I was relieved to hear Dr. Cosgrave say he would not be against the institutes because the submission is quite emphatic that it should be the seven statutory universities. I take the issue of graduates as read, although I had intended to ask a number of questions.
I would like to raise an issue in the context of the Bologna process because an attempt at harmonisation is being made and the outcome of that attempt, as I understand it, may be that all third level courses which involve a minimum of three years post-second level schooling will be regarded as basic bachelor degrees. As an engineer, my vanity is endless and I fully accept the wonderful training in social responsibility that engineers and doctors get but I was not aware that somebody who did a BSc or indeed a BA - I respect all graduates of all third level institutions - received an extra education over one of my students in CIT who spends three years studying for a diploma in chemical technology. I have always been unhappy about the concept of diplomas anyway because it is a loose term and a degree is a much more well-defined term. Diplomas are offered in many subjects with varying degrees of validity and it is one of the reasons many of the graduates of the institutes of technology are unhappy with the concept of a diploma, not because they are unhappy with their education but because in the real world people who hear the word "diploma" do not know what it means.
My understanding of the process of integrating Bologna - it is being used by various interest groups to justify many issues that are not in the Bologna declaration, which is a necessary process - is that three years of post-leaving certificate third level full-time study will be regarded, by and large, as producing a qualification which will be a basic bachelor's degree. If that is the case, the logic would be to recognise the people who did those courses before they were called degrees. The idea that people who did the diploma in architecture, for instance, in Bolton Street College of Technology 25 years ago and are now fully recognised professional architects are in any way different from the architectural graduates of, say, University College Dublin appears to be intellectually impossible to contemplate.
The only justification for the anomaly that is the university seats is the fact that they have served a useful purpose and have worked. Senator O'Toole and I feel strongly about this. It is rarely I claim to be able to speak for Senator O'Toole but on this issue, I do. I would be concerned that the language used here suggests a kind of elitism on the part of universities that we could do without.
