COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 7 Nov 2024

Business of Committee

An Cathaoirleach

Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The public business before us this morning is as follows: minutes; accounts and statements; correspondence; work programme; and any other business. The first item of business is the minutes of our meetings of 24 October and 31 October. The minutes have been circulated to members. Do members wish to raise any matters in respect of the minutes? Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. As usual, the minutes will be published on the committee's web page.

Six sets of accounts and financial statements were laid between 21 October and 1 November 2024. I will ask the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, to address them before opening the floor to members.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

No. 1 is the Dublin and Dún Laoghaire Education and Training Board financial statements for the year of account 2022. They received a clear audit opinion but I drew attention to disclosure of a material level of non-compliance with procurement rules by the board.

No. 2 is the City of Dublin Education and Training Board for 2023, which received a clear audit opinion. In that case, I drew attention to two matters. First was the disclosure of a material level of non-compliance with procurement rules. Second was student grant overpayments unrecovered at 31 December 2023 to the value of €4.7 million, of which €2.4 million was outstanding for more than six years.

No. 3 is the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment for 2023, which received a clear audit opinion.

No. 4 is the Hepatitis C and HIV Compensation Tribunal special account for 2023, which received a clear audit opinion.

No. 5 is a related account, the Hepatitis C and HIV Compensation Tribunal reparation fund for 2023, which received a clear audit opinion.

No. 6 is the accounts of the National Tourism Development Authority, or Fáilte Ireland, for 2023, which received a qualified audit opinion. In my view, the accounts give a true and fair view except that they do not account for a deferred retirement benefit funding asset in respect of one of the authority's four pension schemes.

Deputy Matt Carthy

Will the Comptroller and Auditor General give further clarification in respect of the Fáilte Ireland audit and the qualified audit opinion he gave? Are there details on the particular issues with the pension scheme concerned? Is it an issue that affects other State bodies or is it particular to Fáilte Ireland? Does the Comptroller and Auditor General believe the organisation is taking the necessary steps to address the issues he has raised?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The same kind of issue arises with other accounts but Fáilte Ireland treats it differently in its financial statements. It has four pension schemes. For three of them, it believes it has a statutory basis to recover the funding to meet the liabilities into the future. One of the schemes does not have a similar statutory guarantee of provision of the funding. The value of the liabilities in respect of that scheme is approximately €144 million. That is an estimate. That puts Fáilte Ireland into a net liabilities position on its balance sheet. However, it takes the view that it will be able to meet the liabilities. In a way, it is a little anomalous. It expects it will get the funding but does not treat it as a receivable into the future. Almost all other State bodies that are in a similar funding position assume that they will get the funding into the future and, therefore, recognise an asset. This is an anomalous accounting position. Fáilte Ireland's position is not different.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Has the Comptroller and Auditor General therefore made a recommendation to Fáilte Ireland that it should treat that scheme in a different way? Has the organisation engaged with him on the issue? It seems like a strange situation.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

We have engaged with Fáilte Ireland over a period of six or seven years. We have had the same qualification. The organisation is adamant and is sticking with its view that because it does not have a guarantee, it is not going to recognise the asset. It is returning a net liability position year after year but still continues to operate because it is funded and supported. In my view, it would be appropriate for it to recognise the future asset but I cannot make it change its accounting; I can only recommend. This qualification would go away if Fáilte Ireland recognised the asset.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

The committee might consider corresponding with Fáilte Ireland and asking it to respond to the recommendation of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

An Cathaoirleach

Can we agree to note the listing of accounts and financial statements? Is that agreed? Agreed. As usual, the listing of accounts and financial statements will be published as part of our minutes.

I will move to correspondence. As previously agreed, items that were not flagged for discussion for this meeting will be dealt with in accordance with the proposed actions that have been circulated and decisions taken by the committee in relation to correspondence are recorded in the minutes of the committee's meetings and published on the committee's web page. It is important to note that due to the likelihood of the impending dissolution of the Thirty-third Dáil, the committee may not be in a position to carry out any of the actions relating to correspondence that are agreed during this meeting. The Dáil may be dissolved while we are in the meeting.

Members have flagged two items for discussion under category C - correspondence from and relating to private individuals and any other correspondence. No. R2859, received from an individual and dated 17 October 2024, is correspondence to the committee in respect of the newly appointed MetroLink CEO. I propose that we advise the correspondent that the committee will continue to review the effectiveness of expenditure on MetroLink by the Department of Transport and-or Transport Infrastructure Ireland as part of its ongoing examination of the Department's audited accounts and Transport Infrastructure Ireland's audited financial statements. I flagged this item for discussion. Would anybody like to come in on this issue? MetroLink is something this committee looked at before my time and will continue to look at. The likelihood is that this will be the last meeting of this committee but I felt it was important, given the fact that we got correspondence on the matter, to flag it for discussion. We hope to continue that examination. Does anybody else want to come in? I will move on. Is the proposal that we do that agreed? Agreed.

No. R2881, received from an individual and dated 24 October 2024, is correspondence to the committee in respect of the Health Service Executive. I propose that we write to the HSE to request a breakdown of the €601,000 in additional direct costs incurred by it with respect to a nursing home from May to June 2024. I flagged this item for discussion. Would anybody like to come in on the issue? Is the proposal agreed? Agreed.

No. R2882C is from an individual referred to as CEO No. 2 in the recent inspector’s report published by the Charities Regulator into the affairs of the Peter McVerry Trust. The correspondence is dated 24 October 2024 and concerns our meeting of 17 October 2024, at which we examined the 2023 financial statements of the Charities Regulator. The correspondent contests a statement made at the meeting by the CEO of the Charities Regulator. When asked how the Charities Regulator became aware of issues at the Peter McVerry Trust, the CEO of the Charities Regulator stated that it first became aware of the issue by way of letter in July 2023 stating, “The letter referred to some cash flow difficulties but not beyond normal ranges and there was nothing to worry about, etc.” At the meeting of 17 October, it was confirmed that the letter was received from the correspondent, who takes issue with the CEO’s statement that the cash flow difficulties were not beyond normal ranges and there was nothing to worry about. In evidence provided in support of this, the correspondent has submitted a letter to the committee dated 14 July 2023. In the second paragraph of the letter, the correspondent states:

In my first five weeks in office, I have undertaken a specific piece of work to assess the financial health of the organisation. That review has established that there is a cashflow issue, outside of normal historical ranges for PMVT and as a consequence, the creditors' liability is also above normal levels.

As the correspondent was not present at the meeting, they had no opportunity to contest the statement by the CEO of the Charities Regulator at the meeting of 17 October. It is important to note that this committee is not an adjudicative body and is not making an assessment in relation to this matter. Is it agreed to make the correspondent aware that their position is now on the parliamentary record? Agreed.

That concludes our consideration of correspondence today. We now move on to the work programme.

Members have been circulated with a draft work programme discussion document, which will be displayed on our screens in a moment. It is displayed now. It is likely there will be no further meetings of the Committee of Public Accounts. In the committee’s press release earlier this week, we requested that the next committee examine the expenditure of the national children’s hospital at its earliest opportunity. I might get agreement first and then we will discuss it. Is it agreed that the secretariat should bring this to the attention of the next committee? Agreed. I will now open this up for discussion.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

We did our best to try to have the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board and Children’s Health Ireland into the public accounts committee before this Dáil was dissolved. They offered times that, clearly, if there was going to be a pre-Christmas election, would have fallen within the time the election was being held. We need to know when this hospital we be complete. We need to interrogate the 2022 accounts properly. Much of what would have been in that are claims from BAM, which is the very contentious element of the overrun in the cost of this children’s hospital. It is absolutely unacceptable to find ourselves in this position, and I think most of us are pretty furious about that - I certainly am. It almost feels like it has been, in many ways, deliberate to try to avoid the kind of scrutiny this committee would have the opportunity to provide on one of the biggest spends - a set of accounts that are one of the oldest ones we would have looked at. There is a lot of public concern about it. It is completely unacceptable. I regret that I am saying this on the last day I will be in the Dáil and this public accounts committee. This is one of the ones we absolutely needed to have in. I think we have been frustrated in our attempt to do that and it is just not acceptable.

Deputy Matt Carthy

I wish Deputy Catherine Murphy the best of luck in her retirement. She has the luxury the rest of us do not have in that she knows she will not be coming back, but it is her personal choice. I have no doubt that if she was seeking re-election, she would be back. I thank her particularly for her work on this committee. She did a very important job in holding public bodies to account.

The role of holding public bodies to account for expenditure of what is essentially the Irish people’s money is a very important role. One of the stark things I have seen in my time here is not so much the fact that accounts are not properly scrutinised, because they are, but the fact that when there are glaring examples of wastage of public finances, there is virtually no accountability whatsoever. That is very disappointing. Had somebody told us at the first meeting of the public accounts committee in this Dáil term that, by the end of it, we still would not have a completion date and opening date for the national children’s hospital and we still would not know the final cost of that project, I do not think many members, and certainly people within the public, would have believed them. The fact that is the case is a national scandal. Over the course of this Dáil term, this committee has dealt with a number of blatant examples of wastage. For example, we dealt with a situation where the three leaders of Government, behind closed doors, agreed to apply the highest salary in Europe to a civil servant with no rationale. That is a finding of this and another committee of this Dáil. That has set the standard, in my view, to how public bodies operate and how they feel as to whether they are answerable to the Irish people.

The decision of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board to refuse to attend this committee today and be answerable to the Dáil’s public accounts committee is out of order. It is only in a position to do that because of a culture that allows organisations to feel they can avoid scrutiny, even when a Dáil committee with a constitutional right requests them to do that. I absolutely agree with the proposition that we ask the incoming public accounts committee to further this issue. I hope that the incoming Dáil and Government will finally, once and for all, ensure that every public body that has ownership of moneys that ultimately belong to the Irish taxpayer is accountable and answerable for wastage of that money. I hope the incoming Dáil finally brings an end to what has been a blatant and disgraceful wastage money and a lack of accountability.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I think the most benign interpretation of this might suggest that we were being waited out on an opportunity for us to, once again, as we have on a number of occasions, question the national paediatric children’s hospital and those who are responsible for delivering the children’s hospital. It is unfortunate we have not had that opportunity. However, the beauty with democracy and our Constitution is it cannot be waited out because once the Dáil is reformed, there will be a public accounts committee and we will continue to have public scrutiny on this issue. Clear differences exist between the Government and the contractor involved in this project. Any new Government, whatever its colour, will inherit those issues. I hope both the public accounts committee and the incoming Government will continue to apply pressure to ensure there is the maximum value for money for the Irish people.

I refer to Deputy Murphy’s absence. I personally thank her, for me and many of the new members of the public accounts committee who joined in the depths of Covid when we often did not have the support of colleagues around us.

Having someone like Catherine on the committee was incredibly important. Both she and other members who were here before set a tone that we were here to do the work of the Committee of Public Accounts and that we had other forums for the other parts of our jobs. I thank her for an incredible length of service to this Dáil and in particular to the Committee of Public Accounts. One can only highlight the number of issues on which she has given huge public service – big projects have come under huge public scrutiny that perhaps would not have without her work. I put that on the record.

An Cathaoirleach

I add my frustration that we do not have Children’s Health Ireland or the board in front of the committee today. This committee is incredibly important because we look at how public money is spent. We always need to show respect to the taxpayers and how their money is spent. That is a critical part of the committee’s work. It is frustrating when this committee is trying to do the work we have been tasked with and are not able to continue and complete those tasks because we do not have the witnesses in front of us. While this might be the last meeting of this Committee of Public Accounts, I have no doubt the next public accounts committee, whoever may be the Chair and members, will continue that work and to make sure there is proper scrutiny of how public money is spent. I firmly believe the next public accounts committee, whoever is here – it might none of us or some of us - needs to be surefooted and strong in relation to having people come in front of this committee. The committee does important work. It is important that all those tasked with the responsibility of delivering public projects and spending public money are held to account and scrutinised. It is crucially important that they show this committee, the taxpayer and public the respect they deserve.

As a committee, we were incredibly frustrated by the difficulties in getting both the board and CHI in front of the committee. We now know from the Taoiseach's comments yesterday that the likelihood is the Dáil will be dissolved tomorrow and we will not have another committee meeting. That both of these witnesses had said they could come later in the month is not where this committee is at because we know the committee definitely will be dissolved by next week anyway. It is incredibly frustrating. It was good that we all worked together on this matter. We all spoke with the one voice from the same hymn sheet. Incredibly important work is done here. We need to make sure the public accounts committee, no matter who is on it, can continue the work that has been done up to now and that we continue to work together and make sure public bodies and whoever spends public money comes in front of this committee in order that we can do the work we have been tasked to do.

It has been agreed that the secretariat will write to the next committee and urge it to consider this particular item regarding the national children’s hospital. It will be an extremely important piece of work. We do not know when this hospital is due to be ready for action. God knows at this stage what the final price will be. Unless members have any further comments on this matter, that concludes our consideration.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

It is not on this issue but while we are thanking people, the Cathaoirleach rightly said we may or may not be back here. There is a group of people whom we know definitely will be here, which is all the staff in the Comptroller and Auditor General’s Office, the clerk’s office and the liaison officer with us. On behalf of all of my colleagues, we would like to say thanks so much for supporting us. The big difference between this committee and others is the support we have in carrying out our work. I wish to particularly say thank you to the Comptroller and Auditor General, because he has been a huge assistance to us.

An Cathaoirleach

I was going to bring this all in under any other businesses but does the Comptroller and Auditor General wish to comment?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I certainly would. To the Chair and previous Chair, members and previous members of the committee, I would like to say thanks on behalf of myself and the members of staff in my office. It has been an honour to work with this committee. It started in difficult times with Covid and we had to find new ways of working. We have been delighted to be of assistance to the committee; that is what we are here for. We try to produce good quality work. It is gratifying that members of the committee have taken such an interest in our work and taken it seriously and followed up. It has been a privilege to be here and work with you all.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I confirm I am in the precincts of Leinster House. I join colleagues in the frustration expressed about the organisations that were supposed to come in this morning. It should be prioritised and we can speak about it under the work programme for the incoming committee. I also thank the Comptroller and Auditor General for all his support and assistance to the committee. His team is always very efficient and extremely knowledgeable and able to assist all Deputies. We appreciate that. I thank Deputy Catherine Murphy for her stewardship of the committee as Vice Chair and a long-standing member of the committee and many other members who served for a long time on this committee. As Deputy McAuliffe said, we were new Deputies to the committee four and a half years ago. I thank the secretariat and everybody involved. So much goes on behind the scenes of the Committee of Public Accounts. I express my appreciation of all those for their assistance over the past four and a half years.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank everybody who has worked on this committee both past and present. The incredible work done behind the scenes to support all members is important for the correct functioning of this committee. I also thank the Comptroller and Auditor General for the work he has done in this committee and the support for members. Although I have only been in this role for two or three weeks, the support I have already got from everybody has been incredible - Katherine, Martin, Sarah and everyone else - it has been incredible to get that kind of support. It is important because this is very much a collaborative effort in this committee. It is everybody working together to ensure we get to the bottom of how public money is spent and to scrutinise that. That collaborative approach is important in this committee. I hope at some point I will have the opportunity to be back on this committee but who knows. I also acknowledge the work of An Teachta Murphy. She is not here now but she has done huge work on this committee and in a lot of ways has been a trailblazer on this committee and in other aspects of the Dáil. We can all be thankful that we have had the opportunity to work with her in some way, shape or form and learned from that. I take An Teachta McAuliffe’s point; I am sure she was a huge asset at the beginning. We all remember the people who help us at the start, show us how things are done across party lines and are there to make sure the work we need to do can be done correctly and help each other. I acknowledge her contribution to this committee and the Dáil.

We will move on to the last item on the agenda for today, which is any other business. Do members want to raise any other matters? No. The committee is now adjourned.

The committee adjourned at 10.09 a.m. sine die.