The delegation is welcome to the Seanad Chamber. I thank its members for making the submission and coming to talk to us about it. We are an all-party committee and our members are Senators Dardis, Brian Hayes, Ryan and O'Toole. We have full privilege in the Chamber but the delegation will have only qualified privilege. However, I know there will not be any rat-a-tat between us. We have a little less than 20 minutes. We have read the submission, but perhaps the delegation may wish to make a synopsis. Our two main questioners will be Senators Brian Hayes and O'Toole, although I am sure the rest of us, like you, will have a say within the time constraints.
Presentation by Dublin Institute of Technology.
Witnesses: Professor Brian Norton, Dr. Frank McMahon, Dr. Thomas Duff and Ms Melda Slattery.
Professor Norton
As you said, Chairman, you have read our submission. I wish to emphasise some points. The Dublin Institute of Technology has a long history dating back to 1887. In its present guise it is ten years old. It is an organisation of 20,000 students, of whom 10,000 are at degree level. It has 2,000 degree level graduates per annum. Until 1998 those awarded degrees through the Dublin Institute of Technology received, by an arrangement with Trinity College, degrees of the University of Dublin and were electors through the University of Dublin. Since 1998 the Dublin Institute of Technology has awarded its own degrees. Those students are now not electors. There is an anomaly in that we have Dublin Institute of Technology graduates who are both in and out.
We favour a system where all third level qualifications, level 7 and three year degrees, are part of a college which must form part of the election for this body. It is an equitable distribution recognising the diversity of higher education and the fact that a large amount of qualifications are only done within certain institutions. For example, if one wants to study optometry in Ireland, one can only do it in the Dublin of Institute. Those people with degrees could only be represented in this body through that route. We also favour a dual college status, as we have indicated, where Trinity College, DCU and the Dublin Institute of Technology would form one part of the broad framework, while UL, the NUI and the other institutes of technology would form another part.
I thank the delegation.
As regards broadening the franchise, I am sure the delegation has heard that such a view is emerging. We would be more interested in the delegation's views on the more detailed operations of our relationships. Does the delegation see further relationships developing between the Dublin Institute of Technology and ourselves? Are there other views on how the Seanad should have its place in Irish life and how it should relate to the Dublin Institute of Technology? Has the delegation considered any of these issues?
Professor Norton
It is important to remember that the engine for the future of a highly valued, knowledge-based Irish economy is coming through bodies such as the Dublin Institute of Technology. It is important that any representation in this body involves technologists, entrepreneurs, etc., taking a full part in public life and making their views known. That is important in terms of being involved in political life, taking part in policy making and seeing those issues coming forward in terms of course content and links with society. The point we make about the Dublin Institute of Technology is that it is in the centre of Ireland's capital city and is intimately linked with its cultural, economic and political life. This would be a manifestation of that link. I hope it can develop its links through the involvement of current students with current politicians to ensure the fullest engagement with the political process because there is the potential for large parts of society to become decoupled from the political process. There must be engagement between the education and political processes.
As regards how the constituencies are divided up, it is not clear from the delegation's presentation what rationale was used to devise them. Why would there be a divide? What is the thinking behind the divide mentioned, namely, that DCU, Trinity College and the Dublin Institute of Technology would form one part, while the NUI, UL and the other institutes of technology would form another?
Professor Norton
The view was pragmatic. There must be some type of structure which preserves some of the linkages. We still have a number of other linkages between the Dublin Institute of Technology and the University of Dublin. It also makes for a defined constituency both geographically and in terms of interrelationships and links on the ground. There are many collaborative links between the institutions in Dublin. We must look at more collaboration between students and courses in the future. There is a natural synergy between those bodies forming one constituency. The rationale is essentially pragmatic. We would not have a strong preference about the nature of the constituencies and how they are formed.
The synergy between the institutions would have little relevance here, although it may be relevant to the Dublin Institute of Technology. The person elected may be a graduate of DCU but may live in Dingle. That is the reason I asked the question about its significance. I think Professor Norton made the point that it is not——
Dr. Duff
Historically, there have been strong links between the Dublin Institute of Technology, the City of Dublin VEC and the political representatives on the VEC. From the mid-1960s through to the mid-1970s when NIHE in Dublin was set up, it was initially intended that the Dublin Institute of Technology would move there. There are strong close links, especially through the VEC system. Again, there are strong links between the Dublin Institute of Technology and the political representatives on the City of Dublin VEC. There is a strong linkage, as ProfessorNorton said, through that body.
I agree with the last point that, historically, the connection between politics, politicians and the VEC in Dublin has been strong and is one that is useful. If the Dublin Institute of Technology's proposal was introduced, would it not exclude the institutes of technology in Tallaght and Blanchardstown? The Dublin Institute of Technology made the argument for geographical location between the University of Dublin, DCU and the Dublin Institute of Technology but that, in effect, would exclude the institutes of technology in Tallaght and Blanchardstown. Is that not the effect of the proposal?
Professor Norton
That was not our intention. I see no reason the institutes of technology in Dublin would not be included in the same constituency.
The institutes of technology have 13 separate colleges. The Dublin Institute of Technology's argument would bar the ones in Dublin while the rest would be in the NUI panel.
Professor Norton
I think our argument was for the distinctness of the Dublin Institute of Technology which is far larger than any of the other institutes of technology, has its own degree awarding panels, which is quite distinctive, and a unique diversity compared to——
Professor Norton sounds like somebody from Trinity College and it is not going down well here.
Professor Norton
My apologies. There is a distinction and that was the original thrust of our proposals. I accept that if one wants to define it in a geographical context, it would be ridiculous to exclude the other things in the Dublin Institute of Technology.
The Dublin Institute of Technology has an immediate problem, namely, the 10,000 or so graduates since 1998 who have not been allowed to vote since the break up between Trinity College and the Dublin Institute of Technology. Is the Dublin Institute of Technology against the principle of one university constituency in which all graduates, whether of the Dublin Institute of Technology, the institutes of technology or the universities, could vote?
Professor Norton
No. The crucial issue is an inclusiveness towards higher education.
I was interested in what Professor Norton said. He felt there was a need to connect current students with current politicians. It is virtually impossible for an Irish student studying at any of our universities or colleges to get an internship in the Oireachtas. Most of the internships are through American universities. Would Professor Norton welcome internships for students in his college undertaking relevant studies as a connection with existing Members of both Houses of the Oireachtas?
Professor Norton
It is an initiative which is long overdue. There is much evidence internationally of a disenchantment with the political process. There needs to be an active cross-party engagement getting people involved in policy making in the political process and seeing the importance of it and engaging at an intellectual level in the political process. That has got to work with graduates, not just graduates of obvious subjects, those studying political, policy making or whatever, but graduates of science and technological areas. We need to have legislative and political processes that are informed by intimate knowledge of technological developments and developments in the global economy. We now have students for exchange with institutions throughout the world who have great insights. That needs to be brought to bear to ensure policy making is timely and forward looking.
Perhaps that needs to be included in legislation or in the formulation of ideas.
I wish to ask a practical question. The institute was set up in 1887 which is historic and interesting. In regard to voting, are there records of graduates? Are they authoritative and where are they housed? How far back do they go?
Professor Norton
I think we have complete records. Until 1998, our graduates were those of Trinity College, Dublin, or the University of Dublin.
I understand that.
Professor Norton
We have complete records of all those who graduated with Dublin Institute of Technology degrees since 1998. Those records are complete and up to date.
Dr. Duff
They certainly go back much further. We have all the records of all the graduates. I think Professor Norton referred specifically to those who went forward to Trinity College, but we also maintain those records ourselves.
If this reform took place, would the Dublin Institute of Technology be able to supply authoritative records and perhaps run an electoral college?
Professor Norton
Yes.
What would the Dublin Institute of Technology's view be of having two votes? There are two constituencies here and one could envisage circumstances where people would be graduates of two universities or institutes. Is the Dublin Institute of Technology saying that if somebody was so qualified, he or she would be able to vote in each of the constituencies or should he or she be confined to one vote?
Professor Norton
My view, which was not part of our submission, is that a person should have only one vote——
One person, one vote.
Professor Norton
——and should choose where he or she wishes to exercise it. I have four degrees and would not want to vote in four different elections.
Would the Dublin Institute of Technology confine nominees to graduates or would it allow anybody to be nominated to run in the election?
Professor Norton
I would take an inclusive approach because it is who is elected and not who is nominated that matters. Anyone should be able to come forward. It is for graduates to choose them. I do not think it matters whether or not they are a graduate.
Is the Dublin Institute of Technology satisfied with the level of input it has into upcoming legislation through the Department of Education and Science or through the committee system of the Houses of the Oireachtas? In some of the submissions, we heard frustration about the level of contact. Is the Dublin Institute of Technology satisfied with its ability to get its message through to politicians in both Houses of the Oireachtas?
Professor Norton
As I took over as president of the Dublin Institute of Technology on the first of this month, my direct experience of these matters——
It is very good to date.
Professor Norton
It is extremely good. I think the record would suggest that in crucially important areas, there has been the appropriate engagement but that is not to say that sometimes greater transparency about processes and a more proactive approach - perhaps on both sides - needs to be encouraged.
I think the experience on this side is that the Dublin Institute of Technology is one of the more proactive groups and has always kept its eye on the ball, so to speak, when it comes to legislation.
That comes back to the political input about which Professor Norton spoke and the fact there has been that interaction.
We are very grateful to Professor Norton and his colleagues for the thorough submission made and for coming today. We have had a lively interchange. We have learned so much even over the last few days from the communications between ourselves and the groups which have come in. I would be glad if the group would tell their colleagues that we have enjoyed the interchange and that we will reflect on the Dublin Institute of Technology's ideas when reaching our final consideration.
The witnesses withdrew.