COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 11 Jul 2024

Vote 30 - Agriculture, Food and the Marine

Mr. Brendan Gleeson(Secretary General, Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine) called and examined.

An Cathaoirleach

We have apologies from Deputies John Brady, Ciarán Cannon and Imelda Munster.

I ask all those in attendance to ensure that their mobile phones are switched off or on silent mode.

I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege.

This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege. It is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure it is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative they comply. Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Members are also reminded of the provision of Standing Order 218, that a committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objective of such policies. Furthermore, it is not the role of the committee to make findings of fact about a person who is not a Member of the Oireachtas that could potentially defame a reputation. I ask members to be mindful of this in their examination of the issues in question this morning. Members and witnesses should also refrain from commenting on matters that may be subject to live criminal investigations.

The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee and he is accompanied this morning by Ms Irena Grzebieniak, deputy director at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. This morning, we are engaging with officials from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine to examine the appropriation account from 2022 for Vote 30 - Agriculture, Food and the Marine, and the Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022, chapter 10, on estate management in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. We are joined by officials from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine: Mr. Brendan Gleeson, Secretary General; Mr. Martin Blake, chief veterinary officer, Ms Sinéad McSherry, assistant secretary, Mr. Paul Savage, assistant secretary, Mr. Bill Callanan, chief inspector, and Mr. Gordon Conroy, assistant secretary. We are also joined by Ms Kate Ivory, principal officer from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. They are all very welcome. I call the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, for his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The 2022 appropriation account for Vote 30 - Agriculture, Food and the Marine records gross expenditure of €1.89 billion. Appropriations-in-aid of the Vote amounted to €409 million. The surplus of the amount provided over the net amount applied in the year was €122.5 million. The Department received permission to carry €27.5 million in unspent 2022 capital allocations over for spending in 2023. The remaining €95 million was liable for surrender back to the Exchequer. The appropriation account is presented under four programme headings. The largest by value is the farm sector support and controls programme which, with spending of €953 million, accounts for over 50% of the Vote gross expenditure. I issued a clear audit opinion in respect of the account.

However, I drew attention to the Accounting Officer's disclosure of certain instances of non-compliance with procurement rules in respect of contracts that operated during 2022. I also drew attention to the Accounting Officer's disclosure in the statement on internal financial control to two instances of duplicate payments that arose in 2022 due to error. The overpayments had a combined value of €7.2 million. The Accounting Officer stated the overpayments have been recovered and that controls have been improved to prevent a reoccurrence.

A number of the schemes provided for in Vote 30 are co-funded by the EU. That EU funding is brought to account in the Vote as appropriations-in-aid. Separately, the Department is also the accredited paying agency in Ireland for direct EU payment schemes that are not co-funded by Ireland. Such EU payments, including the single farm payment to farmers, are accounted for separately from the Vote and are not audited by my office. A summary of the EU-related transactions is disclosed in note 6.1 of the appropriation account. In total, EU payments into the Vote and EU direct payments amounted to just over €1.5 billion for 2022.

Subhead C7 of the appropriation account provides for payments into the horse and greyhound fund. Issues from the fund are made to Horse Racing Ireland and Rásaíocht Con Éireann, formerly Bord na gCon. During 2022, €70.4 million was issued to Horse Racing Ireland and €17.6 million to Rásaíocht Con Éireann. In 2022, subhead C7 was also utilised to make a one-off payment of €6.2 million to the Irish National Stud to increase its share capital.

The report before the committee today examines the Department's management of its valuable and diverse property portfolio, including how it reports on those assets in its appropriation account. At the end of 2022, the Department had 85 buildings and plots of land in its Vote asset portfolio. The Vote asset portfolio is set to grow substantially in the future with the planned incorporation of the six fishery harbour centres and their properties into the Department's appropriation account. The examination found the Department did not have a centralised estate management system in place and the Department's risk register did not recognise any risks related to its property portfolio, such as the risk of encroachment. Over two thirds of the plots of land held by the Department were inherited from the former Land Commission more than 20 years ago. Much of that property comprises bogland that is subject to turbary rights. The Department did not have a register of turbary rights holders, meaning it does not know who has right of access to these lands to cut turf. The Department therefore did not have full control over these assets.

The Department has not determined a valuation basis for its properties and does not recognise a value for them in its statement of financial position. A comparison of the Department's asset register with that of the OPW found five properties recorded on both registers. Separately, in the past five years, the Department discovered 24 plots of land and buildings that should have been recorded on its asset register. These are often identified following receipt of an external query, such as in estate cases or boundary queries.

Around 7% of the Department's landholding comprises forest plots which in most cases form part of larger forest sites that are controlled and managed by Coillte. Although it was agreed in principle in the 1990s that these would transfer to Coillte, a mechanism was not devised for the transfer until 2015. At the end of 2022, there remained a total of 33 forest plots yet to be transferred.

The report recommends the Department put a centralised estate management system in place and that its annual risk assessment exercise include consideration of the particular risks attached to the management of its estate portfolio. It also recommends the Department determine a valuation basis for the properties it holds in order that they are reported in its statement of financial position and that it completes the legal transfer of the remaining forest plots to Coillte.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I thank the Chair for giving me the opportunity to address the committee. As Accounting Officer, I am pleased to assist the committee in its examination of the Department's appropriation account for 2022. My colleagues and I look forward to discussing the expenditure and activities of the Department in respect of 2022 and answering members' questions.

The year 2022 was a challenging one for the Department and, by extension, the sector for many reasons, not least the ongoing Brexit-related impacts, the residual impacts of Covid-19, and the adverse impact on the agricultural sector of the illegal Russian invasion of Ukraine. Despite these and other challenges, the value of agrifood exports in 2022 increased to €18.78 billion, up 21% from the previous year's figure of €15.58 billion. Farm incomes were up overall, although there were significant differences between the sectors.

The Department played a key role in supporting farmers, fishers, food producers, processors and the food distribution chain by continuing to deliver services and support the production of safe and nutritious food for Irish and international markets. In 2022 alone, such supports included the payment of €1.196 billion of EU funds to more than 121,000 Irish farmers, the management of over 158,000 tonnes of fish quotas, the issuing of more than 4,700 forestry licences, the provision of funding of €4.2 billion to Irish fruit and vegetable growers, and the award of record funding of over €5.8 million to animal welfare charities. This brief snapshot highlights the diverse range of activities the Department manages in any given year and 2022 was no exception.

The Department's gross Estimate for 2022 was €2.014 billion, which included a carryover of capital savings of €29.9 million from 2021. The gross outturn was €1.893 billion, representing an increase of approximately €200 million over 2021. The voted expenditure, when combined with the €1.196 billion in EU funded schemes referred to, brings total Department expenditure to just over €3 billion.

These so-called pillar 1 EU schemes are not accounted for in the national appropriation accounts or voted through the Oireachtas. They are subject to a separate EU accountability system.

In 2022, the Department availed of a Supplementary Estimate, which allowed it to fund a fodder support scheme and a tillage incentive scheme, both of which were introduced as a result of the war in Ukraine. The Department also receives appropriations-in-aid, which were significant in the overall 2022 financial outcome. These principally comprised EU receipts in respect of rural development, seafood development and animal disease programmes. In 2022, these receipts amounted to €409 million.

The Department’s Vote is divided into four programmes, each representing a key policy priority. Programme A relates to food safety, animal health and welfare and plant health programmes. Programme expenditure under this heading, excluding staff and administration costs, amounted to €137 million in 2022. This expenditure supports vital services that promote and safeguard public, animal and plant health and animal welfare for the benefit of producers, consumers and wider society. It underpins our agrifood sector and includes expenditure on disease eradication programmes such as TB, testing for residues in food products, on farm controls and plant protection. Attributed staff salaries constituted 40% of the total expenditure on this programme, which accounts for more than half of the Department’s 2022 payroll. Programme B expenditure provides income and targeted supports to more than 121,000 Irish farmers and others in the agrifood sector. It covers our farm support schemes other than the basic payment scheme, which I already mentioned. That is entirely EU funded. These schemes are designed to encourage sustainable agricultural practices. Most, apart from the forestry programme and Ukraine-related schemes, received cofunding from the EU under the rural development programme. The final allocation for farm support schemes following the Supplementary Estimate and excluding pay and administration came to €928 million. The eventual outturn for this programme was €860 million, €36 million more than the previous year.

Alongside the schemes provided for in Ireland’s CAP, 2022 saw the introduction of both the fodder support scheme and tillage incentive scheme in response to challenges caused by Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine. Exchequer funding of €84 million was allocated for fodder support schemes to incentivise farmers to grow sufficient fodder. The scheme’s objective was to ensure that Ireland did not have any animal welfare issues over winter 2022 or spring 2023. A total of €83 million was paid in 2022 to approximately 70,000 farmers. Programme C expenditure was designed to provide the optimal policy framework for the sustainable development of the agrifood sector. It includes expenditure on research and development, which supports Irish research, innovation and knowledge development and transfer in the agrifood, forest and bioeconomy sectors, and contributes to their sustainability and competitiveness. In 2022, the Department continued to use funding under its competitive research programmes to enable Irish researchers to participate in collaborative international partnerships. The Supplementary Estimate also allowed the Department to use savings which emerged during the year to respond to a specific request from the World Food Programme for early payment of our 2023 commitment under the strategic partnership agreement 2022-2024. This resulted in a payment of €25 million to the World Food Programme in 2022. A capital investment of €6 million was made in the Irish National Stud. This one-off payment was made to support the core business activities of the stud and the implementation of its strategic plan. Overall, the programme C outturn of €431 million was €12 million less than the voted allocation after the Supplementary Estimate. Programme D expenditure supports the delivery of a sustainable, competitive and innovative seafood sector driven by a skilled workforce and delivering value-added products in line with consumer demand. In 2021, the seafood sector task force examined the negative impacts of the EU-UK Trade and Co-operation Agreement on Ireland's fishing fleet and related coastal communities. It recommended a series of mitigation measures that could be taken to provide supports for development and restructuring in order to ensure a profitable and sustainable fishing fleet and to identify opportunities for jobs and economic activity in coastal communities dependent on fishing. All of these recommendations were proposed for funding under the Brexit Adjustment Reserve, with capital schemes for seafood processing and aquaculture proposed for additional funding under the European Maritime, Fisheries and Aquaculture Fund after the expiry of BAR. Expenditure under the programme part of this heading in 2022 amounted to €160 million. In 2022, schemes providing direct supports to industry were implemented by BIM. In addition, an inshore marketing scheme was implemented by Bord Bia at a total cost of €500,000 in 2022. The Brexit adjustment local authority marine infrastructure, BALAMI, scheme, assisted the marine economy in coastal communities. These projects were delivered by local authorities which own and maintain the relevant marine infrastructure. By the time the Brexit Adjustment Reserve eligibility period finished at the end of 2023, BALAMI scheme expenditure had totalled €38 million. Programme D also includes spending under the seafood development programme and grants to the Marine Institute, Bord Iascaigh Mhara and the Sea Fisheries Protection Authority.

The agrifood sector makes a significant contribution to Irish employment, employing approximately 165,000 people, mostly in rural and coastal areas. Staff in the Department deliver a wide range of services to stakeholders in the sector. I pay tribute to them for their continued commitment and professionalism and the contribution they have made to supporting the agrifood sector. I thank the Chairman and the members of the committee for their attention and welcome any follow-up questions.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Gleeson. Before we go to questions, I wish to clarify something from last week's meeting. At last week's hearing, Mr. Sheahan, deputy chief veterinary officer in the Department, was here. Questions were asked by Deputy Catherine Murphy and I regarding potential historical incidents at the Straffan plant that appeared in the "Prime Time" investigation programme. I said, "In view of the fact that there were historical incidents that may have had a bearing on some of this, was the Department not on high alert? What was the Department doing and what measures was it putting in place." I knew at that stage it would be difficult to get an answer. Mr. Sheahan said, "I will try to answer as briefly as I can. If you were to ask me even three weeks ago what were standards like within the slaughter plant in Straffan I would say that standards were very good within this slaughter plant in Straffan". This week, in answer to a parliamentary question asked by Deputy Cronin, a paragraph read:

In advance of any events highlighted in the recent television programme, investigations led by my Department involving individuals connected to the business mentioned and another Garda led investigation into other individuals have both progressed such that prosecution cases will shortly be heard before the courts. It would not be appropriate to comment any further on these matters at this time.

Of course it would not be, and I would not expect the Minister to. The impression given, unless I missed something last week - I quoted directly what Mr. Sheahan said at the meeting - was that the Department was not aware of any serious matters like this. Will Mr. Gleeson clarify if the court case is about animal welfare at that plant? I know he will be careful in what he says.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

It is about two things - animal welfare and traceability.

An Cathaoirleach

Two issues highlighted. How did we get an answer like that from assistant chief veterinary officer? Will Mr. Blake, as the chief veterinary officer, or Mr. Callanan, as the chief inspector, comment?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I am happy to deal with it. If Mr. Blake feels he needs to supplement what I say, I am happy for him to do that. We were all horrified by what we saw on that programme. Anybody who saw that-----

An Cathaoirleach

We take that as a given.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

It is important to understand what was seen on the programme. We saw events - I have to be careful - on a farm adjacent to the slaughter premises. We saw in a small portion of the footage what was happening in the slaughterhouse. In the context of what was happening in the slaughterhouse, we staff the slaughterhouse on the day of slaughter - one day a week. We check for traceability and the welfare of the animals as they come in. We check hygiene and all of the conditions that apply to any slaughter plant. I am certain that what Mr. Sheahan meant was that in the context of what was going on in the slaughter plant under our supervision, we were satisfied that things seemed reasonably okay in the context of all of those parameters.

An Cathaoirleach

To use the word "reasonable" and put it back to Mr. Gleeson, would it not have been reasonable and would there not have been an expectation that he could have said - I want to be careful in what I say at the committee - that there is an ongoing Garda-led investigation into the individuals and a court prosecution due to be heard?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I am not certain Mr. Sheahan knew that. The Cathaoirleach is asking me to comment on something somebody else said. It is difficult

An Cathaoirleach

The horse racing sector was before the committee. Mr. Sheahan came in as a representative of the Department. Is Mr. Gleeson seriously trying to tell me that in the briefing before he came in here, and as the deputy chief veterinary officer, he would not have been aware that there was an ongoing court case regarding this plant?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I am not trying to say that.

An Cathaoirleach

What is Mr. Gleeson trying to say?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I am trying to say I am not sure. The Cathaoirleach is asking me to comment on something someone else said. Insofar as the supervision of the slaughter plant was concerned, things seemed to be okay. There was an ongoing prosecution which had not concluded, so I do not know how we could have drawn conclusions about the slaughter plant.

An Cathaoirleach

No one wants Mr. Gleeson to draw conclusions from an ongoing court case. I, the committee and Deputy Catherine Murphy, are trying to get an answer to these questions. There was an ongoing investigation. We asked specifically about historical cases regarding the individuals involved and the plan and this was not mentioned. Here it is now in a reply to a parliamentary question answered since then. It sets out clearly that there is a Garda-led investigation into the individuals and a case being prosecuted. Both have been progressed and the cases will shortly be heard before the courts.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

That should have been mentioned. I assure the Deputy that there is no effort by the Department not to be clear about these things. We are happy to give a full report to the committee on everything that has happened, subject to the avoidance of prejudicing the prosecution.

An Cathaoirleach

That fact was highly relevant to answers we tried to get to questions here last Thursday morning. We will leave it at that for now.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I will stay with that issue. Did the person who was operating that abattoir have prior convictions?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Yes. Again, I just really want to be careful. It is not a defensive point, but I want to be absolutely-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

We are not referring to a live court case.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I understand that. There was a conviction in 2012.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Was the conviction for animal cruelty?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

It was for animal cruelty, not at that plant, but somewhere else. I am simply-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

The building did not inflict the cruelty.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

No. I am just making the point. That was in 2012. There were prosecutions since then, both of which were dismissed. There is the ongoing prosecution the Cathaoirleach referred to and there is now a new investigation.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

A prior conviction was not enough for alarm bells to ring with the deputy veterinary officer. Would that not invite an additional level of oversight when it had already been established?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

There is nothing about this that does not require us to do a root-and-branch review of everything we do.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

The Department has subsequently taken the horses and moved them to different land. Is that correct?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

No, they have been moved.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

They have been moved and the land is under the ownership of the person who owns the abattoir.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

We know where they are. They have been moved. That premises was subject to a control notice, and all that is part of the ongoing investigation.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Are the lands where the horses are now owned by the person who operated the abattoir?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I believe so, but I do not know who owns the land.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Considering the level of cruelty that was inflicted on those animals, the idea that they are still in the care of the person involved does not sit well with me.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I absolutely accept what the Deputy is saying, but we are now in a position where we are engaged in an investigation. We have to take this step by step and do everything correctly. These things are not simple. I say that in the context of the movement of those animals and what is happening now, step by step. There might be demands for us to do things now that might prejudice our overall objective.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Going back to the statement of the deputy chief veterinary officer last week, Mr. Gleeson said he would be happy to furnish the committee with a report on a deep dive into all this. Internal Department correspondence will come under the spotlight. It will be gone through with a fine-tooth comb. Were any issues raised by members of the Department before?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

There are probably three distinct issues. The first is the welfare issue. Five welfare complaints were made about the lands and curtilage of the slaughter plant. We investigated those complaints. A veterinary officer examined the horses.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Mr. Gleeson said there were five complaints. Were they raised within the Department or made externally?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

They were from members of the public. We went out and checked. I have seen the welfare reports from those complaints and nothing was found that was of a nature that would require the seizure of the horses at those times.

Second, I have reflected on the process for approving the plant because there are obvious legitimate questions about the history of the owners of the plant. I have examined the file and it seems that, at the time of the application, the focus of the examination was on the suitability of the premises from a slaughter point of view, to include hygiene issues, physical infrastructure and the various quality control systems required.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

We have been through that to an extent so I want to-----

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Yes, the point I am coming to is that it was not evident to me from looking at the file that the suitability of the person, an individual, was part of the formal process of approval.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I do not intend to labour this point because there are many other matters I want to get to. However, the deputy chief veterinary officer made that statement before the Committee of Public Accounts relatively recently, but Mr. Gleeson stated that five separate complaints had been made by members of the public, I presume before that. Is Mr. Gleeson saying unequivocally that no issues were raised internally in the Department?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I am not aware of any issues being raised internally in the Department. I have looked at the approval file and the welfare notices prepared on the basis of those complaints. I start from the point that there is nothing about this that does not require review. We have asked Professor Patrick Wall to do a root-and-branch review of the system of identification and traceability and the system for the approval of plants.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I want to explore the issue of traceability a little further. There has been huge fallout from this "RTÉ Investigates" programme. Europol joined a European meeting, co-ordinating international elements of an investigation. Dutch authorities issued a serious warning through the European Commission's rapid alert system for food and feed. There have been huge implications across Europe and huge reputational damage to the Irish food system and what we have worked so hard to achieve in respect of standards and traceability. Does Mr. Gleeson accept the "RTÉ Investigates" figure of 20,000 horses disappearing from the system each year?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I do not know whether that is correct. I neither accept nor reject it. I can say that the traceability system in Ireland was compliant with EU rules and there are clearly trans-European issues in the context of the traceability system. Some of the events shown in the programme took place in other member states. It is clear that, despite having a system that complies with EU rules, if people are determined to circumvent it, they can. It therefore needs that root-and-branch review. I absolutely accept that.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Mr. Gleeson has to give me some sort of insight on that number. An allegation was made in the programme that 20,000 horses go missing each year. As Secretary General of the Department of agriculture, Mr. Gleeson has to be able to advise the committee whether that is in the ball park, whether he utterly refutes it, thinks it is close, nearby or ridiculous.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I cannot do that today. I could say something now, but it would be speculative and it would not be right for me to do that. However, I can try to come back to the committee on it.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

That is not good enough. I have to be honest. I want to move on to two other issues that have only arisen in the past week. News reached us last Friday that the chief financial officer at the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board, IHRB, Donal O'Shea, has resigned. He has been on voluntary leave for the past year, as Mr. Gleeson will be aware. He will remember that Darragh O'Loughlin had to come before the Committee of Public Accounts and unleash that bombshell on us last year. Was the Department apprised of the resignation beforehand?

How did it come to find out about the resignation?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

The first I knew was when I saw it in a newspaper. That was the first I knew.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Mr. Gleeson found out through the press like the rest of us.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Yes, that was the first I knew.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Would Mr. Gleeson have expected the CEO to have spoken to him? Would he have expected Mr. Darragh O'Loughlin to have picked up the phone to him or to the Minister to say he had received a resignation letter?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

He may have told HRI. It may have been out in the press as soon as it happened. I do not know. As far as I can see, Mr. O'Loughlin has been absolutely transparent about this from the beginning. He came before the committee last year.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

He did.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

He found out about events immediately before that meeting and disclosed them.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I remember.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I feel Mr. O'Loughlin has been pretty transparent about the whole episode.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

When you get a letter of resignation, you have two choices: to accept it or to not accept it. If the Department was not apprised of the letter of resignation, the Minister was never involved in any discussion as to whether the resignation would be accepted when it was tendered.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

The Minister does not appoint employees to the IHRB. He does not appoint board members. Those are matters for the board and the chief executive of the IHRB. I am not sure what refusing to accept a resignation means in practice.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

The CFO of the IHRB is now unlikely to appear before this committee to account for the actions that were taken around that transfer of moneys from the injured jockeys fund. It is highly unlikely that we will ever get that person before the committee to account for the use of public moneys. That is why I think it should have been part of the discussion. Even if it was decided that we were in such a position that we had to accept the resignation when it arrived, it should certainly have been discussed because that accountability to the public purse is now, in all likelihood, lost. Mr. O'Shea was on voluntary leave over the past year. Does Mr. Gleeson know if he was on paid voluntary leave?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I understand that Mr. O'Loughlin said he was.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Has Mr. Gleeson any details on the terms around the resignation? Was it a straight resignation or was there a compensatory-----

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I do not have that detail. A resignation implies to me that somebody has resigned. I imagine the conditions of resignation are determined in the contract of employment, which is with the IHRB.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

There are many other places I wish to go. I wanted to talk about the external review of the Horse and Greyhound Fund. I may return to that issue.

In his opening statement, Mr. Gleeson chose not to address chapter 10 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's accounts of the public services. That was one of the matters listed for discussion. Why did he make the decision not to address that chapter in his opening statement?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I assumed we would discuss it in the context of the meeting. I addressed the appropriation account. My natural assumption was that the Comptroller and Auditor General would make his usual introduction and deal with those issues, and we would discuss them in the meeting.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Okay.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I had five minutes for an opening statement.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I understand, but the matter was listed for discussion. When I read this chapter, my jaw dropped. The Department lost a forest.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

If the Deputy has questions, I am happy to address them.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

The question is around oversight and how the registry is done. We lost a forest but we gained a Georgian house. We then found out someone was living in the Georgian house. We did not gain a cottage. We decided we had found a Georgian house on Backweston Farm. We did not know the house was there and we found out that the farm foreman resides on the farm but no tenancy agreement is in place.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Yes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

We found out that Stacumny Cottage is let to a member staff for €104 per year, which is a fairly good rental cost in this market. This investigation was only carried out on 38% of the lands. Has the Department subsequently reviewed the other 62% of the property?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

There are three categories of land here. There is land that the Department uses. There is forestry land that was transferred to Coillte in 1989 but elements of the transfer involved difficult issues of ownership and legal issues. That was not transferred. The third category is this Land Commission legacy land. Our policy was to value lands if they were being disposed of. There were quite a lot of small plots of bog with turbary rights and other complexities. We have now moved to value the lands we have. We have started with Backweston, which is being valued this week. We are working with Tailte Éireann to value the farm in Raphoe. We are also working with Táilte Éireann to come up with a basis for the valuation of those other lands, which will involve some kind of a desktop review. We are working to transfer the remaining forestry lands to Coillte, but some of that is complicated stuff. Our objective is to transfer those boglands to the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS. Again, there are complicated issues. These are essentially legacy plots that we have had for decades and were not using. These are difficult enough issues to resolve.

We have resolved the duplication of registration with the Office of Public Works, OPW. In respect of the houses on those farms, two of the farms are involved in legacy issues. Two of those houses were resided in by farm managers. We run farms and have farm managers who live in the houses. Their contracts of employment require them to live on the farm.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Were the details of the tenancies covered within the contracts of employment?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I believe they were but I will come back to the Deputy on that point. My understanding is that these were conditions of their employment.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I will put a question to Ms Ivory. As an official of the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery, and Reform, is she happy to allow a nil valuation to sit on the balance sheet? Is she happy that those nil values are recorded?

Ms Kate Ivory

Adherence to financial procedures is a matter for the Department, as outlined in the public financial procedures.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I understand it is a matter for the Department. I am asking for the view of the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery, and Reform on the current situation.

Ms Kate Ivory

I understand that the Accounting Officer has agreed with the recommendations of the report and has set has set out to address them by working internally and engaging with government accounting within our Department to address that issue. In future, this will be addressed so we are happy with the actions taken following the recommendation.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I have many more questions on many more subjects but my time has elapsed.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

May I make a quick point? We accept all of the findings of the Comptroller and Auditor General and are implementing them. I wanted to make that point clearly.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I wish everyone a good morning. It is infuriating when you have a witness in front of you and discover you have not received a fair response. In this case, it is fortunate that the witnesses are here a couple of weeks after the representatives of Horse Racing Ireland and the IHRB were before the committee. That is the context. A Department official was here. It is infuriating to have to back over the same questions.

Mr. Gleeson talked about the 2012 prosecution and said that two other prosecutions were dismissed. That, however, is not the full story. Those prosecutions were dismissed because of the absence of key witnesses. Some key witnesses were not notified of the court date and were not there to give evidence. That was the cause of the dismissal. That must have been infuriating for the people who had done the work to get to the point where a prosecution was taken. I do not know if the gaps have been closed to ensure that will not happen again in future prosecutions. I know the kind of evidence that must have been assembled and the Department would have been well aware of the nature of those complaints. Even if they were not successful prosecutions, the Department would have had the information. Even with that knowledge, the licence was still renewed. Who is involved in the awarding of the licence? Is there any animal welfare input into the awarding of licences? Surely it is not just about the premises.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

It should have raised alarm bells. I have already said a number of times that this requires a root-and-branch review of our processes.

I want to be as clear as I can about this because I do not want to leave here with anybody misled about anything. There was a prosecution in 2011. The charges were dismissed on the basis that the Deputy said, which is that our witness was advised she was not needed. The 2012 prosecution was successful. There was a prosecution in 2016. There was a departmental witness and the case was dismissed, notwithstanding the fact that the witnesses turned up. There is a case preceding the "Prime Time" one, which the Chairman referred to. As I looked at the file, it seemed it was very much focused on the physical infrastructure and the suitability of the premises. To be fair to the people involved in this, I am not sure they had guidance on how to interpret the provisions relating to fit and proper person. I accept that the Department should have provided that guidance.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Surely, fit and proper person in the case of animal welfare is key. It does not matter if the walls of this slaughterhouse were paved with gold; it is how the process is conducted. Animal welfare has to be a central piece to that. Mr. Gleeson talked about vets who have an interest in animal welfare. How would that not be interpreted as a requirement?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

From the Department’s point of view, there should have been some guidance on this point. It should have been part of the process. If it is part of the process, there are complexities. One has to consider how to manage a corporate applicant. If an employee or the MD has a conviction or prosecution against them, the answers might be different. How does one manage a prosecution that was dismissed? Is that something that could be taken into account? How does one manage a successful conviction that was a number of years ago? Is there some time limit? I am not providing answers to these questions. I am just saying that we should have had guidelines in place for these people, those things should have been considered and we should have had some legal advice for people to determine how they manage these things. We are doing those things now.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

After the event.

Is there an age requirement for an animal welfare officer?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

No.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

If the Department were to go to court with someone who was under 18 who was the animal welfare officer, would the court question their age and whether they had the legal standing because of their age?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I do not know the answer to that question. All I can say is that there was no legal impediment to somebody under 18 being an animal welfare officer. I have no idea what the age of the individual in this case was.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Could it have been the case that they were under 18?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I do not know. Perhaps. Legally, it could have.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

This is supposed to be a position of high responsibility. It is supposed to be somebody who is trained, accredited and all of that. What does the accreditation process require?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

It requires people to do a training course. I am not sure of the details. Perhaps Mr. Blake knows a little bit more about that.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Can Mr. Gleeson provide us with the detail on that?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Yes, I am happy to do that.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Regarding the licence for Shannonside, was there an amendment to the area that was covered from one licence to the next? Did it, for example, include the lairage?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

It is an approval. The operators who had that premises before Shannonside had a larger area that included the piece that was shown on “Prime Time”. However, the Shannonside application did not include that.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I put questions on the last occasion regarding horse passports. I do not have the transcript with me but the impression I got from the official from the Department replying to me was that they could not understand how this could have happened and there were no concerns, yet we know there were issues with passports going back to 2013 and there was another facility where, my understanding is, passports were bought on Amazon, and the Department would have been aware of that. Therefore, the Department was aware there were issues with passports. It was not just one set of questions that I felt I did not get a full and proper reply to. It related to other issues, including the identification of horses. We now know that this particular facility or particular individual had passports with no corresponding horses. Can Mr. Gleeson address that?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

We are starting to stray into areas now that might be pertinent to an investigation.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I do not want to go into the areas that are under investigation.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I understand that.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Was the departmental officials aware there were problems when they were in front of us? How could they not be?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

There are issues with identification of all animals and all species from time to time, which are generally resolved. There was a case ongoing and identification was part of it. There was an investigation that had not reached its final conclusion. The Department was aware that there may have been problems with identification. We had no reason to believe that the animals, I think, coming through that plant were not properly identified, and we were checking the identification insofar as it was there.

This is not in any way to imply that the system does not have to be examined, but this was a system that was consistent with European Union law. The fact is we have a much better identification system for bovine, and that was developed over many years. Through many stresses in the mid- and early-1990s, we developed a system. That system is not necessarily appropriate for horses because it is a different business but we are examining this now in conjunction with our European partners.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The horse meat scandal should have made sure it was robust. Given that some horses have been raced and are not suitable for the food chain, there is a double need for this to make sure there is full traceability. There are big industries to be protected, including the racing and food industries. We know that is high risk.

I ask about the five complaints. I talked to some of the people who made complaints. One individual I talked to made multiple complaints. Are we talking about five individuals making complaints or five cases in total?

Deputy Catherine Murphy took the Chair.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

My understanding is it is five cases and five complaints. I looked at the reports from those. A vet went out and examined the animals on those occasions. For example, there might be a lame animal, which is not necessarily indicative of neglect, but something might have to be done. Veterinary attention might have to be paid to them. However, the vet was satisfied there was nothing of a nature that would require a prosecution or the seizure of animals on those occasions.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

This is in my constituency, so I talk to people who live nearby. I am hearing something very different from a professional had gone in and looked.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I can only tell the Leas-Cathaoirleach what I am aware of.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I wish to skip to something else and I will come back to that, because I have a number of questions. The Comptroller and Auditor General’s opening statement referred to the centralised management system. Is that in place now?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Yes.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Since the 2022 accounts, were any further pieces of land or buildings identified?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Not that I am aware of.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I also want to ask about the Department's staff complement. Is it fully staffed or are there vacancies, particularly for vets?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

We have just under 4,100 staff. The staffing complement has increased by 20% since I took the job in 2018. We are fully staffed although we could always do with more.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I am not talking about whether one could always do with more staff. Are there vacancies? Does the Department have the number for which it is funded?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Yes. We have about 4,100 and I think the staffing limit figure in the Book of Estimates for 2024 is 4,119. Therefore, we are just about at our limit.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

What about the special units?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

The investigations division?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Yes.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

We have 11 staff there. Seven of those are investigators. Apart from maybe ten years ago, that is as strong a complement as it has had for quite a number of years.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I presume the fallout from the "RTÉ Investigates" programme would have required substantial additional work. Is there anything additional being done? Are there additional staff being brought into the investigations division?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

No. We have expert investigators there who are examining this.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I am going to leave my questioning there and come back later with some further questions.

Deputy Brian Stanley resumed the Chair.

An Cathaoirleach

I am sorry as I had to pop out for a moment. We had some newly elected MPs from the North down.

Let me move on with the questioning. My first question is on agency staff. For the year in question, there is a cost of €99.5 million, and for 2021 the figure is €91.8 million. This has arisen with other bodies, and obviously there can be explanations, but why is this such a huge spend on agency staff in the Department? Is it on veterinary services, mainly?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I apologise but I am not quite sure what the Cathaoirleach means. Is there something in the appropriation account that he is drawing my attention to?

An Cathaoirleach

In relation to the accounts-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It may relate to pay in the agencies that are under the aegis of the Department.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

We have 13 State agencies.

An Cathaoirleach

They include Bord Iascaigh Mhara and Teagasc.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Bord Bia, Bord Iascaigh Mhara, the Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority and so on. We have 13 of those.

An Cathaoirleach

Does the Department employ many staff from agencies in-house?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

From agencies, no. In our IT area, for example, we have a substantial number of contractors who develop our systems under the supervision of our own staff. That represents a kind of permanent cost. I am not sure what the figure is now, but it is significant. In the context of forestry licensing, for example, we would have run tenders to employ those involved in ecology services to help us with licensing.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay.

I want to move on to the situation with the horse industry, horse slaughtering, etc. It is clear from the reply to the parliamentary question and what Mr. Gleeson said this morning that the Department was aware of an ongoing Garda investigation and a prosecution being pursued through the courts, but we were not made aware that the Department was aware of that. We have established that. Has the Department interviewed any staff involved in this, either in the past or the present?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

These events took place quite a long time ago and I think all the people who made the decisions are retired. It was ten years ago.

An Cathaoirleach

To what is Mr. Gleeson referring?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

The approval of the plant and the prosecutions prior to that and that were concurrent with the approval. I am not sure if Mr. Blake has anything to add.

Mr. Martin Blake

Just to clarify, the previous three cases were Garda-led investigations, for which we are asked to provide witnesses. The most recent one, which the Secretary General talked about, is Department led. In parallel, there is another Garda-led investigation related to another horse traceability issue. It is not related to the plant in question. There are two current cases.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, but in relation to the plant in question we have established there is a Garda investigation and court proceedings. We want to be careful about what is said here. Has there been a discussion with any Department staff involved with the plant in the past ten years who are not retired?

Mr. Martin Blake

Most definitely. I could not say that everybody has been spoken to but, most definitely, many of the people who had some engagement would have been spoken to.

An Cathaoirleach

The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine had staff on-site at the plant. It was said there was cruelty at the farm attached, but it was actually in the same complex. The programme showed it was in the same yard. The building is adjacent to the slaughterhouse; that is the reality. The farm is connected and not down the road somewhere. We have established that much. There were wounds on the horses. These could be small wounds where chips were changed. There was evidence of the use of spray paint to cover these. What kind of protocols and processes are there for departmental staff when visiting sites like the one in question? I know there is only one horse plant but I am referring to abattoirs in general.

Mr. Martin Blake

Generally, where abattoirs operate, they operate for more than one day per week. The facility in question was operating only one day per week. We have 49 approved slaughter facilities across the country dealing with all species. Generally, a veterinary inspector and technical staff are assigned to those. They carry a range of duties, from ante-mortem and post-mortem inspections to hygiene and animal welfare checks across the day on the days they are present when slaughter is happening.

An Cathaoirleach

What happens when there is a deficiency regarding passport and traceability requirements? Do departmental officials go in straightaway?

Mr. Martin Blake

Horses get an individual assessment. They are presented to the veterinary inspector for ante-mortem inspection, and at that stage traceability checks are undertaken. There is a scan for a microchip and a check to ensure the animal matches its passport. There is a cross-check with the central database to ensure the microchip relates to the horse. There is verification that the horse presented is on the central database and is not excluded from the food chain. There is a clinical assessment of the horse's fitness for slaughter.

An Cathaoirleach

Questions have been asked about what happens to the meat from slaughtered animals. We understand it goes to France. Can Mr. Blake tell me the position on former racehorses, which I understand are not suitable for human consumption? Can he state categorically that no meat from horses slaughtered at the plant and formerly in the horse racing industry was exported to the European market?

Mr. Martin Blake

It is quite clear that ex-racehorses were slaughtered at the plant. There is nothing-----

An Cathaoirleach

I know that, but what happens to the meat?

Mr. Martin Blake

That meat would be inspected, passed for human consumption and go out for human consumption, assuming it was eligible.

An Cathaoirleach

So, old racehorses could have been used.

Mr. Martin Blake

There is no prohibition on the slaughter of racehorses.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay.

Mr. Martin Blake

As long as they are eligible in all other ways, particularly with regard to the actual clarity on medical use.

An Cathaoirleach

The licence for this plant was revoked. I understand the certificate regarding animal welfare has been revoked. Is that correct?

Mr. Martin Blake

The approval of the slaughter plants has been revoked. The certificate of competence assigned to one particular individual has been revoked as well.

An Cathaoirleach

Is that regarding somebody who would have a role in animal welfare?

Mr. Martin Blake

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

That has been revoked, so all is good with that. However, the horses were moved. Were they moved with the Department's approval?

Mr. Martin Blake

Again, going back to what the Secretary General said, I think this is all part and parcel of the investigation and it will be brought before the courts, so I do not really want to comment on the detail of that.

An Cathaoirleach

They have been moved.

Mr. Martin Blake

Animals have been moved, yes, and the premises were under-----

An Cathaoirleach

For legal reasons, Mr. Blake is not able to clarify whether they were moved with Department approval or not.

Mr. Martin Blake

Pardon?

An Cathaoirleach

For legal reasons, Mr. Blake is not able to clarify this morning whether they have been moved with Department approval.

Mr. Martin Blake

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

If the Chair does not mind, I will say that all of the issues, including the revocation of the licence, the approval and revocation of the certificate, might all be the subject of proceedings at some time in the very near future.

An Cathaoirleach

There is just something peculiar about it. I would have thought in a situation like that, the horses would be seized, and that once that came to light, the Department would move straight away. I have seen the Department seizing animals before very quickly.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

No, we did not seize the horses but we did issue a control notice that required them to be-----

An Cathaoirleach

Would that normally be the default position, though? I do not want to be too specific about this but generally when there is a question of serious animal cruelty-----

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I think - and Mr. Blake can correct me - that if there was some immediate threat to the welfare of the horses or some serious illness evident in them, they might be seized. However, I am not sure that was the case in this instance. Is that correct, Mr. Blake?

An Cathaoirleach

What was shown on TV would not lead to concerns that there might be an immediate threat to animal welfare. The Department made a judgment not to seize the animals. That means what was shown on the "RTÉ Investigates" programme was not judged to be of an extent that there was an immediate threat to animal welfare on that particular farm complex.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

The question was whether the welfare of horses remaining on the complex was likely to be compromised after that. That was the question. Again, we are engaged in a step-by-step process here.

An Cathaoirleach

I understand that.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

We could do things now in response to public pressure that might ultimately compromise our ability to reach our objectives.

An Cathaoirleach

I know that. I am just trying to establish a pattern. The horses were not seized by the Department.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

No.

An Cathaoirleach

Would I be correct in saying that where serious animal welfare concerns are raised regarding the treatment of animals, and it is within buildings or on lands, the Department will regularly seize those animals?

Mr. Martin Blake

If I may, I think it happens occasionally. I would not say regularly.

An Cathaoirleach

I have seen it.

Mr. Martin Blake

It does not happen regularly but occasionally.

An Cathaoirleach

Rightly so, by the way.

Mr. Martin Blake

In most welfare cases we investigate, we would not seize the animals.

An Cathaoirleach

What will happen with the horses that were to be slaughtered? Are they being brought to slaughtering plants where there are other animals such as cattle or sheep being slaughtered? Is that likely to happen? I am asking this in a general way because members of the public are genuinely concerned about animals. People are horrified at what they saw. Obviously, these animals are going to be slaughtered so the concern is where they are now and what is going to happen to them. These horses were going to be slaughtered. Is it the case now that some of them will be slaughtered in plants where cattle are also being slaughtered? Is that correct? Yes. Is it correct that the normal veterinary procedures will be in place? It will be a county council vet, not a Department vet, who will be present, or maybe both in this case. Is that correct?

Mr. Martin Blake

To slaughter horses, a premises needs to be approved. Currently, there is no approved equine slaughter premises in the country. It is open for people to apply but currently, there is no approved equine slaughter premises in the country.

An Cathaoirleach

If a plant has to be used. None of them have been slaughtered yet, I take it.

Mr. Martin Blake

There have been no horses slaughtered for human consumption since the beginning of June.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, but something has to be done with these horses now. They were going to be slaughtered. What I am asking does not impinge in any way on the DPP case being taken. Those horses are to be slaughtered. I am aware since last week that there was only one horse slaughtering plant approved in the State. It is no longer approved, so we do not have any now. I am asking what happens to horses that have to be slaughtered. I know this is not easy but I am trying to get an answer, so please do not have me going around the houses for half an hour on this. Obviously, there has to be a plan now. The most likely scenario, I expect, although I am not an expert on this and have only limited knowledge of it, is that an approved plant will be used. I know such plants are run to a high standard. County council vets oversee them. They are paid by the county council and approved by the Department to oversee the animals going into the food chain. They are run to a very high standard, and I acknowledge that. There is high traceability and what has happened since the nineties has been very good. We all acknowledge that but I think we also have to acknowledge it is important that this is protected. What has happened here is anything but good. Will these horses now be slaughtered in a plant where cattle would be slaughtered? That would appear to be the most appropriate and logical thing to do, once there is proper veterinary supervision.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I am going to try to answer this as best I can. I am not trying to send the Chair around the houses. Right now, these horses are the subject of a control notice. They cannot go anywhere. They are subject to a control notice. There is no slaughter plant in the country available for slaughtering horses. The facilities required for slaughtering horses are quite different from the facilities required for slaughtering bovines, so I cannot see that happening. Mr. Blake can correct me if I am wrong.

An Cathaoirleach

What if there is a horse, say, with a broken leg?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

If there is a horse with a broken leg, you can call your vet out to have it humanely put down and bring it to the knackery.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

That is the system. If you have a healthy horse that is not the subject of a restriction notice and is properly identified, it is possible to export those horses. However, I believe there have not been any horses exported for the last six or seven weeks.

An Cathaoirleach

The question members of the public are asking the likes of me is what happens now. That is clear, and Mr. Gleeson has answered it clearly. I understand that.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

When we are finished with this prosecution, then we might have to make a judgment about these particular horses. In the meantime, people can call their vet out - there is a cost associated with that - and have the horse humanely euthanised on the farm.

An Cathaoirleach

Is there a level of supervision from the Department with regard to these animals and where they are being kept now to ensure they are not being mistreated?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

We are aware of where they are and we are keeping an eye on the place.

An Cathaoirleach

Mr. Gleeson says the Department is keeping an eye on it. Can he tell me a bit more about what that means?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

We do not have a presence there every day but-----

An Cathaoirleach

No, I do not expect that.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

-----we are inspecting it.

An Cathaoirleach

There is oversight by the Department and Mr. Gleeson is satisfied. That is the key thing.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Would a vet have seen the horses since?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

That is all I wanted to know. Deputy Devlin is next.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Mr. Gleeson and the other witnesses are all very welcome back to the committee. It is good to engage. I will pick up on that last point. I think Mr. Gleeson said earlier to Deputy Ó Cathasaigh that the Department does not know who owns the lands that the horses are on. Is that correct?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I do not know who owns the land.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

There are inspections being carried out, however.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Yes.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

It kind of puzzles me, given the concern that has been raised about all of this, that the horses we have a concern about could potentially still be under the control and guidance - I was going to say care - of the same individual who either operates, runs or owns the equine slaughterhouse. Is that true?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Yes.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Does that not bother anybody in the Department? It is the same issue. I know Mr. Gleeson said he has read the file. From what I am hearing from the witnesses today, the Department is doing a root-and-branch review, as Mr. Gleeson said earlier, and that is understandable. However, from the committee's perspective, it makes no logical sense whatsoever to have the same individual, who is clearly causing concern - and I use that word reservedly - still in control of the same horses.

Does that not sit well with the Department?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Again, Deputy, I just want to be careful here.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I understand that.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

We are going through a complex set of legal processes-----

An Cathaoirleach

Care must be taken here because some witnesses here will probably wind up having to give evidence.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

It does not matter how we feel. We are going through a step-by-step process. It has to be legally robust and there will be legal proceedings in both directions, I would imagine.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I should clarify that I am actually talking about process in general from the Department's perspective. In the face of any abuse, the individual or creature or whoever is of concern in minding those individuals or items, whatever it might be, I suggest there needs to be a review of that urgently, separate to what we are talking about. That has to be handled better, let us put it that way.

Mr. Gleeson mentioned that previous complaints had been made. I believe he said there were five. Over what period are we talking?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

We are talking about the period since 2018.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Okay. Mr. Gleeson said the inspections carried out on the equine slaughterhouse were on the curtilage, I think he said.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I am not sure if that is the right term but it was a farm adjacent to the slaughterhouse.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Noting it is the only one in the country, how long has that equine slaughterhouse been in operation?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I think the most recent approval is from 2015.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Was there ever more than one equine slaughterhouse in the country in operation at any given time?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

There were two at one point. There was one in Kilkenny.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Why did the Kilkenny abattoir cease?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Because of commercial issues, I think. This is a once-a-day business for this one slaughterhouse, sometimes once a week.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I hear what Mr. Gleeson is saying and I know it is a sensitive issue given the timeframe we are operating to right now, but if there were several slaughterhouses in operation and one slaughterhouse had a previous conviction or a conviction while in operation, does the current contract with the Department allow that same individual set up under a new name or a new entity and engage with a contract with the Department?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

That is a good question. We do not have a contract with this individual-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

A licence or whatever it may be.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

We issue an approval.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Sorry, it is an approval.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Essentially, it seems to me, based on my examination of the matter, that the previous approval focused very much on the suitability of the premises and not on this test of what is a fit and proper person. Various professions have that test and it is not a simple thing. There is judicial precedent and there are professions that do not have that test.

One of the things we are doing in consultation with our lawyers is trying to figure out a protocol that will tell people what test they have to carry out for a person to be a fit and proper person. The kinds of considerations there might be is how do you handle a corporate application if one individual has been convicted? How do you handle a conviction five years ago or ten years ago? Is a conviction a purgatory in perpetuity? I am not sure it could be. How do you handle an ongoing investigation where you have a suspicion but no conviction?

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I presume inspections would flow from that same question as well in terms of additional oversight, etc.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

At the point of approval, I think we have to have a system that says these are the tests that have to be carried out to determine the suitability of an individual but they have to be based on some robust piece of law because it is not simple. In particular, it is not simple when you are dealing with a corporate applicant.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I can appreciate that. Staying with the animal cruelty element of things, I know the Department was involved with the Department of Rural and Community Development in terms of the control of dangerous dogs. It is something I have raised with the Department of agriculture before. I know the stakeholder engagement group has been established, which is wonderful. Speaking of the licence or agreement or whatever that operators might have with the Department, regardless of what type of animal we are talking about, I presume when the Secretary General is talking about a root and branch review of the Department's processes and procedures in dealing with any concern or complaint, this is going to apply across the board. Would that be correct?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

That is not what I intended to say, Deputy. I was talking about the specific incident and I was talking about horse traceability, in which there are evident circumventions and I was talking about the processes for approving horse plants. There is an interdepartmental process under way right now with an interdepartmental committee to look at issues in relation to dogs. Issues relating to the approval of dog breeding premises, for example, do not reside in our Department. They reside in the Department of rural affairs.

It is imperfect, but the fact is we now have an interdepartmental committee that at least is trying to co-ordinate the efforts of the various Departments on that but when I spoke about the root and branch review, we have contracted Professor Paddy Wall, who is a veterinarian, a medical doctor, an expert in the equine sector and a food safety expert, to do a specific review of the arrangements in relation to horses on foot of this incident. We hope that he will come forward with recommendations very quickly.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

What kind of timeline are we talking on that, roughly?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

A couple of months.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

In terms of the dogs issue, or cats or any other animals such as donkeys, you name it, that other shelters are looking after, and there are some specific shelters around the country that deal with specific types of animals for understandable reasons and then there are other mixed homes such as cat and dog homes, etc. I appreciate there is a split between Mr. Gleeson's Department and the Department of community and rural affairs and it is not straightforward. There was, however, an additional €2 million given to dog pounds in April of this year and there is a whole plethora of criteria under which they can apply for that funding. Where does the responsibility lie? Is it with the Department of agriculture or the Department of rural and community affairs if there are concerns about dog pounds or other animal shelters?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

We provide funding for animal welfare charities around the country, including some that deal with dogs, and that number has gone up to €5.8 million this year. We have specific criteria and an application process. Obviously we exercise stewardship over the funding and we expect reports from people to see how they administered that. If there was a welfare issue in a particular place, Mr. Blake might help me out on this.

Mr. Martin Blake

We all revert back to the Animal Health and Welfare Act 2013, for which we are the policy lead. If there is any report in relation to animal welfare and it comes to us, we will investigate it either ourselves directly or through authorised officers that we have in the ISPCA, DSPCA and the IHRB.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

That is some clarity on it. In terms of complaints, would the complaints about any particular pound or operator come directly to the Department?

Mr. Martin Blake

It may or may not. If it is to do with the operation and operational controls, there could be contracts between local authorities for some of these facilities, they may-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

This is where it gets quite complex and this is part of the problem. What I was referring to earlier with Mr. Gleeson was that when he spoke of a root and branch approach, what I do not want to see is the equine sector being root and branch reviewed and certain criteria applied, if he can see what I am getting at here, and then in another section we are back here in a year's time talking about cats or dogs or donkeys; it does not really matter. We have to have the same approach to operators. I am not saying there are concerns out there for certain operators. There is one or two that local authorities are dealing with and Mr. Blake is right that there are certain agreements with local authorities for dogs being rescued or impounded.

What I am talking about is overall animal health and that we have to have a full review to ensure that they are all operating to the same standard and the Department can categorically tell us, here and in the future, that if somebody has a conviction or if there are concerns or complaints received, the Department has the ability, wherewithal and necessary resources to ensure that there are additional inspections. The concern that all the Deputies here this morning have spoken about is that we are receiving complaints and concerns about from our constituents are listened to and acted on by the Department. I did not want to put words in Mr. Gleeson's mouth but I would like reassurance that when we are talking about animal welfare, it is absolutely important for the equine sector but I am talking about the overall position.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

First, we have responsibility for animal welfare, which Mr. Blake described. We take complaints seriously and investigate them. There is a very specific issue relating to equines we are trying to deal with quickly.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I appreciate that.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

It is distinct from this and has to do with the traceability and system of approval for slaughter plants. There may well be issues that need to be resolved between the three Departments concerning cohering our efforts on animal welfare because it is not easy to explain. It is difficult. I do not want that to be confused with the very specific piece of work we need to do on these equines, which is not about welfare because welfare concerns are obvious. It is about the traceability of equines, which has an EU dimension to it, and our own processes for the approval of plants.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

To be clear, nobody is saying that work is not essential and urgent. It is but I would like to hear from Mr. Gleeson that a similar approach will be taken across animal welfare within the Department to ensure we are not back talking about cats, dogs or other animals with a concern similar to that raised in the equine sector.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

The interdepartmental group is a first step towards that so that we are lined up and take a common approach to the issue.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Could Mr. Gleeson send the committee a note with the number of complaints received and concerns from the public about animal welfare in a more general sense? It may be specific to different categories of pounds or shelters. This is something we will return to when Mr. Gleeson returns to the committee.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

We will certainly do that. Sometimes we examine these places and sometimes there are very serious issues. Sometimes there are issues where guidance can help people. Sometimes there are issues where you might have to issue a control notice. The extent and nature of some of these issues are different so there is no common result from all of these inspections because some of them might involve people in difficult circumstances. We do take these issues very seriously. It does not always result in a prosecution. It depends on the circumstances.

An Cathaoirleach

Mr. Gleeson is correct. The person with the animals could be somebody in difficult circumstances such as an elderly person with other issues. I have come across it. We accept that. The Department must operate with the policy it is given and it must operate within the law. One thing that surprised me as we started looking at this two weeks ago was that a person with a conviction three years and one month ago could become an animal welfare officer or run an abattoir. That shocked me. If I had been convicted of serious animal cruelty three years and one month ago, because it was more than three years ago, I can apply for a licence to run a slaughterhouse, have animals in my care or become an animal welfare officer. Mr. Gleeson mentioned the corporate situation because a number of people are involved but that individual person performing the role of an animal welfare officer - and I am talking generally here because I do not want to zoom in on that particular case in Kildare - sounds bananas to be honest.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

The Cathaoirleach is talking common sense but the reality is that somebody who applies for certification as an animal welfare officer is required to make a declaration that he or she has not had a conviction in the previous three years and do the training. That is based on EU law. In the context of our review, which will be fast, that might be something we would look at but I am not sure-----

An Cathaoirleach

Regarding EU law, we have a bit of latitude in this country as to what laws we can make. Unless there was some serious impediment - unless Ursula von der Leyen turns up and says "No, stop", and I would be surprised if she did - that is surely one area about which we are going to have to do something. It is bonkers to think that this could happen. The Department is working under strictures and the law that is given to it. I understand that. There will be a number of lessons from this and that one that jumped out straight away at me. I was really surprised by that.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Lest the word "might"might have misled people, that is one of the areas where we are asking for a quick review so that is something we are going to consider. It is complex enough legal stuff. If someone has a conviction, do you ban him or her in perpetuity? The courts convict people of animal welfare offences and can choose to apply a fine or issue some kind of order disbarring that person from keeping animals again. The courts do not always do the second thing. I am simply saying that these are the kind of legal issues we have to be careful about but that is the sort of thing we are going to look at.

An Cathaoirleach

It is not an area we can go into here regarding case law and so on but I would be surprised if there were no cases. I am rewinding my head in terms of what you would see coming before the courts and cases that stand out where somebody would be prohibited from keeping animals forever. That is not appropriate in every case but someone with a conviction three years and a day or a month ago could be running one of these plants for three years and could also be the animal welfare officer. I know Mr. Gleeson would flag this for Government and the Oireachtas but there is one area we need to flag up and that is animal rights. A recommendation from this committee will do that. Never mind the fact that the animal cruelty is the awful part of it, this has financial implications for the State. We have a very important meat industry that everybody is working very hard to protect. I know it involves horses but when the word goes out, it is across the world's media, including the European media, and we all know the damage that can do. We saw it with the damage done to the beef industry and China. It took a long time to get that industry going again. The Department put a lot of work into it. We have done very well on the farm sector and generally it works very well but the State has had its eye off the horse industry and this should make us sit up. I think the Department should flag this. I do not want to prejudge what the committee will come up with but I would imagine that it and the Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine would have a recommendation on that.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I was before the Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine and mentioned Professor Paddy Wall and the work he is doing. This is one of the issues he will look at. There may be guidance available from other professionals. I am sure the concept of fit and proper person exists with regard to the legal profession or the medical profession so there might be guidance in all of that for us. All I am saying is that it is tricky enough. I agree with what the Cathaoirleach says about the three years but the three years are based on EU law as I understand it. We will be looking at that with a view to tightening up in a way that reflects public opinion and common sense.

An Cathaoirleach

And the protection of animals and our food industry. Those two things need to be to the fore.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Of course.

Sitting suspended at 11.08 a.m. and resumed at 11.20 a.m.

An Cathaoirleach

The next speaker is Deputy Ó Cathasaigh. We will take ten minutes per member.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I will ask a few boiler house questions.

We unfortunately have a trend of non-compliance with procurement rules. It was €3.5 million in 2022 for 44 contracts. In 2021, it was €3.8 million relating to 64 contracts and in 2020, it was €3.5 million relating to 64 contracts. It is around €3.5 million per year. Are many of these non-compliant contracts what we might call repeat visits from the same contractors or are we talking about a completely different set of contracts?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I will go through them. We have approximately €100 million in procurement. We are not complacent about the €3.5 million and are working hard to make it better every year. Approximately €1 million of it involved 11 contracts where the processes were intended to comply, but the price that came in exceeded the threshold for the relevant process. We did engage in a process.

Almost €350,000 involved cases of urgency where we had to dispose of biological waste because of avian influenza, so we had to do those quickly. Perhaps we should put a more permanent arrangement in place for that kind of eventuality. In any event, we did not have a pre-existing contract for it.

There is another category where some contracts were rolled over when they should not have been. We will focus on those now and try to get rid of that practice.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

There were two fairly significant duplicate payments. Have they been fully recovered?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Yes. Two payments were involved. One was from our payroll. We have obligations to make payments to the Revenue Commissioners for the various deductions we make. It is an automated system, but this was down to human error and process. Two separate individuals made a manual payment and an automated payment in respect of the same thing to the Revenue Commissioners. It was noticed more or less immediately and recovered. It was a payment of approximately €6 million.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Will Mr. Gleeson put my mind at rest? There were five instances of fraud and two duplicate payments. Was there any link between them?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

No. The second duplicate payment was to another State agency, Bord Bia, for its quality assurance scheme. We made an advance payment the previous year which was notified on the file, but the payment the following year was made in full without regard to the fact that we had already made an advance payment. Again, it was recovered immediately. It was approximately €1 million. They were the two instances. We have changed our processes to make sure there is more supervision of those things so they cannot happen again.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I am asking an oral question in the Dáil shortly so I am a little under pressure with the clock, both from the Chair and the Dáil.

I will pick up on a point Deputy Devlin made about our need to be able to look at animal welfare in the round and not just concentrate on this abattoir issue, which the latest issue. We had RTÉ before the committee last year with its travails but there is no doubt that it has done some very good public service broadcasting in this area. I refer to "Dairy's Dirty Secret" about the live export issue and its coverage of the greyhounds issue. For us to say our first step is to do a root and branch review makes me wonder what our first steps were in those instances. This is not the first issue to arise under the Department.

The external review of the horse and greyhound fund was announced this week and the terms of reference speak about whether the prize funds represent best value for money. The taxpayer will have a clear opinion on that even before a review is done. I have a clear view on the efficacy of animal welfare standards before I see any external review. I do not need Mazars or anyone else to inform me much on the review of the governance framework between the IHRB and the HRI. Has the examination of the 80:20 split between horses and greyhounds been included in the terms of reference?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

No. We had a long discussion on this last year when I indicated that was a matter of Government policy. It is provided for in law.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I know it is a matter of Government policy and that the Department is constrained. Was it considered-----

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

That could be changed. Government policy can determine the split. We discussed the pros and cons of it last year.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Was consideration given to putting it into the terms of reference for this external review?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

No.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

The external review will be entirely silent on it.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Yes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Okay. I also have a view on that.

What is the cost of the external review?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

We have to put it to tender so we do not know the cost yet.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

We are not far down the line. We have announced an intention to have an external review. Is that right?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

The terms of reference are ready and it will go to tender as soon as we get the final Mazars report, because that is a vital part of it.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Do we have a timeline?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

It will be in the next month or so.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

That is for the tendering process, which will take a certain amount of time. Surely the terms of reference includes a reporting time.

Mr. Gordon Conroy

We are waiting for the Mazars report, as the Secretary General said. The terms of reference are ready. There is now a procurement framework in place for consultancies of this type. We will engage with the companies or individuals on that framework to assess their willingness. We will go to the first person on the framework, outline the terms of reference and agree a cost in line with framework agreement and a timeframe.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

We are hearing on this issue that the Department will do a root and branch review, that there is urgency and all the rest. However, in response to another "RTÉ Investigates" programme from a full year ago, I am told the Department has looked at a terms of reference and is thinking about bringing something to tender. It does not speak of urgency. When we saw the conditions those dogs were kept in and the shocking figures of up to 6,000 greyhounds a year being culled just because they are not fast enough and we cannot find a use for them, it is not good enough that the Department is coming back 12 months later with terms of reference.

I also do not know why we have to use an external reviewer when there is already a remove between governing bodies and the overseeing Department. We have Bord na gCon, the IHRB and the HRI. Why do we need to go externally? I will be honest. It speaks to me of a Sir Humphrey Appleby tactic. We will get an external report, kick it to the long grass, in the meantime we will have a change of government and all will be right in the world.

Turning to biosecurity, will the Department give me an approximate figure for what ash dieback will cost between commercial revenues lost and the cost of remediating? I am sure it is an enormous figure.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

If the Deputy does not mind, I will ask Mr. Savage to respond to that.

Mr. Paul Savage

The overall figure will come to something in the region of €237 million altogether. That can be broken down as follows: €10 million already paid to recipients under the previous reconstitution scheme; site clearance under the new scheme-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I just want the headline figure. Sorry to interrupt.

Mr. Paul Savage

It is €237 million in total.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

What are we spending on biosecurity controls?

Mr. Paul Savage

Is the Deputy asking more generally on biosecurity or a particular biosecurity-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

The biosecurity controls, especially on the importation of plastics.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I do not have that figure in front of me, but I can come back to the committee with it.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

The €237 million is more or less a quarter of a billion euro. I am looking at this from the perspective of fire blight, which is here. We have an issue. It took us too long with ash dieback. We should have been much stricter. I do not know whether we could have prevented it crossing the Irish Sea with weather conditions. That point is moot, but fire blight is a real and present danger. Perhaps it is not a commercial danger in the same way, considering the species it affects, but the wildlife implications and implications on our hedgerows cannot be dismissed or diminished.

Are we adequately controlling the plants that come in and the instances of fire blight that are found in the countryside, in order to try do what we did not manage to do with ash dieback, that is, to prevent the spread of this disease throughout the countryside?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

As a member of the European Union we are part of various trade agreements. We operate the controls-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

We have biosecurity as an island though. We can control the plant and animal species that are coming in.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

In accordance with European Union law we do that. We meet our requirements. We have staff at ports, and I will come back to the Deputy with the costs, to check these matters in accordance with European Union law. Products and plants that come in are certified by the States from which they come. That is the way the system works. We apply those biosecurity rules. However, they are not perfect, as no system can be perfect when dealing with a disease.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Will Mr. Gleeson revert to us with a quantum of funding?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Certainly.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

The old Joe Biden line is, "Show me the budget and I will be able to tell whether you care about it or not."

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

We do care about it.

An Cathaoirleach

In regard to this question on biosecurity, now that we have the sea border in place between England, Scotland and Wales, and Ireland, in the ports of Belfast and Larne there is obviously a risk. We quite rightly have an open Border. I look forward to the day when there will not be a Border at all. However, have there been discussions with the people in control who supervise in the North at those ports? Are they robust enough? We know of people who have farms each side of the Border, with houses that are split by the Border so that the back bedroom is in the North and the kitchen is in the South. There are fields where the farmer steps over the fence and crosses the Border. Obviously there is a huge risk there. Are the sea border checks robust enough? Has the Department looked at this?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

We chatted about this last year as well and what I said is that first of all we have to rely on those in Northern Ireland to do their job. That is their obligation is. If we did not rely on the competent authorities in other member states across the European Union to do their jobs, we would have no Single Market. That is the first issue. The second is that there is Commission supervision of what is going on in the North. The Commission has people inspecting this and making sure they are complying with the rules. The third issue is that we have very close relationships with the people in the North. I met with my counterpart last Wednesday. She was down in my office. We have very close relationships with the people in the North.

We do not have a supervisory role in relation to what is going on.

An Cathaoirleach

I understand that. I asked is whether the Department is in contact with the people who do it?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

We have a very close relationship with them and there is oversight from the Commission, because it is operating a system that is agreed upon under the Trade and Cooperation Agreement between the UK and the European Union.

An Cathaoirleach

We should recall with foot and mouth disease that the fact we operated a sea border worked. Technically, some people might not be happy with it but the real world is the real world, and reality is reality. I want to get that reassurance.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

There is very close contact. I have been around a long time so I was involved in the foot and mouth disease incident, intimately. Do not forget, we had checks on the Border during foot and mouth disease. We had police and customs officers checking food coming across the Border during foot and mouth disease. Notwithstanding the fact that we engage with the North on Border controls, at that time we did checks on the Border. We do not want to go back to that.

An Cathaoirleach

I absolutely agree. There has to be an all-Ireland approach and it is important that is working.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

We have an all-Ireland approach to animal health. We co-operate on research, on TB and various other matters.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Gleeson. Deputy Murphy now has ten minutes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I have been told there have been cases of veterinary inspectors who declined to take up a post because their duties would include Shannonside veterinary clinic. Can Mr. Gleeson confirm that?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I cannot. However, I will defer to Mr. Blake, who might know.

Mr. Martin Blake

I am not aware of that but I am not saying it is not true.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Will Mr. Blake check it out and come back to me?

Mr. Martin Blake

I will.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

How long have the current veterinary inspector or superintendent veterinary inspector been in situ?

Mr. Martin Blake

I cannot say with absolute certainty.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Will Mr. Blake come back to us with that and tell us how long their predecessor were there? I want to see whether there is churn and what that might be. I often get the impression, when there is European oversight, real attention is paid to it. We can pay more attention when there is European oversight. Would the witnesses accept that is the case?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I am not sure that there is not European oversight over the system we have. It is compliant with EU law. That is the reality. It is clear that the system can be circumvented. It is also clear that some of the events shown on the programme took place in other member states. If this is to be tackled effectively, it has to be tackled at European Union level. It is not just an Irish issue.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I accept that. I saw the programme and that comes across clearly. It is not unique to one location but we have responsibility for here. On another aspect, people will always try to get around systems. We understand that. The responsibility is to make sure to close those off. Presumably the Department would have been aware of precoded or blank microchips or encoding machines. Is that something of which the Department is aware and has systems to deal with? Mr. Gleeson might just give us a brief reply on that.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

As far as I am aware, and I will defer to Mr. Blake, we check for duplicate microchips in the plant. There is a check for microchips.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Does Mr. Gleeson mean that is the case not just in that one plant? That is routine, presumably.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

We do not check every place in the country that has horses.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Are there spot checks?

Mr. Martin Blake

Wherever we apply controls we would use the opportunity to check the microchips. Occasionally, we come across second microchips in horses and sometimes that is for legitimate reasons. A number of horses on the database have two microchips because the first might have stopped working and a second one was put in. It would have been juxtapositioned so that the two numbers would be on the database associated with that horse. Microchips are not the be-all-and-end-all. There are difficulties with microchips. That is one of the issues we will be looking at in the context of the review. We have always done it.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

We got a reply from the Department in relation to some of the questions that some of us asked the day on which Horse Racing Ireland, HRI, was before us. It told us the total number of horses slaughtered in 2023 was 1,987, of which 1,434 were registered thoroughbreds. If they are registered thoroughbreds, that does not assume they have raced. How many have raced and were therefore excluded from the food chain?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

My understanding is, racing does not exclude a horse from the food chain. What excludes a horse from the food chain is the potential that it might have received certain medicines during its career. Of course, it is lawful, and Mr. Blake can correct me if I am wrong, it is lawful to slaughter horses, including thoroughbreds and thoroughbreds that have raced, but if they have been administered with certain kinds of medicaments they cannot be slaughtered for consumption.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

They are excluded or should have been excluded from Shannonside. There would not be a mixture.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

They should be excluded from the food chain if certain kinds of medicines were administered to them. There should be a record of those medicines on the passport.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

If they were coming from the training yard, presumably they would have raced and there would be a higher possibility of their having been administered with those medicines.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Imperfect as it might be, the evidence should be on the passport. We are now developing an E-passport system that might have the medicines records on it. We are looking at the possibility of DNA-type identification. Potentially we could require people to register a DNA sample and then we could test the carcass after slaughter, to make sure it is the same horse.

We are also developing a national veterinary prescription system with an IT-based system, and we could link those systems up. These are all possibilities we are looking at and that we would expect Professor Patrick Wall to look at.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I presume e-prescriptions and things like that.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Precisely. There are three things. Whatever we have to do has to be lawful, and it might require us to change the law. It has to be effective. We want to make sure that whatever we do actually works and is not circumventable.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The information we got in that reply gave us numbers but it did not get to the issue that I was looking for. Were horses rejected? I presume that in a yard, for example, as Mr. Gleeson said, they humanely put an animal down if it is injured or whatever, and it goes to a knackery.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

That is a fair question. Were horses rejected? Clearly, if the passport indicates that it has been administered a medicine that it should not have been, that horse should be rejected. If there is a doubt as to the identification, that horse should be rejected. I would imagine horses are rejected occasionally. I do not have the numbers but I am happy to come back to the Deputy.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

If Mr. Gleeson would, please. There were media reports about another case in front of Kilkenny Circuit Court that is presumably still ongoing. I understand it is to do with laundering animals to go into the food chain. Is that nearing a conclusion? Am I right about that?

Mr. Martin Blake

I cannot talk specifically on the detail. The case is still before the courts. I understand it is due back in court again shortly. Off the top of my head, I cannot recall the detail of the case.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I presume that there is one equine abattoir. I will not press it because I understand there is-----

Mr. Martin Blake

I can clarify that it is not related to the current case.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Does the Department have an oversight role at all in respect of veterinary surgeons? Would it or would it ever have had cause to refer people to the Veterinary Council, for example?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

The Veterinary Council is a body under the aegis of the Department. It is not funded by the Department, but that is the way it operates. I do not think we nominate people. We may have a nominee on the board of the Veterinary Council. Have we ever referred anybody to the Veterinary Council? I defer to CVO on that.

Mr. Martin Blake

Indeed we do. If we come across veterinary practitioners who we believe are behaving inappropriately, we have, on occasions, reported them for investigation by the Veterinary Council.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I am aware of one case before the courts in my constituency. I do not think it went to the Veterinary Council. I would have thought a prosecution would have been a trigger for that. Does the Veterinary Council have the ability to investigate or would it require a complaint?

Mr. Martin Blake

I clarify that the Department has prosecuted veterinary practitioners in the past as well in relation to non-compliance with law, for which we have responsibility. The Veterinary Council has its own investigators and can take sanction against veterinary practitioners independent of the Department.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Do the witnesses mind giving us a note on that so we can see the chain of things as well as the numbers in recent years?

When the most recent licence was granted, the court cases that were ultimately dismissed were still live. I cannot get my head around the idea that there were live cases. It was not determined. We know that the people were not told the date of the court case and that is incredible. However, that was still live. The Department could not have presumed the outcome of that. Is it a question that there was only one abattoir? Was there another one at that stage and the Department wanted to avoid live exports, which also have animal welfare issues? Did it accept a lower standard? What was going on there?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

The case where our witness was not called, which the Deputy mentioned, was not the one that was going on at the time of the approval. That was a prior case at the time of the approval.

I acknowledge that it was not evident to me from examining the process on the file that this was a consideration. I did not see any evidence that-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

You would have to describe that as a complete failure.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Perhaps. That is why we are reviewing the process now. All I am saying is that will not be a simple matter. The question about whether you could prevent somebody from running a business on the basis that person is being prosecuted, I am not sure what the answer is. However, these are questions we have to answer in consideration of this matter. At least, there should be a formalised process that assesses the fitness to operate to the standard in the regulation, and we did not have that. I am acknowledging that.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

When you prosecute, you have to go through a system. It will have to be sanctioned. It is not one individual who willy-nilly decides this. There will be a structure and there will be a group. Who is on that group? How senior is that decision-making at?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

There are different ways a prosecution might be initiated. They might be initiated with a local office - I will ask Mr. Blake to come in and help me – or they might be initiated through the investigations division. We established an oversight group in respect of the investigations division. I will give an example. The Deputy raised an issue with me a couple years ago about an instance where we did not prosecute somebody in an animal welfare case. She probably remembers it.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I remember it well.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

That decision was made at the appropriate level. It certainly was not made at a senior level. At the time, it was the subject of some public controversy. The individual concerned, or the people who made the decision, might have made it for the best of reasons. However, I felt at the time that they had no protection for that kind of judgment that they made. It was partly in response to that that we wanted to make sure that if the division were to decide, for example, that it had evidence but on balance it was unlikely to succeed and on balance there were external factors, there would be some kind of system for assisting those people to do it. That was part of the reason. Mr. Blake might elaborate a little bit on that. The line responsibility for the investigations division is with our head of corporate affairs. On who the specific members are on the committee, the head of corporate affairs and our legal services would be on it. Mr. Blake might know who else is on it.

Mr. Martin Blake

The third person on it is Dr. June Fanning, the deputy CVO. That group will oversee any proposal to prosecute. It will either approve, seek further information or decide that prosecution should not happen.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

However, it would be unusual for that group to determine not to prosecute. I am not sure if it has happened if the recommendation from the investigations division was different. That is not the intention.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It is good to know that a system was put in place, and I understand Mr. Gleeson's thinking on that.

Who signed the licence? was it one individual who signed the licence for Shannonside?

Mr. Martin Blake

The issue of the approval would have been signed by the head of the relevant division on the basis of-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Which is the relevant division?

Mr. Martin Blake

The meat hygiene division.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

For the purpose of slight elaboration, there will be a veterinary inspection of the premises, and then they will come back with some kind of a recommendation. The administrative task of issuing the approval would fall to that division.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I wish to come back in.

An Cathaoirleach

Where cattle and other animals are being slaughtered, is it correct to say there are county council vets?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

There are county council vets.

An Cathaoirleach

The money for these vets comes from the witnesses' Department to the county council. It is what is called a contra item. I am trying to remember.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

No. The funding for county council veterinary services in respect of the supervision to those smaller slaughter plants comes through the Food Safety Authority of Ireland, FSAI. It comes from the Department of Health to the FSAI to those plants.

An Cathaoirleach

The county councils call it a contra item and each year it is in the budget. Would those vets be approved by the Department?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

No.

An Cathaoirleach

Would they be qualified?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

There would be a standard they would have to meet.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

We are looking at subsuming those plants and those vets into the Department as a single authority supervising all meat plants in the State. We are currently looking at that.

An Cathaoirleach

That is important because these are only small abattoirs attached to butcher shops and they would operate to high standards. It is important they are not put out of business because they are probably the ones that are using the best practice.

There is one issue on my mind regarding horses and it has come up here several times. The Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board, IHRB, is funded by Horse Racing Ireland. The funds go to the witnesses' Department from the Dáil which then allocates them to Horse Racing Ireland, HRI. HRI in turn funds the IHRB which regulates what is happening under the aegis of HRI. There is a conflict of interest there in that stakeholders might not complain too much about their funder because they depend upon the cheque every year. Could the witnesses briefly address that? Does consideration of that cross the minds of the Department and its senior officials?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I was involved in the Horse Racing Ireland Act 2016. This was something that we collectively reflected on in the committee as one of the issues. The traditional bodies of the Turf Club and National Hunt Racing have refereed racing for 130 years. We had to answer the question as to how we could improve their accountability while allowing them to exercise their independence. The IHRB was a solution to that. We gave it a legal identity in the context of the specific functions that it exercises under the Act. We made it independent. I will double-deck this, but we built into the Act a provision that if there was a disagreement about the funding with HRI, there was a type of arbitration procedure built into the Act for that. I would like to double-deck that but I think that is there.

An Cathaoirleach

We have raised this with the IHRB in this committee and it assured us that it does not feel that it impinges in a negative way. Do the witnesses understand the point I am making?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

It is a legitimate question and one we considered when we put the Act through. It might be helpful to look at the funding given to the IHRB over recent years. It has increased. It has not-----

An Cathaoirleach

I am aware that it has increased. The witnesses might clarify this point when they come back with the piece of information on whether there is an arbitration.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I will check that.

An Cathaoirleach

I want to raise the issue of tuberculosis, TB, screening. The committee previously did a report on this and we put in some recommendations which I want to revert to, because it has been a problem in this country for longer than I have been around. The incidents of it are increasing. If I heard correctly over the last few days, incidents in the first six months of this year are up again. It went from 3.27% of the bovine herd, to 4.99% in the first quarter of 2024. That is a big increase. We have gone from just over 3% to 5% of the herd. That is a serious jump. The Department outlined in correspondence to us that we got last week that research carried out found that the principal cause of the introduction and spread of TB include movement of cattle with undetected infection, residual infection in cattle previously exposed to TB, spread across farm boundaries, indirect spread via security breaches and the spread with badgers, cattle and deer which come up in some areas. Could the witnesses briefly explain what they mean by number four, which referred to indirect spread through other biodiversity breaches?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I am going to defer to Mr. Blake on this. I will say that the herd incidents in the first six months of 2024 are 5.12%.

An Cathaoirleach

It is really concerning.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

It is concerning.

An Cathaoirleach

Farmers are terrified. I have spoken to some of them and they really are concerned about this.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

We are at a point now where we must do something different. If we keep doing the same things-----

An Cathaoirleach

We can talk about that in a minute. I want to go back to the question.

Mr. Martin Blake

What that was intended to convey was sharing of transport vehicles, farm machinery and where people are working together as they might have done in the past. Obviously, that would facilitate spread of disease from farm to farm. That was a catch-all phrase for all of that.

An Cathaoirleach

It suggests that given the scale of it and the rate at which it is increasing, it will be doubled very soon if we do not sort it. This needs to be treated as an emergency by the Department and by the agriculture sector. This has the potential to spread. It has high levels of contagion and it has been a problem since the 1940s and 1950s. As a child, I remember hearing about TB in the herd at a funeral.

What is the current projection for funding required for the TB programme going forward, considering that increase in the incident rate? In a previous year, it was said that it would take €1 billion over a ten-year period. The aim is to eradicate it by 2030 but we are going in the opposite direction. We have gone from just over 3% to over 5%. What is the level of funding that is needed now and what is the assessment?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

By the end of this year we will need approximately €80 million for the Exchequer contribution.

An Cathaoirleach

That is not counting salary costs.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

No.

An Cathaoirleach

That is a huge increase. The part coming from the European Union is €2 million to €3 million a year according to notes we have here.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

That disappears after this year.

An Cathaoirleach

We are on our own after that. It is the farmers and the taxpayers after this.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

The figure I have given is for the taxpayer. Farmers also pay for their first test and those cost €45 million or €46 million a year. There are levies as well on sales of meat and milk, exports and------

An Cathaoirleach

The taxpayer piece is going from €57 million in 2022 to over €80 million this year.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

It could be approximately €80 million this year.

An Cathaoirleach

Why is TB increasing when we are putting significant funding into it? The witnesses gave us five reasons. Is there one single thing that can be done to try to stop the spread because it has huge implications for the dairy industry and the public purse? As a food producer, it has huge implications.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

The short answer is that there is no one single thing that can be done but there are multiple things that can be done. They will be difficult. The herd incidents are 5%, for example, which means 95% of herds do not currently have this disease. How do we stop the disease getting to those herds? It could mean restrictions on movements in positive herds or it could mean using technology. We know the possibility of vaccination is being explored in the UK but vaccination could have implications for trade. Historically, the difficulty with vaccination was that it was difficult to tell the difference between a vaccinated animal and a positive animal. There were surveillance complications, but they may have cracked that now.

There is the wildlife issue and an issue with deer. We are looking at all of those issues, but there has to be a step-up in action now. We are working with farmers through a TB forum.

However, some of what emerges might be contested. We really have to make sure we stop this disease spreading. A major cause of the spread is the farm-to-farm movement of animals.

An Cathaoirleach

Is one aspect the significant expansion of the herd? There are herds that have increased from 50 cows to 1,000. To me, as a layperson, that presents a huge risk.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

There are very few 1,000-cow herds.

An Cathaoirleach

There are some.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

However, the Cathaoirleach is right in that larger herds contribute to the risk. They also contribute to the costs because, if they go down, there are many more animals to pay for.

An Cathaoirleach

Reference was made to the cost to the taxpayer. All in, it is in excess of €100 million per year. To inform the public and ourselves, could Mr. Gleeson state what the money is spent on?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I have a table, but Mr. Blake might-----

An Cathaoirleach

I just want a couple of examples.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Compensation is an example. Of the €57 million spent in 2022, €26.5 million was spent on compensating. There would also be administrative costs, such as those related to tuberculin, and costs associated with the wildlife programme and testing. The Department covers the cost of second tests. The biggest part of the Exchequer contribution is compensation for people.

An Cathaoirleach

What is the level of vaccination at the moment? Is anything being done in terms of-----

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

We do not vaccinate cows because of the complexities. We might crack that at some point in the future.

An Cathaoirleach

Is there anything happening?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

We vaccinate badgers. Last year, we vaccinated about 9,000 badgers. It is a programme for Government commitment to increase the rate of vaccination. The badger is a protected species. We are now vaccinating more badgers than we are culling, so we have really advanced in that regard. I am not sure what the culling figures were last year. Particularly where there is a bad outbreak associated with the badger, we might still cull, but our preference is to vaccinate. The evidence we have is that it is no less effective than culling.

An Cathaoirleach

Mr. Blake wanted to contribute.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

He has just given me some useful figures. In 2023, 9,062 badgers were captured in vaccination areas. Of those, 5,116 were newly vaccinated. The rest had already been vaccinated. By way of comparison, 6,308 badgers were removed in 2023.

An Cathaoirleach

Could I have the most recent headline figure for vaccinations again?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

In 2023, 9,062 badgers were captured in the vaccination area. Of these, 5,116 were newly vaccinated. The other ones captured had already been vaccinated.

An Cathaoirleach

What are the relevant areas of the country? Clare now has a low level but it was very high. What counties now show up in red lights?

Mr. Martin Blake

In the context of disease in cattle, the highest incidence would be in the major dairy areas. There are larger outbreaks in the-----

An Cathaoirleach

North Cork.

Mr. Martin Blake

-----general Cork area but also in the north-eastern area and the Cavan–Monaghan region. The outbreaks are associated with larger herds. More cows are reactors now than in the past.

An Cathaoirleach

So, there is a correlation between the high incidence of TB and areas where large herds are concentrated. I am talking about typical herds of 200 cows upwards.

Mr. Martin Blake

Where there is a greater gathering of animals, the spread will happen within herds more easily, meaning more reactors within those types of herds once the infection gets in.

An Cathaoirleach

The strategy was to eradicate the disease by 2030. How realistic is that?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

It is a huge challenge. We had this discussion last year as well and asked whether we should call it an eradication strategy. We are required to call it that, and that has to be our objective. Ten years ago, having this conversation about brucellosis, we would have been told it was impossible to eradicate it, but we did eradicate it. We eradicated it with measures that were tough on people. We do have to review everything we are doing here.

An Cathaoirleach

Has there been any examination of the vaccination of badgers to determine whether it has been effective? Can Mr. Gleeson stand over its effectiveness?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Yes. There has been a research programme on it. Mr. Blake may correct me if I am wrong but I believe the conclusion was that vaccination was no less effective than culling.

Mr. Martin Blake

As we roll out the vaccine, we are carrying out further research just to ensure that what we understood from prior research carries through in the field.

An Cathaoirleach

Is there any vaccination of deer?

Mr. Martin Blake

We have not vaccinated deer. We are aware from research that in the Wicklow area, in particular, the sharing of the bacterium between badgers, deer and cattle is very common. We have not seen the same correlation in other parts of the country where we have done the research. The deer are wild. It is one thing capturing badgers but capturing deer to vaccinate them would be challenging. It is in our thinking in the context of something we might like to do.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

We set up a deer task force, chaired by Teddy Cashman, and it came forward with a series of recommendations. We are on the point of procuring a project manager with a view to doing something to manage the deer population.

An Cathaoirleach

Does one recommendation involve landowners fencing land, particularly along main roads and even along the motorway, where deer are crisscrossing? There have been serious accidents in County Laois.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

That may be one of the recommendations; I am not certain.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask that that be considered. On the N77 at the far side of Abbeyleix, the old main Cork road that goes to Durrow, and on the road to Ballacolla, there have been very bad accidents. On the motorway at Emo, south of Monasterevin, there have also been very bad accidents. I travel that road every day. Whether the land is owned by Coillte or a farmer, the owner has a responsibility, but it is a case of nobody taking responsibility. This comes up at county council meetings the whole time and people have complained to me about it. One man’s jeep – he was lucky he was in a jeep – was absolutely melodeoned when it hit a large deer. It was nearly written off completely. Had the man been in a car, there would have been a possibility of serious injury or loss of life. I ask that Mr. Gleeson come back to us to clarify whether deer fencing is one of the recommendations. If not, I ask that it be one. There is a road safety issue along with an animal welfare issue. Obviously, we do not want to see deer splattered on the motorway either.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

The Chair has covered most of the ground but I want to pick up on the vaccination programme, particularly insofar as it relates to badgers. It sounds very much like we are going in the right direction. I am delighted to hear that and that our practice is underpinned by research that indicates vaccination is no less effective than culling. If you cull a badger, you create movement within the population because another animal moves in. How much money is going into the programme? Is it a case of resources? The numbers are pretty good. If we caught 9,000 badgers and it is reckoned that the wild population is about 90,000, it means that each year we are getting through 10% of what we imagine the badger population to be. How much money are we putting into this? Are the resources at the right level or could further resources be provided?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

We are looking at our notes to see whether we have a figure for the wildlife element of the programme. We will certainly come back to the Deputy with a figure.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I was going to ask about the flip side, namely the deer-management strategy. Maybe the officials will have the figures dug out afterwards. Am I correct that we have not implemented the deer management strategy yet and are still formulating it?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

No. There is a strategy published. A key element of it is the recruitment of a project manager to try to develop a programme for the management of populations. We are now at the point where we have commenced a procurement exercise to try to recruit a project manager who will come forward with a plan for the control of deer.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Although "straightforward" may not be the word I would use to describe the management of a deer population, a deer population is managed through culling in an Irish context because the deer have no predators.

Is it the Department of agriculture which is responsible for issuing licences for deer hunters? Where does that lie?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

That lies with the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Does the Department of agriculture speak to the NPWS? Surely that will be a central plank of our deer management strategy.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Clearly, if we have an applicant who comes forward with a strategy, we will have to talk to everybody involved about what kind of arrangements, administrative arrangements and licensing arrangements, would be needed to manage populations. That would have to be part of it, yes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Would Mr. Gleeson be aware of the number of deer culled? Has the Department spoken to the NPWS to get its hands on those figures?

Mr. Martin Blake

The deer strategy is brought forward in conjunction with the NPWS. It is a joint departmental issue so it is part and parcel of the strategy. In relation to the numbers of deer killed, I do not have that number but we can get that for the Deputy.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Is there any differentiation between sika and red deer in that the red deer are native and sika are non-native. Would I be right in saying that the sika are much more problematic in terms of moving across landscape?

Mr. Martin Blake

My understanding is the vast numbers in the Wicklow area are sika and that is where most of the data we have is from. We will get the Deputy the data in relation to the number of deer culled each year.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Let us say there is no specific instruction to the people who would be involved in deer culling to cull one but not the other.

Mr. Martin Blake

It is licensed by the NPWS-----

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I would imagine the NPWS would have a view on that and obviously, it is part and parcel of this strategy.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Could we return to that wildlife element if Mr Blake has had the opportunity to pull the figures out?

Mr. Martin Blake

I have data here in relation to the spend on the wildlife unit vaccinations. For instance, in 2023 we spent in the region of €3.9 million on the wildlife unit vaccination programme. In 2020, we spent €1.8 million.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

It is still less than one eighth of the compensation programme. It represents very good value for money if we can prevent paying out a compensation programme by investing more in our vaccination programme. That seems to me to represent good value for money.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

We have to do both and it is departmental policy to increase the rate of vaccination and it is a programme for Government commitment, as the Deputy knows.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I want to talk about the animal welfare officer. In Mr. Gleeson's reply to us, he told us that the animal welfare officer is responsible for assisting the business operation to ensure compliance with the relevant welfare legislation within the plant and requires a more extensive level of training than the other plant operatives dealing with and handling live animals. The application to the Department for designation as the animal welfare officer must include evidence of having passed a specific course, the one we talked about with Teagasc, and must contain a signed, written declaration that the applicant has committed no serious infringement of EU or national law for the protection of animals. Infringement does not mean conviction. Even a pending prosecution would fall within that category, am I right on that?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I do not know the answer to that, but it is a reasonable one. I do not know how an infringement of law is being interpreted by the courts but it generally means that you have broken the law and to establish somebody has broken the law, you generally need a conviction. Honestly, I am not sure. Clearly, that is something we are looking at.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

On what date was the last licence issued for Shannonside Foods?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

My understanding is that it was issued in 2015 but I do not have the specific date. Again, I will come back to the Deputy with that.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

One of the charges was dated from 2014 but was not heard until November 2016. What was on the charge was the person did neglect or be reckless regarding the health or welfare of 54 horses contrary to section 12(b) of the Animal Health and Welfare Act 2013. That was the pending charge.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

That was one of the charges that was dismissed, not because the witness did not turn up but it was dismissed.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It was still a live-----

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Yes, correct.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Has Mr. Gleeson seen the Mazars report?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I have seen a draft.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

They told us they were going to publish that as soon as it was received. We are presuming that is now a final report.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I have not seen a final report but I would say its publication is imminent.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I know it is a policy issue in relation to the 80:20 in terms of horses and dogs. The greyhounds are designated as livestock, whether they race or not, and that is why they are under Mr. Gleeson's Department. I always found that kind of difficult to figure out because a dog is a dog. The overbreeding was obviously the subject of that previous episode of "Prime Time Investigates." The welfare aspect only requires the provision of welfare for dogs that have raced, and there is a fund there for welfare. It does not require the covering of the welfare of a breed that is deemed livestock. Where does that welfare aspect lie if it is outside of racing?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

The owner of any animal, regardless of species, has obligations under the Animal Health and Welfare Act 2013.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It is the ones that do not comply with that who-----

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

If you do not comply with the Act, that is an offence. There are specific rules in relation to greyhounds and one of the things I mentioned last year was that Rásaíocht Con Éireann, RCE, is trying to improve its traceability system. We did have a discussion last year about the fact that traceability system relates only to racing greyhounds and it is there and being improved. I am open to the notion that it should extend beyond racing greyhounds.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I hope it will. When we looked at the viability, and I think we had Bord na gCon as it was at the time in here, there was actually only one track out of all the tracks that was viable. Two would have been viable if the prize money was covered. Has that changed or is that something the Department monitors?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I do not have the figures but I doubt it has changed dramatically. It is a double sided argument. On the one hand you could say the sector is not viable without State support and the State wants to support it. I know the Deputy is coming at it from a different perspective but-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I know I am and when I think of what you could spend €18 million or €20 million on, it would not be my first choice but that is a policy issue.

In relation to the fish landing regime, obviously there was an issue there at European level. Are we fully compliant now and, if so, what has brought us into compliance?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

There were a few issues. I might defer to Ms McSherry. I am glad I brought her now. There were a few issues. One was that there was an administrative inquiry into the controls applying at piers and we came forward. The Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority, SFPA, which is operationally independent of the Department, brought forward a control plan which satisfied European Union requirements. As far as I am aware, that control plan is in place, operating and compliant. Ms McSherry will correct me if I am wrong.

Ms Sinéad McSherry

No, that is correct. At the end of last year, the control plan had been approved by the Commission and it is in operation.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

How did that come to public attention? Mr. Gleeson might remind us of that, or at least how it came to the Department's attention.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

There was a Commission audit of the SFPA and that is how it came to our attention and it resulted in an inquiry. That is how it came to our attention.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

In terms of protected disclosures, how many do the Department currently have and what has it been like over the last five years?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I should have anticipated that question because I think the Deputy asked it before but I still do not know the answer. I will come back to the Deputy with the number of protected discloses. We get protected disclosures from time to time but not a huge number, and we have a process in place for dealing with them but I will come back to her with the numbers.

An Cathaoirleach

In relation to the forestry scheme, it is one that we have raised in the past. There was an estimated provision of €100 million in 2022. That is the figure I have. There is an outturn of €74 million. That kind of a headline shows it is underperforming.

The €100 million was to plant 8,000 ha under the scheme. That would be about 18,000 acres. Three quarters of the money was spent. Were a corresponding number of trees planted in that year? Were 6,000 to 6,500 ha planted in that year?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

No. I would imagine, and Mr. Savage can confirm this, that there were about 2,200 to 2,500 ha planted that year. That provision is made up of two elements. There are grants for planting that offset the costs of planting for applicants and there are premiums. At that time if a person applied and planted trees, they got a premium for 15 years. The bulk of the expenditure on that heading is for the premiums and a smaller amount is for planting. We have now extended that premium, for farmers only, to 20 years. We have a new forestry programme and have dramatically increased the rates of the premium by between 40% and 60%. We have a more attractive programme but it is in its infancy.

An Cathaoirleach

What is the plan for this year in terms of planting? My understanding is that at the moment the timber industry has a plentiful supply and will for about ten to 15 years, particularly for construction. All the signs point to more construction being done using timber, and that is great. It is more sustainable, better in terms of the climate, and it is great for Irish industry. However, the problem is, and my information is, that beyond that ten- to 15-year period we are going to see a nosedive in the quantities available because we are not planting. How much was planted last year? What planting was done?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

It was about 2,500 ha.

An Cathaoirleach

That is just over one quarter of what we need to be doing.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

There are a couple of things. The first is that every tree that is harvested needs to be replanted. Every forest that is harvested has to be replanted. The second is that this is a voluntary land use for people. We are dependent entirely on the applications people make and the licensing process has had its difficulties, as the Cathaoirleach knows. We have improved that and have a much better programme now, but there are environmental conditionalities that make it difficult to plant in places where we used to. For example, we used to plant on deep peat, which was probably not a great idea, but we are not allowed to do that anymore.

An Cathaoirleach

Is that because of restriction on depth?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Yes, exactly. It probably led to a net emission, which is not the objective of having a forestry programme. The environmental conditionality is substantial but we have a licensing system now which will deliver a licence to a new applicant within six months, if an appropriate assessment for an environmental purchase is not required, or within nine months. The returns from the premiums are dramatically improved, but there is a bit of a culture shift required for farmers to decide they are going to put part of their land into trees in perpetuity. The Cathaoirleach will understand that. It is a big challenge, but all of the trees we are harvesting have to be replanted. All we are talking about is the additional planting. Two and a half thousand is not close to our target, but it is probably about 3.5 million trees.

An Cathaoirleach

Is 2,500 the additional amount? Is that new planting that was not in existence?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

Yes. New planting. At the beginning of the State we had about 1% forestry. We now have about 11% and we are trying to raise that figure.

An Cathaoirleach

We managed to burn an awful lot of it in the previous 200 years - all of those big houses with 20 to 25 chimneys.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I will let the Cathaoirleach do the historical analysis. I might not be allowed to say that.

An Cathaoirleach

There would have been a fella with a full-time job going around stoking them. We can see that going around this city and looking at the number of chimneys on older buildings.

With regard to the fees, there is a question I want to ask about the cost of planting per hectare. There has been a ten or 11-fold increase in the cost to the farmer. What can be done about that? What I am being told is that by the time a person actually gets to plant, to go through the process, there is a ten or 11-fold jump in the administration costs and preparation and all of that. Can anything be done about that? That would appear to be a barrier.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

All I can say, and Mr. Savage will come in with better detail than I have, is that the planting grants have been doubled in the last programme, or close to doubled. The premiums are hugely attractive. The grants are reasonably reflective of the associated costs on the basis of our analysis. If I am wrong about any of that, Mr. Savage will correct me.

An Cathaoirleach

Can Mr. Savage see signs of the graph going up in terms of the take-up and scale or is it still going downwards?

Mr. Paul Savage

We need to take account of the fact that the programme is just in place, effectively. We have put in place new arrangements on foot of the approval of the programme by the Commission last year.

An Cathaoirleach

How long is it in place?

Mr. Paul Savage

The new programme launched last September. We have had to incorporate into our systems the means to deal with all that conditionality and the criteria the Commission imposed upon us in terms of approving the programme. The Secretary General mentioned earlier that that relates to things like sensitive areas, deep peats and criteria we have to apply in a number of other areas to assess whether a plantation is allowed in a particular place. We have had a transition over recent months from the instigation of the new programme to try to shift that culture, as was mentioned. We are making it very attractive in terms of the increase in the rates.

An Cathaoirleach

Has the Department halted the decrease or is it still decreasing?

Mr. Paul Savage

In terms of the rate of planting?

An Cathaoirleach

The number of applications and the scale of them.

Mr. Paul Savage

The number of applications is slower than we would like at the moment. It is coming in on the forestation side at about 14 per week.

An Cathaoirleach

I am trying to get an answer. In comparison with three or four years ago, is it still going downwards?

Mr. Paul Savage

No, it is starting to pick up now compared with three or four years ago.

An Cathaoirleach

Is the scale of those applications in terms of the number of hectares increasing? Mr. Savage will know that a lot of the grants that were given were for very small parcels of land. They might have been provided for ten acres or whatever. It is good that that happened, but do they tend to be of a larger scale now? Are we planting the trees? That is what I am worried about? For the money we are putting in?

Mr. Paul Savage

I do not have the figures to hand for the typical number of trees that would be of the scale of a plantation. In terms of individual applications, it is pretty consistent with the scale of the applications we have received in the past. It is really about getting the numbers up. The number of applications needs to increase. That is the key issue.

An Cathaoirleach

The size of what is being applied for does make a difference, whether someone is applying for 2 ha or 22 ha. That is my point.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

We need to get landowners to plant trees, and generally they are farmers. Is this a big culture shift? I accept the point the Cathaoirleach is making, but what we are giving people is a number of choices so they can participate in agroforestry and keep grazing their animals under the trees. We have a small planting scheme where you do not need a licence but you can plant a hectare of trees, or two if they are along a riverbank. We have various options for people and those small things will not result in a big bang in terms of tree numbers the way the Cathaoirleach is talking about, but they do get farmers used to the idea that they can do this and earn a living from it. It is a toehold into the sector. This is a 30-year investment and we are right at the start of a programme where we are asking people to set a chunk of land aside in perpetuity. The message has to be that this is not instead of farming. This can be a valuable part of a farm enterprise. We have to do all of those things.

An Cathaoirleach

This can be a component of agroforestry. I am trying to get a sense of where this is at. Has agroforestry taken off? Is the Department getting applications for agroforestry where a person will have some trees and some farming in the same fields?

Mr. Paul Savage

So far we are seeing a lot of interest in the agroforestry. That has not come true in terms of figures.

An Cathaoirleach

What about applications? Is the Department getting applications?

Mr. Paul Savage

We are getting applications but they are not coming through in significant numbers. We are in the early stages of promoting and increasing the awareness of what is there in terms of agroforestry. We have expanded the type of agroforestry systems that are capable of being supported. We were involved in silvicultural systems and we are expanding into other areas. Obviously, demand has gone up-----

An Cathaoirleach

In terms of trees?

Mr. Paul Savage

Yes. There is a lot more flexibility also in terms of agroforestry now-----

An Cathaoirleach

How much can a person plant without a licence?

Mr. Paul Savage

Without a licence, under the native tree area scheme a person can plant up to 2 ha: 1 ha plus 1 ha as per the current margin.

An Cathaoirleach

That has to be native trees.

Mr. Paul Savage

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

That is fine. The money is going in and the area has been underperforming. There has been significant difficulty.

My last question on the matter relates to the licences. I raised this with officials from the Department. I expect there are not many TDs in the House who have not raised it at some point. There were huge problems with that and it is urgent that we address it. What is the average timeline for applications for felling licences to be processed? That was a big problem in my area.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

The commitment, which we will meet, is that new applicants who do not need an appropriate assessment for environmental purposes will get a licence within six months. If an appropriate assessment is required, it will take nine months. There is no way to abbreviate those processes because, for example, before we start, we must do two 30-day public consultations.

An Cathaoirleach

I get that, but I am concerned about felling licences in particular. What is the average timeline for them? Do they go to Wexford?

Mr. Paul Savage

When licence applications come in they are centrally processed in Wexford and some of them are done elsewhere around the country as well. On the felling side, I do not have the number off the top of my head in terms of-----

An Cathaoirleach

What kind of timeline are we talking about? They were taking three years.

Mr. Paul Savage

In an overall sense, we have seen waiting times reduce across the board. On the afforestation side we are down to approximately 11 or 12 months from what was previously greater than 24 months. I think it is less than 11 months on the felling side. It is closer now to the six- and nine-month turnaround times.

An Cathaoirleach

It is important that further work is done on that, and that a target of perhaps six months is put on it.

Mr. Paul Savage

I would add that we have committed to those targets in the farmers' charter negotiations that were finished recently. We are saying that we will turn those licence applications around in six months where there is no need for an environmental assessment, EA, and nine months where there is an EA. We are making changes to the structures internally in terms of the integration of the forestry inspectorate and ecology resources to try to make sure that those licences are processed quickly.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Savage.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I have two quick questions, if that is okay. We obviously do not have an equine abattoir now and, to date, there have been no live exports since the licence was revoked. When does that become a problem? Is it immediately or will it be something we will see in the winter? What are the strategies to deal with this?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

First of all, people have obligations to the animals they own.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I understand that.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

There are lawful ways to dispose of animals or to export animals. It is not that we have stopped exporting animals. We have not stopped the export of animals and it is possible to do that. There was a second strand to the question that I have forgotten.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

When will it become a problem?

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

It will only become a problem if people behave unlawfully. There are ways to do this. We have had a number of expressions of interest in establishing an abattoir and we are considering them. There is a big difference between expressing interest and following through. We are being as helpful as we can to anybody who has approached us. We have had three or four approaches.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

This is my final question. In the case of Shannonside, was the animal welfare officer the owner's son?

Mr. Martin Blake

Yes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

He got that role to begin with at the age of 16.

An Cathaoirleach

We must be careful about what is said in this regard.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I have seen the questions. We got press queries but I do not know the answer to that.

An Cathaoirleach

He is a family member. I thank the witnesses for clarifying that. Mr. Gleeson wanted to correct the record in terms of something he said earlier.

Mr. Brendan Gleeson

I think I said that the current investigation of Shannonside is about animal welfare and identification issues. In fact, it is just about identification and traceability.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Gleeson for the clarification. Mr. Martin helped him to clarify it.

I thank the witnesses and staff of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform for their work in preparing for today's meeting. I also thank the Comptroller and Auditor General and his staff for assisting the committee.

Is it agreed to seek any follow-up information and to carry out any agreed actions relating to the meeting? Agreed. Is it also agreed that we note and publish the opening statements and briefings provided for today’s meeting? Agreed.

I will suspend the meeting until 1.30 p.m. when we will resume in public session to address correspondence and any other business of the committee.

The witnesses withdrew.

Sitting suspended at 12.34 p.m. and resumed at 1.30 p.m.