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Committee on Budgetary Oversight debate -
Wednesday, 9 Feb 2022

Indexation of Taxation and Social Protection System: Discussion (Resumed)

Before we begin, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege in the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. However, today's witnesses are giving their evidence remotely from a place outside the parliamentary precincts and, as such, may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as witnesses who are physically present. Witnesses are again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise nor make charges against any person or entity, by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that may be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory with regard to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit members to participate where they are not adhering to the constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. Masks should continue to be worn by those present when not addressing the committee. I will remind members of this if necessary.

Today, we are engaging with representatives from the Institute for Fiscal Studies in the UK. The committee has agreed to examine indexation of the welfare and taxation system and has scheduled a series of public meetings on the topic. We intend to discuss several areas of interest, which include, but are not limited to, the rationale for indexation, the creation of an indexation system, the operation of that system and the impact of indexation on a budgetary sustainability cycle. Today is our third meeting on indexation. On behalf of the committee I welcome Mr. Paul Johnson, the director of the Institute for Fiscal Studies in the UK. Today's meeting is scheduled to finish no later than 7.30 p.m. I thank Mr. Johnson for his time. I am sure he is very busy.

Mr. Paul Johnson

I thank the Chairman. First, I apologise for the fact that my wife seems to have taken over the computer and I cannot stop it from saying that I am Nicola Wilberforce. I am, in fact, Paul Johnson. I will start with a few thoughts and reflections on the UK experience, which I think will be of interest and relevance, and I will try to draw out the broad lessons from that. I will talk about pensions, welfare benefits, tax thresholds and briefly about excise duties and a couple of other things.

Pension indexation is extraordinarily important. In the UK we had a long period, between about 1980 and 2010, of indexing the basic state pension just to price inflation. Over that period, the basic pension fell quite significantly as a fraction of average earnings, from something like 25% to not much more than 15%. While it maintained its real price index value, it fell further and further behind the general standard of living and was not offering much in the way of replacement rates. There was a big review of that in the early 2000s and a decision was made to move back to earnings indexation from 2010. It remains in the legislation that the pension should rise year on year in line with earnings. In fact, we have had in place a triple-lock system, which means that each year the pension rises according to earnings, prices, or 2.5%, whichever is the biggest. As a result, it has grown relative to both prices and earnings over that period, as this was an unusual period in which there were a number of years where prices outpaced earnings, as well as years in which earnings outpaced prices and, indeed, some years in which the 2.5% increase was brought into play. That has resulted in a relatively rapid increase in the value of the state pension relative both to prices and earnings over that period.

This is a very strange policy in one sense because if you rationally decided you wanted the pension to be at a particular level, either relative to earnings or prices, this would not be a very rational way of getting there. The defence of it is that it is the most politically acceptable way of getting the state pension to a higher level over a period of time. One of the general messages of indexation is that different ways of indexing things can make a very big difference over time, and it is a difference which often goes somewhat unnoticed politically. It makes a very big difference to future costs. Whether we continue with a triple lock or earnings indexation, let alone price indexation, we are talking about a couple of percentage points of national income within 30 years. This is a substantive choice about the rate at which pensions are indexed. It is a choice of whether to keep it at the same real level or to move it in line with other living standards.

I can speak more about pensions if the committee wishes.

Welfare benefits for those under the pension age have been significantly reformed over the past 30 or 40 years and some of those benefits, particularly for families with children, have been made very much more generous. The indexation rules have essentially been price indexation year on year over the past 40 or 50 years. For example, looking at the standard rate of unemployment benefit, it stands today at essentially the same level in price terms as it did in 1970, which is over 50 years ago. At the same time, of course, real earnings have something like tripled, although not quite tripled. The level of unemployment benefit for people without children is much lower. It is less than half the value relative to average earnings compared with where it was 50 years ago, and few people believe it is at a level where people could nowadays reasonably live on it.

It is worth saying that within recent years, specifically 2015 and 2019, these welfare benefits were frozen so they were not even indexed in line with inflation for a four-year period. That was used as a way of saving significant amounts of money on the welfare budget. The biggest cut to welfare benefits was over what is known as the austerity period in the UK through the 2010s, but it was the least remarked upon and, in a sense, the least unpopular, using indexation as a way of changing policy gradually, and this seeps through rather easily. Freezing things is a rather bad idea, and I will say a bit more about that with tax thresholds, as we do not know ex ante what the impact will be on the real level of the benefit. For the first couple of years of the freeze, inflation was lower than expected but after that it was higher than expected. Towards the end of the period, there was a bigger real cut than what was intended.

Tax thresholds are, on the whole within the income tax system, by default supposed to rise in line with prices. That was an amendment in a finance Bill in the 1970s that put this in as a default and the Chancellor must announce if the default is to be varied. We have seen very different policies on different tax thresholds, and the personal tax threshold below which a person pays no income tax rose very fast as part of a deliberate policy through the 2010s. It was well ahead of inflation then but it has now been frozen for the next four years, so it is a policy reversal. Again, this freezing of a personal tax threshold is a substantial tax rise over a four-year period. It is a bigger tax rise than was initially intended because inflation has turned out much higher than anticipated.

That is a personal tax threshold but there are other thresholds in the income tax system that really matter. The higher threshold is the point at which a person starts to pay 40% income tax as opposed to the standard 20% rate. Broadly speaking, it again has been subject to all sorts of changes, such as freezes, increases and so on, but it has risen much less quickly over the past 30 years than earnings and slightly less quickly than prices. The result, again not announced as a policy, is that we have something like four times the fraction of taxpayers who are higher rate taxpayers today than we had 30 years ago simply as a result of the way in which that threshold has been increased. It could be increased in line with prices, in which case the natural effect over time is to increase the number of higher rate taxpayers. It might be increased in line with earnings to, broadly speaking, keep the number of higher-rate taxpayers constant.

Some elements of the income tax system have been frozen since they were introduced. In particular, we have thresholds at £100,000 and £150,000, at which higher rates of income tax come into play. We have a 60% rate on incomes between £100,000 and £125,000, and that £100,000 threshold has been unchanged in 12 years. The point at which the 45p rate comes in at £150,000 is also unchanged over 12 years. The result has been something like a doubling of the number of people affected by those thresholds over time. I know this is a deliberate policy to take more money from relatively high-income people without announcing changes year on year. Those are big unannounced changes to the income tax system.

One could speak about other direct taxes but I will say something very briefly about excise duties. Again, one would expect excise duties to rise year on year in line with prices to keep their real value constant. Most excise duties in the UK are set in what I was going to call a random way on a year-by-year basis; the difference is they rise in line with prices. Excise duty on petrol and diesel has not even risen in line with prices for more than a decade now. It is simply being held constant in nominal terms. One of the biggest tax cuts of the past decade has been the effective fall in the real value of petrol and diesel duties because it was considered impossible politically to increase these even in line with prices.

There is a lesson here that has become very salient. If such things are increased once every year in a budget, once the increases stop, it becomes difficult to move back to doing so. One of our suggestions is that it may make sense to have monthly indexation so the duty goes up by a very small amount every month, and this makes the process much more stable.

There are all sorts of other aspects of public policy that are affected by indexation and the way in which regulated prices, for example, are indexed in rail and energy markets in the UK. One bit of public policy that has recently gained much attention is the way in which elements of the student loan and maintenance systems are indexed, so the threshold beyond which graduates start to repay student loans was frozen this year. It had increased significantly three or four years ago and it was frozen before that. These are supposed to be loans and the threshold is supposed to go up with earnings each year. In practice, again, policy is made on the hoof each year in a way that makes it even more clear that this is simply a graduate tax. Again, one might use indexation to change the structure of that system quite significantly. It is worth saying the maximum loan level has only changed once in the past decade, while the real value of money going to universities has fallen over that period. Through lack of indexation, there have also been significant cuts in the level of student maintenance loans.

These are just a series of examples from the UK perspective of different ways in which different parts of the tax and welfare system have experienced indexation over the past 40 or 50 years in some cases. It is really a statement of the very great importance that indexation plays. As a commentator, I significantly dislike the lack of transparency often involved in the way the structure of tax and welfare systems changes because of the way indexation is not used. There are clearly very big and deep questions in many cases as to whether appropriate indexation is in line with prices or earnings. There are quite deep political and philosophical issues to explore there. We should go into those decisions with a very clear view of the impact. Freezing thresholds and so on is something one can do to change structures significantly over time, but one really ought to be very transparent about that as a policy objective.

I thank Mr. Johnson and that is a very useful overview.

I am sorry for butting in and butting out. There are three meetings going on so forgive me if I repeat what I have said before. I will say what I want to say in one fell swoop.

I always hear how we can improve the systems and that we should try to do that. My worry is that, before the economic crash in this country, numerous people were quoting from time to time that we were one of the wealthiest countries in the world and that we should be doing more of this, that and the other, and we had the private sector and some of the public sector saying we deserved more just because we deserved it. As we know, things do not work out that way and they did not work out that way. My question is this. How does the linking of taxation and social welfare, for example, give the latitude to the Government that it may need to respond to a particular situation without disrupting the whole fabric of taxation in particular, given the extent to which indexation might impact on the freedom of Government to direct budgetary policy?

I have not carried out a comparison myself in recent times but I have had some private discussions with constituents in regard to pensions from other jurisdictions. How do we fare in comparison with other jurisdictions such as, for example, the UK and in the rest of Europe? Are we behind the curve and do we need to urgently improve the situation?

With regard to the reduction in inflation, to which Mr. Johnson made reference, how does it affect the general population if the indexation is working as it is supposed to work? How smoothly can it reduce, or is it likely to reduce, payments to people who receive State pensions in the short term?

Does Mr. Johnson wish to respond?

Mr. Paul Johnson

I will try. I am not convinced I can respond to all of that. I am certainly no expert on the Irish pension system. In terms of indexation, you can decide to what extent to allow it to tie your hands. I understand there are clearly times when people might want to move away from a stated policy but there is a great deal to be said for a stated default such that the expectation is that each year, unless there is some very good reason not to, whatever we are talking about – be it tax thresholds, welfare benefits or pensions – will rise by whatever we decide they are going to rise by in terms of pensions earnings, inflation earnings or whatever else. If people do move away from that, I think there is a strong case for, first, giving a clear explanation that they are doing it, second, what the effect will be and, third, how long we expect that to last. There is a strong case for an intended path and a default and for moving away from that in relatively unusual circumstances.

One of my concerns about UK policy on taxation, for example, is that the movement from the default is pretty much constant. In some cases, it is up one year and down the next and, in other cases, it has left us kind of stuck with the unintended consequence with regard to fuel duties that it becomes almost impossible to make the change.

In terms of what the impact of different levels of inflation are, one thing we are obviously facing in the UK is higher inflation than we have seen in a very long time. One consequence of that, particularly for people who are subsisting on welfare benefits, is that by the end of the fiscal year, they will be 7% worse off than they were last April. That is something we used to worry about a lot in the 1970s but it is not something we have had to worry about too much recently. Whatever the level of inflation, if we want to maintain the real value of anything, we probably need to increase the thresholds or benefits in line with that inflation. Of course, governments can decide to make different use of indexation provisions. For example, the UK Government is going to be looking very hard at public sector pay over this year. With inflation at over 7%, clearly, any pay increase of less than that will be a real cut which, from a fiscal point of view, will be something the Treasury will be quite keen on, but which would result in yet further cuts in real levels of pay, which have been going down over a period. As ever, there is an awful lot to trade off in these decisions.

Thank you. I have an easy question in regard to inflation. To what extent are we vulnerable in terms of international trends and issues? My reason for raising that question is that, some years ago, I was in another European country that had a very busy port and there were about ten oil tankers anchored far offshore. When I inquired as to what they were doing there, I was told they were waiting for the price of oil to increase. How vulnerable are we to the manipulation of the system by external forces which will have the effect of accelerating inflation to the detriment of our respective economies across Europe?

Mr. Paul Johnson

Inflation at the moment across Europe is largely externally generated. This is not inflation, whether in the UK or, I am sure, in Ireland, that is created by increases in wage costs, for example. It has been created, as we know, by increases in energy costs and by problems with supply chains across the world. The UK, as a relatively small open economy, and the Republic of Ireland, as a much smaller open economy, are very much impacted by trends elsewhere in the world. If we look further back, a large part of the low levels of price inflation we have seen over the past 20 years has been attributed by at least some people to the opening up of China and elsewhere, and the resulting cheap manufactured products that we have been able to purchase. Therefore, yes, external changes are very important for domestic inflation.

Thank you. I call Deputy Mairéad Farrell.

Go raibh maith agat. I thank Mr. Johnson for appearing before the committee. We appreciate it as this is something we have been looking at for quite some time. We know Mr. Johnson is very busy and we appreciate him coming to speak to us today to add to that conversation. I apologise as I was a little late coming in.

First, what does Mr. Johnson think would be the best anchor for indexation? What calculations would he use for that? Should taxes and social welfare payments be indexed to the same measure?

Mr. Paul Johnson

It depends what one is trying to achieve in the end. For welfare benefits and pensions, for example, if what we want to achieve is that those who are not in work share in the changes in living standards of those who are in work, then earnings is the appropriate measure to use. If, on the other hand, we believe we have them at some form of subsistence level, or at a level that we think is the appropriate absolute level over a period of time, then prices might be right. I think it is quite hard to justify price indexation over very long periods because we lose that link between the real living standards and what we are paying the payments for.

That is where we got with pensions in the UK by the early 2000s and it is where we are today on at least some welfare benefits.

When it comes to tax thresholds, again it depends on what one is trying to achieve. If thresholds are increased only in line with prices and in normal times, when earnings are going up faster than prices, the tax burden will be gradually increased. Given demographic pressures, pressures on spending on health and so on, one may want to increase the tax burden. That is politically a relatively easy way to increase the tax burden but, again, there is a lot to be said for transparency in that regard. Broadly speaking, the neutral method of indexation is probably to increase that in line with earnings or incomes such that the tax burden is not gradually increased. As I said, that is a clear policy option.

Is it Mr. Johnson's view that all social protection payments should be included?

Mr. Paul Johnson

Is the Deputy talking about welfare benefits?

Yes. We call them social protection payments.

Mr. Paul Johnson

Again, different views on this may be taken. It may be thought that there is a different case for incapacity benefits, for example. It may or may not be thought that issues around work incentives and so on are less important than unemployment benefits. One might want to do those differently. It may be thought that some benefits are at relatively the wrong level at the moment. Broadly speaking, I agree with the thought behind what the Deputy says, that quite a good reason is needed for doing this differently between different benefits. Over the past 30 years, one consequence of a series of policy changes, including, importantly, the increase in the state pension considerably faster than prices or earnings and the fact that welfare benefits for people under pension age have gone up if anything a little less quickly than prices, is that the gap between those has grown dramatically from about 30%. Thirty years or so ago, the state pension was about 30% higher than unemployment benefit for a single person; it is now about 130% higher. That has changed dramatically the relationship between the generosity of benefits for those below and above state pension age. Obviously, that matters very much if someone is out of work. At the point at which people hit state pension age their income goes up a lot but at the point below that they are very badly off. That is seen replicated exactly in the income statistics such that even the poorest pensioners over state pension age have seen their incomes rise reasonably significantly over the past 30 years but the poorest people in their early 60s have not seen that increase. The gap between the poor just below pension age and the poor just above pension age is open, and that is significantly though not entirely down to indexation policy.

That is really interesting. This is slightly off point but it is something I have noticed more and more in my clinics. I will have been a public representative for eight years come May, and it is only in recent times, in the past few months, that I have found more and more people in their late 50s and early 60s really struggling with accommodation and so on. Obviously, housing is a big crisis here at the moment. What Mr. Johnson says is very interesting to note.

Is my time up, Chair?

No. You have some more time.

Sorry. I heard some background noise and I did not know whether it was the Chair.

I have another question. We have heard in this committee calls for an independent body similar to a low pay commission to oversee indexation. Does Mr. Johnson think it would be worthwhile to have an independent body that would oversee indexation?

Mr. Paul Johnson

It depends what the Deputy means by "oversee". It would be difficult to have an independent body making decisions about indexation, given what an important part of the tax and welfare system it is. To me, it is fundamentally political. However, as for having a body able to recommend on the basis of a particular remit or comment on the basis of a particular remit on the direction that policy is taking as a result of choices over indexation, there could be some benefit to that, again, certainly in increasing transparency and accountability. Because people suffer from money illusion, because indexation is a complex issue and because freezing something can look like no change when it can be a significant and real change, anything that increases transparency in that regard and in people's understanding of this would be extremely worthwhile. It could be that an independent body or person with a remit to do that would be of some value. As I said, though, those decisions feel to me to be too fundamentally political to farm out to technocrats, much as we technocrats would love to be in charge.

I am sure.

I have one last question. It is about the impact of the State pension triple lock on budget sustainability. What has that been? Although I hate to say it, we are probably coming into budget season again. It basically starts in March to April for us.

Mr. Paul Johnson

I will give the Deputy a flavour of where we are in the UK. The cost of state pensions has not risen as a factor in national income in the past decade because the female state pension age has risen from 60 to 66 and the male pension age from 65 to 66 over that period. What we have had, therefore, is a saving, as it were, because we have been increasing state pension ages, and a cost associated with the triple lock has been in place and they have been broadly offsetting over that period. Looking forward 20 years, we will see the state pension - I forget the precise numbers but I am referring to a triple lock scenario - taking up another 2% or 3% of national income within 20 or 30 years. National income is quite a lot compared with an increase in line with earnings, where there is an increase of about half that amount, so indexation does matter. If the increase were in line only with prices, that would go down further. As for the UK budget sustainability, if earnings indexation of pensions is done and we continue with planned increases in the pension age, we are adding a percentage point or two to national income and to public spending when we and, I think, many advanced countries are facing bigger challenges in the healthcare system, but that is a topic for another day.

I thank Mr. Johnson for joining us.

Mr. Johnson is very welcome. It is great to listen to his take given his experience in the UK. I will go back to his point that people in their 50s or 60s who are out of work are getting a relatively poor jobseeker's allowance or jobseeker's benefit, as we call it here. Then when people come to pension age they come into a different category. I might have missed what Mr. Johnson said. Is it just the pensions that are index-linked or are all social welfare payments index-linked?

Mr. Paul Johnson

For anyone over state pension age, all social welfare payments are index-linked in a similar way. For anyone below state pension age, they are all just in line with prices.

To get a bit of comparability on this, do all single people or people who retire at 66 in the UK now get a state pension? Are they contributory or non-contributory? How does that work?

Mr. Paul Johnson

Most people will get the full contributory state pension. Certainly, going forward, almost everybody will get the full state pension. It is increasing. It is in principle contributory so long as the person has been in the country for, I think, 30 years. It is pretty hard to avoid - at least going forward it will be - getting the full pension. Time spent as a student, time spent looking after children, time spent sick or disabled and time spent unemployed count towards years of contributions, so, certainly going forward, pretty much only the idle rich or those who have spent a long time out of the country can avoid having a full pension.

What is the level of the pension that-----

Mr. Paul Johnson

I do not have an exact number at this time. It is approximately £160 a week.

Per person. For a person in the UK who is unemployed and 60 years of age, what is the rate of jobseeker's benefit or-----

Mr. Paul Johnson

It is approximately £70 a week. These are rough numbers but it is-----

Yes, but it gives me an idea. The other part of it is that we are in discussions here about the pension age and increasing the pension age. There are several scenarios in front of us. The current pension age is 66 and we are discussing whether we should increase that going forward or whether we should increase the PRSI levy to pay for the pension deficit that may be there in future. Interestingly, Mr. Johnson said that because the UK increased the retirement age upwards from 60 to 66, the overall cost of indexation has been more or less balanced out. I refer to the fact that the numbers are not coming in as quickly as one would have thought in the context of the age threshold having been changed. Has a calculation been done in that regard? What is the increase, percentage-wise, in the overall bills in the context of just having indexation without actually increasing the age at which people can enter into a pension?

Mr. Paul Johnson

I do not have that number to hand but there are several things going on there. As regards the impact of increasing the state pension age, we see that it has contributed to a reasonably significant increase in the number of women in work. The pension age for women has gone from 60 to 66, while for men it has gone from 65 to 66. Each year, one can see a significant increase in the number of people coming up to pension age who are in work, although that number is in the tens of thousands in context of the cohort of approximately 700,000 or 800,000. When the state pension age went up to 66, there were approximately 50,000 additional people in work. The behaviour of most people is not impacted. There are some whose behaviour is impacted but the majority of people are already out of the labour market by the time they get to 65. Certainly in the case of the most recent increase, particularly for men, the people most likely to have been persuaded to stay in work are the relatively low-paid. People who are highly paid are either able to retire early anyway or would have been in work in any case.

In terms of controlling the cost of pensions going forward, indexation is one method and the state pension age is clearly the other method. If the state pension age is increased in line with longevity, that has quite a big impact on the sustainability of the system going forward. Identifying the appropriate rate of increase is sort of a political, not just technocratic, question. One of the things we have certainly experienced in the UK is an astonishing increase in life expectancy in the past 40 years, with no increase in the State pension age before 2010 and, for men only a one-year increase in the state pension age despite something like a ten-year increase in longevity in that period. Thus far, not all of the gains, at least for men, have come in additional years in receipt of pension rather than any sort of sharing of that in terms of higher pension ages.

Very good. That is very interesting. As regards the overall issue of indexation, the discussion here includes all social welfare benefits, including jobseeker's allowance, disability allowances and the whole area of social protection, which is probably where most of the certainty needs to be in place for people who cannot work for a particular reason. We need to consider how they will be protected until they get to pension age. What comment or advice does Mr. Johnson have on tackling an issue such as that?

Mr. Paul Johnson

As I said a moment ago, there has been a real consequence of doing the two in the UK, that is, indexing quite differently between the lower pension age and above-pension-age benefits in terms of the much greater importance the state pension age now has for some people. In terms of the indexation of benefits under pension age, although, broadly speaking, they go up in line with prices and will go up at the same rate, when we had the four-year freeze on working-age benefits, that did not apply to incapacity benefit. There was a clear policy decision that in some sense, those on incapacity benefits were more deserving than those on unemployment benefits. As I stated earlier, it is quite difficult to make the case for long-term price indexation for most of these benefits because that is clearly a choice to make that group of people worse off relative to the rest of the population. If that is the choice that is going to be made, it needs to be made explicitly clear that the choice is to make that group of people worse off relative to people in work.

I again thank Mr. Johnson for joining us.

I thank Mr. Johnson for his detailed responses and the overview he provided earlier. Unfortunately, I missed part of the discussion but quite a bit of information has been provided and some of the questions I wished to put to Mr. Johnson have been partly answered. When one starts indexing, where does one draw the lines or how far does one go? I note the UK has drawn a line at the pension age and treated people differently or treated payments differently depending on whether they are for younger people or older people. Is it only on the core social welfare payment for people under the pension age or does it also extend out into indexing in taxation or in other benefits such as qualification or thresholds for housing or medical cards and so on? How wide is it? How did the UK decide on that pension threshold? Why were the lines drawn where they were drawn when indexing was being introduced? Mr. Johnson may have answered my next question already. Does the UK look forward to wages or back to inflation when indexing? How was that decision reached?

Mr. Paul Johnson

There is quite a lot in that. We have covered most of it one way or another. When it comes to benefits below pension age, most of them just go up in line with inflation pretty much automatically. Different choices are made at times to freeze them to save money. The Deputy mentioned housing benefits, which is quite an interesting issue. I refer to where there are thresholds in the system. The maximum housing benefit one can get is set according to the local area in which a person lives, the size of his or her family and so on. It is set at the 20th percentile of rent for a property for that family type in that area. However, it is set at that level at a particular date and that maximum amount is then indexed in line with inflation each year.

That has a number of curious effects. Given that on the whole, rental costs go up faster than other prices, the real amount of housing you can buy with that maximum allowance goes down over time. The more curious one is that because rental costs go up at different rates in different areas, we get a world in which these are much more generous in some parts of the country than in other parts of the country due to the way-----

Does that mean there was no catch up or adjustment when the system was up and running and it just moved along from where it was rather than trying to fill in a gap and then everybody moving together?

Mr. Paul Johnson

It moved along for about seven years without any catch up through to the pandemic. There was a change then to be more generous and that has been re-based. It has been re-based by accident but that was not an explicit intention. The Deputy is right. You certainly can re-base these things.

How was the decision arrived at on how the re-basing was going to be done?

Mr. Paul Johnson

Changes were made as a response to the pandemic and then we were in the new year. It was re-based in that year.

It is not like there was a decision that everybody was going to start at one third of the range or whatever it was.

Mr. Paul Johnson

No.

Is the indexing influencing tax rates? If so, is it influencing all tax rates? Where do you draw the line there?

Mr. Paul Johnson

The way in which tax thresholds are indexed in income tax has made a big difference to the structure of income tax. If you look back 30 years, we effectively had a single rate of income tax covering the large majority of people and a higher rate affecting only 5% or 6% of people. Given the way the thresholds have been indexed over that period, we have moved without anyone announcing it to a world in which something like one fifth of income taxpayers are paying that higher 40% rate. This is entirely down to the way in which the higher rate threshold has been changed and certainly has not risen anything like as quickly as earnings over that period. Although it has gone up and down at different points in time over that period, there was nothing like a consistent policy over that period, although it has been particularly noticeable over the past ten or 15 years post-2010.

Sorry for interrupting but is it only on personal taxation or is it on other forms of taxation such as motor tax, duty on cigarettes or alcohol or excise?

Mr. Paul Johnson

In each case, there is a default and the default is the rise in line with price inflation. Tobacco tends to go up somewhat quicker than that over time. Regarding alcohol, I cannot remember how it averaged out but we get different policies every year depending on how much of a cheer the Chancellor wants when he announces that beer duty is not going up. The big one really has been the failure to index petrol and diesel taxation, which has been stuck at the same nominal level for 12 years. As I said earlier, that is one of the biggest tax cuts we have had in real terms over the past 12 years. One of the bizarre aspects of this is that the default remains that it goes up in line with prices and, therefore, the deal with Government policies is that, next year, it will go up in line with prices and, therefore, all the fiscal forecasts must assume that fuel duties will rise in line with inflation knowing full well that they never do so it is a very odd sort of world in which official policy - the law - states this will rise in line with inflation next year and it is always undone in the budget yet you must forecast if you are the official forecaster on the assumption that something will happen that you know will not happen. That is an example of very poor and un-transparent policy making. When the Chancellor looks at his budget numbers, the numbers always assume that this thing is going up in line with prices, which always flatter the truth. It is a relatively small point but it is a slightly absurd situation that we have reached.

I have some questions for Mr. Johnson. I must be honest. I am slightly intrigued by his outlining of indexation in terms of the politically acceptable way of increasing certain rates and his description of the fuel tax and its failure to increase in line with inflation. I will be honest. The reason some of us here are interested in this issue is because during our budgetary cycle, welfare increases are often based on the political issues of the day and not necessarily on fiscal metrics in any way. Could Mr. Johnson talk about the mechanisms by which when even if you have an indexation system, it is set to one side during the course of political action? He mentioned that there have been freezes on particular welfare rates. Are there other mechanisms by which basically indexation is set aside?

Mr. Paul Johnson

I mean in different areas, indexation is set aside very frequently. There are default rules about income tax thresholds and benefits. I have not been looking at adding this up but my guess is that certainly for tax thresholds, what happens is more frequently not in line with the default than it is in line with the default. The basic rate threshold was raised more quickly in one period of time than inflation while in others, it did not really rise with inflation at all. The higher threshold was bumped up and down, although broadly speaking, it was down relative to earnings over time. There were bits of the tax system, in particular the threshold for the very highest rates, which are not indexed at all.

Allowances relating to pension taxation are a rather important aspect. For example, allowances for how much you can put into a pension have been changed quite dramatically over time. Again, that is not something that most people notice most of the time but one of the biggest tax changes in the past decade has been the very big cuts in those allowances. Essentially, there is plenty of scope for British Governments and British Chancellors to do whatever they want whenever they want in terms of these indexations.

For the state pension, the legislation only allows for earnings indexation. It is policy that is set each year that decides on the triple lock. Most years, working-age welfare benefits do rise in line with prices. Between 2015 and 2019 when as part of the Conservatives carrying out their manifesto commitment to bring about a significant reduction in welfare spending, the easiest part of that politically for them was a four-year freeze on the level of welfare benefits. It is certainly a very big cut, which got very little negative publicity.

One of the things we have been looking at in detail is which metric we should link indexation to.

We have been examining what other countries have done. From my perspective, many countries that have had indexation operating for some time began by linking it to a consumer price index of some sort but are now moving it more towards wages. What has been the debate on this in the UK? The UK is considering changing its consumer price index, CPI, or that basket of goods that is covered, slightly. Will Mr. Johnson speak to us about that process?

Mr. Paul Johnson

I could speak about the construction of the CPI for a long time. The CPI itself is not being changed. Actually, there are many things happened, so let me go back a step. In terms of prices, we used to index everything to the retail prices index, RPI, which is a different measure of price inflation than the consumer price index. It is the longest standing index in the UK and has been produced on a somewhat consistent basis for 70 years or so. It is wrong in the sense that it overstates inflation for technical reasons that I will not go into. This became evident in 2010 when some changes were made to the collection of clothing prices and the gap between the RPI and the CPI grew significantly. Up to that point, most price indexation was in line with the RPI. Gradually over the past decade, most of it has moved into line with the CPI, which is the more correct measure of inflation. However, the British Government has left some areas where the RPI is still the basis for indexation. This includes some regulated prices, for example, interest rates on student loans and one or two other matters. It was noticeably slower to move from the RPI to the CPI where it was beneficial fiscally to keep to the RPI and quicker to move to the CPI where doing so saved money. We have got most of the way from the RPI to the CPI, though. As such, how inflation is measured matters. We need to get it right, which we were not for a long time. Indeed, we got it significantly wrong, particularly post 2010.

The Chairman might also be referring to moves to look at different measures of inflation for different kinds of household. Households at the lower end of the income distribution or spending distribution spend a higher fraction of their budgets on things like energy and food. Households at the higher end of the distribution spend more on holidays, services, electronic gizmos etc. Those do not necessarily go up at the same rate over time, although from what we can tell in the UK, there has not been any significant divergence for some time in the rate of price changes faced by households in different parts of the distribution. That remains true even now, although we expect that to change over the next two or three months as energy prices start to bite, and they will definitely bite more for those towards the bottom of the income distribution.

There is then an interesting question as to whether, year by year, we want to have measures of prices that are sensitive to the different rates of inflation that may be faced by different groups in the population. If one were to increase pensions in line with prices, for example, one might want a pension price index. We have produced those in the past. For those on welfare benefits, one might want a price index that looks at the basket of goods that they purchase. These things are doable. When there are significant differences - such times exist - there may be some benefit in doing this, but one would need to be careful about a proliferation of price indices and price index shopping. One needs to move to decisions in that direction carefully and with considerable consensus. Otherwise, we would be in danger of creating a great deal of instability. I can imagine a world where it was decided for all the best possible reasons to increase welfare benefits in line with a price index that was determined by the spending patterns of the poorest people. There could easily be a year where that index was much lower than or even negative compared with the overall price index. In those circumstances, it might prove difficult to implement.

I thank Mr. Johnson. That was illuminating.

Something that we have not considered in any great detail during our sessions is the question of how indexation would interact with regulated prices. Mr. Johnson spoke at length about student loans. We do not have that same scenario, but issues like rail and energy would be of great interest in this regard. Both of our countries are experiencing a very particular level of inflation right now. Will Mr. Johnson expand on what kind of effect indexation might have on regulated items?

Mr. Paul Johnson

There are many ways in which various regulated prices are increased. It is a current issue where student loans are concerned because there are different parts. With one exception, the regulated price for university tuition has been frozen for a decade. That is essentially a saving for the Government because it means universities get less. It does not make much difference for most students how much they must pay off because most do not pay off the full amount in any case. What really matters to the student is the threshold above which he or she starts paying off the loan. In principle, that is supposed to rise each year in line with earnings but was effectively frozen for a time before seeing a large increase. It then rose in line with earnings and has now been frozen again. This is not a loan. It is not how people who make loans are allowed to behave.

I will try to remember how the system works for other regulated areas. Rail fares have historically been linked to the RPI plus a certain amount. The RPI already overstates what inflation is. In periods of high inflation like now, it is within the power of the Executive to cut that link. While there are defaults, those defaults are easily overridden. There are other examples. The BBC licence fee, which is a tax in national statistics terms at least, is set. There is no default for that and it has been frozen for the next several years, which means a big cut in its value over time.

We are increasingly in a world where the Government is understandably reacting to high levels of inflation by overriding the defaults in some cases, as with rail fares, and in others by making political decisions about the amount of money it wants to go to institutions like universities and the BBC.

That brings me to my final question. It might not be in Mr. Johnson's wheelhouse, but I am trying to get a sense of what aspects of indexation are British Government policy and which are set down in legislation. My assumption is that, while elements like the triple lock are legislative and binding, we have established that much of indexation can be largely set aside or varied at the behest of the Government.

I am aware that Mr. Johnson is not a legislator, but in the context of his understanding of the matter, how much of indexation is policy and how much is legislative?

Mr. Paul Johnson

The triple lock is not legislative; that is policy. What is legislated is the earnings indexation. The Government decides to deem the higher of the earnings indexation prices at 2.5%. That is not legislated for. If it wanted to do less than earnings indexation, then that does require legislation. For most, if not all, other changes certainly within the tax system, while there is the default in legislation, where things go up in line with prices, all the Chancellor needs to do is stand up and say that it is going to do something different, and that goes through the Finance Bill, and something different happens. As I have said, that happens on a very regular basis. If the Chancellor did not say anything, then there is a series of defaults, which are set out in legislation. Assuming he can get his budget through Parliament, however, he then has executive control over pretty much all of this on an annual basis. I am pretty sure that things like the student loan thresholds and so on can be changed by statutory instrument, or similar measures. The truth is that most of this is effectively within the hands of the Executive on an annual basis, even where legislation exists to provide defaults.

I thank Mr. Johnson. I do not see any other members indicating. We are nearly at the end of our session. I will ask Mr. Johnson a final question. Considering the leeway it still allows, in Mr. Johnson's estimation as a professional in the sector, is indexation a worthwhile set of benchmarks to provide to governments?

Mr. Paul Johnson

Hugely so. It is one of the most important parts of fiscal policy, both in tax and welfare. Having those defaults and being clear what one is trying to achieve with that is incredibly important. The default on tax thresholds was set in the 1970s by a couple of Labour politicians at the time, Jeff Rooker and Audrey Wise. Famously known as the Rooker-Wise amendment, it was designed specifically, particularly in periods of high inflation, to create this default whereby things would go up in line with inflation. Over a period, it totally changes the structure of a tax welfare or pension system and how ones does indexation. As I said, we had a clear policy between 1980 and 2010 to increase the State pension only in line with prices. That fundamentally changed the nature of the State pension and the structure of our pension system, just as the current indexation system is changing it again. The structure of our income tax system is being changed fundamentally by the failure to index the higher rate threshold, for example the failure to index the duty on petrol has fundamentally changed the structure of the whole of that system, and we have lost so much money as a result.

There are few things more important than having a real debate about indexation policy in order to get a clear understanding of what it is. I am delighted that the committee is looking at this, and I am very pleased to have a chance to talk to the committee about it. I really do think it is terribly important.

Mr. Johnson's is the third of four sessions and we will write a report at the end of this process. We will issue a copy of the report to Mr. Johnson. I thank him very much for his time. It has been an absolutely fascinating discussion to get the experience of our nearest neighbour on this. We really appreciate it. Again, I thank him for his time; I know he is busy.

The select committee adjourned at 6.44 p.m. until 4.45 p.m. on Wednesday, 16 February 2022.
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