deemed local market rents.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

We may well come back at some stage on the rents generally paid.

Turning to another topic, can we get an update on what has happened with the Harold’s Cross site? This matter came up in previous meetings of this committee in respect of the valuation. It happened to be the exact figure that the then Irish Greyhound Board, IGB, was indebted to. Some €23 million was paid for that site, which had restrictive zoning. It was subsequently zoned for education. At the time, there was a question mark about the valuation, because it would have been very different if the valuation had been in the context of educational and institutional as opposed to residential. A residential zoning was the comparator used when the site was purchased. What has happened on that site? What level of investment is expected in the land purchased?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

The Harold’s Cross site has six acres. It was bought in May 2018 for €23 million. The cost was determined by the Valuation Office, using relevant local comparators. Under Department of Public Expenditure and Reform procedures, that is the appropriate mechanism for determining the valuation. The Valuation Office produced the valuation that was binding on the Department of Education and on the IGB. That was the process.

It is a six-acre site and we are using it for two schools. One is a 1,000-pupil post-primary school, Harold’s Cross Educate Together Secondary School, and the other is a 16-classroom primary school, Harold’s Cross Educate Together National School. That is the long-term plan. This major project has gone through the design phase and into the detailed design stage. We have gone through the planning permission process. An Bord Pleanála appeals have impacted on our timeline. We are at the stage now, however, where this project is going out to tender later this year. Our intention is to be on-site in 2023. In the meantime, we have put some interim accommodation on that site to meet the need, conscious that our timelines have been impacted by the planning permission process.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I presume that the school and the site will continue to be owned by the Minister for Education.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Absolutely.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I will ask about a local issue.

It was on the list to acquire a site. There are three schools on one campus in Donaghcumper in Celbridge. This was all under the National Asset Management Agency, NAMA. There was some progress on acquiring the site quite recently. I talked to the Department about the demographics in north Kildare. There will be a pinch point next year with regard to the secondary school, and a primary school has been based in permanent prefabs since it was founded. The other school I particularly want to ask about and is St. Raphael's Special School, which is attended by very highly dependent children and children who require medical assistance. The school had difficulty taking in pupils because of the accommodation. When does Mr. Loftus expect permission to be applied for in respect of those schools? When are they likely to be delivered? There is a real pinch point coming there.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

We are fully aware of that pinch point. It is a key priority for us in the Department to deliver on those schools. We have an agreement in principle in terms of the site. As the Deputy said, there was NAMA involvement. It took a while to get it over the line. We have been looking at our best delivery mechanisms to deliver on that project. It will be a major campus project and it will be great when it is done. Obviously, it is taking longer than we would have liked given the issues in terms of getting the site. We can provide an update note to the Deputy.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

One aspect of NAMA's remit was that in the case of assets that were owned, which may well have been distressed assets but they were owned or the debt at least was owned, there could be an opportunity for community value or State value.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

There could be a social gain.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

That was in NAMA right from the word go. Why did it take so long to get a site that could have been used for that? It is in a good location. There is no doubt about the need. Is there a reason why it would have taken so long to get to the point where that could be used for educational purposes?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

To be honest, I do not know the history of the individual project in terms of the time it took to work through NAMA, to what extent there was developer involvement or not that NAMA was using as leverage or things like that. I do not know the full details. At a more general level, the Department would have been looking at all opportunities for getting sites as quickly as possible through the State and through NAMA, and everything else as part of its site acquisition programme. We would have been successful in other areas in terms of engagement with NAMA as well.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It is an incredibly long period.

Chairman

I will revert to the school estates for a moment. Almost nine out of ten are owned by entities that are not within the State system. In the seven years between 2012 and 2019, there was a spend of €4.1 billion on them, with €3 billion on major capital programmes and the rest on maintenance, summer schemes, etc. There was a recommendation from the Chief State Solicitor's office in 2009 that the Department of Education would implement a legal agreement to protect the interests of the State. There is a significant risk to the State's investment, which should be safeguarded, if there is a change in patron or the site is sold to a third party. What has happened in the interim? The Comptroller and Auditor General highlighted this in his 2018 report. Recommendation 1.3 was that the Department should ensure that legal agreements are in place between it and the school authorities in order to ensure that the members' interests are protected, and that this should be done as a matter of urgency. I understand that has not happened to date. What is the position in this regard?

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

I will defer to Mr. Loftus, who is leading on the leases and such. He can answer the Chairman's question on the up-to-date situation.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

This is an area I was conscious of when I came into the job as head of the planning and building unit in 2017. It is an area that needed to be progressed and moved forward. In terms of protecting the Minister's interests, there are a number of strands to that. As part on investment in new schools or capital investment-----

Chairman

Has progress been made with implementing legal agreements?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes, absolutely.

Chairman

Could Mr. Loftus outline what it is?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

The number of strands relates to the undertakings we get from patrons when doing capital investment in terms of the new school lease with Minister-owned properties, finalising that lease with the Chief State Solicitor's office, doing the engagement with stakeholders and moving into implementation stage now. Where it is patron-owned, the deed of confidant in charge is where we have engaged with the Chief State Solicitor's office. One of the things on which I have engaged with the Chief State Solicitor's office and my own team is that we take a more strategic approach on this. A patron or trust might own maybe 100 schools. Rather than doing individual legal agreements for 100 schools 100 times, I have tasked our team to see whether we can be more strategic and have an overarching agreement that can manage and do that in a more strategic way without having an army of work or army of cost sitting in the Chief State Solicitor's office, Department of Education or the Property Registration Authority. Equally, it is far more efficient for the patrons as well. That is the area we are actively engaging with the-----

Chairman

Do we have a timeline for when that will be? It was pointed out by the Chief State Solicitor's office in 2009 and highlighted again in 2018 in the Comptroller and Auditor General in report. Do we have a timeline for when it can be done?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

It is being very actively worked on. I would certainly see a scenario whereby we would be moving into pilot phase in respect of that this year if at all possible.

Chairman

The Department will have an overarching agreement for the different patrons and bodies.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes. In the meantime, we have our undertakings and also the separate aspect we deal with as part of our strategic engagement with local authorities. We very much are in the space of protecting school sites in terms of the zonings to ensure they are maximised for educational uses.

Chairman

Okay. The local authorities, in fairness, have been helpful in any case I have come across where material contravention was needed.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Absolutely.

Chairman

In other words, and the point was raised earlier, where land is not zoned in the county development plan and the next one might be five years away, generally, the local authority members in an area will facilitate, where possible, and it would make sense by way of a material contravention.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Generally, we are very happy with the engagement we have. We work very collaboratively with the local authorities and, in fairness, equally with patrons and trustees. To give the Chairman one example, we have had much engagement with the Spiritan Education Trust. One part of that is a large site in south Dublin at Templeogue. What we are doing as part of that engagement is opening up opportunities for another school to go on that site, which will be a special school to cater for 150 students. That saves us the cost of a site in south Dublin, which is significant, but it also makes real added value in terms of special school provision for south Dublin.

Chairman

It is good that this is happening and that there is this kind of joined-up thinking. Can Mr. Loftus come back to the Committee of Public Accounts? We will probably have a recommendation that this overarching agreement is expedited because it has been highlighted twice. It was 13 years ago now, and it is important that it is done.

We will go back to the special educational needs organisers, SENO, for a minute. In the context of the earlier question, how many SENOs were there this time last year?

How many do we have now? That may tell us what progress there has been on the 1,100 extra ones. How many were there in May 2021 and how many were there in June 2022?

Ms Martina Mannion

In terms of the special needs organisers who work with the NCSE?

Chairman

No, the SNAs.

Ms Martina Mannion

The number of SNAs who have been allocated by the Department has increased this year by 1,100.

Chairman

How many are there?

Ms Martina Mannion

Overall, at the end of the school year, there will be more than 19,000 SNAs in our school system.

Chairman

There are 19,000 at present, at the end of the school term.

Ms Martina Mannion

Correct. These are broken down between SNAs working in mainstream provision-----

Chairman

Just a second. I want to get the overall figure. This time last year, how many were there?

Ms Martina Mannion

The number has increased in this school year by more than 1,000, so it was 18,000 last year. A total of 1,165 SNAs were allocated in budget 2022 and that will bring the total number of SNAs in the system by the end of this year to 19,169.

Chairman

Deputy Carthy asked for the specific number so the Department might come back to the committee with that figure.

Ms Martina Mannion

On that, where the SNAs are paid, they on the Department of Education payroll. What we will have on that is the total number of SNAs who are on the system. It is going to be difficult to disaggregate the extra ones who go on this year’s as distinct from people already in the system. We will be able to give the committee the total number of SNAs who are on the payrolls, both the Department payroll and the ETB payrolls.

Chairman

That is fine. With regard to how they are allocated, I know there are always debates about this issue and the inspector over that section, Mr. Hislop, outlined the criteria and how the assessment is done. I want to highlight with regard to the allocation of funding for such schools that, as I see it, there are different levels of need and there are situations where children's level of psychological or physical disability would not be very intense. However, the Kolbe school has been told it is overstaffed. I visited the school a number of times and I know the students have very intense needs, both psychological and physical. The first time I was there, I came away and wondered to myself how anyone would get through a day, given the level of need the children have is so intense. However, the school has been told it is overstaffed. Children stay there until they are 18 years of age and there are teenagers there who are a lot bigger than me, which presents significant challenges. I do not want to go into too much detail but I have witnessed it at first hand. The staff are really challenged and people have been injured, and there are many things I could say about it to the Department privately. We cannot have a situation where the criteria are the same for that school. I appeal to the Department and Mr. Hislop to examine that.

The parents are greatly challenged and the summer period is very difficult for them. When children go to the Kolbe school during the day in the normal school term, it gives parents of bit of breathing space, but the staff take over and it is a very challenging situation for them. Speaking on behalf of the parents and staff, for September the school needs a couple of extra SNAs, given what they are saying to me, and I appeal to the Department to look at that.

Ms Martina Mannion

I appreciate that. I want to make clear that the general allocation we are talking about in terms of teachers and SNAs to special schools and special classes is what comes with the opening of the special class, so it is one teacher and two SNAs in a class of six children in either a special class or a special school. However, we absolutely understand there will be children within those cohorts who will need individual SNAs to support them through their education. The National Council for Special Education will work with schools to ensure that where the needs of those children merit an individual SNA - I did not get the opportunity to say this to Deputy Verona Murphy before she left - the system has not changed in terms of individual children no longer needing an SNA or no longer being able to access an individual SNA, if that is what they require. If the level of care need is such that an individual SNA is required for an individual child, the NCSE has the scope to provide that in those circumstances to those children.

Chairman

It is good to hear that. I have been in units in special schools where children had special needs. While I do not want to be parochial about it, I could not go home today with a clear conscience not having raised that. The level of need in Kolbe is far higher. It has an extra three or four pupils coming in this September. I do not need to remind Mr. Loftus about the building, which is of the worst standard. They are still in prefabs. There is only one solid classroom unit and everything else is prefabs. That is difficult enough in an ordinary school, for want of a better term. However, there are children with challenging behaviour and severe physical and psychological disabilities in this school, yet there is no sensory space and all of that is missing, which compounds the issues.

I ask the Department to keep its foot on the accelerator. The school has been told to go to tender. I appeal to the building unit of the Department to push that on as much as it can. The Department might come back to me, on foot of today's meeting, with a note on where things stand and whether the timeline for the next stage can be expedited.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Absolutely. We are particularly conscious of special schools in our school building programme and how we can support those.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I wondered about DIT, whether there are any remaining assets and how that relates to the campus in Grangegorman in terms of funding the project. Has that transferred to the new Department or is it still with the Department of Education?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Grangegorman has moved over and that is under the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. The Department of Education purchased Cathal Brugha Street, which was a former DIT building, and Rathmines. At Cathal Brugha Street, we did a lease arrangement with the City of Dublin ETB and that provides us with a very good opportunity for four schools with 2,500 students in permanent accommodation, and with significant special needs provision. That is a good strategic use of that asset from a State perspective and creates a college of further education in the north part of the city, which would be good for the north inner city as well. To answer the question about Grangegorman, that is under the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. We have a primary school on the margins of that campus which is currently under construction.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

There is nothing still to be tied up in terms of other-----

Mr. Hubert Loftus

No, it is pretty clean in terms of the break-up of the Department. That is being worked through between the two Departments, and the accountants and the finance unit worked through the financial arrangements around that.

Chairman

I thank the witnesses for joining us and the staff of the Department for the work in preparing for the meeting. I also thank the Comptroller and Auditor General and his staff for assisting the committee today. Is it agreed that the clerk will seek any follow-up information and carry out any agreed actions arising from the meeting? Agreed. Is it also agreed that we note and publish the opening statements and the briefings provided for today's meeting? Agreed.

I acknowledge the work of the Department in recent years. It was hard to do things perfectly. The committee even had a job functioning at times and trying to keep to schedule. I acknowledge the significant effort made in trying to keep 4,000 schools up and running. We have raised many issues today. We are in the front line with the public, and schools are very important. Irish people place a high importance on the education system. Local Deputies and Ministers are the first people to be contacted when things are not going right or when it is felt things need to move faster. I appreciate the Department's co-operation in that regard. I thank the witnesses for attending.

Mr. Gavan O'Leary

We will convey the remarks of the Chair to the Secretary General. I echo what the Chair said on the efforts of schools, school communities and the staff of the Department during the pandemic. It was a very challenging time and a substantial amount of work was put in to ensure teaching and learning continued.

Chairman

I remind members we will resume in private session at 1.30 p.m. to discuss a little bit of important business, after which we will resume in public session.

The witnesses withdrew.

Sitting suspended at 12.31 p.m. and resumed in private session at 1.33 p.m.

The committee met in public session at 1.58 p.m.