COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 3 Oct 2024

Special Report No. 117 of the Comptroller Auditor General: University of Limerick Property Acquisitions in Limerick City

Mr. John Field (Acting Chief Finance and Performance Officer) called and examined.

An Cathaoirleach

The witnesses are all very welcome. I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are switched off or on silent mode. To start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses as regard references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and by statute, by absolute privilege. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that is not abused. Therefore, if statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative they comply with such directions.

Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses of the Oireachtas or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also ask that members and witnesses refrain from commenting on matters that may be the subject of live criminal investigations. Members are reminded of the provision of Standing Order 218, that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits or the objectives of such policies. Furthermore, it is not the role of this committee to make findings of fact about a person who is not a Member of the Oireachtas that could impinge on their good name and reputation and I ask members to be mindful of this in their examination of the issues during questioning.

The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee. He is accompanied this morning by Ms Mary Henry, deputy director at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

We are engaging this morning with representatives from the University of Limerick to examine the following matters: financial statements 2021 and 2022 and the Comptroller and Auditor General's special report No. 117 - University of Limerick property acquisitions in Limerick city. Specific areas of interest flagged by this committee include governance and associated due diligence and the university's purchase of the Limerick city centre site in 2019 and houses for student accommodation at Rhebogue in Limerick in 2023.

We are joined by the following representatives from University of Limerick: Professor Brigid Laffan, chancellor; Professor Shane Kilcommins, acting president; Mr. John Kelly, corporate secretary; and Mr. John Field, acting chief finance and performance officer. We are also joined by the following representatives from the Higher Education Authority: Dr. Alan Wall, chief executive officer, and Mr. Ciarán McCaffrey, head of capital funding, and from the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science: Mr. Paul Lemass, assistant secretary, and Mr. Keith Moynes, assistant secretary. They are all very welcome.

I call on the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, to deliver his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

When the representatives of the University of Limerick were last before the committee on 9 May 2024, I outlined the key financial results for the 2021-2022 year of account. I do not propose to repeat that presentation this morning. It is regrettable that the audited financial statements for the 2022-2023 year of account are not yet available for the committee. I completed my review of the audit work around mid-June, and cleared the accounts for signing, subject to a number of issues, including two proposed impairments, being finalised. I am waiting for the university to present final accounts approved by the governing authority, so that I can present my report on the 2022-2023 year of account.

Members will recall there have been a number of well-publicised control and governance issues in the University of Limerick in recent years. This and the previous committee inquired repeatedly about issues raised by whistleblowers and about the way concerns raised had been dealt with. In 2018, I presented a special report on the way the university had handled aspects of remuneration of certain senior staff members. Issues reported included higher-than-normal awards of professional added years for pension purposes; the admission of staff of a subsidiary company to the University of Limerick’s pension scheme; and the circumstances of the award of severance terms to two former staff members. In the latter case, we found that the university had previously misrepresented the terms of the severance deals to my office, to the committee and to the Department of further and higher education. In audit certificates in recent years, I have also drawn attention to issues such as non–compliant procurement; senior management overriding of controls; and a severance arrangement with a former president, which the university argued was not a severance. Some of the issues referenced triggered inquiries and reports commissioned by the university into its governance and controls. All of this provides a relevant context for consideration of the special report on the university’s acquisitions of property in Limerick city.

I commenced the special report being considered by the committee today because of the constraints around publication of the KPMG report commissioned by the university into the 2019 acquisition at Honan’s Quay. As part of that, we reviewed the 2022-2023 Rhebogue acquisition to establish whether better processes had been implemented. In April 2019, the university applied to the Higher Education Authority for capital funding towards the development of a premises in the centre of Limerick city. This included a proposal to purchase a site for the development in the city’s opera quarter at an estimated cost of €3 million. However, the university instead approved the purchase of a property at the nearby Honan’s Quay for over €8 million. As we found no evidence of any additional benefits to be gained by the purchase of the Honan’s Quay property compared to that at the opera quarter that would warrant the increased purchase cost, it is difficult to see how that purchase represented value for money.

The university did not obtain a formal valuation report on the property prior to purchase. This was contrary to provisions of the public spending code. Nevertheless, it was represented to the university’s governing authority that a valuation report had been obtained and the governing authority did not request the valuation report.

An independent valuation of the Honan’s Quay property in 2023 concluded the university had paid around one third more than the market value in 2019, even allowing for any special interest it might have in the property.

The university has proposed that a €3 million impairment charge, or write-down loss, be recognised in its 2022-2023 annual financial statements. A key concern is that, more than five years on, the university remains without a clear development and funding plan for the Honan’s Quay property.

The university was approached by a developer in late 2021 regarding a proposal for the construction of houses on a site in Rhebogue which would be either leased or sold to the University for use as student accommodation. Despite the adoption of new property acquisition procedures by the university following the Honan’s Quay acquisition, there were significant failures in the due diligence associated with the Rhebogue development. Prior to the purchase, planning advice from relevant professionals was not conclusive, but the university did not seek clarification from the local authority. In December 2023, the university received a warning letter from Limerick City and County Council stating that the change of use to student accommodation without planning permission may represent an unauthorised development. At the time I was signing the report, this matter had not been resolved.

In March 2022, the university commissioned formal valuation reports to provide the open market value of the Rhebogue properties. In August 2022, the purchase price proposed to the governing authority was based on the net rental yield method for valuing property. Even though the accommodation was generally configured as a standard housing development, information on the sales price comparison method for valuing property was not provided to the governing authority, and this would have yielded a much lower valuation.

The university signed a contract to purchase the houses in August 2022 that required only a peppercorn deposit. It concluded the purchase on 10 October 2023, at a cost of €11.4 million, representing an average purchase price of almost €572,000 per house. The university failed to identify that the purchase was also liable to stamp duty, resulting in an additional cost of over €1 million. A March 2024 independent valuation of the Rhebogue property indicates that the university probably paid significantly more than it should have. The university has proposed to recognise an asset impairment charge of €5.2 million in its 2022-23 annual financial statements.

The report makes recommendations for improvements in the university’s property acquisition policies, procedures and controls. These have been accepted by the university and now need to be properly and effectively implemented.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

University of Limerick has many fine achievements to its name. Despite recent controversies, its academic standing is unquestioned. This is a testament to our staff and students, and to the vision of those who, by sheer force of will, brought University of Limerick into being more than 50 years ago.

As the acting Accounting Officer, I am here to meet the statutory obligations of that office to report to the Committee of Public Accounts, the Comptroller and Auditor General and, of course, the university itself in respect of these property acquisitions and the loss of public funds they occasioned.

As the acting president of the university, I wish to take this opportunity to address our stakeholders and state again that I am deeply sorry for what has happened and the damage that the transactions have done to UL's reputation, to morale and for the restrictions that have been placed on our institutional independence, which all universities cherish.

In the briefing document submitted to the committee last week, I provided significant detail related to the Honan’s Quay and Rhebogue properties. I also provided particulars related to the status of various processes and reviews, whether ongoing or concluded. Finally, I outlined the steps we have taken and continue to take along with our regulators and key stakeholders to regain institutional grip and rebuild trust and confidence in the university's ability to manage its own affairs.

It is now just over five months since the university was last before the public accounts committee. The period in between has been very challenging for the university as we worked through the inevitable fallout from the Rhebogue transaction. A series of reviews, including the section 64 review, were put in train by the Higher Education Authority, HEA. We have worked closely with that authority to provide the team with all the assistance possible. The scope and the scale of these reviews has been both broad and deep, and they have understandably gone far beyond what happened at Rhebogue. We facilitated these reviews while also ensuring that our commitment to our core mission of academic excellence did not falter. I am grateful to the many people within the university who supported these endeavours.

Ensuring that these reviews are comprehensive is important because they provide us with the information that will help strengthen our foundation for the future. I am confident that although this process was extremely difficult, UL will undoubtedly be the better for it in the long run.

On UL’s delegation, the chancellor of the university, Professor Brigid Laffan, is in attendance today. The chancellor chairs the new governing authority, which was appointed following the enactment of the Higher Education Authority Act 2022. The chancellor will address the committee on the process of change and accountability which the governing authority will lead.

I am also accompanied by my colleagues, Mr. John Field, the acting chief financial and performance officer, and Mr. John Kelly, the corporate secretary. Together, we will answer any question put to us by the committee truthfully and in as much detail as possible.

We have also shared with the committee in our briefing document the steps taken towards reform since we last met and we look forward to discussing that further with members this morning.

On the status of the reviews, a section 64 review was submitted to the HEA in accordance with the requirements of the statute. Deloitte was appointed to undertake this review following a competitive process. The HEA has provided feedback on the review following its submission, and the governing authority has now submitted a draft that reflects the key impactful changes that are needed following the findings and recommendations made by the Deloitte report. The chancellor will briefly address these in her opening statement.

Forvis Mazars was engaged by the HEA to undertake an independent review of the culture at the university. The university expects to receive this report very shortly from the HEA.

An experienced barrister has been appointed to conduct a review of protected disclosures at University of Limerick. He has met with a number of individuals, including those who made disclosures and those who were appointed to oversee the various processes of investigation put in place as a result. The field work for this investigation is nearing completion and a report is now under preparation.

On Honan's Quay and Rhebogue, although these were separate transactions, and they are treated as such in the UL briefing document, I will address them together because the similarities in governance shortcomings are both remarkable and stark. First, the university significantly overpaid for both assets, and this has resulted in two separate financial impairments in its financial statements for the year 2022-2023. In the case of Honan’s Quay, the amount of the impairment was €3.044 million and, in the case of Rhebogue, the amount is higher at €5.225 million. This represents a cumulative loss of €8.269 million.

Second, the approach to planning was deficient in both cases. Prior to the purchase of the former Dunnes Stores site, no planning advice was taken regarding the change of use. In the case of Rhebogue, professional advice was taken, which suggested that existing planning, which was for residential dwelling houses, was not sufficient. This did not accord with the developer’s advice, and so the situation was uncertain. In both transactions, the extent of the planning risks were not highlighted to the key decision-making committees of the university.

Third, purchase price is a critical issue in any acquisition by a public body and it must be informed by a negotiating strategy. In the case of Honan’s Quay, the university had no written valuation. In the case of Rhebogue, the financial analysis presented to the governing authority represented a justification of the maximum

price that the university could reasonably pay for the assets as student accommodation. As pointed out by the C and AG, as a negotiating stance, this was detrimental to the university’s and taxpayers' interests.

The final point I wish to highlight is that concerns were raised in the form of protected disclosures in respect of both transactions. In the case of Honan’s Quay, the decision to purchase was made with undue haste and with limited opportunity for the involvement of the buildings and estates division. That division should have led the acquisition. In the case of Rhebogue, again buildings and estates had limited involvement, and the serious concerns it raised in respect of the transaction were not represented to the governing authority.

As highlighted by the C and AG, in both cases, the protected disclosures were managed in a tightly legal-focused way, which did not take account of the more general implications of the disclosures for the university’s system of control and decision-making. This is a key reflection point for the university, and our future approach to such matters will be completely different.

It is noteworthy that, in the aftermath of the Honan’s Quay transaction, the university gave assurance to various stakeholders, including the HEA, the Department of higher education, and this committee that this would not happen again. UL informed the public accounts committee on 18 May 2023 that it was a much-changed institution, yet at the same time, the Rhebogue acquisition had already progressed in a way that did not accord with its new policy on the acquisition of property. As acting Accounting Officer, I am acutely aware we owe the bodies to which we are accountable a legal as well as moral duty of candour.

It is in everyone’s interest that UL is properly run. I assure the committee and the university community that, while we are only at the beginning, there are encouraging signs to that effect. Since our last appearance before the public accounts committee five months ago, the university has taken a number of proactive measures to start this transformation process, including a reset of the executive committee, improved transparency within our community and with stakeholders, enhanced governance, open communications and the adherence to due process. We have fully accepted the recommendations of the C and AG report and are committed to implementing these findings as we drive this process forward.

As acting president, I am confident that both the executive committee and the governing authority are committed to working together in partnership with the HEA. We will take all appropriate steps to achieve transformation and cultural reform in order that UL develops a strong system of governance, high performance and accountability.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Professor Kilcommins for his statement. We now proceed with Professor Laffan's statement.

Professor Brigid Laffan

I am grateful for the opportunity to provide the committee with a brief statement in addition to that provided by the acting president. I was one of the first students of NIHE, and UL matters a great deal to me. During my time as an undergraduate, I grew up there and UL quite literally grew up around me. I accepted the invitation to become chancellor because of the opportunities, academic career and life experience UL gave me. It was transformative in my life and I wanted to give something back. The chancellor’s role has been nothing like I expected it to be. At just my second meeting as chair, Rhebogue was placed on our meeting agenda and it has not left the agenda since, nor, I have accepted, is it unlikely to for the foreseeable future.

Since we last appeared before the committee, the president has resigned, providing stability and certainty to the university and allowing us an opportunity to commence the process of resetting the executive committee. We have also greatly strengthened, with external expertise, the committees that support the governing authority, in particular audit and risk, finance, people and culture. As the committee knows, we are now subject to a section 64 review.

When I last addressed the university community in March, I said the institution would be subject to extreme oversight. Although that description was perhaps a little too strong, it is clear that the HEA will have direct involvement in UL’s institutional governance for at least the next few years. Although I am a strong advocate of independence and university autonomy, UL could not have expected any other outcome given the governance failures, one after another, which characterised the Honan’s Quay and Rhebogue purchases.

Where are we at? The governing authority has submitted the section 64 review to the HEA. The review was conducted by Deloitte at arm’s length from both the executive committee and the governing authority. The obligation to report to the HEA under section 64, however, rests with the authority. In the feedback provided to us, the HEA challenged us to think critically about the findings and recommendations and what they would mean for UL. We were also asked to consider and prioritise the changes that would be most impactful. The governing authority has done what the HEA has asked, outlining what we think these impactful changes might be. It is now a matter for the HEA to consider the next steps and to chart a way forward in partnership with us and in accordance with its statutory oversight powers.

Let me to give the authority’s views. I am conscious the HEA is currently deliberating on an appropriate course of action for the next phase, but I want to give the committee a brief outline of the authority’s reflections. Honan’s Quay and Rhebogue did not occur in a vacuum. Throughout this process we have been asking ourselves how it could be that, despite the change in leadership, so many of the shortcomings were repeated. This is not an easy question but the reports conducted provide us with insight. Certainly, there are structural deficiencies in our systems of governance but culture also played an important part. The governing authority is of the view that approaching reform solely through addressing findings and recommendations, which we will do, will not of itself bring about the change of the scale required. There is a need for deep-rooted cultural change, starting at the top. We are addressing this so that poor governance, similar to Honan’s Quay and Rhebogue, will not arise in the future. Any further lapses in governance would be utterly disastrous for UL’s recovery, and on my watch it will not happen.

Turning to the future, we have four key recommendations. First, we need to establish a transformation programme with a dedicated change management support. There is a large body of recommendations that needs to be worked through diligently and systematically while also thinking about the bigger picture. Given the scale, UL will need to create a dedicated change programme. This will ensure the affairs of the university on a day-to-day basis will also continue. The governing authority will maintain direct oversight of its progress, supported by the audit and risk committee.

Second, the governing authority must model the behaviours that it wishes others to follow. It must be an exemplar of good governance and accountability and must set what I call “tone from the top”. The executive committee is also crucially important here. It will need to lead the cultural change programme on a day-to-day basis, and its members must be instigators, agents, and champions of institutional transformation.

Third is structures, processes and policies of governance. Working closely in partnership with the HEA, the governing authority will lead in the development of the implementation plan, addressing structures, processes and policies of governance with clear action owners, timelines and independent evaluation of progress. Fourth is the prioritisation of internal control, risk management and accountability.

Based on discussions with the newly reconstituted audit and risk committee, I am aware there is a need to greatly strengthen the university’s second and third lines of defence. Risk and compliance require particular attention, and although much has already been done in respect of the former, the latter needs more time and investment. We now have a strong audit and risk committee, but internal audit will need to be significantly strengthened relative to the size and budget of the university.

The governing authority will drive a strong approach to accountability, both individual and collective. There will be zero tolerance for policy deviation and actions that cause the university reputational damage.

This concludes my opening statement. I am happy to assist the members and to address their questions.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Professor Laffan for her statement. To set out at the start of this meeting, the witnesses have been before this and previous committees a number of times, and one of the main issues we are examining is the C and AG's report. The findings are that there is no evidence of an evaluation report being submitted to the governing authority regarding the Dunnes Stores site, defective briefings were given to the governing authority that the witness chairs, and that there was deficient record keeping, inadequate assessment of tax implications, dismissal and override of legitimate arguments, a bias in favour of the acquisition, failure to comply with the principles of the public spending code and incomplete contracts. It is an awful picture. That is what we need to address this morning.

The first speaker is Deputy Cormac Devlin.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I welcome the witnesses. At the outset, I will say that we seldom have such a stark report and statement from the C and AG, but given the severity of the issues at stake here, the witnesses are back five months later to discuss these accounts. Speaking of accounts and echoing what the C and AG's opening statement discussed, what is the status of the 2022 and 2023 accounts today?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

I will ask our finance officer, Mr. Field, to comment on that.

Mr. John Field

As the C and AG has said, the fieldwork of all our auditing is complete. We have external auditors, who are PwC, and the C and AG carries out his statutory audit. We are in the process of working with PwC to finalise the audit. The accounts have not been presented for approval to the governing authority yet because we are waiting for PwC to signal to us it is happy to sign off on the financial statements, and it has not done that yet.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

When were they due to be? Surely, the witnesses have a timeframe for PwC.

Mr. John Field

In recent years, we would generally complete that process with PwC within six months of the year end.

We had intended to complete that process by the end of March 2024, so it has been delayed since that date.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Is there any particular reason for that apart from the obvious one of why the witnesses are here today?

Mr. John Field

Yes, that is the primary reason. As I mentioned, all the field work is done and a draft set of financial statements is prepared. I think there is an acceptance that a final draft is fairly close, but matters connected with the reasons we are here today are the cause of the delay.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

From the perspective of the committee and on this point, I would argue that within five months of today, the witnesses might be back before us to discuss matters when the Comptroller and Auditor General gets the report done on those accounts given what we are discussing at length here today and just last May. I think we will need to look at those accounts in more detail.

Turning to the latter part of Professor Laffan's statement, I concur with the need for internal controls. Anybody who has followed this saga would be aware of it, to say the least. Reading the statement on the systems of internal control in the 2022 annual report last night, I was struck by the text under the "Risk Management" heading:

The University has a robust Risk Management Framework in place that is subject to regular review to ensure it reflects best practice. The Framework includes clearly defined process for the identification of new risks and process for evaluating and managing existing risks.

In the context of our meetings today and last May, is that really a reflective statement for the university given what we know now?

Professor Brigid Laffan

In my view, and I was not there when both those capital acquisitions were made, clearly the internal controls were not sufficient to ensure they did not happen. Therefore, no, it is not an accurate statement, but we have also worked very hard on risk management in the university over the last months. We have completely revamped the risk register and my colleagues can certainly give the Deputy the details on that.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Yes, please.

Mr. John Kelly

One of the things we have looked at very closely since this whole episode has been the system of risk management in the university. There has been a fundamental risk register in the university, as is required, for many years. It contained a large number of risks but, in our view, and having reflected on Rhebogue, it did not reflect the most significant and important risk to a university, which is its reputation as a credential institution. Our fundamental risk register now, therefore, looks at these matters very carefully.

In the case of Rhebogue, it is all very well to have a fundamental risk register, but when somebody is progressing a transaction and taking it through, that person must have at the forefront of their mind what are the risks in relation to the transaction for the university, bearing in mind the risks on the fundamental risk register. I think people do not sometimes make the connections between the actions they are taking at a point in time and what the fundamental risks are and this was possibly a factor in the Rhebogue situation.

In that situation, my recollection is that the risks were in relation to cohesion in the community where the Rhebogue development was located and how the people there would react to having students in a close-knit community. Of course, that was a risk, but there were other risks pertinent to that transaction, including, for example, risks in relation to planning. As the Deputy will know, the situation with the planning is before An Bord Pleanála. It is uncertain how that will go. It may be a case where the planning application may be approved but it may not, and that would leave the university in a difficult situation.

The issue internally was that there was no visibility by the decision-making bodies of those risks at all. A judgment call was made in relation to those risks and it was represented that, essentially, the planning was in order. There were other issues as well, as the Deputy will know, in relation to the valuation methodologies and they formed part of the risk framework in this transaction. Again, the governing authority did not have that information available to it at the point at which it made a decision.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I appreciate that and that is true. In terms of the reforms that have been done, therefore, and this may be a query for Professor Kilcommins to speak to, I know they are under way and the report from Deloitte is dealing with that aspect, if I am not mistaken. The report from Mazars, then, is dealing with the cultural aspect.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

Building on what my colleague said, the first thing to say around this context is that the Deputy is absolutely right. Deloitte had 35 recommendations. These are around additional controls and include the two recommendations made by the Comptroller and Auditor General. A series of other recommendations are being made by Mazars in terms of culture. Additionally, what is going to be really important is that it will not be appropriate for the university to offer assurances in future. There will be a need for independent verification. This is one of the things we have been working closely with the HEA on. It is about mapping those through. This is the beginning point in terms of those recommendations being an anchor point from which we can reset the university to ensure there is a much better standard of governance and management.

To reassure the Deputy as well, to some extent that process has already commenced and it has commenced through a reset of the executive. Some of the people, and the Chair and some of the other members will be aware of this point, who were raising concerns from the outset are now part of the executive team and are contributing in this context. The university itself, through the strategic governance committee, has been bringing issues to light and bringing forward its own recommendations. This includes, and this was an issue raised in this committee previously, the lack of a valuation. It was the strategic governance committee of the university that brought that in and is providing an evidence-based way in which we can go forward. We have a valuation and a whole series of recommendations from that committee too. The committee is composed of a group of colleagues, including from the professoriate in the college and people from across a variety of different units, such as quality, buildings and estates and finance, working together to try to put recommendations in place that will move us in the direction of good governance.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

In terms of the protected disclosures, because it was alluded to in the opening statements, how many have there been since 2018?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

In terms of the numbers, and my colleagues from the corporate section may be able to come in on this point too, I have a figure of five disclosures currently in train. My colleagues may be able to confirm it.

Mr. John Kelly

In the previous year, which we reported, there were five protected disclosures in UL. I am advised, and Deloitte has said this, that the number is significantly outside the norm for a university to have that number.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

In the last year.

Mr. John Kelly

Yes.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I am talking about the period from 2018.

Mr. John Kelly

I will have to get the figures for the Deputy, but there was a lower number in the preceding years. There was a disclosure-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

What I am really looking for is a collective figure. Mr. Kelly was right when he said that five such disclosures would be extremely high in any organisation, I presume, and that is a warning sign in itself. Prior to the year previous, since before all the purchasing and UL turned into some kind of property mogul, that was the problem. All these disclosures were being made. Who was the authorised officer to receive the protected disclosures?

Mr. John Kelly

It depends on the circumstances. The HR director is generally the first person who receives protected disclosures and then the policy provides for a disclosures group, which is, essentially, a group of people who review the disclosure and determine whether, prima facie, it is a matter requiring further consideration.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Has that structure been changed as well internally?

Mr. John Kelly

No, it has not been changed as yet. The structure-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Have the personnel on the committee to review protected disclosures been changed?

Mr. John Kelly

What would happen is that it would depend on the nature of the disclosure. The group is no longer set. Before, it was a set group of people, but in future, if the disclosure warrants a different composition, that is provided for. One of the recommendations we are going to confront is a complete change-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

To be clear, then, because we are talking about a change before all these reports, and I will come to the cost of those in a second, which will probably be more flabbergasting, in terms of the actual structure of UL today, if somebody has information or wishes to share instances of bad practice in the organisation, who will that person be disclosing the information to?

Mr. John Kelly

It would be disclosed to the head of HR in the first instance. It depends then, of course. If it were a matter within HR, for example, the disclosure would be made to somebody else and likewise with other sections. The process escalates right up to the president. In a situation where it was the president, it would escalate to the chancellor. There is, therefore, a process in this regard.

Our policy is probably within the norm for such policies, but-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

They failed.

Mr. John Kelly

Yes.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Are the same individuals who would have received protected disclosures in the past, and I am not saying they were the decision-makers on those disclosures, still in place today?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

It is not, strictly speaking, true to say that. I will give an example. I am the acting Accounting Officer now, so if a disclosure were received now, I would expect to be on that committee and to make decisions regarding it. Actually, in our executive meeting two weeks ago, we already had a discussion regarding this issue. One of the key things to say is that there has been a provision since 2014 for protected disclosures. They should be received when they relate to systemic risks. The institution-----

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I am limited on time. In the context where the same individuals would have received protected disclosures in the past, and, clearly, there was a systems failure somewhere along the line there, has this situation been reviewed in the short term to ensure it has improved?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

The example I wanted to give to the Deputy is that a consideration has already taken place around this matter at executive level. The position of the executive is that it supports the view taken by the Comptroller and Auditor General that our approach to protected disclosures has been overly narrow, overly legalistic and defensive. Going forward, it would be expected in a university, which is concerned with intellect, you would expect much more willingness to embrace ideas.

Even if a decision is upheld on a narrow basis, we should look more broadly at the controls and the extent to which they are operating.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

That is correct.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

That is something that is already being done.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Given the little discrepancy here, to say the least, I want to raise the issue of severance. The Comptroller and Auditor General's statement refers to severance, which the university claims is not a severance, yet in Professor Laffan's opening statement she refers to the former president resigning. When is a severance not a severance?

Professor Brigid Laffan

The matter referred to by the Comptroller and Auditor General does not relate to the resignation of the last president.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Okay.

Professor Brigid Laffan

It was the previous president.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

It was the president before the last one.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It was in the audit for 2019-2020.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Okay. The statement alluded to two severance packages.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

They went back as far as 2012. We initially looked at them when we looked at severance across the public sector, but we subsequently discovered that we had not been given the full facts in relation to the matter.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Is it correct that the information was not even given to the governing authority at the time?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

No. I am not sure of the detail that was given to the governing authority at that stage. It is because the explanations that were provided to us were not complete. When we discovered that, I reported separately on those two severances. That was about 2017 or 2018.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I thank Mr. McCarthy for the clarification. In terms of the various reports, am I correct in saying there was one from KPMG, one from Deloitte and one from Mazars? Is it correct that the KPMG report has been published? In terms of the cost of the reports – the HEA is involved and I will talk to it in a moment about that-----

Professor Shane Kilcommins

It is the Deloitte report that has been published in respect of the section 64 review. The KPMG one related to Dunnes Stores.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Okay. In terms of the Deloitte and Mazars reports, was the latter initiated by the HEA?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

That is correct.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Will Dr. Wall outline the cost and timeframe for it? How much are we looking at?

Dr. Alan Wall

The Mazars report, which we commissioned, is a deep dive into the culture of the university. The cost is about €25,000. We also commissioned the deep dive into the protected disclosures policies and activities of the university, so we are paying for that as well. We are also going back to look at capital expenditure over the past 15 years. There are approximately 1,300 documents to be reviewed. The cost of those three reports together is approximately €100,000.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I wish to ask about the timeframe for those reports to be finalised. From the information supplied, the HEA provided about 50% of the funding to UL. We must ensure we have a better culture. I hear what the chancellor says, that there will be a greater involvement from the HEA, which, if the witnesses recall, is one of the criticisms I made the last time we met. It is important there is better oversight in the future. When are the HEA reports due to be completed?

Dr. Alan Wall

I understand the question, but if I can, I will take time to answer it. As the Deputy is aware, what we have done is we commissioned the section 64 report. We have been back and forth with the university over the past six months on that. We have made two site visits. We commissioned the flanking reports on the capital, the culture, and the protected disclosures. We are carrying out reviews ourselves on the valuations. All of those will come to a point in the next week or two, after which I will make a determination under the Act. I cannot determine what I am going to decide because I am told I cannot do that, but it is likely that some sort of plan will be drawn up. We will get that independently verified for the first time.

I will just go back if I might, because what the Deputy said to me the last time landed very heavily-----

An Cathaoirleach

Did Dr. Wall say it is likely that a plan will be drawn up?

Dr. Alan Wall

A recovery plan will be put in place with very serious key performance indicators. I was reminded after we spoke the last time that, in 2016, the HEA did carry out a culture review of UL.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

It did. Okay.

Dr. Alan Wall

The HEA was told by UL that it rejected the report entirely and that it must be withdrawn. Subsequent work with the Attorney General concluded that we did not have the powers to review. The powers we have now since the end of 2022 are being used and that is making a great difference.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I thank Dr. Wall.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Brady is next.

Deputy John Brady

I welcome all the witnesses who are before us again this morning. It is very difficult to imagine a more damning assessment by the Comptroller and Auditor General. The report sets out in stark detail what can only be described as a damning indictment of the financial practices at UL. The Chair went through some of them. There is significant evidence of loss in terms of value for money. No evidence regarding valuation reports was submitted to the governing authority. There was a bias in favour of the acquisition on unfavourable terms. There was a failure to comply with the principles of the public spending code. There were also incomplete contracts. Do the witnesses agree with the assessment that it is a damning indictment of the University of Limerick?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

Yes.

Deputy John Brady

I have concerns about something that was drawn to my attention. I refer specifically to the upgrade to the student information portal at the university. What is the name of that portal?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

The name of the student records system in the university is the SITS system. It has been in place since about 1998.

Deputy John Brady

Are there plans in place to upgrade the system?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

Two reports were issued in respect of the student records system, one in 2005, the Gartner report, and another in 2015, the Deloitte report. Ninety recommendations were made in the Deloitte report in respect of the system, which needed to be upgraded and reformed. Since then, the university has been working to complete those recommendations.

Deputy John Brady

In 2015, approval was sought and given to upgrade the student portal system. What was the anticipated cost for the upgrade of the system?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

I do not know what amount was approved at the time, but what we spent in total on the system was €8.7 million.

Deputy John Brady

Contracts were signed in 2015 or whenever. I assume discussions on the approval were sought and it was obtained. How much was approved for the upgrade of the system?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

Approvals were given at the outset by the governing authority for the finance, human resources and asset management. That was in 2015. Approvals were again sought in 2020.

Deputy John Brady

What was the amount of the approvals sought in 2015?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

I will check that with the acting chief finance and performance officer.

Mr. John Field

The original approval was for approximately €3 million initially.

Deputy John Brady

Was the sum of €3 million sought and approved for the full upgrade of the student records system?

Mr. John Field

No, there were a number of phases to the project. It was not just a single project to commence at one point in time and end at another point in time. The project involved what is called a tactical stabilisation of the system. The Deloitte report, which the acting president referenced-----

Deputy John Brady

It was €3 million for that phase. In 2020, further funding was sought and approved. What was the total?

Mr. John Field

The funding in 2020 was for an additional €3.6 million, and then there were further approvals within the budget process in 2022-2023 of €1.5 million and in 2023-2024 of €1.9 million.

Deputy John Brady

What is the total expenditure?

Mr. John Field

The total approvals are just under €10 million and the spend to date, as the acting president indicated, is €8.7 million.

Deputy John Brady

Was the cost of the student portal €10 million?

Mr. John Field

No. The stabilisation of the project involved a number of subprojects, which involved reforming several aspects of the operation of the system, including the way it treats the academic model and progression, how it manages records and access to the system. We commenced the project-----

Deputy John Brady

The cost was nearly €10 million. How much has been spent to date?

Mr. John Field

The spend to date is €8.7 million.

Deputy John Brady

Have any concerns been expressed about the spending of that sum?

Have any protected disclosures been made about the manner in which funding was sought, approved and spent?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

A protected disclosure was made in relation to it. I think it was originally made in 2016. I will pass over to the corporate secretary on that.

Mr. John Kelly

A disclosure was made in relation to this in 2016. To my understanding, the issue was not so much about the financial cost but the stability of the student records system. I am not an expert on records but my understanding is that UL had a number of progression rules, which are essentially a system of credits by which you determine whether a student can graduate from one year to the next.

Deputy John Brady

So that protected disclosure was looked at and dealt with.

Mr. John Kelly

That disclosure was not looked at and not well handled. There was a further follow-up on that by the same individual who made the disclosure, which concluded last year. Many of the issues relating to the student record system were not upheld. A feature of what was discussed today was that the manner in which the disclosure was dealt with and the manner in which the individual who made the disclosure was dealt with was not well handled by the university.

Deputy John Brady

It was not well handled. It was not dealt with from 2016 to 2020.

Mr. John Kelly

That is correct.

Deputy John Brady

Have any external auditors been asked to look at the expenditure on this student portal?

Mr. John Kelly

Not that I am aware of, but if I could make one point on student records, it is the most important records system that a university can have.

Deputy John Brady

Have any external auditors such as Deloitte-----

Mr. John Kelly

I do not believe so.

Deputy John Brady

No report has been commissioned to look at the expenditure on this student portal?

Mr. John Kelly

I do not believe so. Every university spends substantially on its student records system. Depending on where it is in the life cycle of the student records system, it could be in a situation where it is looking for a new system, which is €20 million to €30 million. It is not atypical for a university to spend €1 million or €2 million annually to maintain its records. There is no more important records system.

Deputy John Brady

What stage is the portal at? Is it 100% complete? Is that the total expenditure on the portal at this point? Where are we in the process?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

I can come in on that. Mr. Kelly has updated the Deputy on run rate. We are spending about 0.5% of our budget every year on the student records system, which is a critical system in the university. Both the Gartner report and the Deloitte report signpost that was underinvestment.

Deputy John Brady

I am not questioning the need for a portal or registration. I am specifically querying the cost, the procedures and the process around it. I ask again, what stage is the portal at? Is it 100% complete?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

It is not 100% complete; 73% of the-----

Deputy John Brady

It is 73% complete. How much will it cost to get it 100% complete?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

At this point in time, we are not sure on that.

Deputy John Brady

Professor Kilcommins is not sure.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

The reason-----

Deputy John Brady

Professor Kilcommins is not sure. A process was embarked on in 2015. It went from €3 million and increased annually. A total of €8.7 million has been spent, €10 million has been approved, it is only 73% complete, and Professor Kilcommins cannot tell us here today how much it will cost to complete the process.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

I can tell Deputy Brady exactly where it is at. There has been a governance framework around it since 2019. There is a subcommittee of the executive that drives information to the executive, to the subcommittee of the governing authority, and into the governing authority. To date, 30 reports have been generated. At all points, information has been provided on where this project is, the risks around it and the governance around it. We are trying to move to a more simplified and automated system. Our system was initially overly complex. This project was about driving that complexity down. The key point about the student records system is that through that governance framework, we saw that the number of scenarios being generated and the complexity was increasing. A decision has been made to pause, not because there is instability in the system, but because as we move to a new, industry-led system, we have to continue to ensure that stability. We are looking at it to see how-----

Deputy John Brady

I think it will not be lost on people, given all of the other controversies that UL has been embroiled in, the lack of due diligence and all of those issues that I touched on, including significant loss of money to the taxpayer, and all the issues highlighted in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, that Professor Kilcommins is saying he cannot put a final cost on something. That says to me that due diligence was not carried out at the outset. I have been told that it will ultimately cost between €20 million and €30 million to get a student portal system 100% in place. Are those figures accurate?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

To put a new system in place will cost €20 million to €30 million.

Deputy John Brady

How much will it cost to complete the process for this new student portal?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

At the moment, we have one project that is due to complete. As has been mentioned by Mr. Field, there are three phases in the project. We have one task to complete, to complete the recommendations of Deloitte. We have paused that at the moment because of the level of complexity. I assure the Deputy that there is a very tight governance framework. All the information has been provided about gates and risks associated with this process, but there is an issue at the moment. The Deputy will understand that the student records system is the most critical records system in the university.

Deputy John Brady

There is an issue, that Professor Kilcommins cannot put a final figure on a contract that was embarked on in 2015, with an initial cost of €2 million to €3 million. Now he is not denying that it could ultimately cost UL between €20 million and €30 million to put in place a student portal.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

I have not said it will cost-----

Deputy John Brady

Professor Kilcommins has not denied it.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

To put a new student records system in place-----

Deputy John Brady

Professor Kilcommins has not denied it. I will conclude on this. What is the anticipated final cost to put in place a student portal?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

To complete the current project to bring the system in line with the recommendations of Deloitte is not something we have a final cost for. It is not anticipated to be €20 million or €30 million.

Deputy John Brady

What is it anticipated to be?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

I do not have a figure for the Deputy on that. It would be incorrect of me to say that to him. I can say that it will be brought through the relevant governance processes and discussed in a way that reflects due diligence and we will be completely transparent in our approach.

Deputy John Brady

Is UL contractually obliged to follow through on that contract with the provider? Is there a contract with that provider to see that process complete?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

Everything has been procured. The student records system that we have at the moment has a provider in place.

Deputy John Brady

Is UL contractually obliged to see that process through with the provider?

An Cathaoirleach

There is a straightforward question. Is the University of Limerick bound by a contract that it has entered into?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

We are in a contract at the moment. There is a procurement process.

Mr. John Field

The project did not involve changing the system provider. It was work on the existing system, so the system provider has not changed.

An Cathaoirleach

So UL cannot bow out of the contract. Is that correct?

Mr. John Field

We have predominantly been spending the money on assistance through project management. I am not certain of the end date of the contract but it is due to end shortly and we are not committed to further expenditure.

Mr. John Kelly

The purpose of the contract was to support the tactical stabilisation that was discussed. The last phase of this was to move from quality credit average, QCA, to grade point average. The president, who is also the registrar, was concerned about that based on testing and that has been paused. At some point in the future, the university will have to ask itself whether it wants to migrate to a brand new system. At that point, there will be costs in that order. Every university is considering that, however. It depends on where you are in the life cycle of your system.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

To clarify that, the witnesses are saying this is a support project that is part of the annual operating costs of the university as opposed to a project that was set out that has now overrun?

Mr. John Kelly

Yes, that is correct. That is my understanding.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I will come to Professor Laffan. Of all the questions asked here today, I think she asked the best one, which was, despite the change in leadership, why the same mistakes were made on Rhebogue that were made in the previous transaction. I invite her to answer the question that she posed herself.

Professor Brigid Laffan

I would say that all the reports we now have before us show clearly that there were severe deficits in governance, underpinned by a culture where it was difficult to contest, to ask questions and to be heard, where people did their jobs the next tier down and raised issues both on planning and on cost. In my view, it was almost as if the system was designed to deliver a cost as opposed to what was value for money for the university.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Within that, the authority has primary responsibility.

The nature of an authority is not like a small board. How many members does the authority have?

Professor Brigid Laffan

There are 19.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

There is huge reliance on trust in the information put forward, because to manage what is essentially a chamber of 19 people is different to a board discussion involving a smaller number. The Dunnes Stores site was put on the agenda of the authority with some haste. What was proposed was approved and assurances were given. There was a belief that a valuation existed. I asked the previous chancellor if she believed the authority had been misled. Is it Professor Laffan's view that the authority was misled?

Professor Brigid Laffan

In my view, the authority did not get full information on all aspects of both those capital acquisitions. We have strengthened the audit and risk committee. We now have an excellent external chair of that committee. I will do one simple thing. No capital acquisition in the University of Limerick, on my watch, will ever be decided time one. It will come to the governing authority. We will check all the due diligence. It will go through all of the relevant committees, but I will still not sign up on it time one. I would require it to come back to a second meeting to give everyone-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Even if that resulted in additional costs for the university?

Professor Brigid Laffan

To be honest, you have to use judgment here. What we have to do is manage risk but also use good judgment.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

That is the fine line of governance. I will move on.

Professor Laffan stated that the full information was not presented. There were people responsible for presenting that information in respect of both projects. Some of them are with the university and some are no longer with it. As a result of her view and the various reports, has any disciplinary action been taken as a result of those presentations?

Professor Brigid Laffan

We are currently undergoing a disciplinary investigation, but I cannot discuss that. It would not be appropriate.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Is the disciplinary investigation a direct result of the transactions?

Professor Brigid Laffan

Yes.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

In pursuing that, does Professor Laffan believe any criminal offence was carried out?

Professor Brigid Laffan

I have no beliefs. My opinion does not really matter, but under the criminal justice legislation of 2011, I wrote to the Garda Síochána to say that given there was such a serious impairment, it was perhaps a matter for it to deal with. We are meeting representatives of the Garda Síochána next week.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

It is a matter for the Garda, so it is perhaps better to say no more.

Professor Brigid Laffan

It really is with the Garda Síochána, and we have to respect that.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

She suggested that despite the change of leadership, those were her words, mistakes continued to be made. The previous president remains with the university. Is that correct?

Professor Brigid Laffan

Yes. We entered into mediation with the former president. It was extremely important that we brought certainty to the leadership of the university. The previous president had lost the confidence of ten members of the executive. We would have had an unstable institution. My absolute commitment was to bring the unstable ship, the University of Limerick, to a safe harbour. Rather than a long-term investigation and litigation, a mediated outcome was, in my judgment, by far the best for the university.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

That was the calculation Professor Laffan made.

Professor Brigid Laffan

Yes.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

If that person continues in employment they are obviously employed under contract----

Professor Brigid Laffan

Under professoriate-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I want to return to Deputy Devlin's questions in order to parse the information a little. Did a resignation take place from the post and was a new contract created?

Professor Brigid Laffan

Yes.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Was there a financial settlement for that transition?

Professor Brigid Laffan

No. No severance. The university would not have been at liberty to pay severance. That would have been a decision for the Department, and no such request was made to the Department.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

They effectively transferred from one post to another or whatever-----

Professor Brigid Laffan

Under very different conditions.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

The disappointing part of all of this is the obvious enthusiasm when the proposal relating to the Dunnes Stores site came before the authority. I made the comparison with my own university, which is Dublin City University, DCU. There is huge pride in the area at the work and the outreach DCU does. There would be a major level of enthusiasm surrounding any new capital project. I asked if that enthusiasm clouded the judgment of the authority. At the time I was told that was not the case. The major disappointment is that neither inner-city site ultimately became available or was progressed. There is now an unfunded proposal sitting there. What are the plans for the site and, more importantly, for the university's operation in the city centre?

Professor Brigid Laffan

The university will embark on its next strategic plan, and we will obviously look carefully at all of the resources of the university and what should be done. On the city centre campus specifically, Professor Kilcommins will update the committee.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

The first thing to say is that the university always wanted to be in the city. You can see that from two previous strategic plans. You can see it from the capital development plan for the period 2014 to 2018. You can see it from the opera quarter development. The university to some extent existed in distant isolation out in the suburbs, and it was important that it be in the city. It always had an aspiration. There have obviously been difficulties with due diligence around the Dunnes Stores site. Where it is currently is that the university obtained a valuation in December 2023. There is a process whereby it is being looked at primarily by means of a business case in partnership with Limerick City Council. We are bringing it back into the university, so this is one of the things the chancellor spoke about in terms of-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Is there a solid proposal for that site at this point?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

No, there is not a solid proposal, but we-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

There is no identifiable source of funding.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

No, this has been flagged by the strategic governance committee and, more importantly, by the C and AG. The scalability, and given the fact that there was no-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Has an updated valuation been obtained?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

It was updated in December 2023 by the-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Has an updated valuation been obtained?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

Not yet. There has not been another valuation.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

When would it be expected that the next valuation would be obtained in respect of the site? Is there a routine process for valuing it?

Mr. John Kelly

It was valued at the behest of the strategic governance committee. That valuation is reflected in the draft impairment that is for consideration. The chief financial officer will speak about that.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Planning is a significant risk for Rhebogue. If planning permission is not granted or does not allow the university to proceed with the project as proposed, what is the proposal for the site?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

At the moment, we are waiting. That decision will not be made until-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I accept that. The question is what the proposal is.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

We accept the view that the information provided with regard to planning was simply not good enough.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

To be fair, my question was, should planning permission not be approved, what is the proposal or plan B?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

Plan B would be to seek retention in order that it can continue to be used for student accommodation. In the first instance, a submission has been made in respect of the properties in order that it can continue to be used for student accommodation. The argument that has been made is that we can distinguish on the basis of previous decisions made by An Bord Pleanála in 2016 and 2019.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

The current strategy is to push through and hope for the best.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

The Deputy has to understand that we accept that the due diligence was not done properly.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I accept that. What I am asking relates to decisions Professor Kilcommins is making. For the current plan, should planning permission not be approved, what is the proposal for the site?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

If that decision is not upheld and if we do not have accommodation for students there, then we will have to review the matter and bring it back into building and estates and consider the next options. The expectation would be-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

There is no contingency plan in place at this moment.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

The consideration would be that we would seek retention.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I argue that hoping you will be successful is not a contingency plan.

Mr. John Kelly

I will just clarify for the Deputy that the houses continue to be used as student accommodation. We intend to work with the local authority through the retention process.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

The witnesses have to accept that if the planning process in its entirety is exhausted and if permission is not granted, there will be a significant threat to an asset of the university. I was impressed by Mr. Kelly's presentation on risk. I am highlighting a current risk that the witnesses do not appear to have taken on board. I ask them to do that.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I was a member of the previous iteration of this committee. Representatives from the University of Limerick were before us repeatedly.

Here we go again. It is a case of "fool me once". We get statements of contrition but I want to see evidence of change.

I think it was at the last meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts that we dealt with the issue of the Dunnes Stores site. The university bought the building but now we know that it does not have the money to develop it. Not only did the university overpay for the wrong site and failed to get a valuation, but now it does not have the money to develop it. I have a rough idea how much houses cost where I live, as most people do. There has been a lack of critical thinking among people. I can understand people not understanding the cost of commercial buildings, but the average person understands the cost of housing in their own area. Where was the critical thinking on this? It is just incredible.

Professor Laffan said in her opening statement that "Rhebogue was placed on our meeting agenda at my second meeting as chair" of the governing authority. In what context was it placed on the agenda?

Professor Brigid Laffan

It was placed on the agenda in the context that there may be a stamp duty liability that had not been foreseen. Due to the controversy around the KPMG report on the Dunnes Stores transaction, I referred that issue immediately to the audit and risk committee, which did an excellent job gathering material. Then we had the Niamh O'Donoghue report. So we did not allow Rhebogue to fester at all.

The Deputy is absolutely right about the cost of housing. I had never heard of Rhebogue before but I insisted on being driven to see the said houses. I am not a property valuer and I do not know much about property but I knew immediately, with no specialist expertise whatsoever, that the concern that we had overpaid was probably correct. It is also fair to say that the then chief finance officer was given a list of property prices in the Rhebogue area at the time and chose not to do anything about it.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Okay.

Professor Brigid Laffan

In my view, Rhebogue emerged from a situation where there was a determination to deliver a price for those 20 houses. The way in which it was inflated was the valuation based on cost per bed.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Essentially, the narrative was to shoehorn this and support the purchase.

Professor Brigid Laffan

I was not there, so I am looking at it from a distance. When I was asked whether the governing authority was misled, my view was that the presentation to the governing authority was giving the best possible spin.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes. Who wrote the briefing document?

Professor Brigid Laffan

To my knowledge, it would have been the chief commercial officer and the chief finance and performance officer, but because I was not there-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is that one and the same person?

Professor Brigid Laffan

No, they are two-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Two people.

Professor Brigid Laffan

I ask my colleagues to clarify if that is an accurate statement.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

Yes, it is right. The two executive sponsors of the project were the chief financial officer and the chief commercial officer.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Were those two people involved in the Dunnes Stores transaction?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

No.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

There was no crossover. Are those people still working in the university?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

So, Deputy Murphy, the chancellor has already spoken. There are processes in place. The chief financial and performance officer is on sick leave.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

How long are they on sick leave?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

He has been on sick leave since June 2023.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

So around the time of-----

Professor Brigid Laffan

It is actually totally unrelated.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The other person-----

Professor Brigid Laffan

The other person is on leave from the university pending a disciplinary investigation.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is that paid leave?

Professor Brigid Laffan

Yes, as per the norm.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I want to ask about the warning letter that came from the planning authority. Where is that at?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

This has already been referred to by Deputy McAuliffe.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

That letter came in on 13 December and that was then referred to An Bord Pleanála. We will have a decision on that by 23 December.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Right. A warning letter has been referred to. In what context was it referred to?.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

It was referred on the basis of an unauthorised use.

Mr. John Kelly

It was an unauthorised development. Limerick City and County Council was the author of that letter. Submissions were made at that point. Then, as I understand it, Limerick City and County Council referred the matter to An Bord Pleanála for a determination. Submissions have been made by the university in relation to that. We got a letter about six weeks ago saying that it would not be determined in accordance with the expected timeframe but we would have an answer on or before 23 December of this year.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Was planning advice taken after the warning letter was issued?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

Yes.

Mr. John Kelly

Yes, for the purpose of preparing a submission. Yes, to An Bord Pleanála.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What did that planning advice indicate?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

The submission that was made and the advice that was indicated was that the student accommodation itself was not restricted in terms of occupancy. The argument was that it could be distinguished from two previous decisions that were made, and that it was not restricted use to student accommodation on its own. The key point that was being made is that many students live in residences that are not student accommodation alone.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I know.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

That was the argument.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

As my constituency of Kildare North includes Maynooth, I know full well that this can happen. They are not bought specifically where a development plan provides zoning for residential and it becomes almost semi-commercial because there is a difference. You are talking about a block as opposed to being dotted around. This was to be specific student accommodation.

My next questions are for Dr. Wall of the HEA. How many section 64 reviews is the HEA currently dealing with?

Dr. Alan Wall

There are three at the moment.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Who are they?

Dr. Alan Wall

They are TU Dublin, UCC and this one here in UL.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

How unusual is it? Are these recent? Are they routine?

Dr. Alan Wall

I have only had the power to do a section 64 review since the end of 2022, so it is all new to us. What we are seeing in UL is nothing like we are seeing at the other two. In the other two, there is an accounting issue and an information issue inside the university. The UL case has longer legs. As we are going, we are developing the protocols for doing this work. In this case, we kicked off the section 64 review in March. We went down to the university to conduct interviews right across the university. We spoke at length to staff, students, administrators, academics and the governing authority. On the basis of that, we redrafted our terms of reference to include matters like a review of the advices that were given, a deep dive into the culture of the university as part of the section 64 review, and an examination of subsidiaries. That extended beyond Rhebogue and Dunnes Stores. In parallel with that, we commissioned other reports on the protected disclosures. The barrister will report to us in the next couple of weeks on how UL handled the protected disclosures. There is also a major deep dive by Mazars into the culture of the university. The HEA tried to do this in 2016 but did not get a chance to complete it. That report will come to us as well. We are looking back over 15 years of capital expenditure. We are fully using our powers to get as big a picture as we can.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It is very big.

Dr. Alan Wall

It is huge. It is probably the biggest deep dive of a university in the history of the State.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What kind of resources is the HEA investing in that?

Dr. Alan Wall

It is resource-heavy for us. The Department-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

How many people are involved?

Dr. Alan Wall

I have a key team of eight or nine people dealing with it, but they are also dealing with the other two reviews as well as normal HEA business. As the Deputy can imagine, we are gearing up for a new Act, so we are trying to resource ourselves to deal with all kinds of work. We are in contact with the Department, which has been very good about resourcing us in this regard.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Obviously, this is exceptional.

Dr. Alan Wall

I find it exceptional, yes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It reflects a litany of issues that have arisen over the years as opposed to just the two large property transactions.

Dr. Alan Wall

I agree. The provost and the chancellor have indicated the same. We have had two site visits. Following our conversations with people on the ground, we found that we had to broaden the review to encompass the issue of the culture in UL. Strictly speaking, I am not supposed to talk about what I will do next, but I will have all of the reports before me in the coming weeks and I will make a determination. The details will first have to be independently verified. I was given assertions about Dunnes Stores on which I relied. I cannot do that again. The university executive, with which we work closely, agrees that culture is the issue that needs to be addressed.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Essentially, some of us had concerns about some of the engagement we had with people who had made protected disclosures. The attitude to the protected disclosures told us something about a culture of denial, of circling the wagons and of not seeing protected disclosures as beneficial in terms of exposing issues of concern. Obviously this is why there is a focus of attention on the cultural change and protected disclosures. Do either of the representatives from the university want to comment further on protected disclosures and how quickly that culture can change?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

I believe there has been a very legal defensive approach taken to it. We should have been looking at a thematic overview as to the issues that are arising and the type of controls that are put in place in a university. That is what one would expect but that is what we did not see. We do expect that this will change now very quickly. I mentioned to Deputy Devlin at the outset that we are already considering this at executive level. We cannot take a legal approach to this. Deloitte has already mentioned this as well and we will be actioning it.

Professor Brigid Laffan

It is not just protected disclosures in cultural terms. In the university it must be possible to question and have a deliberation on what is the best decision to make, whereas there almost was a closing down of questioning. If someone raised an issue about something they were very easily segued into being a problem or a troublemaker. That is a very unhealthy culture in any organisation and it has to stop.

An Cathaoirleach

I now invite Deputy Verona Murphy who will have ten minutes, following which we will break briefly.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I thank the Cathaoirleach. I have been listening. How long has Professor Laffan been in her position?

Professor Brigid Laffan

Not even a year but it seems like a decade.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Had the Professor been on the governing authority previously?

Professor Brigid Laffan

No. I served on the governing authority of UCD when I was a professor in UCD, but never in Limerick.

Deputy Verona Murphy

So Professor Laffan was in no position to have questioned any of this prior to her appointment.

Professor Brigid Laffan

Absolutely not.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I thank Professor Laffan. In his response to Deputy Murphy, Dr. Wall said he had received information relating to the Dunnes Stores site that he relied upon. That transpired to be what?

Dr. Alan Wall

Unreliable. If the Deputy will indulge me for a minute, it does go to the difference between having the statutory powers we have now and the ones we did not. In 2019, as the Dunnes Stores thing was transpiring, the Attorney General had told the HEA that it could not actually do reviews and that it had no powers to do that.

Deputy Verona Murphy

When Dr. Wall says reviews-----

Dr. Alan Wall

For example, we are doing section 64 now but we are also kicking off the protected disclosures review and the culture review-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Yes, but if the chancellor or the university president told Dr. Wall the site would cost €10 million, is Dr. Wall saying a review could not be undertaken, as in one could not even inquire as to whether that was the price?

Dr. Alan Wall

I will give the Deputy an example. We did carry out a review of culture in 2016 and it was rejected by the university, which demanded that we withdraw it. That was the nature of the relationship.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Who gave Dr. Wall the information?

Dr. Alan Wall

Sorry, in-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

The information Dr. Wall said was unreliable. Who gave it to him?

Dr. Alan Wall

I will just give some background. We had to construct a system because we did not have the powers. We relied on the chancellor, the president and the head of the audit committee to give us undertakings. We had three-monthly meetings with the provost at the time. With senior officials in there we got an undertaking. The HEA chair met with the president and the chair of UL. They gave us undertakings at that point. We set up a system that went from November and-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Hold on, an undertaking is not unreliable; it either happens or it does not

Dr. Alan Wall

They gave us an undertaking. They told us that the policies, the procedures and the public spending code were all being observed in the light of their experiences with Dunnes and the KPMG report, and that they had implemented the-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Did the HEA expect that the valuations had been-----

Dr. Alan Wall

We were not aware of it at the time but after the fact we would have expected - this is why we are in section 64 - that any kind of new involvement with capital or buying any properties would, based on those assurances, involve due diligence and talking to the planning authority and all that. That is what we expected. Why we went into the-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

We are well aware of that and it has been thrashed out, but was the HEA misled in that regard?

Dr. Alan Wall

I do not know that I was misled. Somebody was misleading. I do not think people were giving us assurances that they did not believe happened but, a bit like what happened to the governing authority, we were being-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

They were giving the HEA assurances - Dr. Wall is saying they were undertakings - so clearly they had to either be aware or they were misleading the HEA.

Dr. Alan Wall

I will not make a judgment on that but I will tell the Deputy what we did next. Having the powers, we found out that Rhebogue had a planning issue. We knew the procedures could not be in place and that is why the section 64 kicked off.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Okay. It is very much the case that Rhebogue is the second incident. The gate was being closed after the horse had bolted. That is as much down to how the Department proceeds as the college itself, and the governance and the authority. If we got to Rhebogue, there was a problem. I am not blaming anybody. I am pointing out facts. If Dr. Wall is not prepared to say the HEA was actually misled and given undertakings that clearly could not have been anything-----

Dr. Alan Wall

I accept that.

Deputy Verona Murphy

-----other than to mislead, then the reality is that no action was taken and hence we got to the Rhebogue situation. There is culpability all around here. It is a ridiculous scenario and it is getting worse instead of better. Having listened to the discussion this morning, I am concerned about the €10 million that has been spent on the student portal. I am concerned because I am getting reports that the university has upwards of 18,000 students, and clearly many of them know who is on the public accounts committee, and the information I have is that good money is being thrown after bad. Having spent €10 million, UL may well end up having to spend €20 million or €30 million to redo the whole portal. I am asking a very straight question. Does the university know if it has had value for money and that the portal is where it wants it to be? I understand it is a very important part of the university's operational infrastructure but was it clear from the outset that it could not be fixed and it needed to be completely overhauled at the cost of €30 million? Is the university going to spend €30 million now having already spent €10 million? Professor Kilcommins should bear in mind that he will be here again at this time next year, and maybe before then.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

I absolutely know that I will be here again to respond to members. I am not going to mislead the Deputy in any way. I can say that the student records system has been in a very tight governance framework. We have been looking to implement the recommendations that were made in 2015. As we have mapped through those, we have put approximately 30 reports into the audit and risk committee, flagging where we are at, the milestones reached and risks. There is complexity in the system, more complexity than we would like.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Is that complexity only being recognised having spent €10 million?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

No. The complexity has been recognised for a long time.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Is the university where it wants to be?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

No, we are not where we want to be. If we were where we want to be, we would have a system that is fully automated and working to industry norms in terms of the student records system. We are not there.

Deputy Verona Murphy

How many recommendations were in the report?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

There were 90 recommendations.

Deputy Verona Murphy

There were 90, and the university has 30 implemented.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

We have 73% implemented. We would have got to completion if we were able to move to this new industry standard GPA but, given the level of scenario testing and the level of complexity, I made a decision to pause. It came from our testing team because of the level of scenarios that were being generated. We need to look at it to see what is the next best decision for the university.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That decision could be to just scrap what has been done and start again.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

No, the decision will never be to scrap what we have done. Many of the recommendations we have implemented have enhanced our practices around registration, module enhancements-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Regardless, I am asking whether there is a possibility that when the university pauses and does a review, it may have to spend the €20 million or €30 million.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

A recommendation of the strategic governance committee is that we will ultimately move, as all student records systems are having to do, to the cloud eventually. We will have to spend more money but at the moment-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

I accept that it is ongoing and the university will be spending money on stuff like that but at this point does the university believe it got value for money for its €10 million spend?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

I believe the money spent to date was necessary in light of the Deloitte report-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

That was not the question. Has the university got value for money?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

I have no reason to believe we have not received value for money.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That means the university is where it would like to be having spent the €10 million.

Mr. John Field

Perhaps I will clarify. As explained earlier to Deputy Brady, there are a number of phases to the project. The spend to date is approximately €8.7 million. Of that €8.7 million, approximately €5 million of the spend is on projects that are completed, live and in line with our expectations.

I would suggest to the Deputy that that indicates value for money on that spend.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is fine. That is the question being asked.

Mr. John Field

There is a portion of the remaining spend which was part of a phase to implement a new progression model within the system. It was to move from what we call QCA to a grade-point average system. That portion of the project is the most recent piece that has been paused, as the acting president said. That has been-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Clearly there are problems.

Mr. John Field

That is running behind time and is overbudget. Approximately €3 million was spent on that and it is now paused and not going live. The system was due to go live for this academic year. We will have to re-evaluate.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Okay but there-----

Mr. John Field

There may be a portion of that €3 million-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

The real question is whether there is proper oversight of the spending. I heard what Mr. Field said previously. I am an opposition member. Government spending appears to be out of control and nobody seems to care. That is the public sentiment. I do not want the University of Limerick and its students coming to me thinking the Government is spending frivolously, believing that if has it, so it can spend it.

I will move on. I appreciate Mr. Kelly is doing this but he should appreciate that it is going to come up next year no matter who is sitting here. That is the point.

It was said that all protected disclosures are being dealt with. Is the culture now one that promotes openness and transparency? Somebody told me that they made a protected disclosure 15 months ago, which has not been dealt with. He has not been treated very well. I realise that neither Professor Laffan nor Professor Kilcommins were in their positions at the time, but my point is that not everything they have points to what I have been told. It is easy to talk but it is clearly not the feeling on the ground.

Professor Brigid Laffan

The Deputy should remember that the community is a very large one. There is not a feeling-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

If there are five disclosures this year, one is dealing with five people. How many were there in 2023?

Professor Brigid Laffan

There were five.

Deputy Verona Murphy

In 2023? I thought there were five in 2024.

Professor Brigid Laffan

No, it was-----

Mr. John Kelly

There have been five PDs since 2021. I have been informed-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Since 2021?

Mr. John Kelly

Yes and 13 since 2018, up to the current date.

Deputy Verona Murphy

There have been five since 2021. This individual made his complaint 15 months ago and he is telling me it has not been dealt with and it has not been progressed. He has not been treated very well. That is contrary to everything the witnesses are telling us. I ask them to address it. I am saying no more; it is a protected disclosure. However, talk is cheap. Unless what the witnesses are saying is happening on the ground, there is no point in being here today. Again, it will be addressed in the same way next year.

I have one quick question.

An Cathaoirleach

The Deputy may ask it briefly.

Deputy Verona Murphy

What exactly is the new position that the ex-president has taken up?

Professor Brigid Laffan

It is a professorship.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Of what?

Professor Brigid Laffan

Of visual arts.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I am reliably informed there are no visual arts courses in UL. Is that correct?

Professor Brigid Laffan

Within the arts faculty there are performing arts. The former president is on sabbatical this year. It is not all research.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is not the question. The question is whether it is correct that she is the professor of visual arts but that there are no visual arts courses run by the University of Limerick. Is that correct? It is a binary question.

Professor Brigid Laffan

No, there is no programme.

Deputy Verona Murphy

We have a professor of visual arts and no programme for her to engage with.

An Cathaoirleach

The meeting is suspended for ten minutes. We will resume in ten minutes sharp.

Sitting suspended at 11.04 a.m. and resumed at 11.14 a.m.

An Cathaoirleach

The next member to speak is Deputy Ó Cathasaigh. He has ten minutes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Before I go into questioning, it occurs to me that there is not an answer to this question that could be produced for the committee on the amount of money this governance issue is going to cost the taxpayer. We have it in black and white in terms of what it is costing us in impairments and so on, but I would love to know how much it cost to produce the special report for the C and AG. I have been part of three committee sessions on this issue. A huge amount of back room work goes into that by the secretariat of the committee as well all the work we did not get to because we were dealing with this. Then, when we look at section 64, Dr. Wall is telling us about the considerable resource the Higher Education Authority, HEA, is putting into it. The actual amount of money the taxpayer is putting into this issue and the lack of governance at University of Limerick, UL, is astonishing. We are not going to get to the bottom of that. We will not get a full figure for that, but I want to outline that before I began the questioning.

I will pick up where Deputy Verona Murphy left off. I read section 1.5 of Professor Laffan's opening statement in which she talked about how the president has resigned. Being honest, it is a startling omission not to mention that she resigned as president but still remains within the university. Can Professor Laffan tell me what grade?

Professor Brigid Laffan

That was provided to the committee in the background documentation for the meeting. One also has to be mindful of the contracts that individuals have with the university. The former president was hired as provost and professor of visual culture. The two contracts allowed for step-down in terms of a professorial position in the event that her term as president ended before retirement age.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Is she a full professor or associate professor?

Professor Brigid Laffan

A full professor, because she was hired as a full professor.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Can Professor Laffan tell me at what point on the scale?

Professor Brigid Laffan

I know that our scale runs from about €130,000 per year to €173,000. Given her seniority, she would be at the top of that scale.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I think it is €175,000 since January 2024, if I am correct, and if people are on the same pay scale as Dublin City University, DCU, which is what I was looking up. Therefore, the step-down has been to €175,000 per year. Can Professor Laffan describe to me her duties?

Professor Brigid Laffan

Yes, indeed. She is a professor of visual culture. She is on sabbatical this year. It is the norm after a person has a senior position in the university to re-enter his or her research career and get a sabbatical, some of which is spent out of the country. That sabbatical year is funded from a person's salary. She will then return as professor of visual culture. It is also important to say that as professor of visual culture, she will not be short of things to do. There will be a programme of work. Both-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

She will be; there is no department of visual culture.

Professor Brigid Laffan

No, but remember that UL is actually very interdisciplinary, so to say there is no work is incorrect. I will also say, and this is important, that returning the university to stability was absolutely essential. We had a choice between a mediated outcome and what would have become lengthy, most likely litigious, processes, in which case the university could not proceed to prepare to hire another president and it is-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I can tell Professor Laffan that if people from any of the technological universities are watching this debate, who are killing themselves to get professorial roles in place, which Deputy Verona Murphy will know well about in the context of South East Technological University, SETU, it will hugely stick in their craw. I accept what Professor Laffan is saying, but it is very difficult to accept from a taxpayers' point of view that somebody who has been asked to step down - we are glad to note that she has recovered sufficiently from her illness - is now on sabbatical and is on €175,000.

Professor Brigid Laffan

These things are matters of judgment and matters of the stability of a very large and very important Irish institution with a very large budget. I think the Deputy would agree that it is important that we return this institution to stability and allow it to face its future - a future in which it can flourish. I fully accept what the Deputy has said, but this is a matter of judgment and a matter of what is in the best interests of the university at a point in time. There are no ideal outcomes for any institution when it finds itself in the trouble in which University of Limerick found itself.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I have reviewed both opening statements, and what I found difficult to accept was this idea that there was a level of benign incompetence that happened here and that we should accept that a bunch of bad decisions were made by people who were acting in good faith.

There was a deliberately manufactured sense of haste in both of these cases. They were brought to the governing authority with the idea that action must be taken immediately because the monorail is moving on if quick action is not taken. Have we asked and answered the basic question: qui bono? Who benefited from this? I find it difficult to accept that these were just bad decisions. Nothing I have seen in the opening statements begins to identify the motivating force behind this.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

The Deputy will understand that the Rhebogue transaction is under investigation so we cannot comment further on it.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

A recurring feature in Irish political life is that we get these things and then people sail away into the sunset and we do not actually see anyone held to account in any way, shape or form, which is very frustrating.

I want to ask Dr. Wall about section 64. I know he is in a peculiar position because he is expecting this process to come to a conclusion relatively soon and therefore he cannot speak to us too much more about it. Compared to the interactions previously when Dr. Wall did not have those statutory powers, has he identified a cultural shift in the organisation? Obviously, he arrived with more powers under the new statute. Did he find that he was dealing with a different institution in terms of its openness and its willingness to engage?

Dr. Alan Wall

In fairness to the institution, I did. There is a history of the HEA dealing with the institution, which predates my time there, where that would not have been the case and a more pugilistic approach would have been taken to any intervention by the HEA. There might have been a desire to obscure, to delay or in some way to derail any actions that the HEA was anxious to do. There was a quickness on the part of UL and other institutions to point out the legal deficits of any kind of approach the university was subject to. This has not been our experience. Our relationship has not just been one of swapping letters. We deliberately went to the campus and made ourselves available to anyone who wanted to speak to us. We got a very clear insight into the cultural issues that people are talking about.

Deputy Murphy has referred to the reasons I might have not to believe some of the things I am told in UL, given the previous experiences when I was told things that simply were not true. Over the past six months, my experience has been confidence building, as we have worked through this process. Let me say that it is a very invasive process, for the first time in the history of the State, but we are getting full co-operation from the university. There is a sense in the university that owning these issues is the way forward. This is an autonomous institution; it has a governing authority and has specific requirements in law under the Universities Act 1997 and under the spending code that it was not paying attention to. I think there is-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

How long does the HEA expect to be centrally involved in this?

Dr. Alan Wall

Three to five years is my guess, for what it is worth.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Okay. We have a long way to go with it. In his opening statement, the Comptroller and Auditor General identified some issues regarding calculation of remuneration for senior staff. Has this been resolved or is it a continuing practice? Has this issue been unpicked or do we still have this legacy?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

I can come in on that. The Comptroller and Auditor General is referring to a previous president's contract which did not include a notice provision. Every other contract in the university would always have had such a provision. It was very surprising that it was not included in that particular contract. This goes back to 2017 or 2018. Now, every contract in UL has a notice provision.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I am referring to the higher than normal awards of professional added years for professional purposes. Has this been addressed?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

It is my understanding that this has been addressed since 2018

Mr. John Field

My understanding is that the awarding of added years now requires the approval of the Department. After the publication of the report, a new process was put in place.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Do we have any legacy issues? Are payments still being made under the old system?

Mr. John Field

It was identified in the report that those years had been awarded. It is my understanding that the individual pension payments were not amended.

An Cathaoirleach

I want to go back to the issue of the former president, Professor Mey. Prior to that, when did Mr. Des Fitzgerald serve as president?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

He commenced his presidency in either 2017 or 2018.

An Cathaoirleach

When did it finish?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

It finished in 2020.

An Cathaoirleach

Enter Professor Mey. She was the president up to 12 months ago when you took over as acting president. Is that correct?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

I took over in September.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask Professor Kilcommins to outline to me Professor Mey's status at the moment. What position is she in at the moment? Is she on leave?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

She is a professor of visual culture.

An Cathaoirleach

There is a mediated process. Is she on leave of some sort or other?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

She is on sabbatical leave at the moment.

An Cathaoirleach

Sabbatical leave, okay. That is 12 months. Is that correct?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. We have established that at this time there is no course in the position that she is being re-engaged for. Is that correct?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

That is correct. There is no course in visual culture.

An Cathaoirleach

There is a salary of €175,000, which is very unusual. Who decided on that figure?

Professor Brigid Laffan

She was actually given the title of professor of visual culture when she was hired by the university as provost.

An Cathaoirleach

Is there somebody else on some kind of leave? Is the former commercial officer on some type of leave?

Professor Brigid Laffan

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

What kind of leave?

Professor Brigid Laffan

Leave pending-----

Mr. John Kelly

Leave pending an investigation.

An Cathaoirleach

Is it a criminal investigation?

Mr. John Kelly

It is an internal investigation.

An Cathaoirleach

Is it paid leave?

Mr. John Kelly

Yes, as would be normal.

An Cathaoirleach

Professor Mey is on a sabbatical. Who decided this? Was it the whole management team?

Professor Brigid Laffan

No, it was decided in a process of mediation involving legal advice on both sides.

An Cathaoirleach

Confidential?

Professor Brigid Laffan

As usual in mediation, there is a confidentiality clause in the agreement.

An Cathaoirleach

I am aware of that. This would have had to come back to the university for it to accept the outcome of the mediation. Somebody had to rubber-stamp this. For the mediation process I presume that an external body was hired to do it. Is that correct?

Professor Brigid Laffan

I was present, along with the head of HR, throughout the three days of the mediation.

An Cathaoirleach

Then it would have had to come back to be signed off on by the management team. Is that correct?

Professor Brigid Laffan

In this instance, it was myself and the head of HR because the governing authority set up a subcommittee to deal with the HR issues arising from Rhebogue. I am chair of that committee.

An Cathaoirleach

How long is left on her contract?

Professor Brigid Laffan

As of 1 September of this year, she has five years left, which does not bring her to full retirement age.

An Cathaoirleach

We have a professor earning €175,000 for a job that does not exist. We have a site in the middle of Limerick which was bought for €5 million over its valuation. It is not in use and there is no plan or finance for it, so it sits there like a white elephant. In Rhebogue, 3 km from the university, we have 20 houses that were bought for well in excess of double the market value of houses in the area. We could go on and on.

I would like to come back to one of the things that surprises me with regard to the Rhebogue houses. I find it hard to get my head around the fact that this happened after all of the problems with curtains, sheets and crazy ideas about buying a house here in Dublin, and after we went through everything with the Dunnes Stores transaction. You would say to yourself that procedures must now be put in place and people have to get their act together.

It sounds very complicated, and Deputy Ó Cathasaigh has outlined all of the various reports, but it is very straightforward to me. Of course, these reports had to be done but, as a layperson, I know that you check the stamp duty and the planning permission when buying or selling property. It is very basic. Any Joe or Mary Soap would know that, as would their solicitor. There is mention of deficient record-keeping, tax implications and the absence of a valuation. As I said the last day UL was in here, there is something I cannot get my head around as regards Rhebogue. If I was going to buy a house somewhere, I would go on Daft.ie or some other website or I would look in the windows of local auctioneers to see what houses were making in that area. We are buried in reports here. We accept that they were necessary but they work out as being expensive. These reports seek to find out why these basics were not adhered to. Mr. Kelly is the corporate secretary.

Mr. John Kelly

That is correct.

An Cathaoirleach

How long has been in that position?

Mr. John Kelly

It has been just over two years.

An Cathaoirleach

Why was the record-keeping deficient?

Mr. John Kelly

The Comptroller and Auditor General made reference to this. He said that the purchase price of the property was not recorded in the minutes of the meeting at which this was approved. I accept that criticism on my part. The minutes referred to a presentation where the purchase price was outlined but that price should have been included within the minutes. I take responsibility for that.

An Cathaoirleach

That is one of the issues, is it not? This is the type of stuff that has led us to where we are now. It seems we will just forget about the public spending code and that it does not matter. It was decided to work out how many beds you can get into a house and price on that basis. If we can put four students in a house, that works out at more than €130,000 each. It was decided to pay that price for it. The public spending code is clear that you buy at the lowest price possible, just as everybody else would. The fact is that it was just swept to one side and the prices were jacked up. Was Mr. Kelly aware of the lease agreement with the developer, which was worth more than €1 million for the first number of years?

Mr. John Kelly

I started in the university literally as the transaction was going through.

An Cathaoirleach

Did Mr. Kelly become aware of it?

Mr. John Kelly

It was noted in the presentation that there was a rental agreement but, when the contract was drawn up, there was, in fact, no rental agreement. There was a capitalisation of the moneys reported as rent. That is the reason there was an extra €1 million on the contract as opposed to the €10.9 million that was put forward.

An Cathaoirleach

Was that a red flag for Mr. Kelly?

Mr. John Kelly

At the time, it was not because I understood it to be a rental agreement as opposed to a capitalisation. The contract-----

An Cathaoirleach

Was the price a red flag?

Mr. John Kelly

If the Cathaoirleach recalls, there was a subsequent amendment to the contract that did not go through any process or governing authority. It was meant to be paid for in tranches. It was ultimately decided to revise the contract to pay it all up front in exchange for a discount on the price. There was talk about a rental agreement in that regard. As I have said, that sum was capitalised. I did not know that.

An Cathaoirleach

On the briefing that went to the governing authority, as anybody who has ever sat on a board will know, decisions are as good as the information presented to the board. In this case, the board is the governing authority. It is the supreme authority. It is chaired by Professor Laffan at the university. The decisions that are made by a board are only as good as the information provided to it but the timing is also crucial. What role, if any, did Mr. Kelly have in that briefing? Was he aware of it? Did he see it?

Mr. John Kelly

The briefing was provided to us on a bank holiday weekend, as the Cathaoirleach may recall. The meeting took place on 3 August, the Tuesday following the bank holiday. The papers were provided to us the weekend before that. That was the first I saw of those papers.

An Cathaoirleach

Was that not enough for Mr. Kelly to say, "Hold on a second; this is deficient?"

Mr. John Kelly

It went to a meeting of the executive committee.

An Cathaoirleach

What was in the briefing that went to the governing authority was a load of cock and bull, was it not?

Mr. John Kelly

After the fact, that would be a fair characterisation but, as has been noted, it was a presentation to give the appearance of due diligence being followed. Assurances were given in that presentation that I did not know were factually incorrect until after the fact. For example, it was indicated that it had the support of the buildings and estates section and that the university's solicitor favoured the transaction.

An Cathaoirleach

It does not matter if God Almighty was in favour of it. Did the price and everything else not jump off the page at Mr. Kelly? He is an experienced company secretary. Is he telling me that he did not see deficiencies in this document before it went to the governing authority?

Mr. John Kelly

It was presented by the chief financial and performance officer and chief commercial officer of the university. I had only been in the door a number of months.

An Cathaoirleach

That officer has now been suspended.

Mr. John Kelly

That is correct. I would have had no reason to believe those senior officers of the university would have made a presentation to me or to the governing authority that misrepresented the facts of the transaction.

An Cathaoirleach

Sometimes, the higher up you go, the less common sense you get. Mr. Kelly knows that, does he not?

Mr. John Kelly

I do.

An Cathaoirleach

What comes from the top is not always the best.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

May I come in very quickly on that? From a due diligence perspective, in the first six weeks of this proposal, five people flagged concerns about valuations, planning, the public spending code and the appraisal of options. This was being done but it was not brought through. The Comptroller and Auditor General has been very clear on this as regards the defective nature of the proposal.

An Cathaoirleach

I read that part of the report carefully. I have got that. I had a couple of other questions regarding Rhebogue. Was Mr. Kelly aware that a valuation report had not been presented to a subcommittee of the authority before the purchase was approved?

Mr. John Kelly

Is the Cathaoirleach asking whether I was aware that the document was not submitted to the finance committee? Is that the issue?

An Cathaoirleach

Yes.

Mr. John Kelly

Yes, I was aware of that. It had been to the finance committee on a previous occasion, as was clear from the presentation. Subject to due diligence, it was approved to go to the governing authority.

An Cathaoirleach

What are the implications for the university with regard to future funding? There is a section 64 investigation here. What are the implications?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

The implications for the university are very serious in respect of funding, reputational damage and staff morale. Aside from the financial and direct costs, this will have very serious consequences for the university. As Dr. Wall has said, we will be working with the HEA for a significant period of time to extricate ourselves from this situation.

An Cathaoirleach

Was Mr. Kelly at the meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts in May 2023? Did he attend that meeting?

Mr. John Kelly

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

He would have heard assurance being given that a new property acquisition policy had been put in place. Surely, the Rhebogue transaction did not follow that policy. As corporate secretary, did he not ask questions as to why that policy was not being followed?

Mr. John Kelly

The presentation represented the transaction as following the policy. I was not involved in any shape, manner or form in the transaction prior to it coming to the governing authority. I was not on the project team that brought it to the governing authority. Essentially, I was provided with a paper that had gone through the executive committee of the governing authority and the president requested me to bring it before the governing authority for approval. That was my involvement in it. I had no involvement in due diligence, legal matters or any of that. The sole request made of me was to bring it to the governing authority. As I said, it arrived with me on Friday, following that meeting of the executive committee, for presentation to the governing authority on Tuesday.

An Cathaoirleach

At the start of the meeting, I quoted the findings of the Comptroller and Auditor General. Sometimes you will find one or two issues or deficiencies but absolutely zero was right about this. It is just such basic stuff. This is a university. Sole traders going out to buy an extra unit to house their business or whatever else would do all of these things in consultation with their solicitor and, perhaps, a planning agent. They might walk into the local authority, or pick up the phone to that authority, and ask whether there are planning implications if homes are used for student accommodation. I tell people all of the time to check with the local authority before they buy.

Mr. John Kelly

That process was undertaken. Individuals on the project team did exactly what the Cathaoirleach has said. They sought architectural advice and planning advice. The planning advice was strongly against proceeding with the transaction on the basis that there was a serious question as to whether the planning permission for dwelling houses would suffice for student accommodation.

An Cathaoirleach

Limerick City and County Council would have been very clear. Any middle-ranking planner would been able to rattle this off from the top of the dome.

They would quote the Planning and Development Act.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

I will come in on this. It is important to say that the policy is very clear that it is led by executive sponsors in conjunction with buildings and estates and finance, where they are warranting that all the codes have been complied with.

An Cathaoirleach

If those above you are doing wrong, you have a duty to flag that up. Is that right or wrong?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

If there is information-----

An Cathaoirleach

It does not matter who it is who is doing wrong-----

Professor Shane Kilcommins

Anybody who is doing wrong-----

An Cathaoirleach

-----even if they are at the top of the tree.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

Absolutely. The information should be brought to light. However, it is important that the members of the public accounts committee are aware that on 15 July, a detailed report on planning came in to the university, to the director of buildings and estates, flagging all the concerns about this transaction in terms of intensification of use and change of use. The director of buildings and estates was engaging directly with the chief commercial officer. The day before this came to the executive chairperson, they were still flagging concerns but this was not brought to the attention of the decision-makers. That has been flagged in the various reports

An Cathaoirleach

All of the red flags were there and everybody who was aware of this or had any questions around it should have pressed the brake. Regarding the Dunnes site, has anything been done with it since it was purchased?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

It is being used at the moment. A part of the property is being used.

An Cathaoirleach

How much of it is being used?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

About 30%.

An Cathaoirleach

What is it being used for?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

It is being used for an engagement hub and a citizens' observatory and the school of architecture is using it as well.

An Cathaoirleach

It is being used by the university.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

It is being used by the university in conjunction with Limerick City and County Council.

An Cathaoirleach

Has money been invested in it since it was purchased for €8.3 million?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

Yes. We obviously spent €8.3 million initially. To date, the total cost, including the €8.3 million, is €10.2 million. That is to bring it in for meanwhile use and to remove asbestos and so on.

An Cathaoirleach

Does that include the purchase price?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

That includes the purchase price.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. So another couple of million euro was spent on it.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

€1 million.

An Cathaoirleach

Given the statements here today, the HEA is obviously reluctant to sign cheques at the moment for this Dunnes site. Would that be right?

Dr. Alan Wall

On that issue, the HEA has put a pause on any capital works, for instance. That pause is not universal because the principle that animates us when we do this is that the students should not suffer. There are some student projects which we have unpaused and my colleague can speak to those in detail. The general principle at the moment, however, is that in agreement with the Department we have paused any capital works going into the University of Limerick.

An Cathaoirleach

It is a building I am trying to visualise. I saw the pictures of the outside. I shop in Dunnes Stores fairly regularly so I have an idea what it looked like inside. They all look much the same. I do not mean that with any disrespect to Dunnes Stores. Typically, they are a big portal frame. To modify that for student or university use would require substantial works. What is the estimate to bring this into use? There is no plan. That is the first thing. There is no strategic plan. The C and AG has outlined that. Within the circle at the top of the university, you must have some figure as to what it would take to bring this into some kind of purposeful building? How much will it cost?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

I do not have a figure at the moment. The challenge with this property has been that the information in respect of it was restricted for a very long period. It was never brought through the executive committee. It was never considered that it might-----

An Cathaoirleach

We know all that.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

We made a decision in haste and it was a bad decision but what we need to do now is bring it back in, do the relevant due diligence and make the correct decisions.

An Cathaoirleach

What kind of figures are being mentioned to get this suitable for use by the university?

Mr. John Kelly

There are two scenarios for this.

An Cathaoirleach

Will Mr. Kelly tell us what they are?

Mr. John Kelly

The desired scenario at the time this was put in place was to put a landmark building on that property, given its location. It was over paid for but, given where it is in Limerick city, it is strategically valuable. It has great potential. The question is whether the university has the money or the wherewithal to pull off a redevelopment of that scale, and that is very uncertain.

An Cathaoirleach

What kind of figures is Mr. Kelly talking about?

Mr. John Kelly

You are talking maybe €80 million to €100 million for a complete rebuild, but to refurbish the current building and put it back into use as is would be in the order of €10 million.

An Cathaoirleach

That would be for a building that would look like the Dunnes Stores premises.

Mr. John Kelly

It would look much improved but it would not be a landmark building.

An Cathaoirleach

It would be a big warehouse-type building.

Mr. John Field

I will come in on those points. The acting president referred earlier to the development of a business case. We will have to develop a number of options for the building now in terms of its potential and obviously evaluate and appraise which are the best options to proceed. Some work has commenced on that. In 2021, the university and Limerick City and County Council jointly made a submission to the urban regeneration and development fund. That submission was for a building with an estimated investment of close to €200 million. Approximately half of that was student accommodation and the other half was for teaching and research activities. That bid was only partially supported. It was supported for the purpose of progressing the business case and the appraisal further. It identified that we had not sufficient appraisal done. We are now in that process to appraise it.

An Cathaoirleach

When is it hoped to have a strategic plan for this building?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

I expect that we will have some detail being provided from the finance office into the executive in the next two weeks that will allow us to consider it further.

An Cathaoirleach

Will you bring it to the governing authority with full information?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

Yes, we will bring it to the governing authority for an update.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Professor Kilcommins.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

There are many fine buildings in Limerick. The section of the university that is functioning in this building is the school of architecture. It is a pretty ugly building as it stands. I know it quite well and it is in a prominent location. The fact that the school of architecture is located there is incredible.

Was Mr. Kelly aware of the Dunnes Stores site on Honan's Quay before he took up his position?

Mr. John Kelly

Yes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

So he would have been aware of the shortcomings in the university in how that transaction occurred.

Mr. John Kelly

Yes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Did that make him more critical of other transactions that were coming in front of him?

Mr. John Kelly

Yes. The paper on this was presented on the Friday before the Tuesday-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

When Mr. Kelly was presented with this gun-to-the-head proposal, what questions did he ask?

Mr. John Kelly

I received the paper in the evening on the Friday before. I was actually on leave the following week.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Did you meet them, talk to them and ask them?

Mr. John Kelly

Yes, I did. It went to the executive committee of the university.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

How long did it take to have that conversation about it?

Mr. John Kelly

It was discussed in detail at the executive committee meeting-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

No, I mean you personally before the committee.

Mr. John Kelly

It was emailed to me by the chief corporate officer.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

There was no conversation.

Mr. John Kelly

There was a brief conversation around the logistics of getting the paper before the governing authority, making sure the meeting was convened and all the rest of that.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Mr. Kelly did not satisfy himself in advance of it going on the agenda.

Mr. John Kelly

The paper, on the face of it, had assurances on all of the matters that were of concern to Dunnes Stores. In fact, it was highlighted-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

In hindsight, does he regret not having said, "Hold on here a second"?

Mr. John Kelly

In hindsight, of course. It would never be the intention to approve a property in circumstances where there were such shortcomings. The point is, and this was highlighted in various reviews, the purpose or the sense of that presentation was to give the appearance that the various things that were not done in the Dunnes Stores transaction were addressed in this. That was the very strong view given to the executive and the governing authority.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Did Mr. Kelly know the price of these houses?

Mr. John Kelly

Yes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Did he not say to himself that these must be fantastic, brilliant houses at twice the price of an average house in Limerick? Did he question that? Did he know where they were? Did he know anything about them?

Mr. John Kelly

I am from Limerick originally but I lived away from Limerick for 20-odd years before I took up the post at the University of Limerick so I was probably not just as au fait with house prices-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Come on. It is not 10% over-----

Mr. John Kelly

I take your point.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It is nearly double the price.

Mr. John Kelly

I take your point on that. The presentation spoke about this in terms of comparisons on building purpose-built student accommodation on the campus in the University of Limerick. It spoke about accommodation in other universities and presented this on the basis of a cost per bed, which is the issue that was discussed before the committee today. The presentation and the tenet of how information was presented on that paper was to show they compared favourably with the other options to develop student accommodation. That is the way the paper was presented.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I do not know. I am going to move on and ask about one thing that jumped off the report of the C and AG. The developer approached first of all. Obviously, the developer would have been aware of what had happened on the Dunnes Stores site and might have sensed an opportunity and regarded the university as being a soft touch to try this.

People would not have been snapping at the developers' heels to buy these for twice the price. There was no rush on this.

I had to reread this. I read it a few times because I thought "This cannot be right". Under the terms of the contract a deposit of just €10 was paid by the university on the contract signing date. That has to be unusual. Has the Comptroller and Auditor General seen that before? Is that usual? He obviously included it in the report.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Exactly. From memory, the contract was relatively standard. In the draft there was provision for a 10% deposit but it was changed at a late stage and it was dropped to just €10.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

That is highly unusual.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I would consider it unusual.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What would have been the thinking on that? Why would it be so?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

It is difficult for me to answer that question for the simple reason that that contract was negotiated by the chief commercial officer with the external legal providers. That term would have been negotiated.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Would the €10 have gone under the radar where a 10% deposit-----

Professor Shane Kilcommins

It was not mentioned in the presentation.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

-----or the 10% would have been accounted for differently?

Mr. John Kelly

It was peppercorn rent. The primary purpose would be to bind the institutions in terms of having a binding contract in place. However, in the ordinary course, I do not know the reason why it was a peppercorn rent as opposed to the original sum.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Would that be accounted for differently if it had been 10%?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Well, 10% would have been of the order of €1 million and that would have to be put through the books of the university.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

This was quite convenient, that it was a peppercorn rent.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

From my perspective it meant that it was not identified as a commitment of the university even though there was a commitment at the end of September 2022 and it should have been adverted to in the financial statements. When I presented previously I drew attention to that and it should have been disclosed as a commitment at that point.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Can I ask about the existing Dunnes Stores site? What is the planning situation here? Obviously the university is partnering with Limerick City and County Council. What percentage of a commitment has Limerick City and County Council got with the university?

Mr. John Field

As I mentioned, the URDF submission was made in 2021 and some funding was awarded as part of that. That provides 75% funding. The remaining 25% of expenditure to date has been split between the university and the council. There has been very little spent. There has been some spend with consultants to prepare-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is there a long-term commitment with them? Has the university engaged in discussions with them?

Mr. John Field

The intention would be if a preliminary business case is developed and the outcome of that is a project that will be suitable for URDF funding, a further submission will be made for funding under it. However, we are not at that point yet. The portion of the URDF grant funds up to 75% of the expectation. In the previous bid we submitted the expectation is that 25% will be met by the university.

Deputy Catherine Murphy: This would require full planning permission. Local authorities can do Part 8-----

Mr. John Field

No it would-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It would be a full planning permission.

Mr. John Field

The understanding at the current point in time - but this may well change as the preliminary business case is developed - is that it would be a university project and therefore a university planning application.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

When doing the evaluation in relation to Rhebogue, and the amount of money that was paid, the amount of income from rents was obviously the primary evaluation. What rent do students pay in Rhebogue?

Mr. John Field

The bedrooms are predominantly let on a 51-week basis at the moment for just over €9,000.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Had they been bought for the market price at the time as opposed to the Limerick university inflated price, would the rents have been different? Would they have been a reflection of the purchase price as opposed to the inflated price?

Mr. John Field

As part of the assessment of the current value of those houses we conducted what is called a value-in-use model. We would have input into that model the current rents and that model yielded a value of €7.4 million.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

They would have paid less. If UL paid less, they would have paid less.

Mr. John Field

On the basis of that model, we would need to be charging more than €9,000 to justify the price that was paid, significantly more.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Catherine Murphy can come back in again if she wishes. I now call Deputy Verona Murphy.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I want to go back. I am very aware that most of what has gone before has nothing to do with many of the people sitting before us. However, it does not mean that everybody did not have awareness. I appreciate that. I am not sure what qualifications are required for the governing authority because I believe it is made up of students, professors and whatever. In the case of Mr. Kelly, he was employed as - what is his title?

Mr. John Kelly

Corporate secretary.

Deputy Verona Murphy

It is actually a huge responsibility. He is responsible to Revenue and to everybody for everything that goes forward. When the presentation was made and the price was given, who recorded the minutes?

Mr. John Kelly

My office recorded the minutes.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Mr. Kelly's office, not Mr. Kelly himself.

Mr. John Kelly

It is my responsibility.

Deputy Verona Murphy

It would be a major red flag for someone not to insert the valuation price at a minuted meeting where a presentation was made, where money of this nature, exorbitant money, was being spent. Obviously, people will make up their own minds. At what stage was it recognised by Mr. Kelly that stamp duty was going to be on top of this price?

Mr. John Kelly

Just to clarify, stamp duty is not my responsibility as corporate secretary. I am not involved in transactions. My job is secretary to the governing authority. I do not have a role in assessing tax liability.

Deputy Verona Murphy

When he put the proposal together to bring it to the executive committee, it was not his role to include-----

Mr. John Kelly

I did not put the proposal together in any shape or form.

Deputy Verona Murphy

What? Sorry?

Mr. John Kelly

The proposal was prepared by the chief financial and performance officers, the head of finance in the university and the chief corporate officer who is responsible for acquisitions, for commercial matters. I was not involved. I was not asked to be involved. I had zero involvement in the preparation.

Deputy Verona Murphy

What was Mr. Kelly's job then, from the perspective of, he sat in on the presentation-----

Mr. John Kelly

That is correct.

Deputy Verona Murphy

He took everybody at their word. He saw nothing unusual, heard nothing unusual, as far as he was concerned everything that was in what was presented, he took to be for real and kosher.

Mr. John Kelly

As I said, the two most senior officers, and I accept the Chair's point-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Never mind who presented it. Mr. Kelly suspected nothing except bona fides.

Mr. John Kelly

The month before this presentation went to the governing authority a new property acquisition policy was prepared. The chief commercial officer gave assurances.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I know. I am asking if there was anything in it that would have raised a suspicion that that was not fact.

Mr. John Kelly

The presentation was drafted to give reassurance to the governing authority that-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is not the word Mr. Kelly used when he spoke to Deputy Catherine Murphy. So the question is - was it presented in a way that it misrepresented, misinformed or was prepared to mislead? Do not dilly dally.

Mr. John Kelly

I am not. I am trying to get directly to------

Deputy Verona Murphy

The public is watching. Your reputations are going to be going forward. Does Mr. Kelly feel he was misled in his position?

Mr. John Kelly

I feel that some of the assurances given at that presentation were factually inaccurate and that has been proven by various reviews that have taken place.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Does that not mean he was misled?

Mr. John Kelly

I suppose it does.

Deputy Verona Murphy

They knowingly were factually inaccurate. Is that the case?

Mr. John Kelly

I am not going to sit in judgment but clearly there was information in that presentation that empirically is factually incorrect.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I would just call it that Mr. Kelly was misled and whatever the scenario will end up to be when the investigations are complete, I cannot understand that he was not forthcoming in saying that he was misled. I just do not understand that. It is very simple. We were misled but we asked the questions. When it comes down to Mr. Lemass and Dr. Alan Wall, I am voicing what I voiced at the last committee meeting.

I do not want to see moneys given from the URDF. I am not going to name it because there is an investigation under way but I know that if, as a private citizen, I go to access money anywhere, I am asked for a tax clearance certificate. I am not saying their tax affairs are not in order but, certainly, their affairs are not in order and their governance is not in order. Until such time as they are, I do not want to see any co-operation from a county council.

I want to see the Dunnes Stores site sold because it has attached such a poor taste to the University of Limerick that I do not think it will ever shake it off. I think it should consider that this is something it never intended to buy, certainly not for the money that it cost. It would be much better to off-load it to someone who can take responsibility and then lease it back - let it be Limerick City and County Council off its own bat. However, it should get rid of it because it is already doing the university huge damage, no more than with Rhebogue. If the university is not going to get planning permission, it should sell off those houses, give them to the people who require them and get into an estate where it can build student accommodation under the planning, which it should do. I hope it is looking at sites so that may be the case. Is any site proposed in case the university does not get planning for Rhebogue? Is anybody looking at that?

We are losing the fact there are 18,000 UL students involved. This is all about the executive, who do not seem to be suffering at all. They are being put on sabbaticals at €175,000 a year and on extended sick leave at another €175,000 a year, one assumes. What was the cost of renovation for those who are now on whatever type of leave it is? Is it sick leave? Mr. Flaherty is on leave. Is that correct? What is that the result of?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

An investigative process.

Deputy Verona Murphy

An internal investigation. He is being paid. Was his office renovated in the last two years?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

I think it was.

Deputy Verona Murphy

At what cost?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

I do not know but we can find that out.

Deputy Verona Murphy

The point is how long he is going to be on leave and how much it is going to cost. People are sick to death of this. We are sick to death of it, as a committee. I know those sitting in front of me are sick to death of it too. They should start to make decisions that look like they are doing something that is actually beneficial for the college, as opposed to their own reputations. It has to stop. We need to know if Rhebogue is not going to receive planning, and the university is clearly in breach of planning. Has an enforcement order been brought on Rhebogue from the council?

Mr. John Field

No, but a warning letter-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Mr. Field can rest assured that if this was not in the spotlight in the media in the way that it is, and if it was a private enterprise, there would be enforcement orders. What is the university's position with regard to not getting planning? Where is the plan if those students are out on the street? How much is it going to cost? Where is the plan from UL to build student accommodation? It is clearly a problem for Dr. Wall because capital infrastructure planning and programmes are stopped. Is that why the university has had to withdraw its veterinary school proposal?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

We did not withdraw our veterinary proposal because of anything to do with-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Okay. Tell us why it did.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

When it was initially submitted, the proposal suggested it would cost between €50 million and €60 million, and that was in the original expression of interest that was issued in 2022. A revised expression of interest was then submitted and it suggested that property could be acquired for about €37.5 million. There are two reasons. The first is that there was an incongruence between the business proposal around the veterinary school, which the executive saw, and that proposal for €37.5 million. The second reason is in terms of capital acquisitions. Given where we are at in terms of section 64, it would not be appropriate to go further than that.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I accept and appreciate that, but Professor Kilcommins can see that the impact is going to be on the students. I will ask one more time. What is the proposal if Rhebogue does not get planning permission for the student accommodation?

Mr. John Field

With regard to the process, we received a warning letter-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

I am not interested in the process. I am asking a specific question so listen to the question. The university is going through that process and it may not get planning permission. In the event that Rhebogue is not given planning permission, what is the proposal?

Mr. John Field

We have not applied for any variation to planning permission at this point in time. The warning letter was responded to and it raised the issue as to whether the houses can be rented to students.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Mr. Field has twice ignored the fact that, in July, the university got a warning that basically said it could be in breach of planning.

Mr. John Field

We are not ignoring anything.

Deputy Verona Murphy

The university has not looked at whether it should be applying for retention or a change of use.

Mr. John Field

That is the matter to be determined by An Bord Pleanála. On foot of its determination, the decision will then be made.

Deputy Verona Murphy

So it is before An Bord Pleanála.

Mr. John Field

It was a referral by the local authority on-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Was it a section 5?

Mr. John Field

It is not a section 5. It issues a warning letter. The response to the warning letter raises a question of planning policy, and it refers that to An Bord Pleanála for a ruling as to whether the activity - the use those houses are put to - is in accordance with planning or not. If An Bord Pleanála rules that it is not in accordance with planning, the university will then have to submit a retention permission to regularise the planning. If An Bord Pleanála rules that the use is in accordance with the original plan, then we will have to take no further action.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Typically, the university is relying on the fact An Bord Pleanála will not be back for two or three years. There is no plan in place for a rejection of the plan.

An Cathaoirleach

At this point, there is not. The C and AG’s report identifies people in positions and the key players in all of this. Who will be held responsible? I am not asking for them to be identified by name but by position. Who will be held responsible for the series of events and the serious matters that have arisen?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

There are processes ongoing around that. I cannot comment on them but there are processes ongoing. The president has stepped down.

An Cathaoirleach

Is Professor Kilcommins confident that people will be held responsible?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

I am very confident that people will be held responsible.

An Cathaoirleach

At the moment, the former chief commercial officer is on special leave. The president is on sabbatical and on €175,000 for a position for which there is no course, given it has been established here today that the course she has been hired for is not available in the university. The former chief financial and performance officer has been on extended sick leave since 5 June 2023. Is that correct? The optics are not good. What we have discovered this morning is that a number of investigations are under way but what has happened in the past two years shows there are huge deficiencies. I will leave it at that.

I will move on to the issue of student accommodation. I understand students who live more than 60 km from the university campus can apply for student accommodation, which is fine. It is a huge issue for students, given the cost of accommodation in the cities, and Limerick is no different. Mr. Field said it cost approximately €9,000 per year.

Mr. John Field

That was just for the Rhebogue houses on the 51-week lease. Our rates will generally be lower than that at €6,500 to €7,000.

An Cathaoirleach

In the earlier discussion with Deputy Catherine Murphy regarding these dwellings, it was said that the market value was about €265,000 at the time. If they had been bought for that, it would have been possible to have the rent set a lot lower.

Mr. John Field

If they were bought at €265,000, it would possibly have been slightly lower. The point I was making was that the €9,000 rent supported a value of just under €7.5 million.

An Cathaoirleach

It is not going to support the actual cost of €12.5 million.

Mr. John Field

Correct. That is why we have to book the impairment.

An Cathaoirleach

That is fine. If the university does not get planning permission and if An Bord Pleanála rules against it, there will be a difficulty, so the university will have its fingers crossed that that does not happen. If it happens, it will be in a difficult situation at that point.

How many student beds are owned by the university?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

I think it is about 2,900 beds but I will have to come back to the Chairman on that.

An Cathaoirleach

That is fine. Professor Kilcommins might come back with the exact number. I do not expect him to be able to rattle everything off. Are they owned by the university? Are there other student accommodation facilities that are jointly owned with developers, that are the subject of PPPs or that are contracted in some way by the university? It is good to hear that the 2,900 are owned.

Mr. John Field

All those bedrooms are owned. They are owned through a subsidiary company, but they are all owned by the university. We do not have a PPP company.

An Cathaoirleach

Is it a not-for-profit company?

Mr. John Field

No. The company makes profit, but it is a registered charity.

An Cathaoirleach

Are profits reinvested-----

Mr. John Field

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

-----or are there private interests involved?

Mr. John Field

There are no private interests involved. It is 100% owned by the university.

An Cathaoirleach

And there is no private interest getting any part of that money. That is good.

The university has 18,000 students. Obviously, many of them live within the catchment area - they live within the 60 km. I am familiar with many of the students who go to the university, particularly those from south of the county that I live in, County Laois.

In terms of developing student accommodation because it is a massive issue for students, and the mammies and daddies in terms of trying to pay for it and everything else, we have heard a considerable amount of talk from Government about developing student accommodation from the former Minister for higher education who is now the Taoiseach. Has the university submitted any plans through the Higher Education Authority? Maybe Mr. Lemass from the Department can help us with this. Has Professor Kilcommins submitted any plans in relation to developing student accommodation near the university? Rhebogue is more than 3 km away.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

Rhebogue is over 3 km from the university. I am not aware of any plans.

Mr. John Field

My understanding is that over the past two years or so there have been two proposals discussed. One was not progressed. The second progressed to the point of a business case being prepared, which was submitted.

An Cathaoirleach

Tell me briefly about the first one. What was it for?

Mr. John Field

It was a mixture, I believe, of houses and apartments.

An Cathaoirleach

Was the location far from the university?

Mr. John Field

Approximately 2 km.

An Cathaoirleach

What was the number of beds? They were all self-contained rooms, as I understand it, each containing a small kitchen, a bathroom and a bedroom.

Mr. John Field

A shared kitchen among a number of bedrooms would be the general model.

An Cathaoirleach

How many beds?

Mr. John Field

There were in the region of 300 in that.

An Cathaoirleach

Why was that one ditched? What happened?

Mr. John Field

I was not involved, so I do not know the exact reason. I will get the information.

An Cathaoirleach

Will Mr. Field come back to us on that?

Mr. John Field

I will.

An Cathaoirleach

What of the second one?

Mr. John Field

My understanding was that there was a business case submitted to the HEA in respect of a development for which there was planning permission for student accommodation adjacent to the campus.

An Cathaoirleach

Is it something that the university was purchasing?

Mr. John Field

Purchase as well, yes.

An Cathaoirleach

It is already apartments or something like that.

Mr. John Field

It is not built but it has planning permission for student accommodation.

An Cathaoirleach

To go back to the first for a second, is Dr. Wall aware of the one for 300 students?

Dr. Alan Wall

I am not actually strictly aware because it is being led by the Department, although I have to say that the head of capital at the HEA provides advice to me. Does Mr. McCaffrey want to come in on that?

Mr. Ciarán McCaffrey

It is the Walkers Hill proposal. As originally submitted, it was 300 beds at an estimated cost of €39 million. We commenced a programme of due diligence on it.

An Cathaoirleach

Was it a PPP?

Mr. Ciarán McCaffrey

No. It was an acquisition.

An Cathaoirleach

It was to be university owned.

Mr. Ciarán McCaffrey

Yes. We postponed or stopped the due diligence process because of the issues arising out of Rhebogue.

An Cathaoirleach

Not alone have Rhebogue and the Dunnes site been banjaxed, we now we find that probably what was a reasonably good project, taken at face value-----

Mr. Ciarán McCaffrey

We did not complete the process.

An Cathaoirleach

-----would have delivered 300 beds at a cost of-----

Mr. Ciarán McCaffrey

The estimated cost at that time was €39 million.

An Cathaoirleach

-----€39 million. That is a large number of beds for €39 million in comparison with 80 beds for €12.5 million and all of the costs of the inquiries, examinations, reports and whatever else that might follow. We do not know where this will go, but it is fair to say this could wind up at a number of forums.

We could have had 300 beds for €39 million. That would not have been too bad, would it? That has stopped now and there is no chance of regenerating that.

Dr. Alan Wall

In fairness, it is paused. We have not stopped it.

An Cathaoirleach

It is only that the pause button has been pressed.

Dr. Alan Wall

Yes, because we want to complete our due diligence in the context of section 64.

An Cathaoirleach

That is okay.

Dr. Alan Wall

It sounds very good, but then we have been in the space of sounding very good before. What we will do is-----

An Cathaoirleach

Once the contract is not flaky or similar to the children's hospital in respect of which costs continue to rise.

Dr. Alan Wall

The chairs have enough to be doing. We have paused it. You could not fault us for pausing it given the context, but we understand also that there is an accommodation issue. What we will try and do is marry the two.

An Cathaoirleach

A pressing accommodation issue.

Dr. Alan Wall

It is a pressing accommodation issue. In fairness, we have a few weeks to finish out the section 64 process and come up with a plan. I will take advice from Mr. McCaffrey on this, but it is likely we will re-engage on the issue around the 300 beds.

An Cathaoirleach

Does the Department want to add anything to that?

Mr. Paul Lemass

It is appropriate that it is paused at this point. The Department is working with the HEA on a broader assessment of student accommodation needs and we are working------

An Cathaoirleach

I am not in a position to judge but, based on what we are hearing here, if this mixture of houses and apartments could be put in place 2 km closer than Rhebogue, and I cannot say it is good value for money because I am not in a position to do so, but it certainly sounds like better value for money. It is unfortunate that is paused, is it not?

Mr. Paul Lemass

As part of the short-term activation process, we looked at the initial 309 units and secured a Government decision that included reference to UL and the 309 units, but the examination has not been concluded. There was some planning issues as well, so that has not progressed.

An Cathaoirleach

Would Mr. Lemass keep us up to date with that?

Mr. Paul Lemass

Yes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I want to return to putting the item on the agenda. Is it correct that Mr. Kelly was contacted late on a Friday night of a bank holiday weekend?

Mr. John Kelly

It was during working hours but over the weekend.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It was going to go onto an agenda in a few days' time.

Mr. John Kelly

That is correct.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The Cathaoirleach and I would have come through long years of being members of local authorities in addition to being Members of the Dáil. What you always watch for is something you do not get advance warning of . You know that somebody wants to get something through with the least amount of attention paid to it when it is lobbed in at the last minute. It is a management tactic of, for example, the people on a governing authority whereby they do not give sufficient notice. It is like a gun to head or being told that if the money is not spent, it will be lost. The Cathaoirleach and I both recognise that from direct experience. Systems are put in place to make sure that a certain number of days' notice are given before something that substantial goes on an agenda. Was that not the case in this instance? Is it the case now?

Mr. John Kelly

It is the case now. Also, it should be borne in mind that at the previous meeting of the governing authority, the chief commercial officer - this is in the minutes - said that a proposal might come out of cycle. The last meeting of the governing authority for the year in question was to take place in due course. The chief commercial officer said that a proposal might come forward in relation to these houses. The chief commercial officer flagged that and then it came at the very last minute, as I pointed out.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

We know how unacceptable that was. Who were the auditors when the Horgan's Quay was identified?

Mr. John Field

It was PwC.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Who is it now?

Mr. John Field

It is still PwC.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

They are obviously holding back. Everybody is concerned about their reputations here, including external auditors. It is taking longer than one would have expected to have that audit. Clearly, it is not available to us. We always find it unsatisfactory when we are not looking at the most up-to-date set of accounts in front of the Committee of Public Accounts. Is there likely to be an impairment charge in respect of Horgan's Quay in the 2023 accounts?

Mr. John Field

Yes. The draft accounts include an impairment related to the acquisition in the city centre of €3.04 million.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is it both?

Mr. John Field

Yes. Both impairments are in the one set of accounts.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Presumably, this is not the first time Mr. Kelly has been employed as a corporate secretary?

Mr. John Kelly

I was head of corporate affairs in the HSE before I joined the University of Limerick.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Even though Mr. Kelly was fairly new to it, he had experience.

Mr. John Kelly

Yes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I just wanted to clarify that. I will leave it at that.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Initially, Mr. Kelly said that disclosures are made to HR. Is that correct?

Mr. John Kelly

That is correct.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Has the same person been in HR for a number of years? Has that person changed? With regard to the disclosures we talked about pre-2020 and the for the past couple of years, are the disclosures being made to the same person?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

Previously, the chief commercial officer was the director of human resources. He moved into the role-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Will Professor Kilcommins repeat that?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

The chief commercial officer, who we have been speaking about, started out as the director of human resources in the university.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Mr. Flaherty.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

Correct.

Deputy Verona Murphy

When was he removed?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

He was then appointed into the post of chief corporate officer.

Deputy Verona Murphy

When?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

The specific date-----

Mr. John Field

My understanding is that it was in September 2020. He retained responsibility for a number of portfolios, including the corporate secretary portfolio, and the director of HR reported into this newly created position.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is right. I recall hearing that. Were disclosures made to him that were never dealt with? Do we know?

Mr. John Kelly

It is not the case that disclosures were not dealt with. The issue that seems to be recurring related to reviews is the manner in which they were dealt with.

Deputy Verona Murphy

If one was made recently and it has taken 15 months, what is the normal timeline for a disclosure to be dealt with and finalised?

Mr. John Kelly

Complexity is an issue in the reply to that question. In reasonable terms, I do not think it would be great practice for it to go beyond a six-month period.

Deputy Verona Murphy

To be honest and real about it, if we do have a timeline, you are at nothing if it is open-ended and you have not put that process in that place, as everybody combined here together. That would have been a starting point.

Mr. John Kelly

Within terms of reference, generally a period would be allocated to an investigator to conduct an investigation within, but there are many reasons that does not happen on time, as the Deputy can imagine.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I know there are. However, we have to prioritise. We have counted three people out on full pay, whether it be sick leave, garden leave or whatever. It is costing in the region of millions of euro per annum as long as you not getting to grips with this and not sorting it out.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

The Deputy is correct that-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

I know I am correct because we are reading it. It is astronomical. The headlines in the papers tomorrow and the news will be extraordinary. It will look like nobody cares. There must be timelines and efficiency with regard to these complaints and how they are dealt with it. I understand how Professor Laffan put it and how she dealt with the former president. It was probably more beneficial financially and it could have dragged on. Is a sabbatical quite normal and standard? Is it a contractual arrangement?

Professor Brigid Laffan

When an academic exercises a senior role in the university - she was provost and then president - it is an absolute sectoral norm that the person then has a sabbatical to kick-start a research career. That is what is happening.

Deputy Verona Murphy

So it is not contractual rather it is of goodwill in nature.

Professor Brigid Laffan

It is a very strong norm, and one that I benefitted from myself in UCD.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Is Professor Laffan not able to answer simple questions honestly? The question is that it is just goodwill, is it not? If you decided as a committee, a governing authority or whatever, to say that you do not believe she should take a sabbatical, you do not want her to take a sabbatical and you are not giving her a sabbatical, what would happen?

Professor Brigid Laffan

There are also sabbatical policies, and part of the sabbatical policy is following a senior role, there is a strong norm that you take a sabbatical. If the Deputy is saying that, in this case, there should not have been a sabbatical, that is debatable issue.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is not what I said. I asked what would have happened if Professor Laffan would have said that she is not getting a sabbatical. It is not a contractual arrangement, is it?

Professor Brigid Laffan

No.

Deputy Verona Murphy

It is just goodwill because it is the norm. However, we do not have to follow norms in employment law; we follow the law. It is not a law. It is not contractual. Basically it was up to you to say "yea" or "nay".

Professor Brigid Laffan

Yes, and in my judgment-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is all - there is no need. I am just pointing out where we are and perhaps those are the things that are required to be changed because it is costing a significant amount of taxpayers' money. It is not all just UL. It is not all garnered from students, foreign students, student fees and so on. At the end of the day, it is taxpayers' money, so we need to look at that. I am not going to get a sabbatical if I am sacked by the electorate. If I do not take my seat, I will probably get a sabbatical all right. The point is that we have to look at these things as value for money, which is the way I am looking at it.

Professor Kilcommins mentioned that her contract was not the norm. What was missing?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

Not her contract.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Sorry. What was it then?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

The previous president's contract. President Des Fitzgerald's contract did not include a notice provision.

Deputy Verona Murphy

But Professor Mey's did.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

My understanding is that it did. I expect that it did.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Obviously, there was some reasoning behind it, but it was dealt with. Somebody had to be ridiculed in HR on that basis. Who provided the contract?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

In respect of the original president-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Yes, Mr. Fitzgerald.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

I cannot answer that for the Deputy. I do not know if someone was ridiculed or not. It was before my time in the-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Does Professor Kilcommins know who provided the contract - who drew it up?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

I do not know.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Would external solicitors be involved in these things or is it just HR that is dealing with it internally?

Professor Shane Kilcommins

Normally, human resources would draw up the contract.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Maybe Professor Kilcommins could find that out. If that was not dealt with, the same mistake can be made again if we do not know how it happened.

Professor Shane Kilcommins

I can assure the Deputy that the mistake has not been made again, but I will endeavour to find out.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Let the committee know how it was dealt with and who was responsible at least.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

We checked at the time in other universities whether there was a provision for termination, notice or whatever, and it was standard elsewhere. However, it was not in the contract in UL.

Deputy Verona Murphy

And it was not a new phenomenon. It was obviously standard for a while.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I would imagine so. We did not look back at historical ones but it was evident in other contracts. There was a learning there and I am glad provision was made in the succeeding contract.

Deputy Verona Murphy

It is all about what we learn from mistakes. There is a long way to go here before there is evidence of learning but I will expect to see it next year.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I ask for timelines related to when Professor Mey was recruited and when she became the president.

Professor Brigid Laffan

That was before my time, so I do not have the exact dates.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Roughly.

Mr. John Field

I might not be exactly right but, roughly, I think she was recruited around mid-2018 or maybe late-2018.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

As what?

Mr. John Field

She was vice president and provost - academic affairs provost.

Professor Brigid Laffan

And professor of visual culture.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

That was 2018. When did she become president?

Mr. John Field

She was appointed as interim president when Professor Des Fitzgerald stepped down.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

When was that?

Mr. John Field

That was in September 2020. There was then a process for the permanent post of president, in which she was successful. That concluded in September or October of 2021.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What would be the normal length of time an academic would be in post before they would be likely to or eligible to take a sabbatical?

Professor Brigid Laffan

Usually six to seven years. However, for example, if you have a senior role, it might be five if the role ends in five years. It is between five and seven years.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

So this would have been premature. I just wanted to satisfy myself on that.

Going way back, I remember there was a proposal to purchase a house in Dublin. That did not go ahead, did it?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

No. It was 2018 or 2019 that the proposal was-----

An Cathaoirleach

My understanding is the then chancellor intervened, or said she intervened, to stop it.

(Interruptions).

An Cathaoirleach

I think former chancellor Mary Harney intervened to stop it.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Okay.

An Cathaoirleach

It was clarified at a meeting.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I have one important question. What is the normal valuation put on a student bed as being value for money? What is the normal cost? This query is probably for Mr. McCaffrey.

Mr. Ciarán McCaffrey

The development costs are significantly greater, so we are seeing in the region of around €200,000 per bed.

An Cathaoirleach

I am sorry, how much was that?

Mr. Ciarán McCaffrey

It was €200,000 per bed.

Deputy Verona Murphy

It costs that much per bed for student accommodation.

Mr. Ciarán McCaffrey

Per bed for the development cost.

An Cathaoirleach

I am sorry; I refer to dividing 300 into €139,000.

Deputy Verona Murphy

It was €130,000.

An Cathaoirleach

That is the figure for the project cancelled.

Mr. Ciarán McCaffrey

It is important to say there are regional differences in this context. Dublin-based accommodation, obviously, might be more expensive.

Deputy Verona Murphy

If the Department saw a proposal that was costed at in or around €200,000, it would be happy enough.

Mr. Ciarán McCaffrey

I did not say we would be happy. I said that is the development cost of a bed in purpose-built student accommodation now.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is the development cost. I asked what would value for money in this regard be. Is the Department in agreement with that amount quoted in respect of value for money?

Mr. Ciarán McCaffrey

In terms of value for money-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Is there no consideration at all in the Department whether we get value for money?

Mr. Ciarán McCaffrey

Of course, the value-for-money aspect is fundamental. Student accommodation would typically be a commercial-based activity. The Government intervention of late has been brought about because of the fact it is no longer seen as a self-financing activity. The figures I am giving the committee are just those the market is returning in terms of the development of student accommodation. We have been undertaking many efforts to try to make this affordable. We have commenced the standardised design process to try to really understand student needs and deliver those beds, benefiting from modern methods of construction. The fact of the matter, however, is-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

We saw where that got us now with the OPW paying €442,000 for a prefab.

Mr. Ciarán McCaffrey

Yes, but this concerns purpose-built student accommodation and this is the kind of cost we are looking at in this area.

Deputy Verona Murphy

How does the Department look at it? Where do its representatives go to look at it?

Mr. Ciarán McCaffrey

What does the Deputy mean?

Deputy Verona Murphy

How is this figure for the development cost established? Does a developer just come in and say it is costing €200,000? I would probably have a good insight on the basis of it being a fact that once we go up in densities, etc., it is costly. At the same time, however, the Department has turned down a project priced at €130,000 per bed.

Mr. Ciarán McCaffrey

Yes.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I am sorry, but I do not understand. That would have been value for money then.

Mr. Ciarán McCaffrey

No. Purpose-built student accommodation is typically a design prepared on behalf of the university or any developer proposing to develop such student accommodation. It is put out to the market. We invite tenders for it and those are then evaluated. This is how these figures come about.

An Cathaoirleach

There is one at €130,000 that is paused. I understand there is good reason for it.

Dr. Alan Wall

Regarding what Deputy Verona Murphy is saying, I suppose the key issue for me - and I am not pretending I am across the accommodation issues because I am not because I am very much focused on the decisions I can make and the decision-makers in this area are in the Department - is that there is a capital expenditure before us that I have paused because I am in the wars because of capital expenditure. Until I have some clarity on what we are going to do in terms of the other stuff, I would be loath to do anything but maintain the pause frankly.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay.

Dr. Alan Wall

I accept the issues being raised by the committee, but, for me they are kind of parallel to what I am trying to deal with now.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Unfortunately, that is why we are where we are. It is the students who are being penalised.

Dr. Alan Wall

As I said earlier, a core principle for us is to ensure that nothing we do penalises the students.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Well-----

An Cathaoirleach

Briefly, as we are about to conclude shortly, I note that the Comptroller and Auditor General audited the financial statements of UL for the year ending 30 September 2020, as he is required to do. That was a while ago now. In that endeavour, four full years ago, he drew attention to, and I will not read all the detail out, procurement non-compliance, and everything involved in that, and the purchase of a city-centre campus, which was an issue as early as then. Part of it was outlined in that work. Regarding the overriding of controls, an investigation was completed in November 2020 into a number of allegations made in 2017. Mr. Field was aware of it. He was the financial officer at that time, although not the chief financial officer.

Mr. John Field

Yes, I was in the university at that time.

An Cathaoirleach

What were you doing?

Mr. John Field

I was reporting to the deputy president and chief operating officer. He had the overall responsibility.

An Cathaoirleach

What was your role from 2017 to 2020?

Mr. John Field

I was the director of management planning and reporting, which is a senior role.

An Cathaoirleach

You would have been aware there were several allegations regarding the overriding of controls.

Mr. John Field

Correct.

An Cathaoirleach

You would have been alerted to all this.

Mr. John Field

Correct.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay.

Mr. John Field

Regarding Rhebogue, I will just add that I drew attention to aspects of the contract at a very early stage.

An Cathaoirleach

Senior managers breached the university's policies and procedures in the areas of recruitment and procurement. You would have been aware of all that context.

Mr. John Field

I was not involved in that investigation.

An Cathaoirleach

You would have been aware of it, though.

Mr. John Field

I would have been tangentially aware of it. I was aware it was happening but I was not aware of the detail.

An Cathaoirleach

You would also have been aware of the former president's remuneration, and the resignation in August 2020, including the payment amounting to four months' salary, some €65,355.

Mr. John Field

Again, I was aware of it, but not involved in it. His resignation was handled by the director of HR at the time.

An Cathaoirleach

Did you do anything about it at the time?

Mr. John Field

Obviously, it was a matter raised in the audit, so it would have been raised in the context of concerns there.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Field for that information. That concludes our questioning. We would like a number of pieces of information to be sent to the secretariat, which it has kept a note of.

I thank the witnesses from the HEA, the Department and UL for attending and for preparing the information. We know it is midstream in a lot of work that is ongoing in terms of examinations, investigations, etc. The important thing is that those endeavours be concluded as quickly as possible and corrective measures put in place.

I thank the Comptroller and Auditor General and his staff for attending and assisting today's meeting. I also thank the clerk and the secretariat for their work. Is it agreed that the clerk and the secretariat will seek the requested follow-up information and carry out any agreed actions at the meeting? Agreed. Is it also agreed that we will note and publish the opening statements and briefings provided for today's meeting? Agreed.

The witnesses withdrew.

Sitting suspended at 12.37 p.m. and resumed at 1.30 p.m.