COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 10 Nov 2022

Greyhound Racing Ireland: Financial Statements 2021

Mr. John Tuohey (Interim Chief Executive Office and Chief Financial Officer, Greyhound Racing Ireland) called and examined.

Chairman

Apologies have been received from Deputies Catherine Murphy and Carroll McNeill.

If attending in the committee room, people are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19. Members of the committee attending remotely must continue to do so from within the precincts of Leinster House. This is due to the constitutional requirement that, in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit.

The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, sends his apologies. He is represented today by Mr. Andy Harkness, director of audit, who is accompanied by Mr. Mark Brady, deputy director of audit at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

This morning, we will engage with the following officials from Rasaíocht Con Éireann, Greyhound Racing Ireland, to examine its financial statements for 2021. We are joined by Mr. John Tuohey, interim CEO and chief financial officer, Mr. Frank Nyhan, chairman, Mr. William Fitzgerald, veterinary director, and Mr. Patrick Herbert, director of regulation. We are also joined by the following officials from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine: Mr. Gordon Conroy, assistant secretary general; Ms Caroline Ball, principal officer; and Ms Louise McAlavey, assistant principal officer. All of our guests are very welcome. I remind all those in attendance to ensure that their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off.

Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege, and the practice of the Houses as regards the reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. Witnesses within the precincts of Leinster House are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 218 to the effect that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I now call on Mr. Harkness to make his opening statement.

Mr. Andy Harkness

Rásaíocht Con Éireann was established to provide a statutory basis for the control, regulation and development of greyhound racing in the State. Organisationally, it operates a group structure comprising the statutory body and four subsidiary companies. It operates racing at nine tracks around the State and oversees racing at a number of privately owned or operated tracks.

Rásaíocht Con Éireann operates in one of the sectors most affected by restrictions put in place in response to the Covid-19 pandemic. Its results for 2020 were substantially affected and a full recovery of activities was not achieved in 2021. As a result, Rásaíocht Con Éireann incurred a loss of €1.4 million in respect of tote betting and other race-related activities in 2021. This followed a loss from those activities of €1.8 million in 2020, and compares with a surplus of €400,000 generated from racing activities in 2019.

Rásaíocht Con Éireann relies substantially on Exchequer funding, and received €19.2 million in 2021, up from €16.8 million in 2020. This funding was sourced from the Agriculture, Food and the Marine Vote via the Horse and Greyhound Racing Fund. The other main source of income in the year was the contributions from owners and sponsors towards racing prize money, totalling €1.9 million.

On the expenditure side, Rásaíocht Con Éireann incurred costs totalling €16.7 million in 2021. This included €8 million paid out in prize money, €3.3 million spent on racing regulation, welfare, and integrity costs and €1.4 million spent on marketing and promotion. Overall, Rásaíocht Con Éireann made a surplus for the year of €3 million. The 2021 group financial statements received a clear audit opinion.

Mr. John Tuohey

On behalf of Rásaíocht Con Éireann, Greyhound Racing Ireland, I thank the committee the opportunity to come before it today. I am the interim chief executive officer and chief financial officer of the board and I am accompanied by our chairperson, Mr. Nyhan, Mr. Fitzgerald, our veterinary director and Mr. Herbert, our director of regulation.

As set out in the invitation to attend, the accounts for examination before the committee today are the financial statements for Rásaíocht Con Éireann for the year ended 31 December 2021. It was a positive year for Rásaíocht Con Éireann from the greyhound racing perspective as a full racing calendar was completed consisting of 1,384 race meetings compared with 1,085 in 2020, accommodating 15,533 individual races in comparison with 11,651 in 2020.

Some 91,778 greyhounds were entered into these races. Covid-19 restrictions severely curtailed attendances. However, 158,029 patrons attended greyhound racing events in 2021, which was an increase from 2020, when the attendance was 126,376.

Financially, Rásaíocht Con Éireann operated prudently within budget with the aid of Government Covid-19 supports and careful cost management. The organisation is reporting an operating surplus before interest, depreciation and taxation for the year of €3.8 million, increasing from the €2.2 million surplus achieved in 2020. Food and beverage sales from stadia operated by our events and hospitality services division amounted to €0.9 million for 2021, generating a gross profit of €0.6 million. Tote turnover for the year was €7 million, with €1.7 million being received in international co-mingling income. The sale of media rights from race meetings generated €1.9 million in the year. Total prize money paid for the year was €8.1 million, increased from €6 million in 2020.

Care and welfare of greyhounds is the main priority of the board and expenditure in 2021 totalled €3.3 million, increasing from €3 million in 2020.

The defined benefit pension scheme, which is closed to new entrants, is now closed to future accrual. The net defined benefit liability at 31 December 2021 amounted to €568,000 and a funding plan has been agreed with the trustee to address this liability. Significant improvement has been achieved in addressing the working capital deficit, moving from a negative €1.4 million at 31 December 2020 to a positive €1.4 million at 31 December 2021.

I once again thank the Chair for the opportunity to come before the committee. We will endeavour to respond to all members' questions. However, if there is any additional information required arising from this meeting, we will be pleased to provide that information in a prompt manner.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I would like to welcome our guests from Greyhound Racing Ireland and thank them for coming before us. I will start on the issue of animal welfare. I refer to the income and expenditure accounts for the overall care and welfare programme. On the disclosure of all expenditure that has occurred in relation to greyhound welfare, why did the Accounting Officer not prepare this in a singular note so the user of the account could easily identify the type of expenditure? Can he give us an explanation on that?

Mr. John Tuohey

This would be in respect of the two categories - the racing regulation welfare and laboratory integrity and governance section and then, separately, the greyhound care fund. Are those the two items the Deputy is referring to?

Deputy Alan Dillon

That is correct. The care fund, specifically.

Mr. John Tuohey

The background to the care fund dates from 2019 when it was established with the purpose of ringfencing certain income which would then be used specifically for greyhound care fund purposes. That income was to come from 10% of gate receipts, 5% of net tote revenue and 50% of most of our sponsorship. We then expended those funds in specific categories of expenditure around fostering, welfare homes and those areas. That was the reason that we identify it as a separate line on the income and expenditure account.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Perhaps Mr. Tuohey can give us the breakdown of the welfare expenditure for 2020 and 2021.

Mr. John Tuohey

The majority of the expenditure in 2020, approximately €1 million of it, was in respect of a Covid support scheme that we brought in to effectively assist in feeding the greyhounds while racing was suspended. It was €2 per day per racing greyhound. In total it came to just under €1 million. The other aspects of it were in relation to the fostering and so on.

Deputy Alan Dillon

For 2020, the expenditure was €1.1 million. What was the total expenditure for 2021?

Mr. John Tuohey

In 2021, the total expenditure from the fund was €523,000.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Okay. We have a drop there of €668,000.

Mr. John Tuohey

It is specifically because in 2020 we had to expend additional funds during the period when the greyhounds were not racing. The Deputy will see also that our prize money was reduced in 2020 compared to 2022, and that is where the greyhound owners and trainers receive their income.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Does Mr. Tuohey have an estimate for 2022 in terms of what percentage of overall expenditure is utilised on animal welfare?

Mr. John Tuohey

We will probably be coming in or around the same figure - in excess of €3.3 million for the year.

Deputy Alan Dillon

How about for the care fund?

Mr. John Tuohey

The care fund would be in and around €0.5 million by the time the year is up. It depends on attendances and so on. However, any shortfall that occurs in relation to any of the programmes, we have we make up from other funds.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Can Mr. Tuohey give us an explanation of the respective roles Greyhound Racing Ireland and the Irish Kennel Club have in relation to animal welfare?

Mr. John Tuohey

I might pass over to my colleague, Mr. Herbert, in relation to that specifically.

Mr. Pat Herbert

The Greyhound Racing Act 2019 chiefly assigns Greyhound Racing Ireland as the promoters and developers of greyhound racing in Ireland. The Irish Kennel Club is very much based on greyhound breeds. It has its own microchipping database as well. In Greyhound Racing Ireland, the registrations are carried out through the offices of the Irish Coursing Club, which is based in Clonmel. It is the statutory appointed body that looks after all areas of registration, breeding, mating, whelping and litter registration. Chiefly, under the provisions of the 2019 Act, we are the purveyors of racing regulation and welfare maintenance relating to the greyhound industry. We also have authorised officers under the Animal Health and Welfare Act 2013 in addition to being operators Welfare of Greyhounds Act 2011, which is the only set of statutory legislation in this country chiefly assigned to one canine breeds, that being greyhounds.

Deputy Alan Dillon

On the Irish Kennel Club, Mr. Herbert mentioned that each of the breeds is chipped. In relation to traceability around these, how many does he estimate are not chipped to date?

Mr. Pat Herbert

Under the microchipping regulations, every canine in this country has to be chipped, outside of greyhounds. It is national legislation. It is a racing requirement that every greyhound is chipped. The Irish Coursing Club, ICC, operates its own microchipping and it is an authorised database.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Mr. Herbert said every racing-----

Mr. Pat Herbert

I apologise. Every greyhound in this country is microchipped, chiefly by the ICC stewards who are the operators of an authorised database called MicroDog.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Are they signed up to Greyhound Racing Ireland's traceability system?

Mr. Pat Herbert

Yes. I would take the opportunity to talk a bit about that, but there is extensive communication between the Irish Coursing Club that feeds into the traceability system from our side, in addition to a race management system. I would love the opportunity to talk a bit further about that if it would interest the Deputy.

Deputy Alan Dillon

The question was in relation to the traceability system. How many greyhounds does Mr. Herbert reckon have not been signed up to that? How does Greyhound Racing Ireland monitor the welfare of greyhounds that have not been signed up?

Mr. Pat Herbert

The provisions of the microchipping regulations require that every canine is microchipped at 12 weeks. The information on greyhounds chipped by the Irish Coursing Club is immediately fed into the traceability system.

Deputy Alan Dillon

How many inspections have the welfare officers carried out?

Mr. Pat Herbert

I have the figures to hand. As the chief executive has already pointed out, the board has a very clear focus on animal welfare. It is stringently supported by our board, thankfully. Just over 2,000 welfare inspections have been carried out to date in 2022. The figure for last year was just over 1,200. This covers all greyhound establishments including owners, trainers and breeders.

Deputy Alan Dillon

How many premises have licences to train greyhounds? How many of these premises have been inspected in 2022?

Mr. Pat Herbert

All trainers' premises are routinely inspected in the course of a year. They are also subject to an application process whereby they must reapply on an annual basis for a trainer's licence under the trainers' regulations of 1961. In advance of any licence being issued, an authorised officer inspects the premises from an operational and welfare perspective to make sure it complies with the requirements of the code of practice that we published last November.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Does Greyhound Racing Ireland have concerns about the welfare of greyhounds in Ireland? Has it taken appropriate action to address them?

Mr. Pat Herbert

Greyhound racing is a sport. As with every sport, there are people who excel at it and people who do not. There are people who will transgress regulations and people who will not. We are no different from any other sport in this regard. Are we a perfect industry? No, we are not. We have regulations and I assure the Deputy we have ramped up our regime on welfare adherence and regulation. With regard to the inspection figures in 2021, there were 235 welfare investigations and the figure to date this year is 485. Arising out of these, in 2021 we issued 82 fixed penalty notices under the Welfare of Greyhounds Act.

Deputy Alan Dillon

There were only two convictions.

Mr. Pat Herbert

Absolutely. We issue a number of fixed notice penalties. The whole essence of the Welfare of Greyhounds Act is to try to bring people with us. We have an aged participation in the industry. It is very much about trying to drive compliance. We are not afraid to bring people before the courts where the case arises.

Deputy Alan Dillon

What are the disciplinary measures?

Mr. Pat Herbert

The provisions of the Welfare of Greyhounds Act and the Animal Health and Welfare Act allow cases to be brought to the District Court. In recent years the board has issued a number of exclusion orders arising out of court prosecutions pursuant to the Greyhound Industry Act 1958. These exclusion orders chiefly exclude that person from attendance at a track, coursing meetings and authorised sales.

Deputy Alan Dillon

With regard to retired greyhounds that are not racing, what measures are in place regarding the Irish Retired Greyhound Trust, IRGT? How many greyhounds are rehomed with financial assistance provided by the board to private rehoming agencies?

Mr. Pat Herbert

I will defer to my colleague on this. Mr. William Fitzgerald is the veterinary director.

Mr. William Fitzgerald

There are a number of strands to this particular question. The IRGT is a registered charity that is 25 years old this year. It operates under a deed of trust. In 2021 the IRGT rehomed 2,234 greyhounds. There were 1,001 directly rehomed and 1,233 rehomed through the private rehoming organisations we work with.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Were these a combination of racing greyhounds and standard greyhounds? Is there a differentiation between types of greyhounds?

Mr. William Fitzgerald

No, we do not differentiate. They are greyhounds that no longer race. They are greyhounds that are registered in the Irish greyhound studbook. We do not differentiate. To the end of October 2022, we rehomed 1,509 greyhounds through the same channels. The breakdown of this is 740 directly through the IRGT and 769 through our private rehoming partners.

Deputy Alan Dillon

What is the contribution made by Greyhound Racing Ireland to provide financial assistance or Exchequer funding to support them?

Mr. William Fitzgerald

The assistance comes on a number of levels. Preparing the greyhounds to be rehomed involves a number of facets. The first of these is getting the dog neutered. A contribution of €50 per greyhound is made towards this. There is also a contribution towards the cost of vaccinations and preparing health checks of the greyhounds to the amount of €80 per greyhound. Since the beginning of February this year there is an additional €50 per greyhound for any dental work required.

Deputy Alan Dillon

It amounts to €200.

Mr. William Fitzgerald

It is €180 per dog for the direct preparation of the greyhounds.

Deputy Alan Dillon

What was the overall expenditure for 2021 from the Exchequer to support this? Is this figure available for 2021?

Mr. John Tuohey

Through the IRGT we spent €450,000 in respect of veterinary fees.

Deputy Alan Dillon

From the Exchequer.

Mr. John Tuohey

Funding for the IRGT comes through Rasaíocht Con Éireann. A contribution of 2% is taken from winners' prize money and allocated to the IRGT. This amounted to €101,000, matched by Rasaíocht Con Éireann and supplemented further to the tune of €363,000 in 2021.

Deputy Alan Dillon

How does Greyhound Racing Ireland monitor the welfare of the greyhounds that have been rehomed? It has provided more than €450,000 of Exchequer funding to put the dogs through the right processing system. How is welfare monitored on an ongoing basis?

Mr. William Fitzgerald

In the process of rehoming these greyhounds, each individual application goes through a process of assessing whether the dog is the right fit for the person or family. This includes home checks and conversations with prospective owners as to whether it is a good fit for them. Their level of experience of owning a dog is assessed as is what having a greyhound in their life would mean and the changes they may expect as a result. This is particularly acute at present. I am quite sure the Deputy has seen reports not only from us but from other rehoming charities, specifically Dogs Trust, on dogs being surrendered. Dogs were taken into homes during the Covid pandemic but surrendered when people returned to work in the office. The transition from being a racing dog to a retired dog is a two-pronged process. It is not only about getting the dog prepared but also that the people who take the dogs in know exactly what they are dealing with.

Deputy James O'Connor

I welcome the witnesses. I will begin by calling a spade a spade. People who are unfamiliar with the sport ask questions about why it should be in receipt of such a degree of money. A good opening question from my point of view is to ask what benefit this has for the economy. I know Greyhound Racing Ireland undertook extensive economic research in the Power report. What does this do for rural Ireland and the circular economy in return for Exchequer funding?

What economic benefits does it provide society?

Mr. John Tuohey

Initially, the Jim Power report was commissioned in 2021. The economic benefit on an overall basis was highlighted in a number of categories within that report. It is primarily of benefit in rural Ireland, where the greyhound racing community, owners and trainers are primarily based. It is in their local economies. It is also a spin-off where the stadiums are based, so employment is generated directly and indirectly from all of the stadiums. Obviously, that is not confined purely to rural Ireland. Shelbourne Park is our flagship stadium, located in Dublin, and it is the largest generator of income from an events and hospitality perspective.

Deputy James O'Connor

On a more grassroots basis, how many individuals are involved with greyhound racing as a sport? How many people are employed in it? How many breeders are there? Do the witnesses have those figures available? It is very important for Greyhound Racing Ireland to give the public at large some idea of why that investment from the Horse and Greyhound Racing Fund is worthy of going to it and what the knock-on positives are. I ask the witnesses to give a bit of depth and scope there. How many people are involved overall on the breeding side? I would also like a bit more detail on the level of attendances at the tracks.

Mr. John Tuohey

I will take the direct employment first. Approximately 118 people are employed directly full time within the organisation as we speak. Part-time casual employees, which include workers in our restaurants, in our tote, track maintenance services and so on, would make up a further 480. That figure fluctuates and will increase as we come into the Christmas season. Indirectly, on the breeders-----

Mr. Pat Herbert

We would have somewhere in the region of 4,000 active owners. When I say "active" I mean registered in the last 12 months. Our racing pools indicate the number of greyhounds actively available for entry at any one time. The Deputy will appreciate that this changes. It is a very fluid thing when bitches come into season and greyhounds are laid off from the racing period. Our racing pools would fluctuate on a monthly basis from somewhere between 4,500 and 5,000 greyhounds that are actively available for race entry across our licensed stadiums.

Deputy James O'Connor

With regard to income, in 2020 and 2021 there were extremely difficult circumstances for people involved in horse and greyhound racing. Incomes collapsed as a consequence of people not being able to attend race meetings and from the drop in income from the tote. How much is made from media licensing? SIS has the contract there. How much income comes from that on an annual basis?

Mr. John Tuohey

In 2021, €1.9 million was generated from media.

Deputy James O'Connor

Is that one company or is there a collective? Does more than one company have rights?

Mr. John Tuohey

We deal with just one company. There are other companies on a co-mingling basis for the international betting side of things. Separately, we generated €1.7 million from that co-mingling.

Mr. Pat Herbert

By way of additional information, the Deputy mentioned greyhound owners during this period. The interim CEO has already briefly referred to this. During the period of inactivity around Covid, we introduced a Covid-19 greyhound care payment scheme. It provided for a subsistence payment for each active racing greyhound during the period and it covered 6,650 greyhounds. The scheme was introduced to ensure basic needs were met during the period of inactivity while prize money was not being paid. The expenditure on that for the period in question was €998,000.

Deputy James O'Connor

I want to get an insight into the studbook. Who has regulatory responsibility there?

Mr. Pat Herbert

For the Irish greyhound studbook?

Deputy James O'Connor

Yes.

Mr. Pat Herbert

Under the provisions of the Welfare of Greyhounds Act 2011, the responsibility is very clearly with the Irish Coursing Club.

Deputy James O'Connor

Okay. From the perspective of the future of greyhound racing, the number of dogs produced is a concern for animal rights activists. I am sure the witnesses are going to hear a lot more about that today. What work could be done, within reason and not damaging the sport, to try to improve the transparency around breeding and reduce the number of dogs in breeding? If that were done, would there be consequences for the level of meetings and the income for the organisation? That is a question that needs to be asked for those who are unfamiliar with the sport. The vast majority of the Irish public do not have any in-depth knowledge of greyhound racing.

Mr. Pat Herbert

It is not insignificant that we would have seen a decline in breeding during Covid. Thankfully, numbers are returning at the moment. The Deputy may or may not be aware that all brood bitches in this country are DNA profiled. All whelps, in addition to being microchipped under national legislation, are ear tattooed and identified that way as well. I mentioned the Welfare of Greyhounds Act. It specifically provides for a code of practice, which we published in November of last year and which sets out provisions for the absolute minimum care for greyhounds and how they should be maintained. That covers all greyhounds - retired, racing, the whole lot. That statutory legislation is the only legislation in this country that is specifically directed towards one canine breed. There are provisions in that legislation for breaches in how greyhounds are kept. Our board takes a very serious view of any cases that come before the courts deals with people accordingly.

Deputy James O'Connor

During 2020 and 2021, the drop in spectators attending meetings was hugely significant to the income of Greyhound Racing Ireland. Looking at this year so far, how are attendances going? Are they recovering to 2019 levels in any shape or form?

Mr. Pat Herbert

I will defer to the interim chief executive on the attendance figures.

Mr. John Tuohey

We are seeing a strong recovery in attendances this year. At the end of October, on an overall basis we had in excess of 250,000 people attending the meetings. There has been a strong recovery. We are obviously targeting to improve that further. Post Covid, it was a good outcome because people were a little reticent to return to crowded areas and so on. It has been building momentum right through the year.

Deputy James O'Connor

I will return to the issue of the studbook. I asked this question and I would expect to get a proper answer. The level of dogs being bred per year is a huge concern. That would be the view of the general public overall. If you were to take a straw poll of a random sample of the population, I am sure that is what would come back as the biggest problem. Could Greyhound Racing Ireland do anything to try to tighten that up or increase the regulatory standards? Could the witnesses look at that and come forward with a plan? It is the way business is done in the racing industry with horses. I know the breeding of dogs is very different and obviously involves a different number of pups being born. A horse normally has one foal but that is not the case with a dog or bitch. Is that something that could be looked at, to try to bolster the level of accreditation and confidence in greyhound racing in this country? That should be done, if it can be.

Mr. Pat Herbert

We are always looking at areas to try to improve standards, whether that is in how greyhounds are kept, breeding standards, racing standards or welfare initiatives. It is important to note that there is also an active export market for greyhounds. That is supported by the numbers being bred. In 2017 there were 6,767 Irish-bred greyhounds registered in the UK, which would have been exported there.

The number decreased in 2021 to 5,882. That is a sizable proportion. Over 80% of greyhounds that race in the UK are of Irish extraction. There is active support for owners and breeders in this country and an active, fluid market which exports greyhounds to the UK. It is an important part of the greyhound industry. It provides support and a rationale for the numbers being bred in this country.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I welcome our guests. I think I am the only one here who was on the committee a few years ago when Bord na gCon, as it was then known, was in front of us. There were two meetings which we do not forget lightly. I am glad to see there have been some changes, with a new financial controller coming in a couple of years ago. I understand a new commercial director has been appointed and will be in place early next year. I regret that the CEO left, because I think things were beginning to change. The process to appoint someone is ongoing. I hope whoever is appointed has a lot of commercial sense and knowledge of the whole racing industry because it is specific knowledge.

I have questions regarding figures. In the 2021 report, prize money is given at €8.1 million. I want to get a sense of this. If the contribution from owners, sponsors and Sports Information Services, SIS, is subtracted, what is the prize money? Is it closer to €3.75 million or €4 million?

Mr. John Tuohey

On page 28 of the annual report, the contribution to the prize money noted under expenditure, excluding the contributions from owners and sponsors, is €6.2 million or €6.3 million.

Deputy Alan Kelly

What if SIS is deducted?

Mr. John Tuohey

I would not see it as a straight deduction, in that the prize money comes from the horse and greyhound racing fund. Media income is additional income generated.

Deputy Alan Kelly

It is generated because of that. If those are all added up, the direct contribution to the prize money is approximately €4 million rather than €8.1 million.

Mr. John Tuohey

I would not consider it fair to deduct the income that we generate from the SIS, which contributes to the prize fund-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

I know what Mr. Tuohey is saying and respect that. I am trying to get to how much from the horse and greyhound racing fund, which contributes to the organisation, is used for paying prize money versus running the organisation. By my calculation, while one can argue the toss over a couple of those contributions, that fund, which was set up to deliver prize money, was used for approximately a 70:30 split between running the organisation and the prize fund over a few years. Horse Racing Ireland is the only organisation to compare this with. It spends approximately 65% on prize money. The organisation is taking up a vast amount of the fund. Is that fair to say?

Mr. John Tuohey

I would not agree. The activity of greyhound racing is generating the income. Other commercial activities are taking place. We generate income and revenue from events and hospitality. It would not be fair to say that it should be deducted from the money paid from the fund. If we generated no income from the media rights, the prize money would still be provided to races.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I appreciate that, but the bottom line is that approximately 70% of the fund given to Greyhound Racing Ireland from the tax created by the Government is used to run the organisation. In any scenario, that is lopsided. The only organisation to compare with is Horse Racing Ireland, which spends 35% on the organisation and 65% on the prize fund. I allowed for Covid. The previous figures go to nearly an 80:20 split, while the previous year is a 65:35 split. The point is a large majority of the funding is used for running the organisation rather than for prize money.

Page 28 is on media and other income. There is a sum of €65,500. Why is SIS funding not in this part of the report on media and other income? Page 28 indicates that there was a loss of €1.48 million from racing activities. Why is that not part of this? Why is the spending on SIS not here?

Mr. John Tuohey

We would consider SIS income as part of our total turnover from racing activity. That particular category of media and other income covers sundry income that is generated. It is not a significant amount.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I know that. Why is all media not together?

Mr. John Tuohey

Because we believe we rightly categorised SIS income as part of the income from racing activities.

Deputy Alan Kelly

There is a racing activities loss of €1.48 million and spending on marketing of €1.469 million. I know we have had a difficult year, so I am allowing that, though it is not the answer to everything. Some €1.469 million was spent on marketing, for a loss of €1.48 million.

Mr. John Tuohey

One would need to look specifically at what is contained within our category of marketing expenditure. It is not purely marketing campaigns. It involves the staffing of our marketing department, commercial and sales department, and the staffing and running of our sales centre. There are a number of different elements to it.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I appreciate that and Mr. Tuohey's honesty. In my eyes, if one added the marketing activities and the SIS revenue, it would be €3.381 million for a marketing spend of €1.469 million if one adds the coverage through SIS and the marketing. It is extraordinary to have spent €1.469 million on marketing for a loss of €3.381 million. I will move on.

I have a question for the Department officials. Concerns have been expressed here and in reports about the board. I know a new CEO is being appointed. Best of luck to the interim CEO who is doing the job. In every Department, there are certain criteria when it comes to appointing people to boards, as well as the Public Appointments Service, which was the right thing to bring in. There is a concern that there is not actually anybody on the board with distinctive, extensive knowledge of the industry. Is the Department concerned about that? How does it know that the board has enough knowledge to adapt greyhound racing to modern times?

Mr. Gordon Conroy

As the Deputy is probably aware, vacancies on the board are advertised. We select a number of different possibilities and their names are put to the Minister. On any board, our approach is to ensure that there is a mix of different skill sets, including financial governance, as well as industry experience. We look to ensure that that happens. We are satisfied with the current board composition.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I would not be satisfied with it, so it is a matter of opinion. There is not enough industry expertise. Take the stadiums, for example. This was referenced in a number of reports, including that compiled by Indecon. Many of the stadiums are in an awful state. I am not sure some of them would pass health and safety. It is an issue that must be addressed and I would appreciate it if there was more board expertise.

I have a question in respect of the catering company. It is very hard to delve into the figures in the report, but how much of a profit has the catering company made over the past three years?

Mr. John Tuohey

I will take that one. On a gross profit basis in 2021 we generated €600,000. During the period 2020-21, it was obviously in-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

I understand.

Mr. John Tuohey

-----a loss-making situation.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I do not expect Greyhound Racing Ireland to have these figures now. The officials could write back to the committee and do a comparative analysis of the past five years of expenditure and income and then profits with respect to how catering was done prior to it being insourced versus when it was outsourced. They can take 2020 out. That can be supplied to the committee; I do not expect the officials to have it here. I would appreciate that.

Mr. John Tuohey

I would like to elaborate a little on the extent of the responsibilities of our events and hospitality function. It not alone caters for events and hospitality within the stadium but also has a role in the upkeep of the facilities-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

I understand.

Mr. John Tuohey

-----and ensuring all of that meets-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

That can all be outlined. I appreciate there is a difference between what was there previous to, and post, the pandemic.

Mr. John Tuohey

It is a different structure.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Yes, I understand that. We can delve through the figures to see. I just want to see if it was a good idea to do it and whether it is covering itself because there was some profit had from it under the old system. In fact, it was quite profitable for a period, so I want to see if that was the right decision.

Mr. John Tuohey

Health and safety inspections are carried out at all stadiums and we are compliant with all health and safety regulations.

Deputy Alan Kelly

No, but if you visit them - I have visited a good few of them. Has Mr. Tuohey? Okay. I thank the Chairman.

Chairman

The Deputy has been to the dogs.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I do not expect Mr. Tuohey has visited them all, trust me.

Chairman

Deputy Hourigan is next.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I thank the Chair. I welcome our guests and thank them for their submission and accompanying documents.

I want to get a sense of how the financial numbers stack up against the dog numbers. We have touched on it a bit and I thank Deputy O'Connor for introducing the Jim Power report because it is a good place to start. How many racing dogs do we have in Ireland?

Mr. Pat Herbert

As I mentioned, it changes on a month-to-month basis depending on the number of greyhounds that is actively-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Okay, but we are in a particular month now and we have a traceability scheme, so how many dogs are there today?

Mr. Pat Herbert

We have, I suppose, actively entered at our stadiums somewhere in the region of between 4,500 and 5,000 greyhounds monthly.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

That is up, as I believe the number was 3,600 previously.

Mr. Pat Herbert

Yes.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Is there a reason the number has taken such a jump? It is a considerable jump of 33% or so.

Mr. Pat Herbert

There are just more pups coming online and things like that too.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Returning to that pup issue, how many are born every year, or registered every year? I note the figure in the Jim Power report is 15,600.

Mr. Pat Herbert

Yes. They are Irish Coursing Club figures.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

They are not Greyhound Racing Ireland's figures.

Mr. Pat Herbert

They are the Irish Coursing Club's.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Greyhound Racing Ireland provided them to Jim Power, is that right?

Mr. Pat Herbert

Yes.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Why is the figure for 2019 in the Jim Power report, which is what he bases the financial analysis off, 15,600 when in the previous year it is 12,156 and in the year after it is 10,584? That seems anomalous.

Mr. Pat Herbert

All I can say is those figures were sourced from the Irish Coursing Club, which is the registration body for greyhound registration.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Is Mr. Herbert saying that Greyhound Racing Ireland does not stand over the figures in the Jim Power report?

Mr. Pat Herbert

No. It is a report that was commissioned by Greyhound Racing Ireland, so I assume we are standing over it.

Mr. John Tuohey

We stand over the figures, yes.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Who provided the figures?

Mr. John Tuohey

I would say we provided the figures.

Mr. Pat Herbert

Yes. We provided the figures from information given to us by the Irish Coursing Club.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

So Greyhound Racing Ireland is standing over the figure of 15,000.

Mr. Pat Herbert

Yes.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Can the witnesses explain why the 15,000 figure is so anomalous compared with other years?

Mr. Pat Herbert

It is just that we saw an increase in racing activity and numbers prior to Covid.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

That was 2019.

Mr. Pat Herbert

That was reflected by breeding numbers too.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

So in the previous years, the figures were 12,000, 12,000 and 12,000, and then in the year at which we are looking it was 15,000.

Mr. Pat Herbert

Correct.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Greyhound Racing Ireland is standing over that figure.

Mr. Pat Herbert

Yes.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

And the Department stands over that figure. Was there any audit done by the Department?

Mr. Gordon Conroy

That was a private report commissioned by Rásaíocht Con Éireann, so there was no audit done by the Department on that.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Was it submitted to the Minister? I believe it was.

Mr. Gordon Conroy

The Department had sight of it, yes.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

This report was submitted to the Minister.

Mr. Gordon Conroy

The Department had sight of it, yes.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

With these figures.

Mr. Gordon Conroy

Yes.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I thank Mr. Conroy. Returning to the figures given in that report, Greyhound Racing Ireland gives figures for the outlay of a trainer who is taking on a dog. The mount involved is just under €6,000. Is that correct?

Mr. Pat Herbert

Correct.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

At what age does a dog begin to race?

Mr. Pat Herbert

The minimum age requirement that a greyhound can trial at a licensed stadium is 13 months.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Thirteen months.

Mr. Pat Herbert

Yes.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

What is the average?

Mr. Pat Herbert

Most greyhounds would not appear on a track before 16 or 18 months. For a first trial.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I had it at 18 months, to be honest.

Mr. Pat Herbert

For its first trial.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

What I find interesting about the Jim Power report is that exports interact with this quite a bit. Some of the numbers imply that the dogs are in Ireland until they are at 24 months old. That is not the case, is it? Thus we are six months short on some of these numbers. If one looks at the number provided to Jim Power, Greyhound Racing Ireland is counting them as still being in Ireland at 24 months but, in reality, they might be exported to the UK at 18 months.

Mr. Pat Herbert

Absolutely, and some of them go to the UK after 24 months as well, by the same analogy.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Is that not double counting?

Mr. Pat Herbert

I am sorry.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Is that not double counting?

Mr. Pat Herbert

I do not consider it double counting.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

If a dog is being counted as here and is not here, is that incorrect counting then, maybe?

Mr. Pat Herbert

I do not see it that way because many greyhounds are exported after two, three, four races. They can race at various ages within those racing parameters as well.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Okay. As the 15,000 figure is, as Greyhound Racing Ireland states, provided by the Irish Coursing Club, does it include coursing dogs?

Mr. Pat Herbert

It does.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Greyhound Racing Ireland's traceability schemes do not include coursing dogs, however. Is that right?

Mr. Pat Herbert

That is absolutely correct, yes.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

All right. Do the schemes include dogs that never make it to trial?

Mr. Pat Herbert

They are the figures for greyhounds registered, yes.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

What about collateral dogs? In a previous contribution GRI told us dogs are registered at 12 weeks. Let us begin at the beginning. How many pups are in a litter on average?

Mr. Pat Herbert

On average, about six.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

On average, how many would Greyhound Racing Ireland expect to get to their first trial, out of six?

Mr. Pat Herbert

There would be, I suppose, figures. We have to be cognisant greyhounds are specifically reared in a different manner to allow freedom for them. They are typically reared on open farms in order that they can develop properly.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Yes.

Mr. Pat Herbert

They are not reared in small yards like small breeds.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

That is not really my question. Out of six pups, how many go on to racing?

Mr. Pat Herbert

With respect, I am getting to the answer to the Deputy's question. As part of the rearing process, there would be, I suppose, some level of accidental damage due to rearing accidents and things like that and I think those figures-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Like dogs dying on a farm.

Mr. Pat Herbert

Such as accidents where dogs gallop, and there would be accidents.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

That would be rare. Surely that is rare. Many of my-----

Mr. Pat Herbert

It happens.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

-----extended family are dog owners and also farmers. It would be rare for a dog to die on a farm.

Mr. Pat Herbert

It happens, and we need to recognise it happens as well.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

That would be a minute percentage of dogs. Out of those six pups per litter, how many get to a trial? Do we have a number for that? Is it three? Is it four?

Mr. Pat Herbert

I do not have those figures to hand but I would say it is more than three of four, I would imagine.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Does Greyhound Racing Ireland trace all six pups?

Mr. Pat Herbert

Yes.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

That is because they are registered at 12 weeks.

Mr. Pat Herbert

We are tracing all-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

What happens prior to 12 weeks?

Mr. Pat Herbert

The facets of our traceability system - we consulted other racing jurisdictions on how we developed our traceability system, including our Australian and UK counterparts, in addition to the cattle movement and monitoring system.

The origin points for our traceability system are the microchips and the ICC-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I do not mean to move Mr. Herbert along, but I am watching the clock tick down. Is there any way to know what happens to collateral pups under 12 weeks?

Mr. Pat Herbert

It is not tracked by the traceability system.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

How many are we exporting? We have established that some of them are going at 13 months and 18 months. Is there a cut-off point?

Mr. Pat Herbert

No, there is not. The number of Irish-bred greyhounds exported to the UK in 2021 was 5,882.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

While there will always be some variation, what was the average age of those dogs?

Mr. Pat Herbert

It is hard to assess because greyhounds are also exported as unraced pups in addition to raced pups.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Before they are trialled here?

Mr. Pat Herbert

Yes.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Mr. Herbert does not want to give the age in months.

Mr. Pat Herbert

I do not because GRI is not the relevant authority to track the age of greyhounds going through our ports. We have a traceability system that tracks the figures of exported greyhounds since January 2021

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Surely then GRI would have a breakdown of age.

Mr. Pat Herbert

It is an analogy that we could pull off this system.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Can GRI produce those figures in terms of the age, by month, a dog is when it is exported?

Mr. Pat Herbert

Yes, an age profile.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Going back to the Jim Power report, it seems those numbers do not add up. If exports are included, we are double counting those figures. We are then using the figure of just under €6,000 for cost. Let us take a person who has a litter of six pups and, being kind, let us say three or four pups get to a point at which they can race. You are talking about a massive outlay for a trainer. The sales figures do not necessarily indicate that there is any payout for them. It seems to be a huge loss-making exercise.

Mr. Pat Herbert

The sales figures track greyhounds sold at authorised auctions in Ireland. The Deputy will be aware that, with the advent of the Internet, there are also private online sales in the UK that are not tracked by our figures of licensed sales.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I looked up the figures and they are not dissimilar from Ireland to the UK.

Mr. Pat Herbert

In regard to the figures given in the Jim Power report, our greyhound owner and breeder organisations were consulted on the provision of those figures.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

The Jim Power report seems to imply that this is a massive loss-making exercise for people. Based on the report, there is double counting of numbers in terms of pups, the dog pool and exports. It does not add up. It seems this industry is not about racing at all but about breeding, as some 85% of dogs in the UK are from Ireland. Irish greyhound racing is a peripheral industry to the breeding industry. It goes directly to the United Kingdom and is propping up the gambling industry there, which is a £2.7 billion industry. I do not know if they need €19 million of Irish taxpayers' money to prop up their gambling.

The Greyhound Board of Great Britain, GBGB, has just announced that because of concerns over Irish welfare, they are going to start breeding. The business model, even based on the GRI report, will be under pressure. We will no longer be able to export at the level that we do now. Are there concerns about the export levels to the UK based on the GBGB announcement?

Mr. John Tuohey

By way of a general comment on the export of greyhounds, GRI can only track the sales price per the sales that go through official auctions.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

It is public knowledge. I googled it. One can get UK sales figures no problem.

Mr. John Tuohey

I put it to the Deputy, why would a person raise greyhounds at a loss?

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Exactly. Why would they, and why would we give them €19 million to do so?

Mr. John Tuohey

The €19 million does not go to greyhound breeders.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I think Deputy Kelly established that.

Mr. John Tuohey

The €19 million goes to the owners and trainers of racing greyhounds.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Does the Department have any concerns based on the GBGB announcement?

Mr. Gordon Conroy

Obviously, the rules governing the movement of all dogs, including greyhounds, are set out at EU level.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

This is not welfare question. It is a business-model question.

Mr. Gordon Conroy

The GBGB report has been discussed within RCÉ and we have no concerns.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

So Mr. Conroy has no concerns that they will not be able to export at that level.

Deputy Colm Burke

Following on from what my colleague said about exports, the report states that 85% of greyhounds used in the UK industry are coming from Ireland. Is that figure correct?

Mr. Pat Herbert

Over the last 20 years, the figure has fluctuated between 80% and 85%.

Deputy Colm Burke

The export of greyhounds to the UK greyhound industry is a good money generator for breeders in Ireland. Looking at the UK greyhound industry, do the witnesses believe that will decline in the coming years?

Mr. Pat Herbert

This year alone, additional tracks were opened in the UK, including in Oxford. Many of the greyhounds that service those tracks would actually not have been sourced from Ireland.

Deputy Colm Burke

Mr. Herbert does not envisage the level of greyhound exports will decrease.

Mr. Pat Herbert

I do not envisage it being threatened in any regard seeing as they are opening new tracks in the UK.

Deputy Colm Burke

Have there been changes in the number of greyhounds exported in the past 12 months compared with the 12-month period five years ago?

Mr. Pat Herbert

I happen to have to hand the number of Irish-bred greyhounds exported to and registered in the UK for the past five years. In the period from 2017 to 2021, the figures were 6,767, 6,392, 6,005, 5,707 and 5,882.

Deputy Colm Burke

There has been very little change during that five-year period.

Mr. Pat Herbert

It has been consistent. While we do have licensed auctions, the majority of greyhound sales are done by private arrangement via Internet sales etc. and we would not be privy to their disclosure value. As was said, that is the litmus test for sales activity in this country.

Deputy Colm Burke

I move on to the issue of legal costs and settlements. In 2021, the total amount incurred due to legal costs was in the order of €374,000, an increase of more than €174,000 since 2020. As that was nearly a 100% increase, is there an explanation as to why there was such a substantial increase in legal costs?

Mr. John Tuohey

We had some High Court cases. There was an injunction issued by the High Court regarding protestors outside Shelbourne Park. The cost of that case was in the region of €300,000.

Deputy Colm Burke

Was that just for one case?

Mr. John Tuohey

Yes.

Deputy Colm Burke

As to legal costs since the end of 2021, are there issues arising now that will incur legal costs, and has adequate provision been made for those?

Mr. John Tuohey

There is full provision made for any cases that were outstanding at the end of 2021. We do not have any High Court cases pending in 2022.

Deputy Colm Burke

Are there are legal proceedings outstanding?

Mr. John Tuohey

There are routine, commercial legal proceedings that one might deal with, including enforcement cases and so on. There is nothing of significant value in those.

Deputy Colm Burke

We have the legal cost for 2020 and 2021. What legal costs were there in the three years prior to that?

Mr. John Tuohey

I do not have those figures to hand but I can get them for the Deputy.

Deputy Colm Burke

Would it have been less?

Mr. John Tuohey

I would not care to speculate on it. I would need to check.

Deputy Colm Burke

Were there issues during that three-year period?

Mr. John Tuohey

Prior to 2020?

Deputy Colm Burke

Yes.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

I may be able to help as it probably arose before Mr. Tuohey's time.

There have been a number of challenges to our regulatory procedures over the past five years, two of which ended up in the High Court. Those cases are since finished.

Deputy Colm Burke

I will move on to the issue of the number of full-time employees that are currently employed by the board. What is the total number of full-time employees now?

Mr. John Tuohey

As of this month, it would be 118 full-time employees.

Deputy Colm Burke

What is the number of part-time employees?

Mr. John Tuohey

It varies a bit but it is approximately 480 at the moment. That fluctuates up and down, however, and will increase as we go to Christmas.

Deputy Colm Burke

Mr. Tuohey does not see any major change in that over the next 12 months to two years.

Mr. John Tuohey

No major change. Some full-time open positions have yet to be filled. There will, therefore, be an increase in that number of full-time positions.

Deputy Colm Burke

With regard to long-term planning over the next five years, where does Mr. Tuohey now see the whole industry going as regards value for what is given by the Department, given that the Department has increased funding over the last number of years? Rásaíocht Con Éireann obviously has a five-year plan. How does Mr. Tuohey see that giving a return for the investment that has been made by the Department?

Mr. John Tuohey

At this moment, we are in the process of finalising a strategic plan for the next five years. I might defer to Mr. Nyhan with regard to that particular issue.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

The next five-year strategic plan is in the course of preparation to be published hopefully early next year. The overall aim of the board is to reduce our dependency on the horse and greyhound fund grant by increasing the commercial activity associated with the industry.

Deputy Colm Burke

With regard to the five-year plan, is there any particular aspect in which Mr. Nyhan feels further improvement can be made as regards return for the Exchequer, in the sense that the Exchequer is investing quite a bit of money? If we take prize money, for instance, 75% of the prize money in real terms is coming from the Exchequer.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

We see potential for increasing sponsorship in the industry as it becomes more popular and as we increase footfall. We also see potential for an increase in income in media streaming in co-mingling and also in general commercial activity, particularly around the use of stadia on days other than when there is racing. We have completed a process of hiring a new commercial manager who will be commencing work in January and who has experience in that field.

Deputy Colm Burke

Are there challenges in the sense that the people involved in the industry have an older age profile? The number of new young people coming into it is extremely small. When Mr. Nyhan looks at that five-year plan, does he believe that can change?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

Yes, we do. We believe that we had an extremely bad period from 2019 forward. Part of that was because of our lack of advertising about what we do and how we care for animals. We believe we have turned that corner and we that we are attracting new people into the industry. The profile of persons who have been appearing at our tracks in recent times is encouragingly much younger.

Deputy Colm Burke

The number of people involved, though, has gone down over the last number of years.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

Historically, it has gone down, yes.

Deputy Colm Burke

The number of people who are involved in training has gone down substantially.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

The number of full-time trainers is sufficient for what we need at the moment. As the Deputy knows, the basis of the industry generally tends to be people with small numbers of greyhounds racing them. The numbers of dogs in our dogs pool are quite encouraging.

Deputy Colm Burke

The Committee of Public Accounts is about value for money. As I said, a large proportion of the prize money in races is coming from the Exchequer in real terms. Does Mr. Nyhan believe looking forward that we can reduce the amount of money from the Exchequer going towards the provision of prize money? I understand that in order to keep the industry going, there has to be prize money. Does Mr. Nyhan believe that over the next five years, however, the funding from the Exchequer can be reduced and that the organisation or whole structure can become far more self-sufficient?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

The basis of the plan will be to reduce our dependency on State funding over the five-year period and longer into the future.

Deputy Colm Burke

When is Mr. Nyhan talking about having that five-year plan completed?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

The draft is in the course of circulation. We would expect to be sending it to the Department if not in December then in January.

Deputy Colm Burke

Would it be signed off by March?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

Easily, yes.

Deputy Colm Burke

Then, the whole process will begin. With regard to that five-year plan, however, what new changes will occur if the Department approves it?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

I cannot pre-empt the contents of the plan because it is still in the course of discussion. However, I can tell the Deputy that the basis of the plan will be to reduce our dependency on State funding over a five and possibly ten-year period.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Nyhan. I call Deputy Verona Murphy.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I want to ask about the third-party debt of €0.5 million that Rásaíocht Con Éireann took over. Who would like to speak to that?

Mr. John Tuohey

Speak to what?

Deputy Verona Murphy

I am referring to note 12 on page 47 of the report. Basically, Rásaíocht Con Éireann signed an agreement with a third party with regard to debt of €0.5 million.

Mr. John Tuohey

Okay. The particular figure is with regard to €250,000 in respect of capital debt forgiven. That was the figure that was written off. It is not a figure of €0.5 million. To explain, that particular item was historical debt that dated back to 2012 and 2013 when expenditure was being incurred in the development of the Clonmel stadium. At that time, it received a grant for the works that were being done. There was a shortfall in the order of €250,000 to complete the project. The particular circumstances are that Rásaíocht Con Éireann owns the greyhound stadium in Clonmel. We lease it to a private company called Davis Road Greyhound Stadium on a long-term sporting lease. The money that was spent at the time on that building is in respect of a building that is ultimately owned by Rásaíocht Con Éireann. It should maybe have been structured differently at the time. Having not being around at the particular time, it was probably treated as a loan to finish the job to try to ensure that all the works were completed.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Do we know why it was written off?

Mr. John Tuohey

It was written off because it was always a capital debt. In 2018, as part of an overall impairment review in respect of all of the stadia owned by Rásaíocht Con Éireann, the value of-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Which review was that?

Mr. John Tuohey

It was an impairment review done in 2018-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

By whom?

Mr. John Tuohey

By Rásaíocht Con Éireann.

Deputy Verona Murphy

It was an internal review.

Mr. John Tuohey

It was with regard to the valuation of the properties. As part of that accounting entry, the value of the Clonmel stadium on our books was written down from €1.8 million to €1 million. This particular capital debt was in respect of the building and that was subsequently-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

It was not written off until 2021.

Mr. John Tuohey

It was fully provided for in 2019. The reason it was not written off until 2021 is that we had some other outstanding debt issues with regard to the Clonmel company. We wanted to incorporate all of the resolution into one particular item. Therefore, it was a historical position but-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

It is very confusing.

Mr. John Tuohey

It is a little confusing because-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

How much was it recommended at? It was obviously €250,000 in 2018.

Mr. John Tuohey

It was €250,000.

Deputy Verona Murphy

It was still €250,000 in 2021, however. What is Mr. Tuohey saying was in between?

Mr. John Tuohey

It could not be capitalised at that particular point because the market value of the property had reduced

Deputy Verona Murphy

Why did it take three years from a recommendation to writing it off in 2021? Mr. Tuohey just said there was something Rásaíocht Con Éireann had to do in between. What was that?

Mr. John Tuohey

It was fully provided for in 2019 as a bad debt. There were some other issues in respect of the normal regular debt repayments which needed to be regularised.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Perhaps Mr. Conroy or somebody from the Department knows the answer to this. Does Rásaíocht Con Éireann have to get permission to do something like that?

Mr. Gordon Conroy

We were kept informed at all stages in relation to this. I note that the Comptroller and Auditor General had no issue with it and were kept informed and had no issue with it in terms of the overall management.

Deputy Verona Murphy

The Department does not have to sanction it.

Mr. Gordon Conroy

There is no sanction required for that.

Deputy Verona Murphy

The protocol was followed in respect of reporting. To which track does this relate?

Mr. John Tuohey

It relates to Clonmel.

Deputy Verona Murphy

What is the term of the lease? When does the lease run out?

Mr. John Tuohey

I think there is about a year and a half left in that lease.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That will be in 2024.

Mr. John Tuohey

Yes. The company has the right to automatically renew because it is a sporting lease that is granted.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Would that be under new terms?

Mr. John Tuohey

No, it would be renewed under the same terms.

Deputy Verona Murphy

What is the point in having the lease run out?

Mr. John Tuohey

It could have been for a longer term but that is when it expires.

Deputy Verona Murphy

How much will it cost to renew the lease?

Mr. John Tuohey

There is a negligible cost.

Deputy Verona Murphy

It is pointless on the basis that it is just a matter of asking how long the party wants the lease for.

Mr. John Tuohey

It will probably renew on a 25-year basis again.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Is it written in stone that Rásaíocht Con Éireann has written off €250,000 and has a lease date that will expire but can do nothing with it on the basis that the incumbent has the right to renew the lease?

Mr. John Tuohey

It is on the basis that it is a sporting lease.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Hearing what I have just said, does that not sound farcical? Does it sound ridiculous or not?

Mr. John Tuohey

We have no reason not to renew the lease.

Deputy Verona Murphy

No, because apparently, from what Mr Tuohey has just said, nobody else can take it and the company has first refusal.

Mr. John Tuohey

It has first refusal.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Unless it does not want to take the track, Rásaíocht Con Éireann can do nothing with it?

Mr. John Tuohey

As far as I understand, that would be the correct position.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Can Mr. Tuohey see what I am saying?

Mr. John Tuohey

The sporting activity continues and, therefore, the incumbent can continue to-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Is Clonmel one of the tracks that the Indecon report recommended-----

Mr. John Tuohey

No.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Which tracks were recommended for closure in that report?

Mr. John Tuohey

The two tracks that were given an extended period of time were Enniscorthy and Youghal.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Are they back in profit now?

Mr. John Tuohey

I do not believe any of the individual tracks would be in a profit situation.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Have they turned around from what was recommended in the Indecon report? I see Mr. Herbert is nodding his head. Could he perhaps elaborate a little?

Mr. Pat Herbert

Only insofar that in the terms of Indecon revisement that was carried out, reviews were carried out by the board in respect of both stadiums recently. Significant inroads have been made-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

How much did the Indecon report cost at the time?

Mr. John Tuohey

I cannot say for definite.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Was it carried out in 2016? Perhaps Rásaíocht Con Éireann will furnish the committee with the details. I read that report and it was absolutely farcical. It bore no relation to the track in Enniscorthy whatsoever. Would it be fair to say that was subsequently proved? I do not know Indecon and I am not casting aspersions on it or Rásaíocht Con Éireann, but I would like to see how much the report cost because it was turned on its head.

Mr. John Tuohey

In respect of the Enniscorthy stadium-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

I raise that one because it is local to me and I am most familiar with it.

Mr. John Tuohey

We engaged with the local management in Enniscorthy and it responded positively.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Rásaíocht Con Éireann very reluctantly engaged with the management in Enniscorthy on the basis that it was going to be a complete closure, whether management liked it or not, until it was able to provide statements, which probably would have caused Rásaíocht Con Éireann legal controversy.

Mr. John Tuohey

I am not aware of any reluctance to engage with them.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I am.

Mr. John Tuohey

I was one of the people who engaged with them at the time and it was a very positive engagement.

Deputy Verona Murphy

It was positive because everything in the Indecon report was rubbish. That is the point. How was it that Indecon did not engage with Enniscorthy? It did engage but it declined to include what was said. The point I am making is that when Rásaíocht Con Éireann as a board spends money on reports like that, questions need to be asked and they need to be reviewed. It does not give any confidence to the sector when reports like that are provided. What recommendations were in the report that Rásaíocht Con Éireann carried out?

Mr. John Tuohey

We have carried out the recommendations in quite a few areas.

Deputy Verona Murphy

How many tracks did Rásaíocht Con Éireann close?

Mr. John Tuohey

In respect of track closures, two were closed at the time, Lifford and Longford.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Were there no arguments of any description in respect of those tracks?

Mr. John Tuohey

Not that I am aware of, no.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Rásaíocht Con Éireann just went ahead and closed them but nothing similar to what happened in Enniscorthy took place. Why did Rásaíocht Con Éireann not close the Enniscorthy track?

Mr. John Tuohey

There was a subsequent review and the recommendation was-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Who carried out the subsequent review?

Mr. John Tuohey

It was carried out by Rásaíocht Con Éireann.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Wait now. Was there a review of the Indecon report?

Mr. John Tuohey

There was an option given that they could be reviewed over a three-year period in order to improve their financial position and that is where the engagement-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

That was the subsequent review then.

Mr. John Tuohey

Yes.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Rásaíocht Con Éireann would be quite happy now.

Mr. John Tuohey

We have had a positive review with Enniscorthy in the past couple of months.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Did Enniscorthy take part in the consultation for Rásaíocht Con Éireann’s strategic plan?

Mr. John Tuohey

Yes.

Deputy Verona Murphy

When did Mr. Tuohey say that strategic plan is due to be issued?

Mr. John Tuohey

It was decided that would happen in early spring.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That would be next year. Is that covering the years 2023 to 2027?

Mr. John Tuohey

Yes, it is a five-year plan.

Chairman

The Deputy is over time. Does she have one more quick question?

Deputy Verona Murphy

No, I will come back in later if that is okay.

Chairman

The Deputy is seeking a copy of the Indecon report.

Deputy Verona Murphy

No, I have it and have read it.

Chairman

It would be useful, nonetheless, for the committee to have a copy.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Yes. I am looking for the cost of the report.

Chairman

The Deputy expressed the view that the report is rubbish.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Yes, that is my personal view, contrary to the evidence I have heard.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I believe this report may have been covered in a previous meeting.

Chairman

I ask that the Rásaíocht Con Éireann’s backroom team find details on the cost of that Indecon report before the end of the meeting.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Can we also ask for a copy of the Jim Power report?

Chairman

Yes. We will take a break now and when we resume the next speaker will be Deputy Carthy.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Will there be a second round?

Chairman

There will be a second round and a third one if the Deputy so wishes.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

There will be plenty of time then.

Sitting suspended at 10.58 a.m. and resumed at 11.10 a.m.

Chairman

Before we move on, I believe Mr. Tuohey has figures for us relating to the reports.

Mr. John Tuohey

The figure for the Indecon report is €184,000 in total. The figure for the 2021 Jim Power report is €12,300.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Tuohey.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Did the Indecon report relate to 2016?

Mr. John Tuohey

In December 2019, payment of €174,000 was made. In November 2020, there was a final payment of €10,000.

Deputy Verona Murphy

It went on for some time.

Mr. John Tuohey

Prior to that, yes.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I thank Mr. Tuohey.

Deputy Matt Carthy

I welcome our guests and thank them for attending. We invited the then CEO and the board to a meeting in early September, but we were told that it would not be possible because the Irish Greyhound Derby semi-finals and final clashed with the invitation, even though those took place on Monday nights. We learned shortly afterwards that the CEO had resigned. She had only been in place since January. Why did she resign?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

The short answer is that I do not know other than that she informed us that she had been offered another business opportunity, which she decided to take up.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Mr. Nyhan does not believe that it had to do with internal difficulties within the board.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

I am not aware of any internal difficulty. We were working well with the CEO.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Did exit interviews take place?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

No.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Was any sought?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

No.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Greyhound Racing Ireland had a CEO who came on board in January and had made a strong impression in terms of her views on the need to reform the sector and the board, particularly as regards financial issues. Eight months later, she announced that she was leaving for another opportunity, but no one on the board decided it would be a good idea to talk to her and find out why she was taking that course of action.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

The CEO worked with us on the transition and stayed with us until we made an interim appointment. There were no issues between us and the CEO. We respected her position.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Okay. When will the next CEO be in place?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

The process has commenced. The job was advertised and there were 20 plus applicants. A short list of eight were interviewed. There will be a further set of interviews with four candidates, which are to take place before the end of this month.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Who dealt with the initial applications and reduced them to the short list of eight?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

Members of the board.

Deputy Matt Carthy

As in, a board sub-committee.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

A sub-committee of the board. A separate sub-committee of the board handled the first round of interviews. Another separate sub-committee of the board, with an external component, will handle the final interviews.

Deputy Matt Carthy

No person will be on any two strands.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

I will, for continuity.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Mr. Nyhan will be on all strands.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

Yes.

Deputy Matt Carthy

The board is now at the point of the final interviews.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

Yes.

Deputy Matt Carthy

What is the remuneration of the CEO's post?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

I believe it is approximately €130,000. There is a band within which it falls.

Deputy Matt Carthy

It is not insignificant. It is a well-remunerated position for someone to leave after eight months. I am not aware of any public announcement of the previous CEO taking on a major new role.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

Nor am I, but that is the position.

Deputy Matt Carthy

I have previously discussed the next matter with the witnesses at this committee or at the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine. I do not understand why Greyhound Racing Ireland accepts the funding model to which it is tied. We could debate whether it gets too much or too little and people will have their own views on that, but the funding it receives annually is directly linked to what another organisation receives. I asked the Comptroller and Auditor General whether there is anything even remotely similar anywhere else in the public finances, but he could not think of any. Why has the board accepted this position and not sought to have it changed?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

I do not understand. Changed in what way?

Deputy Matt Carthy

Greyhound Racing Ireland's funding comes from the Horse and Greyhound Racing Fund.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

It is a percentage of the fund.

Deputy Matt Carthy

A precise percentage of the fund. Every year, Greyhound Racing Ireland gets 20% of that fund regardless of what plans, proposals or ambitions it has for reform, expansion or reorganisation. Greyhound Racing Ireland's funding depends on what another organisation is getting. I do not know how Mr. Nyhan as the chair or how the board have not been kicking up holy hell about this.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

Both organisations are dependent on what the fund is, given that there is a split between us. It is a statutory split. We accept the percentage that we are getting and are grateful for the State's support.

Deputy Matt Carthy

The support Greyhound Racing Ireland gets could decrease if Horse Racing Ireland, HRI, brought a bad proposal to the Department and the Department decided that, since HRI got €70 million in 2022, it only needed €60 million next year. Automatically, Greyhound Racing Ireland's funding would be reduced. If the Department decided that the greyhound racing sector needed to be maintained at €18 million per annum, HRI would get €70 million even though there was an adjudication that it only needed €60 million. Does Mr. Nyhan not see the problem?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

This matter is dealt with at departmental level. My understanding is that each organisation submits its proposals, budgets and requirements to the Minister and that the combination of these determines what the fund is.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Explain to me how that works. Does Greyhound Racing Ireland produce a proposal annually?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

Yes. We submit a proposal to the Department on what we believe our funding requirements will be for the following year. We meet the Department and our figures are tested.

Deputy Matt Carthy

When Mr. Nyhan says "tested"-----

Mr. Frank Nyhan

That forms part of the process.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Greyhound Racing Ireland will sit across from officials and they will say that it is asking for €21 million. How much did it ask for for 2023?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

The Minister is also involved in that process.

Deputy Matt Carthy

How much did Greyhound Racing Ireland seek for 2023? My understanding is that it has been allocated €18.2 million for 2023.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

I cannot remember what the figure in the proposal was. We sought more than €18.2 million.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Does anyone know how much Greyhound Racing Ireland sought?

Mr. John Tuohey

I do not have the exact figure, but it was not too much more than that. It was in or around that amount.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Thankfully, the Department is present. I am sure its officials will remember how much was sought.

Mr. Gordon Conroy

I will briefly go through the process.

Deputy Matt Carthy

No. I just want to know how much was sought.

Mr. Gordon Conroy

I do not have that figure, but there were broad discussions.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Mr. Conroy does not have it. Does Mr. Nyhan not believe this is a bit strange? I am asking him about his organisation's submission on how much it felt it needed in State funding for next year. Greyhound Racing Ireland has been allocated €18.2 million - that is subject to Dáil approval, which has not been given yet - yet Mr. Nyhan does not know how much it wanted.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

I believe it was approximately €1 million more than that, but I do not have the figure with me.

Mr. John Tuohey

We can get the committee the figure.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Greyhound Racing Ireland presented a plan for next year that was dependent on a further €1 million being allocated.

There is a proposal now from the Department for €1 million less than what Greyhound Racing Ireland needed. What will lose out? What was in the organisation's plans that will not be achieved next year as a result of receiving €1 million less than was sought?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

The budget will be determined by the amount of money ultimately allocated by the Dáil, as to what we will do with next year's money.

Deputy Matt Carthy

When bringing forward the submission for a proposal, does Greyhound Racing Ireland outline on a monthly basis how it plans to expend it in the next year?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

It is on an annual basis.

Deputy Matt Carthy

So it is for the year. It is a flat rate saying this is how much will be paid on salaries, welfare, prize money, etc. Then Greyhound Racing Ireland gets its allocation, so then it does up a new-----

Mr. Frank Nyhan

Then we prepare our budget for the year.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Okay. This is a unique situation. Does Mr. Nyhan understand how it makes no sense to say his organisation sought a certain amount, got less and is taking it on the chin? No other organisation comes before an Oireachtas committee and says it got €1 million less than sought, but that is life.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

That is a matter entirely for the Oireachtas.

Deputy Matt Carthy

So Mr. Nyhan would have no difficulty if the Oireachtas decided to halve the funding.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

If the Oireachtas decided to halve the funding, we would have to live with that decision.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Okay. I will go the Department. What evaluations are happening in relation to the horse and greyhound fund? Does the Department still believe that it is appropriate to allocate funding to either organisation in a way that one is dependent on the other?

Mr. Gordon Conroy

We sought advice from the Attorney General in 2020, and the advice was to continue in this way using the horse and greyhound fund. The 80:20 split is a policy issue. I understand there are no plans to change that-----

Deputy Matt Carthy

Was the advice from the Attorney General in respect of tying both organisations to each other or in respect of how the horse and greyhound fund is allocated via Dáil approval on an annual basis?

Mr. Gordon Conroy

It was more in relation to how it is allocated. The 80:20 split is a policy issue. I understand there are no plans to change that.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Okay.

Chairman

There have been a number of reports: the INDECON report; the Power report; and another one. Is that correct? Another report was published in September 2017.

Mr. John Tuohey

That was an older INDECON report, I believe.

Chairman

Was an IGB business model analysis carried out by Preferred Results Limited?

Mr. John Tuohey

Yes.

Chairman

How much did that cost?

Mr. John Tuohey

I do not have a figure to hand. I can get it for the Chairman.

Chairman

After the end of the meeting, Mr. Tuohey can come back with that.

Mr. John Tuohey

Yes.

Chairman

Am I correct in saying Rásaíocht Con Éireann is facing legal action from the company it paid to procure that 2017 report?

Mr. John Tuohey

There is a High Court case.

Chairman

How much is being budgeted for that legal action?

Mr. John Tuohey

There is provision in place for it but our understanding is it will be covered fully by insurance.

Chairman

Why is Rásaíocht Con Éireann opposing that report being published?

Mr. John Tuohey

I do not think we prevented it. I defer to Mr. Nyhan on that because it predates me.

Chairman

Maybe Mr. Nyhan can confirm this for me. His organisation is being sued by that company for defamation. Why is it opposing the publication of that report?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

We are not. That report is in the public domain. There was controversy about that report but it is in the public domain. That is why we are being sued.

Chairman

Do the witnesses disagree with the main findings of that report?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

Yes.

Chairman

What does it disagree with?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

That is the subject of the defamation proceedings.

Chairman

What is the headline? I do not want Mr. Nyhan to go into detail because there are legal proceedings. What is the issue?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

The issue is whether or not there were 6,000 dogs being disposed of on an annual basis.

Chairman

Was a further report published recently by Preferred Results outlining that the State is essentially subsidising the British greyhound industry?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

I have seen a report. That is not our report.

Chairman

I accept that but Mr. Nyhan is aware there is another report.

Mr. John Tuohey

We are aware of the existence of that report. It criticised the findings of the Jim Power report.

Chairman

Who commissioned the latest report? If it was not the witnesses' organisation, who was it commissioned by?

Mr. John Tuohey

It was not. I am not aware of what body commissioned the report.

Chairman

But you are aware there is one.

Mr. John Tuohey

Yes. We respect the report prepared by Jim Power, who is an eminent economist.

Chairman

In the report by Preferred Results, one of the critical findings of the analysis was as follows. This is according to the information available to me. If it is wrong it is wrong. It was that "the IGB is not actually a racing-centric organisation and that the primary focus of the organisation is actually on Breeding. That focus causes some 15,000 pups to be bred for racing each year, for a Dog Pool with approximately 3,600 dogs." Do the witnesses disagree with that?

Mr. John Tuohey

That is the one we spoke about earlier.

Mr. Pat Herbert

The new Preferred Results report-----

Chairman

There is a statement in that report. It is stated as a fact. Which of those facts does Mr. Herbert disagree with? "That focus causes some 15,000 pups to be bred for racing each year, for a Dog Pool with approximately 3,600 dogs." Is that correct?

Mr. Pat Herbert

With due respect, that statement is drawn from the analogy of the number of greyhounds purported to be euthanised in the industry. That is the subject of the defamation case. I would prefer not to comment on it.

Chairman

Do the witnesses agree with the assertion that Rásaíocht Con Éireann is not a racing-centric organisation and the primary focus is on breeding?

Mr. Pat Herbert

Greyhound Racing Ireland is chiefly involved in greyhound racing under the provisions of the Act.

Chairman

So Mr. Herbert disagrees with that. It went on to say that in excess 6,250 dogs - this is 2017 and my understanding is not much has changed since - are exported to England, Scotland and Wales for prices less than 50% of the production cost, a fact that has enabled Irish greyhounds to take over 83% of the British pool of dogs. Is that correct?

Mr. Pat Herbert

The percentage quoted in relation to the percentage of the British pool being of Irish origin is correct.

Chairman

It is 83%.

Mr. Pat Herbert

Correct.

Chairman

We are breeding 83% of the pool of racing dogs in Britain.

Mr. Pat Herbert

We have been for a number of years.

Chairman

It further stated: "The ... problem emerges with the lack of clarity around what happens to some 6,000 pups each year which [have not been] accounted for". Earlier Deputy Hourigan dealt with this. I welcome the traceability system. That is a positive step. It is important that the industry or sector - "sector" is a better word; "industry" is not good when talking about dogs - should have its reputation protected. I do not have a problem with it once animal welfare is looked after. We want it to be successful. The traceability is there from 12 weeks on. Do the witnesses accept there is an issue with traceability prior to 12 weeks?

Mr. Pat Herbert

Absolutely. That was the chief impetus of the traceability system. It was taken in the context of "Prime Time" programmes and Preferred Results. We did not have an accurate track of greyhounds in this country prior to that. Since the traceability system was launched, we have.

A considerable amount of work was put into the system in the two years in advance of rolling it out in January of last year. The board, as of last month, has approved further work on the system for expansion in 2023

Mr. John Tuohey

Rásaíocht Con Éireann makes no direct payments to anyone for breeding greyhounds. Our payments are made through prize money which is to the racing greyhounds. I find it very difficult to understand why one would breed greyhounds and sell them to the UK at a loss.

Chairman

The sector receives funding from the 80:20 horse and greyhound racing fund.

Mr. John Tuohey

It is for racing greyhounds.

Chairman

That was disputed in this report though. I think the witnesses would accept that. The report outlined that the root causes of the mass culling of pups needed to be addressed and that it could threaten the industry. Do you accept there is an issue to be dealt with?

Mr. Pat Herbert

I will interject because I knew the Chairman would go down this road. I do not accept that there is mass culling of pups in this country. I fundamentally do not accept that. The traceability system and our increased care and welfare programme have addressed many of the issues. I am not saying there were not issues in the past but we have made significant inroads. I have mentioned before that we are not a perfect industry. We have made considerable inroads in the area of care and welfare. It is no accident that it is the chief focus of our current board. It is also the chief focus of the strategic plan to which the chairman alluded earlier on. It is to the forefront of this. If this is industry is to have any longevity, let there be no doubt among the members, the clear war chest of the industry has to be the care and welfare of the greyhounds in this country.

Chairman

I do not think we would dispute that.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

I wanted to say what Mr. Herbert said in that there is no mass culling of greyhounds in this country, nor is there any evidence of such.

Chairman

However, there is a considerable difference between the figures that are produced and the figures that wind up in the pool. It is a percentage.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

There is not. We can account for all greyhounds.

Chairman

Does that include greyhounds under 12 weeks?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

We cannot do anything for the first 12 weeks but from the time from when they are microchipped, we can account for all greyhounds. That is the whole point of the traceability system.

Chairman

You are saying you can only account for those. I understand you cannot account for greyhounds from the moment of birth. You are telling me you can account for all greyhounds but we know you cannot account for anything up to 12 weeks. Are the 12 weeks statutory? Can it go beyond 12 weeks? Can an owner let it run to 13 or 14 weeks? Is there flexibility or is set at 12 weeks?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

I do not know the answer to that but I think it is 12 weeks.

Chairman

Will you give me a "Yes" or "No"?

Mr. William Fitzgerald

Microchippping legislation stipulates that dogs must be microchipped between the ages of-----

Chairman

By 12 weeks.

Mr. William Fitzgerald

-----eight and 12 weeks.

Chairman

That is clear.

Mr. Pat Herbert

It is important to note that the traceability system refers to racing greyhounds in this country for which we are responsible for by statute. It does not relate to coursing greyhounds. However, we capture information on whelping; location; controller; age; sex; and microchip to age two. We also capture information on the death, sale and export of greyhounds and their retirement as a pet and potential for racing. We have the ability to edit details such as change of location, loss, theft and provision of a routine update of when they are kennels or transfer location. More importantly, there is a provision that anybody who does not comply with the updates that are required of traceability is immediately suspended from entering greyhounds at tracks and does not get the option to draw down any past prize money won.

Chairman

The report was commissioned by your board, Mr. Nyhan. Are you concerned about the fact that you have basically rejected the report and now face having to defend a legal action. Are you concerned about that?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

I have no problem defending the legal action. I am quite happy to stand over what I said.

Chairman

Are you concerned about the fact that you commissioned this report and find yourselves in a situation where you face legal action by the body that carried out the report? Is it worrying for the board?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

I do not think it is because what we are being sued for is what we said before the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine which is that we do not agree with the results of that report. The board of which I was a member handled that report very badly. The board received a commissioned report which it did not pass on to the Department or make public. It should have done so. That has been ventilated here previously. That aspect of it is indefensible. The figures in the Preferred Results report are not correct as far as I and the board are concerned. That is why we introduced a traceability system which establishes beyond doubt that the assumptions made by Preferred Results are incorrect.

Chairman

I welcome the improvement in the traceability system. The Minister has a copy of that report. Is that right?

Mr. Gordon Conroy

No, it is not. We have only seen extracts of that report.

Chairman

Why has the Minister's office not received that report?

Mr. Gordon Conroy

It has not been released to us. I do not know whether that is linked to the legal proceedings. We have just seen extracts of it. It would be unfair of us to comment on it.

Chairman

Are you saying that Rásaíocht Con Éireann has not given the Department the full report?

Mr. Gordon Conroy

That is my understanding.

Chairman

Why is that, Mr. Nyhan?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

I do not know. That should not be the case.

Chairman

You are chairman of the board.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

I did not realise the Department did not have it. This issue goes back to 2019. Originally my board was at fault in not making that available to the Department. I thought it had since done so.

Chairman

You have been up-front about that but we are going into 2023. Why has that report not been given to the Department?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

I do not know.

Chairman

Will you check with your board? Have members of the board disagreed with giving the report?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

It is nothing to do with the board. The board has no issue with the Department having that report.

Chairman

Will you give an assurance that the Department will have a copy of it?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

Yes, absolutely.

Chairman

Will you, Mr. Conroy, ensure that the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, sees this report?

Mr. Gordon Conroy

I will indeed. There are two Preferred Results report as I understand.

Chairman

That is correct.

Mr. Gordon Conroy

Maybe I am misunderstanding and have mislead you, Chair. We have seen extracts of one report and sight of the other. I apologise if I have misled you on that. I will make sure we have both of them.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

We do not have the second report. It is not ours.

Deputy Alan Kelly

When one goes through the accounts, it is very difficult to break down the welfare spend. Some €524,000 went into the greyhound care fund in 2021. That is a decrease of €668,000 from 2020. There was €464,000 and €235,000 for both years for the retired greyhound fund. Will you provide us with a simple note for the three years to break down how the care fund is funded and managed? How does the money go in and out? I cannot figure it out and there seems to be a considerable decrease from one year to the other. That cannot explained by Covid because care has to happen regardless of Covid.

Mr. John Tuohey

Approximately €1 million of what was categorised under the care fund for 2020 was a direct subvention to racing greyhounds during the period in which they could not run.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Will you break down the money in and out for 2019, 2020 and 2021 and how the fund is funded?

Mr. John Tuohey

Yes.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I understand Mr. Conroy became assistant secretary recently. I was looking up the Department's organisational structure and he is not on it. I was wondering how that was. He may wish to update it. Under what section of the Department does the greyhound industry fall? I cannot find it.

Mr. Gordon Conroy

The Deputy is right. I was recently appointed as chief financial officer and assistant secretary with responsibility for the finance, audit and accounts functions including certain State bodies.

Deputy Alan Kelly

As regards the whole issue of greyhounds and the greyhound industry, is that within the Department?

Mr. Gordon Conroy

The oversight of Rasaíocht Con Éireann is in our area of responsibility.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Can Mr. Conroy provide information for me on dates and attendees of all meetings between the Department and Rasaíocht Con Éireann and how often they have discussed welfare at their Min-MAC meetings, since this Government came into office? I want information on dates and attendees of every meeting between the Department and the organisation, as well as a copy of any Min-MAC minutes relating to welfare within the greyhound industry.

Mr. Gordon Conroy

Of course. I will make one brief point in relation to that, which is that care and welfare is a key part of all discussions we have with them. However, I will provide the Deputy with full details on that.

Deputy Alan Kelly

We will find that out from the Min-MAC minutes. That is good. I have two more quick questions. There are four private tracks and the rest are publicly owned. Is that correct?

Mr. Gordon Conroy

Yes.

Deputy Alan Kelly

In relation to private tracks and in respect of subsidies for private tracks versus the money that is sent into public tracks, can we get the breakdown of how much funding and how many employees, both full-time and part-time, there are across every track in Ireland? I ask this so that we can see that subsidies or moneys that are given to each track, whether it is public or private, as well as the number of employees. That information would be interesting.

My last question is in relation to attendance. This is probably a question for the chairman or for the chief executive. The targeted attendance for race meetings is 630,000. Now that we have come out of Covid-19, do they think this will be achievable?

Another question that I get asked a lot is that there seems to be a huge number of concessionary tickets when it comes to greyhound venues. The witnesses have produced figures regarding revenues and attendance records but if they deduct the concessions, what would they then be? Can they provide us with a table on that per year, if possible, particularly in relation to Shelbourne Park for the last three years?

My last question is probably to the chairman and is on the issue of greyhound racing and coursing. Are there any plans to try to draw a distinction between the two? That is my last question. I think it would be supportive of the greyhound racing fraternity and the ethos of that, as well as the issue of people attending races and community groups and families attending race groups and not being concerned about welfare. Has any work been done on that or is it in gestation?

Mr. Pat Herbert

The provisions of the Greyhound Industry Act 1958 recognise the close association between coursing and greyhound racing. The industry itself has evolved significantly over the years-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

Hence the question.

Mr. Pat Herbert

The two have diverged in separate ways along their own ways. Both industries are regulated but we have diverged. The strategic focus of Greyhound Racing Ireland has been in developing its own industry from a regulatory perspective. Many of the legacy issues, such as consent to exclusion orders and issues like that were contained in the 1958 Act and involved the direct input of the Irish Coursing Club in such regulatory matters, have been dispensed with and addressed in the Greyhound Racing Act 2019. Section 28 additionally provides for the traceability system, which was heretofore unheard of. All such matters had been previously managed by the Irish Coursing Club from a registration perspective. The 2019 Act gives us the statutory basis to do what the Deputy is talking about-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

Is Rasaíocht Con Éireann going to do it?

Mr. Pat Herbert

Absolutely, yes. We have to do it.

Chairman

I call Deputy Hourigan.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I want to cover the issues of traceability and the current strategic plan. We have already established that the traceability system covers racing greyhounds. Is that correct? Correct. We have also just established that the greyhound racing industry produces a large number of dogs that do not necessarily end up racing. Would it not be more appropriate to have a traceability system that covers all non-coursing greyhounds? I am short on time so quick answers would be helpful.

Mr. Pat Herbert

The traceability system separates coursing and racing greyhounds by way of a sire. It is a safe-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

My question is about how the definition of a racing greyhound will necessarily omit certain dogs that are there and are living as a result of the greyhound industry. Would the definition of non-coursing greyhounds be more appropriate for the traceability scheme?

Mr. Pat Herbert

Well-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

The answer can be a “Yes” or a “No”.

Mr. Pat Herbert

I do know. There are all different sorts of classification of greyhounds, such as retired greyhounds and pet greyhounds. There are greyhounds in this country do that do not belong to coursing or track.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

There are very few.

Mr. Pat Herbert

There are very few, but they are there. Once a racing greyhound-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

For the sake of clarity and traceability, the numbers that are there that are not vested at their beginnings in the greyhound industry or the coursing industry are minuscule. For clarity and for traceability and to do what it says on the tin in the spirit of traceability, would it not be more appropriate to define them as non-coursing greyhounds?

Mr. Pat Herbert

I put it in the context that-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

We have very little time.

Mr. Pat Herbert

Okay, and I am doing my best.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Okay.

Mr. Pat Herbert

I am doing my best. I will put my answer in the context of the fact that we have a traceability system that is specifically designed for racing greyhounds. The Deputy may or may not be aware that the Irish Coursing Club is doing something similar for coursing greyhounds.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Yes, for coursing greyhounds but my point is that both those industries produce dogs as a result of their activities that do not end up coursing or running in a race and this traceability system does not cover them.

Mr. Pat Herbert

It covers the racing greyhounds.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Yes.

Mr. Pat Herbert

It will not cover the whole-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

So, is it the case that it does not cover all the dogs that are produced and are living due to the greyhound racing industry?

Mr. Pat Herbert

Yes.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Is it the case that the general public has no access to that traceability system?

Mr. Pat Herbert

No, access is given by way of an ICC number, a trainer’s number and a password.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Authorised users have a username and a password, and they can access the traceability scheme but authorised users can only see their own greyhounds.

Mr. Pat Herbert

That is correct.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Is the Department happy with that level of transparency in the traceability scheme?

Mr. Gordon Conroy

The move towards including coursing greyhounds is something we would welcome and-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

My question is about the transparency of traceability.

Mr. Gordon Conroy

Yes. I would like to refer to veterinary colleagues in relation to that because the traceability of animals and so on would be in the remit of that side and I can follow up on that.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I would put it to the Department that it is a basic principle of a traceability scheme that we all know what is happening. If I cannot look up a dog and check what has happened to them, it is problematic. It is not truly transparent, and it is not something that we can rely on.

I want to go back to the numbers that the chairman raised because we have established in earlier contributions that on average every year, 14,000 to 15,000 pups are born. Mr. Herbert told me earlier that 4,500 of those go to racing, 5,800 to go export and 2,000 are rehomed. That leaves 2,500 that are unaccounted for.

Mr. Pat Herbert

I think that I said that approximately 4,500 are actively entered into the racing pool.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Yes, but that still leaves 2,500 that are unaccounted for. Is Mr. Herbert saying that are 2,500 that are retired and not rehomed?

Mr. Pat Herbert

I put that in the context of it being a fluid model that changes on a month-to-month basis by greyhounds that come into the system, that are exported or that are retired. It changes and it is a fluid model.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Is it not the case that those retired greyhounds are mostly in the rehomed number?

Mr. Pat Herbert

Correct.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

So, where are the other 2,500? I know that earlier Mr. Herbert said that they fell over on the farm and I know that he thinks that I am a townie but come on.

Mr. Pat Herbert

Respectfully, if the Deputy is going to quote me, I would rather that she would quote me correctly.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Mr. Herbert said that things happen on farms. As much as I live in town, I do not think that that could account for 2,500 dogs.

Mr. Pat Herbert

It is no different than with any with any other pet or dogs. There are naturally certain death rates with animals.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Okay, but he has just said that there is no culling, that there is no system of culling and that there is no accepted practice of culling in the industry. It is a simple question, therefore. Where are the 2,500 dogs?

Mr. Pat Herbert

People breed and raise greyhounds in this country with the specific purpose of having winners on the track. Greyhounds are not bred to be culled in this country.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

No, that does not tell me about where the 2,500 dogs are. I will move on because I want to get to the strategic plan, and I only have one minute left.

Chairman

The Deputy can take her time. She should try to get an answer to her question.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Okay. Where are the 2,500 dogs, then?

Mr. William Fitzgerald

May I jump in?

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Yes. I am using the numbers that Mr. Herbert gave during the course of this session.

Mr. William Fitzgerald

In relation to retired dogs, there is a difference, because there are dogs that are in the active pool and there are dogs that race. It is a racing pool, so when a greyhound is entered for a race, it enters the racing pool, but when it races it comes off it. It does not stay in it until it is re-entered to the next race.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Is Mr. Fitzgerald telling me that an 18-month old dog that runs a race on a Tuesday is registered on the traceability scheme as retired on a Thursday and then is back racing from Saturday? Is that what he is describing?

Mr. William Fitzgerald

No, I am not.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Then I am going to put the retired dogs into the 2,000 that get rehomed.

Mr. William Fitzgerald

That dog is then classified on our system as "active" but not in the racing pool. Approximately 6,500 dogs are active.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Is Mr. Fitzgerald telling me that the 4,500 number is not indicative of how many dogs are in the racing pool in Ireland? A couple of years ago it was 3,500. Mr. Fitzgerald now seems to be saying it is in the region of 6,000. That is a completely different number from the one he provided in the report.

Mr. William Fitzgerald

That is in the active pool. That is dogs that have raced or trialled in an RCÉ stadium in the past six weeks.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

In the last six weeks.

Mr. William Fitzgerald

The last 42 days. Owners are required to provide an update every 42 days.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

What is the classification for those that are not active? Surely it cannot be that they are retired.

Mr. William Fitzgerald

There are a number of categories on the system. There are dogs that have been retired, are dead or are essentially inactive.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

How many dogs are inactive?

Mr. Pat Herbert

I do not have the figure.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

The witnesses look at the numbers every day. I am sure there is a ballpark figure. Is it 2,500?

Mr. Pat Herbert

I can give the Deputy the exact figure from the traceability system from its first year of operation, 2021. The data set includes greyhounds that raced, trialled and were microchipped from 2021 on. Some 23,760 greyhounds were subject to traceability in 2021. Of those, 18,538 were active, in other words, raced or trialled, and 5,222 were inactive.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

To be clear, we are producing 14,000 pups a year and there are 23,000-----

Mr. Pat Herbert

The data set includes greyhounds that were bred previously - one year before, two years before and three years before. That is the important point. It includes greyhounds that raced - appeared at a track - and were bred many years before.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Okay.

Mr. Pat Herbert

That is why the figure is big.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Mr. Herbert has still not given me the number I was looking for, that is, the number of inactive dogs.

Mr. Pat Herbert

It was 5,222 inactive dogs, which includes dogs that were exported, retired, were rehomed or died.

Chairman

There will be a third round.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I want to cover the strategic plan. If that includes export and the figure is 5,000 dogs, we have already established that the export numbers are much higher than that. That does not add up. I am asking Mr. Herbert where the 2,500 dogs are.

Mr. Pat Herbert

The traceability system does not cover greyhounds that were bred in previous years and did not race or trial on track in 2021 but were subsequently exported. That is important to say.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

It does not cover the export numbers. Does Rasaíocht Con Éireann not use the export numbers in its business case? Mr. Herbert has just said the export numbers are fundamental to the business model.

Mr. Pat Herbert

We had to make a data set for traceability, and it includes greyhounds that raced or trialled from January 2021 and greyhounds that were microchipped from January 2021. That is where the traceability starts.

Chairman

I suggest that Mr. Herbert furnish the committee with a detailed breakdown of the traceability system for 2022 to help the Deputy and the committee to understand it. We are moving towards the end of the year now.

Mr. Pat Herbert

Of course, Chair.

Chairman

We would like to get exact figures for each category. Would that be helpful for Deputy Hourigan?

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Yes.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I have a question for Mr. Tuohey. I said the initial figure for debt owing for Clonmel was €500,000. We have the capital debt, but then there was a figure of €277,000 that reduced to €212,000 in 2021. Does that have to be paid before the lease expires or before it is renewed?

Mr. John Tuohey

There is an ongoing debt repayment.

Deputy Verona Murphy

There is a roll-over.

Mr. John Tuohey

There are a number of elements to the Clonmel debt. In order to create a solid repayment schedule, there is an agreement relating to a telecoms mast that is in the greyhound stadium. The income from the mast was originally going to the Davis Road Greyhound Stadium company. That was legally reassigned to RCÉ. The income from that is €18,000 per annum. Over a ten-year period, that was to take care of €180,000 of the debt. It was ring-fenced as part of an overall agreement.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Every year, €18,000 will come off that until the debt is cleared.

Mr. John Tuohey

Absolutely. It is guaranteed.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I must be honest that I am not happy with the fact that the company contracted a mast on RCÉ's property.

Mr. John Tuohey

It was valid. It was legally entitled to do so under the lease.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I do not think Mr. Nyhan did that lease. Thank God for that.

I want to come back to the issue of the CEO. There is no point in beating around the bush. The elephant in the room is that there have been a number of rolling CEOs and nobody lasts for very long. It is an industry that is just like Horse Racing Ireland, HRI, when it comes in here, in that the whole industry is based on integrity. The integrity of the industry is what allows the funding and the transparency but when we have CEOs who only last for six months, it does not bode well for the sector as a whole. What concerns me is that when Deputy Carthy asked Mr. Nyhan if an exit interview was done, the answer was "No". Mr. Nyhan is a professional man - I was in that profession for eight years - and nobody could credibly say they did not carry out an exit interview with a CEO who only lasted six months. Is there a reason he did not do an exit interview?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

No, I thought, and I still think, I had very good, positive relations with the outgoing CEO. I was on the committee that appointed her. I was chairman at the time. I thought we worked very well together. I was very disappointed when she left, but I must say she co-operated fully in the handover. She was present and assisted until Mr. Tuohey took over. There was no issue between us.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I accept that, but what I am asking is why Mr. Nyhan did not think to ask her why she was leaving.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

She told me why she was leaving. It is because she got an opportunity she wanted to take up. I have to respect that.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That was a kind of an exit interview, even if it was probably only a chat. Is the reality that she had no issue and that the job she was taking was paying more or the RCÉ was not her cup of tea?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

I do not know. All I know is that as far as I was concerned, we were working very well together and she was doing a good job.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I know that, but Mr. Nyhan is the common denominator between the two. How is he going to know whether he will make the same mistake again when he does the next interview?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

I am not sure I can characterise it as a mistake.

Deputy Verona Murphy

If it happens again this time next year, I will categorise it for him.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

In fairness, the previous chief executive, Mr. Ger Dollard, was in the role for four years. It is not fair to characterise him as a six-month CEO.

Deputy Verona Murphy

No, but there has been quite a number over a ten-year period. It is a concern for me when people in the sector say that it is an issue. What they frequently say is that they need somebody with experience of the sector as the CEO.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

It is also a concern for me because I am a non-executive chairman and I would like to stay as a non-executive chairman. The vast sums of money the Minister pays me do not mean that I can be an executive chairman. I am as interested as everybody else in getting a person into this role. We have gone through two rounds of a very vigorous interview process and I am pretty confident that we will find ourselves with a very good CEO before the end of the year.

Deputy Verona Murphy

My concern is we have one who lasts. My point is whether Mr. Nyhan takes on board that there should be someone with sectoral experience in the role. Before I became a politician, I came from a very difficult sector. It is a role that I can say here and now that nobody understands if they are not in the sector. I refer to road transport. One could not come in as a CEO with a business degree and just operate it. One must have an understanding of the sector. I am not saying that is the case; Mr. Nyhan's own patrons are saying it.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

It would be helpful for a new chief executive to have some knowledge of the industry. I would say to Deputy Murphy, however, that Ger Dollard, who did a very good job and I do not think anybody would characterise him as other than a good chief executive, had no experience of the industry before he joined. It really does depend on the character of the individual and their capacity to learn and get involved.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I know that but if we consider the number of reports that were carried out under Mr. Dollard's tenure, he might look at that differently.

I am not trying to be difficult.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

We will have to disagree.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I do not mean it that way. What I mean is that difficulties arose in that period.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

We had the RTÉ programme during that period but in fairness, I thought Mr. Dollard dealt with that very well.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That was before my time so I will not comment. Regarding one thing that I thought was very favourable to RCÉ, how did the pilot programme it ran relating to a subsidy for kennels go? Was it subscribed to, oversubscribed or undersubscribed?

Mr. William Fitzgerald

I will take that one. It was very well subscribed. It was launched on 1 July this year.

Deputy Verona Murphy

For the benefit of the committee, Mr. Fitzgerald might give us a flavour of what it was about.

Mr. William Fitzgerald

The concept behind the scheme was that there was a grant of €2,500 available to kennel owners. There was a strong welfare basis behind it. When kennel owners applied, kennels were inspected. If no issues were encountered during the initial welfare inspection, they were given the green light to proceed with the works required. Again, there was an emphasis that the works to be undertaken had to have a strong welfare benefit. It could not just be for want-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Maintenance.

Mr. William Fitzgerald

It could not be maintenance or the installation of a swimming pool. The work to be carried out had to be of genuine welfare benefit to these animals.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Does Mr. Fitzgerald have a figure as to how many subscribed?

Mr. William Fitzgerald

At last count, I think about 58 subscribed. Not everybody was successful. As the Deputy can imagine, a number of people were disappointed and unsuccessful but by and large, the uptake of the scheme was quite good and it was quite popular.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Was that a once-off or does Greyhound Racing Ireland intend to run it again?

Mr. William Fitzgerald

The intention is to make it an annual scheme. It will be run again in 2023.

Deputy Verona Murphy

From a welfare perspective, it probably is something that should be continued but with inspection levels that warrant-----

Mr. William Fitzgerald

Absolutely, it must be entirely inspection-led. Once there are no issues welfare-wise, we are happy to help these owners.

Chairman

If the Deputy has more questions, she can come back in a few moments.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I am afraid I have to leave as I have speaking time in the Dáil.

Chairman

Parliamentary duties.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I am afraid so. We look forward to the new CEO next year.

Chairman

Greyhound Racing Ireland has supplied some information around turnover, attendance and various other figures. It appears there has been a significant drop-off since 2010. I would like to see the graph going the other way. It is an important sector. The turnover in 2010 was €33 million. Granted, the figures for 2020 and 2021 are not real figures because of Covid but if you look at 2019, turnover was down in the region of €22 million or €23 million. That is a significant drop off in turnover.

I looked at the surplus each year. There was a spike in 2018 but that was due to the sale of Harold's Cross. There was a bump there that managed to stabilise Greyhound Racing Ireland's finances. Regarding the fall in turnover from €33 million in 2010 to €23 million in 2019, what explanation is there for that consistent fall-off in revenue? What happened in those nine years?

Mr. John Tuohey

There was a decline in attendance during that period. That was evident. Obviously, it had an impact on revenue-generating ability. If we look at where we are now and the future, we need to focus on how we address that. We are at a point where we must start rebuilding the industry and attendances. We have taken steps with regard to that commercial sector.

Chairman

Hiring a commercial manager.

Mr. John Tuohey

We have also started looking at other income-generating opportunities we have for stadia. There are a few existing ones. For example, we rent out the car park in Shelbourne Park and generate quite a significant income from it.

Chairman

I was surprised by the drop-off during that nine-year period. Is the Department concerned about that? Have there been discussions with the Minister around it, in view of the fact that funding for the sector is increasing?

Mr. Gordon Conroy

There was a clear fall in the numbers in the period outlined by the Chairman. That was probably reflective of the controversies linked to this. We all saw the "Prime Time Investigates" programme. It has been much more positive recently in terms of the interaction with the sector. Attendances are rising, greyhound racing is back on television and sponsors are getting involved again. This is probably reflective of Rasaíocht Con Éireann's efforts, including its animal welfare measures. The strategic plan we will get early next year from Rasaíocht Con Éireann will certainly advise us in terms of how proceed and how the sector-----

Chairman

Between the board and the Department, is there a projection of what the target needs to be by 2030 in terms of turnover?

Mr. Gordon Conroy

When we see the strategic plan, it will be linked into attendances and other measures. Our funding each year is set out and is linked to certain parameters we agree with the sector. It would not necessarily go into the detail of attendances and so on. It would be more high level than that.

Chairman

The issue of attendances is key. Will a target be set in that strategic plan?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

In response to Deputy Colm Burke earlier, I said that part of the plan would be to reduce our dependence on State funding. Obviously, a significant part of that has to involve increasing attendances. The Chairman asked about the period from 2009 onwards, which was probably the nadir in terms of attendances. A number of things happened. Public practices and habits changed. People stopped going out as much as they did previously and started watching greyhound racing and other sports on television and elsewhere and there was a change in public perception of dogs and their treatment. We were probably slow to react to public perception. In the past few years, we have changed our emphasis entirely and moved to an emphasis on the welfare of the dog, an emphasis that has always been there but has never been properly publicised. Once we have established that in the minds of the general public, we can start tackling the question of attendance but we had to do that first and I hope we have done that.

Chairman

Attendances in 2019, which is the last realistic year by which you can judge this, went down to 463,000. Rasaíocht Con Éireann aims to get that up to 630,000. The last time this figure was seen was in 2015. If we go back to 2008, over 1.1 million people attended race meetings. It is significant. We are looking at less than 40% of that figure. That is a shocking figure in terms of commercial activity and the promotion of the sector. Would Mr. Nyhan agree with that?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

I agree with the Chairman. This is a big shortfall to be made up. I do not think we will ever get back to those attendance figures because public habits have changed. Our sister organisation Horse Racing Ireland has the same issue. I do not think people are going to go out as often so we are going to have to look at other revenue streams.

Chairman

I would like to ask about attendances at race meetings. In 2021, there were 1,384 race meetings. Would that be a typical year?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

2021 was an average year in terms of numbers. The Chairman mentioned 2015. To be helpful, the attendances at this year's Derby final and the Laurels final in Cork last week were back at 2015 levels.

That is hopeful for the future.

Chairman

That is good. However, if we take the last year for which we can realistically assess the attendance it is 463,000 and there is an average of, say, 1,400 race meetings per year, that tells us the attendance at race meetings is in the region of perhaps 300 per meeting. Would that be correct, as an average?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

There is a difficulty with that in that some meetings are not really run for the public. Some of the races, like Sports Information Services, SIS-type races, are run early in the morning, on Sunday afternoon and other times like that which are not public-friendly. Therefore, it does not work out as a straight average.

Chairman

What kind of average attendance is there?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

I defer to-----

Chairman

I am always meaning to go. I have been asked many times but I have not gone. I will some time.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

We will send you an invitation for next year's derby, Chairman. I hope we will see you there.

Chairman

I have to be careful with that kind of thing now. I have to pay at the gate like everyone else.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

We have averages.

Chairman

Yes, I just want an average. I have another question Mr. Nyhan might answer for me. With other sports, attendance has shot up in 2022. I am told soccer is one and GAA is doing quite well, but greyhound racing attendance does not appear to have lifted.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

I do not think GAA did as well as other years in 2022. Certainly there were tickets available for the All-Ireland on the weekend of the match, which is very unusual.

Chairman

It is coming back fairly well though.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

Horse racing figures are not back at previous levels. I saw yesterday that Tourism Ireland and Bord Fáilte were talking about the tourism rate being at around 75%. This year we are coming in at about 70% of the 2019 figure. That is probably okay. It will need to be better next year but it is okay for this year.

Chairman

A question was asked around concession tickets and the figures for 2021 and 2022. I do not think the RCÉ officials have them to hand but I ask they come back to us on that.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

We will send the Chairman those.

Chairman

What percentage, roughly, of those who come through the gates are on concession tickets? Does RCÉ have a guide for that of, say, between 2% and 5%?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

I do not know and-----

Chairman

Is there no policy?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

-----I am not sure we have that figure.

Chairman

The board does not take any hand in that.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

No.

Chairman

It does not, okay. I ask RCÉ to come back to us with that figure. What is the average attendance, Mr. Tuohey?

Mr. John Tuohey

The average attendance for this year, October year to date, is 223 per meeting.

Chairman

That is quite low.

Mr. John Tuohey

It is quite low but as Mr. Nyhan indicated there are some meetings that are not really to attract the public. It is a total.

Chairman

As part of the preparation of the strategic plan, is RCÉ examining the number of stadiums?

Mr. John Tuohey

Yes.

Chairman

Some may not be viable.

Mr. John Tuohey

Part of the plan is the footprint of the organisation.

Chairman

Okay. I call Deputy Hourigan.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I thank the Chair. I want to stay on the strategic plan, that is, the existing one, and seek updates about what was implemented. There was an aim in the plan to extend the racing life of dogs from I believe 48 months to 72 months. Where are we with that?

Mr. William Fitzgerald

There were a number of races that were designed and for a period of time they were extended for older greyhounds to extend their racing life. Over a period, they were less and less subscribed. As such, they are no longer in run. My colleagues may confirm if that is accurate.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Are we saying there is no longer an aim to extend the life of a racing dog to 72 months?

Mr. William Fitzgerald

There still is, it is just that at this point-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

We are not actually running any races, based on that.

Mr. William Fitzgerald

The races were not being fully subscribed.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Okay. I was under the impression the reason it was in the strategic plan and we wanted to do it was A, it would cost the taxpayer less and it would require fewer dogs and B, it would improve animal welfare outcomes because there would be fewer collateral pups. Is that a fair categorisation of why we would extend to 72 months?

Mr. William Fitzgerald

That is reasonable, yes.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

We have ceased to run those races because not enough people were participating.

Mr. William Fitzgerald

They were not being fully subscribed, yes.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Okay. Will we see the extension to 72 months in the new strategic plan?

Mr. William Fitzgerald

I do not know. Realistically, I have not had sight of that.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Considering we are not running any races I am not hopeful.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

The new strategic plan will have an analysis, obviously, of the previous strategic plan and what worked and what did not work, to feed into the new plan.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Does the Department take a view on that?

Mr. Gordon Conroy

Any initiative that would support welfare and care initiatives for dogs would be welcomed by us.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

The Department will not give any guidance or leadership to RCÉ about what it would like to see, even when it is something like this, which specifically reduces the cost to the taxpayer.

Mr. Gordon Conroy

We will certainly engage when we see the plan in all aspects.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

But the Department does not take a view on this.

Mr. Gordon Conroy

It is for the board.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Okay. Are there plans to set up the stud book? As I understand it, the stud book would be a significant income stream but at the moment we leave it to coursing. Are we planning to do that? That was in the strategic plan, was it?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

The Deputy means the racing greyhound stud book, per se.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Yes.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

It remains an aim of the industry to establish its own stud book.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

It has been in the strategic plan for five years.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

It has, yes.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

What work have we done on that?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

There have been a number of conversations with the Department on it.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

How many?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

It has come up at various meetings. It has not been done yet. I am not sure whether it is going to be possible to do it in the near future.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Why not?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

There is an amount of resistance to doing it.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

From where?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

There are difficulties with crossover breeds - Mr. Herbert would be better at this than I - there are a number of sires that sire coursing greyhounds as well as racing greyhounds.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I am sorry, will Mr. Nyhan say that again?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

There are a number of sires that are sires for coursing greyhounds but they are also sires for racing greyhounds.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Okay.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

Therefore, it is going to be difficult to establish a stud book for purely racing greyhounds. That is the issue as I understand it.

Mr. Pat Herbert

That is fair to say, yes.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Are we leaving it to coursing then?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

The Irish Coursing Club holds the stud book, it is not coursing.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

What revenue does it gain from that?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

It is quite significant.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Yes. Does Mr. Nyhan want to put a number on it?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

I am not sure what it is.

Mr. Pat Herbert

Its fees are published in relation the registration of fees. As it is a club I am not privy to the information around the revenue streams it gets from that.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

It is a significant number though. We might be talking about hundreds of thousands of euro, or €1 million.

Mr. Pat Herbert

I do not have those figures. They are private club figures.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Okay. It would seem in RCÉ's strategic plan there is a considerable revenue stream open to it but the organisation has not done any strategic work to complete it. Is that a fair observation?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

It is an observation.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Has RCÉ done any strategic work to complete that?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

We have certainly had discussions. I am not sure there has been any practical work done yet on that.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Would the Department like to comment on that? It would seem fairly fundamental.

Mr. Gordon Conroy

As I understand it, it has been the remit of the ICC since the 1920s, I think, and so I suspect-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I am sorry but I must stop Mr. Conroy. As I understand it the ICC goes across to Northern Ireland as well. Is that right? It has some jurisdiction in Northern Ireland.

Mr. Pat Herbert

It licenses the two stadiums in the North of Ireland.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Exactly, so in the context of the operations of RCÉ it seems problematic that we would vest the stud book with an organisation that has other remits and requirements. I am therefore asking the Department what its guidance or interaction with RCÉ has been on the organisation setting up its own stud book? Has the Department identified the fact there is a conflict there if we leave it to coursing, which it seems we are? We are just accepting this considerable income stream is just going to be left to a different group.

Mr. Gordon Conroy

I am not aware of any plans to change the stud book or its ownership.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

The Department has not had any conversations around that.

Mr. Gordon Conroy

None at all.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

What does Mr. Nyhan say?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

I am sorry, what is the question?

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

The Department is saying it has not had any major conversations with RCÉ around the stud book.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

There have not been major conversations. It has been the subject of conversations at meetings.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Can I get clarity on that Chair?

Ms Caroline Ball

Apologies. RCÉ has discussed it with the Department but at the moment there are no plans.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

When was the last time it was discussed?

Ms Caroline Ball

I actually cannot recall. I can check.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Could the Department check that, please? I do not know about minutes. Was it a throw-away comment or was there serious strategic discussions about how it would be achieved?

Ms Caroline Ball

We are certainly aware that it is something that RCÉ desire. It was in its strategic plan. We are aware of that. I just cannot recall at the moment.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Is the Department in a position to make the Attorney General's advice on the fund available to the committee?

Mr. Gordon Conroy

I suspect there is no problem at all with that. I can read out the main part if the Deputy would like.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

No, if Mr. Conroy could just send it on to the committee, that would be very helpful.

We just discussed Exchequer funding. We were told there was a desire to move away from Exchequer funding if possible and that the board would build its own income sources. Is it challenging to move away from Exchequer funding in the context of being locked into a fund where an entity receives money regardless of its own plans?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

It would be challenging at any time to walk away from funding in the region of €18 million.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I suppose what I am asking is if RCÉ can raise income itself does it propose to return funding to the Department?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

The plan is that over a period - and there is no point in saying otherwise because this will not be over five years but a longer period - that we would be independent of State funding.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Completely independent of State funding?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

Probably not fully independent but more independent than we currently are.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

RCÉ's strategic plan is based on it receiving an increase in funding. That is my reading.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

In the previous plan, yes.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

RCÉ has asked for more than it has received.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

This year, yes.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Does the Department take a view on the fact that the strategic plan rests on increased funding?

Mr. Gordon Conroy

The previous strategic plan was during Covid and so on, so it was probably a very challenging period, that is, not only when it was developed but when it ran. We would need to see a new strategic plan and consider that in terms of future funding.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Funding is sometimes hard to understand. Do we have access to all the electronic readings of gate receipts from all the stadiums?

Mr. John Tuohey

All the gate receipts are recorded through the system.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Have we access to feasibility studies for capital improvements to Shelbourne Park and Kilkenny? Has that work been done? This is still in the realm of the strategic plan.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

The business case for Kilkenny is with the Department and we are currently in the process with Shelbourne Park.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Has RCÉ tendered for that?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

We are about to go to tender.

Chairman

Okay, Deputy.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Can I just ask one question?

Chairman

Briefly.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I want to test traceability a little. I refer to an Irish-born greyhound. Am I allowed to name it? Yes, I am because it is public knowledge.

Chairman

Yes, if it is in the public domain.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Laughil Roxy broke her hock at a UK track. The UK trainer did not take the dog to the vet for immediate treatment despite instruction from the track vet. On instruction from the owner in Ireland, she was transported to Ireland against track vet advice. The Irish owner did not seek vet treatment for the dog for a week and then she was euthanised. Based on the traceability system now in place, was Laughil Roxy entered back onto the RCÉ traceability system on her return to Ireland?

Chairman

I just want to clarify that the Deputy is quoting from a media report.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Yes.

Chairman

That is okay.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

In the case of a dog that is injured on a UK track and renters the country, does that go on the RCÉ traceability system?

Mr. Pat Herbert

To put it in context, a number of matters are being investigated around that greyhound. On traceability, once a greyhound is exported and the update is provided that the greyhound is exported to the UK, the greyhound will fall off the owner's account and there are no further requirements on traceability.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Therefore it never comes back on the Irish traceability system. The dog is in this country. It is not now, because it has been euthanised.

Mr. Pat Herbert

Okay but from a traceability and monitoring perspective, when greyhounds return and compete by way of race or trial at a GRI-licensed stadium, they are automatically reincorporated to the traceability system.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Okay. The answer is "No". That dog that was euthanised on Irish soil by Irish trainers is not covered by our traceability system. Is that correct?

Mr. Pat Herbert

By the fact that it had not raced or trialled, that is correct.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

It came home very badly injured and was euthanised here. Does the Department want to comment? Does it fulfil the spirit of the traceability system?

Mr. Gordon Conroy

I am unaware of the specifics of that.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

I can provide details. To be honest the details of the particular dog do not make any difference and I believe that that case has been dealt with by UK authorities. However, the dog comes home to an Irish trainer - it is an Irish dog - and it is euthanised here because it is so badly injured but it is not covered by our traceability system. RCÉ has just confirmed that is correct. Is the Department happy with that level of traceability?

Mr. Gordon Conroy

I think the traceability system has come on a long way since its inception.

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

It is really a "Yes" or "No". Does it fulfil traceability?

Mr. Gordon Conroy

Genuinely I would really like to have a look at this particular case before I would comment.

Mr. Pat Herbert

By way of additional information, there are additional facets of traceability incorporated into the system-----

Deputy Neasa Hourigan

Still to come you mean?

Mr. Pat Herbert

Yes. There will be further developments on traceability.

Chairman

I mentioned the Preferred Results Ltd report earlier. It was dated 29 September 2017. Can Mr. Nyhan confirm if it is publicly available?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

The original report is.

Chairman

It contained a number of assertions. They included that the industry needed to act to prevent the low-cost dumping of dogs into Britain which is ultimately underpinned by the Irish taxpayer. Does Mr. Nyhan agree with that?

Mr. Frank Nyhan

No.

Chairman

Does Mr. Tuohey agree?

Mr. John Tuohey

No, I do not agree with that.

Chairman

Why?

Mr. John Tuohey

There is no logical sense to it.

Chairman

Is Mr. Tuohey saying that it did not happen?

Mr. John Tuohey

Why would one produce a greyhound and sell it at a loss?

Chairman

Surplus.

Mr. John Tuohey

RCÉ does not directly subsidise the breeding of greyhounds.

Chairman

Not directly. Okay.

Mr. John Tuohey

If somebody is in the business of breeding greyhounds and exporting them, one would expect that they are in that to make a profit.

Chairman

Indirectly though, could the €18 million or €19 million provide the sector with the means to do it.

Mr. John Tuohey

No, I do not see the logic in that at all.

Chairman

Okay. Obviously the authors of the report disagree with that. The report also outlined the need for an export levy or controls over exports to ensure that market prices prevail. Would RCÉ agree with an export levy?

Mr. John Tuohey

Market prices obviously prevail because the majority of sales to the UK and within Ireland are private sales. The sales conducted through RCÉ only relate to a small number of greyhounds. I can give the figure for our sales. I think it was 10% or 12%. The majority are private sales.

Chairman

That report said that any reduction in exports is an opportunity to expand the sale of racing content into the UK betting market. Does RCÉ agree with that?

Mr. John Tuohey

I do not see the logic in that. I do not know how we could prevent the sale of greyhounds to the UK in the first place. Any individual has the right to sell their greyhounds.

Chairman

My concern is that the board commissioned the report but it has not agreed to any of its key findings. I often ask someone questions and the answers might not be what you want but of five answers there might be two or three that you agree with.

Here one has a detailed report carried out and Mr. Tuohey, as the CEO, and Mr. Nyhan, as the cathaoirleach of the board, are telling me that they do not agree with any of the key findings of that report. Does Mr. Tuohey not find that odd?

Mr. John Tuohey

On the findings the Chairman has asked me about, I do not see that there is any logical basis to them.

Chairman

Does Mr. Nyhan find it unusual as the chairperson of the board? Boards will commission reports. They will look for papers on various different things. One might not agree with everything that comes back but in this case, fundamentally, they have agreed with every one of the key findings of that report.

Mr. Frank Nyhan

They actually all probably follow from one fundamental finding with which we disagree.

Chairman

Okay. I thank the witnesses for the information they supplied. We have had a good examination of the sector this morning.

There is a lot done. We accept that there are improvements to traceability, etc. That is happening. That is good.

There are figures for the past ten years. Other members and I quote data that show there would be issues for concern. Hopefully, it can be lifted.

I hope it is accepted that the welfare issue is directly linked to the attendance and the credibility of the sector. We want to see improvements. I am sure the Department officials do as well. It is really important that that happens. That is the message going from here this morning that there have been improvements made and we want to see significant improvements. I look forward to the strategic plan, hopefully, that can point the way forward for the sector over the next eight or ten years.

I thank the Rasaíocht Con Éireann representatives for attending and the officials from the Department for the work involved in preparing for the meeting. I also thank the staff from the Comptroller and Auditor General's office for attending today and assisting the committee.

Is it agreed that the clerk to the committee will seek any follow-up information and carry out any agreed actions? Agreed. Is it also agreed that we note and publish the opening statements and the briefings provided for today's meeting? Agreed.

The meeting will suspended until 1.30 p.m. when we will resume in public session to address correspondence and any other business of the committee.

The witnesses withdrew.

Sitting suspended at 12.32 p.m. and resumed at 1.34 p.m.