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Committee on Budgetary Oversight debate -
Wednesday, 2 Feb 2022

Indexation of Taxation and Social Protection System: Discussion (Resumed)

Following the lifting of Covid-19 restrictions, members and witnesses will have the option of attending meetings within the relevant committee room. It is important to note that masks should continue to worn by those present when not addressing the committee. I will remind members of this as necessary.

Before we begin, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege in the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. However, today's witnesses are giving their evidence remotely from a place outside the parliamentary precincts and, as such, may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as witnesses who are physically present. Witnesses are again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise nor make charges against any person or entity, by name or in any way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that may be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory with regard to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or any official either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit members to participate where they are not adhering to the constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.

The committee has agreed to examine the indexation of the welfare and taxation system. The committee has scheduled a series of public meetings and intends to discuss several areas of interest, including the rationale for indexation, the creation of an indexation system, the operation of that system and the impact of indexation on budgetary sustainability. We also hope to publish a report on the topic. Today is the second of these meetings.n behalf of the committee. I welcome Dr. Claire Keane and Dr. Karina Doorley from the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI. I invite Dr. Keane to make her opening statement on behalf of the ESRI.

Dr. Claire Keane

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to the ESRI to appear before the committee. I am joined by my colleague, Dr. Karina Doorley. We work in the area of taxation, welfare and pensions research at the ESRI. We are happy to provide our views on indexing the tax and welfare system and will focus on the rationale for indexation, how such a system could be created and the economic sustainability of such a system.

I will first speak to the rationale for indexation. Indexation, or changing the monetary parameters of the tax and welfare system in line with price or earnings changes, is often suggested as a useful policy tool, both nationally and internationally. Currently, the Irish tax and benefit system is not automatically indexed. Instead, discretionary changes to tax and welfare parameters are announced, usually at budget time. Historically, these changes have, on average, kept pace with earnings growth, although on a year-to-year basis, there can be some deviation.

The absence of a rule for increasing welfare payments, tax credits and bands in line with inflation or earnings growth has implications for household purchasing power, the Exchequer, poverty and income inequality. If we consider a year in which price growth is 2% and earnings growth, which is usually higher, is 4%, and if all tax and welfare parameters are frozen, the purchasing power of those receiving welfare falls and income taxpayers face paying more of their income in taxes, a position known as fiscal drag. The Exchequer experiences an increase in income in real terms due to this fiscal drag. People may also lose eligibility to cash and non-cash benefits, such as medical cards, housing and childcare subsidies and student grants, due to earnings growth. Income inequality tends to increase as the incomes of those dependent on welfare falls relative to workers.

If tax and welfare parameters increase in line with price growth, the purchasing power of those receiving welfare is constant, Exchequer revenue from income tax still increases in real terms, as tax credits and bands fail to keep pace with wage growth, and income inequality increases, albeit by less than in the case of no indexation. Only by indexing tax and welfare parameters in line with wage growth do welfare recipients and workers see their income grow at the same rate. This wage indexation scenario is distributionally neutral in that it keeps at-risk of poverty rates and income inequality constant.

The creation and operation of an indexation system first requires the identification of a benchmark, or a desirable or adequate level of welfare benefits. Once the benchmark has been reached, further increases can continue to be linked to the benchmark or to a price or earnings index. Previous expert groups have suggested benchmarks for the Irish welfare system. The report of the social welfare benchmarking and indexation group from 2001 suggested that if indexation were to be adopted, the lowest welfare rates should be increased to 27% of gross average industrial earnings. in 2010, the national pensions framework suggested that the State pension should be benchmarked at just over a third of average weekly earnings to prevent elderly poverty, with the road map for pensions reform suggesting a similar benchmark.

In terms of which index to use, ESRI research argues that the natural index for indirect taxation is prices to ensure that taxes set at a fixed rate per unit of a commodity, such as excise duties and the carbon tax, remain constant in real terms. However, indexation based on earnings growth may be more suitable for income tax and welfare parameters if the aim of indexation is to avoid poverty or inequality increases.

Internationally, there are many examples of indexation systems in operation. There are few examples of automatic and unified earnings indexation, such as in Denmark, and the most common practice remains adjustment linked to prices. When uprating is linked to earnings, this is often limited to pension benefits. Indexation of tax bands and credits is much less common in Europe but more commonly seen in the US and Canada.

While typically wages rise by more than prices, they can both be subject to cyclical variations and at times if wage growth falls behind price growth, then indexation with respect to real wages would imply falls in real incomes for welfare recipients. If welfare payments are protected during downturns, they must be increased by less than the full extent of growth in upturns to avoid what is known as a ratcheting effect whereby social welfare rates grow faster than either incomes or inflation in the long term.

Regarding budgetary sustainability, it is important to bear in mind that automatic indexation removes some discretion available to Government each year and can reduce the scope for more targeted measures for groups considered to be at greater risk of poverty or deprivation. It can also limit the Government’s ability to respond to economic shocks. ESRI research by Callan et al, estimated the net cost of indexing the tax and welfare system in 2020. In that year indexation would have cost between €462 million for price indexation or €1.3 billion for wage indexation. That was between 10% and 29% of the available fiscal space that year.

In summary, indexation, or a lack thereof, has implications for poverty and inequality. While price indexation of the tax and welfare system would ensure that inflation does not erode purchasing power, it would still result in an increase in poverty rates and inequality. Indexation in line with earnings growth would avoid these increases but generally comes at a higher cost for the Exchequer. Both indexation options reduce budgetary flexibility. The decision to index the tax-welfare system is, therefore, ultimately a political one but could be assisted by using a microsimulation model, such as the ESRI’s SWITCH model. That has been used in the past in advance to estimate the cost of indexation options each year and to assess their financial feasibility.

I thank Dr. Keane. I now open the floor to members, each of whom has between nine and ten minutes. Deputy Doherty is our first speaker.

I thank the Chair. I appreciate the presentation and the written documentation from Dr. Keane. I have a couple of questions. There has been more discussion of indexation over the last period than there was in the preceding decade, for different reasons. Let us say we were to index social welfare rates in the context of budget 2022. If we were to index, for example, the core working age payment in line with the cost of price inflation what increase would we have been likely to see? We saw a €5 increase in the core working-age payment in budget 2022. Alongside that, what in the researchers' view is the best way to index social welfare rates with the aim of protecting people from poverty? Should it be price indexation as opposed to wage indexation?

Dr. Karina Doorley

I will take the first question on budget 2022. We looked at this for budget 2022. We compared the actual changes announced to the tax benefits system to what would have happened if the system had been indexed in line with forecast price growth for 2022. This is a little bit different from the way indexation typically operates because it is generally backward-looking, so we are looking at adjustments based on inflation over the last year. We compared it to what would happen if you indexed in line with forecast price growth for next year. At the time forecast price growth was 2.2%, if I remember right. That has grown since then. This is the issue with using a forecast rather than using a historic series for this. We estimated that welfare payments at least were expected to keep pace with forecast inflation of 2.1%. There were a few exceptions. The thresholds for the working families payment were increased by slightly less than forecast inflation. Child benefit was frozen in nominal terms. Those two benefits were not keeping pace with inflation but, by and large, the others were or almost were. The cost differential there would not have been too much if we were looking at a forecast inflation measure for indexing the welfare system at least.

Maybe Dr. Keane will come in on the second point but to pick up on what Dr. Doorley said, it refers to a projection but obviously we now know those figures are grossly wrong. It went from 2.1% to 5.5%. Dr. Doorley said the €5 increase was in line, or thereabouts, with inflation. Therefore, it would need to be increased by say €5, €6 or €7 to meet the real cost of inflation now. That is the average cost of inflation.

Dr. Karina Doorley

That is right. If the objective is to keep pace with forecast inflation, then the increases would have had to have been larger than they were. That is true. That is typically why most countries that operate a system of indexation use a historic index. They will look at average inflation over the past year and use that to index next year's parameters. Of course, there are issues with that. In the UK we are seeing that average inflation over the last year was up much less than forecast inflation for next year is and there are calls to adjust the way indexation is carried out next year because of this. Thus, depending on the business cycle, using a historic index can be problematic because you are tied to using potentially a lower index than what forecast inflation might be. Of course, there is always the option of discretionary policy to target those imbalances.

Is that the best way to deal with that? Looking at where we are with inflation, there is another point I want to talk about on the average rate of inflation and the impact that has on lower-income deciles and households. If we were to keep pace with what the Central Statistics Office, CSO, is reflecting about price increases there would have to be an extra €5, €6 or €7 added to the core social welfare payments above what was agreed in budget 2022. The inflation we are experiencing this year is more than the inflation we have experienced in the last 12 years combined. Given we are in a situation that may be temporary, though it may last a year or two, is the best way to address that through discretionary measures whereby you would have a temporary top-up? This is as opposed to baking it into the permanent social welfare increases in a budgetary cycle.

Dr. Karina Doorley

There are a number of ways to address that. I am not sure which might be considered the best. It might depend on how timely the CPI information you are receiving is. In the UK there are currently calls to wait until April when the increase is due to come in, see what the most recent information is then and use that figure rather than using the average over the last year. Thus, depending on when your information on whatever index is chosen comes in, that is always an option. You can always adjust closer to the time the increase is coming in and make use of the most recent information. In situations like the present one, where we expect much of the inflation that is occurring to be transitory as it is due to energy price increases, there might be other ways to address that specifically rather than indexing the whole tax-benefits system. You could use, say, the historic index for indexing the whole tax-benefits system and if we know there is a significant portion of transitory inflation at the moment that is driven by energy prices, then there might be other instruments to use in the tax-benefits systems for that purpose, such as fuel allowance or other targeted measures for low-income families who are less able to switch how they are heating their homes, fuelling their cars or whatever it is.

I hear Dr. Doorley's point on the discretionary options and there is legislation now being published to assist households with energy costs to a value of €100 before VAT. If you wanted to keep pace with inflation, and looking again at social welfare recipients, there would need to be an extra, say, €6 on average increase in social welfare rates. In the absence of that, those families are going to be €300 poorer this year than last. Even if we offset that with the energy measure that is being brought in it still leaves them €200 poorer than they were last year. How important is it for those type of measures to be targeted in terms of inflation? That takes me to another question on taxation.

If we index the taxation measures every year, either by price or by wage inflation, we are keeping the system as it is. Therefore, one is deciding to have the tax take as a percent of GDP, compared with our European neighbours. One is deciding to have a low tax economy and, therefore, starving public services of resources. Is indexation always the best thing to do? While indexation can lift people who need a lift, it also benefits seriously wealthy individuals because they get the benefit from the same indexation, particularly when we look at the tax package of €500 million in last year's budget. I think more than €340,000 of it was aimed at the higher rate of tax and dealing with that band. Yet, 80% of earners are excluded from that benefit. Therefore, should indexation be broad-based, or should it be targeted? What is the experience in other areas? I apologise because I know that there was a lot there, so I will stop now.

Dr. Karina Doorley

I will try to work backwards. I do not think that we would say that indexation is definitely the best policy. This ultimately comes down to the political trade-offs and what is the best thing to do with the available budget. Indexation gives a measure of certainty and security to families who know that if their incomes are to increase, they will not suddenly lose access to their national childcare scheme, NCS, subsidy, to their medical card or something like that. It also avoids a bracket creep and it ensures that income inequality and poverty will stay relatively constant as the default.

However, there is always a role for a discretionary policy to override some of those things. We would not necessarily say that it should be the case that the default should be indexation. Dr. Keane and I always argue that we should compare whatever policy changes that are made to an index system, so that we can see how income distribution is deviating from the status quo. Even if it becomes the policy, there is still always a role for discretionary policy, if the Government objective is to increase tax on high earners. There can always be a discretionary policy that can operate alongside indexation.

I should say as well that in many countries that operate indexation, whether this is price indexation or wage indexation, there is often an option for a government to pause it, or for it to say it does not have the budget this year. Therefore, it can be the default policy for as long as the budget is available. What we tend to see is that even over time the policy within a country can change from year to year. I am not sure if I have answered everything.

No, that is perfect. I have been engaged with the Central Statistics Office, CSO, on how it calculates inflation. Obviously, the average figure is accurate and all the rest, but it does not really reflect the fact that we all, as individuals, are placed on the income scale and have different baskets and, therefore, have different rates of inflation.

As Dr. Doorley knows, the Office for National Statistics, ONS, in Britain has changed as a result of the campaigning that has been done by the activist and author who forced it to change the way that it will calculate inflation. Has Dr. Doorley or the ESRI any view on the fact that the average rate of inflation, which is used for indexation, for social welfare rates and for so many policy discussions, does not reflect the real impact on lower-income households? I thought what the Governor of the Central Bank of Ireland, Gabriel Makhlouf, did was interesting. It was a really a desktop exercise that broke it down into the poorest 20% of households in the State and the richest 20%, if you want to call them that or the highest earners with highest incomes in the State. The difference in the inflation rate between those two categories of individuals is 0.8%. Obviously, the lower one’s income, the higher the inflation rate. In the ESRI's view, would that breakdown of inflation based on decile - it also has an impact in terms of rural-urban - be a helpful addition to policy development?

Dr. Claire Keane

As the Deputy said, at the moment this is topical in the UK and in Ireland. We are seeing that inflation for lower-income groups is higher than it is for higher-income groups but that does not tend to be the case over the longer term. If we look back, it tends to balance out. For example, there may be some things that higher income groups consume that grow at a higher rate. Certainly, however, there is nothing obliging one to use the average consumer price index, CPI.

If the CSO is planning, as it has stated it is intending to do and as the ONS has done in the UK, to produce CPI by, for example, income deciles or quintiles, there would be nothing to stop one from saying that in a year where the inflation rate for the poorest fifth of the population is significantly higher than the average, that could be used as the indexation rate. There is nothing forcing one to use the average. In general, what we would see is that the average and the inflation rates by income groups tend to be quite close. However, in a year where there is a big divergence, there would be nothing to stop one from, say, rather than using the average number, indexing the welfare system by price inflation and using the price inflation that is occurring for the poorest fifth of the population.

I appreciate that answer. I agree with Dr. Keane's analysis. They are very close for all deciles when there is low inflation, as we have experienced for well over a decade. However, when there are spikes, there is that divergence. I thank Dr. Keane for that.

Dr. Claire Keane

One thing that struck me when talking about this was that we are in a period where forecasts and the current inflation rate, such as the most recent one of a few months ago, are very divergent. Again, there would be nothing to stop one from using a forecast in a particular year. If, say, in a worst-case scenario, one overshoots - for example, if forecast inflation is 6% and one gives the 6% rise - but it turns out that inflation only grows by 4%, then one could reduce the rise the following year, so that the system does not get out of kilter.

Again, the whole issue of benchmarks is important. We are not saying that the social welfare and tax system is perfect as it is. However, given the estimate we did in 2020 that indexation would cost between 10% to 29% of the fiscal space, that still leaves a lot of fiscal space available to target measures at discretionary policy.

We need to move on to the next speaker, but it is interesting that one could possibly course correct in that case. I call Deputy Moynihan.

I thank Dr. Keane and Dr. Doorley for the presentation. I was listening attentively to the previous discussion. I would be interested in getting an understanding of the ESRI's view on whether this would be right across all social welfare payments that would be indexed. Would this move on into other benefits, such as social housing qualifying criteria and so on? Where would the ESRI see a line to be drawn? For example, if somebody qualifies for social housing, would the HAP payment, in turn, need to be indexed? I am trying to get an idea of where the ESRI would see a line there. I do not know if that is possible. Is this all-or-nothing, or is there a partial system whereby one could index some things and not others? Where does taxation fit into this? Would the ESRI also consider indexing taxation bands and thresholds?

Earlier, Dr. Keane mentioned a figure of 10% to 29% of available funding for the last year's budget. What was that figure based on? Was it based on only social welfare increases, or was it based on all those other different benefits? Was taxation included in that as well?

Dr. Claire Keane

That figure of 10% to 29% was indexing pretty much everything in the tax and welfare system. Therefore, it was increasing tax bands, as well as welfare rates. If we look at what other countries do, there are not many countries that index up everything, for example, indexing both tax and welfare bands, tax credits, along with welfare rates. My opinion would be that ideally one would index everything, otherwise the system would start to get out of kilter. Therefore, if there are increases in social welfare rates but not increases in tax bands and tax credits, then one starts to possibly create disincentives to work. This is because a person would effectively not take home as much, if the tax system does not keep pace.

Ideally, we would think about the system as a whole. A couple of years ago, it was pointed out that social welfare increases might result in some people losing their medical cards, for example. The then Minister for Health weighed in on this at the time. If the income limits for the medical card do not grow at the same rate as welfare increases, people could lose medical cards. The same applies to childcare subsidies. We have really seen this with student grants. Research has shown the student grant rates and income limits for student grants have really not kept pace with inflation. What has happened is that fewer and fewer third level students have been qualifying for grants as a result of their parents just getting average wage increases. Back in the 1970s, the student grant was roughly equal to the unemployment payment. It could be seen as a minimum amount needed to live, but it has fallen massively behind because it has not kept pace with inflation. Ideally, we would index-----

How would indexing work in catching up regarding the student grant?

Dr. Claire Keane

This is where we need to take a step back and say indexation is beneficial when we get to the starting point we want. When the grants, social welfare rates or other benefits are brought to an adequate level - there is an arbitrary decision to be made in this regard - indexation is beneficial. In many countries, the student grant rate is equal to that of unemployment benefits. In this regard, we need to examine our system and determine where we believe there should be increases. From then on, further increases could be made in line with inflation.

The downside of indexing the entire system is that it is costly. Dr. Doorley and I work on developing and maintaining the simulating welfare and income tax changes, SWITCH model. The SWITCH model is used in Departments as well as by the ESRI. It would give the advantage of being able to cost changes in advance, giving figures for what would occur if we just indexed social welfare, changed tax bands and credits or changed the system as a whole. That is where the political decisions come in. If it was going to cost too much, one could just decide to index certain aspects.

Internationally, that is done quite frequently. In some countries, only pensions are increased in line with inflation. In others, all welfare rates are increased while in yet others, there are increases to welfare bands or tax bands.

In those countries where different payments are indexed, what does it mean for poverty levels? How is the decision made on what is indexed?

Dr. Claire Keane

Internationally, if there is only one benefit type index, it tends to concern pensions. Pensions, more often than other welfare benefits, get indexed in line with wage growth, and other benefits may be increased in line with prices. That is a decision that has to be made by policymakers. In Ireland, State pension rates are already higher than payments such as the unemployment payment. If we continue to index one by a higher amount, it will continue to grow out of kilter with the others. The argument has sometimes been that people on pensions find it harder because they cannot just go back to work or try to earn more money if inflation is high. That was the argument. It has mainly been a financial argument in that if all welfare rates are increased by the same amount, it will cost more than if certain benefits only are increased. In this regard, a decision has to be made. I believe the indexing of all welfare rates should happen, but it may be that a political decision will need to be made that only certain benefits may be increased in a particular year if it is going to cost too much to increase all of them.

With regard to indexing, does one look back towards inflation or forward towards wages or expected wages? Where there are unexpected circumstances or shocks to the system, Dr. Keane referred to making an adjustment the following year. A year is a long time away for those stuck on a fixed income when inflation is at a rate of 5% or 6%.

Dr. Claire Keane

Practically, it is very difficult to use forecasts because it is necessary to play catch-up constantly. It is a question of whether the forecast, if it is not correct, must be fixed each year. From a purely practical point of view, most countries use a slightly historical index. We are talking about a few months.

Is there any benefit to going back further than a few months, such as a year or year and a half?

Dr. Claire Keane

As Dr. Doorley pointed out, accounting for just the past few months might give a figure that is different from that of the average year. That would probably happen more when there is a large increase in inflation. In this case, one might want to use a more recent figure than the yearly average. It is precisely as the Deputy said in that it is easy to say an average can be used, but if people are facing much higher costs in the shorter term, it is an issue. In this case, we could use the example I gave earlier, whereby a forecast is looked at. If the forecast were very different from the yearly average, it could be used for the time being. One could then look ahead to the next year’s budget and ask how close the forecast was and whether the increase was too much or not enough. A correction could be made so that even if the forecasts were constantly ahead of the reality, it would not be necessary to go back constantly to cut social welfare rates; one could, perhaps, just limit the increase the following year.

In general, these things settle down over time. There will be certain years with spikes. Unfortunately, this year is one of them. However, if it is felt there has been an overshoot, the increase can always be tempered down the following year. If the forecast is 6% and the reality is 4%, one might not increase by as much the following year, but at least people on social welfare would be given an adequate increase in the shorter term to deal with the costs they are facing.

When talking about budget 2022, Dr. Keane referred to 10% and 29%. Was the 10% based on inflation and the 29% based on wages?

Dr. Claire Keane

Exactly. That was work we did a couple of years ago for budget 2020. The advantage of the SWITCH model I am talking about is that the analysis can be done in advance of the change. The costing can be done in advance and it can be seen that if the money is not available in a given year, the increase will have to be lower. That decision can always be made each year if needs be.

I thank the delegates. This is an interesting discussion. It makes me think of what else could have an effect. Let me hone in. On budget 2020, the ESRI produced figures of €462 million for price indexation and €1.3 billion for wage indexation. The delegates mentioned higher education grants by SUSI. In its analysis, would the ESRI have included increasing thresholds for everybody, including workers and people on social welfare? While all the indexing is great, my concern is that, in real terms, if we were to use cost rather than wages, we would get to a stage very quickly where it would be less obvious that work would pay. Is there a risk in that?

Dr. Karina Doorley

To answer the Deputy’s first question, the lower number, the 10%, was for price indexation, and the 29% was for wage inflation. We indexed all the parameters of the tax benefits system that are currently in the model. There are some smaller benefits that we cannot model but, by and large, the tax benefits system is modelled. We included all of it. We also included indirect taxes. We should keep in mind that when we talk about indexing the tax and benefits system, we should also be thinking about the indirect tax system because excise rates that are set as a proportion of the unit of a commodity sold are not increased in line with inflation automatically. Indexing the indirect tax system in line with inflation actually results in an Exchequer gain, whereas indexing the rest of it, the direct tax and welfare system, results in an Exchequer loss.

We did the whole tax benefit system. If we were to index the welfare system in line with price growth, we would see welfare recipients receiving relatively less in real terms than workers. That should actually increase the incentive to work but it is also going to have an impact on poverty and inequality. That is because wage growth tends to be higher than price growth due to economic growth. From year to year there can be differences but in the long term, wage growth tends to be higher than price growth. If we were indexing the welfare system in line with price growth, we would see an increase in income and equality because those who are receiving welfare are seeing lower real income gains compared to those who are in work.

The other question I was formulating in my mind was in relation to social welfare and all that goes with that. Dr. Doorley said one can take any year and model it based on the system or the interpretation that can be done with it. Let us say there is a projection of 6% inflation in 2023 and we index link everything and give an increase. If there is no increase predicted the following year, can we see a point where incomes will fall again? How does that work, for instance, if we have a deflationary situation?

Dr. Claire Keane

That has happened historically. We saw that over the great recession in that in some years, indexation might actually suggest a cut to the actual amount of social welfare or a cut to tax spends and credits. What the Government can do in that case, if a decision is made that it is not going to cut social welfare rates because there is negative inflation, which tends to be quite rare, is freeze it. Rather than cutting it the Government could say it is going to protect welfare rates or protect our tax bands and credits, if it can afford to do so, and maybe reduce the increase that comes the following year so that it averages out over time. Say in the first year the Government thinks inflation is minus 1% and decides it is not going to index or cut by 1% and the following year inflation is 3%, it would only give it a 2% rise. It would sort of freeze things in years where there is actual deflation and then give slightly lower inflation increases the next year so that over a couple of years it averages out overall. That would prevent the Government actually having to cut social welfare rates.

One of the risks is that everything is going one way and the next thing it drops leading to a recession or whatever then we have a clawback. We also have a situation where we have an inability to pay clause by the Government if we have a serious recession.

I am coming at this other issue with my Joint Committee on Disability Matters hat on. The Indecon report that was produced a short time ago stated that the additional cost of living for somebody with a disability is €9,000. If we set up a system where we have indexation, we would need to calibrate where there are deficiencies at the moment to bring them up to a level. Is that something the ESRI could see being done? I know it is a political decision at the end of the day but is it something that would merit serious consideration in order to take the anomalies that exist for people with disabilities out of the system ? How would the ESRI approach it from an economic point of view? How would it advise the Minister?

Dr. Karina Doorley

There is actually emerging literature on the cost of living for people with disabilities, including the Indecon report, that suggests the weight we give to those households should be different from the weight we give to other households because they have these unavoidable expenses. If indexation was being considered, the first step is the benchmarking process and asking at what point do we want to benchmark all these different tax and welfare payments. If the Government was particularly concerned about the level of disability payments, it might be an idea to look at how the consumption of households containing people with a disability is different from the consumption of other households. That would give an idea of what kind of extra weight should be given to their payment compared to another household. There is a bit of ongoing work on this. It is something we might be working on a bit later this year as well. Obviously, that will all be made public if we publish a report on it. The place to start is by asking what the correct benchmark is. I am guessing that there is going to be in international literature the level at which disability payments should be set relative to, let us say, core welfare rates. Given that starting point then the indexation process could start.

The word Dr. Doorley used was "benchmarking". We have to level the playing field first in terms of the anomalies and particular situations that exist and after that there should be indexation, whether it is done by price or wages. The other thing we must protect against is the danger that work does not pay and becomes marginal. It is important that we encourage as many people as possible and that it pays for them to work. I will leave it at that. I thank the witnesses for their very insightful discussion and presentation. What I like most about it is the plain language because it can be very complex. It is great in order that we understand it better. I thank them both.

I thank Deputy Canney. Our next speaker is Deputy Mairéad Farrell, whom we have lost. She was online a second ago. We will give her a moment to come back. In the meantime, I might ask some questions if that is okay with our witnesses.

I have a number of questions but I will stay on Deputy Canney's point around disability. The ESRI very kindly sent us that report from 2019, which was really helpful. One of the sections was around variations across benefits. It seems to me that a huge amount of work was done on the variations when it comes to pensions. I presume that was because there is a legacy of contributory pensions and private pensions and it is a complex area in which there is already a body of research but not when it comes to more complex payments. I would proffer that disability payments, for example, are more complex because often, in the same way as with unemployment, people sometimes move in and out of that particular stage of life and might have more costs and need more supports. There does not seem to be the same amount of economic research on that particular topic. Dr. Doorley mentioned that research is being done. Is it fair to say that there is not the same kind of engagement on what indexation might mean for the disability sector? Based on what Dr. Doorley has seen from the Indecon report, which she has talked about with others, would it be fair to say that it seems we are quite far back on disability and there would need to be a kind of catch-up transition phase before we actually engage with pure indexation in that regard?

Dr. Karina Doorley

That is a very complex question about a very complex topic. I suppose the Chairman is right. There is not the same body of research about the adequacy of disability payments compared to something like pension payments. That is because much of the research that looks at the level at which welfare is set does so in an attempt to establish what incentives to work are. It is very difficult to talk about incentives to work when we are studying a population with a disability because, obviously, many of them are self-declaring as unfit to work. It makes absolutely no sense, therefore, to be looking at incentives to work and what level of payment is the correct one to have this trade-off between a safety net but also keep incentives to work for those who can do so. I guess that is why there is probably a little bit less research in this area. It is also quite complex to study because the typical types of survey data we use do not have much information on disability.

From our perspective, with the SWITCH model and the data we use, we know if somebody is receiving a disability payment but we do not know anything else, so it is quite hard to establish their level of need in terms of payment without going to another data source, such as the household budget survey. With that we may be able to determine where their expenditure might exceed that of other households that do not contain a person with a disability and abstract from that what might be the correct level of payment. I do not have much more to say on that topic now.

I will follow up with a question because Dr. Doorley has raised an interesting point. This is something I asked in last week's session and I believe the answer I received was very much based on economic data. I am very mindful that in Ireland we sometimes do not necessarily have access to the type of data we need to make these kinds of big public and civic decisions. I suspect part of that impression I have formed comes from my sitting on the health committee. It seems we do not really have access to adequate amounts of disaggregated data around health and sometimes ethnicity. I know representatives of the Traveller community often speak about the lack of aggregated data around what they experience. Would it be fair to say from Dr. Doorley's description that the economic "number data" might be there but the more complex information around the social aspects, or that kind of data, may not be as available?

Dr. Karina Doorley

I will let Dr. Keane take that as it is more her area.

Dr. Claire Keane

One of my favourite topics is administrative data. In Ireland we are not so great at using administrative data and, as researchers, we often must rely on surveys that may not, for example, contain a very large number of people with a disability. That sort of restricts the analysis we can do. In Scandinavian countries, for example, there is much more usage of administrative data. It is important Departments do not operate in silos. In the Covid-19 pandemic, for example, we have shown how we really have been able to use administrative data and information quite quickly and pull it together. The Central Statistics Office, CSO, is doing a good job of bringing administrative data into surveys as well.

On the specific question of disability, we also need to think about the wider questions. For example, we know employment rates of people with disabilities in Ireland are much lower than other OECD countries. The OECD in a recent report pointed to issues such as a lack of engagement with employers and helping people with disabilities into employment. That is one point.

Another matter that can often create a disincentive for people with disabilities to work is their potential need for flexibility. They may not have the physical capacity to work full-time and we hope remote working will help there. There is also the question of retaining secondary benefits, for example, such as medical cards. Somebody with a disability may really value having a medical card because it covers so much of the cost of the disability. It might be important not only to have medical cards that are means-tested but to also recognise people's health status. For example, people with certain conditions might be able to retain cards so the issue does not act as a disincentive to work. Looking at the medical card scheme would be important as well as looking at the sort of headline disability payment amounts.

I absolutely agree. In fairness, I have heard it mentioned at the disability matters committee that there are such hidden barriers to participation. I will return to the data while I have somebody who cares about this. Dr. Keane is a rarity in that respect. Are we not taking in that information or asking the right questions? What are the barriers? Are we not gathering the information appropriately, centralising it or making it available. I know the witnesses may not be at the front face of gathering this information. What is their impression of the issue?

Dr. Claire Keane

The main issue is often a lack of centralisation.

Dr. Claire Keane

The Department of Education holds information on children and how they perform in school tests. The Department of Health might hold information on how often people go into hospital or how often they use a medical card, for example. I know there are major data protection issues but in other countries there is often something like the CSO, a central statistical agency tasked with bringing information together. The CSO already does this quite a lot for survey data, including the survey of income living conditions, SILC, that Dr. Doorley and I would use a lot. That brings in administrative information on incomes and such matters but it could certainly be improved.

There is a financial side to this and if the CSO did the work, it would have to be provided with the resources to do it. As researchers, we often contact Departments and we may or may not get information, so that might bring clarity in that respect. There can also be a cost saving aspect. If we get a system up and running where data are recorded and centralised, we may not have to rely so much on surveys, which can be costly to carry out. If we centralise the process and have joined-up thinking between Departments, it can help. Somebody must take on the role of drawing all of this together. The CSO may not thank me for suggesting it but it is a natural candidate to bring together all this information.

As a researcher, of course I will say that all this must be made available to researchers so we can access the data. I know that I have tried to get data from a Department but it could not be provided to me because of data protection rules, etc. It would be very good to ensure researchers have access to this as well.

It may be surprising but people watch these committees. The public should know that what we are talking about for decision-making is largely anonymised data that is disaggregated and not in any way traceable to the person. It is more about understanding what life is really like in Ireland and being able to use those numbers to make decisions.

I am nearly out of time but I have another question relating to the 2019 paper. I always find it incredibly useful when people give examples from other countries. I am interested in the variation across countries, although I know some of this data are older. It is interesting that Denmark has a completely unified system, so does the ESRI have a position on what country is doing this well that the committee could consider? As we go down the list, which includes Finland, Sweden, Australia and New Zealand, it seems many of those countries were considering aspects such as price indexing. In fairness, not just today but last week when we had representatives of Social Justice Ireland and the Nevin Economic Research Institute in, we hear that wages are a much better benchmark. Are we seeing difficulties for those countries or has the economic research community come to a position that the wage benchmark is better? How did those countries get to that position as a group? Is that from a different era and we have moved on?

Dr. Karina Doorley

In large part price indexation is used because it is cheaper for the Exchequer. That is it in a nutshell. That is if the aim is to at least try to keep poverty and inequality constant; again, we are not saying that should be the aim and there can be targeted measures to try to decrease levels of inequality. If these measures are being implemented and we are trying to keep things constant, wage indexation is necessary. Otherwise there is a gap between people who rely on welfare and those who have wages. There would be disparities between those in time.

In some countries there has been much change over time. It used to be that there was price indexation but in particular over the great recession many countries moved from wage indexation to price indexation, purely because of the cost of wage indexation, which is higher.

That is really helpful.

I apologise. My laptop decided to die and restart but here I am. All the questions I wanted to ask have been raised. We are seeing a rise in the cost of living with increasing inflation and that is affecting lower-income households in particular. In our alternative budget we suggested a €10 increase in working age payments, and that must be done urgently. Sometimes there is a policy that tries to help lower middle-income earners.

It actually ends up also helping those higher earners. Specifically, we can see that when we are trying to target the middle income group. Have the witnesses any policy suggestions on how we could tackle that whole issue of the middle income group? That is not to take away from the lower income group; I do not mean it that way, but sometimes we can be more targeted in that sense. The issue with the middle income group is how to target that group and assist them without actually in turn also assisting those on higher incomes.

Dr. Karina Doorley

I think budget 2022 was a really good example of a budget that assisted low-income families and high-income families, but not so much the middle-income families. That was really down to the fact that there was some indexation of the tax benefit system. Many benefits were increased by close to inflation or perhaps a little bit more than inflation. A few were not. The income tax system was indexed by more than forecast inflation, so that gave a kind of a boost to higher-income families. In the middle, there was only a small change to PRSI rates. That effectively became a tax increase for middle-income families who were not benefiting from the change to income tax. There was also a lower than forecast inflation increase in the working families payment and a freeze to child benefit. The cumulation of those things around the middle of the income distribution, together with changes to indirect taxation, meant that the middle of the income distribution did not see the same benefit from budget 2022 as the lower income households, who benefited from targeted changes to welfare payments, and the higher income families, who benefited from tax cuts.

I suppose what was missing from budget 2022, if the objective was a unified enough indexation, was changes to PRSI rates, USC rates, increasing them in line with inflation as well as just income tax.

Unfortunately, all my other questions have been asked and I have to head off to another meeting. That is just my day-to-day. It has been very interesting. I thank the witnesses.

I did not have visual contact earlier but I was able to listen to the meeting. One of the findings that has been consistent since we started discussing this topic is that the introduction of a State pension rate that is a percentage of a certain average – one of the witnesses mentioned 34% of earnings - has been regularly discussed since the 1990s and in the initial presentation from the Parliamentary Budget Office. Obviously, the area of pensions is big news. Indeed, it led on RTÉ's "Six One" news today because of the publication of report of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection, Community and Rural Development and the Islands. For some people, without the addition of something like the fuel allowance on top of the State pension, they are simply not keeping pace in real monetary terms with what is needed for them to live reasonably – I will not say comfortably – and not in jeopardy. We were told that a State pension should be pitched at around 30% to 35% of the average industrial wage. I ask for the witnesses' views on that.

Dr. Claire Keane

It might sound like a bit of a cop out, but there is no correct level to have a benefit at. The Commission on Pensions and the Commission on Taxation and Welfare were established to look at those kinds of issues. In this case, the advice is to set the State pension at around one third of average wages. It used to be the average industrial wage. I think now they are moving towards having it as a percentage of average wages across all occupations. I suppose it is about looking at it to see if it is adequate. Some indicators that answer those questions for us are, for example, elderly poverty rates. We know that elderly poverty rates in Ireland have fallen substantially because of the active discretionary policy of increasing State pensions over time. On what the Deputy has said about deciding on a benchmark, I cannot say that it is the right or wrong amount because that is ultimately a decision. The decision has to be made by weighing up how much it costs, whether it is sustainable, etc. If we go with the advice that the State pension should be roughly one third of average earnings, indexation will allow us to sort of forget about whether it is keeping pace with prices or wages each year. If we automatically index the pension, then it will continue to stay that rate. However, it would suggest that if we decide to benchmark pensions at around one third of average earnings, then we would have to increase them in line with wage inflation to keep that benchmark. If we just increase them in line with prices, it would more than likely fall behind and in a few years' time we would have to play catch up again.

Looking at elderly poverty rates, yes, we do have people below the poverty line who are over 65. However, the poverty rates for the over-65 age group are substantially lower than those of other age groups. It is also important to look at other groups in society. For example, we know that there are very high poverty rates and very high deprivation rates among lone parents - much higher than among older age groups. It is important to monitor those measures, such as poverty and deprivation rates, among different groups in society or age groups. That allows us to determine whether an amount is adequate. Many people in Ireland who are over 65 and are below the poverty line are not getting that maximum State pension amount. These are people who are qualifying for a lower than maximum State pension amount. That might be something that has to be looked at. It tends to be people who have been in and out of work, might not have enough social insurance contributions or have been abroad and do not have the full insurance contributions to come back to Ireland. In general, if we decide on what an adequate benchmark is, then that is where the indexation helps, as we do not have to constantly monitor it each year to see if rates are falling behind for certain groups.

That is interesting. It is a notion that I have thought about over the years. Thankfully, for the over-65 age cohort, they are vocal and good at advocating. However, it is interesting to note – not that we want any kind of poverty level in any cohort – that the weight of poverty among the over-65s is significantly less than for other groups under that age group. Now, that is worrying in itself. It leads me to the question about indexation being a universal thing. I do not regard myself as being particularly well-off. I earn a very good salary but I also have a very significant mortgage like many others. The energy bill piece, whereby the Government is giving a €100 rebate to all electricity account holders, is like the index-linked pension increase. Everybody gets that, regardless of their need for it. I could think of many ways in which that €100 could have been distributed a little more fairly, particularly to those who might suffer from energy poverty and may have needed more than that. There are also others who do not particularly need it but welcome the reduction of €100 of their energy bills, but would not notice if they did not get it. With indexation, someone who would be on a very good defined contribution pension, defined benefit pension or reasonably comfortable, would also get the benefit of the indexation if it was to be brought in. I ask the witnesses for their views on attempting to distribute that a little bit more equitably in targeting it. With targeting, obviously, people have worked and will assert that they have earned it, they have paid their stamps, and they are entitled to that. It seems to me that the universality piece comes back to the old argument about child benefit. As we know, there are families who open an account for their baby almost on the day they come back from hospital, and in goes the child benefit for weeks, months and years. When the child reaches the age of 18 there is a great, big sizeable pot there because they are comfortable, and fair play to them. There are other families for whom existence would simply be impossible without that benefit. I ask the witnesses for their views on that. It is not directly connected to the issue at hand, but I am sure the witnesses can see where I am coming from.

Dr. Karina Doorley

There will always be trade-off between a measure being administratively simple and well-targeted and even being perceived as fair. Child benefit is a good example. It does not seem fair to exclude some children from this benefit even if their parents have very high means but the universality of child benefit means many people get it who simply do not need it. The same is true for this electricity bill credit. Interestingly, this was one of the recommendations of the European Commission for policymakers who wanted to give some temporary help to households for what they considered a transitionary increase in fuel prices. One of the suggested measures was an energy credit. Others included temporary increases to targeted payments such as the fuel allowance. That is something that was done here during the pandemic, namely, the fuel allowance season was extended by four weeks because elderly people were being asked to cocoon. This time around the policymakers have gone with this energy credit. It is administratively simple. It would probably have been very difficult to identify who needed it. It is hard to come up with rules like that without linking it to existing benefits or systems. That is the reason that was the option chosen.

To return to the universality of indexation, it depends on what the Government objective is. For example, do we want to target any changes in the current income distribution using policy? If the answer to that question is "No", then indexing the system in line with wage growth every year will simply keep it the same. If that is the policy target, then that is the correct policy to follow. If the answer to that question is "Yes", that we want to influence the income distribution and we think people on very high incomes should pay more tax or as their earnings increase an extra portion of those should go to the Exchequer, there is a case for a discretionary policy of excluding certain payments from indexation. Ultimately, that must be a decision based on trade-offs between what policymakers think the income distribution should look like and what the fiscal cost of those policies is. When we talk about indexation if we want to keep the status quo, indexing everything by wage growth annually is the way to do it. Then if we decide we do not want to keep the status quo, we do not index and we have ad hoc budgetary changes every year, which during the past 30 years in Ireland have kept pace with earnings growth. Even though we have not had a formal indexation system, on average, our tax benefit system has kept pace with earnings growth, albeit that policy was not in place. Even though we were not doing it automatically, that was the underlying intention or implicit rule behind changes to the tax benefit system over the years.

This question may have been answered and if it has I will read through the proceedings. What have been the major resistances to indexing? I think the witnesses referred to that.

Dr. Claire Keane

One of the resistances is that if we index it takes away more discretionary power. If we decide to index, it perhaps takes some fun out of budget day for everybody or whatever way one would want to think about that. If we have automatic indexation to which we commit, the Government's hands might be a little tied each year if, for example, the economy is not performing so well. That has probably been one of the keys to resistance. Also, we do not have a historical pattern of doing this. It is something that has come up recently. Even if we were to commit to doing it, there is nothing to stop us decide to change that. For example in the UK, indexation is used but this year it will not do it, the main reason being given is that wage indexation would be unreliable because of the Covid pandemic. Very odd figures for wage growth have come out during that time because many people were taken out of the labour market. There is nothing stopping us from bringing in indexation and then deciding in a particular year we cannot afford it or can only afford price indexation and not wage indexation. The Government always has discretionary power to decide in that respect.

If we were to index link State pensions, is there an argument for connecting the taxation system generally in an indexed way for ordinary salaries pre-pension runs? I may not have articulated that well. If we were to index State pensions to the average industrial wage, or whatever else is connected to that, in the economy, is there an argument for indexing taxes for the ordinary individual pre-retirement to wage increases, etc? Do the witnesses understand the connection I am trying to make? I have probably not put that in great words. Thankfully, I note Dr. Doorley is nodding. She might be able to put that into proper English?

Dr. Karina Doorley

Absolutely, we are talking about indexation of the welfare and taxation systems, all the monetary parameters in the tax and welfare systems but also the indirect tax system, for example, excise duties and things like that. It is a very global concept. Most countries do not do the whole thing. In Europe, it is mainly indexation of welfare parameters that happens but in the US and Canada they also index the tax system using the same index.

The Deputy is at the end of his allocated session. He might ask one final question.

I get how index-linking State pensions works. How would index-linking tax increases work?

Dr. Karina Doorley

If we knew wage growth was, say, 2% last year, all the taxation parameters such as tax credits, the standard rate band and anything else that has a monetary parameter would also increase by the same rate such that there was no fiscal drag and people would not be paying a higher proportion of their earnings in tax. If we indexed the taxation system in the same way their earnings are growing, they would be paying the same proportion of their earnings in tax this year as they were last year.

That wipes out the discretionary element from a political perspective in that the Minister for Finance could not play around with it. We would be fixing it. That would be the political downside. Is that right?

Dr. Karina Doorley

Yes. There is always a role for discretionary policy, which could reverse it or make it more generous, but that would depend on the finances.

Could one of the witnesses explain how it would work on indirect tax on, say, a commodity?

Dr. Claire Keane

If we do not index, for example, excise duties or carbon taxes, effectively the tax percentage on them falls. Therefore, there is a positive for the Exchequer to indexing

What about VAT?

Deputy, I must move on.

I have over-egged the pudding. I might come back in at the end if I am still here.

I thank everybody for their contributions. I apologise for having had to step out earlier. If I ask a question that has already been asked, I will check the proceedings and get the answer to it. I would like to know what base measures should be used to calculate indexation and whether the triple-lock measure is the best there is or whether there is a better way.

Dr. Karina Doorley

I will take that question and Dr. Keane might add a further comment. With base measures, we would be talking about what index we should use, whether it should be price or wage indexation, or a mix of those. Really that depends on the expected outcome. If the objective is to maintain income inequality and poverty rates, therefore, if we do not want to increase poverty rates or income inequality, indexation by wage growth is the correct measure.

It will keep the income distribution constant in relative terms. If we want to ensure people's purchasing power does not decrease, then price indexation is the correct method of indexation. Given that wage growth tends to exceed price growth most years, though, indexing by price means that income inequality will increase because people who are in work will be relatively better off than people who are out of work. I hope that answers the Deputy's question about the base. She might remind me of her second question.

I asked whether there was a better way than the triple-lock. However, I am going to move on and say that there have been calls for an independent body similar to the Low Pay Commission to oversee indexation. Would the ESRI support such a body and what approach should it take?

Dr. Claire Keane

One of the main advantages of automatic indexation is that it gives people certainty, in that they know that their incomes are going to keep pace with either wage growth or price growth. If an arbitrary decision is made each year, a little of that certainty disappears but there would be an advantage for the Exchequer in knowing that things were affordable. If there is price or wage growth in a particular year but the economy is in trouble, an independent body like that could decide not to give an increase because the economy could not afford it or would have to borrow. Alternatively, increases could be weighed out. For example, let us say there is deflation and prices fall. The body might decide that it does not want to cut social welfare rates. It could keep them constant and decide on a smaller increase the following year. Having a body to consider such matters would be an advantage.

I am not trying to plug what Dr. Doorley and I do, but we work a great deal with micro-simulation models. They allow us to take a representative sample of the population and determine how much indexing would cost if we believed inflation was going to be X percent next year. This sort of research could feed into such a body, give it options and show it that, if it were to increase rates in line with prices, it would cost this much and if they were to increase with wage growth, it would cost this much. That work can be done a year in advance. We carry out a great deal of analysis before a budget happens.

The advantage of a commission or body like the one the Deputy referenced would be budget sustainability, in that we would not be giving increases in years where we might not be able to afford them.

Does the ESRI have figures on the cost of indexation based on current inflation and wage growth?

Dr. Karina Doorley

I do not have them to hand. I do not believe we did them this year. We spoke about historical figures for budget 2020, in that we ran an analysis of what it would cost to index budget 2019 instead of introducing budget 2020. It was somewhere between 10% and 30% of the available fiscal space at the time. I do not believe that we carried out that analysis for this budget, or if we did, we have not published the figures on it.

If the ESRI carried out that analysis, it would be published in due course.

Dr. Karina Doorley

We have already published our budget 2022 analysis. We did not include figures on that item.

Dr. Claire Keane

I should point out that the model we have developed is funded by five Departments. As can be seen from budget documents, it is available and used in advance to examine the distributional impact of planned changes. The Departments of Public Expenditure and Reform, Finance and Social Protection all have access to the model. Either the ESRI could be doing that work or it could be done within Departments.

I thank the witnesses.

Just for clarity, is that the simulating welfare and income tax changes, SWITCH, model?

Dr. Claire Keane

Yes.

I call Deputy Healy-Rae.

I have just had a lot of technical difficulties. I was listening to a screen on a wall but I could not participate, so I am grateful for the assistance I was given.

I am fine when it comes to questions. I am just glad that I was able to listen despite the problems. I am thankful to our contributors. They have been insightful and helpful to our work.

While I give Deputy Lahart an opportunity to consider whether he wants to contribute again, I might follow up on the SWITCH model. I assume that it is some kind of software. It was outlined in the 2019 paper. Will the witnesses explain it a little? I see that the database was set out in terms of households from 2015 but that there was a significant update in 2019. Are we still largely just updating the 2015 data or is there a regular update based on new CSO figures? I presume that the CSO survey on income and living conditions is not the kind of survey conducted during the general census. I am unsure as to where we stand with the census at the moment, but if it has been delayed, will that pose a difficulty for the ESRI?

Dr. Karina Doorley

Dr. Keane can talk all day about administrative data and I can talk all day about SWITCH, so I will take this question. SWITCH has been in existence for approximately 30 years. Recently, we overhauled it completely. Basically, it is a giant tax benefit calculator that is linked to survey data from a representative sample of households. The current version of the model is linked to the 2016 survey on income and living conditions that the CSO provided to us. The survey included administrative information on welfare receipts by families. Using the survey's information on demographics, household composition, work history, income and so on, we can simulate families' tax and welfare entitlements. We can simulate the current income distribution because the SWITCH model programmes in all of the tax and welfare benefits that a particular household should be entitled to in light of everything we know about it from the survey.

We can also simulate counterfactuals. The model allows us to determine what would happen to income distribution if the tax rate was changed or all of budget 2022's changes were implemented. We use it a great deal in "What if" scenarios - what if this changed, what if that changed and how would it affect income distribution, poverty rates, income inequality, etc.

We update the model almost continuously but the data update usually happens every year. We introduced the 2019 data last year. It is unlikely that we will introduce 2020's data because they will be so skewed by the pandemic, but we have conducted a statistical procedure on the 2019 data to make them representative of the current population. It is called nowcasting, whereby we take into account employment and income levels in the current population and apply them to the rich survey information that we have. All of that is linked to the SWITCH model, which contains all the tax and welfare rules. The SWITCH model is based on a European platform called EUROMOD, which is used all over Europe in academia and policy circles for research and budget preparations.

That was a good overview. I thank Dr. Doorley. Did she say that five Departments had access to it and regularly used it?

Dr. Karina Doorley

Yes. The Departments of Social Protection, Public Expenditure and Reform, Finance, Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, and Health all have access to it. They all have active users within them and they regularly undertake pre-budget analysis using the model. Importantly, they have access to the model on the CSO server, so they are using the model without any input from us unless they need technical help or advice on how to model this or that. They access their results themselves, which guarantees budget secrecy. They can run their own analyses and communicate those to policymakers securely.

That makes sense. I imagine that the pandemic will pose a statistical challenge in the coming years in terms of the anomalies that it has thrown up. Parsing those data into a system will be a considerable challenge.

I do not see anyone's hand up for another question, so I suspect that we are at the end of this session. I thank Dr. Keane and Dr. Doorley for their attendance and for their assistance to the committee.

It has been an interesting conversation and it is my hope that some of it will be reflected in the report that we will hopefully write.

I thank our members for attending today. The meeting is now adjourned. The next public meeting of the committee will take place at 5.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 9 February.

The select committee adjourned at 7 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 9 February 2020.
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