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Committee on Budgetary Oversight debate -
Wednesday, 16 Jan 2019

Fiscal Assessment Report: Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform

Apologies have been received from Deputy Burton. I remind members and witnesses to turn off their mobile phones because their interference affects the quality of the sound recording. The committee will proceed in public session before moving to private session after our meeting with the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, or in a break which we may have during our meeting with the Minister, depending on time.

I welcome the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, who is accompanied by Mr. John McCarthy, assistant secretary at the Department of Finance, Mr. Brendan O'Leary, assistant principal at the Department of Finance, Mr. Ronnie Downes, assistant secretary at the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, and Mr. John Kinnane, principal officer at the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. I thank the Minister for accommodating our request for an early meeting and I appreciate the work of his office in arranging it.

The purpose of the meeting is to discuss some key issues, which I ask that we focus on due to time. They are the committee's engagement on 15 December 2018 with the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council on its fiscal assessment report of November 2018, Brexit and the fiscal budgetary impact, and the committee's engagement on 11 December 2018 with the Department of Health on the issue of the significant overruns in the health budget. On the final issue, we should note that we had requested a meeting with officials from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform but it was declined. As I said, I ask members to try to stick to those three key areas in order that we can make the best use of time.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to the committee. If, however, they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite the Minister to make his opening statement.

I thank the committee for the invitation to appear before it and discuss the matters it has raised. On the outturn for 2018, for the first time in more than a decade our public finances are balanced in cash terms. This is not an insignificant achievement given where we were only a few years ago. The main budgetary metric for international purposes is the general Government balance, which will be reported by the CSO at the end of March. Based on the Exchequer figures, however, a small general Government surplus is possible. A small deficit of 0.1% was projected in the recent budget. We are aiming, and believe we are likely, to deliver a surplus of 0.1%, which will represent an over-achievement of that target.

To achieve this Exchequer cash surplus, we used the 2018 revenue over-performance, although it was largely driven by corporation tax, as I have acknowledged. This represents a positive development in reducing our overall debt burden as the day-to-day running of central Government is being met from within resources and we are not borrowing to fund these activities.

In 2019, current expenditure will grow by 3.9% compared with 2018. In 2018, the equivalent growth compared to 2017 was 5.6%. Much of this increase was driven by an overrun in the health sector. If one excludes growth in health expenditure in the current area, total expenditure grew by 4.8% in 2018 compared to 2017.

Turning to the outlook for this year, in assessing our draft budgetary plan the European Commission, the body charged with formally assessing our compliance with the EU rule, has assessed budget 2019 as being compliant with the fiscal rules and has projected that we will achieve our medium-term budgetary objective this year. However, this, of itself, does not represent grounds for complacency. This is because our debt burden remains highly elevated at 105% of gross national income modified, GNI*, versus a comparable 87% for the euro area. In that context, at budget time, my Department projected a balanced budget in headline terms, moving to a surplus thereafter. However, given that the external economic outlook is deteriorating, the probability of a disorderly Brexit is rising and quantitative easing is ending, our policy approach should be to target larger surpluses to build up our budgetary buffers for when times become less favourable.

It is my intention to run budget surpluses into the future if the economy continues to perform strongly and to use them to reduce our national debt. Furthermore, any windfall receipts that arise from the State reducing its involvement in the banking and financial sectors will also be used to pay down public debt.

A notable feature of smaller open economies is that they typically operate budget surpluses when operating close to potential. This helps build up capacity for the future and helps allow steady improvements in public services. This also runs the risk of increased funding being absorbed without risk of inflationary pressures and, furthermore, many of these countries enjoy a high stock of public infrastructure as investment is maintained. Notwithstanding this, our public finances are moving in the right direction and this is testament to sound policies in recent years. Our task, going forward, will be to continue to build on these hard won and difficult gains and to try to maintain stability and security in our public finances.

Some of the policies I have committed to implementing in this regard include the establishment of a rainy day fund. In addition, by continuing to maintain a broad and stable tax base, I hope to ensure that the State continues to be financed properly.

The rate of VAT in the hospitality sector increased to 13.5% from this month. This measure will allow us to reduce our over-reliance on increases in other tax heads, such as corporation tax, and allow the continued development of our tax base.

In recent years, different measures have represented a positive move in this direction. In addition to the VAT change, measures include the introduction of USC and local property and sugar taxes. These now fund 5.7% of overall Government revenue. Furthermore, it is my intention to publish a set of proposals in the coming period to look at how we can further reduce our over-reliance on corporation tax.

At this point, I want to acknowledge the work of the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council on budget 2019, in terms of its assessment and endorsement of the macroeconomic forecasts underpinning the budget as well as for the analysis set out in the November 2018 Fiscal Assessment Report, FAR. I welcome the observations of the council and I recognise its important role. My response to the Fiscal Assessment Report will issue shortly and will be available on my Department's website and shared with the committee.

I acknowledge that I am in agreement with many of the points made by the council, including its assessment of the economy's strong performance to date as well as the key risks, mainly external in origin, it faces such as Brexit, rising trade protectionism and an evolving international tax environment.

One of the issues that arose at the meeting of the committee on 5 December with members of the fiscal council was the charge that my Department faces serious challenges predicting corporation tax receipts. In fact, a widely recognised feature of our corporation tax base is its high concentration of receipts among a small number of firms, leaving this tax head much more exposed to specific developments. A further complicating factor in forecasting this tax head is the budgetary timetable, which means that the second instalment of annual corporation tax does not fall until November, a full two months after the forecasts have been finalised.

In addition, the Revenue Commissioners and my Department rely on information from companies about expected profitability, which can often be underestimated. In a 2016 review of the challenges forecasting Irish corporation tax, the council indicated this is due to the concentration of receipts among a small number of firms, which mirrors our export sector. IFAC has acknowledged that forecasting corporation tax has traditionally been difficult in Ireland. The council tests a number of alternatives to my Department’s methodology and these provide a slightly better outcome, although there is still a large variation versus forecast. It concludes this suggests the importance of idiosyncratic developments in explaining annual movements in corporation tax

A second charge that was made at the meeting on 5 December was that budget 2019 was based on a relatively benign outcome for Brexit. In chapter 6 of the economic and fiscal outlook document, however, alternative Brexit outcomes to the central scenario were explored. The possibility of a no-deal Brexit has influenced policy decisions relating to our stated aim of balancing our national finances and investing in capital infrastructure. This is also why I am adopting measures to build up our fiscal buffers to better ensure our economy can withstand the impact of possible future shocks. By running a balanced budget this year and targeting budgetary surpluses beyond 2019, we are ensuring that we do not add to our elevated levels of public debt.

A third issue was the assertion that the medium-term spending projections lack credibility given the probability of expenditure overruns. When preparing the expenditure allocations beyond 2019, the ceilings are prepared on a careful and contained basis, which maintains allocations across all spending Departments and which takes account of demographic factors in the areas of health, social protection and education. In addition, the overall spending profiles include a separate, unallocated provision. The amount is distributed across Departments in the context of the annual budget process, for example, in public service pay and pension agreements. In adopting this approach to forecasting, my Department mitigates against the risk of simply restating ceilings and applying inflationary pressures, which would lead to expenditure baselines ratcheting ever upwards and pre-empt the space for better discussion of policy priorities.

I will give a brief overview of the outturn for 2018. Total gross voted expenditure was just over €63 billion, comprising €57 billion in current expenditure and €6 billion in capital expenditure, which is €1.3 billion, or 2.1%, ahead of profile for the year. Of the sum, €1.1 billion and €118 million relate to current and capital expenditure, respectively. This is broadly in line with the projections for the year set out on budget day last October, when additional spending was announced for a number of areas, primarily health, housing and education.

These priorities are also reflected in the allocations for 2019, which were published in the Revised Estimates Volume last December. This year, the Government has allocated a total of €66.6 billion in gross voted expenditure, the vast majority of which is for day-to-day current expenditure, amounting to €59.3 billion, with a further €7 billion allocated to capital expenditure.

Funding for the key day-to-day public services of social protection, health and education together account for 80% of total gross voted current expenditure. While the allocation for health for 2019 is more than €17 billion, I am acutely aware, given the scale of this allocation, that over the past number of years, in particular 2018, overspends in this area have impacted on the overall resources available for public services. With this in mind, there is ongoing engagement between my Department and the Department of Health on how we can best manage this expenditure and ensure that the provision of these additional resources is matched with increased levels of accountability and transparency in expenditure matters, in particular within the Health Service Executive, HSE. Housing has also been prioritised for 2019, with an overall allocation of more than €4 billion. This represents a significant increase in year-on-year terms, in particular relating to capital expenditure, which has increased by one fifth. The education allocation is up by 5%.

Looking at expenditure policy more broadly, the fiscal advisory review refers to the rapid pace of spending growth between 2015 and 2018 and notes this was largely driven by year-on-year increases in spending. In assessing the council's criticism of recent expenditure policy, it should be noted that expenditure growth in the post-consolidation period has been significantly more modest than what was seen in the pre-consolidation period. Between 2003 and 2008, gross voted expenditure increased by 63% whereas between 2014 and 2019 gross voted expenditure will have increased by 23% or just under 5% per annum. We cannot take this for granted and I will continue to work hard to maintain a disciplined approach to the management of public spending. If I were to listen to the many demands made from many different quarters, lobby groups and interest groups, all of whom raise legitimate interests on behalf of their members, and accede to even half of them, public expenditure would be significantly ahead of the rate to date. We need to use this period of relative economic strength to be conscious of the great risk we face in Brexit and of the priorities ahead.

Returning to the higher than anticipated revenue generated in 2018 from corporation tax discussed earlier, these revenues are facilitating important Government initiatives, including support for capital investment. Although there was a not insignificant once-off element to the increase in receipts in 2018, the over-performance also arose from a combination of enhanced trading conditions and increased product sales. Corporate profitability has almost doubled since 2010 and experienced annual growth of just under 10% in 2017. Capital expenditure can play an important role in our economy and is up by 24% this year to a total level of €7.3 billion. It is important to use the period of strength in corporation tax receipts to accelerate infrastructure investment in the areas in which it is most needed. As far as expenditure management is concerned, the Government has a record of steady increases in support of the social and economic development of our country at much more sustainable levels than in the past. Moreover, these planned increases are being delivered on budget and on time across virtually all areas of public expenditure. I recognise that there are particular challenges and pressures within the health sector in which all practices are now being stepped up.

In conclusion, I am deeply aware of the growing challenge of Brexit. I have outlined everything we have done to respond to that challenge to date. Much of the commentary on our economy tends to fluctuate between the risk posed through overheating on the one hand and the challenges arising from Brexit on the other. The context of all of this is, of course, the needs of our society and citizens. As Minister for Finance, the best course of action open to me is to maintain stability in the public finances, build up our budgetary buffers for when times become even more difficult and balance our books. I thank the committee.

A large number of members are indicating that they wish to ask questions. I will follow our usual process of an initial five-minute tranche.

If there are additional questions, we will come back to them at a later point. The first member to indicate was Deputy Michael McGrath.

Before we proceed, it would be helpful if the Chairman outlined the sequence of speakers.

The members who have indicated so far are Deputies Michael McGrath, Bailey, Lisa Chambers, Breathnach, Broughan, Lahart and Pearse Doherty. Deputies Jonathan O'Brien and Boyd Barrett have now indicated. That is pretty much everybody at this stage. We will work through it. To clarify my reference to "five minutes", it means five minutes for questions from each Deputy. The Minister can answer, obviously, but is up to members themselves how they use the five minutes. I call Deputy McGrath.

I welcome the Minister and his officials to the committee. I will focus on two issues in the time available. The first is corporation tax, which the Minister addressed at length in his opening remarks. The numbers are staggering with approximately €10.4 billion in receipts in 2018. To put that in context, the Government predicted in 2015 that receipts in 2018 would be in the region of €5.5 billion. It has almost doubled. The report of Mr. Seamus Coffey in June 2017 stated corporation tax receipts could be expected to be sustainable over the medium term to 2020. At the time he was working off the 2016 figures, which were approximately €7.3 billion. We are up 40% on even those numbers. Given the growing dependence on the multinational sector and, in particular, on a small number of multinational companies to deliver these significant corporate tax receipts and the level of risk that poses to the public finances and the wider economy, is it time to review the sustainability of such receipts? I ask the Minister not to rule that out immediately but to instead consider the need for a further updated report looking beyond 2020 and taking into account the recent boom in receipts to examine the sustainability of corporation tax receipts over the next five to ten years.

We are looking at that very issue. I outlined in my opening statement some of the difficulties we have from a timing point of view. For the first time of which I am aware, I indicated at the end of last year that we do not believe the amount of the corporation tax collected for 2018 is sustainable. We believe it is a one-off and that figure is €700 million. I am examining proposals on how to form a further view on the sustainability of corporation tax. We have taken two actions to address that risk now. First, we have built our tax forecasts for 2019 on the basis of a sum between €900 million and €1 billion lower than the amount collected in 2018. Second, this risk is the key reason I decided to increase the VAT rate on the hospitality and service sector. It is only through adopting such measures that we have a prospect of being able to reduce, in turn, our reliance on corporation tax in future.

My question is whether the Minister will consider an independent report to examine the sustainability of corporation tax receipts given the fact that the Coffey report is now, in essence, outdated in view of the growth in receipts since and the fact that his conclusion took us only as far as 2020. It does not say whether it is the beginning or the end. We are now in 2019 and there is a need to refresh that view and look again at sustainability over a longer term. Will the Minister consider an independent report at arm's length from the Department of Finance?

I am certainly happy to consider that. I assure the Deputy that in my engagement with officials in the Department of Finance, it is clear that they are every bit as alive to the risks we face and they are able to provide an independent assessment of it. I am conscious as I answer the Deputy that there is an institution which is independent of Government and which has a role in many of these matters, namely the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council. However, I will consider his suggestion.

Following the vote in Westminster yesterday, the prospect of a hard, cliff-edge Brexit is very real and we must prepare for it. In recent times, has the Department carried out an assessment of the impact such an scenario would have on the economy - in the context of employment numbers, tax receipts and growth - in 2019 and 2020? We have the paper from late 2016 that the Department produced in conjunction with the ESRI. I am talking about the more immediate impact this year and next year on tax receipts, employment and economic growth. Has the Department modelled that? If so, will the findings be published?

Our most recent modelling exercise was done a few months ago in the context of preparing the Budget 2019 - Economic and Budgetary Outlook. In that analysis, we highlighted our best estimate of what a no-deal scenario would be. It showed that the level of output in our economy would be approximately 3.25% lower after five years than would be the case in a no-Brexit scenario. The analysis contains figures in terms of employment, outcomes and output. The next point at which we would normally look at reviewing our forecast in the context of various risks would be in the stability programme update due in April. However, since the Government and I published this work, a number of reviews were carried out in the United Kingdom in December. These outline the UK authorities' most recent estimates of what would be the effect of the British economy if a no-deal scenario developed. I have asked my officials to review those figures in order to see if we would be in a position to provide an update on the effect of a no-deal scenario beyond that which we have already outlined. We have shared information and we issued a forecast. That forecast was part of the budgetary process. I will review matters in order to see if there is a need to update that further, particularly in light of the scale of the vote that happened last night.

Chapter 6 of the Budget 2019 - Economic and Fiscal Outlook refers to the paper from late 2016 from which the projection to the effect that, in the event of a disorderly Brexit, the level of Irish output would be approximately 3.25% lower over a five-year period. The document also states that there would be a more immediate, short-term impact as a result of regulatory divergence, sterling depreciation and disruption to trade, consumer spending, investment, competitiveness and the public finances. However, no numbers are provided in this regard. What impact will a no-deal Brexit have on the economy in terms of tax receipts, economic growth and employment in 2019 and 2010? Potentially, we are staring down the barrel of a cliff-edge, no-deal Brexit. Does the Department have those numbers? If so, will they be published?

No. This is why I have asked that a review of our economic forecasts take place earlier than would normally be the case. As stated, particularly in light of the scale of the vote last night, it is important - from the point of view of the Oireachtas let alone that of myself - to review our forecasts far earlier than normal. When that information becomes available, and I am looking to get it as soon as possible, I will publish it.

Will numbers for a disorderly Brexit be included?

That is exactly what we are doing. Our report will contain many caveats because we will be looking at figures that were issued by economic bodies in the UK a few weeks ago. What they are trying to do is form a view of an event that has never happened before. Never in history has an economy as large and as integrated with the rest of the global economy as Britain's left a single trading bloc. The forecasts that have been made in the UK are based on many assumptions. Not only would I have to build on those forecasts, there is also the challenge of having to factor in two matters. That is what is giving us food for thought and it is why we are reviewing our figures. One of the matters to which I refer relates to what would be second-order consequences of a disorderly Brexit.

We can model but we can only do so on the basis of what would be the effect on investment. It is very difficult for us to be as clear as we would like to be regarding what could be the consequences of regulatory non-alignment because this is a new risk that is developing. The second matter that we have to factor in is the fact that we are trying to understand - and we have work done on this in the event of a no-deal Brexit scenario - what will be the mitigative policy measures that would be taken and that, in turn, could reduce the net policy effects.

To answer the Deputy's question on whether we are doing this work, the answer is "Yes". We are doing it in light of what has happened. Will that work be made available to the Deputy and the committee? The answer is also "Yes".

I thank the Minister.

I welcome the increased investment on the part of the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government. I will outline the tangible result of such increased investment. People never thought that almost 10,000 social homes would be delivered this year, that in the region of 8,000 units would be built and acquired or that we would support over 45,000 people in accommodation while their homes for life are being built. People never talk in those terms. Moreover, they erect billboards and speak negatively about things. I very much welcome the increase in spending. A great deal of funding went into resourcing local authorities and An Bord Pleanála in order to get all of those systems up and running. As somebody who knows a little bit about housing - and I read all of the planning applications submitted to local authorities and An Bord Pleanála - I can attest to the fact that there is a volume of applications coming through that has not been seen in the past couple of years. I very much welcome the investment in the right place.

There has been much commentary on the national children's hospital. While I have a view on the location, etc., I will park the issue for today. As a parent of young children who lives in Dublin, I am acutely aware of the stress and the concern that arises for people who have sick children in hospital and who live outside Dublin. Under the plans for the new hospital, provision is being made for 380 individual en-suite inpatient rooms in order to allow families to stay with their children. There will be a 53-unit family accommodation facility provided so that parents can be on site with their children. When we talk about broad figures, we sometimes lose sight of the emotional support that needs to be given to people who live in this State. I am acutely aware that the inflation in costs as a result of the construction aspect and our skills shortage has given rise to the overspend.

I would like to hear more detail about how closely the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform is working with the Department of Health in order to ensure that the latter will not have as big an overspend in the latter part of this year as was the case in 2018.

What impact is the US tax reform likely to have on our corporation tax?

The Deputy made a very good point about the link between the money we spend and the effect it can have on people's lives. It is encouraging to see the scale of increase in the number of homes being built. As I am well reminded from my engagement across the country and in my constituency, we still have a long journey to travel in this regard.

In terms of how much my Department engages with the Department of Health, from my point of view, at a political level, it is virtually every day. From the point of view of my Department, significant engagement takes place each week. What is particularly disappointing in terms of the scale of the overrun in the Department of Health is that in the previous two years we had made significant progress in reducing the amount required by the Department via Supplementary Estimate. For a number of different reasons, we were not successful in maintaining that approach as we moved into this year. Let me put that in context. No Supplementary Estimate was needed in 2016 and €195 million was required in 2017. The position in 2016 and 2017 was a major improvement on previously. The difficulty the Government and I faced in 2018 is now well known.

The HSE, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the Department of Health now engage on a monthly basis with regard to how matters stand and do so in an even more intensive way than was the case in the past.

We now have a very clear idea by policy area in the Department of Health what figures need to look like on a monthly basis. In light of what happened last year, it is even more of a priority for me than it normally would be.

On the question about corporation tax, I have visited the United States twice since the middle of December. On one occasion, I visited policymakers in Washington where I met representatives of the Department of the Treasury, Department of State and Department of Commerce. Last week, I visited the west coast of America. It is apparent to me that the overall policy package we offer on corporation tax and in many other areas, most notably how we manage data policy, is an offering that will continue to be very competitive in 2019 and beyond.

There is a phone ringing.

My phone is on airplane mode. I do not know why it is ringing.

Is the Deputy scared to answer it?

It will not allow me to answer it.

We might-----

It is off now. They have given up.

Will the Minister continue?

I have answered the question.

Is Deputy Bailey happy with the Minister's answer?

I thank the Minister for his speech. To get back to the Brexit issue, in his budget speech the Minister stated:

Across the Government the necessary measures to prepare for Brexit are being put in place. These plans are based on a central case that there will be agreement in the coming weeks.

Clearly there has not been an agreement. The vote in the House of Commons last night, while expected, was extremely disappointing. It is difficult to see where we will go from here. I agree it is for the United Kingdom now to say where it wants to go but, nonetheless, we have to prepare as best we can for what could potentially be coming down the tracks. My concern is that all the eggs of Government are in the basket of getting a deal. Nobody wants to countenance the prospect that we potentially face a no-deal scenario, possibly at the end of March or a month or two thereafter.

I refer the Minister to the post-budget publications of the Parliamentary Budget Office, PBO. The office has done a significant amount of work based on an orderly Brexit being the central scenario for macroeconomic and fiscal forecasts for 2019. It states that "no sensitivity analysis has been provided by the Government on the impact of changes to the Irish output induced by a 'hard' Brexit on revenue and expenditure projections". Clearly budget 2019 was based on there being a deal, as the Minister has stated. He also said he took into account the potential of a no deal scenario but this does not appear to have been factored into the figures. The PBO made clear that analysis had not been done. What is the Minister's response to what the PBO has said? Does it impact on projected expenditure for 2019?

I will deal with each of the Deputy's points. I agree with her opening sentiment that the result last night in the House of Commons is exceptionally disappointing and concerning. As the Deputy stated, the responsibility sits with the British Government in terms of how it will move the issue forward and deal with the issues that developed in the debate. In so doing, the Taoiseach outlined today during Leaders' Questions the needs of the Irish Government and the European Union in terms of how the issue moves forward.

It is correct to say, as I did in my budget day speech, that the central scenario for my economic forecasting was based on there being a deal because when I put together my budgetary arithmetic on the overall model, that looked like the most likely scenario. As I said a moment ago to the Deputy's colleague, Deputy Michael McGrath, I am now conducting a further assessment, particularly in light of the scale of the defeat last night, of any impact that could develop in 2019 in terms of the scale of that impact on our economic forecasts for this year.

On the Deputy's next question on whether I believe it will have an impact on our expenditure plans for this year and any decisions in that area, the answer is "No." Our expenditure plans are laid out and I will provide a further assessment of the spending plans and our economic outlook through the stability programme update. At this point in time, I am clear they will stand and believe it will be the case for 2019. I will affirm that in my stability programme update.

In terms of the sensitivity analysis the PBO referred to, it underpins the figures published in chapter 6 of our report. Perhaps if I am in a position to give any further solid assessment of the impact of a no-deal Brexit in 2019, we can look at how it can be fleshed out further. With regard to how we prepared for different Brexit scenarios, there are many different elements I would refer to. The key one is we are increasing capital investment in the economy by 24%. Normally when a Government tries to make decisions about major increases in capital expenditure, the increases kick in when the point of uncertainty has passed in the economy. I timed the phasing of our capital expenditure to coincide with where we are with Brexit. Also, in budget 2019 there was an allocation of €115 million for different measures across different Departments to build on the investment we had in budget 2018.

On the Minister's response that he does not foresee any changes to projected expenditure for next year, I assume there will be reliance on the rainy day fund that is in place if extra money is needed. It is good to see Fianna Fáil policy was endorsed and accepted as prudent. A 24% increase in capital expenditure is welcome. It matters in terms of context what the baseline is, where it starts and from where it increases.

Has the Minister had frank discussions with the Ministers for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Agriculture, Food and the Marine or Education and Skills about what they might need for their Departments in the event of a no-deal Brexit? Has any other Minister requested additional money in the event of a no-deal Brexit?

With regard to whether I believe Brexit will impact on my current expenditure plans, I was referring to this year. The Deputy referred to next year.

I was referring to 2019 in the answer I gave the Deputy. The figures in the expenditure plans I have for 2019 are set. I am confident, as we move through 2019, that they will be maintained.

On the question about engagement with other Government Ministers regarding the different Brexit scenarios, all of the engagement we have had to date has dealt with different Brexit scenarios. Most of that engagement last year dealt with the central scenario, which was the assumption of a deal. In the latter part of last year and the early part of this year, there has been a very high level of engagement with a number of Departments on expenditure needs in a no-deal scenario. That has mostly been focused on how we would deal with some of the consequences of the need to get infrastructure in ports and airports in place more quickly than we assumed under an orderly exit. I will have even further engagement in the coming weeks with colleagues, particularly in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, regarding different issues they could see developing.

To clarify, if what is to be spent in 2019 is based on there being a deal and a central case, one would have to assume if there is no deal, the money required to be spent will increase. How can the Minister say he does not foresee any changes to expenditure regardless of Brexit?

I was referring to the negative effects we could have in Brexit in terms of the possibility of expenditure being reduced. What happens in any given year and has been the case for the past number of years is we can change our spending profiles within Departments in response to events that occur.

There would be a need to engage in that in the event of a disorderly Brexit and there are a couple of ways in which it could be done. We could look at where priority decisions need to be made in the context of the more imminent and urgent need which we would have or we could look at whether decisions need to be made on where current expenditure is allocated. I will work with all of my colleagues on this matter. I am very alive to the severe risk that a disorderly Brexit would pose to our economy. However, as I stated to each of the Deputy's committee colleagues, if it occurs, a disorderly Brexit will be a unique event. I will consider whether there is a need to review the understanding we have of a disorderly Brexit in the context of information that is emerging almost every day from the United Kingdom. I stress that many of the information and predictions emanating from the United Kingdom are based on a higher level of assumption than would normally be the case. When I have discussed the matter with the Government, I will make any updated information available to the committee and the Oireachtas.

I thank the Minister for his attendance. I wish to first focus on the issue of oversight and improving budget scrutiny, which is part of the remit of the committee. The Irish Fiscal Advisory Council, IFAC, criticised the Government's budget 2019 plans as not being credible. According to its chair, Mr. Seamus Coffey, previous budgets stuck to plans but in the most recent budget the Government did not do so, with the budget day package being larger than previously signalled and containing significantly greater within-year spending increases for 2018 with little or no saving elsewhere to offset them. Has the Minister issued a formal response to those concerns? Has the Department studied the concerns raised in the fiscal assessment report? What steps have been taken to address them?

IFAC also raised the issue of the Christmas bonus, pointing out that the budget is not realistic if it does not make provision for the Christmas bonus. The Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection, Deputy Regina Doherty, recently commented on this issue. I ask the Minister to consider committing to the Christmas bonus in next year's budget.

Health expenditure overruns have become commonplace. The committee has discussed this issue. What proactive steps are being taken to get to grips with it? Is the Minister fully satisfied by the quality of budget information that his Department receives and uses to monitor expenditure trends in health?

Reference has been made to Brexit. I ask the Minister to comment on the issue of illicit cross-Border trade, which will come to the fore in the case of a no-deal Brexit or otherwise. I have been raising this issue since I was elected to the Dáil. A Grant Thornton report on illicit trade was published some years ago. The Public Health (Alcohol) Act and the proposal of the Minister, Deputy Harris, to introduce minimum unit pricing will have a huge impact on retailers on the Border and beyond. I spoke on this matter today in the Chamber and I ask the Minister to address it further.

It is clear that if we do not get a handle on the issue of carbon taxes there will be a flood of illicit activity. That is already evident with regard to solid fuel. It has been brought to my attention that at the current estimated 10% evasion rate on solid fuel, approximately €12 million in carbon taxes and VAT is being foregone.

Such evasion could be greatly exacerbated by Brexit. I do not advocate any form of border controls. What steps are being taken by the Minister's Department to bring to heel the significant illicit trade in solid fuel and other products?

Of course, I have very carefully studied the assessment report of the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council. In each of the other two budgets in which I was involved as Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, the council did not raise issues of the kind it raised in the most recent report. That is one of the reasons I take what it has stated so seriously. I do not dismiss the views of the IFAC in any way. The Government and I need to take on board its analysis when moving into this year. I have not yet responded to the council but will do so in the coming days. The response will be in line with my remarks to the committee today. When I issue the letter, I will forward it to the committee as a follow-up on this meeting and it will be available on the website of my Department.

On the comments of the Minister, Deputy Regina Doherty, there is always an anticipation of and a need to fund a Christmas bonus. One issue I must consider is how any new funding method which the Government may believe necessary can be factored into our budgetary calculations. I look forward to discussing with the Minister how that could be done.

I completely understand the Deputy's point in regard to the Public Health (Alcohol) Act. I am more familiar than he might think with how supply chains work in the retail business. I understand how wholesale operators work and their ability to source any products, particularly alcohol, from multiple locations. I know what the grey market is. I assure Deputies that my involvement in it was always legal but I understand how it works because of my career before moving into politics. I know that a change in an indirect tax can have a far greater effect than is commonly understood and does not solely affect the tax base within this jurisdiction. I am aware of the comments of the Minister, Deputy Harris, on the Public Health (Alcohol) Act. The triggering of its provisions is a decision for him. I respect what he said. In the run-up to that decision, I will discuss the potential consequences with all members of the Government because everybody needs to be aware that there may be consequences if the price of a key wholesale good moves out of line with that in other markets with which we are integrated. This is an issue to which I will return.

On carbon tax, the situation highlighted by the Deputy underpins part of the reason why I did not move on carbon taxation in the budget. In the second half of 2018 there was neither a consensus nor an understanding on what a move on carbon taxation meant or its many consequences. I understand there is a need to raise carbon taxes and want to see how we can do so. Those who advocate for an increase need to be more clear on its various consequences. If our carbon taxation was out of line with that in other jurisdictions, it would change the costs of things that are very important to people's standard of living and would have an effect on other things within our economy, as indicated by the issue raised by the Deputy. That said, for many reasons we need to try to build a model for steadily changing carbon taxation and to indicate to citizens and investors that the price of carbon will rise in the medium run.

That will be a challenging piece of work for this year.

To follow up on that, was the key reason the Minister did nothing about carbon taxes not that the Government was hoping to have an early general election, which could have taken place by now? However, it was politically impossible. I notice that the Minister, or rather the Taoiseach, is talking about the tax-and-dividend approach now. This seems to imply that carbon taxation, which would hurt our poorer households, would eventually go back to people. Is the Minister saying that there is a very significant chance we will have to have a revised budget in 2019? Is that the reality, even in the present circumstances as the British Parliament goes into another important vote today? The Minister presented us with a proposal for an omnibus Bill with 17 sections. I asked him a question about that. His questions have been deferred. Has that been costed? Has the Minister costed the impact of going forward with some or all of that legislation?

I will ask the Minister again to return to the question that Deputy Breathnach asked about the fiscal assessment report of the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council, IFAC. Was it not an astonishing critique of the Minister's administration of the Department of Finance? The key points of that large report concerned 2018 spending, taken with the 2019 budget. The report says the plans are "not conducive to prudent economic and budgetary management". That is a very fundamental point. Professor Coffey and his colleagues write that repeated budgetary failures "have left the public finances more exposed to adverse shocks". The Minister has left us in more difficult circumstances because of his conduct of budgetary policy in 2018 and his plans for 2019. As my colleagues have said, the report states "the medium-term budgetary plans are not credible". The Minister has dropped previous medium-term plans and his current plans simply cannot be believed. Is that not a fundamental problem?

When he was here, I asked Professor Coffey about net policy spending, as did one or two other colleagues. It was quite clear that problems with corporation tax were inhibiting net policy spending rising in line with sustainable revenues. The Minister does not have a system of sufficiently sustainable revenues. That is the problem. He is talking about doing a report on it. IFAC did not say it to us, but elsewhere Professor Coffey has said that the Minister's fiscal approach has echoes of 2007. Is this not an incredibly severe critique, from the statutory Government body meant to oversee the work of the Minister and his two Departments on a whole range of areas, of how the Minister has computed spending for 2019 and exceeded in 2018? We gave the Minister some suggestions, like equalising diesel and petrol revenues. The Minister was not prepared to get the additional revenue necessary. One journalist noted that Professor Coffey is a hurler - he is a goalie, actually - and said he gave the Minister and his Departments a fairly severe rap of the hurley. Is that not a fair assessment of the report? It is a very damning assessment, given the era during which the Minister is in charge of the Department.

I wish to ask the Minister about health spending. Is the budget oversight group consisting of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, the Department of Health and the HSE up and running so that we can get adequate forecasting? It was our committee, as the Minister will remember, and colleagues beside me who identified the huge lacuna in health spending for 2018. The Minister had to come forward with a Supplementary Estimate of more than €655 million. Is he beginning to get a grip on that in any way? Ordinary citizens are quite upset and horrified at the huge escalation in the cost of the children's hospital and the fact that every time we look at it, or any time Deputy Donohoe, the Minister for Health or the Taoiseach talks to us, the price of the hospital is higher.

Looking back at the record, the Minister's old constituency colleague, former Deputy Ahern, played a nefarious role in that whole matter by interfering in it and postponing the location and building of the hospital. It could have been built by now.

I thank Deputy Broughan. His five minutes are up and I am holding him to them, as I have held every other Deputy.

I thank the Deputy for his questions. The only commitment I have given is that if information on the likely effects of a disorderly Brexit on our economy becomes available to me, I will make this information available in advance of when I normally would, that is, in the stability programme update. At no point in this meeting have I said that there would be a need for a new budget this year. My spending and tax plans for this year will be kept in place. As I said to Deputy Lisa Chambers, if we have to deal with new risks that develop this year concerning our response to a disorderly Brexit, I will work on those within the Government. If we face an exceptionally serious shock, the key change will arise from the automatic stabilisers in our budget. It will have an effect on where we are with regard to the challenge of balancing our books in 2019. As that information becomes available to me, I will update the House on it. The only thing I will say in that context is that our budgetary performance for 2018 is better than I have indicated to date or than I indicated on budget day. I have acknowledged that much of that was driven by the increase in corporation tax in the fourth quarter and some of the corporation tax raised was not spent. That higher level of corporation tax has not been built into our economic figures for this year.

Regarding what the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council, IFAC, has said about this budget, as I said, I take what the IFAC says seriously. I am taking it on board. The IFAC raised issues around budgets in other years. Let us acknowledge that. Clearly it has raised this criticism to a higher level in its recent commentary. Whether it is a hurl or whatever, I will take whatever it has said on board and look at how it can be implemented in 2019.

In regard to whether our group has met to manage health expenditure, I note that my colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and I have met twice on this topic in January. I have engaged with the Department of Health on it. We never anticipated sitting down in the way I have outlined until we have at least six to eight weeks' expenditure available to us. It is only then that we will have a sense of any particular trends developing in any part of our health service. We will be doing that.

In answer to what the Deputy has said about the budget, there were forecasts and expectations that every single budget I have been involved in would be an election budget. That election has still not materialised. The Government of which I am a member and the main Opposition party will continue to work together throughout 2019 to deal with the big challenge that we have.

I thank the Minister and his officials for their service. This is the Committee on Budgetary Oversight and we are entitled to slightly more detailed responses to some of the questions put by some of the previous speakers. Let us look at a summary of the criticism of the Minister's budget. Some of the critiques have been mentioned. It was premised on the idea of an orderly Brexit. It is pro-cyclical, with no evidence of counter-cyclical measures. Moreover, the Minister has been promising budget surpluses since 2016 and he is back here today promising them again.

The improvements in the general budgetary situation in Ireland have stalled since 2015, and that stall has happened in spite of strong national and international recoveries and a supportive monetary environment internationally with low interest rates. The Minister continues to be over-reliant on corporation tax despite continuous warnings. In the period between June 2018 and September 2018, just four months, the Minister increased projected spending by €1.1 billion. His budget is not consistent with prudent budget management and he has introduced difficult to reverse increases in spending. His budget involves failures which represent a repeat of the policy mistakes of the past and the public finances have been left in a more exposed position to adverse shocks. His budgetary plans for the future lack credibility and he fudged any climate change measures in the budget in a week it was announced that Ireland was second worst in the European Union with regard to climate change and in respect of any other measures aside from the carbon tax. The Minister's three-year budget ceilings are not working, with repeated procyclical, upward revisions to the ceilings. Health spending and the lack of inclusion of the Christmas bonus alone, not to mind overruns in other Departments, pose upward risks to expenditure in 2019. The Minister is dependent on windfall receipts, which are being used for day-to-day spending, while revenue growth has been supported by short-term cyclical developments.

Learning from the mistakes of the past is a common theme in his speeches. Those who were there in the past can argue that the only person who said there was a problem coming down the line was a little known economist in UCD. All the other agencies, including the Central Bank and the ESRI, spoke about soft landings. However, the Minister has been getting warnings and they are escalating, particularly from the IFAC. He did not refer to the PBO's report on the budget or the submission made by this committee. For all the Minister's talk about prudence and having learned the lessons from the past, these comments are made not by journalists but by statutory agencies, as Deputy Broughan said. The Minister has not given us a comprehensive response to a quite damning indictment of the measures. In summary, he does not appear to be heeding the advice he is being given. In further summary, he appears to be repeating the exact mistakes that were made.

The Deputy made a number of points. I am not sure where the questions were in his comments but I will respond to his points. He also made an assertion earlier that I had not responded to a number of questions that were put to me. That is not the case. However, any Deputy who is unhappy with an answer I have given has the option of putting another question to me or to ask the question again, which I will answer.

Regarding the overall point made by the Deputy, I will give him another set of figures in that regard, notwithstanding the fact that I have made it clear that I acknowledge the views published by the IFAC and will seek to take them on board for 2019. The other figures are, as I said in my opening statement, that between 2014 and 2019 gross voted expenditure increased by 23% in comparison to the period the Deputy refers to when the comparable figure was 63%. He asked what I am doing differently from what was done previously. The answer is a rate of current and capital expenditure growth that is significantly below what happened in the past.

The fact that in each of my budgets the criticism from some has been that the change in take-home pay has been only €5 a week for many people shows that I have been careful not to put in place taxation policies that could contribute to an overheating of the economy on top of the income growth that is taking place. The Deputy asked what is different in the current position from the period to which he is referring. The two significant measures that are different, and which I put in place, are a significantly lower rate of expenditure growth and taxation packages which in all cases are below the cost of indexing our tax code and which many have argued are not adding to individuals' take-home pay. One of the reasons I have taken that approach is that I am aware of the risk of tax packages that move in the cycle of economic growth. It is the type of approach that happened in the past and it is one I am not maintaining.

More broadly, in my many years of dealing with this issue and with this committee, I have never yet heard a charge from a Deputy that I am spending too much. That charge has not been levelled at me. I have never had an appearance before this committee where the mainstream charge has been that the rate of total Government expenditure is too high. The charge I always face is the need to spend more. The Deputy's party in recent months has been calling on me to spend more than €3.4 billion more. As I am privileged to hold this office, the responsibility ultimately lies with me in terms of the decisions that are made. What is different from the past are rates of expenditure that are significantly lower and income tax and social welfare packages that are considerably lower because the higher rates in the past ultimately proved to be unaffordable.

The Deputy makes the further point that if there are warnings, we should take them on board. I aim to do that. I have outlined what we are going to do this year, particularly in health. I also point to other things that were in place by the end of last year such as establishing the rainy day fund and the fact that we finished last year in surplus as opposed to having a deficit. The Deputy made a point that is incorrect, although he was repeating a charge that has been made by others. It is the assertion that at various stages I said I was going to move to a surplus in a budget in which I was involved. I have never done that. At each point I have said I will reduce our deficit, and in each budget we have over-delivered on our target. I have never said in a budget I have delivered that we will move to a surplus in that year and then missed that commitment. That has not happened.

IFAC made the-----

The Deputy has ten seconds to be fair to Deputy Broughan, for example, who observed his time limit.

We will have another round as well. In fact, the IFAC made the point that the Minister committed to budget surpluses in 2016 for 2018 and in 2017 for 2019 so it is not my assertion. None of the assertions I made is personal. They are all from the reports of the PBO, the Governor of the Central Bank and IFAC. This is not a political charge as this is the Committee on Budgetary Oversight. Any of the statements I made were in that context.

In responding to the Deputy, I said that he was repeating the assertions of others. I acknowledged that.

I accept that.

In particular, there was the point he made about a surplus-----

The Minister said in any one year.

What I am saying is the case. I said two things: first, that the Deputy was repeating the assertions of others, which he is and as I have acknowledged, and, second, that in the budget I have delivered in any given year I have either met or exceeded any target I have set in that year from a surplus or deficit point of view.

That has been the case in my two budgets as Minister for Finance. To return to the tone of all this, the Deputy is referring to institutions, one of which is independent of me, the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council, IFAC, which has raised a particular issue for 2018 on unplanned expenditure which mostly centres on what happens in the Department of Health. That change in the Department of Health was very different from the previous two years when I was involved in that issue, and I acknowledge that in 2019 we need to find ways of doing it differently. That is what I am working to. However, I stand by the point I made in terms of the rate of expenditure growth and the combined impact of tax and social welfare packages. They are of a different magnitude to where we were at this point in the proceeding economic cycle.

I welcome the Minister and his team. When will he respond to the IFAC assessment of budget 2019?

Within the next week.

It is a pity that response was not on the public record that we could digest it because I expect it will be much more detailed than the Minister's opening statement to the committee. It would have been more efficient had we seen some of that detailed response.

If I may respond, I am currently working on the draft because I work on all these things myself. It will be in line with what I have told the committee. What will be different from what I have had the opportunity to say in the committee so far is that I believe the decisions that we made in relation to the VAT rate could have got more prominence in the discussion since the budget. I am due to appear before the committee again in a number of weeks on other matters and I will be happy to deal with that point again at that meeting.

My point was just about timing. The Minister has heard about IFAC's critique from other colleagues. There are no two ways about it, that IFAC has taken off its gloves on 2019. Other members have commented on how it says it is not conducive to prudent economic and budgetary management, how it is not consistent with prudent budgetary management, that medium budgetary plans are not credible and it goes on and on. Does the Minister dispute the specific charges Professor Coffey and his team are making about budget 2019.

I believe that the budget which we put in place is a sensible budget and the one that was best available for me to deliver to this Oireachtas. I do not accept that it was a reckless budget. There are specific points in the IFAC report that I accept. The ones I particularly accept, which the Deputy has outlined, relate to where we are with unplanned expenditure, particularly in health, and its impact on medium-term forecasts. I accept those points.

The report does not simply single out health in medium-term budgetary plans. It gives a full graph and highlights every one that the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council believes lacks credibility. It is very clear. It states:

Aside from some allowances for demographics, and a ramp-up in public investment, departmental ceilings are largely flat for later years. This implies implausibly large and sustained decreases in non-interest spending as a share of GNI*.

It is saying that what the Minister is presenting is that the Government will spend less money than it will actually end up spending. The fiscal advisory council is saying very clearly that the Government needs to spend more money in each of these areas, and that is the reality, but that the figures projected by the Department are not credible. It is not just on health. The only reason it said that is because the Department has only dealt with demographics and inflation but there are other pressures that will be in those Departments during those years. Does the Minister not accept that?

This is one of the areas on which I take a different view because decisions are made each year, budget to budget, that are the result of policy decisions which must be made by the Government of the day. Different Ministers for Finance and different Governments in the future - obviously, I hope the current Government continues for as long as possible - must make decisions each year in relation to their service priorities.

I have told the Deputy what I accept in respect of what it has stated with regard to the Department of Health. In particular, I have said that I accept what it says about some of the consequences of this on the medium-term forecasting. Where I differ is in my belief that some of the assessment undervalues the fact that any Government on budget day must be able to make its own policy priorities and must be able to make discretionary expenditure decisions. Those must be funded and in many cases must be built on to medium-term forecasts that are published.

Does the Minister stand by the fact that under his proposals as outlined, expenditure as a percentage of GNI* will fall by 2.5% between 2019 and 2023? That is a dramatic decrease in expenditure in this State. It is not credible. Everyone in this room knows that this is not credible. It will not happen.

What I expect will happen is that as we move through these budgets, decisions will be made in respect of maintaining services in some areas, on new services in others and with regard to capital expenditure, which will change that.

That is the point-----

The Deputy might let the Minister answer and then he can come back in. It will make for a better flow.

I was going to say-----

I do not know about a better flow-----

I will chair this meeting, thank you.

That is fair enough. I will conclude my point and then respond to the Deputy. From much of the thinking I have read on medium-term forecasts, my view is that it underestimates the fact that a Government of the day will have to make policy choices in three different areas, that is, does it retain services in a particular area, does it need new services or does it need to change levels of capital expenditure? Therefore my view is that as future budgets are done, regardless of whether I or other Ministers have the opportunity to do them, the share of Government expenditure as a percentage of GNI* will at least stay constant, if not grow, and taxation decisions will have to be made in order to do that or decisions will have to be made not to do other things.

I appreciate that and will move onto another point on which the Minister may pick up at the end. The figures the Minister is presenting for the latter three years have no value to this committee or to external people looking in because they are not credible because, as the Minister says, he will not reduce expenditure by 2.5%. Why then present them in the first place? He still has the flexibility to change the figures but to present figures that we know are rubbish because they all will be increased devalues the work of this committee and the work that is being undertaken by his officials.

I have two questions which I will lump together. IFAC made stinging criticisms of the budget. Did officials in the Department provide the Minister with any of that type of advice? Hopefully they did. I am not sure if the Wright report recommendation has been implemented that all decisions about budgetary matters by officials are written down and are available through freedom of information after a period, but I hope to God that some people are speaking up.

I refer to contingency planning for Brexit and one risk that has been highlighted in the IFAC report. What engagement has the Minister had with Revenue officials? What preparedness is taking place by Revenue officials? At the British Irish Chamber of Commerce meeting that took place late last year, which the Minister, Deputy Creed attended, a senior Revenue official spoke of it doing contingency planning in terms of agricultural products that would need to be checked at the Border. My question is genuine and sincere, now that we are 70 days away from a potential no-deal Brexit, which none of us want to see. Is the Minister aware of Revenue undertaking any contingency plans about checks at the Border or customs controls? We know that when the internal 2017 report was leaked by journalists, the Government told Revenue to stop preparing. We are now 70 days away from Brexit. Is there any preparedness? Is the Minister meeting with officials? Is the issue of Border checks or checks along the Border on the agenda?

Has the Minister had any discussions about that? While I understand that Revenue officials will appear before the committees, at this point in time we have to have an honest discussion about this.

The Deputy has put five different points to me. He asked whether my officials give me advice about-----

That was not the question I asked. I asked whether the advice given is similar to that given by IFAC.

I thought he said advice, but I will deal with that question.

Of course the Minister's officials give him advice.

They certainly give me advice. We all worked very hard in the run-up to budget 2019, in the context of many competing pressures, to put together the best possible budget that could be implemented. I take some specific points on board but I differ in that I believe this is a budget which, by virtue of the rate of expenditure growth, the moving to a balance and then a surplus last year, meets key needs within our economy. I of course am aware of the heightened level of risk we now face but I make the point that most of the engagement the Deputy and I have had has been about his view that I should spend more.

I spoke about sustainable resources.

He suggested that I should spend more. The key proposal that he put on the table on how we should raise revenue in order that we can spend more was centred on the corporation tax. He voted against all the measures we brought in on budget day that sought to pay for the expenditure growth that is now being challenged. It is important to remember-----

That is not true.

-----when the Deputy is making his points that he voted against-----

That is not true.

He voted against the betting levy and the VAT rate and his main proposal was that the rate of corporation tax should be raised.

The Minister should look at the Finance Bill.

The Deputy should let the Minister answer.

These are key facts and I am happy to engage in as much debate around them as the Deputy wishes.

On the particular questions he asked about Brexit-----

Can the Minister answer-----

-----on whether I have met the Revenue Commissioners-----

Can I ask the Chair-----

-----we have just had an exchange in which we agreed-----

The Minister does not want to answer the question as to whether any of his officials raised the same concerns I have. He prides himself in being able to answer questions.

It is good to allow a person to finish his or her sentences.

It is obvious that the Minister's officials had the same concerns.

Deputy Pearse Doherty should please let the Minister reply.

I am happy to come back to the Deputy on this matter.

The Minister should just answer the question.

I will come back to the question about officials but I will answer the questions he asked about Brexit, because he asked me some very specific and important questions on that topic. He asked me whether I had met the Revenue Commissioners to discuss Brexit. I met all of the Revenue Commissioners to discuss this growing risk in the second half of last year. The Secretary General of the Department of Finance, some of our officials and I had a lengthy meeting about some of the scenarios we might have to deal with this year. In advance of getting to this point, I had a very substantive engagement with all of the key members of Revenue on this. I have had at least one further meeting and discussion with the Revenue Commissioners to discuss the point since then, and my officials have had a significant amount of engagement with the Revenue Commissioners on this. This engagement significantly preceded today's debate.

The Deputy asked whether we have made any decisions on introducing checks on the Border. The answer is no, we have not. Any preparatory work happening is being done at locations I already have identified, or those identified by the Taoiseach, that is, key ports which take in the majority of our goods. However, we are not doing anything outside of the public information I have shared. Both of my Departments have had a very large amount of engagement with the Revenue Commissioners and the Office of Public Works on how we can make this happen. In the event of a no-deal Brexit occurring, we will be doing all we can to cope with the consequences that will flow from that from a customs point of view. As I said to Deputy Michael McGrath, unknowns will develop in the area of the movement of goods and the potential customs consequences of that. We will plan to deal with that as best we can but we are now in new territory.

These are the answers to the Deputy's questions.

I will deal with the question of the advice given to me by my officials directly. I cannot recall what the precedent is on sharing advice I receive from officials but I will tell the Deputy that I did not do anything on budget day that was outside of the advice given to me by the Department of Finance or the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. We faced cascading demands in the run-up to the budget and are aware of the challenges and vulnerabilities we could face now. However, every time I appear before a committee, I am faced with demands to spend more. I reiterate Deputy Pearse Doherty voted against the tax measures that have funded the additional expenditure the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council is now criticising.

On a point of order-----

With respect, the Chairman is always fair, and I believe I stayed within my five minutes in terms of the questions. I asked two further questions that the Minister should be allowed to answer. They were about the recommendations of the Wright report, and whether all advice to the Minister is written down and available after the five-year period under freedom of information provisions. It is important to clarify.

I missed those questions and I will answer them. All advice given to me is available in written format. We have a certain process within the Government and every decision I have to make is provided to me in written format. The advice contains the perspectives of the relevant Department. I have ample meetings and a large amount of engagement with my officials on, perhaps not every single decision, but on key decisions we have to make. In that context I tease out many different options for each decision. Every decision I make, as Minister for Finance, is in written format. I do not know whether it is available within a certain time period. If any of my colleagues know the answer to that they will tell me and if they do not, I will revert to the committee.

For housekeeping purposes and to make things clear, within the five-minute period in the first round of questions, if a member has not used the full five minutes, he or she has every right to come back in and chase down an answer he or she might feel was not given. There will be no attempt on my part to shut that down. If a member has used his or her five minutes and the Minister has replied in the full five minutes, there will be a second round to follow up.

For clarification purposes, the Minister should note that he is due before the Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach, rather than this committee again. He mentioned that he would be before this committee again but I do not think that is the case. We will have a break at 5.15 p.m. because the Minister is due in the Chamber then, and three more Deputies are waiting to come in during this round. It would be great if they could all be heard before 5.15 p.m. in order to facilitate our colleagues, who have been here since the outset.

As a point of order, Deputy Pearse Doherty asked me a question about the written advice I receive. The answer is that it will be available within the five-year period.

I want to focus on the health budget. The Minister spoke briefly about it when answering questions from other Deputies. How is he proposing to get a grip on the health budget in the future? Can he recap on some of the measures being taken?

While acknowledging the difficulties we had in 2018, I wish to make the point that for 2016 and 2017, we either did not have a Supplementary Estimate or it was significantly lower than was the case last year. On the question of what we are doing to mitigate this risk, we are dealing with the development of the potential risk on a month-by-month basis as opposed to addressing it on a quarterly basis. My Department is now directly involved in a process with the HSE and with the Department of Health that will take place every month.

That has not yet been triggered because we are only in the second week of January and I need to have a number of weeks of expenditure under my belt before we can do it.

The Supplementary Estimate last year was for €200 million. While the Estimate for the year before that was not classed as a Supplementary Estimate, there was a Revised Estimate of €500 million in 2016. Therefore, the combined figure for the last two years is €700 million. While one can class the figure for last year as significantly lower, in 2016 some €500 million was allocated in a Revised Estimate.

I have some concerns about the month-by-month monitoring that will now take place and how the system will work. Perhaps the Minister might talk me through it. Already there are monthly performance data between the HSE and the Department of Health. If they are not able to indicate that there will be a significant overrun, what is going to be different in the monthly reporting system that is to be set up between the HSE, the Department of Health and the Minister's Department?

The HSE publishes performance profiles quarterly.

Yes, that is correct.

It also produces a separate monthly report. The information we were given by Mr. Colm Desmond was that in the performance accountability framework between the HSE and the Department of Health there was a monthly data report which was discussed between it and the Department.

I understand the Deputy's question. I am sorry I had misunderstood it. At the discretion of the Chairman, I do not want the Deputy to lose any of his time for questioning because I got it wrong. I will address what is different in how we will now do it. There has been a process between the Department of Health and the HSE. Now my Department will also be involved in it.

That indicates that there were monthly reports between the Department of Health and the HSE which were not being passed on to the Minister's Department which showed significant overruns on a month by month basis. Perhaps the Minister might clarify whether that was the case.

They were not being shared with us in a way that would have allowed us to understand fully the drivers and what needed to be done to address the issue. That is why my Department will now be participating in the process. I have no doubt at all that if I had gone into the Dáil to reduce health expenditure by €645 million across 2018, it would have caused a significant reaction and had service consequences for which I would have been subjected to a lot of criticism. Therefore, we are putting in place the process I have outlined for the Deputy.

Does the Minister accept that this applies to the figures included in the health budget announced for last year? At this committee in December Mr. Michael Tutty from the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council said:

Some €700 million does not just suddenly arrive as the year goes on, there has to have been a shortfall right from the start in the figures. We need to find a mechanism where correct or reasonable forecasts are given in the budget, rather than unrealistic ones.

Would the Minister agree?

I accept the point that one does not suddenly find out in September that there are issues. However, in the summer economic statement and the update I gave in September before the announcement of the budget in October, I flagged that there was a health expenditure overrun. In the summer economic statement I identified an expenditure risk which fluctuated during the year and was the subject of a lot of work, especially during the summer. It led to the figure on which the Deputy is quizzing me. I called it publicly as a risk, both in the summer economic statement and the stability programme update that preceded it.

I have a final question in this area. The month by month reports between the Department of Health and the HSE are now to be shared with the Minister's Department. What is the timelag in the provision of data? Mr. Colm Desmond has said there is a timelag which makes it more difficult to estimate the size of overruns. Will the Minister give us an indication as to whether the timelag is one, two or three months? How old are the data discussed each month?

It depends on whether the Deputy is talking about income or expenditure. If he is talking about expenditure, the timelag can be between three and five days, but normally we know within one week what has happened in the previous month. If the data are for income, the timelag can be considerably longer; it could be months. This refers particularly to the challenge in collecting income from the insurance sector.

On the rainy day fund and its potential use, can we, first, have clarification that it cannot be used to offset any impact Brexit, including a no-deal Brexit, could have?

As I said, I am not changing my assumptions and the announcements I made in budget 2018. The first opportunity I will have to present a revised update on any policy decision will be in the stability programme update. I am still anticipating that we will be standing by many of the macroeconomic choices and commitments I made, especially the rainy day fund. That is my view, but I am mindful of the great risks posed by Brexit. I am very mindful of the way in which it might impact on the budget and where we will end up with automatic stabilisers and either a balanced budget, a surplus or a deficit. I will comment further on the matter in the stability programme update. In the last two days I have met the Governor of the Central Bank and the chairman of National Treasury Management Agency and discussed where we stand this week in the context of Brexit.

Is it not true that under EU fiscal rules, the rainy day fund cannot be used to mitigate the effects of Brexit?

As the Deputy is aware, within the European Commission there is a definition of an "exceptional event". That definition will require teasing out in the context of how the rainy day fund will work. We are facing a great unknown in terms of what a disorderly Brexit could look like. The plans for the rainy day fund stand. I was due to take the legislation dealing with fund last night in the Dáil. If there is a need to make any change, I can deal with it via the update I will give in April or the legislation.

Therefore, it is unknown at this stage whether the fund could be used in the context of Brexit. We do know that it could be used to recapitalise banks.

I have no intention of using it to recapitalise banks-----

But it could be used to bail out banks.

We have a number of funds available for that purpose such as the European Stability Mechanism and the Single Resolution Fund, rather than the Single Resolution Mechanism. Why is the Deputy arguing that the fund could be used to bail out a bank?

I believe people should know that we are putting money away that could end up being used to bail out banks. That is a fair analysis.

That is not my intention, nor do I anticipate that it will be used for that purpose.

The Minister has not ruled it out either, on the advice of his Department.

There are so many risks. We have no expectation or need, either now, in the medium term or beyond, to do it.

In particular, as the Deputy is aware, we have just put in place at home and within the European Union a very extensive legal framework to prevent the taxpayer from having to make capital injections into banks or minimise the risk thereof. We have put in place a very extensive process to seek to resolve issues in banks before there is a need for capital injections.

I am just pointing out that the fund can be used to bail out banks and that we do not even know whether it can be used to offset the impact of Brexit. Am I not making an accurate statement?

What I am trying to be clear about is that if the economy takes a very big hit because of Brexit - I have outlined all of the difficulties in indicating what the hit would be - I will consider all of the options available to me to help the economy to respond. There are many options that will be open to me if we reach that point, but it is not my intention to do what the Deputy has indicated, nor do I anticipate any need to use the fund for bank recapitalisation. In fact, across 2018 we saw the position on non-performing loans in the banks improve significantly by comparison with where we were. The capital status of many of the banks improved significantly.

In my last 30 seconds I wish to ask the Minister about nurses' pay. It is a budgetary issue and, as members of the Committee on Budgetary Oversight, we should be allowed to address it. Strike action has been notified. How will the Minister deal with the issue? Is he willing to engage directly with the nurses' union on it? How does he propose to resolve it?

We are working on it. The HSE and the representatives of the nurses met yesterday afternoon and a further meeting is to take place on Friday between all of the unions involved in the management of the current wage agreement.

Is the Minister willing-----

We have exceeded the time allocated, unless the Deputy is very quick.

In fairness to the Deputy, I shall develop the answer to the question he put to me. I am willing to work with the Department of Health and the HSE to consider ways in which the issue can be resolved, but I am not willing to put in place any measure that would undermine the national wage agreement. That has happened already in this Dáil in another part of the civil and public service. When in one part of the public service there is an increase in allowances or wages, within 24 hours there is an expectation that everybody else will receive the same. I imagine Deputy Boyd Barrett will say to me that that is what he would want to see happen, but the challenge I would face is paying for it. I do not want to see the national wage agreement unravel.

I believe I have five seconds more.

Five seconds.

This illustrates the problem with collective wage agreements. The Chairman has granted Deputy O'Brien five seconds, but Deputy Pearse Doherty is asking why he has been deprived.

It is being done in spite of me.

That illustrates my challenge. The Deputy is laughing only out of grace.

Does the Minister recognise or give any credence to the argument that pay is a factor in the recruitment and retention of nurses? Leaving aside what may happen-----

The Deputy has used his five seconds.

-----does the Minister at least agree that pay is a factor in retention and recruitment?

We have acknowledged that some allowances, in particular, were contributing to some of the challenges, but that is why I have agreed to change them.

The cost of the demands the nursing unions are articulating would be €300 million. If I were to make any change in a pay rate, it would have to be done for everybody. We made an agreement with many unions and said there was only a certain amount available for public pay in any given year. If the integrity of that commitment was to be undermined, the need would crystallise immediately for money to be made available to everybody. The challenges we would then face with unplanned expenditure would be immense by comparison with some of the issues we are debating.

I want to follow on directly from that. I was talking to representatives of the INMO. To cut a long story short, they stated the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform had sanitised and gutted the HSE's submission. It was then put together as a joint submission to the Public Service Pay Commission. The HSE's submission to the Minister which is not the submission made to the pay commission stated retention was a big problem and that pay was a factor. Essentially, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform gutted that submission because the Minister did not want to acknowledge the problem politically.

This is related to the criticism about not accurately estimating expenditure to be incurred. The Minister is not facing the reality which then just comes back and bites him. In this case, it is going to come back and bite him in the form of a nurses' strike. The dogs on the street know that pay is at the base of the failure to recruit nurses. For every four nursing posts advertised, there is only one application. There are nearly 2,000 fewer nurses in the public health service today than in 2008. We are not able to recruit them. Meanwhile, the number of health managers is burgeoning. The costs arise because the Minister is failing to address the underlying problem. I would like a direct answer to the question as to whether the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform gutted or sanitised the HSE's submission that acknowledged there was a major retention problem and that the problem was related to pay.

I have seen the document from the INMO that shows substantial passages in which the HSE acknowledges the problem. I do not have time to quote them now. The Minister's answer is not accurate. The passages do not appear in the joint submission made to the Public Service Pay Commission.

I stand by what I said to the Deputy. Of course, there was engagement between my Department and the Department of Health on a submission on recruitment and retention. It happened because my Department has overall policy responsibility for staffing, recruitment and pay for all public services. As part of the process in that regard, we examined extensively the data available for recruitment and retention in the health service. The Deputy has made a point about what is happening with the number of nurses in the health service. The figures available to me indicate that nurse numbers have been increasing steadily since 2013, by on average of 2.2% every year. The view reached on whether there was a recruitment or retention difficulty in the health service was not one that was reached by my Department but by the Public Service Pay Commission. The commission stated it did not believe there was a general issue in recruitment and retention in the health service, but it went on to state it believed there were issues in the nursing sector, be they related to profession or geography, and recommended proposals to address them. I accept that.

It would appear that part of the reason the Public Service Pay Commission did not acknowledge that there was a retention problem was because the submission from the HSE, which stated there was a retention problem, did not get to it. Essentially, key passages were gutted. In the joint submission from the employers, namely, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the HSE, all of the references to the retention problem were removed.

Another submission asserting other than what I have done or what the submission did would have been sent from the INMO and all of the unions that were active in the health service. The body that adjudicated over that was not the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, but the Public Service Pay Commission, which is independent of me. Some of its report's recommendations caused challenges. For example, it made a recommendation on changing allowances, which I had not done previously. I have accepted its analysis. My Department did not make a determination on the issue. We are basing our analysis on an independent body that has an independent board.

That is not what I hear. I hear that the Department influenced and sanitised the submission from the HSE. I have seen evidence showing that. Anyway, I have made my point.

No. On whether we influenced the submission, we had an engagement with the HSE. That happens all of the time. My Department had responsibility for some key areas. We engaged with the HSE on the submission, as we will with every Department on its views on recruitment and retention, but with respect to the Deputy's good self, I categorically reject any view that we gutted that submission.

My second point is on the same issue. The Minister is misleading the public and being disingenuous by referring to a €300 million cost in respect of the nurses' pay demands. He is not acknowledging that there will be significantly increased tax as a result of that and the additional recruitment. He is not acknowledging the savings that will be made in the payment of agency nurses, which runs at approximately €2 million per week. He is not acknowledging the fact that, to recruit nurses from overseas, we are paying foreign companies €10,000 per recruit, and we are still not recruiting enough people. Should the Minister not acknowledge that the price tag of €300 million is an exaggeration that he is using to deflect from the legitimacy of the nurses' pay claim?

I do not accept that for a moment. What I have said is the pay cost of their claim is €300 million, plus the €115 million to €120 million that would be the consequence of meeting the need for increased continuing professional development hours. These are the figures I stand by. The increased wages would generate a higher level of tax revenue, but every other public servant would then come looking for the same increase. The Deputy charges me with being disingenuous, so I will in turn ask him to acknowledge that, for every move made for one part of our public service, the cost will be many multiples of that because everyone else will come looking for the same treatment. That has happened before and will happen again.

Yes, it probably would happen. I have some sympathy for the Minister when he gets criticised for spending too much only for the same people to demand he spend more, but he cannot level that charge at us.

We supported the VAT increase. We proposed measures like increasing employer's PRSI, financial transaction taxes and wealth taxes, which would have generated the necessary revenue. Is the IFAC not correct when it says that the Minister is not acknowledging the real costs that will be incurred and the expenditures that he will have to make? To plug the gap, he is using unsustainable corporate tax revenues when he should be contemplating other areas of taxation like those I have mentioned, closing corporate tax loopholes and so on.

The Deputy and I have debated each of those measures. I would argue that many of his proposals would destroy jobs and investment in our economy.

As I will indicate in my letter, a key issue that should have been considered in the ensuing debate is that I made a decision to change a significant tax rate to pay for much of the additional expenditure that followed. Of course, as the Deputy acknowledged, he voted for that.

I thank the Chairman for facilitating our contributions before 5.15 p.m. I thank the Minister and his officials for attending. In our post-budget scrutiny, it is right to acknowledge that, for the first time in more than a decade, our public finances are balanced in cash terms and we are in surplus territory. It is no mean achievement by the Minister, his predecessor, Deputy Noonan, and the officials who have worked with them down the years that we have got the country's economy back on track to that extent. It has been crucial for all of us, given the demands and pressures across society that must be funded. I welcome the considerable increases in spending in our health service, housing and education and, through Project Ireland 2040, the crucial 25% increase in infrastructural capital spending.

Regarding the comments on the IFAC report, I am mindful of the fact that the European Commission, whose job it is to assess formally our compliance with EU fiscal rules, has assessed budget 2019 as being compliant and has projected that we will achieve our medium-term objectives. That must be taken on board in any analysis of the IFAC report, which was published around the same time.

What analysis has the Department done of the impact on the economy of the increases in capital spending this year? If the Minister answers that question first, I will then ask about corporation tax.

The capital expenditure that we have embarked on will have a number of second round effects within the economy because it will act as a multiplier and a boost as investment increases. We did not build those second round impacts into our forecast in a significant way because they are difficult to forecast.

One of the increasing challenges that we are facing from an investment point of view, and one that is changing even more quickly than I had anticipated, is the growing number of large capital projects that we are competing with the private sector to make happen. Even in 2018, there was an acceleration in the number of large projects that the private sector wanted to deliver. This is something that, as we move through 2019 and become clear on where we stand with Brexit, will have to be a factor in our capital project decisions in 2019 and 2020. The growing feedback that I have been given is that, for example, the electrical engineers whom we need to be involved in building our primary care centres and national children's hospital are the same ones for whom there is a growing demand in the building of data centres and other new facilities.

Given that development, I will flag an issue that we are reflecting on currently, namely, the question of whether we need to move the decision point for finally saying "Yes" to projects above a certain level to later in the process. We are seeing a greater degree of change in tender pricing and credible estimates than would have been expected. While that is happening for good reasons, it is having an impact on the public finances, for which I am responsible.

Is the Minister saying that he is worried about value for money in some of the larger projects or about there not being enough skilled workers to see all of them through at the same time?

My particular concern at the moment is that we have a number of complicated public goods or projects requiring a high level of skill that we need to deliver through the public service.

I have seen within the private sector a growing appetite in also delivering intensive and complex projects. What is different for us now is we are not only competing for, for example, the engineers to do that work within the private sector in Ireland but also within the private sector across Europe. Large companies, the skills and staff of which we need to deliver projects here, are looking at attractive big projects taking place across Europe and private sector projects within Ireland, and that is all going into the mix in the tendering decisions they make. That is happening quickly now. For example, across Europe we will see big changes in how other countries respond to the climate change agenda. That will involve complex, intensive projects. Those needed to do that work are the same people we need to deliver projects in our country. That is a development that is happening more quickly than I thought likely across 2018.

That is probably a direct result of the lost decade as well and trying to get so much work started.

Yes, and other European economies trying to catch up on that as well.

I thank the Minister. On corporation tax and our reliance on it, what proportion of overall income is made up of corporation tax now compared with historical levels and to what extent is the increase in corporation tax based on underlying corporate profitability as opposed to one-off factors? Would the Minister have data on that?

It now stands at 19%. It used stand at 14% to 15%. In terms of the degree to which that over-performance is now driven by one-off factors, our analysis is that there are a number of key factors behind the majority of change happening. The biggest one is the fact that corporate profitability has significantly increased since 2010. I refer to the corporate profitability that Deputy Boyd Barrett, if he was here, would point to as something that he is very much concerned about and something that he would view as being an example of economic inequality. That increase in corporate profitability is being taxed. If that corporate activity refers to Ireland, we are gaining our share of tax on that. The second factor is that we have made a number of changes within our corporate tax code that will affect where we are from a revenue point of view. Third, there are a number of one-off factors that are beginning to have an effect. The most notable of these is the €700 million that we identified last year.

I thank the Minister.

I thank the Minister. It is almost 5.15 p.m. and there is private session to follow. I note we gave an undertaking to the Minister that we would finish at 5.15 p.m. All the Deputies have had a chance to contribute. I thank all my colleagues for facilitating. Almost every member spoke on the committee today. I thank the Minister and his officials for coming in to us. I propose we take a slight pause before going into private session.

I thank the Chairman and Deputies.

The select committee went into private session at 5.13 p.m. and adjourned at 5.31 p.m. until 4 p.m. on Tuesday, 22 January 2019.
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