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COMMITTEE ON PROCEDURE AND PRIVILEGES (Sub-Committee on Seanad Reform) debate -
Wednesday, 17 Sep 2003

Vol. 1 No. 2

Presentation by the Association of Municipal Authorities of Ireland.

Witnesses: Councillors Mark Dalton, Patricia McCarthy and Denis Landy.

I thank the delegates for attending and their submission which all members of the sub-committee have read thoroughly. I introduce the members of the sub-committee as they are seated. They are Senators Dardis, Brian Hayes, Ryan and O'Toole. As we have read the submission, the delegation may wish to present a synopsis after which there will be questions and answers. While members of the sub-committee have full privilege, witnesses appearing before it have qualified privilege. The delegates will be used to this practice in their public lives. During the session, questions will be put mainly by Senators Dardis and Ryan, though any other member may speak. I hope all delegates will engage in a free and open to and fro.

Mr. Dalton

I am a councillor on Athy Town Council. With me are Councillor Patricia McCarthy of Shannon Town Council and Councillor Denis Landy of Carrick-on-Suir Town Council. I am the new president of the association and my colleagues are my immediate predecessors in the post. We are here to make the presentation we have submitted on Seanad reform and there are a number of key issues we wish to raise. The first relates to the composition of the House.

The policy of our association for many years has been that all elected members should have a vote in Seanad elections. It is also our policy that the nominating status quo be restored to two. We currently nominate one member, but in the past we were allowed to nominate two to contest the election. It is also the policy of the AMAI that provision be made to provide Seanad representation for city and town councillors. As the sub-committee will be aware, currently only city borough corporations have this entitlement, but our constituted members seek this franchise also. The current ratio of members elected by public representatives should be maintained in the event of any increase or reduction in the number of Seanad Members at the end of the sub-committee’s deliberations. The current position is that only city and county councillors have a vote on the five panels while all other elected town councillors are excluded from the process.

We are asking that the franchise in respect of university representation be extended to all graduates and that there should be no distinctions between universities. We ask that the Taoiseach's nominees be representative of all sectors of society and inclusive of a cross section of the populace. The nominees should not be party political and should include representation from Northern Ireland and the Irish diaspora. The most appropriate basis for providing representation to persons from Northern Ireland is through the Northern Ireland Assembly as the elected body representing all the people of Northern Ireland. Some way should be found to allow the Assembly to be a nominating body and the representatives chosen should be placed among the Taoiseach's nominees.

There is a need for a forum wherein the voices of the Irish diaspora would be heard. We realise it will be very difficult to organise such a forum on a worldwide basis, but have a number of proposals which would be of help in this regard. Any Senators elected by the forum should be placed among the Taoiseach's nominees. The paper outlines a proposal to form a worldwide nominating body made up of members of the Irish diaspora to nominate a Member of the Seanad.

As regards the functions of Seanad Éireann, the House is an ideal forum for the examination, prior to the legal draughtspersons commencing their work, of Government and Members' proposals in respect of legislation. Such a system would allow the implications of particular legislation or proposals to be teased out prior to them appearing in formal format.

The contribution the Seanad could make in terms of enhanced parliamentary accountability and scrutiny is very important. The House should be a forum for the review of public policy and have a monitoring and examining role in respect of public policy and how it is applied regarding local government. A system should be developed to allow the AMAI, as one of the representative organisations of local government, particularly city and town councils, to have an input into the preparation of legislation which will affect our constituted members, the city and town councils. We ask for access to be provided to our association to enable us to attend debates and have an input into sessions in which policies affecting city and town councils are developed.

One of the critical roles Seanad Éireann should have is in the area of European Union affairs. The Seanad is an ideal forum for discussing EU legislation and directives and informing the public on their implications. It should also have a monitoring role in tracking how Government is implementing such legislation and directives. In our key area of interest, local government, a mechanism should be developed to allow the AMAI to represent city and town councils and report on legislation and directives from the European Union which directly affect us and our members. I thank Senators for their time and look forward to answering their questions.

I thank Mr. Dalton and ask Senator Dardis to start the questioning.

I welcome the councillors to the Seanad, particularly Councillor Dalton who is from the same part of the country as me.

As this is a broad church, the other councillors are also welcome.

Senator O'Toole always mentions those who come from Dingle.

And north Dublin.

All the councillors are welcome. I compliment them on the paper they have submitted which offers considerable room for thought and action. It identifies various people who should be included as nominees of the Taoiseach. The primary function of the Taoiseach's nominees is to ensure the Government has a majority in the Upper House in order to avoid legislative gridlock. How does one overcome the difficulty arising from the proposal with regard to the formation of the Government?

The AMAI's proposal on how to incorporate people from Northern Ireland, namely, through the nomination of the Assembly, is novel. If one assumes that the Unionists may not want to participate in such a process, should all those who go forward be drawn from the Nationalist portion of the Assembly?

With regard to university representation and the extension of the franchise to all graduates, would the AMAI extend the franchise beyond graduates? In other words, would anyone who has obtained a third level qualification be eligible to vote or only those who hold degrees? If the answer is the former, would the AMAI go further and argue that undergraduates should also have the right to vote in Seanad elections? Those are my opening points but we can explore a number of other issues in greater detail later.

I thank Senators for seeing us. As regards the implications for the formation of Government of our proposals on the Taoiseach's nominees, as is stated throughout our paper, we are concerned about the politicisation of the Seanad and its role. We are mindful that the Taoiseach's nominees are critical in ensuring the Government is able to get its business through the Houses and would accept the nominees of the Taoiseach taking the side of the Government in certain circumstances.

As regards the Northern Assembly, we have made progress and cannot look back, nor can we consider difficulties which may arise in the future. We hope the current spirit of co-operation will continue, there will be a working Northern Assembly and the current difficulties will be overcome. If the Unionist community initially chose not to accept the place on offer to it, we hope it would eventually take it up. A locum could be appointed until such time as the circumstances were right for the Northern brethren to come on board and feel secure being part of the Seanad.

As regards graduates, we accept that the various scales of graduate create a complication. To obtain a third level qualification of any description is, however, an achievement in this society and should be recognised. Can one really distinguish between different shades of graduate on the basis that some graduates decide to enter the workforce having attained a degree instead of going on to complete a doctorate or further study?

There are bodies which formally confer degrees and people who get third level qualifications which are not degrees. Is the AMAI in favour of extending the franchise to everyone with a third level qualification?

If one has gone to the trouble of completing third level education and obtained a qualification, one should be considered equal to everyone else. Some should not be treated as more equal than others.

In terms of the membership of the AMAI, what size would the electorate be if one were to include all town councillors? If one is a member of a town council and a county council, would one have two votes or one?

Mr. Landy will answer that.

Mr. Dalton

Prior to the ending of the dual mandate, many Deputies and Senators were also county councillors and had only one vote in Seanad elections. We envisage the same position would apply with regard to our proposal. Currently, the AMAI has more than 800 members, including county councillors. I do not have an exact figure regarding the additional numbers.

It would supplement the electorate by some 300 or 400.

Mr. Dalton

Yes, but all of them would be democratically elected. Members of some town councils, for instance, Bray, Dundalk and Tralee, probably have a bigger electorate than members of some county councils.

The proposal would be fine until one had to go canvassing.

I welcome my party colleague, Denis Landy, and Mark Dalton who is from the same parish as me.

Sorry, Councillor McCarthy.

Ms McCarthy must feel very left out.

I am sorry, I could not find a connection.

She is an Independent as was Senator Ryan once.

It is very early in the morning for this frivolity.

I will consider myself reprimanded. As practising politicians, how do the AMAI representatives envisage the Taoiseach being able to avoid making party political nominees in practical political terms? Would he have to nominate only those who were not members of political parties? Would Taoiseach's nominees be precluded from taking the party whip in the Seanad? If enforced, the AMAI proposal would amount to serious interference in people's constitutional rights. I wish various Taoisigh, including some whom I would have supported or to whom I would have been well disposed, had been more imaginative when appointing Senators. Four Progressive Democrats is a little hard to take. How could the AMAI proposal in this regard be formalised?

I am surprised by the request to provide the AMAI with access to the Seanad to enable it to attend debates and have an input into sessions. Members of the AMAI have an unqualified right to attend debates. Do the witnesses have something else in mind?

As regards input, from listening to my colleagues elected on the panels, I know they jump when local representatives want them to jump. They take very seriously the fact that they are elected by local representatives. Even for reasons of privilege alone, but also for other reasons, we could not allow members of the AMAI to participate in debates. We would have to blur the distinction between Senators and members of local authorities. How could the input by the AMAI be institutionalised? It is a good idea to have a formal local government input into any legislation that affects local government.

Mr. Landy

I thank Senator Ryan for the nice connectivity until the Chairman cut him off.

She never cuts me off.

Mr. Landy

He used the word "imaginative". Strange as it might seem to him coming from where he does, I am sure that the Taoiseach of the day could find people who would have an input coming from sporting, economic or social areas of society that would be like-minded to himself or herself. That would get over the difficulty to which Senator Ryan refers. It would not be beyond the bounds of possibility but would open up the Taoiseach's nominees to the concept of appointments other than purely political ones. Bringing people from all walks of life into the Seanad would introduce a sense of inclusivity, which is what we have in mind.

Those such as Senator Brian Hayes who have been on the county council circuit seeking votes for the Seanad will be well aware of how the system operates. Any Senator worth his or her salt who attends an organisation's conference can be guaranteed to know every county councillor there. He or she will actually pass the town councillors by as if they did not exist.

A single transferable vote.

Mr. Landy

We even witnessed this since we came to Dublin this morning. That is a fact of life. Town councillors feel like second-class citizens in the political scene. Due to the fact that we do not have a vote we are not relevant to Senators who have to be elected through the county council process.

To answer the question in regard to input and attendances, first, there needs to be a recognition that there are some town councillors who have more work than county councillors if one looks at population trends, particularly in Dublin city, where I accept that they have a vote. Let us take the example of a town councillor in Clonmel compared to a county councillor sitting in Leitrim.

It is a big town.

It is a large urban area.

I was not arguing with Mr. Landy on that point.

Mr. Landy

I want to make the point because it is lost in this debate. Let us be honest about it, there is a form of apartheid.

Effectively, Mr. Landy is saying there is a disconnection between people in municipal councils and the Oireachtas.

Mr. Landy

There is no doubt about that.

It is a valid point.

Mr. Landy

I am sure my colleagues would agree. He who pays the piper calls the tune.

Those who go on that circuit only see single transferable votes.

From all parties.

To take up the point raised by Senators Ryan and O'Toole, is Mr. Landy suggesting that all municipal authorities be considered equal, regardless of size or does he refer to the members of large urban areas having a vote? We are all aware of the great differences in town size. I will not call out the names of small towns because then they will give out about us on the radio. However, there are small towns which have town councillors and then there are large towns such as those mentioned by Mr. Landy such as Dundalk, Athlone or Ennis which represent large urban areas. Does Mr. Landy want those members to be treated in the same way?

Mr. Landy

We represent all town councils, from Ballybay and Lismore to Dundalk and Sligo.

I am aware that Mr. Landy represents them.

Mr. Landy

They are treated the same in our organisation and we include all town councils as part of the submission.

We know Mr. Landy has to say that, but in practical terms if there was to be a change, where should the bar be put?

Is there a population bar in representational terms?

Mr. Landy

Our position, as per the submission, is that all town councillors should be included.

Mr. Dalton

We make the point regarding the current situation vis-à-vis county councillors, that there are councils such as Leitrim, Longford and others with a much smaller electoral base than Dublin City Council, Cork City Council or various others.

I understand that.

Mr. Dalton

There is already a discrepancy in the system between the various councils.

Mr. Landy

The next question that Senator Ryan asked concerned inputs in debates and attendances. We were honoured to be asked to make a submission to this forum. We took it seriously and, while we say it ourselves, put together an imaginative submission which included some things which might not have occurred to the committee members. We are an active and vibrant organisation. In the event of legislation coming before the House that would be relevant to town councils or the local authority system, we seek the opportunity to make a submission at an early stage. We would like to be in a position to attend the debates and make further submissions on the matter. We also wish to be able to tease out the various issues in a committee format such as this one. As we discussed yesterday, in recent years various measures have gone through both Houses that are unworkable. Ms McCarthy gave as an example the removal of caravans off the side of the road. As practising town and county councillors, we could have told both Houses of the Oireachtas that that was unworkable.

As a nation, we have bought into the notion of subsidiarity and if we are serious about practising it, the legislation that emanates from the Oireachtas must reflect this. We see a major input for our association in terms of this aspect of any legislation that would be passed.

In summary, we recommend that submissions be made on a regular basis which would provide an opportunity to meet Oireachtas committees such as this in respect of forthcoming legislation. An organised attendance at debates is also advocated. I accept that on an ad hoc basis, any of us can get a pass to attend a specific debate but that is not what we are talking about.

Mr. Landy clearly articulated a sense of frustration which I hear from many town councillors in my party in regard to the notion of being, in effect, a second-class councillor. Does that follow through in respect of discussions he might have with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government or at the level of the Oireachtas committee which deals with this area? Is there a problem gaining right of audience on a regular basis to contribute to legislative proposals that affect his members. I am aware that the General Council of County Councils is very well organised. It has channels of communication to the Department and to the committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas.

It does. We are asked for our ideas and opinions and we have regular meetings with the Department but unfortunately for us there is a growing sense of frustration. By the time we get involved, the decision has already been made. Our involvement appears to be a cosmetic exercise in real terms.

It sounds like the Seanad. We can share that frustration.

We share it too.

We are all talking about the same thing. We are getting more and more EU directives on local government and asked to implement them on the ground. It is a fait accompli by the time it gets to us which would not be the case if we had input. We have never been invited by any committee other than this one to make a presentation.

That is amazing.

That is amazing.

Yes. One of the problems we have is trying to communicate our views in regard to city and town councils. The reason the county councils are being so well attended to is that they have a vote in the Seanad. If we had the same vote, it would improve our status. Like Mr. Landy, I am a dual member. Therefore, I have a different status. I can identify the people who recognise me as being different. There are some people who do not recognise me on occasion as being a member of a county council but when they realise that I am a county councillor they come back and say, "Hi Patricia, glad to meet you. You are looking well," and whatever else you will have yourself.

How many dual members are there?

We probably have 200 or 300 in our association.

Dual members. How many members are there in total?

We have about 800.

Mr. Dalton

We have over 80 constituent councils.

I am well aware of that. We have a town council and the county council in Athlone. I was a member of both for many years, as were most of the other members. In a large town, the town council means more than the bailiwick of the county council to which a member has also been elected.

I fully accept the point that one is a councillor whether one is elected in a small or large town. I do not see a distinction once one is elected. I do not think that bar can be set; it is either all in or all out.

The delegates spoke about the representation of emigrants and this has been a thread in many of the submissions we have received. There is a general desire to have emigrants represented. The association has made a novel proposal regarding a worldwide organisation which would become a nominating body. Has the association thought about how that would be constituted and would present nominees?

We have given it some thought. As we stated in our submission, an umbrella body would have to be established. There are sufficient organisations within the diaspora and we would see them coming together and trying to arrange a means of representation. It could be done on a country basis that affiliates to a central point, perhaps based in Dublin or elsewhere. There have been debates at our annual conferences regarding emigrants and the need to have contact with them and putting the relationship on a firm footing. This was the only way we could see a possibility of working this out.

It would raise all sorts of difficulties if we were to go into an area that dealt with people who left the country five, ten or 20 years ago or who may be first, second or third generation emigrants. We felt the existing organisations could form an umbrella group and this group could arrange a voting system to provide a nominee and then submit the name.

Would The Taoiseach be bound by that nomination?

Mr. Landy

The onus would be on the individual to affiliate. If they were serious about having a vote and an input into Irish democracy, they would, for want of a better term, take out membership.

I thank the association for meeting with us; we are delighted that it took up our invitation. It has been enormously practical. When we come to our final review, there is no doubt that we will reflect on what the association has told us this morning.

The witnesses withdrew.

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