COMMITTEE ON PROCEDURE AND PRIVILEGES (Sub-Committee on Seanad Reform) debate -
Thursday, 18 Sep 2003

Vol. 1 No. 3

Presentation by the Irish Traveller Movement and Pavee Point Travellers’ Centre.

Witnesses: Mr. David Joyce and Ms Rosaleen McDonagh.

Senator Dardis

I welcome Mr. Joyce and Ms McDonagh for attending this meeting on behalf of the Irish Traveller Movement and Pavee Point. I thank them for facilitating the sub-committee by making a joint presentation, which we appreciate. I apologise on behalf of Senator O'Rourke, Chairman of the sub-committee and Leader of the Seanad. Unfortunately, she cannot be here this afternoon as she has been called away. She wants the delegations to know that she sends her apologies. We have allocated about 25 minutes. Mr. Joyce and Ms McDonagh can take it that their submissions have been read. I invite our guests to make some introductory remarks before Senators O'Toole, Brian Hayes, Ryan and I ask some questions.

While members of the sub-committee have unqualified privilege, witnesses have what is known as qualified privilege. If they defame anybody, they are open to being sued.

Senator Ryan

We can defame them.

Mr. Joyce

I am listed to make my presentation before Ms McDonagh but will allow her to go first.

Ms McDonagh

I thank the sub-committee for the opportunity to make this oral presentation. I would like to apologise for the fact that my back is to members of the sub-committee.

Senator Dardis

That is no problem. I do it all the time.

Ms McDonagh

I work for Pavee Point, a human rights organisation for Travellers, and I am co-manager of the domestic violence programme for Travellers throughout the country on a local and regional level. Being in a privileged position as a graduate of Trinity I ran for election last summer. Although it was a privilege, it was not one I could share with my people, other Travellers. Although I had a good deal of support, they were not able to vote for me. That was the downside. The most important part of the campaign was not the result, although I did well, but the symbolic gesture showing how well it was received by the disabled in terms of voting for Travellers and having Travellers represented in the political system.

I ran for a number of reasons. The day before I decided to run, the trespass Bill was enacted. That was the final straw in terms of Travellers' morale, not just nomadism but mobility by way of involvement in society. We suddenly realised that not only had we been shafted in terms of Government policies but also we no longer had a voice. We believe that if there had been Travellers within the political system at that time that legislation would not have been enacted. They would have given empirical knowledge concerning accommodation. What I am saying is that this symbolic gesture in my running was a result of years of isolation from the political system.

We looked at other countries such as Czechoslovakia and Hungary where there were allocations for ethnic minority groups such as Roma and realised that in Ireland we were now talking about a multicultural society which choses to ignore its own indigenous national ethnic group. Before handing over to Mr. Joyce, perhaps he would read Article 15 of the UN convention.

Mr. Joyce

Article 15 of the framework convention provides that parliaments shall create the conditions necessary for the effective participation of persons belonging to national minorities in cultural, social and economic life and in public affairs and, in particular, those affecting them.

Senator O’Toole

We have that article. It was contained in the submission to us.

Ms McDonagh

Under the Good Friday Agreement there are obligations in regard to human rights. Now would be a good time to start looking at indigenous accommodation in terms of real human rights. When Ireland is hosting the Presidency next year, that will be a good opportunity to use it to say, "We are inclusive, we acknowledge our unique position as a nation that has its own indigenous ethnic group."

Senator Dardis

Before moving on to questions, I invite Mr. Joyce to make his presentation.

Mr. Joyce

Like Ms Donagh I thank the sub-committee, on behalf of the Irish Traveller Movement, for inviting us to appear before it to elaborate on our submission. In staying within the terms of reference of the sub-committee's work and in looking at the issue of representation in the Seanad as well as some of the areas of work that can be taken on, like Pavee Point, our main recommendation relating to participation in the Seanad is that, by right, Travellers would be part of an electoral college to the Seanad.

By way of background, the Irish Traveller Movement is a national umbrella organisation of Traveller groups and local committees. Currently, there are 75 member organisations. As an organisation, we have been active over the past ten or 12 years in seeking to raise the voice of Travellers at many levels. In the mainstream political level we do not have representation in either House of the Oireachtas or at local authority level. However, we have played a role in the political process through active lobbying and campaigning with various Members of the Houses, as well as with various Departments which have responsibility for issues affecting Travellers. Through our work in recent years, in common with that done by Pavee Point, we have tried to raise awareness among Travellers of the political system and to use it as a lobbying and campaign organisation to promote various issues through the political process. We have done that because we do not have representation.

Given the numbers of Travellers, it is unlikely that they will create a constituency that will have direct representation in the Dáil. It is only in recent years that they have made any progress at local level. There are only three areas where they have been directly elected to local authorities. There is a need for them to be given a voice, through this Chamber, in society and particularly the political process. We recommend that the constituencies and electoral colleges that comprise the Seanad be looked at.

In regard to Seanad representation, the 1937 Constitution envisaged representation from various sectors of society. The idea of vocational representation within the Seanad is clear and the various interests in society are named. It was indicative of Travellers at the time and is indicative of their situation now, that the most visible minority - perhaps not numerically - was and still is excluded from the political system. That has had an impact on their position during the past 66 years. The exclusion has impacted in the sense that they are seen as outside the political system and have no role to play within the broader society in regard to policy development or whatever. That was not true at that time and it certainly is not true in respect of their situation today but it is still reflected in their position.

In terms of the area of work, if the compositions are not being changed, there will be an absence of a broader representational role for the Seanad in terms of society. I listened to the Chairman on the radio during the week highlighting the work of this committee and talking about what is happening. I am not coming to the House with cynical views of the Seanad. As the Chairman said, there is a role for the Seanad as a Chamber that can be more reflective of legislation going through the Dáil in terms of being less party political and reactive. It can examine legislation in a more in-depth and objective way and we believe this aspect should be taken seriously by its Members. Unfortunately, there is a perception that that does not happen and that the Seanad has become party political, but we see the potential for ensuring that sectoral interests, particularly marginalised communities, have some champions in the Seanad or the Dáil.

When one reads the Dáil and Seanad debates from the foundation of the State and the enactment of the Constitution, one can see there have been very few champions for Travellers either in the Dáil or the Seanad. If there is a balance in that regard, it is probably in favour of the Seanad. Historically, a greater number of people in this Chamber than in the Dáil have been prepared to support Travellers and openly address some of the prejudices towards them in society. I am not cynical about what people do in the Seanad. I see the potential of this Chamber and respect the work it has done.

We are making two recommendations. The first is that there should be a serious examination of the representation and the inclusion of Travellers in the Seanad by right through an electoral college. The second recommendation is that issues affecting Travellers in terms of racism and social policy should play a key role in the deliberations of the Seanad. The Members of the Seanad should be more active and take a more reflective approach to legislation that will have an impact on Travellers.

Senator O’Toole

I thank Ms McDonagh and Mr. Joyce for outlining their position. I agree with the points they made about the difficulties they have experienced. Until Mr. Joyce spoke, I would have considered myself to be a champion of Traveller issues since I was elected to this House 17 years ago. There are many factual errors in his presentation, although I agree with his proposal. I cannot remember the detail but he mentioned three items of legislation as an example. I remember the wandering horses Bill, introduced at the time by the then Minister of State, DeputyDeenihan, but I cannot remember the debate on it. I do remember the debate on the housing Bill 2002 and the decision to take the discrimination issue surrounding Travellers into the courts. I can assure Mr. Joyce - I am amazed he does not know this - that there was a major argument in this House about that matter.

I tabled amendments on one if not both Bills, although I do not wish to take any credit for it because there was a good deal of debate on them but whether it went right or wrong, the arguments were put, not just by me. I remember having a major argument with the Minister at the time, and I am not trying to single myself out for praise. I am simply saying there is always somebody to express that view and I would be amazed if what Mr. Joyce said was the case. He has outlined the position as he sees it, and I would not argue with him, but that means there is a problem in terms of bridging the gap in order that we all have connections with each other and know what are the points of view. I can assure him that in regard to two of the three issues he mentioned, there was a major debate and perhaps a vote on them in this House. There was particularly strong support on the housing issue in that many people argued a different viewpoint. I say that to raise an issue that is hugely important to us here.

Mr. Joyce has brought forward a proposal based on Article 19 of the Constitution and the issue he raised about the need for ethnic groups to be represented. That is a valid point. He also made a cogent case that there should be a place either through the nomination or other system for representation. The representatives will appreciate, however, that one of the issues we have to deal with is that it will be impossible for every group which wishes to have representation to have a representative in the Seanad. There are only 60 Members and regardless of what way we do it, some of those will be politically elected, etc. Obviously, it will happen for some groups and we have to take on board the case Mr. Joyce made in terms of nomination and trying to push that forward.

We accept the point about monitoring the programme against racism and other such issues but are there ways in which there could be clear communication between Senators and representatives in terms of how we do our business?

Ms McDonagh

I acknowledge what Senator O'Toole said about champions in debates, but the reality is that all the Members are settled people and have had the privileges of everything that goes with being settled - education, status, choice and opportunity. They need to admit this. Regardless of whether they are champions in debates, the position is unknown to them unless they live next door to a Traveller site. We are outside the political system.

In terms of the make-up of the Seanad, it needs alternative voices representing the oppressed. In the debates on Traveller accommodation, the problem of rubbish and whatever else, it would be insightful to have one or more Travellers involved who would have empirical knowledge about what goes on in their lives.

Senator O’Toole

I could not argue with that.

Mr. Joyce

To respond to Senator O'Toole's point about Traveller champions, I am not taking away from the work he has done——

Senator O’Toole

Not just me.

Mr. Joyce

I acknowledge the work of other Senators also but the point I am making concerns the way Travellers have been represented both in this Chamber and the Dáil. I might sound like a sad person but I was interested in reading some of the Dáil debates - there is a very goodwebsite - and the context in which they occurred in the two Chambers over the years. I found that it is only in the past ten or 15 years that people like Senator O'Toole and other individuals, particularly in this Chamber, have been outspoken on the issue of Travellers.

Senator O’Toole

I accept that.

Mr. Joyce

Historically, there are few one could name from either this Chamber or the Dáil who stuck their necks out and made a case on behalf of Travellers. I am not taking away from what Senator O'Toole said. I am just saying that in terms of Travellers being represented in the political process and society, that has only happened in recent times. That has come about partly because individuals in the Seanad have an interest and partly because they meet with people like ourselves outside the Chamber, discuss some of these issues and take them on board. They may disagree with some of them but at least they hear another side. I am simply making the point that it is more likely to happen here than in the Dáil.

Senator O’Toole

I am aware that the nomadic existence of some Travellers makes it impossible for them to vote. I remember discussing this issue some 15 years ago with members of the Traveller movement and I wonder what is the current position. In terms of participation in democracy, what percentage of Travellers would vote?

Ms McDonagh

Before I answer that question, I want to make two points. First, we must grow up as a nation and stop talking about champions and causes. That is not how a political system should work. Second, if Travellers' ethnicity was recognised, our full human rights would be recognisable in law and we would not need individual champions. We are not children.

On the question of what percentage of Travellers vote, I do not know. When some Deputies use an anti-Traveller campaign to get elected, there is no policy or no party Whip who says, "Don't do that." Why would I, as a Traveller, want to participate in a system that allows an anti-racism agenda to be carried out in a very transparent way? Why would I bother to vote?

Senator B. Hayes

I wish to ask one further question and make an observation. I recently came off South Dublin County Council, of which I was a member for the past seven years. I would say Mr. Joyce would be aware to a greater extent of the work that has gone on in south Dublin.

Ms McDonagh

I would also be aware of it.

Senator B. Hayes

Yes; I apologise, I just have not met Ms McDonagh before. One of the benefits of having been a member of a local authority and also a Member of the Oireachtas for that period, having served previously in the Dáil and subsequently in this Chamber, was that I was confronted with making decisions on programmes. It is easy to talk here about what needs to be done but much more difficult for people to do it on the ground because one must confront one's electorate. Ms McDonagh is right in saying that unfortunately some of our colleagues have used an anti-Traveller platform to garner votes, which is despicable, although it happens in all parties. My understanding of Traveller issues was greatly helped by the fact that I was a member of a local authority, but that is no longer the case. Given that many issues in terms of the housing programme, in particular, must be dealt with by good honest local councillors making hard decisions, confronting the settled community and talking about how it is proposed to resettle people, how do we possibly do that when that link in a sense has now been removed from the Oireachtas? This is an important point, at least for me.

What difference did the election of the new mayor of Tuam, a Traveller, mean to the Travelling community? I never met him but listened to him recently on radio and as a member of the settled community, I found it a fantastic experience because, in a sense, official Ireland has recognised that a group of people whose members we have excluded for many years has been accepted as part and parcel of the political establishment.

I believe the Taoiseach should use one of his nominations to appoint a Traveller. He would have to appoint the nominee but the Travelling community could determine who that should be. Given the numbers involved, I consider that would be the only way of doing it. Given the difference the mayor of Tuam has made in terms of public perception in recent weeks, one could imagine the difference that could be made if a member of the Travelling community was appointed to the Seanad.

Ms McDonagh

Perhaps Mr. Joyce will answer the question on accommodation and I will answer the question about the appointment of the mayor.

Mr. Joyce

I was going to answer both, but Ms McDonagh can answer one of questions.

In terms of the accommodation issue, the fact that legislation introduced a number of years ago obliged local authorities to create a statutory consultation process for Travellers at a local level highlighted that there was a large number of Travellers who were prepared to engage at local level with local authorities, who were keen to participate on local consultation committees and were prepared to take on members of local authorities at a face to face level. That we have been prepared through discussions, which were heated at times and not so pleasant, to engage in that process shows that there are Travellers interested in the process, interested in local government, who are part of local communities, but for a long time have felt excluded by the local government system in place to represent the community. The fact that some Travellers are on a consultative committee shows that they are prepared to engage with the local authorities and work at that level. There are many problems concerning accommodation programmes, which have still not been properly delivered. Having a voice in a Chamber such as this would remind people that is not happening.

On Travellers' involvement in the political system, I would not envisage there being Traveller representation in the Seanad merely for the sake of having a Traveller representative to speak solely on Traveller issues and shut up on every other issue. I envisage Travellers participating in the political process in their own right. They have comments to make on other aspects of Irish life and society and could add their voices to such issues in this Chamber. I am not here to advocate a Traveller representative who would speak only on Traveller interests. Travellers have a contribution to make and strong feelings on other aspects of Irish life that are not reflected and about which we are not asked. That is an area that could be represented in this Chamber.

The election of Martin Ward as mayor of Tuam shows that Travellers are willing and want to participate in politics and that they have a stake in the development of society. The fact that he could do this in Tuam partly answers the earlier question as to how many Travellers vote. There is a large population of Travellers in Tuam, although his support did not come from only Travellers - it was broader than this.

The media got it wrong in highlighting Martin Ward as being the first Traveller to be elected a lord mayor; he is the second Traveller to be elected lord mayor of a local authority. A Traveller was elected lord mayor of Granard UDC. Those elections show that Travellers are interested in getting involved in politics; they have given Travellers an interest which has been useful.

Ms McDonagh

I feel enormous pride about this. I do not mean to be controversial or disrespectful to the House or the Taoiseach but it would be dangerous to have a Taoiseach's nominee to deal with Traveller issues. More than one Traveller representative is required. Traveller politics are not about one individual; the representation of a few people with a mandate to deal with those issues is required. Can Members imagine what it would be like to have one person representing Travellers? Members need only think of their own communities. I urge them not to focus on the idea of such a nomination because we need broader representation.

Mr. Joyce

Our presentation is based on the reality that Travellers should be part of one of the electoral panels to which I do not believe there is a constitutional obstacle. Travellers could be represented on two panels, either on the cultural panel or the services panel. There would be two advantages to be gained from their inclusion on one of the panels. If Travellers were directly elected to the Seanad, that would enable them to participate in the process. Such a process would not only involve a Traveller representative in the Seanad but the process of the election would be advantageous for Travellers.

The criticism constantly directed at the Seanad concerns how the elections take place. The fact that it is such a closed electoral pool leads to many of the criticisms. We would argue that the electoral pool should be expanded. Obviously, a constituency within that pool which involved Travellers would have the double advantage of not only getting their representative elected to the House but also enabling them to participate in the process.

Senator Dardis

Is the movement a registered nominating body?

Mr. Joyce

It is not.

Senator Dardis

It could be. You might contact the Clerk of the Seanad about it on your way from this meeting.

Senator Ryan

Many politicians would be interested in Travellers then.

Mr. Joyce

We did not realise it was that easy.

Senator Dardis

Thank you both. My experience in Kildare County Council reflects that of Senator Hayes. I was glad to hear your comments on the participative aspect.

The witnesses withdrew.