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COMMITTEE ON PROCEDURE AND PRIVILEGES (Sub-Committee on Seanad Reform) debate -
Wednesday, 17 Sep 2003

Vol. 1 No. 2

Presentation by Irish Auctioneers and Valuers Institute.

Witnesses: Mr. Aidan O'Hogan and Mr. Alan Cooke.

We are very pleased that the Irish Auctioneers and Valuers Institute made a submission and welcome the delegation.

While members of the sub-committee enjoy absolute privilege, the same privilege does not extend to witnesses who have only qualified privilege. The delegation may take it that we have read the institute's submission carefully. I suggest the delegates encapsulate its contents and then we will engage in questioning. The questioners will be Senators Brian Hayes and O'Toole, but any of us may contribute. Delegates are welcome to alternate in answering the questions.

Mr. O’Hogan

Thank you, Chairman, for having us in. I am president of the institute. Mr. Alan Cooke is our chief executive. He will take us quickly through the document the sub-committee received and we are happy to go into the questioning immediately afterwards, if that suits.

Mr. Cooke

The submission was brief and the précis will be briefer still. The Irish Auctioneers and Valuers Institute was founded in 1922 and now comprises an all-Ireland body representing 1,600 members and associate members with a degree entry standard for full membership. The IAVI is a member of the principal international property organisations and a nominating body for Seanad elections. It represents the property industry in Ireland and all of the national agencies are among its 500 member firms. Apart from estate agency and valuation, members of the IAVI work in property in various State and semi-State organisations. In fact, in our submission we have listed close to 50 organisations in which members of the IAVI work.

As a body with nominating powers under Seanad election legislation, the IAVI would make the following comments. On the composition of Seanad Éireann and the manner and basis of election, Seanad Éireann was designed as a vocational House but has operated, virtually throughout its existence and with only minor exceptions, as a political House. The IAVI does not envisage this position changing and questions the methodology for nominating candidates for many Seanad election panels. It is not productive that bodies such as the IAVI are asked to nominate candidates who must then seek the votes of an electoral college comprised entirely of politicians. It is extremely difficult in such circumstances for a candidate to secure election to the Seanad without the backing of the political parties. In effect what happens, with rare exceptions, is that nominating bodies are requested by politically active individuals to grant those individuals a nomination. Only a minority of nominees, we believe, have a real connection with the body which nominates them to the panel in question. Thus the vocational aspect of the original design of the Seanad no longer exists, if it ever did. If I may step aside for a moment and say Senator O'Toole is a notable exception in that regard, but occasionally exceptions do prove the rule in that he is a vocational Senator nominated by one of the teaching bodies.

It is questionable whether a truly vocational model, even if it worked, is merited in the modern economic world. Either the power to elect members of Seanad Éireann should be removed from politicians and given to the public or else the power to nominate candidates to electoral panels should be taken over completely by the political parties as it is their members who in the end dictate who is elected.

On university representation, either in its current or an amended form, the wording used presupposes that university representation will continue and does not allow for its discontinuance. We find this an odd way to carry out this type of review as it suggests the predetermination of an issue which is surely open to question. While the entry standard for full membership of the body making this submission, the IAVI, is now at degree standard and its own direct entry programme carries an honours B.Sc degree, we find the fact that six Seanad seats are reserved for graduates to be both elitist and outdated. It is elitist in that it suggests that graduates are more deserving than others of representation in a democratic House of the Oireachtas. It may have been intended that graduate Senators would balance truly vocational Senators, but the system does not elect vocational candidates and surely the justification for retaining a specified number of seats for university graduates has gone. Even within this elitism, the current system of election, where three seats are reserved for graduates of a single university with the other three being reserved for other universities, is imbalanced and undemocratic, as an examination of the votes secured by successful and unsuccessful university candidates will show.

The current system is also elitist and outdated in that it excludes graduates from other colleges. If the six seats must be preserved, there should be a single electoral college comprising all graduates in Ireland, not just those from universities. However, we believe the preservation of these seats for such an elitist grouping does not reflect the Ireland of the 21st century and is bureaucratically cumbersome and costly. We, therefore, recommend that the university seats in Seanad Éireann be abolished, making the Seanad more democratic and more representative of the common citizen.

On the nomination of Senators by the Taoiseach, in general the IAVI believes that in recent years this privilege has been used imaginatively by successive Taoisigh and sees no real need for great change. Perhaps, however, two of the 11 nominations should be at the behest of the Leader of the Opposition as the Seanad can become overly dominated by Senators from incumbent Government parties.

On the most appropriate basis for providing representation for emigrants and persons from Northern Ireland, once again this is worded in a manner that predetermines whether there should be such representation, which is surely questionable in terms of an open review. The Seanad is a costly House run and paid for by the population of the Republic of Ireland. There is an old political adage: no representation without taxation, that is, that those who pay to run a country should elect its representatives. With the exception of the Taoiseach nominating prominent people from Northern Ireland within his or her nominees, should he or she so wish, the IAVI does not believe those who do not live in the Republic should have direct representation in Seanad Éireann.

Moving to the functions of the Seanad, we have very little to say on the role of Seanad Éireann in the passage of legislation. In the view of the IAVI, the Seanad has performed well in this function. On the contribution the Seanad could make to enhance parliamentary accountability and scrutiny, with 166 elected and fully paid Dáil Deputies many of whom are hardly taxed in terms of Dáil time, the IAVI sees little need to enhance the role of a part-time Seanad and would prefer to see Dáil resources, including its elected Members, used more effectively and fully in this regard. Similarly as to the extent to which the Seanad could engage in the review of public policy, etc., the comments made previously are relevant.

Having regard to the plethora of legislation, etc., emanating from the European Union, there is a need for much greater vigilance by Members of the Oireachtas. Too often it is left to those outside the Oireachtas with a keen interest in a particular matter to see what is happening and raise the issue with the relevant Department if they wish to have any influence on the Government's response to an issue. Such individuals and organisations do not, as a consequence, feel well served by their elected representatives in this particular regard. Consultation that occurs tends to be inadequate, with insufficient openness and inclusivity. The public, the business community and other interested parties deserve better. It would enable the Government's position on most EU issues to be a considered view and truly representative of Irish interests and needs were Seanad Éireann to act as a watchdog for Ireland, keep fully abreast of EU developments, flag those developments early to interested parties in this country and encourage and facilitate full and open consultation.

I trust the foregoing views will be of use to the committee's review under the chairmanship of Senator Mary O'Rourke and we wish the committee well in its deliberations.

I thank Mr. Cooke and Mr. O'Hogan for making this presentation and their submission. One of the original ideas behind the Seanad when it was established was to allow all vocational and business interests to be represented. I assure both gentlemen that auctioneers are very well represented in the current and previous Seanaid. One of the healthiest debates that took place this year was on the issue of auctioneers. I notice that Mr. Cooke made a very kind reference to Senator O'Toole. He may not have made it if he had read some of Senator O'Toole's comments about auctioneers. I thank the IAVI for its submission, which is very clear and to the point.

Am I right in saying the IAVI does not want the power to nominate unless it has the power to vote and that if the present system continues, the power to nominate should go to political parties or be done directly in an electoral sense? Is that a fair representation of what Mr. Cooke said? I understood from the presentation that the institute's current power to nominate is regarded as a bit of a joke by its members because they are not given the power to vote. I believe that would be the experience of other bodies. Could the witnesses comment further on this?

I was very interested to hear the suggestion that the Leader of the Opposition should appoint two Senators. My own party has had some experience of opposition in recent years and I suspect we would support that idea too. When the institute brought forward that suggestion, had it in mind different categories of Members to be appointed or would this purely be at the behest of the Leader of the Opposition? Is the institute thinking of party political people or people who are independent of politics? Could Mr. Cooke or Mr. O'Hogan expand on this further?

Mr. Cooke

Senator Hayes correctly identifies a sense of frustration with the nominating process. We have successfully nominated IAVI members in the past. Senator Alexis FitzGerald was nominated by our organisation. If we went further into the history of the institute, we would probably find that others were elected. Our experience in recent times is that politicians who are unknown to us provide a CV, we may or may not interview them and then make a formal nomination. After that it is out of our hands. We know it is down to the political process. Unless there is support from a political party, no individual will be elected.

I accept Senator Hayes's point that there are auctioneers in the Oireachtas and that is a point we might address with the committee. A suggestion was made that a number of professions should be effectively debarred from holding office. In that context, it would be reasonable to suggest that the auctioneering profession might be considered in that context, not to protect politics from auctioneers but the reverse. The track records of politicians who are also auctioneers show that they tend to be politicians initially who have taken up an auctioneering licence, for whatever reason. One can do this without qualifications or experience, due to our poor legislation in that area. This is despite the fact that qualified auctioneers now hold degrees. There is a sense of frustration with the nominating process and it is, to a degree, a farce. It certainly needs to be revised. It should either be made totally political or the electoral panel should be revised in some way in order that it is not politicians who elect the Seanad and a truly vocational panel is elected by a vocational electorate.

On the question of two nominations going to the Leader of the Opposition, we do not have a view as to the individuals nominated. We are simply looking for political balance. Often when a Government is elected with an overwhelming majority, the Seanad is then elected and there is total political imbalance. The suggestion is made purely in the interest of political balance. There may also be people of another political hue who may get a nomination from the Leader of the Opposition who would not get a nomination from the Taoiseach.

The Prime Minister of the United Kingdom takes nominations from the Leader of the Opposition for the House of Lords. It is an interesting suggestion.

I have looked carefully at the overall IAVI view of the House and how it works and I find it narrow. I may be missing something which Mr. Cooke or Mr. O'Hogan can outline to me. I understand the logic on the question of university Senators. It is undeniable. I am one of them. I am not nominated by a vocational group. However, the IAVI might look at this from the point of view of political balance. It is currently the only way in which Independents can be elected to the House.

I return to Senator Hayes's first point concerning who should have voting rights. What would the IAVI's preference be in terms of an answer to Senator Hayes's question? Would the institute prefer its members to have voting rights as well as nominating rights or would it prefer to be away from it all? I understand the point that if there is to be university representation all the universities should be contained in one constituency. That point has been made by a number of people.

Mr. Cooke introduced himself and his colleague as representing the property industry. I would have expected him to tell us they represented all the people in the whole process of auctioneering, including the consumer. This issue is very important to us here and I would like their view on it.

We must take a broader view of the Seanad. The issue of Northern Ireland cannot be ignored, and the IAVI has not suggested that it should. The political institutions of the State must move in a particular way to build real bridges in that direction. I would like to hear the witnesses' views on this and on how they think we can be seen to take positive steps on the question of Northern Ireland.

The witnesses have made their position clear on emigrants. They are opposed to them which is clear enough. I would like to hear their views on the Northern Ireland question.

Mr. O’Hogan

If we are to be involved in the process, we would like our members to be able to influence the position, other than by nominating. Our members are frustrated because they really have no role. We have not given much thought to the practicalities and logistics of creating a structure which enables them to vote or influence the voting but we see it as quite problematic. An increasing number of our members are graduates and they have votes in a different forum. In simple terms, we would like to have some influence, not only in the nomination but also in the election.

Mr. Cooke

In recent times Irish political parties and the Irish population have moved on to accepting the reality of the two states on the island of Ireland. If one accepts that reality, one accepts that Northern Ireland can only move ahead at its own pace, that the pace will be set within Northern Ireland, not the United Kingdom or the Republic of Ireland. Our members are not convinced that courting sectors within Northern Ireland is totally productive on an across-the-board basis. As stated in our submission, the nominations have been used by various Taoisigh in recent times and, in the Northern Ireland context, very wisely. They have selected individuals who have been excellent representatives, certainly something that could continue. However, if this House of the Oireachtas is going to be run at my expense as a taxpayer, do I want it to be run in the context of the State that exists or in the context of the State to which we might aspire or for which we might wish? My belief, and I believe that of the majority of our members, would be that it should be run for the State as is. That is the practicality.

The Irish Auctioneers and Valuers Institute does not pull its punches. I admire its openness and frankness in the way it describes the ineffectiveness of both Houses of the Oireachtas in dealing with EU legislation and the lack of consultation between member organisations such as the institute and the Houses. Its submission contained some very stinging criticism in this regard. It has developed the notion that the Seanad could be a bridge between industry groups such as the institute and the Houses on upcoming directives and legislation.

As members of the delegation may be aware, we have established a new EU scrutiny committee, which tries to overcome the democratic deficit. I ask the delegation to expand on how the Seanad could help. It is a small group and its expertise in this area might be limited. How could the Seanad be the bridge referred to in the submission?

I am aware that IAVI members have been elected to the Seanad. I am not sure whether its nominee was elected at the last general election. What kind of contact would the institute have with such a Senator over a four or five year period in channelling through its view as an organisation and determining whether a particular issue was raised in the Seanad and what feedback it received? If the vocational idea has any legs, it has to have a notion that one Senator can at least reflect the views of an organisation and report back on what occurred.

Mr. Cooke

We have not had the privilege of that experience in the past ten years. We have not had a nominee elected - they have been beaten very narrowly. We would not take the view that, if we nominate a Senator, we in any way own the Senator or that he or she is in any beholden to us. We see it simply as our role in the democratic process and one that we value. We are facilitating democracy and that is fine. We do not look for favours back in return and we would not expect them.

As to the role the Seanad could perform regarding the European Union, we accept that this would need fairly reasonable Civil Service backup. I will give an example. The droit de suite or artist’s resale right was introduced in Europe.

Can you explain that?

Mr. Cooke

"Droit de suite” is a French term for the artist’s resale right. An artist producing a work of art has an intellectual ownership of it in perpetuity effectively. We saw this as having a major detrimental impact on the sale of fine art in the European Union as a whole and in Ireland and Britain in particular. We made a fairly cogent submission against this. However, we were the ones who had to find out that was happening and initiate our approach to the Department of Industry, Trade and Commerce, as it then was. We persuaded the Department of our views and it agreed with us. Nevertheless, the matter was being dealt with under a cultural heading and the other Department did not agree and it won out on the day. Ireland went along with the French norm and the United Kingdom fought it tooth and nail.

That is just one example where we were out there spending our money. If one looks at the amount that Irish business spends in trying to keep up to date with what is happening in Europe through all the organisations and the travel to Brussels daily with plane loads going to and from Brussels, the cost is enormous. Some of this can surely be bridged by having a central forum here for even disseminating information and saying: "Look lads, this is coming down the track. Do you think you have an interest in it? Let's come and discuss it and see where we're going." Perhaps we could then influence the policy that the Government would adopt in its stance in Europe.

I can assure Mr. Cooke that is an issue we have discussed regularly. As he is aware, it does not just affect industry - the aeroplanes are full of trade Unionists trying to find out what is happening on directives. There is a huge paper load involved in this. Each of the 11 committees of the Houses deals with European issues and each has a sub-committee dealing with European affairs. There is effectively a truckload of paper that comes to every one of those committees. We share the institute's view and would welcome it thinking further on this and coming back. We might slightly differ in believing nominating bodies are entitled to have their views represented here - and that is not seeking favours. The vocational nature should be reflected in the contributions at all times and should continue.

The institute has not outlined whether it is referring to European issues being brought to its attention or whether there should be a facility allowing it to search and find these issues that are developing. How does the institute select its nominee?

Mr. O’Hogan

I will leave that to Mr. Cooke as I have not been involved in that process and, therefore, cannot tell the committee.

There are no brown paper envelopes.

Mr. O’Hogan

The Senator can take that for granted. I will deal with the first issue. We would like the opportunity to come back or think further and put some propositions to the committee. We can do it in writing and, if necessary, revert to the committee. We would like to do this. We would like to see what would be almost a consultation opportunity. It is not just the information, because frequently we hear that things are coming, but find it difficult to get our views represented and heard. The Senator's comment about entitlement of representation from the nominee is welcome if we could achieve it in effect. If we may, we may revert to the committee with some suggestions for some sort of consultative arrangements, which could be quite informal, when such situations arise and we have a concern. We could perhaps, on a cross-party basis in a semi-formal setting, set out our concerns and what we would like to see.

I would like to comment on picking up issues of interest to the IAVI. In a sense we are the general practitioners and the institute represents the specialists. I am a member of the sub-committee on European affairs which deals with these directives and regulations. We can go to a meeting and face a mountain of literature, with which we have to deal in a speedy fashion, as the sub-committee is a clearing house to send items to other committees for more detailed scrutiny. Unless we are apprised by a Department, sometimes things may slip through the net. The only way to overcome this is to put the onus back on bodies such as the institute to ensure we are made aware of the difficulty such bodies might have.

Mr. O’Hogan

We accept that. It would be nice if it could work the other way, but given the volumes that come through, we accept we have a duty to try to monitor what is going on. Our concern is from the next stage. When we become aware of something we need to try to affect or influence that or raise the issue of concern.

Provided it is known that a Senator or even a Deputy is representing the institute's point of view, nobody has a difficulty.

I would like to pick up on that point. Mr. O'Hogan has painted a vivid picture of what people have to do in going to and fro. However, there should be a more collaborative way of doing business. For us as practitioners legislatively it was useful to hear you put forward your points of view as practitioners within your own profession.

The IFA should run a course for everyone else on how to anticipate EU legislation. It sees things coming from ten miles beyond the horizon in a way that most other organisations do not.

Perhaps in a rural sense, they smell it. How many members does the institute have?

Mr. O’Hogan

There are 1,600 members.

Is there a vetting procedure or does a person simply apply to become an auctioneer and valuer?

Mr. O’Hogan

We have a serious vetting procedure in place and there are examinations people must pass to obtain certain qualifications. People must be proposed and considered by council before they are elected as members. The process is quite detailed.

Mr. Cooke

However, it is by no means a closed shop.

We appreciate very much the impressive changes which have taken place in the profession in terms of course content, the suitability of candidates and final examinations. They were very much welcomed in the House during discussions.

Mr. Cooke

We greatly welcomed the outcome of that debate. We have been pressing, believe it or not, for an overview of our profession for two to three decades. It took a certain Senator who might not agree with much of what we say to get that through and we owe him a debt of gratitude.

We are useful then.

Mr. Cooke

Having said that, nothing has happened since.

A suggestion we made to the joint committee which was looking at the issue of private property rights touches on the Euroepan Union. While in property terms Government and officialdom tend to look at property from a purely construction point of view, in terms of what can be built under the national development plan and how many houses can be got, 95% of our houses exist this year which means only 5% will be built new. That is something which must be borne in mind. If we could improve the efficiency with which we use that 95% by 5%, it would be the equivalent of building a whole year's supply of new housing. That is not helped by the taxation system, but that is another issue. There is no forum for discussion between the broader property industry and our legislators in the Houses of the Oireachtas. Such a forum is badly needed. There is far more to property than construction and it is time its importance in terms of property transactions, etc., to our economy was recognised. We need only look at the coverage house prices receive to realise it is a fundamental issue of extreme importance to our economy. We must get it right. It has been very obvious that between the last Government and this we have got housing policy wrong more often than we have got it right. That is the result of a lack of proper consultation. The only consultation which took place concerned the first Bacon report. Dr. Bacon did as much as could be done at that point in time but there was no effective consultation after that. What happened was counterproductive, particularly regarding tenants and rents. We warned of that the day the changes in question took place, but it took two years for the about turn to occur.

There is a dire need for legislators to be educated in specialist areas and listen to those at the coalface who know how markets operate. The sub-committee should not take offence as I mean that in the best possible sense. A simple example is the current rubbish put about that house prices are dear because land is dear. Were Members to ask their own valuation experts in the Valuation Office, they would be told the opposite is the case. Land is dear because houses will sell for a certain price. Nothing one does in the chain will affect this.

I thank the delegates. They have been most graphic and helpful to us in terms of ongoing talks about our work. We will pass on the comment in respect of the need for consultation to the relevant joint committee of the Oireachtas. It would serve their purposes very well also. I thank Mr. Cooke and Mr. O'Hogan for coming to the House to represent their 1,600 members and the precise, informative manner in which they have engaged in dialogue with the sub-committee. There is no doubt that we will reflect on what has been said to us when we are putting together our report.

Mr. O’Hogan

Thank you, Chairman.

Mr. Cooke

Thank you.

The witnesses withdrew.

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