COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 13 Jun 2024

Vote 13 - Office of Public Works

Mr. John Conlon (Chairman, Office of Public Works) called and examined.

An Cathaoirleach

Apologies have been received from Deputies Ciarán Cannon, Imelda Munster, John Brady and Verona Murphy. I welcome the witnesses. I would remind all those in attendance to ensure that their mobile phones are switched off or on silent mode.

Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege, and the practice of the Houses as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence.

The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. This means that witnesses have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if a witness's statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, the witness will be directed to discontinue his or her remarks. It is imperative that witnesses comply.

Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee. He is accompanied this morning by Ms Maria Reck, audit manager at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

This morning we will engage with representatives from the Office of Public Works to examine: the Appropriation Accounts 2022, Vote 13 – Office of Public Works. Areas of interest that have been flagged include the national children's science museum project, flood relief schemes, vacant property in the OPW portfolio, modular homes for Ukrainian beneficiaries of temporary protection and non-compliant procurement.

We are joined by the following representatives from the Office of Public Works. Mr. John Conlon is cathaoirleach. It is Mr. Conlon's first visit to the Committee of Public Accounts and I welcome him. He took over in April, I believe, from Mr. Maurice Buckley. Mr. Conlon is joined by Mr. Jim Casey, head of flood risk management; Mr. Pat Fitzsimons, head of corporate services; Mr. Ciaran O'Connor, State architect; Ms Rosemary Collier, head of heritage services; and Ms Cathleen Morrison, head of estate management.

We are also joined by Mr. David Delaney, assistant secretary at the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth; Ms Paula Quinn, principal officer at the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth; and Ms Ciara Morgan from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. They are all very welcome.

To begin with, I call on the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, to make his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Chathaoirleach.

The 2022 appropriation account for Vote 13, Office of Public Works, records gross expenditure of €541.8 million. Appropriations-in-aid of the vote amounted to €33.5 million.

The account is presented under two programme headings: almost €103 million, or 19% of the total, was spent on the flood risk management programme; and just under €439 million was spent on the estate management programme.

The OPW provides office and other types of accommodation to other central government Departments and offices, using a combination of leased and State-owned property. The associated costs are a direct charge to Programme B. This includes rent payments totalling €101 million; property maintenance and supply payments of almost €68 million; and public-private partnership unitary payments amounting to just under €24 million. Costs associated with the OPW's portfolio of heritage properties amounted to €49 million in 2022.

In parallel with routine management of its property portfolio, the OPW manages a large programme of new capital works, substantial building alterations and extensions. Under subhead B6, new works, alterations and additions, the OPW incurred expenditure of €115 million in 2022. A new subhead introduced in 2022, B12, national recovery and resilience plan, provided €64 million for the development of a new national data centre at Backweston and a major energy upgrade programme for State-owned office buildings located outside Dublin.

The account indicates there were delays with both those projects and the spending outturn was just €17.6 million in 2022. Separate from the building activity charged to Vote 13, the OPW also acts on an agency basis on behalf of other Government Departments and agencies. This mainly relates to the carrying out of major capital works and the leasing of accommodation. While the OPW typically contracts for the work, the expenditure associated with this agency activity is reflected in the appropriation accounts of the client Departments and agencies. As indicated in note 2.13, expenditure incurred by the OPW on an agency basis amounted to €192 million in 2022.

One example of this type of agency arrangement is the programme for provision of rapid-build residential accommodation for Ukrainian beneficiaries of temporary protection. The associated expenditure is charged to the Vote for the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, and amounted to €29 million in 2022. The financial commitment in respect of that programme, at the end of 2022, was €237 million. Even though the OPW is heavily involved in the delivery of the programme, neither the expenditure nor the commitment amount is disclosed in the OPW’s Vote. Taking all the new works, extensions and alteration activity together, the OPW’s programme of capital works led to expenditure of more than €325 million in 2022. The surplus on the Vote at the year-end was €93.8 million. Of this, unspent capital allocations for flood risk management, to the value of €27 million, were carried over to 2023. The balance of €66.8 million was surrendered back to the Exchequer.

I issued a clear audit opinion in relation to the appropriation account but drew attention to three matters disclosed by the Accounting Officer in the statement on internal financial control. First, procurements to the value of €12.9 million in 2022 were not compliant with public procurement rules. Second, the OPW made a payment of more than €677,000 to the Revenue Commissioners in relation to the underpayment of tax on expense claims over a four-year period. That payment included almost €111,000 in interest costs and a penalty of €16,500. Finally, the OPW made an advance payment of just less than €300,000 to a subcontractor in 2020, even though it did not have a contractual obligation to do so. The payment to the subcontractor was effectively a working capital loan. This transaction was not recorded as a debtor in the OPW’s appropriation accounts for 2020 or 2021, but it would have been appropriate to do so. The advance was repaid by the subcontractor in 2022. When the account was being signed off, the controls over authorisation and documentation of the advance were being examined by the OPW. The Accounting Officer may be able to update the committee in that regard.

Mr. John Conlon

I thank the Chair for the invitation to attend this meeting. I am joined by members of the Office of Public Works management board. They have already been introduced so I will not repeat the introduction. We have provided a number of requested briefing documents, which I hope addressed the specific issues raised in the committee's correspondence. I will give an overview of our accounts for 2022 and demonstrate with headline figures the detail of our budget, some of which has been outlined by the Comptroller and Auditor General. Exchequer funding to the OPW supports our core areas of work in flood risk management, estate management and heritage services. As the Comptroller and Auditor General indicated, in 2022, gross expenditure for the OPW was €542 million. The OPW received an additional €192 million from our client Departments to carry out work on their behalf. This does not appear in our accounts, but rather in the accounts of the client organisations. Almost €103 million was invested in flood risk management, including flood defence schemes and maintenance of arterial drainage schemes. On the estate management and heritage side, €439 million was invested in 2022.

I now focus on the specific areas of interest the committee raised with us, and when addressing those topics, I will, where applicable, refer to corresponding detail from the 2022 appropriation account. I turn first to flood risk management. Our briefing document details the extent and scope of our work under flood risk management and defence. I will outline some key achievements and challenges we face. The OPW is proactive and leads a co-ordinated whole-of-government approach to managing flood risk. Our core objective is to reduce, to the greatest extent possible, the impact of flooding on homes and businesses across the country. We work closely with local authorities to deliver flood defence schemes to communities nationwide.

Following the most extensive study of flood risk ever undertaken in Ireland, 29 flood risk management plans were put in place for the country. These are supported by a national development plan budget of €1.3 billion until 2030. Under these plans, 150 flood relief schemes will provide protection to approximately 23,000 homes and businesses in communities across the country. Since 2018, the OPW has tripled the number of flood relief and defence schemes under way from approximately 30 to 100. We have invested €550 million in 55 completed flood defence schemes, protecting more than 13,000 properties, with an estimated economic benefit to the State in damage and losses avoided of circa €2 billion. While we strive to expedite and progress flood relief schemes, Deputies will appreciate that these are complex projects with a number of detailed stages, some of which can take a number of years to complete.

Multiple challenges and legal requirements impact on delivery of schemes. These include the requirement to conduct environmental assessments, delays in the planning process and on some schemes dealing with judicial reviews. In 2022, from our revised allocation of €85.5 million for flood relief schemes, we spent almost €55 million. The remaining budget of €30 million is reflective of a number of key challenges, including planning delays and judicial reviews, delays arising from planning conditions, construction market inflation, the need for extensive collection and analysis of a broad range of survey data and ground investigation data and the shortage of specialised flood engineering and other expertise. In this context, in 2022, seven schemes did not progress to construction, which is the costliest stage, as planned.

Updated plans for the national children’s science centre at the National Concert Hall complex in Dublin received planning permission a number of weeks ago, in April 2024, following a decision by An Bord Pleanála. The detail of the conditions of the planning permission are currently being worked through and an update on the total project costs will be determined following that assessment.

The OPW property portfolio, encompassing approximately 2,500 properties, is one of the largest and most diverse in the State and is spread over office accommodation, the Garda estate, State laboratories and a wide range of heritage properties. In any major portfolio, there will always be a level of vacancy at any given time. The effective vacancy rate in the OPW property portfolio, which includes land and buildings, is 5%, with a vacancy rate of 1% for office accommodation. Given the scale and geographic dispersion of the properties, this is low by international comparisons. Vacancy levels in the commercial office market are not reflected in our portfolio. The OPW offers any vacant, surplus properties to the Department of integration, the Land Development Agency, local authorities and other State bodies to support their efforts in addressing accommodation challenges. A number of surplus OPW sites were provided for modular housing, while other sites are earmarked to transfer to the Land Development Agency for social housing development.

We are delivering a rapid-build homes project on behalf of the Department of integration. To date, 310 homes have been supplied to families fleeing the war in Ukraine at seven sites across the country. Other sites in Charleville, County Cork, Ballinasloe, County Galway, Backweston, County Kildare, and Clonmel, County Tipperary, will be completed in the coming weeks and months. Backweston includes 12 two-storey units and once the project is complete, almost 700 homes will be provided. Updated expenditure of €237 million has been approved for this programme and a further review of costs is under way with the Department of integration.

Finally, the Comptroller and Auditor General highlighted the level of non-compliant procurement in 2022. A specific query was raised by the committee recently and we provided it with a detailed response. The majority of non-compliant procurement disclosed relates to capital works that were necessary as part of the management and maintenance of our extensive property portfolio.

We are committed to reducing instances of non-compliant procurement through a number of measures, including a new framework.

I sincerely thank my colleagues in the OPW, who deliver key services every day to our wide range of clients and communities. I am honoured to work with such a dedicated team. We are very proud of the long legacy that the OPW has in delivering key services across the country.

I thank the Chair and committee members for their time and thank the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General for its work and recommendations. We welcome questions, which my colleagues and I will address.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Good morning to our witnesses. Let us deal with the issue of non-compliant procurement first. It is the one that always comes up at the beginning of the Comptroller and Auditor General’s report. There were 122 instances. Mr. Conlon indicated that they relate to capital works in the property portfolio. Could he explain that a little further?

Mr. John Conlon

I can. As I indicated, most of the €12 million, or about €11 million, relates to capital works. Also featured with respect to non-compliance are the likes of grounds maintenance, energy conservation and event hire, but to a relatively small degree.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

If officials from another Department were with me and talking about any of those things, I would say they might be explainable on the basis of there being other areas of expertise within the Department. The OPW’s core business is all these things. Surely there is a framework tender that allows the OPW to implement solutions. I am thinking about local authorities, which have a framework tender for the maintenance of their properties. Some of what Mr. Conlon has described would appear to be fairly routine.

Mr. John Conlon

The Deputy is correct in that we are a fairly major procurer, not just in Dublin but all across the country. We have a number of framework contracts that we endeavour to abide by.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Of the 122 instances, has Mr. Conlon identified any that should have been addressed within some sort of framework tender?

Mr. John Conlon

We have, and we are addressing that by putting new frameworks in place. Some of the non-compliance identified in 2022 is being corrected as we-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Of the 122, how many have been corrected?

Mr. John Conlon

We broke this down in quite some detail in a brief we gave members a few weeks ago. Let me refer to it. There were 94 instances where, in respect of the framework I am referring to, the contract value exceeded the threshold. That, as I said, is being corrected. It concerns about 94 instances.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

What about the remaining ones?

Mr. John Conlon

Of the remaining ones, approximately 43 were in the Garda and Courts Service area, totalling about €4.194 million.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

What services did they relate to?

Mr. John Conlon

They related to the likes of publishing. One of the reasons we had difficulty in that particular space concerned security issues in the Garda and Courts Service.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

How did they relate to procurement?

Mr. John Conlon

We had a difficulty in publishing the design and layout detailed for the particular contracts.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

So there was non-compliant procurement as a result of not being able to publish the specific layouts for-----

Mr. John Conlon

We use a restricted procedure in those cases.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

How does Mr. Conlon intend to address that?

Mr. John Conlon

We are going with the new framework. With regard to those types of projects, we will probably use a restricted procedure again, but within the framework as we design it.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

One gets judged more harshly for non-compliant procurement regarding what are basic capital and maintenance issues, rather than other issues. I want to move on to other areas but I wish to flag that this is an area that the committee will likely return to.

Mr. John Conlon

I accept that. I emphasise that we are working very hard to have a more compliant situation. We made progress on that throughout 2023 and will continue to do so this year.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Let me raise the issue of the payment of €299,559 to a subcontractor. In 2020, the OPW paid that amount, which was not due under the terms of the contract with the main contractor, directly to the subcontractor. It has been noted that the transaction was not recorded as a debt in the accounts. Could Mr. Conlon explain that to the committee?

Mr. John Conlon

As a new Accounting Officer for the OPW, I am concerned about the way this arose and I fully acknowledge that it highlights control weaknesses. These are being addressed. My predecessor initiated a number of measures designed to improve the control environment and I will build on these. Our internal audit unit is completing a review of the circumstances that gave rise to both the payment and the refund, which has been received. At the moment, we are engaging in legal correspondence with the legal representative of the relevant manager. Once that correspondence is finalised, I hope to be in a position to have the report finalised.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Can Mr. Conlon state the site in question?

Mr. John Conlon

It is related to the Miesian Plaza site on Baggot Street.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Regarding that site, a payment was made directly to the subcontractor. Can Mr. Conlon explain why that happened?

Mr. John Conlon

I am informed that the senior manager concerned got representations from a contractor down the supply chain who had indicated to him that they were not being paid because of a dispute higher up the supply chain. I understand that the senior manager had some concerns about the viability of the subcontractor if that person was not paid, and he made arrangements to put a payment in place. However, as the Comptroller and Auditor General has outlined-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I can understand how somebody responsible for a project, fearing it might not be completed and that there could be a risk of losing the subcontractor, would put in place a sticking-plaster solution to ensure completion. In the private sector, those kinds of arrangements are made, but the difficulty is that the OPW, in going beyond the tender, exposed the State to a charge of €300,000.

Mr. John Conlon

I fully accept that and I fully accept it should not have happened. I also fully accept that we need to deal with it, as we are doing. The one thing I should record for the committee is that the money was returned, so there is no loss.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

The money was returned but not listed as a debt in the accounts. Did the OPW expect to get the money back?

Mr. John Conlon

At some stage, it did, I understand.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Surely if it expected to get it back, it would have been recorded in the accounts.

Mr. John Conlon

It should have been. I accept that.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Has Mr. Conlon examined whether any conflicts of interest arose regarding this issue?

Mr. John Conlon

We carried out a few reviews after the matter came to our attention. I have mentioned the internal audit review, which is under way. We carried out a specific review of the payments approved by the senior manager in question. That was completed, and we found that no other such arrangements had been entered into. We also did a purchase-to-pay audit for the entire OPW payments system. That has been completed and its recommendations are being implemented. We have also put a number of accounting procedures in place to copper-fasten the controls in this area, and we put a new compliance unit in place in the financial services area.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

My question was whether, as a result of all the reviews, there was any suggestion or allegation of a conflict of interest between the person making the decision and the subcontractor.

Mr. John Conlon

I am not aware of any. None has been brought to my attention.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

From a project management perspective, I can absolutely understand what was done, but it is just not the way to manage public money. Public money must not be exposed in that way. There is a suggestion that the payment would effectively be state aid in that it was a loan to the subcontractor.

Mr. John Conlon

I fully accept that.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

In that space, the OPW leaves itself open to every subcontractor saying the main contractor will not pay it and seeking early payment. It effectively rips up the contract schedule.

Mr. John Conlon

I fully accept that. It should not have happened in the way did. As said, we have had a number of reviews, and new procedures have been put in place. As the new Accounting Officer, making sure procurement is put into a better space is very high on my agenda. These contracts-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

How many people would have been required to sign off on the payment?

Mr. John Conlon

In that particular case, the manager involved had authorisation to approve up to the limit in question. He would have approved the arrangement and then it would have gone to the financial services area for payment.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

He or she would have had the power to approve up to the amount in question, but surely the making of a payment outside the contract would not be approved. There should not have been approval for that.

Mr. John Conlon

It should not have gone through the payments system.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

That is a very clear answer.

Let me come back to the issue of the tax settlement with Revenue.

The OPW made an unprompted voluntary disclosure to Revenue of €550,000 relating to four years of expenses claims. Interest of €110,000 and a penalty of €16,000 were paid to the Revenue Commissioners in 2022. I accept that the penalty is being received by the State from the OPW, but the OPW does not want to be in the business of being in dispute with Revenue. Will the witnesses discuss the expenses claims that were the subject of the inquiry?

Mr. John Conlon

There were two particular instances in play. Staff in the south west were working without a base. There were arrangements in place in that area and in construction in the eastern region whereby an agreed amount of money, called “country money”, was payable to these people for their travelling to and from work because they had no bases. That arrangement worked well for years and was agreed by the Construction Industry Federation. In the cases in question, a decision was made by staff quite some number of years ago to also be paid some travel and subsistence on their Monday and Friday journeys to and from the sites on which they were working. That was inappropriate-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

They were in receipt of travel and subsistence payments and the country money.

Mr. John Conlon

Yes. That was inappropriate. Once our internal audit discovered it, we made a settlement with Revenue after conducting a full review of the payments in the years in question.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

There are two elements in such scenarios, namely, the tax and the cost to the organisation. I am familiar with the idea of country money. I did some work with the national joint industrial council, NJIC, for the construction industry. Country money is always paid as a replacement for subsistence. Obviously, poor advice was given to the OPW at some point. Has the reason for that been sourced?

Mr. John Conlon

What gave rise to our problems with Revenue, or the settlement with Revenue, was the fact that travel and subsistence was paid on top of the country money. That gave rise to our exposure from a Revenue perspective.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

The OPW was making two travel and subsistence payments.

Mr. John Conlon

In respect of a set of employees.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Country money is effectively an assessed figure to cover travel and subsistence.

Mr. John Conlon

An agreed figure.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

The OPW was making two travel and subsistence payments.

Mr. John Conlon

Yes. A duplicate payment was made to these people.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

It is difficult to see how anyone would sign off on two travel and subsistence payments unless he or she did not fully understand what country money was.

Mr. John Conlon

I believe there may have been a misunderstanding at the time.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

There was an underpayment to Revenue because that money did not fulfil the employer’s common law duty to cover costs incurred reasonably in the course of people’s employment. I believe that is the phrase that is used. Is it correct to say that there was an overpayment to the employees? The employees received both payments.

Mr. John Conlon

Yes.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

The tax element is now dealt with.

Mr. John Conlon

We paid all of the moneys due to Revenue.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

The OPW paid all of the moneys for which the employees were responsible.

Mr. John Conlon

Yes. It was determined that the tax-free travel expenses could be considered terms of employment due to the historical practice that arose. To rectify the PAYE tax issue, an interim measure was agreed to gross up the Monday and Friday payments, apply the relevant taxes and pay them.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Does Mr. Conlon see my point? Not only did the OPW make the payments to the employees incorrectly and at additional cost to the OPW, but it also paid the tax for them as well.

Mr. John Conlon

Correct.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Has there been any attempt to recoup that?

Mr. John Conlon

We have not recouped it from the employees. Due to the way it arose as part of their employment and how it was paid, we decided not to recoup it from them and that we would take the hit.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Does the OPW have a figure for the total cost of the incorrect payments plus the payment to Revenue?

Mr. John Conlon

I will break that down into three figures, if I may. The unpaid tax from 2018 to 2021 was in the region of €550,000. The interest on that was €110,000 plus. The penalty came to just over €16,500.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

How much was paid in travel and subsistence?

Mr. John Conlon

I do not have that figure. May I revert to the Deputy?

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Yes. Given that the figures Mr. Conlon has provided total nearly €600,000 and that is just a percentage of the overall amount, one would imagine that the amount paid incorrectly in travel and subsistence was significant.

Mr. John Conlon

I am afraid I do not have that figure with me.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

One would expect it to be several million euro.

Mr. John Conlon

I am advised that it was in the region of €200,000 per annum for the four years in question.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I find that difficult to understand, given the payment of €600,000.

Mr. John Conlon

May I revert to the Deputy on this matter? I want to get the figures right rather than surmise them.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Yes.

In the short time available to me, I will mention a matter that my colleagues might take up subsequently, namely, vacant properties. I believe the OPW has a record 50 vacant properties. I accept that any portfolio will always have vacant properties, but less excusable are vacant properties arising from a decision to close certain Garda stations in 2012 and 2013. It is more than ten years since that decision and we now have 31 Garda stations and four Garda residences vacant. Does the OPW have any defence for this?

Mr. John Conlon

Over the years, we have offered many of those properties to local authorities. For those that have not been acceptable to local authorities, we have a disposal programme. We have disposed of a number of such properties or given them to local authorities or other agencies. We continue to do that.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Will Mr. Conlon provide us with a list of the 31 stations?

Mr. John Conlon

I will ask my colleague, Ms Morrison, to develop that point.

Ms Cathleen Morrison

We can certainly provide the Deputy with a list of those stations. Originally, 139 stations were closed by An Garda Síochána in 2012 and 2013. We have disposed of many of them and, as Mr. Conlon said, given them to local communities or local authorities. There are title issues that have to be rectified in respect of some of them before they can be disposed of, but we are working actively on all of them. Since 2019, we have disposed of 89 properties, which has generated income in excess of €21 million.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

One of those was the Finglas Garda station, which has been fantastically repurposed as a local crèche and is leased by an organisation. Having seen that success, one would be frustrated that there are still 31 buildings and, in particular, four residences vacant. Why are four residences still available after more than ten years? Ms Morrison might have read that there is a housing crisis.

Ms Cathleen Morrison

Yes, I am aware of that. Many of the properties, in particular the residences, are of poor quality and condition.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I can show Ms Morrison Housing for All. The Minister, Darragh O’Brien, might give the OPW a grant under the repair and lease scheme or the Croí Cónaithe scheme. There is no excuse for having residences empty for more than ten years. I urge the OPW to take immediate action. There are just four properties, so it is not a major issue, but there is no reason for them to still be on the OPW’s books. Even if substantial works are needed, there are multiple methods for restoring them. I find it difficult to believe that they would not be availed of if they were offered to any of the thousands of people on housing waiting lists.

Mr. John Conlon

We work hard with the local authorities, as the local housing agencies, to take those properties.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Without going into specifics, it is difficult to understand. The metric I do not believe is ten years.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

There are a number of issues I wish to cover, so I am indicating that I wish to contribute again at some point.

I will start with something that is not in the OPW’s 2022 accounts but I wish was, namely, Castletown House. For people who do not know it, it is a building of international significance in terms of its architecture and the grounds in which it sits. It attracted approximately 1 million visitors per year, mostly to its grounds. What is the value of the house for insurance purposes? Approximately €25 million has been put into the house and the grounds since 2005.

Mr. John Conlon

I do not have to hand the figure for the valuation for insurance purposes. I might ask my colleague, Ms Collier, whether she has an indication of that.

Ms Rosemary Collier

It is covered by State indemnity and we do not value our heritage properties for market insurance purposes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What about replacement insurance purposes?

Ms Rosemary Collier

Valuations are not done for that purpose. It is-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is there a valuation at all?

Ms Rosemary Collier

I suspect there is, but I do not have that figure to hand.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I believe it is priceless.

Ms Rosemary Collier

It is invaluable.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I would like the OPW to follow up on that and provide the information to the committee later.

What was the income from events held in Castletown House?

Ms Rosemary Collier

We held a series of concerts annually, with accommodation for approximately 60 to 70 people. We would have had income of between €20,000 and €30,000 for concert events at Castletown House.

That is fairly modest. We do not charge for community events, as the Deputy knows. There are huge events that happen such as park runs that involve people in the thousands. Several thousand people might attend our market events, the Irish wolfhound gathering or whatever. They are completely free of charge, so there is no income accruing to the State from those community events.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Obviously, Ms Collier and I are both aware of the current situation. There has been a protest since the OPW did not manage to buy the adjoining land. In 2022, when it sought to buy the adjoining land, which is the access in for vehicular purposes, it indicated that it was the only viable vehicular access. When it came up for sale, it was offered for sale privately to the OPW and the OPW did not buy it. Then it went on the market and was bought by a private buyer. That private buyer now has installed metal gates without planning permission, and there is no viable vehicular access. What happened in 2022? Was it the OPW or the Department where there was the difficulty in purchasing that? That asset is so valuable. It is the only viable vehicular access. I do not believe there was a lease in place, although there was an amount paid every year to the previous owner for access and there was a car park without planning permission, or the planning permission at least had lapsed. What was going through the heads of people in the OPW that they would not have secured the only viable vehicular access in the offer to purchase that land in 2022?

Ms Rosemary Collier

Does Mr. Conlon want to take that or will I?

Mr. John Conlon

As the Deputy indicated, we did make efforts to purchase the lands on a private basis in 2022. That was not successful as we-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Why?

Mr. John Conlon

We did not get the approval from the Department of public expenditure at the time.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

So it was the Department of public expenditure. What was the amount of money that was being sought at that point for the sale of that land?

Mr. John Conlon

I do not at this stage want to disclose that figure because we may consider further options of purchase. I just do not want to disclose anything that could be commercially of harm to us.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Did the Department give a flat "No"? Did it spend ages considering it? I ask Mr. Conlon to give us the set of circumstances there.

Mr. John Conlon

As the Deputy knows, as regards these types of capital outlays, we need to get the sanction of the Department of public expenditure. We made a case to the Department and, as regards its response to us, as I recollect, and I do not have it in front of me, I think its view was that the valuation we wanted to pay was slightly too high.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Did the OPW do valuations?

Mr. John Conlon

We would have been informed by valuations when we made the case to the Department-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Was the OPW evaluating it as agricultural or amenity, or is there a difference?

Mr. John Conlon

It would have been, as I recollect, consistent with the appropriate zoning for the property.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

In hindsight, which is a great thing, given that there is no viable vehicular access and there is a huge resistance to using the original entrance, which would have been built for carriages through the protected structures that are the gates, and the fact that 2,000 people a day, on average, walk that avenue, should there have been a different attention in terms of the vehicular access? If events are to be run in the house, there has to be a location for people to come and park. It is not realistic for people to use public transport.

Mr. John Conlon

I am going to ask Ms Collier to take this but I will make just one comment on the hindsight thing. It does give us perfect vision and, unfortunately, we are not in that space. I will ask Ms Collier to comment on the access issues the Deputy has identified.

Ms Rosemary Collier

As regards the viable vehicular access, when we were writing that report, we were, of course, talking about the million visitors who arrive by vehicles, so it is for the visitor parking piece. Lime Avenue is a vehicular access route. The State bought that. That was the original vehicular access to Castletown House. From 1994 to 2007, it was the only vehicular access route, and it continues to be, in and of itself, a vehicular access route. I appreciate that a custom and practice have developed whereby that route has become pedestrianised. It is a lovely pedestrian route for people to access the house, so we do understand that that is the concern of the community, but that was the original vehicular access which was bought by the Office of Public Works when we bought the first 13 acres there. We have reunited 230 acres since. When we talked about viable vehicular access in the report, we were talking about that volume of visitor vehicular traffic. The access at Celbridge, we believe, would still be suitable for vehicular access for staff of the OPW in the same way as at our other sites, like St. Stephen's Green, Farmleigh and Kilkenny Castle.

On the-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The community would not agree with Ms Collier on that, of course, and she knows that.

Ms Rosemary Collier

I understand that.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

When the OPW approached the new owner, what amount of money was sought for the land?

Mr. John Conlon

As I said a few moments ago, as to what could be offered or financial amounts, I am very reluctant to disclose anything in that space because doing so would impact any future approach we could take.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I know this is an ongoing issue. I am very heavily involved in it myself. You could not avoid being involved if you are from that area. I can tell the witnesses that the community around Castletown - I know this is a national site but it is used most by local communities - feels very badly let down. The sanction for the lack of foresight is at the door of the Department. I am going to leave that issue; I might come back to it in a few minutes.

I want to deal with the national science centre in the Iveagh Gardens. Mr. Conlon describes it in his opening statement as the National Concert Hall complex, but I suspect people nearby see it as the Iveagh grounds or the Iveagh Gardens and probably would describe it as such. That project started out, from looking at the financial situation, with an estimated cost of €7 million. It was €15 million in total, of which €8 million would come from AIB. Then, in 2017, the cost was €29 million. In 2018, it was €40 million. In 2022, it was €47 million. In 2024, the estimate is €50 million. Is this kind of money included in the national development plan, and what Department is involved?

Mr. John Conlon

As the Deputy knows, our input into this particular project is from the point of view of the OPW providing the architectural service, project management, procurement, etc. As regards the funding for this site, I am not aware that it is in the NDP envelopes going forward. As the Deputy knows, this site and project have been an ongoing issue for quite a number of years. As regards NDP allocations over that period, because it was not certain to go ahead, it was, as far as I am aware, not provided in any envelope in the NDP allocation. I think the future funding of this will be subject to future Estimates discussions between the promoters and the Government.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

May I ask about the arbitration? Usually, when arbitration happens, it is because there are two equal sides and you are trying to come to a conclusion or trying to move something on. There have been two arbitrations there.

Why would it even have gone to arbitration? Has an absolute commitment now been given for this location? I know that one of them did not relate to the site.

Mr. John Conlon

At this stage, the State has a legal obligation to provide this premises. I will ask Mr. O'Connor, the State architect, to give some more detail in this regard, if the Deputy does not mind.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Just before we go in that direction, there is another facility out in Sandyford that was repurposed and opened recently. It is on quite a large site of about 20 acres. Does this change the dynamic at all?

Mr. John Conlon

In terms of the funding to be made available, I assume that the promoters of this site, in the business case being developed through the relevant Department to procure funding, will have regard to the business case standing up for this centre to operate.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

To go back to the legal obligation, where does this come from?

Mr. John Conlon

As I understand it, this arose from a commitment made by the OPW commissioners back in 2013.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

A commitment.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Was this a legal commitment?

Mr. John Conlon

I ask that Mr. O'Connor take this question.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Mr. O'Connor.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

It is a legal commitment. When the Deputy mentioned the different figures, this situation goes back to 2007. It was agreed at that time that a project would be undertaken on Military Road. It was actually on the site where the new Garda multitask group is now located. Because of the financial crash and the OPW not being in a position to proceed with the project, the group behind the programme took a legal action in September 2013. The outcome of that action was that the OPW would give a commitment to execute the project. When that did not proceed in the timeline the group thought was appropriate, an arbitration case was taken and the OPW lost.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Sorry, just on this point, has the dynamic changed now given there is a private facility in Sandyford?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

I do not believe so because the legal obligation stands as it is.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

We will have to come back to the subject.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Deputy Catherine Murphy. I call Deputy Ó Cathasaigh.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I thank the witnesses for their opening presentations and for the materials provided. I will start with the issue of rapid-build modular housing for Ukrainians, people arriving under the temporary protection directive. I do not know if people remember the kind of mini press furore when Passport Express was renamed Post Passport. It did not do the Deputy involved in that story any harm. She is now a Minister of State. Looking at rapid-build accommodation, I wonder if this needs a similar renaming. We could have delivered conventional housing within this timeframe. I say this because we are talking about a two-year process from the start to the finish. I think most conventional builders would say they would be able to get something across the line in that time as well. What will be the anticipated cost per unit by the time we arrive at the 700 units being complete?

Mr. John Conlon

I will address the Deputy's first comment to begin with because I think it will help to explain the response to the second question he has asked as well. Regarding the "rapid build" moniker applied to this type of accommodation, I think this should be taken as how quickly it is possible to get the modular units built in the factories where they are being constructed.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I understand modern methods of construction, MMC.

Mr. John Conlon

Yes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

My issue is that I do not believe these units were brought to sites anywhere close to quick enough considering the crisis we face.

Mr. John Conlon

I think the big problem, and I can ask my colleague to develop this point further, with the sites we have and are developing across the country was the huge difficulty we had in getting them ready to construct and place the modular units on. Across these 11 sites, we had consistent difficulties with many of them in relation to bringing them to a state of preparedness that would allow the modular units to be placed on them.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I understand that. I have an awareness of particular sites where there was difficulty doing this. I have an issue around the entire process whereby various organs of the State were asked for sites and the OPW had to pass up 78% of those offered.

Mr. John Conlon

Correct.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

That gives me a very clear indication of what kinds of sites were offered to the OPW. I am not really going to go any further than that because I will just get cross and I do not think I will learn anything from doing that.

Mr. John Conlon

I appreciate the concern-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I wish to return to the question of the anticipated cost per unit.

Mr. John Conlon

Regarding where we are at now, we have not fully finalised the costs for this process because we still have several sites to finalise.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

What is the anticipated cost per unit?

Mr. John Conlon

At this stage, we think that it will be in the region of €350,000.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

It will be €350,000.

Mr. John Conlon

I think it is useful to break down these costs because, as I have indicated, the site development costs are an extremely significant part of the per-unit cost. I ask Mr. O'Connor to give some detail on this matter. In terms of where we were able to manage costs best, it is on the modular-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I will ask a general question before we get into the specifics. I understand there are challenges around undertaking this endeavour. Mr. Conlon is saying that the average cost per unit is going to come out at approximately €350,000. Do we have a market valuation per unit? I ask this question because these units are supposedly here for the long haul and built to last 60 years. If we are talking about a cost of approximately €350,000 in Dublin city centre, we would be talking about something that is fantastic value. If we are talking about a cost of approximately €350,000 in Tallow, County Waterford, we are not talking about fantastic value. Do we have a market valuation per unit?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

I can answer that. A market evaluation would not be appropriate in this case because-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Well, they are going to be here for 60 years.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

We would expect it to be even longer, perhaps twice that length of time.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

We know the temporary protection directive was extended for one year.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

Yes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

These units, therefore, will be emergency accommodation for Ukrainians until April 2026. We do not know exactly when, but this accommodation will then have a 60-year lifespan after that time. At some point, therefore, these houses are going to feature, in one way or another, in the market.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

Yes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Is Mr. O'Connor telling me there is no market valuation of these units?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

No, but-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

If we are trying to evaluate the value for money to the taxpayer, which is the job of this committee, I need to be able to stack up the cost of this accommodation to the State versus its worth to the State.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

I agree with that point, but I think we need to wind this scenario back two steps. These two steps would bring us to the position concerning what kinds of sites we got, which we mentioned already, and the scale of these sites. The most economical scale on which to build houses involves around 200 to 300 units. We are building at a scale of perhaps 50 to 60 units. The biggest site we have has 108 units. There is, therefore, a complete difference in scale. These are also remote sites-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I know, but I want to have a very simple understanding in this regard. I am aware of individual sites. I know many of the sites offered to the OPW were, you know, pig-in-a-poke stuff. The organisations concerned were wondering what they could offer to the OPW. They did not really want these houses to be constructed on certain sites, so the decision was taken to offer the OPW something on a floodplain, for example. I know all these factors.

The very simple understanding I am hoping to get here, however, concerns the fact that it is costing us roughly €350,000 to build each of these houses. I want to know what the current market evaluation of each unit is, because these units will, at some point in time, and relatively close in terms of the lifespans of these properties, become things traded on a market. I wish to ask a very simple question around value for money. Have we any market evaluation of these units? Is Mr. O'Connor giving me the long version of "I do not have a market valuation to tell you, Deputy"?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

We do not. As I said, we did not value them in this way because we had to operate in the context of the land and sites we were given. It was not really an appropriate measurement, then, to apply. I think the appropriate measurement would be whether we got value for money in terms of what was built. I would take issue with the-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

How can I adjudicate on the question of the value for money of what was built unless Mr. O'Connor can tell me, roughly, what it cost to build these units and what value, approximately, they would realise if there was an attempt to trade them? I acknowledge all the provisos concerning the free market not necessarily being the greatest judge of value and blah blah blah. How am I supposed to discharge my basic function here, in terms of evaluating the value for money achieved for the taxpayers, when Mr. O'Connor cannot tell me how much these units are worth?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

With respect, I think it is necessary to add in the right equation to do this, and the right equation is-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

That is great. Mr. O'Connor is the specialist. Do the equation and give me an answer.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

It is not that simple. The closest one I can give the Deputy would involve taking the example of the site at Backweston, which is just on the border with County Kildare. We have constructed a two-storey unit. This is within 10% of a social house. It was done based on only 12 houses being built. The big plus that has come out of this whole programme is that we have taken an embryonic industry and turned it into one that can now assist in the provision of more housing.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Great. I subsidised the private sector. That is fantastic. I am running out of time but I had questions around the fact that these units were developed in conjunction with the Construction Industry Federation. When these are rapid-build units and modern methods of construction are in use all over the world, why could we not find an off-the-peg solution to suit the sites we were using? We are not reinventing the wheel here. We are acting in the middle of a crisis. There were six months to do this. We were mandated to get going on it in April but we did not get anywhere until October. There were six months where we-----

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

With respect, no.

The Deputy is incorrect. We got a Government decision on 28 June. We had a contractor appointed on 4 July. On 27 September, we had subcontractors appointed and on 7 November, we began our first set of houses. That is at 40% of the timeline that the same contractor, Sisk, was building houses in Ballyogan. We did it in less than 40% of the time in which Sisk did it. To be fair, that is a reasonable outcome.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I want to talk about flood relief programmes. We get a narrative involving planning and judicial reviews. How many programmes are held up in judicial reviews? Deputy O'Connor is not here now but the big flood that we had recently affected west Waterford just as much as it did Midleton. People spoke about planning in the aftermath but as I understand it, that flood relief scheme was not held up by planning. How many schemes are in judicial reviews?

Mr. John Conlon

I will just ask my colleague, Mr. Casey, to answer that question.

Mr. Jim Casey

Approximately five flood relief schemes have been involved in judicial reviews. They include the Morell river scheme, the Morrison's Island project in Cork, the Whitechurch scheme in south Dublin, the Poddle scheme in Dublin and the Blackpool scheme in Cork.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I just wanted that information for background because I want to talk about nature-based solutions and soft engineering. We are very late to the table on this. The briefing documentation supplied to us the OPW says that the development of flood relief schemes under the OPW's capital programme now involves a specific requirement to assess the potential for nature-based solutions as part of the overall solution to managing flood risk. Hard engineering does one thing and in particular instances is very much needed. Waterford city is a great example of hard engineering solutions that have provided a really good outcome in flood mitigation and management. However, such solutions are very expensive. Since when has the OPW begun meeting this specific requirement to assess for nature-based solutions?

Mr. John Conlon

Again, I will ask my colleague to take that question.

Mr. Jim Casey

In the past two to three years that has been a requirement.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

How many flood relief schemes have within their planning a significant component of soft engineering or nature-based solutions?

Mr. Jim Casey

We have currently about 100 active flood relief schemes being progressed. About 80 of those are in the first stage of preliminary design. All 80 of the schemes that are currently being designed would have nature-based solutions as a specific requirement of-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

How does the OPW do a cost-benefit analysis of nature-based or soft engineering solutions versus hard engineering solutions? This is a complicated question in several parts. How does the OPW do the cost-benefit analysis? How does it do the natural capital accounting, whereby the cost-benefit analysis takes account not just of flood prevention but also biodiversity benefits, carbon sequestration benefits and so on? How does the natural capital payoff from the work factor into the OPW's equation when it is doing cost-benefit analysis?

Mr. Jim Casey

In terms of cost-benefit analysis, we simply look at the cost of the scheme relative to the benefit of it. The benefit of the scheme is largely about the protection of homes and businesses and what damage would be prevented by implementing the scheme. That largely comes down to putting an economic value on that.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Is there any natural capital accounting element at all, whereby the OPW also includes the attendant benefits of biodiversity pay-off, carbon sequestration, water attenuation within the landscape and so on?

Mr. Jim Casey

Yes. That is an area we are looking into at the moment.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

The OPW is looking into it.

Mr. Jim Casey

It is not a very well established area because-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

There is very good work happening in Trinity College on it. The OPW would not have to go far.

Mr. Jim Casey

I understand that and we do engage with Trinity College on this. We do engage with the current research and the most up-to-date methodologies for undertaking economic evaluations.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Is the OPW talking to the people who are developing the national biodiversity action plan, which is on a statutory footing and which would include provision for these types of metrics? Does the OPW have an eye to the nature restoration law? It is on the rocks at the minute but there is a commitment from the Government to proceed on nature restoration. Are these things factoring into the OPW's equations?

Mr. Jim Casey

Yes, absolutely. We are doing all of that. We are engaging with the NPWS on the nature restoration law. We also do a lot of engagement with the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government on the benefits for biodiversity and water quality.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

We are still at a fairly embryonic stage in that. Is that what Mr. Casey is telling me?

Mr. Jim Casey

No, I would say we are pretty much right up there at using the most up-to-date research and knowledge in that area.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Devlin is next.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I thank our witnesses for being here. It is good to engage with the OPW again. I thank them for the information they supplied in advance of today's appearance. I will start with the non-compliant procurement issue that was raised previously. I understand from the Comptroller and Auditor General that it was raised in 2022 and Mr. Conlon said that it was as a result of internal controls that the OPW found out that there was an issue. The first item that was flagged was valued at €12.9 million. The OPW detailed a number of the elements involved. I ask Mr. Conlon to go through it again. The capital works amounted to €11.4 million, while security ran to €500,000, including ICT and so on. There are a number of different areas covered by this €12.9 million. How come, collectively, there was a failing in terms of non-compliance? How did this come about?

Mr. John Conlon

In relation to the capital works, we have always operated a procurement process for maintenance and minor works whereby contractors are encouraged to bid for inclusion on a list of approved building contractors, which we call the contractors list. That is a competitive process. They go through an application process and we use that list to competitively tender works. I must emphasise that there is a competitive process to this. The issue that arises and that has given us difficulties relates to the thresholds we have applied. We have exceeded those thresholds, thereby breaching the procurement rules, in about 94 cases. We are working on that and are improving our behaviour in that space. In addition, the thresholds are also increasing to bring us more into compliance in that space. One of the reasons it arose as an issue for us is that we just got busier and busier. We were doing more work and pulling down off those contracts rather than doing some more detailed work at the time to make sure we were within the thresholds.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

In terms of the internal controls, it is good that the issue was identified by the OPW itself. It was flagged by the Accounting Officer. How often does the internal audit or internal control committee meet?

Mr. John Conlon

We have a number of different ways of approaching this. Obviously we have our internal audit teams and this would be on their programme. On the procurement side of the house we are paying more attention to how we procure and how we oversee the procurement in-house. That is something that I, as the Accounting Officer, want to improve on further. The committee meets about six times a year. I want to make sure that is not a by-the-by and that not only do we have the meetings but that there is a proper programme of action items to go through.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Without naming individuals, what types of personnel are on the internal control committee?

Mr. John Conlon

As the Deputy can understand, we are quite a significant procurer of these types of services throughout the country so we have a lot of staff engaged in procurement. In terms of the meetings, attendees would include a selection of managers from across the relevant areas.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

We can come back to this at the OPW's next appearance before the committee to make sure the rules are being adhered to. I understand the complexity of the various elements with which the OPW is dealing.

I also want to focus on flood defences. The witnesses highlighted the fact that 100 schemes are currently being worked on and a total of 55 schemes have been completed to date.

Scheme development takes 48 months on average, the planning process takes 24 months on average and detailed design takes 12 months. To the average person looking on, there is a very extensive period before works are even undertaken. Given the events we have seen around the country, the period is too long. Is there any way to speed up the process? Is that being considered? Obviously, there are well-highlighted pinch points around the country where people really cannot wait for so long.

Mr. John Conlon

I understand it is a very difficult message to convey that each of these stages takes quite some time. The first stage, the development and preliminary design stage, involves a huge amount of work across a huge number of areas, including topographical work, hydrological work, hydraulic analysis and extensive environmental assessments, which do take time and often have to be carried out on a seasonal basis. Time is the issue here. It does take time.

Mr. Jim Casey

We very much understand the concern of communities that are being impacted by flooding. There was horrendous flooding last October in Midleton, for example, and almost 700 properties were flooded there. We are very much conscious of the anxiety and hardship caused by that and indeed have visited the site to see it at close hand. We are considering how we can accelerate delivery. Where we cannot do that, such as where it might take a long time to deliver a permanent solution, we are considering the introduction of elements of the scheme in advance or short-term and interim measures in advance. In fact, we are doing that at the moment at Midleton and many other locations.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Good. If the witnesses do not mind, could they forward a note to the committee on the hundred active schemes? That would be appreciated.

Mr. Jim Casey

Sure.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I thank Mr. Casey.

A scheme that is not sold well enough by the OPW is the one that gives individuals free access to certain sites on the first Wednesday of every month. I realise this has been in operation for a number of years. I am wondering whether the OPW is tracking its success, not just at each site but also in respect of take-up by the public. How successful has the programme been?

Mr. John Conlon

We do track visitor numbers at heritage sites. Ms Collier will address that.

Ms Rosemary Collier

I thank the Deputy. The scheme is very successful and it is really important in giving access to people who might not otherwise be able to afford to attend. Our ticket prices are considered incredibly low by comparison with those of other visitor attractions. Obviously, the OPW is keen to ensure access for all citizens in the first instance, to ensure value for money and to support tourism and the economy by having accessible prices for international visitors. The free Wednesdays scheme was introduced by a former Minister responsible for the OPW in 2016 and it has been very successful. We do track the numbers. Every year when we publish our reports on visitor numbers, we include the visitor number line in relation to people who attend-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Specifically for the Wednesdays?

Ms Rosemary Collier

We do. I do not have that number with me but I will get it for the Deputy.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Could Ms Collier send on a note, please?

Ms Rosemary Collier

We do track it. We do find that there are some issues. The language schools in Dublin like to use the scheme for capacity visits with 40 students on a Wednesday. It is used by a range of people as a way of visiting our sites.

We have introduced a new promotion scheme for free Wednesdays through social media. Obviously, we focus on sites in lesser visited areas and on the shoulder season, as Fáilte Ireland would call it. That season is the season of fewer visits from September to December and from about January to March. That is where we focus our promotional efforts.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

That is good to hear. If Ms Collier could send on the note, it would be much appreciated.

Vacant properties in the OPW's portfolio, particularly in the capital, comprise an issue I raised with the Minister previously and that I will continue to raise. Could the witnesses send a note to us on vacant properties in Dublin? My colleague raised issues concerning the valuation of the sites. With regard to the OPW's plans for the sites, some have been lying idle for years. In my area, Dún Laoghaire, there are a number of sites that are allegedly under the auspices of the OPW but we are hearing different plans for them. How many vacant sites does the OPW own across the capital?

Mr. John Conlon

We can provide the Deputy with the detail. I am not sure what specific properties he was referring to but Ms Morrison might be able to follow up with some detail.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Please.

Ms Cathleen Morrison

I thank the Deputy. I have a list of vacant sites but it is not currently broken down by county. The list seems to have very few vacant sites in Dublin, but we can certainly send all the details. If there is a particular one that the Deputy is inquiring about-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

With respect to the former Garda stations, we have been told the local authority was interested. That has been three years on the go. There are other sites and I understand some are being sold. Mixed messages are coming not only from the OPW but also from those on the ground about what will actually happen to the sites.

Mr. John Conlon

Our first port of call concerning these sites is to ask the local authorities whether they want them.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

That is a big question that has been asked for a long time. It is galling for people who see valuable sites in prominent locations, as Mr. Conlon can appreciate. With regard to one particular site, a discussion on a plan to redevelop it went on for a couple of years, and then the local authority was looking at the site for housing purposes. That was at least four or five years ago. I find it hard to fathom that the discussions can go on for so long when the sites are so prominent and valuable. If Ms Morrison does not mind, could she send on a list of the sites? This needs to be tackled. It might not be a matter for the OPW. It might be waiting on other agencies to deal with it; however, from our perspective as members of the Committee of Public Accounts, we-----

Mr. John Conlon

We would have no problem with the follow-up discussion.

An Cathaoirleach

When the information is sent on, could the properties be categorised as residential or commercial?

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Yes, indeed.

An Cathaoirleach

It should not just be a list stating two properties in Baggot Street, for example. It is essential that we get the detail.

To return to the issue of the national children's science centre, in 2000 the OPW committed to the redesign and restoration of the Earlsfort Terrace building. Planning permission was sought and it was granted in 2018 or 2019, I believe. Then there was a request for a tender. It is 26 years since this was first mentioned. With regard to the urgent need, as it is sometimes described, and with regard to the other premises, the other science museum, what is the justification? The State is entering into this. The facility is to be operated by a private company. Why is there still a need for this? Is it a viable project?

Mr. John Conlon

On the viability of the project, I know from recent discussions with the promoter that it will be submitting the business case to the funding Department. In terms of the OPW exposure to this-----

An Cathaoirleach

Has the business case gone to the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform?

Mr. John Conlon

I am not aware that it has.

An Cathaoirleach

We have a representative here from the Department.

Ms Ciara Morgan

No, there is no business case with the Department. Given the extent of the funding for this project, which I understand is estimated to be below €200 million, the business case would not come into the Department anymore. Under the new infrastructure guidelines, it would not be classed as a major capital project. It would be a matter for whatever Department-----

An Cathaoirleach

Regarding the business case, could Mr. Conlon state the current estimated cost?

Mr. John Conlon

We do not have an estimate. We are working through the detailed planning conditions that were set down with An Bord Pleanála. When we finalise them, we will be able to update the financial-----

An Cathaoirleach

What are we talking about? Is it €20 million, €30 million or €40 million?

Mr. John Conlon

No. I suspect it will be in the region of €70 million.

An Cathaoirleach

In the region of €70 million.

Mr. John Conlon

I do not want to be quoted on that because we have not finalised our costings.

An Cathaoirleach

Is it correct that a business case has not come across, even to officials?

Ms Ciara Morgan

That is correct. As I understand it, the promoters have a business case.

An Cathaoirleach

I will come back to the promoters in a moment. How much has been spent on this project so far?

Mr. John Conlon

In terms of money that has been expended, it is in the region of €1.5 million.

An Cathaoirleach

Some €1.5 million has been spent already.

Mr. John Conlon

That would cover a lot of our internal costs and professional fees.

An Cathaoirleach

I am curious about this legal obligation. The centre is to be situated at the National Concert Hall. It will be run by a private company. Meanwhile, in the intervening 24 or 26 years, another one has been built. I am curious about the nature of this legal obligation. Will the witnesses please explain how that happened and the nature of what was involved?

Mr. John Conlon

I will ask Mr. O'Connor to come in here as he has been involved this project for many years.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

It was launched by the Taoiseach and Tánaiste of the day in 2007.

An Cathaoirleach

I remember that.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

That was launched-----

An Cathaoirleach

What of the legal obligation? Can we cut to the chase on this?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

-----and then a legal agreement was entered into. The OPW was obliged to execute it. When the arbitration occurred and the arbitration decision-----

An Cathaoirleach

Step back for a second. There is a missing piece here. With whom was the legal obligation entered into? Is it the OPW or the other group?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

It was the OPW and the Irish Children's Museum group.

An Cathaoirleach

I am sorry about my ignorance in respect of this matter. Will Mr. O'Connor outline exactly who was involved?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

I do not know all the members, but I know Danny O'Hare was a previous-----

An Cathaoirleach

Is it a public body?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

No. It is a group of private individuals who have contributed philanthropic money towards the project.

An Cathaoirleach

It is a group of private individuals and the State has entered into a binding agreement with them. We have found that it could cost in the region €70 million and that, 24 years later, there is no business plan on this with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

The reason for that is the planning decision was only made in the past six to eight weeks because when it went to An Bord Pleanála-----

An Cathaoirleach

Was planning permission not granted first in 2009? The OPW went on to procure technical consultants to prepare a tender contract with a view to preparing a request for tender in the latter part of 2019?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

Going back to the start, when it was up in Military Road, which is near the Royal Hospital Kilmainham, that had permission. That lapsed during the financial crash and then the agreement arose again in September 2013 in the context of providing the centre on the National Concert Hall campus, l large proportion of which was not being occupied at that time. One wing of that is given over for the children's science museum, with some additional works involved. That was a building we had to fix anyway-----

An Cathaoirleach

So it was not actually a new build. It is a conversion of the existing site.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

It is a conversion, and 58% of the money goes towards the historic restoration.

An Cathaoirleach

How much?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

That is 58%, which we would have to do no matter what went into it.

An Cathaoirleach

Was it not a very onerous agreement with a voluntary group?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

It was a Government decision.

An Cathaoirleach

I understand that other people will have contributed.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

An arbitration result like that is like a High Court decision. It is enforceable. We are in a position where, whatever we think, we must execute it.

An Cathaoirleach

What is the current status of the project?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

We got the planning permission five or six weeks ago. We are now in a process. As the Chairman mentioned, An Bord Pleanála put in place conditions and we are looking at what these would add to the budget. We will know that in the next month.

An Cathaoirleach

From the point of view of the taxpayer and the State's investment - I am not saying it is a bad idea, I am just trying to flesh out whether it is a good idea or not for €70 million - have there been projections around income? The Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform has not seen it. This is somewhere in the OPW at the moment or in its parent Department.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

It is not with us.

Mr. John Conlon

It is with that group.

An Cathaoirleach

They have the business case?

Mr. John Conlon

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Is that being made available to the Department?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

I believe it is intended to do that in the next number of weeks.

Mr. John Conlon

In terms of the OPW's role in this, it is not for us to assess the viability of a business case. Effectively, we are the builders of this.

An Cathaoirleach

I understand the OPW's role, I was just curious about that aspect. Would any witness from the Department like to comment?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It is probably not this Department but, I imagine, the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. There is a requirement in an appropriation account that legally binding commitments are disclosed. This project has not been disclosed in the appropriation account, even though, as Mr. O'Connor explained, there is a legally binding commitment.

Mr. John Conlon

We can address that.

An Cathaoirleach

Can we have information in that regard, please? Will the officials send it to the committee?

Mr. John Conlon

We will address that in the appropriation account.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is that the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

No, I imagine it is the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science or the Department of Education.

Mr. John Conlon

There is some decision also around that in relation to the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media as well.

An Cathaoirleach

I will move on to the modular homes for Ukrainians. Back in 2022, there was approval for 700 rapid-build units. What is the cost per unit of those? From previous conversations, I understand that the units measure 45 sq m, which is about half the size of a standard two-bedroom terraced house measuring 90 sq m. What is the cost - including the sites-----

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

The basic cost-----

An Cathaoirleach

-----and the development of those sites - of building, for example, 100 units?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

There are two steps to that. One is that the units come out of the factory already made. That is €145,000, exclusive of VAT.

An Cathaoirleach

How much?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

That is €145,000. They vary. There are five firms producing them because of the speed at which we need them produced. The price varies from €130,000 to €160,000, but the average is €145,000.

An Cathaoirleach

Is that for a 45 sq m unit?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

We base that on the size that the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage requires for a two-person apartment. The reason for this is that if they were to be repurposed for social use, they would match all the standards required in that regard.

An Cathaoirleach

I understand that, but a two-bedroom local authority house would measure 80 sq m to 90 sq m. These are half the size, and even with two bedrooms they are tiny. They only have a 60-year lifespan.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

I will just make a point on the 60 years. This is a convention in a way. For instance, if you are putting your house forward to be assessed for insurance purposes, you are asked if it complies with the 60 years structural average. We reckon we would get about 130 years out of them.

An Cathaoirleach

How much do the units in Rathdowney cost per unit when they are developed?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

I would have to check that. I believe we had to sink a well. Uisce Éireann was not available, and we had to redirect power lines also. I can get that broken down for the Deputy.

An Cathaoirleach

It has worked well, I acknowledge that, but they are very small.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

With the requirement, there are two issues. First, the technology was not there. It was such an embryonic industry. To try to do bigger-----

An Cathaoirleach

They do it in other countries.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

The client requirement was for groups of two to four people, and that is the way the family groups came in from Ukraine. That was the most suitable unit to facilitate that. We also saw it as one that could be repurposed for social housing in Ireland at a later date.

An Cathaoirleach

Is the contractor Sisk doing all of those, including Rathdowney?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

They have done all ten sites yes.

An Cathaoirleach

They have a number of suppliers.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

They have an agreement with five suppliers.

An Cathaoirleach

At the start, I believed these units would be much cheaper. They are coming in at a substantial cost. They are half the size of local authority houses that are constructed, aerated with heat pumps and all the rest of it and that are fully finished on properly developed sites by many local authorities for €280,000 to €310,000.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

In the context of that comparison, it must be remembered that all the services we put into a site - water, electrics and all of that - would be exactly same as those put in place if we were constructing a two- or three-storey building.

However, because of the size that was requested, we do not get the same economics, or scale of economics, working for us. In the case of Rathdowney, the number of units is not of the economic scale to build as we normally would. We deal with the sites available.

An Cathaoirleach

In regard to the tendering for these contracts, one company has the contract to deliver all 700 units. How many companies tendered for this work?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

Originally, there were six. After a number of months, one had economic difficulty and fell out of the process. The other five have remained constant for the past year.

An Cathaoirleach

What is the overall cost of the 700 units?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

A commitments figure of €237 million is shown in the appropriation account of the Department of children.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

If we look at the site in Cork we did early on, the ground conditions there meant we had an additional cost of €320,000 beyond what would be normal. Dealing with the knotweed and other problems cost €365,000. Relocating buried ESB cables of high voltage came in at €200,000.

An Cathaoirleach

I know there were difficulties and that some of the sites were very bad. Rathdowney was probably a good one. Are all those sites now in State ownership or are they leased?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

They are all in State ownership.

An Cathaoirleach

Did they mainly came from local authorities?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

Three of the sites were given by the OPW and the others were put forward by local authorities.

An Cathaoirleach

When the crisis in Ukraine ends, which we hope is soon for the unfortunate people who have had to flee it, is there a possibility of these units reverting to being local authority homes?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

That will be a decision for the Government.

An Cathaoirleach

I know that but they were built with that intention.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

They are a State asset to be used.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. I will suspend the meeting at this point for ten minutes.

Sitting suspended at 11.02 a.m. and resumed at 11.15 a.m.

An Cathaoirleach

The next speaker is Deputy Brady.

Deputy John Brady

I welcome the witnesses. I want to follow up on some of the questions on the national children's science centre. What has happened with that project is a scandal in many regards. It is up there with the MetroLink and the national children's hospital. After 26 years and millions of euro spent, we have absolutely nothing to show for it, other than arbitration and legal expenses. There are serious question marks still hanging over the viability of the business plan and business case associated with the project, how it came about, whose concept it was in the first instance and whether the OPW was consulted as part of the entire process. Mr. Conlon said earlier that no business case has been presented to the OPW to date but he is hopeful of seeing something in the next while. Is that correct?

Mr. John Conlon

I did not use those words. The role of the OPW in this project is as the body that designs it, which we have done, does the procurement and oversees the building of it. In regard to the business itself, it is not for us to make an assessment as to whether it is a viable entity. That is for the Department that will end up funding it. From the perspective of the OPW Vote, we do not directly fund this type of development. It will be funded through whatever Department is responsible for it. We fund flooding works, our own office accommodation and heritage sites. We do not fund this type of development. I will not be assessing the business case for it.

Deputy John Brady

Mr. Conlon made reference earlier to getting sight of a business case.

Mr. John Conlon

I said my understanding is that a business case will be presented to the funding Department.

Deputy John Brady

Okay. Mr. Conlon also said that, so far, there is an exposure of approximately €1.5 million to the OPW.

Mr. John Conlon

That is what we spent on various design and other costs over the past number of years. My colleague, Mr. O'Connor, might provide detail on that if the Deputy requires it.

Deputy John Brady

Does that figure include legal expenditure?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

In terms of the arbitration, that is not yet finalised. That bill has not yet arrived.

Mr. Jim Casey

The figure of €1.5 million would relate to planning applications. Costs are paid at so much per square metre. There would also be surveys and so on. A lot of that work will be of use. We surveyed the wing of the campus in the National Concert Hall area. That had to be done anyway because the buildings are of a certain age. When UCD pulled out in 2007, those buildings were not in the best shape. They need to be fixed. The survey work will be of benefit no matter what happens. As I said earlier, 58% of the funding for the project will go into the historic building.

Deputy John Brady

Regarding the exposure from the arbitration, how much has been set aside to cover legal costs?

Mr. John Conlon

I do not have the figures for that at this stage. We can get back to the committee but I do not yet have any indication what those costs will be.

Deputy John Brady

Mr. Conlon has no indication of the cost.

Mr. John Conlon

Not yet.

Deputy John Brady

It will be extremely costly. Is there no provision put aside to cover legal costs?

Mr. John Conlon

There is not. We will meet the costs from our ongoing resources but I have no indication as yet of what those costs will be. The process is not finalised.

Deputy John Brady

We are looking at €1.5 million plus legal costs before a sod has been turned. I have information to hand suggesting that Irish Children's Museum Limited, ICML, which is centrally involved in this project, has had access to considerable State funding, grants, etc. to get to this point, from numerous Departments. The information I have is that it has received in and around €5 million at this stage through different Departments. This is not a question for the OPW but it is a cause for concern. More than €7 million has been drawn down and spent on this project without a sod being turned. There certainly are further questions for other Departments as to how funding was drawn down and via which funding stream.

That is certainly something that needs to be followed up separately.

Will this project be, or has it been, subject to a business case appraisal in accordance with the requirements of the public spending code? Has that been carried out, or are the officials saying that is for somebody else and not the OPW?

Mr. John Conlon

We are the builder in this case and that will be our obligation. On the business case requirements, as I indicated, they will be for the funding Department in due course to assess.

An Cathaoirleach

If it helps the Deputy, we have Ms Morgan from the Department of public expenditure here.

Deputy John Brady

I will ask that question of her.

Ms Ciara Morgan

We have not seen a business case.

Deputy John Brady

Okay. No business case whatsoever.

Ms Ciara Morgan

That is correct.

Deputy John Brady

That is with probably several million in expenditure. That is extraordinary in anyone's estimation.

I move to site identification, the whole process around that and the public consultation piece, or lack thereof, around identifying the site. How was the site identified in the first instance? What involvement did the OPW have in that process?

Mr. John Conlon

The Deputy means the site of the National Concert Hall.

Deputy John Brady

Yes.

Mr. John Conlon

I ask my colleague to deal with that, if the Deputy does not mind.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

When the scheme was put forward by the Government in 2007 that was Military Road. Subsequently, that was used for the Garda building that was completed about two years ago. As part of the agreement in 2013, the conclusion of the arbitration was to move the site to the present location in the northern wing of the campus at the concert hall. Everything then flows on from there because that is a different site, it is a different building and as I said the historic building will account for 58% of what is involved and the other bits will be new elements that can be used by anyone really. It is almost like an empty vessel that can be filled by whoever uses it for whatever purposes. That is part of the overall complex of redevelopment of the concert hall. The concert hall would then account for the rest of the campus up in Earlsfort Terrace.

Deputy John Brady

Okay, and what about public consultation around that process?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

It went through normal planning. There was a group who walk their dogs in the Iveagh Gardens who felt nothing should happen to it and it should be kept exactly as it was-----

Deputy John Brady

Possibly because it is a public space and would be handed over to a private entity to operate.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

No, the private entity element was something the OPW inherited from Government.

Deputy John Brady

Okay.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

We had no involvement in the selection of that group.

Deputy John Brady

I want to ask about the whole arbitration process and the terms of reference. Can they be made available to this committee?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

What does the Deputy mean by terms of reference?

Deputy John Brady

The legal advice around the arbitration process.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

That happened in two steps, the 2013 one and then the more recent one.

Deputy John Brady

Can those be made available?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

I am sure they can. Do we have legal advice?

Mr. John Conlon

On the legal advice, we might need to take our own advice on that as to whether we can or cannot make it available. We can revert to the Deputy on that.

Deputy John Brady

Revert to us on that. Why were there two separate arbitration processes?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

The first one in 2012 was because the financial crash had occurred and the OPW had not proceeded with the project and that group wanted to ensure it would happen and took the arbitration case that ended with the OPW having to give a further commitment to do it.

Deputy John Brady

Okay. Are those arbitration processes now fully exhausted?

Mr. John Conlon

Not quite. I think we are going through the planning permissions. They are at the next stage and the final stage arbitration will be for the arbitrators to reconvene the parties, which has not happened yet.

Deputy John Brady

Okay. Are the findings of those processes at the conclusion, whenever it is, binding of it? Will they will lock the OPW into going ahead with this?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

They are binding. They have the power of a High Court order, effectively.

Deputy John Brady

The power of a High Court order.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

A person could bring us to the High Court and say, "They have not executed in force" and there would be no defence against that.

Deputy John Brady

Okay. What are the consequences of not honouring that? Has that been looked at? What is the exposure of not honouring the arbitration?

Mr. John Conlon

We need to be careful here. The State does honour its legal obligations. That is something that-----

Deputy John Brady

I have to state I am not asking Mr. Conlon not to. It is subject to the High Court, but I am sure that has been looked at. What exposure to the State is there if it does not honour this?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

What would normally happen is you would get a further enforcement order signed by the President of the High Court. That is the next step that would happen.

Mr. John Conlon

It is effectively a specific performance.

Deputy John Brady

Okay.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy John Brady

The officials said the final bill is not in for the legal cases and the arbitration. There are two separate arbitrations there. Have we any costing at this stage from that process?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

We would have it from 2013. I cannot recall what that was now. It is a long time ago. We could get that figure for the Deputy. With the one that has now happened, what happens is the arbitrator knows the planning has been granted and he decides when to call the groups together and then he issues his final direction. What that would mean in this case is you now have a planning permission you must execute and he will probably ask us for a timescale for execution.

Deputy John Brady

Okay. I will try to come back in, but this entire process, which has left the State at serious exposure, lacks transparency and due process. I think it is being driven by some connected people without any proper process or procedure and there are a lot of procedures for a lot of Departments about funding streams being made available when other science projects have been essentially left to rot on the vine-----

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy John Brady

-----and not been given access to any State funding. They have been told there is no specific funding headings there for it, yet money was made available for this to the tune of in excess of €5 million from different Departments.

An Cathaoirleach

Returning to the question I asked earlier about the legal obligation, which year was that entered into?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

That was 28 September 2013.

An Cathaoirleach

Turning to Ms Morgan, would that have required the approval of a Minister, and which Minister?

Ms Ciara Morgan

I do not know.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask her to come back to me on that, please.

Ms Ciara Morgan

I will.

An Cathaoirleach

I am sure that would require ministerial approval in the general run of things.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

I was actually involved in that one down in the Law Library, because it went on until all hours. Our parent Department was informed of what was happening.

An Cathaoirleach

The parent Department being the Department of public expenditure.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Who was the Minister at the time? Was it Paschal Donohoe?

Ms Ciara Morgan

Brendan Howlin.

An Cathaoirleach

It was Brendan Howlin. I am sorry. Michael Noonan was Minister for Finance.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

In 2013 it might have been Fianna Fáil.

Deputy James O'Connor

It was Labour and Fine Gael.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I am sorry, it was.

An Cathaoirleach

We will not get into that part of it here. Deputy O'Connor is next.

Deputy James O'Connor

I thank the Chairperson. I welcome the OPW and other officials. It will be probably be no surprise to them I am raising the Midleton flood relief scheme and other projects under the OPW's remit. I will draw on something from a 2014 press release by Séamus Whelan to set my argument in motion here. A response the OPW gave to Cork county councillors in the East Cork Municipal District at the time provided information to say it was going to be at least another five to seven years before the Midleton flood relief scheme would be delivered. They were told at the time in 2014 that following an internal review, the OPW will then pass a draft document on to Cork County Council for finalisation that will include fluvial flooding, which is flooding from direct rainfall and therefore important in the context of Storm Babet. It also said the OPW was currently drafting a technical specification procurement document for the appointment of a consultant to the Midleton flood risk assessment and management study.

Let us fast forward nine years to October 2023 when some parts of Midleton were under more than 5 ft of water. Nothing had been done and hundreds of homes were flooded. Businesses were totally and utterly destroyed. People's lives were turned upside down. In some homes, the walls have still not been repaired. The floodwaters rose to hip height and homes flooded not only in Midleton but also in Mogeely, Rathcormac, Ladysbridge, Killeagh and other smaller settlements in that area. Midleton, in particular, the Mill Road area and other parts of the town, were absolutely devastated. While it is hard to get a final estimate of the damage in east Cork, Cork County Council estimates that road damage alone will cost €54 million.

I will also refer to the speed of what happened that day with Storm Babette. Very intensive rainfall took place over a 48-hour period. People were going about their daily lives on the Main Street of Midleton. Ladies in one of the hairdressers on the Main Street who were halfway through getting their hair done found water up to their ankles. The fire brigade went into the community hospital in Midleton and found hot meals floating around on trays when they were trying to evacuate residents. It was a miracle that nobody died.

I have an obligation on behalf of the people who elected me to serve them in Dáil Éireann to ask the OPW why in God's name nothing happened in the previous decade. Those steps should have been taken in 2014. We in east Cork deserve an explanation. I direct that question to Mr. Conlon.

Mr. John Conlon

I acknowledge the severe damage that was done to businesses, people and individuals in Midleton. We have visited. I have not visited yet-----

Deputy James O'Connor

Mr. Conlon has not visited yet.

Mr. John Conlon

I have only been in this job for six weeks.

Deputy James O'Connor

Was Mr. Conlon working in the OPW before that?

Mr. John Conlon

No.

Deputy James O'Connor

Okay. We will let him off on that one.

Mr. John Conlon

I acknowledge and empathise with the people and businesspeople of Midleton in relation to the damage that was done. In terms of the history of the project, I will ask the head of engineering to address the Deputy’s comments and I can come back in.

Mr. Jim Casey

I thank the Deputy for his question. I reiterate what Mr. Conlon said. We absolutely acknowledge the devastation of the Storm Babette event in Midleton and east Cork. It was a horrendous event. Regrettably, we were not in a position to have a scheme delivered to prevent the impact of that event.

Regarding why the scheme was not delivered at that time, the Deputy mentioned that nothing had been done. While I accept that nothing was done to deliver a scheme to protect the community, a lot of work had been done to work towards that objective. In fact, the preferred option for the scheme design had been identified at that stage. The important thing is what happens next after that event.

Deputy James O'Connor

Before we go there, we need a little more detail. How can the OPW justify the fact that nine and a half years after the work got under way, a sod had not even been turned on the project? We need to know the reason. I am genuinely not trying to trip the OPW up. I just cannot understand how those comments could have been made to public representatives at municipal district level in 2014 but then we fast forward nine years nothing had been done. There is now a bill probably just shy of €100 million in damages to the State, private businesses, homeowners and insurance. We merit a better answer than that.

Mr. Jim Casey

To deal with that directly, one of the difficulties with Midleton, which is probably unique in this respect, is that it is at risk from all four different sources of flooding, namely, tidal flooding, river flooding, groundwater flooding and surface water or pluvial flooding. Much of the data and information that was needed to design a scheme to protect against those four sources of flooding did not exist. We had to deploy infrastructure gauges and monitoring equipment to generate that information to inform the detailed design of a scheme. It took a lot of time to provide that. Also, we have a changing regulatory environment-----

Deputy James O'Connor

A decade.

Mr. Jim Casey

We have a changing regulatory environment that requires additional environmental surveys, environmental assessments and reports to be carried out. The OPW has to keep up to date with compliance with all of the regulatory regimes and we are doing that. We also have to bring forward a scheme that meets the needs and aspirations of the community. There is a lot of public consultation to be done. There are three elements-----

Deputy James O'Connor

With all due respect, Mr. Casey referred to the needs and aspirations of the local community but we have been waiting for a decade for a sod to be turned. The consequences of that are now evident from what happened during Storm Babette. It was not the first time Midleton flooded but it was far and away the worst flooding incident that has ever taken place there. I now fear we are going to get caught up in another argument between the OPW and Cork County Council over what is the best way of pursuing this. Is it via the Arterial Drainage Act? Is it through a council-led scheme? I note also the extraordinarily high number of land acquisitions required along the riverbank. It is my understanding that the OPW is arguing against using the Arterial Drainage Act with Cork County Council. Can Mr. Casey explain to me why this is? Does he not accept that not doing so will elongate the process of acquiring acquisitions because of the number of landowners involved? Is this another example of allowing a bunch of cranks to get in the way of the public good? This is about preventing hundreds of homes and businesses from flooding again. Midleton was absolutely devastated. It was a calamity and, as I said, a miracle that nobody died.

Mr. Jim Casey

We are not going to allow cranks to get in the way of anything. Our objective here is to deliver a scheme for Midleton that will stand up to the most extreme events - a 100-year or 200-year tidal event. We will pursue a planning consent route that results in the most efficient and timely delivery of that scheme. That is the clear objective. We are, as the Deputy knows, engaged with Cork County Council to bottom out a decision on this. It is not currently delaying anything. We have a number of weeks and months left to make a final decision on the planning route. We will take a decision that is in the best interests of the project and the community in Midleton.

Deputy James O'Connor

I asked about the Arterial Drainage Act. I imagine the Department of public expenditure is in the OPW's ear saying, from a penny-pinching point of view, that it cannot do this and that the OPW should ram the bill on to Cork County Council. Does Mr. Casey accept, given the extraordinarily high cost of this project, that that would be a crippling amount of money to expect a local authority to pay and that it should come directly from Exchequer funds at a national level?

Mr. Jim Casey

No. I can confirm that the OPW has the funding under the national development plan programme. It has more than €1.3 billion in funding to the end of this decade to fund the Midleton scheme, whatever the costs may be. There is no issue of funding here.

Deputy James O'Connor

In terms of the delivery, will the OPW foot the bill or will it pass it on to Cork County Council? That is the question I asked.

Mr. Jim Casey

The OPW will cover the cost of the delivery of the scheme in its entirety.

Deputy James O'Connor

Okay.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I want to come back to a couple of issues. First, it is my understanding that the OPW will build the children's science facility, the charity will then fit it out and it will then be handed back to the OPW to run. Is my understanding of that wrong or right?

Mr. John Conlon

It is my understanding that the centre will be operated by ICML, not my office.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Will ICML cover the entire cost?

Mr. John Conlon

That would be better for it.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Surely that is an issue that needs to be teased out because it does not have the funding to run it.

Now that there is competition with another facility 11 miles away there is surely an alteration to a business case.

Mr. John Conlon

My understanding is that we will be part of the business case they will make to whatever Department will fund this.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

To be honest with Mr. Conlon, I am still struggling to get my head around how a charitable organisation can have its foot on the throat of the State for something like this. I wish the people in my area were as powerful as this charitable group when it comes to the Castletown House lands where €25 million has been put into a wonderful facility that people cannot access now. I find it very difficult to figure it out. A charitable group brought the OPW to a situation where it had a binding obligation. I have never come across anything like that before. Did the OPW sign the legal obligation? If so, who in the OPW signed it, and on whose authority?

Mr. John Conlon

My understanding – this goes back to the 2013 event that Mr. O'Connor spoke about earlier – is that the document was signed by the then commissioners. Mr. O'Connor was there-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Was it an individual or the head of the OPW?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

It was the chairman and the two commissioners at the time.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Right. Did they get authority from the Department at that stage?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

My understanding is there was a discussion with the Department-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

This was the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform at the time that would have given the authority. If I remember, back in 2013 the troika was here and we were losing public services hand over fist. Reform was the code word for cuts, yet here is a financial commitment being made for something without a business case.

Mr. John Conlon

All I can say to the Deputy is that it was made following a legal process that ended up with the signing of the commitment. That legal process went through the arbitration process.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

For God's sake. I really question the power of the State when it comes to the power of a charitable organisation. I just find that head-wrecking. Will it be the OPW that gets the business case?

Mr. John Conlon

No.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Who will it go to?

Mr. John Conlon

I presume it will go to the funding Department that will be responsible for funding it.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

We already cannot establish which Department is going to be the funding Department.

Mr. John Conlon

My understanding – we are not involved in this – is that-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I can see it being a case of pass-the-parcel here. We will hear: "It is not mine; it is the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science". If we go to that Department, it will say it is nothing to do with it. I can see it will be a case of pass-the-parcel. There must be some combination of Departments involved here. As Mr. O'Connor says, there is work to be done on the concert hall anyway. The one thing that stands out when one looks at Google Maps is that this is like an oasis because there are precious few green spaces in that part of Dublin. It is not just a place for dog walkers, it is a Victorian garden. Was any value put on that?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

Does Deputy Murphy mean a financial value?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

In relation to the Iveagh Gardens.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

The Iveagh Gardens were originally linked. There was a great big exhibition in 1864 and the Iveagh Gardens were designed at that time to link in with the building where the National Concert Hall is now located. You walked out the back of the concert hall, down the avenue and into the Iveagh Gardens. We are reconnecting that historic link.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Right, okay. Will it be out of commission if this happens? The charity is announcing that this is going to be in place by 2028. Does Mr. O'Connor think that is optimistic?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

No, I think what will happen is that when the arbitrator makes his final decision he will put a timeline on the OPW to execute it, so we will be obliged to follow that.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is the arbitrator likely to look at the business case given that there is now a very similar – I fully accept that it is not identical – project that would compete with it in terms of the Explorium in Sandyford?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

Those issues were discussed at the arbitration but the arbitrator found on the basis of law that the OPW was liable to execute the project and it was passed. He will instruct us now when he calls a meeting, probably in the next month or two.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

This is not Monopoly money. It is just very hard to get my head around it.

I want to move on to discuss rapid build. I had a look at the definition of "rapid" and it does not sound like it matches what I am seeing in terms of the timescale for these. I want to raise the longevity of the buildings. I am most familiar with the development at Backweston. It is a sizeable site. There is a temporary protection up to March 2026. There is no planning permission for them because of the temporary nature and the exemptions. A big amount of the money would have gone into the services on the site. It is not just about putting in modular buildings, it is all of the other things that go with them. What happens then and has it been part of the discussion? What happens, for example, when the temporary protection is gone? Hopefully, it will be at the end of the war, but this could go on for a very long time and "temporary" stops. Has there been a discussion about the kind of tenancies involved? I presume the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth will be involved. Has that featured in the discussions at all?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

On the planning side, "Yes". For instance, we have had discussions with South Dublin County Council, the council involved there, with regard to all the road layouts. We conform with all the standards for housing. Effectively, the council knows what it is going to get when we make a formal application on behalf of the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. All that has been agreed, as have all the water connections, the ESB and all of that. That should be a straightforward process whereby we regularise what has been done.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is it a case of looking for retention?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

No, retention will not be required because we have complied with everything. We did not make use of the order that we were given whereby we could have ignored certain things.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

But the OPW did not go through a Part 8 process.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

No, but we went through the section 183 process and we also put forward all the documentation to the building control units in each local authority.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

But what would not have happened is that it would not have been considered in the context of zoned land or looking for other services to go with it, like schools, school places, and the other community facilities.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

But it will be an asset that is there for the State to use for whatever needs it.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It looks like that particular site is fairly close to allocation. How temporary is the allocation? Is that something that has been discussed?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

I would have to ask the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth about that because the OPW hands the building over and the Department is responsible then for its occupation.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What happens?

Mr. David Delaney

Effectively, there is a process with the International Organization for Migration and the team within the Department to identify families within the current Ukraine portfolio to be moved. If people are relatively keen to move into these properties, they are moved in then. Obviously a suitability assessment is done to make sure there are facilities in the area.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What I am talking about is if we suppose the temporary protection finishes in 2026, are the people given a lease up to 2026? What is the story? How does that work?

Mr. David Delaney

From a practical perspective, there would be a one-year agreement, as such, a licence, so that would not get them to 2026. There is no commitment from the State in that sense.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Could I just ask very briefly about the flooding? My colleague talked about Midleton, which is the place that comes most immediately to mind. Some businesses got up to €100,000, which was very understandable, because otherwise we would lose the businesses in that whole area. The one thing people say when areas are flooded is that their biggest fear is that it will happen again, so we could have that same outlay a second time. What people want, insofar as it can be given, is an assurance that it is not going to happen again. Is that amount considered in the overall scheme where there have to be supports on a humanitarian basis for householders and businesses to stay afloat - pardon the pun?

Is that considered in the costings, or does it play any part at all?

Mr. John Conlon

I want to make sure I understand the Deputy's question. Our approach to costing for flood relief is solely focused on what we need to do to bring in flood defence schemes. I think the Deputy is referring to the business and humanitarian supports made available by both the Department of business and the Department of Social Protection. They do not factor into our assessment of our flood relief mechanism going forward.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I am talking about when you do a cost-benefit analysis.

Mr. John Conlon

Yes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Mr. Conlon talked about 25,000 houses or properties. When you do a cost-benefit analysis, surely you will look at the cost of-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy Catherine Murphy

You cannot count the human cost. You know what I mean. Is that cost factored into the cost-benefit analysis?

Mr. Jim Casey

That is exactly how we justify the cost of implementing a flood relief scheme. We look at the costs associated with not having a scheme in place, which are the ones referred to by the Deputy. The impact on the community in Midleton ran into many millions of euro. Deputy O'Connor mention that the cost of damage to roads alone was in excess of €50 million. There is the cost of damage to property on top of that. The costs of those events are severe. All of that is taken into account in the economic justification for the schemes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is everything captured in that? There will be people who had flood relief insurance but will not get it again. Is that counted, or is just the State outlay counted?

Mr. Jim Casey

No, we account for the actual damage and impact on properties, roads, infrastructure and intangible benefits. We generally double that cost of damages to properties, infrastructure and roads to take account of the intangible benefits including anxiety, the impact on community health and so on.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What about the speed of delivery? I understand it takes time to design and there are processes to be gone through and so on. Is it possible to parallel some of the processes where there are huge outlays, if those outlays can be avoided a second time?

Mr. Jim Casey

I think in terms of paralleling the Deputy is asking if there are things we can do faster.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes.

Mr. Jim Casey

There are. In the context of the earlier question, I was getting to the next steps relating to Midleton. We are not just going to do nothing and wait for another few years before the scheme is delivered. We are looking at everything that can be done in between that, in terms of bringing forward short-term and interim measures and individual property protection measures. We are expecting an application from Cork County Council with regard to the latter in the coming days or weeks. Those are some of the interventions we can bring forward. We are also looking at whether small elements of the overall scheme can be delivered in a shorter timescale. We are looking at all of that.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is it being looked at for all of those, or is just one being looked at from that point of view?

Mr. Jim Casey

For locations experiencing extreme events, you would look at those in particular, especially if they will not have a scheme delivered for a number of years. They would have to be prioritised.

An Cathaoirleach

I want to develop that point. I know it primarily affected Deputy O'Connor's constituency. We all saw the effects of it on Midleton, Castlemartyr, Whitegate and Mogeely. I want to focus specifically on the interim measures because we are looking at more than a decade before these schemes are brought into being. The OPW says it is working on this in conjunction with the county council, and it expects approval for measures to be sought from the county council. What exactly will that mean for people in those towns and villages?

Mr. Jim Casey

A number of interim measures are planned for this summer, including the removal of vegetation that might exacerbate flooding, the deployment of debris screens to stop debris getting into channels, the enhancement of early flood warning, the removal of bridges that are presently obstructing flow and individual property protection measures as mentioned.

An Cathaoirleach

The type of work we are looking at across those five towns and villages would include channel widening and removing bridges where the eye is too small.

Mr. Jim Casey

Yes. In the case of Midleton, it means removing bridges that were damaged in the previous flood and are currently an obstruction to flow. It means removing the build-up of debris. Of course we have our minor works scheme. Local authorities can apply to us at any time to bring forward interim and short-term measures to the value of €750,000 in each application. There is no limit on the number of applications.

An Cathaoirleach

I come to the length of time. What caught my eye in the briefing sent to the committee was that the average duration of the scheme development and preliminary design phase is 48 months. I understand what happens when you stop water from flooding one part of a town. In Mountmellick, for example, if you move it from Manor Road, you could finish up with it down in Acragar. There can be unintended consequences. I understand that the planning process must be carefully done. Public exhibition and confirmation can take 24 months, and detailed design can take 12 months. The average length of construction is 36 months and handover of works can take 12 months. That means it takes 11 years, assuming everything goes according to plan. Mountmellick was badly flooded in November 2017, which is almost seven years ago, and there is not a shovel in the ground, to put it simply. What can be done to shorten that? The public are looking at this. It takes 11 years. I hope I am wrong, but it would not be an exaggeration to say that this could drag on for 13 or 14 years. Houses and businesses on Manor Road, Derrycloney, Moore Street and Patrick Street were damaged. There have been several heavy rain events since, where water has come down from the Slieve Bloom mountains. It rains heavily and three hours later it arrives in Mountmellick. I acknowledge that the county council has done a lot of the work Mr. Casey has talked about. While they are not removing bridges, they are clearing the eyes, widening channels, taking away debris and putting in screens. It has come close to flooding again on a number of occasions. Businesses including a restaurant were flooded. Somebody mentioned plates floating around in Midleton. We were almost in that situation in Mountmellick. What can be done to shorten this, because it is not acceptable that we could be waiting 12 or 13 years for a scheme to come in for Mountmellick and Portarlington, which was also flooded that day? Surely to God, with all of the expertise we have, the 48-month timeframe can be shortened. Surely the planning process and the 24-month exhibition phase can be shortened. There is also room for shortening the detailed design phase. I understand that construction on its own takes 36 months and the handover takes 12 months. Surely all of those could be reduced. I was led to believe, in my naivety, that this would take three or four years. That was mentioned at previous hearings. Maybe I got the wrong impression when the OPW was here in the past, but I thought we were looking at between five and six years. However, I read last night in the briefing document that was sent to us that this will take 11 years, which is extraordinary.

Mr. Jim Casey

It is a concern for us and it is undoubtedly a concern for residents. It is not unusual in an international context. We visited Germany in the past 12 months and heard similar concerns.

An Cathaoirleach

What are other countries doing to shorten the time? That is what I want to know.

Mr. Jim Casey

There are measures you can bring forward to solve problems more quickly, maybe where problems are more easily defined and less complex.

An Cathaoirleach

If it is taking 48 months for scheme development and preliminary design, somebody who had a full head of hair at the start of the process would be bald by the time a scheme comes on stream.

Mr. Jim Casey

I can give some explanation around the duration of four years. The bottom line is that design of flood relief schemes is very complex. It is not straightforward.

An Cathaoirleach

I understand that.

Mr. Jim Casey

As I said earlier, there may be multiple sources of flooding. We have to collate the data and carry out surveys. In some cases, involving environmentally sensitive areas, the carrying out of surveys requires statutory consent. We must undertake detailed analysis and develop sophisticated hydrological and hydraulic modelling. Subsequently, we have to come up with a scheme that will actually solve the problem and will stand up to judicial reviews, legal challenges and so on.

An Cathaoirleach

At what stage is the Mountmellick scheme? Five stages are set out in the briefing. Is it at stage 3, which is detailed design?

Mr. Jim Casey

Mountmellick is currently at the preliminary design stage. We are progressing that stage.

An Cathaoirleach

Is that stage 2?

Mr. Jim Casey

Preliminary design is stage 1.

An Cathaoirleach

Seven years on, we are still stuck at stage 1. At the rate this is going, a lot of us will not be around when the project is constructed. It has to go through five stages. The length of time it is taking is leading to an increase in costs but my main concern is the impact every time there is heavy rainfall. Unfortunately, due to climate change, rainfall levels are getting more intense. People in the town are paying close attention to the weather forecasts. People in Portarlington are the same. After seven years, the project is stuck at stage 1. What I am being told this morning is incredible. What will the OPW do to advance this scheme?

Mr. Jim Casey

I understand there were a lot of issues with the scheme. Its scale changed once it got into the early stages of design. The problem became a much bigger one. There were influences from upstream bridge structures. It became a much more complex scheme than was envisaged in the early stages. This is something that often happens with flood relief schemes. At the preliminary stage, a scheme may appear to be straightforward but when we get into the detailed analysis and design-----

An Cathaoirleach

I know it turned out to be a bigger job than expected. There is a whole area that now requires installation of a flood defence. I know that from talking to somebody in the local authority about it. Is there anything that can be done to advance progress? Deputy Murphy made a helpful suggestion about doing some of the steps in tandem. Surely we can do something to advance the Mountmellick scheme? It is seven years now since the place was flooded, which is way beyond 48 months. The alarm has gone off on this scheme. Can it be wrapped up quickly at this stage? Mr. Casey and I know the design of the scheme is pretty well done and dusted. Is that fair to say?

Mr. Jim Casey

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

The design is fairly detailed, involving walls and embankments.

Mr. Jim Casey

Much of what has delayed the scheme has been addressed. It should move forward at a much faster pace from now on.

An Cathaoirleach

Can the public exhibition period be shortened to a month? It should be well advertised locally but it does not need to go on for 24 months. The planning process should not take as long as it does. Does the planning application go straight to An Bord Pleanála or does it go to the local authority?

Mr. Jim Casey

In this case, it would be done under Part 10 of the Planning and Development Act 2000, as amended.

An Cathaoirleach

It will go to the local authority.

Mr. Jim Casey

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Laois County Council will not take that long to process it.

Mr. Jim Casey

We will look at all ways of accelerating delivery. In fact, we do that as a matter of course for all our schemes.

An Cathaoirleach

We have covered the collateral damage and the costs associated with it. If the town is flooded again, in a more intense way than it was in 2017, we will be looking at huge costs to businesses and householders. An elderly couple had water nearly up to the windowsills of their house on Manor Road. I am thinking of that elderly couple and others whose homes were flooded. Will Mr. Casey come back to the committee with information on what can be done at this stage to accelerate the scheme?

Mr. Jim Casey

We will look into that.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Ó Cathasaigh mentioned using natural methods involving flood plains. That may be appropriate but here is potentially an unintended consequence to it. There is a group of houses in Derrycloney, approximately three quarters of a mile from Mountmellick, that may suffer unintended consequences. If the flood plain is used, while it may stop flooding on Manor Road, it might cause flooding in Derrycloney. Will Mr. Casey come back to me with a report on that?

Mr. Jim Casey

The flood relief schemes and local authority schemes the OPW funds are designed not to worsen flood risk in other locations. We put a particular focus on that.

An Cathaoirleach

I understand, accept and appreciate that Mountmellick is a very difficult location because it is very flat. We are talking about moving water around. That water will go from one place to another. There is a group of residents in Derrycloney who are very concerned about that at the moment.

Where is the OPW at with the Portarlington scheme?

Mr. Jim Casey

The Portarlington scheme is also at stage 1, that is, preliminary design. The scheme will deliver protection to 72 properties. It is on schedule to submit for planning permission in quarter 1 next year, in February.

An Cathaoirleach

When are we likely to see completion of the Mountmellick scheme? Will Mr. Casey provide a projection?

Mr. Jim Casey

Construction is to commence in July 2025.

An Cathaoirleach

Are we looking at a construction period of two or three years?

Mr. Jim Casey

Construction will probably take at least three years.

An Cathaoirleach

We are looking at 2029, realistically, or the end of the decade.

Mr. Jim Casey

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

What is the expected completion date for the Portarlington scheme?

Mr. Jim Casey

Construction of the Portarlington scheme is to commence in the middle of July 2026 and will probably take at least three years.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. I appeal to Mr. Casey to do everything possible to advance the two schemes. I do not envisage long delays by the county council but somebody, probably somebody not affected by the flooding, may put in an appeal to An Bord Pleanála.

Deputy O'Connor wishes to come back in. He has ten minutes

Deputy James O'Connor

I want to raise two other important issues. The first concerns communication and is addressed to Mr. Conlon. As an Oireachtas Member representing the constituency affected by Storm Babet, I am critical of the OPW's communications. We have been given no proper briefings. All information must be sought. Committees were put in place by the local authority. We have involvement by the officials within the local authority, the Minister, the OPW and the Department of local government. There are a lot of moving parts and an awful vacuum for misinformation. Different stories are going around about what is or is not happening and who did or said what. A situation like that is not good for the public. People need to know where they stand. I would appreciate if Mr. Conlon would make an effort to engage with Oireachtas Members on a quarterly basis, or, if possible, a monthly basis, to keep us informed of the important decisions being taken around the planning process, different issues that may arise and what exactly is going on. I do not think that is too much to ask.

Mr. John Conlon

I have no problem with that. In previous working lives, I have had good consultative processes with Oireachtas Members and that is something we can work on. I can give that undertaking.

Deputy James O'Connor

Perfect. That would be appreciated. The second issue I want to raise is more of an issue with the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform, to be honest, but it is all the same. I am very confused around why there is this system of tranches. Having tranche 1 and 2 schemes effectively means the OPW will not bother doing it until it can get a few bob off the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform. This came into effect in terms of Rathcormac and Castlemartyr and when we go up the stream from Castlemartyr to Mogeely. Gleann Fia got absolutely battered. That estate was destroyed. The residents were very lucky that nobody was injured there. It was awful, and the ramifications of that still are. That tranche 2 system is the height of administrative stupidity. The consequences of it have huge ramifications for people's lives. Has the OPW had a conversation with the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform to basically explain that the more we delay these schemes, the more the OPW ends up footing the bill every time there is a flood incident? Has that conversation been had with the Department?

Mr. John Conlon

Not directly, but we are operating within a funding model which is agreed with the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform, with €1.3 billion to 2030. Within that context, we will always engage with the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform on the basis of an annual Estimates process if we require that to be augmented. That is an annual process with the Department through the Estimates process. We will do that, and we are doing it.

I will ask my colleague to address the question on tranche 1 and 2.

Deputy James O'Connor

Before we move on to it, Mr. Conlon might expand on that point. The tranche 2 villages in question are obviously Mogeely and Castlemartyr and that section of river, and also the localised flooding because groundwater was an issue, and Rathcormac. Those settlements flooded as a consequence of Storm Babet. Is there a prioritisation system or any system whereby the OPW can go back to the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform and say that it knows they are in tranche 2 but, unfortunately, it has now learned that they are at high risk of flooding, there have been a number of incidents there in the past 15 years and they need to be prioritised. Is there a mechanism for the OPW to go to the Department to say this settlement has flooded more than once in a short space of time and it needs to be prioritised?

Mr. John Conlon

I do not necessarily think we would need to be going to the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform if we are making our own assessments within the funding we have available to us.

Deputy James O'Connor

However, tranche 2 was the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform's idea - putting them into tranches to stagger them out so it does not have to pay for them-----

Mr. John Conlon

Can I ask Mr. Casey to take this?

Deputy James O'Connor

Then, we end up with what happened in Midleton where there is nothing after ten years of waffle

Mr. Jim Casey

I will respond to that. I mentioned earlier that we are actively pushing forward on delivering 100 flood relief schemes in the State at the moment. As the Deputy will appreciate, that is not a small undertaking. We have a further 50 schemes on top of that. It is not physically possible or achievable to just deliver 150 flood relief schemes all at the same time. There are not enough resources available. We need specialist engineering resources. We need specialist survey companies to acquire the data.

Deputy James O'Connor

I accept that.

Mr. Jim Casey

It is just not possible

Deputy James O'Connor

Chairman, in all fairness, this is my question. They have flooded more than once over a short space of time. It is repeatedly happening. Some of these schemes are still in tranche 2. Has the OPW a system? There is a lot of merit to what I am asking. People in Castlemartyr, Mogeely and Rathcormac will probably agree with me. Where repeated flooding is happening, is there any mechanism in place to effectively tell the funding source the OPW requires, which is the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform, that we need to speed this up and need additional money and funding now?

Mr. Jim Casey

The way we would deal with that is in terms of our roll-out of tranche 2. We would prioritise such locations when we are in a position to press forward with tranche 2. The difficulty with that, however, is that if we prioritise some of those tranche 2 schemes, we will inevitably delay some of the present tranche 1 schemes. The tranche 1 schemes already identified were prioritised and selected on the basis of protecting the most properties. All those areas in tranche 1 - the 100 locations - are equally at risk of flooding. We could have flooding at any time at any of those locations. Therefore, it is very difficult to narrow in on one area, as the Deputy is suggesting. However, what we can and are doing is seeking to bring forward quick measures that can at least manage the flood risk that is there. I will give the Deputy an example of that. As recently as in the past month, when we went to visit Mogeely, we arranged with Cork County Council for consultants to be brought in there to look immediately at what immediate measures could be brought forward to at least manage that situation while we are waiting for a permanent scheme to be delivered under tranche 2.

Deputy James O'Connor

Does Mr. Casey accept then where these situations could be allowed to progress for ten years that we might actually have a bit of a problem? If we look at Rathcormac and other areas, they have been waiting an awful long time for the delivery of the flood relief schemes locally. We have delved into Midleton because, obviously, that was the area that was worst hit. However, those villages in particular have been waiting. It is not like this has happened overnight. This has been a long time in the pipeline.

Mr. Casey may have some update on one other issue. We discussed on the day the N25 corridor between Castlemartyr and Killeagh. A number of rural settlements there were flooded. Has any update been provided to the OPW? I know TII was involved around the clearance of drains from the national road, which was also affecting homes. A scheme was undertaken to deal with the underground cave situation locally because the water had obviously risen above the water table. It had risen so much it came over the height of the caves and flooded the national road. We discussed this on the day, but was any update provided to the OPW after that ministerial visit?

Mr. Jim Casey

No, I do not have any updates since that recent visit to Cork. However, what I would say is that the task and remit of clearing drains and urban drainage systems is really the responsibility of the local authorities. To answer the Deputy's question directly, I have not had any update since our visit.

Deputy James O'Connor

Okay.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. Deputy Murphy has six minutes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I have three issues I would like to raise. I acknowledge that flood relief is complex. We certainly had some very successful schemes in County Kildare and they have stood the test of time. I acknowledge that it has to be done right and that it is complex, but this is also about looking at the devastation it causes for people. Speed is the big issue here, as is the number of staff. The OPW outsources quite a bit to private contractors. Is the OPW looking at increasing its internal numbers with this kind of expertise so that at least it has some permanency and knowledge it can bring from one scheme to the next?

Mr. John Conlon

As the Deputy suggests, we do use both our own resources and contractor resources just to have sufficient capacity to deal with what we have to deal with. One of the challenges we are facing, both within our own staff cohort but also in the contracted service providers we have, is the procurement of the specialist civil engineering staff, which is a problem we are trying to address. We are bringing in civil engineer interns. We are running training programmes. We are going into colleges to try to get more in. That is one marked challenge for us, but it is also a challenge for the contracted providers we have. We are liaising closely with the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. As I said, we are using internships. We are using graduate programmes to make us an employer choice in that space. We are having some slight success, but we are keeping at it.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is the OPW doing calls outside of the State for that kind of expertise?

Mr. John Conlon

We have. We looked at trying to bring people back from abroad and that type of stuff as well, with limited success, but it is something we just keep at.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I will move on to something else. Are the Hikvision systems still being procured by the OPW?

Mr. John Conlon

Which systems?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The Hikvision cameras. They are Chinese cameras. I think there are some of them here. There was an issue-----

Mr. John Conlon

I am not familiar with this.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is anyone familiar with this?

Ms Rosemary Collier

I am familiar with it. They are used in security systems, and I think some of them are actually in Leinster House.

The relationship relating to the Hikvision cameras is with the contractors. Mechanical and electrical contractors have a contract with us to provide the services and facilities in the buildings. They do not backup to a cloud and there is no external third-party access to what is recorded on those systems.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The OPW is still happy to use these cameras.

Ms Rosemary Collier

My understanding is that the physical thing that you see on the wall is a Hikvision-produced camera. However, the Hikvision company has no access to the data or what is recorded on the systems.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The OPW consults with the National Cyber Security Centre.

Ms Rosemary Collier

Yes, and our mechanical and electrical teams have a very specific security protocol in terms of what is recorded and who has access to the material.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I thank Ms Collier for that. She will forgive me for raising an issue that is local in nature. The OPW has had a number of successful negotiations recently, including the one in Meath and the one in Kerry, in the context of adding to the number of national parks, although I know parks are not a direct asset of the OPW. How does the OPW go about its negotiations? Were any lessons learned from the situation relating to Castletown House, for example? The one thing the committee is acutely aware of is getting for value for money, but value for money is a complex concept. The asset there is priceless and access to it was something that really required consideration. It just looks sloppy that the situation at Castletown was allowed to develop. Vehicular access was vital. I understand Lime Avenue was designed for horses and carriages. On average, 2,000 people a day are walking in and out, which is wonderful to see, and it saved people during Covid, when it was greatly appreciated. The issue is the mixing of cars and pedestrians, particularly when people had 17 years of it being limited to pedestrian access. There is a lack of any kind of car park for people visiting this national facility. A car park is essential.

Is the OPW looking at the negotiation strategy, even at this stage, or will it wait until it comes to a final solution in respect of this matter? I know the objective is to reunite all the lands that historically made up the demesne of Castletown House. Has there been a change in strategy as a consequence of what happened in this case?

Ms Rosemary Collier

I will break it into two parts. The Deputy had a question on our approach to the acquisition of heritage properties or lands and our process around that. My colleague Ms Morrison, who works on the estates side, has a property advisory service. We have professionals in the property valuation section who deal with assessing any property that comes to the market that we may have an interest in. For example, the Deputy mentioned Dowth, which was offered on the open market in the same way that the lands at Castletown were ultimately offered. Immediately, our portfolio planners and valuers are involved in the assessment of what is offered on the open market and they work to generate valuations and deal with the negotiation process. Offers are then made through the auctioneer or the vendor, whichever happens to be the case.

In the case of Castletown, there was a closing date and people had to put in best bids. With Dowth, interested parties continued to bid. A final offer was accepted in respect of Dowth. We were not involved in the property acquisition in Kerry. To be clear, it was the National Parks and Wildlife Service that was directly involved in procuring the lands at Connor Pass, Mount Brandon and Inch.

In our property advisory service, we have a team of professional valuers and property portfolio planners who are property professionals. They do all of that work. I assure the Deputy that there was nothing unusual about it. This is the normal way in which we proceed with getting valuations, making bids and, hopefully, securing whatever it is that we are trying to secure. In the Castletown instance, we were outbid, as the Deputy knows.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Ultimately, not bidding and not appreciating the importance of it could cost more.

Ms Rosemary Collier

We would argue that we absolutely do appreciate the importance of it. We tried to acquire it both off-market and through the formal market process. The commitment of the OPW to Castletown is incontrovertible. We started out with 13 acres and we now have 230. Our policy continues to be to reunite the historical State lands as those opportunities arise and it is our ambition to do that. Our bona fides in regard to Castletown are well established. We see the significance and the value of Castletown and we have certainly been extolling the significance of Castletown from a historical perspective as the largest Palladian mansion in Ireland, which is significant from an international perspective. I assure the Deputy that the OPW absolutely does understand the value and significance of Castletown.

An Cathaoirleach

With regard to the situation in east Cork to which Deputy O'Connor referred, in particular the interim measures for the towns and villages, will the OPW come back to the four Deputies in the area? They have been raising it in the Dáil and they receive many inquiries from the public. It is important that they are kept up do date on it.

I have a question regarding the Department of agriculture in Portlaoise. I do not expect the witnesses to have the answers to any of these questions on the hoof but I ask them to come back to the committee in regard to the number of premises rented currently by Departments in Portlaoise. I know it has narrowed down but there were seven at one stage for the Department of agriculture alone. I ask the OPW to come back to us. Who takes responsibility for that?

Ms Cathleen Morrison

I do.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask Ms Morrison to come back to us with that information on the number of premises rented and the cost involved per annum. I have previously highlighted the issue of the site on Mountrath Road. I was back and forth on this with Mr. Buckley, Mr. Conlon's predecessor. It cost in the region of €1 million. It was purchased following the time of decentralisation in 2002. Prior to the local elections, there was an announcement which looked like it came off the back of an envelope or a cigarette box. That site is lying idle. Seven premises were rented in the meantime. There is a cost per year for renting premises, so it has been costing a fortune. All sorts of unusual premises were used, including one and two-bedroom apartments in a housing development to house the Department, with inadequate Internet connections.

With regard to the site on Mountrath Road, while they may not have the answer now, the witnesses might tell me what is going to happen to this site. The Garda station was going to be relocated there temporarily while works were carried out on the main Garda station. The bushes are growing pretty high on the site at the moment. It is a good, natural, wild area and given we are trying to rewild areas, the only function that I can see it providing at the moment is carbon sequestration. It is sitting there. We cannot afford to have sites like this sitting there in a town the size of Portlaoise. It has to be put to use. If the OPW is not going to use it, we need to decide what it is going to be used for. Does the OPW have any information on this matter?

Ms Cathleen Morrison

Yes, I can give that information. As the Chair knows, we originally bought it around 2007.

An Cathaoirleach

For about €1 million?

Ms Cathleen Morrison

Yes, it was €1.03 million. Our interest in it is by way of a long-term lease from IDA Ireland, so the uses we can put it to are restricted and it was specifically for Government offices. We were in discussions with IDA Ireland this time last year in regard to temporary use for the Garda Síochána but that did not work out and we met that requirement separately. I have initiated discussions with IDA Ireland to discuss what possible future uses-----

An Cathaoirleach

It is on a long-term lease from IDA Ireland.

Ms Cathleen Morrison

IDA Ireland owns the site. We have a 999-year lease on it.

An Cathaoirleach

At a cost of €1.2 million.

Ms Cathleen Morrison

It was €1.03 million. We do not pay an annual rent. We bought out that lease but it is not completely free title.

We have to get permission to use it for anything other than Government offices, which is what is specified in the lease. We will have to discuss that with the IDA.

An Cathaoirleach

Will Ms Morrison come back to me with an update on that?

Ms Cathleen Morrison

Yes, I will.

An Cathaoirleach

I have a question for Ms Collier on Emo Court. There are plans to carry out extensive work there. Will she briefly describe what is happening at Emo Court?

Ms Rosemary Collier

At the moment, we are concluding works in the basement area of the house and on the first floor. We got funding through the RRDF to develop a new part of the attraction at the House and to refurbish the basement area. Those works are nearing completion.

An Cathaoirleach

Will there be public access to the House because there has not been?

Ms Rosemary Collier

There will indeed. We are hoping to have something by July of this year and to reinstate public access. There is also a larger scheme. The roof has issues and is now starting to fail. We applied for planning permission for that larger scheme through the local authority and received full planning permission two months ago. There is a scheme to redo the full roof.

An Cathaoirleach

Has a contractor been selected?

Ms Rosemary Collier

No. We are in the design stage of that scheme and have not gone to tender yet.

An Cathaoirleach

It is at design stage. The roof will look the same, will it not?

Ms Rosemary Collier

It will, yes. We are replacing the copper dome and copper obviously takes time to age into that green colour so it will not look identical for the first 25 years or so. It will take time to-----

An Cathaoirleach

It was James Gandon's creation.

Ms Rosemary Collier

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

I hope it will look somewhat the same.

Ms Rosemary Collier

It will look the same.

An Cathaoirleach

It should not be changed too much.

Ms Rosemary Collier

It is a very complex conservation job but our aim is to fully conserve and represent the house to the highest standards.

An Cathaoirleach

Is all of the slated part of the roof to be done as well?

Ms Rosemary Collier

We are proposing a full roof project. We will also deal with the facade issues on the house. It is a large-scale project and the outer envelope of the house will be fully conserved.

An Cathaoirleach

It obviously will not be open to the public until the roof and so on are completed. Are we looking at a couple of years down the line before it is open to the public?

Ms Rosemary Collier

We are going to maintain public access while that work is ongoing. We will effectively build an over-roof so that work can proceed on the roof. We will maintain access to the ground floor and the basement. The house will continue to function as an attraction once it reopens later this summer.

An Cathaoirleach

Are any issues arising that could hold that up?

Ms Rosemary Collier

There has been nothing significant. We have to have all of our environmental surveys and back derogation licences, which the Cathaoirleach will know about. We work within the parameters of all of those things.

An Cathaoirleach

While I have the OPW here, I will ask about Heywood Gardens. We are lucky to have Heywood Gardens and Emo Court. We do not have a coastline but we have Heywood and Emo in Laois. They are two wonderful facilities. I do not want to go back over this again but Mr. Conlon's predecessor came back to me with an explanation as to why all the natural woodland at Heywood was being bulldozed, with all of the wildlife going with it. That should not have happened. In the process of doing that, a lot of the pathways were absolutely destroyed. In wet weather, the pathways are now mud in places. Can something be done with them? There are lovely walkways but, when walking through the gardens in wet weather, parts are not in good shape. It is a question that is being raised with us and with local elected representatives. Will the witnesses come back to me on that? Money was spent clearing out all of the natural vegetation. It was not Chinese knotweed; it was the same natural vegetation you would see on the floor of any natural forest in Ireland. Some of that money should have been put into the paths. It is the one weak point. It is noticeable when going down to Gill's Pond from the entrance. The witnesses might come back to the committee on that within a week or so.

Ms Rosemary Collier

Sure.

An Cathaoirleach

The last thing I want to ask about is also a historical site, the courthouse in Portlaoise. Is Mr. O'Connor able to tell me anything about that?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

The site has been bought by the Courts Service but, as of now, it has no capital funding to advance the project.

An Cathaoirleach

It is not in the national development plan.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

No.

An Cathaoirleach

The cash is not there for it. There is still no cash.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

I will give the Cathaoirleach an example. The family court just behind the Four Courts will be on site next year. We did that for the Courts Service. We would do the same in Portlaoise but the funding must be executed to go ahead.

An Cathaoirleach

Is Mr. O'Connor saying the family court in Portlaoise Courthouse will be on site-----

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

No, I am sorry. I am talking about the family court here in Dublin, which will be behind the Four Courts. We have executed that and it will be going on site next year. The site in Portlaoise is part of the next tranche to be done but there is no funding for it.

An Cathaoirleach

The family end of it will be separated out from the main court area.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

The situation at the moment is very unsatisfactory.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

It will be a similar courthouse to that in Letterkenny.

An Cathaoirleach

I went in just before the election to collect documents regarding the election from the county registrar. I was looking at people who were there to deal with separation and divorce cases. They are there in the public area and a whole lot of other stuff is going on around them. What Mr. O'Connor is basically saying is that there is a site but there is no money to build.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

That is something political to be moved on.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

May I ask a question? There is obviously going to be a larger number of Oireachtas Members elected at the next general election. The census dictates the ratio. Has the OPW been asked to plan for extra facilities? When will that be triggered?

Ms Rosemary Collier

The Deputy will know that work to accommodate the Oireachtas in the Chamber has already happened in the bullring area and that part of the Chamber. Those works are complete and the accommodation is available for the additional headcount when a general election arises. The accommodation piece is more challenging. Ms Morrison and her team are working on the accommodation requirements for the Houses of the Oireachtas. As the Deputy will know, we work through the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission, with which we have monthly meetings. We also have a steering group with the senior officials here in the Houses of the Oireachtas. There is an ongoing conversation about how to deal with those accommodation needs and the fabric and requirements of the buildings. That formality around the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission is very strict. We meet every month. Ms Morrison and her team are looking at the accommodation requirements that might arise from the additional Oireachtas Members.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

They are expected to arise because we know-----

Ms Cathleen Morrison

Work has started. We are working very closely with the Oireachtas Commission.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is Ms Morrison confident that there will be office space available immediately after the general election?

Ms Cathleen Morrison

I suppose it depends on when the general election is but we will have that space. We are working very closely with the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission to cater for that.

An Cathaoirleach

According to all and sundry, the election will be next March. That is for definite now. We can stand over that so Ms Morrison need not worry. Some of the Deputies are based in the Department of agriculture's building. Deputy Murphy is over in that Soviet block, is she not?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

With working from home, there may be a possibility of extra space becoming available there. Maybe it is full out. I do not know but that may be an option if offices had to be provided.

Ms Cathleen Morrison

All options are being looked at.

An Cathaoirleach

There may be some vacant space there. By the look of it, LH 2000, this place here, is fairly full.

Ms Cathleen Morrison

Yes. Every option is being explored.

An Cathaoirleach

Once we have it for next March, it will be okay. That concludes the questions. I thank the witnesses from the Office of Public Works, the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform for the work involved in preparing for today's meeting. As always, I thank the Comptroller and Auditor General and his staff for attending and assisting the committee. Is it agreed that the clerk will seek any follow-up information we have sought and carry out any agreed actions arising from the meeting? Agreed. Is it also agreed that we will note and publish the opening statements and briefing provided for today's meeting? Agreed. The committee will suspend for five minutes to allow the witnesses to leave before resuming briefly in private session before suspending for a longer break.

The witnesses withdrew.

Sitting suspended at 12.38 p.m., resumed in private session at 12.42 p.m. and went into public session at 1.47 p.m.